Podcasts about jason oh

If you were managing a football team and you had someone with the skills to be a star quarterback, would you have them be a kicker?  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the pitfalls of having dual roles in your property management business. You'll Learn [01:26] How to Guarantee Your Team Will Fail [06:19] Why Dual Roles Often Do Not Work [09:17] Set Your Team Members Up for Success Quotables “It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases.”  ”Most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that.” “We make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do.” “You probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:00:02] Jason: yes.  [00:00:03] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:00:03] Jason: super sharp  [00:00:04] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:00:08] Jason: right?  [00:00:09] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:00:12] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted, and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improve pricing, increase profits, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 property management businesses, and we run the leading property management mastermind with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:01:02] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:12] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:26] Jason: Sarah, what are we talking about today?  [00:01:29] Sarah: We are going to talk about how you can almost guarantee that your team will fail.  [00:01:34] Jason: Guaranteed failure. And the method to do this- yes- we call dual role...  [00:01:40] Sarah: oh.  [00:01:41] Jason: Team members...  [00:01:41] Sarah: yes.  [00:01:42] Jason: Right? So and so, what's the scenario? What do we mean by dual role? And it's pretty common. [00:01:48] Sarah: I see it quite a bit.  [00:01:50] Sarah: Yeah. Do you see it a lot?  [00:01:51] Jason: Yeah. I mean, do you want me to explain the idea or you want to explain what you see?  [00:01:55] Jason: No, I just want to know if you see it a lot.  [00:01:56] Jason: Yeah. I see a lot of people make this mistake when hiring. I don't see it work  [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, no.  [00:02:02] Jason: And I see people try to do it, but I see a lot of failure. [00:02:06] Jason: I've seen companies with, I talked to one the other day with 6,000 doors, which was kind of trying to do a dual role. And I've seen lots of startups try to do more than just two roles. They're trying to get somebody that's like them. They're like, I just need to find the clone. I call that the clone myth, like that's the earliest stage of hiring, the biggest mistake. [00:02:26] Jason: They're like, I just need somebody that can do 10 roles, 10 things. Someone just like me as an entrepreneur that would love to work for me, unlike an entrepreneur. Right. So how about you? You've helped a lot of our clients with hiring. So what what comes up?  [00:02:41] Sarah: So usually, and let's just backtrack and say, alright, by dual role. [00:02:47] Sarah: Yeah. What we mean is, Hey, I need to hire someone and they're going to do this and that. So they're going to do, you know, sales and manage the doors. They're going to do the operations and like help me with the team and stuff and then also they're going to be a property manager or a maintenance coordinator or whatever. [00:03:08] Sarah: Yeah. So take two roles that are not the same thing and mash them together, and this is what we mean by dual role. And this situation gets aggravated significantly if those two different roles are also two different personality types.  [00:03:26] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:26] Sarah: So if you have someone who's going to do operations and function as an assistant. [00:03:32] Sarah: Okay. I mean, it's not ideal, but it's possible. Yeah. It's possible. If you have someone who's going to function as like a sales appointment setter and a closer or, and a BDM. It's possible. It's never ideal when we have a dual role, but it is possible in certain cases. [00:03:52] Sarah: Okay. Where it never works out is what all entrepreneurs think is, "oh, I'm like that. I can do that." Yeah. So somebody else should be able to do that too. Well, I can shift in and out of different roles and in and out of different personality types, and I can turn it on and off like a light switch when I need to, so then that means everybody can, and it's not true. We are very unique in that.  [00:04:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:17] Sarah: So I can also turn it on and off, like light switch when I need to get into something, I'm like, okay. Like let's go. And then when I'm done, I'm like, oh, okay. Get out of that. And I kind of shift back to my natural normal state. [00:04:30] Sarah: So if any of you guys see me ever in person. That is not my natural normal state. It's just not because it's so high energy. Especially at something like a DoorGrow Live event. Yeah. Like after DoorGrow Live, I crash for about two days, like two full days. This is true. I'm done. I am done. I sleep for like 15 hours, 16 hours straight because I've spent too much time in my opposite. [00:04:54] Sarah: Yeah. And most entrepreneurs, we can do this, we can shift and balance back and forth. The problem is that then we think that's normal. And we expect other people to be able to do that, and most people cannot do that.  [00:05:07] Jason: Yeah. The mistake that a lot of us make, like you said, is we make the mistake as entrepreneurs of assuming other people think the way we do. [00:05:15] Jason: Entrepreneurs do this all the time. They assume other people are money motivated, so they try to bonus them or compensate them with money. Most people are not actually. They assume that people are adaptable and can just wear lots of different hats and be entrepreneurial like that way, but that's also not generally the case. [00:05:34] Jason: And if they are adaptable, usually they go start their own business. So they leave, and I've seen a lot of property managers steal doors from their employers, so their employer's basically just training their next replacement.  [00:05:47] Jason: I love, I think when we don't put the dogs away during a podcast, and I'm being super sarcastic right now. [00:05:52] Sarah: Yeah. Well, I did say this was going to be a quick podcast, but the food... [00:05:56] Sarah: so maybe this is a sign we should wrap it up. Yeah, the food that you ordered is probably...  [00:06:01] Jason: Oh yeah. I ordered some food. [00:06:02] Sarah: ...being delivered right now because it's like six o'clock on a Monday right now. Which is great.  [00:06:07] Jason: They're protecting us from the food. [00:06:09] Jason: So, while we've got a chorus of dogs in the background.  [00:06:12] Sarah: They're just confirming.  [00:06:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:14] Sarah: They're like, definitely they agree with us. Don't try to hire two different people. So here's the idea.  [00:06:19] Jason: Let's break this down real quick and then we'll wrap up because the dogs are going insane, but. People do not have split personalities that you want to hire. [00:06:28] Jason: They're not two different people, and so different roles have different personality types, and it's very difficult to find somebody that can jump into very different roles and personalities that would actually enjoy those. Even you as a business owner, you probably could wear 10 different hats in your business, but you don't enjoy doing probably half of them at least. [00:06:46] Jason: If not most. Yeah. And so that's the idea. So you need to figure out what would a good property manager look like? What would a good business development person look like? They can't be both. What would a good assistant look like? What would a good operations person look like? What would a good maintenance coordinator look like? [00:07:02] Jason: They can't be multiple things typically, and I think we got to end. Okay. It's getting louder.  [00:07:08] Sarah: They're just dropping off the order. That's all. Now we have three dogs barking.  [00:07:13] Jason: It's not stopping.  [00:07:14] Sarah: So we have a big one and a medium one and a very little one.  [00:07:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:19] Sarah: But you know, that's a good example though, is so we've got three very different dogs. [00:07:25] Sarah: Like Captain is small, he's maybe 14 pounds, and Parker is pretty large. He's about 85 pounds. So would I do the same thing for the big dog that I would do for the little dog? No, I'm going to feed him differently. I'm going to, you know, get him like a different size harness, et cetera. You have to kind of think of roles in your business the same way. If you're trying to treat every role the exact same, it'll be really hard because you'll be like, I don't know, I don't understand. Like that worked with my sales guy. Why can't I just throw more money at this person and then they're going to be better? Yeah. That worked with my sales guy. [00:07:58] Sarah: Yeah, of course it did. It's not going to work in other roles. And then if you're a dual role and you're trying to constantly bounce back and forth, like, oh, I got to do the sales and I got to like do maintenance coordination and like property management work, like, oh well, which, what am I supposed to do? [00:08:14] Sarah: What do I prioritize? And then when you get busy, when you get overwhelmed and you get stressed, something is going to not get done. And it's really hard sometimes to choose, well, what am I going to sacrifice? Because both things are important, and I can tell you that 99% of the time, the thing that will be sacrificed is the thing that they just don't like doing. [00:08:35] Sarah: Yeah. So if they don't like doing the property management piece. Your delivery is going to tank. And then if they don't like doing the sales piece, they're going to focus on the delivery and your sales. You're going to have none. And you'll be wondering, well, I don't understand. Like I hired you to do both and this is why this is that pitfall. [00:08:53] Sarah: So if you want to guarantee that your team is going to fail, that your business is going to be stressed, and that your team, you are, it's almost a guaranteed like turnover of your team as well because they're not going to, they're not going to stay when they're not happy. And part of them is doing a role that they hate. [00:09:11] Sarah: The other part of them might be doing something that they really love, but part of them, for part of their day, they're doing something that they hate.  [00:09:17] Jason: Yeah. So to drive this home, it's really important that you don't put people in a position that they're going to fail. And here's a big major tip. If you have somebody that's good at selling, and you're having them waste time doing anything else, that is a really stupid way to like waste a resource. Like if somebody can make you money and bring fresh money into the business and you have them doing stupid stuff like posting notices or talking to your existing clients. You are wasting a massively valuable resource. [00:09:54] Jason: They would make you so much money they could pay for multiple other team members if you just let them only focus on business development. And so if they can sell, get them just doing that. If they're good at that. If they are good at property management, don't have them waste time dinking around trying to sell. [00:10:11] Jason: Go get somebody that can sell, that can grow your business. Right. And there's other roles, but we're using these two as an example. But yeah, dual roles work. I doesn't work.  [00:10:19] Jason: I think  [00:10:19] Sarah: that's one of the most common ones. I see.  [00:10:21] Jason: Yeah. It is pretty common.  [00:10:22] Sarah: It's either sales and operations, which like never works. [00:10:25] Sarah: Yeah. Or sales and like property management. Yeah. Those are like the two most common that I see. And the way that I explain it to people is. If you understand sports... [00:10:37] Sarah: we're using sports analogy?  [00:10:38] Sarah: We are. We're going to use a sports analogy. Okay. So on a football team...  [00:10:43] Jason: yes. [00:10:43] Sarah: If you have a star quarterback... [00:10:46] Jason: yes.  [00:10:46] Sarah: And that quarterback...  [00:10:47] Jason: super sharp  [00:10:47] Sarah: can put that ball anywhere on the field with pinpoint precision,  [00:10:52] Jason: right?  [00:10:52] Sarah: Are you going to take that quarterback and make him the kicker?  [00:10:56] Jason: No, that'd be stupid.  [00:10:57] Sarah: Or the blocker... [00:10:58] Jason: that would be really bad.  [00:10:59] Sarah: Or a defensive lineman? No way. How about the water boy?  [00:11:02] Sarah: No.  [00:11:03] Sarah: Why would you ever do any of that? Right?  [00:11:04] Sarah: So people who are like, they're like, oh my God, no. So are you going to see the star quarterback doing anything other than his job?  [00:11:13] Jason: No.  [00:11:14] Sarah: Never. Never. No.  [00:11:15] Jason: That's actually a really great analogy.  [00:11:18] Sarah: I know. I'm really smart sometimes. So there's...  [00:11:21] Jason: you're really smart all the time, and you know this.  [00:11:24] Sarah: I do know this. [00:11:24] Jason: Don't pretend you're humble. [00:11:26] Sarah: Well, I'm the most humble of all of the Zodiac signs.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah me too. I'm super humble too.  [00:11:31] Sarah: No, I'm the most humble though.  [00:11:33] Jason: You're way more humble than me.  [00:11:34] Sarah: I'm more humble than all of...  [00:11:36] Jason: you're the most humble ever.  [00:11:37] Sarah: As Scorpios, we all are. Okay, guys. Yeah. So anyway, if you're going to have your quarterback doing anything other than that, like that would just be silly. It would just be stupid. So if you were watching TV and that's what your team did while you were watching...  [00:11:52] Jason: yeah.  [00:11:52] Sarah: And it's like a playoff game. And that's what happens is you're like, why is my quarterback, what are you...? You wouldn't even believe your eyes. But then that's what you are doing in your business is you are taking your sales person, your star sales person, and you're making them do other stuff. So it works the same way. It's divide and conquer. That's like football teams do this. That's why it's not just a free for all when you get on the field, it's like, all right guys, just figure out how to, no. Yeah, they're specialists. They divide and conquer. Your business is the same thing.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's a great analogy. Cool. So it's super obvious in sports, like you've got some guy, man, he could throw it anywhere on the field. Look how accurate he is. He's not super big, but man, he can really throw it. Maybe we should have this guy just be a kicker. Yeah. That would like, that'd be crazy, but somebody's really amazing kicking the ball.  [00:12:39] Sarah: Some of you guys would lose your freaking minds if you saw that happen in a game.  [00:12:42] Jason: Right? But then you're doing it in your business! [00:12:44] Jason: You do it in your own business. You're doing it in your business. They're like, well, they could do both and maybe it'll save money and they can kind of do two things, and you wonder why the business is struggling or not growing. So we need to make strategic hires. We need to be make careful hires. [00:12:56] Jason: We need to get the right personality fit, skill fit, culture fit. We talked about the three fits on previous episodes, but you also want to make sure that personality fit, they are a really great personality fit for that particular role, and you're not trying to hire them for two. All right. Anything else we need to say about this? [00:13:11] Sarah: I don't think so. We're going to go eat.  [00:13:13] Jason: Cool. So if you have felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. Also, join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners at doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:13:34] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone.

As the property management industry continues to evolve, it's important to stay up to date on the latest innovations in technology. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David Normand from Vendoroo to talk about AI's role in the future of property management. You'll Learn [01:29] The AI Revolution [08:47] The Importance of Empathy and Human Touch [22:21] Decreasing the Cost of Maintenance Coordination [32:29] New Features Coming to Vendoroo Quotables “As any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best.” “If you're not reading articles and studying up on this, I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly.” “Empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better.” “Empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] David: If you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:00:14] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware. [00:00:18] Jason: All right. Welcome property management entrepreneurs to the DoorGrow Show or the Property Management Growth podcast. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive group coaching mastermind for residential property management entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for over a decade and a half. [00:00:39] Jason: I've brought innovative strategies and optimizations to the property management industry. I have spoken to thousands of property management companies. I've coached over 600 businesses. I've rebranded over 300 companies like Bar Rescue for property managers, cleaning up their businesses, and we would love to help coach you and support you and your growth. [00:01:01] Jason: We have innovative strategies for building out growth engines, for building out your operational challenges, for helping you figure out how to get to the next level in your business and one of the cool tools that I'm excited to showcase today with my guest here, David Norman, is Vendoroo. We've had you on the show before. [00:01:19] Jason: Welcome back David.  [00:01:20] David: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It felt like years ago, it was only about, I think eight months ago since we did this, so much has changed over the time, so it's great to be back. Yeah, it's great to be back.  [00:01:29] Jason: Good to have you. I know you're in the middle of this AI revolution, which AI is just innovating and changing so rapidly. It probably does feel like years ago, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been crazy. You guys have made a lot of changes too, so, you even changed your brand name from the last time we had you on the show. Yeah. Which was I think Tulu. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah. So why don't you get us caught up on what's going on 'cause, you know, there's been a lot.  [00:01:55] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you first of all for having me here today, Jason, and from the entire Vendoroo group of us, which, you know, the team has grown 10 x over the past eight months, which has been awesome. And I just also wanted to start in thanking everybody from what we call our client partners who have jumped in into this great unknown that is AI and is going to be like, how is this going to work in our industry? And so that's really what we've been focusing on the past eight months. You know, it's been a unbelievable journey of both failures, successes learnings and insights. And ultimately we're getting excited here at the NARPM broker owner which is in Denver to unveil Vendoroo. Like this is the coming out party. And so we're super excited if you're going to be there. We have a massive booth that we have set up that we have the ai alliance with other people that are working in the AI space, and I really hope that you guys come over and check it out. I promise this. [00:02:53] David: You'll never see a booth or a display like we have set up. At the NARPM broker owner. So.  [00:02:58] Jason: Now I want to go attend it. Yeah. Just so I can see your booth.  [00:03:01] David: So, let me put it this way. You may see the robot from the Jetsons walking around the booth walking around the NARPM broker owner, so, okay. [00:03:07] David: Yeah. Rosie? Yeah. You may see something like that. So she'll be vacuuming with her apron? Yeah. She'll be doing a little social engagement. It'll be cool. So, okay. Okay.  [00:03:17] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, so catch us up on what, like, let's get into the kind of the background and the overview for people that have never heard about Vendoroo and what you guys do and how you got into this. [00:03:29] Jason: Yeah. Give people kind of the backstory. Yeah.  [00:03:31] David: Yeah. Thank you for that. So really the backstory is that, you know, we know of this AI economy that's coming, right? And there was a few of us, you know, I've been in this industry for 18 years. You know, I've managed you know, portfolios of 40,000 doors. [00:03:47] David: I've managed them for governments. You know, I started off with our own property management. Much like you guys. We started off with 80 doors. We grew to 550 doors in four years. So it was exciting to know that technology that was coming that promised duplication because, you know, as any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best, right. [00:04:05] David: And so what we decided to do is to come together and say, Hey, if AI's coming, there's two things that we need to figure out. Number one is how is this going to help us show value in this new industry to this new generation of property owners that is here, that is coming, that has been raised in the technology world too, right? [00:04:25] David: And two, can it actually duplicate our efforts? Can it actually be an employee for us? Right? And I don't care what people are promising about ai, you don't know until you get into what we call like, you know, get into the weeds, you got to get into the trenches. And so that's what we did, right? We went out and we were the guys that grabbed the torch and we said, we are going to take all the risk. [00:04:46] David: We are going to jump into the mix. We're going to ask people to jump onto the bandwagon with us and we're going to figure this out. And oh my gosh, what an unbelievable eight months it has been in learning and insights. And I can't wait to get into all the things that we've learned about the property management industry. [00:05:01] David: But that's really what we've been focusing on here the past eight months, right? So we started off with well hey, can the AI assist the va? Can it turn them into a super va? Is that what it's going to be? And, you know, some people were like, yay. And some people were like nay, you know? And so, and you know, because that human failure still was there, right? [00:05:21] David: And you know, what happens if they left? There was that inconsistency. And then it was like, all right, well what can the AI own? Right? What can it do? What can it perfect? And you know, can AI actually be the last employee that I ever hire? Right. That's really, that's a really cool thing to do. [00:05:39] David: But the property managing community had some really specific demands that they said that if this is going to be the last employee that I've had, it has to do this. And that's what I'm excited about our new technology 'cause it's doing those things. You know? [00:05:52] Jason: Yeah. And now you guys have made some big moves. I know, like I've, I have clients that we've sent over to you and they've shared some incredible stories. Like one client, I think he had 154 units or something like under management, and he said in the first day you're of turning on Vendoroo, like it closed out like 80 something work orders. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah, like, it was crazy. Another client, they had a little more doors. They said it was like 50 something work orders were closed out in the first day of turning it on. And so, I mean, you're creating some dramatic stuff. Like this is a very different thing than what people are used to in maintenance. [00:06:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. And really what the exciting part about this, Jason, is that maintenance is actually really easy. And I know people laugh when I say that it's managing communications that is extremely difficult. Okay. Okay. Right, because you have, you know what AI told us about our industry over the last eight months is when we dove in with it and it took a step back and it said, whoa, you guys don't have a data problem here. [00:06:51] David: You guys have a emotion problem here. There's very specific categories of emotion that are in this space, right? Like, how do you build a technology that senses something? And I know this relates with property managers, 'cause I know this for myself. A property manager can walk into their office, sit down at their desk, and their spidey senses go off and they know something's wrong. [00:07:15] David: There's no screen that's telling them anything. There's no spreadsheet. They know something's off. Right. And so the AI is like, well, the statuses really don't matter that much to me based upon the feedback that I'm seeing from the property managers. Because the status and the communication all seem to be in order, but there's a disruption somewhere. [00:07:35] David: So I need to know about people's emotions. I need to understand about is the resident happy? Does the owner feel supported? Is the vendor being directed? And does the property manager believe that I can own the outcome for this? And it was really cool to start seeing its learning and understanding and picking up on these cues where, you know, people say that this is a data-driven industry. [00:07:55] David: It's really in an emotion driven industry.  [00:07:57] Jason: Oh yeah. It's a relationship and emotion industry for sure. Yeah. Yeah, big time.  [00:08:01] David: And it's really cool to see, and it's really started happening over this past last 60 days, the amount of residents, I was actually just looking at one before I jumped on here, that are like thanking the system, right? [00:08:15] David: Imagine that, like think of all of us that actually worked with the chat bot at like Verizon. I've never thanked that chatbot at Verizon for being their customer service. Right.  [00:08:25] Jason: And how do I get a representative? Representative. Representative!  [00:08:28] David: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Versus you seeing people, you know, seeing individuals saying to the, you know, saying to the Vendoroo maintenance coordinator, Hey, I really appreciate feeling supported and how fast you acted because you know, there's empathy that's inside of its law and learning. So I don't want to get too much into the details on there. But yeah, these are some of the exciting things that we're working on.  [00:08:47] Jason: I mean, empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better. [00:08:52] David: Yeah,  [00:08:52] Jason: I mean they, they've done studies. Teams, even in working in warehouses, are more productive if the team has a higher level of empathy. Yeah. And doctors perform better. Yeah. If there's a higher level of empathy, there's less malpractice suits, like empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient. [00:09:10] Jason: I coach clients to add that in during sales. Yeah. 'cause their close rate goes up dramatically. Yeah. Right. So yeah. So leveraging and like getting the AI to actually be empathetic in its communication. Yeah. When that's probably not a natural skill for a lot of maintenance coordinators to be empathetic. [00:09:26] David: It's not, it's not a natural skill for a lot of people in the maintenance industry. Right? Yes. Especially when you talk about burnout. People begin developing views of the rental community, right? Like, oh my gosh, they're calling again, and that empathy meter goes lower and lower and lower. [00:09:41] David: Yeah. As people have been in the industry longer. But isn't it great that you have an employee now that knows that, yeah, it's my duty, rain or shine, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year to always operate at the highest level of empathy? I never have a bad day. I never take a day off. [00:09:57] David: I'm never upset. I'm never short with somebody on the phone, never tired, never like, oh my gosh, Susan is calling me again. I'm going to let the phone just ring because I'm annoyed of talking to her. And it just is constantly hitting that same level of standard. And this is what's exciting to me, is that there are people that that have played around with this and have been a part of what I call the pain phase, right? [00:10:20] David: The pain phase is that understanding the way that agentic AI works, right? It's input in output. Input, output, right? The more that you're putting into it, the better the results are that you're going to get out of it, okay? Right. It's just like training an employee. So over the last eight months, what we've seen is that the community has trained this to be the level of a person that has now been working in the industry for five years. [00:10:46] David: In eight months. It's got five years of learning in eight months. Okay. Wow. In the next six to 12 months, we're probably looking at somebody that has 10 to 15 years understanding in the next six to 12 months and understand the level of type of tasks that it can do, especially getting into estimates and getting some other work. [00:11:04] David: And again, just you know, having empathy in my own life towards the people that jumped in that are like, what is this all about? Like, how does AI fail? Like, you know, there's still people that are involved and it was like this big like momentous train of like, you know, all these people were jumping on and giving ideas and people are in the loop and now it's weeding everything out and the AI stepping in and saying. [00:11:27] David: Hey, I appreciate all the input that you've given me. Thank you for all your effort. I'm now ready to step up to the plate and to own the outcome. Right. And that's what we're seeing at the NARPM show that's coming out. There's five AI tools. There's a master agent, five AI tools. And you know, I'll give you a couple of pieces here that, you know, we had feedback from our property managers like number one across the board. [00:11:50] David: A property manager said, if I'm hiring AI as my last employee, that has to work in my system. Yeah. Okay. Right. Like I don't want another, I don't want another technology. Yeah.  [00:11:59] Jason: I don't want a new system I got to get every vendor to use or a new system I got to get my team to use or figure out. We don't need another tool to make our lives more difficult. [00:12:08] Jason: No. They've got to use our stuff.  [00:12:09] David: They got to use, we have our existing stack. Yeah. So now the AI is fully integrated into all the most common PMS systems. You know, you have a cool chrome extension that you can download and there's a little yellow kangaroo right right there. And it's actually reading the work order that you're working on, and you can literally just ask it a question now and just being like, Hey, did anybody express frustration or concern on this work order? [00:12:32] David: Right? Because that's the emotion behind the status that you need to know. And it's like, yeah, two days ago Sally said that, you know, she was actually really frustrated about the multiple reschedules by this vendor. And it's like, great, that's a person I should be reaching out to and that's what I should be knowing that a status is never going to tell you. [00:12:47] David: Right? Yeah. It's in your slack, right? So if I have, if I'm on my phone, I'm talking to my employee and I'm laying in bed and I have a panic attack as a property manager, and I'm like, oh my gosh, did we take care of John's refrigerator and the office is closed? I can't get ahold of my employee. Yeah, you can. [00:13:03] David: Your employee works 24 7 now. Hey, can you give me an update on the refrigerator replacement at John's place? Yeah, it was scheduled this day. I contacted John. Everything's good to go. You know, go to sleep. You know, like, like that's the power. Full audit. Full syncing. So it's in your platform. That's really cool. [00:13:21] David: The other thing, it's got to be branded, right? This is a thing that we really learned about, like how important branding is to the community of property managers, right? Yeah. So the communications that go out have to be from your area code that's done. The emails that go out have to have like, you know, your company name and your logo on it. [00:13:39] David: The AI is doing that as well too. So that's being sent out, which is really cool. So people are feeling like, you know, that loyalty to brand is super important. And also do you know now that the AI can ask the residents to give a Google Review and we can link to the Google reviews and give you instant Google reviews to your page through the ai, which is cool, like how it's, it will know that if the success of a Google review is high on the way that the work order was done, that it's probably best to ask this person and it will send them a little thing. [00:14:11] David: Hey, can we get a feedback from you? And we link up to your Google review. And it posts that Google review to generate those 'cause we know those are super, super valuable to property managers. So that's actually going out today. That's kind of a little teaser there. That's the emails out now. [00:14:23] Jason: Nice. We'll have to get you to also connect it to our gather kudos links for clients 'cause then people can pick which review sites. So it diversifies the review profile.  [00:14:32] David: Love it. Love that. I'm going to hook you up with our guy Dotan. He's running that. He's one of our head of product. He's, actually out of Israel. [00:14:39] David: He's a amazing guy. I'd love to get you connected with him. Yeah. Cool. Let's do it. Cool. And then the biggest one too is like, I need a single point of contact. Right. And we knew that before there was a lot of people were still involved. There was a lot of oversight that was going on there, having that confusion and single point of contact. [00:14:56] David: Now it's in your phone, it's in your Slack, it's in your phone extension. It doesn't matter what's going on. You have one point of contact. It's your employee. You ask the question, get the answer, Jason, you can even ask for a change. You can even say, Hey, I want to change a vendor on a job and you'll see that the vendor gets changed for you in the system. [00:15:17] David: You can even say to your ai, and this is the big one: hey how do you triage this work order? And I want you to do this, or I want you to do that. And you just do it right through Slack or right through your PM chat and it makes the change for you. And now you have custom triage and all property managers have the ability to train their own AI for their company. [00:15:36] David: Think how cool that is. A person with 75 doors now, and the product that's being released has their own AI agent customized for their company, right? Yeah. Like, that's what happened over the last eight months, so you can see my excitement. There's been a lot of hard work in this. [00:15:54] David: Yeah, that's amazing. But this has been all the effort and a huge thank you out to everybody who's tried us, you know, even said that this wasn't for them at that point in time because those learnings went into what's going to make this product the best product in the property management space and is going to help people leverage sales and leverage efficiencies and blow their owners' minds away in ways that, that we have never thought about. [00:16:15] David: Oh yeah.  [00:16:16] Jason: Yeah. So I know like initially when you rolled this out, a lot of people were nervous about AI and you guys had kind of a human layer in between the AI and any communication Yeah, initially. Yeah. And so there was like, they had like a reps and a lot of people associated, oh, I've got this rep. [00:16:33] Jason: Yeah. You know, Steven or whatever is my rep or Pedro and I've got Pedro and like, oh no, what if Pedro leaves? And they were associating with that while the AI is really doing the crux of the work. Right. And so you guys have shifted away from even that now the AI is directly communicating with people. [00:16:52] Jason: Correct? Yeah.  [00:16:53] David: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, definitely, so in the beginning there was like, we all had like lack of trust. We believed what it was going to do, but it was like we had a ton of people still trying, like, you know, using qualified VAs, training them. Like, you know, like, you know, if it fails, like, you know, you have to have a person stepped in and so let's talk about that. [00:17:12] David: So, you know, it was definitely that human layer. And let's talk about where we're at today. It is very clear to us, and the one thing that separates us from everybody is we still believe that humans are super important in this process. Okay? Yeah. And where humans are very important in this process are going to be when the AI says, Hey, I need you to make a phone call to this person for me, right? [00:17:35] David: Hey, I've reached out to this vendor three times and they haven't responded yet. I need you to give a phone call to see what's going on. Right? Hey, I need you to recruit a vendor for me. I need you to reach out and do a recruitment for the vendor. For me. Hey, this owner is asking questions about this estimate. [00:17:51] David: I need you to give a call for me. So the AI is basically able, on a standard work order, the AI can handle 95% of the workflow, no problem. Work order comes in, gets assigned to the resident. It gets out to the vendor. It's under the NTE not to exceed. It's great. The work gets done, the resident uploads its photos, the AI says to the resident, are you happy? [00:18:14] David: Everyone's good. It closes the work order out. Cool. Right. And then if a human...  [00:18:19] Jason: and how is it communicating with the tenant and with the vendor typically? [00:18:24] David: Yep. So, it's very clear that and this isn't a surprise to anybody. Everybody loves text messages, right? Yeah. I mean, that's just, it's just what it is. [00:18:32] David: You literally, like, people will get a phone call and they won't pick up and the text will come back and like text back. Yeah, text me. What do you need? Yeah. Text me here. But, so here's the things that people don't see behind the scenes that we'll talk about. So the complexity that went into. [00:18:51] David: Mapping out how to allow vendors... so a vendor could have like 20 jobs, right? And we don't want to send him like a code that he has to text for every work order so that it links to the right work order. Like what guy wants to do that? Okay. Like that's not how he works. So we figured out how to allow a vendor through AI just to use his regular phone and text anything about this thing. And it's understanding it and it's mapping it, it's routing it to all those work orders because we knew that in order for this to be the last employee somebody would have to handle, it also means that the vendor has to be happy and the same for the resident. [00:19:30] David: They can just text that they have multiple work orders. It understands what work order it's going to. If it's not quite sure, I would ask them, Hey, is this question about this work order? And they say, yeah. And so there's not like, again, codes and links and things that they have to do. It has to be seamless if they're working with a person. [00:19:46] David: So yeah, text message is massive. Email is second, and then phone is third for sure.  [00:19:51] Jason: Got it. So is your AI system calling people yet or you or telling the property manager to make the phone call?  [00:19:58] David: Yeah. People are okay with. If they're calling in like our new front desk agent, which if a person calls in and they want to get information about a listing or if they want to get information about a work order or something like that, or, you know, they're okay with getting that type of information. [00:20:13] David: Yeah. But they are, it is very clear that they are not okay with AI calling them when they're asking for an update on a work order like that. Like that line in the sand very clear. Yeah. And so we have people on on the team. That are constantly monitoring into ai, giving feedback, hitting improvement. [00:20:31] David: I want everybody to know there is not a work order that is taking place that is not touched by a human at least twice.  [00:20:38] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:39] David: Okay. Right.  [00:20:40] Jason: So there's a little, there's some oversight there. There there's, you're watching this, there are humans involved  [00:20:45] David: And then the ai will when it hits certain fail points, right? [00:20:51] David: It then escalates those things up to what we call the human in the loop, right? So there's an AI assistant, we there's people now that we're training a whole new generation of people that are no longer going to be maintenance coordinators. They're AI assistants now, right? And so when the AI says, Hey, this work order is not going down the path that I think it should go to be successful. [00:21:12] David: I'm escalating this up to a human, and so now as a property manager, not only am I getting this AI agent workflow that's standardizing the empathy and the workflows and all the stuff that we talked about in the communications, I also now get a fractional employee that when the AI says, Hey, I need help, I already have an employee that it can reach out to that can make that phone call or call the vendor. [00:21:36] David: But it's also monitoring the AI for me on top of it. So yes, there is, and that's one of the big thing that separates us apart is that the platform comes with what we call a human in the loop, an expert in the loop and so we're training the first generation of AI assistants in the property management industry. [00:21:55] David: Yep.  [00:21:56] Jason: Got it. So the AI maintenance coordinator. Has human assistance. Yep. Underneath it.  [00:22:02] David: And before it was the other way around where Yeah. The AI was assisting the human right. And now the humans are assisting the ai. That's what's happened in the last...  [00:22:11] Jason: that may be the future of all of our roles. [00:22:12] Jason: So,  [00:22:13] David: If you're not reading articles and studying up on this I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly. Yeah. Learn how to write prompts. I'll tell everybody right now. Yes.  [00:22:21] Jason: Yeah. Interesting. So, now what about this, you know, there's the uncanny, you know, sort of stage where people get a little bit nervous about AI and what do they call it? The uncanny valley or something like this, or right where it gets, it's so close to human that it becomes creepy. And there's some people that have fear about this, that are concerned. You're going to have a lot of late, you know, adopters that are like resistant. "I'll never do ai." [00:22:49] Jason: What would you say to somebody when you get on a sales call and they're like, well, I'm really nervous about this AI stuff, you know, and they just, they don't get it.  [00:22:57] David: Yeah.  [00:22:58] Jason: I'm sure there's people listening right now. They're like, oh man, AI is going to kill us all and it's going to take over the world and it's going to take our jobs. [00:23:05] Jason: And they think it's evil.  [00:23:06] David: Yeah. Yeah. I, and you know, I really want to hear that fear and I want to like, again, have empathy towards that. 'cause I do understand that fear of change causes people to get... Change in general. Yes. Right. It's like, whoa, I like everything the way it's going to be. Right. And we are historically in one of those phases of like, you know, the industrial revolution, the renaissance, like the automobile from horse. [00:23:34] David: Like, this is what is taking place. This is, this will be written down in history. It's massive change. It's a massive change. Massive. So what I would say to them, and not to, not from a way of fear. But to inspire them is there are a lot of hungry entrepreneurs out there that are embracing this head on. [00:23:57] David: Yeah. That are pushing the boundaries and the limits to be able to bring insights and customer service to their clients at a much higher level. And if you want to compete in this new AI economy. I would definitely encourage you to understand and get in and start investing in yourself now. But understand that investing in AI means having some pain threshold. [00:24:21] David: Like you got to get in, like you, you need to be able to give the feedback. You need to understand that if it falls short, do you have to be able to give it the time and the energy and the reward and the payoff of what I'm seeing for property managers who've embraced that when they're sitting there and they're going, I don't touch maintenance at all anymore. Yeah, it's wild. Right? And those are the people that in the beginning of this relationship, and there's a few that come to my head, are the ones that were sending me emails constantly saying, David, this is failing me. I believe in this, but this is failing me. And as my technology partner, I know that you're going to help us get this better. [00:24:58] David: And there is, you know, I have this word down that struggle equals great con conversation, right? Like, and so they had a struggle and that opened up a great conversation and because of that, their technology and the technology is getting better. So yeah, I think that from a personal point of view in this industry, one thing that I want to solve with AI is I think that we can all say that over the past 15 years, we've probably yelled at a lot of vendors or yelled at a lot of VAs or yelled at a lot of people. Let's start yelling at the ai. And then hopefully that the AI will actually eliminate the need for us to ever have to yell at anybody again because it knows us. [00:25:36] David: Yeah. It never fails us.  [00:25:38] Jason: You know? It really is amazing. I mean, your company is creating freedom for the business owner from being involved in maintenance. Yeah. Really?  [00:25:46] David: Yeah.  [00:25:47] Jason: And it just, and they get used to that pretty quickly. Like maintenance is just running and they're like, yeah. It frees up so much head space for them to focus on growth. [00:25:56] Jason: It gives them a whole bunch of like just greater capacity. Yeah. So they feel like, yeah, we could handle adding any number of doors now and we know we can still fulfill and do a good job.  [00:26:07] David: Yeah. Fixed cost scaling. Right? That's a term that we came up with is now that you know that I have a price per door that will cover all my maintenance. So if I went in and brought on 75 doors, I know that I don't have to go out and hire another employee. The system just grows with it and I know exactly what my margin is for all those doors. Right. And as we know previous, before fixed cost scaling a property managers is like, I have enough people. [00:26:32] David: I don't have enough people. Someone quit, someone didn't quit. My profit margins are good. My profit margins are bad. Yeah. And now with these AI tools. You know, you have your front desk employee, you have your maintenance coordinator, you have these fixed cost scales, and now somebody calls you up and says, Hey, I want you to take on 25 doors, and you're like, I have the resource resources for maintenance, which is, we know is 80% of the workload already. I don't have to go out and hire another maintenance coordinator 'cause the system just grows with me, which is cool.  [00:27:00] Jason: So one of the things you shared at DoorGrow Live and you're our top sponsor for the upcoming... Can't wait for DoorGrow Live, can't wait to, so we're really excited to have you back so. [00:27:10] Jason: Everybody make sure you're at DoorGrow Live if you want. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And we're bringing, we're going to be showcasing, innovating pricing structures that are different than how property managers have typically historically priced, that allow you to lower your operational costs and close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:27:30] Jason: We're, we'll be showcasing a three tier hybrid pricing model that we've innovated here at DoorGrow, and we've got clients using it. It's been a game changer. We're going to be sharing other cool things about the future hiring systems, et cetera. Right. So you guys will also be there showcasing the future. [00:27:46] Jason: One of the things you shared previously that really kind of struck me as you showed, you did some research and you showed the typical cost. Per unit that most companies had just to cover and deal with maintenance. Yeah. And and then what you were able to get it down to.  [00:28:03] David: Yeah.  [00:28:04] Jason: And that alone was just like a bit of a mind blowing. [00:28:07] Jason: Could you just share a little bit of numbers here?  [00:28:09] David: Yeah. So one of the first things that we had to do when we started way back in the day is figure out well. Like, like what's the impact of AI going to be us from like a cost perspective, right? Is it a huge change? And so we went out on a big survey mission and we were surveying property managers and asking them, what's your cost per door for managing maintenance? [00:28:30] David: How much do you spend every door to manage maintenance? Now the first thing is less than 1% of property managers knew what that cost was. Sure.  [00:28:37] Jason: Oh, sure. Right. Because, but then they got to figure out, oh, we got a maintenance coordinator and we've got these people doing phone calls and they cost this, and yeah, it's complicated. [00:28:45] David: It's complicated. So we built a calculator. Okay. And then people could start adding in that information out into the calculator, and the average person was around $13 and 50 cents a door.  [00:28:56] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:28:57] David: Wow. Right, right. So that was where the average person was, somewhere in the low twenties. Yeah. [00:29:01] David: And others were actually pretty good. Like, I'd say like, you know, some of the good ones that we saw were maybe around like, you know, 10, $11 a door or something along that line.  [00:29:09] Jason: They probably had a large portfolio would be my guess.  [00:29:12] David: Yeah. And also I think a lot of it's just like, you know, I don't know if they were still accounting for all their software and everything that they had. [00:29:19] David: Maybe they're not factoring everything. Yeah. No, I think if we really dug in, it'd be different. So now we know that, you know, the base package of what people are getting in. The average cost of what people are paying for 24 7 services that's emergencies around the clock is about $7 and 50 cents a door, right? [00:29:37] David: So right off the bat in AI's first swing, it said we cut the cost in half. Yeah. Okay. Right. So 50% reduction. I mean, to me as an owner, a 50% reduction in cost. That's like. You know, alarms and celebration going off, you know? For sure. And then, yeah.  [00:29:55] Jason: And that's, if everything just stayed the same, like it was still the same level of quality, cutting in half would be a solid win right there. [00:30:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:30:03] David: Yeah. That's just like status quo stuff. And now what, with the release of the new Vendoroo product that, that's actually being announced here today. The email's going out to all of our existing clients of all the new features that are coming out now, we're starting to see that. You know that quality is now increasing to where if you were to go out and hire that person, you may have to be spending, you know, 55,000 or $65,000 a year. [00:30:29] David: Right? So now it's like saying, okay, if we can get as good as what these people are using for their VAs right, and we know what that cost is, and they're saying that's, you know, that's what their factors is. Well, what happens in the next six to 12 months when this is a seasoned person that you would've to pay $85,000 a year to? [00:30:45] David: Right. Yeah. And right, because they have knowledge of. Estimates and knowledge of vendor routing and knowledge of, you know, it can handle...  [00:30:53] Jason: you've invested so much time into them, so much attention. They know your properties and know your portfolio. They know the vendors. Like you've invested so much into this person that now they sort of have you by the balls so that they're like, Hey, I want 80 k or I walk.  [00:31:06] David: Yeah.  [00:31:06] Jason: You're like, you've got to come up with it.  [00:31:08] David: Yeah.  [00:31:09] Jason: Right. You've got to do it.  [00:31:10] David: Yeah.  [00:31:10] Jason: And you know, because that's not easy to create. And a lot of people, in order to have a good maintenance coordinator, they need a veteran of the industry. Veteran of industry. [00:31:19] Jason: They need somebody that's been doing this a long time.  [00:31:21] David: Yeah.  [00:31:22] Jason: And that's really hard to find.  [00:31:24] David: Yes. It's extremely hard to find as we know. One of the things that I think that we're doing for this industry is we're actually preserving knowledge that I don't think is necessary getting passed down. [00:31:33] David: Yeah. You know, there's a lot less people that I think are as handy as they once were in the Americas and so we have a lot of that knowledge. Like, you know, we know that the average age of an electrician is in the sixties, the average age of a plumber's in the sixties. And these guys, you know, they have wealth of knowledge that it can troubleshoot anything that's going on in a house. [00:31:54] David: And so to be able to try to preserve some of that, so maybe if a person does come in, you know, maybe there's some knowledge sharing along the lines. But let's take it even in another step forward Jason that in the future, you know, the AI is going to know the location of the hot water tank in that house. [00:32:10] David: It's going to then add it automatically to the system, like. It's going to know more knowledge than they will because it's going to have maps of every single property that's all currently sitting inside of, you know, that maintenance coordinator's head, right? And so it's going to, it's going to actually know more than them, you know. [00:32:26] Jason: Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. It's the future. Cool. Well, you're rolling out a bunch of new features. You're announcing these today. You've told me a little bit, but why don't you tell the listeners what's changing, what's new, what innovations have come out? What are you guys launching? [00:32:41] David: Yeah. Exciting. Yeah. So, the biggest one I think is, which is the most exciting is, is Resiroo, which is the first one that actually handles all the communications with the resident and does the triage and troubleshooting. First one of what are you talking about? So we have our products. [00:32:57] David: So you have these AI tools, right? These agents. Right.  [00:33:00] Jason: And so, you know, every, so think of them like different sort of people?  [00:33:04] David: Skill sets. Yeah. Different person. Okay. Exactly. And so that's when you come and see our display at the NARPM conference, you'll actually will see these five agents kind of in their work desk and in their environments, kind of cool. [00:33:15] David: Okay. Able to see them right. So the coolest part about that one is we're doing a major product you know, update on that for not only the knowledge base, but we're actually turning that over to the company. We were talking about this a little bit before, and now they own their own AI agent and they can customize it into how they want it to ask questions or the type of questions and the mindsets when it's triaging stuff. [00:33:41] David: Triaging work orders for their portfolio. Like super cool. So fully customizable to your company, right?  [00:33:49] Jason: So now sometimes the more humans get involved, the more they mess stuff up.  [00:33:54] David: Yes. We make sure they don't mess it up. So everyone's going to learn how to write prompts and they'll submit it into us. [00:33:59] David: And we have a great team of AI engineers that when that knowledge base is written or what they're doing. We will ensure that it is put in so that it actually produces the desire outcome, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's a very exciting one. The second one that I'm that I think is so cool, do you know that only 10% of all estimates get approved by the owner without one or multiple questions? [00:34:23] David: Because owners really struggle with trust when it comes to estimates. Like 10%. Like, that's a really bad number, I felt as the industry that owners only believe us one out of 10 times. Like that's the way I took that. Yeah. Right. And so, Owneroo is what I coined inside, is the estimate of the future. [00:34:41] David: That really was looking in understanding like what was, what questions was the owner asking when they were rejecting a bid that that we could proactively ask the answer for them to help guide them to understanding the value in this estimate that they're looking at in historical context of the property. [00:35:00] David: How many other people have experienced this issue? Like, like there's a whole bunch of factors that should go into an estimate and an estimate should no longer be like, here's a cost from Frank. Right? Like, like that was like, like that was...  [00:35:14] Jason: here's what Frank said it is. Yeah. Like that was like from the 1940s. [00:35:17] Jason: That's good. How do I trust that?  [00:35:18] David: How do I trust that? That was from the forties and we're still...  [00:35:21] Jason: how much went into this decision? Was this just out of the blue, like pulled out of your ass or is this like legit?  [00:35:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. What's the, you know, we live in a data-driven world, so what's the intellect behind this estimate? [00:35:33] David: And so I'm really excited about Owneroo, which is going to be the new standard for the way the estimates are created. We have the front desk agent which is coming out. So, that one is going to handle phone calls that are coming in, be able to talk about available listings, actual general questions about leases route phone calls over to property managers for you. [00:35:54] David: So again. Very human-like interaction, great AI voice. Actually. We feel it's going to be the best in the industry. So a person's calling in, just like they're calling your office able to handle all those front desk things. We, we have the PM chat, which is now the employee which is fully integrated into all of your systems. [00:36:14] David: It's in Slack. That's your employee that you get to talk to. We believe that if you're going to hire somebody, they should be inside of your communication channels. You have the Google Chrome extension that it's on right inside your AppFolio or your buildium or your Rentvine software that you can ask and talk to it. [00:36:31] David: So, yeah, so we have a lot of exciting products that have come out. And then of course the backbone of all of them in the middle is Vendoroo, which handles all the scheduling, all the communications. You know, a resident asks for an update, responds to them, an owner asks for an update, it responds to them. [00:36:48] David: And you know, it handles actually the body of the work order. So you have those five tools, we believe are what the property management industry said. If you are going to give me an employee, this is what the employee has to be. This is what makes up that employee. So we say that these tools, these agents were actually built by the property management industry. [00:37:08] David: And that excites me because if you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:37:25] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware.  [00:37:29] Jason: Yeah. So you guys connect with Slack. They can communicate through Slack, but it slack's a paid tool. Have you guys considered Telegram? I love Telegram Messenger.  [00:37:37] Jason: Alright. Could you do that? Write it down. Telegram Messenger is like the iMessage tool that works on every device. [00:37:44] Jason: It's free. It's one of the most secure, it's not owned or controlled by Facebook. Like, WhatsApp, like, yeah. But WhatsApp might be a close second, but we use Telegram internally, so I love Telegram.  [00:37:58] David: We'll definitely take that into, into consideration for sure. Yeah, check it  [00:38:02] Jason: out. Because I, what I love is the voice message feature and I can just listen to my team and others at like high speed, but internal communications and it's free for everybody, which is great. [00:38:12] Jason: So, yeah.  [00:38:13] David: Yeah. I think a lot, for a lot of people it was like you know, who was Vendoroo in the beginning and Vendoroo was like the team of like people that were trying to figure out like how is AI going to work in this industry? [00:38:26] David: How is it going to solve the needs of our property management partners? And this is why I say to everybody, if you thought about Vendoroo, if you came in and the experience wasn't great with Vendoroo, if you're one of our existing clients that has been with us and you're and you're still moving forward, and we thank you so much for your dedication to this, the Vendoroo product, everything that we've done, everything that we worked at is being showcased at the NARPM broker owner. The email's going out today. This is who Vendoroo is. We are a team that is a technology partner for the property management industry that is helping building meaningful AI tools, specifically by demand, by our industry to help us show value and to preserve this great industry. [00:39:09] David: For the future in this new AI economy, right? Like we need to step up. We have clients that are adding doors left and right because they're showing their clients that they use an AI maintenance system and their clients are like, this is what I expect from a property management in this community. [00:39:24] David: Right? And again, Owneroo, that estimate, we believe that in the future. Like, like owners are going to say like, I'm not approving an estimate unless it's like the estimate of the future, right? Like, like that's the new standard. So you got to know what the new standards are and you got to get technology that are going to help you compete with those new standards that will be in your community and are will be in your community in the next week, the next two weeks. [00:39:46] David: And definitely some really cool products in the next six months.  [00:39:49] Jason: All right. Well, yeah, I'm really excited to see what you guys have been able to create so far. So yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. All right. Well David, it's been awesome having you on the show. Sounds like you guys are really innovating the future. Everybody come to DoorGrow Live. David, are you going to be at that one? I will be there. All right, so you can come meet David in person. [00:40:08] Jason: We've got some amazing people that are going to be at this. We've got technology people. There's a gentleman there, one of the vendors they created another really cool tool, but he had a hundred million dollars exit, you know, in a previous business, like there's really amazing entrepreneurs and people at this event, so come to DoorGrow Live, get your tickets, and if you do, we have just decided that we're going to give out to anybody that registers. [00:40:34] Jason: You can pick from one of our free bonuses that are well worth the price of the ticket. Or coming or anything in and of itself, including our pricing secrets training that goes over a three tier hybrid pricing model or our sales secrets training, which goes over how we're helping property managers crush it and closing more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:40:55] Jason: And reputation secrets, which are helping our clients get way more positive reviews by leveraging the psychology and the law of reciprocity and getting the majority of their tenants in order to give them positive feedback online. Maybe some others. So you'll be able to pick from these bonuses one of these that you might like and that's our free, most incredible free gift ever that we'll give to each person that registers for DoorGrow Live. [00:41:19] Jason: So.  [00:41:20] David: Cool. Awesome man. Always great to see you. Looking forward to seeing you at DoorGrow Live and love that you guys are working on pricing because AI is going to make people think different about pricing. It's going to be way more efficient, so you guys are ahead of the curve on that. Great job, Jason. [00:41:33] Jason: Awesome. All right, so how can they check out Vendoroo, David?  [00:41:36] David: Just visit, Vendoroo.ai, go to the website, request a demo with one of our great sales reps, and yeah they'd love to help you out. See all the new products, see how far it's come. And again, we thank everybody from the bottom of our hearts for all their effort, people who've tried us out. [00:41:52] David: Come back and see what you built and yeah. Come check us out at Vendoroo.  [00:41:57] Jason: Got it. Go check out Vendoroo, it's vendor. If you know how to spell that, V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O dot A-I, go check it out. All right? And if you're a property management entrepreneur, you want to add doors, you want to make your business scalable, you want to get out of the day to day, you want to increase the capacity so your company could easily handle another 200 plus doors without having to make any significant systems changes, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We will help you figure it out. So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

As property managers, you know how important communication is. Building solid relationships and creating trust is crucial in the industry, especially when trying to bring on new clients and doors. In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Sam Wakefield from Close it Now to talk about how you can level up your sales game to close more deals at a higher price point. You'll Learn [00:54] Vendor and Property Manager Relationships [09:43] Why You Attract Cheapo Clients [15:33] Building Trust in Sales [21:14] Shifting Perception: It's Not A, It's B [27:43] Learning to Improve Your Sales at DoorGrow Live 2025 Quotables “Truly all that sells is just communication.” “The second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are.” “If we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner.” “As business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sam: A lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:00:07] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and it's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:00:14] Jason: All right. I am trying a new platform today. This is Jason Hull and I am a property management growth expert. If you're not familiar with me, I help grow and scale property management companies and I am really good at that. And so our company's DoorGrow and we are the world leaders of growing and scaling property management businesses. [00:00:35] Jason: I've helped thousands of property managers do that. And today my guest is Sam Wakefield. Hanging out here with Sam. Sam, welcome to the show.  [00:00:44] Sam: Thanks for having me on, man. I'm glad to be here.  [00:00:46] Jason: Hey, good to have you. So, I'm really excited to get into this. We had some really nice dialogue back and forth. You coach. [00:00:54] Jason: Well, I'll let you tell. What group, category of people do you coach and you help with them with sales and closing more deals, so.  [00:01:01] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we do sales training and basically sales systems, whole operation systems within companies, but mostly sales focused for home services. So everything from HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and then even outside of that. Garage doors, or you name it. If someone improves a home, then we help the communication side of all of those companies.  [00:01:27] Jason: Got it. So in my industry, property management people would call those vendors. That's usually what they call them. They're like, "these are the vendors." And so we thought it was fun. I went on your podcast, we had this really fun dialogue. [00:01:39] Jason: I highly recommend you go check out Sam's episode with Jason Hull and go check that out. We were going back and forth because we had done a survey each to our audiences, like what's frustrating about HVAC companies and what's frustrating about property management companies. Right. And just seeing the disconnect that existed there. [00:01:56] Jason: Which was interesting. So, before we get into this, I want to read a quick message from our sponsor. This episode's sponsored by KRS SmartBooks. Do you have properties manage, and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you, with 15 plus years of real estate knowhow and skills in AppFolio, Yardi, and more imagine monthly reports magically appearing, and zero accounting stress. Sound good? Head to krsbooks.com to book your free discovery call, integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance, that's KRS SmartBooks, and that's K as in Kansas, R as in Rogers, S as in Sam. Sam. All right, so cool. Now let's get into this. [00:02:45] Jason: So we're going to talk about closing deals, but why don't you give us my audience a little bit of background. How did you get into sales and then starting your own company, helping people with sales, and like, how'd you how did Close it Now come to be?  [00:03:00] Sam: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for that question. So, I've spent almost 20 years now in home services. [00:03:05] Sam: Most of my time has been in HVAC. I've done solar. I've done a lot of different trades over the years and, you know, so I launched the Close it Now company in 2019 because I really just recognized a place where there was not a lot of modern training because truly all that sells is just communication. [00:03:26] Sam: You know, it's how do we communicate clearer and in a way where we can educate so somebody can understand, one, what we're talking about, and two, why they should care and how it's going to make a difference in their life. So at the essence of that, so I was looking for some more modern training for my people at my company that I had at the time, and I didn't find anything out there. [00:03:48] Sam: So I just said, well, now we have a space for, you know, I have communication skills. I can train people. So that's when I launched the company in 2019 and so much of my career built up to that point of, and specifically how it affects here and why I'm here today. You know, I've worked with so many property management companies and individuals across 20 years of doing this. Yeah. So I've definitely learned a lot of best practices and a lot of the things not to do, you know? Got it. I all own my mistakes as well as, you know, coming across maybe property managers that I wouldn't work with again. Right. Yeah. So from all of that experience, you know, I started the training company, so I work with those home service companies to communicate better. [00:04:33] Sam: You know, a lot of it is, you know, of course, working directly with homeowners. But also there's a huge portion of all of those companies that, you know, rely on it and need property management companies to, you know, really help them stay in business and in turn they can turn around and, you know, help those property management companies to efficiently take care of properties. [00:04:58] Sam: But there's always seems to be this kind of struggle of, you know, that back and forth. So that's obviously why we're here today is a big part of that. But that's some of my history. I've been doing it 20 years. I started Close it Now six years or in, coming up on... yeah, April this year, next month is six years anniversary. [00:05:16] Sam: Nice. Of the company. And it's been a fun ride and we've definitely helped lots and lots of organizations to you know, to grow in a way.  [00:05:24] Jason: You're helping them close it now. All right. Yeah. Got it. All right. So you're just, you're helping these vendors close more deals, right? [00:05:31] Jason: So, property managers, I think would love to hear. You're on the other side of this relationship between property managers and vendors. What have you seen and what's the general feedback that you're noticing of the property management industry? What's kind of the vendor's perspective? [00:05:46] Jason: Because I know property managers, they get frustrated with vendors, right? They're like, "oh, the vendors like say you need something when you don't and like they don't like, it's difficult to reach them or this or whatever." Right. What are some of the complaints and gripes about property management companies? [00:06:03] Sam: Yeah. Complaints and gripes about property management companies. One of the big ones is, a lot of it is kind of the same thing is lack of communication. Okay. That's always one of the biggest complaints that comes up is, you know, we will get, you know, say someone, a property manager will call in for us to go evaluate a property. [00:06:21] Sam: We'll take an air conditioning issue or something like that, so we'll show up and then we're trying to call ahead. There's no clear information was given on who to call ahead to. Then we show up to the appointment, maybe the tenant's there, maybe not. A lot of times they're not there. [00:06:36] Sam: Okay. Then we can get ahold of the property manager to even get in the place. So now we're like dancing around in the circle of, okay, who do we contact? You get frustrated, move on to the next call, then the property manager calls and "Well, why'd you leave? Somebody was there." [00:06:50] Sam: Well, nobody was there. And so all of this just seems to happen very often. [00:06:55] Sam: Too often. Yeah. So it creates a stereotype. When the stereotype is created, that means of course there's a reason for it. Yeah. And so this is one of the big ones is the lack of communication. And I know that I've heard that the other direction as well. But so that's one of the things I hear the most. [00:07:11] Jason: Yeah. Got it. Yeah, so I'm sure when a vendor finds a property manager that does communicate effectively that there's clarity in that communication happening, and they've got good systems in place. The tenant's there, the tenant understands what's going on. Everybody's informed. Then those can be really great relationships to have. [00:07:34] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. Those are, you know, the last the last organization I was at, I was with them, I was a sales manager and trainer for six years there. And I went through about 18 different property management companies to find two to three that were worth working with. Wow. And that was, you know, just sadly. We were always open to when a property management company came to us and we're like, "Hey, we, you know, we need you to do some work. We're looking for a new vendor." We're like, "sure. Absolutely. We'll try you out as well as you're trying us out." Right. But sadly, you know, the two or three that we did find great relationships with. They were fantastic relationships because yeah, we, you know, part of my ethics is our team was like, we will show up on time no matter what. [00:08:19] Sam: Right? We always do what we say. We will never, you know, recommend something that's not verifiable from our, you know, from our testing. We're not going to just guess at this because we're not guessing with anybody's, you know? Yeah. Investment. And at the same time when we, you know, say we're going to do the work, we do the work, and we show up to do the work, we say we're going to. [00:08:43] Sam: So that was my ethics statement I always led with. And then basically I would ask the property management company, can I expect the same thing from you guys? Right? And sure enough, the second that we met in the middle and said, yes, this is how we want to do business, those relationships were always the very best ones because sure, were we a few more dollars than the other contractor down the street? Sure. Yes. But we showed up when we said we were going to and we did the right work right the first time. And so, right. That's a big part of that disconnect, I think, is it seems like so many you know, a lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:09:22] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and. It's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:09:30] Jason: You know, property managers have the same sort of problem is that a lot of people that are looking for a property manager are just looking for the cheapest price. [00:09:38] Jason: And they hate that. They're like, "we're not all the same." Right. So I, yeah, I think it's really important. I think this is dictated by the morals, the ethics, and the values of the business owner. It's always a top down thing. And so if the business owner is a cheapo, they attract cheapo clients and they deal with vendors through this cheapo lens, and this is where there's going to be a lot of mess and a lot of communication issues, and a lot of times the business owner, and this goes for any business and any industry, has a blind spot to the fact that they're cheap. But they're, you know, you're a cheapo if you're the person that's always looking for the stupid coupon code every time you buy everything online, you're always like hunting for that like. I don't have time to do that. [00:10:21] Jason: Like that's a massive waste of my time to go find, save 10% on some stupid a hundred dollars thing online, right? Right. Like, Ooh, I'm searching around. Right. Oh, I saved $10 even though I could have made a hundred thousand dollars. Like if I just like built something awesome, right? So I think there's a mindset issue is that these property managers or vendor business owners are not valuing their time enough. [00:10:45] Jason: If you value your time, you value other people's time. You then show up on time. You then like try to make sure, like your schedule is tight, you want to make sure your schedule is full. Like you, because you value your time and you feel that it's important. And if you really value your time enough as a person, you get things like assistance. [00:11:03] Jason: You get team members, like you get support because your time is so valuable that you want to go buy other people's time because it's less valuable than your time. Right, and this is how we scale our businesses over time is we are buying other people's time that are like they're willing to trade and give up their life chunks of their life for money. [00:11:24] Jason: And as business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable. And so I think there's a mindset thing that we have to not be cheap. We have to operate with integrity, and then our team members need to have these values instilled in them, and if we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner. [00:11:45] Jason: And if we don't build the right culture, we then don't have longevity in our business. We don't get return business, we don't get return clients. We don't get to have that really good vendor to continue to work with. We don't get to have that property owner continue to want to work with us, right? [00:12:00] Jason: Because we have showcased that we are not on top of things, or that we don't have the right values or that we don't have healthy mindset. And so I feel like. At the foundation of everything. It always comes back to mindset. A lot of times  [00:12:13] Sam: I a hundred percent agree with that. It, you know, it's funny that you're kind of started this conversation going down this path. [00:12:19] Sam: This is something that's been a very basically a soapbox for me, a big hot button. Yeah. You know, when I'm coaching... [00:12:26] Sam: jump on that soapbox, Sam. Let's go.  [00:12:27] Sam: Yeah. When I'm coaching and training people lately, especially at this last week especially... yeah. You know, I'm training people with sales and that type of focus, and they, of course, people always come to me, "Hey, how do I overcome these sales objections?" [00:12:43] Sam: You know, somebody says, "I want to get three bids, or somebody says, your price is too high, I want to shop around, or I need to think about it." Yeah. And instead of just going straight to, "well, here's the word track and how to handle these objections." Yeah. We always start with: anytime that you find a trend in your life, [00:13:00] Sam: so if you're getting the same consistent objection, say somebody's getting every single time they get to the end of their appointment and the homeowner or whoever they're talking to says, "I want to think about it." It's like the second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are. [00:13:17] Sam: I would be willing to bet that person does the same thing when they shop. So then no wonder you're getting every single one of your clients is telling you, "I want to think about it." Or if when you shop, do you ask for say, "oh, I've got to get some three bids on this thing. I got to look around." Yeah. Well, no wonder the people you're selling to always have to get three bids because we attract who we are. Yeah. And it starts right here in the mind. And it's incredible how that works.  [00:13:43] Jason: Yeah. because if we're anxious, if we have that energetic sort of anxiety of that, like things are, it's expensive, and we go into that trying to sell it to somebody. Then they can feel that and we present it differently. And so we're like, "here's the price." And like, yeah, and it's worth it. And they can just, there's so many little subtle clues they pick up on that, Hey, this seems a little high. And because sometimes like if you're presenting to somebody and they're not what I call a cheapo, there's three types of buyers, cheapos, normals, and premiums I call them. [00:14:16] Jason: And normals are like, you typically like 60%. They're like the majority, 61%. The smallest group are usually the premium buyers, supposedly. But the idea is this: if you're a premium buyer and I present a price and I'm not even going to like flinch telling you about it, I'm like, "yeah, we've got this and this is what it costs and this," and they're going to go, "oh, this person feels really confident." [00:14:36] Jason: And it's just energetically how we present it. There's no like, "Hey, I'm trying to prep you for this price, you know, reveal because it's going to hurt a little bit." Right. Or if they just have the confidence and they know they're expensive, they might even just say, "Hey, we're one of the most expensive, but we're also one of the best. Let me tell you about your options." Right? So maybe they start with a pre-frame like that, but either way, they have this confidence that they know they have value and that it's worth it, and then they present it like that, then people would go, oh, okay, but if you have that anxiety deep down related to price and you know, you're this person if you're always looking for the coupon code or the discount code or you're trying to find the cheapest way to do something, then you've got a bit of that going on. [00:15:21] Jason: Because that's your identity. And so I've noticed this. Like in order to get people to be better salespeople, I can't just give them tactics. I have to give them identity. And so, and this is why my greatest sales hack, I call the Golden Bridge Formula. It's like it's the most authentic way to sell, which is your personal why connected to the business why connected to the prospect's why. Because we always trust motives. And the default assumption in sales, if I don't know your motive and you're trying to sell to me, is you want my money. [00:15:54] Sam: Right.  [00:15:54] Jason: And if I think that's your only motive is you want my money and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get that, then you're probably maybe even willing to be unethical in order to get that might be the assumption. [00:16:05] Jason: Right? So that's kind of the default assumption in sales. And so to correct that, if I tell somebody, "Hey. I'm Jason Hull. My personal why is to inspire others to love true principles. And so what that means is I love sharing what works and learning what works and teaching to others. I would do that for free, for fun, and so I created DoorGrow and our why at DoorGrow is to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:16:27] Jason: And so if our whole belief system is around helping people transform their businesses. So that allows me to basically feed my addiction to learning, coaches, masterminds, books, whatever, and turn around and be able to share what's working with others. And that's just fun for me. So I have a business that basically fulfills my lifestyle and allows me to have fun and do what I want to do. [00:16:51] Jason: And you, Mr. Property management, business owner, who I'm maybe selling to, want to grow your business. And so our interests are in alignment. My business is the bridge that connects your why to my why. We both get what we want. It's the ultimate win-win, right? Everybody wins. And so I've been able to take really terrible salespeople that are really bad at selling, and I just get them clear on their own identity. [00:17:14] Jason: Mm-hmm. Who they are, why they do what they do, and have them relate that to people and then people trust them. And sales and deals happened at the speed of trust.  [00:17:22] Sam: Oh my gosh, I love this so much. It's insanely powerful too when I'm teaching people how to do just introductions, you know? A super quick formula too for the property managers out there that are listening to that, even if you're property manager, you have to get good at sales. [00:17:38] Sam: Yeah, you have to be good at communication to be able to bring more doors into your portfolio. And so the way you know, a really easy formula for those homeowners when you're having that conversation, first of all, they've got to know who they're talking to. Yeah. You know, this belief, identity, you know, matrix that I actually I love to call, I just did a keynote. [00:17:59] Sam: It's funny for everybody listening. It's almost like Jason and I have read each other's notes, but we haven't. Just did a keynote, well that's maybe a month ago in Minnesota, that the entire talk was your thoughts, create your belief about yourself, your totally belief about yourself creates your identity, and then your identity creates your outcomes. [00:18:16] Sam: Yeah. And, but we have to go back and start with those thoughts. And so, but a simple, easy formula for property managers out there having this conversation is first of all, start asking permission for things. Yes. We can't just tell, right? If we can ask it as a question, ask it as a question. [00:18:36] Sam: So ask permission, like, "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I take a quick minute and just introduce you to our company and myself."  [00:18:44] Sam: yeah.  [00:18:45] Sam: And so first of all, anytime a conversation starts, there's always this period of icebreaking, right? Yeah. Anytime anything new is introduced in anyone's environment, there's always stiffness until that moment of rapport happens and we relax a little bit. [00:19:00] Sam: Yeah. So taking a couple of minutes to just. "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I introduce the company and a little bit about myself? Would that be all right?" Yes. So permission to it and then just take a few minutes because I mean, so many times we'll go through this crazy presentation and then we're asking somebody to buy from us and they don't even know who we are. [00:19:21] Sam: We never took the time to even introduce ourselves. Right.  [00:19:24] Jason: Yeah.  [00:19:24] Sam: Or they don't know thing about the company.  [00:19:25] Jason: Trying to immediately shove the product or service down their throat.  [00:19:28] Sam: Yeah. No wonder they need to think about it. They don't even know who you are. And so we introduce that first. [00:19:34] Sam: It's huge. And to just getting into the things. So that's the flow. It's like, okay, now that you know a little bit about us, tell us a little bit about you. What are you looking for? Right. So then you start that discovery process, and I'm sure you trained this but the discovery process is everything. [00:19:51] Sam: We have to understand the motive behind why they want to do things. Somebody just says, "Hey, I'm looking for a property manager." Okay, great. That's one thing. "Why do you would need a property manager? What are you trying to solve? What do we want to accomplish by having a property manager for your property?" [00:20:09] Sam: So we find out, what are the pain points? What are the issues that they're wanting to overcome? And then from there, we can create a, you know, craft a conversation around it. But until we know that, we're just stabbing in the dark and just guessing it. Yeah. Well, hopefully this will work.  [00:20:23] Jason: Right. Yeah. If we just jump right to offering solutions when we don't even ask what they need it's not very effective. [00:20:30] Jason: And then they're going to have a ton of objections.  [00:20:32] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But yeah, that's the some of the complaints we have are the communication and the other one is just not responding once we find solutions, then give them to the property manager. [00:20:45] Sam: And then it's like ghosting for who knows how long until finally somebody gets back. And so that's the other side of the communication is not getting resolution once we actually, you know, we can do this work, but we're not going to sit around here all day to wait to get it approved. We have other appointments. [00:21:02] Sam: So do we want to reschedule?  [00:21:03] Jason: It's treating the vendor like they're high value, they're going to treat you like you're high value and they're going to prioritize you. And so it really is a mutual respect relationship that needs to be built. So, Sam, I also want to bring up to our audience, you are going to be coming [00:21:19] Jason: to speak at DoorGrow Live. Yeah. And you're going to be teaching some really cool stuff. Could you just touch on real quick what you're going to be sharing at this because I wanted to come bring you to expose my clients and my audience to what you're going to be sharing and maybe you can get some people pumped up for DoorGrow Live, so. [00:21:38] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you for the invite as well. I'm super excited to be speaking for DoorGorw Live. It's my passion, in fact to be able to help people in their daily lives, especially in conversations like this, to make it easy. I am such a firm believer that sales should be easy. If it's not easy, we're overcomplicating it. And so what we're going to be talking about at the event is I'm going to give some really simple keys to better communication so people actually not only listen, but they understand what you're saying and, more importantly, why should they care? [00:22:18] Sam: So we're going to talk about something called, the benefit lens. We're going to talk about some easy word substitutions. We're not going to be learning scripts or anything. We're going to be, we're going to show any really easy ways to get immediate buy-in to what our conversation is. Nice. And how to recruit people to be raving fans and be on board. [00:22:38] Sam: And how to ask and get referrals because that's huge in...  [00:22:44] Sam: absolutely.  [00:22:44] Sam: ...something like a property management. If every third door you added also added another one from a referral, what would that do to your business? Yeah, absolutely. So not just asking for referrals, but actually asking in a way where actually get them. [00:22:57] Jason: Right. Yeah. If you're getting enough referrals, one, because you have a good reputation, you're doing a good job, but also because you have an intention and you're asking appropriately, you create this kind of virus of growth in your business where it's multiplying. [00:23:13] Jason: Every client becomes more clients.  [00:23:16] Sam: Yep. Absolutely. In fact, we can do a quick little as an example of some of the things we're going to cover. Are you open to doing a quick little role play with me on...  [00:23:24] Sam: all right. Let's do it.  [00:23:25] Sam: Some of the conversation here. Yeah. I love role play.  [00:23:28] Sam: Let's have fun.  [00:23:29] Sam: Yeah, for sure. [00:23:30] Sam: So I'm property manager. So before we do, give me a quick little context of what is a premium price property manager and what is like a middle range property manager. And so I'll know what I'm working with here. [00:23:44] Jason: Oh yeah. Usually our clients have three different price points for that reason. So, perfect. But let's say like, real typical in the marketplace is 10% is pretty normal. Okay? And this is not what we recommend. because our clients close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:23:59] Jason: So we have some special pricing models, but let's say 10%. Premium, maybe 12%, and the lower would maybe be like 8%.  [00:24:08] Sam: Got it. Got it. Perfect. Alright, so I'm the project manager. So I'm going to be a premium 12%. Yeah. So what we're going to do in this conversation, I'm going to ask for the business and you're going to give me a little bit of a price flinch with, "well, the other guy was only 10%." [00:24:23] Sam: Okay. And so we'll show a quick, easy way to handle that. All right. In a way that will make sense for everybody. So, alright, Jason, so, sounds like everything that you've talked about, can you see how all the things we do will take care of the concerns that you have? [00:24:38] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Sounds great.  [00:24:40] Sam: Awesome. Perfect. So the next steps to get moving is you know, so we're just 12% of the monthly as for us to be able to take care of all of that. And this will just need a quick authorization on this form here and we can get started right away.  [00:24:55] Jason: Ooh, okay. Well, I was expecting, you know, I talked to a company down the street, they were like 10%, which seems to be a bit more normal. [00:25:04] Jason: I don't know.  [00:25:04] Sam: More normal?  [00:25:07] Jason: I've talked to a couple companies and a lot of them all do it at 10%. Could, like, is it possible you could do it at 10%?  [00:25:13] Sam: Oh, gotcha. So listen, I mean, so we were just 12%, but listen, we're not 2% higher or 2% more expensive. We're 2% better. Can I explain to you why that is? [00:25:25] Jason: Sure.  [00:25:26] Sam: Absolutely.  [00:25:27] Sam: So at that point, as a great company, you're going to have a hit list of all of the reasons why you're better than everybody else, and what makes you that premium company. I like it. So the minute we get that permission question in of, "Hey, we're not 2% more expensive, we're 2% higher, we're 2% better." [00:25:43] Sam: Then the permission question is, "can I show you why, or can I show you how?" And they say "Yes." Then we're going to, "okay, so what we do, it's..." never talk bad about the competition. Sure. But it's always with that perspective. "So what we do is this, and what we do is this, and what we do is this. We're always going to have the availability to be in contact, you know, 24/7 or you know, whatever all of the benefits is. [00:26:10] Sam: We're going through this huge benefit list. Yeah. And then when, once we, and it works like magic, once you get to about 10 or 12 things, especially when you know, those first 10 or 12 things are things the other companies don't do. Yeah. So many times that person will go, "you know what? You're right. You know what? You're right. Let's just go ahead and do it." Yeah.  [00:26:31] Jason: I mean, you go through those things you say, "so does that make sense why maybe we're 2% better?" And they're going to be like, "yeah."  [00:26:38] Jason: You've got agreement.  [00:26:39] Sam: Cool. Absolutely. And the other thing to do in this conversation, and this is really powerful too, so, you know, we'll take you know, what's a, what's the average rent that we'd be taking that percentage off of? [00:26:50] Jason: Let's say 2000 bucks.  [00:26:51] Sam: So 2000 bucks. That's what I was going to use. "So we're talking about 2% difference. So we're looking at $40 a month or $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for $10 a week to potentially fight the headache of, you know, your property management company not responding when you need them to respond, your tenants being really unhappy, the tenants turning over and over, for, I mean, $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for that?"  [00:27:22] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:23] Sam: So if, I mean, if you're willing to roll the dice and take that chance, then of course you could do what you want. But if you want it done right and done once, so you're headache free and you're not going to have to, because the reason you hire a property manager is to be hands off. [00:27:35] Sam: Right? Yeah. Perfect. That's why what, that's what sets us apart. Next to any of the other companies around.  [00:27:43] Jason: Got it. So hypothetical property manager, Sam here, like believes. You can tell by listening to him, he believes in what he is selling. He believes he's worth that 12%. He believes he's worth that value, and I love that reframe. [00:27:58] Jason: One of the NLP hacks I teach clients is, it's not a, it's b, and he's like, "it's not that we're expensive or higher price, it's that we're 2% better." And so you're saying this is how you are looking at it. Here's how I want you to look at it. And that's a really cool correction. I love that right there. [00:28:16] Jason: Very powerful.  [00:28:17] Sam: The other part of that too is when you take, we're not talking about the total monthly, you know, we're talking about what's 12% or 10%? We're talking about 2% difference. Yeah. Is it worth it to you for a 2% difference to take the chance on having to deal with this, having to manage your own projects, having the headache, having the you know, the angry tenants or we don't have that problem. [00:28:42] Sam: And here's proof: review, testimony. Other people in the area, for people that use us just like you guys.  [00:28:49] Jason: Yeah. Awesome. Perfect. And you're going to share some really cool stuff I know at DoorGrow Live. I'm excited, man. Me too.  [00:28:56] Sam: Let's just tip of the iceberg. [00:28:57] Jason: For a salesman to be able to like build a coaching business, teaching sales like these are the best in the world at sales, and so I'm really excited to have you come. I've sold millions and millions of dollars of stuff. I love, I'm always learning more about sales, like this is something you can always continually learn more, so I love that little reframe. [00:29:17] Jason: That's a good one. I'm excited to hear what else you have to share. This is going to be really awesome. And if you're interested, go to doorgrowlive.com and get your tickets. Get your tickets. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management, and we are bringing future ideas. [00:29:32] Jason: I'm going to be going over hybrid pricing, a new pricing model for property managers. This is the future. We're going to be sharing our DoorGrow hiring system. This is the future of how you're going to need to do hiring, so you're not making mistakes with hires, we're helping a lot of people replace their entire team. [00:29:48] Jason: So anyway, DoorGrow Live is going to be really freaking cool. So, yeah, and it's a holistic conference as well. We're bringing people from outside the industry, people that are related to different things. I've got a biohacking expert. We've got different things just to optimize your life as an entrepreneur and to make you better at what you do. [00:30:05] Jason: So this is going to be really cool. So, well, Sam anything else we should touch on?  [00:30:10] Sam: You know, there's so much we could cover.  [00:30:12] Jason: There's a lot. We'll save it for DoorGrow Live. How can people that, if they're listening, they're like, I'm a vendor, or I've got this, or I could really use Sam's help. [00:30:21] Jason: How can they get ahold of you?  [00:30:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. They can go to, of course the website is closeitnow.net. That's NET so closeitnow.net. They can email me directly, sam@closeitnow.net. On an Instagram at @therealcloseitnow. Okay. Or basically search Close it Now anywhere and I pop up all over the place. [00:30:44] Sam: All right. I'm kind of everywhere on social media and on the Googles at this point. All right.  [00:30:50] Jason: All right, well we're going to close this show now, so appreciate you coming on, Sam. It's been great having you. And for those that are watching, listening, if you could use some help from DoorGrow reach out to us. [00:31:00] Jason: You can check us out at doorgrow.com. We are the world leaders at coaching and scaling property management companies. And so if you are dealing with operational challenges, team challenges, hiring challenges, or you just don't know the right strategies for adding doors or business development, we can help you with all of that. [00:31:18] Jason: So reach out to us, check us out at doorgrow.com and until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

As a property manager, you're familiar with the uncomfortable shuffle when trying to ensure utilities are set up correctly at move-in. What if you could make the whole process easier? In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with the founder of Utility Profit, Zac Maurais, to discuss wires, pipes, and signals: Everything you wish you knew about home utilities. You'll Learn [01:48] How Zac Built a $100 Million Business [07:38] Solving Utility Challenges with a Streamlined Tool [15:54] Using Utility Profit to Make Extra Profit [23:26] Integrations and Frequently Asked Questions [30:20] Take Action on The Things You're Avoiding! Quotables “I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid.” “Done is better than perfect.” “Have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself.” “ Whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Zac: It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:00:08] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future. So, All right. [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur and you want to add doors, you want to make a difference, you want to increase revenue, you want to help others, you want to impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager and you just don't know it. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:47] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:13] Jason: I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show and I'm hanging out today with Zac Maurais. Did I say it right?  [00:01:25] Jason: That's right, yes.  [00:01:26] Jason: Hey. All right, cool. It's great to have you on the show. So Zac we're going to be chatting today about wires, pipes, and signals, everything you wish you knew about home utilities. [00:01:38] Jason: I think this will be interesting to our listeners because, you know, we get into this stuff as property management people. So, so Zac before we get into that though, give us a little backstory on you. How'd you get into being an entrepreneur? When did you first figure that out, that you maybe were one and then we can get into why you started this business so that you've got going and tell us, tell everybody about it. [00:01:58] Jason: Cool.  [00:02:00] Zac: Let's do it. Yeah. So, quick intro myself, I live here in Austin, Texas. I've been an entrepreneur now for better part of a decade and a half. Right out of college I started a business it was actually a food delivery business called Favor. We ended up scaling that business to having 50,000 delivery drivers in the state of Texas. [00:02:22] Zac: So it was the second largest employer in the state. And over the course of building it up over a couple of years, we were doing over a hundred million dollars of food sales a year. So sizable company and we sold that to HEB grocery and yeah.  [00:02:38] Jason: And if people don't know, HEB I'm in the Austin area, I'm up in Round Rock. [00:02:41] Jason: But if people don't know HEB. HEB consistently wins the best grocery store awards like in America every year. Like it's always winning.  [00:02:51] Zac: It's kind of amazing. I mean, they are an institution. There's so many small towns across Texas where the only show in town, I would kind of say it's akin to like a Walmart or something like that for a national brand that people would be more familiar with. [00:03:04] Zac: Family run business, been around for a hundred years. So it's cool that it had joined forces with Favor. And learned a lot from doing that company. I mean, at the time that we sold it, we had over 140 corporate employees, designers and software engineers and business intelligence people and salespeople. [00:03:24] Zac: So I'm right there with you, Jason, where I like growth. I like growing things and learning about business and learning about new categories. So as I sold it, I was looking for the next thing to do.  [00:03:35] Jason: So people are clear, Favor, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but Favor competes with like Instacart and like some of these, it's like a delivery service. [00:03:44] Zac: That's right. So the way that the service worked was, it was like an on demand. It was part of the on demand delivery kind of thing that was happening. The gig economy, you know, people will probably remember Lyft coming out and Uber. There wasn't one for delivery of kind of like fast casual food or groceries yet. [00:04:02] Zac: And we brought that into the market. We had first mover.  [00:04:05] Jason: Oh yeah. So yeah, it's kind of like Uber Eats and, you know, these kind of things.  [00:04:08] Zac: Exactly. So you could tap a button, request a Favor, and then someone would go shopping for you, go pick up some tacos or yeah, run at the grocery store or something like that and bring it to you in 45 minutes or less. [00:04:20] Jason: Got it. And is Favor just a Texas thing?  [00:04:23] Zac: At one point in time we tried to go national expansion, but it was a bit of a wartime thing that was going on. Yeah. A lot of VC dollars getting put in. And we had a very strong Texas brand. We had over a million people in Texas using it. [00:04:37] Zac: Yes. So we said we just doubled down on home base.  [00:04:40] Jason: I mean, Texas is like its own little universe. We've got Favor, we've got HEB, we've got, you know, there's all these things that are just specifically Texas. So if y'all come to Texas, you got to like experience the whole Texas deal. You got to go to an HEB, you got to go to Bucky's, you got to go to all these things, right? [00:04:56] Zac: So yeah, right. When you're here in town for Jason's event, go get yourself some Yeti swag.  [00:05:02] Jason: Yes.  [00:05:02] Zac: And then order yourself a Favor.  [00:05:04] Jason: Yes. There you go. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, and people get really religious about their, you know, things like Yeti. It's like Yeti Mecca. Like people, like my brother-in-law comes into town. He is like, "I got to go to the Yeti store." He's like, just like starry-eyed in there. And I'm like, "why? Why?" Coolers, thermases? I don't know. Cool drinks. Yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. So he like collects them, and then sometimes he's flipping them too. Like there's limited edition things, so. My brother-in-law's name is Jason also, so he might listen to this. [00:05:36] Jason: So Jason, I mentioned you on my podcast, so, all right.  [00:05:39] Jason: Shout out to Jason.  [00:05:41] Jason: Shout out to Jason. So, cool. So Zac, I mean, that's a pretty impressive thing. Not many people can say they built a hundred million dollar, you know, business or had an exit or something like that. So, and then what did you do next? [00:05:55] Jason: Like, you sell this thing, did you lose all meaning and purpose in life and decide to start a new business or what happened?  [00:06:01] Zac: I think that happens with some people, right? You sell it, you have somebody, you're like, "what am I going to do with my life now?" I'm going to take a good thing and somehow it becomes a bad thing. [00:06:09] Zac: But I just, I really like building. And I like the process of entrepreneurship where you talk to people, you try to find a problem and you like go hit a whiteboard, you sketch, it becomes more tangible, and then all of a sudden you can partner with an engineer and make it and then bring it back to the customer. [00:06:26] Zac: And I just like that. It kind of just scratches something in my brain, I think. And something else that's been cool for me on my entrepreneurship journey. I had mentioned that I've been doing it now for a decade and a half and the entire time that I've been working and doing startups, I've been doing it with like my best friend Ben from growing up together. [00:06:45] Zac: We  [00:06:46] Jason: best friend Ben.  [00:06:46] Zac: wen to school in New Hampshire. And it's fun to be able to go on that journey with someone like that.  [00:06:52] Jason: Yeah. That's cool. So you and Ben are still doing stuff together then.  [00:06:55] Zac: Right.  [00:06:56] Jason: Yeah. Third company.  [00:06:57] Zac: Third company now, so.  [00:06:59] Jason: Yeah. Dynamic duo. All right. And so I imagine that you have some complimentary sort of skill sets and challenge each other a bit. [00:07:08] Zac: Yeah, I think our brains have kind of been swapped and became more of the same brain. But the way that I explained it originally was like Ben was the left brain engineer, right? He is going to build out the backend database. He was a civil engineer, so he was just constantly doing math. And then I was more of the, you can kind of see there's some paintings behind me, like I was the artist.  [00:07:30] Jason: The right brain guy. Yeah. Got it.  [00:07:32] Zac: But now it just kind of became one, somewhere between now. He kind of went a little bit more right. I went more left, so.  [00:07:38] Jason: Cool. So bring us up towards the present day. So like, what are you and Ben, you know, getting together and working on? [00:07:45] Zac: Yeah, so I guess the way that we got into the property management industry was we were trying to build some leasing automation tech over the last few years. We had something called Sunroom Leasing, and it was like a platform that would help. With self showings, with different things related to collecting some data from renters about the home. [00:08:05] Zac: We had at one point in time, around 8,000 homes that were leasing across the country for some real estate investment trusts and some large scale property managers. And it kind of turned us on to this like, it had some challenges I think of that scale. And so we ended up realizing that's not what we want to do long term. [00:08:26] Zac: And something that it was like a good ride, but I think we were onto something that could be more scalable and a more acute problem to solve.  [00:08:35] Jason: Yeah, this was like a tuition business. You're learning and paying the price of tuition. Yeah. So you got familiar with the property management industry a bit through that. [00:08:44] Jason: That's right. Figured out kind of your target audience and you probably started to see some different problems you like started scheming with your whiteboard on, so.  [00:08:52] Zac: Yeah, and the problem that we zoomed into was around utility setup. And what we thought was kind of a silly thing was, here it is, it's 2024. [00:09:01] Zac: This was last year that we had launched it. We realized that there wasn't like a Google Maps of utilities. We thought it was silly that you couldn't just type in an address online and then see what's the water, what's the electric, what's the gas, what's the internet? There was no transparency for that. [00:09:20] Zac: And when we looked closer, there's like, you zoom in on water, there's over 20,000 water providers and they have really weird setups, you know, or it could be down just by the neighborhood or the zip code or the, you know, it's just wacky the way that the mapping works. And we thought if we could build out the whole mapping infrastructure, that would be a valuable thing, both for owners of the property that just want to have a more streamlined process, property managers that are doing it every day, and then renters. If you kind of think of this problem of setting up utilities while it's annoying and they have to Google around and make a bunch of phone calls, this is just one problem within a whole, you know, iceberg of other things. It's just the tip, small thing that they're doing a ton of things related to the move. We thought that if we could streamline this, then it could have a broad appeal and be something that we could do nationally and do at a big scale. So, over the last year, what we've done is we've built out that infrastructure to be able to do mapping at scale. [00:10:21] Zac: And we have built a platform that streamlines the process of turning on utilities. We're trying to make the utility on switch and it's a cool tool because the property managers using it can get confirmation that utilities have been set up correctly. And this is helpful for them because, you know, if you don't turn on the electricity and it's the dead of winter, you're probably going to have some problems on your hands with pipes bursting, you know, and things like that. [00:10:48] Zac: So, it's a useful tool in the process.  [00:10:51] Jason: So let's talk about this problem, right? This is super annoying. Like everybody that's moved has had to figure out this weird, you know, puzzle to like, which utility providers are available here? Which internet provider can I use? What are my options? Can I get this cool fiber, you know, thing, can I get this? Is there..? Like what's available? Then they're trying to figure out like water, electric. You're maybe trying to find out from the previous owner or somebody and you're trying to like negotiate all this and then like getting things switched and then the timelines like it's a mess. [00:11:25] Jason: Like it's really annoying and yeah, it's like why do we just deal with this and put up with this? We're living in the age of AI and this AI revolution now and. Why isn't there a better solution to this? It seems like it's just like chaos and confusion. Yeah, so.  [00:11:45] Zac: It is chaos and confusion. Yeah. And people waste so much time doing it and oh god. [00:11:50] Zac: Yeah. And I think as a result, like sometimes people will just make sacrifices where they'll be like, well, I was on this telecom company before. Maybe I'll just go back to them. And then I might miss out on being able to be like, well, I could have had faster internet or a better plan that's cheaper or something If they had just...  [00:12:07] Jason: sure. Yeah.  [00:12:07] Zac: ...known that they had options.  [00:12:10] Jason: Right. You're like, man, I'm still using dial up. And I didn't realize Google Fiber was available here. Yeah, right.  [00:12:15] Zac: Throwing that in an old AOL like.  [00:12:18] Jason: Yes, I remember those days. I was such a nerd. Alright, so yeah, and people may maybe get impatient and they just make some quick decisions. [00:12:27] Jason: You know, and all these companies try to give them incentives like, Hey, if you move, like we'll move it and help you get it set up. And they try to make it seamless, but because they're trying to retain their, you know, the customer, but that might not be in the best interest of the customer.  [00:12:41] Zac: Totally. Yeah. So this we're in the spirit of trying to add transparency into the process, make it more streamlined. And and have a really lightweight tool like, you know, not another app you have to download, but just something that seamlessly fits in the move in process. Okay. [00:12:55] Zac: Integrates really well with the tools that the property manager is already using, you know, just is able to sync, in real time, figure out what are the addresses coming up, and then give the property manager a way to both communicate what the utilities are and then check that they've been turned on. [00:13:16] Zac: And then interestingly, there's a lot of places in the US where these telecom companies are competing. And they spent a lot of money to lay down these fiber optic lines, you know, or copper lines, and they're trying to recoup some of that cost. Yeah. And so they'll pay money for more customers. [00:13:35] Zac: And so we're able to generate revenue and then share that with property managers as an incentive to use the tool.  [00:13:43] Jason: Okay, cool. So what's the name of the tool or this service?  [00:13:46] Zac: It's called Utility Profit.  [00:13:48] Jason: Utility profit. Okay. All right. And it's P-R-O-F-I-T I would assume? Yep, exactly. Not like you're prophesying. [00:13:57] Jason: All right, got it. So Utility Profit, and so this really is solving that challenge to just streamline all that, and there's a financial incentive or benefit for the property manager helping to get these things connected.  [00:14:11] Zac: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And one of the...  [00:14:14] Jason: Win, win, win all the way around win. [00:14:15] Zac: Yeah, exactly. And that's the best type of tool. You know, something that it doesn't just benefit one party, but all the people involved. Yeah. And so, you know, it's exciting there. Now there's people across the entire United States using it. We've been helping thousands of renters per month. [00:14:32] Zac: Just in the last year there's been, I think over 750 property managers using it. Some really big ones with thousands of properties all the way down to people that just have a couple homes in the portfolio. I think the average has about 400 homes and, you know, it's really kind of empowering that we bring something to the world and that fast that many people are using it. [00:14:55] Zac: It's cool to see.  [00:14:56] Jason: Yeah. Cool. So. And Ben's leading the nerds on the team making this all work.  [00:15:02] Zac: Yeah, we're both working closely with engineers and, I mean, it's been a big lift. I mean, we've had to do all sorts of wacky things to be able to like get this data because like I said, it didn't exist. [00:15:12] Zac: I imagine. [00:15:13] Zac: We have to like literally go and draw service maps, you know, that were PDFs on old websites and then, you know, turn them into a structured database. Right. I, you know, pull it up correctly. Yeah.  [00:15:26] Jason: You're just doing this ground level legwork to like get... it's almost like you're transferring old records into a digital format. [00:15:35] Jason: You know? Yeah. So that people could play their MP3s or something. Yeah.  [00:15:38] Zac: It kind of feels like that. It's almost like we're like taking the Yellow Pages and then putting it online or something. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a wacky problem that we're solving there.  [00:15:48] Jason: So you're single handedly bringing the utility space into the future, so.  [00:15:54] Zac: Yeah. And one thing that we've we've been doing over the last couple months that I think is pretty cool is that there's this whole industry that exists for the multifamily apartment space related to what they call as like fiber as an amenity or fiber to the home. [00:16:11] Zac: Yeah. And so the way it would work on multifamily would be, you know, these big telecoms would say, "Hey, we'll sell you a thousand units of internet and then we'll give you a discount for doing so. And then you can either kind of keep that for yourself or you can, you know, share that with your tenants as a way to help your apartments stand out from other apartments." [00:16:33] Zac: The apartments are i identifiable and also you know, easier for the telecoms to spot. The hard thing about homes is it's this long tail of properties and there hasn't been a good way to aggregate them. I think over the last few years there's been some, you know, real estate investment trusts that have got to scale. [00:16:54] Zac: And so it kind of got these telecom companies thinking, "Hey, maybe I should go you know, sell into this market, see if we can apply the same principles of this program from apartments to single family." But it hasn't yet been done at any sort of significant scale. It's kind of a new concept. Now that we have hundreds of thousands of homes, that we are effectively the on switch for, we're helping to source these deals. [00:17:20] Zac: And we're able to bring, you know, significant discount from retail pricing to property managers and consumers. So we we're adding that as a new program that we're doing. We're calling it like Fiber Ready Homes. So it's a cool thing because we can help property managers identify what portion of their portfolio has the underlying technology at the home to have, you know, hyper fast internet speeds. [00:17:47] Zac: Yeah. And then do all of the enrollment process and the billing process to be able to offer a program like this. And and it's pretty gnarly. Like the average property manager that will turn on this program can make tens of thousands of dollars a year. It's roughly $10 per month per door. [00:18:04] Zac: So if you're a 300 door property manager, this is about $18,000. 18,000 per year that you'd be able to generate. And just, you know, kind of free cash flows for enabling something that the renters want.  [00:18:18] Jason: Right. Just making more money and yeah, I mean, high speed internet also being able to bring that to your units. [00:18:26] Jason: It creates a bigger incentive for people to rent it. I mean, it's definitely something I research before I buy a home or move anywhere. I'm always like, what Internet's available there because my life is going to be happening through this. And a lot of more people working from home, especially since Covid. [00:18:41] Zac: True. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think a lot of renters see internet more important than running water in some ways. I mean, it's like everyone's on Netflix and doing work from home calls. You know, it's just, it's super important for renters.  [00:18:55] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's interesting. And it sucks though when you like if you rent somewhere and that you only have one option and it's not the option that you really want in that area because sometimes they've negotiated like, oh, it's Comcast cable or something like this, and it's low speed or whatever. [00:19:11] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Sometimes you're kind of limited by what lines have been laid, and sometimes there's limited options, but it's cool because now we have these two programs. We have one, which is that one I just explained, and then we have a second one. We call it like a marketplace. So it'll truly show you everything that's available, every single company, every single speed all the details of it and help to facilitate just being able to turn it on a lot easier. [00:19:34] Jason: Got it. How does this work? Like a property manager gets set up in your system, they've got their properties, you know, in this, and then they can figure out the tenants when they're onboarding a new tenant, they're like, "Hey, before we give you keys and move you in, we want to make sure utilities are getting moved over." [00:19:49] Jason: So you help streamline this?  [00:19:51] Zac: That's right. Yeah. So it will connect seamlessly with property managers, property management software. Pull in the active listings that they have, and then it will have triggers around the move in date. So once someone's been approved and you have a move in date that's approaching. [00:20:08] Zac: It will send reminders and say, Hey, you know, you're moving in end of the month, like before you move in, please show that you've turned the electric on so that there's not going to be bill back problems and things like that.  [00:20:20] Zac: So, it handles the communication and then what's pretty cool about the tool too, is it's all white labeled. Utility Profit, it's not, you know, like a tenant friendly name, you know? Yeah. It's really for the property manager. And so, okay. We're just helping to facilitate these things. So it's got the property manager's logo, you know, we're more just the underlying technology, which I think is good because like a renter in the process doesn't want to get handed off to another third party. [00:20:48] Zac: They just want to... [00:20:49] Jason: yeah, "Who are these guys? Why should I trust them? I trust you. I'm working with you," but yeah. Got it. No, I think that's really smart. And so your business model then, your growth strategy really is to leverage and support the property managers.  [00:21:02] Zac: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're trying to partner with all the property managers in the single family rental space. [00:21:08] Zac: And you know, last I checked, you know, there's at least five to 10 million homes that are managed by third party property managers. And we want to become the main place where where people used to turn on utilities. And you know, we talked about entrepreneurs and having a big vision earlier in the call. [00:21:26] Zac: You know, I think we're solving an important problem by building this Google Maps of Utilities and also just making a better experience. I think anytime we start a business though, you're kind of thinking about like, okay, "Well if I'm able to pull this off, how could this even be even more significant long term?" [00:21:42] Zac: And one of the things that I've been just thinking about as I've been doing it is you know, today we are helping to connect the dots between these things, but I bet in the not too distant future, maybe a few years out, we'll be responsible for millions of homes in helping to turn on these utilities. [00:21:59] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:00] Zac: We'll probably want to go down the stack of utilities, you know, instead of just directing you to be going to, you know, XYZ local power source. Maybe they get directed to a company that, similar to how we're able to get discounts on internet because we have so much scale, we could buy energy contracts in deregulated markets and, you know,  [00:22:22] Jason: okay. [00:22:22] Zac: Inch down becoming a utility.  [00:22:24] Zac: Okay.  [00:22:24] Zac: And so, I think it's a, it's an interesting thing.  [00:22:27] Jason: So you're saying maybe there's a potential the property manager could be the utility?  [00:22:32] Zac: We'll be able to help the property manager earn more money... [00:22:35] Zac: yeah. [00:22:35] Zac: ...on this process because we...  [00:22:38] Zac: just more margin [00:22:38] Zac: ...want to direct them to like a utility that we own. And we're able to help them monetize these other things like natural gas and electricity.  [00:22:49] Jason: Got it. Love it. Yeah. You're passing the benefit onto the property manager. So, yeah. That gives them quite an incentive to help you grow this. [00:22:55] Jason: Right. So I love it. So, I mean, this really gives property managers a strong competitive advantage over self-management then. [00:23:03] Zac: Yeah, I think so. You know, I think property managers, they have so many things that they're doing and this is one of those set it and forget it types of tools. You know, it's not something you have to have mastery over and like learn another thing, this is like you get on, you set the thing up, you get the logo added and get it synced to your PM software and then you're done with it and it just kind of is happening in the background and then just notifies you. [00:23:26] Jason: Got it. So the setup is pretty easy and then it makes it a lot easier for the property management team to make sure utilities are getting set up correctly. There's visibility into seeing what's been set up and what hasn't, it sounds like. And you mentioned integrations with property management software, and I know everybody listening's like, "but what about my software? The one I'm using?" Yeah. So what integrations do you guys have set up already?  [00:23:49] Zac: It's all the major ones. So what we find is like AppFolio is popular. Rentvine is becoming more and more popular. You know, Propertyware is another one. Buildium's one that we you know, have in the works too, but yeah, I think most people... [00:24:04] Zac: Rent manager? [00:24:05] Zac: Rent manager, yeah. That's one that we work with too. Yeah. I know there's a lot of options for property managers there, but yeah. [00:24:11] Jason: Very cool. Yeah. So everybody listening there. There you go. So they're like, "oh, he mentioned mine. I'm okay."  [00:24:17] Zac: Yeah, that's right. Yeah it's cool that it, you know, just works in a broad way like that. And it's kind of interesting too that the tool even is able to work you know, even if you don't even have a property management software to figure out some ways to you know, even work in that use case. [00:24:32] Jason: Sure.  [00:24:32] Zac: But most people have software.  [00:24:34] Jason: So as long as you can get the properties like into your system, then...?  [00:24:38] Jason: That's right.  [00:24:38] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. But if they have those then and you have that connection, then it's, yeah, it'll just streamline things. Makes it even more turnkey.  [00:24:47] Zac: That's right.  [00:24:48] Jason: Got it. Cool. So, all right, so you, what else should people know about this? [00:24:52] Jason: Like what are the big questions property managers have been asking you?  [00:24:55] Zac: I think one question is, you know, how much money I earn from this? You know? Okay.  [00:24:59] Jason: They like, they want to know about the money. Let's talk about the money.  [00:25:03] Zac: So the average property manager will, it's a range of 25 to $40 per move that, that happens. [00:25:10] Zac: It ends up being about 25 to, to $30 on average is what we're seeing across the country. And so I think it's one of those things where it's like nice gravy. What we find is that the average property manager, they're like, "this is nice. I can make some extra money from it." But I think it's like, you know, not enough to go, you know, it just adds to the bottom line a little bit. [00:25:32] Zac: Every little thing. Sure. So the main reason why people use it is the time savings, you know? Absolutely. It's just one last thing to have to worry about. So that's that's what we're seeing as we talk to people.  [00:25:44] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, just the amount of time you're paying a team member, if they're like 25 to $35 an hour, for example you know, they might be spending an hour or two here or there just calling, trying to negotiate back and forth with the tenant, get these things set up so. [00:25:59] Zac: Property management some days feels like death by a thousand mosquitoes.  [00:26:04] Jason: Oh yeah. I often joke it's, it can be death by a thousand cuts or it can be a really well oiled systemizable machine, but yeah. [00:26:12] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, it offsets a little bit at the move in cost and then just the time savings. You're not having to pay your team to do all this communication. And you know, speed in onboarding is a real challenge for a lot of companies that are really in a high growth sort of state. [00:26:28] Jason: Like small companies might have a hard time just onboarding 10 units in a month, you know? Yeah. And larger companies, it can be pretty hairy if things aren't well dialed in.  [00:26:36] Zac: Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's all about having the systems in place. So that they scale.  [00:26:40] Jason: Very cool. [00:26:41] Jason: Well, is there anything else you think people should know about utility profit? And then we can get into like, how can they connect and get something like this going?  [00:26:50] Zac: Yeah. So the website's, utilityprofit.com.  [00:26:53] Jason: Okay.  [00:26:53] Zac: And it has some more information about how it works and has has some videos of the actual product. [00:26:59] Zac: You can see what it looks like from the renter's perspective, from your perspective and the dashboard that gives transparency. And and it kind of just walks you through everything about the product. And then there's a way on the website to be able to either book a demo if you have any questions about how something works. [00:27:17] Zac: And then, what we do is we'll just help you do like an onboarding call where we have people connect their PM software, upload a logo, invite their team members, really simple, straightforward process and then and then it's kind of good to go. So it's very streamlined thing. People typically will do it and it'll be live same day. [00:27:38] Zac: It's not like some big heavy lift or something. You just kind of go through this 15 minute process. We help you get it all synced up and then it's good to go.  [00:27:45] Jason: So, there's competition out there, right? Like this is a new thing in the space, but previously there's all these companies that try to, you know, negotiate and be able to pull in money and by being the person that gets people on a certain internet service or gets people and they get these kickbacks from the companies and that's how they make their money. [00:28:03] Jason: How do you feel like utility profits sort of stands out from those and I mean, my guess is you have the database, you have the data, like your ability to streamline. You're not having to go and start doing research and that you're just much faster.  [00:28:17] Zac: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. So there's been this whole category over the last couple years that's called a home concierge. [00:28:25] Zac: Yeah. And it's historically been like a call center model. Yeah. Where a rep will get the address and they'll, on your behalf, Google around, make some calls, you know, go try to set things up. And I think that was a helpful first step, and it seems like the natural thing that, that the industry would've been doing. [00:28:43] Zac: But this is just the natural progression of it, you know, building that database out, making it something that is like, you know, a true streamlined tool for everybody. And and just digitizing it a lot more.  [00:28:57] Jason: This is the future. This is the future. It's the next step. You're going to be a sponsor at DoorGrow Live. [00:29:02] Jason: So make sure, you know, everybody come to DoorGrow Live this year. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And so we're going to be sharing innovative stuff. Innovative new models of pricing, not doing it the same way everybody else has been doing it, like percentage or flat fee. There's a lot of innovation and that's our goal at DoorGrow. We're always trying to figure out what are the most innovative stuff? We've got AI maintenance coordinators, we've got all sorts of stuff that are going to be showcased at this event. So if you don't want to be behind the times and have your lunch eaten by competitors and startups that are savvier and more focused on the future, make sure you come to DoorGrow Live. You're going to want to be there because the people that are at DoorGrow Live are going to be the ones that are getting a head start on these really effective cost, saving new tools, these ideas, they're going to help you have more profit in your business. [00:29:54] Jason: And so, Zac, we appreciate you being a sponsor. We're excited to showcase you and some other tools at our event, so.  [00:30:00] Zac: It's going to be fun. It'll be here right around the corner, so. [00:30:03] Jason: Check it out at doorgrowlive.com, and make sure you get your tickets. And we're going to be talking a little bit more in the future, probably on our podcast here. And just online about some of the cool things that you will get or learn if you come to DoorGrow Live this year in May at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas. [00:30:20] Jason: So, cool. Well, Zac, is there anything else you want to share before you go? Parting word of wisdom for entrepreneurs out there that haven't had a hundred million dollar exits and built big giant things and they're just struggling to build their little machine, what would you say to them?  [00:30:36] Zac: I would just say like, whatever it is that you think that's holding you back, just start trying to do it. [00:30:43] Zac: You know? I think a lot of times you build up whatever it is in your head. And you think, "well, I would do it if I had this. Or what if I have to hire this person? Or, you know, I need to have this figured out, or I don't know how this works. Like I'm going to just say no to it." I would just say, just start doing it. [00:31:02] Zac: It doesn't have to be perfect to start. And the more you just take that first step it will become more clear and sometimes, it's harder to see the next 10 steps in front of you, but it's pretty easy to take that first step. So I'd say, have a bias for action. Get your hands dirty. Do it yourself. You have mentioned a lot of these things about AI and how the best companies are using ai. [00:31:25] Zac: We're really leaning into that as an organization. It doesn't matter what people's role is, we're saying. You know, download, ChatGPT three and talk to it. Ask it questions like, you know, there's so many cool resources today. It's the best time to figure things out and do things and and take that first step. [00:31:44] Jason: Yeah. GPT 4.5, we're getting clues of that's dropping and going to be out for everybody soon. And then Grok 3, I've been really geeking out on Grok 3, so it's pretty next level, so, but yeah. Cool. I love the idea. Done is better than perfect. I love the idea of rapid iteration. You know, so many times for those of you that are in the earlier stages of entrepreneurs listening to this, this is great advice because I've seen inside a lot of businesses, a lot of small businesses, and one of the biggest mistakes a lot of them make is they try to make everything perfect before they ship it, before they launch it. "I want to get all my processes dialed in," and they're trying to solve problems they don't even have yet. [00:32:20] Jason: They're trying to solve future problems instead of their current problem. And so rapid iteration really is the secret to growing a business quickly because you learn very fast what does and doesn't work. Just start trying shit. Just do it. Break stuff and you're going to learn way faster and everything's figureoutable, so.  [00:32:39] Zac: Yeah. And in that spirit, it doesn't matter what the thing is, you can always get feedback from it, even if it's not totally built yet, like it can be on a napkin, you know, or it could be the next level of that. But go build the thing in whatever low fidelity way. Yeah. [00:32:55] Zac: And then go talk to your customers about it. And this is going to have different applications for different types of business. because you're going to talk about different things. But you know, maybe you have a new program that you're thinking property owners might want to see, like get their feedback on it. [00:33:10] Zac: Or maybe you want to launch a new website or a new logo or whatever it is. I would just say, it doesn't have to be perfect, bring it but you have to get feedback on it. So definitely go and partner with who it is that is going to see it, and then just talk to them about it and say, "Well, how could this be better? What is this missing? What would be the next thing to do? If you could do anything with this, what would you do?" And, you know, people love to share advice. I mean, I think that's the other thing. Yeah. It's like over the last couple years since I've been doing entrepreneurship, I've been kind of amazed at how many people have been willing to share their time and their advice. [00:33:46] Zac: Yeah. And especially if you get an intro to someone from something. Yeah. You know, I think there's this huge thing of maybe you're afraid to ask for that intro or, you know, have that conversation because it's not perfect yet. I would say, you know, find the ideal person that you want to talk to and then figure out how to work backwards and how to get an intro to them and then have that conversation. [00:34:08] Zac: You know, I think you have to be vulnerable in it because you are going to come across dumb sometimes. You know, people are going to say like, "how did you not know this? Everyone knows this," but like, just lose your ego in that. Be okay with not being okay. And then you're going to feel a lot better because on the other side of it, you're going to learn so much. [00:34:27] Jason: Yeah, I think the secret to being smart is just being willing to look stupid. So, I mean, for sure. Ask the dumb question that you're afraid to ask because you're going to learn way faster. And I really think proximity is power. Like just another reason people should come to DoorGrow Live is I think we attract the most growth oriented property management, business owners in the industry and just being in proximity to all these sort of change makers and people trying new stuff and people experimenting, people willing to invest in themselves and to pay like coaches, like DoorGrow. And then I use all my clients as a mass rapid iteration sort of project. [00:35:05] Jason: Like we're always figuring out more and more stuff and I'm gathering these ideas and so we've got systems in place to just allow us to innovate in this industry a lot faster. And so we're really excited about bringing these kind of things to DoorGrow Live and showcasing it. [00:35:19] Jason: So if you're not part of our program, you're not one of our clients. Come check out the magic at DoorGrow Live. Connect with some of the people there and you might realize you found a home, so yeah, your family might be there. So yeah, entrepreneurs we're different breed of people. We, you know, we take risks, we're willing to try new things, and we're not focused primarily on safety and security. [00:35:39] Jason: We're focused more on fulfillment and freedom and contribution. And so this natural offshoot, entrepreneurs are the most helpful people, especially the healthy ones. When you're in a healthy growth-minded state, you want to benefit and help everybody. You're not gatekeeping information like people are sharing stuff and so yeah, I found the same thing to be true in the high level masterminds, coaches that I work with. [00:36:00] Jason: Like just being around the people in these programs has been probably the biggest benefit more than even learning from the guru or whoever that is sharing stuff sometimes. And so, yeah, proximity.  [00:36:11] Zac: Yeah, I think that's well said. You kind of become an average of the people that you spend most time with. [00:36:15] Zac: So if you're around, you know, someone who's going to be pessimistic about everything, then chances are, not going to try things as much. I mean, that, that was like one of the reasons why I had originally moved from, you know, where I was growing up in New Hampshire. I remember when I was pitching Favor when I was 20 something people were like, "ah, no one's going to pay five bucks for something like that. And how do you know how? You don't know how to code. You can't figure that out. Right? Go get a job like everybody else." And then I kind of moved and found my tribe you know, and in Silicon Valley area and then in Austin, Texas. And then next thing you know, I'm actually doing the thing.  [00:36:53] Jason: I think even if people just come to DoorGrow Live to connect with somebody like you and they can create a relationship with somebody like you or any of the change makers or players that we attract at our event. [00:37:05] Jason: I mean, you've done things that a lot of people would dream of being able to do in business, right. And so come make those connections, come to DoorGrow Live and make some connections because it's going to change your life for sure. So, well Zac, I appreciate you coming on the show. People can connect with your company at utilityprofit.com. [00:37:22] Jason: Do a demo. And it's been great having you here.  [00:37:26] Zac: Hey, thanks so much for having me on Jason.  [00:37:28] Jason: All right, so everybody, if you are struggling to grow your business or you're struggling to deal with operations, reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to have a conversation, see if we might be able to help you with something. [00:37:39] Jason: And that's what we do all day long and we care about our clients. We really want to make sure that everybody succeeds. We only win if you're winning. And so until next time, everybody to our mutual growth, let's all win. Bye everyone. 

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

Why did you decide to own a property management business instead of working for someone else? Did you just want money, or was it something deeper that drove you to become an entrepreneur? In this episode of The Property Management Growth Show, industry growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Rich Walker, Founder of Quik! Forms to discuss adaptability as an entrepreneur and embracing change. You'll Learn [01:55] Entrepreneurial Tendancies from a Young Age [13:49] Reasons for Starting a Business [20:08] Embracing Change and Facing Adversity [30:31] The Power of In-Person Interaction Quotables “ You build something people want, they'll pay you for it.” “There's no value in worry.” “We think we want more money because we think it's going to give us more freedom and fulfillment, but we actually have less fulfillment and less freedom the more money we make.” “If everybody thinks they're right, then my beliefs can be just as right.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Rich: What do you get when you have your best work? [00:00:01] Rich: You get joy, you get fulfillment, you get productivity, you get engagement and you get the highest possible outcome from every person on your team. That's why I'm an entrepreneur more than anything else. [00:00:11] Jason: All right. Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the property management growth show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, impact lives, help others, and you're interested in growing your business and life and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:13] Jason: And my guest today, I'm hanging out with a local Austinite, fellow friend that I know locally, CEO and co founder of Quik! Forms Processing, Rich Walker. Welcome Rich.  [00:01:26] Rich: Hey everybody. Really an honor to be here. Jason. Thanks for having me on your show today.  [00:01:30] Jason: Yeah, glad to have you. [00:01:31] Jason: So you're doing some really cool stuff in business. And it's been great. We're in a mastermind locally together. And and you're going to be speaking to our audience at DoorGrow Live, you know, for those listening, make sure you get your tickets to DoorGrow Live. And you've written some books, like tell everybody, give us some background on Rich and how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and like, what you do. [00:01:55] Rich: So, well, boy, this could be a long story or I'll try to keep it brief. Look, I grew up very poor. I was the product of a broken household, if you will. And I learned very early on that if you make something people want, they'll pay you for it. It's amazing. So I started my first business at age 12. I took a $300 investment and turned it into over $1,100 in one day at an event. [00:02:18] Rich: And I was stunned. I was just struck with all these people handing me fistfuls of cash to buy my product. And I said, "wow, this is what I'm going to be. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to build businesses." [00:02:29] Jason: What was the product at age 12?  [00:02:31] Rich: Oh, man. So I should show it to you. I'd have to go off screen to get it. [00:02:35] Rich: But if you know what surgical tubing looks like stretchy latex tubing, and you know what a pen tip looks like, take the pen tip, shove it into the tube, tie a knot on the other end, and then get a garden hose with a cone shaped nozzle and it blows up a long tube of water. Like a squirt gun. Yeah, we called them water weenies. [00:02:52] Rich: Yeah, I made those. Yeah! Yeah.  [00:02:56] Rich: So, but imagine before the super soaker came out, what were your options? You had water balloons, hand grenades, you had squirt guns that went five feet, you had the hose stuck to the house and then water weenies, which squirted 30 feet and carried gallons of water on your back. [00:03:13] Rich: So you are the king of the water fights.  [00:03:15] Jason: Yeah, and you got a good workout.  [00:03:18] Rich: Yeah, amazing.  [00:03:19] Jason: How long were these tubes? How long would you cut them?  [00:03:23] Rich: The longest cut length would be three feet, but when it filled up, it was nine feet. So imagine, draped around your neck, down to your toes, with water.  [00:03:31] Jason: Nine feet of water filled hose. [00:03:32] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:03:33] Rich: Yeah. So you were just a walking, like fire truck.  [00:03:36] Jason: I just got back from funnel hacking live and Russell Brunson always shares a story of starting by selling potato guns online, like how to build potato guns. This sounds very reminiscent.  [00:03:47] Rich: Yeah, very much. It was a really awesome experience. I mean, honestly, going from having nothing to having money in my hands. [00:03:54] Rich: And actually I saved up money at age 12, just about to turn 13. I saved it until I bought my first car when I turned 16.  [00:04:01] Jason: Wow. Wow. All right. So you ever heard of the marshmallow tests they give kids? I'm not sure. It's like, it's delayed gratification versus instant gratification, right? So they put a marshmallow in front of them and they make them wait with it. [00:04:14] Jason: And they're like, you can eat this marshmallow, but if you don't eat it by the time I get back, then I'll give you two marshmallows or something like this. I think it's how it goes. And most kids fail. They're like, "Oh, I really want that." Or they'll put cookie or whatever it is, you know, showing you saving money, when there's like, you could buy video games as a kid, like whatever, right? That's some serious delayed gratification right there, so.  [00:04:38] Rich: You know, Jason, I got to tell a bigger story here because really this is what happened at age eight, I went to my friend's house and my friend had a radio controlled car. [00:04:46] Rich: It was a kit you had to build yourself, but it would drive 35 miles per hour off road. It was amazing. This is the eighties, right? Yeah. And I wanted that car so bad. And we were so poor. There was no way my parents were going to buy me a $300 car. And in today's money, that's like 12 to 1500 bucks. Okay. Yes. [00:05:03] Rich: So that's not going to happen. So I started saving my money, birthday, Christmas money. I would sell candy around the neighborhood. I would rake leaves for a neighbor and make $2. Anything I could do, anything I could do to save money. It took me four years. To save up the $300. And that summer that I got introduced to water weenies was by my neighbor. He was a supplier to physicians. His son and I played all the time. And he came out and gave us these water weenies to play with, but then he took them back and all the other kids wanted one. So I was kind of observant and I said, "Hey, In your shed, I see a reel of tubing. Can I buy that from you?" [00:05:36] Rich: It was like 25 feet of tubing. "He's like, okay, how much?" It was like 12 bucks or something. Ran home, grabbed the money out of my bank account, gave it to him, went home, started cutting links, destroyed every pen in my house and started selling. And within a day or two, I had sold $50 worth of stuff. So I went and bought another 25 feet and sold another $50 bucks. [00:05:53] Rich: Then I went to summer camp and I rode my bike and squirted every kid I could find had 20 kids chasing me on my bike. And then I'd sell them all the water. So over that course of that summer, I got to the $300 mark and I bought the car. Now, my uncle saw all this behavior and said, "Rich next summer, I'm hosting fourth of July. [00:06:10] Rich: You could have a booth and sell these water weenies there. Would you like to do that?" I'm like, "yeah, absolutely." Months and months go by, go through winter, go into spring, my mom reminds me of this opportunity. And I'm like, okay, so I go to my neighbor, "How much for a thousand feet of tubing?" "300 bucks." [00:06:24] Rich: Guess what I don't have? I don't have 300 anymore.  [00:06:27] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:27] Rich: So I said to him, "Hey, look, your son is about to have his birthday. Wouldn't it be cool if he had this RC car? He loves playing with it. Would you barter with me and trade me for the tubing?" And the guy's a saint. Honestly, I wish I could find him and say thank you because he did it. [00:06:42] Rich: His son got a great car. I got the tubing. I wrote a letter to Scripto pen company and said, "Hey, I'm doing a project. I need some sample pen tips. Would you mind sending me some?" They sent me a box of 5,000 pen tips for free.  [00:06:52] Jason: What?  [00:06:53] Rich: No cost. And so then I had all the materials to put it together and showed up at 4th of July, started selling by 7am, sold out by 1pm. [00:07:01] Rich: And this is why I said I had fist fulls of money. I had people at this, you know, long table. I had people out eight to 10 people deep lined up to buy these things. And it's all I could do is to take money and give them a water weenie. My pockets filled up with cash and my mom would pull the cash out of my pockets and put it in a safe box over and over again that day. [00:07:18] Jason: What were you selling each one for  [00:07:20] Rich: Anywhere from like $1.50-4.00 or something, depending on the length.  [00:07:24] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:25] Rich: Yeah.  [00:07:25] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:26] Rich: It was such an incredible experience. And that's why I said, man, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. So I just knew that I was bitten and I had to do this and look, I'm age 50 now, my company that I own today, Quik! Just celebrated our 23rd anniversary, and I've started 10, about 10 different business ventures and companies since age 12. So I've always just had this desire to fulfill my own sense of freedom and creativity and serve people. Yeah. So yeah, that's really the genesis of it. [00:07:55] Rich: Like you build something people want, they'll pay you for it. And it's an amazing thing.  [00:07:59] Jason: I love it. You see a problem, you saw an opportunity. And lots of other people saw the problem. They just didn't see the opportunity. They're like, man, I would love that one of these. It's nice, you know, and you were able to fill that need. [00:08:12] Jason: So that's a great story. Love that story. That's how you kind of got it like, you know, bit by the bug of entrepreneurism.  [00:08:19] Rich: Yeah. Now, the Quik! company started because in the nineties, I worked at other companies that worked at Arthur Anderson, for example, and I learned technology, especially from like a backend perspective of big tech. How does it all work? How does it flow together? And I decided to get out of tech consulting late in the year 2000.  [00:08:39] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:39] Rich: And in doing that, I really went back to my degree in college, which was finance and said, "I really love finance. Let me help people with their money." So I became a financial advisor. [00:08:47] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:48] Rich: And in doing that. You go out and get your licenses, you work really hard for all that, you work really hard to gain the trust and respect of your first client, and then they finally say, "yes, I will open an account with you," and guess what your reward is? Yeah, fine, you can make a commission that's a reward. [00:09:01] Rich: No, you get to handwrite paperwork. And I thought, man, this sucks. I am not going to make $4 an hour handwriting paperwork for people. I used to charge $200 an hour as a consultant, so how do I fix this problem? And I decided to build software, because I was a technologist, that would fill out my forms. Jason, it was a hack. [00:09:19] Rich: It was a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet with fields overlaid on images. It was just a hack. It just made it work, but everybody around me for six months kept saying, "Rich, give me your software. I hate filling out forms," and I was in this quandary of, "wow, I have found a need. But I want to be a financial advisor. What do I do?" And after six months, I finally said, "okay, let's build the product." So we did our first install in February 11, 2002 and never looked back. I mean, we found out people really wanted this and it's changing people's lives. It was empowering them to do their best work, which is not paperwork. And today we manage a library of over 42,000 forms. [00:09:57] Rich: And we generate over a million forms every month across wealth management industry, serving well over a hundred thousand financial professionals.  [00:10:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:05] Rich: So yeah. Yeah.  [00:10:07] Jason: That's awesome. Yeah. I had a short job. I worked for a while at Verizon, like in their business DSL tech support. Like I was an internet support guy and after every call, it was a call center, after every call that we did, we had to fill out this ridiculous form it just took so much time and we were measured on the time that we were unavailable between calls and how many calls we completed. And so I found some sort of like macro tool because there was only like three, maybe four types of tickets that we would do. [00:10:40] Jason: It was always the same sort of challenges. But we had to fill out all of these fields of ridiculous, stupid stuff. And so I use this macro tool that basically if I type a certain thing, it would just spit out a whole bunch of other stuff and it would go tab from field and fill it all out. And so I set this up because I started to see these patterns. [00:11:00] Jason: And so then I, similar to what you did I solved the problem for myself. So I built this thing that I could then just do this type of ticket, this type of ticket. And then there were other people on the floor and they're like, "man, I'm going to get fired. I can't do this. I can't do this fast enough." [00:11:14] Jason: Well, so then I'm starting to help people. So now I'm like a virus on the floor and the managers didn't like me for some reason. Like my manager did not like that I was doing this. I don't know why. Because maybe he didn't come up with the idea. I don't know. Yeah. Then I'm starting to help other people so they don't get fired, and I'm showing, you know, other people on the floor, how to set this up and how to do this and giving them my formula and, you know, for the script language for how to do this. And they're able to close their tickets out like really fast. They're just like "bloop!", and it's like "vrrrrrr", and they're like, cool next. [00:11:47] Jason: Right. And what was baffling to me at the time is that it was not seen as a positive by my superiors. It was seen as a problem and I'm like you are an idiot and this is where I kind of realized Like a lot of times, you know, you've heard of the Peter principle? Yeah. Which for those listening... [00:12:09] Rich: You're at your highest level of mediocrity.  [00:12:12] Jason: Or incompetence. [00:12:13] Jason: Right?  [00:12:14] Jason: And so, yeah, which means basically people get promoted because they're good at a certain level and then they get promoted again, just beyond their current capacity or ability to perform well. And now they're at a level where they are no longer able to intellectually maybe rise to the occasion or be good. [00:12:32] Jason: And so businesses are just full or rife with all of these people that like, especially big organizations, cause I was at HP. You know, I just saw it everywhere. I always had idiots like above me is what it felt like that were telling me I couldn't do things or slowing me down and I'm like, "don't you see?" [00:12:50] Jason: And then what would happen is months later, that idea that I was trying to push that they were fighting me on was their new idea. They're like, "I have this new idea."  [00:13:01] Rich: What you're explaining is the real truth. And it took me a while to figure this out for why I'm an entrepreneur.  [00:13:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:08] Rich: I want to be able to do my best work and anytime I've worked for others, I've been limited and held back.   [00:13:14] Rich: So I really was seeking a way to empower myself to do my best work. And in my company, in our culture, it boils down to empowering others to do their best work. I want my team to do their best work. I want my vendors and my partners and my customers to all do their best work. Because what do you get when you have your best work? [00:13:31] Rich: You get joy, you get fulfillment, you get productivity, you get engagement and you get the highest possible outcome from every person on your team. That's why I'm an entrepreneur more than anything else. I mean, yeah. Ooh, I'd like to make money. Oh, I want freedom. I want creativity, but honestly, at the core of it, how do I get to do my best? [00:13:49] Jason: I love this. So some of you listening to this episode, you've heard me talk about my framework of the four reasons for starting a business. I call it the four reasons. And this is what makes us different than everyone else on the planet. And we're rare. Entrepreneurs are rare people. We are the minority. [00:14:05] Jason: We feel like we're living on a planet as aliens a lot of times. We're like, "why doesn't everyone think this way?" It's super weird. So entrepreneurs, the reason we start businesses is we want four things. We think we want money, usually in the beginning. But what we really want is what money will give us. [00:14:22] Jason: And that's these things. It's freedom. Well, first is fulfillment. The most important is fulfillment. We want to enjoy life, enjoy what we're doing, make a difference, whatever but we want fulfillment in whatever that means to us. And then second, we want freedom. We want autonomy. Usually in the beginning, we have, we start trying to start a business. [00:14:40] Jason: We think we want more money because we think it's going to give us more freedom and fulfillment, but we actually have less fulfillment and less freedom the more money we make. And so then we start to wake up like, "Hey, this sucks. Like, how do I like be pickier about my clients or how do I change this?" [00:14:56] Jason: You know? But fulfillment and freedom are one and two. Third, once we have those, we want contribution. We want to feel like we're making a difference, having an impact and we want to benefit other people. And that's what a business is designed to do, right? Solve real problems in the marketplace. [00:15:10] Jason: It's contribution. If not, it's snake oil, right? It's taking people's money. So fourth, once we have fulfillment, freedom, contribution, the fourth is we need support. And that's why we build a business because we can't max out on fulfillment, freedom, contribution if we are wearing every hat and we're miserable. [00:15:29] Jason: Yeah. Because we don't want to do everything. Not everything is fun for us. right? There's the pieces you love and there's pieces you just don't love, right? And that's true for every business owner, but we're all different. Like some of us love accounting. Some of us don't love accounting, right? Some of us love sales. [00:15:44] Jason: Some of us don't love sales, right? Some of us love ops. Some of us are bad at ops, right? And so, there is though what I call the fifth reason. This is what makes everyone else different than us. We want this one too, but everyone else in the planet prioritizes this fifth reason over the first four. [00:16:02] Jason: It's safety and security. Oh, right. Yeah. They want that. That's more important than freedom, fulfillment. They will give up freedom. You saw this during the pandemic. Most people were like, "forget your freedoms. I want to feel safe. Give me safety and security." Right. I remember here in, I was in North Austin. I went to Costco during the pandemic and masks were kind of optional, right? They were optional. And I'm walking around Costco without a mask and everyone else has masks on for the most part. And anyone that didn't have a mask, I was like, "Hey, do you own a business?" And they're like, "yeah." And we're looking at each other like we know like the world's gone fucking nuts. Like, what's going on? We had a knowing like, "yeah, everyone's crazy."  [00:16:42] Rich: Man, I wish I'd asked that question. I would have met a lot more entrepreneurs that way. Because I was out there, no mask, any chance I got. Right. I mean, I didn't want confrontation with people. [00:16:51] Jason: And for those listening, there's nothing wrong with this, right? We need both, right? Not everyone can be entrepreneurial. It would be a crazy world, right? We need people that are willing to work for us, right? We need both. And they want the four reasons too. Like nobody's going to say, "Oh, I don't want freedom." But they want safety and security first and that's most people on the planet. [00:17:11] Jason: And so psychologically, entrepreneurs, we're just wired different. We will give up safety and security in order to have freedom and fulfillment.  [00:17:20] Rich: I'll tell you how I did that, Jason.  [00:17:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:22] Rich: So imagine, I'm a tech consultant charging $200 an hour. I'm making $350,000 a year. I'm age 24 or 25, driving my dream car. [00:17:31] Rich: I have everything. Yeah. I go become a financial advisor and I make very little money. I mean, I had savings basically, and then I start the software company. I have no income. I literally say, "I'm going to start this company." I have zero income. I had no house, no wife, no kids. So, I mean, that made it easier. [00:17:49] Rich: And for the first ...  [00:17:51] Jason: people will say "you're nuts". They're already saying he's crazy. But every entrepreneur listening is like we get it.  [00:17:55] Rich: No, that's what you do. I cashed out my 401k. I sold the dream car, cashed out any equity I had in that. I bought a cheaper car, et cetera. [00:18:03] Rich: And then I said, "okay, I'm going to have my dream car back in a year or two." Yeah. In the first four years of my business, my income was $1,000 a month. I mean, I made $12,000 year for four years straight. And so here's the thing. A thousand dollars a month doesn't pay my rent. My rent was $1200 to $1500 during that time. [00:18:21] Jason: Right.  [00:18:22] Rich: So here's the question that you'd ask yourself. How did you sleep at night? And I'll tell you this one thing. Every time I paid rent on the first of the month, I actually did not know how I would have the money in 30 days to pay rent again, right? So how do you sleep at night? I slept great. It never bothered me. [00:18:39] Rich: I didn't lose one minute of sleep over that financial burden. Okay. I just looked at it as that's another tool I've got to figure out how to make money with this. And there were things that happened. It's like sometimes a big credit card bill came through when somebody bought our software or sometimes I borrowed money off the credit card to pay the bill. [00:18:58] Rich: It was just different things happen. And you know what, in those four years? I was never late once. My wife and I contrast. She could not do that. She just cannot live that way, she could never have that kind of risk profile for me. I was just like, "yeah, whatever. I'll figure it out every single time." [00:19:13] Jason: So you trusted. You trusted yourself and maybe God, I don't know, but you trusted your ability to create, right? You knew you had confidence you could create money.  [00:19:24] Rich: Yeah. And I learned that being poor. I mean, in college, I went to USC, one of the most expensive schools around, but I paid my own way to go there. [00:19:33] Rich: And during college, there were so many weeks, I can't even count them, where I'd wake up on Monday with exactly $5 to my name. That's all the money I had access to. And I had to get to Friday before I got my paycheck and I had to pay for parking and food, et cetera. I was so scrappy. I would look at what ads were in the paper and I find people doing focus groups that would pay me $10 for 30 minutes of my time to go pretend to shop and pick products. [00:19:58] Rich: So I'd go make an extra 10 bucks and now I had triple my money to get through the week. I did so many creative things. So I knew at that point, like, yeah, money is just a tool. We'll figure it out. We'll always make it work. So, you know, I want to bring this up because this is the thing, you know, you mentioned at the start of the show that I'm going to be at your event, the #DoorGrowShow, right? [00:20:15] Rich: DoorGrow Live. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And what I'm going to talk about is one of my books and it's called, "It's My Life!". I'm going to hold it up for anybody watching. "It's My Life! I can have..." sorry, there's two books. "I can change if I want to." My other book's called "It's my life! I can have the job I want," but I'm going to talk about change. Because one of the questions inherent to this problem of how do you go through these hardships? [00:20:38] Rich: How do you go through these struggles, which would stress most people out like crazy? Comes down to your ability to handle change.  [00:20:46] Rich: And it starts with you. Adaptability. Yeah. Now, look, I was forced into it because. I'm 50, but I've moved 33 times in my life. I had moved 29 times by the time I was 32. [00:20:58] Rich: Wow.  [00:20:59] Rich: And I was forced to move as a kid. I had no choice about that. I was forced to make new friends. I was forced to go into new schools and new cities and new states.  [00:21:06] Jason: Military family or...? [00:21:08] Rich: No. Divorces. Job transfers, etc.  [00:21:11] Jason: That's a lot of change, a lot of turmoil. Yeah.  [00:21:14] Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really a very challenging childhood that I don't look back on with any negativity towards, but I was forced to learn how to change and adapt to change. [00:21:25] Rich: And out of that, around age 12, I developed a methodology for how I could change myself and the behaviors and the feelings I had. Because I started to look at the world. This actually comes from religion. I mean, you brought up God. My father was a minister in a church when I was born, but it was very extreme. It was considered a cult. [00:21:41] Rich: My stepfather was in the Catholic church, so we attended Catholic services. I lived in Salt Lake City, Utah. I've been to plenty of Mormon events, the LDS church. I know all about that. I've been part of other types of church.  [00:21:53] Rich: I grew up Mormon actually. So I was exposed to all these different religions. And what I saw was everybody said they're right. [00:22:01] Rich: And I'm not taking issue with that. I'm not trying to say one's better than the other, but just as an observation, if everybody thinks they're right, then my beliefs can be just as right. And that empowered me to say, "what do I want to believe about the world?" How do I want to choose beliefs that will help me be the best I can be? [00:22:18] Rich: And simultaneously at age 12, my mom was going through a huge awakening in herself. She was reading books by Dr. Wayne Dyer and all sorts of self improvement books, because she wanted to get better. And she was sharing those lessons with my brother and I. So I was learning through osmosis. I was learning through observing my mom go through these changes, but I was also observing the world around me, and I realized I can make changes to myself and become better, which means I could have lower stress. So let's go all the way back to the story of how do I start a company with no money? How do I believe I don't have to be stressed out about the money? And it comes down to your core beliefs of what you actually believe about your ability to go figure it out or your ability to let it stress you out or what even stress means in your life. [00:23:02] Rich: I'm sure you've talked about this with your group here. There's no value in worry. Like worrying about a problem, what does that actually get you? It gets you anxiety and stress. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't add value into your life. So therefore I looked at it and said, how do you not worry? [00:23:19] Rich: How do you not stress out about things? So what I'm excited to share with your audience when I get up on stage is how to use my methodology to become more resilient, to accept change for what it is, to learn how to control the change so that you can be the person you want to become. And therefore you can go through the hardships, the challenges, the biggest potential failures or actual failures that you're going through in your business and in your life and win on the other side, because you become a better person through the whole thing. [00:23:47] Jason: Love it. Yeah. I mean, running a business can be tough. It can be very hard. Entrepreneurs go through a lot of challenges. I often joke DoorGrow was built on thousands of failures, you know? But we have that hope and we keep moving forward. And so being resilient is essential. [00:24:06] Jason: Being adaptable is essential. Otherwise it's just takes a toll. It takes a toll on our body. It takes a toll on our health. We don't make progress. We don't have as effective of decision making and there's like, if we're not in a state of worry, not in a state of stress, we make infinitely better decisions. [00:24:24] Jason: Like decisions made from fear, decisions made from stress generally are almost never good decisions. So, and if you think about all the decisions we make on a daily basis in our own business, If you just have a healthy mindset, you will be at a very different place, even in a short period of time. And I've had periods of stagnancy. [00:24:43] Jason: I've had periods of hardship and I've had periods of like dramatic growth.  [00:24:47] Rich: Yeah. And transition. I love the graphic and I'm sure everybody's seen it where two guys are digging and one guy is giving up and the other guy keeps going and the diamonds are right there. The gold is right there. Okay. Right. The guy who gives up is one foot away from the gold and the guy who keeps digging hits it because he just went that one extra foot. [00:25:07] Rich: And to me, that is that point of exasperation where you're saying, "Oh my gosh, this is the worst day of my life. The worst month of my life. This is so challenging. It's, everything's wrong. And you embrace the change and suddenly things change faster." Now you may not strike the gold that you want. You may not win the biggest account you want, but I mean, look, you can read the biography on Elon Musk with his story of SpaceX and Tesla, and he was betting the farm on both of them. He was down to two weeks of payroll, I think when NASA came in with a one and a half billion dollar check to fund the rocket boosters they wanted. Like he is at the absolute lowest point and boom, the greatest thing happens. [00:25:42] Jason: You know, when we take these risks, they create great stories. And even if it doesn't work out, the risk, it still makes a great story. It does. Because we're going to figure it out. The one thing is if we're committed, if we're committed to getting the result, it's inevitable. [00:25:56] Jason: It will eventually come. It might take a little longer, but yeah, if we're committed and man, like, yeah, he took some big risks. He was committed.  [00:26:04] Rich: Yeah, but it comes back to you. I've met so many entrepreneurs who do stress out. They lose sleep. In fact, one of the most common things I hear from entrepreneurs is, "Hey, what makes you lose sleep at night?" Nothing. Honestly, my three year old makes me lose sleep, but losing business, man, it doesn't bother me in the same way that I think a lot of other people do. And that's because I know who I am. I know what my beliefs are and I've challenged myself to change the ones that don't work.  [00:26:31] Rich: I'll give you one other example here, Jason, to think about, and again, this is not a judgment towards anybody. [00:26:36] Rich: I was in an audience of entrepreneurs, man, I don't know, 12, 15 years ago. And the guy on stage said, "okay, everybody here, raise your hand. If you have ADHD," I was maybe one of two people who didn't raise their hands. I've never been diagnosed with ADHD and I refuse to accept the label of ADHD for whatever purpose the label means. [00:26:55] Rich: What if though, what if ADHD is your superpower? And what if the label of ADHD of treating it with drugs and you can't stay focused and still is a negative by all the other aliens on this planet? Because you said as entrepreneurs, we feel alien. What if it's everybody else's assessment of you versus your own? [00:27:12] Rich: What if your own assessment was your ADHD is actually your superpower?  [00:27:16] Rich: Sure. You've got the ability to hyper focus. You've got the ability to like do something unique or exceptional. Yeah.  [00:27:22] Rich: Or switch gears on 10 conversations in a day, because that's what happens during your day as an entrepreneur.  [00:27:28] Jason: Yeah. [00:27:28] Rich: Right. And adaptability. So I look at that again, going back to how I view your belief systems and my book on change, is that you can take something that a lot of people look at as, "Oh, that's harmful for our relationship or whatever. I say, no, I'm going to turn it into my superpower." [00:27:44] Rich: And take a different view of it because it's you. It's not me. It's not my judgment of you. It's your own judgment of you. How do you want to be? Yeah, I'm excited to share this with everybody when we get up there.  [00:27:55] Jason: Yeah, it'll be awesome to have you there. You know, the reason I'm having you come and other speakers that have nothing to do with property management, by the way, for the property managers, is I find that it's never really a business issue that's holding people back in business. [00:28:09] Jason: And I mean, I've talked to thousands of property managers, I've coached hundreds. And when I dig in it's never that they're focusing too little time on their business that's the problem. It's always related to mindset, self belief. You know, that's really what's holding them back. And so I think this, this'll, this'll be really awesome. [00:28:31] Jason: I'm really excited for you to benefit our clients that'll be at this event. And those of you that are not yet clients that are coming to DoorGrow Live, I think this'll be a game changer for them to just kind of shift their mindset a little bit and increase their resiliency. So, yeah, I'm excited for that. [00:28:46] Rich: Yeah. I am equally excited because you said one of the four pillars is contribution. And I didn't write this book for my business. It has nothing to do with software and efficiency. I wrote this book because my sister and her husband at the time were at the beginning of a divorce and they were both coming to me independently to ask me questions and I'm helping them. [00:29:04] Rich: And they both independently said, "Rich, you should write a book about this someday." And it was on Thanksgiving that year when they both tried to use me as a conduit to each other, where I said, "I'm fed up, I'm done." And honestly, Jason, I just spent the next whatever days until the 23rd of December writing the book. [00:29:20] Rich: I stopped watching TV and it just flooded out of me. I never thought I'd write a book. I don't even like reading books. I listen. So I wrote the book before Christmas and then I hand bound it and gave it to them as a gift and it went nowhere. It was lost on them.  [00:29:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:33] Rich: And then I realized, man, I've got this thing. [00:29:35] Rich: I've got to get it out there to the world and help other people, because this is one of the ways I get to contribute in the world. Yeah. My business contributes too, and I love that, but at the core of who I am personally, I want to empower people to be their best version of themselves. Yeah. I can do that with the book. [00:29:50] Rich: I can do that with the podcast I have. I can do that with the software that we generate. There's a lot of ways to have that effect. And that is my lightning rod. So when you ask me to come speak, it's an easy yes, because this is an opportunity for me to help others become their best version of themselves. [00:30:06] Rich: Maybe by giving them a tool set that they can then use to implement for themselves and create the person they've always wanted to be, or they know is inside of them that's afraid to come out or just maybe just one behavioral change. I don't know. It's up to them.  [00:30:19] Jason: I love books. I think books are awesome. [00:30:21] Jason: I read lots and lots of books. I'm reading books all the time. Like I usually have like three or four books I'm reading at a time because maybe I am ADHD, but you know, I get bored of something and I then focus on something else or whatever. I love books. What I've noticed though, because I've gotten to be around a lot of the people that have written some of these books... I pay a lot of money to go to masterminds or events. Like I just got to see Tony Robbins at Funnel Hacking Live. It was really great. I learned some awesome stuff. Right. And I think there's some magic in being able to be around and be in the energy space of the person that is giving you this idea. [00:30:58] Jason: It's not the same. Like being in person and doing stuff, I've noticed this weird thing that people absorb information different. They perceive it different. It's not the same as being on video like this. I've taught lots of people through video and over again, when they would come show up to DoorGrow Live or come in person, things would just click in a different way. [00:31:16] Jason: And I started to call it, mentally I called it the 'real bubble.' I have to pierce this bubble that it's not real. I think our unconscious mind doesn't perceive this as real.  [00:31:26] Rich: Right.  [00:31:27] Jason: Right. But you and I met in person, so we know we're real people. So our unconscious mind is like, "Oh Rich and Jason. We're real people." So we know this, our brain knows this, but until I meet somebody, fist bump them, high five, give them a hug, whatever, like, and they see me in person, my clients don't get as big of results.  [00:31:45] Rich: Yeah.  [00:31:45] Jason: Their unconscious mind is somehow like "Oh, this is that digital universe or TV universe. That's not real. I don't know." So if they come and like experience this... even if you get his book, like get his book, but I'm excited for people to be in your energy field to experience you and for you to teach this and there's something you could say the same words that are exactly in your book, but people will absorb it differently. [00:32:08] Jason: I've seen this over and over again, and they will get so much more out of this. That's why I'm excited to have you come present this. So.  [00:32:14] Rich: Yeah, there's no replacing face to face. There's absolutely no replacement for the energy and the connection that's made when you're face to face. I 100 percent agree and I wish we could do more of it. So i'm glad for the event and the opportunity to do it in my hometown. [00:32:29] Rich: It's great.  [00:32:30] Jason: Yeah, it'd be an easy drive not too far. So yeah All right. So, cool. I'm really excited about this. So for those of you that are listening go to DoorGrowLive.Com get your tickets. This is different than other property management events. Property management events, usually people go to these conferences and they're really there to like hang out at the bar and escape their life and their problems. [00:32:52] Jason: DoorGrow Live's different and you can go to the bar. There's bars at the Kalahari resort. You can do that and you can hang out with people. But people come to our event because they want to be around other people in that space of other people that are really growth minded. And that's who I attract in the industry. [00:33:08] Jason: We have the most growth minded property management business owners. Like these are people that are focused on being a better person, a better husband, a better father, better wife, better parent, you know, whatever. Like, and they're focused on you know, taking care of their team, making a difference in the industry. [00:33:24] Jason: And I really believe good property managers can change the world. They can have a massive ripple effect. They affect all their clients, the investors' lives. They positively impact the tenants' lives. They can have a big ripple effect. They can affect a lot of people. And that's exciting is inspiring for me to be able to, you know, Help benefit them and bring that to the table. [00:33:44] Jason: So these are leaders. These are people that affect families. And so, you know, by you coming and presenting, I think there's definitely a ripple effect and a positive impact that can happen. So if you're a property manager listening and you don't care about any of that stuff, then just don't go to DoorGrow Live, because we don't want you there anyway. [00:34:00] Jason: All right. So Rich, any quick tip that you could give to people before we wrap up our conversation and then how can people, you know, get ahold of you and, or you know, or whatever you want to plug. Floor's yours  [00:34:12] Rich: I'm going to leave everybody with one of my core beliefs. That is an empowering one. [00:34:17] Rich: And it's this: confidence is knowledge of yourself. We all want more confidence, right?  [00:34:22] Rich: And the reason I call it knowledge of yourself is because you should be able to take confidence and apply it to any given situation. It's not a hundred percent confident all the time. It's confident about something you're doing. [00:34:33] Rich: My typing speed's near a hundred words per minute. I have absolute confidence in my ability to type, for example, right?  [00:34:39] Jason: Yeah.  [00:34:40] Rich: My, my other skills may not be the same. So how do you build confidence? It's you build knowledge of yourself and it's a lot of what we've been talking about is your own personal growth and who you are and all that's going to lead to more confidence. [00:34:53] Rich: So that's just one of the things I'll share. Best way to find me probably LinkedIn. I'm the Quik! Forms CEO and that's Q U I K. There is no C in the word 'quick' for my company. You could try to email me as well. rwalker@quikforms.Com. You could spell it with a C because we own both domains, but yeah, if you reach out to me on LinkedIn, there's one thing you should do, send me a personalized note, tell me why you want to meet me because I'm very happy to meet you and share my network with you. But if you're trying to sell me and spam me, I don't answer those. So just give me a personal note and I'm very happy to talk to you.  [00:35:23] Jason: Just say, "Hey, I heard about you on the DoorGrow podcast and you know, the property management growth podcast like..."  [00:35:30] Rich: Yeah. And I'll look, I'll plug one little thing. I don't know how relevant it is to your audience, but my podcast is called The Customer Wins. And I talked to business leaders about how they help their customers win, how they overcome challenges of growth, how they create a really excellent customer experience. [00:35:45] Rich: And about 20 percent of my guests come in with totally different perspectives. I had a custom suit broker on, I had a golf pro, I had a magician and the majority of people in the financial services space. But I'm telling you, there's a lot you can learn about building a better customer experience from listening to people talk about it and hear about it. [00:36:03] Rich: So I've studied that a lot for several years. Like that's, it's a big deal to me. I mean, you have to, if you're running a coaching business, coaching businesses are generally high churn. Education businesses are really like a low engagement. Yeah. So I've had to figure a lot of things out to make this go really well,  [00:36:19] Rich: so, yeah. [00:36:20] Rich: Yeah. Well, I mean, I really don't care about how many subscribers or listens I get on my podcast. That's not what I care about. I want people to get value. Yeah. So if you get value from it, awesome. Let me know. Awesome. Very cool.  [00:36:32] Jason: 110 words per minute. It's pretty fast. Do you type on QWERTY or did you change your keyboard? [00:36:37] Rich: No, I type on a normal keyboard. At one point I was at 115. Right now I'm around 100. I bought a device called a Kara quarter, which is a totally different configuration where you can type about 300 words per minute, but I've yet to learn it new skill. I'm just not picking on yet.  [00:36:51] Jason: So. I hear a lot of world typing speed records are set in Dvorak and I switched to Dvorak simply because my wrist started hurting when I was going through college. [00:37:02] Jason: So I actually pop all the keys off all my keyboards and rearrange them into Dvorak. So I know I'm a nerd. So, and you just change the setting. On Mac books and Mac keyboards, it's like doing brain surgery. It'd be really careful, but for the geeks out there. Maybe you'd appreciate this, but it has the most commonly used vowels on the home row of the left hand and the most commonly used consonants on the home row of the right hand. [00:37:27] Jason: Oh, that makes sense. And so world speed record. So, and it took me like a month to just get used to it. Like you would pick it up really fast. So how fast are you? I'm not that fast. I just did it because my wrists were hurting. I actually don't type that much. Honestly, you know, I'm like talking and drawing a lot more than I'm typing, but I'm probably faster than I would be with QWERTY. [00:37:50] Jason: So I don't know. I've never really like done a speed test or, you know, typing test to see, but I don't think I'd beat you. That's my guess, your QWERTY handicap. So, cause QWERTY was designed to slow down typewriters.  [00:38:04] Rich: Like the hammer strike colliding. Yeah. Of the old type that, yeah. So I'll leave you with a fun fact. [00:38:11] Rich: The average typing speed in my company is about 85 words per minute.  [00:38:14] Jason: Nice. Okay. It's pretty good.  [00:38:15] Rich: Tell you there's people faster than me here. Yes.  [00:38:18] Jason: Yeah. Cool. Well, Hey Rich, great to have you on here. Appreciate you hanging out with me and I'm excited to have you at DoorGrow Live.  [00:38:25] Jason: My pleasure. And thank you for having me today, Jason. [00:38:27] Jason: All right. So for those that are, you know, struggling with growth, you're wanting to figure out how to grow your property management business, or you're just getting stuck in the operational challenges. You're tired of telling your team all the time, thinking, "why won't they just think for themselves" and frustrated and you're dealing with operational systems challenges to get to that next level, reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:38:49] Jason: We might be able to change your life. So, go to DoorGrow. com. And if you'd like to join our free community and Facebook group and, you know, learn about us get access to you know, some free stuff, go to doorgrowclub.Com to join our community. And of course, go check out DoorGrowLive.Com, get your tickets. [00:39:08] Jason: It's going to be in May and we would love to see there in person. And a little bit of that DoorGrow magic is going to change your life. We'll see you there. Bye everyone.

In a world where your potential clients are constantly inundated with marketing content, how do you create trust and ensure your property management business sticks out? In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management expert Jason Hull sits down with Dan Lievens, Founder of Share One, to talk about the benefits of collecting and utilizing client testimonial videos. You'll Learn [01:56] Getting Started as an Entrepreneur [08:41] The Impact of Social Poof and Positive Reviews [15:39] How to Ask Your Clients for Video Testimonials [24:53] Handling Objections and Retaining Clients Tweetables “Marketing is always evolving as well. Like it's not like you learn to do it once and then you're done forever.” “If I say it, no one believes it because it's my business, but if my clients say it, that's the ultimate social proof.” “The ability to be able to create human connection in any marketing or any business, I think is absolutely critical today.” “A lot of people think, "Well I have a skill in doing something. Maybe I could start a business doing that thing," but the skill is the technician-level work.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Dan: Even if you have a solid business model, like property management, for example, which is obviously needed you know, how do you communicate that? [00:00:06] Dan: How do you attract the right people? And so it's a constant exercise of being able to put yourself in a position of your customers.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. All right. My guest today is Dan Lievens. Dan, welcome to the show.  [00:01:23] Dan: So glad to be here and looking forward to meeting your amazing community here. Thank you.  [00:01:29] Jason: Awesome. So Dan and I, we met at a local mastermind in the Austin area, which is really cool because I need more friends and I was like, how can I meet some? I'm in all these different masterminds, but I'm like you're traveling all over the US I'm like, I don't get to hang out with any of these people that often. So yeah, so I joined a local one and there's some really cool people in that group, which is really awesome. [00:01:53] Jason: So Dan's one of them and Dan, why don't you give us a little bit of background on yourself as an entrepreneur and then we'll get into what you do.  [00:02:02] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So, this is actually my 12th business and in a variety of different industries from technology to health and wellness. [00:02:12] Dan: And my last big venture was opening up coworking facilities in the Philadelphia area. So I was one of the first people to open coworking facilities there and basically catering to startups and small businesses. And we very quickly became a business incubator and a business accelerator and supporting, you know, small startups and getting going right? [00:02:35] Dan: And what I noticed pretty quickly was there is a pretty high rate of failure, and the rate of failure was primarily due to not necessarily the idea of being bad but more the lack of the ability to communicate the value proposition. So that's when I kind of pivoted and said, "Hey, how can I continue growing my impact and helping these folks?" [00:02:56] Dan: That's when I started getting into marketing, really helping them be able to communicate a little bit better in terms of why they do what they do and really meeting the clients where they're at. And so we started getting into video production and pre pandemic, we had a huge video studio with audience, live audiences and all sorts of recording stuff. [00:03:18] Dan: And then the pandemic hit and that's when we kind of realized that, "Hey, at the end of the day, yes, fancy videos are good to have, but what's really going to help people move the needle is social proof. So how can we create a service for businesses to be able to leverage social proof, in other words, video or testimonials basically, to give consumers exactly what they're looking for?" [00:03:42] Dan: So if you're in a market to, you know, rent an apartment or to buy something somewhere, the first thing you do is you look at reviews and So that's how Share One began is really being able to help businesses capture legitimate social proof to grow their businesses.  [00:04:00] Jason: Yeah, awesome. Business can be tough. And like you're saying, there's a lot of good ideas out there, or there's a lot of people that think they have good ideas and you know, I've noticed not everybody tests those ideas. They just, they think the idea is so good, they're like, "everybody else has to love it." And they're surprised when nobody else has the same taste as them. You know? Other people don't love it. Or there's so many pieces that go into it kind of like the book The E Myth Revisited, a lot of people think, "Well I have a skill in doing something. Maybe I could start a business doing that thing," but the skill is the technician level work. Usually like "I can bake a cake, so maybe I should start a bakery business," you know? And then they're like, "Oh, accounting, marketing, sales, prospecting, like all the details, inventory, all the stuff besides baking a cake is where they get hung up on and they get frustrated. [00:04:59] Jason: And then there's just people that are just really bad marketers. They just don't know how to get the message across. Sometimes you run into the opposite problem though, right? Like I've had coaches and people I've worked with that were really great marketers, but their stuff wasn't super great. [00:05:14] Jason: I've had that situation happen as well. But even if they were great marketers and their stuff wasn't great, they still were making money... unfortunately. [00:05:25] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. You know, most entrepreneurs, you know, me included, we find a passion, we find a purpose and we come up with some kind of a amazing technology or whatever that may be. [00:05:35] Dan: And then, you know, our personality is just jump in and do it, you know. And it's so valuable now to really kind of take a step back and understand, you know, what the consumer wants and it goes beyond that. I think it really goes into, you know, even if you have a solid business model, like property management, for example, which is obviously needed you know, how do you communicate that? [00:05:58] Dan: How do you attract the right people? And so it's a constant exercise of being able to put yourself in a position of your customers. Right. And then even as time changes as AI comes in, which hopefully we can talk about a little bit today the landscape changes and consumer behavior patterns changes and what people are looking for changes as well. [00:06:18] Dan: So to, to have that finger on the pulse of, "Hey, what are my prospects actually thinking? What's going through their head?" Is a constant exercise that I think every single entrepreneur needs to do. And then from that perspective, it's like, okay, how do I reverse engineer what's in their mind? [00:06:34] Dan: How do I meet them where they are? Create the language and then slowly kind of invite them into the product and service that you're offering.  [00:06:41] Jason: Yeah. Marketing is always evolving as well. Like it's not like you learn to do it once and then you're done forever. Right? Like what I did to grow DoorGrow in the beginning doesn't work anymore. [00:06:53] Jason: Right? Some of the things that we were doing, like I had LinkedIn automation that was able to generate profile views. And then people would look at the profile view and go, "Oh!" And it's like "somebody viewed your profile." So they go look at mine, which I had set up like a sales page and then I was getting messages and then I would message them, "Hey..." I was getting friend requests or whatever you call it, connections on LinkedIn. [00:07:16] Jason: And then I would send them a message. "What prompted you to reach out?" And then they started clamping down on how many views you could generate a day. And like, then the automation, like, and eventually that whole mechanism pretty much died, you know, and then it was Facebook groups for a while. For a while, the Facebook algorithm was heavily aligned towards Facebook groups. [00:07:34] Jason: So that went crazy for us there was a time where it was like, you know It was just, you know, organic Google was doing its thing. We still get business through that, but you know, it's always evolving as well, which is a challenge. Now, one thing that has always worked well, always, is testimonials that has always worked well for us. [00:07:56] Jason: And so we have more testimonials. I realized this early on. If I say it, no one believes it because it's my business, but if my clients say it, that's the ultimate social proof. That's the ultimate evidence. And so gathering testimonials has always been a like a focus of us at DoorGrow and we have more video testimonials than any other coach or consultant in the property management space. [00:08:24] Jason: I mean, we've been doing this a long time, but we're also really good. But the challenge is how do you show that you're really good in a way that people believe it? Well, I just capture other people's results. So we're always having clients share their wins on our calls and then we're recording it and stuff like that. [00:08:41] Jason: So what, what prompted you to start to focus on testimonials as a business idea?  [00:08:48] Dan: So I do have, you know, pretty strong tech background. So being able to leverage the technology and human resources to be able to give businesses truly what they need. Just as an example we'll take care of the entire invitation interview process with the real producer and edit everything down for less than 200 a piece, right? [00:09:09] Dan: So our next competitors to do the same thing. are $3,000 to $5,000. So we've really, you know, grown this entire business to be able to scale and give businesses exactly what it is that they need. And as I mentioned before, over the years, it's like, yes, you can get super fancy with different things. But video testimonials today by far are the strongest piece of marketing content that you can use as you just mentioned. There's research that says there's an up to 62 percent increase in conversions. So the conversion could be a schedule, a call or schedule, a visit, or, you know, fill in the form. An increase of 62 percent if you start showing video testimonials on pages. [00:09:51] Dan: And today, recent research also shows that 82 percent of consumers have some level of suspicion towards written reviews. That includes Google, Yelp. Amazon today employs 12,000 full time employees just to track down fake reviews. So, you know, talking about market change, right? So that is definitely something that's changing. [00:10:10] Dan: And so being able to capture somebody in the comfort of their homes or their offices, truly speaking from their heart and sharing where they were before and how they met you and what your lives look like today and sharing that transformation is, you know, ultimately the most powerful thing you can do because it's believable, right? [00:10:29] Jason: Yeah, it's reality. It's not AI. It's not you know, even text testimonials, like on Amazon, there's lots of fake reviews. Like, you can have fake text. Somebody could type out anything. You got to chat GPT. "Type out a fake review that sounds credible," you know, or something like this. [00:10:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:47] Dan: So be super careful with that. If anybody out there is, you know, starting out and you're looking for some kind of social proof on your website or anything, the FTC had a new bill in October really cracking down on people that are using fake reviews, $27,000 fine, and just some really crazy stuff. [00:11:05] Dan: That's, you know, consumer protection.  [00:11:07] Jason: You have to be able to back it up. So, yeah, you put some text on something with a testimonial, if you have the video original of that, you're good, right? [00:11:15] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, in my company, we take a lot of care in terms of certifying that every single video that we conduct is a true human transformation. [00:11:24] Dan: So it's a critical component, but at the end of the day, it's like, you know, any listeners today. What's the first thing that you do when you go on Amazon? You look at the number of reviews, look at the number of stars. Is that like four? Is it four and a half? Or is it five? Right? [00:11:36] Dan: And then we scroll down and say, does anybody have any videos? And do these things look legitimate? Right? It's, that's the first thing that we, that anybody does when purchasing something new. And that's part of human nature, right? Dr. Robert Cialdini has a really famous bestseller book called Influence. [00:11:52] Dan: I don't know if you've read that. It's all about the psychology of persuasion. And in there, he mentions that, you know, out of 95 percent of all consumers are what they call imitators and only 5 percent are initiator. So what that means is only 5 percent of people will be open and willing to go be that first person to try something, right? [00:12:15] Dan: Yeah. 95 percent of consumers are waiting for some kind of social proof. They're imitating somebody else's results.  [00:12:22] Jason: That's why the bandwagon approach is so effective. Most people on the planet want safety and security. It's more important to them than freedom or fulfillment in life. [00:12:35] Jason: They want safety and security first. Those people are not entrepreneurs They work for entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are a small percentage of people and they value freedom and fulfillment over safety and security. We want that too, but our priority is in a different order.  [00:12:50] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, even attracting tenants or you know, bigger decisions to there's especially with the age of AI. [00:13:01] Dan: So I personally believe that we're going into next six months to a year. I mean, things are moving so quickly right now is that there is going to be a revolution or direct kind of already is of like humans against bots, right? So the ability to be able to create human connection in any marketing or any business, I think is absolutely critical today. [00:13:22] Jason: And  [00:13:22] Dan: most people aren't doing it. So you can definitely be ahead of your competition if you start leveraging and building that human connection into your marketing. And one of the easiest way of doing that is allowing your happy clients to tell a story.  [00:13:35] Jason: Yeah, I totally believe that. I think, you know, that all the interactions that AI can do are going to put a premium on humanity. Human connection and human conversation and human relationship is going to be a premium luxury product in some way. And so that's one way to set yourself apart always is to go deeper and to show care  [00:14:03] Dan: Yeah. [00:14:04] Jason: Most companies are going to leverage ai and people are going to leverage ai to go wider but it's not going to have the same depth AI doesn't have that soul. Might get there. [00:14:14] Jason: Yeah, I can see that. And that'll be important. The other challenge I've noticed though, with gathering testimonials is that if I do it, It feels a little awkward and it feels a little forced. Hey, what do you think about my business, you know? And so I think there's an advantage in what you're doing. And then like I know what it takes. Like we have somebody on my team that can edit video and can reach out and like do interviews. And like this is a difficult thing for the typical business owner to like go and do. It's like almost a whole nother thing, a whole nother business or something that we've had to incorporate over the years. And our best testimonials are the unprompted things that we randomly captured during our calls, which we do three, one hour calls weekly coaching clients, group calls. And we just. Have the whole thing recorded. So we capture stuff constantly, just unsolicited, unprompted, great things. [00:15:14] Jason: But when I have to go ask the client, "Hey, how did you like this event?" It just gets awkward and it's not as effective and they can't think of what to say. And they're like, oh yeah, it's really good. And I'm like, "no, tell me about all the problems you had and tell me about all the success we've helped you create." [00:15:31] Jason: But in that moment, they're like, "oh my gosh, I'm taking a test right now in front of a camera. I don't know what to say." And then I don't get something good. So.  [00:15:39] Dan: Yeah, there's quite an art to doing that. And the word awkward definitely sticks out like a sore thumb from the invitation, like asking your people, "Hey, would you record a video testimonial?" All the way to interviewing them as well. [00:15:53] Dan: So we take a slightly different approach. And the invitation, we have a 47 percent success rate in getting your clients to show up for an interview. And that's all about the way our white glove invitation process works. [00:16:06] Jason: This is like all of their clients that they give you their information, you reach out and you can get about half to give you a full testimonial. [00:16:16] Dan: Yeah. [00:16:17] Jason: It's an amazing stat that I'm just saying, by the way, everybody, imagine if you got half of all of your clients to give you testimonials, you would look like an amazing business.  [00:16:27] Dan: So whether you're doing it yourself or somebody else, let me just give you a couple of pointers. We never use the words "video testimonial." [00:16:34] Dan: So it's always something along the lines of, "Hey, I realized that, you know, you've been living here for a month and you seem really happy." Or, you know, "you've recently had a transformation...  [00:16:44] Jason: We've managed your property for a while.  [00:16:45] Dan: Yep. So think something along those lines and say, "Hey you know, there are a couple of really cool individuals that we're trying to bring into our community, and they're on the fence about moving here, if they could hear firsthand what it's like living here from somebody like you, I think you'd have, you know, great neighbors, right?" Something along those lines. "Would you be open to meeting with one of our producers just for a quick 15 minute chat over video, just to ask you a few questions about your stay here? And you know, your story can be truly inspiring to others. And maybe you'll meet some new neighbors," something along those lines, right? So really getting creative and the invitation don't ask for video testimonials, really about, hey, how can you as the client contribute to somebody else's wellbeing, right? That's another human nature thing that's important. And then being able to pass it off to say, "Hey, when you meet with my producer," so it becomes less of you know, it's almost like if I said, "Jason, I'm going to send a news crew to your house tomorrow to interview you."" [00:17:41] Dan: You'd be like, "Oh my God, great!" Like you feel honored. Right? So that's the kind of invitation that we're trying to create here too.  [00:17:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:47] Dan: And then honoring their time, honoring their stories and being a super, super easy, you know, real human being kind of conducting the interview and our 15 minute interview, it gets edited down to, you know, sometimes 60 seconds, maybe two minutes tops just for the golden sound bites that you need to help your your free marketing conversions. [00:18:04] Dan: So yeah, don't go out and ask for video testimonials. That's not going to go over very well. Just get creative with the invitation.  [00:18:10] Jason: Yeah. Good tip. So explain how your service works and what it is and what it's called. And like, so that people can understand the advantage that this can give them.  [00:18:21] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. [00:18:22] Dan: So we're a membership model. We are currently $189 per month to be a client of Share One. And we take care, as I mentioned before, the invitation. So we'll invite your clients. We'll remind them, answer any questions, scheduling and all that. And then basically schedule a call with one of our producers. [00:18:39] Dan: All of our producers are going to be highly trained on the specifics of what you're looking for. So your branding you know, what locations you're trying to fill, whatever that may be our producers already know going into the interview, what the soundbites are you looking for? And we'll basically coach them into answering questions. [00:18:55] Dan: So we'll help them with their cameras a little bit, their lighting. And say, Hey, why don't you finish this sentence and, you know, make sure it doesn't ramble on and on. So we're literally producers looking for these soundbites. So we'll coach them into basically saying the things that we need them to say. [00:19:09] Dan: And that 15 minute interview gets edited down. We add captions and then we deliver that back to you. And from inside of our portal, you can easily say, "Hey, this is a cool testimonial. I want to run it as an Instagram Reel or Facebook ad or anything like that. And we'll recut and reedit everything for you. [00:19:27] Dan: So we're basically completely done for you video testimonial service. Yeah, so we're affordable. We're white glove and we're extremely effective at what we do.  [00:19:38] Jason: Yeah, I mean at 189 a month, it's an absolute no brainer. Just the cost of getting people to do this stuff, or trying to go out and get cheap places to do it, like to edit some video that you capture yourself, the quality's just not going to be there. [00:19:53] Jason: I think the magic is probably in the coaching and in the right questions and in the process and then the editing, putting it together is going to make it all work.  [00:20:02] Dan: And then once you have the video testimonial, we have a couple of really cool new piece of technology that we can automatically push testimonials to certain parts of your marketing assets. [00:20:13] Dan: So we have a, like a floating widget that can sit in any corner of your website that says video testimony. As soon as you click on it, it pops up and people can start watching mobile friendly. You know, when consumers are about to take action. So whether it's a book a tour or schedule a call, there's this anxiety inside of them when they click that. So we have this really cool inline widget that can sit underneath the buy button or schedule button that basically it's just a whole bunch of videos that they can watch some quick social proof in terms of that they're making the right decision. [00:20:44] Dan: Send them over the edge. [00:20:45] Dan: Absolutely. So as a member of Share One and we'll push all those videos automatically as we collect them onto the different parts of your marketing assets.  [00:20:54] Jason: Yeah, nice. So this can be it like there's a code snippets that you can embed on your website stuff like that. Very cool Yeah, we found that conversion rates increase... we'll do on our websites that we do for clients, I call it a testimonial sandwich. So basically we have the main call to action form that's lower on the page and we'll put like maybe two testimonials above it could be videos most of the time It's like a face image and text and then below that we'll have testimonies that have been gathered from their review websites, but videos would maximize if you just had two or three videos that somebody watched before signing up with you, there's a scripture in the Bible that says "in the mouth of two or three words shall every word be established." [00:21:41] Jason: There's this thing that happens in people, if they watch two or three videos of testimonies, or even just see that you have two or three, and there's some sort of headline below them that, like, sums up what it's about, they'll just believe it. They think that this is how everything happens at your business. [00:21:56] Jason: And so the power of just having even two or three videos, now if you have a lot, and you're able to continually gather these from clients, and then maybe leverage getting them to give you positive reviews on review sites, as well, then maybe after they leave the video, there's this other thing, I think Cialdini talks about this as well, that once somebody takes a certain action, they're more likely to believe in that like a positive action towards a business are more likely to want to continue to do that. [00:22:27] Dan: Validates their decision, right? [00:22:29] Jason: Right. And so once somebody gives you a positive review like if a tenant gives you a positive review or an owner gives you positive review, what happens is they tend to have a longer lifetime value. They stay longer and then when you have a problem because something inevitably comes up. The tenant gets frustrated, or the owner gets frustrated about something. [00:22:51] Jason: They're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, because previously they acknowledged they had a good experience with you, and they're more likely to say, "Oh, they'll figure it out. And so, it just makes business easier. What we coach our clients on is the best time to get a testimonial or a review is at peak happiness. And for most tenants and owners, that's usually around tenant placement. That's once the tenants in place, the tenant's happiest and the owner is now happy. "Hey, I've got a tenant and they're paying rent," and that's when everybody's happiest. And so during their and owner, new client onboarding processes. [00:23:29] Jason: They could build in this connection with you guys to give you their info and you reach out and ask about their experience. And our usual script for clients when we're coaching them to do this directly is that they reach out, point out the good that they've done for them so far, and then ask them the loaded question, like how do you feel we've done so far? [00:23:51] Jason: And then they're like, "Oh, well, you just told me you did all this you took care of that leaky toilet. You did this and property is ready for me And yeah, it's been great." " What's your experience been like with ABC property management so far?" "Oh, yeah It's been great." Because you just pointed out all the good. For the owner, you're like we got a tenant in place. We got the rent collected should be hitting your bank account in the next couple days. Like how do you feel ABC property management's done so far?" [00:24:15] Jason: "Oh, yeah. You guys are great." "Awesome We love hearing that would you be willing to share that feedback with us online? Or would you be willing to share that feedback with somebody else? That would really help us out." "Oh, yeah." So, it's called the Law of Reciprocity. They want to reciprocate, because you pointed out that you did something for them. [00:24:35] Jason: Yeah, there's kind of this debt or this leverage and they're like, "yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. Awesome. I'm going to have our producers-" you say right? "Our producer reach out and they'll do a little interview with you and I think you'll really enjoy it, and we're really good at making you look good." [00:24:51] Dan: Yeah, so great point. [00:24:53] Dan: I mean, testimonials build trust ultimately, right? And trust lasts a very long time. So even being able to send testimonials to existing tenants or existing owners as a reassurance, like, you know, if an owner has been with you for years, it's like, "Hey, If they're ever doubting about leaving us, let's send them like a case study or something, you know, once every six months or so, just to kind of reaffirm that you guys are really good. [00:25:15] Dan: So, so we actually have technology. We actually have technology that can build into the CRM process to know exactly when to reach out. So that can be automated. And we also upon completion of the video testimonial, we automate the whole Google or Yelp or any other types of site reviews. Automatically for the people that we interview and then one more thing I want to touch on Jason is objections, right? [00:25:37] Dan: So video testimonials are super powerful to use to address all objections before they even come up. So if you know right off the bat that nine times out of 10 people are going to say, well, you're, you know, such and such place is cheaper or other property managers or, you know, only charge 8 percent or whatever." [00:25:55] Dan: Then using the video testimonials and you can cue your producers into collecting that as like, "Hey, initially I thought that going with X was going to be a little bit more expensive, but little did I know they took care of X, Y, Z." Right. So being able to have those little seeds or saying, "Hey, you know, yes, this apartment building is probably not the cheapest around, but I'm so glad I chose this because of XYZ. So being able to take those objections and understanding how to reverse engineer these interviews to be able to get those soundbites that are going to help you with your closing.  [00:26:24] Jason: So this is something that your producers are trained on. That is in part of your onboarding process with new clients, then it's probably to identify what actions or challenges do they tend to deal with? [00:26:36] Jason: And then as you're gathering testimonials, it becomes a goal to offset those.  [00:26:41] Dan: Absolutely. So every new client that comes on board, we do a deep dive really understanding. who their audiences are going to be, who they're trying to attract, where these video testimonials are going to be displayed where these people are coming from, essentially trying to understand like what's in that prospect's mind frame, like what are they looking at when they're watching this? So that we can really kind of, you know, hit a home run for them. [00:27:03] Jason: Yeah, I love this. I think good testimonials are more important than most companies' marketing. They're more important than most companies' websites. They're more important than most everything that a company does to try and get new business. They don't understand the impact. And if you have negative reviews, which is like the opposite, it's like a clamp on anything that you could potentially do in your entire sales pipeline, any marketing you do, anything else, if you have negative reviews. People will check you out. People want to know, can they trust you? So they're looking for indicators. Even if they heard about you word of mouth or whatever, they might still go check and they're like, "well, they have a bunch of bad reviews. Maybe we should do some more research and find another company." And so the impact of that, I think is often underestimated. You can have the ugliest website. You can have the worst branding. You can have all the other leaks that exist in businesses, but if you have great testimonials and great reviews online, people will still work with you and those will be warm leads. [00:28:08] Jason: Like they'll trust you. There's stats that suggest that people trust online reviews or testimonials as much as word of mouth from a trusted friend or advisor if the reviews are credible, unlike some on Amazon. And then, so like the conversion rate or the close rate then is really high and you don't have to have as good of a website, you don't have to be as good at sales. You don't have to be as good at marketing. Good testimonials and good feedback really solves a myriad of marketing sins.  [00:28:37] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And then it's reputation management too. So if you do have some bad reviews on Google, you can easily upload videos onto your Google business profile and you can upload positive video reviews. [00:28:49] Dan: And when somebody reads something that's written that's negative and they go to your website and there's what we call wall of love, which is basically a whole bunch of videos saying how great, you know, you are, that's a game changer.  [00:29:00] Jason: That's an outlier. That negative review is now an outlier. You know, owners know that there's going to be upset and negative tenants. [00:29:06] Jason: And that's a given in property management. But they want to know that you know how to deal with those situations and that you're making changes or improvements or whatever. So having good responses is also can be important on those reviews. So having a whole wall of proof, yeah, that overcomes a lot of challenges. [00:29:24] Jason: So well cool, Dan. I appreciate you coming on the show. I wanted to announce Dan, you're coming to DoorGrow Live. You're going to be talking at our event in May about some of this stuff, but going even deeper into how people can have an impact in a way that I think would help grow and scale their business, which was what we're all about at DoorGrow. [00:29:45] Jason: And so everybody, make sure and go and check out the details at doorgrowlive.Com. And we were bringing in some really cool experts that are going to be talking about a variety of different things. And Dan is going to be one of those. So really excited to have you at that, Dan.  [00:30:02] Jason: Super excited. Can't wait for it.  [00:30:05] Jason: Yeah, that's going to be really cool. And so if you want to take things to the next level and grow your business, this is the place to be. And can you give them a teaser of what you might be sharing at this?  [00:30:15] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So, being able to present actual case studies in terms of property management and give solid advice and examples on how you can immediately start using video testimonials and leveraging social proof to be able to increase your conversions and also teaching you how to collect them. [00:30:33] Dan: And everything to do with social proof. So I'm super excited about that.  [00:30:37] Jason: This will be really cool. So make sure to get your tickets to DoorGrow Live. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. Dan, I appreciate you coming on the show. How can people learn more about Share One and get connected with what you're doing? [00:30:51] Dan: Absolutely. So our website is www.share.one O N E. And I think, Jason, we might put something nice together for your listeners and we'll add that to the show notes.  [00:31:01] Jason: Awesome. All right, appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show and excited to do more stuff with you in the future. [00:31:08] Jason: All right. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to grow your business, add doors, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We can help you with that. So until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. [00:31:19] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:46] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Things don't always go as planned in life and in business. It's important for property management entrepreneurs to be able to roll with the punches. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss a recent experience where they were forced to pivot and adapt over and over again. You'll Learn [01:58] The Original Plan [05:31] How a Winter Storm Distrupted a Business and Family Trip [08:52] Moral of the Story: Be Prepared [11:08] Your Plan is Not Always the Right Plan for You Tweetables “Moral of the story is be prepared.” “This is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt.” “There may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now.” “ The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:00:09] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game.  [00:00:17] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] Jason: DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:16] Jason: So, today we are recording this episode at, what time is it now?  [00:01:22] Sarah: It is almost midnight.  [00:01:23] Jason: It is late. On Monday. And this will go live or be streamed later. And so if you're watching this, thanks for watching. And we're not actually like real time live at this moment, but it's because we had to change things up and make different plans.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Live in the moment, we're probably still in the car.  [00:01:45] Jason: Yeah, so we will be driving tomorrow during our podcast episode. So we wanted to record this episode real quick so we can get one out. And in today's topic, we're just going to share a little bit of our adventure. And, you know, the moral of the story will be things don't always go according to plan. [00:02:03] Jason: So.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Sure don't.  [00:02:05] Jason: Alright, so, where do we start?  [00:02:08] Sarah: Alright, well, let's do quick synopsis. Where are we right now? Ohio, I think? I'm pretty sure we're in Ohio.  [00:02:15] Jason: I think so.  [00:02:16] Sarah: I think it's Ohio is the right answer. So, we've been to, in the last few days, we left on Friday, we've been to Texas, we've been to two days in Tennessee, we accidentally went to Kentucky, now we're in Ohio, tomorrow we're going to Pennsylvania. [00:02:30] Sarah: So, I think that's five states. Five states in five days. It's a great time. So, we're driving from Texas to Pennsylvania. It's supposed to be a straight shot, up like this. And it's this crazy record breaking winter storm, and we're driving through some of that. We're missing the big part of it. [00:02:51] Sarah: So we had to adjust our route. So our plan, this was our plan, was to leave on Friday. We're going from Texas to Memphis, Tennessee. Then the next morning, we were going to go to Graceland. We did do that, and then we spent some time in Nashville that evening. And then from Nashville, we were going to go to Morganstown, West Virginia, and then from there, drive into Dallas, Pennsylvania. [00:03:18] Sarah: So, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we were supposed to get to Pennsylvania on Monday, which is tonight, we are not in Pennsylvania. We are, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in Ohio, past Akron. And where, what's the name of this?  [00:03:32] Jason: Youngstown.  [00:03:33] Sarah: Youngstown, near Youngstown. That's where we are, right now. And so that was our plan. And then because of this crazy storm, we were leaving Nashville. We left Nashville. Roads were fine. Then all of a sudden, a little bit of rain. That was okay. Then, snow. And that was awful. And we were trying to get from Nashville, Tennessee up to Morgantown, West Virginia. Did not happen. Not even close. So we were going to stop in Lexington, Kentucky for lunch around like 3 o'clock or 3:30. That was not the plan. We ended up staying in Kentucky because it took us so long to get to Kentucky because of the crazy storm that we then had to stay overnight in Lexington and then reroute. So we were going this way and now we're going that way.  [00:04:31] Jason: So do you want to share why we're doing a road trip? [00:04:34] Jason: Which is crazy to do.  [00:04:36] Sarah: It's crazy to do. I know, right? I could have flown there in a day. So we're driving my car that I've owned for a couple years now. I'm driving to Pennsylvania, and I'm giving the car to my mom as a gift. She has absolutely no idea.  [00:04:52] Jason: It's a surprise.  [00:04:53] Sarah: That this is happening. [00:04:54] Sarah: I don't think she watches the podcast.  [00:04:56] Jason: No. Probably not.  [00:04:56] Sarah: Hopefully it's safe. But I'm gifting the car to my mom. I want her to have a nice car, and a reliable car, and not have to worry about things. So, I'm gifting her the car. She has absolutely no idea. Coincidentally, it's also in a couple of days, my brother Jason's birthday. [00:05:14] Sarah: So, shout out to Jason. Happy early birthday. We love you. And we're going to do this little trip. We're going to see my family for a little bit. We're going to go out to dinner for my brother Jason's birthday. Give my mom a car, and then fly back home and we are running an event. So that's why we're doing all of this in the first place. [00:05:31] Sarah: The whole crazy part of the story here is when we left Nashville, we were trying to get to Morganstown. It was insane on the road. Just wildly insane. Like snow, ice, there was a mix, there was sleet. We were going like 40 miles an hour. I was just happy to be moving. We saw multiple cars that had run off the road. [00:05:58] Sarah: We saw a couple of tractor trailers that we're in accidents. We saw a few accidents. We were almost in a few accidents ourselves. And this trip is not at all going as planned. We had to move our flight, and then move our flight again, and then move our flight a third time. So then we, last night we almost gave up on this whole thing. [00:06:18] Sarah: I was going to quit and just leave my car in Cincinnati, fly home. back to Texas and then come back and finish the second leg of this trip a second time. Jason woke up this morning and he said, "I think we can do it, babe. I think we can do it." So here we are, but this is not...  [00:06:35] Jason: We were not prepared for this storm. [00:06:37] Jason: This car had pretty bald tires, which was... we were not ready.  [00:06:43] Sarah: No.  [00:06:43] Jason: Yeah. So after sliding off the road a little bit, twice, yeah, on a freeway.  [00:06:50] Sarah: On a freeway.  [00:06:51] Jason: On a highway. Yeah.  [00:06:52] Sarah: And car is supposed to be heading in this direction, and then it turned in.  [00:06:57] Jason: And we were just off to the side, so we were able to get back on the road safely both times. [00:07:02] Jason: Thank goodness. Yeah. And not get hit by a tractor trailer.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah, we didn't get hit by anything. The car didn't get damaged. We are safe. And to that I can only thank God. The whole time I was praying, our fathers, I was saying Hail Mary's, our fathers, the whole time. I was just praying to God and God took care of us made sure that we were safe made sure the car is safe, made sure that we got where we were going, made sure we didn't get stranded in the car because we saw a couple people stranded.  [00:07:30] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:31] Sarah: It was scary. [00:07:31] Sarah: It was really scary.  [00:07:32] Jason: We eventually pulled off and went and found a tire store  [00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, we were going to continue out there for a while.  [00:07:38] Jason: Got new tires.  [00:07:39] Sarah: And something told me it might have been God telling me like "go, you need tires. Go get tires." So I said to Jason, I said, "Can you find...?"  [00:07:47] Sarah: Can you find? No.  [00:07:49] Jason: I wanted to get some better tires on that car, for sure. [00:07:51] Sarah: So, I said, "is there a tire place that's like, nearby, that's open right now, that we can go to right now?" So we did. Took a little pit stop detour, but it was very well worth it. I just don't think we would have made the rest of the trip in one piece.  [00:08:06] Jason: The first tire store we went to was closed.  [00:08:08] Sarah: Yeah. Like it wasn't even plowed to get to it. They were closed. The third one was a tread. So we got new tires. That's good. The guy at the tire store, what did he tell you? The tread level was like a four. It's real, it's really bad.  [00:08:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:21] Sarah: It was real bad. Yeah. So, that was fun.  [00:08:23] Jason: So We got fresh tires. Then the car drove really well. [00:08:27] Jason: Plus we had pretty much made it through the worst of the weather, which we had planned. Because there were two ways we could go. The northern route had less weather, so.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yep. That's why we're in Ohio.  [00:08:41] Jason: So.  [00:08:41] Sarah: And not through West Virginia.  [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah, we'd probably be in a very terrible spot if we had gone the wrong way. [00:08:47] Jason: So.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Yeah. We'd be off on the side of the road frozen like popsicles. Oh gosh. You guys would never hear from us again.  [00:08:52] Jason: So moral of the story is be prepared. Make sure you're prepared. Have a plan. And so we've done lots of plans and changing of plans and so this is part of life. And this is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt. And so one thing entrepreneurs, we are good at is adaptability. We figure it out cause we have to, and we adapt. And so we've adapted a lot today. [00:09:23] Jason: And yesterday. The last couple days. Yeah, the last couple days.  [00:09:25] Sarah: We had a plan, we changed a plan, we changed that plan, we changed a plan again. We just keep changing it.  [00:09:30] Jason: And that causes us. We're just rolling with the punches. That causes us to have to adapt in business. So here we are recording a podcast. [00:09:36] Jason: Here we are.  [00:09:36] Sarah: At midnight.  [00:09:37] Jason: In a hotel room.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Which Jason did not want to do.  [00:09:39] Jason: No. No. I was like, we don't have to do anything that we don't want to do. We don't have to do this.  [00:09:44] Sarah: No. And I said, we are not recording a podcast live from the car because we might die. No.  [00:09:49] Jason: We're not going to do that.  [00:09:49] Sarah: We might die live on camera. [00:09:51] Sarah: Yeah, that would be...  [00:09:52] Jason: All right. So hopefully some of you got some value from this. If you do not have a good plan for your business, then that's something that we can help you with here at DoorGrow, help you come up with a plan, and help you adapt to some of the things that are getting thrown at your way. [00:10:09] Jason: This is why we mapped out the DoorGrow code, our roadmap, for some of the most common challenges and problems. So if you would like a copy of the DoorGrow code, just reach out to us. We'd be happy to give you one and tell you a little bit about how we might be able to help you and hear about your challenges. [00:10:24] Jason: So reach out to us. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com or go to our website or join our free Facebook group by going to doorgrowclub.Com. Make sure to answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of the applicants that try to join that group. So it's only for property management business owners. [00:10:44] Jason: So if you own a property management business or seriously planning on starting one, then you can request access to that group. Make sure to answer the questions. We would love to have you inside. And that's it.  [00:10:55] Sarah: No, that's not it. No.  [00:10:56] Jason: Oh, there's more.  [00:10:57] Sarah: That wasn't it. I said, what are we going to talk about this episode? [00:11:00] Sarah: I told you what we're going to talk about, then we just... So.  [00:11:03] Sarah: It's not the end of the episode. Surprise! A little bit more. But wait, there's more! [00:11:07] Jason: But wait, there's more.  [00:11:08] Sarah: So for those of you that do have a plan, and you're like, "yeah, no, I definitely have a plan. This is not applicable to me," we had a plan going into this as well. [00:11:17] Sarah: So, when you have a plan and life does not work out the way that you planned, and things don't work out the way that you thought that they would, and you're going through things and you're trying to figure out, you know, "what am I doing wrong? And why isn't this working? And like, why is this so hard? I don't understand why it's not happening the way that I wanted it to happen," and why it's just maybe not happening at all... [00:11:40] Sarah: or maybe it's happening, but it's just so slow, and it's so hard, then you just need to know that sometimes there's a bigger plan in place for you somewhere. And if you're religious, you might believe that God, or the universe, or fate, or whatever you might want to call it. There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:12:07] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game. Just like when we thought we would go to West Virginia. Had we actually gotten to West Virginia, we'd be stranded there for sure, because they are getting hammered with snow right now. [00:12:22] Sarah: So the whole, like, West Virginia, D. C. area Hammered with snow, and that was our plan. So I'm grateful, although it's a little crazy, I'm grateful that we didn't end up going that way. I'm grateful that there was a bigger plan in place for us. So just trust that you do have support when you reach out to people like your mentors, and if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, there are so many resources for you, including property managers who are in the exact same spot that you are in. [00:12:56] Sarah: They've been there. They've done that. They've experienced everything. So leverage the resources that you have available to you. Know that there's support and know that everything is unfolding exactly the way it's supposed to for you in this exact moment. And you will have your breakthrough. The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit. [00:13:14] Sarah: See, and now we're done.  [00:13:15] Jason: Good words. Good stuff, Sarah. All right.  [00:13:18] Sarah: All right. We're going to go to bed now.  [00:13:20] Jason: Yeah. Get some sleep.  [00:13:22] Sarah: Yep.  [00:13:22] Jason: So until next time, to our mutual growth. Hope you all crush it. Bye, everyone. [00:13:27] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

When moving from being a solopreneur to having a team, a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with hiring high-quality team members, creating accountability, and streamlining processes. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with award-winning coach and author Kon Apostolopoulos to talk all about unlocking your team's potential. You'll Learn [04:16] Hiring for Competance  [12:48] Leadership and Building a Team [29:19] Developing Team Members [49:42] Tough Love as a Business Owner Tweetables  ”They say the two most important days in your life are the day you come into this world and the day you figure out why.” “They all have their strategies, their business plans, but one thing for sure is that if they don't have the right people in place to execute those plans, they're not even worth the paper they're written on.” “If they're hiring for competence, it's probably a step up, because in most cases, people are hiring for a pulse.” “You can teach people the technical skills. You can't teach attitude. You can't teach certain behaviors. You can't teach integrity.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kon: When we are appreciated, we always give more than what is expected of us. So when you are looking at it, build your team around that principle. Show people that you value them. Don't just say, you know what, you get a paycheck, don't you? This is why I brought you on. Do your damn job.  [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers, love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:21] All right. I, my guest today is coach Kon. So Kon, how do you say your last name? I want to make sure I don't mess it up.  [00:01:29] Kon: Wow. Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Jason. Last name is Apostolopoulos. It's as simple as it looks.  [00:01:37] Jason: Man, that is fun to say. Apostolopoulos.  [00:01:39] Kon: It rolls off the tongue. [00:01:40] Jason: Yeah. The closest thing that might be as fun was the Snuffleupagus.  [00:01:45] Kon: It's inspired from that.  [00:01:47] Jason: Okay. All right. We'll go, you know, all great ideas have an origin. All right. So Kon, we're going to be chatting a little bit today about the keys to engagement, resilience, high performance, unlocking team potential. [00:02:02] So before we get into that, I'd love to get a little bit of background on you. How did you get into doing coaching and you know, kind of share your origin story.  [00:02:12] Kon: Wow. Okay. So let's kind of take a look at this. First of all, I'll start with one of my favorite sayings. Because I do feel blessed. [00:02:19] It is the season for that kind of a feeling. You know, they say the two most important days in your life are the day you come into this world and the day you figure out why. And so to me, I have always gravitated towards being a coach, being a teacher, being a leader, stepping up and taking responsibility. [00:02:38] And so that's kind of shaped my life. Being the firstborn in a Greek household and the firstborn male at that. It's one of those situations where, Inevitably, you're thrust into that role, but I gravitated towards it, and I found myself, regardless of which industry I've been working in, everything from the military to cruise ships, from restaurants to call centers, from construction to coaching little kids' soccer, I've always been in a situation where I found myself in the role of coach, teacher, leader. You know, I've worked for large corporations. I've had my share of corporate where I've cut my teeth and I've learned a lot of the business secrets and the things that I needed to get. And in the last 12 years, I've hung my own single shingle and been in a situation where I've been able to help clients and transfer three decades of knowledge of managing talent, of being able to build engaged and resilient teams and helping them now achieve their goals. [00:03:34] And the way I do that is I explained to people that most of the companies that I work with have their business plans very much like the audience that we have here. They all have their strategies their business plans. But one thing for sure is that if they don't have the right people in place to execute those plans, they're not even worth the paper they're written on. And so to me, that's where I come in and sometimes that involves providing workshops to build competence. Sometimes that involves individual or group coaching to build commitment. Sometimes that's speaking at events for them to be able to get everybody on the same page. And ultimately that may involve helping them build the systems that they need so every dollar that they spend on their people is a dollar well spent.  [00:04:14] Jason: Got it. Okay. Now I think a lot of times that the challenge I see in a lot of companies is they're bringing in, it's often people are hiring just based on skill. That's the thing they're looking at is like, are they willing to do this job for this pay? Instead of looking for people that fit their values, fit the culture, have the right personality fit to actually be able to succeed in the role. [00:04:38] And so I call those things, the three fits. What have you seen related to this?  [00:04:42] Kon: When people go out and start hiring Jason, they typically do it out of need, and a lot of times they've let it go for so long that it becomes a desperation. If they're hiring for competence, it's probably a step up, because in most cases, people are hiring for a pulse. [00:04:56] They're trying to throw a body at a spot, and that's a desperate place to be in, unfortunately. Hiring process, the selection process, should be an ongoing thing. When you're looking at making sure that you have the right people on your team. That's an ongoing process to me. That's tending to your garden year round, to making sure that you have the right people in place year round. [00:05:17] The mantra that I teach my people is a three part piece, just like you were mentioning earlier. It's hire hard, train smart, manage easy. And to me that means basically being very picky about who I bring on my team. It's easy for people or it's easier for people to look at, do they have the skills? Because that's an yes or no answer most of the time, especially if you do it right. But what they don't realize is that you can teach people the technical skills. You can't teach attitude. You can't teach certain behaviors. You can't teach integrity. You're bringing somebody in your team in their thirties. [00:05:50] If you have to teach them how to be honest, that's too late in the game.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yes.  [00:05:55] Kon: So hire for the attitude, like you were talking about the things that are harder to teach, and then you can teach them smartly about the business that you want. If you have a right person in the right spot, they can do wonders. [00:06:09] Jason: Yeah, I've noticed this. I've noticed this as well. One of the things I've noticed is I call it the process myth. I see a lot of businesses, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs go through this journey of graduating from solopreneur to having a team, right? And that's usually one of the most painful transitions they go through. [00:06:25] It's because they have no clue how to do the hiring correctly. And they're hiring the way a solopreneur sort of thinks. And they're usually hiring based on what they think the business needs. Like you said, out of need, maybe they graduate to desperation. Maybe they graduate to competence, as you said, but at that stage, they usually believe the process myth. [00:06:43] I've run into this a lot where they think they just need better processes. If they just had better processes, their team would actually perform well. Like, I just need to micromanage them more. I need more KPIs. I need more metrics. And what I've noticed is, this weird dichotomy, I've noticed that in companies that have great culture and they have a great team, they have great people, but they even have shitty processes, they still perform well, even without great process documentation, but I've seen companies that have like process documentation, like crazy, and they focus on this heavily, but they don't have the right people. And they're never able to perform well. There's no amount of process documentation or micromanaging or controls that can make a mediocre team with maybe the wrong attitude or wrong culture fit or wrong values to perform well. [00:07:35] Kon: No, I agree with you there. When you look at why people try to heavily process things, it's because they don't feel confident in people's decision making and abilities. They tried to legislate everything. They tried to create a way. We used to have a saying that, you know, every time you think you idiot proof something with a process, they come up with better idiots. [00:07:55] And that's a situation where you have to be very careful. You put a good person in a bad process, the process is going to win. So you have to be very careful because when we evolve this piece and we take it to its natural conclusion, which is why do we hire good people or try to find good people? [00:08:12] Why do we try to create processes that can produce results? It's to get performance. It's to increase performance, to become more predictably good. That's ultimately what we're doing. Performance is about results. When you look at your metrics that you were talking about, you're a pro, you do this and you know exactly what you're trying to do. [00:08:31] You have a methodology, you have a way of doing things, you have a philosophy about how you go about things because you know it works and you know it works well enough for you and for others that you're comfortable going out and sharing that message with others. Well, when you talk about performance, performance happens at three different dimensions. [00:08:50] Think about it like a Venn diagram, three overlapping circles. One is organizationally. How are we set up? How are we set up? Our culture our vision, our messages, our values, all of those things that we want to set ourselves up with. And then you have the process. How do things hand off from one person to the next? [00:09:10] What does the customer journey look like? What does the experience with us look like? How do we engage with each other? And then ultimately, it's the individual level. Do we have the right people on the right seat on the bus going in the right direction? Do they have the skills, knowledge, ability, attitudes that we're looking for to get things done? [00:09:29] So when people say, we're struggling to improve our performance, they automatically Only look at one, maybe two of those areas, not realizing that you need all three of those to hit in order to be at optimal level, when you've reached your peak in your performance, all three of those things are in place. [00:09:47] You've organized the team. Well, you've got your systems in place and you've hired the right people.  [00:09:52] Jason: Yeah, I love this. You know, they say all truth gravitates towards itself, you know, so to speak. And so I actually draw a Venn diagram for clients and they teach them a framework called the three fits and your organization, I would just call culture, this is, do they share your values? Is there alignment there? Because otherwise you'll never be able to trust them. So you want one offload to them and then you always want to micromanage them. And then for process, I usually call that a skill fit. And the question there is, do they have the intellectual capacity to be able to develop the skill or do they already possess it? And that's the one that maybe the needle can be moved on right like you had mentioned they could maybe be trained, but some people are untrainable. They just don't have the intellectual capacity for that particular role. They just won't get there. [00:10:38] You can train and you'll just demoralize yourself, right? And then as then when you mentioned kind of people this is where I look at the personality fit. Are they the right personality for the role? Not everybody can be great or enjoy doing cold calling. Not everybody could be great or enjoy doing accounting, right? [00:10:57] And that means that they would love doing the role if they're the right personality fit, which means you don't have to motivate them. You don't have to try and push them to do it. And they, if they don't have that, they'll just never be great. And so I love this. Like it's always validating to see alignment when somebody's kind of graduated to this knowledge set on their own and see that, Hey, we both kind of arrived at a similar conclusion. [00:11:22] Kon: So, well, the truth is pretty universal and that's how we get there. We each discovered in our own way and application, but even with my company is called Fresh Biz Solutions and the the origin of the name and the philosophy behind that name is that I've worked, as I mentioned, in very diverse industries across continents, across countries, across boundaries. [00:11:45] And what I found is people are people. The needs are fairly universal. And so something, a process, an idea, a solution that works well in one industry, when you take it, look at it, dust it off, repurpose it, repackage it, it can work just as well in another industry. Why? Because you're dealing with people. [00:12:05] You're dealing with principles that are universal. And so, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There is a need for us to find what works and continue to apply it. In different situations.  [00:12:17] Jason: Absolutely. And you know, my personal sort of mission statement is to inspire others to love true principles. I love figuring out what works and sharing it with other people. [00:12:25] That's just fun for me. I would do that for free for fun. And yeah, so, so I get that. And yeah, there's, you know, a whole business book might be just written about one principle, you know, and there's that one nugget that you can pull out of it. But yeah if, you know, as I'm always seeking for those principles and those ideas, I'm then able to share and benefit others and it can be applied to a variety of different situations. [00:12:48] Yeah. Love that. So how do people go about doing this? It's like, usually entrepreneurs are very, you know, focused on just hiring based on as you said, need, desperation, competence. How do you graduate them through this? [00:13:03] Kon: So when we look at the process, I mean, we, when solopreneurs graduate, like you said, when you have, when you've been working on your own for a long time and you decide to bring on team members, one of the mistakes that we make is that we think that everybody is motivated the same way we are. Everybody sees the same vision that we do. [00:13:20] And that's just not the case. Yeah. We don't have that luxury. There's not enough people there that automatically will instinctively know what you're working on and really align themselves. Most of the time you have to do some connection of the dots for them. You have to explain to them why you're doing what you're doing and how they fit into this. [00:13:39] This is part of my engagement model that I talk about in my new book, The Engagement Blueprint. And the principles here are universal, whether it's one person or 1000 on your team. You can look at it and say the same thing. The way to understand this is that when you are leading a team, you're bringing people onto your team. [00:13:57] You're developing them. You're aligning them. What are you trying to do? You're trying to amplify the reach that you have as an individual. You're trying to get more done through your team, but through your team is the key because you need the voluntary contribution of these people. They need to want to do this. [00:14:13] Otherwise, it's a slog. It's a heavy lift to constantly micromanage people That's where the heavy processing comes in. You're chasing them around and the property trying to figure out where are they on where they supposed to? Be are they on their computer? Are they? responding to the needs? [00:14:29] How are they dealing with my clients? You're constantly living on edge and you're in fear and uncertainty all the time. My methodology is all about taking the uncertainty out of that and making sure that when you invest in your people, you know you're going to get a return on that investment. You know that basically they are an extension of you. [00:14:49] Now, the way to go about it is to understand that there are four key drivers of engagement for people. I mean, I've done my homework, I've spent almost two years researching the topic, talked to some pretty smart people across the globe, and pulled together 30 years of experience looking at this. And the four drivers start, first and foremost, with the need that we all have to feel valued. [00:15:10] When we are appreciated, we always give more than what is expected of us. So when you are looking at it, build your team around that principle. Show people that you value them. Don't just say, you know what, you get a paycheck, don't you? This is why I brought you on. Do your damn job. It's easy to say that. [00:15:28] Jason: Yeah, there's a lot of bosses that think because they grew up sort of in that culture and they, it's kind of the dinosaur boss that says, "well, I pay you, so just do your work," like it's very transactional.  [00:15:40] Kon: Correct. And when it's transactional, you lose so much because people will only do up to a certain point and then you have to keep telling them what is part of that transaction. [00:15:49] So. When people are appreciated though, they will continue to find ways to support and help you and do more. When you realize that it's all about that discretionary effort, engagement is about discretionary effort, giving that little bit extra because you feel first and foremost valued. And the way you do that, I mean, here are some ideas that Our audience can go out and do right now. [00:16:13] First and foremost, think about how you can create an environment that is safe for your people. Physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. I mean, if you're in a situation where you have people out there physically doing work, they're climbing up to clear gutters to do certain things, make sure the environment is safe. [00:16:32] Set a protocol so people can feel safe. Emotionally, if you're in a meeting, make sure that people feel comfortable telling you the ugly truth sometimes, the information that you need to make decisions. If people feel like there'll be chastised or reprimanded for telling you the truth, those stops sharing that information with you, and you will lose opportunities there. [00:16:52] Make sure that people feel that you appreciate them or that they can bring their whole self to work because if they can bring their whole self to work, they'll bring their best self to work. And then ultimately, even if you only have five minutes a week to spend with each one of your people, make sure that those five minutes, you're present, give them your attention. [00:17:13] I mean, these are simple ways that when you ask somebody, "how are you doing?" You pause enough to get the answer to that. That tells people you value them and then say, thank you. You know what? I really appreciate the fact that you treat this property like it's your own, that you take care of our guests, that you take care of our clients, that you went above and beyond. [00:17:34] You'll get more of what you're looking for when you do that. So that's one key driver things that people can go out and do right now simple things  [00:17:42] Jason: Yeah, I think yeah that first item you mentioned feeling valued or feeling appreciated It's interesting because what i've noticed is on a lot of DISC assessments, there's the values index and most entrepreneurs I think focus on things being transactional and focus on trying to motivate people through money because they mistakenly assume that everybody likes money. [00:18:01] And the economic score and a values index for most people is low except for entrepreneurs and salespeople typically. And if the economic score is low, that means they're more recognition motivated. So this is very much in alignment with the appreciation aspect, right? A lot of entrepreneurs are trying to throw money at people when they could save that money and just appreciate them and recognize them. [00:18:25] And they would get far more output. [00:18:27] Kon: But even with entrepreneurs and salespeople, Jason, I mean, look at us from this perspective: we all love being appreciated, but even with the money piece, if I'm driven towards money, it's rarely about the dollar bill itself. It's about what that represents for me. [00:18:41] And for entrepreneurs, sometimes it's a recognition of their arrival, their accomplishment. For some people, it's a representation of financial security that gives them the freedom, the life that they want. That's what you see. When you see all of these people advertising these solutions that produce money for people, what are they putting out there? [00:19:01] The big houses. The freedom, the lifestyle, the cars, all of that stuff. That's what that a big part of what that represents. It's never just about the money, but it's just as much for your entry level laborer in your property that's going around cleaning out things. For them, that money means security. [00:19:20] That means that I am a paycheck away from living on the street. And that's what you need to understand. What is driving? I mean, you mentioned the word motivating earlier, and it's important for our audience to understand that you cannot motivate another person. That is a falsehood. Motivation is an intrinsic process. [00:19:39] Psychologically, you cannot do that to somebody else. All you can do is create the right environment where people will feel self motivated.  [00:19:49] Jason: Yeah.  [00:19:50] Kon: This is the proverbial. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink unless it's thirsty.  [00:19:55] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink. [00:20:00] But you can salt its oats, correct? Another phrase that I love is "whenever we fail to inspire, we always control." [00:20:08] Kon: Correct. And that's the part where you want to drive that you want to create the environment for anybody that's spent any time out there trying to go fishing. You realize that not every fish likes the same bait. [00:20:23] So you have to put the right bait out there to attract and inspire that fish to bite. And it's the same with your people. The job of a leader is to really set the course, give them a plan, give them the reason why, and the how becomes "this is how I want to motivate you." I want you to achieve your goals by helping me achieve our goals. [00:20:44] That's the second driver, connection. We are tribal creatures, Jason. Part of the reason why we all wear uniforms, for example, at a job, or the same t shirts, is because we want to belong to the same tribe. That builds bonds, camaraderie, connection to people. I mean, think about the last time you met somebody in a crowd that's from the same hometown, went to the same university, supports the same sports team. [00:21:08] I mean, you go to a stadium, there's 50, 000 people wearing the same jersey as you, and you feel connected to them.  [00:21:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:13] Kon: And so people crave that.  [00:21:15] Jason: I just went to one of those Texas Football games that at the university here and yeah, it's like, it's crazy.  [00:21:22] Kon: Correct. So people want to feel part of a team. [00:21:26] And so in order to do that, use your team building skills. Make sure that people understand what it is that you're going after. What game are you playing? Are you playing football? Are you playing tennis? What are you playing? These are different games. Make sure that people understand what's the game, what's the values, how are we going to get there? [00:21:42] And then create that bond and respect between you and each team member while you're building the bonds between the team members themselves. And give people a path so they can see how they can achieve their aspirations by working with you and the team. We talked about that. If my goal is to make sure that I secure a paycheck because I'm financially insecure to pay my bills, or you know what, I have to support my kids, show me how to do that. [00:22:07] Show me how to get there. If my goal is to become the best salesperson in the region, show me how to do that. Because that way, when you align their goals and yours you can unleash huge energy and potential because people will be striving because it's a win win. They don't have to do your goals instead of theirs. [00:22:25] They don't have to sacrifice one for the other. That alignment really gives them permission to give their best.  [00:22:32] Jason: Yeah, we're looking at the proverbial win, like if there isn't a win, it's win lose and either we're going to lose or they're going to lose. So correct. So this kind of speaks to their needing to be for connection. [00:22:42] There needs to be alignment in you know, mission.  [00:22:45] Kon: Correct. And that's what you hire for. Back to your original question. If you find people that are aligned because this is what they want to do and you can show them how they can fulfill their personal mission by working with the team to achieve its mission. [00:22:59] That's where the win, that's where the secret sauce is. That alignment truly alleviates the need to micromanage because when they are confronted with a choice, they will make the right choice because their why is intact. They understand why they're doing something. It's easier for them to take that personal accountability for themselves and for the team. [00:23:19] Jason: A lot of business owners don't even know their why, which is why they're running into these sort of mistakes.  [00:23:24] Kon: Correct. Again, because they are operating at a very tactical transactional level. They're not elevating to their higher self. I mean when you look at it, the people that achieve the greatest things are the ones that have a purpose behind them They are driven by that when you have purpose driven organizations They will always outperform the others the same way that engaged organizations when they harness that power from their team will always outperform their competitors by a lot i'm talking about 20 percent more in operating revenues. [00:23:56] I'm talking three times the profitability. I'm talking almost nine out of 10 people say "I have no reason to go anywhere else." So you're keeping your best and brightest and probably attracting your competitors' best and brightest.  [00:24:09] Jason: Absolutely. I've seen a three times the output from a team if they align with the culture the personality and the values and you know, all that easily three times the output. And that's the biggest, one of the biggest profit levers in a business because the biggest expense in a business is the people and those all connected with people.  [00:24:29] Kon: Correct. And when you start looking at that at that line item in your P and L. [00:24:33] As truly an investment, you're going to approach it very differently because you're going to be smart about where you put the money. I mean, it's the same way you wouldn't find a temporary solution to fix something in your buildings. You want to find a solution that makes sense, the best return on that investment. [00:24:48] And that's where, for example, you come in and you look at the productivity piece, which is the third driver. People want to know that they contribute, that they make a difference, Jason. I mean, the example that I give in my coaching and my training sessions on this topic is If I was to give you a team photo from a recent event that you were together with a group of people, what's the first thing that most of us would do, you think? [00:25:12] Jason: If you were to give a team photo,  [00:25:14] Kon: if I was to give you a team photo that you were in of a recent event, you were there with your team. Let's say you're celebrating something and there's 15 of you on this, in this picture. What's the, one of the first things that you would do? I just handed you that picture. [00:25:27] Jason: I would look to see if everyone's happy.  [00:25:31] Kon: Or even where you are, right? People want to know where they fit into this picture.  [00:25:34] Jason: Oh yeah. If it's a new photo, I'd be like, I'd look at myself first.  [00:25:37] Kon: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So most of us will take a look at that picture and say, Hey, where am I in this picture? And then look around and say, Oh, I can see Steve smiling. [00:25:44] I can see Mary over there. She looked like she was having a good time. All the men. Now we see where we fit into this bigger picture. It's the same thing for entrepreneurs. Show your people where they fit in. Show them that even the most menial task. Joe, thank you for cleaning up that mess over there. You know what, that represents the standard that we have here at the property. [00:26:04] When you did that, that made a big difference. Somebody passing by will look at us and know that we care about this property. They will care about it. That's contagious. And you know what, Billy last week tripped on a mess like that and now he's twisted his ankle and now he's out for three months and now you have to do his job as well. [00:26:21] So thank you for taking care of that. So nobody else got hurt. That tells people That even the most menial task has a purpose they can connect the dots when people feel like they can contribute in meaningful ways, they can be productive your systems your processes allow them to be productive back to our starting point. They will flourish. They want to make a difference. [00:26:43] You're going to spend time at work. Anyway, we spent what a third of our day typically at work at least unless you're an entrepreneur and then you're probably spending a lot more But the thing is are you making a difference? How are you impacting others when you can do that, that fuels you that makes a difference When I see the light bulb go on in my clients and the people that I coach the people that I teach, that is fuel to me. That fuels my passion about what I do. [00:27:10] And so knowing that I make a difference, knowing that people come back to me and say, you know what, I applied your technique, your system, what you recommended, what we discovered together, and it made a difference. That is power. That is a driver. And people want to know that they contribute. You see it in volunteers, Jason, all the time. [00:27:29] They're not doing it for the money. They're going out there because they believe in what they're doing, that what they're doing makes a difference. Get that volunteer spirit on your team. Get them excited about what they're doing, knowing that they can make a difference. That's power.  [00:27:43] Jason: Yeah. It's amazing. You look at churches as a business, they have a lot of people just volunteering. You look at open source software initiatives. They have a lot of people that are working their day job, but their passion hobby is to contribute to this open source thing for free. You know? Exactly.  [00:28:00] Kon: I spent recently 25 hours a week or more coaching kids soccer. [00:28:06] I didn't do it for the money. I did it because I wanted to see that passion. To me, I believed in what I was doing and I was making a difference. I teach girls, especially I coach girls. Why? Because I believe that when we can teach young women how to advocate for themselves, tap into their leadership abilities from a young age, and they know that they can perform well as individuals, as team members, as team leaders, they become better leaders tomorrow, and we need more of those leaders tomorrow. I'm working with the early generations now, so in the future I don't have to go in and try to change the mind of 40 year old executives  [00:28:45] Jason: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when they're young and they won't depart from it. Right.  [00:28:51] Kon: Teach them those foundational pieces. [00:28:53] They become better. I mean, I have kids, I've won and lost games and tournaments and championships, but you know what the biggest reward for me is? When I have a kid coming back to me years later and say, coach, thank you. I still love the game because of you. And these are the things that I've accomplished because of the life skills that I learned playing on your team. [00:29:12] Yeah. That stuff that they pick up from you, I'm sure applies to everything.  [00:29:18] Correct. And then finally, the last driver is people need to feel supported to learn and grow. Speaking of coaching and developing, I liken this Jason to the example of water. Water is a life source, right? Right. But a swamp is water, so is a river. [00:29:34] The difference between the two is the flow, is the is the movement. Nobody wants to be caught up in a swamp in their careers, in their jobs. Everybody wants a flowing river, and they want to know that there's a path, there's a career path for them, there's a way for them to grow. Even if, like you said, they might be limited by their own abilities to some extent, or their own desires, to some extent, show them how they can be the best in the current role that they're in. [00:30:01] Maybe they're not going to be promoted to the next general manager managing a hundred units, but maybe there's somebody who can teach and mentor a young person coming in to your business, and they can offer value through that. Maybe that becomes part of what they do. So there is room for everybody to continue to learn and grow. [00:30:18] Give them that opportunity. This is the train smart, the growth part where everybody has a sense of, I'm showing up to work and I'm a little bit better than I was yesterday, or that there's a clear career path because if they can't find the path in your business, they're going to try to find it somewhere else. [00:30:36] Jason: Sure. Yeah. Nobody wants to feel stuck or stagnant. And, you know, I think that's what our soul craves. Our soul craves growth. I think that I think a lot of people mistakenly, I think the point of, you know, Life of marriage of everything that people recommend that maybe you do is to be happy. I think the point I think happiness is a more mediocre goal than growth. [00:30:59] I think the point is growth. That doesn't always mean you're going to be happy, right? And I love your water analogy. I've heard a similar analogy before where it's like, which would you rather drink? The From the crazy wild raging river or the stagnant puddle in front of your house Right. And it's that sort of turbulence and challenge that purifies the water and that makes it a much safer environment to drink from. [00:31:26] Kon: Absolutely. And I mean, my, my first book was all about managing crisis and about managing sudden change. And even in that you realize that crisis presents opportunities on the flip side of it. Crisis is not all bad. Crisis means that, you know what? Hey, things are being shaken up big time unexpectedly, but who wouldn't want to be? I mean you think about crises over time I mean in 2008 prior to 2008 we didn't have you know Airbnb and uber eats or ubers in general you didn't have any of that stuff I mean, after the crisis of 2008, people got creative and they found new ways of dealing things, you know, sharing out rooms in their house, renting things out, short term rentals, looking at opportunities to replace cabs, using their cars smartly. [00:32:12] You look at the recent pandemic crisis. I mean, wouldn't you have liked to have stocks in some of these virtual meeting rooms, Zoom and others? Wouldn't that be great to have that beforehand because that was an opportunity all of a sudden everybody's gone virtual. So this is important for us to understand. [00:32:27] Growth comes sometimes through turbulence, through upheaval, you know, things change either as an evolution progressively, slowly, or as a revolution.  [00:32:38] Jason: Yeah. Crisis equals opportunity. Correct. If that's your mindset, otherwise it equals something horrible.  [00:32:45] Kon: I mean, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that aspire to the mantra, especially when they're in the DISC profile. [00:32:50] When you say about the D's, the dominant ones, you look at it and you say, if it ain't broke, break it. That's the mantra. Right.  [00:32:58] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, cool. So we've got four items feel valued, appreciated. Number one, these are the four key drivers, the drivers of revenue, performance, everything else. [00:33:09] Kon: Engagement and engagement leads to the performance. Right.  [00:33:12] Jason: Okay. So we've got number one, feeling value. Number two, connection. Maybe we should stick all of our team members in the same t shirts. I don't know. And, you know, making them feel like a team. Make it feel like a soccer team. Maybe I don't know number three productivity, meaning they feel like they're contributing to something that contribution I think is something that entrepreneurs deeply crave and they want to feel like they have impact And then number four supported to learn and grow,  [00:33:40] correct.  [00:33:40] Kon: Yeah. For the four drivers. I mean, this is basically the 80 20 rule. When you can do those four things, that'll get you the majority of the way there to really create an engaged team and engaged workforce with you as a leader. I mean, think about it this way. Leaders contribute about 70 percent of the variance between an average team And a high performing team. [00:34:03] 70 percent of that difference comes from your leadership style. If you apply these simple four principles, these simple four drivers to your business, and you start engaging your people, you can transform your workplace to win in the marketplace. You're igniting the fire in your people without burning them out. [00:34:22] That's essential.  [00:34:24] Jason: And if you have bad team members, but you have these four things, they're just not going to fit. They're not going to want to stick around. I mean, if everybody's feeling valued, there's connection that, you know, there's focus on making a difference and people are supported, learn and grow. [00:34:37] It's going to be obvious. Like there's going to be these B players that no matter how appreciated they are, they're just, or there's nothing to appreciate or that, you know, they don't want to be a team player. They don't care about the connection with other people. They aren't productive. They don't feel, they don't care if they're making a difference. [00:34:53] They just wanted like, kind of basically they want to complain about you, their boss and live for the weekend. Correct. And they are, and they don't care about growth. They're like, they're just showing up that it's going to be very obvious that they're not a culture fit.  [00:35:06] Kon: And so that's where you look at it. [00:35:08] And now bringing a full circle back to your original piece of staffing. Now, you know, where your holes are now, you know, where the gaps are, and now, you know, what you're looking for. And then you can enlist the help of the rest of your team to bring them on board, to be part of this group, to really embrace your culture. [00:35:24] It's a lot easier once you get this in motion to be able to have this operate because it's a self sustaining organism. It's a community. I mean, one of the biggest things that I tell people in the last closing part of the book is I let them know that people think the grass is greener on the other side. [00:35:44] It's not. The grass is greener where you water it. Sure. So you need to take care of your patch of grass. You need to make sure that you apply these principles, and then that rest will take care of itself. The grass that's flourishing will crowd out the weeds. It'll take care of all of those different things. [00:36:03] Your people, through their own empowerment, they will see your business as their own, and they will start monitoring and managing this process with you. And for you, because that's the power of true engagement. Now you've got people that feel that personal accountability, that ownership, because they feel empowered. [00:36:20] Jason: Yeah. If the grass isn't green on your side of the fence and you're the business owner, the problem is you, this is a leadership factor. I had one of my mentors, he used to say to me, he said, he'd say, Jason, If you don't yet have the business of your dreams, it's because you're not yet the person that can run it yet. [00:36:39] And you know, that's good medicine, but a bitter pill to accept, you know, in moments for a lot of people. But yeah, I think Yeah, I think it's greener where you water it. And if you, if I love these four principles, if you can align your team around this, that creates a really good culture. [00:36:56] The environment then is safe. People are feeling appreciated. And then you're moving people eventually out of just this transactional leadership into moving them towards a transformational leadership that turns them into leaders.  [00:37:11] Kon: Correct. Correct. Because you want leaders at all levels. I mean, great leaders don't create followers. They create more leaders. So you want to be able to empower people and set them in the right direction. You know, create those leaders at all levels of the organization and that way they all feel empowered to take ownership of, they see something that needs to be fixed. They fix it. They need somebody who's struggling. They're going to reach out. They need to communicate information. They will communicate that information because they feel empowered and they feel like leaders. And that's what leaders do. If you just have followers, if you just have people out there that are waiting for you to tell them what to do. [00:37:49] That's a lot of work.  [00:37:50] Jason: Yeah. I think that's the challenge is when the way a solopreneur thinks, you know, they start hiring and they're not hiring usually based on what they need as a business or they're hiring based on what the business needs. And so eventually they have an entire team. Yeah. And their first initial team, usually I've noticed, is the wrong team. [00:38:11] They built a team around the wrong puzzle piece. They're showing up involved in wearing hats and doing things they don't really enjoy doing, and they built an entire team around that. And so by default, And the way I get them to realize this, I say, look, if you've got, if you're, you have an entire team and you are still wearing all the hats you don't enjoy wearing or involved in all the things you don't enjoy doing, then by default, you have to have the wrong team. [00:38:38] Kon: I would agree with that. Again, your job is not to sit here and do everybody else's job. The people that you bring onto your team should be willing to do their job and then start reaching at the next level to start taking on more because you've empowered them and you want them to grow. That's the big part of this. [00:38:54] It's a difference between leading a team and doing the work. Just like in even in an organization, but especially when you're an entrepreneur, the first thing that you're going to need to let go of when you start creating a team is the thing that probably got you there. All of the things that you did well, if you're the top performer on your team, you got a problem. [00:39:14] That's a big problem. You need to now start thinking of it as, I need to create a team of high performers as opposed to me being a high performer. And that's a very different thing for salespeople, for managers, for people that have done well in the past. They've done well and they've probably reached this level. [00:39:30] Either they got promoted to a job to the next level, or they started their own business with that mindset, but they have to stop competing with their people. They have to start teaching all of the good things that they've learned that made them successful. So they can now build the team around them. [00:39:47] There's a reason why from the famous Bulls team of the nineties. Why Michael Jordan, the best player potentially in history, is not a coach, as opposed to Steve Kerr, who was on his team and probably was a big player on the Bulls team, but an important one. Steve Kerr understood what it took to become successful. [00:40:08] He watched some of the best. He played with some of the best. He learned how to teach that. Michael worked hard, tirelessly, but at the same time. Steve had so many natural talents, things that came so naturally to him that those things were very difficult, if not impossible for him to teach. So, whereas Steve, with his limitations physically and his talent, understood how to take good players and make them great. [00:40:35] Jason: You know, I love this example. Michael Jordan, though, before he had the right system, was just a showboat. Before he had Phil Jackson, a good coach, before he had Scottie Pippen and the team that he had. That Phil Jackson built around Michael Jordan's abilities. He wasn't winning championships.  [00:40:54] Kon: Correct.  [00:40:55] Jason: It was just a showboat. [00:40:56] And this is, you know, a good analogy when we can take really good people and put them into the right, we create the right environment, the right system. We give them the right system. Then they become. Become rock stars.  [00:41:08] Kon: Correct. And they shine in that. And you see that sometimes like you call them a system quarterback because they shine in that system. [00:41:15] And the thing is at the end of the day, what are you building? You're not building a place to showcase individuals per se. This is not even about the owner or the entrepreneur to some extent. That's not the vanity piece. You want a successful business. You want to be able to build that around people that can get things done for your clients so you can have success however you define success, whether it's the revenues, the profits, the customer satisfaction. [00:41:38] I mean, those are the three key drivers that all businesses are founded on. And then you look at that and you say, okay, It's not about me. And we've got big companies that went to the toilet because their CEOs thought it was all about them. And that's part of the problem. Part of the challenge, Jason, you look at it and say, okay, when did you start building a team? [00:41:56] It's about the team. It's about how are you performing as an organization? It doesn't matter how many followers I have on social media or how many likes I get on my posts, if my business is in the toilet.  [00:42:08] Jason: Yeah. I think one of the challenges I see is that. In the beginning of the journey for entrepreneurs, is there a solopreneur, there's a lot of ego, and there's a lot of self belief they need in order to get started because there's a lot of difficulty, a lot of friction, the challenges that creates a hindrance in the future. [00:42:24] Because one of the initial things I noticed that a lot of solopreneurs believe when they start hiring is what I call the clone myth. They think I just need to clone myself. I need to go find somebody like me cause I'm so special and so adaptable and so important. I need to go find somebody like myself. [00:42:39] And then they wonder why this person maybe steals their clients and eventually starts their own business. Cause you know, they're, that if somebody's like, yeah, instead of finding people that are better than them, and this is kind of the next level, they don't think that people can be better than them. [00:42:54] And my goal is to hire people that are way better at me on all the things that I don't enjoy doing. That's not difficult to do if I don't enjoy doing it I'm, definitely not going to be the best at it and I can definitely find people that are better at it And then when we hire people and then we treat them transactionally, it's like here's a task you return a report and do it, our team members then don't feel safe as you talked about to make decisions. The safest thing is to abdicate all the thinking decision making to me because then they're not responsible for the outcome. [00:43:26] And so this, there's kind of this graduation of having to learn to let go of going from a transactional leadership system to a strategic or sort of planning system where they have outcomes and goals and we'll do whatever's required in order to achieve it by a deadline instead of just being told what to do because you're the smartest person in the room, so to speak. [00:43:47] Kon: Yeah, I mean a couple of things. Let's unpack that for a second if I may. First of all, I aspire to the idea that like you, you have masterminds, you have groups that you coach, you work with people in a group setting as well as one on one. If I find myself being the smartest person in a mastermind in a group, that's the wrong group for me to be in. [00:44:04] Jason: Yeah. Right. So that's the first thing of being in the group. That's one of the best benefits of being in a mastermind is being able to be around other people that excel in different areas, you know, over what you do.  [00:44:18] Kon: Yeah. Correct. So that's number one. Number two, when you are constantly just telling your people what to do and you're asking them to delegate or you're taking ownership of all the thinking you are teaching learned helplessness. [00:44:31] You see it in parents of teenage kids. When you do all of the thinking for them and you just say, "fine, I'll just do it" or "clean up your room. You haven't cleaned it up to my expectations." Well, guess what? Why don't you explain the expectations and show them how to do it?  [00:44:47] You cannot do that. There's a time and a place. [00:44:49] To be very directive with people when they're first learning a task, you want to basically be very highly directive with them. You want to show them step by step how to do that. And as they become more confident and capable, then you start letting go. It's like you take off the training wheels. When you're teaching a kid how to ride a bike, you're not all of a sudden going to stick them on this racing bike and just push them down the hill. [00:45:11] You want to progressively give them a chance to learn and grow from that. That's how you do with your people. Don't expect them all of a sudden to have mastered that. They're not going to be where you are. Show them progressively how to master each step. That takes time, but that's the job of a leader. [00:45:25] Most people look at why "I don't have time to do that." Well, what are you doing? Where are you spending your time? Because to me as a leader, that is your time. You brought these people on, you're paying them a salary.  [00:45:36] Jason: How do people create this learned helplessness? Because people are doing it and they're kind of blind to it. [00:45:42] I would imagine.  [00:45:43] Kon: Correct. Because they keep saying, well, I don't have time to stop and teach you this. Just give it to me. And when you add all of these things onto your plate, time after time, 30 minutes for this, two hours for that four hours for this one day for this, all of a sudden your plate is overflowing and you've taught everybody around you to sit around and wait for you to do it. [00:46:03] Yeah. Because yes, it might take you longer in the moment to teach somebody how to do that task, but that is compounding interest because the next time they'll do it more and more, they'll eventually get good at it. Perhaps even better than you at something, but the fact of the matter is that you are taking off that time over the course of time off your plate. [00:46:26] That's freeing you up to do the other things that you need to be doing. You cannot afford to try to be, again, the best player on your team. If you are, that's a problem. Why did you hire these people?  [00:46:38] Jason: Yeah, it's like we need to trust them with outcomes and give them outcomes to achieve, goals to achieve, instead of just telling them what to do all the  [00:46:47] Kon: time and giving them that. [00:46:47] Correct. That's the paradox. Most people want to measure outputs as opposed to outcomes. Yes, outputs have a place. How many hours did you spend on this? How many calls did you make? How many widgets did you produce? Yes, I get that part, but overall measure people's success based on outcomes, because maybe you care about effort, but most of us care about results in this business. [00:47:12] Jason: You know, this is one of the things when we coach clients on the operational side of things that we've noticed is that, and we have this formula for the ultimate job descriptions we call R docs, and one of the key sections that are usually missing from job descriptions is results. [00:47:27] This is, you know, they'll have the role of the responsibilities, but there's no methodology in this for prioritization, right? And we want to pay as business owners, we want to pay for outcomes. That's really what we want. We're desiring outcomes. We're desiring results. And so I think just clarity on helping our team members understand Why they're doing certain things and understanding why it matters and then understanding what are the outcomes or the results that we want? We get far better results, you know, not so surprisingly. [00:47:56] So, yeah, so be around others that exceed expectations, love the idea of learned helplessness.  [00:48:04] Kon: Yeah. I mean, we condition our people to do certain things a certain way. I mean, we teach them how to do it and from our behaviors, the things we tolerate, the things we accept, the things that we focus on. All of that is sending clear messages to our team about what matters. [00:48:19] We, whether we realize it or not, we're constantly training them and educating them based on the way that we behave. They're going to respond to that. That's what people do. That's what happens in a system. They're going to look at the leader and say, Oh, What kind of mood is he or she in today? I mean, where's he going with this? [00:48:35] And the more unpredictable you are from that, the more people are not feeling safe in this. And again, that comes back to when they know that they can bring you issues and you're not going to fly off the handle when they know that you know what, Hey, you're going to sit there and listen to them. You're going to appreciate what they're saying. [00:48:51] Even if you don't like the message and thank them for the courage to share that with you, you know, good news, bad news doesn't get better with time. And so you want to know these things ahead of time, you want to find ways and then teach them how to solve problems so they can come to you with potential solutions. [00:49:07] Hey boss, this is what I'm thinking. This is what happened. These are the options that I'm thinking. Which way do you think we should go? Let's talk about that. Why do you think we should go this way? Why do you think we should go that way? Again, teach your people, treat them a certain way. I treated my kids, even my entry level kids, even my recreational teams. [00:49:25] I've won championships. Why? Because I treated them as champions before they even won a damn thing. Because I held them to that standard. Treat your team like champions and they will perform that way. Even if they're not the most talented. That's the thing you condition them to do. You create that culture, Jason. [00:49:42] Jason: You know, a lot of things you're touching on just now really speak to the point of empathy and just being empathetic and you know, caring about people and caring about their situation, caring about what they want and figuring out their motives and it seems like, you know, the highest performing teams are not the teams that have the most KPIs or the most metrics. [00:50:02] It's, there's been studies that say it's that there's the most empathy involved. So it's difficult, I think, for business owners to be empathetic though, sometimes.  [00:50:12] Kon: Well, what is empathy? Empathy? We talk about empathy as an emotional intelligence skill. We talk about empathy as our ability to be aware and understand where somebody else is coming from, where they're going, how they're approaching things, how they're processing things. [00:50:26] It's a it's a way to understand and acknowledge others' behaviors, feelings, et cetera. That's a capacity that we have as leaders, as emotionally intelligent leaders to be able to do. That's key. But to me, empathy unto itself in a business environment, especially or a high performance environment is only half of the equation. [00:50:46] Because to me, empathy needs to be paired up with tough love. I want to understand where you're coming from, but I also want to make sure that we set clear expectations through my understanding of what you can produce and what you're willing to produce. I can set clear expectations and boundaries, so we're both safe from that. [00:51:05] I look at back when I was, for example, working with people during The COVID days when we were all stuck and all of a sudden we're all doing virtual teams, or even now in a hybrid environment where we're operating that. That's one of the biggest challenges a lot of leaders have because they don't know how to manage teams when they're not in front of them. [00:51:21] If I can't see the whites of your eyes, how am I going to know you're working? I have that with a lot of my clients. They struggle with that.  [00:51:28] And to me, it's all about the leadership paradox. And one of the paradox elements that I teach is this empathy and tough love. I need to be empathetic with the fact that somebody is working in a very different situation. [00:51:42] Not everybody has a home office like I do, or you do. People sometimes have to work at their kitchen tables. They've got kids, school aged kids that they're trying to be a business person. They're trying to be a teacher at home. They're trying to be a short order cook. They're trying to take care of an aging parent in the background. [00:51:59] And guess what? They may have to pick things up at 10 o'clock at night after they put the kids to bed to try to cram the rest of the work that they didn't get finished during the day To me it's important as an empathetic leader to understand their situation and their plight, but on the other hand I need to protect them through tough love and say look, let's focus on the things that you can do the most important elements. Here are the priorities. If you get nothing else done, I want you to do one two three things this week. When you do them is up to you. I'm understanding your situation, but these are the three things that we need to agree to get done. That now allows me to pair empathy with tough love and that paradox creates a powerful synthesis that now I am leading from an effective way. [00:52:42] Jason: Yeah, I love the idea of tough love because you know tough love is two two words here, right tough and love and if we're tough, if we're just like shoving leadership at them without empathy, then it's cruel, right? They're going to perceive it as cruel. And if we showcase love and empathy, but we don't showcase any leadership, or any toughness or direction for them, then we're almost keeping them in their mediocrity. [00:53:09] Kon: Because with the tough love piece, again, you're setting those firmer boundaries, the expectations, the clear expectations, but you're doing it from a place of caring for them, caring for the team and caring for everything that you're trying to accomplish. That's the part of it. It needs to be that. [00:53:25] And sometimes as a leader, you're going to have to make those difficult decisions or have those difficult conversations with people and see what you can do. You're trying to manage people from where you think they should be. Try managing them from where they truly are. I've had very talented young people that are coming up and I see them as rock stars and the world is their oyster. [00:53:45] But guess what? Something changes in their lives. The priority, a health issue, an ailing parent, a new kid in the family, their priorities change just because I want to promote them and give them more responsibility, they may not be in a position to accept that responsibility. And it's important for us to really understand that because if I burn that person out or force them to make a choice, I put them in a big difficult situation and then I will lose that person. [00:54:11] Again, make sure that you understand how to harness that power and work with people.  [00:54:17] Jason: We need to know our people and we need to care about them. Well, Kon, this has been really enjoyable. I love your ideas. I love your frameworks that you shared with us today. [00:54:25] You had mentioned your business is Fresh Biz Solutions and you have a book, The Engagement Blueprint. Maybe in closing, you could just tell us like, what are they going to find? What was this book and how can they get in touch with you and any closing words?  [00:54:40] Kon: Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, the book is basically A distillation of 30 years of talent management and team building experience. [00:54:49] And in that book, I've spent a couple of years researching what is it that truly drives this level of engagement from people? How can we harness that? How can we build the kind of workplace that we all want to go to, that we all want to be part of? A place where we can raise the level of commitment and performance with our team members and really get the best out of them. [00:55:10] It includes some of my key frameworks, the things that we talked about. Earlier today, it includes my performance framework and the four elements of what I do for my clients. Building competence, building commitment, building teamwork and building systems and how that fits into the four drivers of engagement that we talked about. [00:55:28] So there's a path and pattern and a method to the madness. I've had the opportunity to interview some wonderful leaders, global leaders that have had broad teams, broad, different industries, different circumstances, but people that I have tremendous respect for, and they've all shared their information. [00:55:45] I've got case studies in the book from places where I've applied this, so it's not just my theory or things that I hope will work. I've showed people how this has actually worked in the real world, and they can take those in practical ways and apply them immediately with them. If people want to reach out to me, if the people are ready to work together, if I can support them in their efforts, they can reach out to me either by going to my website, fresh biz, B I Z solutions with an S at the end. com. And they can find a lot of wonderful information there, including a free engagement assessment so they can immediately see how their team is performing, where their strengths are, or they can reach out to me and connect through LinkedIn. That's where I normally play on my social media there. I have posts and newsletters there that come out weekly, and they can find me there under Coach Kon. [00:56:34] Coach Kon with a K, because it's hard to get people to trust you when you spell Kon with a C.  [00:56:40] Jason: There you go. Yeah, probably true. All right. Coach Kon. Great to have you here on the show. Thanks for hanging out with us on the DoorGrow show. Appreciate you being here.  [00:56:49] Kon: Thank you, my friend.  [00:56:50] Jason: All right. So for those of you that enjoy the show, you know, check out his website, freshbizsolutions. com. And if you are a property management business owner and entrepreneur, and you're struggling with adding doors, getting your systems in place. We would love to support you and see if we might be a fi

For those who manage short-term rentals, which tools and pieces of software do you use to keep things organized and running smoothly? In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull brings on Jacob Mueller, founder of Renjoy to talk about using technology to help manage short-term rentals. You'll Learn [01:36] The creation of Renjoy [16:55] Software and systems for STR [25:38] Building out systems using Airtable [34:20] Strategic planning systems Tweetables “One of the things that's different about short term rentals is that it's constantly changing.” “You have to be on top of your game. You can't just do the same thing you've been doing.” “It's kind of like you've got a swiss army knife or one of those multi tools, and it's not the same as having a toolbox of high quality.” “The only thing I want to share with all the property managers out there is keep on doing the hard work.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's kind of like you've got a swiss army knife or one of those multi tools, and it's not the same as having a toolbox of high quality. [00:00:08] Jacob: That's exactly right. To be able to have like specific specialized tools, you then have to know what you're doing to accumulate those tools and have them all talking and speaking to each other, but if you do it right, very powerful.  [00:00:21] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:22] Now, let's get into the show. All right. Today's guest, I'm hanging out with Jacob Mueller from Renjoy. Jacob, welcome to the DoorGrow show.  [00:01:33] Jacob: Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here. Jason.  [00:01:36] Jason: Glad to have you. So Jacob, give us a little bit of your background in maybe entrepreneurism and how you eventually got connected maybe to rentals, property management, and and then we can get into Renjoy. [00:01:51] Jacob: Sure. Well, I won't give you the full backstory. It goes all the way back to a college class I took, but I really started getting into real estate right at the perfect time, beginning of ZIRP, zero interest rate era. And I was actually a commercial broker for a little while. I did about six months of leasing and realized I did not enjoy that. [00:02:09] And so then I transitioned to a residential property management firm based out of Denver that focused on investors. When I joined them, Atlas Real Estate, they're in, I don't know, five or six states now. But when I joined them, they were only in Colorado. They managed maybe 2, 500 doors and I was kind of their regional broker in Colorado Springs, which is where I am. [00:02:30] And they are now, I think north of 10, 000 units under management and have grown tremendously on the management side. But I learned a ton from these folks. I learned how to flip property. I learned to invest in real estate. I learned a lot. And so that's kind of where my real estate investing career started. [00:02:46] That was about four or five years ago. And since then I've acquired single family homes some small multi units. And then I've also diversified in my income streams from just long term tenants to also short term tenants. And that's kind of where the story of Renjoy begins. One of my clients and I worked with, as a broker, happened to have quite a few Airbnbs, short term rentals. [00:03:09] And he was buying properties like every six months. And I was trying to figure out how is this guy, he's my age, how's this, you know, 28 year old buying so many properties so quickly back to back? So I started learning about his process and his insights into the industry. And I thought, man, this guy's got, a peg on this industry. [00:03:25] And of course, during ZIRP, Airbnbs were easy, making money was easy, everybody was doing it. And so I saw this interesting opportunity, decided to partner with this client of mine, and another client actually. And we formed Renjoy together with our own portfolio to start.  [00:03:40] Jason: Nice. Okay. So what is Renjoy?  [00:03:45] Jacob: Yeah, so Renjoy is kind of an unintended consequence. [00:03:48] It was not our plan. It's a short term rental property management business. But when we first started the company, it was just to manage our own portfolios. And people started asking us to manage theirs because short term rentals and long term rentals are complex and difficult and a lot of work. And so owners are constantly looking to handover management for these things. [00:04:09] Jason: Yeah. And that can be a challenge. You know, with those short term rentals. I mean, everything has to move quick, right? You're having to check and adjust prices every day to make sure you're getting the, you know, the best rate possible. You need to communicate like immediately all the time with all the guests and then, you know, then like you're trying to figure out how to make sure you're getting as many people through this property as possible But not getting it damaged and then maintenance stuff hasn't dealt with like super fast Or people get really frustrated and upset and so it's a difficult game and then for you know for people managing short term rentals It's almost like a cleaning talent acquisition business more than it is a property management business And so, how does Renjoy help with this stuff? [00:05:02] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many ways we can go with this, Jason. A lot of what you were saying, you know, resonates with me. I think there's an increased complexity on the stakeholder relationships that we have as a manager. All property managers have this complexity where they have their tenant who is a stakeholder. [00:05:18] They need a tenant to pay rent. And they also need to have properties with which to have a tenant pay rent on. And so all of the property managers have this balance they have to walk between these stakeholders. They have to serve their tenants and they have to serve their landlords, their property owners. We're the same, but one of the challenges is our tenants leave us reviews. [00:05:38] Every single time they stay and so there's this increased out of, shall we say, accountability almost on how we manage our relationship with this key stakeholder, the guests that are coming to the properties, the tenants, but also the owners too. And then this all leads to the same challenges all property managers have, which is balancing meeting your tenant's requests for service, for maintenance, kind of meeting their expectations while also keeping costs as low as possible and trying to meet the owner's expectations. And you have to constantly balance that when you're thinking about maintenance and your service level agreements and how they can get impacted by the occupant versus the owner. [00:06:16] So that's one thing that's really complex. But there's a lot of things we can get into with short term rentals. We are a full service short term rental management company. This is another pretty big distinction between long term rental property managers and short term is that the suite of services provided varies quite a bit from one short term rental manager to another. [00:06:36] Not to say that long term rental managers are all the same, but generally speaking, there's a pretty similar core group of services that all long term property managers provide for their clients.  [00:06:47] Jason: Got it. So, Is Renjoy a service that those that listening that are running a property management business are you their competitor or is there a way that they can work with you or how does that work? [00:07:00] Jacob: Great question. I do not believe we're competitors. We don't do long term rental property management and we refer out for that. And so we actually kind of have a lot of good relationships with our property managers, mutual referring relationships, actually, in the markets in which we serve.  [00:07:16] Jason: So what you're saying is long term residential property managers, if they're not wanting to deal with the complexity of short term property management, is there a way they can sort of partner with you and maybe get paid? [00:07:28] Jacob: Absolutely. Yeah. We have a referral program. And for everybody who signs a contract with us, it's a thousand bucks. Easy peasy. And if the property manager happens to also be a practicing broker, we actually do work to execute exclusive right to lists in our property management agreements, which is assignable. [00:07:46] And so we just assign, should that client that you've referred to us choose to list their property, we can actually reassign that exclusive right to list back to you as the property manager slash broker.  [00:07:56] Jason: Got it. Okay. So that's an additional benefit. They can keep the real estate deals.  [00:08:00] Jacob: That's right.  [00:08:01] Jason: Got it. [00:08:03] Okay. So for those that are investors listening and, you know, we have a lot of property managers and they should be investors as well if they believe in real estate investing, right. And they're servicing people doing it. So they're probably investors as well. If their primary focus is longterm residential management, but they're wanting to, you know, get a couple of short term properties in their market, but they don't want to do short term management. And they're buying these properties. Why should they choose you to do it instead of having the side job or why do investors tend to choose you instead of doing it themselves? [00:08:38] Jacob: Yeah. That's a good question. In general, actually, Jason, what I would say is if you are depending on your life and what all you have going on in your life, generally speaking, I recommend folks who are buying their first Airbnb to run it themselves because there's just a lot of things you need to learn and understand. [00:08:55] And I actually would say the same thing about long term rentals. I would say you as the homeowner or the property owner should try to manage it yourself. Because then you understand the challenges that, you know, your property manager might face and you know what to look for in a good property manager. [00:09:09] Same thing applies for short term rental management as well. So if your listeners are looking at acquiring their first one, my recommendation is do it first of all. And then second of all, learn the ropes, do it yourself, understand the challenges and the complexities, and then go and shop around for a manager because it's expensive to switch. [00:09:28] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So my wife and I, we got a short term rental so that we can do client events at it and stuff like this. And, and so we'll bring clients in and we'll use that and then in the like in between we'll just we'll use short term rental it and send it out for other people to use right and so, but even with this one property like to make this to manage it well, we've got a whole suite of tools in order to like make this efficient and, you know, sarah my wife she runs it and she went through a whole university and a course and like all this stuff to like, learn how, learn the game and learn how to do photos different than typical real estate photos and like all this stuff. [00:10:11] And so, you know, to figure everything out to get this working and it's working really well, but. It just seems like a lot. It seems like a lot of stuff. So what competitive advantage do you feel like Renjoy like affords over people that eventually they figure out how to do all this stuff. They've got all these tools, but it still takes a bunch of time and they don't want to do it. [00:10:30] Jacob: Yeah, I know. That's right. It is actually very complex. It's also not static. One of the things that's different about short term rentals is that it's constantly changing. For acquiring the guests, meeting the demand out there, capturing the existing demand for short term lodging, you have to be on top of your game. [00:10:47] You can't just do the same thing you've been doing. In fact, we see quite a few property owners now who are kind of getting off that ZIRP high, you know, 2020, 2021, 2022, when people were spending like crazy, and now their properties aren't cash flowing very well. They're not capturing the demand that's in their market nearly as well because the game has changed. [00:11:04] They're saying, Hey, I'm doing everything the same I did before, but my revenue is going down. I don't understand why.  [00:11:10] The reality is, you have to compete you're competing with actually folks like us who have this professionalization of the industry, which I think is going on right now in short term rentals. [00:11:20] And one of the big challenges with an individual owner operator is not only do you have to message your guests promptly, you have to make sure they check in, check out okay. You have to check for damages after the stay, you have to organize the cleaning, you have to organize the house or the maintenance, you have to do all that. [00:11:35] But on top of that, the big thing that I see people miss is that you have to be on your pricing every day. I mean, you have to not just use algorithmic based pricing with some of these tools like Price Labs or Wheelhouse or something like that. You have to be doing it every day. And when you're looking at your pricing every day, you can't just look at your property. [00:11:53] You have to compare it to all your comp sets and see, hey, who's booked on these, you know, next 10 days and at what rates and where do I sit in that comp set and what do I need to do to my prices today to capture the existing demand before somebody else in my comp set captures that, that guest or that demand. [00:12:11] And it's very hands on. And so one of the big advantages of a property manager like us is we have, you know, two people full time looking at pricing for every property.  [00:12:20] Jason: So, and how many properties do you guys over right now?  [00:12:24] Jacob: We manage about 165.  [00:12:27] Jason: Yeah. And so with 165, you, two people are able to handle all the pricing checks and updates on a daily basis. [00:12:34] Jacob: That's right. Because not every property is unique, right? We have comp sets. So if you have Let's say 15 two bedroom, one bath units that are all, let's say, basements or, you know, attached ADUs, and they're all in the same geographical area, we could do a lot of pricing at the same time for all 15 of those units because we're trying to capture that segment of the demand. [00:12:56] Jason: Got it. Got it. Okay. So, so for those that are listening, they're managing short term rentals. And maybe they're not doing that, that one missing piece very effectively. What would you recommend that they do?  [00:13:11] Jacob: You have to, I mean, I think you have to do that, right? I mean, big part of the value proposition of a property manager for short term rentals. [00:13:18] This is key for all your listeners who are thinking about buying a short term rental too. Short term rental property managers are expensive. And so, you want to ensure whichever manager you choose to hire is going to exceed or excel or expand beyond what you might otherwise earn in revenue to offset that cost. [00:13:35] And so, if there's a property manager out there doing short term rentals and they don't have a sophisticated pricing strategy, I would say your value proposition is very weak because you're going to charge, you know, a large percentage of commission on what's already coming in without necessarily increasing the amount of revenue coming in to offset that cost for your property owners. [00:13:53] And I think you're going to end up in a tight spot when your owners aren't making enough money. And another manager can increase or boost their earnings. So I would say get on it. There's no reason not to. There's a lot of access to global talent who knows how to do this kind of stuff. So it's not a lack of talent or even that they're terribly expensive. [00:14:11] You can get a pretty good program implemented. Okay.  [00:14:15] Jason: Well then let's allow you to poison the well a little bit against any of your competitors. So let's talk about then what, how do you find and vet a good short term rental management company? I mean, everybody, when they hear what I do, if I'm at a cocktail party or an event or anything, I hear people all the time. [00:14:34] Oh, I had some rental properties, but man, it was a nightmare. And I got rid of them. And I'm like, maybe you should've just got a property manager, but in short term, like if they're not cash flowing, or it's not making money, or it's not working out it could sometimes be the property manager. [00:14:50] Especially based on what you're saying. So what would be the biggest initial filter? Would it be that? Would it be, Hey, how often are you checking the pricing on the property? And what's your pricing strategy?  [00:14:59] Jacob: You know, it's tough because you can, you know, with anybody, they can tell you whatever they want. [00:15:03] You have to like verify. And so I would always say there are a lot of like basic ground rules, questions similar to what you're saying, Jason, where, Hey, tell me about your pricing strategy. Tell me about how you will price my property. Tell me about how you'll handle work orders when things come up. Like tell me about your communication strategy with guests. [00:15:22] Tell me about your philosophy on refunding for issues or how you handle cancellations or how do you handle damages? Like all of these like key components, you'll weed out a lot of crummy property managers that way. Actually, if you just go through, Hey, here's the 15 core things you got to do just to be a worthwhile candidate for property management for me. Here's the 15 main things, but to go beyond that's when you have to start doing things like show me your Airbnb account that has all your reviews and going through that list and pick, you know, out of the last three months, find a bunch of reviews and ask them to explain what happened on those poor reviews. [00:15:59] Hey, this guest said this thing happened. What all what happened on your end? And just literally do your due diligence on guest reviews to see how the guest stakeholders are impacted by this manager. And then furthermore, try to find another owner. There's kind of a reputation game here where you need to understand, Hey, has this owner been with you a long time? [00:16:19] Why are they with you? Are they happy with you? Have they considered transitioning to another manager? Kind of a lot of stuff you would expect. And it is a lot of due diligence, I will say, but I think it has a very large impact on the performance of your property.  [00:16:32] Jason: Yeah, no, I think that's significant. [00:16:35] So you've kind of built a platform for your business, correct? With Renjoy. And so tell us a little bit about that. How is that unique? Maybe some others listening might get inspired if they're doing short term management, but explain how what kind of your, maybe that's your competitive advantage. [00:16:55] Jacob: I would say it is. And this actually, I think Jason would apply for all of your audience, even long term rental property managers. One of the things that we've been thinking really carefully about with our business as we're growing is who owns our data our property data, our guest data, our owner data, like where's that data being held. [00:17:16] And if it's being held by a third party, like our property management software provider, in our case, guesty, in your case, you know, at folio or whatever, when you think carefully about where that data is going, you have to ask yourself, am I okay with this third party data provider being the one who's going to initiate, you know, improvements to how we interact with our data? [00:17:39] Am I okay with them developing all those features and all that kind of stuff? Or do I want to have control over that based off of my needs and what I see in the market?  [00:17:46] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:47] Jacob: And I'm not saying this is for everybody, but because we are more, I would say, tech focused and tech forward as a company, we've decided to keep that data in house. [00:17:56] And so, we use a third party tool called Airtable. I'm sure some of your audience members will be familiar with this tool. All right.  [00:18:02] Jason: Airtable geek.  [00:18:03] Jacob: Oh yeah, we love it.  [00:18:04] Jason: We run our business off of it.  [00:18:05] Jacob: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. We do too. And so, we use our property management software because you need it. [00:18:12] Right. We use it to handle our reservation data, all the calendars kind of, it's where we actually push all of our listings to market them to acquire the guests and all of our reservation data flows through there as well. But it all flows from our property management software tool into airtable. And some of it flows back and forth. But what it allows us to do is we can pull in all of our work orders from another software. We can pull in all of our accounting from another software. We can pull in whatever kind of data we want into Airtable. And we can relate the data in ways that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do, if you're using a single tool. [00:18:46] For example, Guesty, our property management software has work orders in it. It has review management in it. It has accounting in it. It has everything in it. But the problem is If you use the full suite of services within your main software provider, your property management software provider, typically, each of those ancillary services are not best in class. [00:19:08] And so, you're constrained on what you can do with the tool that you have. And we very much want to be constrained with, you know, our own kind of creativity and our own ability to create efficiency in our business  [00:19:20] Jason: It's kind of like you've got a swiss army knife or one of those multi tools, and it's not the same as having a toolbox of high quality. [00:19:28] Jacob: That's exactly right. Yeah, but it's complicated and it's costly I mean you have to be able to have like specific specialized tools. You then have to know what you're doing to accumulate those tools and have them all talking and speaking to each other, but if you do it right, very powerful. [00:19:44] Jason: Got it. Okay. So, and you're using guest CSPM software and then you've paired it up sort of with Airtable, it's feeding data into Airtable and then because you have it in Airtable, you're able to probably notice patterns more, run reports with the data. You then can create automations and things that happen from, you know, Airtable, maybe, are you using Zapier? [00:20:08] Jacob: Oh, of course. Yeah. We use Zapier and make as well for certain things. We also do have a little bit of Python scripting, but that's, it's very powerful.  [00:20:17] Jason: That's getting really nerdy.  [00:20:19] Jacob: So yeah, it's not me. Let's put it that way. It's not me doing it.  [00:20:23] Jason: Right.  [00:20:24] Jacob: But let me give you an example, Jason, of how these things work together and are really powerful. [00:20:28] So we have a lot of our housekeepers are actually in house now. They're W 2s. They're paid hourly. One of the big challenges is You can't have a manager inspect every single turnover. I mean, we've had like 72 cleans in a single day on Labor Day weekend. So there's no way you can cost effectively have somebody inspect every single clean. [00:20:49] Like it's just not possible.  [00:20:51] Jason: Right.  [00:20:51] Jacob: And so how do you hold cleaners accountable? How do you actually rank them? How do you know whether they're doing a good job or not? Other than after the fact, the next guest says, "Hey, this place is terrible."  [00:21:00] Jason: Right.  [00:21:01] Jacob: What we actually do is we do that. When the review is generated. [00:21:05] From a guest stay. Okay, now if that review mentions any kind of cleanliness issue or whatever, the review is an object in Airtable, then gets linked to the person, that is the cleaner, who is also in Airtable, and we can say, hey, who cleaned before this review? And we can actually tag that review and tie it to the cleaner, the person, and we can rank them. [00:21:26] And so we can say this person has an overall ranking of 4. 9 out of 5 on their cleanings over the last however many cleans. We can actually go back and look at every single turnover they did and what was the guest report afterwards. And by that, we can eliminate cleaners who are not doing a good job. [00:21:43] Anybody below 4. 9, you just eliminate and then you refill that pipeline. And Yeah, by having that connection, it's really powerful. That accountability happens way faster. That's what you're trying to do. If you're trying to speed it up,  [00:21:55] Jason: right? Because you have the data, you've got the timestamp of the review. [00:21:59] You can then check who was the cleaner before this review and, you know, and. You know, figure that out and then you can link to the cleaner and then you've got a database of all your cleaners I'm sure in air table and all the cleaners in Airtable. You've got these Cross links to all their reviews that are affiliated with them And then you've got a rating that you can see and so each cleaner is rated in your system yeah. [00:22:24] Yeah, so you're connecting the reviews to the cleaners  [00:22:27] So you with that data you're able to make much faster decisions as to whether, and it's not just like, you know, the really noisy, greasy, squeaky wheels that you're kind of paying attention to. Wow. This cleaner is really horrible. Who did this? [00:22:42] You know, you're able to just look at it almost like a spreadsheet and see, all right, these cleaners are performing at the top. These are not so much. We're going to send more work to these ones, maybe less than these ones are gone.  [00:22:53] Jacob: Yeah, that's right. You gamify it too. They enjoy it. I mean, it's a little bit of a friendly competition too. [00:22:58] Cause what we do is we display with a dashboard. Hey, who are the top 10 cleaners this month? Or like, it's actually live dashboard. So like, Hey, who are the top 10 cleaners? You know, we have 35 or 40 cleaners. And so, you know, if you're not on the top 10, you know, you're not on the top 10, but those who are on the top 10 are constantly competing with each other to be the best. [00:23:17] And there's a lot of shuffling going on. So yeah,  [00:23:20] Jason: I love that. That's great.  [00:23:22] Jacob: That's just one example. There's a lot of things where if you own the data, you can connect it and gain insights in ways you would not otherwise gain from a lot of tools because the people who build the software are not managing property. [00:23:35] So, they don't know what you're trying to understand about your property. They just say, Oh, you need accounting? Here's some accounting. It's like, well, but they don't understand the complexities around trust accounting and how I'm spending money on behalf of the owner. So, they don't make it easy for me to send and receive invoices within their accounting software. [00:23:50] I have to do that outside. Then I have to reconcile it with their trust accounting module. It's like, they just don't understand what you're doing. And so, their tools are often pretty, pretty weak.  [00:23:59] Jason: Okay, cool. Yeah, I love Airtable, man. We geek out on it. We use it for our client success database. We use it for our planning system. [00:24:09] We built DoorGrowOS in it. We built our applicant tracking system and hiring system in it. And built a bunch of stuff in it. So if you're a property manager and you're using Airtable, then let me know, like reach out to me. I'd be curious to see what kind of things other property managers are doing in order to you know, leverage Airtable. [00:24:30] And how they're using this in their business. I know there's some out there doing it. I've seen it in some of the groups and they're leveraging Airtable to keep track of things. So. All right airtable is really cool. Basically for those that aren't familiar with Airtable, it on the surface, it looks like a Google sheet sort of, but the difference is It's beyond just spreadsheets. It's a database software and really it's now considered no code software because to have software, you need input, you need data storage, and then you need output and so you can build in air table forms or things to entry under data or you can even connect it to zapier or other automation softwares or tools to feed data into it so you have input and then you have data storage and you can build really complicated databases of stuff where things are cross linked and then based on that then you can create dashboards or extensions or output or feed data to other systems based on that data. [00:25:32] And so, yeah, so there's some really cool stuff that you can do with Airtable. So, yeah, so give me another example of something cool that you do in Airtable that you think is may be relevant to property managers.  [00:25:44] Jacob: Yeah, we actually incorporated our CRM into Airtable and the main reason for that is because Oh,  [00:25:52] Jason: Airtable is your CRM? [00:25:54] Yeah.  [00:25:55] Okay, got it.  [00:25:57] Jacob: There are some limitations with it, of course, but because we're not doing like mass, we're not doing like really mass marketing, we have really good lists. So we're not targeting like a ton of people because it's very B2B.  [00:26:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:26:07] Jacob: And we don't necessarily want everybody short term rental. [00:26:09] Like we're very particular on which properties we want to manage. So anyway, one of the benefits of it is when you're going through the sales process, right? A lot of that process is discovery of property data. Not just owner data, owner problems, whatever. It's also property data. And so, we noticed this huge inefficiency in a lot of sales processes where the salespeople learn all about the property, they get them signed, and then they hand them off and they don't communicate all of the things that they learned about the property. [00:26:38] And then you have to relearn and the owner's like, I already told you this. Like, now I have to tell you about this furnace again, and this AC unit again, and this hot water heater, and this thing about the backyard, and this thing about the sprinkler. This thing about the neighbor, this thing about the, like, there's just on and on. [00:26:49] It's a lot of work for the owner. And so what we've done is we've built that data intake to your whole point about what software is for that data intake that the sales person is collecting through the whole process gets built into the system. So that when that lead converts, that opportunity converts into a client. [00:27:07] All of that data goes straight into the property data, and the onboarding team just has to fill in the gaps. And so it really smooths the transition of data from sales to operations.  [00:27:18] Jason: Yeah we sync and merge our CRM, our sales CRM, which is our tool for communication and our text, email, phone, everything fees through our CRM with our existing clients with perspective clients, all that, but we have it sync to our client success database for our existing clients that are in our mastermind and our coaching programs. [00:27:42] And it feeds data across. So for example, we'd like to track how many doors our clients have. We have them complete a weekly check in form. The air table and they're providing their monthly revenue, their door counts. We capture this data and we use this to build what we call proof bombs later that are like visual testimonials that people can absorb seconds, which is an idea I learned from Sharran Srivatsaa, which is the CEO of real and brilliant guy and he taught this to Alex Hormozi. [00:28:13] Alex Hormozi used it in his book launch. As they're showing all these people getting results And so we have the data to prove that our clients are getting results over time and we can show the time period so it just feels more credible. And that data syncs over to our crm and updates their door count updates these things So when we're talking with them in the crm We can communicate with them. [00:28:36] And so we've we're always geeking out and optimizing our system, our client success database, everything so that we can better take care of our clients. Like we have a photo of every client's face in our database. We can learn who they are and know who they are and know their names. So when they show up, Recognize them and yeah, so we stalk them a little bit to get a photo or we capture their face on one of the Zoom calls that they show up on or something, but my team are responsible to make sure Every client has we have a photo. [00:29:06] We have the name. We know their current door count. We know what they're working on and and then yeah, we've got some other really cool things that we've done recently as well so we're always improving this and. Because our key system we run our entire business on is called DoorGrow OS. [00:29:21] It's a planning system that we've built out in Airtable. We coach clients on how to do this as well. And it really, I believe, is our greatest competitive advantage.  [00:29:30] Jacob: So do you, like, white label an Airtable instance for those clients?  [00:29:33] Jason: So what we do with our clients is we have an enterprise Airtable account and then we give them, we create or duplicate some of our proprietary Airtables that we built for clients and give them access to these. [00:29:47] Jacob: I think this is brilliant. I actually think if there's any property managers out there who are thinking about this, the value that Jason's offering actually through pre building or pre packaging an Airtable setup on how your processes should flow accordingly. That's actually extremely valuable. It's fascinating that you're doing that, Jason, because we've been thinking about it ourselves for a short time. [00:30:07] Jason: So we never really built the process system, because we partner with Flussos, another company that has this brilliant flowchart process software,  [00:30:16] Because I think there's three levels of process I've talked about, but the level one is process documentation, which is really shitty because people don't really read processes. [00:30:26] It's like the owner's manual in the glove box of your car, right? Then there's the next level is checklist and that's okay. We've used process street stuff like that in the past. Some will use lead simple. Checklist has its own inherent flaws that the more complicated the process the more only one person understands how to change it or edit it or make it work and then there's like the next the third level which is is visual workflow and this is where everybody understands it and they're clear on it. So visual workflow, what that's done is it's allowed me the nerd to not have to do processes anymore. My team all understand them. They can see them and they can be crazy complicated because it's like playing with flow chart, Visio. [00:31:06] And that's where the processes are built. So that's been a game changer for us, but everything else, like our planning system, and our hiring system, this is where I think Airtable really magically shines because we can custom tailor their hiring system for particular needs. Like we have a client who's adding like 114 doors in like, like a month or two, or like he's just has this ridiculous. [00:31:30] And so his biggest constraint is hiring maintenance technicians. And he lost two he had four. So now he's down. He was down to two He got on a call with me and he was using our DoorGrow ats our applicant tracking system and we talked with him about cloning the application form reducing it to get more maintenance text to flow through, reducing the difficulty and then giving them working interviews and my coaching for him was you need to be probably hiring four techs a month and firing two or three. [00:32:01] That's right. That's exactly right. Which is very different. And so I explained to him, I was like, you are no longer property management business because your business now, your biggest constraint, your business now is, and you need to swallow this pill that your business now is a maintenance talent acquisition company. [00:32:19] And once he's like owns that, then he'll move on to another level boss in the video game of business, you know, but that's the business he's in now. It was originally, it was like, Oh, we're in the business of trying to get clients. And then he was in the business of trying to deal with getting on clients. [00:32:34] And now it's maintenance, right, technician. And hiring and keeping that going. So just like short-term rentals is largely a game of cleaning, and hiring. Yeah. No, I mean, we have a recruiter managing cleaners.  [00:32:48] Jacob: Yeah. We have a full-time recruiter. I mean, yeah, we have a constant pipeline of cleaners. Same with maintenance techs. [00:32:53] I mean, yeah, it is. It is. And you have to be shedding them, just like you shed property owners too sometimes.  [00:32:59] Jason: Yeah, we also built a rental property analysis tool that our clients use with real estate agents in air table We had some programmers do some custom coding to do some of the more complex formulas that you can't do an air table like amortization schedules and stuff like this And so they're able to create these really cool one page reports for a rental property that are branded with their branding and have their pricing built into it as a property manager, that they can get the real estate agents that are working with investors, they're working on deals, or trying to attract investors, that they can then put on their rental listings to show how that property could either cashflow or in the long run would be a better investment than maybe investing in the stock market. [00:33:41] Jacob: So it's a great idea. We do something similar. Again, part of our sales process is we, when a lead converts to an opportunity, we basically have this template pro forma that gets generated from fields within air table, but it's a Google sheet template. So it allows us to do more is what we want in the Google sheet because it's not just a single page. [00:34:00] It's, you know, there's quite a few pages because short term rentals are very complex in terms of setting them up. Your setup costs, your startup costs are quite large and having a reliable, accurate number for startup costs is actually remarkably difficult. With Airbnb, so similar process, you end up with kind of the same result. [00:34:18] Here's an accurate projection.  [00:34:20] Jason: Awesome. Well, cool. Well, maybe we'll have to hang out off out and geek out on some air table stuff. So, but yeah, this has been our competitive advantage. Largely is our planning system and cadence of annual planning, quarterly planning, monthly planning, and have a database where it's all late cross linked. [00:34:37] And so we In our system team members, and clients that use this their team members show up and there's we're keeping track of all the wins. So there's this culture of winning and Nobody wants to show up getting a red no on their weekly commitments. They're getting they want to get a green Yes, and so this is outside of our daily tactical stuff, this is our strategic goals. [00:35:00] And so it gets my entire team focused on innovation on moving towards goals and outcomes moving forward instead of just their daily tactical work, which we're using DoorGrow Flow or Flussos that visual workflow tool. And so that's allowed us to I think that's our strongest competitive advantage is that [00:35:19] other businesses, usually the entrepreneur comes in, throws out a bunch of goals and ideas and it's like a pulling the pin on a grenade. If they get back from a conference to their team and their team trying to do their tactical daily work and they're like, how are we going to do all this? And there's no real plan or clarity and they rarely achieve any of their goals or outcomes that they're aiming for. [00:35:41] And we, on a weekly basis, our goal is we have sometimes four somewhere between 30 to 50 commitments between everyone on my executive team And they've committed to that week that are going towards our 30 day goals And we get at least our goal is to hit 80 percent and we do that with consistency. Now, years and 80 percent of our goals. [00:36:03] And which means our 30 day goals are largely almost always achieved. And which means our quarterly goals are almost always achieved and annually hit our goals. And so we move really fast. We get a lot of stuff done and we innovate a lot in our coaching business. And I don't think there's. And I work with some of the best coaches in the industry. [00:36:23] So we've really built something. I think that's pretty amazing. And we just, we roll out new things like every month. And that innovation has, that system has allowed it us to innovate. And I'm the way we've set up DoorGrow OS and Sarah runs this, my, she's our operator and my wife, she's always like, we vote on things. [00:36:43] We get feedback on things. And she's like, not you, Jason, you're last. Like I'm always last to speak. So I don't end up as the emperor with no clothes in my own business. So anyway, yeah, Airtable is pretty cool. So, yeah, that'd be interesting to see if there's some other ways in which our clients could leverage or use Airtable for keeping track of their own clients because that's not something we played around much with, but.  [00:37:06] Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.  [00:37:08] Jason: Cool. Well, Jacob, for those that are interested in getting their property managed by you, what, which markets do you cover and how do they get ahold?  [00:37:18] Jacob: Yeah. So we do have full service management in Colorado, kind of, Southern Colorado, so South of Denver, Colorado Springs, and then further West. [00:37:27] And we also manage in Gulf coast, Florida between Tampa Bay and Fort Myers. So, we're in these two geographic areas for full service, but going back to the pricing thing, we've realized that there are a lot of property owners who love the hospitality side of the Airbnbs, but not the pricing side. That's not why they got into it. [00:37:46] We actually do have a pricing service. Where we market and distribute your listing on a bunch of different booking channels. So a lot of people are seeing your listing and we do the daily pricing for your property. So you don't have to do that. And then you do the cleaning, the maintenance, and the interaction with the guests. [00:38:03] You take care of the property. It's your account. They're your reviews. They're your guests. We don't interact with them. And that is global, a global service.  [00:38:11] Jason: Oh, so that's a service that property managers could use, self managers could use. Yep. Okay. Yeah. Great. In fact,  [00:38:17] Jacob: we do have some small property managers using it. [00:38:19] .  [00:38:19] Jason: Alright, cool. So, how does that work?  [00:38:23] Jacob: Yeah, so it really depends on the client. Like with a property manager and some property managers are for their own portfolios. Some, you know, are managing for others. It really depends on the property situation and the setup that's currently in place. But the most common thing is there's an owner operator who says, Hey, I don't want to do the pricing. [00:38:40] I'm getting crushed by my competitors because I'm not doing this algorithmic based pricing and I'm not reviewing it daily. So we come in and we say, okay, great. I see you're on Airbnb or I see you're on VRBO or I see you're just on Airbnb and VRBO. What we do is we come in and we create a bunch more booking channels for you and we aggregate it into a white labeled property management software. [00:39:00] It's not guesty actually. It's a different software tool. So the owner only has one place to go for their calendar, for their messaging. It's all in one place. They don't have to do anything. And then we create those listings and then we market them and then we continue to price them on an ongoing basis and to reset their prices. [00:39:16] to compete whichever market they're in.  [00:39:18] Jason: Got it. And is this a fairly affordable service? It is.  [00:39:22] Jacob: Yes, it's very low cost compared to full service short term rental management. And it also doesn't have any, like, contracts or anything. It's just day to day.  [00:39:29] Jason: Okay, devil's advocate, what if, some listening might be like, well, why would I trust them to price my property when they might have properties in my market? [00:39:38] Like, if they're in a market that you're in, like Colorado, what if they're going to Price there's better or more competitively than my own.  [00:39:45] Jacob: That's a great question. Yeah. No, it's a great question. And actually it's related to kind of one of the things that we set out strategically for our market. [00:39:53] Like Colorado Springs, we manage about 120 properties in Colorado Springs out of about 3000 Airbnbs. And we kind of set our market cap at about, or sorry, as large, our market saturation at about 200 units in the Springs. So, we actually won't go above managing 200 properties in Colorado Springs for this very reason. [00:40:10] The cannibalizing of market share. Now, that gets even more detailed where it's not just properties total, but also comp sets. So, if we have more than, let's say, 10 percent of the two bedroom properties in Colorado Springs, we're going to start cannibalizing our own market. And so, we actually have limits on the sizes of properties within our specific markets. [00:40:30] So, right now we actually are pretty, we're pretty darn close to being capped out at one bedrooms and two bedrooms. So, we don't really take on those units anymore.  [00:40:38] Jason: Got it. Just 10 bedrooms now.  [00:40:41] Jacob: Yeah, that's right. 3, 4, 5, 6. We don't have any 10s. We have a 9, but that's the biggest.  [00:40:48] Jason: Yeah. You're not in some giant family reunion markets? [00:40:52] Jacob: No, we are. We're in Two Springs. I mean, that place sleeps, I'm talking to a lady now. She's got a place that sleeps 60. So, that'll be That would be a family reunion for sure.  [00:41:02] Jason: Well, cool. So that sounds like an interesting service. Maybe I'll have Sarah check it out. So, cause I know she's checking the pricing every day. [00:41:09] I think she kind of enjoys it though.  [00:41:11] Jacob: Yeah, that's totally fine. Yeah. If you enjoy it, then we are not, you know, like it's for people who is like pulling teeth, right? Like I hate doing this. I don't, or I'm not like really into the whole game theory around pricing. Like that doesn't interest me. That kind of thing. [00:41:25] Jason: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it'd be interesting to have her do a demo with you guys and see how it compares to what she's doing and whether she would trust it or not. Yeah. That'd be interesting. I mean, she's checking  [00:41:35] Jacob: it every day, Jason, she's probably doing, you know, she's already like 85 percent of the way there. [00:41:40] Yeah.  [00:41:41] Jason: Yeah. I don't know, but I think it's interesting. There's you know, there's a lot of property managers that do short term rentals that they're not doing anything like this. And they just not, and they basically set it sort of at a rate that's similar and maybe occasionally they'll adjust it, but they're trying to just let it happen and yeah. [00:42:02] And then the owners get frustrated because they're like, why isn't this renting out as often? Or, you know, it's renting out a lot, but why am I not getting paid very much? You know?  [00:42:11] Jacob: Yeah. It's this passive versus active approach, right? I always tell owners like, Hey, there's two kinds of demands. There's existing demand for short term lodging. [00:42:20] These are people who are coming to your market no matter what. They're already coming, now they're looking for lodging. But there's a second kind of demand that's really important, which is the generated demand. These are people who aren't coming to your market and wouldn't otherwise come to your market if you hadn't reached out to them first. [00:42:34] So you're generating demand by marketing, essentially. And so we have a pretty sophisticated system for marketing to very specific or very likely customers to then book and come and stay because of your property that they wouldn't otherwise have come. And so that's a really big distinction with a lot of property managers. [00:42:52] They just look at existing demand and try to capture their share of existing demand versus generating net new demand. So as an example of how we do this. We require our owners to have our tech package in their property. And part of what is included in that tech package is a commercial wifi router system. [00:43:10] So every guest, not just the one who books the property, but every guest who comes to the property and wants to access the internet has to give us their phone and email. And so we build a massive database for marketing towards for guests, direct guest marketing.  [00:43:23] Jason: Wow. Okay.  [00:43:24] Jacob: A lot of managers don't do that. [00:43:26] Jason: So, the managers out there that would, these pieces, they don't even enjoy doing it. Like the advanced pricing service. And maybe there's some other little things you can help them with as well. They can reach out to you and get this and you said you mentioned white label does that mean they're able to still maintain their brand and people aren't in your business name. [00:43:46] And yeah.  [00:43:46] Jacob: Yeah, absolutely  [00:43:48] Jason: Okay, very cool. Yeah, cool. Anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?  [00:43:54] Jacob: The only thing I want to share with all the property managers out there is keep on doing the hard work. For those who are outside the industry, they don't understand the challenge of the beat down that can be property management. So just keep it up and do the good work that it is. [00:44:07] Jason: Yeah, it can be challenging. Well, All right. Thanks for Somebody jump on I don't know who that was All right. Thanks for hanging out with us until next time everybody to you know until next time to our mutual growth if you're interested in getting connected with Jacob. How do they reach you? [00:44:24] Jacob: Just go to www. renjoy. com and just fill out a form and you'll get ahold of me.  [00:44:30] Jason: Okay. Awesome. Well then, if reach out to them and then if you are interested in growing your property management business and scaling it and getting some support in how to reach out and attract more owners to do third party management, check doorgrow. [00:44:46] com and make sure to join our free Facebook group at doorgrowclub. com. All right. Thanks, Jacob. And bye everyone. Thanks, Jason. Bye  [00:44:53] Jacob: everyone. Bye. [00:44:54] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:45:21] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.  

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Recently, Jason and Sarah hosted a few momentum coaching calls where they taught DoorGrow Mastermind members ways to grow and scale their businesses. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull go over 3 strategies property managers can use to increase their close rate. You'll Learn [01:53] Sales in a post-trust era [07:16] Objection-handling with a newer sales strategy [09:59] Proof bomb testimonials [13:55] One of the most effective selling tools Tweetables “A lot of you are trying to sell the way you learned maybe in real estate or the way that things happen in the past and you're probably finding it harder and harder as well.” “My agenda is to figure out simply, do they need what we have?” “If they can't find a consequence to not starting now, then they won't start now.” “People's trust levels are at an all-time low. And so in selling, I've had to really change things up.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you have any leads, deals, opportunities in the pipeline right now, and you would love to maybe double your close rate or double the deal count that you're getting out of your existing lead flow, I think these three elements combined would easily do that.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:31] DoorGrow Property Managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:50] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason, and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So today we're going to talk a little bit, this is going to be a quick episode. We've got camera malfunctions. I don't know. I don't know what's going on, but I had a coaching call with clients recently, just the other day. We do these momentum coaching calls with some of our clients in the mastermind to get them back in momentum. [00:01:31] Like if they've maybe been disengaged a little for a little bit, or they've been focused on other things, or they're kind of unclear on what they should be doing next, we want to get them back in the state of momentum, which is where entrepreneurs want to be. And so, on that call, I was sharing with them some of the new stuff cause some of them have been a little bit unplugged and we're always adding new, innovative ideas. [00:01:53] So one of the things that I've noticed recently is that sales, we're kind of in this post trust era. I've noticed over the last three, four years, sales has become really difficult. It's become harder to sell using older sales tactics or typical sales tactics. And so I had to change up how it was selling. [00:02:14] And I did a lot of research, a lot of study. I took an empathy course and a communication thing, like seminar thing, and just a bunch of other stuff. And the old school sales, methodology just isn't working here in this post trust sort of era, like nobody believes anything anymore. The news, you can't really trust it. [00:02:37] We all know now the news is fake, right? Voting has been fake. Food's been fake, right? A lot of the medical stuff shoved on us, fake, right? Just saw something about the conspiracy theory or scam of like C sections being pushed on people, which is like ridiculous amounts, like everything's fake. [00:02:56] And so we don't know who or what we can trust. But we trust ourselves and so what I've noticed is people's trust levels are an all time low And so in selling I've had to really change things up and transparently sales was not going really well for us for a while, right? [00:03:13] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:13] Jason: Like we had a lot of clients that stayed in our program, but closing deals was hard.  [00:03:17] Sarah: Yeah, and we didn't focus on sales. [00:03:20] Jason: Yeah, it wasn't really a focus for us. At all. We focused a lot on the product. Yeah.  [00:03:24] Sarah: For like a year and a half maybe almost two years and then by the time we needed to focus on sales, it wasn't as easy to like, just flip a switch as we thought. We were like, "okay, we're ready now. Like, let's amp up sales." And they were like, "oh, that isn't happening the way we thought." [00:03:43] Like, we just thought, you know, like, just pick it right back up where you left off.  [00:03:47] Jason: Yeah. I thought, because I hadn't been doing sales for years. Like I had sales team members, people. So then I was like I'll go back to doing sales. And and the game has changed. Like, and a lot of you are trying to sell the way you learned maybe in real estate or the way that things happen in the past and you're probably finding it harder and harder as well. [00:04:08] I would imagine. So what I've noticed is that we need to shift to a different model. So I shifted to a more question based empathetic model of selling. And I went through and coached our clients on this and they're already starting to get some different results, which is awesome. My close rate using this different methodology has gone through the roof. [00:04:32] So what I've noticed, my close rate has gone through the roof, but what I've noticed is by just being super curious and not trying to sell something. [00:04:40] And I know that sounds wild, like I'm closing way more deals by not trying to sell. I'm just being curious and I'm just being helpful and I'm asking a lot of questions. If I'm on an hour call, I'm spending like almost the entire call just asking questions and letting them talk. If I ask questions in a strategic order, what I'm noticing is that if I ask the right questions, it helps them figure out what their problem is. It helps them figure out what their sort of ideal solution is. It helps them figure out what the consequence is if they don't change this, or if they continue doing what they're doing. [00:05:14] And then at the very end, like, I'll get into the pitch a little bit. But what I'm noticing is people don't know, we assume people know what their problem is. Like somebody comes to you for property management and you're like "they're already dealing with the problem. They're aware." They might be superficially, but they're not aware of the problem. They're not aware of how they feel about the problem. They're not aware fully about what the impact of that problem is. And they're not really even aware of what they want or what the ideal solution is to some degree. They become aware of all of this stuff when you ask them, like in that moment. [00:05:47] And so when I start asking clients these questions, they start, these potential clients, they start formulating this real time. I know NLP stuff. I can see their eyes moving around the right way. I know they're now creating this in their head. They're figuring it out. And if they don't know that they have a problem or where their pain is and what they want and what paradise looks like and the ideal outcomes and if they haven't formulate all this, it's really difficult to close the deal. It's really difficult to get them to move forward towards what they want. And I've also given up focusing on trying to you know, having any sort of agenda. My agenda is to figure out simply do they need what we have? I can see this, but they need to figure this out. So I need to ask questions to help them see that they might benefit from this or that they need something. And they, if they do identify that they need something different or they need help, then the next question I need to figure out is, do they want what we have? And that's it! i'm no longer trying to pitch and spending the majority of the call telling them how awesome our program is and all the cool stuff that we have. I go through and I just ask some questions and then at the very end My pitch is like I just picked three things because there's so much in our program. It was overwhelming people.  [00:07:02] I spent the whole call like "we have this call! We do this! We have this! And we have all this content in DoorGrow Academy and Telegram messenger access and blah blah blah," and like they were just like "oh, well, I need to think about it." And if you overwhelm them with features and benefits, you're going to get that objection every time. What I'm finding is with this new methodology of selling that I've been coaching clients on there's a very few objections. [00:07:22] There's not really anything to object to because you've gotten clear on what their problem is. They've gotten clear on what the problem is that you've gotten them clear on what the, you know the positive future outcome would look like and they're clear on that now, and so that creates this pain gap in between and then you're able to create urgency and one of my big challenges is I wasn't able to create urgency because I didn't get them clear on their problem or what they wanted and what that gap felt like and if the if that was really an issue And then I didn't ask some questions to help them get clear on why does this matter now? [00:07:58] Does this why would it matter to get this going now? Why not change it? Why not keep it the same and by asking that it helps them to identify also urgency and so then adding urgency was one of the big things I was missing because everybody would go through, listen to me pitch. And they'd be like, "this sounds amazing. It sounds like it's solved my problems. It sounds really great, but I'm onboarding a new assistant right now and I'll do it later." Or "I'm dealing with this challenge right now," or "I've got this problem in my business right now," or "it's summer and things really busy," right? And so there was no urgency. [00:08:30] And so if you're running into that with clients, the lack of urgency is caused by a lack of identifying this pain gap and then a lack of helping them identify what's going on. Why does it matter to do this now? Is there any consequence? And if they can't find a consequence to not starting now, then they won't start now. [00:08:47] They may never start. And so, my close rate is ridiculously high lately. And I'm not really doing anything other than asking questions to help them figure out what they want rather than trying to push my really cool ideas like, shove it, cram it down their throat, you know, like old style sales. [00:09:06] So I don't have to deal with objections. I don't have to use manipulative things like, "do you want the red one or the blue one?" And they're like, "I didn't even say I wanted one." You know, you don't have to use any of these old school. Pushy, icky sales tactics. And so what I'm also noticing is it doesn't create sales resistance or ick, this gross feeling in them that they feel like you're like disgusting or they feel awkward. [00:09:30] And a lot of you that have problems doing sales or you have problems with salespeople or you have problems feeling comfortable being a sales person or identifying with that, it's because of that gross feeling that you get when selling, when you're being pushy or manipulative instead of helpful. So I'm actually really enjoying doing sales because to me this feels more like what I love to do, which is coaching so that's one of the things I talked about with our coaching clients. Other thing I talked about with proof. [00:10:00] Sarah: The other thing that you're gonna do right now is take a break.  [00:10:03] Jason: Oh, we're going to take a break and then I'll tell you about proof bombs. One of our sponsors for this episode is Vendoroo. We're hearing great things and getting great feedback. So if you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, check out Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability, Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today by going to vendoroo.ai. vendoroo.ai/DoorGrow and experience maintenance done right. And go to that page, you get a special little perk or benefit. So, check out Vendoroo. We're hearing great feedback. And this is part of the AI revolution right now. If you're not doing stuff like this, you're getting left behind. [00:11:00] So, we're hearing some amazing things. True Submeter. Let me tell you about True Submeter. If you are a property owner or manager, check out True Submeter, the number one water Submetering company in the U. S. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants, and hello to billing for exact water consumption. [00:11:21] With no unit minimum, enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your properties operations and save you money. Plus get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code DoorGrow10. That's DoorGrow one zero. Visit True Submeter today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. [00:11:43] That's truesubmeter. com. Okay. Proof bombs. The other cool thing I shared, it was an idea I learned from one of my mentors, which is Sharran Srivatsaa. Do you want to mention, tell them about Sharran?  [00:11:54] Sarah: Yeah. So, if you guys are in real estate there's a publicly traded real estate company. [00:12:02] Which is insane. Like it's on the stock market. Crazy. It's real. R E A L. Real. He's the CEO. Yeah. Of Real. They're A multi billion, billion with a B, yeah, multi billion dollar company. And they're growing really rapidly. They do some really cool stuff. Thanks to Sharran's leadership. Yeah. [00:12:26] Sharran's a really cool dude. His story's just so interesting. And he like, I mean, he literally came here with like 150 in his pocket and he got robbed on the street. So then he had zero dollars in his pocket and he's just so Well, wait such a cool dude. [00:12:41] Jason: I want to share this story. So he got robbed He had a certain amount of money and then he negotiated with the thief to allow him to just have enough money so he could like do a train ride or get on the train. So he negotiated with the thief, like, and he was able to  [00:12:56] Sarah: "...take all of my money." [00:12:57] Jason: Yeah. "Just leave me this much and you can have the rest." And they did that, like, he's negotiating. This just like, he's just a brilliant guy. And so he shared this idea with proof bombs and he was sharing how he had basically taught this to Alex Hormozi if you've heard of Alex Hormozi or followed his stuff, Sharran's kind of one of the mentors behind the content that Alex Hormozi shares. [00:13:20] And Alex Hormozi used this proof bomb concept in his book launch that went amazingly well. And proof bombs are basically this idea of showing a visual testimonial that you can just see without having to watch the video which uses like a photo and bullet points and some data as evidence and stuff like this. [00:13:39] So I trained my clients on how to create proof bombs, which we have in our pitch deck that I'll pull up sometimes or that we use because it helps get an idea across very quickly using images basically. And so, we shared the idea of proof bombs. And the other, the third idea I shared on these calls was I coached clients on an offer doc because the question came up, "well, what if I don't have a really effective website or I don't have a website yet? I need to wait until you guys help me with that before I can really sell effectively." And then I shared with them what's more effective, even if you have a website or what we call offer documents. If you have conversations with us, we will share one of our offer documents with you at some point, because this gives you everything you need to know or understand about our offer, our program, or what you might be interested in. So we have offer documents for just about everything in our DoorGrow all our different programs our different one day things events stuff like this we have offer documents. So I shared, I coached clients on how to build out these offer documents real effective. [00:14:44] And so those three elements alone will dramatically increase somebody's close rate, like significantly. So if you have any leads, deals, opportunities in the pipeline right now, and you would love to maybe double your close rate or double the deal count that you're getting out of your existing lead flow, these, I think these three elements combined would easily do that. [00:15:06] It'd be significant. Yeah. Very significant. My close rate is just through the roof right now. And if you want to experience some of the sales magic and not even feel like you're being sold to or sold on anything because nobody wants to be sold really, set up a call with our team and we'll help you grow. [00:15:24] We'll help you figure out if we can help you. So, that's basically what I've been up to lately. Is there anything else we should share?  [00:15:30] Sarah: I don't know if I told you this. On the scale call on Friday, Portia actually mentioned that they created offer docs and she's like, "these work so well." She's like, "these are so cool." [00:15:39] She's like, "this is such an awesome tool." So, you're not, you don't run that call, I run that call. So, I wanted to... yeah.  [00:15:47] We've got clients, super excited.  [00:15:49] Jason: We've got clients creating offer documents, proof bombs, and and using that new sales model and they're seeing results. So, just some of the latest stuff just to kind of open up the I don't know, the curtain a little bit and let you know what are some of the things that we're helping people at DoorGrow accomplish and do. Always innovating, always learning and getting new ideas. So that's the advantage of having coaches and mentors, which we have, and we recommend you have. So if you're interested in getting coach, it doesn't have to be us. Go get one. [00:16:23] If you are interested in it being us, then you can check us out at DoorGrow. com. And until next time, to our mutual growth.  [00:16:31] Sarah: Oh, and check out our Facebook group.  [00:16:33] Jason: DoorGrow club. com Join our free facebook community. And that's it until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone [00:16:41] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:17:08] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

There was a recent event where the stock market plunged. Some are speculating about an impending recession. We're seeing the real estate market downturn in real time…  In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the impact the current real estate market and economic downturn will have on property management businesses. You'll Learn [02:10] The current state of the economy [10:00] The real estate market and leasing challenges [21:07] Having empathy in property management [25:03] Real estate investing in a recession Tweetables “In every single recession, new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen.” “Those that have built that ark so to speak, like Noah did, are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just going to float through it instead of drown.” “We always have to remember that property management is a relationship business.” “One of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you want to be in doom and gloom and "the sky's falling and I'm never going to make any money" then you're absolutely right. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made.    [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:22] Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:27] Sarah: That was good multitasking there.  [00:01:29] Jason: You saw that? See.  [00:01:30] Sarah: I saw that. That was one time of you multitasking. So you are capable of it.  [00:01:35] Jason: That was hard, but I had that part of the intro memorized. I was putting my phone on do not disturb as I was reading and she decided to call it out. It's hard, right guys? It's hard for us to multitask. Women have us beat in this area.  [00:01:49] Sarah: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we dominate you here.  [00:01:52] Jason: Yeah, your brains are just wired differently, but we have that singular focus advantage. We can just cut everything else out and focus on one thing at a time. [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, speaking of focusing on one thing at a time, let's get into the show.  [00:02:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:02:07] Sarah: So we were going to talk about some doom and gloom today.  [00:02:10] Jason: Yeah. So we just saw the stock market tank, like a thousand points, right. Pretty wild. And friend of mine who runs a company, Jeremy Pound, he had mentioned, I saw his post online. [00:02:23] Shout out to Jeremy. He said, "now's the time to reach out to your real estate investor clients and say, 'Hey, look, your property didn't go down by a thousand points and never will,'" you know, something like that. So I thought that was clever. But yeah, real estate, probably a better investment right now than long term but a lot of investors are still in general freaking out. There's a recession that seems to be looming and coming or is already here depending on who you listen to. And so yeah, the sky is falling and chicken little's been shouting which is the news media and like everything bad is coming and so is this going to be how's this going to impact property management? [00:02:59] Might be a good question to start with.  [00:03:01] Sarah: Yeah, I think one of the things that we're already seeing is we have been seeing in many markets at least a decline in prices if you are trying to purchase a property right now. And we are no longer, no matter what market you're in, because some markets have still held pretty steady, no matter what market you're in, we're no longer in the days in which you list the property on a Monday, you get multiple offers and it's accepted for well over the list price the same day. [00:03:40] We're not in that situation any longer. So how does that affect property management? Well, on the real estate side, investors right now should be, if they're not, but they should be looking. Because things are on sale right now.  [00:04:00] Jason: Steals.  [00:04:01] Sarah: So as you think about what is your favorite store of all time? [00:04:06] Let's ask you, what's your favorite store ever?  [00:04:10] Jason: Amazon. Amazon. Okay, cool. I spend a lot of money there.  [00:04:12] Sarah: That's great. That's actually, you know, I wouldn't have thought of that. Because I don't, for my brain doesn't equate it to a store, but I guess it is.  [00:04:18] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:19] Sarah: I love it. I love Amazon. Okay, cool. Amazon. So if Amazon had a sale where everything was 30 percent off, would you probably buy some stuff? [00:04:29] Jason: Oh yeah, I'd buy a ton of stuff.  [00:04:31] Sarah: What if it was 55 percent off? 60. Oh. 70.  [00:04:36] Jason: No brainer. I would stock up on so much stuff.  [00:04:39] Sarah: You'd be like, "I don't even need this, but what if I do?"  [00:04:41] Jason: A million supplements. I would like.  [00:04:43] Sarah: Right.  [00:04:44] Jason: I'd be healthy set for the next year.  [00:04:46] Sarah: You'd be buying everything. So investors, this is your call. [00:04:48] Hello, real estate is on sale right now. So the savvy investors, they already know this. They're super excited right now. The savvy investors are not freaking out. The savvy investors. They know. This is where millions of dollars can be made and in fact in every single recession new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen. [00:05:18] So people who are like the accidental investors and they've got that property they've been hanging on to and they're just waiting until the market gets hot enough and then they'll probably sell it. But in the meantime, I guess I'll hang on to it and rent it out. They're going to freak out right now. [00:05:36] They're going, "Oh my God, what if rents dip even more? What if vacancy rates are longer? So I can't fill a property or my property manager can't fill a property in a week like they used to be able to?" It was just churn them out and hurry up, get another one in there, find a warm body, put them in. They're like coming in droves. [00:05:54] That's not the situation anymore. And they will freak out. But the investors that understand the situation that we're in and the market at where it stands. Oh man, they are excited. Yeah, I'm excited right now. I'm like great tank, baby. Let's go . [00:06:12] Jason: So the big news out there like right now is Warren Buffett decided to sell off a ton of stock like half of his stake in Apple like some major things and he doesn't make very many moves, right? [00:06:24] He's like this minimalist in making Purchases or selling he's like he's the he's got the diamond hands, right? And He's now sitting on a cash stock pile 277 billion  [00:06:39] Sarah: billion with a b  [00:06:40] Jason: he's just hanging out with cash He's waiting for the bottom to hit because he knows he must know that things are going to get worse.  [00:06:47] Sarah: Because he's gonna go shopping. [00:06:50] Jason: Yeah, he's gonna he's definitely waiting to go shopping is my guess And so there's going to be some deals to be had And that may mean the real estate market could be getting worse. Could be getting a lot worse, perhaps. So, and if that's the case, then savvy investors right now should be stacking cash, right? [00:07:09] Property managers, you should be stacking cash because you should be a savvy investor. And looking for these deals. Now we've been through a recession before here at DoorGrow. Historically, what I've seen happen whenever there's a recession, the real estate market kind of dries up. Things get tough for real estate agents. [00:07:26] So a lot of real estate agents get squeezed out. So they find other jobs. And there's quite a few of them that think, "well, why don't I do property management?" And a lot of you listening, maybe during the last recession, that's what you did. You started a property management business. Maybe that's why you're now listening to this podcast and you have a property management business that you've probably, hopefully grown by since the last recession to at least 200 units or something, but maybe you haven't put enough focus on it. [00:07:53] Who knows. Those that have built that ark so to speak like Noah did are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just gonna float through it instead of drown. And you're going to see a lot of people scrambling to start property management businesses. That being said if you are a real estate agent, you're struggling you're like, "you know what? I don't really like the hunt and the chase of real estate buying and selling I would be really interested in property management," check out our foundations program. It's pretty great And it's super affordable. Hit us up, learn about DoorGrow Foundations. It's going to help you avoid thousands of dollars in costly mistakes and stupidity in getting started.  [00:08:33] Sarah: Since we're talking about avoiding costly mistakes, it would be a great time to talk about our sponsor.  [00:08:39] Jason: Cool. So, let's talk about Vendoroo. All right. Awesome new tech. Are you tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination? Meet Vendoroo, your AI driven, in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details. So you can focus on growth schedule demo today at Vendoroo that's a vendor, V E N D O R O O like a kangaroo, get it? Dot AI. vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. We've got some clients getting great results with that. [00:09:33] Yeah. So check that out. We're in an AI revolution right now.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Get in.  [00:09:38] Jason: We're hearing great things from our clients about this so far. I mean, it's been programmed for the last 12 years and has over half a million work orders already in it and never forgets any detail you tell it about the property and is intelligent. [00:09:53] And they put a human layer between that. So it's really cool. All right. Yeah. Back to the topic at hand.  [00:10:00] Sarah: Let's also talk about how things look right now in the property management world because you're like, "yeah, Sarah, things are on sale right now. Cool. But, man, it's just tough being a property manager right now. It's harder than it normally is." And a lot of times what we're seeing is again in certain markets right now is well rents are lower and that means property managers typically make less especially on that percentage part that you're charging so if the rent is 5, 000 versus if the rent is 1, 000, simple math will tell you, yes, you'll make less when the rents dip. [00:10:40] The other part of that is occupancy. So just like we used to be, what, two years ago, three years ago, we used to be able to list a property for sale and we would have multiple offers very quickly and it was no problem getting it sold. And the rental market has shifted a little bit as well. So we used to go, "Oh, we have a vacant property. Well, let's market it. And then we're going to have multiple applications and we'll get it filled really quick. It could be in a day. It could be in a week, but we know it's going to happen and we're not really worried." And now we're seeing that cycle take a little bit longer. So the rents are lower and the renting cycle of getting the applications and finding someone who's qualified, that is taking a little longer, so now it might take a few weeks. And if things are really bad, that might take a few months.  [00:11:38] Jason: So in some markets, vacancies are up right now, rents are lower, the rent cycle's taking longer, so leasing in general can be a bit more of a challenge. [00:11:47] And to be fair, a lot of property managers in the longterm rental management game, I've had it pretty easy, right? When you look at like multifamily stuff like this, 2020,  [00:11:58] Sarah: 2021, like none of y'all were complaining then, right? Super easy then.  [00:12:03] Jason: When you look at the multifamily industry, like getting tenants in place has always been a challenge in a lot of these multi family places And so they focus on this. [00:12:12] They're more aggressive. They put a lot more attention on this and so It may mean that you're going to need to put some greater attention on the leasing side of things to be a bit more competitive and a bit more aggressive to get these properties seen to get these properties like showed, to get these properties rented out. [00:12:33] So what are some things that they can do to kind of deal with this challenge with leasing right now?  [00:12:37] Sarah: Well, number one, I think the most important thing that you can do here is you may need to look at changing your processes depending on what they are in the leasing process, specifically regarding showings, right? [00:12:52] So if you're like, "well, we do two showings a week." This is how I used to do things. "I do two showings a week and one is at this day, this time. The other one is at this day, this time. This is when you can come and look at the property." Well, if we consistently aren't having anyone show up and then now all of a sudden we have someone who's interested and they can't make any of those showings, you may need to change your processes, right? So now we might need to look at "how can I offer more flexibility for someone who is qualified and interested? How can I offer more flexibility?" And that doesn't mean, "oh, I'm just going to be on call 24 hours a day as a leasing agent, and I'm just going to jump when somebody says, 'hey, I want to look at this property.'" [00:13:34] That is not what you're going to do. So, can we do self showings? Can we use electronic lock boxes? Can we have a team member just go to the property, unlock the door, stand and wait, and then lock it up? Because that's what I used to do, right? "Well, they have to be licensed." No one has to be licensed to unlock a door. [00:13:56] Unlock the door, stand there and wait, and lock up when they're gone. That does not require a license, right? So how can we offer more flexibility so that people who are interested are now able to go see the property when it's convenient for them? Because they might work 9 to 5. So 5:30 might be impossible because at 5:30 I'm stuck in traffic. Right. So I might need a 7 o'clock showing or a 7:30 showing, or I might need to do something on the weekend. But on the weekend, you know, I have all my kids stuff and soccer camp and all this stuff. So like finding those little spots that do work for them. "Well, great. What day and time would be good for you because I can see if I can fit you in" and, or if you have the electronic lock boxes that opens a whole host of availability. I think they shut off at a certain time. So you can't go at like midnight. Right? But, then you have a whole bunch of available slots. And they get to choose what's convenient.  [00:14:57] Jason: So, maybe even a step earlier, which I love the idea, like, you can start to be more flexible. [00:15:04] And maybe that could be helpful is just to get more eyeballs on properties maybe optimizing the listings and so there's several ways to optimize listings and a lot of property managers probably been a little bit lazy about this. Some companies put a lot of detail on this but this is a competitive advantage if you have better photos. We've had companies on like box brownie and others where they will improve or edit the photos there's so many ai tools now as well for photos and so if you can get your photos optimized and improved without lying without like, "Hey, look, the carpet and the walls are all perfect." And AI made it that way. And it looks like garbage, right? That is not going to like bode well for you. But yeah, if you are getting better photography, Improving and optimizing the listings, making sure the descriptions are really clear, adding video tours to these. One of the big things I would look at I loved seeing on any listings when we were looking to buy a rental property to rent out or anything. I love seeing the floor plans  [00:16:05] Sarah: That's so easy. [00:16:06] Jason: Just I love seeing the floor plans like then I could go "oh, this is how it all fits together. This is how it works," you know and all these photos that are taken from the corner with a wide angle lens and make everything look giant. That stuff's probably not serving you. It's not showcasing reality And so I think there's going to be a greater push with ai and fake humans and all this stuff, there's going to be a greater desire for humans to get reality. Everything's been fake news, fake everything, fake voting, fake food, right? Everybody's waking up to this So we need to stop trying to make everything look better than it is. We need to start showcasing reality. And so it might mean photos instead of wide angle from the corner, maybe more like we've done with our airbnb taking photos straight on. [00:16:52] Sarah: I think with Airbnb, that works really well. The types of photos I've put on our Airbnb, I would not.  [00:16:58] Jason: You wouldn't do on real estate?  [00:17:00] Sarah: What I would do though is I don't want to use the wide angle lens. That's going to make a little tiny closet look triple its size.  [00:17:08] Jason: Sure.  [00:17:08] Sarah: So that I think is something. [00:17:10] But still maybe from the corners. Yeah. And I would because when you're trying to either sell or rent a home, you are looking like, "Hey, imagine your family in here. Look how big the space is. Look how great it is. It's beautiful. Lots of light." But don't advertise there's lots of light if there's not lots of light, right? [00:17:27] So be realistic in it, but still do things to make it look attractive. That being said, a step even before the listing is really do some research in the market. What's available? "So, okay, this property, I can rent it out. I know what it looks like because I'm familiar with it, but this property is competing against other properties. What do the other properties in my market look like?" If all of the other properties have a swimming pool and you're the one without a swimming pool, you may have a problem, right? So if all of the other properties, they have certain amenities. You may need to look to see, "Hey, is it possible for us to also get these amenities?" [00:18:10] Right? So you might need to look at doing some updates to flooring, kitchens, bathrooms, and it may or may not be something that investors are able to invest in right now. But the important thing is, "Hey, this is in fact, an investment."  [00:18:29] Jason: Sure.  [00:18:29] Sarah: So right now, what we might need to do in order to be more attractive and in order to get those higher rents and in order to find a qualified tenant sooner, we might need to put some work into the property to make it look more attractive. [00:18:42] Now, right now that might seem really painful. However, it is an investment, which will give you an ROI on the property because even though rents are low right now, everything moves in cycles in real estate and the stock market. So we're at a low right now, but we're not going to stay there because if you recall, just two short years ago, it was booming. [00:19:08] So see how quickly things can change? So that means that in even two years from now, this can very easily be something that "Hey, rents have bounced back." And now this calls for a higher rent.  [00:19:24] Jason: So price is also going to be a factor right? And being able to get and convince your owners that "hey, we're going to need to drop the price. It's not just about cashflow in having a rental property." We've talked about our ROI calculator on previous episodes that have been helping clients close deals But being able to showcase the life the investment long term of the property, even if it's not cash flowing right now, it's still a good investment to keep can be effective and just getting the price low enough sometimes is what it takes to get at least out like that's always going to be a significant factor.  [00:20:01] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:20:01] Jason: Related to that, our next sponsor is True Submeter. So with True Submeter, what's interesting about this is you have multi family properties and you're trying to fold the utilities into the rent and your rent looks higher on listings than other places where they're not including the utilities, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. [00:20:21] Here's a way to solve this. Attention, multifamily property owners and managers. Discover True Submeter, the number one water submetering company in the U. S. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants and hello to billing for exact water consumption with no unit minimum. Enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your property's operations and save you money. Plus, get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code DOORGROW10. That's DoorGrow one zero. Visit truesubmeter.Com today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. That's truesubmeter.com [00:20:57] Another way, maybe to get the rent down, at least on the surface and the utility separate. All right. So, I think another factor in solving the leasing challenge... I've been studying sales a lot lately and one of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy. [00:21:25] And so there are a lot of tenants that they will pick you, or pick getting a property from your business because you showed care, you showed empathy. You weren't an asshole. You weren't rude to them. You didn't make them feel unimportant or like a number and so just showing a little bit of care and showing a little bit of empathy is often the determining factor why somebody picks something over anything else. "Well, I got along better with them," or "they were nicer to me," or "they seemed like they actually cared and I could imagine them as a landlord" or "they answered their phone."  [00:21:58] Sarah: "They answered the phone when I called them, that was helpful." [00:22:01] Jason: And so adding in empathy or making sure that the people that are having, like working on the leasing and you know, showing the property and communicating with the tenants are team members that are feelers and are empathetic and show care would probably be a little bit more effective in getting placement would be my guess. [00:22:22] Sarah: One of our clients, I think he's outside of the Chicago area, Ed Kirch. He was saying in his area, there's like two, 300. New apartment buildings like being built and they're like large multifamily like apartment complex buildings. And then of course, they're not going to work with like a small mom and pop. [00:22:40] They're like, they're corporate owned. It's a big corporation that manages it.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, they'll be brand new.  [00:22:47] Sarah: They're nice. They're pretty. And he said, "and sometimes the rents are either the same or even less than the units that we're managing." And he's like, "man, it's really hard to compete with that." And I said, "well, is it though?" [00:23:04] Because yes, there are always going to be the people who just want the bargain. They're like, "well, if this thing is $100 and this thing is $110, I'm going to go with this cheaper thing. Even if the $110 thing gets me better service, I don't care. I'm just all about the money." So if you're attracting those cheapo tenants, good luck managing those. [00:23:27] Have fun. Have fun with that. But if you're looking to attract great tenants, price is one factor, but it's not the only factor. So again, it's the relationship. And we always have to remember that property management is a relationship business because we have a relationship with the client and we have a relationship with the tenant. [00:23:51] So if one or both of those fails, it's going to be really hard for us then. So just by building that relationship and you do not need to be friends with them. You don't need to take them out for pizza and beer but just by being available to communicate with. Now again, don't go too far with this. [00:24:13] This does not mean you're at someone's beck and call 24 hours a day. "Oh, i'm going to be glued to my phone and as soon as somebody calls i'm going to answer right away." No, but it does mean that you are available. You are responsive. It's not a hundred percent of the time. Sometimes you might need to call someone back, but it's can they get in touch with you? And do they feel like 'I'm talking to a person who actually cares about me and my situation, or do I feel like I'm talking...' we've all had these conversations where you can just tell they're like, "hurry up. Come on, just sign the stupid application so I can be done with you and move on to the next thing that I'm doing. I don't really care at all, but I just want to make the money. So like, would you hurry it up here, sweetheart?" Right? So there's a big difference on how you're communicating with people as well. [00:25:03] Jason: Got it. So is there anything that you think will be shifting related to recession related to the owners? Like maybe money gets tighter for them. Inflation is going up. They're having a more difficult time paying for some of the repairs on the properties. Maybe it would make sense for some of the property managers now to be communicating with the owners, like, "Hey, set aside cash. Things are getting more expensive. Make sure you have the funds in order to take care of things related to this rental property, to weather this, you know. What do you think?  [00:25:31] Sarah: Yeah. I think that's fair for sure. I also think that, I mean, for me, that's always something that I do because I've been in situations where we needed a cash call and we had no cash available, so now we're really in hot water. So I do that anyway, but I think right now, especially just having those conversations like, "Hey, and just so you know, like this too shall pass. So you might not be in the best situation right now. Maybe cash flow is not happening. Maybe we're cash flow negative. But this too shall pass, right?" [00:26:06] So it, again, it comes in waves. It comes in cycles. And I think that's even more important at this point to discuss why investing on cash flow alone is just not a great strategy because if you buy a cash flowing property right now that can change in a year or two years or five years, right? [00:26:31] And vice versa. So right now you might buy it and it's not going to cash flow at all, but in two years or five years or eight years, then all of a sudden, "wow, we have a lot of cash flow happening." So everything comes in cycles, but it's important to understand cashflow is just one piece of the pie. It's not the entire pie. [00:26:48] Jason: Right. Like even great stocks will lose money in the short term.  [00:26:52] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And real estate is a long term game. It's not, "I'm going to buy it today and sell it tomorrow and bank a million dollars." [00:27:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:01] Sarah: Can you do that in certain situations? Absolutely. But is that going to be the normal experience that people have? No.  [00:27:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:27:10] Sarah: So I think yes, talking with your owners about the other pieces of the pie or pieces of the equation. "Well, let's look at the tax benefits that you get," right? Because a lot of times people don't even understand really what it means to be able to take your losses, losses on paper, from real estate to apply them to your active W 2 income. [00:27:38] So you can pay less in taxes just by owning a real estate, a piece of real estate. That's amazing, right? You're getting the depreciation. You're getting appreciation because even if it's not appreciating currently, it will over time appreciate. Every property over time appreciates. [00:27:55] It's just a general rule of thumb. So it might take a couple years to get the appreciation, but you will get it. And now you're building up equity in an asset that you can tap into later. And if your tenants are paying some or all of your mortgage for you, that's amazing. Where else can you get something where you're going to take out a loan on something, but somebody else is going to pay that loan for you? [00:28:21] Even if it's not all of it. Even if your mortgage is 2, 400 a month and you're like, well, the 1022, but then I have some other expenses on top of it. That's great. They're still paying a large chunk of your mortgage for you. And again, things change. So right now that might be your situation and you might not cashflow and that can change very quickly in the future. [00:28:43] Because again, back in 2020, 2021, people were cashflow and really great, especially if they had bought. If you buy in a dip and then things spike, you're sitting pretty.  [00:28:55] Jason: So maybe to sum it up with your existing owners, now is the time to help them build their ark right before the storm hits. With the intention for yourself to protect your portfolio, to protect your rent roll and to make sure that you keep that up and as healthy as possible. And You know, and look into, you know, there may be investors you have in your portfolio clients that you have that they're sitting on a bunch of cash. They're waiting for the deals to happen. And then you have investors that they're like kind of struggling. They're already like kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back might like float down and land on their back like any moment now. And so there may be opportunities to keep the properties in your portfolio, but move them over. [00:29:39] I've been hanging out a bit with the the founder of a blanket, which is a cool platform. Maybe we'll have them on the podcast here shortly, but there's different methods to keep your portfolio, even if the owners are changing. So you keep the properties. And so that's some things to be strategically thinking about as well. [00:29:58] So, well, I think we've covered several things. Is there anything else to prepare people listening for the doom and gloom, get them maybe focused on the positive.  [00:30:08] Sarah: Just in the height of the market, one of the strategies I used was tapping into my current investors. Is, "are you looking to pick up more properties?" Can I partner, you know, two or three investors together so that they're able to get more properties? And anyone who's looking to get out, can I shift that to someone else in my portfolio? And to get referrals. Like, "Hey, this is going well for you. Do you know anybody else that might be interested in doing this or might want to purchase a investment property or have already an investment property?" [00:30:42] So, and that, in the height of the market, that worked really well for me. So right now they would work even better. It would work even better. So even if you're like, "well, I only have like 20 clients and that's it." Plenty. That is plenty. You have an untapped gold mine. So if you want to be in doom and gloom and the sky's falling and "I'm never going to make any money and rent rolls are down and vacancies are longer and my investors aren't interested and people are losing money and I'm going to make less and oh, this sucks..." [00:31:18] Then you're absolutely right. That is the situation that you're going to create for yourself. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made. So you can choose what you do with this weird time that we're in right now. [00:31:38] I know what I'm going to do.  [00:31:40] Jason: You know, during the Great Depression, some of the greatest companies were made. It was the companies that decided to double down on their marketing efforts doubled down on their growth experts and not put their head in the sand and freak out that the world and the sky is falling and so choose your frame I think sums up what Sarah's saying. [00:31:59] I think it's great mindset. Choose your frame. Either you're going to believe in the opportunity and see all the positives. Why is this positive? Figure that out or you're going to view this as a threat, be scared, kind of tighten up, And you're going to watch some people make a lot of money and pass you by and stack a lot of doors. [00:32:19] There's going to be a lot of opportunity for growing a property management business. I think a lot. So, and if you want to capitalize on that, reach out to us at DoorGrow. And I think that's that's it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth, everyone. And if you are interested in connecting with us, you can reach us at DoorGrow. com or check out our free online facebook group community at DoorGrow club. com. And we'll give you some free gifts for joining. And hopefully you'll get on a call and chat with us and we can figure out if we can help you grow and scale your business significantly. So until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

If you are existing in your property management business but you aren't enjoying it, you might be in property management hell. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explain how to escape property management hell. You'll Learn [01:19] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [05:40] How to escape property management hell [07:33] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [10:32] What does an operator do in a property management business? Tweetables “So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating… then you might be in property management hell.” “There's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this.” “We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you move forward.” “You can still be miserable and have an entire team.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: You will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:00:05] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. [00:00:09]  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, and unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] Welcome everybody. So we were thinking about what to talk about today, and one of the things that I coached clients on this week in depth was this idea of how to escape property management hell. So let's talk about how to escape property management hell. So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating, you've got an entire team and you're wondering 'why won't they just think for themselves?' And you're stressed out and you're tired of dealing with all the escalated situations where your team couldn't handle it like tenants and owners, and you're still wearing a whole bunch of hats that you don't enjoy wearing, you're still doing a lot of stuff in the business that you really don't wake up in the morning and go, "man, I'm excited to do that thing today," then you might be in property management hell. This is not property management heaven. This is not the place you're supposed to stay. And so if you're not enjoying that we're going to talk about how to get out of that. And it's not that complicated of a process. We're not going to go into a ton of detail cause we don't have a ton of time. [00:02:20] Not as in depth as we would in coaching our clients, but we're going to give you the high level overview so you can understand that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. All right. So what do you notice with clients that they're doing and what's going on when they are in hell? What sort of frustrations and challenges are you hearing? [00:02:40] Sarah: Overwhelmed. They're overworked. They're crazy busy. Most of it is just busy work. [00:02:46] It needs to be done, but it's not high level things that a business owner would need to do. They're working lots and lots of hours. Sometimes it might be eight, 10, 12, 15 hours a day. Sometimes it's seven days a week. Usually it's at least six and then they do a little bit on the seventh day, but they don't really fully get time off and they're just responding to everything as it comes in and they're trying to handle everything and they're frustrated and they're just very stressed out.  [00:03:23] Jason: Yeah, I was talking with a past client who may end up, probably end up joining our mastermind program. I think we'd worked together four or five years ago, helped him with his website and some different stuff. And he's been using some of the stuff he learned and he was really excited to tell me how far he's come and he's like at 700 units and I think he was small when he came to me, I don't remember, maybe 50 or something, and so he's really excited about the progress he has. [00:03:50] Then he was telling me he's working 17 hour days, some days, like he's working these crazy hours and he's going through these cycles of growth and like working crazy hard and then stopping the growth so that he can focus on building up the business and operations and doing a lot of the onboarding of the properties and then he goes back into this cycle and he hasn't taken a legit vacation since he started the business. [00:04:17] And he goes on vacations, but he's on his phone the whole time. He's not totally available. And this is not a sustainable thing. Now he's just done it through sheer drive and will. To his credit, he's like, "nobody will outwork me." This is like a badge of honor for him. And he works incredibly hard and he's like, that's why he's had more success than any of his competitors is he's just willing to outwork all of them. [00:04:43] And there's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this. And if all of you or any of you are being lazy, work a little harder. Like do some hard work for a little while to get to that next level. But we want more fulfillment and more freedom. And I wasn't getting a sense from this gentleman that he was experiencing fulfillment and freedom. [00:05:03] To me, that sounds like hell. It's like a treadmill that you feel like you've created and you have to keep running on to keep the business going. And he's going to burn out. And you know, he even mentioned like it's affecting his health, it's affecting his body, you know, and it's probably impacting his relationships, you know? [00:05:21] And so a lot of guys get into this stage and I think women do it as well. Everybody does this in business where they get into this mode of growth and work and hustle. And that's how we get businesses going. We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you moving forward. [00:05:38] You have to start to get out of the way. And so the way to escape this property management hell, this cycle of endless work and torment is we need to figure out what help do we need in the business? A lot of people go, "well, just offload stuff." Yeah, but how do you know what you actually should offload? [00:05:58] Because the big mistake people make is they go hire what they think the business needs and they keep helping the business. And this gentleman and many others I've talked to have an entire team and they're still stressing themselves out. You can still be miserable and have an entire team. Some of you listening are like, "yeah that's me. I've got an entire team and I'm miserable," right? So, how do we escape that? Here's how we figure out what you need. Because if we instead shift it to figuring out what you need, then this will be a game changer. So, the first thing we do is, we have our clients do a time study.  [00:06:30] We have a sponsor and our sponsor is Venderoo, which we're getting some great feedback on from clients. Tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination. Meet Venderoo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, VENDOROO dot ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. And I'll just add one of our clients had 80 work orders in his first day of turning Vendoroo, the AI thing on, he had 80 work orders closed out. Another client had 54 work orders closed out in their first day as well. [00:07:29] Like we're in this AI revolution. So I highly recommend you check these guys out. It's very cool.  [00:07:33] Okay, so back to what I was saying is here's the strategy. You do a time study. This time study will help you figure out what you're doing every 15 minutes and you're going to categorize your time based on whether it's tactical or strategic and you're going to figure out which things are your plus signs or your minus signs. [00:07:50] We have a whole process for this and a training on how to do this and you want to do this once a quarter. This will move the business forward more than most anything else that you could do. And it'll help you get out of the way. You do the time study, figure out plus and minus signs. Then you create a job description. [00:08:04] We call those R docs because each section starts with an R, ultimate Rdoc job description for yourself and your team members creates a ton of clarity. And so you get these Rdocs created, you create one for yourself, and then you highlight the things that you no longer want to be doing, or that are your tactical minus signs that are the things you're working in the business instead of on the business, which is strategic. And so then you take that and build out a new Rdoc for your ideal candidate and hire. And this needs to be a single personality type, not like, "Oh, I need somebody to do some sales stuff and some accounting stuff and some operations stuff." [00:08:41] No, those are weird people called entrepreneurs. Don't do that. Pick one realistic human being that's not entrepreneurial like a specialist. So that might be a really good executive assistant. And then you'll have a really good job description, move all the things on that job description that would be for that person. [00:08:58] And then you put that out to the marketplace. Now, if you want to do this correctly, DoorGrow hiring is the game changer. This is where you stop playing Russian roulette and you attract the right personality type for the role. So they will actually be good at it and the right cultural fit so that you will actually trust them. [00:09:15] It's not just about finding somebody willing to do the work or that has the skill, but you also need to find somebody that's intelligent enough to be able to learn and adapt to you and to be able to do this. And then if you start building your team this way, you will have a team built around the right person would because you're adjusting yourself every quarter, you're improving yourself every quarter, you're moving closer and closer to your plus signs and more of what energizes you, and then you're going to do this with all of your team members. You're going to have them do time studies and identify their strengths and what they enjoy doing, and your team will get better and better. And you will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:09:51] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. This is going to make you have a business that you actually enjoy being in that you're less and less involved in over time and that you're the only pieces you're still holding on to are the pieces you love. And so this is a business that is built to sell if you do want to exit because you're systematically exiting from the right pieces of the business. [00:10:15] And there's the right accountability. And then you need to get a really good operating system like DoorGrow OS, where you have a good planning system and you need to get a good operator to run this system and to run the business. And that will legitimately change your life. Having Sarah as an operator, changes my life. [00:10:31] Anything you'll add to this?  [00:10:32] Sarah: I think aside from the fact that people don't know what an operator is because everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I'm going to hire somebody for operations. And these are all the things they're going to do." They are not handling tactical work. [00:10:42] Your operator is not talking with tenants. Your operator is not talking with your clients. They are not involved in maintenance, rent collection, evictions, owner statements. They don't do any of those things. That is all front end, front line work. And your operator, no one will even know who your operator is because they don't talk to anybody in the business except for you and your team. [00:11:03] They're all back end. So they're very strategically involved in the business, which is very different. So they are responsible for the inner workings of your business and how things are progressing and moving forward. And are you guys running your strategic planning meetings? Are we on track for our weekly goals and our monthly goals, our quarterly goals, and most importantly, our big annual goal? Are we doing daily huddles? Are we attracting the right team members? Do we have the right team members? Do we have the right people in the right seats and the right roles in the business? If not, we need to make some adjustments. Do we have Rdocs and job descriptions for every single person? [00:11:47] Are they up to date? Are our processes documented? Are they up to date and are they actually being used? Or do we just have this library of processes that nobody ever looks at? And then we spent hours and hours wasting time because now nobody ever uses them or looks at them. Right? So hiring, firing, strategic planning, daily huddles, your team check ins... how are things going with your team? [00:12:11] If you don't know, and you're not regularly having these meetings, then you are missing out. Because your team will know things that you don't know, as soon as you get out of that role, and have somebody else fully in it. They're now going to know things that you don't know. So you have to rely on communication with your team to understand, "hey, is there some sort of cog that we don't know about now because I don't handle leasing anymore? But is there a big problem with leasing that we can probably shore up somewhere?" So, these are the things that your operator does. The operator and the CEO, they go together very well. They're like yin and yang. [00:12:51] One will balance the other out, but they work hand in hand, and your operator does all of the things back end in the business to make sure that the business is growing and running well, and that you have the right team. So, your operator, just so you know, has absolutely nothing to do with front end work. [00:13:09] They just kind of look over the people who do.  [00:13:12] Jason: They're not your property manager. They're not your maintenance coordinator. They're not your accountant.  [00:13:17] Sarah: No.  [00:13:18] Jason: They're not a lot of things. They're not your executive assistant. [00:13:21] Sarah: They don't do move ins. They don't do move outs. They don't talk to tenants ever. And they don't talk to clients.  [00:13:28] Jason: No. They will run your business and they will change your life, right? And this will free you up to be more of a visionary entrepreneur in your business, which is what the business needs. It needs somebody leading not working. Cool. Preach! Preach, Sarah. I'm like I'm going to let her cook. [00:13:44] She's going! [00:13:45] Sarah: I hear it because I hear it all the time, "Oh, I need an operator. Great. What are the things they're going to do?" [00:13:50] "Oh, they're going to handle my admin work. They're going to do my leasing." Not an operator. Right. Great, fantastic, that's the role that you need. [00:13:57] It's not an operator.  [00:13:58] Jason: Operator is not a worker. They're like, "I need a worker. I need a worker to do work." There's a little confusion there. Okay, cool. So, in short, operator is going to help with people, planning, and process in the business. We call those three systems that are key part of the super system. [00:14:15] So if this is of interest to any of you listening and you would like to get things flowing and working really well in your business and find these game changing people to build out your team so that you've got the right people to help you grow it, the right people to help you scale it, the right people to help you run it, then reach out to DoorGrow. [00:14:33] We would love to coach and support you and help you get your business to the next level. And that's it for today.  [00:14:40] Sarah: Oh, and if you're not yet in our facebook group, you should check that out!  [00:14:44] Jason: Oh, yeah DoorGrowclub.Com. Join our facebook group. All right until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:14:52] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:15:18] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

When hiring a new team member in your property management business, one common mistake can cause you to lose out on potentially the best candidates. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss why having experience in property management is not a necessary qualification for the people you hire. You'll Learn [01:11] The Myth of Needing Experience [04:19] More Important Than Experience: Culture Fit [13:59] You Need a Better Hiring System [19:17] What to do if You Struggle with Hiring Tweetables “If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that?” “If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming, either way, you're overpaying.” “Even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training.” “If people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying.  [00:00:06] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:45] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:06] Now let's get Into the show.  [00:01:08] All right. What are we talking about today, Sarah?  [00:01:11] Sarah: I wanted to talk about this thing that keeps coming up and I've seen it two times in the last week is hiring on experience.  [00:01:21] Jason: Oh. [00:01:22] Sarah: Everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I would love somebody who's experienced and they already know the industry and they already know my systems and they know how to do things. And that would be fantastic." [00:01:32] Jason: People listening are going to go, "well, yeah, of course you want people with experience. It would be dumb to have people with zero experience, right?"  [00:01:38] Sarah: Wrong!  [00:01:39] Jason: Okay. Okay. So let's explain this. What are you talking about? [00:01:43] Sarah: All right, so the first thing that I'm going to say, as soon as I say it, it'll click right? If we are lucky to hire someone who's already familiar with the industry, who's working in the industry. Maybe they understand some of your tools, your software, perhaps some of your processes. You're narrowing your candidate pool to such a tiny little minutiae of a candidate pool. How many people do you think there are that have experience in property management that are now in the job market?. Right? Like, "Oh, I'm only going to hire somebody if they have experience in property management, or I'm only going to hire somebody if they understand how to use Appfolio." All right. So we went from here to here, tiny little segment of the market. [00:02:33] The other thing I'll say about this is if you find someone who has experience in the property management industry, and perhaps even in your software and your processes. Why is it that they're looking for a job? If they were so great, would someone not have snatched them up already?  [00:02:49] Jason: What if they get them to come from another company? [00:02:52] Like they convinced them? [00:02:53] Sarah: Let's talk about that. I'm glad you brought that up. I'm so glad. It was like this morning, we were having a conversation and I had mentioned this to one of our clients who's currently trying to hire people based off of experience. So here's the other problem, and we've seen this a couple of times, businesses stealing other businesses' team members and employees. There's one case that I'm thinking of in particular that kind of getting a little nasty. The two competitors are trying to take what they can, clients, team members, whatever they can, market share. They're just trying to take anything that they can from the other one. And one of them snatched the operator, which is really. [00:03:33] Not a good person to lose in your business.  [00:03:36] Jason: Yeah. No.  [00:03:36] Sarah: Why was that able to happen though? She had experience, right? So the new company is like, "Oh, this is perfect. She understands property management. She's got experience. She knows how to do this." [00:03:46] Jason: I mean, most entrepreneurs would think it's just about money because entrepreneurs always look through the lens of money. So they'll think, "well, she probably just got a better offer."  [00:03:54] Sarah: And in this case, I bet she did.  [00:03:56] Jason: Okay.  [00:03:56] Sarah: And the problem that we're overlooking here is we're skipping the most important part, which is looking to see if they're a culture fit. [00:04:06] And then the second most important part is looking to see, are they the right personality fit for the role. And then and only then do we want to look at their skill set and experience and do they have the intelligence level to be able to learn that particular task.  [00:04:18] Jason: Right? This is one of our frameworks, the three fits, culture fit, skill fit, personality fit, and culture fit, most important. [00:04:26] So, yeah, I agree. If people are not the right culture fit, then by default, you're overpaying for your team members, period. Because either they're underperforming because they don't really believe in your business or buy in. So their secret goal really is just to get paid as much as possible and probably do as little work as possible would be their ideal, right? [00:04:48] And so that's if they're not a culture fit. If they're a culture fit, they buy into the vision, they believe in you, they're excited to work for you. They want to have an impact. They have a motive besides just getting paid. And so, yeah, they're not a culture fit, it's guaranteed you're overpaying for that team member. [00:05:03] Because either they're crappy or you're having to like compensate them a bunch of money in order to keep them on board at your business because they really don't enjoy being there. So then you end up overpaying in order to keep them. And if people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily. [00:05:22] Sarah: Absolutely. And that is why this particular operator was able to be swayed. So if you've got people who are a culture fit, if you've got people who really believe in the company, in you as the business owner, in the vision and the mission, where you are wanting to go and what you are wanting to build, if people are truly bought in and on board with that, that makes all the difference in everything that they do. [00:05:52] So can you hire somebody with experience who understands how to use Buildium or Propertyware or your phone system, whatever it is, and your ticket system? Yeah. And they can come in and they can do the job and it would be a night and day difference If you had somebody who truly believed in your company and you had to just train them to do those things and then they were able to do that, they're going to outperform the person who only has the experience every day of the week. [00:06:22] Jason: Okay. So can you share an example? Because you, you mentioned some clients were having issues with this. So like, let's tie this in with maybe a story.  [00:06:31] Sarah: Yeah. So it was just last week I was talking with Andrew and he had recently hired a couple of team members. I think he hired a BDM and an admin and there was maybe someone for maintenance. [00:06:43] I don't remember who the third one was. So he had recently hired these people. Already he's looking to replace them because either they're not working out or they're moving on. So his BDM, she is a real estate agent as well. And she's like, "Oh, well, I'm just actually going to go focus on real estate. I don't think I'm going to do all of this." [00:07:02] And it's been under maybe two months, maybe three months. So not a very long time. And he had mentioned to me, "yeah, so I've got this one person in mind and their experience." And as soon as he said experience, I went, "uh oh, okay. He's hiring the wrong way. He's hiring completely the wrong way." [00:07:20] So I had asked him, I said, "all right, so just out of curiosity, when you're talking with people, when you're looking at resumes and your screening candidates, what are the things that you're looking at? Like, what do you look at first?" And he's like, "well, I look to see, do they have experience in the industry? [00:07:35] And specifically, do they already know how to use my tools?"  [00:07:37] Jason: Yeah. So that's first. Yeah. That's a big red flag. And a lot of people listening might not get that, but that's a red flag.  [00:07:43] Sarah: Huge.  [00:07:44] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:44] Sarah: So aside from the fact that, like I said, your Canada pool is so tiny. I mean, if there is a person I would love to meet you, who, when you were in, you know, kindergarten and elementary who said, "Oh! When I grew up, I want to be a property manager. When I grew up, I want to be a leasing agent for a property management company. I would love to do that. That's my dream job."  [00:08:06] Jason: Right?  [00:08:07] Sarah: Who? That doesn't happen. Right? So people kind of work their way into property management, but it's not the dream that you typically have when you're a child trying to choose your career path. [00:08:20] Jason: Yeah. And that's because the industry as a whole has an awareness problem. There's not a lot of people aware of property management and there's plenty of roles in property management that different personality types would enjoy doing or would thrive in. But people are not thinking of the industry. [00:08:36] And so, yeah, looking for people with experience, I think would be really limiting,  [00:08:40] Sarah: yes, very challenging. So you need to find somebody who has experience in the industry that already will be hard. And then, even if they have experience in the industry, then you're going to say, "Oh, and they need to have experience with my specific tools and software that I use." [00:08:57] That becomes harder.  [00:08:58] Jason: Right. [00:08:59] Sarah: So I had said to him, I said, "well, all right, I have experience as a leasing agent. Would you hire me?" Because I might know how to do leasing. I do. I do know how to do leasing, right? But I know how to do leasing my way because when I was running my company, I knew how I did leasing. [00:09:17] But that doesn't mean I know how to do leasing your way. So even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training. And a lot of times I think this is what happens is people go, "Oh, I would love to make my life easier and hire somebody, and then maybe I don't have to spend a whole lot of time training them on a tool or a system or how we do things because they already know how to do it." Even if they know the tool, they still don't know your processes. They don't know your way of doing things. So you will still have to train them. Now, it is possible that the training is easier if you don't have to explain how to use the tool, if they already know how to do it. [00:10:04] use it and they're familiar with it. Yes, that part of training becomes easier. It does not mean though that training will not still be a one to three month process, experience or not.  [00:10:17] Jason: Right. So, yeah, so you're saying a lot of people will try and hire somebody based on experience because they're trying to avoid having to take the time to train somebody. [00:10:27] Sarah: You can hire me. I can come into your business. And I can screw it up just as well as somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can. Why? Because even if I know how to use that tool, I know how to do it the way that I did it. I don't know how to do it the way that you do it yet. [00:10:45] I don't know your processes. I only know how I did leasing, and how I did leasing might be very different than how you do leasing. I know how I did sales, but that might be very different from how you do sales. I know how I onboarded clients, but that might be very different. I might do your leasing and you would go, "Sarah, what the hell? Why did this happen?" [00:11:09] "Well, I don't know. That's just how I used to do it." So if you hire someone who has the experience and has the knowledge, you still have to train them.  [00:11:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:11:18] Sarah: And training is the most important thing that you can do when hiring. If you hire anybody and you completely forget or just choose not to train them. [00:11:30] It is going to be a train wreck.  [00:11:32] Jason: I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs we're in the mode of like doing things quickly and we're impatient. And so we get lazy sometimes when it comes to onboarding team members. We're like, "yeah, just, here you go. We throw them to the wolves." [00:11:45] Sarah: Baptism by fire. Yeah, figure it out. [00:11:47] Jason: Yeah. And lazy onboarding is not, a great strategy, right? It's going to take work regardless of the person that you bring on. And there's advantages when they don't have the skill or the experience in that you can make sure that they're doing it the way that you value and the way that you like. [00:12:05] So there can be a benefit.  [00:12:07] I think for sure if they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying. If they're not the right personality fit for that particular role you'll just constantly be frustrated and training them and trying to onboard them will just be a demoralizing experience for you because it's impossible. [00:12:26] Like you'll be trying so hard to get them up to speed. And I think this is where people have experienced this and they're like, "well, I just need to go find someone with experience." But the real problem is they're not the right personality to do the job well. If somebody is the right personality, they would naturally be good at it. [00:12:41] They would be inclined towards doing it. You wouldn't have to motivate them or inspire them to do it. They would want to because they love doing it. It's aligned with who they are. And otherwise there's always going to be some serious friction. Culture and personality are off, there's going to be lots of friction. [00:12:57] And then even related to skill fit, if they're not intelligent enough to do the job, because some jobs require a little bit more Intelligence, right? You know, like the best team members are usually the best at problem solving. That's an intelligence challenge. You can give them all the skill, like here's the processes, et cetera. [00:13:15] But if they can't problem solve because they're an idiot, like then it becomes a real problem because you have to then do all the thinking. You need intelligent people. And so that's part of the skill fit. So you need all three. What's interesting about this. And we've talked about the three fits before on the podcast is you can't create culture, personality, or skill and intelligence. [00:13:37] Like you can't really create those. You have to go find it. You have to find somebody that has all three and just finding somebody that has one of the three is not going to be a fit. They have to be all three, or they can't be in your business. Or they're just going to be screwing things up and there's going to be so much friction so much waste. You're going to be spending way too much money. You're going to be spending way too much time trying to onboard them and it's going to be a mess. [00:13:59] Sarah: I agree.  [00:13:59] Jason: Cool So, in seeing these clients and people dealing with hiring, how do we solve that? How do we solve  [00:14:05] Sarah: this?  [00:14:05] You have to take the hiring process and flip it backwards. So the first thing you have to do is you have to determine if they're a culture fit for your business. But in order for that to happen, you have to know what your culture is and it has to be defined, which is why, and this is where people fight me, is when they want to implement DoorGrow hiring, they're like, "I desperately need to hire somebody. I need somebody like, please help me with hiring." Right.  [00:14:29] "Send me your cultural documents." [00:14:32] " Oh, I don't have those." [00:14:33] Sarah: "Then I can't help you find a good hire. I can't do it because it's Russian roulette." So if you don't have your culture defined, meaning I need your company core values. I need a decision making guide. [00:14:47] I need a client centric mission statement. I need your personal why, and I need your business why. Without those things, I cannot help you find someone who's going to be great because I will never know, nor will you, are they a good culture fit? If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that? [00:15:06] Jason: So what you're saying is people need a better system. They need a hiring system. And most don't really have a good system. I guess everybody has a hiring system, it's just usually a pretty crappy one. Building intentionally a really intelligently designed hiring system, which is what we do with DoorGrow hiring is a game changer for a business because hiring is one of the biggest challenges I've seen even in multimillion dollar companies with friends. And this is something we've gotten really well dialed in a DoorGrow, but this is a constant challenge for most businesses. And until they figure it out... I was talking with one of our clients yesterday ,and he added like 114 doors in like the last month or so. And so he's just like, his business is growing crazily. [00:15:49] And he's this amazing client because he does everything we tell him to do. He's got an operator. Now they're using DoorGrow OS, like they're crushing it. And I was talking with him and his big challenge right now is maintenance technicians. He had four, he lost two. So he's now trying to hire and In having a conversation with him, I had to shift his mindset that he's no longer right now, a property management company. [00:16:14] That's the business he thinks he's in. And because he thinks he's a property management company, he doesn't want to focus as much on the hiring piece. That's not the business that he's in, but I had to help him see right now, the business that he's in, is in order to scale, this is his biggest constraint is he's going to consistently need to be bringing in more maintenance techs into his business. [00:16:36] And so I said to him, I said, "your business for right now, until you get this solved, your business is not a property management company. Your business is a maintenance technician talent acquisition company. That's the business you're in." And until he accepts that he can't solve this problem. And so most businesses, this is a big constraint. [00:16:55] And for him right now, it's the constraint. And once he gets this solved, once he gets this dialed in. So that he becomes good at hiring and onboarding and getting up to speed with maintenance technicians. And he was planning on just trying to replace the two. In coaching, and we were talking about, you need to bring on probably four. [00:17:13] You need at least four in order to find one, maybe two that are going to be good and give them a working interview where you have them do some work to see if they can perform. And this means he needs an engine where he's consistently every month bringing in a good amount of maintenance technicians and has a system for doing this. [00:17:31] And so. Businesses need if you're wanting to scale and grow quickly, you have to have systems in place. And one of the key ones is a really solid hiring system that allows you to get culture, personality, and skill. And that's what we've developed with DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow ATS, our applicant tracking system. [00:17:49] And we talked about optimizing the ATS just for those particular candidates because they don't want to go through a more lengthy application process like we do with some candidates, you know, these maintenance techs and then vetting them through our AI assessments and stuff like this afterwards to assess them for problem solving because that's his biggest challenge. [00:18:06] He says, "my best maintenance techs are the problem solvers." I'm like, "that's an intelligence problem." So we have to figure out a way without doing illegal things, you know, or that you're not supposed to do you have to figure out a way to assess or figure out that they're intelligent. [00:18:21] And one way would be a working interview. Another way would be, you know, the AI assessment tool that can assess cognitive ability, you know, stuff like this. And that would come after he does a culture interview with them first. He was looking for skill and that's the challenge. [00:18:35] So it was good. Super common. Everybody always goes, Oh, I need skill. I need experience.  [00:18:41] Yes, and you do want people that have some experience would be great, but having people that have the intelligence level to absorb information quickly and to learn and the problem solve is way better than having somebody that has a ton of experience, but is terrible at adapting and is dumb. [00:18:59] Any day of the week. And so they will get up to speed and supersede somebody with a decade of experience if they're slow and not able to learn anytime. So, all right. This is a good topic. Anything else we should say about this?  [00:19:14] Sarah: That's what I got.  [00:19:14] Jason: All right, cool. Hopefully this was helpful for those of you listening. [00:19:17] If you're struggling with hiring. A lot of you have made these mistakes, right? You've hired, you've had people churn out. You're like, "it's hard to find good people." These are the excuses we hear from people that have a crappy hiring system. "There's no good people out there. It's tough in my market. We can't find good people. Millennials don't want to work," you know, but whatever, right? "I just pay people, why won't they just do what I f*cking tell them to do?" You know, whatever it might be. So, that's just a sign that you have a bad hiring system or that you just have terrible culture or you have bad onboarding. [00:19:50] Sarah: Or no culture.  [00:19:51] Jason: No culture to find. No culture. Yeah. And so, we need to get these things cleaned up in your business or your business is constantly going to be a prison for you. It's going to be really hard until you get a really good team and you have really good culture in your business defined, business is hard. [00:20:07] And this is where I see a lot of people get stuck between two to 400 units where they have an entire team and they're the most frustrated and usually the least profitable per unit they've ever been because it's the team and they can't see it. They're like, "I have a good team." You have a team that are willing to take your money, but are they a great team? [00:20:25] Super easy way to know... if you have an entire team and you've got two to 400 units or more, and you have been unable to scale it past 600 doors for the last three to five years, you've been kind of stuck there and you are still wearing hats that you do not want to be wearing. [00:20:43] And you're sometimes asking, "why won't my team think for themselves?" You're the problem. This is the problem. You are showing up as the wrong person in the business and you have bad culture and a bad hiring system. And if you want to get that solved, reach out to us at DoorGrow. This is very simple to solve. [00:21:00] It's not too difficult. And we can probably get most of that mess cleaned up in like a single quarter, like 90 days. So reach out to us. We'd love to help you out. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. And if you're wanting more, if you stumble across this, maybe on YouTube or somewhere else, make sure to like, and subscribe and join our free Facebook community DoorGrowclub.Com. You can get to it by going to DoorGrowclub.Com. And until next time to our mutual growth by everyone. [00:21:26] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:52] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

A lot of the property managers we talk to who want to grow say the same thing, “I just need more leads.” In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the 6 major leaks that property managers can have in their sales pipeline and why they don't just “need more leads.” You'll Learn [06:22] 1. Positioning [10:14] 2. Perception [11:19] 3. Presence [15:30] 4. Pricing [18:18] 5. Purpose [20:24] 6. Pitch Tweetables “Does it make sense to turn on the hose full blast if there's all these leaks?” “People want to work with a specialist. They don't want to turn over their biggest assets ever and their financial future to somebody that's dabbling in property management.” “If your reviews are good, it backs up everything that you say in your sales pitch.” “Are you clear on your personal motivations for why you have this business beyond just getting money?” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Get these things dialed in and shored up and what you'll find is: you may not need nearly as many leads. [00:00:05] You won't have to spend nearly as much money on advertising or any money.  [00:00:12] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:32] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGroww, and now let's get into the show. [00:01:19] Sarah: We wore DoorGrow colors today.  [00:01:20] Jason: Oh, we did. For those  [00:01:22] that can see us. We're wearing DoorGrow colors. It's not on purpose. Yeah. Green and blue. All right.  [00:01:27] Sarah: I wanted something easy. It was like, let me get a comfortable dress that looks nice, but it's comfortable. Ladies know what I'm talking about. [00:01:34] They're like, "yeah, those are awesome. That's this." [00:01:37] Jason: Okay. It's good to know. So we were talking about what we should talk about today. And one of the things that I've been doing on sales calls in conversations with potential clients is taking them through a diagnosis and diagnosing the front end sales pipeline of their business. [00:01:56] The challenge is a lot of people come to us that want to grow. We're called DoorGrow. So we certainly can help with that. We've been doing that for a long time. One of the things we've noticed though, is that a lot of times people think, "I just need more leads." They just think they need more leads. And some of you are just going to be listening to this, so I'm not going to do a drawing, I'm going to explain what I would usually draw, but I usually draw like a spigot, or a faucet, or whatever you call it, and a hose attached to this, and this long hose, and then a like a plant pot at the end of this hose that you're trying to water a little tree or something. [00:02:30] And I usually put fruit on it because that's your business and you want to get something from it. Like you want it to bear fruit, like make you money or something. Right. And so we've got this tree we want to grow and we've got this pipeline. This is our sales pipeline, this hose. And we think we just need to turn on more water. [00:02:46] Right. It seems to make sense. What I've realized though, over time is we used to do lead generation for property managers. Like that was like a offering that we had, a core offering that we had for our clients. So we would help them just turn on the hose, like full blast. We'd help them turn that on and they wouldn't be able to get business. [00:03:05] They wouldn't be able to get enough water to grow their business. Like it wasn't working and it wasn't the leads. It wasn't the lead generation necessarily. It was the hose. They had like all these major leaks that were preventing it. So over time, I started to see like, they'd be like, "well, it's not working." [00:03:19] I'm like, "well, you're not even answering your phone," or "you're waiting 24 hours before responding to a lead. And it's only good for like 15 minutes." And there was just all these leaks and problems. And there were some bigger, more macro level problems in their sales pipeline. [00:03:32] Like their pricing was terrible, so it was off. Or their branding was off. And so people were like, "well, yeah, but they look like a real estate company," or their website was awful and it would send traffic to their website and it was just leaking money. And so the fluid, if you will, that flows through the pipeline. [00:03:51] Is five currencies, time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. These are what you have to invest. And if you're shelling out a bunch of money, time, energy, focus, all of these things, right into the pipeline because you're just turning it on full blast, it's just going to leak out and you're just wasting all of that. [00:04:09] You're wasting time. You're wasting money. You're wasting your energy. Right. And it, and a lot of businesses are like, "I just need more leads." So I call this the leads myth. And so we found it to be effective is to start looking at the business and if they come to us saying, "Hey, we want to grow." [00:04:24] "Okay. How would you like us to help?" They're like, "we need more leads." [00:04:27] "okay, you may need more leads, but first, does it make sense to turn on the hose full blast if there's all these leaks?" [00:04:34] "What leaks?" Right?  [00:04:35] "Okay, well, let's take a look at your business and see if you have any of these." So we thought today we would get into some of these leaks so you can self assess and figure out, all right, how's my business doing? [00:04:43] We're going to do the quick, super fast version of this. And I recommend you set up a longer call with our team so we can go through this. Okay?  [00:04:52] Sarah: Oh, or if you want the short, shorter version and you're like, "Hey, I want to see it. It's visual." then go to YouTube on our YouTube channel. We have a video that we created about this and our hose just died and like, I think it froze over the winter and we went to go turn it on and everything was leaking. So then we were like, "Oh, Well, before we throw the hose away let's make a video because this is what we talk about all the time." [00:05:16] Yeah. So we did make a video. So if you want to visually see this and watch Jason get water everywhere and make a big mess, then watch a video.  [00:05:25] Jason: It's pretty goofy. So if you wanna laugh at me or make fun of me, that'd be a good one to watch. So just go to youtube.com/doorgrow and go to the playlists that we have and then go to funny videos and I'm sure you'll enjoy laughing at me and Sarah laugh at ourselves, especially. [00:05:44] All right. So let's chat about this, these leaks. So these are some of the things that may be preventing you from closing as many deals, and you may have plenty of leads, but you may not be closing as many as you could be. And so these are some of the leaks. So, there's six major leaks that we focus on in our Rapid Revamp class, and if you're interested in this class where we help you shore up all of these leaks so that you can more easily grow more quickly without even changing whatever lead generation stuff that you're already doing or what's working, this will increase the output of what makes it through the hose and to grow your business Okay, so the first leak at the very beginning, and these are all blind spots the most businesses have is Positioning and so in positioning, we focus on the brand branding And so what are some of the things related to branding? [00:06:37] Sarah: Well, the big one that we see a lot, and we did a video about this too is what is the name of your company? Is it something "real estate, realty, properties, investments, assets, solutions," things like that. So if any of those is how your brand name ends. then that could be a very potential big issue in your branding. [00:07:05] And you could be turning people off before they even decide to have a conversation with you.  [00:07:10] Jason: Yeah. People want to work with a specialist. They don't want to turn over their biggest assets ever and their financial future to somebody that's dabbling in property management but is primarily focused on real estate. [00:07:21] So if you have realty real estate in your name, for example, you have a significant leak here. So if a hundred percent flow through would be the ideal, you have maybe a 50% right at this stage. There's this there's loss. Is your name generic to the location? For example, you're Phoenix Property Management in Phoenix. [00:07:39] Or is it generic to the industry like property management inc? Sorry guys. Or real property management, right? These things are really difficult to remember right generic names. And that hurts word of mouth and it hurts people telling people about your business and all that kind of stuff, right? [00:07:55] So is it unclear that it's property management? Like Sarah mentioned, like maybe we're "Prestige Properties or Radiant Rentals." Radient Rentals, "oh, do you do bouncy houses and like chairs and stuff for weddings?" Right. So there might be confusion there in the marketplace, or do you have a overly common name? Could be a problem. Like lighthouse, just Google lighthouse property management, and there's like a bazillion companies all over the place that want to be a lighthouse. [00:08:19] And so they all get mixed up and confused, right? Because property management is a kind of a global competition. Even if it's only focused on a local market, right? You're getting investors from overseas sometimes you're getting investors from out of state. And so if they're trying to find you, "Oh, well, they said their name's light- oh man. There's a lot of lighthouse. I don't know." Right. And these are just some of the challenges with branding that we teach in our branding secrets and helping clean that up.  [00:08:45] Sarah: Yeah. And one of the worst things is if they're looking for you and then they find a competitor instead, or they find the same or a very similar named company, but they're nowhere near your market. [00:08:59] Because then what happens is you're now connected to this other company. Even if you're like, "well, I'm in Tennessee and this other company, yeah, but they're in like Nevada." Well, Oh, okay. You would think the distance alone would be enough to separate the two, however, we have to remember that sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes people don't read, right? [00:09:22] So if an angry tenant from that other company is like so fuming and they get on and they're like, "I am leaving a horrible review" and it hits your company just because you have a similar name and they didn't bother to read. Now we have issues.  [00:09:36] Jason: And there's lots of other challenges. You could have your name, like some clever misspelled name, like a barbershop called haircutz with a Z. [00:09:43] Sarah: Like my biggest pet peeve.  [00:09:44] Jason: Like there's lots of ways you can screw up branding.  [00:09:47] Sarah: Spell things correctly. Don't get cute.  [00:09:49] Jason: Or acronyms. Acronyms aren't super effective. Like PMI. Sorry guys. All right. So let's go to the second leak. So give yourself a rating on that. Like just a quick judgment, like on a scale of zero to a hundred, how effective is your brand in being memorable and in word of mouth and whatnot? [00:10:07] So maybe it's 50%. Maybe it's totally off in the category. Maybe it's worse. Maybe it's like 20, 30%. Next perception. This is reputation. How are you perceived online? What are your ratings maybe on Yelp, on Google, on Facebook? How many reviews do you have in relation to your competition? And what is your rating? So quantity diversity, do you have reviews on lots of channels? How do you compare to your competition in your local market? Because people are going to check you out. They're going to judge you. And if your reviews are bad, even if everything else you do is amazing, this can put, be a significant clamp in the hose. [00:10:45] And if your reviews are good, it backs up everything that you say in your sales pitch.  [00:10:50] Sarah: And if you have no reviews at all, this is also an issue. Yeah. So sometimes people go, "Oh, well, like I'm brand new. I don't have any reviews, so I don't have that problem yet." It's still a problem. It's just a problem in a different way. [00:11:02] Jason: So let's go to number three. So give yourself a rating on that. Zero to a hundred. Where are you at in relation to your competition? Are you the best reviewed company in your market? Are you like somewhere in the middle? Are you the worst, right? Or do you have no reputation, right? How are you perceived? [00:11:17] All right. So you have a number there. All right. Number three, presence. This is the website, right? Your online presence. So there's a lot of different roles related to the website. I'll, I can throw out a couple, a few real quick. If you really want to grade your website, and not just like how much does Google like it? [00:11:36] Not that if you want to grade your website, how much people like it, how effective it is for capturing business, right? How big of a leak do you have in the hose? Go to doorgrow.com/quiz and take our website quiz and grade your website. Do this, you might have a brand new, beautiful, amazing website and it's like just hemorrhaging and leaking money. [00:11:59] All traffic feeds to the website, right? Your reviews feed to the website. Everything goes there. Your ads feed to the website. Take a look at this leak and get your grade and see what it is. And we're happy to then get on a call with you and tell you why your website sucks, help you figure out like how to make it better. [00:12:16] So, couple of quick things. It should answer three core questions like above the fold when they first land on the page, what you visibly can see in on the screen should answer that there are three core questions, which is, "do you do what I need in the place I need it? What do you do and where?" And second, "why should I choose you to do it over your competition?" And then third is "what do you want me to do?" There should be some sort of call to action. Most websites don't even have those three really basic things, three basic questions that people have. So that's a great starting point And then there's other things like how many menu items do you have? [00:12:54] If you have too many menu items, it actually decreases conversion rates. Do you have like distractions like social media icons and different things trying to send people away from your website which can decrease conversion rates and getting business and leads. Do you have trust symbols and social proof and testimonials and things that increase conversion rates? [00:13:14] Do you have a lead capture form on the page? We've studied this for well over a decade. We've studied this the top website companies that target and focus on property management try to copy our stuff without understanding the psychology behind it and try and copy our designs. [00:13:33] I believe we build the most effective and the most beautiful websites in the industry. And so if this is an issue, DoorGrow can help you with this. So, talk to us and get a new website.  [00:13:44] Sarah: Before we move on, I just learned this yesterday, I think yesterday or the day before. So if your website was once amazing. [00:13:51] And you're like, "no, my website is great. It's so awesome." But it's old. Then it's not doing you the good that you think it is. And maybe at one point it was, maybe it was so fantastic. But now all of a sudden, if things seem like they dried up a little bit, it could be that it needs a little bit of a refresh. [00:14:10] And apparently the shelf life on a website is about two to three years and then it needs. To be redone.  [00:14:17] Jason: Yeah, this is true. I've forgotten about this. I'm totally aware of this, but I just, I forgot that other people don't realize this. And so websites have a shelf life just like fashion does, just like anything else does. [00:14:30] And so websites start to look stale or out of date or old and create the perception of being old too. So a lot of people don't perceive that their website is actually looking stale and looking old and causing issues for them, right? [00:14:45] And people will perceive you, "Oh, this company's more modern and we're up to date or fresh or is with it or gets it, and this company it looks like they've been in business forever, maybe. They're using old techniques and they don't know what they're doing, right? So make sure your business is no older than maybe two to three years. [00:15:03] It's probably time.  [00:15:04] Sarah: Not your business. Your website.  [00:15:05] Jason: Yeah, sorry.  [00:15:06] Sarah: If your business is three years...  [00:15:09] Jason: just get rid of it. So if your website, usually people will go until about five years. By five years, it's usually visibly painful, and this is usually where business owners reach out to us for a new website. [00:15:22] If your website is five years old or older, it's due. And you know it, like you can look at it and go, "this doesn't look fresh." All right. So good point. All right, next is pricing.  [00:15:32] Sarah: I love the pricing calls that we do. They're so good.  [00:15:35] Jason: It's such a magic trick. [00:15:35] Sarah: And also people get stuck here for a really long time.  [00:15:39] Jason: Yeah, so most pricing, just to be clear, is set by companies focusing on the worst people in the market. They're focused on the cheapos and they're focused on what they can capture through internet marketing, which are the worst leads. And so the cheapos are really price sensitive. [00:15:56] So it creates this sort of downward race to the bottom in terms of price. So, most people typically do a 10 percent in most markets. Maybe a little less than that in really high rent markets, or they'll do some sort of flat fee. So, Most pricing is not good and it's probably similar to what everyone else in your market is doing, and so you look the same as everybody else. [00:16:17] So there's unique methodology in doing pricing. And so we focus on our unique blend of what we call a three tier hybrid pricing model, which focuses on three different types of buyers psychologically and creates a proper incentive to get more high rent properties, less lower end properties and it lowers your operational costs, right? [00:16:41] Because the higher rent properties generally have a lower operational costs and they make you more money. Right. And so your pricing model is probably unknowingly incentivizing you getting on some of the worst clients and the worst properties and not helping you to set yourself apart from the competition. [00:16:58] So we've never had anyone really come to us with good pricing, never. And so we've always helped people clean this up. And then they close more deals more easily at a higher price point. And you might think that's crazy, but that's what we do.  [00:17:11] Sarah: And they tell us that!  [00:17:12] Jason: Yeah. [00:17:12] Sarah: We're not just saying it. [00:17:14] Like our clients tell us that they're like, "Oh, I didn't think I was going to do this and I didn't want to and I didn't even think it was going to work, so I figured I'd try it and then i'll just change it back when it doesn't work," And every time, they are so surprised and they love it and they're like "man I really wish I did this sooner." [00:17:30] That would have been so much better if I did this.  [00:17:32] Jason: They usually get a significant number of their clients upgrading to a premium tier so they're making more money off their existing portfolio right away. And so usually pricing's this magic trick we can pull out of our hat that we can immediately pay for if they have a decent number of clients. [00:17:47] We can immediately pay for our program and our program's now basically free, right? So let's get into the next one. So rate your pricing, if it's typical of everybody else then maybe you give yourself, if you want you can give yourself a 60 70 percent or something like that, but I would say it's a 50 percent because the profit margin difference can be pretty significant, right? [00:18:08] But give yourself some sort of rating if you're cheaper than most of your competitors give yourself below a 50 percent Like you're worse than everybody else. So give yourself a number there. What's your leak? All right next:  [00:18:18] Purpose. This is the most important thing that we take clients through. This causes not just a leak in your sales pipeline, but it causes a leak with your team and a leak with financials. It's one of the greatest profitability hacks. [00:18:30] It's one of our greatest. Sales hacks, and it sounds like woo fluffy BS, but purpose is the most significant thing that we do in companies. And our clients tell us this was the most significant thing that we did. So what do you want to say about purpose?  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah. So this is usually where we start in our rapid revamp and then, and only then can we then continue on with the rest of the class because everything stems from this. So if you're trying to fix your pricing and you don't understand your company culture yet, it's not going to make sense because you're going to have to redo your pricing. If you're trying to fix your website and your branding and your online perception, but you haven't figured out. the foundation of where all of these other things come from, then it doesn't matter because you're going to have to go back and fix it anyway, because you don't really have clarity on that. But once you get clarity on that, everything else becomes so much easier now.  [00:19:23] Jason: Yeah. So the way to score this is, some questions you might ask are do you have maybe three or four core values defined? [00:19:31] If you have a lot more than that, then give yourself a lower score because that means really, it means nothing. Do you have a clearly defined mission for the business? Are you clear on who you're targeting and is it clearly defined and written down? Like, how do they know what a good client looks like versus a bad one? [00:19:46] Right. Are you clear on your personal motivations for why you have this business beyond just getting money? That in a way that you could relate it clearly your personal why? Are you clear on the business's purpose or your team? Right? So do you have a ceo decision making guide so others know how you think on your team, right? [00:20:03] There's a lot of different things that deliverables in the purpose Weeks in our rapid revamp that we help businesses define, and it changes the profitability. It changes everything in the business. So based on these questions, give yourself a rating on zero to 100 percent and figure out where you're at. [00:20:19] And if you don't have a lot of these things defined, then give yourself a pretty low grade, right? Next is pitch. So purpose feeds into the pitch and so you need those things defined. But what's your sales pitch like? Is it basically just answer questions and then hope they sign up? [00:20:35] Which is bad. That's pretty weak, right? Or do you, for example, like us have a four phase process that's systematically like getting clear on what they need and breaking things down and then figuring out like how to deal with objections and et cetera. Right. What's your sales pitch? How effective is it? [00:20:53] Do you have visuals that maybe facilitate that, et cetera? Right. So if you feel like you have a high close rate, right. But it's just warm leads like a referral. You're you have a really high close rate, that doesn't mean you have a good pitch. That doesn't mean you're good at selling. That just means they were a warm lead, right? [00:21:09] So in dealing with colder leads or where it's competitive or they're looking at you and several other competitors, how good are you at convincing them to use you over everybody else? May help you see how effective your pitch is right on colder leads or more lukewarm leads, right? So give yourself a rating on pitch. [00:21:25] Anything else related to pitch  [00:21:27] Sarah: So I'll just one more time reiterate the company culture, you can't have a good sales pitch if you don't first know your company culture. Yeah. So if you're like, "Oh wait, like my pitch is so good. I can close anybody." You're missing your company culture and you do not have that piece defined, there is no way that you can have a great sales pitch, at least in the way that we teach it. So we have the golden bridge formula. You can not do the golden bridge formula if you do not first understand your why and your business why. You don't have those two pieces? You're not doing the golden bridge. And without the golden bridge, sales just gets hard. It just gets hard. And then it's like, "well, like I don't want to be pushy, but also I want to close deals and I have to sell people and like, I don't know, I'm in this loop I don't understand why I can't close things and like, this should be easier." And then people go and they take a bunch of courses to learn how to do sales better. [00:22:23] You can just have a better sales pitch.  [00:22:25] Jason: Yeah. Good point. So to sum all this up, all of these leaks are leaks in trust. And if in your pitch, for example, you are trying to sell property management, you're selling the wrong product. Nobody really cares about property management. That's not what they want to buy. [00:22:42] And so what they really want to buy is peace of mind or safety and certainty. They want to buy, they're buying their trust in you. They want trust. And so all of these leaks in the pipeline relate to trust. They're all trust leaks, sales and deals happen. You could write this down, tattoo it on your forehead. [00:22:59] Don't do that. Put it up on your wall. Sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. And so if you have any of these major trust leaks, you are just wasting time, energy, money, focus, cash effort. Right. And so let's get these leaks all shored up. It doesn't make sense to keep putting blood transfusions into somebody when they have their arm chopped off and they're just hemorrhaging blood. [00:23:22] That's pretty gruesome, but  [00:23:24] Sarah: yeah  [00:23:24] Jason: Stop the bleeding first. And then, "Hey, it makes sense now. Now that we've stopped this major bleeding, let's now take care of things. Right?" And so get these things dialed in and shored up and what you'll find is: you may not need nearly as many leads. [00:23:39] You won't have to spend nearly as much money on advertising or any money. Our clients don't, most of them don't spend any money on ads or lead generation, and they actually had doors faster than their competitors that are. And so this is the starting point. Get this stuff cleaned up. It's like sharpening the ax first, before you go and chop down trees, do the smart thing first and everything else becomes easier. [00:23:59] And this really is lubricating your entire sales process. Everything flows through a lot easier. And so you could double your deals flowing through without changing any of your lead sources that you've already got going right now, just by shoring these up. And so get these blind spots dialed in and reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:24:15] And we'll tell you about a rapid revamp program where we tackle each of these leaks in two weeks, two weeks for each leak. And so it's a 90 day program. It's really rapid and it will transform the front end of your business forever. Okay. That's it. So you can find us at DoorGrow. com and until next time to our mutual growth. [00:24:35] Bye everyone. [00:24:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:25:03] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In May, we had our annual DoorGrow Live event! What makes DoorGrow Live different from other property management conferences? In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about our most recent DoorGrow Live conference and some of the topics discussed. You'll Learn [01:12] What was different about this year's DoorGrow Live? [04:48] Tactics vs. Mindset [06:41] Changing the order of your priorities [10:17] Hard choices, easy life Tweetables “Tactics and the how can always be figured out.” “It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset.” “The hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term.” “If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hall, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. Okay.  [00:01:12] And so what we're going to be talking about today is we just had DoorGrow Live and DoorGrow Live was a success. It was a lot of fun and it was a little bit different this year. So how would you say it was different this year, Sarah?  [00:01:27] Sarah: So I think a lot of people were saying, "Hey, it feels like there was really just a lot of heart that went into this event." [00:01:35] So usually when I think you and I run events, we're very tactical. How do you do this? How do you do that? And let's share this strategy and let's talk about this thing. And this year we changed things up a little bit and you were maybe a little hesitant to follow the formula that I put together, might I add. [00:01:53] And so maybe on the podcast you can tell people that It worked?  [00:01:57] Jason: It worked.  [00:01:58] Sarah: And? Do you have anything else to say about that?  [00:02:00] Jason: Anyone that knows Sarah knows what she wants to hear right now. You were right. There it is! There it is. There it is. That's what she wanted. There it is.  [00:02:10] Sarah: So this year when I was putting together the schedule and the agenda, there was this whole plan that I had. [00:02:17] And I was like, "Oh no, we need to order things like this and do things like this. And this is what I wanted." And he's like, " I don't know if that's going to work. And why are we doing this whole thing? And we're like putting this whole thing together. And like, you don't even know if it's going to work the way you want." [00:02:30] Jason: Is this how I sound?  [00:02:31] Sarah: Yes.  [00:02:32] Jason: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:34] Sarah: "I don't know if it's gonna work."  [00:02:36] Jason: That's totally what I sound like.  [00:02:38] Sarah: It was perfect.  [00:02:39] Jason: I'm shaking my head no, by the way, for the listeners.  [00:02:41] Sarah: See you probably, they probably didn't even know that was me talking. They just thought it was you.  [00:02:45] Jason: Oh, yeah. [00:02:46] You do such a good impersonation of me. I know. It's really quite impressive. I'll go back to my normal voice so that you realize it's Sarah talking. Yeah, for the listeners, we need to make sure there's two distinct voices or they're going to be really confused why I'm talking to myself because you sound so much like me. [00:03:03] Sarah: I know. I'm so sorry if I confused anyone.  [00:03:06] Jason: Nobody was confused. Okay. So...  [00:03:08] Sarah: so he was giving me a little bit of a hard time about it because I, like, made him sit down and map this out and I was like, "no, there's a formula that we're supposed to follow and this is what I want it to look like." And I think it worked out really well. [00:03:21] Jason: Yeah, the event went really well.  [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:03:24] Jason: Things ran pretty much like clockwork. That's hard. It's hard to do that in events. Like speakers go over, people don't stop. Like, we had this big, huge red LED clock right in front of the speaker. So it was like super obvious, like, and we, I think we had conversations with all the speakers, like everything worked pretty smoothly. [00:03:43] The general feedback I got from a lot of clients one of our clients, Ed Golding, came up to me and he was just smiling. He'd been to some previous ones and he said, "this was different, you know, what was different about this?" I said, "what, Ed? " He said, "heart, this one had heart." [00:03:56] And it was an emotional event. There was lot more emotion at this event. Did we talk about tactics? Yes. I explained how I've been able to leverage social media and different tools and, I've made millions of dollars off social media. And I shared some really cool tools and very tactical stuff. [00:04:12] That's how I opened up the event. But we got into a lot of mindset and what we've realized over time, that we talked about at the event that most of our clients are not winning or losing because they don't, or do have tactics. Tactics and the how can always be figured out. And I liked Jeff Garner's tattoo he talked about but....  [00:04:33] Sarah: he's funny.  [00:04:33] Jason: He's like, " can I say it? There's children present." I had my kids at the event.  [00:04:36] Sarah: They're my kids. Like they hear it all the time.  [00:04:40] Jason: Yeah, so he's got a tattoo that's FTH Which stands for "fuck the how" so and so a lot of times people are so worried about "how do I do this? How do I do this?" And we do share tactics. We do a lot of that at DoorGrow. However, It's not really the tactics that are the problem. It's almost always the mindset. And so whenever I teach tactics. I always am going into the why behind it and the mindset stuff. And when they start to understand this stuff, then they will actually do it usually. [00:05:13] So there was a lot of mindset at the event. And then also, there's vulnerability. Like I openly shared how I've been reevaluating my priorities and what those look like and how how that looks. You were sharing about your upbringing and how like the difficult things in life are also the things that make us who we are and help us to enable us to help others and how to view it through a different lens, which I thought was really awesome. [00:05:39] And everybody's crying. Sarah's making everybody cry. Like I was crying, like...  [00:05:44] Sarah: I made people cry in a very different way this time though. I'm usually making people cry because I'm yelling at them.  [00:05:50] Jason: That's not true.  [00:05:51] Sarah: It's a little true. It's a little true.  [00:05:54] Jason: Not our clients, just me.  [00:05:56] Sarah: No, I don't do, but I do give our clients tough love when they need it. [00:05:59] And Kelly came to the event and she's like, "this is exactly what I needed." I'm like, "I know that's why I was on you for like three months." [00:06:07] Jason: Yeah. I think some people had some breakthroughs, which that's the goal. Like we want to change lives. And so there's something just really beautiful about this DoorGrow Live. [00:06:16] There was a lot of more depth to it and I just feel grateful to be able to be part of it and to see, our clients that believe in us and that, that came in just seeing their progress and, there are people there that have been in our program for years, which is just. [00:06:29] It's really awesome to see. So, so I thought I would share just a little bit today about what I had shared and this will be a quick episode cause Sarah doesn't want me to go long. So this'll be a quick one.  [00:06:41] Sarah: Back to back today.  [00:06:42] Jason: You got a busy day. So what I shared is I talked a little bit about prioritization and I've talked about this previously, but what what was interesting, one of my breakthroughs recently was recognizing I was basically merging in my mind, the five basic needs. [00:06:57] Which I don't know who put that out. We learned it from our friend Roya.  [00:07:01] Sarah: But maybe it was... [00:07:02] Jason: maybe it's Tony Robbins. I don't know. So there's five basic needs and the five basic needs are love and belonging, power and achievement fun and adventure, fun and pleasure, safety and security. [00:07:15] Sarah: And I'll see when you put them in a weird order, then I don't remember them. Freedom and flexibility.  [00:07:20] Jason: Freedom and flexibility. Freedom. There we go. Yeah. Okay. These are five basic needs and we all have one that's primary. For Sarah, it's power and achievement. Nobody's surprised, right? For me, it's actually love and belonging. [00:07:33] And a lot of my achievement and a lot of the things that I do. Are to, that's what motivates that we're helping clients working with clients love and belonging and having that connection. That's why I like working with entrepreneurs because I don't feel like such a weirdo when I'm around other people that are that weird, that are also entrepreneurial. [00:07:51] But what I've come to realize that if I make that my highest priority, I tend to get less of it. And I think this is true for anyone with their basic need. If you really think about it, if Sarah just went after power and achievement. And didn't prioritize like relationships and other things, it could be pretty destructive and it would likely have the opposite desired effect in trying to achieve power and whatnot, right? [00:08:13] Because we need others. And then for me, if I'm just going after love and belonging, I would be less likely to get it. If I didn't have my own oxygen mass first, if I didn't have financial wealth and health, if I didn't have physical health then it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I wouldn't be nearly as present. [00:08:31] I wouldn't be able to enjoy much love and connection or belonging, in relationships. I wouldn't be able to feed into relationships as much if I weren't taking care of myself. And so based on that I, I had everybody map out or stack or list their priorities in their life, and then I showed how my priorities were listed and then Like what my natural inclination is placing like love and belonging at the top. [00:08:59] And then I showcased how I've intentionally consciously listed them and rearranged the priority and how that affects my decision making in my day to day so that I spend more of my time in my day to day moving towards the top priorities, which are not on my new adjusted priority list are not the love and connection related things related to family, sex, relationship, stuff like that. So above that, I've placed God at the top which is, for some of you that might be your highest ideal, whatever that is. And so I want to always be pointed towards my highest ideal. Second, I put power, achievement, impact, and that's related money status, all that. [00:09:41] And that allows me to have impact. Which leads to me getting what I want. It's a leading sort of thing. And then the next is health. I need to be prioritizing health. And then it gets into more of the relationship stuff in the priorities. Whereas before I was putting family, friends, fun was probably higher on the list, but I felt like I wasn't ever able to do as much of that as I wanted. [00:10:04] Because I was so focused on the other stuff. And so by reordering the priorities, it takes work. Like it takes effort to go towards what's easy and what's natural usually leads to a harder life. And so there's this stoic phrase that I like that is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:10:26] And the hard choice is to not go for what you immediately want, but to reorder and prioritize some things that are more relevant to the long term, playing the long game, doing what maybe I feel deep down inside I should do connected when I'm connected to God or focusing on my health, doing the playing the long game instead of doing the short term, right? [00:10:49] The short term is like eat, Häagen Dazs vanilla ice cream, vanilla bean ice cream. It's like my favorite right now. I love that. Or whatever, right? When we're just trying to please our tongue and our genitals, we tend to have a much harder life, right? And this is the short term. We're just going for the short term gain. [00:11:05] And so we want to make sure we prioritize the long game, the long term. and give up where that means sacrifice in the short term. That means work. That means effort. And a lot of people just aren't putting in enough work or enough effort in the lazy people in society are the people that are always trying to please their tongue and their genitals. [00:11:24] Maybe it's crass, my crass way of saying it. Okay. It's a little gross. Okay. So that's what I shared at DoorGrow Live. And so I encourage all of you listening, like make a list. What are your priorities? And what I shared is your results reveal your priorities. So if you don't like the results in your life, write them down. [00:11:43] Like, what are your relationships like? What's your business like? What are you doing in the business? What aren't you doing in the business? Or what are you enjoying? What are you not enjoying? And if you don't like the results, then it's probably because your priorities are not in the right order. It doesn't mean you give up or change your priorities, right? All of the things that were my priorities before are still priorities for me. I've just rearranged the order and by just rearranging the order, it changes everything. It changes the results that you get and you'll get more of the results that you really desire if you rearrange those priorities in a way that probably will take you more effort and more work, but will allow you to get everything that you want in the long run. [00:12:28] So that was my message. That's the simple message. Rearrange your priorities figure out your basic need, put that lower on the list, and figure out what needs to come before in order for you to have as much of that as possible because I want you to enjoy your life, but you need to do make hard choices. [00:12:41] And you need to do hard things.  [00:12:43] But it was an awesome event and make sure you are keeping an eye on doorgrowlive.com for the future and make sure to attend in the future. [00:12:52] Everybody says our conferences are different than any other property management conference out there. And That's a good thing. Like we do it in a good way. So, I recommend you attend. So you can check out more details about future events at doorgrowlive.Com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business and have success like our clients were showcasing at DoorGrow Live and grow your business, scale your operations, have a better lifestyle, enjoy your team more, enjoy your business, be less frustrated, have more peace, reach out to us at DoorGrow. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. We would love to see if we can help you scale your business. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:36] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:02] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you have been struggling to grow your property management business, you might have been prioritizing the wrong things… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how having the right priorities and getting support helps with business growth. You'll Learn [01:30] Are you prioritizing the right things? [08:30] Why you CAN'T do everything yourself [20:20] How prioritizing safety might hinder growth [27:30] Why you should be willing to take risks [30:50] Prioritize results and get those results Tweetables “You may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order.” “I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because ‘we want it done right' means ‘done according to my set of values.'” “Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.” “You can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:00:06] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. Like, pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:56] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:25] I did the intro right this time I think. I didn't screw it up. We could just have it prerecorded, people. You never know what you're going to get. Okay. So I was thinking about what we could talk about this morning and I've been doing some reflection and some study and the topic that just keeps coming up in my mind is prioritization and priorities. [00:01:44] In fact, I'll probably talk a little bit about that and do an exercise with some of the cool people that are coming to DoorGrowLive. Cause I really think if you're not experiencing growth and you're not having the success that you want, you're not getting the results that you want in business and life, then it's pretty simple. It's just that your priorities are out of alignment with you getting the results that you want. And you may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order. And so you're prioritizing something over the thing that if you prioritize would give you the results that you actually want in your life. [00:02:20] And so I was thinking about this question and I threw it out to Sarah while she's getting ready this morning. And I said, "what are people prioritizing over growth?" Because the people that come into our program, the work with us, they get great results. They are different. They're prioritizing growth over certain other things. [00:02:39] And so people that don't work with us, why do they not spend money on coaching? Why don't they invest in coaching? And so why don't we go to Sarah and find out, what do you think? Why are people not spending money on coaching? Like where entrepreneurs at in their journey that mentally that's preventing them from spending money on a coach, moving the business forward or working towards growth? [00:03:05] Sarah: Well, I think there's a few reasons that this could be the case. And one might be that people don't even know what a coach would do, right? Like, "how would a coach help me?" And some people might not even be aware that that's an option.  [00:03:22] Jason: Got it.  [00:03:22] Sarah: I wasn't for a very, very long time. Even when I was running my business, I didn't know, "Hey, there's people that will help you." [00:03:30] Jason: Okay. That's fair enough. So what cracked your mind open to the idea or possibility of coaching?  [00:03:38] Sarah: Well, honestly, it was you. You're really big on coaching. I had never had a coach in my life. Ever. And when you and I had moved in together, you are so big on coaching and you do a variety of different types and styles of working with coaches. [00:04:00] And some of it is mastermind style and some of it is one on one and some of it is event type. And I realized, "wow, this is really great." Like, I just did not make that connection and realization that there are people who genuinely want to help other people succeed in life and in business.  [00:04:21] Jason: So I want to clarify what you're saying. [00:04:26] Clarify something. Some people listening will hear, "Oh, Jason's into coaching. Yeah, we know he coaches people. That's what he does. It's what he's trying to sell." And what you're saying is you saw me getting coached.  [00:04:38] Sarah: Oh yes, working with coaches.  [00:04:39] Jason: Working with coaches, joining masterminds. Like I'm the student.  [00:04:43] Sarah: I knew what you did when obviously when I met you.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:46] Sarah: But I also saw you embody that and you work with a lot of coaches yourself. And in seeing you and the business, our business, work with coaches, that was something I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. That helps a lot." Because coaches, especially when you work with a coach that's been there, done that... because there's a lot of coaches that they don't really know. They're like, "well, this was a great theory." But when you work with a coach that has. done the thing and gotten the result and had that experience and now they can talk about it and they can share their experience and they can share their knowledge and they can say, "Hey, I tried this and it didn't work. So avoid this," and "Hey, this got me in some hot water, so definitely don't do that," And, "this was really successful and here's how I did it and here's why I did it this way. And I kept testing and refining." And then they can share that knowledge with you. And when I started experiencing that in DoorGrow, With the coaches that we worked with, that was something that I was like, "Oh, well, that would have been nice to know." [00:05:52] Jason: And Sarah learns super fast. Like I've always been super impressed by how quick you adopt new information or new ideas. Like most people I think it takes a while for people to absorb certain things, but some things you're just like, "yeah." And you're like, "let's do coaching." [00:06:05] And we've tried lots of different coaches out together. Like some not good.  [00:06:09] Sarah: Some are not good.  [00:06:10] Jason: Right. It's like a...  [00:06:12] Sarah: colossal waste of money.  [00:06:14] Jason: Some really good.  [00:06:15] Sarah: Some really good.  [00:06:16] Jason: Some we weren't ready for. We just like didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth to work with them.  [00:06:21] Sarah: Mm hmm.  [00:06:22] Jason: We just had so much going on. [00:06:23] Like we took on too much. Maybe we had too many coaches at a time, something like this. Right. Even right now, like I'm onboarding and I'm coaching and training two new sales team members, plus my son in learning setting and sales. But I went and got outside help. So I have a coach right now that's coaching me and them. [00:06:45] And then I'm spending each day coaching them, but each week we're meeting with a coach and he's an expert in sales and he's helping us go to another level and work on scripts and work on our communication, work on language. And that's been really helpful. I'm always leveling up my skills. [00:06:59] And I think it's important to never get comfortable. And I think for me, I just try to imagine like if I didn't have coaches or mentors and I'm every day trying to like coach people and sell coaching to me, that would feel like a gross lack of integrity. Feels like I'd be grossly out of alignment, and a lot of the coaches that we have, I found them through coaching programs that we were in with them. Right. And so I know that they believe in coaching and they're in integrity. And I know that they're in the areas, at least that I am seeking help in, they are ahead of me in that game. And and so I can trust them. [00:07:39] There's evidence they can help get results and they've given some value already. And so I'm like, "okay, I should, we should work with them." And I think that's one of the challenges. And so everybody out there, if you're like, " why am I not spending money on coaching or why don't I have a coach?" [00:07:52] I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think just as a side note, if you're going to get a coach, don't work with a coach that doesn't have a coach , right? If they went through one program one time, they're like, "I went through this coaching program and got a certificate one time." Then do they really believe in coaching? [00:08:10] No. They just believed in getting the appearance of being a good coach and they're not actually a coachable person. I believe in order to be able to coach others, you have to also be coachable and being able be able to learn. I learned a massive amount just by coaching, coaching clients and supporting them. [00:08:29] And so let's get into what people maybe are prioritizing instead of growth. If they're not growing. Because some people are listening to this and they're like, "well, I've been stuck at the same number of doors I've been at for like two, three years." So what priority might be off or what are they prioritizing that's different? [00:08:45] What might be off? What are some of the things they're prioritizing?  [00:08:48] Sarah: I think one of the big things is this need to control everything. And I understand because I am a control freak. I get it. And for a long, long time, I had always said, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." [00:09:08] So, why would I ask somebody else to do this thing, and then I'm just going to have to go check and see if they did it the right way? And "oh, they made a mistake, so now I have to... it's just easier and faster for me to just go and do it myself!" Right? Instead of teaching somebody or training somebody or just asking them to do it, but then really secretly I'm going to go and check and see if they actually did it. [00:09:28] So delegation for me was very hard for a very long time. Because I am very detail oriented, and very OCD, and very organized, and I'm very particular in how things get done. So, I believe there's a right way, and a wrong way to do just about every task that there is.  [00:09:49] Jason: Yeah, that's very, very INTJ thinking of you. [00:09:53] But I'm not incorrect. Most of the time, you're not, right? And so, if you want it done right, you do it yourself. Is that true? Sometimes, right? Like there's a lot of situations where that's true. The challenge is: could it be possible that if somebody else did it, it could be done better than you? [00:10:12] Right. That could be true too. And so I think getting a coach is you start to recognize where you might have gaps and the ultimate evidence is our results. If we're not getting the results that we want, then maybe we're not the person that should be doing that thing. Because we're not getting the results and we're doing it. [00:10:29] So it's us, right? But yeah, I think that's a belief that a lot of people have in the beginning. "I want it done right." And I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because "we want it done right" means "done according to my set of values." There's lots of different ways to do something and the outcome could be similar or could work or could be positive, but we have certain values that we want it done in a certain way to be the right way. [00:10:54] The right way. Yes. And INTJs very much feel there's a right way and a wrong way for everything. The challenge is a lot of times, if we're super rigid and believing we always have the right way, we can't see around corners. There's certain personality types, though, that can see a lot more opportunity and a lot more variety of options. [00:11:13] And they usually can crack those strong J's brains open, that are judging, to some new ideas and new possibilities. And eventually they'll adopt those, right? And so that's, I think where we have a nice balance in our relationship is you're usually right. A lot of things and very strategic brain and can figure stuff out and you're like, something's off here. [00:11:35] You're very intuitive. And and usually right when you're like, "something's not right here." And then also, I'm very good at seeing alternatives, other possibilities, and exposing you to some other options or some other ideas.  [00:11:48] Sarah: Yes. And you're also very good at human emotions.  [00:11:52] Jason: Oh. [00:11:52] Sarah: I'm not good at human emotion. [00:11:54] Jason: Right.  [00:11:55] Sarah: You're like, "well, you can't do that because it'll make people feel like this." And I'm like, "so?" [00:12:01] Jason: Yeah, yeah, this is a constant frustration. You're like, "why won't people just do what I told them to do when I just tell them one time in a very succinct way, exactly what I want?  [00:12:11] Sarah: Right? Like I have all the answers, just listen and then do what I tell you to do! That's it. Like, it's so easy. I feel like life would be so much easier if you just listen. [00:12:22] Jason: And so the one advantage, one of my maybe few advantages over you cognitively maybe is the idea that I can empathize a bit more with other people and I can figure out what would it take to get this installed into their brain? [00:12:38] What would make this digestible for them? What would make this palatable? What would make them able to adopt or absorb this idea or to remember this idea or for this to work? And you're like, "just tell them!" Because I can just tell you and you get it. And you'll get annoyed if I start to explain and use analogy. [00:12:53] Sarah: I got it, I got it.  [00:12:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Sarah: Give me the thing that I need.  [00:12:56] Jason: Those things are very effective. I got it. Other people.  [00:12:58] Sarah: And now I'm going to go and do it. That's how I work.  [00:13:01] I think other people work like that too, but sometimes they don't and it's crazy to me! I don't... crazy!  [00:13:07] Jason: So I think one of the things that people prioritize over growth sometimes is that self struggle. Like there's people that value doing it themselves. [00:13:17] Like even as a little kid, my daughter, Madi, I would try to tie her shoelaces and she didn't even know how to do it! And she would say, "no, I do it! I do it!"  [00:13:25] Like she wouldn't let me do it.  [00:13:26] Sarah: Hey Madi.  [00:13:27] Jason: Madi edits our podcast, so she'll see this. She wanted to do it. And I'd be like, "okay." [00:13:32] And she's just sitting there struggling. But she was determined and eventually she figured it out and eventually she might be frustrated enough to allow me to help her. Right? And sometimes we have to allow people to struggle, but a lot of times we're self struggling and it's self imposed and we're not having success in our business or success in growth or adding doors or making more money or retaining clients or whatever it might be. And we're so stuck on this idea of self struggle, which is DIY, right? "I'm going to do it myself." and I've been this guy. I'll watch YouTube videos. I'll read books. I will figure it all out on my own. [00:14:06] " I'm smart enough. I can do this." And what I want to say to everybody listening, that that's you. You're right. You're totally right. You are smart enough to figure everything out eventually, it's just going to take you probably a decade longer than somebody that goes and gets coaching or gets helped. And I've been that I've done that. [00:14:24] Jason: I've spent like a decade doing stupid stuff. I'm in my forties. I've spent at least a decade doing some things and struggling with some things before I got help with it. And the amount of time somebody that already has succeeded at this or knows what works can collapse for you in the experimentation, in the struggles, in the financial risks, in the time wasting is pretty significant, like dramatically significant. [00:14:48] I've had mentors... I have one mentor. I paid him three grand a month and it was the biggest expense ever. Like I signed up for this coach and I immediately was like in a short period of time was making 30 grand more a month. That's a pretty decent return. Right? And I would have been stupid to not have done that, but it was a calculated risk. [00:15:07] At the time I was in a dysfunctional marriage and my wife at the time cried when I told her I was spending three grand a month, and we've spent a lot more than three grand a month on some of our coaches and mentors.  [00:15:19] Sarah: At the time three grand was a lot and it was scary.  [00:15:21] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:15:22] That was my first dive into high ticket coach. Yes. Working with the coach.  [00:15:26] Sarah: Yes, and I think the other thing to point out too about working with someone else is that It's not always about, "well, I must be bootstrapped. I must do it myself. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it all. I don't need any help." [00:15:40] Sometimes it's not even that sometimes it's, you just think things are really good because we hear that sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes like, "Oh, things are pretty good in the business," but you don't know what you don't know.  [00:15:51] Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And you think, "well, if things keep going the way that they are right now, that's okay. Like, maybe it's not my dream situation, but I'm also not really hating my day to day. And I'm not in this massive struggle." So I'm like, "things are okay. So do I actually need help? And do I need to reach out and work with someone?" And a lot of times, even if you think things are pretty good, and " maybe I don't need help." And you're right. You maybe don't need help. Perhaps you just need help to see what else is possible for you. [00:16:31] Jason: And they may not need help. They may not need it. If you're smart and you have big goals and you want to move forward quicker, then maybe you would want it, right? You would desire it instead of feel like this needy energy, like, "Oh, I need this." I think that's sometimes what limits us is we don't want to feel like we need something. [00:16:48] We don't want to admit we need something because it's a gross energy to be needy or to need something. It almost feels victimy to some people. I think when we have goals and we know what we want and we see that other people can help us, it becomes a little bit more natural for us to be able to do that. [00:17:03] Sarah: And I also think, this is another gripe I have with our lovely education system, is that in school, you are taught, "do it on your own." [00:17:13] "Don't look at other people's. Don't cheat. Don't ask your neighbor." If you're stuck, you pretty much ask the teacher. Refer back to your lesson and figure it out. When you're taking a test, you can't go "hey Joe, I don't know what number 13 is. You know what number 13 is?" You're not allowed to do that.  [00:17:32] Yeah, like getting help is wrong.  [00:17:33] It's wrong, right! So just have it memorized and regurgitate it. So take the information in, memorize it, and vomit it back up on a piece of paper, and then I will give you a passing grade. In the middle of a test, are you able to raise your hand and say, "Hey teacher, I had a question. I'm stuck on this. I don't really understand this. Can you please help me arrive to the answer?" No! No, you cannot! So in school, they teach us the self reliance. And I do believe that that is a very positive thing in one way. And in another way, it hinders our growth. Because in business, you should rely on other people so that you can get better results and go farther faster.  [00:18:17] Jason: So I think also what school teaches us, the way school is set up is there's this one guru expert at the front of the room that we have to listen to all the time. [00:18:27] And so we learn to be reliant on the leader for all the answers. And sometimes the leader doesn't have them, right? Sometimes they don't know. Sometimes they have blind spots. Everybody's been a student when they've called their teacher out on something that was off or wrong, right? Or seen that happen, and they lose that credibility. And teachers just usually don't tolerate that very well. They don't like being seen as having flawed thinking. Having a wrong idea or being wrong. And so there's this sort of authoritarianism that's like involved in schools. It's like, trust the authority, trust the leader, be this blind, dumb beast and let them lead you around. And that's like the Bible and book of revelations talks about the mark of the beast and the hand and the forehead. And maybe it's just your thoughts and your labor just being controlled by outside unearned authority. And people should earn. their authority, right? I work with coaches because they've earned authority, not because they just told me like somebody like put a gun to my head or forced me or I was in a school system and they said I had to do it this way. [00:19:30] So I think the irony of self struggle or DIY is that A lot of you are frustrated and thinking "I've got to do everything myself," but then you are probably because of that energy that you are being and creating in the universe and just how you show up with other people, you probably are really triggered and really frustrated with all the people that you encounter that think they could do a better job themselves. [00:20:00] Because you have the same energy or problem as them, and so they trigger you. So if you're running, you're butting your head all the time with these DIY people in the industry, people that are trying to self manage their properties or people that are trying to micromanage really self manage through you to get you to do the work, it may be because you're carrying this belief of self struggle or doing it yourself. [00:20:22] So just something to chew on. So another challenge that I think why people don't spend money on coaching or what they're prioritizing maybe over growth is there might be prioritizing safety or ease or comfort. And so what do you have to say about that?  [00:20:38] Sarah: So you have to get uncomfortable if you want results. [00:20:42] If you want results that are different than what you're currently getting, you can't take the same actions you're taking now and expect to get different results. I think, isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:20:57] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. It stresses people out and makes you start to go crazy a little bit. That's a pretty painful. Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Now, everybody, as we age, we tend to move towards more and more comfort. [00:21:14] I saw a video the other day. I think it was Gary Brecka, this health guy. He said that after the age of 30, most people will never do another sprint again in their life.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Well, I don't want to sprint. If I'm sprinting, y'all better follow me because...  [00:21:27] Jason: right. That's what people are saying. Like, they're like, "yeah, I don't want to. That's uncomfortable. I don't want to be cold. I don't want to be too hot." Comfort is he like described as is what leads us towards death ultimately. We want to be comfortable. We don't go work out at the gym. We don't build muscle, which affects our cognitive functioning later in life. It makes our bones more brittle. We then have a broken bone and like like we're hospitalized till we die right in our later years if we don't do the right things And so we're always seeking comfort and ease, and when we're always seeking comfort and ease, we shift the weight towards others. We Become, what I would kind of phrase as a victim or a blamer. We're a victim. We blame other people. We're complaining about our circumstances constantly, right? [00:22:17] And instead of doing work or taking action or doing the things that are uncomfortable. And I think there's this stoic phrase that from, I don't know, one of the cool guys that is involved in stoicism or whatever, but the idea is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:22:34] And a lot of people, I think could go, "that's true." I've seen some people make some easy choices, choices towards comfort, choices towards ease and their life's pretty difficult because they've avoided doing the hard, uncomfortable things, having the hard, uncomfortable conversations with people they should have, doing work, working hard to get the outcomes and a life of greater ease and comfort, right? [00:22:55] And so I think if you prioritize ease and comfort over growth, what's going to happen?  [00:23:00] Sarah: Not much.  [00:23:01] Jason: Well, you're not going to grow, right? Because growth isn't necessarily about ease and comfort, right? And so, even in nature, if we take a fruit tree or a bush that produces some sort of, fruit, whatever, if we cut that, tree and trim it, it will then yield a bigger result. [00:23:19] And sometimes if it's overgrown, it can't even produce fruit very effectively because it's too busy feeding everything else, all the branches leaves. So trimming it allows it to produce more fruit. And we're similar in that we need some friction and some intentional discomfort in our life and action in order to produce or bear fruit, in order to get the things that we want in life. [00:23:42] Having uncomfortable conversations creates greater peace in our relationships. Being willing to take action in our business allows us to have more freedom, more revenue financially, and to be able to take care of our team and ourselves better. And so we can't be a victim and a blamer and complain about the market and complain about COVID and whatever your stupid excuses are, whoever's listening. [00:24:04] If you've got all your excuses why you're not growing, you can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. So which one would you rather choose? Right? And there's a lot of people that would rather choose their excuses because it allows them to not do anything. It allows them, "well, the market's tough, so I just might as well not do anything." [00:24:23] Like right now, real estate agents, some are like, "oh, real estate market's tough. Can't get deals." Right? And then there's people that are still closing a bunch of deals and making plenty of money. And so our beliefs and our mindset and how we prioritize things shifts things. And so are you prioritizing ease and comfort? [00:24:40] Sometimes it's not even about our own ease and comfort. Well, maybe it is. Sometimes people won't join a coaching program because their spouse doesn't want to spend the money or their business partner doesn't want the business to grow. We see that like they're an operator personality type. [00:24:54] They're not really focused on growth and they're like, "no, we have good, stable, residual income. Like why rock the boat? And I'm getting 50 percent of the revenue," or whatever I've seen. And they're like, "why change anything? Don't disrupt my comfort here." And the other person's like, "let's have more doors. Let's go crazy. I'm a visionary." [00:25:12] And the operator personality type's like, "yeah, but that would make my life worse. I don't need more money. I'm comfortable. Don't mess up my comfort." [00:25:21] And sometimes the business visionary, or if it's with your spouse, we're not having that uncomfortable conversation with them because it means rocking the boat. [00:25:31] It's uncomfortable. It means there might be a fight. It means you might get screamed at or get some angry emotion thrown at you. In some scenarios. And so I think it's really important to connect with deep down. Like, what do we really want? And what really should we be doing that we just know is right for us and being willing to step into that discomfort. I made some very uncomfortable choices in my day in order to get to where I'm at now. And sometimes it involved me having to look stupid in front of a group in a mastermind. Sometimes it involved me having to have uncomfortable conversations in relationships or even to end relationships. [00:26:10] That's super uncomfortable. In order to move forward and do what I felt I was called to do or what I felt deep down. What I think is also interesting is more people are a lot more comfortable with those that are willing to do uncomfortable things and speak uncomfortable words. [00:26:29] It makes everybody feel safer because they can trust that person. You can't trust people that are always focused on ease and comfort. I don't think they're as trustworthy of people because part of life in order to have integrity, in order to be honest, in order to work hard, in order to benefit the people that you have a fiduciary duty or responsibility to benefit like clients, you have to be willing to do the uncomfortable things. [00:26:53] Otherwise, you're shifting all the discomfort on to everybody else. "Everybody else around me has to be uncomfortable so I can have comfort." And that does not create great relationships, safety, or create a good client or business relationship in the longterm. So that's my soapbox about that. All right. [00:27:09] So, another reason people don't prioritize that they don't prioritize a growth is they might be looking at the short term. Maybe it's related to comfort. Maybe it's related to just, "I need to make sure I have cash now and they're giving up the longterm, maybe more cash later, maybe a bigger business later." Any thoughts about that?  [00:27:28] Sarah: This was your thing.  [00:27:29] Jason: I've run into this where I've talked to people and they're like, "well, I don't know. I don't have a lot of money right now," I think this is where you need to be willing to take a risk and bet on yourself. [00:27:37] Find a system that's proven. We've got plenty of case studies and results to show that our stuff works. It's all proven. It all works. What I find is the only real question people need to figure out is, are they willing to work? Do they trust themselves? Are they willing to bet on themselves? And a lot of people don't. [00:27:53] A lot of times we've struggled to even do the little things that we've told ourselves that we were going to do. And so we're out of integrity and we don't trust ourselves anymore. Like, "I'm going to work out at the gym tomorrow. I'm tired." Right. We've all done that. I've done that this week. Right. I did work out this morning though. But we've done that. We've all done that. And so it's the making these little movements of taking action towards our own integrity. Like I'm going to do this. And then I do it learning to trust ourselves again. And the one person you can control is you. And so when you have strong trust in yourself. [00:28:28] Very few things are supremely risky because you're betting on yourself, especially if you're getting support to become better. And so, it may be a cash investment now, but if you can see there's a system and you can see there's results, then maybe the risk is worth it. You should get an ROI if you do the right actions, if it's a proven system. So I think those are some of the things. So why don't we look at the reverse real quick, and then we'll wrap up.  [00:28:54] The reverse would be what are our clients like? What's different about our clients? What do they prioritize that made them decide to work with us? What are they prioritizing differently that said " why would I not spend money on coaching? I should totally do this."  [00:29:08] Sarah: Yeah. Well first I think they believe in their ability to do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Hmm.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Because if you don't believe in yourself, there's nothing that you're going to be able to do. No coach can help you. You've got to figure that out first. So they believe in themselves and they are also committed. [00:29:27] And I think that is something that sometimes people are lacking. It's, they're just lacking a actual true commitment.  [00:29:37] Jason: So commitment, I feel like is, maybe it's a choice, but I feel like it's also an outcome of choices, right? So what are they choosing to prioritize? You think that maybe makes them more committed? [00:29:49] Sarah: You're so cryptic today. You're like, " what are they choosing?" Like...  [00:29:52] Jason: well, I don't know, this is an interesting question I think to chew on.  [00:29:55] Sarah: What makes people more committed?  [00:29:56] Jason: Why are some people committed and some people are not? We're talking about priorities today, so I'm thinking, what are the priorities that they have that leads to being strongly committed? [00:30:05] Sarah: It's either you're in it or you're out. It's like a pool. You're either in the pool or you're out of the pool. Yeah. That's it. You, like, you're either wet or you're dry. That's it. You can't like, "well, I've got a toe in the pool." Like it doesn't work. It doesn't work in business. [00:30:19] And if you're finding that, "well, like I have my foot in the pool a little bit, I'm going to pull it out if I have to pull it out," that business will forever be hard. You have to either go all the way in or go all the way out. Because if you're in the middle, it is difficult and it will remain difficult. [00:30:37] Jason: Yeah. It's really painful to be in between.  [00:30:40] Sarah: So either jump in the pool or jump out of the pool. Neither one is wrong.  [00:30:45] You might go, "I hate this pool. I don't like it." Great. Then find a different pool.  [00:30:50] Jason: So in chewing on this, I think in looking at myself when I'm fully committed to something, it's because I have prioritized the outcome. [00:31:00] The outcome is clear enough and important enough and motivating enough that I will do whatever it takes to get that outcome. That's when I'm fully committed to something. I'll do whatever it takes to get that outcome because I know what I want. That's one of the things is our clients know what they want. [00:31:17] Like they know that there's outcomes that they want. You mentioned, they believe in their ability to do it, to learn, to take action. And so they are a hundred percent committed. If you're committed to something and you don't know how to do it, you'll figure it out because you'll do whatever it takes. [00:31:34] You will struggle. You'll do go through trial and error. You'll fail. You'll make mistakes. And I think that's another thing is our clients believe in their own themselves enough to be willing to make mistakes. Whereas some people prioritize not looking bad or not making mistakes. And so they don't take the action. [00:31:51] They were like, "I need it all to be perfect and to know how to do everything before I do it because I don't want to be embarrassed or look stupid." And so I think some of our most successful clients are willing to just try stuff. They're just willing to do it. They don't have this need that they have to look so smart or whatever. [00:32:07] And sometimes those people struggle the most, right? Sometimes they are super smart, but they have to look good and look smart all the time. So I think in short, our clients prioritize growth, they prioritize learning, they prioritize taking risks, experimenting, and this is why they are able to move forward. [00:32:26] So hopefully this episode helps you reassess some of your own priorities. Like if you're not getting the results, make a list of what your priorities are and figure out like "what am I prioritizing currently that's leading to my current results?" Because if you can't see that, then you can't change it. [00:32:40] And as soon as you can see it and you shift your priorities, "well, I need to start prioritizing this." Maybe you need to start prioritizing action. Maybe you need to start prioritizing your health more. Maybe you need to start prioritizing learning more. Whatever it is, in order to get the outcomes that you want. [00:32:55] But if you're not getting the outcomes you want, your priorities are off. And hopefully this is an opportunity and an invitation for you to introspectively figure that out. And I hope that was beneficial.  [00:33:05] If you're struggling with any of this and you want some help getting clarity figuring out your priorities figuring out what you need to do in order to grow, you have a blind spot, you can't see it... like you need some external perspective, we all have problems we can't see. [00:33:20] And if you're not getting the results, you lack some knowledge. You lack some insight. And so reach out to us at DoorGrow. One of our growth consultants can help you figure this out, help you figure out where you might be stuck, what you need to get to the next level. [00:33:33] And you probably have some garbage or junk beliefs that are preventing you from being able to take things to the next level. And once those are out of the way, you're golden, right? So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:33:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:34:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

DoorGrow Live 2024 is upon us! If you have been in the property management space for a little while now, you're probably familiar with DoorGrow Live.  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah explain how this year's is expanding upon previous DoorGrow Live events. This year's theme focuses on creating opportunity in times of uncertainty. Be there May 17-18 in Round Rock, TX. You'll Learn [01:20] DoorGrow Live, the property management event you don't want to miss [03:58] 2024: Creating Opportunity Through Uncertainty [05:48] Using these hectic times to your advantage [07:07] First glance at DoorGrow Live topics [08:32] Networking with growth-minded people Tweetables “The market is very uncertain right now, but that is such a great opportunity to do something with it.” “It's not hard to step up and showcase leadership and become a leader in times of crisis.” “There's all sorts of craziness that's going to be happening, and this is a big opportunity for you to get more market share to get more investments.” “This is how some of the largest companies were built were during like recessions or depressions or time periods where they decided to double down and to focus on growth instead of scale back and be a fearful like everybody else. This is when winners are made.”   Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: This is when winners are made. And so we want our clients and those that are close to us and attending DoorGrow Live to be those that capitalize and succeed in this industry.  [00:00:11] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager.  [00:00:29] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:49] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull the founder and CEO of DoorGrow and the operator COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:13] And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:16] All right, we'll get that figured out eventually. [00:01:18] I always love it.  [00:01:19] Okay. So what we're going to be talking about today is what, Sarah?  [00:01:24] Sarah: DoorGrow Live  [00:01:25] Jason: DoorGrow live. DoorGrow Live! Yeah, so DoorGrow Live is our premier conference that we do once a year and it's pretty great. [00:01:35] So what do we want to say about it?  [00:01:37] Sarah: All right. So let's get them some of the information first. You can get all of this information at DoorGrowlive.Com. So that's the first thing is Just go to doorgrowlive.Com. Everything is on there except for our agenda, which we have not yet released. [00:01:53] We've got so much good stuff planned for you guys, but we're keeping the agenda a little close right now. So the dates for the event. It's a Friday and Saturday. It's May 17th and 18th, and it's in North Austin, Texas. The city is actually Round Rock, but no one knows where that is, so North Austin, Texas. [00:02:13] Okay, and where are we holding it this year?  [00:02:17] Jason: It's going to be at the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock, Texas So this is a really cool resort. it's really large and it's brand new. It's just built in the last several years.  [00:02:28] Sarah: 2020? Bad launch date.  [00:02:30] Jason: Yeah, they launched it not knowing there was going to be a pandemic.  [00:02:33] Sarah: Yeah, I think they opened and then the whole world shut down. [00:02:36] Jason: Yeah. And they have I believe the United States' largest indoor water park. It has this big indoor water park. Which could be fun. Yeah. If you're into that, or you can bring the kiddos maybe with you, but and it has several good restaurants and it's right in the heart of Round Rock. [00:02:51] Round Rock is just such a cute, cool town. The downtown area is really cool. There's all sorts of, great little restaurants and, bars and whatever you're into. So it's a fun little area and you're just hop, skip, and jump to get to downtown Austin. It's, Flying into Austin, one of the easiest, best airports. [00:03:09] I love being close to be able to get places through that airport.  [00:03:13] Sarah: Yeah. And they have a lot of flights. Yeah. They really do. They have flights from everywhere. So it's very central. It's easy to get on into. And the airport is really great.  [00:03:22] Jason: And then it's a quick drive over to the Kalahari resort where you can book your room and stay. And we've got a special group rate for you there so.  [00:03:30] Sarah: We do.  [00:03:31] Jason: We negotiated, so.  [00:03:33] Sarah: We do. Jason's assistant Mar, she always negotiates really great deals for you guys. If you want to just go ahead and book, you can, but if you'd rather get the discounted room rate, go to doorgrowlive.Com and then click on the link to register. [00:03:48] And that will help you get registered for the event and it will help you book your room at the discounted room rate. So that way you can get... I like saving money. I like it. It's great for me.  [00:03:59] Jason: All right. So what else do we want to tell them about DoorGrow Live?  [00:04:02] Sarah: Oh, okay. So this year's theme is going to be Creating Opportunity Through Uncertainty. [00:04:09] It's a weird year. So I really don't know what's happening with the market. There's a lot of talk. Is it going up? Is it going down? Are interest rates going to change? What's happening with property management? Right now it's a little bit harder to rent things out, whereas before, you could find a tenant in about a week or two. [00:04:26] And now that has changed and slowed down. And I'm hearing from some people that they're worried about their competitors or new companies are popping up that want to leverage AI and All kinds of technology and not have a lot of humans involved and, all the good stuff. So it's just a weird year and the market is very uncertain right now, but that is such a great opportunity to do something with it. [00:04:52] So we want to talk with you guys about how you can actually grow your company right now. This is not going to be well, "Hey, this might be relevant in three years if the market does this," this is relevant right now. So we're going to talk about actual strategies that you can implement today.... the day after the conference... if you attend. [00:05:09] And that you can just immediately implement them and start growing because we have some really amazing things planned for this conference.  [00:05:18] Jason: One of the things that I've noticed over the last several events that we've done and our plans for this one, just to give you a little bit of a teaser is we have a focus on those that want to be involved as investors. [00:05:32] And most property managers are investors and they're serving investors. And so some of the people are bringing in some of the conversations we're going to be having are how did structure, creative deals especially in this environment where we've got high interest rates and things are a little crazy. [00:05:48] And what Sarah said is true. 2024 is an election year, right? Every time there's an election cycle, the most powerful people and decision makers that control our lives to some degree start making things crazy. And there's opposing sides and it gets wild. So there's a lot of uncertainty that happens every election cycle. [00:06:06] Look at 2020, look at four years before that, look at 2024. There's all sorts of craziness that's going to be happening, and this is a big opportunity for you to get more market share to get more investments. There's going to be a big opportunity, I think, for you to establish yourself as a leader in the marketplace, and it's not hard to step up and showcase leadership and become a leader in times of crisis, like during the pandemic. And there's people that failed during that. And there's people that succeeded during that and made a lot of money. And we want to make sure you're prepared because there's patterns to this. [00:06:42] This is how some of the largest companies were built were during like recessions or depressions or time periods where they decided to double down and to focus on growth instead of scale back and be a fearful like everybody else. This is when winners are made. And so we want our clients and those that are close to us and attending, DoorGrow Live to be those that capitalize and succeed in this industry. [00:07:07] Sarah: So I'm not saying that this is definitely going to happen. I'm just saying that there's a pretty good chance that we might be talking about things like some creative ways to structure deals. Maybe some seller finance stuff, maybe some subject 2, maybe looking at your portfolio to see if any of your investors start to panic sell. [00:07:32] If you can capitalize on those opportunities, we might be looking at your profitability. We might be talking about some different business models and growth engines. There's just a chance that those are some of the things that we might talk about, being that we're not releasing the full agenda yet  [00:07:50] Jason: Okay, so yeah, there's gonna be some cool stuff Some of the things we might be talking about is a lot of people have been really curious about how we've been Able to make millions and millions of dollars leveraging Social media, and it's not something I usually want to share because I feel like it's a distraction in a lot of instances, but there are some ways to do this. [00:08:12] That can make you money as a property manager. And so there might be some conversation around some of that and how to leverage AI and some of the tools we use a DoorGrow to collapse time and cost on getting out to all the social media platforms. And so Yeah, there's several other things that we can tease, but it's going to be a really great event. [00:08:32] I think the best part about DoorGrow events that's really different from every other property management conference that I've been around or attended is the type of people that are there. They're just, they're a different crowd. The DoorGrow crowd is a different crowd. These are growth minded people. [00:08:47] These are contribution focused people. These are people that want to make a difference. These are people that are experiencing a different level of mindset, a different level of freedom and fulfillment in their business. These are property managers that actually enjoy what they get to do. This is what we do with clients. [00:09:02] We get them to the point where they're enjoying their day to day. And we've gotten all of the uncomfortable stuff onto other people's shoulders on their teams. And so we're really good at helping our clients get out of the cycle of suck, getting out of the day to day suck of stress and overwhelm. This is not a conference where everybody shows up and they just want to go hang out at the bar and pretend it's a vacation and get wasted. [00:09:25] Right. And if that's you, sorry, if I offended you, go do that. That's if that's what you need.  [00:09:30] Sarah: Do that after the event.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah, sure.  [00:09:32] Sarah: Go drink in the water park.  [00:09:33] Jason: Go do that. You can't.  [00:09:35] Sarah: I think there's a bar in there.  [00:09:36] Jason: I don't know. Maybe. But our clients are there to connect. They're there to get to the next level. [00:09:41] They have a growth mindset. And they're there to network. And so the connections made at these events are some of the biggest game changers. People are making friends. And if you want to be part of a community, if you want to come just taste some of the DoorGrow magic in person and see what's DoorGrow about? How is this different? [00:10:00] Why aren't they going to all of these other conferences and doing what everybody else is doing? How are they unique? Come experience it, come see it, and we'll share some things with you. And you'll get to talk to people that are having phenomenal growth. People that are like startups that are adding a hundred doors in like six months, like people that are adding two, 300 doors a year without spending any money on advertising, like this is real stuff that our clients are doing. [00:10:24] And you can come rub shoulders with some amazing people. I think that's the thing about DoorGrow is we, I think are attracting the cream of the crop, the best people in the industry, people with the strongest and healthiest mindset, people that are attracted to growth minded people. If you want to be around growth minded people in this industry that are doing innovative and new things like this is the place to be is DoorGrow Live. [00:10:47] So go to doorgrowlive.Com right now, get your tickets. We do have limited availability. This is not a massive event yet. And we have, we sold out. We've sold out at these events. If you want to get your spot, I recommend get in now because we know what you're going to do. [00:11:05] Sarah: What happens at every event is we always have more people and then they're like, "can we just grab a chair and maybe put it in the back? Like I'll stand in the back. I don't care." And that has happened at the last three of our events where we've had more people try to show up. [00:11:20] Jason: And then you stress out my assistant Mar and  [00:11:24] Sarah: I'm like just grab them a chair take a chair from the lobby I don't care make it happen  [00:11:28] So let's make sure that you have a place at a seat at the table. [00:11:32] Let's do that.  [00:11:33] Jason: Yeah get make sure that you get your tickets early get your tickets soon.  [00:11:38] Sarah: There's early bird tickets on sale right now.  [00:11:40] Jason: Oh, Yeah, so at the time of this recording there are early bird tickets for sale So if you're watching this live right now, or you see this soon There are early bird tickets and the tickets we're not trying to make this some crazy profit center The tickets early bird tickets are what 197? [00:11:57] They're 197  [00:11:59] Sarah: 197!  [00:12:00] Jason: And what does the room cost?  [00:12:02] Sarah: It's probably somewhere around two to three hundred.  [00:12:04] Jason: We're not trying to make this some big expensive thing.  [00:12:06] We probably make $0 off the whole event.  [00:12:10] Sarah: Oh yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: It costs us a lot of money to put these events on, but for us, it creates community...  [00:12:14] Sarah: It's an investment that we're willing to make so that we can do cool things in the industry and for our clients and for those who are just interested in being better and leveling up their business and their life. [00:12:28] Jason: Okay, cool.  [00:12:28] Sarah: So go to DoorGrow Live, grab your early bird tickets. You can do it after the early bird sale too or wait longer, which I'm cool with. Do it now. If you want the sale do it now. And. You'll get there's a whole section on there with frequently asked questions, all of the information that you need is on there, but if you've got any additional questions, just ping us, reach out to us, you can really reach us just about anywhere and our team will be able to help you and answer your questions. [00:12:55] And then I will also say we still have a few spots. I don't know, exactly how many right now I'll confirm for sure for VIP I want to say there's at least four left right now, and that is tentative, but at three or four, maybe spots left at this point for the VIP. So if you're interested in upgrading to VIP, again, you can do this at doorgrowlive.Com. There's a button that says upgrade to VIP. And if you upgraded VIP then on I think day two, you'll go to lunch. We'll do a little VIP lunch. You'll be able to have lunch with all of the speakers at the event.  [00:13:34] Jason: And us.  [00:13:34] Sarah: And yes, and me and Jason our team is going to be there and you'll get priority seating at the event. [00:13:41] Jason: Cool. Yay. All right. Okay. That's it. Go to doorgrowlive.Com and until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:13:49] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:14:16] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Property management entrepreneurs… how many hats are you currently wearing? It's easy for business owners to get stuck doing things they don't actually enjoy doing. Property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about how to get out of the roles you don't enjoy and into the roles you do. You'll Learn [03:17] The myth of wanting to clone yourself [07:51] The pros of a great hiring system [13:46] Which hat do you take off first? [17:58] Next steps Tweetables “That you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur.” “A generalist that's good at everything is never the best.” “For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.” “If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrowers, to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:03] Now let's get into the show. All right, so we released a funny video. So if you have not seen any of our funny videos, we put out quite a few of these. We have a whole playlist of them on YouTube. You can go to youtube.com/doorgrow and go to our playlist and look for our playlist of funny videos. Our newest funny video that we released is all about hats. [00:01:28] It's got a whole bunch of hats and it's silly, and I'm putting on different hats, and so if you want to laugh at me. Go check that out. we thought we would talk about this idea today. So what's the idea?  [00:01:40] Sarah: So the idea is are you wearing too many hats, aka are you filling too many roles in your property management business?  [00:01:50] Jason: All right, so when you first start out, you have to wear every hat, right? [00:01:55] You do everything in the business because it's all on you. You're like, "Oh, let me send that over to my maintenance coordinator... who's me. And let me get that over to my bookkeeper... who is also me. And Oh, my receptionist will answer my calls for me today because that's me." What are some of the hats that property managers are wearing. [00:02:15] Sarah: There's so many of them. Let's see. There's maintenance coordinator, a leasing agent, there's usually the bookkeeper, whoever's going to handle finances, there's of course the CEO who's going to set the vision of the company, there's the operator who's going to do things on the backend, there's the salesperson or the BDM, there's usually like a property manager, there's sometimes assistant property managers... As companies grow, they sometimes get tenant coordinators or client coordinators like just to handle like tenant or client communications. But when you start out, like all of this is usually you. [00:02:55] Jason: One of the things that I hear a lot from early stage entrepreneurs, people that are just getting started is they're like, "I just need to clone myself. I just need to find somebody else. Just like me." And so this is the big mistake that everybody makes initially in hiring. It's everybody does it like we all go and try and find somebody like ourselves. [00:03:15] That's what we think hiring is. We think hiring is cloning ourselves. The challenge with that is that the clone myth, as I call it, the reality is that you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur. You need a different person for each hat. [00:03:32] Because if you find somebody that is as adaptable as you and that can do everything like you and is driven like you, guess what they're going to do? They're going to do what you did and they're going to leave and go start their own company. I've seen this over and over again where people hire a clone and the clone does exactly what a clone would do. They become like you and they leave and sometimes take your clients and start their own business and become your competition. And so we don't want to fall prey to the clone myth. We want to find specialists that we can give pieces of what we do or hats to that are really good at that particular hat and a generalist that's good at everything is never the best. [00:04:17] You are not the best at every role. You probably think, "nobody else could do it as good as me." This is the other belief that early stage entrepreneurs say. "Nobody else can do it as well as me. I might as well do it myself." And that's a trap. It's a trap that keeps you doing everything forever. And if you believe that, then that means you will by default be comfortable getting crappy team members that are worse than you at these hats. [00:04:42] Because if you believe that you're the best and nobody else could be better than you, then you will go hire people and you will tolerate people that are worse than you at these particular roles. And then you'll be frustrated and I have a team of people that are better at their particular roles than I would be and this gives me a lot of confidence being able to let go of stuff. Like Sarah is way better at the details way better operations way better at putting things together. Like you've significantly improved the business and she's better at all of those things than I am and there's things that I'm better at than Sarah, but that allows me to stay in those areas I get to stay in those areas where I am better at those things than Sarah and then we have different team members Adam, and Mar, and they're all better at their particular tasks than I would be. [00:05:31] Sarah: Or I would be. Yeah.  [00:05:33] Absolutely. And that's what you want, is you want someone who is better at whatever this is than you are, especially if you don't enjoy it. So if you've got things in your business that you're holding on to and you think, "oh, I'll just never find somebody who loves maintenance coordination. Like who on the world would love to do that job because it's horrible?" Somebody will love it. [00:05:59] Somebody who likes details and organization and they like having a plan and a structure and a system. There are people who function that way and they really enjoy that. And it's so funny because Jason was like, "for every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role." And it's true. It's really true.  [00:06:22] Jason: That's a good point because early stage entrepreneurs also believe that because they hate doing something like if you hate maintenance coordination, you're like, "man, if I never have to do another maintenance escalation or talk to a tenant again, I'd be so happy." [00:06:37] A lot of times entrepreneurs believe that means nobody else would like it either. It's really a self centered, self centric view to believe that the rest of the world are like you. They're not. Like one of my mentors would say, there are people out there that like changing bedpans, you know? [00:06:52] And I've said that to some people that were nurses or something like that. And they're like, "yeah, I do. I feel like I'm helping them."  [00:06:58] And I'm like, "that's great. I wouldn't want to do that.  [00:07:00] Sarah: Like Evelyn, she says, "I don't like the changing of the bedpans, but I do like that when I do that, I know that I'm helping somebody who can't do it for themselves." [00:07:07] Jason: Yeah. And so she's happy to do it.  [00:07:10] Sarah: You can't pay me enough money in this world to change a bedpan.  [00:07:13] Jason: There is not enough money in this entire universe. That's my sister in law. And yeah that's wild. And so I want everyone listening to believe that there are people out there that can do the things that are your minus signs. [00:07:26] You can find people that's their plus signs and they will do it better than you. If you believe there are people out there that can do it better than you, there's a lot of dinosaur bosses. This is how you know you're a dinosaur boss. If you're the person that just believes everybody in the younger generation is terrible and there's no good hires out there available and nobody wants to work, then guess what you're going to find and attract when you go onto your job search? [00:07:51] There are great people out there. And if you build a really good hiring process, you can find and attract them. But the great people don't want to work for a dinosaur boss, like somebody that just believes that 'if I pay you, you should just do it and you should just like it and just suck it up.' [00:08:06] Because that's not very inspiring and people have options nowadays. They don't have to stay at a job very long. They can go work elsewhere. And the way that we retain team members is we create a culture of people that all share the same vision, same mission to transform property management, business owners. [00:08:23] And because we hire specialists and hire people that are really dialed in personality wise for that particular role that we know they can be great at it. And because each of our team members are great, it creates this sense of mutual respect on the team. Everybody on our team likes each other. Yeah. And they respect each other. [00:08:42] And in our daily huddles, they're like celebrating each other and sharing, like pointing out how awesome different team members were because they can see that these team members are really good at the things they do and it's things they're not good at or wouldn't want to have to do.  [00:08:57] Sarah: Morgan just said, I think, when she came back from leave, I was catching up with her. And then she was on some coaching calls with clients and she shared part of it with me. And I just had this conversation with one of our clients, and she said, "everybody on our team. I love them. Like I really like these people. I work with them every day, but I really enjoy working with them." And she said, "if anybody on the team came to me with any task and said, 'Hey, like I could really use your help on this.'" She says, "I would do it in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even flinch. I would do it in a heartbeat and I would want to do it because I care about these people and I want to help them."  [00:09:34] Jason: And that's because we've created a culture initially entirely around what I want. Like I as the visionary gets to set the culture of the company and I created values and everything. [00:09:47] Now, when Sarah became an owner, we took a fresh look at them. And we revisit them and then I don't think we really changed much.  [00:09:55] Sarah: No, we didn't. I gave her an opportunity to have input, but... [00:09:59] would you, if I wasn't a value match, would you have brought me into the company? You wouldn't have hired me, but nevermind ownership of the company. You don't give ownership of a company to somebody that's like not a culture.  [00:10:10] Jason: If you weren't a value match, we probably wouldn't be married. And so this is the thing. There's a lot of couples in property management. I've noticed we get a lot of couple clients, husband and wife teams. [00:10:21] And it's very typical that the husband is more visionary, sales, wild, cowboy, entrepreneur and that the wife is like stable, crusher of all hopes and dreams, just kidding, grounded, practical, make sure everything works operator personality type. Yeah.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Sometimes we do see, they're like, "we're going to do this crazy big thing!" [00:10:41] And operators were like, "we can't afford that. Cool, but that sounds really insane. So what can we actually do and how can we actually make it happen?" So like we are the ones who make sure that things happen instead of just,  [00:10:57] Jason: yeah.  [00:10:57] Sarah: We're not the crusher of the dreams. [00:10:58] We're the dream makers.  [00:11:00] Jason: They're the dream. Yeah. They bring it into reality. The "maker-happeners". ,  [00:11:04] That's good. That's really good.  [00:11:05] Sarah: It's so good. Madi's going to laugh so hard when she's editing this. She's going to go, "that's not a word."  [00:11:10] Jason: Maker-happeners.  [00:11:11] Sarah: The word now, Madi.  [00:11:13] Jason: This is my Maker-happener. [00:11:15] And yeah, we've got this mutual respect that exists on the team, and if you don't like your team, be honest. If your team increases your pressure and noise, if they stress you out, if you are frustrated at your team members, you have the wrong team and it's your fault. You created it, you allowed it, and you kept these people because you probably thought that's just how business works or that's what's available.  [00:11:40] Sarah: Even if you're like, "Oh no, I like everybody," but does everybody like everybody else? Because if your team doesn't like each other, how quick do you think they're going to be to really jump in and help the other one? Because everybody needs help at some point. [00:11:52] Like deadlines come and things happen or whatever. Like summer happens and we're like, "Oh my God! I thought like I had more time on this and all these leases are due. Can somebody help me?" There is going to be a point in which someone on your team needs help from somebody else that doesn't usually do that thing. [00:12:07] And if they don't like each other, they're not going to help each other. They're going to go, "Oh yeah, look at Susie. She can't even do her own job."  [00:12:14] Jason: Yeah. If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem. If you've got you may have team members that secretly don't even like you and you may not know it, but you can tell. You can feel it. [00:12:25] Most employees probably here in the U. S., that standard American employee doesn't really like their job. They just want safety and certainty. They want stability. They're not there because it's giving them a sense of fulfillment, freedom, contribution, support. It's like the best thing and they love it. [00:12:41] So that means they're B players. A players are what we have on our team at DoorGrow. B players are what one of my mentors called hiders. Their secret goal if they were really honest would be to do as little work as possible, get paid as much as possible, and then they go and complain about you and live for the weekend. [00:13:02] And so if they love the weekend way more than they love their day-to-day, there's probably a problem. Like you want team members that are like, "man, I'm really excited. I love getting to do what I get to do." If I didn't have the role that I have or get to do what I get to do, I would feel probably lost, depressed, and bored out of my mind. [00:13:23] I love getting to do what I get to do. And my guess is that most of the people on my team would probably feel that same way. If they just had nothing to do. So I don't know, maybe there's some that would love to just not work ever a day in their life. I don't know. But for me, that would be crazy. [00:13:39] Sarah: Not anymore.  [00:13:40] Jason: So what else can we talk about related to getting rid of these hats? Because in the beginning they're wearing every hat. How did they decide which had to get off first?  [00:13:49] Sarah: What are the things that you like? Because those are the things you should keep. [00:13:54] And not just "Oh, that's annoying," or like "it's okay, but I don't love it." The things that you really don't like, the things where, like for me it was talking to tenants, that was what it was for me, and sales. I hated sales. I hated doing sales. I was really good at it, but I just, I hated it. Look at, the things that you do and the things that you like, you tend to get them done pretty quickly. Yeah, if you like going through emails. You're going to do that and there's going to be very little friction there. [00:14:23] No one's going to have to say "Oh, did you check your email?" But if you hate going through emails and you're like, "oh my god. Like why is email even a thing? I don't even know why we have to do this," You're going to procrastinate. Yeah. It's going to build up and you're probably not the right person to be doing it. [00:14:41] Jason: Yeah. If there's anything that's been on your to do list for more than a month, it's probably because you are not the person that should be doing it. That's a pretty big clue. One of the big mistakes I see people make when getting their initial hire is they try and find team members to wear multiple hats. [00:14:57] They're like, "I'm going to get an appointment setter slash assistant."  [00:15:02] Sarah: My favorite is, "my operator is also going to do sales for me."  [00:15:05] Jason: Oh yeah.  [00:15:06] Sarah: No, they're not.  [00:15:08] Jason: And why that's a problem is these are opposite personality types. If we're picking people that are two different personality types. If we're giving them a role that's two different personality types, then we are setting them up for some sort of failure. [00:15:21] And they're not going to really do well at the one that is not their personality type. And so we need to make sure we're not throwing multiple hats onto a person. We're trying to offload multiple hats that are different personality types. It's not going to work. We need specialists that are the right personality for the role. [00:15:39] So at DoorGrow, we are experts on matching the right personality types, knowing the personality types that you need for particular roles. There's a certain personality type for a BDM, for an operator, for a receptionist, for maintenance coordinator, property manager, leasing agent. [00:15:54] There's certain personality types that are good at these. And if you hire based on skill, you will miss the personality. And so hiring based on personality and based on culture are more important for the team and for the role. So usually the first person that we recommend in our DoorGrow code that most entrepreneurs get initially to get the most leverage would be an assistant. [00:16:19] Like maybe around 50 units, you should have your own assistant. But we've got clients that come to us with hundreds of doors and they still don't even have an assistant for themselves. They just keep hiring to take care of the business while not taking care of themselves. So they're not really taking hats off or giving up stuff. [00:16:35] They're just helping the business out. And so they end up more and more stressed the bigger the team gets. So a big piece of this is you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and the way we help our clients get clarity on themselves in clarity on what are their minus signs versus their plus signs, what they, what drains them versus what gives them energy is by doing a time study. [00:16:57] And this gives them a lot of clarity on how do I get to the next level? How do I offload the negative things so that I can spend more time in my area of genius and wearing the hats that I want to wear? And then we build out job descriptions and et cetera. So we have this whole process for taking entrepreneurs through to give them a lot of clarity. [00:17:14] Then later. Maybe around 200 plus the most important hire that you will ever make in the business will be to get an operator. If your spouse is already an operator, then you already have the most important person that you will ever bring into the business on your team, which is amazing and awesome. This person needs to be very intelligent. [00:17:34] They need to be sharp. They need to be driven to getting systems and processes dialed in. They want to see the business succeed. They handle all the details. They make everything work and they make sure that the team makes everything work. And this allows you to spend more time in the visionary role or in the sales role or whatever it is as a visionary entrepreneur that you really enjoy. [00:17:55] All right. Anything else related to hats?  [00:17:58] Sarah: So I think if you're listening to this and you're going, "yeah, but I'm still doing all this stuff and I would like to offload that, but I don't think I have the money to offload that," because this is what we hear next is, "yeah, that would be great, but I can't afford it. I can't afford to hire, two or three or eight people."  [00:18:18] Jason: So we have processes for this, but we have to back you out of the corner. You've painted yourself into, so first we do need to get you clarity on what you do enjoy and what would make you more money because it doesn't make sense to go get somebody if you could create more leverage, right? And so sometimes it's about creating more leverage related to time right now. So we have processes for helping you get even more done. Like one of my clients did a time study and recently and said that he had found that he was spending an hour after three o'clock, he was spending an hour to get things done that took him 10 minutes in the morning. [00:18:56] And so part of it is just clarity on your circadian rhythm, your time, like your energy, whether you're getting good enough sleep. So we worked on some hacks to increase his brain's bandwidth so that he could do more later in the day and get a lot more done. This may triple the output of what he can accomplish. [00:19:15] Then we have processes like daily planning time studies. We have these different things that help you get more yield from your day. We have a training called the priorities training. It talks about how Sarah was able to run her business with over 60 percent profit margin with only one part time person up to 260 units. [00:19:34] Which is crazy. They add units too.  [00:19:36] Yeah. C class properties. Yeah. In a rough area. Yeah. And she was able to reduce a lot of the communication, a lot of the friction and systematize the business so that it could run very efficiently. And so we train clients on how to do that. We get people come to us and they're like, "I'm burnt out at 50 units." [00:19:55] Sometimes they're like, "I'm stuck at a hundred units. Like I just can't handle anymore." And you can. There's ways of making this easier.  [00:20:04] Sarah: But you can't give nothing changes, right? So if everything stays the same, you're right. You can't, but you need to make some changes probably to yourself and in your business. [00:20:15] And then all of a sudden it will allow more space and you'll be able to add on more units.  [00:20:21] Jason: This is where good coaching comes in is we can help you get more yield from your day, create more bandwidth so that you can spend more time growing the business. We give you the strategies to grow. You make more money. [00:20:32] So a lot of times clients come to us in that scenario. I'm like, "let's create some space and then let's get you focusing on revenue generating stuff. Let's get you making a lot more money. And then let's make sure we hire what you actually need most. So you can spend more time making more money because then you're making smart, strategic moves when you hire. Instead of just hiring what the business needs, which can be really expensive if you make mistakes. And if you get any bad hires, we have a really great hiring system called DoorGrow hiring. One bad hire is going to cost you minimum 10 grand because you're going to spend probably at least three months on them of pay, there's a certain amount of money they're going to cost you and you're going to lose out on because they weren't generating revenue or helping to keep revenue. So there's a lot like bad hires are one of the most expensive and costly things you can do and it eats up your time, which is the most valuable resource in the business. [00:21:24] When you're onboarding and training somebody that's never going to be good at it. And so we can help with that as well, helping you get really good team members and collapse time on hiring. We've helped companies replace entire teams, cut their staffing costs in half like overnight, she does this stuff and and build out really good hiring systems and processes so that you can get people quickly and scale quickly as you're adding doors. [00:21:49] We have the stuff to help with all of that.  [00:21:51] Sarah: We do. Cool. If you're hearing this and you're like, "man, that would be really nice, then you should reach out. Contact us. Get on a call. Go to doorgrow.Com. You can see what we're all about, what we do. You can book a call. If you're like, "hey, this is for me and I'm ready to go right now," cool. [00:22:06] Sign up. Join our mastermind and you'll have some awesome coaches to support you.  [00:22:10] Jason: Yeah. Some of you listening are feeling really stressed out. Every business owner has been there. Some of you listening have felt really stuck. [00:22:19] It's just things aren't moving forward. You can't figure out why the marketing stuff isn't working. You're not really adding doors. You're not getting ahead. You're getting stressed. You're getting burnt out. You probably cannot see yourself doing this for five more years. And you need to reach out for help. [00:22:36] One of the most difficult things for entrepreneurs to do in especially early stage entrepreneurs is to humble ourselves. To be humble and to realize we could use some help and ask for help. We just we always think we can handle it all ourselves, like we've got it. "If I just watch enough youtube videos or try and get enough free stuff I can figure out." Or "if I just work hard enough I can save a dollar and do it myself or if I read enough books..." and so our goal at DoorGrow is to help you collapse time and make a lot more money. You can probably figure it all out, and I've seen people work really hard at doing this, but it will probably take you a decade to figure it all out. Whereas we could probably help you figure it out in a small fraction of the time. We've done it over and over again. So if you're feeling stuck or frustrated, reach out to us, let us help you make it make sense financially. We will help you justify the financial expense of working with us because really, a good coaching program should be making you money, not costing you money. [00:23:40] And if you do what we tell you to do, you will be making more money. Our program pays for itself. This is why we have probably the lowest churn rate in the entire industry. We keep clients because they're winning. [00:23:52] So reach out to us at DoorGrow. We would love to help you get going.  [00:23:55] Sarah: Be open, just be open to do things a little differently. [00:23:59] And if that's the case, if you are interested at all in having your company and your business and your life, just be better and different than this might be for you.  [00:24:11] Jason: The slowest path to growth is to do it all yourself or to think you can do it all yourself. That is it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth. Make sure you join our facebook group at doorgrowclub.Com. We have a bunch of free stuff in there and reach out to us at DoorGrow at doorgrow.Com We would love to help you grow your business. Bye everyone [00:24:30] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:24:57] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Jason Lengstorf, a developer media producer and host of the show Learn with Jason, joins Corey on this week's episode of Screaming in the Cloud to layout his ideas for creative developer content. Jason explains how devTV can have way more reach than webinars, the lack of inspiration he experiences at conferences these days, and why companies should be focused on hiring specialists before putting DevRels on the payroll. Plus, Corey and Jason discuss walking the line between claiming you're good at everything and not painting yourself into a corner as a DevRel and marketer.About JasonJason Lengstorf helps tech companies connect with developer communities through better media. He advocates for continued learning through collaboration and play and regularly live streams coding with experts on his show, Learn With Jason. He lives in Portland, Oregon.Links Referenced:Learn with Jason: https://www.learnwithjason.dev/Personal Website Links: https://jason.energy/linksTranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Before I went to re:Invent, I snuck out of the house for a couple of days to GitHub Universe. While I was there, I discovered all kinds of fascinating things. A conference that wasn't predicated on being as cheap as humanly possible was one of them, and a company that understood how developer experience might play out was another.And I also got to meet people I don't normally get to cross paths with. My guest today is just one such person. Jason Lengstorf is a developer media producer at Learn with Jason, which I have to assume is named after yourself.Jason: [laugh] It is yes.Corey: Or it's a dramatic mispronunciation on my part, like, no, no, it's ‘Learn with JSON' and it's basically this insane way of doing weird interchange formats, and you just try to sneak it through because you know I happen to be an XML purist.Jason: [laugh] Right, I'm just going to throw you a bunch of YAML today. That's all I want to talk about.Corey: Exactly. It keeps things entertaining, we're going to play with it. So, let's back up a sec. What do you do? Where do you start and where do you stop?Jason: I'm still learning how to answer this question, but I help companies do a better job of speaking to developer audiences. I was an engineer for a really long time, I went from engineering into developer advocacy and developer experience, and as of the last year, I'm doing that independently, with a big focus on the media that companies produce because I think that what used to work isn't working, and that there's a big opportunity ahead of us that I am really excited to help companies move into.Corey: It feels like this has been an ongoing area of focus for an awful lot of folks. How do you successfully engage with developer audiences? And if I'm being direct and more than a little bit cynical, a big part of it is that historically, the ways that a company marketed to folks was obnoxious. And for better or worse, when you're talking about highly technical topics and you're being loudly incorrect, a technical audience is not beholden to some of the more common business norms, and will absolutely call you out in the middle of you basically lying to them. “Oh, crap, what do we do now,” seemed to be a large approach. And the answer that a lot of folks seem to have come up with was DevRel, which… I've talked about it before in a bunch of different ways, and my one-liner is generally, “If you work in DevRel, that means you work in marketing, but they're scared to tell you that.”Jason: [laugh] I don't think you're wrong. And you know, the joke that I've made for a long time is that they always say that developers hate marketing. But I don't think developers hate marketing; they just hate the way that your company does it. And—Corey: Oh, wholeheartedly agree. Marketing done right is engaging and fun. A lot of what I do in public is marketing. Like, “Well, that's not true. You're just talking about whatever dumb thing AWS did this week.” “Well, yes, but then you stick around to see what else I say, and I just become sort of synonymous with ‘Oh, yeah, that's the guy that fixes AWS bills.'” That is where our business comes from, believe it or not.Jason: Ri—and I think this was sort of the heart of DevRel is that people understood this. They understood that the best way to get an audience engaged is to have somebody who's part of that audience engage with them because you want to talk to them on the level that they work. You're not—you know, a marketing message from somebody who doesn't understand what you do is almost never going to land. It just doesn't feel relatable. But if you talk to somebody who's done the thing that you do for work, and they can tell you a story that's engaging about the thing that you do for work, you want to hear more. You—you know, you're looking for a community, and I think that DevRel, the aim was to sort of create that community and give people a space to hang out with the added bonus of putting the company that employs that DevRel as an adjacent player to get some of that extra shine from wherever this community is doing well.Corey: It felt like 2019 was peak DevRel, and that's where I started to really see that you had, effectively, a lot of community conferences were taken over by DevRel, and you wound up with DevRel pitching to DevRel. And it became so many talks that were aligned with almost imagined problems. I think one of the challenges of working in DevRel is, if you're not careful, you stop being a practitioner for long enough that you can no longer relate to what the audience is actually dealing with. I can sit here and complain about data center travails that I had back in 2011, but are those still accurate in what's about to be 2024? Probably not.Jason: And I think the other problem that happens too is that when you work in DevRel, you are beholden to the company's goals, if the company employees you. And where I think we got really wrong is companies have to make money. We have to charge customers or the company ceases to exist, so when we go out and tell stories, we're encouraged by the company to focus on the stories that have the highest ROI for the company. And that means that I'm up on stage talking about some, like, far-future, large-scale enterprise thing that very few companies need, but most of the paying customers of my company would need. And it becomes less relatable, and I think that leads to some of the collapse that we saw that you mentioned, where dev events feel less like they're for devs and more like they're partner events where DevRel is talking to other DevRel is trying to get opportunities to schmooze partners, and grow our partner pipeline.Corey: That's a big part of it, where it seems, on some level, that so much of what DevRel does, when I see them talking about DevRel, it doesn't get around to DevRel is. Instead, it gets stuck in the weeds of what DevRel is not“. We are not shills for our employer.” Okay, I believe you, but also, I don't ever see you saying anything that directly contravenes what your employer does. Now, let me be clear: neither do I, but I'm also in a position where I can control what my employer does because I have the control to move in directions that align with my beliefs.I'm not saying that it's impossible to be authentic and true to yourself if you work for an employer, but I have seen a couple of egregious examples of people changing companies and then their position on topics they've previously been very vocal on pulled an entire one-eighty, where it's… it really left a bad taste in my mouth.Jason: Yeah. And I think that's sort of the trick of being a career DevRel is you have to sort of walk this line of realizing that a DevRel career is probably short at every company. Because if you're going to go there and be the face of a company, and you're not the owner of that company, they're almost inevitably going to start moving in a direction as business develops, that's not going to line up with your core values. And you can either decide, like, okay that's fine, they pay me well enough, I'm just going to suck it up and do this thing that I don't care about that much, or you have to leave. And so, if you're being honest with yourself, and you know that you're probably going to spend between 12 and 24 months at any given company as a DevRel, which—by the history I'm seeing, that seems to be pretty accurate—you need to be positioning and talking about things in a way that isn't painting you into that corner where you have to completely about-face, if you switch companies. But that also works against your goals as a DevRel at the company. So, it's—I think we've made some big mistakes in the DevRel industry, but I will pause to take a breath here [laugh].Corey: No, no, it's fine. Like, it's weird that I view a lot of what I do is being very similar to DevRel, but I would never call myself that. And part of it is because, for better or worse, it is not a title that tends to engender a level of respect from business owners, decision makers, et cetera because it is such a mixed bag. You have people who have been strategic advisors across the board becoming developer advocates. That's great.You also see people six months out of a boot camp who have decided don't like writing code very much, so they're going to just pivot to talking about writing code, and invariably, they believe, more or less, whatever their employer tells them because they don't have the history and the gravitas to say, “Wait a minute, that sounds like horse pucky to me.” And it's a very broad continuum. I just don't like blending in.Jason: Where I think we got a lot of this wrong is that we never did define what DevRel is. As you say, we mostly define what DevRel is not, and that puts us in a weird position where companies see other companies do DevRel, and they mostly pay attention to the ones who do DevRel really well. And they or their investors or other companies say, “You need a great DevRel program. This is the secret to growth.” Because we look at companies that have done it effectively, and we see their growth, and we say, “Clearly this has a strong correlation. We should invest in this.” But they don't—they haven't done it themselves. They don't understand which part of it is that works, so they just say, “We're hiring for DevRel.” The job description is nine different careers in a trench coat. And the people applying—Corey: Oh, absolutely. It's nine different things and people wind up subdividing into it, like, “I'm an events planner. I'm not a content writer.”Jason: Right.Corey: Okay, great, but then why not bill yourself as a con—as an events planner, and not have to wear the DevRel cloak?Jason: Exactly. And this is sort of what I've seen is that when you put up a DevRel job, they list everything, and then when you apply for a DevRel job, you also don't want to paint yourself into a corner and say, “My specialty is content,” or, “My specialty is public speaking,” or whatever it is. And therefore you say, “I do DevRel,” to give yourself more latitude as an employee. Which obviously I want to keep optionality anywhere I go. I would like to be able to evolve without being painted into a small box of, like, this is all I'm allowed to do, but it does put us in this really precarious position.And what I've noticed a lot of companies do is they hire DevRel—undefined, poorly written job description, poor understanding of the field. They get a DevRel who has a completely different understanding of what DevRel is compared to the people with the role open. Both of them think they're doing DevRel, they completely disagree on what those fundamentals are, and it leads to a mismatch, to burnout, to frustration, to, you know, this high turnover rate in this field. And everybody then starts to say, well, “DevRel is the problem.” But really, the problem is that we're not—we're defining a category, not a job, and I think that's the part that we really screwed up as an industry.Corey: Yeah. I wish there were a better way around there, but I don't know what that might be. Because it requires getting a bunch of people to change some cornerstone of what's become their identity.Jason: This is the part where I—this is probably my spiciest take, but I think that DevRel is marketing, but it is a different kind of marketing. And so, in a perfect world—like, where things start to fall apart is you try to slot DevRel into engineering, or you try to slot it into marketing, as a team on these broader organizations, but the challenge then becomes, if you have DevRel, in marketing, it will inevitably push more toward marketing goals, enterprise goals, top-of-funnel, qualified leads, et cetera. If you put them into engineering, then they have more engineering goals. They want to do developer experience reviews. They want to get out there and do demos. You know, it's much more engineering-focused—or if you're doing it right, is much more engineering-focused.But the best DevRel teams are doing both of those with a really good measure, and really clear metrics that don't line up with engineering or marketing. So, in a perfect world, you would just have an enterprise marketing team, and a developer marketing team, and that developer marketing team would be an organization that is DevRel today. And you would hire specialists—event planners, great speakers, great demo writers, probably put your docs team in there—and treat it as an actual responsibility that requires a larger team than just three or four ex-developers who are now speaking at conferences.Corey: There were massive layoffs across DevRel when the current macroeconomic correction hit, and I'd been worried about it for years in advance because—Jason: Mm-hm.Corey: So, many of these folks spent so much time talking about how they were not marketing, they were absolutely not involved in that. But marketing is the only department that really knows how to describe the value of these sorts of things without having hard metrics tied to it. DevRel spent a lot of time talking about how every metric used to measure them was somehow wrong, and if you took it to its logical conclusion, you would basically give these people a bunch of money—because they are expensive—and about that much money again in annual budget to travel more or less anywhere they want to go, and every time something good happened, as a result, to the company, they had some hand in it nebulously, but you could never do anything to measure their performance, so just trust that they're doing a good job. This is tremendously untenable.Jason: Mm-hm. Yeah, I think when I was running the developer experience org at Netlify, most of my meetings were justifying the existence of the team because there weren't good metrics. You can't put sales qualified leads on DevRel. It doesn't make any sense because there are too many links in the chain after DevRel opens the door, where somebody has to go from, ‘I'm aware of this company' to ‘I've interacted with the landing page' to ‘I've actually signed up for something' to ‘now I'm a customer,' before you can get them to a lead. And so, to have DevRel take credit is actually removing credit from the marketing team.And similarly, if somebody goes through onboarding, a lot of that onboarding can be guided by DevRel. The APIs that new developers interface with can be—the feedback can come from DevRel, but ultimately, the engineering team did that work the product team did that work. So, DevRel is this very interesting thing. I've described it as a turbocharger, where if you put it on an engine that runs well, you get better performance out of that engine. If you just plop one on the table, not a lot happens.Corey: Yeah, it's a good way of putting it. I see very early stage startups looking to hire a developer advocate or DevRel person in their seed stage or Series A, and it's… there's something else you're looking for here. Hire that instead. You're putting the cart before the horse.Jason: What a lot of people saw is they saw—what they're thinking of as DevRel is what they saw from very public founders. And when you get a company that's got this very public-facing, very engaging, charismatic founder, that's what DevRel feels like. It is, you know, this is the face of the company, we're showing you what we do on the inside, we're exposing our process, we're sharing the behind the scenes, and proving to you that we really are great engineers, and we care a lot. Look at all this cool stuff we're doing. And that founder up on stage was, I think, the original DevRel.That's what we used to love about conferences is we would go there and we would see somebody showing this thing they invented, or this new product they had built, and it felt so cool because it was these inspirational moments of watching somebody brilliant do something brilliant. And you got to follow along for that journey. And then we try to—Corey: Yeah I mean, that's natural, but you see booths at conferences, the small company startup booths, a lot of times you'll be able to talk to the founders directly. As the booths get bigger, your likelihood of being able to spend time talking to anyone who's materially involved in the strategic direction of that company gets smaller and smaller. Like, the CEO of GitHub isn't going to be sitting around at the GitHub booth at re:Invent. They're going to be, you know, talking to other folks—if they're there—and going to meetings and whatnot. And then you wind up with this larger and larger company. It's a sign of success, truly, but it also means that you've lost something along the way.Jason: Yeah, I think, you know, it's the perils of scale. And I think that when you start looking at the function of DevRel, it should sort of be looked at as, like, when we can't handle this anymore by ourselves, we should look for a specialty the same way that you do for any other function inside of a company. You know, it wouldn't make sense on day one of a startup to hire a reliability engineer. You're not at the point where that makes sense. It's a very expensive person to hire, and you don't have enough product or community or load to justify that role yet. And hopefully, you will.And I think DevRel is sort of the same way. Like, when you first start out your company, your DevRel should be the founding team. It should be your engineers, sharing the things that they're building so that the community can see the brilliance of your engineering team, sharing with the community, obviously, being invested in that community. And when you get big enough that those folks can no longer manage that and their day-to-day work, great, then look into adding specialists. But I think you're right that it's cart before the horse to, you know, make a DevRel your day-one hire. You just don't have enough yet.Corey: Yeah, I wish that there were an easy way to skin the cat. I'm not sure there is. I think instead we wind up with people doing what they think is going to work. But I don't know what the truth is.Jason: Mmm.Corey: At least. That's where I land on it.Jason: [laugh] Yeah, I mean, every company is unique, and every experience is going to be unique, so I think to say, “Do it exactly like this,” is—that's got a lot of survivorship bias, and do as I say—but at the same time, I do think there's some universal truths. Like, it doesn't really make sense to hire a specialist before you've proven that specialty is the secret sauce of your business. And I think you grow when it's time to grow, not just in case. I think companies that over-hire end up doing some pretty painful layoffs down the road. And, you know, obviously, there's an opposite end of that spectrum where you can grow too slowly and bury your team and burn everybody out, but I think, you know—we, [laugh] leading into the pandemic, I guess, we had a lot of free money, and I think people were thinking, let's go build an empire and we'll grow into that empire. And I think that is a lot of why we're seeing this really painful downsizing right now, is companies hired just in case and then realized that actually, that in case didn't come to be.Corey: What is the future of this look like? Easy enough to look back and say, well, that didn't work? Well, sure. What is the future?Jason: The playbook that we saw before—in, like, 2019 and before—was very event-driven, very, like, webinar-driven. And as we went into 2020, and people were at home, we couldn't travel, we got real sick of Zoom calls. We don't want to get on another video call again. And that led to that playbook not working anymore. You know, I don't want to get on a webinar with a company. I don't want to go travel to a company event, you know, or at least not very many of them. I want to go see the friends I haven't seen in three years.So, travel priorities changed, video call fatigue is huge, so we need something that people want to do, that is interesting, and that is, you know, it's worth making in its own right, so that people will engage with it, and then you work in the company goals as an incidental. Not as a minor incidental, but you know, it's got to be part of the story; it can't be the purpose. People won't sign up for a webinar willingly these days, I don't think, unless they have exactly the problem that your webinar purports to solve.Corey: And even if they do, it becomes a different story.Jason: Right.Corey: It's [high buying 00:19:03] signal, but people are constantly besieged by requests for attention. This is complicated by what I've seen over the last year. When marketing budgets get—cut, arguably too much, but okay—you see now that there's this follow-on approach where, okay, what are we going to cut? And people cut things that in many cases work, but are harder to attribute success to. Events, for example, are doing very well because you have someone show up at your booth, you scan their badge. Three weeks later, someone from that company winds up signing up for a trial or whatnot, and ah, I can connect those dots.Whereas you advertise on I don't know, a podcast as a hypothetical example that I'm pulling out of what's right in front of me, and someone listening to this and hearing a message from a sponsor, they might be doing something else. They'll be driving, washing dishes, et cetera, and at best they'll think, “Okay, I should Google that when I get back to a computer.” And they start hearing about it a few times, and, “Oh. Okay, now it's time for me to go and start paying serious attention to this because that sounds like it aligns with a problem I have.” They're not going to remember where they initially heard it.They're going to come in off of a Google search, so it sounds like it's all SEO's benefit that this is working, and it is impossible to attribute. I heard some marketer once say that 50% of your marketing budget is wasted, but you'll go bankrupt trying to figure out which half. It all ties together. But I can definitely see why people bias for things that are more easily attributed to the metric you care about.Jason: Yes. And I think that this is where I see the biggest opportunity because I think that we have to embrace that marketing signal is directional, not directly attributable. And if you have a focus campaign, you can see your deviation from baseline signups, and general awareness, and all of the things that you want to be true, but you have to be measuring that thing, right? So, if we launch a campaign where we're going to do some video ads, or we're going to do some other kind of awareness thing, the goal is brand awareness, and you measure that through, like, does your name get mentioned on social media? Do you see a deviation from baseline signups where it is trending upward?And each of those things is signal that the thing you did worked. Can you directly attribute it? No, but I think a functional team can—you know, we did this at Netlify all the time where we would go and look: what were the efforts that were made, what were the ones that got discussion on different social media platforms, and what was the change from baseline? And we saw certain things always drove a non-trivial deviation from baseline in the right direction. And that's one of the reasons that I think the future of this is going to be around how do you go broader with your reach?And my big idea—to nutshell it—is, like, dev TV. I think that developers want to see the things that they're interested in, but they want it to be more interesting than a straight webinar. They want to see other developers using tools and getting a sense of what's possible in an entertaining way. Like, they want stories, they don't want straight demos. So, my thinking here is, let's take this and steer into it.Like, we know that developers love when you put a documentary together. We saw the Vue documentary, and the React documentary, and the GraphQL documentary, and the Kubernetes documentary coming out of the Honeypot team, and they've got hundreds of thousands, and in some cases, millions of views because developers really want to see good stories about us, about our community. So, why not give the dev community a Great British Bake Off, but for web devs? Why not create an Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown-style travel show that highlights various web communities? Why not get out there and make reality competition shows and little docuseries that help us highlight all the things that we're learning and sharing and building?Every single one of those is going to involve developers talking about the tools they use, talking about the problems they solve, talking about what they were doing before and how they've made it better. That's exactly what a webinar is, that's what a conference talk is, but instead of getting a small audience at a conference, or you know, 15 to 30 people signing up for your webinar, now we've got the potential for hundreds of thousands or even millions of people to watch this thing because it's fun to watch. And then they become aware of the companies involved because it's presented by the company; they see the thing get used or talked about by developers in their community, I think there's a lot of magic and potential in that, and we've seen it work in other verticals.Corey: And part of the problem comes down as well to the idea that, okay, you're going to reach some people in person at events, but the majority of engineers are not going to be at any event or—Jason: Right.Corey: Any event at all, for that matter. They just don't go to events for a variety of excellent reasons. How do you reach out to them? Video can work, but I always find that requires a bit of a different skill than, I don't know, podcasting or writing a newsletter. So, many times, it feels like it's, oh, and now you're just going to basically stare at the camera, maybe with someone else, and it looks like the Zoom call to which the viewer is not invited.Jason: Right.Corey: They get enough of that. There has to be something else.Jason: And I think this is where the new skill set, I think, is going to come in. It exists in other places. We see this happen in a lot of other industries, where they have in-house production teams, they're doing collaborations with actors and athletes and bringing people in to make really entertaining stories that drive underlying narratives. I mean, there's the ones that are really obvious, like, the Nikes of the world, but then there are far less obvious examples.Like, there was this show called Making It. It was… Nick Offerman and Amy Poehler were the hosts. It was the same format as the Great British Bake Off but around DIY and crafting. And one of the permanent judges was the Etsy trend expert, right? And so, every single episode, as they're judging this, the Etsy trend expert is telling all of these crafters and contestants, “You know, what you built here is always a top seller on Etsy. This is such a good idea, it's so well executed, and people love this stuff. It flies off the shelves in Etsy stores.”Every single episode, just perfectly natural product placement, where a celebrity that you know—Nick Offerman and Amy Poehler—are up there, lending—like, you want to see them. They're so funny and engaging, and then you've got the credibility of Etsy's trend expert telling the contestants of the show, “If you do DIY and crafting, you can make a great living on Etsy. Here are the things that will make that possible.” It's such subtle, but brilliant product placement throughout the entire thing. We can do that. Like, we have the money, we just spend it in weird places.And I think that as an industry, if we start getting more creative about this and thinking about different ways we can apply these marketing dollars that we're currently dumping into very expensive partner dinners or billboards or getting, you know, custom swag or funding yet another $150,000 conference sponsorship, we could make a series of a TV show for the same cost as throwing one community event, and we would reach a significantly larger group.Corey: Yeah. Now, there is the other side of it, too, where Lord knows I found this one out the fun way, that creating content requires significant effort and—Jason: Yes.Corey: Focus. And, “Oh, it's a five-minute video. Great, that could take a day or three to wind up putting together, done right.” One of the hardest weeks of my year is putting together a bunch of five-minute videos throughout the course of re:Invent. So much that is done in advance that is basically breaking the backs of the editing team, who are phenomenal, but it still turns into more than that, where you still have this other piece of it of the actual content creation part.And you can't spend all your time on that because pretty soon I feel like you become a talking head who doesn't really do the things that you are talking to the world about. And that content gets pretty easy to see when you start looking at, okay, what did someone actually do? Oh, they were a developer for three years, and they spent the next seven complaining about development, and how everyone is—Jason: [laugh].Corey: Doing it wrong on YouTube. Hmm… it starts to get a little, how accurate is this really? So, for me, it was always critical that I still be hands-on with things that I'm talking about because otherwise I become a disaster.Jason: And I agree. One of the things that my predecessor at Netlify, Sarah Drasner, put in place was a, what she called an exchange program, where we would rotate the DevRel team onto product, and we rotate product onto the DevRel team. And it was a way of keeping the developer experience engineers actually engineers. They would work on the product, they didn't do any DevRel work, they were exclusively focused on doing actual engineering work inside our product to just help keep their skills sharp, keep them up to date on what's going on, build more empathy for the engineers that we talk to every day, build more empathy for our team instead of us—you know, you never want to hear a DevRel throw the engineering team under the bus for not shipping a feature everybody wants.So, these sorts of things are really important, and they're hard to do because we had to—you know, that's a lot of negotiation to say, “Hey, can we take one of your engineers for a quarter, and we'll give you one of our engineers for a quarter, and you got to trust us that's going to work out in your favor.” [laugh] Right? Like, there's a lot that goes into this to make that sort of stuff possible. But I absolutely agree. I don't think you get to make this type of content if you've fully stepped out of engineering. You have to keep it part of your practice.Corey: There's no way around it. You have to be hands-on. I think that's the right way to do it, otherwise, it just leads to, frankly, disaster. Very often, you'll see people who are, like, “Oh, they're great in the DevRel space. What do they do?” And they go to two or three conferences a year, and they have a blog post or so. It's like, okay, what are they doing the rest of that time?Sometimes the answer is fighting internal political fires. Other times it's building things and learning these things and figuring out where they stand. There are some people, I don't want to name names, although an easy one is Kelsey Hightower, who has since really left the stage, that he's retired, but when he went up on stage and said something—despite the fact that he worked at Google—it was eminently clear that he believed in what he was saying, or he would not say it.Jason: Right.Corey: He was someone who was very clearly aware of the technology about which he was speaking. And that was great. I wish that it were not such a standout moment to see him speak and talk about that. But unfortunately, he kind of is. Not as many people do that as well as we'd like.Jason: Agreed. I think it was always a treat to see Kelsey speak. And there are several others that I can think of in the community who, when they get on stage, you want to be in that audience, and you want to sit down and listen. And then there are a lot of others who when they get on stage, it's like that this book could have been a blog post, or this—you know, this could have been an email, that kind of thing. Like you could have sent me this repo because all you did was walk through this repo line-by-line, or something that—it doesn't feel like it came from them; it feels like it's being communicated by them.And I think that's, again, like, when I criticize conferences, a lot of my criticism comes from the fact that, coming up, I feel like every speaker that I saw on stage—and this is maybe just memory… playing favorites for me, but I feel like I saw a lot of people on stage who were genuinely passionate about what they were creating, and they were genuinely putting something new into the world every time they got on stage. And I have noticed that I feel less and less like that. Also, I feel like events have gotten less and less likely to put somebody on stage unless they've got a big name DevRel title. Like, you have to work at a company that somebody's heard of because they're all trying to get that draw because attendance is going down. And—Corey: Right. It's a—like, having run some conferences myself, the trick is, is you definitely want some ringers in there. People you know will do well, but you also need to give space for new voices to arise. And sometimes it's a—it always bugs me when it seems like, oh, they're here because their company is a big sponsor. Of course, they have the keynote. Other times, it's a… like, hate the actual shill talks, which I don't see as much, which I'm thankful for; I'd stop going to those conferences, but jeez.Jason: Yeah, and I think it's definitely one of those, like, this is a thing that we can choose to correct. And I have a suspicion that this is a pendulum not a—not, like, the denouement of—is that the right—how do you say that word? De-NOW-ment? De-NEW-ment? Whatever.Corey: Denouement is my understanding, but that might be the French acc—Jason: Oh, me just—Corey: The French element.Jason: —absolutely butchering that. Yeah [laugh]. I don't think this is the end of conferences, like we're seeing them taper into oblivion. I think this is a lull. I think that we're going to realize that we want to—we really do love being in a place with other developers. I want to do that. I love that.But we need to get back to why we were excited to go to conferences in the first place, which was this sharing of knowledge and inspiration, where you would go see people who were literally moving the world forward in development, and creating new things so that you would walk away with insider info, you had just seen the new thing, up close and personal, had those conversations, and you went back so jazzed to build something new. I feel like these days, I feel more like I went and watched a handful of product demos, and now I'm really just waiting to the hallway track, which is the only, like, actually interesting part at a lot of events these days.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Jason: Most of what I share is on learnwithjason.dev, or if you want a big list of links, I have jason.energy/links, which has a whole bunch of fun stuff for you to find.Corey: Awesome. And we will, of course, include links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Jason: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This was a blast.Corey: Jason Lengstorf, developer media producer at Learn with Jason. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that will no doubt become the basis for somebody's conference talk.Jason: [laugh].Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Owning a property management company can be expensive, risky, and stressful. Property management business owners often surround themselves with the wrong team members. Today, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Pete Neubig with VPM to talk about building effective and efficient property management teams. You'll Learn [01:58] Having a business in “Chaos Mode” [09:02] The importance of core values [14:45] How VAs help your business thrive [23:18] Accountability, KPIs, and training [30:06] Creating company culture with VAs [37:07] Getting the right people in the right roles [41:30] VAs for property management companies Tweetables “When you're in high growth, you seem to be in chaos mode, and when you're in chaos mode, you don't make any money.” “When you're not proactive in your business and you're reactive, you're losing trust and churn goes up.” “If you don't have your org structure correct, it doesn't matter how many whistles and bells you have.” “I think every business owner needs to build the business around themselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Pete: If you don't have your org structure correct, it doesn't matter how many whistles and bells you have. If your org structure is not correct, It all goes to hell in a handbasket.  [00:00:09] Jason: All right. Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:28] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners, and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:03] I'm your host, property management expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, my wife. Co-owner of DoorGrow and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:16] So our guest today, we've got Pete Neubig back on the show with VPM Solutions. Welcome Pete.  [00:01:23] Pete: Welcome Jason, sarah. Thanks for having me.  [00:01:25] Jason: Yeah, good to have you. So now Pete, you were an operator of a property management company.  [00:01:31] Pete: That's correct.  [00:01:32] Jason: With Steve Rosenberg and you really helped to dial in the operations there and build that up. And now you're helping people do this in their property management business with your VA company. So we're going to be chatting about today is the number one way to increase productivity and profitability, so this should be interesting. So Pete, what is the number one way to increase productivity and profitability? Let's get into the subject.  [00:01:57] Pete: Sure. So before I jump right in, I'll talk about just a little brief history of Empire Industries, which was the company that we owned. So, we came from the investor side, Steve and I, we partnered up, we owned about 31 homes. Bought too many, didn't know how to manage it. [00:02:12] We love the idea of buying the deal. We hated the idea of managing it. So we went out looking for management firms and then realized we felt we could build a better mousetrap, which we ended up doing. Our original vision, I know you talk a lot about vision in your coaching, our original vision was we were going to own 500 homes and manage them ourselves, and within a year, that vision went to crap and we ended up managing 60 homes and I owned 37 of them. I'm like, "Steve, how are we managing these other homes?" And we were third-party managing all of a sudden. Because he felt that everybody needed help. And so we started third-party managing. So that's how we got into it, and we ended up building a better mousetrap and we created a third-party management firm and we took it from those 31 doors that we had all class D minus stuff, which is a whole other podcast. And I think you've actually listened to one of yours recently about something like that. So we ended up taking it to about 980 single-family homes and nothing more than four units in Texas, single families, one to four units and we went to three markets. We were in Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth. And what happened was with us, our vision was no longer aligned. Steve wanted to take the property manager firm national. I wanted to literally just stay in Houston and get like 1500 homes. And so that fractured the partnership to the point where we decided to sell the business. Long story short, I couldn't afford to buy him out and he didn't want to buy me out. So we ended up selling to My Management, took a job with them for a couple of years, and realized I was no longer employable and that's when I started VPM Solutions. So that's the short version of it, but we were in chaos mode for many years at Empire. [00:03:43] When you're in high growth, I don't know if you've seen this with your clients, but we were in high growth and when you're in high growth, you seem to be in chaos mode. And when you're in chaos mode, you don't make any money. We didn't anyway. And so what we had found was our number one challenge was payroll costs. So the number one challenge that I've seen, and I've talked to a lot of people across the country, your number one challenge is either growth or payroll costs. The interesting thing about property management because it's a service-based industry and because it's so service-based that you almost have to stress your team out to make money. [00:04:16] Right? So you're on this kind of seesaw where I don't really have that many doors, but I need the people. But so the salary cost is so high that there's no money for me. As I grow the doors. Right. Now I don't hire anybody, but now I'm making money, but my team is now completely stressed out. They work in weekends, they work at nights, they're taking phone calls. They don't give the great customer service. And so payroll costs, what we saw was with us, our payroll costs are about 56%. Which is really high. A business should be around 30 to 36% is what I was taught by my business coach. I don't know if you've seen anything different in the service space, but that's what I've heard. So I had to figure out how to get my payroll cost down from 56% all the way down to about 30%. And I'll tell you how I did it with virtual assistants, so I'll let the cat out of the bag, right? We got it down to about 34%. So from 56 to 34%, and every percentage that you save in payroll costs is a dollar in your pocket. [00:05:11] But then you'd be like, "Well, Pete, if you have less people or, you have less payroll, typically you have less people. And if you have less people, your team is stressed," and I get all that. But let's talk a little bit about what happens when you have a stressed team. Okay. So when you have a stressed team, the little things go out the window, right? [00:05:27] All of a sudden, you're not making those calls to get those online reviews. All of a sudden, you're not making the calls and your communication goes downhill. And when a landlord owner or an owner client calls you to find out what's going on with the problem, whether it's maintenance, lease, you know, lease renewal, whatever it is, they feel like they're managing you. [00:05:43] So when you're not proactive in your business and you're reactive, you're losing trust and churn goes up. At Empire, our churn was around 34%, which is insane, right? The average churn in the business, my understanding is like 18 to 20%. Right.  [00:06:00] Jason: And that's his annual churn.  [00:06:02] Pete: Yeah. So it's high, right? [00:06:03] 34%. And I can tell you that the majority of it was people were unhappy with our service. Yeah. Right. So it wasn't good churn, right? Because you have good, neutral, bad, however you want to define it. We had mainly bad churn. People weren't selling houses and like, "all right, we're out of here, we sold." No, they were taking them because they were not getting the love, the communication really from us. So by having these payroll costs so high, I couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford people. So what happened, especially after 2020 with that pandemic is that the cost of hiring people got incredibly high, right? [00:06:34] So I call them low-level, low enjoyment jobs. Let's take a maintenance coordinator, for example, right? That's the number one job that is posted on VPM solutions today. Is the maintenance coordinator. So that's the first thing people look for typically. Well, a maintenance coordinator in Houston, Texas, back in 2018, 2019, was about a $35,000 a year job. Well, after 2020, people that want to do a job, they want like about $50-55,000, right? And the company just can't absorb that. They can't afford to hire people. On top of that, the type of people that we were getting were GEDs or high school, diplomas, no longer college-educated people wanted that job. Most of those people have challenges in their life and they bring them into your business. So, this all came to a head. I had a lady named Sharon, and Sharon was my front office coordinator. This is back in a day when we had these things called offices and office space. [00:07:22] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:23] Pete: So I remember those days. In 2019 and before so people would walk into our office, drop off, rant or whatever. Right. And Sharon was this, she was like this angry lady. And I'm like this tells you what my hiring process was back then it was not very good. And some of the things that you teach, I'm like, man, I wish I would have known that back in 18, 17 and 19. So she's the wrong person. She was the wrong person and she was the wrong fit. But in my mind, I'm like, "Well, she's mean." I'm like, "She'd be great for a maintenance coordinator, right? She can tell people no all the time." So I decided instead of firing her, I decided to promote her, right. Which was a terrible mistake. So I promote Sharon to maintenance coordinator. Now, unfortunately for Sharon, she was my maintenance coordinator. I was actually managing properties back then at the time. And so just for that, she probably should've got some hazard pay. So I get that. I'm not the easiest guy to work for, especially when I'm managing properties. So Sharon comes and within one week, Now I gave Sharon a raise, so I moved her from front office to the maintenance coordinator. She was making about $35, I gave her like $ 40,000. [00:08:20] She's making what I think is decent money. That's not great money. I get that, but it was good money at the time. Within one week, she comes to my office. She tells me she needs more money. I'm already just scraping by as the business. Just scraping by, single-digit profit margin. So that's when I realized that I could eliminate her position. I can hire three people that are overseas for the same cost as one Sharon. But here's the big difference. Those three people, they're obviously bilingual, right? And here I'm in Houston and Dallas and Fort Worth at the time, Spanish is like, a lot of our tenants, about a third of them didn't really speak English. A lot of our vendors, Spanish was their first language. So I can get bilingual people, I can get college-educated people, I can get people that are ready or knowing that they want to work from home. And here's the most important thing though. I can get people that were not just a J-O-B to them, but a career and they were excited about the opportunity to work with us and for us. And so the attitude and all of a sudden I can find people that align with our core values.  [00:09:18] Jason: Yeah. That's significant to be able to find people that align with your core values. Yup.  [00:09:22] Pete: A hundred percent. But now I have three people doing the work. So now what happened is I had a little hesitation from my property managers, right? Because property managers are designed to be taskers. Right. So I had to take my property managers and I had to lift them up. And we actually changed the name. We said, you're no longer considered a property manager. You're a client relations specialist. Or an asset manager. I like asset manager better, but that was one of the fights I lost with Rosenberg. If anybody knows Steve, he's 6'4 full of muscles. So we arm wrestled and I lost on that one. We call them client relations specialists.  [00:09:55] Jason: But you wanted to call them what? Asset managers?  [00:09:58] Pete: Asset managers. I think an asset manager just has a little bit more cachet. And if you really think about it, right? How many clients do you have, like you're listening, that call you up and tell you how to manage their property, even though you're the expert? I felt the property manager, I call them gophers. I felt the property manager, they had to take these calls from these owners all the time and say, "Hey, go to my property, make sure the water in the pool is being filled up. Go to my property. Gas man's going to come there. I want to know about this $12 expense." meaningless and small conversations. You would never have those conversations with the guy managing your money, right? Imagine calling your Smith Barney guy and say, "I don't like the way you made this trade. Like you should make this trade different." no, you just let the guy do his thing. So how do you let us do our thing? Well, words are powerful and property manager to me has lost its luster. And it just reminds me of a gopher.  [00:10:45] Jason: I think also the phrase property manager in the property management space has become like saying " miscellaneous role" and that like it doesn't have meaning a lot of times there runs into this a lot with coaching our clients. [00:10:58] Sarah: Like, "what does your property manager do?" And they're like, "they pretty much do everything." "Okay..."  [00:11:02] Pete: And that's a problem And the reason why they do everything is because they can't afford more people because the margin is so slim. Right, so we got to the point where our property managers got elevated, made them client relations specialists. And what does that mean? It means that they had to learn a new skill. They had to manage by reports. They had to manage people because now all of the low level property management tasks were being done by my team in the virtual assistant world. And when I mean everything, but by the time Empire was done now, granted, we're almost a thousand units. But at that point we can hire some people. Everybody had one hat, which was a beautiful thing because now you can have your job description really set. You can have your KPIs really set. You can have your DISC profile really set. And you know who to hire. [00:11:43] And they have one or two numbers and they end up doing a much better job than the manager who's doing all of it. So over the course of your growth, you have to change your infrastructure, right? You go from portfolio to hybrid, hybrid to departmental to pod and all that good stuff. I got to departmental, we never got to pod and then we sold. That was probably going to be the next move for us. [00:12:05] If you don't have your org structure correct, it doesn't matter how many whistles and bells you have. I could have property meld and I can have Zapier and I can have lead simple. I can have all these things. I can have a bunch of VAs, but if your org structure is not correct, It all goes to hell in a handbasket, just even quicker, right? [00:12:22] Cause now you have all this stuff happening even faster and it just gets crazier. And so with us, what we did is we had the structure, right? So now the managers, they're not taking those first phone calls. what was happening, Jason, is that when people would call, right? An owner client would call, my manager would pick up the phone. And as they're talking to this person, they're literally online and doing 14 tasks, responding to 18 emails. And people can hear that, they can see that and they can feel it over the phone. And so what do they do? Well, you don't really have enough time for me, I'm going to go take my property elsewhere. Or if you mess up, you know what, not only do you not have time for me, you mess up, right? So now what we do is we have everything happening on a low level.  [00:13:01] My managers told me, and I've talked to other managers since, my managers told me that maintenance took 80% of their time, right? And so I've heard that time and time again. So that was the first thing. So everybody always asks " okay, if I do hire a virtual assistant what's the first thing I should hire?" And the answer is, it depends for me. I knew my churn rate was directly related to the way we handle me.. I knew it. I didn't have to have a consultant come in and tell me that, right? [00:13:27] I just getting beat up every day by it. So I ended up hiring I was going to hire one remote team member, I ended up hiring four, right? And I trained them, figuring that somebody is going to drop off, but I wanted to train them all together. Now I did the training. Training is like literally the most tedious thing ever. And nobody wants to train. Everybody wants to hire somebody that they know exactly how to do it and they know exactly how to do it your way. It doesn't work that way. You have to take one step back to two steps forward. What people don't realize is the time you spend training your people, you get back in perpetuity forever. Because if you train your people correctly and you have good core values and you have a great culture, they ain't going to leave, right? People are so worried. I'm going to transfer, isn't going to leave. Yeah. If you're running a crappy company. Right. If you're running a crappy company and yeah, I'd be freaking worried too. [00:14:11] Right. Yeah. Make sure you're running a great company. You train the people. And then here's the great thing. As people moved on, whether they moved on and got another job or they moved on because I promoted them, guess who did the training for the next batch? My team did the training for the next batch. By the way, my churn rate for my remote team was way less than my churn rate in my US team. Right. Right. Incredibly different.  [00:14:32] Jason: Churn rate of retaining clients, of team members?  [00:14:36] Pete: Team members. Retaining team members. Churn rate of clients and you have churn rate of team members, right?  [00:14:39] Jason: Yeah. Their loyalty is just a lot stronger because they don't get these kinds of opportunities as often.  [00:14:45] Pete: Correct. Correct. So once my maintenance team was on board, now my manager, I literally saved with the narrow minds 80%, but here's the funny thing, right? So as I'm training. I had a director of operations. Her name was Margo and I still talk to Margo today. I love Margo. She would come to my office every day for 90 days. She came to my office with her cup of coffee every morning and said, "I don't think these VAs are going to work. I don't think these virtual assistants are going to work." Okay. Because when I was training right now, I did the training, not Margo. [00:15:12] I was training them, but when I was training them. What we had to do is every work order had to go to the property manager, then to the virtual assistant, then the virtual assistant would talk to the resident, the owner, bring it back to the property manager because they were getting, they were training, right? So they had to learn what to do in each situation, which caused my property managers more time, right? So that 80 percent went to 90 percent or even a hundred percent or 110. Now they're working extra hours. So they hated it. On day 91 I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I shit you not, day 91, she comes into my office and she has our same cup of coffee and I'm getting ready to listen to the spiel and she goes, " do we have maintenance anymore?" [00:15:47] Yeah. And I laughed and it took 90 days, but I got it. Yeah. The point where, so all of the work orders were being done by the remote team that nothing was getting escalated anymore. Only very little things right? So my managers do say, what do they do? Well, they take on all the escalations. Now imagine. What brain power, right? My team in United States, they were the ones that were the experts, right? So, but imagine if they only are dealing with high level escalations, not all the other little, because how many times did I have all these little things get done, but then we missed the big thing. [00:16:18] And then all of a sudden what happens is I call them taps, two by fours, and mack trucks, right? A tap is basically a maintenance request. That's going unanswered for, let's call it 15 days. Okay. That's a tap. The two by four is now the resident bypass you calls the owner. Now the owner knows that it hadn't happened or the resident blasts you on social. And then the mack truck is the lawsuit that gets across your desk, the tech, the report the complaint to the the real estate commission. Right. Or you're just getting, or you lose a client, right? Yeah. Those are two of those. So my team was so busy that they were missing the taps that they were becoming two by fours. And these are called fires. All right. And all we're doing is trying to deal with this fire. And then of course, every once in a while you get a mack truck, right? And it's what the heck? So now that my managers are not doing the day to day stuff, they're able to be proactive. So they're looking at reports. They're literally looking for taps. And now they're solving those taps. What that means is now the owner clients not calling you to find out what's going on. You're calling them, you're reaching out to them, you're letting them know, or you're taking care of it before they even, before it even becomes an issue. [00:17:18] And so by, by having your high dollar people that are licensed and they have experience by allowing them to not do the low level, low enjoyment stuff they actually became not only do they take all the escalation, but they actually became internal salespeople. All of a sudden, and this is stuff that we didn't anticipate, all of a sudden, though, like my company's name was empire property management in realty. That 90 percent of my customers had no idea that we could buy and sell homes for them. We're called realty and no idea. But once I got my property managers to be client relations specialist, guess what's happening. All of a sudden people are going to buy houses and they're buying them through us. [00:17:54] All of a sudden people want to sell. They want to sell through us. So all of a sudden our revenue goes up, right? Then all of a sudden they're like, who do investors hang out with? They hang out with other investors, right? You're the, you're like the five most, what is it? It's the old saying that you hear you're the average of the five people you hang out the most. All of a sudden they're getting, we're getting referrals. We never got referrals. So now we're getting a bunch of sales. We're getting a bunch of referrals. We're getting people to buy stuff where the agent, right? And when you're the agent, you get, you build that, that relationship. [00:18:18] And so now all of a sudden our churn rate dips down to, I think it was 22 percent from 34%. Right. So the interesting thing is I told you when I first started, right, I went from 54 percent to 34 percent in payroll costs. My payroll actually stayed the same. It was the churn rate that went down, increased my revenue. [00:18:36] It was the other clients, right? And retaining people and getting more clients. That's what, that's where the difference was. And now my managers. We're incredibly happy. They're no longer working nights and weekends. They're no longer stressed. Right now. And so now they are they're having the best life ever. [00:18:53] And my VA team, my remote team, they're making more money than they've ever made before. And it was easy to, and then they all had KPIs and they were all like. People want to inherently do a good job. They do. Right. And so, but they don't know how to do a good job unless you tell them what that looks like. And that's the job description. And they want to report card and that's KPIs. And my team down there, we had them in Mexico cause they're the Spanish speaking. But what happened was again, another thing that we didn't realize was not only the team do the work, they hit the KPIs, they exceeded the KPIs and we create a bonus structure around the KPIs. [00:19:26] So if you hit the KPI, you got a firm handshake. Thank you. Right. But if you exceeded the KPI, you got a bonus. And if you were part of a team, everybody in team added the KPI or you didn't get the bonus. And what I like about with the virtual team is the bonus was a hundred dollars a month. If you hit a certain level, you got a hundred dollars for us wasn't a lot of money, a hundred dollars to somebody in the US. Like literally would get mad at me. That's a little, that's too little of a bonus. It doesn't even fill up my car. Right. And they throw it at you. Somebody in the Philippines or Mexico or Costa Rica it's an extra couple of days of work per month. [00:19:58] So they were really appreciative of that, of the opportunity to make more money. What happened was everybody started exceeding their KPIs to the point where I couldn't make the KPI any more difficult. Like it just is what it is. And they were just doing it. And then here's the magic. [00:20:11] What happened next? was they ended up updating or changing the process. So my deal as the business owner was, I am the policy maker, I make the policy, but you own the process. And when somebody comes in and says, "Hey, I changed the process." And I use this example a lot. I had Jessica who was running all my lease renewals. [00:20:30] So we had about a thousand units and I have one person doing all lease renewals, inspections and lease renewals. Our policy was that you could not do a lease renewal unless an inspection was done, an annual inspection was complete. And we used to start the process 60 days out. Jessica moved it to 90 days out. And when I was talking to them, I'm like, Jessica, I'm just curious what made you, and I don't, I try not to ask why questions because why questions put people blame, excuse, denial below the line and they get defensive. I asked, what made you decide to move it from 60 to 90 days? And she goes, "well, with 90 days, I can do X and Y. Like I can get to the owners faster. I know if the, if the residents do it" and she laid it all out. I'm like, amazing. She was doing a better job than I could have done because that's what her core focus was. Yeah. She was just on that. So then what people will say to me is Pete. [00:21:13] Okay. Well, how do you know she's just not doing the lease renewals and not the inspections because she wants to hit our number. Right. That's the first question I get all the time. And I say, "well, we hire people based on our core values. And one of our core values was integrity. And so if you hire people with integrity, they're not going to do the loop around." [00:21:30] I was able to run reports very quickly that determined all the lease renewals and if they had an inspection done so I've been reporting it. It was very simple to, to make sure that I was, I hold them accountable. Yeah, that's another core value of that we had is we hope people get, we run our business by numbers. [00:21:48] We hold people accountable. And so that's so, so because we did all of that, we were able to solve our challenge of no profit or single digit profit margin to, double digit and eventually get to about that 20 percent profit margin, even though we, even while we were still investing in a lot of money, growing the business. [00:22:07] Jason: Yeah, so we've, I love all the stuff you've been talking about. I think we've had some phenomenal results getting clients to improve their profit margin. And we've got clients easily getting up to 40%. Sarah ran her business over 60 and I think the three biggest profit levers are building a really solid process system, a really solid people system, and a really solid planning system and the planning system we call DoorGrow OS. [00:22:33] But that was really where we started to motivate the team to think in terms of outcomes and get them to think more strategically like business owners. And so that strategic work is what moves businesses forward. That's where they're innovating. That's where they're improving a process and so those kind of goals, if we give a team member an outcome and we say, "figure out however you can best do this, within our values with integrity. Figure out a better way," then I'm not concerned about micromanaging them. I we're less involved in managing the team. They're now managing themselves because they're trying to achieve the outcome. And a lot of team members in a lot of business don't even have job descriptions. So they don't even know what outcomes they're expecting. [00:23:15] Pete: If you're not sure what they're supposed to do. How do they know what they're supposed to do?  [00:23:18] Jason: Right. And if you ask anyone listening to this, if you ask your team members. This would be a curious and interesting experience for you or experiment. Ask your team members, "what are the outcomes that you think are most important for your role?" and compare that with what you think they are. I think you might be surprised. These should be agreed upon and defined, right? That should be in the job descriptions. Pete, I really appreciate all your transparency and sharing, because a lot of times everybody wants to, especially with like coaches in the industry, I see a lot of people coaching mentoring, but you don't get to see how the sausage is made and you don't really hear the challenges they have, but they might be really charismatic. They might really be good at speaking, but there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. And then what a lot of coaches in the industry do is they try to get people to build the business the way they did, which may not even be working. And so I think what's important, I think every business owner needs to build the business around themselves. It needs to be built to allow them the maximum level of fulfillment and freedom and contribution and support in their own business and that fifth reason of safety and certainty. [00:24:25] And that means every business is going to be unique because every business owner is unique. If you started a property management business right now, it would be run very differently than some others, because you're very operationally minded and you would build your team very differently than somebody that's very visionary sales oriented, right? [00:24:41] And I think it's important to get the right team built around you. And a lot of times I think the foundational challenges, a lot of business owners aren't clear on themselves. And then they start building a team and they're miserable. They have an entire team and they're still miserable. They've built the wrong team. [00:24:55] Pete: Well, I think every new business owner does that, right? They don't feel like they deserve good people. So they self sabotage sometimes. Right.  [00:25:04] Jason: They don't believe the good people are out there. A lot of times they just don't even believe there's good people. They're like, "Oh, everybody's terrible." so guess what they attract? Right. And what's surprising the truth is just like you had mentioned, when you find good people, they will exceed you doing that role. Especially if it's one of your minus signs, it's not one of the hats you enjoy wearing, they will be better at it than you, if they enjoy doing it. A hundred percent. And that's super humbling for these early stage entrepreneurs, because they think they're the best at everything initially.  [00:25:33] Pete: There's two thoughts, right? So when you hire somebody, there's the whole abdication of it. And then there's a delegation and then there's the micromanagement. And so, what I find is that when people hire people in the United States, they abdicate a lot of times when they hire people that are remote, they want to micromanage for whatever reason, even though they've invested a lot more money in the person in the United States. Right. And then there's people that just, they just abdicate regardless. [00:25:58] And what I mean by abdication is, I'm a property manager. I'm doing a whole bunch of stuff myself. I hire an assistant and I just throw up on them and say, here's all the things that I'm doing. Go ahead and do it. There's no direction. There's no accountability. There's no management. [00:26:11] Right. And then they get excited. " Oh yeah, I'm a great delegator." No, you're an abdicator. You're not a delegator because you're not giving them the tools and the guidance that's needed. And then what happens is the VA or the person leaves and " well, I don't understand. I can't find any good people, so I'm just going to keep doing it myself." the first thing is when you hire somebody, you have to understand, you just can't just abdicate. You have to make time for them, especially in the first couple of months, right? They're learning you and your culture. At the end of the day, if you are the sole operator and the business owner each one of us have core values, right? We have our personal core values. Most of those are going to be embedded into the company that we built. They should be anyway. You shouldn't change your core values for your company. If I'm full of integrity, I'm not going to create a company that's not, that doesn't have a lot of integrity, right? [00:26:55] So these people are going to learn by you training them or your team training them, right? Core values always get pushed down. If you're listening to this and you do not have core values in your company, you have core values in your company they're just not yours. The team created core values. They push them up and they may or may not be the ones that you want. Right. But when you hire somebody, it's important that you spend a lot of time with them to train them properly so that they understand what they're doing. What I have found is that most jobs can be trained within two to three weeks. Especially if you're wearing one hat. The more, what I call decision points or if then else's, and the biggest one that I've found is in maintenance coordination has a lot of decision points. What if it's over the threshold? What if it's a home warranty? What if it's an emergency? What if it's cosmetic? [00:27:39] Right? You go on and on. That's why it took me 90 days. Because we had to go through every one of those scenarios and I had to train on. And it's just a little bit more in depth. My least renewable person, I was able to train her in two to three weeks. And you're right. And so by the training and by creating the KPIs and then by having a weekly meeting with structure. [00:27:57] Right. So nothing gets me more fired up than having a meeting, just to have a meeting. And then we sit there and we sit there for an hour and I literally just wasted not just my time, but everybody else's time all because we don't have any structure. So I'm a big fan of EOS. I'm sure that you have something that's very similar to a meeting structure. [00:28:15] Jason: We call it DoorGrow OS.  [00:28:16] Pete: DoorGrow OS. So DoorGrow OS. So if you're not part of DoorGrow, join DoorGrow and get on the OS. That's like number one, right? Because if you just get your meetings in order, you will see an increase in productivity just like that. So by the way, the maintenance team that I built, they always reported to me, even when I sold, until the day I sold the company. I just had a soft spot for them. I like maintenance. I know I'm weird that way, but I really did. And so they reported to me. My other team, I had other supervisors. I actually had supervisors in Mexico that were managing the other team members in Mexico. And that supervisor report to somebody in the U. S. or to report directly to me. But I still had my weekly meeting with my team every week. And we had our OS and one of the questions I asked every week, there's two questions that were always number one was always. "What can I do as the business owner to make your job easier?" I think there's a, I think there's a sphere, a circle, right? My job is to take care of my team. My team's job is to take care of the client. The client's job is to take care of the business and the business job is to take care of me. That's the circle right? So no the client is not always right. And let's do what we have to do to make sure that if we did mess up, we want to make it right. And I get all that. But how can I make my team's job easier? And that could be, I need to go talk to Sandy in accounting because she's not doing something or it means, "Hey, can you create this report for me?" I need a whatever it is. What can I do? Then the last question I asked on every meeting was what is your stress level on a scale of one to 10? And this was really important because it does two things. Number one, if somebody is a 10 plus for three weeks in a row, they are ready to punch out. Yeah. No one wants to work in a stressful environment for more than if we can see that Hey, it's summer, we're a little short staffed, you're going to be stressed for next, six to eight weeks, but there's a, but we're going to do X, Y, and Z to get out of it, I get it and people will handle stress for a short period of time. [00:30:05] The second thing is, believe it or not, sometimes people are stressed out and has nothing to do with you or your company. I know we all think it's about us and our company, but personal stuff. So one time I actually. And so if anybody's 10 plus and I want to talk to them, I do it off the meet. Like we have a one on one say, "Hey, stay on everybody else. Get off the meeting, whatever." Yeah. And I had this one lady 10 plus and I said, "Hey you're usually a two what's going on. My brother got hit by a car right now." What this does is everybody's always asking me how how can I, how can I bring my team, my remote team into our culture. This is a great way, right? Because at the end of the day, just like you, you want to give time to your owner clients and you want to build relationships, you want to build relationships with your remote team. And so by, by taking an interest in them as human beings. [00:30:52] Right. It doesn't mean you have to give them, I'm not going to, I didn't fly down and give them a whole bunch of money. I just listened and I cared that her brother was doing okay. I would ask, and it was just an emotional human thing. My team, if your team, if your remote team know that you actually do care about them. So if your remote team knows that you care about them, they're not going to leave you for a 50 cents more or a dollar more an hour. They're just not. Because most of the time, if you're paying them a fair wage. They are making more than enough money to cover their, what I call their nut, just to cover their living expenses. So they're not going to leave because the grass isn't always greener and they are freaking happy. [00:31:28] If you make your team happy by asking them, how can I help? How can I make your job easier? And letting them know that you care about them as people. That's the, that's like a number three question I get, right? Number one is how do I train them? Number two is where do I find them? [00:31:41] Number three is how do I make a part of the team? This is how you make a part of the team, right? By, by advocating and just throwing a bunch of throwing a bunch of stuff on them and letting them go. That's not how you do it. And by micromanaging, I'm saying, I want to see all the screenshots. I want you to write down everything you did from this time to this time. [00:31:57] And if you take a 15 minute break, I need you to punch out and punch in. Right. You said it earlier. You manage by results. That's what I do. Do I care if you put 40 hours a weekend? I really don't. I'll pay you for 40. But if you get if if you're available and I need you, right. So I have managed on availability first, it had to be available. [00:32:16] So we have policy. We use Slack. If I Slack you, you Slack me back within 30 minutes. If I email you, you email me back within four hours. If we have a meeting, you're on video and you're in your home office. None of this Starbucks crap, none of this on the beach crap, like you're in your home office, you're working, right? [00:32:30] So availability is number one. Then number two is KPIs. Are you meeting or exceeding your KPIs? Number three, and if I have the right KPIs, I can just look and if it's green, I know that position is doing well. And then number three is escalations. Am I getting calls from our clients or from internal members of the company saying that you're not, that you can't, that you're not doing your job or you're not getting back to them or whatever. [00:32:53] Those are the three things I need to know. I don't need to know that you're moving your mouse every 30 seconds. I could care less on that. If I got those three things, I know, and again, I know I have the right people because I hired them based on my core values or the company's core values. [00:33:06] Jason: Yeah, totally. We do a lot of the similar things at DoorGrow. Like one of my mentors would say, cadence is culture. And I really believe that the cadence of your meetings creates the culture. It really does. And this is where you're able to set the culture with your team. And we ask questions like, where are you stuck? How can we support you? We do caught being awesome. We, and I think what team members really want more than money, a lot of entrepreneurs, we like money, right? We don't hate money. And so we assume mistakenly that's the highest priority for all of our team members. Well, I'll just give them bonuses or I'll pay them more. The reality is most team members. With the exception of maybe entrepreneurs and salespeople, most everybody else on the planet would prefer once their basic needs are met, financially would prefer to be recognized rather than get a bonus. And so creating the right cadence and creating a system like DoorGrow OS allows the team to be seen and recognized for their accomplishments strategically and moving the business forward. [00:34:03] And that prioritizes that we find that if you can get those three systems in place. The planning system, that's DoorGrow OS here at DoorGrow. The people system, we've got DoorGrow Hiring, Applicant Tracking System, etc. And the process system, we've got DoorGrow Flow and some other stuff. If you have these three systems in place, these are three of the biggest profit levers you can get in place. [00:34:23] And a lot of times people try to skip those three and jump right into profitability and micromanage through just more severe actions, more severe KPIs, and trying to control more. Thinking they can squeeze more blood from the stone when if they did these three profit levers, we've got clients that are hitting amazing profit margins. [00:34:42] They don't even have KPIs because they don't even need them because they trust their team members so much and their team members are really great culture fits and really motivated. And so focus on those three profit levers first, and you're going to make a lot more money. And really what happens is you get three times the output from good team members. [00:34:59] Easily and they can be anywhere. And what's, what I love about being able to have a remote team, we've got team members all over the place. Some of the U S Canada, Mexico, one's in London now, Philippines. I'm able to hire the best. I'm able to hire the best, no matter where they are. And I'm able to also for certain roles, get, make sure it's really affordable for the business. [00:35:20] And so we're not, I'm not too particular about where they're at or what they're doing. It just needs to be a price point that we can afford. And I need a really good outcome. And if we can get that, then that's the ideal. And it's easier for me to run things remotely than if everybody were interrupting me coming into my office all day long, it's a lot quieter. [00:35:42] And I feel like everybody's able to get more done, but we're able to create that connection in our daily huddles. We check in with everybody, ask where they're stuck. We do one on ones like you were talking about. All these things to figure out where everybody are at. The one thing that we do that I think is really impactful is we have our team members do time studies, not as a punitive measure, as a way to support them and figure out how to get them additional support and help. [00:36:05] And this is where we figure out which, what are their plus and minus signs. So Adam, who's been on my team for almost, I think almost a decade now. Yeah. I'm like nine years. And he started as a content writer and he's done multiple time studies and every time he gets really honest with me, he's these are the things I don't enjoy doing anymore. [00:36:21] I'm not enjoying doing all this writing. I'm, what do you enjoy? I enjoy interacting with the clients. He now manages our entire department for websites, branding, all this. He's got a whole team under him. Whereas nobody initially would have thought, Hey, Adam is a manager, but he by default naturally became one because we just got him the support he needed. [00:36:40] And so he's been, he, and that's how we've been able to retain Adam. And the cool thing about retaining team members is they're like wine. They get better with time. Better and better. And so Adam knows lots of ins and outs in the business. He's super adaptable and versatile, and we're able to use them for billing related stuff and website stuff. [00:36:58] And there's so many things over time that he's developed and absorbed and learned. He can run significant pieces of the business for me if necessary.  [00:37:07] Pete: Well, I'll give you a funny story because, here I am teaching and telling you, oh, here's how hire people. Right? So when I first started VPM Leon, who is our onboarding guy now came over and he was with me at mind and he was with me at empire. [00:37:20] So I've known Leon and I knew he had our core values, right? And so we're like, maybe eight months in and I go to one of my business partners and I go, "Hey man, I don't think Leon's working out," and he's like, "really?" he did the, I called the Mongolian reversal, right? Because he basically takes my words and he puts them right back at me. [00:37:34] He goes "let me ask you what's his job description?" And it's crickets. So I'm like, "yeah, he don't really have a job description." He's " what's his KPIs?" I'm like, "yeah, we haven't really got to that." So he's like, "how much have you trained him?" And I'm like, "all right, enough." [00:37:45] Basically, Leon was the right guy. I just didn't know what he's supposed to do. So how did he know what he's supposed to do? So then I got serious about the job description. And then what we realized is Leon was running about two hats, maybe three hats. It's really like he, he was good at one of them. [00:38:01] So we ended up hiring another guy, Angelino, and gave that hat away. And now Leon just runs and now he is. Thriving and exceeding all of the metrics that we put in his place. And he's the happiest he's ever been. And even though, this stuff, sometimes you have to continuously, make sure that you're doing it. [00:38:20] Jason: Oh yeah. We had a conversation last night about a team member that we realized they weren't doing some things right. And Sarah put it back in my face. She's well, did you train them on this? And I was like, No, I didn't. I made a mistake in training. I thought they would understand it in my superficial explanation. [00:38:38] And yeah,  [00:38:39] Pete: it's shortcuts, right? Those three things that you put out there, the hiring and the process, it sounds so easy, right? But we know it's tedious. And there's, that's a, that's the reason. Why most entrepreneurs who are most of 'em, are visionaries, right? A lot of guys start business with visionaries. [00:38:53] They're not in the details. They don't like doing that. It's not natural, right? I need an integrator. They need a, they need an integrator. I'm guessing Sarah's the integrator. I'm the integrator. I'm guessing you're the visionary, right? So they need an integrator to, to literally do that stuff and you get, like I said you, when you do it you get it back in perpetuity, like it just, once the system is complete, it's just tweaking. It's not rebuilding, once, and and but a lot of visionaries, they skip that part because they don't like that part. [00:39:18] Yeah. I agree. It's from hire a consultant or hire the, hire somebody that, that likes that stuff.  [00:39:23] Jason: Yeah.  [00:39:24] Sarah: And I love that you just keep like, thank you for continuously driving home the point. Like you have to train people. You have to. And a lot of times what we see is we see doesn't matter your location. [00:39:34] Doesn't matter your size. Doesn't even matter what industry you're in. People hire out of pain, which makes sense, but they're in so much pain that they're like, Oh, they think as soon as they hire somebody, they're like, Oh, like I'm, it's solved. It's not solved yet because you haven't trained them.  [00:39:48] It's still your problem until they are properly trained. And it does take time. So for a period of time, when you hire somebody, your life is going to get worse. You're going to be taking on more if you want them to do a good job That is what has to happen because if you hire somebody and you're like, "here just have it like baptism by fire figure it out go ahead and do it." [00:40:09] It's not going to work out. You're going to be frustrated They're going to be frustrated and it looks bad for both people and then you guys are both frustrated at each other and you're like Why are they not working out? And this person is like I didn't even get training. I don't like you're mad at me all the time. [00:40:22] And I just I don't even know what to do, but you didn't tell me what to do. Help me.  [00:40:25] Pete: I'm not going to hire people because I just, there's no good people out there. Right. It's just, when I was telling you that story about training the maintenance team, I was trained about two hours a day on the maintenance, which is a little too much, probably an hour and a half is probably the maximum we can take. [00:40:37] But I was doing two hours. That didn't mean that my 10 hour day. was still a 10 hour day. It became a 12 hour day because I still had 10 hours of work. I had to do, I just took on more, two hours of training. And a lot of times they ask more, a lot of times it's even more than that because as you're training, what I have found, and maybe you guys see the same thing is as I'm training, I actually learned a lot more about my processes and about my company, and then I realized, oh. [00:41:00] There's no policy here. Oh, there's no field for that. Oh, that's just in my head. However, I feel that day I'm going to, I'm going to judge on that. And so I, there was a lot of work that I ended up having to do as I'm creating the, to training, oh man, this process is not exactly at all what I thought. [00:41:16] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, Pete, this has been an awesome conversation. We appreciate you coming on the show. Why don't you tell everybody just a little bit about VPM solutions. Do a quick plug and how they can reach out and connect with you.  [00:41:30] Pete: Yeah. So, thanks for that. So VPM solutions is an online platform that connects property management companies with remote team members. [00:41:38] It's a direct hire, so they don't work for VPM. They work directly for you. You negotiate the hourly rate. There is no upfront cost and there's no fee to use the site. So it's all free for the company managers. The way VPM makes money is the virtual assistant. Pays 10%. So when they apply to a job, they have a breakdown of this is how much hourly rate that I'm applying for. [00:41:59] It is how much that BPM charges a platform fee. And this is how much that I'll get. We also have about 20, I think 23 free training. So, there's training on the site from fair housing to marketing, social media, to pro we have a flagship property manager, one on one courses. It's about nine 12, 12 courses, nine hours of content. [00:42:20] Wow. And it's there just to teach folks the basics of property management. No, you're not going to hire them and they're going to be able to run and be a property manager for you, but they're going to know the ins and outs of the verbiage of just the life cycle, like high level stuff. But it's our attempt to get people trained up so that when you, so that when you get them, they're not like that, at least they're crawling. [00:42:44] Right. Yeah. They have a little bit of deal, a little bit of information. And then we also have we also have some free resources that are on the side as well. Like we have I think we have 50 job descriptions with this profiles that we assume, assume assumptive this profiles. [00:43:00] We also have like org charts, like what you should, or chart should be as you grow your business. And then we also have just a list of all the vendors and resources and all the different Facebook groups and all of the conferences that are out there for profit management. [00:43:13] Matter of fact, you're actually on that site by the way, as a vendor. So, yeah. So. That's what we do. And then we also offer what we call the white glove service. It's a free service that helps you go through the hiring process. Because we, what we realized early on, it's a do it yourself platform, but what we realize is most people don't have a hiring process and no idea what to do. [00:43:34] So we guide them. Now your team your clients probably have a good hiring process, but we'll offer, like we'll offer that free white glove service to them as well, if they want to come in and just. Need a little bit of help. What should they ask before they interview? There's some red tape. [00:43:47] Like we say, you get a disc profile, and then the, we have these courses that they take, they get certifications, you can search based on those certifications. So it's really the only platform literally built for property management.  [00:43:57] Jason: Love it. Yeah. Very cool. We'll check it out. So everybody make sure you check out Pete Neubig's VPM solutions. [00:44:04] Take a look at that. And Pete, thanks for being on the show today. It's good conversation.  [00:44:08] Pete: Yeah. Thanks guys. Thanks Jason. Thanks Sarah. Appreciate you.  [00:44:11] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow or add more doors or you're struggling with dealing with your team, reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:44:19] We can help you with this. We do this all the time. We would love to support you. We have clients that are easily going from, we can help you scale anywhere from zero to a thousand plus, and anybody can do this in the next three to five years. We would love to support you, help you scale your business and help you save collapse a lot of time and not have to go through a make. [00:44:37] So many mistakes in your business. And so until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:44:42] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:45:09] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Last time we talked about the difference between cold and warm leads. So how do you take this information and use it to grow your property management business? Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they reveal the top strategies and DoorGrow secrets for growing a property management business. You'll Learn [01:09] Strategy 1: The Neighbor Strategy [07:33] The 3 kinds of neighbors to target [11:59] Strategy 2: The Review Strategy [16:26] Strategy 3: Real Estate Agent Referrals [20:26] Strategy 4: Presenting to Groups [25:32] Strategy 5: Product Research Interviews Tweetables “Not all leads are equal.” “There is just so much abundance, and if you put yourself in a scarcity mindset, you're going to experience that for sure.” “There is no shortage of business if you're a property manager.” “This like scarcity mindset, we have to kill it. We have to get out of it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Especially in the U S like there is no shortage of business if you're a property manager.  [00:00:08] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. [00:00:23] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:00:42] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow along with Sarah Hull, co founder and COO of DoorGrow now let's get into the show. [00:01:09] All right. So the topic we decided to talk about today is how to get the best leads for property management. We talked about previously the difference between cold and warm leads, right? So not all leads are equal. And if you missed that episode, go check that out. I highly recommend it. It will save you a ton of money and time, wasting your energy, cash effort, et cetera. So today we're going to talk about some of the best strategies. We're not going to go into a lot of detail. If you want to go deeper with us, you can reach out and we can coach you through this stuff and help you grow your business without spending a bunch of money on marketing. [00:01:51] All right. So why don't we kick this off and we can tell them a little bit about the neighbor strategy, which we have a really cool training on that we will give to the audience for free. We'll tell you how you can get it. Let's do it. So, do you want to intro that one?  [00:02:07] Sarah: No, you do it, because this is your whole thing. [00:02:10] You set up the whole page, so you do it. I don't want to miss anything.  [00:02:14] Jason: So, the Neighbor Strategy is a really simple concept. And the concept is, you probably have gotten a phone call before, at your property management office, And somebody said, "Hey, do you manage in X area, in some sort of area?" [00:02:30] And the answer was no. And you just said "no." Or your team just said "no." And they hung up and said, "nope! We don't. Sorry!" And that is a perfectly good lead that somebody, one of your neighbors would love to have. And you just threw it in the garbage. So the analogy I use, if you go to neighborstrategy.Com and get this free training, you'll learn how to make this strategy work, but it's really simple. Our clients never get told no. They reach out to neighboring property management companies to just explain this. "Hey, sometimes I get calls for your area and I usually just throw that gold in the garbage. Would you like to have it?" And they always say yes. And in that I teach how to convert, even if that's a cold lead that came in for them, I teach you how to convert that or have your neighbors convert that.  [00:03:23] If you share the neighborstrategy.Com landing page with them so they can learn the training how to convert that from a cold lead 10 percent close rate into a 90 percent close rate warm lead. So you're able to refine this gold for them, give it to them, and they can then get this gold and they're getting business. And so we've got clients that are doing that with each other that are in neighboring markets. You can even do this with property management companies that are in your market that focus on a different niche than you. [00:03:52] So if you do single family residential largely or small multi, there might be commercial companies and they get asked, "Hey, do you, can you also manage my rental home" and "no," and they throw it in the trash. You would probably like to have that, right? And so the neighbor strategy is a simple way and you can stack and add neighbors all around your market neighboring property management companies. [00:04:15] Capturing some of that rain that they can't capture that could go to you and companies that are in your market that are a different niche than you, and I give you scripts. I give you the language to use and I have drawings and I explain how this all works and how to convert these from a cold lead into a warm lead and how to get your neighboring partners to do this as well. It's really a simple strategy that is super effective.  [00:04:39] So I highly recommend you check out neighborstrategy.Com. Go get this free training. We want to give this out because we know that if you have neighbors that are doing this strategy, then everybody wins. Everybody benefits. This benefits the entire industry, and it's really simple. Like leads should not be getting lost. And we don't want them just going and searching on Google, becoming cold, desensitized, looking at cheap pricing and becoming terrible potential clients. That hurts the entire industry. So this is a way to benefit the entire industry, which is part of our mission here at DoorGrow. [00:05:16] Sarah: I think with the neighbor strategy, let's just address the elephant in the room because everyone goes, "I don't want people to know what I know. Like I want to be different. And like, I want to keep my knowledge a secret, right?" that's why I hear this all the time where they're like, I don't want anybody else to know. And it's that kind of mindset that really holds us back because there is just so much abundance, and if you put yourself in a scarcity mindset, really, that's like, you're going to experience that for sure. [00:05:43] Like for sure. Especially in the U S like there is no shortage of business if you're a property manager. Most people do not know what property managers are. The ones that know what property managers are, they might not have a great perception of what property managers do why because they may have been burned in the past. They may have had like a really bad experience. [00:06:06] They may just go, "oh, well, yeah but you just do like rent collection like I could do that myself," and any of us property managers that have had a conversation like that, it's hard to not laugh when someone's like "I could do it myself." You're like, "okay, do it yourself. Call me when you're ready. Do it yourself, and if you blow it up so bad, I probably won't even want to help you at that point because it's just going to be a huge mess for me." But there's so much that goes into it, right? So we have to also kind of keep in mind that if we really think about it, like you can kind of break this down by almost any sector, right? [00:06:42] So if you see like a fast food chain, like Burger King, Wendy's, McDonald's, very, very rarely are they the only one in a huge area. They do better when there's more of them, like, packed closer. So, it's funny because you notice this when we drive around. Every time there's like a CVS, we'll see a CVS, and very close by, somewhere there's a Walgreens. Why would that be, right? So, why do these multi million dollar companies choose to put a CVS here and right across the street, a Walgreens? If they were worried about competition, do you think that they would do that? Hell no. They'd be like, "well, if CVS is there, I'm going way over here." But they know that by putting two similar options close together, it's actually going to draw in more business. [00:07:33] Property management works very similarly. And the other thing to kind of keep in mind with this is I think there are three like neighbors kind of to target. One is neighbors that are outside of your area. So if you cover. Like Austin, but I don't go to Round Rock. Well, then find somebody in Round Rock, right? Like find people who border the area that you cover. That's the first one. The second one is find people that cover the same area that you cover, but in a different sector, like Jason said. So maybe I only do residential. I might want to partner with somebody who does commercial. Because odds are, at one point in time, I'm going to find somebody who wants commercial, and I don't do it, and I'd love to have somebody to pass that on to, and vice versa. [00:08:20] And the third one, and this is the one where everybody goes, "I'm not doing that," just test it and try it. And I used to do this myself, so I'm not steering you in a direction that I would never have done. Find someone in your area does the same exact thing that you do now. Everybody here goes, "Whoa, now that's scary. I'm not giving business away to my competitors." Well, here's the thing is not all business is business that you want to take. And that's something that you really have to get solid in is what business, what properties, what clients, what tenants do I want to take? And what do I want to have in my portfolio? Because if you work with us at DoorGrow. We train everyone on the cycle of suck. And it's super easy to get like trapped in that. And it's because you just take on everything. You do not want to take on everything. And it doesn't mean that they're a bad client Maybe they're just not a fit for what you do. [00:09:16] Maybe you could tell like the relationship isn't probably going to be super great. So when I was running my business, I was happy to give those off to somebody else. Why? Because I would rather them work with another property manager, even if it is my competitor, I would rather give that to a property manager so that they at least have some kind of chance with their rental property versus, "well, I'm just going to do it myself." [00:09:39] And we all know, guys, we all know how that works. So those are the three that you would want to target with the neighbor strategy.  [00:09:45] Jason: Yeah, didn't you get some leads coming from a neighbor?  [00:09:49] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I got mostly from like neighbors that were outside of my area. My competitors were the type that would just take on anything. [00:10:00] And it was fun to me because I was like, "well, if they're not a fit for me..." because I was a lot more picky. So if they're not a fit for me, if then I'm not taking them anyway. It's not like, "Oh, well, I'm going to give Jason this lead that I want." No, you're not going to give away leads that you want, right? [00:10:17] You're just, if you don't want to take the business, if it's not a fit, if you like, it's just not going to work out, then does it hurt to give it away? No. They're going to have a better experience with some property manager than trying to do it on their own. And we want investors to have a good experience with their rental properties, even if it's not with you, because they're going to then buy more investment properties, right? [00:10:43] And this is going to like promote the industry. So this like scarcity mindset, we have to kill it. We have to get out of it.  [00:10:51] Jason: Yeah, I think one month you have five doors from a neighboring property manager one month.  [00:10:56] Sarah: I got like 17.  [00:10:57] Jason: Yeah Okay. Yeah, so and that's from one right? And so If people are intentional, especially if you're in you know larger markets if you can hit all the people that are around your market or people that get sometimes get called or Asked about your market then you can get a bunch of business, right? [00:11:18] It can add up all right for sure. [00:11:20] Sarah: Like we even have clients. We have a bunch of clients like in the like la orange county area, but it's so crazy there with the traffic like, you know, like yeah on the map It says it could take you like 15 minutes but because of traffic it might take you an hour and a half or like two hours, right? So we even have like clients in our program that like refer business back and forth just because they know, because of the traffic, they're like, "well, if it's on the North point, I just don't want to take it." So that's another... and that's people in the same area that do the same thing that they do. And it makes your life easier because now your operational costs are going to be lower because you're not trying to drive like two hours to go do an inspection.  [00:11:59] Jason: All right. Let's talk about reviews next. Cool. So one strategy that's helped some of my clients add easily 200 doors in a year, if they get this game dialed in is online reviews. Now, all of you know this game you think, and a lot of you try to play this game and you think you know how to get reviews, but what we focus on at DoorGrow is focusing on reviews as if it's a sales lead, like putting it into your pipeline, following up and getting the majority of every new tenant and every new owner to give you a review. [00:12:34] And there's a way of doing this so that it doesn't sound slimy. And it doesn't sound like a used car salesman in a way that they want to help you back and reciprocate. And we have scripts for this. We have ways that we help clients do this. And we have a tool to facilitate that and make the process even easier, which is GatherKudos, which any of you can sign up for GatherKudos at GatherKudos.com. It can integrate with things like Property Meld, and it just makes a review funnel that makes it easier for you to get valid feedback in your business, whether it's good or bad. And if it's good, it pushes them to choose a review site and gives them directions how to do it. So it just lubricates that process, makes it so much easier for your prospects to leave good reviews. [00:13:21] Because we know that the negative reviewers are highly motivated and the good reviewers need a little bit of motivation, and so we have a training called Reputation Secrets where we teach how this can work super effectively. We've got clients that are crushing their competition in getting more reviews because they're getting almost all of their tenants and owners to get reviews if they really build this growth engine out. They can at least get the majority of each new tenant and owner to give them reviews. [00:13:51] And if you're growing and adding doors, you're getting new tenants, you're getting new owners, and you can then be also getting new reviews. And if you're crushing it at the review game, that's better than having the top spot on Google because reviews function like warm leads.  [00:14:06] Sarah: And then James and Brian, when they came into the program, like when Brian came on, I think he said they had some online reviews, but they were either like a two something or a three something online. So like not super great, right? Why? Because all the people who were angry were like, "I'm going to be a keyboard warrior." And then they focused on the strategy and they got up to over four stars. And I think that helped them break the thousand door barrier. Yeah. They had added like over 400 doors in one year. [00:14:35] And this was part of the strategy that helped them do that.  [00:14:38] Jason: Yeah. And less than a year. So the cool thing about this strategy of building this particular growth engine is that this is one that is very easily done by your team. This doesn't have to be your BDM. It doesn't have to be a salesy person. It doesn't have to be the business owner. This one can easily be done by your team and it can be systematized. It can just be part of your tenant and owner onboarding process if you build this engine correctly. So, and I guess that's all we probably need to say about that one. Yeah, it's a really great strategy. Really simple great strategy  [00:15:13] Sarah: It's free. It's a free strategy. This is not costing you any kind of money. You're not, you know spending money on marketing or advertising or ads or nothing like that. And it's really great I had so many clients contacting me or prospective clients contacting me because they're like, "oh I saw your review."  [00:15:33] Jason: Yeah, this strategy also helps boost your local SEO. If you're familiar with local SEO or ranking, Google looks at review diversity. Which means getting reviews from lots of different channels. So GatherKudos, and our method helps with you getting more reviews, not just on Google, but also Yelp and maybe Angie's List, City Search, Thumbtack, whatever you have or using, right? [00:15:57] And so, review diversity. review quantities, so getting more reviews on each of those channels, and the review ratings, like getting good ratings. This helps filter out the bad ratings as well and helps you capture it locally so you can actually do something to mitigate that and help those people, which is what they usually really want. [00:16:16] And so it makes the whole process easier. So we highly recommend that strategy. Very easy growth engine to build out if you understand how and we train our clients on that. So let's talk about the one that probably is one of the fastest methods to grow a property management business. I mean, one of our clients that added over 400 doors at another client that I had 310 in doors in just a year. This strategy. If you have, especially if you have a full time BDM, and if you don't, we can help you with the hiring piece and training of a BDM so you don't make mistakes there because we get a lot of people coming from BDM coaching companies and BDM placement companies that do not have good experiences. [00:16:58] And then we help them clean that up. And people don't even know that we focus on that. So this would be referrals from real estate agents or from a variety of other sources that we talk about. But this can be very effective, but usually is very ineffective. Most property managers try to focus on this and get very few referrals on a monthly basis. [00:17:23] Sarah: Yeah. And I was lumped in that too. And then back in my insurance days, cause I was doing insurance and I was doing property management when I first started out. And I was like, "Ooh, I'll get referrals from everyone. And it'll be so great." Cause everybody would just send me business. And I was doing everything the wrong way. And I wasn't getting a lot of referrals. And then things started to shift when I realized, "Hey, this is not working the way that I wanted it to work." So I had to make some changes to make it work better. But everyone like, they just always go about it the wrong way because this is like, this is a really common thought is like, "Hey, I'll get referrals. Like this is how a lot of businesses work is on referrals. So I'll just do that." And then what happens is they start to focus on getting referrals. They Don't know exactly how to make it work, but they just think "hey, it's simple like you should just be able to send me business," and then they wait and usually nothing comes in or if something comes in it's like, "thanks, but that's not really what I wanted."  [00:18:24] Jason: Yeah, the secret is you actually have to destroy the idea of getting referrals in the mind of the people you want referrals from and get something better. And so I touched on that on some previous episodes, if you dig around, but this is some of the really magical stuff that we share with clients, how they can get more real estate agents, connecting them to investors and close a lot more deals. And this creates warm leads. They're easy to close. They're early in the sales cycle. [00:18:54] You can charge more money than typical in these situations. And so it's a win, win for all three parties all the way around. This is a, this is the fastest way I know of to grow a property management business. It works really well, but there's a lot of pitfalls in this. There's a lot of mistakes. We've listened to phone calls of some of our, you know, clients, setters or BDMs trying to. [00:19:20] Like get relationships created with real estate agents and doing the outbound partner prospecting stuff that we talk about and there's a lot of failures and We have to coach them through this and it this is a and a growth engine that takes probably 90 days to build effectively to get to work effectively. The first 30 days you're going to build that engine from scratch and the second 30 days, we're going to make some major tweaks and changes. [00:19:48] And then the last 30 days is where you start to hit pay dirt, where we tweak things to get that last 10 percent of dialing things in. That gives you 90 percent of the results. And this is where the magic happens. And most people quit too early, don't do it enough. They just go present to a big real estate office meeting while people stare at their phones and wonder why nobody like gives them leads. And it doesn't work. And they're like, "I've tried referrals. I've tried that," you know, so we hear that all the time. You've not tried it the way that we do it cause it works. And if it's not working for you, you're doing it wrong. That's all I'll say.  [00:20:23] All right. So, let's talk about groups. [00:20:26] Let's talk about groups.  [00:20:28] Sarah: So can we talk about the big mistake of groups? Sure. . So everyone goes, oh, a group, I'll do a BNI.  [00:20:35] Jason: Oh yeah. wah wah. or a Chamber of Commerce. So we hear this all the time, like, "oh, I go to the BNI or I go to Chamber of Commerce" and I mean, that one's really simple. And to throw people a bone, we get asked this all the time, "well, I'm thinking to join a BNI group." would that be effective? The answer is usually no, because the way BNI works is you're going to have one expert in each category, which means there might be one real estate agent there you might be able to get a referral from. You'll have one of, one property manager, which is kind of nice. You don't have competition, right? [00:21:09] But the challenge is most of the people there are not your target audience, and a lot of them are not able to connect you to your target audience, and there are better groups available in which you can either create the group and own it, or you can go find groups that exist and be part of it, in which you can have an entire group of potential referral partners, or an entire group of potential clients. And that's probably the first big step is just like, if you're going to go hunting, go where the game actually is. So, now groups, we recommend you do groups after you get good at one on one. And the challenge is most people go and try and present to a group and they think this is going to be so great, and they have no way of collecting people's information that are interested in the group. They don't know how to optimize that. They don't know the things to say. They don't understand concepts like trial closes and getting people to buy into things. They don't understand how to create leverage and how to get leads. [00:22:10] You should be able to walk away from any group situation with leads and appointments. Yes. With scheduled appointments. And we teach our clients how to do this, how to optimize this, and how to identify and capture the people that are quick, early adopters, the people that take a little bit more nurturing, and the people that are a bit more skeptical. And this is something that you do throughout your presentation if you're doing it effectively, but you really, it doesn't make sense to go do a group presentation if you're not good at selling yet, and you're not good at one on one interactions, and you haven't built up, you know, the ability to close deals one on one, because groups, you're not going to close people in a group situation. [00:22:56] You don't close them. In a group situation, at best, you can get a one on one interaction typically scheduled, and then you can close them. So we need to teach you how first to be really good at one on one. And then you can graduate to doing the group thing, but don't waste a good group opportunity. These are not super common. [00:23:16] If somebody is like, "Hey, I'll let you come present to my group," and you blow it. Yeah. Yeah. You wasted all, like you wasted probably hundreds of doors of business that you could have gotten if it's a decent sized group. One of our clients went to a group, used a presentation that we gave him and he was able to close in his first time. He went to this group, it was a realtor investors association, real estate investor association, a rea group, whatever. And he was able to present to like 200, 300 people, the group had like 500 and he walked away and he had been stuck at like 60 doors for the first three or so years of his business. He couldn't figure out how to get ahead. He got 20 doors that month from doing one presentation. He got four or five owners. They each give him like four or five units or something like that. And he was able to add about 20 doors a month from just hanging out at this group. And being part of this group, and it's, he spent maybe max about five hours a month investing time into this group. [00:24:20] That is an amazing return. Five hours a month to get 20 doors a month, right? He was at 300 doors in six months of using the strategy. And then his business started to fall apart a little bit because he was adding too many doors. And back then, way back then, we didn't have the systems that we have to help clients with that problem. [00:24:42] We're like, we need to help clients solve that problem. We're good at solving that problem now. Like how do I deal with all these doors that I'm getting on? Which is a problem we think is super easy to create for clients to start adding an up doors that it gets painful. So groups can be very effective. [00:24:56] But make sure you get good at one on one first. You don't waste those opportunities. I've heard so many stories of wasted opportunities presenting to a group of real estate agents And then afterwards they're like, "I don't know. How'd I do? I don't know. I think I did okay. Some couple people came up to me and said I did all right."  [00:25:12] "Cool. Did you get any appointments or leads or anything scheduled?" [00:25:16] "Nothing," right? So and then maybe a lead here will trickle in like over time, but that's not effective. So a lot of these growth strategies they stack and they compound on each other.  [00:25:28] Let's touch on one more to wrap this up. Last one. This is a strategy we love to use with startups because startups they don't have a lot of confidence. They don't have a lot of knowledge. They're lacking a lot of knowledge about property management, and one of the big gaps in knowledge that they don't have that a lot of you that have been doing this for a long time and you've talked to a lot of owners is they don't understand their prospects' pain. [00:25:55] They don't understand the prospects concerns. They don't understand the language that their potential clients use, and they don't understand the objections that are preventing them and knowing all that. Sometimes can take people a decade to really dial in. And so our way of collapsing time on this dramatically quickly, like really fast is a technique called or strategy called product research interviews. [00:26:18] And this is also a great way to get your initial pool of clients, even if you're starting from zero. And so this strategy can work very well. I call this the Trojan horse of selling, but you're going to interview and we have the script for the interview. We have the four phase process for doing this. If you do this correctly, if you interview people that have rental properties and you do this effectively, you will be getting clients because getting clients is about having conversations with your target audience. And this gives you an excuse and an in to be able to get to know your target audience, to ask them questions and allow them to help you and give you advice and to why they are not currently working with a property manager and then be able to deal with all these and learn how to deal with all these objections and then how to do the ultimate pitch and how to solicit them in a non salesy way to do and give you another opportunity to pitch. But you get to pitch during this interview, you get to pitch your services. [00:27:22] To people that may not have considered property management before. So this is an easy way to get your foot in the door and get some of your first initial clients and build a relationship of trust. And that can be very effective. Did you want to say anything about product research interviews?  [00:27:35] Sarah: No. Michael used it. He was still over the 200 something door mark, and he used it, and I think he said he added like five or six doors in one week, and that was only after doing a few phone calls.  [00:27:48] Jason: He said 10. He added 10. I don't remember. Something like 10.  [00:27:51] Sarah: So, I don't remember exactly how many. I can go back and look at the stats. [00:27:54] Jason: Yeah, Michael Sullivan, he was on one of our podcast interviews we just did recently, a really great episode. Highly recommend you check it out. But he was like, "well, I'll try this and I'm an experienced property manager." He just came up with a different excuse to interview people instead of saying, "Hey, I'm starting a business and want to get some feedback." [00:28:10] He used a different strategy and use this strategy. And he was able to add doors from the first person that he interviewed. And we've had clients have that situation happen as well. So this can work. It's not just for starters, but it can work for anybody. In fact, this is the strategy I use when I first started our mastermind. [00:28:29] I did product research interviews to figure out what, how can I create the ultimate mastermind? Cool. I'll just interview people and ask them, what do you want? It was a little bit more complex than that, but that's kind of the idea. And that allowed me then to say, "Hey, would you be interested in this if I launched it and it had some of what you mentioned and the stuff that I'm pitching you on?" And everybody says, yes. And then I probably closed about half of them. And so that's how I started the mastermind so that I had a nice cohort and a pool of people to kick things off with. So, and this is one of the strategies I've used over and over again. [00:29:05] With new product launches or new offers to figure out how do I make this as good as possible? And this will help you make your product and your offer and your pitch as good as possible Really cool strategy and we've got the goods on how to do that as well And we've got other growth strategies, but these are some great ways to get leads that costs less money. [00:29:26] They take less time and they get you more warm leads and you'll close more deals more easily at a higher price point. And then if you do cold lead advertising, so there you go. And that's how to add lead, like get leads without doing SEO, without doing pay per click, without doing content marketing, without doing social media marketing, without doing pay per lead services, internet marketing. [00:29:50] You don't have to do internet marketing in order to grow your business and to grow faster than those that are. So, and that's it. Anything else? Nope. All right then until next time to our mutual growth, everybody make sure to join our free facebook group Doorgrowclub.Com. We put trainings in there. We give out information, and our goal in that group is to nurture you and warm you up so you can trust us and become one of our clients. We then can change your life and that's what we want to do is to transform this industry. Until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone.  [00:30:26] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Real estate agent referrals can be a great source for leads in a property management business, but this strategy is often challenging and confusing for property management entrepreneurs. Join property management experts Jason Hull and Sarah Hull as they dive into the world of real estate agent referrals and why they often don't work for property management entrepreneurs. Learn how to shift the focus from seeking referrals to creating impactful introductions that connect you with the right clients. You'll Learn [02:24] The Problems with Trying to Get Referrals from Realtors [05:39] How to be Memorable to Your Clients [10:31] How Going Deeper can Land You More Deals [15:24] Challenges with Asking for Referrals [17:44] Don't Make Realtors Sell for You + Building Confidence Tweetables “We have maybe three or four different bodies or parts of ourselves. We have our intuitive, we have our mental, we have our emotional, and we have our physical.” “What I found was they'll have a logical mental memory of something, but a logical mental memory of something alone doesn't really stay there unless there's emotion connected to it.” “If they're not excited or feel something, why would they be motivated to give you referrals or even remember you or think about you?” “Depth is where the magic happens.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They wake up every morning wanting something and it's not property management and it's not like helping their clients with property management that is not at the forefront of their mind, their heart and their desires. What do they want? They want money. They want more real estate deals.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it you think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:00:59] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:20] My iPad dinged. I didn't turn on do not disturb when it started. I need my— I have to have a pre flight checklist like right there. Like I got to do it. So, it's on do not disturb now. By the way, I was talking with a client this week. And he said that he had some of my videos playing in the background and he forgot and he came back into the room and he heard this voice talking, and he's like, "why is Ed Norton talking in my office?" You know who Ed Norton is?  [00:01:55] Sarah: No.  [00:01:56] Jason: All right for those of you listening, you probably know he's an actor, very famous actor, but apparently I might sound like Ed Norton, so I don't know.  [00:02:05] Sarah: I'm one of those people, don't ask me like, "oh do you know like this?" Don't name drop with me, I don't know who they are. [00:02:10] Jason: She doesn't care.  [00:02:12] Sarah: I don't, especially if it's like a celebrity, now I really don't know.  [00:02:16] Jason: Yeah, she's like, they're not paying me. [00:02:19] Sarah: I have no idea who they are.  [00:02:20] Jason: Okay.  [00:02:20] Sarah: I don't know. Alright. I can maybe name like five celebrities.  [00:02:24] Jason: So our topic is, and we had a question asked about this in our Facebook group in the DoorGrow Club. So if you're interested in what I told him and the coaching that— I created a video and I put it into there, go check it out You can go to doorgrowclub.Com. But the topic was— He was basically frustrated about getting agent referrals. Like how do you make this work? So a lot of property managers think a great lead source would be getting referrals from real estate agents, but we found that it doesn't work very well if you're asking for referrals. And so I wanted to talk about why real estate agent referrals in property management don't work. And maybe if you can understand why it doesn't work, you might be interested in reaching out to DoorGrow and learning how we make this work really well. So what typically happens with people that go out and they think "I'm going to go get some real estate agents to give me referrals 'cause they might know some investors." [00:03:23] Sarah: Yeah. And I did it too. So like, I'm guilty as charged, but it was like, "Hey, so if you ever know anybody who needs property management, then just like, let me know, like, here's my card, here's my information. Like, just give me a call." [00:03:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:03:36] Sarah: " Keep me in mind." It doesn't work.  [00:03:39] Jason: Or they'll go and like, "Hey, could I present to your office about property management?" and so they'll go do to the real estate office. They have their morning meeting, you know, in their office maybe once a week and they go present and they sit there and they pitch and talk about property management and how they're so good and all this stuff. And then at the end, they're sitting there insecure, wondering like, "Why was everybody just eating donuts and looking at their phone the whole time?" you know, and "nobody's coming up to me." And maybe one person says, "Hey, nice presentation," you know, and then you walk away with nothing, and they don't really care about you, right? So, why doesn't this work? Because a lot of people try this. Why aren't they getting tons of referrals from real estate agents? [00:04:22] Sarah: Well, there's a lot of different reasons. I think one of the big ones is we're just relying on people to remember you like "oh, hey if you need, you know If you come across somebody who needs property management, then you have to just remember that I do it and then hopefully You know, pass it on over to me." and they're not going to remember you unless there's a really good reason to there, especially if they don't see like a benefit in it for them. So if you're like, Oh yeah, who paints houses? It's like, now I have to go find people that paint houses. But very rarely do we have like this Rolodex in our head of, you know, people who do certain things. We do have connections to people who do things that we refer out to a lot. So for example, in real estate, you might know somebody that paints houses. You might know somebody that cleans. You might do, you know, know someone who does some like handyman work. Because if you've got a client who's buying a house and they're like, yeah, but I hate the color. It's like, "oh, don't worry. I'll just send you to John and he'll paint the whole thing for you, right?" But property management is a little bit different unless you're working with a lot of investors, then you probably just don't need to have a property manager, like in your Rolodex. So that's one of the first reasons why it doesn't work. [00:05:39] Jason: Okay. So, I like what you said about it not being memorable. So I'll talk about memory real quick. So we have, you could say that we have maybe three or four different bodies or parts of ourselves. We have our intuitive, we have our mental, we have our emotional, and we have our physical right? And I used to do, you know, some emotional processing work with people like I would help them work through emotional stuff. And what I found was they'll have a logical mental memory of something, but a logical mental memory of something alone doesn't, they don't retain it, or it doesn't really stay there unless there's emotion connected to it. And so. The example I like to share with people is I just asked him, what were you doing on the day of 9 11? And what was the weather like? And they can usually remember quite a bit in detail, even though it was quite long ago. And I say, what was the day like 2 days before? And they're like, "I have no idea," right? Because there's no emotion. Maybe if they were hypnotized, their logical brain could go, "yeah, I could, I remember this," but we don't really retain things well, if there is an emotion connected to it. So that's one of the reasons why they don't, they didn't feel anything in you talking to them. They don't, they're not excited. If they're not excited or feel something, why would they be motivated to give you referrals or even remember you or think about you? So the anchor that we've created with them is— And anchoring is a neurolinguistic programming tactic. You can do this very strategically and effectively. You can create anchors. You also can create emotional states in people by the way that you communicate and maybe even listen to this. You're like getting a little bit excited. You're feeling a little bit excited about getting agent referrals, but you still don't know how it works, right? So what I did is I just created a state in you just a little bit. All right. So, the reason I think agent referrals don't work is because real estate agents don't care about you and your business.  [00:07:39] Sarah: The other reason they don't care: why would they don't care about what somebody else is doing? They're not, you know walking around going. "Oh, how can I help you today? How can I help you today? And how can I help you?" They're like, "what am I doing? Like, what's on my plate today? What do I have to do?" And the sooner we realize, like, hey, people are just in their own little bubble. Like, they're worried about what is right in front of them. And like, what are the tasks that they have to focus on? And what's going on in their life? And what are they thinking? What are they feeling? They're not very often stepping outside of that to go like, "Oh what is he feeling today? And what is she feeling today? You know, what are you dealing with?" People are very concerned with, you know, what they've got going on and that's just, that's normal. So we need to kind of just understand that and then figure out, "well, okay, if that's the mindset and the headspace that people are in knowing that, what do we do differently?  [00:08:36] Jason: Yeah, I think we need to figure out like, what do they actually want?" They wake up every morning wanting something and it's not property management and it's not like helping their clients with property management that is not at the forefront of their mind, their heart and their desires. What do they want? They want money. They want more real estate deals. And so you have got to connect them getting more real estate deals to them connecting you to their investor clients. You've got to figure out how to make that connection. So we have this very well scripted out. We have our clients that are, let's talk about some results. Like some of our clients, one of our clients, one of our best success stories this year in less than a year has added 400 doors in less than a year without really focusing on paid advertising really at all, right? Contrast that. So they've broken the thousand door barrier. Another client came to us and they have I think 1300, 1700 doors and their BDM bought 322 leads from a lead service, like, I'll just say APM. They bought it from APM and they closed 18. They closed 18 in the last year of those. They got 18 doors in the last year. If you calculate what each of those probably costs and they have a full time BDM that they're paying to work this, they have a setter that they're paying. [00:09:56] Like this is expensive with the per deal acquisition costs must be ridiculous. If they spent all of that time and all of that money and all. You know, follow up and everything else doing the strategies that we teach a DoorGrow, they probably could have, they might've been able to double their portfolio over the last several years. They're just churning and burning through all this energy, time, focus, cash and effort. Like, it's super wasteful. So, one of our clients added 310 doors just using this strategy in a year from only five or six agents. So a couple of things, the reasons that agent referrals don't work, we've established, they don't care about you, they care about getting more deals. You've got to connect that you aren't making them feel something. They want to feel excited. They feel excited about getting more deals. You're creating a weak anchor. Other ways in which this isn't working is that. You're not really getting to know them well enough. There's not enough depth in the relationship or a connection. They're not going to connect you to somebody unless they feel really safe with you and they like you. And so a lot of people are trying to do this so superficially, like "let's go pitch to a whole group and maybe I'll magically get a bunch of leads that come in from them." There's no depth there. [00:11:14] There's a lot of width, right? You're hitting a lot of people, but depth is where the magic happens. This is probably the greatest secret I think that we teach in helping people grow and add doors rapidly is we just get them doing depth in a way that none of their competitors are doing it. Going deeper. That means more personal, more intimate, more one on one, like focusing on like in person or video, whatever's the deepest things that you can do, you're going to grow faster. So I think there's also a lack of depth is a challenge. I think also with why agent referrals don't work is because nobody comes up to them and says they need property management. This almost never happens. And if it does— [00:12:01] Sarah: If they do, they're not the ones you want to take on.  [00:12:03] Jason: Right.  [00:12:03] Sarah: Like, "Hey, I desperately need a property manager. Please help me. Like, I don't want that.  [00:12:08] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:09] Sarah: I want somebody who's we know without even asking any further questions, this is not going to be a great property to take on. [00:12:15] Jason: Yeah. Their hair has to be on fire or that like to call their agent up and say, "Hey, this rental property, it's a nightmare for me. I have this huge problem. I've got an eviction. I need to get done. It's a meth house. Like they, they burned down the back porch. Like it's leaking. Like they, like, they won't let us in. They've got a pit bull, right? Whatever, right? It's a nightmare." And for you to take it on, you would, it would probably— [00:12:42] Sarah: They're breeding dogs and the tenants were addicted to drugs. One's in rehab. One just died. Now we have I think there was like 12 dogs in the house. There were puppies. We had to do like a puppy rescue. [00:12:54] Jason: Oh gosh.  [00:12:55] Sarah: We've seen it all. Super fun as a property manager.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. The things you property managers have seen, right?  [00:13:00] Sarah: It's like, "oh, hey, you know what? Jason does property management. Let me call Jason." And Jason was like, "I don't want that." I'm like, "why? No. Like, thanks for thinking of me, I guess." And now, that almost, like, shoots you in the foot even worse, because now it's like, "hey, well, now I have something to give you, and I gave it to you, and you don't even want it?" [00:13:19] Jason: Right.  [00:13:19] Sarah: So now we're like taking what could be a good relationship and kind of saying like, yeah, well, thanks for that lead, but it's garbage. Yeah. Thanks for giving me the shittiest thing you could possibly find.  [00:13:30] Jason: Yeah. The worst thing you could do is finally get them to give you a referral. You've been bugging them over and over again. They're like, "here, somebody came to me, here you go. And can you help my client out?" And you're like. " Do I have to? Like, I don't want to change somebody else's dirty diaper." Like you don't want to deal with this. You don't want to deal with this problem.  [00:13:48] Sarah: Right. And it's probably not gonna be profitable for you. It's probably not like if I think if a lot of property managers ran a profit and loss statement, or like a cost analysis on each individual door, which some of those low rent doors would not be profitable for you, right?  [00:14:05] Jason: You should know some of those owners.  [00:14:07] Sarah: These are part of, yeah, these are part of knowing your financials. We have a whole course in here about it, but there are certain data that you should just know in your business, you should know which doors, you know, are profitable, which doors maybe are not so profitable, which clients are and are not profitable. You should know all of that. But if you really start to dig into that, you're right. You're going to see very clearly like, Hey. This one doesn't quite measure up to, you know, what we're hoping for. But if you're just waiting for somebody to go, "Hey, I need a property manager. Like that's what we're getting. We're getting the, "Oh my God, I have this like awful situation and now I need somebody like that's what we're waiting to get." [00:14:50] Jason: Yeah. I mean to expect that a bunch of people are just going to walk up to a real estate agent and say, "Hey, I need a property manager. Who do you got that almost never ever happens. It's super rare. Now, some of you have gotten some referrals from agents and it might've been some sort of scenario like that. Like they came up to him and said, "Hey, they need a property manager," but it's probably super rare. So you're probably not getting, you know, 10, 20, 30 doors a month from this engine. The other challenge why agent referrals don't work is a lot of real estate agents don't even work with investors. Most real estate, 50 percent of real estate agents in the last year, the stat I heard was they didn't even do a single deal. [00:15:38] Sarah: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was talking with a client, I think yesterday with anyone with them and he's in the Miami market and like in his like city alone. I think there was something like 60, 000 agents, but out of those 60, 000 agents, like, you know, they're not all active and then out of the ones that are active, like, what are the ones that I've actually done a deal? What are the ones that actually do multiple deals? And then what are the ones that actually work with investors?  [00:16:04] Jason: The ones that actually work with investors must be a pretty small pool. Like maybe they'll do a deal occasionally, but how many agents are regularly working with investors? All the time, and they have a Rolodex and a pool of a bunch of investors that they have connections to not very many. So, our client that added 310 doors in a year, he did it from only 5 or 6 real estate agents he told me. That was it, but he said he tried calling a 1000 to find those 5 or 6. So that's a lot of deals from very few. He had to kiss a lot of frogs to find a few princesses. Right? Or princes, whatever. So, now, a lot of real estate agents are working with investors. So you need to find the ones that do. So this is another reason why referrals don't work. You go pitch to a office meeting. You might as well just like— well, I'm not going to give away all our strategy, but you might as well just ask, like how many of you work with investors? If no one's raising their hand, you might as well just end and say, "cool, if you find anybody, send them our way." And that's my time, right? You don't need to be wasting your time. Another reason referrals in general don't work is that you don't even go to the right audience. So if you're going to real estate agents that don't have investors, that's the wrong audience. Some go even worse than they go to a BNI group where there might be one real estate agent only, or they go to a chamber of commerce, or some sort of networking groups and they're like, "Hey, everybody, and nobody there really has rental properties. Maybe like, they're not even an investor or they don't have connections to investors. And so those kind of things can be a big time, suck or a waste of time when there's way more effective strategies. So now, another reason why referrals, agent referrals for property managers don't work is you are, if you're asking for referrals, which is the wrong thing to actually ask for, you're expecting them to sell for you. So, the idea of a referral, if we break this down, is somebody's going to come up to them. And say, "I have this problem. They're going to say, let me sell you on this idea of getting a property manager and then connect you to somebody." You're expecting them to sell for you. The way our clients are winning this game is we've set it up so that you get to sell. The client, our client gets to sell, not the real estate agent. So what we teach instead is to focus on getting introductions. So, so that is— and if you want to learn more about that, we recommend you get into our program because our clients are crushing it. We have scripts for this, all of this. All right. Any other things about this that are not why realtor referrals don't work for most people? [00:18:48] Sarah: I think that about covers it.  [00:18:50] Jason: I think if I were to add one more thing, it would be a lack of confidence. So a lot of property managers don't go into these situations knowing clearly how to get Referrals to come from them. They don't know how to create these relationships effectively. They don't know the language, the scripting to use. Oh, this is a big one that we missed. Another big reason is they're not going to refer to you if your business is a real estate brand. This makes them feel very unsafe. So this is why we rebrand a large percentage of our clients. If your brand has 'real estate' or 'realty,' or they know that you're a real estate agent, it's like all over the tin. They don't want to send people to you because they don't want to lose their clients and they're afraid of their clients being stolen by you. And everybody says, "Oh, well, I'll just promise I'll refer them back," but their clients might put pressure on you or know that you do real estate. You need to create a scenario in which they're going to feel safe connecting clients to you so that you look like property management, not real estate. So those are some of the big ones. So, I think that's basically it. I think that's pretty comprehensive. So realtor referrals for most people are not working. And if you'd like this to work, what should they do?  [00:20:09] Sarah: Well, you can talk with us. You can book a call. You can check us out online at doorgrow.Com. We also have a free Facebook group and you can check out our Facebook group. There's a lot of information that we have out there available for you guys, but check us out. And if you're like, "I just don't know." That's okay. Do some research like where I think our results speak for themselves.  [00:20:33] Jason: Yeah. Nobody has as many case studies as us. We put out 40 testimonials or case study videos in the last year. And these are just captured during our coaching calls. Our clients are crushing it. And nobody is moving forward or innovating as quickly as DoorGrow when it comes to coaching. So join our group coaching mastermind. You can get all the details by going to doorgrow.Com. There's a big pink button on the page say "you want to grow." Click on that. It'll give you the three steps that you need to take in order to potentially work with us. We don't just like work with everybody. We want to work with people that are willing to put in the effort, but we're actually going to reduce the amount of friction and effort and time that it takes for you to get business on by doing more effective strategies. So reach out to us at DoorGrow. So I think that's it. So until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:21:27] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

With the real estate market shifting, more and more real estate agents are going to be starting property management companies. Is this you? If you are starting a property management business, this episode is for you. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they discuss the best way to build the foundation of your property management business in the current market. You'll Learn [01:18] The Trends in the Market and What They Mean [07:10] Why You Should Start a Property Management Business [10:09] Building the Right Foundation [15:03] The Product Research Strategy [17:39] The Next Steps for Your Business Tweetables “The biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going.” “When you're in that dreamer or that fantasy stage, a lot of times we are very good at looking at all the upside, and we're very good at ignoring the difficulties or the downside.” “Property management, like I mentioned in the intro, is the ultimate gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.” “A lot of the people that are the least qualified to be doing it, they're going to be the ones that get hurt the most because they're not paying attention much to the market.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: the biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going, and they get caught up on wasting a lot of time on stuff that doesn't really matter when the only thing that really matters is getting your first client, right? That first door is the hardest.  [00:00:16] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert, Jason Hull, along with Sarah I'm the founder and CEO she is owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:17] Alright. So today's topic, we've been noticing there's some trends and some changes in the real estate industry, which is going to probably create some shifts. So what are we noticing?  [00:01:29] Sarah: Well, so some of you may have realized real estate isn't quite what it was a couple months, even a year ago, certainly not what it was two years ago. Things have a shifted a little bit in the market. There was a point where you can list a property, you would get, you know, multiple offers in one to two days, and it would sell for a whole lot over asking and it was very easy. It was simple because the market was just on fire. Things have changed just a little bit. They've slowed down. And we wanted to talk about what happens when the real estate market slows down.  [00:02:14] Jason: So, historically what I've noticed is anytime real estate kind of takes a nose dive or slows down or there's some sort of recession or something like this, I see a lot of real estate agents quit. There's a lot of real estate agents that don't renew their license. They leave, they quit, they give up. And a lot of these are the newer ones or the ones that came in thinking it'd be really easy when things were great and we had years of feast and now that there maybe is coming famine, they're out. And so we see a lot of that. I also see a lot of real estate agents decide to become property managers because they're struggling to get real estate deals. They're like, "what else could I do? I'm going to start a property management business because all of the other ones around me aren't that great." [00:03:00] And so historically DoorGrow, we get a lot of clients coming to us, looking for new websites and starting a business when the market takes a nosedive or there's a shift in real estate. So the other thing, I just saw a video that was pretty interesting data, and it was showing how there's been this huge spike in inventory in Airbnbs, but the revenue generated on average by Airbnbs has dipped in some markets to like 50% of the revenue generated per unit or per owner. And so the revenue's dipping significantly, but there's a lot of inventory of Airbnbs. What's going to happen is that bubble is going to burst, it's going to collapse because a lot of Airbnbs are going to sell. I talked to a property manager here locally in Austin, and he said he already saw the writing on the wall. And shout out to my buddy and friend, Brett Koster. He said that he already saw the writing on the wall. Oh, Koster, Koster. I said his name wrong. He did. All right. Koster Kingdom-- sorry-- on Instagram. I got you. All right. I think Koster sounds cool, but it's Koster, it's not "coaster." So yeah. Sorry Brett. [00:04:07] All right. So Brett said he already saw the writing on the wall and he went to his short-term rental clients and he said, Hey, let's convert these into long-term rentals. because this is what I see coming. So I think there's an opportunity for property managers out there. There's an opportunity for real estate agents to get into property management that brings a lot of unqualified people and people that are going to not be very great and make a lot of mistakes perhaps unless they have their own investments, they've been dealing with property management a little bit. We can help you do this correctly and we'll talk a little bit about our DoorGrow Foundations in a little bit, but those of you that are established property managers, there's going to be an opportunity for you to capitalize maybe on this bubble, this Airbnb bubble, and convert some of the short-term rentals or convince some of the short-term rentals to convert the long term. [00:04:57] Otherwise, they're probably going to sell an exit. For real estate agents, that's your opportunity is maybe to identify those Airbnbs that really need to just get sold so that they don't end up losing out. A lot of unqualified people came into the short-term rental situation as a result of the pandemic and everything else thinking, "Hey, there's a bunch of opportunity here now afterwards, and they are, you know, a lot of the people that are the least qualified to be doing it, they're going to be the ones that get hurt the most because they're not paying attention much to the market.  [00:05:30] Sarah: And there's a lot of like coaching things for like, "oh, here, I'll teach you how to like, run an Airbnb or like a short term rental business." and I think it's a really great idea. It is. I think what oftentimes happens is people significantly underestimate the amount of work that it takes. Significantly. Like Jason and I, we were just at Melanie's event last week and we were talking with someone who manages two short-term rental properties and she is already done. She's completely overwhelmed. She hates it. And that's only at two, two properties. And she's like, "everything is just urgent. They need it right now. You know, you can't wait, and sometimes people have very unreasonable expectations and thoughts as to what is an emergency and what needs to be done right now." so if you're in that short term Rental game. Our advice to her was, "you need a property manager," like, and one that does short-term rentals like on a consistent basis, not one that is just able to say, "Hey, I can do short-term." When you get into the short-term game, your short-term game and your long-term game are completely different. [00:06:39] They function like two very separate businesses, and we have a few clients that do both short term and long term, and they realize very quickly that they are not at all the same thing. They have to operate very differently just because of that quick turnover.  [00:06:57] Jason: Yeah, so I'm doing a webinar later today with a friend of mine that basically does some coaching stuff to the real estate industry to real estate agents. So I'm going to be talking to real estate agents about how they can double their real estate commissions by leveraging property management and there's an opportunity here. Real estate agents can either start their own property management business so that they can keep their investor clients or they can partner with a property manager locally, which could be you listening, and that could help them as well. [00:07:34] I've had several clients that if they make the property management arm of their business, when they also have brokerage, double their brokerage commissions simply by making sure property management is healthy, that they're acquiring new clients, that there's healthy flow, and that has fed them a lot more real estate deals. A lot of companies get their real estate deals from the tenants that are looking to get into buying a home from owners that are looking to buy or sell, they're getting real estate deals and commissions and property management, like I mentioned in the intro, is the ultimate gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. And so there's an opportunity there for those listening to either start your own property management business if you don't have that yet or to partner with a property manager, and there's ways they can help you generate revenue, get more deals if you have a good relationship. Especially those of my clients because they know how to help real estate agents get more real estate deals and make more money. [00:08:37] We teach them how to do this. So why don't we talk about to those that are looking to maybe get into property management or have been thinking about starting it up. Okay. Okay.  [00:08:48] Sarah: Okay. So if you're thinking about starting a property management business, I think it would be a very good time to do that because we aren't quite sure where the real estate market is going. Are we heading into a recession? Are we already in the recession? Is it going to continue to tank? We don't know. So I think it's a really great time to start a property management business. I actually started one years ago just kind of by mistake, and I learned some hard lessons along the way. So what we've done is we've created a course called DoorGrow Foundations for people who are starting, or who have recently started a property management company. So by like startups, we mean that you might already have a few clients, but you are just really not, you know, a big large company at this point. What we've done is we've kind of, mapped out.  [00:09:45] Jason: Or you have zero doors? Or like purely nothing.  [00:09:48] Sarah: Yeah. Started, I started by saying that, okay. [00:09:51] Jason: Just to clarify, a lot of the people that I talked to that have started their property management business, they started it because they were an investor. [00:09:57] They already had 10, sometimes even a hundred units that were their own. And then they decided to start doing it, third party, and then they were actually starting a business. So before that, they just considered themselves an investor. So why don't we tell them a little bit about our Foundations program  [00:10:12] then? [00:10:12] Sarah: Yeah. So what we've done in DoorGrow Foundations is we have created an entire course that you can go through that talks about all of the things that you're going to need to know when starting a property management business. We go into all of the mistakes that we see a lot of people make right around this point. [00:10:32] And I've leveraged my own experience as well to help people avoid making some really common mistakes. So some of the things that we've talked about are, you know, what do your bank accounts need to look like and what should your financials look like? And, you know, how do we prioritize, like how do we get started? What should my day look like? Like all of these types of things are usually questions that people have when they're starting up. And unfortunately, sometimes if you don't kind of set that up the right way in the beginning, then it comes around to kind of bite you later. So we've put all of this into a course and we've made this available because a lot of times we get people contacting us who don't yet have a property management business. [00:11:20] They're like, "Hey, I want to start this. I want to get into it." But they haven't actually done it yet and made that leap. So we thought, 'Hey, let's help people by leveraging what we know, what we've seen by talking hundreds of property managers and my own experience in starting a property management company, let's put all of that into a course that people can have access to, and that way it'll help you kind of get things off on the right foot.' [00:11:47] Jason: So in our DoorGrow code, a lot of. At the very earliest stage, we call those dreamers. These are people that have this dream of starting a business and we call them fantasy belts. You know, we have this belt system, so they're not even a white belt yet. When you're in that dreamer or that fantasy stage, a lot of times we are very good at looking at all the upside, and we're very good at ignoring the difficulties or the downside. And so there are a lot of potential pitfalls and mistakes that they make when getting started. and the biggest challenge usually getting started is just taking action to actually get the business going, and they get caught up on wasting a lot of time on stuff that doesn't really matter when the only thing that really matters is getting your first client, right? That first door is the hardest. And so our program is focused on helping you get that first third party door as quick as possible, getting the right things in place, that you need systems in place. And then we even have some upsells or upgrades in the program, so you can get a website and some of these other add-ons that you might want in starting your business. Let's talk about what the program costs.  [00:12:54] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about it. So the monthly investment for foundations is only $297 a month. And we price it this way because some people, it might take only a couple months to get through and some people might kind of hang out here for quite a while. So sometimes we see people really go through things like we have clients in our program. They go through things super quickly. They're rapid implementers. They get the knowledge that they need and then they just implement, move forward. And if that's you, then you can get through this really quickly. You might only be in there for a few months and at that point you might qualify for our mastermind if you need a little bit more time because. You maybe have another job or you've got, you know, other things that are requiring your attention. So you want to be able to do this so that you don't miss out on the opportunity, but you can't fully dedicate yourself to it, then that's okay too. It might take you a little bit longer, so it's only $297 a month. And that way as long as it takes you or as quickly as you get through it you still get all of that information and you can kind of work at your own pace.  [00:14:06] Jason: Cool. Let's talk about what you get with this program. So first you get access to the Foundation's training in DoorGrow Academy, which is going to help you make a lot of the right moves in getting this started. You also get a ticket to DoorGrow Live, which is easily worth the value of, you know, probably several months of paying for this program. But you get a ticket to DoorGrow Live, you get to attend in person, connect with other property managers, maybe make some connections, a friend or two, maybe find a mentor. And we've got some really great mastermind members in that, that are always coming to those events. You get access to DoorGrow CRM. So this is a tool that's going to help you to be able to keep track of potential deals and leads and to be able to move those forward more easily. And it has phone calling and texting and a lot of cool features. So DoorGrow CRM. [00:15:00] Sarah: Branding pages, automation, all that kind of good stuff.  [00:15:03] Jason: So you get access to that and then we have a growth strategy that we teach in this as well. That's perfect and ideal for startups that we call product research interviews so that you can go out and have a reason to talk to investors or people that can connect you to investors and how to leverage that and how to have the right conversation. We give you the scripts, everything so that you can use this tactic to get your first clients, which are the most difficult to get. And if you do these product research interviews and you do them correctly, you'll get some clients. And this is how we actually use this strategy to start our mastermind and several other programs that we've had at DoorGrow is this strategy of product research interviews, which gives you an excuse to talk to somebody. Sometimes I call this the Trojan horse to selling, but basically you're interviewing people and able to then convert them into clients.  [00:15:58] And that can be really effective for startups because it's also going to teach you, by doing these interviews, you're going to learn the language and the objections and the pain and the pleasure, all the stuff you need to understand in order to sell effectively to clients. So this is going to help you collapse time on selling to clients so that you will be able to sell as effectively, or maybe more so than some people that have been in the industry or at this game for a long time. There's some knowledge that we need to collapse time on, and this is one of the strategies that will help with that. We also have a upsell to where you can, if you want a logo and you want a website, you can pay a little extra to get access to our team to do those things for you. We're the world's leading property management, branding and design agency, we've rebranded more companies than anybody else. Period. Hundreds. And we can help you with making sure you don't make some significant mistakes on the brand, which can cost you a lot of money in the long run. And I think that's about it, right?  [00:16:59] Sarah: Oh, they do the masterclass too? They get access to the masterclass.  [00:17:02] Jason: Oh. We also have a masterclass that we do once a month where we do a cool training on something related to helping you grow and scale your property management business. Trainings in the past that we've done, you will have access to is we did a training on creating the ideal pitch deck, how to create a really good pitch deck to increase your close rate. We did a training on the three systems you need in order to make your business infinitely scalable so you can scale quickly. And any others? We've done some others. We just did your priorities. We did, yeah. We just did a training on increasing your profitability by changing the priorities in the business. Stuff like this.  [00:17:39] So, yeah. So the Foundation's program is a really great stepping stone to enable you to get the funds and get in gear so that you can join our Mastermind. Now, if you've already got the funds, maybe you've got a healthy brokerage, we would recommend you start with our lite version of the Mastermind, and that would be a much better program to be in because it includes the foundation stuff, but then you get coaching and we take things to the next level. You get our more advanced growth strategies, and we do a full rapid revamp on your business, which includes the branding, the website, all that stuff's included. Based on the price points for those things, those upsells being included, it makes it a no-brainer you should do the lite version of the Mastermind, because you'll probably save money that way. So you'll definitely save money that way. Yeah, we would recommend that.  [00:18:31] Program is a one year program or a 12 month commitment, and if you're 200 doors + maybe $20k revenue and plus, then you probably are at a point now where you know how to add doors. Your business probably has a team, you're probably ready for our super system level of the Mastermind and that would be the that next level that we would recommend for those of you that are 200 plus. At least a hundred doors, but maybe 20 K in revenue, plus maybe to be in that level. So depending on what you need and where you're at, we can help figure out what do you need most and how can we best help you? So, yeah. Cool. So if you're thinking about getting into property management, my usual joke is, If you're considering it is, do you want us to talk you into it or do you want us to talk you out of it? because we can do either one. So reach out to us and we can help you with that. Anything else that we should say?  [00:19:24] If you are interested in talking to us, you are struggling in your property management business. You are wanting to take things to the next level. You really haven't grown much or significantly over the last year. Let us inject a little bit of juice and rocket fuel into your business and get you to that next level. We're really good at that. Reach out to us at doorgrow.com and join our free Facebook community. We have some free gifts and we will help funnel you through to working with us as a client. If you need a little time to be nurtured, go to DoorGrowClub.com. We have a lot of great stuff, free content. You get access to some of our master classes and the goal is to convince you that we know what we're doing and to get you to the point where you're working with us as a client. And we'd love to see you in there. So, and that's it, right? And you'll get some free gifts for joining. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:20:12] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:39] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

The property management industry has been moving more and more towards automating tasks and processes in the last decade. Property management tools and software have improved drastically and continue to improve every year. In this episode, property management growth expert, Jason Hull sits down with Mo Hussein from Balanced Asset Solutions to talk about property management tools and systems. You'll Learn... [06:23] Why You DON'T Want Software that Does it All [10:27] Implementing a New Tool or System [20:40] The Cost of Hiring vs Implementing a New Software [28:04] The Most Effective Accountability System for Your Team Tweetables “Try to evaluate software from a very objective type of lens. At the end of the day, it is just a tool.” “You don't see an amazing handyman or you know, vendor or somebody that's going to do some work, show up with a, just a multi-tool. Like where's your toolbox?” “There's no such thing as one product that's going to do everything extremely well.” “The humbling experience every business owner needs to have is when they start to hire people that are better at the things they used to do that they've let go of.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Initially when I was playing around with stuff in my own business, I was like, I need to find that multi-tool, and I think this is a mistake a lot of people make. I need to find this multi-tool that can do everything. That sounds like that would be the best thing, but it does it really badly, right? You don't see an amazing handyman or somebody that's going to do some work, show up with a, just a multi-tool. Like where's your toolbox?  [00:00:23] Welcome DoorGrow hackers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and in life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder, and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:24] So my guest today, I'm hanging out with Mo Hussein. Welcome Mo and what's the name of your business?  [00:01:30] Mohammed: Hey Jason. Pleasure to be here. It's called Balanced Asset Solutions.  [00:01:34] Jason: Balanced Asset Solutions. Awesome. So the topic Mo and I are going to be chatting about today is the Power of Innovative Software Solutions. But before we get into that, Mo, why don't you give everybody a little bit of background on yourself and how you've sort of connected yourself to property management?  [00:01:50] Mohammed: Yeah, great, great question. So we are a CPA accounting and technology advisory firm that specifically just focuses on real estate. So we work with property managers, asset managers, fund managers. In implementing software leveraging software to be able to streamline their business and enabling them to be able to scale. Prior to starting this practice about six years ago I've actually worked for AppFolio and well before they were public as well as Yardi Systems. And what I saw in the market was you know, the software is a tool at the end of the day, and there's a lot of complexity that comes with these programs. The accounting nuances, how to properly implement it, get your accounting to work right, your numbers to show up correctly. And a lot of customers would call in asking for accounting and operational kind of advice. And being a software vendor, we're there to make sure that the product is technically working right, versus giving advice in the accounting and operations world. And so we started this practice about six years ago and we offer, you know, CPA and accounting services around the accounting that bookkeeping using these products and also kind of maximizing the ability to kind of streamline your business and wrapping your business processes around these programs. [00:02:59] Jason: Cool. Awesome. So you worked for AppFolio, you worked for Yardi as well, correct? Correct. Okay. And in a tech capacity?  [00:03:09] Mohammed: In a tech capacity, yeah. In sales and account management? Correct.  [00:03:13] Jason: Okay. I come from a tech background as well, so. Great. I worked at HP and I worked at Verizon, and so we're both nerds. Talk nerdy to me, Mo! Let's go. So what are you noticing in the industry when it comes to software? And, you know, this is a challenge a lot of people are trying to figure out which one to pick when they're in the startup stage. And then what I also notice-- Some try to do it without it-- but what I also notice is that nobody ever seems totally happy with their software and they're always looking over the fence at their neighbor to try and figure out, what are you using? Is this better? And I get people switch more often than they probably should. And then they realize they're missing something else. So what do you work on with clients and what are you seeing?  [00:04:00] Mohammed: Yeah. You know, great question and you know about like what, 15, 20 years ago, when we think about property management software and the industry as a whole, there weren't that many players. You had Yardi, this is before AppFolio time, 15, 20 years ago. Yeah. You had some very legacy players that worked with larger commercial operators like an MRI or Skyline. A lot of these on-premise pieces of software have now been kind of gobbled up by larger players or have transformed to be, you know, software as a service or web-based programs. And now, you know, over time now the ability to be able to build new software, the barrier to entry is much lower. You know, modern technology frameworks like using like single page apps and stuff like that are very ubiquitous. And you're seeing a lot of new entrants and players that are coming into the market. You know, players like Red Vine. That you're hearing of now. And then also there's this whole you know, offshoot or like a entire vertical that's been created now called PropTech. And now you have technology that's specific for screening and, you know, maintenance management, facilities management, investment management, and you have all these little products that are coming out. And so, you know, one thing that we always you know, implore on our customers is, you know, try to evaluate software from a very objective type of lens. At the end of the day, it is just a tool. And the effectiveness of that tool is in how you use it. Right? If you're using a hammer, you know, not in a conducive way, then it's not going to be an effective tool, right? And so there's a lot of buzz in the market that you hear now, especially with AI and generative ai. There's a lot of different tools that are in the market, but you know, the fundamentals of what you're looking to make the software do or hopefully achieve with the software, being able to streamline your rent collections and tenant communication, your vendor communication, you know, we always tell our customers, Hey, put together a checklist of what exactly the objectives are that you're looking to accomplish with this piece of software. Try to tie that to some business outcome. And that's kind of the driver of why you're looking at or evaluating the software and then put together a grading rubric and then, you know, find the software that is effective for your business needs. Don't give too much credence and how it looks or the aesthetics or what you're hearing from other folks. Definitely what you're hearing in the market will help kind of guide the software programs they to take a look at, but you know, we tend to see this as well, a lot of clients are kind of jumping around between different products and are not happy with one product or another. And usually it's an issue associated with kind of the implementation and kind of the adoption and enablement that they're giving to their employees with the product. [00:06:22] Jason: So, going back to your tool analogy, I think my philosophy with software. Initially when I was playing around with stuff in my own business, I was like, I need to find that multi-tool, and I think this is a mistake a lot of people make. I need to find this multi-tool that can do everything. It's got the hammer, the screwdriver, the pliers, tweezers, knife, like everything in it. That sounds like that would be the best thing. I'll just find something, does everything, but it does it really badly, right? You don't see an amazing handyman or you know, vendor or somebody that's going to do some work, show up with a, just a multi-tool. Like where's your toolbox? "Oh, I've got this guy. This can do everything." Right? So my philosophy on software over time is definitely shifted to, I want my team members to have the best tools, and if those best tools can do some things really well, then I will find other tools to strap onto that or add into my toolbox. That also do their job really well, and I find I get a better result having the best tools, even if I'm spending more money, than having that multi-tool that can do a whole bunch of things. So what's your take on this? Are we in alignment or...?  [00:07:34] Mohammed: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And I completely agree. There's no such thing as one product that's going to do everything extremely well, right? There's going to be some pitfalls in one area that you have to sacrifice for another area. And so, you know, usually when clients are going through these evaluation kind of cycles of looking at software, what we suggest is, "Hey, you know, use this as an opportunity to also do some introspection. Understand what your standard operating procedures are, how you run your business, what is your accounting cycle look like? Who's involved? How does that process propagate throughout the organization? Same thing with you know, the leasing, the accounting operations when it comes to maintenance and document what that process kind of looks like, and then use that as kind of a guiding post of the functionality you're looking from the program," you know, versus going into the evaluation and looking at a bunch of different pieces of software. And usually when, you know, when clients realize like, "Hey, you know, we didn't realize that this program had a limitation in this aspect," they didn't approach it from a manner of understanding kind of what their processes are and then kind of demoing the software or looking at the programs from that lens, if that makes sense. [00:08:40] Jason: Got it. So what size of companies and what companies typically are coming to you for help, and what do they need help with?  [00:08:49] Mohammed: Great question. So we have a pretty broad range of clients. We have small mom and pop and customers with, you know, 10 or 15 doors on the residential side. And then we have clients, large asset fund managers that are, you know, grappling with 80,000 plus doors across the world. And so, we don't only focus on residential, commercial, office, industrial, manufactured housing, self storage. The only vertical we don't touch is senior housing, mainly because of hipaa, kind of healthcare requirements there. Ok, cool. Some of the problems that they do have, one is change management. [00:09:21] Most of the clients we work with have, you know, CPAs in house, you know, they have staff implementing and properly adopting software is a herculean effort, especially as the organization grows larger and larger. You have your day-to-day responsibilities, challenges, organization, and cleanliness, you know, understanding kind of accounting and software. At the same time, you know, change management and project management and the orchestration of that is probably the biggest challenge that a lot of our clients have. And in general, we're all creatures of habit, right? So there's a significant opportunity that cost that comes with kind of managing and implementing a new solution and ushering a change, versus kind of focusing on growth and your portfolio and servicing your owners and your tenants. [00:10:04] Jason: Now a lot of business owners will get excited about some new tech or some new software, some new thing they're going to throw into the business, and they go and throw this at their team, and then they get friction and resistance and adoption. Anyone that's ever been around tech or software knows that trying to get a team to use tech adoption is the number one challenge. [00:10:25] You've already mentioned it twice, right? Adoption's a big challenge. So, What is the secret to adoption? And I find for me, there's a couple of factors, but I want to hear what you found really helps with the adoption happening and getting team buy-in and getting team members to actually use this stuff. [00:10:46] Mohammed: Yeah. Great question. I did a radio show a couple months ago and kind of the three things that we see that are needed in order to have kind of. Effective adoption and enablement with software and just in general, just changes. One is executive sponsorship and so we see a lot of owners of property management, asset management firms, you know, they understand that there is a need for some of your product or, you know, they're doing a lot of pen and paper using a lot of Excel spreadsheets. They want to use some piece of software. However, they'll relegate or delegate that to the team that would also be using it. And so, And this team not only has to go through and do their kind of day-to-day activities, but now they also have to go through the process of evaluating different pieces of software or different software products. And they're giving kind of an artificial budget and the executive or the sponsor is not as involved. Kind of the evaluation process and not giving much weight to, you know, how significant of a change this will be at the end of the day. You know, implementing a new piece of software is very business disruptive. And so, you know, your employees are the folks that are kind of doing this evaluation, feel like they're on, kind of on their own little island and kind of going through this entire change and evaluation on their own. That's one is the kind of executive sponsorship. And usually when that executive sponsorship exists and the, you know, the owner and the executives in the business are actually involved during the evaluation cycle this also gives confidence to, you know, the the employees and the folks in your organization that you are serious about this. [00:12:14] want to make sure that it is successful. I want to see it through. And it incentivizes, you know, extreme ownership. You know, folks want to do less manual work. We want to do less administrivia work, right? And so, and these software programs have that promise. So executive owner sponsorship extreme ownership. And then lastly, and probably most importantly is change management. And this is something that most organizations just struggle with in general. They're too focused and kind of, siloed into what they're trying to accomplish, that they're not looking at kind of the bigger picture and the impact that this change is impacting across the organization. And so that's why organizations and consultants like us kind of exist. And so executive sponsorship, extreme ownership and change management.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah, entrepreneurs like to walk into a room, pull the pin on a grenade that they picked up at a conference. Throw it into the middle of their team and say, "here's our new thing we're doing! or "go do this thing!" and the team are like, what the hell? Like, we've got plenty of work already to be working on. We're not excited about this. This does not look fun to us. This is terrifying. You know, how am I going to manage my current work? And and they don't want to really own it. They, and they don't want to mess up because they know if they go out there, start researching software and they're usually not given the right criteria. Right. Like, they're like, how do we weight the criteria? because they probably are going to be conservative and think just in terms of budget. Whereas the business owner's probably like, I want the best. And, you know, there isn't really a good decision making guide related to this and which weighted factors and how they should consider it. Right. And so, You know, if anyone's ever seen a decision making matrix where you list out all the criteria, right? Like what's the speed of implementation, how disruptive will this be? How intuitive is the UI or the user interface for the software you know, can we pick it up pretty easily? So, How much training is going to be required? What's the cost, right? How long is it going to take to implement, right? And then you can weight all the software and figure out, all right, what's going to look like, what looks like the best one, but which of these criteria is the most important? Which one's the second most important? So there's a cool app I like to, I've used in the past called Best Decision on the iPhone. [00:14:29] Okay. And you can put in all your criteria, you can put in your question, you can put in all your options, and it'll, you can put the weight on these and then it, you can go through and take it like a quiz and put in all your different options and each criteria. And then at the end it'll say, here's your best decision. So it's kind of cool. I don't know if it exists on Android, but I've used that in the past, but a lot of times people just don't have anything like that and nobody wants to manage the process of implementation. Right. Leaving that on the team shoulder generally doesn't work because they're going to just blame everyone else. There isn't extreme ownership. Right. Which is a great book by the way, right? And then the business owner. Is already delegated, so they're not really taking ownership. Yeah. I could see how that would be a huge mess. Yeah.  [00:15:14] Mohammed: Yeah. It's also you know, implementing a software is it has its own nuances and complexities that come with it, right? There's companies that just focus on that. And quite honestly, if you're a business owner, property manager, you know, implementing software is not a distinctive differentiator to you from your competition, and so you should be taking on responsibilities and delegating internally for the things that actually make material impact and differentiate your business versus, you know, the accounting or implementing some piece of software, which is something that you and your competition peers have to do anyway. [00:15:43] Jason: Yeah, I find that we have the best success. So DoorGrow has a suite of software as well in that PropTech category, I guess, and we find that the operator is the person that should be moving this forward and learning it and getting the team doing it. Not the business owner typically. Because the business owner likes the concept. They like the idea of the software, they like the vision of where we could get to and the results, but they don't want to do the work to implement it. They don't want to usually learn it fully. And the operator is usually more the personality type that geeks out on that stuff anyway, and would be happy to dig into it, learn it, get it dialed in. Get all the detail in the minutiae en entered into it. Especially when it comes to like process software. It's like we have this Visio like, or Lucidchart like flowchart software for building out workflows for process that you can build in forms and other stuff. But it's very visual and that makes it really intuitive and easy for teams to map out their processes and to know where they're at currently in a workflow if they're running a process. [00:16:51] We find that's a whole level beyond what we used to experience before we had DoorGrow flow in like Process Street. Or some people use Lead Simple, or they use some of these more checklist based tools. You know, and my operator actually is unique. She's my wife, but she's a little unique that she doesn't like technology, like she thinks it's trying to get her. She's fighting with her computer all the time. She's like, what is this? And she asked me to come in. I'm the nerd in the company. And I'm like, oh, it's like this. She's like, okay. But she's like, "see!" Like technology's out to get me, you know? And so, but she likes using DoorGrow flow. Because it's visual and she can map. I'm like, what are you doing? It was the weekend. This weekend. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, oh, I'm mapping out a process. I'm like, really?  [00:17:36] Mohammed: Yeah, and this is a great example, Jason, that was already a process. You guys had documents, right? You're using the software to kind of map, you know, digitally the process that you've already kind of built. And so that's, and that's huge crux also with a lot of folks that are implementing these new products is that, you know, they don't have that process. They don't have SOPs, you know, they don't have controls within the organization and checks, especially when it comes to the accounting. And so they jump into this product and you know, They're, you know, they fail to have a process and that also tends to make the product just the enablement around it. Very finicky and, you know, there's a lack of adoption. And then, oh they find another shiny tool and product and that gets 'em excited.  [00:18:15] Jason: Right. I think one thing that also really affects adoption is the timeline in a lot of people's minds is a lot shorter than reality. And I think my general rule for implementing something new in a business, whether it's building out one of DoorGrow's, growth engines, and adding this into your business is it's going to take minimum 90 days. And usually it's the first 30 days to just start to install or build this engine or to like get the software just set up. Maybe it's going to take a second month to now start to do the major changes and tweaks in it, and then the third month, usually it's just the little tweaks that give you 90% of the results. Like it's that last 10% of getting something dialed in that gives you 90% of the results. And sometimes the mistake our clients will make, like if they're just implementing a growth strategy, for example, is they will do some of the work during the first 30 days. Not fully build that engine, and then they try and dump a little fuel into it and they're like, this thing is leaky as hell and it's not getting any results and it's not working, and they didn't do the work to get it dialed in. And this happens in your sales process. This happens in just about anything. It's that last 10% of dialing in the little tweaks and the little changes that finally gets you to getting 90% of the benefit and the results.  [00:19:40] Mohammed: Right. No, of course. And then there's also that notion of implementation fatigue, right? It's like the longer that kind of this implementation cycle kind of drags out kind of diminishing returns.  [00:19:51] Jason: Oh, totally true. They just burnt out on it. And the business owners getting fed up and it's just because they didn't probably have a decent plan, but they're like, they're giving up. And then you hear, like I hear a ton of clients say, Hey, we really like property meld like this cool tool that really has helped us dial in our maintenance and speed things up. And then I hear some say we tried it for like the first month and it was a nightmare and we quit. And I'm like, really? Because I hear amazing feedback most of the time. They're like, oh yeah, it was awful. I'm like, okay, so.  [00:20:25] Mohammed: Fail the plan or plan to fail. Right?  [00:20:27] Jason: Yeah. So interesting. So, well, what else would you like to chat about the power of innovative software solutions that we haven't covered yet?  [00:20:38] Mohammed: Yeah, so, you know, a lot of times when we're talking to clients or prospects that are implementing a new piece. One thing that I did want to kind of double click on is the the point that you mentioned about kind of the timeframe it takes to implement a new piece of software. It's also the toll and the investment, right? The time investment. You know, there's an opportunity cost between hiring experts to do something versus, you know, DIY or doing it yourself. And so I feel like there's also a chasm and kind of a gap between kind of ownership's understanding of just like, Hey, this new product is just data entry. I can use my VA or folks that I have in the Philippines, or you know, some of my other employees that just enter this data and then all of a sudden this product is going to be working well. Yeah. I'm curious when you're talking to clients and they're saying, Hey, you know, this piece of product didn't work well for us, do you usually kind of dig a little bit deeper? I'm usually try to ask a lot of follow up questions, quantify like where exactly things did not go right. [00:21:34] And and I tend to get a lot of answers of, you know what, I don't know. That's a good question. [00:21:37] Jason: So when things don't go well, it's usually excuses. They're like, well, we couldn't get vendors to use it, like if they're talking about Property Meld. But really like, did you tell them if they want to work with you, they have to use it? And did you sell them on the benefits of how it's going to collapse time for them? And they'll be able to just use their phone to do this and it'll make everything easier. Right. So I think one of the challenges is if you go into implementing a software, switching to a software, but you don't yet believe in it, then you're going to sabotage your results with it. And that means they're not fully sold on it. And I think when it comes to technology, First, the person that's the decision maker has to be sold on the technology. They have to believe in it if they're really going to move forward. Otherwise, they should not move forward with it. And then once they believe in it, they have to transfer that belief to their team. They have to convince the team to believe in it, because if they can't sell the team on doing it, but they're going to expect the team to implement it, it's going to be met with disastrous results. And I think that's our role as an entrepreneur. We have to continually be selling our team. On what we're doing, and then we can sell to potential clients on what our business is doing. But we have to always be selling our team. And the way that we do that internally, one of our software or one of our tech tools is a planning software called DoorGrow OS for Operations. One of the flaws or fundamental flaws I see in planning like with EOS or Traction or these sort of things is it's very top down. It's like I'm in charge and it over inflates the importance of the visionary in the accountability org chart. Like the visionary is like this amazing God who the only person who has all the ideas in the business. Which is really flawed thinking. If you have even a decent team, really flawed thinking, that means you're the emperor with no clothes. Everybody's like, yeah, you have the best ideas. Sure boss, you know, and you're missing out on a lot of good stuff. And then they, the below that person, they put the integrator and then below the integrator in the org chart, they put everyone else on the team, right? The rest of the executive team. This is so fundamentally flawed. I think it's ridiculous, but. It really inflates the importance of it inflates the ego of the visionary looking at this, well, yeah, I am pretty important. And then it over inflates the importance of the integrator, which really probably should be called an operator, but the integrator. And that's what the EOS company sells. [00:24:09] They sell integrators. These are their coaches that help with the implementation of this flawed system. And it over inflates the importance of this integrator so they can sell integrators, right? I believe that's a very top-down system, and I think it's super important to have a bottom up planning system with your team to where the team you're getting their ideas first on each of the major areas of dysfunction or constraint in the business, and then the visionary is the last to speak. [00:24:37] An operator is probably second to last to speak so that they don't mess everything up and temper it and become the emperor/empress with no clothes, where everybody's like, yeah what he said, I just want to keep my job and please this person. So what he or she said, right? So, so I think with I think it starts with having how you plan as a business and the planning and cadence is the communication system in the business. For effective communication and rolling out software or implementing new things, there needs to be a really solid plan, but the team need to be coming to these conclusions. The team needs to be saying, Hey, we could use a better software. And you can inject those ideas as a visionary, like, Hey, I did see this. There is a problem here. Let's brainstorm and the team come up with ideas.  [00:25:23] The visionary might say, Hey, you're missing another idea. There's this that could do this. And the team might be like, oh, okay. Right. We should get that Property Meld software or whatever, right? So you got to get the team's buy-in. And I think that happens through really good planning, right? And a lot of teams, that's one of the most fundamental systems I think a business should have, is a really good planning system where they have annual goals broken down into 90 day, you know, quarterly goals, broken down into their 30 day or monthly goals, broken down into weekly commitments. And this is strategic stuff to move the business forward. So they have a strategic plan, not just their daily tactical work. And the challenge, most businesses, everything's tactical, and then the boss comes and throws some strategic grenade into the middle of the room and says, Hey, start doing this thing. And the team didn't plan this together. They didn't buy in into this, they didn't see the problem together, and they didn't brainstorm together. And so there's no buy-in and it's very top-down. I think that's where the mistakes really start to happen, so.  [00:26:22] Mohammed: You hit the nail on the head there, Jason. It's it's funny you know, that even the way that software today is evaluated has changed also. Right? You know, traditionally, you know, a couple decades ago when you had a lot of on-premise type of software like Cap X, software investments versus, you know, SAAS subscriptions where you're actually paying a monthly maintenance fee, right? [00:26:41] Jason: You had to have a server and then you had to have a tech guy maintaining the server and there was some nerd that understood it and they had, like, you were like, you had to pay them whatever you had to pay them because this was, your whole business was running off this.  [00:26:52] Mohammed: Yeah. Right. Now you can just get something off the shelf and get it implemented very quickly. But one key thing that I do want to highlight of what you said is that, you know, you need to elevate the voices of the folks that are closest to the problem. So it has to be kind of that bottom up type of grassroots type of investment and type of focus. Because those are the folks that have the most to gain from being able to solve for those problems. And they'll feel, you know, when there are a lot of initiatives or objectives that kind of come from top down. Similar to what you were saying kind of about the eos, is that folks see it as kind of a task that are being delegated to do this work versus, you know, being incentivized and taking ownership of like, Hey, you know what, this is my domain. This is going to make my life easier in x, y, and Z way. And you know, and then I think the goals are very important.  [00:27:37] I'm sure you've heard of kind of smart goals specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time based. And putting that into, you know, weekly, 30 days, 90 days, and kind of, and going through that type of approach and kind of any type of endeavor or change or kind of trying to turn things around. Most of the clients that we speak with are just folks that we see that fail with when it comes to implementations. It's usually, you know, a lack of ownership and a lot of kind of top-down initiatives that are kind of broad, the organization and then, you know, kind of a lack of a, you know, sponsorship. [00:28:04] Jason: Also, you know, there's some entrepreneurs listening to this right now. I guarantee it. It might be you, whoever's listening that are thinking, this is total bs this can't work because the, you know, doing something that's bottom up. Because fundamentally, even before having a really good planning system for the team and communication system, if you could do this and have it be bottom up, they're like, it has to be top down because my team are idiots. Like, they don't believe in their team. And that's because there's a lot of bosses that have built the wrong team, and it's because they're showing up as the wrong person already in the business, which means they're wearing hats right now. If you're listening and you're wearing hats right now that you do not enjoy, several hats you don't enjoy, maybe you don't enjoy sales or maybe you don't enjoy accounting or whatever it is, or the team members that do are doing these things, you are all always talking with them about how to do it, which means your org chart really just has you in parentheses, next to every person in the org chart, right? So that means that you are the wrong person. You're showing up doing the wrong things in the business, and you've built a team around the wrong person. It's like having a fake puzzle piece. Instead of the right puzzle piece. It's you, and then you build puzzle pieces all around that. And so now you have the wrong team. And so you have the wrong team if you are constantly frustrated in your mind saying, why won't my team just think for themselves? The problem is you. It's because you as a business owner, Are holding onto too many things and not letting go. [00:29:37] And it's because you have built a team of people that you don't trust or you built a team of people that the business needed, but you didn't build the team that you needed in order to have more peace and more certainty and more freedom and fulfillment in your business. And so you built this monstrous business around the business and it's taken over like this armchair tyrant, this highchair tyrant. This highchair tyrant that's thrown food and saying, I want more. And you just keep giving it to the business and you should be in charge of this business. And that means that you should be setting really good culture. And that means you should be attracting team members and only hiring team members that believe what you believe in, share your views so that you can actually trust them. And so a lot of the reason why top-down systems are so necessary, even though they're bad ideas because they don't have a team they trust. So even going back before, like before technology, before planning, they need a team they actually trust, which means they need to be super clear on what their values are, their culture, and only hire based on that so that they can actually trust their team members. And if you hire good team members that you like culture-wise and they're the right personality fits for those roles when you weren't? They will be better at those things than you.  [00:30:53] That's the humbling thing I want every entrepreneur to eventually experience, because it's pretty powerful because we think we're pretty hot stuff in the beginning. We start to build a team, they come to us with all their questions. We're like, man, I know everything. It's so good to be king. And then the humbling experience every business owner needs to have is when they start to hire people that are better at the things they used to do that they've let go of. And they know like they're exceeding your ability to perform in those areas. Like I used to design logos. My logo designers are better at designing logos than me. Right. As an example, and then you can really start to trust that team and you can trust them. Like my operator's a better operator than me. [00:31:32] I was terrible at running the planning meetings. I just wanted to get them over with, I didn't want to do it right. And now she tells me," you're last to speak. Like don't talk." And I'm like, "okay." because she runs it, she's in charge and she makes it way better. And it's a lot faster than I would and more efficient than how I would do it. [00:31:50] Mohammed: Yeah, think that creating that crux of dependency is definitely going to stifle growth and scalability, right? And so, it's interesting that you mentioned, a lot of listeners or folks that are probably listening to this, and we hear this as well, is that they don't trust their teams. There's some introspection and it needs to be done there. If you've hired the right people for the right roles. You know, there's there's this notion, you know, Google's considered one of the most like, you know, effective organizations in the world and when, and they do a lot of research on on team dynamics and they have this notion of of psychological safety, which is basically how folks under understand like the own you know, ramifications of being able to take risk within an organization. And so you need to enable your folks and have the right folks in the right roles and be okay with people that have failed, but you want them to be bold. This is what helps kind of move the organization forward and helps you evolve as a business and scale and grow and you know, creating that dependency crux or creating yourself and creating that friction where you are a bottleneck and how things move and change within the organization. It creates not only a challenging environment to be able to like actually grow and evolve, but then it also erodes morality within your staff as well. And eventually you'll push out the high performers.  [00:33:01] Jason: Yeah, I think you know, A players love to be recognized and they love to be seen and B players love to hide and to not be noticed. Their secret goal is to make as much money as possible and do as little as possible. And A players, they don't just give you their time, they give you their discretionary time. Like they're thinking about you in the shower, they're thinking about your business and how to improve in their role when they're like on their walk, you know, on the weekend, right? Because they're believers and they want to win. And so I think a lot of entrepreneurs out there listening to this, they might be thinking, I need more KPIs. I need more micromanaging. I need more metrics. I need more profits, so I need to squeeze more blood from these team members. They're not giving enough, and that probably just means you have the wrong team. [00:33:51] It's surprising how little KPIs and metrics and accountability is needed when you have A players on your team and you just build in a simple accountability system like DoorGrow os, or some sort of planning system in which they are working towards objectives instead of just being given transactional leadership where it's a transaction. "Do this task and I'll pay you, right?" Transformational leadership is where you give them an outcome and a timeline, like a deadline and say, by the end of the month we want to achieve this goal towards our quarterly goal, which is in two months, you know, or whatever. You can have these things defined and what happens is these team members start to function like intrapreneurs. [00:34:31] They start to innovate, think, move things forward, and then implementing things like technology and software is just going to help them get towards these goals that they're working towards. It's not something preventing them from their day-to-day work. Instead, because if you don't, if they don't have strategic goals, they're just going to focus on the tactical work they have. And strategic growth in the business should be at priority over the daily tactical tasks. And if team members can see that and they have strategic goals, they're responsible for by the end of the month, they will focus on that and get their tactical work done. And the business then innovates and moves forward. And it's a really amazing, like beautiful thing to see happen. Well, this is a fun conversation. It sounds like there's a lot of people out there, I'm sure you've worked with quite a few that really could use some help understanding how to get their technology stuff dialed in, knowing what tools exist out there that can solve this you know, what can you help them with and how do people get in touch with you? [00:35:35] Mohammed: Yeah, good question. So we offer a pretty wide range of services, whether it's, you know, tax help, bookkeeping, accounting, implementing software, custom reporting, creating SOPs, and even just auditing business processes. And then if you ever do get audited by the boogeyman, they call Department of Real Estate. We also do Dre representations as well. You can reach us at www.balancedassetsolutions.com. You're welcome to also email me directly at mo@balancedassetsolutions.com. [00:36:05] Jason: Balanced asset solutions-- plural-- solutions.com. Yes. Okay, got it. All right. Cool. Mo, thanks for coming on the show. [00:36:14] Appreciate you being with us.  [00:36:15] Mohammed: Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much, Jason. Take care.  [00:36:18] Jason: All right, so check out Mo and his business if you need some support. Coming to this conversation, I didn't even know what he did, so this was really interesting for me. My team sets up these interviews and sounds like a really cool thing to get that support and technology implementation. If any of you've gone through it, you know, this is a painful process, so make sure you get some help. So, for those of you watching the show, if any of these things resonated that you're struggling with your team, you're struggling with getting, you know, more profitability in your business, make sure to reach out to DoorGrow. We can help you do those things in addition to helping you add doors, but more importantly we can help you make your business scalable. A lot of you aren't adding doors right now because you know how, but because. You know, if you add more doors, your life personally will get worse as a business owner. [00:37:10] And if that's the case, you do not yet have a scalable business. So you need a really good process system. You need a really good people system, and you need a really good planning system. And if you have those three things, you can, you're infinitely scalable. You can scale quickly, you can add any number of doors, and that freedom and that safety and that ability to just add doors and know that your business can handle the growth means you can now go even eat other companies, start to acquire businesses in the property management space, you can start buying up your neighbors. We want to help you do all of this stuff and scale. There's no reason why you can't be probably in the next two to five years, a thousand door business, crushing it and we can help you get there. We've got the roadmap, we've got the tools, we have some tech. [00:38:00] We can help you move forward on this. So reach out to DoorGrow. Check us out at doorgrow.com. And if you're wanting to get into an awesome free community, you waste a little bit of time on Facebook, you might as well be wasting that time in a way that's not wasting time. Like go to DoorGrowClub.com and you can get access to our free Facebook group. It's for property management, business owners, entrepreneurs. Get access to our free Facebook group by going to DoorGrowClub.com. We have some cool tools and free gifts that you get. As you join the group, make sure to answer the questions and if you plug in your email address in your phone, we will reach out to you and give you some free stuff that's going to help you grow and improve your business. And you will have a resource in which you can ask questions to other property management entrepreneurs get some really good ideas and it's an awesome community. And it's growing rapidly, right? It's growing rapidly. So make sure you get into the DoorGrow Club. Go to DoorGrowClub.com and that's it for today. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:39:01] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:28] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

DoorGrow has changed a lot in the last few years. We've added tons of new features and perks for our clients as well as new coaches… including Sarah Hull, COO and property management growth coach. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull to learn more about Sarah's role at DoorGrow, operations, and how you can scale your property management company. You'll Learn... [02:47] Sarah's Property Management Experience [05:19] Improving Operations and Cutting your Staffing Costs in Half [15:38] Why You Need an Operator in Your Business [22:02] Personality Types and Their Roles in a Business [27:24] The Clue that You Need a Better Team Tweetables “You can't build the right team around the wrong person.” “Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day-to-day is something you don't enjoy doing every day.” “Is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful?” “The most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: Here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. [00:00:18] Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker.  [00:00:36] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate gateway to high trust, real estate deals, relationships, and residual income At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their business businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host along with Sarah here, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:22] All right, so I'm already messing up the intro as I'm reading it because I'm looking and seeing her here in the screen, and I find her highly distracting. So, we were talking before we talked last night, we're like, what are we going to talk about on the podcast? And and then this morning, I said, what are we going to talk about? She says, I don't know, we only talked for like five minutes about last night, and we didn't come to a conclusion. So, I said, let's talk about you. Can I intro you and brag about you first? Sure, go ahead. So I wanted, I thought we would talk about Sarah today because she's probably a lot more interesting certainly to look at than myself and maybe to listen to. So I thought we would talk about her. So, I'll tell you a little bit about Sarah. So what's really amazing about Sarah and what I really like about her is that her wrists are really tiny.  [00:02:10] Sarah: That's really, it is true. It's not not true.  [00:02:14] Jason: My hands are not enormous. Dude hands. I buy child bracelets for her. I'm just kidding. All right, so  [00:02:19] Sarah: I have a five inch wrist. So like I can take, I can actually wrap my my pinky and my thumbs and touch. That's about, and they overlap. So it's about this big.  [00:02:31] Jason: Oh yeah. I can do the pinky as well. That's, yeah. Very small.  [00:02:34] Sarah: I train a lot on the rest. Get them that way.  [00:02:37] Jason: I do actually like that. I think it's a cute trait. All right. But I'm joking. What, what I really want to say is, so what's interesting to the audience is that Sarah has managed her own property management business. She has exited that. She sold it. Great job, by the way. Mm-hmm. And she managed a decent amount. At that size, most property managers have a team, like a full team, like five to 10 people I've seen. And usually at the stage, these companies are very unprofitable. Like this is the worst profit margin stage they've been at in their business. And they get stuck. And I call this area the second sand trap. They can't afford to really like expand or do more marketing or, and they're just not able to take a lot out of the business and, and their profits are all getting eaten up by staffing costs. Now Sarah had one part-time person, boots on the ground part-time and managed her business remotely part-time. Part-time, yeah. She was bored. Very. And people are like, well, these must have been really nice properties. These were C class properties? Duplexes, small plexes. [00:03:52] Sarah: Yes. We had a good mix of single family, duplex, triplex, and then I think we had maybe two that were like 10 units, which was kind of big for my area, but  [00:04:03] Jason: Okay. Yeah. And so, what was your profit margin?  [00:04:08] Sarah: Over 60%. Okay. 60% was a not great amount.  [00:04:12] Jason: Okay, so a lot of you dream of that, right? And you think, how's that even possible? It's possible because one, Sarah is very efficient. She's a very good operator. That's why she is now the COO of DoorGrow. And everything in the business is better as a result of having her in the business. Everything's improved. But I wanted to qualify Sarah as a badass. Like she's really good at what she does, and she wasn't really connected to the property management industry. She just did what made sense to her. And she didn't really want to be talking to tenants and she didn't really want to be dealing with talking to the owners very often, and she just set up her business in a way that was very efficient. And so we'll be talking about that in the priorities training. So, Sarah also has come into DoorGrow and she runs all of our operations. She runs I everything that I've taught her that I like I've developed DoorGrow os and how we plan our cadence. She just knows it to the point where she can teach it. And she learned it all very quickly. And now she's the one that coaches clients how we did our hiring. She like has improved on that and built it out even more and teaches clients how we do hiring and so we help clients get all these systems in place to become more profitable and more efficient. Sarah does all that. So as an example, why don't you share the story of maybe Jade and Andrew. I think that's a great story. Because they were at a similar size of a business as you had had.  [00:05:46] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, they had about 188 units and they had 11 team members total, like 11. So really, really overstaffed. And some of them were in the office and some of them were VAs and we just really had to like dive in because they said, well, like, what are they doing? And they kind of gave me like a surface answer. Like, oh, well this person does this and they do this. And I said, yeah, but like, what are they really doing? Because with 188 leases, like, let's just pretend that. We had all hundred and 88 due in the same month with, which isn't going to be the case. We're going to, spread that over the course of multiple months. But if we had all hundred 88, due even in one month, I still can't figure out what, two or three leasing agents are doing with 40 hours a week every single week. So we are just really going through and trying to figure out like, who's doing what. And sometimes I find that either no one's doing something or two people are doing something. And if two people are doing it, just know that it's not getting done.  [00:06:56] Jason: That's a 17 to one ratio. I just did the math. [00:06:58] So that's, that's for each, for every 17 doors, they have a team member.  [00:07:04] Sarah: It was really bad. So we just kind of went through with them and figured out like, what is everybody actually doing? What should everybody be doing? And then how many people is it really actually going to take? And they they had a lot of meetings and discussions with each other and then like we kind of met a couple times throughout this process and they came to the conclusion that they needed to let go of about half of their team. And they did. And then once they did that, all of a sudden they're like, Hey, we're like profitable and we're making money. But when we first started talking with them, they said like, actually, we're losing money every month. Like we can't pay ourselves. We can't take anything and we're losing money. Like this business is costing me money to run every single month. Yeah, little uncomfortable situation to be in, especially because property management isn't, it's not easy, it's not a cake walk. You're not, like doing nothing all day. So if you're in a business like this, And it is complicated and it is challenging. Then the least you should be able to do is like get yourself a decent profit margin so that you can make sure that you're paying yourself and that your business isn't struggling to keep up with. [00:08:14] Jason: Drive this home. Sarah did one call with them and the result of that one call was, what? What are all the results?  [00:08:21] Sarah: Well, on the one call, they realized, I have no idea what most of the people are actually doing. Like, they gave me the answer and I'm like, yeah, but how do you spend 40 hours a week doing that thing? [00:08:32] Yeah. And from there they realized like, we need to make major, major changes to our team. And most of these people are going to have to go. On the second call, that's when they actually decided to take action. Okay. And they got rid of, so. [00:08:47] Jason: The second call, which is she did this one call after that. [00:08:51] Mm-hmm. They fired half their team, half their team then, and as a result, their profit margin, which was not very good, which was negative, losing money, was then what? What did they get to? I didn't get their profit margin. Okay. It was significantly improved. Oh, no. Significantly improved.  [00:09:09] Sarah: I know they weren't losing money anymore. [00:09:10] Jason: Yeah. Yay. All right. We'll have to get some stats on that cause I want to brag during the priorities training about that. All right. So, Sarah has been able to dramatically improve our clients' businesses and lives. One of the things she's also helped a lot of clients with is completely restructuring their teams. Mm-hmm. They just did two of them last week. Okay. Why don't you explain Yeah. Kind of what you've done.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Well, all right, so one of them had about 360 doors and there were 1, 2, 3, 7 people on the team total. Which to some of you might sound like, yeah, that makes sense. And to me it's just, I'm like, there's too many people. And it was kind of like the same thing where everyone is saying like, oh, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, I'm so busy, and I'm looking at things going, I just don't understand what actually is is happening. Like, there's a lot of work that has to be done. It's like busy work. It's, it's like grunt work, but it's not, super helpful. It's just the things that are going to keep you afloat and that's like a bare minimum. So what we ended up doing is this client had one BDM, three property managers and then three assistants that were basically like assistant property managers. And we, he's like, I don't know if a lot of them are like good fits. [00:10:37] And I just, I, I really don't know what they're saying they're doing because they all tell me like, I'm so busy. I'm so busy, but what's actually happening? So when we kind of like dove into things, we realized like, you are overstaffed and very similar situation. He wasn't able to really take a lot out of the business because there was not a lot left. [00:10:57] Jason: Who is this? Kevin. Okay, so Kevin had three property managers. Mm-hmm. Each property manager and they were portfolio style. And each property manager had their own assistant. Yep. Because they were not, for some reason able to get done what they needed done. [00:11:13] And Kevin himself was having to do lots of things, put out lots of fires, and be involved in micromanaging everybody. And when I first shadowed, and--  [00:11:22] Sarah: he wasn't micromanaging anybody, there was nobody leading the team.  [00:11:25] Jason: Okay. Kevin wasn't leading the team then? Nope. So what, Kevin? No one was leading the team. [00:11:30] Sarah: Team was just kind of doing whatever they thought was the right thing to do.  [00:11:33] Jason: All right. Well, Kevin seemed pretty stressed out and what, yeah, and Kevin didn't have any personal support at all. Like nobody was helping Kevin with anything. He didn't even have his own assistant, but he got assistance for three people on the team that weren't very productive or efficient. So, what's the plan with Kevin? [00:11:53] Sarah: Yeah. So, half of those people are going too. So we decided the BDM is excellent, so we're going to keep the, the bdm. He is taking one of the people who was a property manager and she actually tests okay as a property manager on our assessment. But she tests better as an operator. She is like, is a better fit for kind of this operator position. So we're going to shift her into the operator role. We're going to keep one of the property managers to do all of everything. And then one VA who's going to be like an assistant property manager.  [00:12:29] Jason: Where'd the BDM come from? [00:12:30] Sarah: The BDM was already there. Oh, okay. He was one of the seven originals. Got it. So he had three property managers, three assistants, and one bdm. Those were the seven.  [00:12:39] Jason: Got it. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Who's the other one you said there were two? Josh. Josh? Yeah. What's the deal with Josh? [00:12:46] Sarah: Josh had about 300 doors and his whole team was kind of like a hodgepodge of people. Not that he was super overstaffed, but just people weren't in the right seats. And when you have the right people, but you're not putting them to the best like use, then you kind of still run into issues. And Josh, same thing, no operator. There was no operator on the team and largely he was kind of handling operations and he is like, I don't mind doing it. I like doing it, but I don't want to be the only one doing it, and I don't want it to always fall on me. Mm. So what we're doing with him is he had a VA that he had let go, like right in the middle of our talks. And he said, Hey, I'm hiring a new va. I said, great, let's like test the new VA to see if they're going to be a good fit. And then he decided, like we shifted his team around a couple of times and like through the assessments realized and he had talked with you. This was the one that we took who he thought was going to be the property manager and then put her in the BDM role instead. Mm-hmm. Because he is like, well, I don't know how to like, make everything work. So now he's he's going to have like a whole different team structure. Not that he had to let anybody go. He wasn't like crazy overstaffed. It's just he still wasn't super profitable because he didn't have the right people in the right spots. And he didn't have anyone doing the operations. Mm. You can get as big as you'd like, but if you don't have someone handling the operations, and this is that back end piece, this is not front end stuff, like everyone always, this is what we start with, is we start doing front end stuff. Because when you start your business, you are doing the front end stuff, you're doing the leasing, and you're doing the showings, and you're talking to tenants, and you're handling the maintenance.  [00:14:37] This is all the front end stuff. This is the stuff that absolutely must be done just to make sure that the business runs. When your business reaches a certain size, you now need to have someone doing the backend stuff. Mm-hmm. And if you're not having anyone doing like the backend stuff, which is like, hey, making sure that everyone on the team is following the same direction and everybody is contributing to the vision of the CEO and running things like your daily huddles and your strategic planning and doing hiring and firing and getting job descriptions, doing team reviews like. For those of you that are hearing all of this and you're going, blah, that sounds horrible, then it means you're probably not the operator. And at some point, if you're not an operator, it's okay. Jason's not an operator, like he doesn't like that. It's not his brain functions. So you need the counterpart whose brain does function like that, and that would be me. [00:15:29] Jason: I like to build out the systems and I must have been mis mixing up Josh's team. I think you did team with Kevin, so I think you did. Yeah, I remember Josh. So the most important person you'll ever hire in your business will be the operator. That's very true. And because visionary entrepreneurs do not like the details. I like building out the systems. I like creating DoorGrow, hiring and DoorGrow os and these systems. But I don't want to run them in my own business. I want someone else to run them because running those things is not as fun and it actually, the results are not as good because especially with planning, if I run all the planning, it's not as good. Bad, and so bad. [00:16:09] Sarah: There was one week where I couldn't run the planning meeting because I was on a flight and I said, can you just run the planning meeting? And he did it. And I came back and I was like, I don't know what happened in here, but this is bad.  [00:16:20] Jason: It was okay. I did just fine. It was bad. So the issue-- just fine. The issue is it's not fun for me to run the meetings, but also when it comes to like actual strategic planning, we as the visionary or as the main leader of the business, or even as the operator, we have to be the last to speak. Otherwise, we influence things. And if I run the meeting, it's really hard for me not to say certain things and not to steer things a certain way. [00:16:48] And so I don't get as valid of feedback from the team. I don't get as valid of information. So what happens is as visionaries, a lot of times we think we have all the best ideas. And it's not generally true, right? Our team members are closer and more connected to what's actually happening on the ground, and they can see things we can't see, and they have ideas that we don't have, and they can share these things with us, and we can get their buy-in into the plan if they help create it. [00:17:16] But when we are just top down pushing everything, because we think we're the visionary, and this is one reason I really don't like EOS. One of the big fundamental flaws in EOS is they intentionally overinflate the ego of the visionary. The visionary has all the best ideas and they're so important, and that feeds the ego and it helps them to sell integrators, which in their accountability chart, they place the visionary at the top, and then they have a line going down. And this is just a fancy name for a stupid org chart that doesn't make sense, but you have the visionary connected to the operator. Which they call an integrator. And the integrator then is connected to everyone else on the team. This is one of the most flawed structures I've ever seen, and nobody runs their business this way because integrators or operators are not the people that should be over sales and marketing generally. They're not the people that, because they have a very different personality type, they're opposite. And they want to conserve and they want to make sure money is handled well and they don't want to take risks and they don't want to, like, this is more stuff for maybe your head of sales and marketing or maybe your BDM or whoever you want to place in your executive team. They're really usually equals, but they have to report their stats. Everybody reports their stats to the operator. And so the challenge is we have to have a system in which the team can all give feedback and give information first, and it isn't top down. It's really bottom up. And this is how we designed DoorGrow Os and why people that come from the EOS system get a much bigger result and a bigger yield from their team and much more profitability than they were able to get under u s or traction or rocket fuel, right? [00:19:00] These are some of the things that Sarah's able to do with some of our clients. And I have to say, it's amazing to be able to have somebody that I can trust to not just understand all this stuff. Because she, she's super sharp but also to be able to teach it to clients and to be able to help clients work through all of this and trust that it's just going to be handled and that's really what we want in a great member of our team or in a business partner. [00:19:25] Or with anybody that we work with, we want people that we can trust to just handle stuff and to do it well. Sarah does it really well, so, what else should we say about you?  [00:19:36] Sarah: I think that's just how my brain works. Like every job that I've ever worked before I owned my own business, I would be there for a little bit and it was super clear to me like, Hey, if we make these changes or if we do these things differently, or if we just shift this a little bit, it's going to be better and here's how it's going to be better and why. [00:19:55] And it's so frustrating for me when you know, like I was at multiple insurance companies. Before like I kind of got into property management and I on all of them, I was like, oh, we could just do it like this. Well, we don't do it like that. I'm like, I know you don't do it like that, but you should do it like that and here's why. And when it's frustrating for me where I'm like, oh, you could just make these changes and you could do things like this. And this is just how I think my, my brain is just wired to work. because I can like look at the overall picture of things and I'm like, well, why do we do things like this? You could do it like this instead and we should change this and this should be different. And that's really good. This is really great. Keep this, but change this little thing. And then these are the results that you'll have. And at all of the insurance companies I had worked with prior, I had like made some suggestions and they're like, oh no, we're not going to do that. We can't do that, we can't do that. So I think looking back, it's funny for me because I'm like, oh well yeah, I was kind of, almost like destined to like get in and, and run my own business because then if I think, Hey, we should do things like this because of this, then I can just do them. I don't have to go and ask like, oh, hey, can I really think this would help your business? Like, we can do it. And they're like, no.  [00:21:08] So now, like, just looking back, I'm just able to kind of pick it apart and see things that sometimes other people don't see because you're just, you're too close to it. Mm. And, and it's it's personal for people too. They're like, oh, this is my business and I'm really proud of it and this, I worked so hard and I know, like, I know what goes into running a business. Like I know it, blood, sweat, and tears doesn't even begin to cover it. I understand that. And that being said, I think that's one of the reasons why you should be looking to improve it. So if you can make a few small changes, like your, your ego might have a little bit of a bruise, right? But is it worth the trade off? Like, is the bruised ego worth a better, more profitable business that takes, a lot more off your plate and is less stressful? So for sometimes, sometimes people are like, no. I don't want that. I just want to know that I have all the answers and I'm right all the time, and that's okay. [00:22:02] Jason: All right, so what's unique about Sarah, and some of you might identify with her a little bit. So in Myers-Brigg, she's probably an INTJ.  [00:22:13] Sarah: Well, not probably, I'm like the epitome of INTJ. [00:22:16] Jason: So INTJ. Is very intuitive. They are introverted. They're a thinker and they're judging. Now INTJs are because they're super intuitive. They're called the strategist because they're logical and they figure out solutions to things, but what's I think really in interesting, and I think there's women's intuition and she's very intuitive. She just knows things without knowing why it's true. Mm, yeah. Like she's like, there's a problem over here in the, in our business or there's a problem over here and I don't know why, but it, something's not right. So. And what's frustrating is I will say no. I don't see it. Like everything's fine. And she's always right. She loves when I say, you were right. She loves it a little too much by the way. But she's usually right. And so I've learned to trust her intuition tuition and sometimes I think our unconscious. Has a lot of information and can process a lot more than our conscious mind can and picks up on little details and things. Mm-hmm. And has worked some things out and just knows things and it bubbles up to the surface of our conscious mind and we're like, Hey, something's off here. And she gets these flashes of intuition that when there's like some sort of threat and things like this as well. So I've learned to trust your intuition because it's proven accurate multiple times. And I've always considered myself fairly intuitive in the business, but her intuition is kind of next level. And so I think being able to trust your gut and having a partner in the business or some, or an operator that you can trust, their gut can have a significant impact as well. [00:23:52] So I'm a bit opposite of her. I'm an ENTP. So we both are the intuitive, which is the n and we're both thinkers. Thinkers. But. I am a bit more extroverted probably. Even though I really feel like an introvert a lot of times, but I like need to be around some people occasionally. [00:24:12] Sarah: Well, I know, but you usually like will kind of, you'll you'll break in that arena before I do. You're like, we like I just want to get out of the house and be around people and I'm like, oh, I don't.  [00:24:22] Jason: Yeah. And then I'm definitely more, we think very differently. Like very differently. Mm-hmm. I'm perceiving and you're judging and perceiving means my desk is chaos right now. If you could see it. And it means I love pulling in ideas from lots of different places. I have a crazy variety of books on the bookshelf over here. I've like, I pull in things from a lot of places to formulate my thinking. Then I'm able to formulate some new ideas and I'm very creative that way. And that's part of, I think why we have such great IP at DoorGrow. I get a lot of coaching and a lot of input from different sources and we improve those ideas and we have, I think, the best ideas and innovate the quickest in the coaching space in this industry period, maybe out of a lot of coaching businesses. We consult and share ideas with other coaches and coaching businesses as well that we're in Masterminds with. I don't want to do all the implementation. I don't want to make sure everything gets done. And so I'll be like, Hey, here's this great idea, but Sarah also brings really great ideas to the table. She's like, Hey, I had this idea. And then she'll just rapidly implement, like she just gets it done. She's like, Hey, let's do this premium Mastermind event and have people, we'll rent out an Airbnb and we'll get people to go and we'll do this and it'll be awesome. And I'm like okay. And she just makes it happen. Sells all the tickets to it, gets everything organized. I just showed up and got to look cool and she made it all happen. [00:25:50] He's like, what are we doing at this event?  [00:25:52] I showed up, I'm like, so what are we doing?  [00:25:54] He's like, what are we even doing? I'm like, just-- [00:25:56] I'm like, okay, Sarah's leading this. So that was our last DoorGrow Live too. Like Mar-- Yes, that's true-- my assistant who did a lot of planning and Sarah like, handled some of the details and ideas and I was just like, all right, I'm just here. I'm the tech guy. [00:26:11] Sarah: Just when we call your name, get to the stage, just go up there.  [00:26:14] Jason: Yeah. When, when it's your turn, Jason, you go speak and talk about something and I did. So that's kind of how we work together. So, what else should we say about Sarah? She's still working on getting her last name changed because it was Hall and she's switching it to Hull. [00:26:31] Sarah: Well, right now, I really don't know what it is. Yeah. Truly. I don't know because the Social Security office has me as Hull.  [00:26:39] Jason: So you got to change. Yeah. To my last name.  [00:26:41] Sarah: Yeah. But the DMV is like, so super booked out.  [00:26:46] Jason: So not, not in Texas yet. Your license doesn't say it yet.  [00:26:50] Sarah: No, no. Not my license doesn't say it yet, but my social security card does. [00:26:56] Jason: So, and your social media, I think you've changed most of it. I changed it before. Long before this. Yeah. So, but Hall's her ex-husband's last name, so yeah. So I'm trying to like, he's trying to buy a vow. I'm trying to buy that vow. I think I paid for that vow. What's on your neck and on your finger. And I think I've, I think I've accomplished that. I don't know. I don't know. So, cool. And I don't know what else, what else should we say?  [00:27:24] So Sarah's one of the key coaches in our business here at DoorGrow. Our mission is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses, and she does that like, she helps to do that. She runs a lot of the group coaching calls when I'm focused on other things in the business, which is awesome that I have somebody I can trust to do that at a really high level and to do it really well and clients really appreciate her test.  [00:27:49] Sarah: When you're busy, I run the whole scale call. Yes, every single week. [00:27:54] Jason: Well, you do. You go beyond that. You also run some, some of the other calls that I-- Yeah, for sure. I used to run every call. You can run every call. So, yeah, which is awesome. All right, well I think, for those of you that you want to experience some of the magic of Sarah and improve your operations, you're struggling with things, your profit margin is not what you wish it would be, and you think you need more kPIs and micromanaging and to like squeeze more juice out of your team. That's probably, there might be a little bit of truth to that, but generally you'd probably need a better team or you need to optimize your team and that's one of the most profitable changes you should make first before you start messing with micromanagement, KPIs, more pressure, stuff like that. You need to make sure first you have the right team, and here's the clue that you don't have the right team: your day to day is something you don't enjoy doing every day. If you're still wearing hats that you don't enjoy doing and you've built an entire team around you, and you're the wrong person in the roles that you're sitting in, then you've built the wrong team around you. [00:29:05] It's pretty obvious if you look at it from that perspective. You can't build the right team around the wrong person. Can't build the right team around the wrong person. So, we can help you make sure first, who are you, we can help you figure that out, and what do you really enjoy? And we have processes for that. And then we can start to build the right team around you so that you are supported and you get to move closer and closer to having more fulfillment in your day-to-day. More freedom, more contribution, and more support. And then your team members will be able to have those four things and you'll get probably three times the output from those team members. And that's the biggest expense and that will give you the biggest profit in your business if you can get these systems in place that we can help install. With DoorGrow OS and DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow Flow and DoorGrow, CRM and DoorGrow. What am I missing? Flow hiring, crm, you said all of software. Those are our software. Okay, cool. Which we call our super system. So we're going to be doing this event on the 22nd, talking about priorities and how to increase your profit margin and how to decrease operational costs. We hope to see you there and or watch the replay if you see this later. Make sure to reach out to DoorGrow if you would like to experience some Sarah Magic. And until next time to our mutual growth, everyone.  [00:30:26] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:30:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today we chat with Cisco's head of developer content, community, and events, Michael Chenetz. We discuss everything from KubeCon to kindness and Legos! Michael delves into some of the main themes he heard from creators at KubeCon, and we discuss methods for increasing adoption of new concepts in your organization. We have a conversation about attending live conferences, COVID protocol, and COVID shaming, and then we talk about how Legos can be used in talks to demonstrate concepts. We end the conversation with a discussion about combining passions to practice creativity. We discuss our time at KubeCon in Spain (5:51) Themes Michael heard at KubeCon talking with creators (7:46) Increasing adoption of new concepts (9:27) We talk conferences, COVID shaming, and blamelessness (12:21) Legos and reliability  (18:04) Michael talks about ways to exercise creativity (23:20) Links: KubeCon October 2022: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america/ Nintendo Lego Set: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HVXMQ87?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_ED7NVBWPR8ANGT8WNGS5 Cloud Unfiltered podcast episode featuring Julie and Jason:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep125-chaos-engineering-with-julie-gunderson-and-jason/id1215105578?i=1000562393884 Links Referenced: Cisco: https://www.cisco.com/ Cloud Unfiltered Podcast with Julie and Jason: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep125-chaos-engineering-with-julie-gunderson-and-jason/id1215105578?i=1000562393884 Cloud Unfiltered Podcast: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/cloud/podcasts.html Nintendo Lego: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HVXMQ87 TranscriptJulie: And for folks that are interested in, too, what day it is—because I think we're all still a little bit confused—it is Monday, May 24th that we are recording this episode.Jason: Uh, Julie's definitely confused on what day it is because it's actually Tuesday, [laugh] May 24th.Michael: Oh, my God. [laugh]. That's great. I love it.Julie: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose, a podcast about reliability, learning from each other, and blamelessness. In this episode, we talk to Michael Chenetz, head of developer content, community, and events at Cisco, about all of the learnings from KubeCon, the importance of being kind to each other, and of course, how Lego translates into technology.Julie: Today, we are joined by Michael Chenetz. Michael, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?Michael: Yeah. [laugh]. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. And I'm really good at breaking things, so I guess that's why I'm asked to be here is because I'm superb at it. What I'm not so good at is, like, putting things back together.Like when I was a kid, I remember taking my dad's stereo apart; wasn't too happy about that. Wasn't very good at putting it back together. But you know, so that's just going back a little ways there. But yeah, so I work for the DevRel at Cisco and my whole responsibility is, you know, to get people to know that know a little bit about us in terms of, you know, all the developer-related topics.Julie: Well, and Jason and I had the awesome opportunity to hang out with you at KubeCon, where we got to join your Cloud Unfiltered podcast. So folks, definitely go check out that episode. We have a lot of fun. We'll put a link in the [show notes 00:02:03]. But yeah, let's talk a little bit about KubeCon. So, as of recording this episode, we all just recently traveled back from Spain, for KubeCon EU, which was… amazing. I really enjoyed being there. My first time in Spain. I got back, I can tell you, less than 24 hours ago. Michael, I think—when did you get back?Michael: So, I got back Saturday night, but my bags have not arrived yet. So, they're still traveling and they're enjoying Europe. And they should be back soon, I guess when they're when they feel like they're—you know, they should be back from vacation.Julie: [laugh].Michael: So. [laugh].Julie: Jason, how about you? When did you get home?Jason: I got home on Sunday night. So, I took the train from Valencia to Barcelona on Saturday evening, and then an early morning flight on Sunday and got home late Sunday night.Julie: And for folks that are interested in, too, what day it is—because I think we're all still a little bit confused—it is Monday, May 24th that we are recording this episode.Jason: Uh, Julie's definitely confused on what day it is because it's actually Tuesday, [laugh] May 24th.Michael: Oh, my God. [laugh]. That's great. I love it. By the way, yesterday was my birthday so I'm going to say—Julie: Happy birthday.Michael: —happy birthday to myself.Julie: Oh, my gosh, happy birthday. [laugh].Michael: Thank you [laugh].Julie: So… what is time anyway?Jason: Yeah.Michael: It's all good. It's all relative. Time is relative.Julie: Time is relative. And so, you know, tell us a little bit about—I'd love to know a little bit about why you want folks to know about, like, what is the message you try to get across?Jason: Oh, that's not the question I thought you were going to ask. I thought you were going to ask, “What's on your Amazon wishlist so people can send you birthday presents?”Julie: Yeah, let's back up. Let's do that. So, let's start with your Amazon wishlist. We know that there might be some Legos involved.Michael: Oh, my God, yeah. I mean, you just told me about a cool one, which was Optimus Prime and I just—I'm already on the website, my credit card is out and I'm ready to buy. So, you know, this is the problem with talking to you guys. [laugh]. It's definitely—you know, that's definitely on my list. So, anything that, anything music-related because obviously behind me is a lot of music equipment—I love music stuff—and anything tech. The combination of tech and music, and if you can combine Legos and that, too, man that would just match all the boxes. [laugh].Julie: Just to let you know, there's a Lego Con. Like, I did not know this until last night, actually. But it is a virtual conference.Michael: Really.Julie: Yeah. But one of the things I was looking at actually on Lego, when you look at their website, like, to request one of their speakers, to request one of their engineers as a speaker, they actually don't do that because they get so many requests for their folks to speak at conferences, they actually have a dedicated part of their website that talks about this. So, I thought that was interesting.Michael: Well listen, just because of that, if they want somebody that's in, you know, cloud computing, I'm not going to go talk for Lego. And I know they really want somebody from cloud computing talking to Lego, so, you know… it's, you know, quid pro quo there, so that's just the way it's going to work. [laugh].Julie: I want to be best friends with Lego people.Michael: [laugh]. I know, me too.Julie: I'm just going to make it a goal in life now to have one of their engineers speak at DevOpsDays Boise. It's like a challenge.Michael: It is. I accept it.Julie: [laugh]. With that, though, just on other Lego news, before we start talking about all the other things that folks may also want to hear about, there is another new Lego, which is the Van Gogh Starry Night that has been newly released by the time this episode comes out.Michael: With a free ear, right?Julie: I mean—[laugh].Michael: Is that what happens?Julie: —well played. Well, played. [laugh]. So, now you really got to spend a lot of time at KubeCon, you were just really recording podcast after podcast.Michael: Oh, my God. Yeah. So, I mean, it was great. I love—because I'm a techie, so I love tech and I love to find out origin stories of stuff. So, I love to, like, talk to these people and like, “Why did that come about? How did—” you know, “What happened in your life that made you want to do this? Who hurt you?” [laugh].And so, that's what I constantly try and figure out is, like, [laugh], “What is that?” So, it was really cool because I had, like, Jimmy Zelinskie who came from CoreOS, and he came from—you know, they create, you know, Quay and some of this other kinds of stuff. And you know, just to talk about, like, some of the operators and how they came about, and like… those were the original operators, so that was pretty cool. Varun from Tetrate was supposed to come on, and he created Istio, you know? So, there were so many of these things that I just geek out knowing about, you know?And then the other thing that was really high on our list, and it's really high from where I am, is API quality, API testing, API—so really, that's why I got in touch with you guys because I was like, “Wow, that fits in really good, you know? You guys are doing stuff that's around chaos, and you know, I think that's amazing.” So, all of this stuff is just so interesting to me. But man, it was just a whirlwind of every day just recording, and by the end that was just like, you know, “I'm so sorry, but I just, I can't talk anymore.” You know, and that was it. [laugh].Jason: I love that chatting with the creators. We had Zack Butcher on who is also from Tetrate and one of the early Istio—Michael: Yeah, yeah.Jason: Contributors. And I find it fascinating because I feel like when you chat with these folks, you start to understand the context of why things were built. And it—Michael: Yes.Jason: —it opens your brain up to, like, cool, there's a software—oh, now I know exactly why it's doing things that way, right? Like, it's just so, so eye-opening. I love it.Julie: With that, though, like, did you see any trends or any themes as you were talking to all these folks?Michael: Yeah, so a few real big trends. One is everybody wants to know about eBPF. That was the biggest thing at KubeCon, by far, was that, “We want to learn how to do this low-level kernel stuff that's really fast, that can give us all the information we need, and we don't have to use sidecars and things like that.” I mean it was—you know, that was the most excitement that I saw. OTel was another one for OpenTelemetry, which was a big one.The other thing was simplification. You know, a lot of people were looking to simplify the Kubernetes ecosystem because there's so much out there, and there's so many things that you have to learn about that it was super hard, you know, for somebody to come into it to say, “Where do I even start?” You know? So, that was a big theme was simplification.I'm trying to think. I think another one is APIs, for sure. You know, because there's this whole thing about API sprawl. And people don't know what their APIs are, people just, like—you know, I always say people can see—like, developers are lazy in a good way, and I consider myself one of them. So, what that means is that when we want to develop something, what we're going to do is we're just going to pull down the nearest API that does what we need, that has the best documentation, that has the best blog, that has the best everything.We don't know what their testing strategy is; we don't know what their security strategy is; we don't know if they use other libraries. And you have to figure that stuff out. And that's the thing that—you know, so everything around APIs is super important. And you really have to test that stuff out. Yes, people, you have to test it [laugh] and know more about it. So, those are those were the big themes, I think. [laugh].Julie: You know, I know that Kerim and I gave a talk on observability where we kind of talked more high-level about some of the overarching concepts, but folks were really excited about that. I think is was because we briefly touched on OpenTelemetry, which we should have gone into a little bit more depth, but there's only so much you can fit into a 30-minute talk, so hopefully we'll be able to talk about that more at a KubeCon in the future, we [crosstalk 00:09:54] to the selection committee.Michael: Hashtag topics?Julie: Uh-huh. [laugh]. You know, that said, though, it really did seem like a huge topic that people just wanted to learn more about. I know, too, at the Gremlin booth, a lot of folks were also interested in talking about, like, how do we just get our organization to adopt some of these concepts that we're hearing about here? And I think that was the thing that surprised me the most is I expected people to be coming up to the booth and deep-diving into very, very deep, technical-level questions, and really, a lot of it was how do we get our organization to do this? How can we increase adoption? So, that was a surprise for me.Michael: Yeah, you know what, and I would say two things to that. One is, when you talk about Chaos Engineering, I think people think it's like rocket science and people are really scared and they don't want to claim to be experts in it, so they're like, “Wow, this is, like, next-level stuff, and you know, we're really scared. You guys are the experts. I don't want to even attempt this.” And the other thing is that organizations are scared because they think that it's going to, like, create mass hysteria throughout their organization.And really, none of this is true in either way. In reality, it's a very, very scripted, very exacting stuff that you're testing, and you throw stuff out there and see what kind of response you get. So, you know, it's not this, like, you know—I think people just have—there needs to be more education around a lot of areas in cloud-native. But you know, that's one of the areas. So, I think it's really interesting there.Julie: I think so too. How about for you, Jason? Like, what was your surprise from the conference or something that maybe—Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think my surprise was mostly around just seeing people coming back, right? Because we're now I would say, six months into conferences being back as a thing, right? Like, we had re:Invent last year in Vegas; we had KubeCon last year in LA, and so, like, those are okay events. They weren't, like, back to normal. And this was, I feel like, one of the first conferences, that it really started to feel back to normal.Like, there was much better attendance, there was much more just buzz and hallway tracking and everything else that we're used to. Like, the whole reason that we go to conferences is getting together with people and hanging out and stuff, and this one has so far felt the most back-to-normal out of any event that I've been to over the past six months.Michael: Can I just talk about one thing that I think, you know, people have to get over is, you know, I see a lot online, I think it was—I forget who it was that was talking about it. But this whole idea of Covid shaming. I mean, we're going to this event, and it's like, yeah, everybody wants to get out, everybody wants to learn things, but don't shame people just because they got Covid, everybody's getting Covid, okay? That's just the point of life at this point. So, let's just, you know, let's just be nice to each other, be friendly to each other, you know? I just have to say that because I think it's a shame that people are getting shamed, you know, just for going to an event. [laugh].Julie: See, and I think that—that's an interesting—there's been a lot of conversation around this. And I don't think anybody should be Covid-shamed. Look, I think that we all took a calculated risk in coming—Michael: Absolutely.Julie: To this event. I personally gave out a lot of hugs. I hugged some of the folks that have mentioned that they have come up positive from Covid, so there's a calculated risk in going. I think there has been a little bit of pushback on maybe how some of the communication has come out around it. That said, as an organizer of a small conference with, like, 400 people, I think that these are very complicated matters. And what I really think is important is to listen to feedback from attendees and to take that.And then we're always looking to improve, right?Michael: Absolutely.Julie: If everything that we did was perfect right out of the gate, then we wouldn't have Chaos Engineering because there'd be nothing [crosstalk 00:13:45] be just perfectly reliable. And so, if we take away anything, let's take away—just like what you said, first of all, Covid, you should never shame somebody for having Covid. Like, that's not cool. It's not somebody's fault that they caught an illness.Michael: Yes.Julie: I mean unless they were licking doorknobs. And that's a whole different—Michael: Yes. [laugh]. That's a whole different thing, right there.Julie: Conversation. But when we talk about just like these questions around cultural adoption, we talk about blamelessness; we talk about learning from failure; we talked about finding ways to improve, and I think all of that can come into play. So, it'll be interesting to see how we learn and grow as we move forward. And like, thank you to re:Invent, thank you to KubeCon, thank you to DevOpsDays Boise. But these conferences that have started going back in-person, at great risk to organizers and the committee because people are going to be mad, one way or the other.Michael: Yeah. And you can see that people want to be back because it was huge, you know?Julie: Yeah.Michael: Maybe you guys, I'm going to put in a feature request for Gremlin to chaos engineer crowds. Can we do that so we can figure out, like, what's going to happen when we have these big events? Can we do that?Julie: I mean, that sounds fun. I think what's going to happen is there's going to be hugs, there's going to be people getting sick, but there's going to be people learning and growing.Michael: Yes.Julie: And ultimately, I just think that we have to remember that just, like, our systems aren't perfect, and neither are people. Like, the fact that we expect people to be perfect, and maybe we should just keep some mask mandates for a little bit longer when we're at conferences with 8000 people.Michael: Sure.Julie: I mean, that's—Michael: That makes sense.Jason: Yeah. I mean, it's all about risk management, right? This is, essentially what we do in SRE is there's always a risk of a massive outage, and so it's that balance of, right, do what you can, but ultimately, that's why we have SLOs and things is, you can never be a hundred percent, so like, where do we draw the line of here are the things that we're going to do to help manage this risk, but you can never shoot for a perfectly, entirely safe space, right? Because then we'd all be having conferences in padded rooms, and not touching each other, and things like that. There's a balance there.And I think we're all just trying to find that, so yeah, as you mentioned, that whole, like, DevOps blamelessness thing, you know, treat each other with the notion that we're all trying to get through this together and do what we think is best. Nobody's just like John Allspaw said, you know, “Nobody goes to work thinking that, like, their intent is to crash everything and destroy the company.” No one's going to KubeCon or any of these conferences thinking, “Yeah, I'm going to be a super-spreader.”Julie: [laugh].Michael: Yeah, that would be [crosstalk 00:16:22].Jason: Like, everyone's trying not to do it. They're doing their best. They're not actively, like, aggressively trying to get you sick or intentionally about it. But you know—so just be kind to one another.Michael: Yeah. And that's the key.Julie: It is.Michael: The key. Be kind to one another, you know? I mean, it's a great community. People are really nice, so, you know, let's keep that up. I think that's something special about the, you know, the community around KubeCon, specifically.Julie: As we can refine this and find ways, I would take all of the hugs over virtual conferences—Michael: Yes.Julie: Any day now. Because, as Jason mentioned, is even just with you, Michael, the time we got to spend with you, or the time I kept going up to Jfrog's booth and Baruch and I would have conversations as he made me a delicious coffee, these hallway tracks, these conversations, that's what no one figured out how to recreate during the virtual events—Michael: Absolutely.Julie: —and it's just not possible, right?Michael: Yeah. I mean, I think it would take a little bit of VR and then maybe some, like, suit that you wear in order to feel the hug. And, you know, so it would take a lot more in order to do that. I mean, I guess it's technologically possible. I don't know if the graphics are there yet, so it might be like a pixelated version, like, you know, like, NES-style, or something like that. But it could look pretty cool. [laugh]. So, we'll have to see, you know?Julie: Everybody listening to this episode, I hope you're getting as much of a kick out of it as we are recording it because I mean, there are so many different topics here. One of the things that Michael and I bonded about years ago, for our listeners that are—not years ago; months ago. Again, what is time?Michael: Yeah. What is time? It's all relative.Julie: It is. It was Lego, though, and so we've been talking about that. But Michael, you asked a great question when we were recording with you, which is, like—Michael: Wow.Julie: Can—just one. Only one great question.Michael: [laugh].Julie: [laugh]. Which was, how would you incorporate Lego into a talk? And, like, when we look at our systems breaking and all of that, I've really been thinking about that and how to make our systems more reliable. And here's one of the things I really wanted to clarify that answer. I kind of went… I went talking about my Lego that I build, like, my Optim—not my Optimus Primes, I don't have it, but my Voltron or my Nintendo Lego. And those are all box sets.Michael: Yep.Julie: But one of the things if you're not playing with a box set with instruction, if you're just playing with just the—or excuse me, architecting with just the Lego blocks because it's not playing because we're adults now, I think.Michael: Yes, now it's architecting. Yes.Julie: Yes, now that we're architecting, like, that's one of the things that I was really thinking about this, and I think that it would make something really fun to talk about is how you're building upon each layer and you're testing out these new connection pieces. And then that really goes into, like, when we get into Technics, into dependencies because if you forget that one little one-inch plastic piece that goes from the one to the other, then your whole Lego can fall apart. So anyway, I just thought that was really interesting, and I'd wondered if you or Jason even gave that any more thought, or if it was just fleeting for you.Michael: It was definitely fleeting for me, but I will give it some more thought, you know? But you know, when—as you're saying that though, I'm thinking these Lego pieces really need names because you're like that little two-inch Lego piece that kind of connects this and this, like, we got to give these all names so that people can know, that's x-54 that's—that you're putting between x-53 and x-52. I don't know but you need some kind of name for these parts now.Julie: There are Lego names. You just Google it. There are actual names for all of the parts but—Michael: Wow. [laugh].Julie: Like, Jason, what do you think? I know you've got [unintelligible 00:19:59].Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because I am one of those, like, freeform folks, right? You know, my standard practice when I was growing up with Legos was you build the thing that you bought once and then you immediately, like, tear it apart, and you build whatever the hell you want.Michael: Absolutely.Jason: So, I think that that's kind of an interesting thing as we think about our systems and stuff, right? Like, part of it is, like, yeah, there's best practices and various companies will publish, like, you know, “Here's how to architect such-and-such system.” And it's interesting because that's just not reality, right? You're not going to go and take, like, the Amazon CloudFormation thing, and like, congrats, you're done. You know, you just implement that and your job's done; you just kick back for the rest of the week.It never works that way, right? You're taking these little bits of, like, cool, I might have, like, set that up once just to see what's happening but then you immediately, like, deconstruct it, and you take the knowledge of what you learned in those building blocks, and you, like, go and remix it to build the thing that you actually need to build.Michael: But yeah, I mean, that's exactly—so you know, Legos is what got me interested in that as a kid, but when you look at, you know, cloud services and things like that, there's so many different ways to combine things and so many different ways to, like—you know, you could use Terraform, you could use Crossplane, you could use, you know, any of the services in the cloud, you could use FaaS, you could use serverless, you could use, you know, all these different kinds of solutions and tie them together. So, there's so much choice, and what Lego teaches you is that, embrace the choice. Figure out and embrace the different pieces, embrace all the different things that you have and what the art of possibility is, and then start to build on that. So, I think it's a really good thing. And that's why there's so much correlation between, like, kind of, art and tech and things like that because that's the kind of mentality that you need in order to be really successful in tech.Jason: And I think the other thing that works really well with what you said is, as you're playing with Legos, you start to learn these hacks, right? Like, I don't have, like, a four-by-one brick, but I know that if I have three four-by-one flats, I can stack those three and it's the same height as a brick, right?Michael: Yep.Jason: And you can start combining things. And I love that engineering mentality of, like, I have this problem that I need to solve, I have a limited toolbox for whatever constraints, right, and understanding those constraints, and then cool, how can I remix what I've got in my toolbox to get this thing done?Michael: And that's a thing that I'm always doing. Like, when I used to do a lot of development, you know, it was always like, what is the right code? Or what is the library that's going to solve my problem? Or what is the API that's going to solve my problem, you know?And there's so many different ways to do it. I mean, so many people are afraid of, like, making the wrong choice, when really in programming, there is no wrong choice. It's all about how you want to do it and what makes sense to you, you know? There might be better options in formatting and in the way that you kind of, you know, format that code together and put them in different libraries and things like that, but making choices on, like, APIs and things like that, that's all up to the artist. I would say that's an artist. [laugh]. So, you know, I think it all stems though, when you go back from, you know, just being creative with things… so creativity is king.Jason: So Michael, how do you exercise your creativity, then? How do you keep up that creativity?Michael: Yeah, so there's multiple ways. And that's a great segment because one of the things that I really enjoy—so you know, I like development, but I'm also a people person. And I like product management, but I also like dealing with people. So really, to me, it's about how do I relate products, how do I relate solutions, how do I talk to people about solutions that people can understand? And that's a creative process.Like, what is the right media? What is the right demos? What is the right—you know, what do people need? And what do people need to, kind of, embrace things? And to me, that's a really creative medium to me, and I love it.So, I love that I can use my technical, I love that I can use my artistic, I love that I can use, you know, all these pieces all at once. And sometimes maybe I'll play guitar and just put it in the intro or something, I don't know. So, that kind of combines that together, too. So, we'll figure that piece out later. Maybe nobody wants to hear me play guitar, that's fine, too. [laugh].But I love to be able to use, you know, both sides of my brain to do these creative aspects. So, that's really what does it. And then sometimes I'll program again and I'll find the need, and I'll say, “Hey, look, you know, I realized there's a need for this,” just like a lot of those creators are. But I haven't created anything cool, but you know, maybe someday I will. I feel like it's just been in between all those different intersections that's really cool.Jason: I love the electric guitar stuff that you mentioned. So, for folks who are listening to this show, during our recording of the Cloud Unfiltered you were talking about bringing that art and technical together with electric guitars, and you've been building electric guitar pickups.Michael: Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, I love anything that can combine my music passion with tech, so I have a CNC machine back here that winds pickups and it does it automatically. So, I can say, “Hey, I need a 57 pickup, you know, whatever it is,” and it'll wind it to that exact spec.But that's not the only thing I do. I mean, I used to design control surfaces for artists that were a big band, and I really can't—a lot of them I can't mention because we're under NDA. But I designed a lot of these big, you know, control surfaces for a lot of the big electronic and rock bands that are out there. I taught people how to use Max for Live, which is an artist's, kind of, programming language that's graphical, so [NMax 00:25:33] and MSP and all that kind of stuff. So, I really, really like to combine that.Nowadays, you know, I'm talking about doing some kind of events that may be combined tech, with art. So, maybe doing things like Algorave, and you know, things that are live-coding music and an art. So, being able to combine all these things together, I love that. That's my ultimate passion.Jason: That is super cool.Julie: I think we have learned quite a bit on this episode of Break Things on Purpose, first of all, from the guy who said he hasn't created much—because you did say that, which I'm going to call you out on that because you just gave a long list of things that you created. And I think we need to remember that we're all creators in our own way, so it's very important to remember that. But I think that right now we've created a couple of options for talks in the future, whether or not it's with Lego, or guitar pickups.Michael: Yeah.Julie: Is that—Michael: Hey—Julie: Because I—Michael: Yeah, why not?Julie: —know you do kind of explain that a little bit to me as well when I was there. So, Michael, this has just been amazing having you. We're going to put a lot of links in the notes for everybody today. So, to Michael's podcast, to some Lego, and to anything else Michael wants to share with us as well. Oh, real quick, is there anything you want to leave our listeners with other than that? You know, are you looking to hire Cisco? Is there anything you wanted to share with us?Michael: Yeah, I mean, we're always looking for great people at Cisco, but the biggest thing I'd say is, just realize that we are doing stuff around cloud-native, we're not just network. And I think that's something to note there. But you know, I just love being on the show with you guys. I love doing anything with you guys. You guys are awesome, you know. So.Julie: You're great too, and I think we'll probably do more stuff, all of us together, in the future. And with that, I just want to thank everybody for joining us today.Michael: Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called, “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

Jason Swett is the author of the Complete Guide to Rails Testing. We covered Jason's experience with testing while building relatively small Ruby on Rails applications. Our conversation applies to just about any language or framework so don't worry if you aren't familiar with Rails.A few topics covered:- Listen to advice but be aware of its context. Something good for a large project may not apply to a small one- Fast feedback loops help us work quicker and tests are great for this- If you don't involve things like the database in any of your tests your application may not work at all despite your tests passing- You may not need to worry about scaling at the start for smaller or internal applications - Try to break features into the smallest pieces possible so they can be checked in and reviewed quickly- Jason doesn't remember the difference between a stub and a mock because he rarely uses themRelated Links:- Code with Jason- The Complete Guide to Rails Testing- Code With Jason PodcastTranscript:[00:00:00] Jeremy: today I'm talking to Jason Swett, he's the author of the complete guide to rails testing, a frequent trainer and conference speaker. And he's the host of the code with Jason podcast. So Jason, welcome to software sessions. [00:00:13] Jason: Thanks for having me. [00:00:15] Jeremy: from listening to your podcast, I get a sense that the size of the projects you work on they're, they're relatively modest.Like they're not like a super huge thing. There, there may be something that you can fit all within your head. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit to that first, so that we kind of get where your perspective is and the types of projects you work on are.[00:00:40] Jason: Yeah. Good question. So that is true. Most of my jobs have been at small companies and I think that's probably typical of the typical developer because most businesses in the world are small businesses. You know, there's, there's a whole bunch of small businesses for every large business. And so most of the code bases I've worked on have been not particularly huge.And most of the teams I've worked on have been relatively small And sometimes so small that it's just me. I'm the only person working on the application. I, don't really know any different. So I can't really compare it to working on a larger application. I have worked at, I worked at AT&T so that was a big place, but I was at, AT&T just working on my own solo project so that wasn't a big code base either.So yeah, that's been what my experience has been like.[00:01:36] Jeremy: Yeah. And I, I think that's interesting that you mentioned most people work in that space as well, because that's basically where I fall as well. So when I listened to your podcast and I hear you talking about like, oh, I have a, I have a rails project where I just have a single server and you know, I have a database and rails, and maybe I have nginx in front, maybe redis it's sort of the scale that I'm familiar with versus when I hear podcasts or articles, you know, I'm reading where they're talking about, oh, we have 500 microservices or we have 200 instances of the application.That's, that's not a space that I've, I've worked in. So I, I found it helpful to, to hear, you know, from you on your show that like, Hey, you know, not everybody is working on these gigantic projects.[00:02:28] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. It's not terribly relatable when you hear about those huge projects.And obviously, sometimes, maybe people earlier in their career can get the wrong idea about what's applicable to their situation. I feel like one of the most dangerous kinds of advice is advice that's good advice, but it's good advice for somebody else.And then I've, I've. Been victim of that, where I get some advice and maybe it's genuinely good advice, but it's not good advice for me where I am doing what I'm doing. And so, I apply the advice, but it's not the right thing. And so it doesn't work out for me. So I'm always careful to like asterisk a lot of the things I say where it's like, Hey, this is, this is good advice if you're in this particular situation, but maybe not for everybody.And really the truth is I, I try not to give advice these days because like advice is dangerous stuff for that very reason.[00:03:28] Jeremy: so, so when you mentioned you try not to give advice and you have this book, the complete guide to rails testing, would you not describe what's in the book as advice? I'm kind of curious what the distinction is there.[00:03:42] Jason: Yeah, Jeremy, right after I said that, I'm like, what am I talking about? I give all kinds of advice. So forget, I said that I totally give advice. But maybe not in certain things like like business advice or anything like that. I do give a lot of advice around testing and various programming things.So, yeah, ignore that part of what I said.[00:04:03] Jeremy: something that I found a little bit unique about rails testing was that a lot of the tests are centered around I guess you could call it like a full integration test, right? Because I noticed when working with rails, if I write a test, a lot of times it's talking to the database, it's talking to if, if I.Have an API or I have a website it's actually talking to the API. So it's actually going through all the layers and spinning up a database and all that. And I wonder if you, you knew how that work, like each time you run a test, is it creating a new database? So that each test is isolated or how does all that stuff actually work?[00:04:51] Jason: Yeah, good question. First. I want to mention something about terminology. So I think one of the most important things for somebody who's new to testing to learn is that in our industry, we don't have a consensus around terminology. So what you call an integration test might be different from what I call an integration test.The thing you just described as an integration test, I might call an acceptance test. Although I happen to also call it an integration test cause I use that terminology too, but I just wanted to give that little asterisk for the listener, because if they're like, wait, I thought an integration test was this.And not that anyway, you asked how does that work? So. It is true that with those types of rails tests, and just to add more terminology into the mix, they call those system tests or system specs, depending on what framework you're using. But those are the tests that actually instantiate a browser and simulating user input, exercise, the UI of the application.And those are the kinds of tests that like show you that everything works together. And mechanically how that works. One layer of it is that each test runs in a database transaction. So when you, you know, in order to run a certain test, maybe you need certain records like a user. And then I don't know if it's a scheduling test, you might need to create an appointment and whatever. All those records that you create specifically for that test that's happening inside of a database transaction. And then at the end of the test, the transaction is aborted. So that none of the data you create during the test actually gets persisted to the database. then regarding the whole database, it's not actually like creating a new database instance at the start of each test and then blowing it away.It's still the same database instance is just the data inside of each test is not being persisted at. [00:07:05] Jeremy: Okay. So when you run. What you would call, I guess you called it an acceptance test, right? Where it's going, it's opening up your website, it's clicking through the website, creating records, things like that. That's happening in a database instance that's created for, I guess, for all your tests that all your tests get to reuse and rails is automatically wrapping your test in a transaction.So even if you're doing five or 10 database queries at the end of all, that they all get rolled back because they're all within the same transaction.[00:07:46] Jason: Exactly. And the reason why we want to do that. Is because of a testing principle that you want your tests to be runnable in any order. And the key thing is you want your tests to be deterministic. So deterministic means that the starting state determines the in-state and it's the same every time, no matter what.So if you have tests a, B and C, it shouldn't be the case that you can run them in the order, ABC, and they all pass. But if you do it CBA, then test a fails because it should only fail. If something's actually wrong, it shouldn't fail for some other reason, like the order in which you run the tests. And so to ensure that property of deterministic newness we need to make it so that each test doesn't leak into the other tests.Cause imagine if that. Database transaction. thing didn't happen. And it's, it's only incidental that that's achieved via database transactions. It could conceivably be achieved some other way. That's just how this happens to work in this particular case. But imagine if no measure was taken to clean up afterward and I, I ran a test and it generated an appointment.And then the test that runs after that does some tests that involves like doing a count of appointments or something like that. And maybe like, coincidentally, my second test passes because I've always run the tests in a certain order. and so unbeknownst to me, test B only passes because of what I did in test a that's bad because now the thing that's happening is different from what I think is happening.And then if it flipped and when we ran it, test B and then test a. It wouldn't work anymore. So that's why we make each test isolated. So it can be deterministic.[00:09:51] Jeremy: and I wonder if you've worked with any other frameworks or any other languages, and if you found that the approaches and those frameworks or languages is similar to rails, like where it creates these, the transaction for you, does the rollback for you and all of that.[00:10:08] Jason: Good question. I have to plead ignorance. I've dabbled a little bit in testing and some other languages or frameworks, but not enough to be able to say anything smart about it. [00:10:22] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean in my experience and of course there are many different frameworks that I'm not familiar with, but in a lot of cases, I I've seen that they don't have this kind of behavior built in, like, they'll provide you a way to test your application, but it's up to you if you want to write code that will wrap everything in a transaction or create a new database instance per test, things like that.That's all left up to you. so I, I think it's interesting that that rails makes that decision for you and makes it to where you don't really have to think about that or make that decision. And for me personally, I found that really helpful.[00:11:09] Jason: Yeah, it's really nice. It's a decision that not everybody is going to be on board with. And by that decision, I mean the general decision of rails to make a lot of decisions for you. And it may not be the case that I agree with every single decision that rails has made, but I do appreciate that that the rails team or DHH, or whoever has decided that rails is just going to have all these sensible defaults.And that's what you get. And if you want to go tweak that stuff, I guess you can, but you get all this stuff this way. Cause we decided what we think is the best way to do it. And that is how most people use their, their rails apps. I think it's great. It eliminates a lot of overhead and then. Use some other technologies, I've done some JavaScript stuff and it's just astonishing how much boiler plate and how many, how much energy I have to expend on decisions that don't really matter.And maybe frankly, decisions that I'm not all that equipped to make, because I don't have the requisite knowledge to be able to make those decisions. And usually I'd rather just have somebody else make those decisions for me. [00:12:27] Jeremy: we've been talking about the more high level tests, the acceptance tests, the integration tests. And when you're choosing on how to test something, how do you decide whether it should be tested that, that level, or if it should be more of a unit level tests, something, something smaller[00:12:49] Jason: Good question. So I want to zoom out just a little bit in order to answer that question and come at it from a distance. So I recently conducted some interviews for a programmer job. I interviewed about 25 candidates, most of those candidates. Okay. And the first step of the interview was this technical coding exercise. most of the candidates did not pass. And maybe, I don't know. Five or six or seven of the candidates out of those 25 did pass. I thought it was really interesting. The ones who failed all failed in the same way and the ones who passed all passed in the same way. And I thought about what exactly is the difference.And the difference was that the programmers who passed, they coded in feedback loops. So I'll say that a different way, the ones who failed, they tried to write their whole program at once and they would spend 15, 20 minutes carefully writing the program. And then at the end of that 20 minutes, they would try to run it.And unsurprisingly to me the program would fail like on line 2 of 30, because nobody's smart enough to write that much code and have the whole thing work. And then the ones who did well. They would write maybe one line of code, run it, observe what happens, compare what they observed to what they expected to see, and if any corrections were needed, they made those corrections and ran it again.And then only once their expectations were satisfied, did they go and write a second line and they would re repeat that process again, that workflow of programming and feedback loops I think is super important. And I think it's what distinguishes, Hmm. I don't exactly want to say successful programmers from unsuccessful programmers, but there's certainly a lot to do with speed.like, think about how much slower it is to try to write your whole program, run it and see that it fails. And then try to find the needle in the haystack. It's like, okay, I just wrote 30 lines. There's a problem somewhere. I don't know where, and now I have to dig through and find it It's so much harder than if you just write one line and you see a problem and you know, that, that problem lines in that line, you just wrote.So I say all that, because testing is just feedback loops automated. So rather than writing a line and then manually running your program and using your own judgment to compare what you observed to what you expected to see you write a test that exercises your code and says, I expect to see this when this happens.And so the kind of test you write now to answer your question will depend first on the nature of the thing you're writing. But for like, if we take kind of the like typical case of, let's say I'm building a form that will allow me to create a customer in a system. And I put in the first name, last name and email address of the customer. that's a really basic like crud functionality thing. There's not a lot of complexity there. And so I am, to be honest, I might just not write a test at all and we can get into how I decide when to write a test and when not to, but I probably would write a test. And if I did, I would write a system spec to use the rails are spec terminology that spins up a browser.I would fill in the first name field with a first name, fill in the last name field with the last name, email, with email click, the submit button. And then I would assert that on the subsequent page, I see some indicator of success. And then if we think about something that. Maybe more involved, like I'm thinking about some of the complicated stuff I've been working on recently regarding um, coming up with a patient's balance in the medical system that I work on.That's a case where I'm not going to spin up a browser to check the correctness of a number. Cause that feels like a mismatch. I'm going to work at a lower level and maybe create some database records and say, when I, when I created this charge and when I create this payment, I expect the remaining balance to be such and such.So the type of test I write depends highly on the kind of functionality.[00:17:36] Jeremy: So it sounds like in the case of something that's more straight forward, you might write a high level test, I guess, where you were saying I just click this button and I see if the thing I expected to be created is there on the next page. And you might create that test from the start and then just start filling in the code and continually running that test you know, until it passes.But you also mentioned that in the case of something simple like that, you might actually. Choose to forego the tests and just take a look you know, visually you open the app and you click that same button and you can see the same result. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about how you decide, like, yeah, I'm going to write this test or no, I'm just going to inspect a visually[00:18:28] Jason: Yeah. So real quick before I answer that, I want to say that it's, it's not one of the tests is straightforward or the feature is straightforward that determines which kind of test I write, because sometimes the acceptance test that I write, which spins up a browser and everything. Sometimes that might be quite an involved test and in complicated feature, or sometimes I might write a lower level test and it's a trivially simple one.It has more to do with um, What's, what's the thing that I care about. Like, is it primarily like a UI based feature that, that is like the meat of it? Or is it like a, a lower level, like calculation type thing or something like that? That's kind of what determines which kind of right. But you asked when would I decide not to write a test.So the reason I write tests is because it's just like cost prohibitive to manually perform testing, not just in monetary terms, but like in emotional pain and mental energy and stuff like that. I don't want to go back and manually test everything to make sure that it's still working. And so the ROI on writing automated tests is almost always positive, but sometimes it's not a positive ROI.And so when I don't write it down, It's if these conditions are true, if the cost of that feature braking is extremely low. And if the I'll put that if, if the consequences of the feature breaking are really small and the frequency of the usage is low and the cost of writing the test is high, then I probably won't write a test.For example, if there's some report that somebody looks at once every six months and it's like some like maybe a front desk person who uses the feature and if it doesn't work, then it means they have to instead go get the answer manually. And instead of getting the answer in 30 seconds, it takes them five.Extremely low cost to the failure. And it's like, okay, so I'm costing somebody, maybe 20 bucks once every six months, if this feature breaks. And let's say this test is one that would take like an hour for me to write. Clearly it's better just to accept the risk of that feature breaking once in a while, which it's probably not going to anyway. So those are the questions I ask when I decide and, and to, to be clear, it's not like I run through all those questions for every single test I write in the vast, vast majority of cases. I just write the test because it's a no-brainer that it's, that it's better to write the test, but sometimes my instincts tell me like, Hey, is this really actually important to write a test for?And when I find myself asking that, then I say, okay, what's the consequences of the breakage? How hard is this test to write all that. [00:21:46] Jeremy: So you talked about the consequences being low, but you also talked about maybe the time to write the test being high. What are the types of tasks that, that take a long time to write?[00:21:58] Jason: Usually ones that involve a lot of setup. So pretty much every test requires some data to be in place data, either meaning database, data, or like some object structure or something like that. Sometimes it's really easy sometimes to set up is extremely complicated. and that's usually where the cost comes in.And then sometimes, sometimes you encounter like a technical challenge, like, oh, how do I like download this file? And then like inspect the contents of this file. Like sometimes you just encounter something that's like technically tricky to achieve. But more frequently when a test is hard to write it's because of the setup is hard.[00:22:49] Jeremy: and you're talking about set up being, you need to insert a whole bunch of different rows into your database or different things that interact with one, another things like that.[00:23:02] Jason: Exactly. [00:23:03] Jeremy: when you're testing a system and you create a database that has all these items in it for you to work with, I'm assuming that what's in your test database is much smaller than what's in the real database. So how do you get something that's representative so that if you only have 10 things in your tasks, but in production, there's thousands of them that you can catch that, Hey, this isn't going to work well, once it gets to production,[00:23:35] Jason: Yeah. that's a really interesting question. And the answers that I don't like, I usually don't try to make the test beta test database representative of the production database in terms of scale, obviously like the right data has to be there in order to exercise the test that it has to be true. But I don't, for example, in production at this moment I know there's some tens of thousands of appointments in the database, but locally at any given time, there are between zero and three or, or So appointments in any particular test, that's obviously nowhere near realistic, but it's only becomes relevant in a great, great minority of cases with, with regard to that stuff, the way I approach that is rather to So I'm thinking about some of those through the, for the first time right now, but obviously with performance in general premature optimization is usually not a profitable endeavor. And so I'll write features without any thought toward performance. And then once things are out there and perform it in production observe the bottlenecks and then fix the bottlenecks, starting with what's the highest ROI.And usually tests haven't come into the picture for me. It's cause like, okay. The reason for tests again is, so you don't have to go back and do that manual testing, but with these performance improvements, instead of tests, we have like application performance monitoring tools, and that's what tells me whether something needs an issue or people just say like, Hey, this certain page is slow or whatever.And so tests would be like redundant to those other measures that we have that tell us if there's performance.[00:25:38] Jeremy: Yeah. So that sorta touches on what you described before, where let's say you were writing some kind of report or adding a report and when you were testing it locally, it worked great generated the report. Uh, Then you pushed it out to production. Somebody went to run it and maybe because of an indexing problem or some other issue It times out, or it doesn't complete takes a long time, but I guess what you're saying is in a lot of cases, the, the consequences of that are not all that high.Like the person will try it. They'll see like, Hey, it doesn't work. Either you'll get a notification or they'll let you know, and then that's when you go in and go like, okay, now, now we can fix this.[00:26:30] Jason: Yeah. And I think like the distinction is the performance aspect of it. Because like with a lot of stuff, you know, if you don't have any tests in your application at all, there's a high potential for like silent failure. And so with the performance stuff, we have other ways of ensuring that there won't be silent failure.So that's how I think about that particular.[00:26:56] Jeremy: I guess another thing about tests is when you build an application, a lot of times you're not just interacting with your own database, you're interacting with third-party APIs. You may even be connecting to different pieces of hardware, things like that. So when you're writing a test, how do you choose to approach that?[00:27:23] Jason: yeah, good question. This is an area where I don't have a lot of personal experience, but I do have some there's another principle in testing that is part of the determinism principle where you don't want to involve external HTTP requests and stuff like that in your tests. Because imagine if I run my test today, And it passes, but then I run my test tomorrow and this third-party API is down and my test fails the behavior of my program didn't change. The only thing that's different is this external API is down right now. And so what I do for, for those is I'll capture the response that I get from the API. And I'll usually somehow um, get my hands on a success response and a failure response and whatever kind of response I want to account for.And then I'll insert those captured responses into my tests. So that then on every subsequent run, I can be using these canned values rather than hitting the real API.[00:28:37] Jeremy: I think in your um, the description of your book, you mentioned a section on, on stubs and mocks, and I wonder what you're describing here, which of those two things, is it? And what's the difference?[00:28:53] Jason: Yeah. it's such a tricky concept And I don't even trust myself to say it right every time that I want to remind myself of the difference between mocks and stubs. I have to go back to my own blog posts that I wrote on it and remind myself, okay, what is the difference between a mock and a stub? And I'll just say, I don't remember.Because this isn't something that I find myself dealing with very frequently. It's something that people always want to know about at least in the rails world. But I'll speak for myself at least. I don't find myself having to use or wanting to use mocks and stubs very much.I will say that both mocks and stubs are a form of a testable. So a mock is a testable and a stub is a testable and a testable. It's like a play on stunt double instead of using a real object or whatever it is, you have this fake object. And sometimes that can be used to like trick your program into behaving a certain way or it can be used to um, gain visibility into an area that you otherwise wouldn't have visibility into.And kind of my main use case for mocks and stubs when I do use them, is that when you're testing a particular thing, You want to test the thing you're interested in testing. You don't want to have to involve all the dependencies of the thing you're testing. And so I will like stub out the dependencies.So, okay. Here's an example. I have a rare usage of stubs in my, in my uh, test suite and dear listener. I'm going to use the word stub. Don't give too much credence to that. Maybe. I mean, mock, I don't remember. But anyway, I have this area where we determine a patient's eligibility to get a certain kind of medicine and there's a ton that goes into it and there's all these, like, there's, there's these four different, like coarse-grained determinations and they all have to be a yes in order for it to overall be a yes.That they can get this medicine. It has to do with mostly insurance. And then each one of those four core course grain determinations has some number of fine grain determinations that determines whether it is a yes or a no. If I weren't using mocks and stubs in these tests, then in order to test one determination, I would have to set up the conditions.This goes back to the setup, work stuff we talked about. I'd have to set up all the conditions for the medicine to be a yes. In addition to, to the thing I'm actually interested in. And so that's a waste because that stuff is all irrelevant to my current concern. Let me try to speak a little bit more concretely.So let's say I have determinations ABC. When I'm interested in determination, a I don't want to have to do all the setup work for determinations, B, C, and D. And so what I'll do is I'll mock the determinations for B, C and D. And I'll say for B, just have the function returned true for C same thing, just return true for D return.True. So it'd like short circuits, all that stuff and bypasses the actual logic that gives me the yes, no determination. And it just always gives me a yes. That way. There's no setup work for B, C, and D. And I can focus only on.[00:32:48] Jeremy: And I think it may be hard to say in this example, but would you, would you still have at least one test that would run through and do all the setup, do the checks for ABC and D and then when you're doing more specific things start to put in doubles for the others, or would you actually just never have a full test that actually did the complete setup?[00:33:14] Jason: well, here's how I'm doing this one. I described the scenario where I'm like thoroughly testing a under many different conditions, but stubbing out B, C and D. They don't have another set of tests where I thoroughly test B and stub out a C and D. And so on. I have one thorough set for, for each of those. If you're asking whether I have one that like exercises, all four of them, No.I just have ones for each of the four individually, which is maybe kind of a trade off. Cause it's arguable that I don't have complete confidence because I'm never testing the four together. But in the like trade off of like setup?work and all that, that's necessary to get that complete con confidence and the value of that, like additional, because really it's just like a tiny bit of additional con confidence that I would get from testing all those things together.In that particular case, my judgment was that that was not worth [00:34:19] Jeremy: yeah. Cause I was thinking from their perspective of sometimes I hear that people will have a acceptance test that covers sometimes you hear people call it the happy path, right. Where they everything lines up. It's like a very straightforward case of a feature. But then all the different ways that you can test that feature, they don't necessarily write tests for those, but they just write one for the, the base case.And then, like you said, you actually drill down into more specifics and maybe only test a, a smaller part there, but it sounds like in this case, maybe you made the decision that, Hey, doing a test, that's going to test all four of these things, even in the simplest case is going to involve so much setup and so much work that, that maybe it's not, not worth it in this case.[00:35:13] Jason: Yeah. And I'd have to go back and refresh my memory as to like what exactly this scenario is for those tasks. Because in general, I'm a proponent of having integration tests that makes sure multiple things work together. Okay. You might've seen that Gif where it says like um, two unit tests, zero integration tests, and there's like a cabinet with two doors.Each door can open on its own or, or maybe it's drawers. Each drawer can open on its own, but you can't open both drawers at the same time. And so I think that's not smart to have only unit tests and no integration tests. And so I don't remember exactly why I chose to do that eligibility test with the ABC and D the way I did.Maybe it was just cost-prohibitive to do it altogether. Um, One thing that I want to want to comment on regarding mocks and stubs, there's a mistake that's made kind of frequently where people overdo it with mocks and stuff. They misunderstand the purpose. The purpose again is that you want to test the thing you're testing, not the dependencies of the thing.But sometimes people step out the very thing they're testing. And so they'll like assert that a certain method will return such and such value, but they'll stub the method they're testing so that the method is guaranteed to return the same value and that doesn't actually test anything. So I just wanted to make, mention that as a common mistake to avoid [00:36:47] Jeremy: I wonder if you could maybe give an example of when you, you have a certain feature and the thought process you're going through where you decide like, yes, this is the part that I should have a stub or a mock for. And this is the part where I definitely need to make sure I run the code.[00:37:07] Jason: Well, again, it's very rare that I will use a mocker stub and it's not common that I'll even consider it for better or worse. Like we're talking about. The nature of rails tests is that we spin up actual database records and, and test our models with database data and stuff like that. In other ecosystems, maybe the testing culture is different and there's more mocks and stubs.I know when I was doing some coding with angular, there was a lot more mocking and stubbing. But with rails, it's kind of like everything's available all the time and we use the database a lot during testing. And so mocks and stubs don't really come into the picture too much. [00:37:56] Jeremy: Yeah. It's, it's interesting that you, you mentioned that because like I work with some projects that use C-sharp and asp.net, and you'll a lot of times you'll see people say like you should not be talking to the database in your tests. And you know, they go through all this work to probably the equivalent of a mock or a stub.But then, you know, when I, when I think about that, then I go like, well, but I'm not really testing how the database is going to react. You know, are my, are my queries actually valid. Things like that, because all this stuff is, is just not being run. in some other communities, maybe they're they have different ideas, I guess, about, about how to run tests.[00:38:44] Jason: Yeah, And it's always interesting to hear expressions. Like you should do this or you shouldn't do that, or it's good to do this. It's bad to do that. And I think maybe that's not quite the right way to think about it. It's more like, well, if I do this, what are the costs and benefits of doing this? Cause it's like, nothing exactly is a good thing to do or a bad thing to do.It's just, if you do this, this will happen as a consequence. And if you don't this won't and all that stuff. So people who don't want to talk to the database in their tests, why is that? What, what are the bad things they think will happen if you do that? The drawbacks is it appears to me are it's slow to use the database in any performance problem.Usually the culprit is the database. That's always the first thing I look at. And if you're involving the database and all of your tests, your tests are going to be much slower than if you don't use the database, but the costs of not talking to the database are exactly what you said, where you're like, you're not exercising your real application, you're missing an entire layer and maybe that's fine.I've never tried approaching testing in that way. And I would love to like, get some experience like working with some people who do it that way. Cause I can't say that I know for an absolute fact that that doesn't work out. But to me it just makes sense to exercise everything that you're actually using when the app runs.[00:40:18] Jeremy: what's challenging probably for a lot of people is that if you look online for how to do testing in lots of different frameworks, you'll get different answers. Right. And it's not clear what's gonna fit your situation right? And you know, to, to give an example of, we've been talking about how rails will it, it predominantly focuses on tests that, that talks to the database and it wraps everything in a transaction as we talked about before, so that you can reset the state and things like that.I've also seen in other frameworks where they'll say like, oh, you can run a database test, but you use this in-memory version of the database instead of actually talking to a real MySQL or Postgres instance, or they'll say, oh, for this test we're going to use SQLite in place of the Postgres database you're actually using in production.And it, it makes the, the setup, I suppose, easier. Um, And maybe it makes the tests run quicker, but then it's also no longer the same as what you're really running. So there's like a lot of different approaches that, that people describe and take. And I think it can be hard for, for people to know, like what, what makes sense for me.[00:41:42] Jason: Yeah. And this is another area where I have to plead ignorance because again, I don't have experience doing it the other way. Logically, I feel like my way makes sense, but I don't have empirical experience doing it the other way. [00:41:57] Jeremy: we've talked a little bit about how there's cases where you'll say I'm not going to do this thing because it's going to take a lot of time and I've weighed the benefits. And I wonder if you could give some examples of things where you spent a lot of time on something, and then in hindsight, you, you realize like this really wasn't worth it.[00:42:18] Jason: I don't think I have any examples of that because I don't think it tends to happen very much. I really can't emphasize enough how old, the case where I choose not to write a test for something is like a one in 5,000 kind of thing. It's really not something I do frequently. The mistake is overwhelmingly in the opposite direction.Like somebody may, maybe I will get lazy and I'll skip a test and then I'll realize, oh yeah, This is why I write tests because it actually makes everything easier. And uh, we get pain as as a consequence when we skip tests. So that's usually the mistake I make is not writing a test when I should, rather than writing a test when I should not have [00:43:08] Jeremy: So since then, in general, you, you said that not writing it is, is the, the mistake. How do you get people in the habit of. Of writing the tests where they feel like it's not this thing that's slowing them down or is in the way, but is rather something that's helping them with that feedback loop and is something that they actively want to do.[00:43:33] Jason: Yeah. So to me, it's all about a mindset. So there's a common perception that tests are something extra. Like I've heard stories about, like somebody gives a quote for a project and then the prospective client asks like, well, how much, if we skip tests, how much less would that be? And it's like, oh, it wouldn't be less.It'd be like five times more because tests are a time saver. So I want to try to dispel with that notion. But even so it can be hard to bring oneself, to write task because it feels like something that takes discipline. But in my case, I don't feel like it takes discipline. Because I remind myself of a true fact that it's actually the lazy and easy way to code is to code using tests.And it's the harder, more laborious way to write code. Not using tests because think about what's, what's the alternative to not writing tests. Like we said earlier, the alternative is to manually test everything. And that's just so painful, especially when it's some feature where like, I'm sure you have experience with this, Jeremy, you, you make a code change.And then in order to verify that the thing still works, you have to go through like nine different steps in the browser. And only on that last step, do you get that answer you're after. That's just so painful. And if you write a test, you can automate that. Some things that might present friction in that process, or just like a lack of familiarity with how to write tests and maybe a um, a lack of an easy process for writing tests.And just to briefly touch on that, I think something that can help reduce that. Is to write tests in the same way that I write code in feedback loops. So we talked about writing one line, checking, writing, another line, checking that kind of thing. I write my tests in the same way. First I'll write the shell of the test and then I'll run just the shell, even though it seems kind of dumb to just run the shell cause you know, it doesn't do anything. I do that just to demonstrate to myself that I didn't like make some typo or something like that. I'm starting from like a clean baseline. And then I'll write one line of my test. Maybe if I'm writing a system spec, I'll write a line that creates a user of rum that I know that nothing's going to happen when I run the test, but I'll run it just to see it run and make sure there's no errors.And then I'll add a line that says, log the user in and then I'll run that. And so on just one line at a time. There's this principle that I think is really useful when working, which is to separate the deciding what to do from the actually doing it. I think a lot of developers mixed those two jobs of deciding what to do and doing it in the same step.But if, if you separate those, so you'd like, decide what you're going to have your tests do. And then after that, so like maybe I'll open my test and I'll write in comments what I want to achieve, not in technical terms necessarily, but I'll just write a comment that says, create a user, right? Another comment that says, log in another comment that says, click on such and such.And then once I have those, there, I'll go back to that first line and convert that to code. Okay. My comment that says, create a user, I'll change that to the syntax that actually creates a user and again, using the feedback loop. So I'll run that so that I can, you know, once I'm, once I'm done writing all those comments that say what the test does, I'm now free to forget about it.And I don't have to hold that in my mental Ram anymore. And I can clear my mental RAM. Now all my mental RAM is available to bring, to bear on the task of converting my steps that I already decided into working syntax. If you try to do both those things at the same time, it's more than twice as hard. And so that's why I try to separate.[00:48:04] Jeremy: So that's interesting. So it's like you're designing, I guess, the feature, what you want to build in the context of the test first it's would that be accurate?[00:48:19] Jason: that certainly can be the case. So much of this is context dependent. I very regularly give my self permission to be undisciplined and to go on exploratory spikes. And so if I have like very, if I have a really vague idea about what shape a feature is going to take, I give myself permission to forget about tests and I just write some code and I feel cause there's two reasons to write code.You know, a code is not only a work product code is also a thinking. so I would let go into a different mode, I'll say, okay, I'm not trying to create a work product right now. I'm just using code as a thinking medium, to figure out what I'm even going to do. So that's what I'll do in that case. And then maybe I'll write the test afterward, but if it's very clear, what the thing is that I'm going to write, then I'll often write the test first again, in those two phases of deciding what it's going to be and the deciding how it works.And I won't do a thing where, where, like I write 10 test cases and then I go through one by one and write code to make them pass. Usually I'll write one test, make a pass, write a second test, make it pass and so on. [00:49:38] Jeremy: okay. So the more exploratory aspect, I guess, would be when. You're either doing something that you haven't done before, or it's not clear to you what the features should be is, is that right?[00:49:58] Jason: Yeah, like maybe it's a feature that involves a lot of details. There's like a lot of room for discretion. It could be implemented in more than one way. Like how would I write a test for that? If I don't even know what form it's going to take? Like there's decisions to be made, like, what is the, the route going to be that I visit for this feature?What am I even going to call like this entity and that entity and stuff like that. And I think that goes back to my desire to not juggle and manage. Multiple jobs at the same time. I don't want to, I don't want to overly mix the design job with the testing job. Cause testing can help with design, but design in like a code structure sense.I usually don't want to mix testing with like UI design and not even UI design, like, like design in the highest sense. Meaning like what even is this thing? How does it work? Big picture wise and stuff like that. That's not the kind of design that testing helps with in my mind of the kind of design that testing helps with again, is the code structure.So I want to have my big picture design out of the way before I start writing my test. [00:51:21] Jeremy: and in terms of the big picture design, is that something that you keep all in your head or are you writing that down somewhere? I'm just wondering what your process is.[00:51:34] Jason: Yeah, it can work a number of different ways in the past. I've done usability testing where I will do some uh, pen and paper prototypes and then do some usability testing with, with users. And then I will um, convert those pen and paper prototypes to something on the computer. The idea being pen and paper prototypes are the cheapest to create and change.And then the more you cement it, the more expensive it gets to change. So only once I'm fairly certain that the pen and paper prototypes are right. Will I put it into something that's more of a formal mock. And then once I have my formal mock-up and that's been through whatever scrutiny I want to put it through, then I will do the even more expensive step of implementing that as a working feature.Now having said all that, I very rarely do I go through all that ceremony. Sometimes a feature, usually a feature is sufficiently small, that all that stuff would be silly to do. So sometimes I'll start straight with the the mock-up on the computer and then I'll work off of that. Sometimes it's small enough that I'll just make a few notes in a note-taking program and then work off of that.What is usually true is that our tickets in our ticketing system have a bulleted list of acceptance criteria. So we want to make it very black and white. Very yes, no. Whether a particular thing is done and that's super helpful because again, it goes back to the mixing of jobs and separating of jobs.If we've decided in advance that this feature needs to do these four things. And if it does those four things it's done and it doesn't need to do anything more and if it doesn't meet those four criteria, then it's not done then building the thing is just a matter of following the instructions. Very little thinking is involved.[00:53:45] Jeremy: depending on the scope of the feature, depending on how much information you have uh, you could either do something elaborate, I suppose, where, you know, you were talking about doing prototypes or sketches and, and so on before you even look at code or there could be something that's not quite that complicated where you have an idea of what it is and you might even play with code a little bit to get a sense of where it should go and how it should work.But it's all sort of in service of getting to the point where you know enough about how you're going to do the implementation and you know enough about what the actual feature is to where you're comfortable starting to write steps in the test about like, these are the things that are going to happen.[00:54:35] Jason: Yeah. And another key thing that might not be obvious is that all these things are small. So I never work well, I shouldn't say never, but in general, I, don't work in a feature. That's going to be like a week long feature or something like that. We try to break them down into features that are at most like half.And so that makes all that stuff a lot easier. Like I use the number four as an example of how many acceptance criteria there might be. And that's a pretty representative example. We don't have tickets where there's 16 acceptance criteria because the bigger something is the more opportunity there is for the conceive design to turn out, not to be viable.And the more decisions that can't be made, because you don't know the later step until the earlier decision is made and all that kind of stuff. So the small size of everything helps a lot.[00:55:36] Jeremy: but I, I would imagine if you're breaking things into that small of a piece, then would there be parts that. You build and you tasked and you deploy, but to the user, they actually don't see anything. Is that the appraoch?[00:55:52] Jason: definitely, we use feature flags. Like for example, there's this feature we're working on right now, where we have a page where you can see a long list of items. The items are of several different types right now. You just see all of them all the time, but depending on who you are and what your role is in the organization, you're not going to be interested in all those things.And so we want people to be able to have check boxes for each of those types to show or hide those things. Whereas checkbox feature is actually really big and difficult to add. And so the first thing that I chose to do was to have us add just one single check box for one type. And even that one, single checkbox is sufficiently hard that we're not even giving people that yet.We coded it so that you get the check boxes and that one checkbox is selected by default. When you uncheck it, the thing goes away, but it's selected by default so that we can feature flag that. So the checkbox UI is hidden. Everything looks just the way it did before. And now we can wait until this feature is totally done before we actually surface it to users.So it's the idea of making a distinction between deployment and release. Cause if we try to do this whole big thing, it's, it's gonna take weeks. If we try to do the whole thing, that's just too much risk for something to go wrong. And then like, we're going to deploy like three weeks of work at once.That's like asking for trouble. So I'm a huge fan of feature flags. [00:57:35] Jeremy: Interesting. So it's like the, it's almost like the foundation of the feature is going in. And if you were to show it to the user well, I guess in this case, it actually did have a function right at you. You could filter by that one category. [00:57:52] Jason: oh, I was just going to say you're exactly right. It wouldn't be a particularly impressive or useful feature, but what we have is complete it's it's not finished, but it is complete. [00:58:06] Jeremy: I'm not sure if you have any examples of this, but I imagine that there are changes that are large enough that I'm not sure how you would split it up until you, you mentioned like half a days worth of time. And I, I wonder if either have examples of features like that or a general sense of how, what do you do if you, you can't figure out a way to split it up that small.[00:58:34] Jason: I have yet to encounter a feature that we haven't been able to break up into pieces that are that small. So, unfortunately, I can't really say anything more than that because I just don't have any examples of exceptions [00:58:49] Jeremy: For, for people listening, maybe that should be a goal at least like, see if you can make everything smaller, see if you can ship as little as possible, you know, maybe you don't hit that half a day mark, but at least give it a, give it a try and see what you can do.[00:59:10] Jason: yeah. And the way I care would characterize it, maybe wouldn't be to ship as little as possible at a time, but to give a certain limit that you try not to go over. And it's, it's a skill that I think can be improved with practice. You learn certain techniques that you can use over and over. Like for example, one way that I split things up sometimes is we will add the database tables in one chunk. And we'll just deploy that, cause that presents a certain amount of risk, you know, when you're adding database tables or columns or anything like that, like it's always risky when you're messing with the structure of the database. So I like to do just that by itself. And it's kind of tidy most of the time because because it's not something that's like naturally visible to the user is just a structural change.So that's an example of the kind of thing that you learn as you gain practice, breaking bigger things up into smaller pieces. [01:00:16] Jeremy: so, and, and that example, in terms of whatever issue tracking system you use, what, what would you call that? Would you just call that setting up schema for X future features, or I'm just kinda curious how you characterize that.[01:00:35] Jason: yeah, something like that. Those particular tickets don't have great names because ideally each ticket has some amount of value that's visible to the user and that one totally doesn't, it's a purely nuts and bolts kind of thing. So that's just a case where the name's not going to be great, but what's the alternative can't think of anything better. So we do it like that. [01:01:02] Jeremy: you feel like that's, that's lower risk shipping something that's not user-facing first. Then it is to wait until you have at least like one small thing that, you know, is connected to that change.[01:01:19] Jason: Yeah. I had a boss in the past who had a certain conception of the reason to do deployments. And, and her belief was that the reason that you deploy is to deliver value to the user which is of course true, but there's another really good reason to deploy, which is to mitigate risk. The further production and development are able to diverge from one another, the greater, the risk.When you do a deployment. I remember one particular time at that job, I was made to deploy like three months of work at once and it was a disaster and I got the blame because I was the one who did the work. And quite frankly, I was really resentful that that had. And that's part of what informs my preference for deploying small amounts of work at a time.I think it's best if things can be deployed serially, like rather than deploying in patches, just finish one thing, deploy it, verify it, finish the next thing, deploy it, verify it. I have the saying that it's better to be a hundred percent done with half your work than halfway done with a hundred percent of your work. For, for the hopefully obvious reason that like, if, if you have 15 things that are each halfway in progress, now you have to juggle 15 balls in your head. Whereas, if you have 15 things you have to do, and then you finish seven of them, then you can completely forget about those seven things that you finished and deployed and verified and all that.And your mental bandwidth is freed up just to focus on the remaining work. [01:03:10] Jeremy: yeah, that, that makes sense. And, and also if you are putting things out bit by bit, And something goes wrong, then at least it's not all 15 things you have to figure out, which was it. It's just the last thing he pushed out.[01:03:26] Jason: Exactly. Yeah. It's never fun when you deploy a big delta and something goes wrong and it's a mystery. What introduced the problem? It's obviously never good if you deploy something that turns out to be a problem, but if you deployed just one thing and something goes wrong, at least you can. Roll it back or at the very least have a pretty decent idea of where the problem lies. So you can address it quickly. [01:03:56] Jeremy: for sure. Well I think that's probably a good place to leave it off on, but is there anything else about testing or just software in general that you, you thought we should've brought up?[01:04:09] Jason: Well, maybe if I can leave the listener with one thing um, I want to emphasize the importance of programming and feedback loops. It was a real eye-opener for me when I was interviewing these candidates to notice the distinct difference between programmers, who didn't program and feedback loops and programmers, who do I have a post about it?I'm just, it's just called how to program and feedback loops. I believe if anybody's interested in the details. Cause I have like. It's like seven steps to that feedback loop. First, you write a line of code, then you do this. I don't remember all seven steps off the top of my head, but it's all there in the blog post.Anyway, if I could give just one piece of advice to anybody who's getting into programming, it's a program in feedback loops. [01:05:00] Jeremy: yeah, I think that's been the, the common thread, I suppose, throughout this conversation is that whether it's. Writing the features you want them to be as small as possible. So you get that feedback of it being done. And like you said, taking it off of your plate. Then there's the being able to have the tests there as you write the features so that you get that immediate feedback, that this is not doing what the test says it should be doing.So yeah, it makes it, it makes a lot of sense that basically in everything we do try to get to a point where we get a thumbs up, we get at, this is complete. The faster we can do that, the better we'll we'll all be off. Right.[01:05:46] Jason: exactly. Exactly. [01:05:50] Jeremy: if people want to check out your book, check out your podcast, I think you even have a, a conference coming up, right? Uh, where, w where can they learn about that.[01:06:02] Jason: So the hub for everything is code with jason.com. So that's where I always. Send people, you can find my blog, my podcast, my book there. And yeah, my conference it's called sin city ruby. It's a Ruby conference. This will only be applicable dear listener, if you're listening before March 24th, 2022. But yeah, it's, it's happening in Las Vegas.It's going to be just a small intimate conference and it's a whole different story, but I kind of put on this conference accidentally. I didn't intend to do a conference. I just kind of uh, stumbled into it, but I think it will be a lot of fun. But yeah, that's, that's another thing that I have going on. [01:06:49] Jeremy: What, what was it that I guess. Got you into deciding this is, this is what I want to do. I want to make a conference. [01:06:58] Jason: Well, it started off as I was going to put on a class, but then nobody bought a ticket. And so I had to pivot. And so I'm like, okay, I didn't sell any tickets to this class. Maybe I can sell some tickets to a conference. And luckily for me, it turns out I was right because I was financially obligated to a hotel where I had reserved space for the class.So I couldn't just cancel it. I had to move forward somehow. So that's where the conference came. [01:07:28] Jeremy: interesting. yeah, I'm, I'm always kind of curious. How people decide what they want to attend, I guess, like, you know, you said how you didn't get enough signups for your class, but you get signups for a conference. And you know, the people who are signing up and want to go, I wonder to to them, what is, what is it about the going to a conference that is so much more appealing than, than going to a class?[01:07:54] Jason: Oh, well, I think in order to go to a class, the topic has to be of interest to you. You have to be in like a specific time and place. The price point for that kind of thing is usually much higher than for, for a conference. Whereas with a conference it's affordable to individuals, you don't have to get your boss's permission necessarily, at least not for the money. It's more of like a, you don't have to be a specific kind of person in a specific scenario in order to benefit from it. It's a much more general interest. So that's why I think I've had an easier time selling tickets to that. [01:08:31] Jeremy: Mm, mm. Yeah, it's, it's more of a I wanna get into a room with a bunch of people and just learn a bunch of cool stuff and not necessarily have a specific specific thing you're looking to get out of it, I guess.[01:08:46] Jason: Yeah. There's no specific outcome or anything like that. Honestly, it's mostly just to have a good time. That's the main thing I'm hoping to get out of it. And I think that is the main draw for people they want to, they want to see their friends in the Ruby community form relationships and stuff like that. [01:09:07] Jeremy: Very cool. Jason good luck with the conference and thank you so much for coming on software software sessions.[01:09:13] Jason: Thanks a lot. And uh, thanks for having me. 

What does it look like to follow the thing that keeps you up at night? From choosing to go with your passion to getting comfortable with uncomfortably, Jason Frazell brings practical steps to creating your ideal life schedule. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Attracting the people you're meant to work with What does the noes mean about you and for you?The pace of starting something newGetting comfortable with comfortability Scheduling your ideal dayEpisode References/Links:WebsitePodcastIGFBLinkedINBrand Builders GroupsGuest Bio:Jason is a Growth and Leadership Coach for high-impact people and teams in tech. He is also the host of the podcast Talking to Cool People, a speaker and is a leader at a coach training program.  OPC Flashcards:OPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey, BE IT listener, what's up? I have an awesome guest for you, Jason Frazell. Ah, so fun. Um, we probably should have recorded everything before I hit record. And then after, it might out of context mean nothing to most listeners, but it was super fun. And I'm really excited to have ... his words in your ears because he is someone who was in a regular, real job, real, (like all jobs are real, that's lame) but really, like, you know, the ones with the 401k, and the health insurance and the paid vacations and all the things and he was slaying, you know, he was doing so great. And he changed that. And he's now working for himself. And it's can be scary. And, you know, like many of us who had maybe started something new. And then the pandemic happen, you know, Brad and I, Brad came working for me full time, three months before, (Lesley laughs) for me with me for three months before the pandemic happened. And, you know, it can be really scary when you have made a leap. And then something happens that makes you question whether or not that leap was a good idea or not. And so, what I love is, he made that leap, he's dove straight in, he's really rocking it. And he's an expert in a lot of things. And he's got a really cool podcast, and I was on it. So y'all gotta go, listen, we'll have that link in the show notes below. But um, what I hope you hear from this podcast is that, you know, having people around you that support you, inspire you is important. Especially when you're wondering if you should do the thing and also that like, whatever it is that you're doing working for someone, working for yourself. There's there's a lot of pressures and a lot of scary stuff. But, you know, if it's the thing that you have on your heart to do, you got to do it, you got to find a way to do it. So here is Jason Frazell.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, everyone. Hello, welcome back to Be It Till You See It. I am so excited. I have a conversation for you. I have this amazing guests name is Jason Frazell. I hope I didn't screw that up because ... (Jason: You got that Lesley) asked (Lesley laughs) (Jason: You're good) this it's so funny is, um, we we randomly connected inside of a group that we're both in. And then because the world is so small, and I was like, "Who knows who's ever interviewed a Pilates person?" You're like, "Oh, do you happen to know this guy, Benjamin?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah." (Lesley laughs) Benjamin, I go way back, like years back. So it's just (Jason: Yeah) funny that we have mutual friends in (Jason: We do) common. And we didn't even know each other until the interwebs brought us together. So Jason, can you tell everyone, who's listening, who you are and what you're excited about right now?Jason Frazell 3:13  Yeah, Lesley. I am, so like you said I'm Jason Frazell. Congratulations on getting my last name correct in the first try. (Lesley: Yeah) So yea it puts you in the top like third of all people. There you go. (Lesley: Well, we like to be unique) I am ... Yeah, so I always like to start with. So I'm a dad. I've got two kids, married, from Minnesota live in New York now, moved out 15 years ago. So, I'm a, I call myself East Coaster with a Midwestern attitude sometimes. (Lesley laughs) So that's like ... (Lesley: Sometimes) sometimesLesley Logan 3:41  ... 15 years. I mean, yeah, that's a sometimes (Jason: Yeah) at that point.Jason Frazell 3:44  I can, I can also cut people New York style. (Jason Yeah) So what I do for work, which is what I think you're asking is I'm a growth and leadership coach. And I specifically focus on people and teams and tech. So, I work with founders, co founders, individual contributors, directors all the way up, both in startups and in big tech. So, I have customers that work at places like Facebook and Google, and I also coach with a lot of startups. In addition to that I'm a fellow podcaster. (Lesley: Yeah) And I won't spoil the surprise, we won't ... spills surprise, Lesley is gonna be a guest on my show soon, (Lesley: Yeah) very soon. I have a show called "Talking to Cool People." It's a fun podcast similar to this where we'll talk about some cool stuff. And then I'm also a personal brand strategist at a company called Brand Builders Group, which I know you're familiar with. (Lesley: Yeah. I love ...) They know a little bit about me.Lesley Logan 4:29  I love Brand Builders. They've been so good to me. And also, we've had many Brand Builders on the show. So it's really ... (Jason: Nice.) Yeah, it's really great. Jason, I want to talk about being a leadership coach, though, because I think it's really interesting, because I actually, I think so few people realize how much of a leader they are on this on this planet, right? Like, (Jason: Yeah) like every single one of us has it's opportunity to lead people and we ... (Jason: Everyone) We think it's like, "Oh, maybe, maybe I maybe only teach five people" or maybe only maybe, maybe you don't actually run a company, but we actually all have an opportunity to be a leader to somebody. So, how do you, how do you, first how do you become a leadership coach? And then second, what are you seeing happening as far as people? What's getting in the way of people seeing that in themselves?Jason Frazell 5:14  Yeah. I'm going to answer your the first part of your question with two answers. How do you become a leadership coach? You don't have to do anything. You call yourself a leadership coach. (Lesley laughs) It's not like it's so it's not like being a Pilates. I mean, I guess you could call yourself a Pilates instructor ...Lesley Logan 5:31  Yeah, we're supposed to go to the training. (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 5:33  Right? But so you can call yourself that. But then people go, "Wait a second, how are you trained?" So anybody can call someone as a leadership coach, life coach and executive coach. So that's what makes the coaching industry a little bit different is there's no regulation. (Lesley: Right) So you see people call themselves, else, there's probably my guess is there's probably Pilates coaches who don't have training would be my guess. Or (Lesley: Yeah) if they have, they don't have the level of training that you do. That's, so to answer the first part of your question, how I became a leadership coach is I actually, almost four years ago, was in the middle of my my corporate career, and I just like something wasn't working for me. And I wasn't really sure what it was. I ended up hiring somebody worked with her for eight months. Through that work, I decided that I was going to go through the same coach training program that she went through, ended up doing a year long coach training program, put in hundreds of hours, from there have coached over a thousand hours of people and I'm now a leader at that coach training program. So that, so how I call myself a leadership coach, is how you call yourself a Pilates coaches through training, and time in the field and the good, bad and the ugly that all that comes with.Lesley Logan 6:36  That is insane. That is (Jason: Yeah) that's a lot. So but I, but I also love that (Jason: A lot) because I think sometimes you, what it sounds like is you set out to work in corporate and have this job. And then you're like, "I have a problem. I'm gonna hire someone." And then you're like, "Wow, this is really cool. I want to help other people." (Jason: Yeah) I actually think that's how most people end up where they're gonna be and (Jason: Totally) and they put this pressure on themselves that they're supposed to know what they want to be when they grow up. But they might not have had the experience to know what that is yet.Jason Frazell 7:04  No. I'm, I'm so with you. So, if you talk a lot of coaches that I know that do more personal coaching, most of them hired a coach, and they're like, "Oh, this work is really fulfilling. Oh, this is something I want to do." So, I agree with you on all that. And yeah, I agree. Like, I think that's like for those and I came from corporate I worked almost 20 years in corporate for me as like, "Hey, something's missing. I've got this problem." I'm not sure what the problem is, which is interesting way to buy something when you're like, "I don't know what the problem is." But I'm (Lesley: Right) gonna spend money on it anyway, and then quickly discovered what it was I just didn't like, what I was bored. I mean, that's what it came down that I was bored. And I had the entrepreneurial fire. And I didn't, but I was too comfortable. So, I didn't know it. And so (Lesley: Yeah. There ...) yada, yada, yada, as they say on Seinfeld here we are on the podcast. (Jason and Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 7:10  But it's all I've had, I have friends who, who lost their jobs. And they, I was like, "I'm so sorry." They're like, "Honestly, the best thing ever happened," because it was like, it was too comfortable. But also couldn't leave it because like, you know, it's hard, it's hard to leave the paycheck and the guaranteed and all the benefits and all the things. So you're you've been thousands of hours later. So my other question is, like, what keeps people from thinking that they're a (Jason: Yeah) leader?Jason Frazell 8:17  Yeah. So for some people, and I think this really relates to ... I don't want to stereotype. But you see this, this is obviously gonna make sense for people that are a little bit newer into their career, newer into their, into their personal journey, is the idea that you have to have somebody reporting to you. We have to have some sort of actual authority over somebody. I don't agree with that. I think to your point, we always have to, we always have the opportunity to be leaders. So for example, you and I are going to have people listen to us on this podcast, and they're going to go, they may like me, they may hate me, but they're probably going to listen to what I have to say. It's same for you, they probably, probably love you, which is why they're tuning in. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 8:56  A laugh is helpful, actually. (Jason and Lesley laughs) I think some of them listen for that. (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 9:00  Yea I bet they like the laugh. They like Lesley's laugh and amongst other things. But um, so I think the disconnect for people is understanding that we actually know a lot more than we think we do, especially when we're starting out, especially in fields where it's not purely about expertise. Like things like sales, things like marketing, where a lot of that is very artful. And you bring it and you bring a different perspective, like, obviously, there are certain fields that are quite into the note like ... you know, like engineering, manufacturing, where you really need to know the specifics. I think like fitness, (Lesley: Yeah) you really need to know a lot of the science behind that to do a good job with it. But (Lesley: Yeah) understanding that what you bring is a unique flavor. And that as you build that people look to you as a leader, whether or not you're managing them. I think that's (Lesley: Yeah) that's one of the first disconnects. The second disconnect that I see is people that have a job they don't like and they don't acknowledge that all the other roles they play in their life has them be a leader, whether they're a parent, their date, you know their spouse or they're in a romantic relationship, that friends are involved in their church, they're involved in charities. All those places we get to show up as leaders and a lot of people like, "Well, I'm not a leader because I don't manage anybody at work." (Lesley: Right) And I would say, do you, you know, do you, "Do you help your kids with their homework?" That's leadership, I mean, it's parenting, but it's also leadership and how do you show up there. So. I'm with you, everybody is a leader in their own way. And we all (Lesley: Yeah) played it in many, many different roles.Lesley Logan 10:18  Yeah, yeah. I love that. I am ... So, I want to go into you recently got into your coaching business. So you were in corporate for 20 years? How recently, (Jason: Yeah) I mean, like, a thousands of hours (Jason: Three years) of coaching? Three years? OkayJason Frazell 10:31  Yeah. Three years. Yeah. (Lesley: Yeah. So ...) It feels like a long time.Lesley Logan 10:35  Especially with a COVID year ... (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 10:37  I know, the COVID year, yeah, exactly.Lesley Logan 10:38  Especially with COVID year. I'm always shocked when I realized .... we moved to Vegas, Las Vegas, from Los Angeles during the pandemic. And it surprises me how long I've lived here because it (Jason: Yeah) doesn't it feels long. It also doesn't feel that long. So it (Jason: Yeah) it's like a it's weird time work. But you guys, you've been doing this for a little over three years, thousands of hours. Similar to when we start this podcast, there was no episodes, no listeners. When you start a coaching business, it's not like, it's not like you open the doors and people are like, lined up already. So, how do you, how did you start that? Like, how did you go, how did like, because there's a there is a Be It Till You See It in there. Like, you're telling your people, (Jason: Yeah) "I'm a coach." And yet you have no clients.Jason Frazell 11:18  Yeah. I'm laughing about this for two reasons. One, because there's a lot of people on LinkedIn, who will sell you that will try and sell you on, "oh, we'll fill up your practice with these people." Um, no.Lesley Logan 11:30  Oh my God, they do that on LinkedIn, you know what I (Jason: Yeah) have it there's like, on because I get the DMs on Instagram daily, daily (Jason: Say thing probably) right, like, (Jason: Yeah) "Here for $7, you can get 7000 followers. And also like, what, what's your affiliate because I can bring you tons of customers." It's like, "Hmm." (Jason: And you're like, "Yeah.") I don't think you can. (Lesley laughs) So this happen (Jason: Yeah) on LinkedIn. Okay.Jason Frazell 11:51  Yeah. So, um, the way that I started my business is, well, first of all, I just, I just started it, right. So I just said, "Okay," and I was in my coach training program. So I had a grand total of maybe 30 hours of training, and decided that I was going to go out and find some clients. (Lesley: Yeah) So I went out and did that. And I did that through word of mouth and my network and said, "Hey, this is what I'm up to. Anybody interested in doing some pro bono stuff?" (Lesley: Yeah) Becuase when you start out, it's it's nice to you know, it's nice to get out, get some referrals, some testimonials, and let people know that, "Hey, like, you know, I'm new to this." And I wasn't, I wasn't trying to pretend somebody I wasn't, (Lesley: Right) "I'm new to this. And I'd love to provide the service to you". And through that work, just generated some generated some paying clients, which then generates more paying clients and on and on and on, and on, and on, we go. So for me, it was just a matter, it was kind of like a be it till you, you know, like, "Hey, like, this is what I'm going to do. And this is how we train new coaches in the coach training program. I'm a leader at." Just go out and talk to people and start doing it. There's all these and this kind of goes back to the LinkedIn or the Instagram thing, generate followers or LinkedIn, or all these tricks of getting people just like, just go talk to people share authentically on your Facebook page or on your LinkedIn or in your IG like, "This is what I'm up to. Do you know anybody?" (Lesley: Yeah) And eventually, somebody will you'll start to attract the people that you're meant to work with. And the rest is history.Lesley Logan 13:12  Yeah. I mean, there's very few businesses that cannot be built on referrals. And (Jason: Right) yes, I think like social media makes us all think that it's a numbers, if it's about how many followers we have. I know people who have 1000 followers who make hundreds of 1000s of dollars. (Lesley: Yeah) and I know people who have hundreds of 1000s of followers who make no money. So it's not the followers. It's like how like, it is that word of mouth. Did you help someone? Did you change their life in some way? And then asking them, "Who else do you know? (Jason: Yeah ...) Who can use what I just gave you?" And it's really, (Jason: Copy chapter ...) it's really crazy. So, I think it's really cool. I love that you started out with like, "Hey, I'm working on this thing. Can I work with you?" And like, "Can you (Jason: Yeah) tell me ...?" I think that it's you know, that is also scary because so many people are afraid of rejection. (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 13:58  Oh my God. Yeah. Well, and I and I came from, I spent almost 20 years in sales and corporate sales and technology and worked at some big companies worked at some startups. So I was used to getting "Noes" Right? But it's different getting a "no" when you're like, "I don't want your piece of software," And you're like, "No, I don't want to work with you on an individual level." That's a very different, "no." And it took me a while to get used it and I still don't, I still don't, I don't ever like being told "no" but that that's a whole different conversation. But it's I'd still don't like it but it's hard because you're it's just you like I was (Lesley: Right) it was just, it's literally, it was just me and my business and the service that I provided with nothing else behind and people were like, "I don't think so." So, I'm like, "Oh, well what's wrong with me?" Like that's ... what's wrong with me (Lesley: Right) what I need to do differently? And, I don't know ... Lesley Logan 14:44  So, what ... (Jason: Yeah) what do you do differently? Like because it's true like my my husband he does talks on like "200 noes." Like that's how you build your business like go for the noes because the (Jason: Yeah) more noes you get like the better you get at talking about what you do and all this stuff and and he ... You know, he's born salesperson. So, it's really me ... (Jason: I like him already.) I know "noes" do not like bother him that much. He's just like ... I mean, like, it's kind of amazing. So it's been helpful for me (Lesley laughs) as someone who, when people say "no," it's like, "Oh, it's it feels like it's a no to you when it's (Jason: sure) not." So how did you get over that? Or how do you teach people to like not take those noes when it's their personal business? (Jason: Yeah) Your personal coaching? Like, how do you take that? What do you tell yourself?Jason Frazell 15:26  Yeah, so this is an interesting question. I'm thinking about this, how I do it for myself. And then also, when I'm coaching other entrepreneurs who get a lot of noes is getting curious about what you make it mean about you? Like, what is that like, for you, when you're first getting those noes. Like, what do you make it mean about you? Do you make it mean that there's something that you're not talented enough? Does it mean that there's something about who you were? And then also, the idea like what your husband, it's just a numbers game. And when you get out of the scarcity mindset, and into the abundance mindset, which these are overused, jargony stuff. But it's true, like there's more people that I'm the perfect coach for them can ever hire me, it's like, there's (Lesley: Right) more people that could ... They just don't know who I am. And that's it. So (Lesley: Yeah) there's a way to and there's a, there's a coach out there, she has something that I like to quote her name's "Stacy Boehm." And she's a coach for, she's this coach for selling life coaching. And her her target demographic is females. She has this one thing that she says it really stuck with me. She said, "What would you do if you knew your ideal clients were looking for you?" Like, what would you do today? What would you do tomorrow? Like, what's the thing that you would do? Because like, what we all do is we're like, "Oh, there's nobody out there. Nobody's interested." But like, if I knew that you wanted to hire me, when you just didn't know me, what would I actually do and what I post on social media. Would I pay for ads? Would I do search engine, would I go to a networking event, and like that's the thing that I would say like, "Hey, what would you do?" Because the truth is, there are people out there for everybody. And I really do believe that.Lesley Logan 16:56  That's so good. I love that so much.Jason Frazell 16:58  It's Stacy's, I wish, I wish I could take it. It's Stacy. But ...Lesley Logan 17:01  I know. Well, Stacy, thanks so much. (Jason laughs) We're all gonna live by that because, like, even inside like, I it's almost like, I wish I had heard that, even though I believe that they're like, you're on the right ... person for the right people. And that it's okay, if you don't like what I'm offering, because there are more people just even hearing that would change how I would like change them in the thoughts I have posting on when there's a sale or when there's a launch? (Jason: No) Because it's, it's like, what if people were looking there are actually Googling and you need to come up? And like, how would you do that? And you'd be less scared, "Oh, it's like, that's way better than leap and the net will appear." (Jason and Lesley laughs) Right? That's so good. (Jason: Yeah) Um, yeah, I do think like, fear rejection is real. And it keeps people (Jason: Sure) from doing. So, okay, you mentioned earlier and maybe this is too personal, you know, let me know, but like, you have two kids ...Jason Frazell 17:52  Nothing's too personal. I'm here.Lesley Logan 17:53  Yeah. You have two kids, you're married, you know, like, and you wanted to switch careers? How hard like, what did you, how, what, what, why did you go? How could you do that? How did you do that? And also, like, was it scary because I do think, you know, when for people might not know, in 2019, Brad sold his companies and came full fully on board with my businesses, which is so exciting. And then three months later, we had COVID happen. And I was like, "Oh, well, okay, this is, this ship is only sailing with, with this is all I got. So here we go." (Jason: Yeah) Like, what was it like for you with kids and spouse? Like, was it easy (Jason: Yeah) to make that transition or was it hard?Jason Frazell 18:29  Well, I'm very fortunate that my wife is amazing. And so it could have been a lot harder if it wasn't for the fact that I told her what I saw and what I believed was possible. And she was on board with me. My wife has more of a vision and goals and person than I am. I'm more of a pragmatic, practical as a good. This is one of the Midwestern comes and I'm like ... "What's practical about all this?" She's more like, "Hey, well, what, what do you think would make you happy? What do you believe? What does your intuition tell you?" And, you know, I have been fortunate I had a good career before that. So it wasn't like, I was living paycheck to paycheck at that point. So it was, you know, it was, it was a conscious family decision. (Lesley: Yeah) And but yeah, I'm fortunate to have an amazing partner that supported me in that because I was, you know, if the tables were turned, I don't know that I would have had the same response be like, "Well, what do you mean? Go back, get another job. Making what you're making. We got to keep this money flowing in." So yeah, (Lesley: Yeah) but the truth is, it's all it's all about a powerful conversation, my wife and just getting aligned on what this is, what I'm going to do and why. And it also helped that when I decided to do this, I had already started the business. So it was a side hustle that went full time quite quickly. But I had a, I had a few proof points. It's not like one day I'm like, "I'm out of here. I don't know what I'm going to do." (Lesley: Right) I was already, I was already turning out a couple clients and it certainly wasn't enough to pay the bills. But I was I was on the path already. (Lesley: Yeah.) Which (Lesley: That's ...) that's what, that's one thing I would say to to everyone listening is, "You don't have to just quit full boat and go full into it immediately." A lot of people that I coached that like are that working like places like Facebook, and they want to do a side hustle, they do them both. (Lesley: Yeah) Then at some point, your business becomes big enough where you do need to go out and do it yourself. I do believe at some point, you have to work only in your business. But there's no shame in like doing the side hustle stuff, you know, like, there seems to be this culture. Like, "if you're really committed, you'll just do it." I'm like, that's not realistic for a lot of people.Lesley Logan 20:25  It's, thank you for saying that. I think it's 100% true. I mean, I, I, I think it's easy for people looking outside, they might see that somebody went from Facebook to this company, and they're like, "Whoa, how" but really, most people are, if they are transitioning from one thing to the other, there was a time where they're doing two things. And like, that's (Jason: Yeah) how, that's how all of my businesses were. You know, I was, I was running studios, as I was renting space far enough away, that it was allowed, but also like building my own business. And (Jason: Yeah) then, and then I figured out how many clients I had to have to make the switch. And then we made that leap. And that was sitting down and like being really conscious about like, "How many pe... people is that so I could make that switch?" And it's difficult, and we didn't have kids. So it was a lot easier, I could overwork a little bit for a short period of time to make that happen. And then when I want to transition again, you know, we did the the bridge again, and the only (Jason: Yeah) time it was like, rip... let the boat you know, burn the boats or whatever was because of COVID. (Lesley and Jason laughs) It was like "Oh, (Jason: Yeah) well, we're we're gonna have to close that studio. And this and this, because it's not reopening anytime soon." (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 21:38  No. State mandatedLesley Logan 21:40  Yeah. (Jason: closing) Yeah, I know. I think it's I mean, and if you're listening to this I lived in California, so the gyms would didn't open for 13 months. So it was (Jason: Right) you know I was just like, "This is not ... I could see the writing on the wall. Like they're, they're not reopening me any anytime soon." So, so I think thank you for sharing that because I do believe a lot of people think I have to have it all together. And I have to go all in. And it's like, I just believe that there's like ... there's a trial period as a trying something on, there's like, figuring it out and like and then knowing that you have a little bit and then you have to get uncomfortable. So can we talk about that, like, there (Jason: Yeah) Is it still uncomfortable in your business? Or now your three and a half years in like it feels a little less uncomfortable? Like, what was that like going you know, that getting comfortable with uncomfortability?Jason Frazell 22:23  Yeah, so it's, it's still uncomfortable because I'm still, my business is morphing is the word I'll use, or it's becoming more aligned to what I actually want to do all day, every day. It's kind of like, I don't know, it's kind of even like my podcast. I'm at almost 100 episodes. It's a little different than it was 100 episodes ago. That (Lesley: Yeah) so that is, to me, that's a fun, uncomfortable. I actually I'm actually one of those people. I kind of like being uncomfortable. (Lesley: Yeah) So it's fun to because for me uncomfortable means that I'm a little bit in the unknown, which means there's something super creative and innovative, which is like where I do my best work. (Lesley: Yeah) But yeah, after spending 20 years with a paycheck every two weeks, and a bunch of operational people and benefits and stock options and 401k's and all that. And then to suddenly be like, "Oh, wait, if I want to make any money and be successful, it's on me today." Like, (Lesley: Yeah) that's still uncomfortable. I'm still getting use to that I'm, we call that like, I call that a corporate context. I'm still breaking it up. (Lesley: Yeah) But there's days where I'm like, "Man, I just wish I'd have somebody that would just tell me what to do today. Or like, send me 20 clients." And I'm like, "No." So the uncomfortable part is. And the exciting part is what's next, who's my next client? So for me, like, I don't know who my next client might be. (Lesley: Right) I might get somebody to hit my website today, which might be the client that hires me at my highest rate, which refers me 10 clients, which creates the business of my dreams, or that might not happen for a year and that that's the uncomfortable thing. Because my automatic place that I like to go is I like to know. How's it gonna go because I was in sales. So your husband probably like sales is all about predictability. (Lesley: Right) Oh, like, "Hey, quarter after quarter, how am I gonna build this pipeline," and I just don't, it's just not a thing in this in my business. So that part is uncomfortable for me.Lesley Logan 24:12  Well, and also I'm reading Joe Dispenza's book. (Who knows what it's called, actually, I'm sorry, I'm obviously not reading it. It's on Audible. So, I just hit play.) Anyways, it's about getting out of your own way. Someone will tell (Jason: Yeah) me on Instagram and go, "Shame on you for not knowing he's brilliant." He is brilliant. It's amazing. But he talks about like how we all want cause and effect. We're all living ... in this like Newtonian thing, which is like, (Jason: Oh, yeah) this happens and this happens. But when we start to actually understand that we are causing an effect that is like, it's like you're unstoppable. It's this crazy thing. And and it's true because I, because I was in corporate, I was in fitness corporate, which is nice. (Jason: Yeah) Like they put budgets out. (Jason: Yeah, like ...) I meet them, you know, and like I lead a team and either way I had vacations and 401k's and amazing health insurance that I don't have any more, I have something (Lesley laughs) that they (Jason: Yeah) that they let self employed person by. But there that is all, that that is there is something like that, that and I, on a bad day I'll go, "Gosh, you know, what am I doing?" And then I'll go and then I can look back at like the promotions I didn't take and I can look to the friends that are still there and I can go, "You know that I'm not that person." And (Jason: Yeah) that's I think, to to to go back would be denying that I'm like, I am someone who has to keep creating and I have to as much as I hated I I clearly love being in the unknown because I spent so much time there. (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 25:40  Yeah. Well just ... Yeah, I heard just a quick anecdote on this. I don't know if you saw what happened to Peloton last week, but they (Lesley: Tell me) well, Peloton had was one of the best performing stocks in during you know, kind of the height of COVID. They released their quarterly earnings last week, they were not good. Their stock dropped 35%. And they went on a hiring freeze, I saw as of today. (Lesley: Wow) So, so like, and I say this to people that are in corporate that, that it's it might be more secure, but it's not that much more secure, you're still at the whim and mercy of of you know, one bad quarter and they dropped 35% and all those, I'm assuming all those employees hold stock options. There goes 30, you know, 35% of your wealth and stock options down.Lesley Logan 26:23  Well 100 ... look that's it, you're either like you and I we work for ourselves. So like, I am at the mercy of making sure my messaging is good enough that people buy it. But those corporations are at the mercy of those investors and those stockholders (Jason: Yeah) and people. And so like, wherever, however you slice it, there are people you answer to and there is difficulties and there's scary times but like I think, you know, if you were to look back, I don't know I don't answer for you. But I have I when I look back, I I would be struggling right now to work for someone doing something and not doing what I'm doing right now. Because what I'm doing right now is like literally what's inside of me what like comes to my mind, what keeps me up at night. What me... and I can take action on that. I'm actually I feel like I'm fulfilling my purpose. And I think (Jason: Yeah) that that's what it is. So I don't know, I think it's hard to be uncomfortable. But I don't know that (Jason: Yeah) it was much more comfortable on the other side. It was just like there's a paycheck. (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 27:20  Yeah, yeah. Right. But I mean, you know, as a salesperson, I'm it sounds like all the things you're doing. There's a lot of uncomfortable meetings you go to ,where you tell your boss, "Oh, we're breaking into this million dollar deal." And then the customers like, "Yeah, we're not doing it." Then you have to have a ... that's not comfortable either.Lesley Logan 27:35  Right, right. I think we're just ... Well, I think the grass looks greener on the other side. And we think that it's all there. But the reality is, is that like, you know, putting one foot step in front of the other without knowing what it's going to be is like the way you get anywhere, you know. So ...Jason Frazell 27:49  I'm with you and I, you and I are on the same page for sure, Lesley.Lesley Logan 27:52  Alright, Jason, how do people get to know you? Get to work with you? Find out how to get leadership coaching with you because it sounds like you're doing some really cool stuff with all (Jason: Yeah) these companies.Jason Frazell 28:00  Yeah, thanks so much, Lesley. Yeah, best place to start is just my website. It's just my name. So, it's Jason Frazell f r a z e l l.com. And from there, you can also connect with me on Instagram, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. And I do want to put in a plug that I mentioned earlier, I'm a podcaster as well. And if anybody here is listening who is interested in coming on my podcast next year, it's "Called Talking to Cool People". And check it out. It was actually, it's a, we'll talk about on my podcast how the name came about it was pretty funny. And so you can connect with me there and listen to some of my episodes, I talk to all sorts of interesting people from let's, very diverse set of individuals that I've talked to over the last couple years. So yeah, connect me on all the social. I'm the only person on social with my name, I believe (Lesley: That's amazing) it's a pretty unique name. It's a pretty unique name. Yeah. And, and then my website and I look forward to hearing from you and connecting with you. And so you know, I can support everybody out there.Lesley Logan 28:52  Yeah, well, our listeners will be very excited. Y'all, he does talk to cool people. He interviewed Benjamin Degenhardt. (Jason: I did) And our listeners are many of them are big fans of his. So, y'all can go. Jason Frazell 29:03  I know Benjamin. So yes, that's awesome. (Lesley: That's so crazy) It such a small world.Lesley Logan 29:08  It's so small. He's, he's amazing. I, we used to pre COVID run into each other all over the world, because of pilates. (Jason: I can imagine) So like (Jason: I can imagine) would be at the same event and it's like, I would never see him in our home cities, but we'd see each other and other people's cities which are just so fun. Okay, so I asked everyone bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps to prioritizing yourself. How do you be it till you see it? What do you what tips do you got for us?Jason Frazell 29:33  Yeah, be it till you see it. So first things first, this is very tactical, for those who are ... And I think this applies to sales people working for others. This applies to entrepreneurs, put in your calendar, block out your calendar, like you had customers there, or you had clients there. So for new salespeople, I coach a lot of salespeople. When you start out there's like, "Oh my gosh, there's a lot of things to learn to do," like block out your calendar like you had that appointments already, and then use that time to prospect, use that time to get, as your husband, Brad said, use that time to get some noes and hopefully some yeses. (Lesley: Yeah) If for an entrepreneur like you're, I know like let's say you're a new personal trainer, and you've got three clients and you've got, you know, 20 hours of your week, not ready, book it up, and then figure out what you're going to use that time for to either improve yourself, go find clients. So, I think there's some energy that gets put out when you do that. There's some things that like, that's like a, I'm not gonna say manifesting, but you're actually telling, actually telling the universe or spirit or God or whatever you believe, "Hey, there's some stuff that I'm going to be doing here." And it also trains you to get used to what that schedule is going to be like. So (Lesley: Yeah) for example, some coaches like, "I want 30 clients a week." And I'm like, "Do you?" (Jason laughs)Lesley Logan 30:42  I know, I get that a lot when we coach Pilates instructors and they're like, "I think I want to teach 30 hours a week." And I'm like, "You do? You wanna (Jason: You're like ...) teach 30 hours a week?"Jason Frazell 30:49  ... You're like, "Have you ever taught 30 hours a week?" And they're like, "Nope ... I could tell."Lesley Logan 30:53  Yeah. (Jason: So ...) Let me just tell you, you don't, that's a lot of human being.Jason Frazell 30:56  It's a lot of human beings that it's like, you won't get to eat probably. (Lesley: Yeah) Um, so that's first thing. The second thing is, and I think it was President Obama who once said, this is I think he said this in one of his books. And if I misquote it (Lesley: It's alright). Okay, (Lesley: Their already coming for me and Joe) I think he said. (Lesley laughs) Yeah, it's it, you know, like, yeah, exactly. He said, like, "Act as if." I think it was him. It's one of the things because people were I think, if I'm not mistaken, somebody asked him when he was a junior senator in Illinois, "How did you ascend to become the president?" is like, almost unheard of in that way. He's like, "I just had to go into rooms and act as if. Act as if I was the President. Act as if, as if I was a senior member of the Senate. Act as if I belonged in the room." So when I say that, I don't mean it from like, an imposters way or like, trying to, you know, alpha it or become the dominant person. It's like, just go into like, act like you own it. (Lesley: Yeah) Because most the secret that I love to say and I don't know if you feel this way, but I really do as most people don't know what they're talking about or doing most of the time anyway. (Lesley: No) Like, they have their they have they have training, you know, like all these all these experts and gurus out there and I'm like, "These people don't know anything more than you and I do, they just have good shiny sales and marketing." And yeah, if you just like ...Lesley Logan 32:14  100% correct on that. I rem...Jason Frazell 32:16  I mean in the fitness industry is full of people like this, right?Lesley Logan 32:18  Oh, 100... I'll be in the rooms. And I'll be like, "Oh, my God ..." And I hear like, "I have, I've been trained by people vigorously." (Jason: Right) Like I haven't like, oh, it's just that they acted as if, they put themselves out there, they took the risk. So you know, I mean, like, I think we tend to put people on pedestals who are actually our equals. And if you met them and actually talk to them, they would see you as an equal as well. Like ...(Jason: They would) were (Jason: Yeah) putting them up there when they're like, "Hey, I'm just right over here with you."Jason Frazell 32:18  Yeah, I'm just right over here with you. And I just but the thing I think that, that a lot of those people do. And you know, some of I do think there's some snake oil stuff out there. (Lesley: Oh yeah) There's a lot of good people who are have this kind of, you know, like same place. What they are willing to do though is get uncomfortable. And share themselves in this kind of like, they're willing to show up. (Lesley: Yeah) Even when, even when they're not ready. And I think that's one of the things that holds back a lot of people, especially in entrepreneurial space. Especially personal brand space is being willing to show up and speak your truth and let the world know who you are without it having to be perfect. Because to me, there's no such thing as perfect.Lesley Logan 33:20  Yep. ... I mean, that's a mantra around here, "Perfect is boring. Do it messy." ...Jason Frazell 33:27  Yeah, that's a that's a mantra at Brand Builders, too, is like we're not gonna do it perfectly, but like we're gonna do it. We're gonna get out there. We're gonna do it.Lesley Logan 33:33  Yeah, well, cuz I'm one of my favorite people on this planet, Jill Coleman says, "Perfect is the like the thing keeping you from being consistent." (Jason: Totally) You know, and so and honestly, most of the people doing things that you're like, "Gosh, someday when I'm ready." They weren't ready. They weren't perfect. They just were consistently showing up. And so yeah. Well, Jason, thank you for being here. Thanks for being on the Be It Till You See It podcast. I can't wait to be on Talking To Cool People. Oooh (Jason: Yeah) (Lesley laughs)Jason Frazell 34:03  Yes. Lesley, thanks, thank you so much for having me. It's a delight to be here with everybody.Lesley Logan 34:07  Oh, you're amazing. This is a great conversation. And everyone please screenshot this tag @jasonfrazell, tag @be_it_pod. Let us know your takeaways. Let us know how you're going to act as if and how you're going to use these BE IT tips. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is the production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 34:55  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 35:02  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell 35:08  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 35:17  Special thanks to our designer Jirah Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 35:28  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, we cover: 00:00:00 - Introduction  00:04:30 - Early Dark Days in Chaos Engineering and Reliability 00:08:27 - Anecdotes from the “Long Dark Time” 00:16:00 - The Big Changes Over the Years 00:20:50 - Mandi's Work at PagerDuty 00:27:40 - Mandi's Tips for Better DevOps 00:34:15 - Outro Links:PagerDuty: https://www.pagerduty.com TranscriptJason: — hilarious or stupid?Mandi: [laugh]. I heard that; I listened to the J. Paul Reed episode and I was like, “Oh, there's, like, a little, like, cold intro.” And I'm like, “Oh, okay.”Jason: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose, a podcast about reliability and learning from failure. In this episode, we take a trip down memory lane with Mandi Walls to discuss how much technology, reliability practices, and chaos engineering has evolved over her extensive career in technology.Jason: Everybody, welcome to the show, Julie Gunderson, who recently joined Gremlin on the developer advocacy team. How's it going, Julie?Julie: Great, Jason. Really excited to be here.Jason: So, Mandi is actually a guest of yours. I mean, we both have been friends with Mandi for quite a while but you had the wonderful opportunity of working with Mandi.Julie: I did, and I was really excited to have her on our podcast now as we ran a podcast together at PagerDuty when we worked there. Mandi has such a wealth of knowledge that I thought we should have her share it with the world.Mandi: Oh, no. Okay.Julie: [laugh].Jason: “Oh, no?” Well, in that case, Mandi, why don't you—Mandi: [crosstalk 00:01:28]. I don't know.Jason: Well, in that case with that, “Oh no,” let's have Mandi introduce herself. [laugh].Mandi: Yeah hi. So, thanks for having me. I am Mandi Walls. I am currently a DevOps advocate at PagerDuty, Julie's last place of employment before she left us to join Jason at Gremlin.Julie: And Mandi, we worked on quite a few things over a PagerDuty. We actually worked on things together, joint projects between Gremlin, when it was just Jason and us where we would run joint workshops to talk about chaos engineering and actually how you can practice your incident response. And I'm sure we'll get to that a little bit later in the episode, but will you kick us off with your background so everybody knows why we're so excited to talk to you today?Mandi: Oh, goodness. Well, so I feel like I've been around forever. [laugh]. Prior to joining PagerDuty. I spent eight-and-a-half years at Chef Software, doing all kinds of things there, so if I ever trained you on Chef, I hope it was good.Prior to joining Chef, I was assistant administrator for AOL.com and a bunch of other platform and sites at AOL for a long time. So, things like Moviefone, and the AOL Sports Channel, and dotcom, and all kinds of things. Most of them ran on one big platform because the monolith was a thing. So yeah, my background is largely in operations, and just systems administration on that side.Jason: I'm laughing in the background because you mentioned Moviefone, and whenever I think of Moviefone, I think of the Seinfeld episode where Kramer decides to make a Moviefone competitor, and it's literally just his own phone number, and people call up and he pretends to be that, like, robotic voice and has people, like, hit numbers for which movie they want to see and hear the times that it's playing. Gives a new meaning to the term on-call.Mandi: Indeed. Yes, absolutely.Julie: And I'm laughing just because I recently watched Hackers and, you know, they needed that AOL.com disc.Mandi: That's one of my favorite movies. Like, it's so ridiculous, but also has so many gems of just complete nonsense in it. Absolutely love Hackers. “Hack the planet.”Julie: “Hack the planet.” So, with hacking the planet, Mandi, and your time working at AOL with the monolith, let's talk a little bit because you're in the incident business right now over at PagerDuty, but let's talk about the before times, the before we practiced Chaos Engineering and before we really started thinking about reliability. What was it like?Mandi: Yeah, so I'll call this the Dark Ages, right? So before the Enlightenment. And, like, for folks listening at home, [laugh] the timeline here is probably—so between two-thousand-and-fi—four, five, and 2011. So, right before the beginning of cloud, right before the beginning of, like, Infrastructure as Code, and DevOps and all those things that's kind of started at, like, the end of my tenure at AOL. So, before that, right—so in that time period, right, like, the web was, it wasn't like it was just getting started, but, like, the Web 2.0 moniker was just kind of getting a grip, where you were going from the sort of generic sites like Yahoo and Yellow Pages and those kinds of things and AOL.com, which was kind of a collection of different community bits and news and things like that, into more personalized experiences, right?So, we had a lot of hook up with the accounts on the AOL side, and you could personalize all of your stuff, and read your email and do all those things, but the sophistication of the systems that we were running was such that like, I mean, good luck, right? It was migration from commercial Unixes into Linux during that era, right? So, looking at when I first joined AOL, there were a bunch of Solaris boxes, and some SGIs, and some other weird stuff in the data center. You're like, good luck on all that. And we migrated most of those platforms onto Linux at that time; 64 bit. Hurray.At least I caught that. And there was an increase in the use of open-source software for big commercial ventures, right, and so less of a reliance on commercial software and caught solutions for things, although we did have some very interesting commercial web servers that—God help them, they were there, but were not a joy, exactly, to work on because the goals were different, right? That time period was a huge acceleration. It was like a Cambrian explosion of software pieces, and tools, and improvements, and metrics, and monitoring, and all that stuff, as well as improvements on the platform side. Because you're talking about that time period is also being the migration from bare metal and, like, ordering machines by the rack, which really only a handful of players need to do that now, and that was what everybody was doing then.And in through the earliest bits of virtualization and really thinking about only deploying the structures that you needed to meet the needs of your application, rather than saying, “Oh, well, I can only order gear, I can only do my capacity planning once a year when we do the budget, so like, I got to order as much as they'll let me order and then it's going to sit in the data center spinning until I need it because I have no ability to have any kind of elastic capacity.” So, it was a completely, [laugh] completely different paradigm from what things are now. We have so much more flexibility, and the ability to, you know, expand and contract when we need to, and to shape our infrastructures to meet the needs of the application in such a more sophisticated and almost graceful way that we really didn't have then. So, it was like, “Okay, so I'm running these big websites; I've got thousands of machines.” Like, not containers, not services.Like, there's tens of thousands of services, but there's a thousand machines in one location, and we've got other things spread out. There's like, six different pods of things in different places and all this other crazy business going on. At the same time, we were also running our own CDN, and like, I totally recommend you never, ever do that for any reason. Like, just—yeah. It was a whole experience and I still sometimes have, like, anxiety dreams about, like, the configuration for some of our software that we ran at that point. And all of that stuff is—it was a long… dark time.Julie: So, now speaking of anxiety dreams, during that long, dark time that you mentioned, there had to have been some major incidents, something that stands out that that you just never want to relive. And, Mandi, I would like to ask you to relive that for us today.Mandi: [laugh]. Okay, well, okay, so there's two that I always tell people about because they were so horrific in the moment, and they're still just, like, horrible to think about. But, like, the first one was Thanksgiving morning, sometime early in the morning, like, maybe 2 a.m. something like that, I was on call.I was at my mom's, so at the time, my mom had terrible internet access. And again, this time period don't have a lot of—there was no LTE or any kind of mobile data, right? So, I'm, like, on my mom's, like, terrible modem. And something happened to the database behind news.aol.com—which was kind of a big deal at the time—and unfortunately, we were in the process of, like, migrating off of one kind of database onto another kind of database.News was on the target side but, like, the actual platform that we were planning to move to for everything else, but the [laugh] database on-call, the poor guy was only trained up in the old platform, so he had no idea what was going on. And yeah, we were on that call—myself, my backup, the database guy, the NOC analyst, and a handful of other people that we could get hold of—because we could not get into touch with the team lead for the new database platform to actually fix things. And that was hours. Like, I missed Thanksgiving dinner. So, my family eats Thanksgiving at midday rather than in the evening. So, that was a good ten hour call. So, that was horrifying.The other one wasn't quite as bad as that, but like, the interesting thing about the platform we were running at the time was it was AOL server, don't even look it up. Like, it was just crazytown. And it was—some of the interesting things about it was you could actually get into the server platform and dig around in what the threads were doing. Each of the servers had, like, a control port on it and I could log into the control port and see what all the requests were doing on each thread that was live. And we had done a big push of a new release of dotcom onto that platform, and everything fell over.And of course, we've got, like, sites in half a dozen different places. We've got, you know, distributed DNS that's, like, trying to throw traffic between different locations as they fall over. So, I'm watching, like, all of these graphs oscillate as, like, traffic pours out of the [Secaucus 00:11:10] or whatever we were doing, and into Mountain View or something and, like, then all the machines in the Secaucus recover. So, then they start pinging and traffic goes back, and, like, they just fall over, over and over again. So, what happened there was we didn't have enough threads configured in the server for the new time duration for the requests, so we had to, like, just boosted up all of the threads we could handle and then restart all of the applications. But that meant pushing out new config to all the thousands of servers that were in the pool at the time and then restarting all of them. So, that was exciting. That was the outage that I learned that the CTO knew how to call my desk. So, highly don't recommend that. But yeah, it was an experience. So.Julie: So, that's really interesting because there's been so many investments now in reliability. And when we talk about the Before Times when we had to cap our text messages because they cost us ten cents a piece, or when we were using those AOL discs, the thought was there; we wanted to make that user experience better. And you brought up a couple of things, you know, you were moving to those more personalized experiences, you were migrating those platforms, and you actually talked about your metrics and monitoring. And I'd like to dig in a little on that and see, how did that help you during those incidents? And after those incidents, what did you do to ensure that these types of incidents didn't occur again in the future?Mandi: Yeah, so one of the interesting things about, you know, especially that time period was that the commercially available solutions, even some of the open-source solutions were pretty immature at that time. So, AOL had an internally built solution that was fascinating. And it's unfortunate that they were never able to open-source it because it would have been something interesting to sort of look at. Scale of it was just absolutely immense. But the things that we could look at the time to sort of give us, you know, an indication of something, like, an AOL.com, it's kind of a general purpose website; a lot of different people are going to go there for different reasons.It's the easiest place for them to find their email, it's the easiest place for them to go to the news, and they just kind of use it as their homepage, so as soon as traffic starts dropping off, you can start to see that, you know, maybe there's something going on and you can pull up sort of secondary indicators for things like CPU utilization, or memory exhaustion, or things like that. Some of the other interesting things that would come up there is, like, for folks who are sort of intimately tied to these platforms for long periods of time, to get to know them as, like, their own living environment, something like—so all of AOL's channels at the time were on a single platform.—like, hail to the monolith; they all live there—because it was all linked into one publishing site, so it made sense at the time, but like, oh, my goodness, like, scaling for the combination of entertainment plus news plus sports plus all the stuff that's there, there's 75 channels at one time, so, like, the scaling of that is… ridiculous.But you could get a view for, like, what people were actually doing, and other things that were going on in the world. So like, one summer, there were a bunch of floods in the Midwest and you could just see the traffic bottom out because, like, people couldn't get to the internet. So, like, looking at that region, there's, like, a 40% drop in the traffic or whatever for a few days as people were not able to be online. Things like big snowstorms where all the kids had to stay home and, like, you get a big jump in the traffic and you get to see all these things and, like, you get to get a feel for more of a holistic attachment or holistic relationship with a platform that you're running. It was like it—they are very much a living creature of their own sort of thing.Like, I always think of them as, like, a Kraken or whatever. Like, something that's a little bit menacing, you don't really think see all of it, and there's a lot of things going on in the background, but you can get a feel for the personality and the shape of the behaviors, and knowing that, okay, well, now we have a lot of really good metrics to say, “All right, that one 500 error, it's kind of sporadic, we know that it's there, it's not a huge deal.” Like, we did not have the sophistication of tooling to really be able to say that quantitatively, like, and actually know that but, like, you get a feel for it. It's kind of weird. Like, it's almost like you're just kind of plugged into it yourself.It's like the scene in The Matrix where the operator guy is like, “I don't even see the text anymore.” Right? Like, he's looking directly into the matrix. And you can, kind of like—you spend a lot of time with [laugh] those applications, you get to know how they operate, and what they feel like, and what they're doing. And I don't recommend it to anyone, but it was absolutely fascinating at the time.Julie: Well, it sounds like it. I mean, anytime you can relate anything to The Matrix, it is going to be quite an experience. With that said, though, and the fact that we don't operate in these monolithic environments anymore, how have you seen that change?Mandi: Oh, it's so much easier to deal with. Like I said, like, your monolithic application, especially if there are lots of different and diverse functionalities in it, like, it's impossible to deal with scaling them. And figuring out, like, okay, well, this part of the application is memory-bound, and here's how we have to scale for that; and this part of the application is CPU-bound; and this part of the application is I/O bound. And, like, peeling all of those pieces apart so that you can optimize for all of the things that the application is doing in different ways when you need to make everything so much smoother and so much more efficient, across, like, your entire ecosystem over time, right?Plus, looking at trying to navigate the—like an update, right? Like, oh, you want to do an update to your next version of your operating system on a monolith? Good luck. You want to update the next version of your runtime? Plug and pray, right? Like, you just got to hope that everybody is on board.So, once you start to deconstruct that monolith into pieces that you can manage independently, then you've got a lot more responsibility on the application teams, that they can see more directly what their impacts are, get a better handle on things like updates, and software components, and all the things that they need independent of every other component that might have lived with them in the monolith. Noisy neighbors, right? Like, if you have a noisy neighbor in your apartment building, it makes everybody miserable. Let's say if you have, like, one lagging team in your monolith, like, nobody gets the update until they get beaten into submission.Julie: That is something that you and I used to talk about a lot, too, and I'm sure that you still do—I know I do—was just the service ownership piece. Now, you know who owns this. Now, you know who's responsible for the reliability.Mandi: Absolutely.Julie: You know, I'm thinking back again to these before times, when you're talking about all of the bare metal. Back then, I'm sure you probably didn't pull a Jesse Robbins where you went in and just started unplugging cords to see what happened, but was there a way that AOL practiced Chaos Engineering with maybe not calling it that?Mandi: It's kind of interesting. Like, watching the evolution of Chaos Engineering from the early days when Netflix started talking about it and, like, the way that it has emerged as being a more deliberate practice, like, I cannot say that we ever did any of that. And some of the early internet culture, right, is really built off of telecom, right? It was modem-based; people dialed into your POP, and like, that was the reliability they were expecting was very similar to what they expect out of a telephone, right? Like, the reason we have, like, five nines as a thing is because you want to pick up dial tone, and—pick up your phone and get dial tone on your  line 99.999% of the time.Like, it has nothing to do with the internet. It's like 1970s circuits with networking. For part of that reason, like, a lot of the way things were built at that time—and I can't speak for Yahoo, although I suspect they had a very similar setup—that we had a huge integration environment. It's completely insane to think now that you would build an integration environment that was very similar in scope and scale to your production environment; simply does not happen. But for a lot of the services that we had at that time, we absolutely had an integration environment that was extraordinarily similar.You simply don't do that anymore. Like, it's just not part of—it's not cost effective. And it was only cost effective at that time because there wasn't anything else going on. Like, you had, like, the top ten sites on the internet, and AOL was, like, number three at the time. So like, that was just kind of the way things are done.So, that was kind of interesting and, like, figuring out that you needed to do some kind of proactive planning for what would happen just wasn't really part of the culture at the time. Like, we did have a NOC and we had some amazing engineers on the NOC that would help us out and do some of the things that we automate now: putting a call together, or when paging other folks into an incident, or helping us with that kind of response. I don't ever remember drilling on it, right, like we do. Like, practicing that, pulling a game day, having, like, an actual plan for your reliability along those lines.Julie: Well, and now I think that yeah, the different times are that the competitive landscape is real now—Mandi: Yeah, absolutely.Julie: And it was hard to switch from AOL to something else. It was hard to switch from Facebook to MySpace—or MySpace to Facebook, I should say.Mandi: Yeah.Julie: I know that really ages me quite a bit.Mandi: [laugh].Julie: But when we look at that and when we look at why reliability is so important now, I think it's because we've drilled it into our users; the users have this expectation and they aren't aware of what's happening on the back end. They just kn—Mandi: Have no idea. Yeah.Julie: —just know that they can't deposit money in their bank, for example, or play that title at Netflix. And you and I have talked about this when you're on Netflix, and you see that, “We can't play this title right now. Retry.” And you retry and it pops back up, we know what's going on in the background.Mandi: I always assume it's me, or, like, something on my internet because, like, Netflix, they [don't ever 00:21:48] go down. But, you know, yeah, sometimes it's [crosstalk 00:21:50]—Julie: I just always assume it's J. Paul doing some chaos engineering experiments over there. But let's flash forward a little bit. I know we could spend a lot of time talking about your time at Chef, however, you've been over at PagerDuty for a while now, and you are in the incident response game. You're in that lowering that Mean Time to Identification and Resolution. And that brings that reliability piece back together. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?Mandi: One of the things that is interesting to me is, like, watching some of these slower-moving industries as they start to really get on board with cloud, the stairstep of sophistication of the things that they can do in cloud that they didn't have the resources to do when they were using their on-premises data center. And from an operation standpoint, like, being able to say, “All right, well, I'm going from, you know, maybe not bare metal, but I've got, like, some kind of virtualization, maybe some kind of containerization, but like, I also own the spinning disks, or whatever is going on there—and the network and all those things—and I'm putting that into a much more flexible environment that has modern networking, and you know, all these other elastic capabilities, and my scaling and all these things are already built in and already there for me.” And your ability to then widen the scope of your reliability planning across, “Here's what my failure domains used to look like. Here's what I used to have to plan for with thinking about my switching networks, or my firewalls, or whatever else was going on and, like, moving that into the cloud and thinking about all right, well, here's now, this entire buffet of services that I have available that I can now think about when I'm architecting my applications for the cloud.” And that, just, expanded reliability available to you is, I think, absolutely amazing.Julie: A hundred percent. And then I think just being able to understand how to respond to incidents; making sure that your alerting is working, for example, that's something that we did in that joint workshop, right? We would teach people how to validate their alerting and monitoring, both with PagerDuty and Gremlin through the practice of incident response and of chaos engineering. And I know that one of the practices at PagerDuty is Failure Fridays, and having those regular game days that are scheduled are so important to ensuring the reliability of the product. I mean, PagerDuty has no maintenance windows, correct?Mandi: No that—I don't think so, right?Julie: Yeah. I don't think there's any planned maintenance windows, and how do we make sure for organizations that rely on PagerDuty—Mandi: Mm-hm.Julie: —that they are one hundred percent reliable?Mandi: Right. So, you know, we've got different kinds of backup plans and different kinds of rerouting for things when there's some hiccup in the platform. And for things like that, we have out of band communications with our teams and things like that. And planning for that, having that game day to just be able to say—well, it gives you context. Being able to say, “All right, well, here's this back-end that's kind of wobbly. Like, this is the thing we're going to target with our experiments today.”And maybe it's part of the account application, or maybe it's part of authorization, or whatever it is; the team that worked on that, you know, they have that sort of niche view, it's a little microcosm, here's a little thing that they've got and it's their little widget. And what that looks like then to the customer, and that viewpoint, it's going to come in from somewhere else. So, you're running a Failure Friday; you're running a game day, or whatever it is, but including your customer service folks, and your front-end engineers, and everyone else so that, you know, “Well, hey, you know, here's what this looks like; here's the customers' report for it.” And giving you that telemetry that is based on customer experience and your actual—what the business looks like when something goes wrong deep in the back end, right, those deep sea, like, angler fish in the back, and figuring out what all that looks like is an incredible opportunity. Like, just being able to know that what's going to happen there, what the interface is going to look like, what things don't load, when things take a long time, what your timeouts look like, did you really even think about that, but they're cascading because it's actually two layers back, or whatever you're working on, like that kind of insight, like, is so valuable for your application engineers as they're improving all the pieces of architecture, whether it's the most front-end user-facing things, or in the deep back-end that everybody relies on.Julie: Well, absolutely. And I love that idea of bringing in the different folks like the customer service teams, the product managers. I think that's important on a couple of levels because not only are you bringing them into this experience so they're understanding the organization and how folks operate as a whole, but you're building that culture, that failure is acceptable and that we learn from our failures and we make our systems more resilient, which is the entire goal.Mandi: The goal.Julie: And you're sharing the learning. When we operate in silos—which even now as much as we talk about how terrible it is to be in siloed teams and how we want to remove silos, it happens. Silos just happen. And when we can break down those barriers, any way that we can to bring the whole organization in, I think it just makes for a stronger organization, a stronger culture, and then ultimately a stronger product where our customers are living.Mandi: Yeah.Julie: Now, I really do want to ask you a couple of things for some fun here. But if you were to give one tip, what is your number one tip for better DevOps?Mandi: Your DevOps is always going to be—like, I'm totally on board with John Wallace's [CAMS 00:27:57] to, like, move to CALMS sort of model, right? So, you've got your culture, your automation, your learning, your metrics, and your sharing. For better DevOps, I think one of the things that's super important—and, you know, you and I have hashed this out in different things that we've done—we hear about it in other places, is definitely having empathy for the other folks in your organization, for the work that they're doing, and the time constraints that they're under, and the pressures that they're feeling. Part of that then sort of rolls back up to the S part of that particular model, the sharing. Like, knowing what's going on, not—when we first started out years ago doing sort of DevOps consulting through Chef, like, one of the things we would occasionally run into is, like, you'd ask people where their dashboards were, like, how are they finding out, you know, what's going on, and, like, the dashboards were all hidden and, like, nobody had access to them; they were password protected, or they were divided up by teams, like, all this bonkers nonsense.And I'm like, “You need to give everybody a full view, so that they've all got a 360 view when they're making decisions.” Like you mentioned your product managers as part of, like, being part of your practice; that's absolutely what you want. They have to see as much data as your applications engineers need to see. Having that level of sharing for the data, for the work processes, for the backlog, you know, the user inputs, what the support team is seeing, like, you're getting all of this input, all this information, from everywhere in your ecosystem and you cannot be selfish with it; you cannot hide it from other people.Maybe it doesn't look as nice as you want it to, maybe you're getting some negative feedback from your users, but pass that around, and you ask for advice; you ask for other inputs. How are we going to solve this problem? And not hide it and feel ashamed or embarrassed. We're learning. All this stuff is brand new, right?Like, yeah, I feel old talking about AOL stuff, but, like, at the same time, like, it wasn't that long ago, and we've learned an amazing amount of things in that time period, and just being able to share and have empathy for the folks on your team, and for your users, and the other folks in your ecosystem is super important.Julie: I agree with that. And I love that you hammer down on the empathy piece because again, when we're working in ones and zeros all day long, sometimes we forget about that. And you even mentioned at the beginning how at AOL, you had such intimate knowledge of these applications, they were so deep to you, sometimes with that I wonder if we forget a little bit about the customer experience because it's something that's so close to us; it's a feature maybe that we just believe in wholeheartedly, but then we don't see our customers using it, or the experience for them is a little bit rockier. And having empathy for what the customer may go through as well because sometimes we just like to think, “Well, we know how it works. You should be able to”—Mandi: Yes.Julie: Yes. And, “They're definitely not going to find very unique and interesting ways to break my thing.” [laugh].Mandi: [laugh]. No, never.Julie: Never.Mandi: Never.Julie: And then you touched on sharing and I think that's one thing we haven't touched on yet, but I do want to touch on a little bit. Because with incident—with incident response, with chaos engineering, with the learning and the sharing, you know, an important piece of that is the postmortem.Mandi: Absolutely.Julie: And do you want to talk a little bit about the PagerDuty view, your view on the postmortems?Mandi: As an application piece, like, as a feature, our postmortem stuff is under review. But as a practice, as a thing that you do, like, a postmortem is an—it should be an active word; like, it's a verb, right? You hol—and if you want to call it a post-incident review, or whatever, or post-incident retrospective, if you're more comfortable with those words, like that's great, and that's—as long as you don't put a hyphen in postmortem, I don't care. So, like—Julie: I agree with you. No hyphen—Mandi: [laugh].Julie: —please. [laugh].Mandi: Please, no hyphen. Whatever you want to call that, like, it's an active thing. And you and I have talked a number of times about blamelessness and, like, making sure that what you do with that opportunity, this is—it's a gift, it's a learning opportunity after something happened. And honestly, you probably need to be running them, good or bad, for large things, but if you have a failure that impacted your users and you have this opportunity to sit down and say, all right, here's where things didn't go as we wanted them to, here's what happened, here's where the weaknesses are in our socio-technical systems, whether it was a breakdown in communication, or breakdown in documentation, or, like, we we found a bug or, you know, [unintelligible 00:32:53] defect of some kind, like, whatever it is, taking that opportunity to get that view from as many people as possible is super important.And they're hard, right? And, like, we—John Allspaw, on our podcast, right, last year talked a bit about this. And, like, there's a tendency to sort of write the postmortem and put it on a shelf like it's, like, in a museum or whatever. They are hopefully, like, they're learning documents that are things that maybe you have your new engineers sort of review to say, “Here's a thing that happened to us. What do you think about this?” Like, maybe having, like, a postmortem book club or something internally so that the teams that weren't maybe directly involved have a chance to really think about what they can learn from another application's learning, right, what opportunities are there for whatever has transpired? So, one of the things that I will say about that is like they aren't meant to be write-only, right? [laugh]. They're—Julie: Yeah.Mandi: They're meant to be an actual living experience and a practice that you learn from.Julie: Absolutely. And then once you've implemented those fixes, if you've determined the ROI is great enough, validate it.Mandi: Yes.Julie: Validate and validate and validate. And folks, you heard it here first on Break Things on Purpose, but the postmortem book club by Mandi Walls.Mandi: Yes. I think we should totally do it.Julie: I think that's a great idea. Well, Mandi, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Real quick before we go, did you want to talk a little bit about PagerDuty and what they do?Mandi: Yes, so Page—everyone knows PagerDuty; you have seen PagerDuty. If you haven't seen PagerDuty recently, it's worth another look. It's not just paging anymore. And we're working on a lot of things to help people deal with unplanned work, sort of all the time, right, or thinking about automation. We have some new features that integrate more with our friends at Rundeck—PagerDuty acquired Rundeck last year—we're bringing out some new integrations there for Rundeck actions and some things that are going to be super interesting for people.I think by the time this comes out, they'll have been in the wild for a few weeks, so you can check those out. As well as, like, getting better insight into your production platforms, like, with a service graph and other insights there. So, if you haven't looked at PagerDuty in a while or you think about it as being just a place to be annoyed with alerts and pages, definitely worth revisiting to see if some of the other features are useful to you.Julie: Well, thank you. And thanks, Mandi, and looking forward to talking to you again in the future. And I hope you have a wonderful day.Mandi: Thank you, Julie. Thank you very much for having me.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

What you'll learn in this episode: How to avoid SEO charlatans and ensure your digital agency is getting results Why a beautifully designed website doesn't necessarily equal a high-ranking website Why an SEO strategy means nothing if a firm doesn't have a proper intake system What insights you'll find in Jason's new book, “Law Firm SEO” About Jason Hennessey Jason Hennessey is an internationally recognized SEO expert, author, speaker, entrepreneur, and business executive. Since 2001, Jason has been reverse-engineering the Google algorithm as a self-taught student and practitioner of SEO and search marketing. His expertise led him to grow and sell multiple businesses, starting with a dot-com in the wedding industry. After presenting his SEO knowledge to a group of lawyers in 2009, Jason founded and later sold Everspark Interactive, cementing his reputation as a thought leader and authority in SEO for the legal industry. As CEO of Hennessey Digital since 2015, Jason grew a small consultancy to a $10MM+ business that made the Inc. 5000 list for the second year in a row in 2020, and he also runs SEO industry news site iloveseo.com. A keynote speaker and frequent podcast and webinar guest, Jason is a columnist for the Washington Post and a regular contributor to Entrepreneur, Inc., and the National Law Review. His team is currently preparing to open Hennessey Studios, a state-of-the-art audio and video production facility located in the Television Academy building in the heart of Hollywood where Jason will host a podcast interviewing entrepreneurs and business leaders. He also recently released his first book, Law Firm SEO, described as the “holy grail of digital marketing for lawyers.” Jason is a United States Air Force veteran and holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Marketing from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. A New York native, Jason launched his SEO career in Las Vegas and grew his reputation in the legal industry in Atlanta. He now lives in the Los Angeles area with his wife, Bridget, and their three children. Additional resources: Website: jasonhennessey.com  LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhennessey/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jasonhennessey/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jason.hennessey.399 Twitter: ​​https://twitter.com/jasonhennessey  Published Book: Law Firm SEO: Exposing the Google Algorithm to Help You Get More Cases Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast Transcript: When Jason Hennessey discovered SEO in the early 2000s, it was a largely unknown novelty. Today, SEO is the cornerstone of digital marketing, and Jason leads a successful agency, Hennessey Digital, that specializes in SEO and digital marketing for law firms. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how he landed in the legal industry, why he's so passionate about empowering lawyers to understand SEO, and why he wrote his new book, “Law Firm SEO.” Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Jason Hennessey,. Hennessey Digital works with law firms to maximize their SEO, their search engine optimization, and rankings. Today, with ranks being impacted by all aspects of the online world, Jason's firm works with law firms on their websites, blogs and social media in order to maximize their rankings on Google. We'll learn more about Hennessey Digital's work today. Jason, welcome to the podcast. Jason: Thank you, Sharon. I appreciate you having me. Sharon: We're so glad to have you. Thank you much. To me, SEO is its own art and science. You can't do a lot more besides that. You can't become an expert in other things. Tell us about your background there. Jason: It's not like I was a kid and I said, “I want to be an SEO person when I grow up.” There was no such thing. I got into SEO back in 2001. I had just finished college. I was going to UNLV in Las Vegas after I had gotten out the Air Force. I was contemplating taking the LSAT to get into law school, and then my journey took more of an entrepreneurial route. I started a couple of businesses. As a result of starting the businesses, I had to learn how to market these businesses, and search engine optimization was one of the first things I studied. Back then in 2001, when I got into SEO, there wasn't a lot of information on it. There were a couple of books that were reliable and a couple of blogs, so I started to read up on it and I got pretty good at it.  Then in about 2008, I was living in Atlanta, Georgia—we relocated our family there—and I got asked to speak to a group of lawyers. There were 50 DUI law firms that didn't compete with each other, and they met for a mastermind in Atlanta. I got up there, didn't know anything about legal marketing, but I gave a presentation about how I was able to rank on Google for the keyword “wedding themes,” because one of my businesses was an e-commerce website. As a result of me being transparent, a couple of relationships were made; a couple of business cards were handed out, and that was the genesis of how I got into legal marketing. Sharon: Were they banging your door down saying they wanted you to do that for them? What happened there? Jason: After I showed them exactly how they could rank their websites on Google for the terms that were important to them with practical examples, I think they realized they didn't want to do that themselves; they wanted somebody to do it for them, or they already had people that were doing this for them that weren't as transparent or weren't getting results. That's how the conversation went: “Here's my card. Do you do this?” I'm like, “Well, not really, but give me your card. Maybe we can talk.” I thought, “Maybe there's something here. Maybe there are law firms that really need help with their marketing. They should be getting paid to do what they're good at, and that's being good lawyers, being in the courtroom, depositions.” We got one or two clients as a result of that. We turned those clients into case studies, and then we used those studies to grow our business.  Sharon: Was there something that intrigued you about doing it in the legal world? Jason: It's probably one of the most competitive spaces from a digital marketing perspective. I was up for the challenge because here I was, ranking nationally for another competitive space, wedding favors and weddings, and this was a little bit different. I didn't know the vernacular of law, so I started to go the conferences. I would sit in the conferences and listen, and I would listen to the phone calls they were getting as clients were working with them to truly understand their world and that vernacular. Since 2008, I've been immersed in that industry, so I'm one of the thought leaders in legal marketing. I just published a book called “Law Firm SEO,” which I'm proud about.  Sharon: Congratulations! We'll have a link to the book and you can tell me more about it. Jason: Thank you. Sharon: In our experience, when we started out we were working with defense firms, and they were still wondering whether they needed a website, let alone SEO.  How do you find the reception now? Does everybody say, “Oh, yeah, we do that. We spend millions of dollars on it”? Jason: Yeah, we do a lot of work with personal injury law firms. There's a lot of demand in those markets, and those are some of the most competitive keywords from a pay-per-click perspective. There are lawyers that will pay $400 or $500 a click just to send somebody to their website. Over the years, we've also started to work with criminal defense lawyers, bankruptcy lawyers, even business attorneys as well. In fact, I actually found my business attorney—I live in Santa Clarita—by Googling. Even me, as a consumer on the other end, I use Google myself to try to find things, whether it's a restaurant or whatever. Particularly in this case, I found my business attorney that way.  Sharon: Now, everybody finds everything today. The first thing you do is go on Google or one of the search engines. Whether you want it to or not, it puts it right there.  Jason: Yes. Sharon: What's the reception? Today, is it more like, “Oh, tell me about it”? Is it more like, “We have guys who do that, but I'm not sure they're doing a good job”? What do you find? Jason: I think that's it. It's a very nebulous space, and most of the attorneys are not really educated on digital marketing. They should be, and it's a little intimidating. If you were to go to a bookstore and pick up a book on SEO, it's in the computer engineering section. Lawyers are not really—their brains, for the most part, generally aren't wired to be coders. That was one of the main reasons why I ended up writing this book. It was to educate and empower lawyers, whether you're just out of law school or if you run a very successful, hundred-person firm. It educates and empowers you to understand it without the complexity of understanding how to write code. I break it down in a very easy-to-understand format. As a result, lawyers will now be armed with the right information to make good decisions with their business, to know how to keep score when they're paying an SEO company, and overall how to not get taken advantage of. In our world, there are charlatans that, in some cases, will leverage the nebulous and confusing world of digital marketing. That was my biggest thing, to make sure lawyers are never getting taken advantage of in this world, too. Sharon: You're probably in a similar situation to us. Being a marketing and PR firm, we always find that if we're talking to a prospective client, they say, “We've done that. We've worked with people. It didn't work.” You find yourself being two steps behind before you even start. How do you handle that?  Jason: This is one of the ways, to be honest with you. When they say, “Hey, I don't know. I've been burned so many times. It just doesn't work. I'm not sure if I should even do this,” we never really sell anything. When we work with a client, we're never selling; we lead with education, and the education is based on our experiences with the clients we work with today. In some cases, we'll be able to show them why it wasn't working, and we'll be able to educate them in a way so they understand it. If they really want more information, then we'll basically mail them a book. If they're curious about why it's truly not working, we'll say, “Here, read the book. This will give you a much bigger understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.”  Sharon: Do you find today, because search engine rankings are so critical no matter what you do, that practice areas that weren't interested before are starting to come to you? Let's say the corporate practice area might have said, “What do I need it for?” Do you find they're showing more interest? Jason: Oh, yeah, 100%, corporate. We even work with Ben Crump, who's a national civil rights attorney. That wouldn't have been the practice area we would have started to go after as far as marketing ourselves 15 years ago; “Let's go after a civil rights attorney.” But now, it's important. There are different aspects of coming up with a strategy. Sometimes it's just educating. Even then, it's educating with answers, FAQs, and creating video content to be more of the trusted source when a consumer is in the market for an attorney for whatever it is they need the attorney for. So, there's definitely branding, there's direct response, and then sometimes there's educational content that they should be putting out on the web. Sharon: Are you called in by lawyers, by managing partners, by law firm marketers? Who calls you in? Jason: It really depends. We like working with marketing directors because they speak our language, but most of the attorneys we work with, a lot of them don't even spend a lot of time in the courtroom anymore. These are businesspeople that are very aggressive marketers. Sometimes the most successful lawyers are not the best in trial; it's the guys or the ladies that are actually the best marketers. In most cases, we either work with a marketing director or we'll work with the owner of the firm who is the partner that does the marketing, that one that's buying all the billboard ads and on TV and radio. That's typically who we work with. Sharon: Do you find that all works together? My question is, do you ever have to come in and say, “O.K., we've got to tear the website up and start over,” or “Let's take another look at your social media”? What happens? Jason: Yeah, in some cases, we'll take over a campaign and one of the first things we'll do is look at the website. We'll try to audit, like what are the blockers here, what's going to have the highest impact, what changes can we make right away that will have the highest impact? We'll get in and do that, but we also educate. We bring our clients along so they truly understand what we're doing and it's not confusing to them, because if it's not confusing to them, they'll appreciate us a little bit more. From there, once the site is fixed, sometimes we'll go for a redesign if that's needed.  Sometimes the sites are nice as-is and we can take that and fix the technical, SEO side of it. From there, it comes down to a couple of things, like maintaining the integrity of the technical code. We do that on a regular basis. We develop content strategies where we write and publish content on our client's behalf, and then there's the stuff you guys do with PR in bringing the eyeballs to the website. That's so important. We work with PR companies for some of our clients. We also do something called link building, and link building is how you boost the popularity of your website. When somebody links to another website with a blue underlined link, that's like currency on the web, and that's how websites become popular. Once a website becomes popular, that's how it ranks well in Google, and that's how you start to get traffic. Sharon: You talked about charlatans. Are there companies that promise to give you a thousand links by tomorrow or something? Jason: Yeah, avoid those. Sometimes it's better just getting one link by becoming a member of the National Trial Lawyers or becoming a member of the Better Business Bureau. Sometimes that one link is better than a thousand of those spammy links that you referenced there. Sharon: Yeah, there's a lot you find if you're clicking around. What would you rank as the biggest barrier to success in this area for law firms, or what mistakes do you see? I guess those are two questions. What mistakes do you see in law firms? Jason: Making sure that you're following the right playbook and you have an agency that has some success in the area of law, because there is a difference between somebody that has a great deal of experience with e-commerce versus working with law firms. That's important, but believe it or not, the other side is that a lot of lawyers are spending a lot of money to bring in more phone calls and more leads, but sometimes that's where they fall down; they're not really prepared on their end with the proper intake. This was actually something we ran a study on, because one of our clients was saying, “Hey, I don't know why, but the SEO just doesn't seem like it's working.” We're looking at all the traffic and phone calls, and it's a campaign that's doing very well and it was really surprising to us.  What we did was plant a lead into his intake. We filled out a form submission on his website, and it was a real, qualified lead. Thinking that we would get a phone call within at least an hour, nothing happened. Nothing happened the rest of the day, and it turned out that we got a call back two weeks later. We were like, “Well, that's the reason why.” If you're getting leads and you're getting back to people two weeks later, there's something obviously broken on your end with your intake. That inspired us to go out and do a whole study. We reached out to 700 law firms and planted the lead around the same time on a Monday morning. Believe it or not, 42 percent of the law firms that we reached out to didn't even respond back to us. Sharon: Wow! I can't say I'm surprised. So many times, we may not be handling the actual SEO, but we will work with the law firm and the people answering the phones to put a process together and that doesn't happen. Jason: That's critical, because it's one thing to spend a lot of money to generate the traffic and the leads, but to fall down when they actually call, that's a constraint. A lot of law firms during their growth, they have to fix that. Sharon: It's more than a constraint; it's a real waste of money if you're doing your job and they're not getting the phone calls. Jason: That's exactly right. Sharon: Then people are saying, “Well, if you're not going to respond, I'm going to call somewhere else.” Do you find resistance to search engine optimization? When you say that's what you do, do you find firms saying, “Oh, we do fine”? Jason: We're not in the business of cold calling people, because (a) good luck getting through the gatekeeper, and (b), you're selling what seems like snake oil in our industry because it has such a bad reputation. I think a lot of law firms don't really understand what is involved with SEO, so in some cases, they have a designer that designs them a new website and codes it and they say, “Do you do SEO?” and they say, “Yeah” and then they build a new website. A couple of weeks later, they have a nice website, and they think they have SEO now because they can check that box, like, “Oh yeah, my developer did the SEO on it.”  That couldn't be further from the truth. SEO is something else. It's like your health. Seriously, I look at it like that. If you want to remain healthy, you don't just eat an apple and say, “O.K., I'm good now.” It requires constant jogging and eating healthy and dieting, and that's how SEO is. SEO is a core to your business. You have to continue to maintain it; you have to continue to make it better. Publishing content on a regular basis is important, making sure there are no issues within the code on a regular basis is important. It's definitely an ongoing strategy. It's just a matter of how aggressive you want to be. Sharon: What haven't we talked about that you want to let us know? Jason: The book that I wrote again is called “Law Firm SEO.” You can find it on Amazon. Sharon: “Law Firm SEO.”  Why did you decide to write it? Jason: I decided to write this, again, because it's been 20 years of me learning this, and I genuinely wanted to give back.  Like I said, I wanted someone in law school that is interested in the business side of law to get a general sense of what this takes; what this world that I'm going to be competing in looks like. So, for $25 on Amazon, you can tap into 20 years of experience that I've had to go through. Sharon: At one point, lawyers could do this all themselves. You didn't have social media and everything else that you need to think about today. Jason: Yeah, and that's point of the book. When you're starting out, you either have time or you have money to solve a problem. For example, my sprinklers broke this weekend. I don't know a lot about sprinklers. I can invest my time into going on YouTube and watching videos about how to fix sprinklers, or I could just call somebody and they can come and fix it. I'd prefer to use my money, in this case, to have somebody that's more professional come and fix it, but if I didn't have the money, guess what? I'm going to have to watch YouTube and figure this out myself. I think that's the same with law firms, whether you're just getting started or if you've been in practice for a long time. It really comes down to time versus money. Do you really want to learn this and, if that's the case, spend some time reading about it?  The book was written in a way where those that read it could certainly spend time starting to learn and teach themselves this or, alternatively, you could be armed with information now that you've read the book, and then you could make a better decision in hiring somebody to help you. When people say, “Hey, is SEO still valuable? Should I be investing in this?” I don't think SEO is going away anytime soon. The question should be “Should I do SEO versus pay-per-click? Where would I invest my money?” I don't think it's an either/or question. I think if you're able to generate business from paid marketing, continue to feed that marketing channel with a budget and continue to generate business as a result of that. If you're able to generate business with organic, with SEO, again, same thing. Continue to test it, tweak it, and then keep ramping up where things are working. I think digital marketing for law firms is very valuable, and I genuinely hope those that are listening pick up the book, “Law Firm SEO”—it's available on Amazon—and I genuinely hope that you get some real value from it. Sharon: Jason, thank you so much for being with us today. This has been very interesting and informative. Jason: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Sharon.

We have a packed show today, and we're going to talk about everything endurance sports. We're going to be specifically talking about a new magazine for swim bike run, called Run•Tri•Bike. I'm Hilary Topper. And this is Hilary Topper on air. Today, I have the great pleasure of speaking with Jason Bahamundi president and CEO and Angela Nath, senior vice-president of Run•Tri•Bike, a multimedia platform designed to help beginner athletes navigate the world of endurance sports, which includes running, cycling and swimming. Welcome guys to the show. First you, Jason, can you tell us a little bit about Run•Tri•Bike Magazine, why you decided to launch the magazine and who is the intended audience is? Jason - Sure. Hilary, thank you very much for having me on. So Run•Tri•Bike Magazine was started by Angela and me because, during conversations amongst friends and acquaintances and people involved in the sports world, we found that there was a need for tips and tricks and stories and inspiration and motivation for beginners. And we're just coming off or still involved in the pandemic. Right. And people are working from home and deciding to buy running shoes for the first time or buying a bike for the first time and not really knowing where to turn and where to go for those ideas and tips. And so we started the business with that as our focus, it's focused on beginners. And then I would say a second-tier level, underneath that beginner athlete demographic would be looking to help women looking to help people of color, looking to help physically challenged, disabled and LGBTQ plus athletes have a platform to talk about their stories and to inspire others, representation matters to us. And so if you see somebody that looks like you or is from your part of the world, you might get inspired and motivated to get out there and participate in the sports that we love as well. And so that's the premise for starting this business when you say multimedia platform, you're a hundred percent correct. We print a magazine on a bimonthly basis and we run our website and social media platforms which get updated daily. And then just so listeners understand the content that your consuming online is different than the content that is in the magazine and we want to bring stories in all forms to different people because people process information differently and that's kind of why we're doing it that way. Hilary - So, Jason, um, just give me a brief overview of your background. Jason - Sure. I've been involved in endurance sports for about 14 years. I got into it similar to the way other people do, which is, this sounds like fun, let's try it out. Um, and in those 14 years I've been able to, been fortunate enough to cross the finish line of eight iron man races, there’s an eight hundred-mile race coming up in about three weeks as I was notified yesterday that I will be taking on the Cocodona 250, which is a 250-mile foot race from black Canyon city in Arizona to Flagstaff, Arizona. Thank you very much for that enthusiasm. I'm kind of really nervous right now about it. I need all the hype I can get from others. Hilary - That's really cool. Really, really cool. So how did you and Angela meet? Jason - I have been, um, I guess I would say a supporter of women's sports for a very long time. And I was a Patreon member of I race like a girl. And one day at the start of run tri bike, social media I saw that I race like a girl platform liked three of my own personal stories on Instagram. So I quickly flipped over being an entrepreneur and said, you know what, we're going to reach out to Angela directly, tell our story and see what happens. My goal at the time was to get IRAs, like a girl involved in run tri bike as an advertiser and as a content provider, one conversation led to the next and, before I knew it, Angela was a partner in the business, which is endurance sports investment group, under which RTB operates. And it's been fantastic, the ability to have a partner who obviously is female, and be able to provide you with insight into how women are thinking about these sports and just things of that nature has been great. But yeah, I've been a fan of hers for years, the year she won Iron man Chattanooga, I participated in the race too. So I don't know. Maybe the stars were aligned since way back in 2018. Hilary - That's awesome. All right. Well, before we move on, I just have to say I'm so appreciative of our sponsors and I must take the time out to thank them. Please support our sponsors and tell them that you heard about them on Hilary topper on air special thanks to The Pegalis Law Group, The Profit Express, The Russo Law Group, Pop International Galleries and Gold Benes LLP. So Angela, tell me a little bit about yourself and your professional background as a triathlete. Angela - Yeah, I started competing in triathlon shortly after college, it was something that I just wanted to stay active in. I was a track and field runner for college and just really loved all sports. And so I wanted to stay active. And so I jumped into a local pool triathlon and fell in love with it. And from there forward, I was just all about triathlon, and about a year later, I was actually, I qualified for my professional card in Canada and, it's been a good decade about training and racing and traveling the world. So it's, it's been really, really fun. Hilary - That's so awesome. So tell me, what was your favorite race? Angela - My favorite race is probably St. Croix they do a race there and it's just such a beautiful Island. The whole Island basically jumps in into the race for spectators and, just the vibe there is nice, It’s a very challenging course and I'm someone who loves hot weather. So of course, St. Croix is going to be up on the list. Hilary - I was there too, that there was some, some Hills up there, huh?  So, um, so talk to me a little bit about, so I heard that you got Lyme disease. Can you talk a little bit about how that happened and, what you actually did about that? Angela - Yeah, it's a, it's kind of an ongoing process. So in 2018, I was finally diagnosed with Lyme. It was very difficult to really diagnose itself because I went to a number of doctors, world-renowned doctors at Boston Children's no one could figure it out because the CDC guidelines for Lyme are not necessarily accurate in terms of actually having it. So finally I found a doctor and did some other testing, and we found that I had Lyme and Bartonella, which is the co-infection of bacteria, and how you treat it is pretty, it's been a learning curve because you, I kinda treated it with antibiotics. Got better, got off the antibiotics relapsed. And you do that a couple of times and you continue trying to like, get there. Get the layers of the onion away, basically. So during COVID actually, I did a lot of treatment for it. And so I'm just kind of rebounding from that right now because I mean, any type of medication you take really does fall to the body, so you have to kind of process that as well. So it's something that very difficult to go through quite honestly. It's kind of changed my life a little bit in that sense. But really I've learned so much and the education I have for it I try to help as many people as I can that may have unusual symptoms or just a current diagnosis. Anything that I can do to return the favor of the support I've received from others? Hilary - Well, it seems like that's something that a lot of triathletes get because we go into areas that are sometimes, lots of, lots of grass and trees and, and that type of thing. And, so it's, it's something that I think is pretty unfortunately common among triathletes. So I heard that one of the things that you've been doing is you've been using hydro mag, which is a Moxie life product. Can you tell me about that experience? Angela - Yeah, I've been with MOXiLIFE for a couple of years now. Theresa, the founder and CEO is just a fantastic lady. Love her to death. I met her at a race in California and she was providing samples of her hydro Mag and hydro Mag is basically a magnesium supplement drink. That is really, really easy to digest. And It tastes great. And so magnesium is something that I lose a lot of, especially even with a Lyme or Bartonella diagnosis as well. It's, it's kind of a common known fact that the magnesium you lose is even more so, and as athletes, you'd be surprised how much magnesium we actually need. And so I've been using her product for two years and I swear by it, it's something I drank two or three times a day. I sometimes add it to my sports drink for training, and it's really helped me in the process throughout this whole timeframe and really be able to train consistently and just try to get the best I can out of my body. So I really do love the product. Hilary - A lot of triathletes also, and runners find that they cramp up a lot. Is this something that you would tell your athletes to try, as to, take magnesium or to try to… Angela - Oh, definitely. Yeah. Like, there's, I mean, you obviously want to make sure that your electrolytes in terms of your sodium content is really well done in your sports drink and also your fueling and race nutrition. But another whole process of that is the magnesium. And so sometimes when I have athletes that I coach come to me and say, they're cramping, we kind of do an overhaul of exactly what they're doing in nutrition. So I really like to make sure that they have the sodium content, because I definitely need that throughout training and racing. And then I always add and let them try the magnesium supplement because I really find that it does so much for the body. Like if you were to do a Google search of what magnesium does for the body, I mean, it's something that's used in basically every cell of the body and every process of the body. So we really do go through a lot as athletes as we push ourselves. And so part of that is cramping. And, I've noticed actually I teach a master's group and we had a guy that would continually cramp in his calves. And so I suggested Moxie life. He bought some and, he's been taking it religiously for the last two weeks and we have not had cramps, so I'm actually glad you brought that up. Hilary - Wow. That's awesome. That's awesome. And lastly, could you just, talk a little bit about the new magazine, Run•Tri•Bike, and your hopes and ambitions for it? Angela - Yeah. I started with Jason. He actually reached out to me, kind of in the light of seeing if there was some type of relationship that we could create with run tri bike and right away when he explained his goal with it, the aim of really just providing insights of swim bike, run, triathlon, and bringing stories about athletes from all walks of life and, and that they were all female. I mean, everything I do is really about bringing females into the spotlight of triathlon. And so that's why I have my team. I race like a girl I have my own sites for a lot of educational components. So the run tri bike was just a fantastic opportunity. And so I just asked him, I'm like, well, how can I be more involved? Because this is something that is right up my alley. I'm inspired by people's stories and really trying to share it and make triathlon a little bit less intimidating, all of it just came together. And so we kind of talked a little bit and,  I partnered with him and it's just been fantastic. We're really just starting from grassroots and building it up as we go. And I think it's a niche in the sport because there's not a lot for beginner triathlons and I mean, triathletes, for magazine wise and really getting some education out there and like being able to support with a lot of different types of sponsors that come on board, it's just a platform that I'm really excited to continue to grow. And the stories behind it that we've already had this far are just... Just so fun to read. And the educational component is fantastic. I mean, for anyone that starting triathlon, whether you are a female or male, if you're looking for clubs, if you're looking to kind of be in triathlon where you find it a little bit intimidating and want to learn more, it's a fantastic platform. I mean, I'm biased. I love it. Hilary - Jason, could you tell us a little bit about the first issue of Run•Tri•Bike Magazine and what was your favorite story so far? Jason - Oh, those are great questions. Thank you very much. Um, there's nothing like I like talking about more than the product we put out. So our first issue covers swimming, biking, and running from, tips for beginners, such as how to pick the right shoe for running, gear you might need for swimming and then how to pick the right bike because it's not just rode bikes you've got triathlon bikes, cross bikes, things like that. In there also we have coaches tips. One is from Angela and one is from Maria Simone of no limits, endurance coaching. We've got health tips in there. We've got nutrition tips in there as well. And so to answer the second question, which was my favorite article, that's like picking your favorite child, right? It's very difficult to do, but for me being a quasi foodie, the article written by Stevie Smith about seven posts, nutrition foods for recovery was fascinating to me and phenomenal, to help give you that reminder of what you need to do post-race or post-workout. But then we have a couple of features in there called how it all started.  and it's, again, it goes back to the representation matters in there. So we have athletes telling their stories of how they got started and they don't look like they were models clipped out of another magazine. They're your everyday Jane's participating in our endurance sports. And I just love reading those stories. Hilary - That's awesome. Any sneak peeks of Run•Tri•Bike Magazine that you'd like to share with us? Something that our listeners should keep an eye out for. Jason - Of course. I will tell you that there are two, three actual, um, components of the upcoming issue that we're excited about. Um, one is most endurance athletes don't think about going to the gym and, and doing strength training. We've got some great tips in that. About that coming up. But, um, bigger than that is how it all started feature and our club's spotlight feature are going to be circling around the same person. And her name is Melissa Stockwell. She is a war veteran who is an above-the-knee amputee who participates in triathlons. She has been to the Paralympic games twice and won a bronze medal. And part of her story is that she founded dare to try, which is a triathlon club nationally to help physically challenge disabled athletes. navigate, like we like to use that phrase, swim, bike, run triathlon. So I'm really excited about those three pieces that'll be coming out in our next issue of Run•Tri•Bike Magazine. Hilary - So as you know the listeners of this podcast are mostly CEOs who may be into a swim bike, run triathlons, and so forth. Any words of advice that you would like to share with our listeners? Just thinking about getting into the sport. Jason - I'd hate to steal from Nike, but a Phil Knight listens to your podcast, I would say, just do it. I mean, we all started somewhere, and a lot of times we were there at, into this, or we found a story that inspired us and we probably spent days, weeks, months thinking about doing it instead of just doing it, but go out there, find a club that is welcoming to beginners because again, we've all been there. You're going to show up in a cotton t-shirt and a Nike's air Jordans instead of LAN, spandex and Lycra it's okay. Just go out there. These people will support you and put their arms around you and show you the way you don't have to be perfect on day one, just go, just get out there and get active. Even if it's walking, even if it's, um, sitting on a spin bike in a gym, get active, it's as simple as that, you'll figure your way out after that. Hilary - That's awesome. Thank you for that advice. I love that. Talk to us a little bit about how people can buy Run•Tri•Bike Magazine or subscribe, or, what have you like, how does that work? Jason - Oh, I love... anytime I can talk about and market our business. I'm happy to do that. So if you go to, for all your listeners, if you go to Run•Tri•Bike Magazine, we have a store on the site that you can click and go to subscriptions to purchase a one or a two-year subscription. If you happen to be in a club and you want to get the club highlighted in our clubs spotlight feature, whether in print or online, nominate your club, we will send you a discount code for 20% off of your club members for all the subscriptions, all of our social profiles have links to the subscriptions. If you are, near a running store, a cycling shop, ask them for a copy. We have distributed about 1500 copies nationwide to endurance specialty stores. And then another way to get your hands on a copy is we are working with races all across the country to have our magazine in the swag bags that you get. So if you show up to a race and you don't have it, ask the race director for it and that'll help us with the distribution side of it all. But yeah, Run•Tri•Bike on all social media platforms, as well as www.trisportmag.com. and you'll be pointed in the right direction for getting your hands on the magazine. Hilary - Awesome. That's great. I love that. Thank you so much, Jason and Angela for being on the show. I also want to thank our sponsors, the Russo Law Group, The Profit Express, Pop international galleries, gold Benes, and The Pegalis law group. And last but not least, I want to thank you our listeners for tuning in each week. If you want more information on this show or any other show, you can visit us at hilarytopperonair.com or you can find us on Spotify, iTunes, or Google Play. Have a great week, and we'll see you next time.

Show Description On this episode, Michael, Taylor, and Jason discuss Apple's discontinuation of the original HomePod, and iMac Pro. News Apple discontinues the original HomePod and iMac Pro. For more info, see the links in the show description. Evidence that supports the eminent a-rival of Apple's AirTags was Found in the Find My app in the iOS 14.5 beta. Hims has launched the BrailleSense 6. Google released the Android 12 technical preview. Ad iAccessibility app development services Picks Jason: TalkBack version 9.1. Taylor: GeneratePress Michael: The Expeditionary Force Book Series Providing Feedback We love hearing from you, so feel free to send an email to feedback@iaccessibility.net. You can follow us on Facebook, and Twitter. You can also find us on Reddit, and all around the web. Also, don't forget to check out our YouTube page, and for all things iACast, check out our iACast page. If you'd like to help support us, you can do so via our PayPal and Patreon pages. If you wish to interact with us during our podcasts live then please do join us on our Slack channel. Show Transcription MICHAEL: Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of the IA cast. All right, with me today, I have the usual group. We have Taylor Arndt, TAYLOR: Hello, everyone, MICHAEL: and Jason Earls. JASON: Hello, everybody. MICHAEL: All right, we have a great episode for you today. And you know, we've been gone for a few weeks. We had a kind of a crazy storm And then we wanted to get back on a regular schedule. So, we're back with a new episode to talk about all the interesting news that's happened recently and some rumors and news and a bunch of different things that have happened. So, let's jump right into it. Our main topic for today is the first news item, and that's the HomePod being discontinued. And I have very mixed opinions on this. JASON: I do too. I kind of understand why Apple discontinued the HomePod. Also, they discontinued the HomePod! It's okay, HomePod buddy, I still love you! As I pat my HomePod. MICHAEL: Didn't we have a hashtag for a while, pet the HomePod? JASON: I think we did. TAYLOR: Hilarious. JASON: I was just trying not to pat the screen because I didn't want music to happen, but that would have actually been really funny. MICHAEL: I think I have a picture of headphones sitting on a HomePod. JASON: Oh, yeah! The Andrea Cans! MICHAEL: Yeah, yeah. JASON: But yeah, on one hand, I understand why they did it because it was at launch a what, $350 Smart speaker that couldn't do terribly much more than play music. I mean yes, it sounded good, But you know, it's not what people were looking for in their smart speakers. Especially considering the likes of the Echo devices, the Google Home Hubs or Homes at the time. And you know, the HomePod's been around for like 4 years. So, in one respect, I kind of understand it. And you know, the HomePod Mini does have some features that the big HomePod doesn't have regarding the U1 chip and everything. But at the same time, the HomePod does sound so good! And as good as the Mini is and as great sales figures as the Mini is because of its price point and everything, you can't argue that it just does not sound as good as the big HomePod. TAYLOR: Right. But I think if we're thinking about it, the majority of consumers, they may not be in depth with audio and they may not understand that the HomePod sounds the way it is and that they want to pay for that. Because a lot of them just want to listen to music, and they want it to be portable. And so, that's where I think it's coming down to. Like, I understand why they they discontinued it, but yeah, it's kind of sad. I mean personally, I don't have a big HomePod, but that's because in a small apartment, I just don't have a lot of room. JASON: Right. And, you know, they did say that they are still going to push out software updates for the big HomePods and support the Apple Care which is good because I just got Apple Care last year. TAYLOR: Oh, that would stink otherwise. JASON: Right? But like, I really want them to come out with a bigger HomePod for 199. That's what I'm hoping for, even though they publicly said to I think it was like iMore or whatever that they were in fact focusing their efforts on HomePod Mini. Because let's think about it like this, the big HomePod — you know, Apple slash the price to 299, right? So, for $200. You could get two HomePod mini for less money than one bigger HomePod. Now, that doesn't mean it's going to have the bigger, basier sound of the HomePod, but at least you would get stereo audio and stuff. MICHAEL: Well, let's leave this part for the end because we're already kind of diving in. JASON: I know right? I like, I got thoughts I'm sorry. MICHAEL: But the other bit of news is the iMac Pro completely was discontinued and they're only selling them while supplies last JASON:That I'm not sad about. MICHAEL: In a way, I am. I think it was a great product, but I think we're about to see something new come from Apple. And as usual, we will be doing a live stream of that event. At least that's the plan. We'll be doing a live stream of the Apple event when it happens later this month. Because we do know for certain, right, that there is an apple event? JASON: I don't think we do know for certain. I just think speculations hide that there may be one, at least last I checked. But March 23 is the rumored date for the Apple event. I also haven't really looked at the news today. So things may have changed. But last I knew it was a hypothetical thing at this point. I mean, a highly likely thing at this point. MICHAEL: And I think it's because they're discontinuing these devices and the fact that we have so much information in the code about our next topic, and that's potential AirTags coming soon. Because there's mention of them in the find my app. TAYLOR: Yes, there is. MICHAEL: On the beta TAYLOR: Which is awesome because I've saw YouTube videos. Obviously, I don't have the beta myself, but I've seen YouTube videos that have mentioned it. Obviously, when you're on to prepare for the podcast just kind of looking at all the news. And but yeah, definitely pretty cool. And hopefully, hopefully they work. I mean, Tile's nice, but it'd be nice to have something built in and integrated for finding stuff. JASON: Right, and I guess Apple's opening up the FindMy protocol so that companies like Tile could take advantage of it as well. And it's nice to see that they are opening up more of their frameworks and things. MICHAEL: Well, and I think that's because there's been so much blame for antitrust and things between them and Google and things like that, that they're trying to make sure that they stay open — JASON: ahead of that, Yeah. MICHAEL: Because Google's had a lot of problems with that because they're in everything. The last bit of news that we have is, and I won't make any jokes, Jason, I won't do it, I won't do it. Those will be left for off the podcast, the BrailleSense 6. And I only make this joke because if you want to learn more, head to hims-inc.com/bs.6 . And I'm not kidding. Take all the jokes from that you can. JASON: Exactly. MICHAEL: Basically, we have the BrailleSense 6, and it was announced this week at CSUN. From what I've been able to tell, it was one of the biggest announcements because there weren't a lot of announcements this week. And the BrailleSense 6 dropped the Polaris naming. And it's Android 10, 120 Gigs of hard drive space, 80211AC wireless, a battery that while under load will drain 21% in an hour and a half if doing the max amount of work. That's the only battery statistic we can get. It has SD card slot, it has two USBA ports, a two USBC ports, a headphone jack, supports microphone, The, what is that called, Jason? JASON: I think it's TRRS, actually, I believe is the technical standard which is basically what this microphone that I'm using is, which is, think the older headphone jacks on the iPhones or the the headphone jack on the Mac. So it's that single microphone combo jack. MICHAEL: And it has all that, it has new software installed. And the person doing the presentation was using Zoom on the BrailleSense. So that's pretty promising. The only concerns I have are if it's going to get Android 11 and up, and how well the software is going to work because the Polaris had a lot of issues with deleting documents and things like that. JASON: Yeah, the BrailleSense Polaris is a very interesting device. I think it also actually Michael, in addition to the headphone jack, I think they said it also has a stereo line in Port as well. So you could connect music things to it, you know, binaural microphones really would work I would imagine to it. MICHAEL: Nice! JASON: Did you mention that it has 6 Gigs of RAM? MICHAEL: No, I did not. TAYLOR: Nope, you didn't JASON: So yeah, it's got six Gigs of RAM, an 8 core CPU. I don't remember if they announced the clock speeds of it, but — MICHAEL: It didn't. JASON: So, it really does seem like a very interesting device and — MICHAEL: And it's gonna cost 5799, come out in June. TAYLOR: Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of money. JASON: So we do know, the battery will be user replaceable though because they talked about that at the CSUN announcement I think MICHAEL: they do offer financing and trade ins for your older devices, so those are options to get you a lot closer in price to those devices. So JASON: Yeah, it's a very interesting device. I do worry what the battery life is really going to be like, TAYLOR: Right, and also if it can — like some note takers have a problem where they fall behind mainstream. And so that's the other concern too, is that like, you buy the $6,000 device almost. Well, it's already running two versions behind of Android almost at this point. 12 is beta. So that's the other thing too. These notetakers I mean, they're great for what they are, but you know, it's a specialized thing, and they're not always up to date. JASON: Like I said to you guys, I think off the show, if I were to get a note taker, it would probably be the BrailleSense. You know, the BrailleSense 6. It's so weird that they don't have a name for it now. TAYLOR: I know. MICHAEL: Alright, you know, and we could have a whole episode on notetakers, but I think we would want to have somebody on that can talk more about Braille and mainstream versus notetaker because I think that would be a very cool discussion. So TAYLOR: Yes. JASON: Yeah, I do too. Because I mean, I've used the BrailleSense in the past, but the BrailleSense I used was, I think, even before the U2. So, it was definitely not any of the Android based BrailleSense devices. So MICHAEL: Another thing that's happened, the last news topic I really could think about, is Android 12 is in technical preview. We really haven't talked about that. And I hear it brings a whole lot of user interface changes, but not a lot of — you're not going to be able to notice it very much with Talkback. JASON: Yeah, that's true. I have been playing a little bit with the beta. After a couple false starts, I eventually got it on my Pixel. I accidentally installed the version of Android, that AOSP version, so it didn't actually have a screen reader which is why I wasn't getting speech. TAYLOR: Oh, no. How did you fix that? JASON: I pre flashed it — MICHAEL: Very carefully. JASON: I was — TAYLOR: Yeah, very carefully. JASON: Yeah, very carefully. So yeah, I reflashed it, because you can actually go to the Google developer site, and you can actually use their online flash tool, and it will basically do all the work for you MICHAEL: Online? That's cool! JASON: It downloads the image to the device, you have to enable some things like OAM Unlock, and whatnot, it'll download the image to the device, and it will tell you when it's safe to unplug your phone at which point it should be booting into the beta of Android. MICHAEL: That's fancy. JASON: I know. MICHAEL: And talk about the security implications there. I mean, it's Google, and they have all the security keys and all that. But could you imagine if somebody were to spoof that, and be able to put a knot legit version of Android from a website? JASON: Yeah, I know. I did actually think about that. And then I stopped thinking about it. TAYLOR: That might have been a good idea. JASON: But like I said, I do have Android 12 installed. I don't notice too much of a difference. Although honestly, my Pixels not my primary driver, my primary driver's my iPhone. So what I can say though, is that 12 does seem to be relatively stable. And along with the introduction of Talkback 9.1 which is not specific to Android 12, I do think that the Android experience is going to improve a bit which is nice and awesome to see. MICHAEL: Yeah. So, it's really cool that, you know, we have the ability to flash these devices remotely. I think it's really neat. But we'll have more information about what's in the beta for Android 12 in a future episode, but I think it's really cool that we have the ability to do that, and to try these things before they come out, you know, iOS, Android, Windows through the Windows Insider program, and things like that. JASON: I think the one thing that was kind of annoying to me though is — and maybe it's just I did it in a way that made this happen. But it ended up forcing me to reset my phone to flash the version of Android 12 on to it. And of course, when I had the version without talkback, I didn't mind resetting my phone. And I think if you downgrade back to Android 11, I believe it will make you reset as well. They do tell you that. So MICHAEL: you know, I love how my watch made a noise even though I have — typically if I mute my phone, my watch will mute with it, but not this time. JASON: Oh, interesting. MICHAEL: Yeah, usually it mirrors but not this time, that's interesting. All right, so for our ad part of the show today, I want to talk to you guys about app development services that's offered by iAccessibility. iAccessibility offers app development services for iOS and Android at $50 an hour where we will build your app from the ground up based on your website or however, whatever app you're trying to build. And the app will be accessible and usable by all users. Unless it's a game that you really need specific use cases. We'll still try to make it as accessible as possible, though. So,, we've built apps like VO Starter, we've built apps like Pocket Braille, Blind Bargains, ACB Link, And that's just a few of the different apps on a lot of platforms that have been created. So $50 an hour minimum of $1,000 and you can have your app in the iOS and Google Play app stores. So you can go to iaccessibility.net to learn more, and we will be promoting that more on the website. So, people look out and we'll have more information. So thanks for listening to the iACast. And now on to our main topic for today. And we've already talked a little bit about that, and it's Apple discontinuing products like the HomePod. And you guys, I — this is — I feel like this is the most products that Apple's discontinued at one time. And you know, Microsoft has done it. I mean, they discontinued a whole store line. Google, Google is the project killer, they are known for that. Do you guys think Apple's kind of jumping on board that train, JASON: I think in a way they are. I really think what they're trying to do is they're trying to streamline their product line, and you know, not have so many variations of things around. Especially in the case of the iMac Pro. I keep wanting to call it the MacBook Pro. That is a different product. But the iMac Pro because they really want us all to move over to Apple silicon, which, you know, I'm personally fine with. So I really think that's part of it. And, you know, as far as the HomePod, I like to think that they have something new planned to replace this beautiful, soft, lovely mesh, big HomePod that I'm totally like rubbing a finger against right now because it just, it's fun! MICHAEL: Hashtag pet the HomePod. JASON: Exactly. But you know, I really hope that they do have something to replace the bigger HomePod with at some point soon. Because, yeah. TAYLOR: Yeah. So the thing with that is that, I think, like I said, a lot of these companies are doing that right now. They're just trying to streamline. And you know, Google has been doing it for years. Microsoft kills things. But Apple, like I said, this is really a first. They don't really do this all that often. And so, either one of two things, they either have a lot more products coming and they need to get rid of stuff, or they're just trying to streamline because a COVID and everything, obviously, but we've been in COVID for over a year now. So who knows. You know, they're just trying to get things streamline. Or if they are trying to add new products, but they need to get rid of some first. MICHAEL: And it might be — it might just be that they don't plan to update. Oh, well, actually, you know what? I think the Home Pod runs on the processor that the iPhone seven runs on. Isn't it, Jason? JASON: The big HomePod? Yeah, it's the A8. MICHAEL: Oh, wow. And I think that's the next on the chopping block this year, guys. TAYLOR: iPhone seven, you think next? JASON: I think well, the seven has the A9, right? MICHAEL: I don't remember — JASON: No, wait a minute. No, I think the A8 is from the iPhone 6. Actually. MICHAEL: But I remember the 6S is the last version — iOS runs on the 6S. And so I bet the iPhone seven will be the final version that 15 will run on. JASON: Oh, that's possible. I mean, at the same time, they did actually change the foundation according to some tech sites. They did change the foundation of what HomePod OS was. So for a while it was based on a foundation of iOS. And then I don't remember when this happened. But supposedly they ended up changing the foundation from iOS to TV OS so that it wouldn't have as much code and things in in the OS that isn't really needed and used by the HomePod. So I was kind of not expecting to see the cancellation of the big HomePod for another year or two yet. I was a bit surprised. But maybe — I mean, I was going to say maybe this has something to do too, with the silicon chip shortage. But that would probably be more to do with the Mac, I would think maybe then the homePod. MICHAEL: Well, it's interesting because I'm wondering if they're going to rename the HomePod Mini eventually to something else. Or if we're going to have the HomePod Pro, come out and then put a new device in later on in the HomePod category JASON: Right, or the HomePod Max. TAYLOR: Right, or the HomePod Pro Max. JASON: I don't think they'll do Pro — well, I lie, 12 Pro. — MICHAEL: If you think about it, on the Mac, we don't have a MacBook, we have the Mac Mini, the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro. We don't have a Mac Book or the Mac. TAYLOR: Oh, right. MICHAEL: So that might be kind of the landscape we're looking at for HomePod for a while. JASON: Maybe. MICHAEL: Because if you notice the mac book that came out like 2015-2016– JASON: 2015-2016, I think 2016, yeah. MICHAEL: It was short lived as well. So you know we have the air and the pro that are still around but the flagship name was was discontinued quick on that line too. So that's kind of interesting to think about. JASON: Yeah, it really is. And I think the one thing that's keeping me from being complete and utter 100% distraught that the big HomePod is being discontinued is just the fact that the — and I think I said this before, that Apple did say that they are still going to issue software updates for the big home pods for the time being, and supported still through Apple Care. MICHAEL: I'm wondering if you put two HomePod minis in a room, if you get the same quality sound as one big HomePod, JASON: I think you would get the same overall quality sound, because the HomePod Mini does seem like it sounds very similar to the big HomePod just without that deep low bass that the big ones can hit. MICHAEL: Yeah. And I don't know, it's to the point where when we look at these devices, it's hard to it's, and you know, maybe I'm just, my train of thought just keeps going all over the place. But the more I think about things, maybe this is a way for tech companies to dispel rumors and leaks by just saying, we're going to discontinue this, we're going to change this. And so it kind of throws people off to know what the next step is going to be. JASON: Yeah, maybe. I think though, in the case of the iMac pro being discontinued, we all know, it's most likely going to be because we're going to be seeing an apple silicon based iMac. Now whether we see that on March 23, which I personally don't think we'll see. I will say that on the show. And I'll be very happy to be wrong. But I don't think we're going to see that on the 23rd. MICHAEL: I think we will, I think that's going to be the focus is iMacs this year. JASON: I don't know, I think we might see things about AirTags and iPad pros and stuff, but we'll see. If I'm wrong. I'll be happy. Michael: See, maybe we need to come up with the accessibility pool. Because what I think we're gonna see and take your bets people. TAYLOR: Okay, MICHAEL: I think we're gonna see iMacs, colored iMacs, I don't think we're gonna see iPads just yet. But that's just me. Now, in saying that, iPads have come out in March before. So it's not out of the norm. But IMAX used to be used for education as well. And so if they bring out the colored iMacs like they had for education in the past and kind of marketed towards that, I could definitely see that being a march thing. And plus, iPad Pro has typically has an 18 month life cycle. It's only been 11 months since iPads have come out. So in other words, this is Michael trying to say please let my iPad be relevant in April. TAYLOR: Well, I have to agree with Jason on this one, Michael. Because, like I said, with all the evidence and stuff, I think it's gonna be AirTags and stuff. But again, if I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to admit it. But I really think I have to agree with Jason, Michael. MICHAEL: And who knows, we may see all these things. I doubt it but TAYLOR: That'd crazy. JASON: no, you know what's really gonna happen. Apple's not actually going to have a product event on the 23rd, they're going to just announced their new products quietly on their site. And then we'll all be wrong. MICHAEL: And it could happen, it could happen. JASON: I do think though regardless, as sad as I am to see the big HomePod be discontinued, and like I said, me personally, I'm not terribly upset about the iMac pros cancellation and we're excited because, you know, that just tells me to watch out for the iMac. Not that I'm going to get one but it's still always fun to see what they're going to come out with. I still enjoy my HomePod. You know, I still plan on using it until something happens. Like, if nothing else using it until Apple decides they're not going to update it anymore. Whenever that may be, so. MICHAEL: Well, and that shows me that them discontinuing these things that just, especially on the iMac side it means that they have something new coming around the corner and they may decide that the pro line of iMac just isn't needed anymore because of what the A1 and A1x will do for these devices. I mean — JASON: You mean the M1? MICHAEL: Yeah, the M1. JASON: It's a processor, Michael it's not steak sauce. TAYLOR & MICHAEL: Right. MICHAEL: That needs to be the name of an episode sometime. Our previous episode title we came up with it is going to be it. JASON: Yeah, but that would be hilarious. 156 It's a processor not steak sauce. MICHAEL: All right. And you know, I wonder if that's why they started with a4S. JASON: I don't know. MICHAEL: Because Could you imagine Apple naming, now introducing our first processor line, the A1. JASON: and then Could you imagine the hilarity in covering the lawsuits, if that would even happen. That'd be funny. MICHAEL: Anyway, would that'd be a coprocessor for for Intel the A1 because it has to go along with it to make it better? TAYLOR: I don't know, would it be? That's your call. MICHAEL: I mean, if we're comparing Intel to steak there would be A1 processor from Apple to JASON: They'll call it, I don't know, I was gonna say steak Lake, but that just sounds weird. Dinner Lake, MICHAEL: Dinner lake. All right, out there. There you go Intel. When you come out with that chip that everybody wants just say time for dinner. Like, JASON: Exactly. MICHAEL: Anyway, I think this is the most jokes we've told in a podcast. And I really think that the M1X will really be like, there's no pro version of that, there's no way to up the process or on that. So there's, on the Intel iMacs, you can get i5, I7, I9, and you have the better display on the Pro, which they can still do the better display. But if the display is already going to be amazing in these new iMacs with the new chips, then they don't have a need to do that. So, there may not need to be an iMac pro because the new iMac will just be able to boast that it's pro already with the built in Apple silicon. JASON: And that was kind of my thinking, when I first read about the cancellation of the iMac Pro, I was actually thinking as you were talking and I don't really think Apple's gonna do this, if they came out with instead of the M1x. Or the M1 2, having the M1 Pro, but I really don't think they would do that, considering they already have products in their pro line that have the M1 and that would confuse people. MICHAEL: Right. But, you know, I just think that they're going to, I think that they — now that we're looking at coming slowly out of COVID, they're going to be looking for the best way to sell their products. And if you could just say, look at the shiny new products we have in our stores aren't aren't these amazing, people are going to want them and especially if they start doing these colors, like they've shown on concept art and things like that, that that are rumored, that's just going to be amazing. JASON: I mean, look at how popular the new Macs have been already, you know, because working from home and they've got that long battery life and the slightly upgraded camera because of the ISP MICHAEL: And you know, I'm doing all this on an M1 Mac, the recording and Zoom, and all that. And I keep telling people it's the better of the two machines. I mean, this is still a terrible camera, but I'm looking at my face on here. And it looks a lot better than my other Mac did, by far. So Apple has really gone a long way with what they're doing. All right, do you guys have any final comments we want to give before we wrap up today? JASON: Steak! MICHAEL: Yes. TAYLOR: Oh my God! JASON: No, I'm kidding. But you know, it's very interesting to see these product cancellations. I keep flitting between I'm sad, especially for the HomePod. And it's because there's going to be something new, like, a lot of me is just like, This has to because there's something new. So it's going to be very interesting to see what actually ends up happening. MICHAEL: Well, you know, the interesting thing, I want to point this out. The interesting thing about the home pod Mini is you don't need to plug those into the wall. JASON: Right. MICHAEL: And that's really interesting. I mean, you could build a USBC — you could buy a USBC hub, plug it into the wall and have five home pod minis hooked up to that thing — TAYLOR: In a power strip. Yeah. MICHAEL: Well, not even a power strip, just a USBC hub. TAYLOR: Oh, wow. Oh, yeah because it doesn't even plug in to the wall. Wow, I'm not thinking JASON: Or a battery pack. MICHAEL: Yeah, you could hook it up to a battery pack. And so that makes it almost more usable than the echo. TAYLOR: Yes, Yes! MICHAEL: And so I think that's why Apple really wants to focus on that because they're like, there's so much possibility here. TAYLOR: I wouldn't blame them. MICHAEL: I mean, it sounds better than any echo. I'm sure. I don't know, I haven't heard one yet. But JASON: Review say they do. MICHAEL: So, you know you put a few in a room. You're gonna get good audio. The only thing that you can't do is use the standard stereo speaker — or TV speakers. JASON: You can, they just won't — I just don't think they'll do Dolby Atmos and stuff that the big HomePods do. MICHAEL: How would you do — oh, well, Apple TV speakers, but how would you use the standard TV speakers? JASON: Oh, okay. Yeah, I misheard. I thought you said Apple TV. Yeah, you can't use Well, you can't even use a big HomePod as a standard TV speaker. So that's not MICHAEL: It's not new. Could you imagine if they came out with the HomePod sub where you had 2 of the apple speakers of the homepod minis as your regular speakers? Now, that's a possibility. JASON: That's actually funny that you mentioned that because I was talking to somebody pre show about that. And what they had said is, Apple comes out with this sub and then gives it 2 USB C ports so that you can plug two HomePods directly into the wall or something. I don't know if that is what they're going to do. But that would certainly be interesting. It'll definitely help with the idea of, I want to have stereo speakers, but I need two outlets if they decided to go that route. So who knows? MICHAEL: Yeah, I'm really excited to see what they do. I mean, if they bring out a HomePod sub, I will press that Buy button immediately. I'm not kidding that if they did that, you know, I would buy a home pod sub. And it kind of makes sense, guys, I think that's actually probably what they're going to do. Because it would make money for them. If you had to buy two HomePod Minis and A HomePod sub. Let's price the sub at $200. They're making $50 more off of you then if you bought one HomePod. Now, granted, they're not going to make 600 or $700 if you had to buy two regular HomePods. But, who's gonna do that anyway? TAYLOR: Right. JASON: Yeah, that's true. I think though, the only downside to this is, as it stands right now, if you were looking to buy HomePods, new, that would do Dolby Atmos, you can't, because that was a feature specific to the bigger HomePods. And I don't know if it's because the eight is more powerful than the S5 or whatever CPU the minis have inside, I think it's the S5 or if it's just that the Mini. , I mean, the big HomePod has more microphones, and it's not limited to the chip. But as of right now, you can't buy new home pods directly from Apple. If you want to do Dolby Atmos. MICHAEL: actually you can for right now during the time of this recording, but. JASON: I didn't even see a link in the store for the HomePod when I last looked. MICHAEL: So I just looked, and they're still in the Apple Store app for 299. You can pick either one. JASON: Oh, they have the Space Gray ones back? MICHAEL: Yeah, they're showing both of them, at least when I looked it showed a picture showing both of them. JASON: Oh, that's interesting, because I knew for a while that they only had the white ones around. And it's very interesting then that I couldn't get to them. Because on the Apple Store, on Apple's website, if you wanted to see the HomePods, the only way it was able to find them is by going under the Apple Music link. And they talked about the HomePods and the AirPods and the AirPods Max. The only HomePod they listed was the HomePod Mini. Whereas the big HomePod used to be there. So that's interesting that they still show up in the Apple Store — MICHAEL: Yep, they are in the Aplle Store app. Yeah. JASON: And of course you can buy them from other retailers. It's not just Apple that sells the HomePods but MICHAEL: And since they're discontinued, I would wait so you can get them from Best Buy or somewhere else where they will be much cheaper. TAYLOR: Yep. JASON: Just keep in mind, if you're going to go that route, that we don't know how long Apple is going to support the big HomePods with software updates, even — All we know is that they are still going to support them. MICHAEL: Alright, well, that's gonna do it for our show today. Jason, to end us off for today, where can people find you online? And what's your pick? JASON: So my pick is, funnily enough, not an Apple product, but rather a Google product. MICHAEL: Ah, just wait. It'll be discontinued at some point. TAYLOR: Probably Well, next week. JASON: Specifically, my pick is talkback version 9.1. And I pick it because it enhances talkback by allowing you to use multi finger gestures. Finally, it has a Braille keyboard. Although, the Braille keyboards been there since 8.4 I think it was? But I really find I like the multi finger gestures. I like the new unified talkback menu. And it's just, I just love this version of talkback compared to the older ones, because I can disable the angular gestures and the proximity sensor silencing speech. I can turn that off now because you can now tap with two fingers to pause speech. MICHAEL: Oh, that's fantastic. JASON: And the magic tap gesture for iOS users is there. And so it's really nice. You know, they don't have the rotor as such. I mean, you can't rotate two fingers on the screen or whatever, but they definitely do have an easy way to navigate, granularity and stuff now and it's all customized Pretty much. So talkback 9.1 it's pretty nice. So that is my pick. As far as where people can find me, you can find me producing content for iAccessibility, you can email me at Jason@iaccessibility.net. And you can also follow me on twitter at jde 1. I know that I have been giving my Facebook out in past episodes, I have decided that I will no longer give that out. I no longer have the app installed. So yeah, those are the ways you can follow me, find me email emailing me and following me on on Twitter. And if you catch me in clubhouse, then feel free to say hi, MICHAEL: All right, Taylor, what's your pick for the week? And where can people find you online? TAYLOR: Okay, so my pick is a little technical. So I'm going to explain it. I pick generate press. And for those who don't know, Generatepress is a WordPress theme. And a WordPress theme is basically a thing that will help enhance the visuals of your site. So it basically helps make your site look the way it looks. In a short version. I mean, like a short description. So what it will do is it is really awesome, because you can customize every part of your site. And the cool part is that it's fully accessible. There are two versions free and premium. The free theme is literally just you go download it from wordpress.org theme directory, and the paid one is a paid plugin. I believe it's 59 a year or what? I can't rember the lifetime of like 249 lifetime Michael? MICHAEL: I didn't see a life. Yeah, I think it's 250 lifetime TAYLOR: Okay, so I really love Generatepress thanks to Michael Babcock and dimasi Thomas for mentioning those to me in a Clubhouse room. Where you can find me online, I'm all over the web. Literally, I have a YouTube channel that I would like you guys to check out, Taylor's Tech Talks. And that also has a podcast now. So if you like hearing from me, you can hear from me and both of those places. I also am on Twitter and clubhouse you can email me at Taylor@iAccessibility.net. And follow me on Twitter, Taylor_arndt22. And I am also producing content for iAccessibility. MICHAEL: Alright, so my pick for this week is a book series I'm reading called Expeditionary Force. And the first book in this series is called Columbus Day. The author is, I believe his name is Craig allanson. And he he has written several books in this series. And it's an awesome, awesome book series, The sci fi series about aliens taking over Earth, and about how humanity kind of steals a ship and goes out in the galaxy to kind of protect Earth. So there's an AI That's hilarious. And I'm not going to give anything more away about the series. But check it out. Highly recommend it. I'm on the third book right now. And I've been reading it for about two weeks and each books about 15 hours on Audible. So that tells you how dedicated to this series I am. So highly recommend it. As for where you can find me. You can find me producing content for iAccessibility. You can email me at mikedoise@iAccessibility.net. I'm Mike, always on Twitter, and on Facebook, just search for Michael Doise. And you go to Michaeldoise.com from my website, and I have a YouTube channel that I'm trying to make time to work on. And you know, I have content everywhere. And yeah, just very excited to be on clubhouse. I'm there as well. So find me on clubhouse. Just search for Michael Doise, and we even now, here's an announcement. We have a club. We're all fancy and everything we have the iAccessibility network club. In fact, after this recording, we will be on clubhouse doing a after episode kind of a discussion to talk about these things. So come hang out with us on clubhouse as we talk about today's episode. So we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the IiACast. And we'll be back in two weeks for another episode. And it's been awesome getting to talk about all these things with you guys, Jason and Taylor. Want to thank everybody that's been on the stream and everybody that will listen once the episode comes out. And we will be back next time for new episodes. So until then, take care and keep playing with new technology. JASON: This show has been brought to you by the IACast Network. We love hearing from you. Email us at feedback@iaccessibility.net. Got twitter? Follow us at iaccessibility1. Facebook, search for IAccessibility. Download our free apps for IOS and Android and keep up with all of our content at iaccessibility.net. If you'd like to donate to our show, hit the payPal button on our website, and get early access to our outtakes with a donation at patrion.com/iacast. Thanks for listening

Today, Lucy Branch talks to Jason deCaires Taylor, who is a sculptor, environmentalist, and professional underwater photographer. He has permanent site-specific work spanning several continents and predominantly explores submerged and tidal-marine environments. He's the only sculptor in the series who does not work in bronze, but I can't hold that against him because his work is utterly fascinating. He has a deep understanding of the crisis that humanity is facing with the damage that they're doing to the environment. The fact he enables expression of this through his underwater sculpture is well worth listening to. Join us and BE INSPIRED BY SCULPTURE. You can find images of Jason deCaires Taylor's work and a transcription of the interview at the Sculpture Vulture Blog - SCULPTURE VULTURE If you are looking for a new book, the novel mentioned in this interview is currently available free from Sculpture Vulture. This podcast was brought to you by Antique Bronze, Specialists in the Conservation and Restoration of Sculptural and Architectural Features Snippet from the interview: Lucy: Have you always been creative? Jason: No, not necessarily. No, I actually started my art career much, much later on in life. I studied sculpture at university, but then, after that, I sort of did a whole range of different professions, none of which were particularly creative. But it was only later on in life that I managed to, you know, make it a full-time profession. Lucy: What sent you off to art school then? Jason: Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean I come from a family that...you know, there's many, many painters and sculptors and, generally we've always been involved, in some way, in the creative arts. But yeah, I think it was a really, sort of, natural choice for me to go to university. You know, when you're at that age and you're, sort of, weighing up all the different options of what to do in life, I kind of just went with what I enjoyed the most and what I loved doing, and it was certainly art. Lucy: So, a family, being artistic, who were quite happy for you to do that. That's not always the case. Jason: No, I was very lucky. You know, I had parents that really encouraged me to, sort of, follow my own vocation. Yeah, some people are not as fortunate but, for me, it kind of really worked out. Lucy: What did you do after you left university? Jason: Many different things. It was quite, sort of, an interesting path. I mean I studied sculpture and ceramics at Camberwell College of Arts. And after that, I actually had that dreaded feeling, like, "Oh my god, you know, how am I going to make a living out of this?" I actually found it quite... you know, the equation of taking on jobs maybe that I didn't like too much but they paid the bills. I always wanted the creative part to be free and not constrained in any way, which, I suppose, everybody does. But, practically speaking, it's not always possible. So, I really turned against that and I thought, "I'm just going to try some other different types of jobs and see what I enjoy doing."

Thank you for bearing with me as I roll out podcasts. Some of you had trouble subscribing to get these podcasts in your regular player. You have a few options. The simplest way is to just add the RSS feed to your player (link). You can also find the podcast the way you find any podcast. Here is the link to the larger players: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. The “best” way to subscribe is a little more complicated. Click on the little grey link above (or here). It will give you a URL for a “private RSS feed”. If you ever subscribe to Marketing BS+ this will allow you to get the premium podcasts directly into your player (and all the non-premium ones in the meantime).Sorry for the confusion yesterday. I am figuring this stuff out as I go along. (Fun fact: The idea of public “beta” software originated with Netscape, October 13, 1994. It has been growing strong ever since.)Onto Part II. of my interview with Jason Goldlist, former head of marketing for WealthSimple. Yesterday's Part I covered Jason's career. This part of the interview dives into the (unusual) marketing channels and techniques Jason used to scale WealthSimple into the largest “roboadvisor” in Canada. I particularly like the billboard stunt. As always the entire transcript of the conversation is below, but I recommend listening through your podcast player.Transcript:Edward: This is part two of my interview with Jason Goldlist. Today, we're going to dive into his experience as Head of Marketing at Wealthsimple. First, Jason, can you describe what Wealthsimple is for those who do not understand?Jason: Wealthsimple is a leading financial technology player in Canada that helps make personal finance really simple and really powerful. It's a robo-adviser, so it helps automate investments. It's a savings platform, helps you save your cash for the future, it lets you buy and sell stocks, and even buy and sell cryptocurrency.Edward: Is it like a combination of Betterment with Robin Hood?Jason: And Coinbase.Edward: Got it, and is that a good description or is it something different? Again, if those three companies were to merge, that's Wealthsimple?Jason: Sure. Wealthsimple operates predominantly in Canada and the Canadian financial services market is totally different than in the US. What happens in Canada is you've got five big banks that completely control Canadians' finances. Wealthsimple is hoping to be that sixth alternative bank that's going to come in and shake up the entire industry. We think that there is a whole slew of financial products that consumers need, that they want, but they aren't getting from the big banks.Edward: Got it. I think that's super helpful and sets the groundwork. I want to dive into your biggest marketing channels, which I think are fairly unusual for a company of that size. Let's start with offline partnerships. What were you doing there?Jason: I was lucky enough to join Wealthsimple at a very early stage. I was the 10th employee of Wealthsimple, leading marketing, building that team essentially from scratch, and when I left Wealthsimple, it was several hundred employees managing billions of dollars with a really large, robust marketing, product, and brand team.The channels that we focused on changed throughout the evolution of Wealthsimple. You can imagine at the beginning when I joined, we had only raised, I think, less than $ 2 million Canadian. There wasn't a lot of money to go out and spend. We were really scrappy with each and every customer. At that time, adding 10 customers, adding 100 customers was a big win. Later to the end of my 10 years at Wealthsimple, of course, adding 10 or 100 customers happened in the blink of an eye. We were looking for new ways to grow customers by thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands at a time. What we looked at evolved over time, but we've always been looking at channels that aren't the easy ones. I've always had this feeling that if it was an easy channel, the return isn't going to be there. You've got to pioneer a channel in order for it to be really unique and interesting to your business. Because every business is a little bit different, I also think you want to create your own little bit different channel. Just because these big channels, whether it's traditional channels like television, Facebook, or Google work for other people, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you. I think the process of thinking deeply about what it is that makes your business and your customers different and then going out and creating your own channel for it, can make a world of difference.Edward: When you say offline partnership, what does that mean?Jason: One of the channels that we cultivated was, as you mentioned, offline partnerships. What that means to us is how could we find other brands or other organizations that had large customer bases that wanted to share those customers with us. This would be not through a platform, not through a marketplace, but actually going directly to other brands, finding, and building relationships that were win-win and mutually beneficial. As an example, one of the earliest partnerships we did was with Airbnb. We looked at the landscape of brands and said the brand that we aspire to be and that our clients aspire to use would be a brand like Airbnb. I think I went on LinkedIn and I think I just typed in Airbnb and I use the geography filter for Canada. I was like, who is running Airbnb in Canada? We traded some emails and we sort of said we think there's this opportunity. Let me understand your goals better and maybe there's something that we can do with a campaign to actually go out and help you with your goals, and at the same time raise Wealthsimple's brand awareness with our target market and also acquire new customers.They said one thing that we're really trying to do is get people to use Airbnb for the first time. I think this was in 2015. They were still growing in new markets. We said, okay, cool. Do you have a financial incentive for new customers? They said, yeah. We pay $200 to acquire new customers so we can pay that out.So I said if we were to go out and spend some money on channels and incentivize people to try Airbnb, that would be helpful for you, right? They're like, yeah. And we were able to make this channel. We're able to leverage Airbnb's brand to go to market with an offer to attract people to use Wealthsimple and it became a new Wealthsimple client that got some of that and an Airbnb client. They got some of that Airbnb money deposited directly into their Wealthsimple account. That's an example of an offline partnership that worked really well for us and not only did it work in the direct channel and that there are lots of customers that responded to campaigns that we were able to attribute to that partnership, but also in the mind of the market. We were now hanging with the Airbnb brand and it set the idea that we were an innovative company, a young company, an emerging company that had the same brand DNA as Airbnb, and opened up the floodgates of being able to partner with lots of other organizations in Canada as well.Edward: Sounds to me that there are two parts to that. There was the halo effect or the fact that your brand is getting affiliated with Airbnb, and then there's Airbnb giving you the $200 or whatever you negotiated that you could go and drop into your customer's accounts. But you still need to have a marketing channel now to go and attract that customer. It just makes it easier to make that marketing channel work now, right? Now you have $200 additional monetization for any customer that you attract.Jason: That's right. Now we've got a great concept for a campaign and the question is, how do we want that campaign to live in the world? Most of my campaigns are going to be across multiple channels. There'll be different places that I'm going to share that with the market. The first place that I'm looking to, especially with a partnership like this, is to leverage Airbnb's channels. Now, here's an opportunity for them to also incentivize their followers. Maybe it's an email list of non-converters, maybe it's their social media to go and check out Wealthsimple for this benefit. At the same time, I can also go to the market and put some money behind it. Maybe we'll even co-market it together in the sense that maybe Airbnb will chip in some marketing dollars for me to go and put this on Facebook and retarget some visitors, or put it through a social channel like Twitter in order to get more people, or run an email campaign or something in order to get people to convert. Certainly, there's a bunch of different moving parts here. I love that you brought up that there's the halo effect and there's the direct effect. I think almost all of my campaigns fall into one or the other or a combination of both. Starting with what you think success is going to be on those different dimensions can really help you make sure that the campaign from end-to-end achieves the right objective.Edward: Let's talk a little bit about that. So you're Airbnb, Airbnb has a list now of users that have not converted. What's their incentive to target that list with a Wealthsimple offer versus just saying, hey list of people who haven't converted, we'll give you $200 that you can spend on Amazon. Why partner with you on that deal?Jason: There's a bunch of different ways that the value gets created. One of them is that there is a bit of a quid pro quo when you're negotiating a partnership like this. At the time, our Canada list was a lot bigger than their Canada list. For a brand like them who's trying to build a new market, we're excited to reach their list and they were excited to reach ours. So there is a bit of a trade that happens there and it's a win-win as long as the brands are aligned and customers aren't confused as to why it's happening. You need to create a great story, a little bit of a landing page collateral to make sure that the story's well-articulated. But there are other offline partnerships that were really successful where it's even plainer the benefit. I'll give you an example of a partnership that we did together with Zipcar, Ontario.Zipcar has members and they have a specific member benefits portal. They're always looking for interesting opportunities to put into their member benefits portal that's going to reward Zipcar members in Ontario. That was an easy one where they actually have planned activities to email their entire base about new offers in their members' benefits. They're just looking for the right members' benefits to be there. We were able to approach Zipcar and show them how our audiences would overlap, and we had a really interesting and compelling on-brand offer for them to share with their mailing lists.Edward: How many of these types of partnerships did you have? Between Airbnb and Zipcar, how many of them existed at that scale?Jason: Well, in the beginning, there was the first one. Of course, we found success with them. One of the reasons that we did find early success with them is, as we were growing, we were trying to convince larger brands to use us and to partner with us. We were able to reach wide audiences without typically a cost of acquisition. Now, the cost was the hustle, originality, creativity, and the relationship-building that it takes to make this, but there wasn't an incremental cost to it, which is why we liked it. What happened is as we got bigger, first we expanded the portfolio and then we actually contracted it. The reason that we contracted it is that as we grew bigger, it was no longer so helpful to get dozens of new clients from a channel.It was only really worth our time to get larger ones, so we had to create partnerships with larger organizations that had a broader reach. Now when I think about the partnership opportunities in the landscape for Wealthsimple today, they look a lot more like large telcos, other large financial institutions that maybe aren't related, other consumer retailers like a grocer, gas, or pharmacy that really reach millions and millions of Canadians. That would be an opportunity that would get me excited today, but it just started with members' benefits of Zipcar.Edward: That makes sense because I think initially, if it's quid pro quo, if you have no email list, you don't have anything to offer a really big partner. Then, as you get bigger through leveraging, it's almost a ladder up strategy of starting with smaller partners, use that to get to scale so you can trade for bigger partners.Jason: That's exactly the strategy. What's interesting about this is that there isn't a website that you can go and log into, then just put your credit card down and get these partnerships up and running. These are partnerships that require you to go and meet with real people, create something out of nothing, and you've got to demonstrate and establish trust. You've got to follow through for your partners. You've got to do awesome tracking for them. You've got to make them feel really special. I think to my point I made earlier, they're not easy because there isn't a directory of them to take off. But I think to the point of creating new channels, I think these are the kinds of channels that I love creating. Something that didn't exist before, something that's uniquely your brands and something that's really effective for both sides.Edward: Let's talk about public relations. That was another big channel for you.Jason: It sure was. One of the things that's interesting about public relations or I call it earned media, is that similar to these partnerships, you're not paying cost per acquisition for each customer. Of course, there's an investment that you make in time or if you hire an agency and you can tie it back, but ultimately if you do it well, you're able to get low cost, ongoing inbound traffic. I remember sitting around the table with the early team, and if we would just get a mention on the national news, in Canada, it's the CBC. The phone would start ringing. It was like magic and we didn't pay anything for it. A reporter got us, we reached out to a reporter, and then suddenly we got new clients. It was always exciting to see the traffic volume spike on the website when something as boring as an article in the local newspaper came out. But I think that showed us really early on the power of doing this well.Edward: How did you do it well? PR is one of them, obviously. You can optimize page search to death and there are agencies that can optimize television spend. How do you optimize PR? How do you know you're doing it well? Jason: First we didn't do it well. I think sometimes it takes not doing a channel well first to learn a little bit more about how to do it better. The first thing that we did is we hired a firm that specialized in financial services public relations, to help us with this. I think that playbook was irrelevant to us. We paid them a retainer every month, and every month they've got to get some relationships with the journalists and they go through all their client list. At the end of the day, that wasn't differentiated, it wasn't interesting, and it didn't get us the results that we needed, but we had that early taste even before I think we were working with an agency of what PR could do. So when we set out to do a real earned media campaign, we tried to think a little bit differently. We try to think about a couple of different ways to do it. For example, you can create data and then share that data back with publications. You can capitalize on emerging news trends and then use that to get into the news cycle. There's a whole bunch of different tactics and we would think of interesting and differentiated tactics to do it. I'll give you one of my favorite stories. One of my favorite stories of an earned media tactic that worked really well for us was in Canada, there was a large tech company that had IPOed called Shopify. We, of course, in the wealth management business, love when big tech companies IPO because that means a lot of wealth is typically created. We'd like them to park their wealth with us. During the IPO, it was really hard to cut through the clutter of that news cycle and get earned media for different tech companies' IPO. What we found was there was going to be a different date that was less celebrated and it typically is never celebrated in the media, but it could be, which is the expiry of the IPO lockup period. Not a super sexy date, but nine months after the IPO, that's when the insiders can actually sell. That's when the wealth is realized, not just created. What we did is we created a campaign around the expiry of the lockup period that would educate Shopify employees on how to get a diversified portfolio out of their holdings. We created a little ebook, we made a landing page on our website, and we actually took out a billboard across the street from Shopify so that you could see both the billboard and the Shopify building in the background. We hired a photographer to take the picture, and then we shopped and pitched that story to the media. We said, hey, are you covering the Shopify lock-up period? You should be thinking about what happened nine months ago. Now is the time all this money is liquid. Oh, by the way, here's a photo, a Wealthsimple guide that we've made to help Shopify employees manage their wealth.Can you believe it? Articles were written about the story, we did the journalists' work for them, our photo ran as the photo in the article, and there was a great mention about how companies like Wealthsimple were helping employees at Shopify manage their wealth.Edward: That's fantastic. I believe that there's something to this new way of marketing, which is this combination of PR and paid media. In that example, you use paid media to presumably acquire some Shopify customers but then accelerated with PR.Jason: And the loop doesn't even end there, Ed, because once that's done, you take that article that's being published by reputable news media, then you go and you put some dollars behind it on social media to amplify it even more. That, actually, I think goes beyond that. From there, we actually got some inbound traffic. I believe Toby, the founder and CEO of Shopify, messaged us and said, "Hey, great campaign." That opened the door for us to actually get into Shopify and start managing their employees' retirement plans, which was fantastic and it involved us bringing out our wealth advisors to help manage their employees. I believe for a long time, Shopify was the number one source of clients at Wealthsimple by employer by a large margin, even though they only employed several thousand people, our percentage of Shopify employees using Wealthsimple was astronomical.Edward: If we were to break that particular campaign down into (say) four parts, which was number one, was the billboard and the marketing to get Shopify customers to come on board. Number two is the PR push around that was targeted more broadly and far more than just Shopify customers. Number three was the paid acceleration of number two and then number four, was the enterprise sale effectively that you got to Shopify. Roughly, how much impact did those four things have? Was it 25, 25, 25, 25? What's your best estimate?Jason: I love that you say best estimate because some of those things we can directly track and of course many of those things we can't, but we know they're there. If I were to do my estimates, I actually think the last one, the halo effect we got inside of Shopify's hallways, of them talking about us, of them referring their friends, of them trying us, and then bringing and consulting their wealth with us over the years was so much bigger than the direct effects of (say) having the billboard in the first campaign. I think that the fourth one is only possible if you get number two. So, you need that multiplier. I think if you have that campaign without that endorsement or thought that earned media pick up, I think that would be a failure of the campaign. But once you've got number two that allows you to unlock number three and number four (if you can), it becomes even more successful than you imagined.Edward: If you hadn't got them all, like if you'd only gotten number one or only gotten number two, would it have been ROI positive or would have been negative, and you needed those three and four in order to get it over the top? Jason: They're not really expensive ideas and the truth is, we're talking about one that works for everyone that worked. Of course, there's a whole bunch that don't work and that we don't talk about as guerrilla campaigns or earned media opportunities that didn't work out. But if you look at the direct costs of doing that, we recycled some content. We wrote some original content. We're talking about hundreds of dollars, not thousands of dollars. We chased down that billboard. Hard work especially because we need it on short notice, but we got it. We're talking about single digits, thousands of dollars. We're talking about a campaign that was a few thousand dollars. At the time, if that hadn't worked out, we'd be totally fine. But I think there was an ROI on that that was well beyond the five digits or maybe even six digits on it, so the percentages return on that campaign like that were fantastic.Edward: What does growth hacking mean to you?Jason: I've never described myself as a growth hacker and I don't have a stock definition. But what it makes me feel is that how do we do alternative things to drive the adoption of the product. One of the things it does sort of bring up for me are the viral loops. How do we get the customers that we have today to maybe adopt another product, increase their usage of the product, or tell others themselves about the product, too?Edward: So when you talk about growth hacking at Wealthsimple, is Shopify an example of that or is there something different?Jason: Probably in the broadest sense, but I think in the more narrow sense of how do we have a virality coefficient that supports growth without (for example) creating new campaigns or without (for example) spending money on social channels. That is sort of what growth hacking would mean to me more so. I think we are really lucky at Wealthsimple in that for whatever reason, your wealth advisor and some other financial products do tend to be products that people talk about, and especially if you do them different or better, save people money, and make their life more effective and efficient, you share it with family and friends. For a long time at Wealthsimple and hopefully to this day still, that was the number one way that people found out about us, by referring Wealthsimple to their friends and family.Edward: That's great. Hey, thanks so much for coming on today, Jason. Before we go, tell me about your “quake book”.Jason: My quake book, of course. I'm always thinking about my quake book. What did I tell you my quake book was, Ed? Edward: Fooled by Randomness. Jason: Oh, yes. Are you a fan of Nassim? Edward: Nassim has blocked me on Twitter. Jason: There you go. Well, that's all you need to know. Hopefully, he hasn't blocked you from reading his books, though. What I love about Fooled By Randomness is that sometimes we see patterns where there aren't patterns. Certainly, as an analyst starting my career, all the time I think we talked about things that maybe weren't there, but we hoped were there. I think reading that book is one of the eye-opening opportunities, along with the rest of Nassim's writing, to help you really understand the way the world works and not the way that you hope the world works.Edward: Thank you for that, Jason, and really excited to have you on the show. Jason: Thanks, Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

Welcome to the Recruitment hackers podcast show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talkpush,  the leading recruitment automation platform. Max: Okay. Hello everybody. And welcome to the recruiter hackers podcast by Max Armbruster. And today I'm pleased to welcome on the show the global talent acquisition capability leader at Accenture, Jason Roberts. Welcome Jason. Jason: Thank you. And thank you for saying all of the words in that title. I know it's a lot. Max: Can we mix them around? We can move them.Jason: You got it exactly right and t's a bunch though.  We were just talking and it's a whole lot of words. I'm not sure that it says anything. So, What that means is that I have a pretty fun gig and that I'm responsible for processes and technologies and how we do recruiting for Accenture's customers. And we will do that for large organizations where we hire several hundred thousand people per year.So we get to try out lots of technologies. We have a pretty nice clean standard process that we work from. And I get to, to be a part of that and work with smart people every day. It's good.Max: Yeah. Fantastic. You said a few hundred thousand people every year. And I guess that number is getting bigger than ever now where the industry is kind of figuring out how we're going to get these 30 plus million people back to work in North America and I don't know, it must be hundreds of millions worldwide. So the pressure is on to, to deliver you know, I'm gonna say a good, maybe a decent experience for most of them. Jason: Well, what's interesting is what I worry about with, with COVID is that candidate experience will stop being a priority because candidate experience is a big deal when you've got 3% unemployment and it's necessary in order to, to achieve the hires that you need to achieve. But when there's 25% unemployment or 20% unemployment, you don't need candidate experience, people just need jobs. So it's, it's one of those things where if I'm worried that we might lose ground in the candidate experience side of things. I think we all want to be in a position where we treat people well, and we had started seeing real improvements in that space. And it was because companies were making investments in the right things in order to make it happen.  I'm hoping we get to continue that, but there's a, I think there's a real risk that we'll take a step backwards in that space. Max: Yeah. I've definitely noticed that people are not getting back to candidates as fast as they should be and positions are being kept open even though they're not real. And so it's kinda like candidates sending beautiful offer letters and resumes and hearing nothing back, hearing crickets.On the plus side, the candidate experience is improved by the fact that companies are not defaulting to asking people to come physically in person. And when you consider how time consuming that can be and demanding, that can be, well.. We were meeting in person. It was a lot of work for me. I mean, I had to take a plane to come and meet you. Jason: Well, no, you didn't have to. I was always great with being on video if you want to do that.  I found that suppliers really wanted to meet in person. And I've worked remotely for over a decade, probably 13 years now, something like that, that I've worked remotely. And I was completely good being on phone and people would just would want and meet, man. Okay, well, I'll meet with you. You know I actually had an office for the sole purpose of meeting with suppliers when they came into town. That's the only time I went to the office when I met with somebody that came in town to meet me.Max: I remember that office. It was, it was a, We Work Jason: It was a We Work, We Work, right. That's why I only went there every once in a while. I just, I would reserve a conference room. And I think you, you came back to the actual inner sanctum. You saw the actual office. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I know you have a very cool job with Accenture today and you had a very cool job with Randstad before.  Can you tell for our listeners, give us a quick overview of, where you come from and how you got into this space? Jason: Oh, gosh. Yeah. So I started recruiting, my age will show for sure. 1997. Was my first,  my first piece of recruiting work.I was, I had a person, a friend that I knew... The internet was still pretty new. Right. So,  like I got email for the first time in 1994, I think.  So it was, it was still relatively new and a friend of mine said, Hey, I'm a recruiter. And I, hear you can find things on this internet thing. Can you help me with that? I said, well, yeah, I can help you search the internet. So I became an early sourcer and it was with a staffing firm and,  that sort of, I progressed over a period of time so that, so that ultimately, I, I worked for the staffing firm full time then,  did some consulting then I spent about seven years with Cisco systems and started out as a recruiter. I recruited Sales and sales engineers for them. Ultimately we built our own applicant tracking system back then there were no web based ATS everything was client server. So we thought, okay, well we're the backbone of the internet we should probably have something that's a web based deal. So we built our own and it was my job to be sort of the functional expert on that. And I worked in HR IT for a little while, built my own ATS with Cisco. And that was fun. Max: 2003 ish around that. Jason: Yeah. That's about right before Taleo showed up.Max: Yeah, it must have been frustrating to see the startup Taleo pick up all this business thinking... Jason: Yeah you know what, we built my module and of course dot com bubble burst along the way. And things slowed down a little bit in recruiting. And we built the module that was basically how we take job orders and approve things and we hadn't built a lot of the candidates stuff yet. And Taleo came out and with a few other things there and and we were like, Oh, these things are way better. Let's not build the rest. Let's just find a way to connect to these other deals. And that's what we did. We never finished, we just did the sort of requisition piece. It was called cafe rec, was the tweaks that..Max: Back then recruiting happened mostly in Starbucks. Jason: Well, apparently  that's how it worked. It was a good thing. And, I learned a lot. Along the way, I became a certified project manager and it was great and then I had a boss that told me, you know, I'd become the operations leader for Cisco. And my boss said, you can either have my job, which I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. Or go to a place that does recruiting for a living. And I said, Oh, that's not a bad idea. And I'd outsourced our recruiting along the way. And I was responsible for the relationship between outsource company and Cisco and I played that sort of client side role. So the company that went through the RFP process, they actually told me no, they said, yeah, I don't think we can help you much. What you're trying to do is, is really not exactly the right thing.And there were a hundred percent, right. Like it was the, the worst conceived RFP and a terribly conceived sort of a model that we had designed and the only company that came back and said, this is a bad idea, we're going to bow out. We wish you luck and we'll help you with something else the next time. It was Accenture.I thought, man, that took a lot of integrity to do that. So, when I went to look for a job, they were the first people that I called. And, they made a job for me. So I went to work for Accenture, loved that, did that for six years in various roles. And then went to Randstand Source Right. And I loved Randstand Source Right. That was a good time. I, I went over to lead operations for them. And I did that for a number of years, uh, moved on to the, Senior Vice President of Strategy. Uh, it was Strategy and Standardization because a big part of the strategy was to standardize. Um, so that was that. And then, um, ultimately I ended my run there as Head of Technology and Analytics, uh, around the globe and, uh, Accenture is a funny place, man. It, uh, it calls you back at some point. There's lots of us that are boomerang. So we've come back. That's the role I'm in now I really, um, I really like. I remember the guy who had the role when I was here before and, uh, I loved what he was doing and we where he got to spend his time.So I, when that was open, I said, all right, let's do it. I came back back to Accenture. Max: Now, if you could go, you know, you go back 15 years. Um,  um, would you do what I'm doing and start, uh, an ATS company. I started one in 2008, 2009. I was, I think, a few years too late, uh, on my first run. Jason: You know what? I do look back and think, um, I wish I had been a founder.  I have a lot of respect for the founders that I know. And I look back, I think that quite a bit, um, I was, I had a family very, very young, uh, so, uh, we had our first child. I was in that spot. So the gamble wasn't my gamble. It was the whole family's gamble. So I, I never did it. And if I knew, then what I know now I might have, like, I understand the venture capital space. I understand how that all works. And I did, I was just so clueless back then. I had no idea. Um, but, uh, who knows? I have an idea. Maybe one of these days, I'll get to try it out. I do have and idea.Max: Oh, don't do it. Don't do it, Jason. It's the worst, worst thing that can happen to you. No money. Uh, no, uh, I don't recommend it. Jason: Ok, that's good to know! My other founder friends are like do it, do it today! I'm gonna wait until we're not in a, you know, a crisis.Max: Apparently recessions of the best time to start a business. Jason: Well, you know what a bunch of people that did that, did well doing that.  Max: Yeah. Um, it, it sounds like, uh, throughout your career, while you were not an entrepreneur, you were able to tinker and build things and build toys. Um, and I picked up on the job title you shared with us. You said it was a Standardization in it. That doesn't sound too sexy, but there were also, um, some more creative exercises that you were involved in. Um, you were telling me before we started the video that you, learned about the limits of automation and where the humans were needed in an experiment that you ran a year or two years ago. Um, could, um, could you elaborate on that? Jason: Yeah. Well, we're actually experimenting with that right now, even. Um, so the technology exists to fully automate the recruiting process, especially at the, in the lower level jobs. So think retail, uh, warehouse workers, things where you're not making big decisions on the skills and capabilities, but it's more processing someone through with a very low threshold of qualification. So we call those high volume, low skill. And so for those roles, it's possible to fully automate. There's not a lot of discernment involved that needs to be made, a human doesn't need to make that decision on “Do we hire this person or not?” Everyone is qualified if they hit some basic knockout questions, like, can you lift 50 pounds? Literally, “can you have work boots on your first day?” Um, those are the sorts of things you have to, you have to ask them.  So when that happens, uh, I remember I went to one, one interview center for massive distribution, uh, site, uh, one of the biggest in the world, I think. And, um, There's a building for interviews.And I sat down with a lady who had been interviewing in that building, interviewing candidates every day. Um, for, uh, I think it was six years. She had interviewed candidates every single day. And I said, well, how often do you say no to a candidate? And this lady said, “Oh, I've never said no.”She had never said no. She had interviewed for six years and never said no. So when that's the case, that you don't need the interview anymore, right. That discern was done necessary. So we tried this with a fully automated process. And what we learned is these sorts of roles. You always, you have dropout rates at certain points. You know, you're going to have a certain percent that fail the drug screen, way more than you would think if you do white collar work. You hear the failure rate, it would surprise you if that's all you've ever done. Um, But there's a failure rate of drug screen, you know, you're going to have, and then there's a certain number of people that just won't ever show up for the job.And, um, what we learned when we fully automated is we could get people all the way through the process up until the day they're supposed to start and they just didn't show up. They didn't think it was real. Some of them would get nervous when filling out the background, check paperwork, thinking it might be a scam because they're asked for, you know, personal information, social security, and so forth, even though it was from a reputable company, they're worried that it's a scam. So in order to ground the position, we are experimenting with the right place to insert a human contact. So where do you insert a phone call to ground this, to be that it's a real position, a real job for someone? Not because you need to say yes or no, but because they need human contact to feel good about the job.Max: Well, that's what the lady was doing for six years, right? It was, uh, she wasn't saying no, but she was saying here's, here's a human contact. Jason: That's it exactly right. That's what she was doing all the time. Max: Uh, yeah, I I'd like to insert more video in the process where you know, that human contact could be, Hey, check it out You know, here's the, the warehouse where you'll be working. You know, do a little phon, recording, and say, we can't wait to see you on Monday. And that, little video can be, it can feel personal, but it could be actually general, you know, you could send it to everybody. Jason: Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're exactly right. And we're seeing more of that. In fact, we're seeing, um, seeing a shift to video interviews for certain, um, a lot of companies are just using zoom or Skype or not Skype, but Microsoft teams, the Skype, Skype got replaced, uh, Google meets for some, but they're, they're using sort of their conferencing platforms to do that instead of, uh, instead of the the formal sort of modern, higher and higher and things.  But it's a little bit broken, right? When they do that, because they don't have the formal scoring, they don't have, they don't have the staff, the they're not able to what's happening like the candidate, your platform. Um, they it's, it's not as strong of a solution.Um, so I was talking at one point with, uh, With one of the founders of another one of these companies. And they said, they said we're running into companies that have sort of the scrappy solution. And  they're using zoom. And then the ones that are, that were prepared for something like this, um, the adoption rate just skyrocketed.So people, cause video, I always had trouble getting people to use it and getting people to actually lean into it because you still have to review the videos. But once we, um, once we hit this pandemic, everybody seems way more comfortable or, you know, it's become a necessity in their world at least.And they're accustomed to it. Max: Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've done a lot of zoom and team integrations and then, um, have the live video call asynchronous video. Um, I still, I'm still a luxury for, a lot of positions they're more interested in getting people through binary, you know, outcomes or multiple choice questions and getting them to move to a human interview through a phone call. Um, and also still a lot of markets where asking people to log in for a zoom call would be too, um,  demanding on the bandwidth. So they do phone calls instead. And, uh, you know. Jason: Well you're, in markets that where that's a significant challenge. Right? But you guys have WhatsApp integration, correct? Max: Yes. Yes. WhatsApp integration allows for collecting video, but asynchronously, you wouldn't be able to do a live video call connected through the business API. You can do it person to person, in the consumer market, but it's not yet supported for businesses. Unfortunately. Uh, same way that, uh, Facebook picture, you know, otherwise. Yeah. I mean, all those companies, whether you're, you're an ATS and CRM, um, uh, social media or a communication platform, you all have video now and everybody has it and everybody can switch it on and it's relatively cost free. So I don't understand how the Highervues of the world are going to stay in business if their story is we're good on video. So is everybody else.Jason: Yeah, that's true. No, it's true. Max: Yeah. Um, Very commoditized. Jason:I thought they needed to do something different. Um, but yeah, we're we are seeing more video. Um, SMS is big for us in the US um, of course, different mediums elsewhere as well. So, uh, we're seeing a lot of that shift as well.Max: The, um, uh, continuing on what we were talking about, the lady, um, that says yes. Um,  um, do you think her job will still be around in, uh, in 10 years time? Or do you think that, uh, eventually, you know, um, we can go to a full automated process with no human contact. Jason: Um, I think probably not. I think probably her role probably doesn't exist the way it is. What I think we'll end up with is, you know, instead of a 40 minute actually interview candidates were scheduled for an hour, an hour time slot to come in and do your interview. I think we're going to have 10 minutes, um, basically, uh, uh, Welcome calls. They're their introductions. We're welcoming them to the company. “Oh yeah we're ready to make you this offer. It's already been sent to you. Welcome to the welcome home. And here's your, here's all the stuff you need to know. Here's where you show up what you do” but it's a 10 minute make somebody feel good call, um, and not an interview. Max: Yeah, that's a big productivity gain potentially there.Um, and I've seen, uh, for, uh, some people doing group interviews as well. Because then you have that human factor, uh, you know, you were saying, is it real? Well I mean, there's 10 other people logging into the call and I can see their faces and it's probably real. Jason: Yeah, I saw I was, um, there's, uh,  uh, one of the big online retailers, uh, they were doing this thing where they would do a drug swab. This was years ago. This is before I came back to Accenture. Um, they were doing a drug swab. Yeah, as a part of their interview process. So they would have these massive hiring events. They still do it right now, I think. And, um, basically you go, you sit down, you watch a video about working at this, at this place.If you're good with it, um, they have like a long Q-tip. You swab your cheek, it's a drug test. You put it back in the package, you seal it up. You sign an offer letter and you're done, like, that's it. That is the whole, that is the whole process you've been processed and the way that they were paying their suppliers was based on the number of return offer letters and, uh, drug screens that they got.Max: Wow. Well, I mean, I just had to do my first swab, uh, coming into Hong Kong  to check, they were checking for my coronavirus. Uh, yeah. Um, but that uh,  sounds brutal. And I guess these drug tests have had to, I mean, those are private enterprises can ask whatever they want. Right. it's they can decide what drug tests they ask. There's no, restrictions on state law or anything like that. Jason: No, it's strange. You'll have more stringent drug screening requirements for Businesses than the States in which people live. Yeah. So there might be a state where marijuana is legalized, for example, but it's not legal for the drug screen.Well, tell that to the, you know, 18 year old warehouse worker that they're interviewing for those warehouse job, you know, they're really just picking up boxes. They've been moving them from point A to point B. And I'm not sure that whether or not they smoked it makes much difference in that, but that's there oftentimes there's rules that say, yeah, you can't hire themMax: After a stressful day of carrying boxes.Jason: It may be, I don't know, but it's, there are these more stringent things, but if it's legal in your state is if it's legal where you are, I guess nine, 18 year old, usually usual is 21. So 21 year old warehouse worker, I guess she could have a problem. You could, you, it's not as big of a deal in my mind, but the 18 year old, shame on them, they should wait till 21 based on that wall.Max: It should be the other way around. Absolutely. We should have a world where it's illegal in the state, but it's legal as soon as you come inside the company. You know,  Basically an office where we only accept people here who smoke cigarettes all day long. Jason: So you joke, but, um, one of the big tobacco companies I did work with years and years and years ago, um, And the first time I walked in there, I saw the ashtrays on the desks, the whole thing.So, yeah, I don't know if they still do that, but this was way back when. But yeah, it's the only company I ever walked into with ashtrays on the desk, because that had sort of gone by the time I made it into this line of work. Max: Yeah. Well uh, I've experienced that as well.  I've had business meetings with cigarettes, um, in Asia. So  it does feel, uh, like you're, traveling in time when that happens. Jason: Well, I've had business meetings with cigars.  That's a different story. Max: Yes. Yes. I don't get invited to those then. Okay. Um, before we wrap it up, Jason: Max I'm pretty sure that i invited you to one at some point along the way.Max: With cigars? Jason: Yeah. I'm pretty sure along the way. Maybe when we were in San Francisco, but I don't know. Max: Oh, I missed it. Well, okay. Talking about the, uh, the current events and where you see the market going a few months ago when, uh, the world uh, was collapsing. You, told me that the RPO industry had rebounded strongly in 2008 and 2009 and had its best run right afterwards and gave me some hope for your industry, our industry. Uh, coming out of the coronavirus pandemic, um, um, has your, um, yeah.  Are you on track with your predictions or, um, or you, uh, surprised with, uh, the pace of the slowness of the recovery, I guess, um, how do you anticipate the next few months will pan out for people in staffing and in the RPO world in particular?Jason: Um, so yeah, uh, I don't know what the starting point of the sort of rebound is. Right? So coming out of the 2008 slowdown, um, 2009, when companies started bringing you back. Uh, employees, um, the recruiters came back first, right. And, uh, when the recruiters came back, the ramp began very quickly. And a lot of times they said, okay, well, let's bring people back, but via outsourcing. That's why outsourcing grew so much at that time. What's difficult about this one is we're not yet at the place where I think we're ready for the rebound. I think  um, we're still sort of in the low point. Uh, and we're, nobody's really sure when, we sort of swing out of this thing, I'm confident that we will, right?I'm confident that yeah. Eventually everybody gets to take off their mask and go back to their jobs. And there are some hurdles that have to be reached along the way for that to happen. So I'm confident that the world will go back to what we were accustomed to one day. Um, but it's not something that happens, you know, in three months or four months, it's something that happens, uh, over a long period of time.Max: There's a cycle to recruitment. And normally, you know, end of the summer, everybody gets ready for the big shopping push towards the end of the year. Jason: October. Yeah. Max: Yeah. So now is when people need to, normally when they start ramping up and start you know, setting up the machine. You're saying well, maybe it's taken a little longer this time.Jason: Well, what's funny is the online machine is ramping like you wouldn't believe. So the people who do your online shopping through, and then who fulfill those orders on the back end. Yeah. That that's going strong. It hasn't slowed down. In fact, um, It's where we're seeing the most competition for workers, uh, warehouse workers are right now.Like it's like a software developers and Silicon Valley in the early two thousands. Max: No, I don't know if I want to go into a, you know, carrying boxes or data science. Jason: Seriously. What I think is going to happen is those wages are going to start increasing really significantly. Much to the chagrin of my customer base, but they, I think that, um, you know, we're, we're being asked in some cases to monitor, um, uh, to monitor salaries or offers like what the, the offer that people are making to candidates on a daily basis. Because Amazon, when you drive past has billboards that say I'm offering X number of dollars per hour and they change. And sometimes they'll change uh, there'll be a different number when you go into the office from versus when you come back and yeah. Yeah. If that's how fast this, this thing is moving and it's not going down, it's all going up. Uh, and the reason that we think that is that, um, These jobs used to be the jobs that were, you know, the next level, they were the good paying jobs. If you didn't have an education necessarily, um, but uh, you wanted something that could actually pay your bills. Um, it's sort of the, the first job that was able to do that most of the time, um, you know, just above you would see the grocery stores and things paid just above minimum wage. And these jobs were always several dollars per hour or more.What's happened is Target, Amazon, even Walmart now have pushed that based salary up to, you know, if anyone wages somewhere in the eight or $9 range, they've pushed to 13 or 14, a minimum wage, the California minimum wage, I think through the end of this year, end of next year. Uh, it will be $14, right? Max: So they as high as high as, as a logistics or, yeah.Jason: Right. So it's, it's now you can, you can either, you can either work in a really, uh, challenging environment in a warehouse where you're lifting things a bunch and you're, um, it may, it's probably climate controlled. They've all added climate control, but there's these big Bay doors. So where the trucks have to pull in. So, uh, it's you can't get that completely cool or, uh, completely warm in the winter time. Um, so you've always got to deal with the weather to some degree when that, when that happens, you can't have total climate control. So you've got those jobs that are uncomfortable and require more physical activity versus, you know, the, the grocery store chain, the, uh, big box retailer, those, those other ones paying the same amount of money. So all those people that have to work with your packages from the Amazon people who have to load them to the, uh, delivery drivers, to the, uh, uh, you know, the UPS guy, whoever, um, all of those, workers, um, they're in great demand. Cause there's more, we need more of them, but their salaries are deeply compressed because of what's happened with all of the retail salaries. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I'm, um, you know, from an economic standpoint, I think increasing minimal wages, does uh, accelerate the pace of automation and ultimately, um, force companies to automate more. Uh, so that's probably the response as well as, you know, um, in the short term an increase in, uh, and paper hour, but we know that, um, it's going to drive more automation and will eventually, potentially cost a few jobs. Uh, but if those are the hard jobs, um, that may not be such a bad outcome, it's just that, as you were saying if you have no education, um, and you need to pay the bill, those jobs are very precious. So I don't know. Um, I'm not, uh, a policy guy, but, uh, um, it sounds like you're in the right market. Even though you're fighting some, uh, difficult trends. Jason: It's fascinating, right. If it were easy, the clients wouldn't call us to help. Right? They'd be able to do this themselves. Max: So many times after eight hours in front of my webcam I'm like, Oh man, I wish I was outside doing physical work and I always thought that that would be like a good employee branding employer value proposition. Come in to work in our warehouse and check out, our guns, you know?Jason: You know what you need to do? You need to go, and I don't know about tha EVP, but the next time you feel that way, go dig a ditch and see how you feel afterwards. Because one time I at one  was hiring people who would bury the lines for the phone company and they literally were ditch diggers and I could not think of a worst gig. And they, uh, so every time I, when I look at this, I think. I could be doing that job. That would be terrible. Yeah, it's exhausting by the way. Max: I, uh, when I was, uh, 16 years old, I had a chance to go work in, um, an, a modeling agency to just to do intern work. But then my mother insisted, I go instead, go work in our plastic factory so that I would understand the cost of physical labor. And so  I did end up going to school afterwards and pursuing an education. Jason: Wow, How old were you when you could go to the modeling agency? Max: 16. Yeah, peak of my purity. Jason: At that age. I think, I think your mom might not have done the right thing. Max: Um, I'm pretty sure she will not be listening to our conversation, but, uh, if you are, I'm still so grateful for, uh, for your choice, mom, and I'm very grateful for your time, Jason. Today and in previous conversations, helping, helping me understand the macro trends and the limits of automation. Uh, thank you very much for joining us today, uh, on this podcast and looking forward to our next chat. Jason: Happy to do it. Thanks. Max: A treat talking to Jason Roberts from Accenture and, and learning about the new dynamics of the marketplace currently shaping, uh, North America with the pickers and the people working in logistics in higher demand than the engineers of the Silicon Valley.Who would have guessed? And if, uh, if you liked this interview, please subscribe for more on recruitment hackers, podcast, and share with your friends. Hope to see you here again soon.

The World Famous Insurance Dudes chat with Mathisen Bros.Dudespeak:Mr. Craig - Another Barn-Burner in the Books!!! Some people say, “Don’t bother with the sequel,” but when it comes to Back to the Future or the Mathisen Brothers, you’ll be accelerating to 88 quicker than you can say, “Huey Lewis.” These two not only grew their agency to $100 million in premium in less than a decade without purchasing any leads, they also launched a company to service independent agents solve their challenges with a unique insuretech software service. Just like the first time, they were full of energy and ready to share the HOW of scaling. Make sure to check the Episode notes for the Deck on how to scale your agency.Mr. Jason- Oh boy! The Mathisen Bros crank out some gold this week! Growth week is blown up da house! I can’t believe they gave us a present to give all the Insurance Dudes and Dudettes that we are dropping in our Facebook Group on Wednesday!!! I love hearing how these dudes scaled their business and the tips and secrets they have gotten from all the agents as they scale their new business. Let’s dive into this week!Download the Presentation Deck We Talk About HEREApple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher | iHeart | Listen NotesWanna Get Fresh Episodes and Check out the Dudesletter? We drop it weekly and keep you up to date on the insurance biz: >>> DUDESLETTER CLICK HERE>>>Order now!

I sat down with world-renowned vegan chef and author Jason Wyrick who has co-authored a NY Times Bestseller "21 Day Weight Loss Kickstart" as well as the book "Powerfoods for the Brain" with Dr. Neal Barnard, MD. Other books he has written are "Vegan Tacos" and "Vegan Mexico". He was the food editor for "Living the Farm Sanctuary Life" with Gene Baur and Gene Stone. He's a coauthor of "Clean Protein" with Kathy Freston and Bruce Friedrich. Jason has published the world's first vegan food magazine, The Vegan Culinary Experience which is now defunct and has been featured in the NY Times, the LA Times, VegNews, and Vegetarian Times. He has traveled the world teaching cooking classes and is the first vegan instructor to teach in the prestigious Le Cordon Bleu program. We talk about being vegan, health benefits, dairy, cheese, his home delivery service of amazing vegan food called The Vegan Taste and his restaurant Casa Terra. Jason gives us such a great insight of his progression of eating like most of the population to becoming a vegetarian and finally a full out vegan. It was such an honor for me, to have such a celebrated chef and author on my show. Because I've eaten his food, this conversation had so much more of a meaning due to my various attempts of being vegan myself. I hope you enjoy this conversation and the knowledge Jason shares with us all from his heart. Jason Wyrick: Vegan Food Delivery Service: The Vegan Taste Vegan Restaurant: Casa Terra Co-authored a NY Times Bestseller: "21-Day Weight Loss Kickstart" and "Powerfoods for the Brain" with Dr. Neal Barnard, MD. Other books he has written are "Vegan Tacos" and "Vegan Mexico"He was the food editor for "Living the Farm Sanctuary Life" with Gene Baur and Gene Stone. He's a coauthor of "Clean Protein" with Kathy Freston and Bruce Friedrich. Connect with Jason: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/thevegantaste/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jason.wyrick.5 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/casaterrarestaurant Twitter: https://twitter.com/VeganChefJason https://youtu.be/6jzSCBvX7PA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Jason Wyrick: Joe: All right, welcome, Chef Jason Wyrick, this has been a long time coming for me. I have looked forward to interviewing you the moment I tasted the food that was delivered to my house. So here we are and I'm so excited to have you on the podcast and I really appreciate the time and you actually saying yes to me, so thank you so much and welcome! Jason: Well, you're welcome, I appreciate you having me on here. Joe: Yeah man this is a, the way this came about for me was I got a flyer in the mail and it was one of those things like come to this free, healthy dinner to hear some, I don't know, some sort of talk about healthy eating and nutrition. And it happened to be from a nutritionist, a company in town, like an office in town. And I went and then I, I got pulled into it, you know. The food we had was great, but it wasn't necessarily vegan, it was just healthy. But then when I got into the program, which was not cheap by the way, but I felt I was worth it. They started to say, you know, do all this blood work and then we found out my, I knew my cholesterol is always a little high. So their program is doing vegan for 30 days on their menu. And then from there, you, you know, you the hope is you stay with it or you alter it a little bit or whatever, so that's how I got into this. And the problem for me was I literally was so busy I did not have the time to prep my food. It was taking me like half days on Saturdays, half days on Sundays. And I was like, my weekend is shot and I've prepped all this food and, and I, you know, any small amount of time I had was gone. So then I really went on the hunt for trying to find healthy vegan food that I could just literally eat and not do anything with. I had already done, I think I did Sun Basket a while back. You know, all the food prep things that you know Jason: Right. Joe: of and we talk about. So that's how you and I got connected. I, I don't even know how I ended up finding you. I say it was just purely, I was so desperate doing a Google search and I found you and I was like, SOLD! You mean I can just heat it and eat it, right? That's that's your thing, it's just heart and eat. So here we are. So I want to start from wherever you want to start. I know that this was a health thing for you in combination of other things. But knowing the stories that I've read and interviews I've seen of you, that this came about more for a health reason initially for you. And then it just blew up from there and and it became your passion, which is really cool to me, because this is what I preach on this show and on my videos, is that I want people to live or fulfilled lives doing what they love. And it's cool that you went into that direction knowing some of your past, which you can talk about om how this all started for you. So take Jason: I'm Joe: It away! Jason: Sure it was a kind of a winding journey, I think I mean, it, it seems kind of straightforward when you look at it. I was unhealthy, I went vegan, I got my health back. Hurray! But that's, that's really not how it started, I mean. It's starts when I'm a little kid because, I think I didn't eat great, but I didn't eat bad for the kind of regular American diet. Which meant, you know, my mom cooked some of the meals and occasionally ordered out and I played sports all the time, I was always active. So I was a super healthy rail thin kid. And then as I got older, towards the end of high school and in college, I kept eating the same way I had been eating the last few years and last few years had changed because my mom went to work, she got busier and so our food choices changed to, "What, which one of these seven different chicken dishes do you want tonight that I know how to make? or would you like Taco Bell or Burger King or Pizza Hut or something like that?" So when I stopped playing sports all the time and was super active, the calorie and taken and honestly, like the terrible food I was eating, started to catch up with me. And so I, I probably put on 30 pounds from when I was 16 to probably 19 and just kept going up about 10 pounds a year from there. Jason: So I was already getting overweight. And then right at the end to college, I started learning how to cook. So I went to, I went to this really great Egyptian restaurant in Fort Worth where I went to college, had the ah this amazing meal with the first amazing meal I'd ever had. And I was like, "I want to learn how to eat like this!" And I'm broke because I'm in college. So I started to learn how to cook for myself. And then right after that, it was like two months after that, I went vegetarian and that was solely for ethical reasons. No real idea of the health impact or anything like that, that it has. I didn't care at the time, I was just going to keep eating food that was super tasty and not worry about the health part. So, of course, even going vegetarian, a couple gaining weight. In fact, I was kind of a stupid vegetarian, I'll just be blunt about it. I took the meat I was eating and I replaced it with blocks of cheese. So instead of these instead of like these super fatty steak fajitas loaded with sour cream and cheese that I was eating before. Now I was eating cheese lover's pizza from Pizza Hut and the additional topping was extra cheese. Exactly! [laughter] Joe: [laughter] Jason: And that was that was my dinner. I was with someone at the time, she had her own pizza. It was it was terrible. And so I became incredibly overweight. I weighed about 330 pounds and I got type two diabetes by the time I was in my mid 20s. And I was, I was faced with having to take insulin for the rest of my life and in basically starting to deteriorate even more. Like I was already deteriorating, my eyesight sucked, sleeping 10 to 12 hours a day. Everything you can think of with Type two diabetes was going wrong with me. So I was facing having to take medication and deteriorate for the rest of my life, which was probably not going to be that long at this point or changed my diet. And so it's, it's funny because I was, I've been vegetarian for five years and I had, I had heard of vegans, but I didn't really know what they were. And I even made fun of it a little bit.[laughter] Joe: Right. Right. Jason: This was back in the late 90s. And then all of a sudden it's 2001 and I'm faced with having to make this choice, do I do I give up this food that I love, which is cheese, and live a better life or just keep going with the cheese and and it's funny because even though it it sounds like a no brainer, like eat cheese and die or give up cheese and regain your health. I mean, it sounds like an obvious choice, but there is so much there's so much pain involved in a lifestyle change, that the stress of that was really bad in itself and, and going vegan in 2001 when really no one else around me was, was vegan. It meant I had to learn how to cook, I had to learn how to fend for myself, I had to completely change all these foods that I knew how to make and eat when I was growing up. And so it was super stressful at first. And so I relaxed a little bit and decided I was going to give myself a cheat day. So I was going to be a cheating vegan once a week. So every Wednesday night I'd go out and I get all you can eat enchiladas at my favorite Mexican restaurant and they bring them out in pairs they'll bring you two enchiladas at a time. And the first time I went in there, the waiter was like, "OK, yeah, whatever, it cool! He brings out enchiladas, except I eat 14 of them. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Jason: And then they come back the next week and all of a sudden the waiter's like, "Hmmmmm" because I need another 14 enchiladas. So by the third week, the waiters like "I hate you but I have to serve you anyway." Joe: You're like the, you're like that all you can eat buffet, crab, Jason: Right. [laughter] Joe: Leg guy. [laughter] Jason: It's it's probably familial in some way because I know my, my little brother would go to a Mongolian stir fry places and he take the bowl and see how much he could pack in the bowl because it was one pass through. And so he'd, he'd have the regular bowl and it only come up like three inches and then there was like the six inch pile of stuff on top Joe: Oh, Jason: Of the. [laughter] Joe: My gosh. It's. Jason: So there must be something familial about that, that buffet all you can eat thing. I, so I, but anyway, the point is, I, I did that for a few months and even then I managed to start losing weight and my symptoms went away. So I'd be vegan for the entire week, except for this one, one rather egregious cheat meal but it was still just one meal. And then it went to once every other week when I would go to this place. And then once a month. And then I remember the last time I purposely had went to this place in order cheese that I order in the enchiladas and I, it was a weird experience because I looked at them and I realized they didn't taste good to me anymore. They didn't have that, that feeling you get when you cheese that Homer Simpson like, "dooonnuuttt" like when you eat dairy, so I didn't have that anymore. They didn't taste good and I realized I was ordering them out of habit and not because I actually wanted them. So I didn't even eat the enchiladas, I pushed them away, paid the waiter, who probably sighed relief Joe: Right. Jason: that I was getting had their there and that was the last time I ever stepped foot in that place. And at that point, I was a full on vegan, which took me about eight months. And it also coincided with me completely getting rid of diabetes. Jason: And Joe: Incredible! Jason: After the first year, I dropped about 60 pounds and then when I added in some real exercise, I dropped another 60, so I dropped about 120 pounds over two years. Joe: That's incredible. And I think Jason: Yeah. Joe: What people need to understand about you, you're a big guy. Like I know Jason: Yeah. Joe: from the interviews and stuff, 6' 3", right? Yeah, I mean, that's you know, and and I think at one point you said you, you went to school and lived in San Antonio...Fort Worth, sorry. So you're like in steak town. Jason: Yeah, I mean, Joe: Right. Jason: The nickname of Fort Worth is Cowtown. Joe: Yeah, ok, so there you go! Yeah, so that must, the be, that must be hard. It's just the stigmatism with, you know, vegan and yoga and all of those kind Jason: Ok. Joe: Of things. Right. It's tough. Jason: It depends. OK, it was weird because Texas is really interesting. I mean, I grew up here in Arizona but my dad is Texan. And so I was already pretty familiar with Texas before I actually moved there for school and stayed there afterwards. And Texas has this reputation of being big and boisterous and rednecky and it is. But it also has has this huge liberal side and has this huge health side, has this huge vegan side to it. I mean, I remember when I was in college, I went to the Texas Vegetarian Chili Cookoff. And this was in the mid 90s and it was like this huge gathering of people from all over Texas doing this Chili Cookoff. Like Texas had one of the biggest vegetarian societies in the 90s, at least when I was there participating in that stuff. And so Texas is just this really cool mix of all these different things, religion and Atheism and big hair money and rebel activists and steak eaters and vegans and no one is quiet about it. Maybe that's the one thing about Texans is, you know, everybody kind of gets by in the big city but they're, they're friendly but boisterous about that stuff, which makes it really cool. Anyway, that's my tangent on Texas. Joe: No, but that's great, because it's exactly you, you saying that is exactly how it educates people to know that it's not just big hats and boisterous voices and steak and whatever, it's, I had no idea that you would think that long ago people were vegan in the state of Texas. Jason: I mean, I think, I think Fort Worth had one of the first vegan restaurants in the country, which was Spiral Diner that opened up in 2001. Joe: Yes, I don't think anybody would ever know that. So that's, that's cool. So the tangent was great. OK, so you are, this is what year now that you go full vegan? Jason: So that was the, I started the beginning in 2001 and then I was full vegan by the end of 2001. Joe: Got it. Jason: And I think, I think I might be more like a lot of other people with this, like I've, you know, I've written books with a lot of the vegan doctors and usually their message is that's all or nothing proposition. You go from zero to 60. And from a physiological standpoint, you're going to regain your health really fast that way. But if you're miserable doing it, chances are you're going to quit out. And so I think for a lot of people transitioning, as long as they have it in their mind that it is a transition, it makes it easier for people. So that's that's what I did. It took me it took me about eight months to fully transition over. And I tried to zero to 60 approach for Joe: Right. Jason: three weeks, and it, I was miserable. Joe: Yeah, and for me, the 30 day thing I did not find hard, the part I found hard about it was the meal prep and that's literally what was difficult for me. And I even heard you in some other interviews, the good thing that we have going for us these days is that it's, it's much more accepted in the world. And when you go out to a restaurant, there are options that would have never been there 10 years ago. Jason: Yeah, there are plenty of options, Joe: Right. Jason: Which has made it an interesting landscape for vegan businesses. Because I think in the past, vegan's gravitated towards vegan businesses because that was their only choice. And now at least in the Phoenix area, vegan businesses are just one amongst a bunch of other vegan options. Joe: Right, but I think the key and the reason I was so excited to have you on is what helped me get through the, the, the next 30 days that they asked me to do because they could see that my cholesterol was dropping. So Jason: Great! Joe: They were like, will you, "Are you willing to buy into doing it another 30 days? And towards the middle or end of the first, as I think when I came across your website and then it was easier for me to say yes, because I literally just could not afford the time to prep. Jason: Right. Right. Joe: But but besides that, the biggest thing for me was the taste. And I don't know, like this could be a trademark or something that I'm saying, but I didn't know vegan food could taste so good, and you can still Jason: No it's true, Joe: if you want. If it's not taken by somebody, it's all yours. But, yeah, that's what it was for me, man. When I first dug into it and the way I worked with you was that I wanted it spicy, which you were all down for. I think even when I, I got from my doctor what I needed to do, he said, OK, well, if you're gonna get this food from The Vegan Taste, just make sure, ask them if it's low and oil, right?. And it so... Joe: It everything was a yes. Like all, you know, that was when I wrote to you, Yes, you know, it's either low or minimal oil or no oil. And I can get it the way I like it, so you made it spicy, which is the way you said you liked it in email. Jason: Right. Joe: So it was like the perfect marriage. I was like sold! Jason: Yeah, I think that's, that's the key to getting people to make a change. It's about honestly, I think it's like about the in the environment that you put people in. So I know Dan Buettner, who wrote the Blue Zones by it. And one of the things that he told me that really impacted the way I thought about food and getting food to people and the way we treat people, is that the the biggest determinant for someone making choices that let them live a long time was not their willpower, was not a doctor's prescription or anything like that, it was the environment in which they lived. And so if the choices were easy to make, to go out and exercise, statistically speaking, more people would go out and exercise...that way. And so to me, food is part of the environment that you're in. And so the easier I can make it on someone to make a better choice for themselves, the bigger chance they are they're going to have to actually make that choice. And so for me, that's putting ready to eat meals in front of someone that's going to make them happy. Joe: Yeah. Jason: The less you have to worry about it, the easier it is for you to be healthy. Joe: Yeah, it's it was so nice to find the website. It was that, I could hear that sound when the heavens open, I was like "Thank you!". It's the only thing that's gonna keep me on track. Now, you know, before, before we get too deep into this, I'm not full vegan. Since doing nutrition program, I've cut out a lot of, like I would use, I would snack before dinner. I'd be so hungry I'd come home at four o'clock, whatever, and I'd pull out the the block of cheddar cheese and some Triscuits and, you know, just take the edge off. I, I stopped doing that a lot more than I use, you know, it's, it's cut way back to almost minimal, you know, to none. I don't drink, I used to drink half and half of my coffee and now all I use is either oat milk or almond milk. So I've completely switched over to that type of stuff. So while we're on the subject of, of, you know, how this has helped you, why do you think dairy is so bad? Is it just that it's like, was it not meant to be eaten or drank? Is it just like we've created this product that should not have existed? Jason: I think so. I mean, dairy's primary uses to grow a baby. And so you're you're consuming something that's meant to grow another being and as, as adults, we're not, I don't think we're supposed to be consuming foods that are continue endlessly making us grow to that scale. Like I have a five year old daughter, I watch how much she eats and sometimes as much as I do, because she, she's always out there running around and she's, like I look at her in a week later, she's taller and I'm like, oh, my God! And so calorically dense foods are good for her, I mean, that's why human mothers breastfeed and you know, all this other stuff. But then when you stop growing and you keep eating those foods, you're consuming growth hormone and all this other stuff that I don't think we're meant to be consuming. And then, you know, there are a couple other issues that go with it, which it turns out casein, which is the protein in milk seems to be carcinogenic, even, even in that milks appropriate species after their weaning, it seems it seems like the incidence of cancer goes up in that species if they continue to consume milk even from their own species after they're supposed to stop drinking it. And then, I mean, look at us where we're drinking stuff that's meant to grow a baby cow into this big monster cow compared to humans I mean a cow is pretty heavy. Jason: So, you know, there's, there's that it's, it's loaded with fat and it's all if you have cheese, it's all condensed down into this calorically dense product with all these other, all these other ingredients into it that are probably not meant for us to just get fuel. And it's all like if you take milk, milk is this big volume, take cheese and it comes down to  this little thing, all that condensed down. It's like a black hole of food. And then you're you're eating that, so, of course, no wonder you're you're getting fat, you're having arteriosclerosis as you age and all these other problems. So that's why I think the health problem is with dairy. From, from an evolutionary standpoint, it's was a good thing because you could have this nutrient dense food even in times of famine. That's, that was one of the benefits of cheese because cheese was basically shelf stable in a long period of human history when we didn't really have very many shelf stable foods, the same way that after a fashion beer, a shelf stable, just one of the reasons that beer was traded there and there are all these ways to preserve foods during times of famine and we just don't live in that anymore. Joe: Right. So on the dairy part of this, what I guess people have a hard time thinking of how they would substitute a cheese for these recipes, and I know that in you know, you have this enchilada recipe and you, there's I mean, you have a ton of different recipes. What are just some off the top of your head, some substitutes that you do use for cheese? Like, how would someone make a pizza? What would they put on it as their cheese? Jason: You know, it depends. There are a lot of nondairy commercial cheeses out there. I think from a health standpoint, they're good insofar as you're not getting casein and all these hormones that go with it, but I can't pretend that they are health food. Joe: Right. Jason: I mean, it's base, it's like cheese is solidified fat when it's dairy and the non vegan cheeses are still a solidified fat. They just have all the other junk that goes with them. So, you know, if you if you limit that look, if you're going to have a pizza and you have it once a week and you put some vegan cheese that's made out of almonds or cashews or something like that on it, you're going to be OK. If you do that every single day, you're not going to be so OK anymore. You can still be a junk food vegan. In fact, it's easier now to be a junk food vegan than it is to be a healthy vegan, because you can run over to Carl's Jr. and get a Beyond burger, that's, you know, still loaded up with all this fat and it's still a burger where as when I went vegan almost 20 years ago, if I was craving a burger, I had to make it myself. Joe: All right. Yeah, I mean, the creativity Jason: So that's. Joe: That, that you have to come up with for these recipes must be daunting. Jason: I sometimes, but only because when I do a lot of recipes, Joe: Right. Jason: I mean most, most chefs at a restaurant might do 30 recipes throughout the year. If they're really pushing themselves. I think with the delivery service, we're doing 300. Joe: WOW! Jason: Every, every year, at each year, it's different too. Joe: Ok. So you're rotating 300 recipes a year from The Vegan Taste. Jason: And we're just making about as we cook every week. Joe: It's amazing! Jason: Yeah, it's, it's, it's daunting, but it's cool. Joe: Yeah, it's. Jason: Yeah, I mean, and like back to the cheese thing, sometimes it's replacing that, that fatty mouthful, mouthfeel that cheese gives you so you can even use something like an avocado or you can use, what are my favorites is this thing called pipián verde, which is just this ah pepitas and tomatillo puree. It's it's a classic Mexican dip and I'll just use that on enchiladas or we'll make our own cheese at the restaurant, sometimes we'll make it just out of almonds and some other ingredients and we'll make our own queso fresco like that and we make our own mozzarellas and stuff. That's a little laborious, I think, for the for the home cook, it's just getting that, that creamy texture which you can get from nuts and seeds. Joe: Right. Yeah. Because even on the recipes at Casa Terra, your restaurant, I saw that there was I think you have is it brick oven pizzas or just... Jason: Yeah, Joe: Or Jason: We have worked fire Joe: Wood Jason: With Joe: Fire. Jason: Fire pizzas Joe: Right. Sorry. Wood fire. Yeah. And so and I did see one of the recipes are one of the descriptions of the you know, the pizza said mozzarella. So I was like, OK, how does he doing that? Jason: Right. It's just a, when you get to that type of cheese, that's it's a little time consuming and it's a mix of art and chemistry. Joe: Yup. It's just it's incredible. So I know we just kind of skipped over it a little bit but we talked about your daughter and, and I and I know we talked about, we didn't quite say that she's vegan, but I know that she is from based on my research about you. And I know it's tough with kids these days with all of the gluten allergies and, and everything that's going on that or used to be a lot tougher. Now, its parents are more aware there are more options and I would think that it's almost the same thing with your daughter as it is with a child that has a gluten allergy. When they go to a house for a birthday party and let's just go back to using pizza as a example, because that's how I grew up, right? That your parents would buy a bunch of pizzas, and... What does she do in that case? Or how how do you let the parents know that she's vegan and that, you know, that isn't something she would (A.) like to eat or (B.) she shouldn't eat or (C.) it might make her sick of she eats because she's not used to eating cheese. Jason: We just we tell them and ask them not to make a big deal out of it. And then we make sure our daughter has food that totally owns everybody else's. Joe: Perfect. Jason: I Joe: That's awesome! Jason: When she was in school before COVID hit, the teachers were asking if we could bring stuff for them. Joe: That is so funny. I can imagine, no I, listen, I know what it smells and tastes like. Every kid we sit there with, their pizza from Dominos going, WWO!, what are you eating? I'll trade you, I'll trade you two slices for that, that's perfect. Well good, she's totally vegan incorrect? That's amazing. So you, what is the Vcology project? Is that how you say it? Vcology Project? Jason: Vcology. Joe: Vcology. So. Jason: It's pretty much the umbrella for all the stuff that I do. Joe: That's what I thought, I just wanted to make sure. And I, because I know that you spoke about The Vegan Taste, which is the home delivery food service, Casa Terra, which is the restaurant out in Glendale, Arizona. And then I heard you speak about other things potentially coming down down the road, so I assumed that that was the umbrella where all of these things would fall under. Jason: Yeah, I mean, we're working on commercializing our cheeses on a large scale. We've already had one big vegan restaurant chain express some interest in it, which was really cool, it came out of the blue. But that was, that was a nice surprise. And Joe: Yeah. Jason: And we just want to roll out really high quality vegan cheeses onto the, onto the food service market and then retail, if we can. Joe: That's great. Jason: But if I can. I mean, if I can get, like some of the best restaurants in Phoenix using high quality of vegan cheeses, all of a sudden it opens up really great menu options for vegans around the entire town. Joe: Right. And I Jason: And Joe: Was Jason: I Joe: Thinking Jason: Think Joe: Good Jason: Go ahead. Joe: While I was sitting Jason: I think. Joe: On the dairy part of it, and I didn't even know that this underlying thing about the cheese had a broader scope or what was happening. I just I kind of chose the one thing that I know, like you, you know, it's like, how do you have ravioli? How do you have a pizza? How do you, if you you're so used to having half and half in your coffee, how do you make the move away from dairy? And I think that's, I think that's harder almost than the meat part of this or that Jason: It's way Joe: Or the Jason: Harder. Joe: Protein part of it. Right. Jason: I didn't know why until Dr. Barnard told me a few years ago that the casein in cheese is called the casomorphin and that basically means that acts like morphine. It acts like an opiate in your system. And I was like, "That makes sense!!", because one day I just gave up meat and it was like, whatever but when I gave up cheese, I had withdrawal symptoms. I was jonesing, I mean, like the hands were shaking and I had headaches and I was irritable and everything else that I had heard from people that were trying to give up cigarettes or drugs or something like that, I was going through and I'm like, "What the hell is going on?" That was, that was one way where I knew, like, I've really gotta get off this stuff, because Joe: All right. Jason: If I'm having that reaction, this is probably pretty bad for me. But it was a few years later when he told me why. And so Joe: That's Jason: Anyway, Joe: It. Jason: I think that's why cheese is so hard. Joe: That's incredible. How did the two of you get connected for that book? Your book? I wrote it down. I'm going to have it in the show Jason: Sure. Joe: Notes. Jason: The "21-day Weight Loss kickstart". So he was coming through town to do a talk and they wanted someone to do a cooking demo and I was the only one in Phoenix, doing this kind of stuff, so I just volunteered to do it. They were gonna pay me and I was like, don't worry about it, I'll just I'll just do it. And so we became friends through that and then I started teaching the cancer project classes here in Phoenix for a few years, which later became their Food for Life program. And, and during that, I just developed tons of recipes every single week. Because I think back then they were kind of in the same boat that a lot of healthy, healthy doctors are in, we're like, they're like, you have to change your diet. Here's how you do it. But they're not really experts at the here's how you do part. Joe: Right. Jason: And so, you know, their recipes were easy to do, but they weren't necessarily great. They were just like, "Ahhh". And so during that class, I just continuously develop stuff that was usually easy to make, but also really spectacular. And then because of that, we just wrote the book together. Joe: And that's really cool. It's just amazing how things, you know, you can make these connections and they just turn into something amazing like that, so, yeah. I'm trying not to skip around, there's so many things I have to ask you, I have so many notes, it's like this is, like I said, I, I was doing the meals for when I was doing the 30 day thing, basically for lunch and dinner. And then I started to do them just for lunch because my partner, Jo Ellen, we were like we were eating separate times, separate things at dinner, it felt like it wasn't this Jason: Right. Joe: Community. Jason: You loose the social part. Joe: Yeah, and so it's this balance for me. But so I thought at least at a bare minimum, and I think this is one thing that we talk about stepping stones and doing this in stages, is that it's worth at least trying to say to yourself, OK, "I'm going to eat vegan for lunch", just take a meal of the Jason: Right. Joe: day and say, this is what I'm going to do. And literally, breakfast is super easy because for me, it's, it's like a vegan smoothie, right? There's nothing and so I don't have to worry about that. It's not sausage, an egg and bacon and all this other stuff. So then you handle the vegan lunch part and you're already better than probably seventy five percent of the world in regards to how healthy you're eating. Jason: That's Joe: And Jason: What Joe: Then. Jason: I think. Joe: Right and then you just. So and that's kind of the approach I took. I don't know yet, just being honest with you, if I can completely eliminate that occasional steak or burger or Jason: Right. Joe: And I'm sure I can at some point, like for me, like you, I, I refuse to go on medication. So I'm 58 years old and I'm like, I'm not going on cholesterol medication. I don't take anything for high blood pressure. I'm not going to do any of that stuff. So if it's a, if it's food, it's going to make the difference, then that's the difference that I'll make. Go into the gym five days a week is already easy for me. But if I have to do that and get rid of the burgers and the steaks and whatever, and that's the mood that I would make. Jason: And if you could make that, did you make it fun and pleasurable, then why not? Joe: Right. That's Jason: If Joe: It. Jason: It's this chore, you know, like most people are gonna be like, ahhh screw it. I don't want to do it, Joe: Now, Jason: But. Joe: For me, it's it's talking my girlfriend into seeing if we can do it together, so that'll be the that'll be the piece we'll see. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, oh, I also heard an interview where you said that your daughter growing up with two chefs. So is your wife also working with you at either at The Vegan Taste or Casa Terra? Jason: She she was Joe: Ok. Jason: Doing The Vegan Taste for a while. Joe: Ok. Jason: I mean, for, for years, she was with me in the kitchen. And sometimes when I was off doing other stuff, she was running at it for months at a time. Joe: Got it. Jason: But I now we're in a situation where it's hard for us to split our time like that. And so she takes care of the household and raises our daughter while I take care of the business. We tried where we were splitting it both ways and it was like, I think it's hard to multitask. Right? It's hard to be great at a bunch of different stuff at the same time. And so we just finally decided, well, I'll have to go off and kind of slug it out and be the champion for the business, while she's the champion for keeping the rest of the family sane. Joe: Which is the admirable thing for sure. So The Vegan Taste, let's talk about that really quickly. So The Vegan Taste as home delivery, vegan meals that come in these great packages that are, like you said, are the goal is to heat and eat. And Jason: Right. Joe: They I don't know. I'll let you just talk about it because I don't want to, I know I had a certain schedule and the whole thing with the coolers, but I'd like you to describe it so that the audience will know what it's all about and then they can make their decision from there. Jason: Yeah, it's it's super easy. So the menu changes every single week. It's a fixed menu. You put your order in by Friday night. My crew comes into the kitchen on the weekends, makes everything. We plate it up over the weekend. Pack it up for delivery on Monday and then my team of drivers go out every Monday and they deliver all the meals at once for your entire week, that Monday. They leave it in a cooler loaded up with ice packs so even in the middle of July, the meals will stay chilled until you can pick them up and then you put them in your fridge. I know, some of our clients will reheat them on the stovetop. They'll take the ingredients out and reheat them on the stove, top it honestly, talking to people, most of them stuff it in the microwave and they have a lunch in two minutes. Joe: Yup and those containers are microwaveable. Jason: Yes, Joe: Is that correct? Jason: Yes. Joe: Yes. I know I've done both. I've depending on what the food was, sometimes I would heat it on the stove and sometimes I would heat it in the microwave. And I think that's all, also another thing in my brain about microwaves, they know make me a little nervous thinking that maybe something's there that eventually Jason: Right. Joe: someone's going to admit to, so if I if I have enough time, I'll go to the stove. If I don't, I just use the Jason: I Joe: Microwave. Jason: Am exactly the same way. I mean, I don't even have time to cook for myself very much anymore, so so I use our delivery service for me and most of the time I just slide the contents out of the container and right to a pan. Joe: So in regards to the meals that are available, is it, are they just lunches and dinners? Are they breakfast, lunch and dinners or... Jason: It's basically lunches and dinners right now, but will add in a breakfast option and the juicing option and some desserts pretty soon. Joe: And and like me, at one point, I was getting doubles of things so that I could have something for lunch and then something completely different for dinner. So I assume you have clients across the board that are only lunch, only dinner or a combination of enough meals for, is that how many, how many Jason: Yeah, Joe: can they get? Is it Jason: So, Joe: The. Jason: Yeah, basically we do six different dishes every week and you can get a single portion of each one or you can get a double portion of each one. And the people that want to have our meals for lunch and dinner, get the double portion. Joe: Right and that's what I was doing for a time, that's, that's right. And then in my case, I said that I wanted it spicy but so you actually keep tabs of certain things that people request on a small, I assume a small level because you can't be doing personalized, you know, things across the board for everybody. Jason: Yeah, we have spice is one of the standard options we have for people. And then we have a gluten free option, soy free option, although we use pretty limited soy already anyway. And then no oil option in the meals, again, are are pretty much pretty low oil already. So we just talked to people like, do you really, really want no oil? Or is that that's that you're trying to minimize your your oil? Are you trying to minimize your soy? Are you trying to minimize gluten? Because we don't we don't use those types of ingredients heavily in the meal service. And then if there's something that we can, leave off as a garnish for someone like if someone's like, "I hate right onions." I'll tell them, you know, if it's mixed into the dish, we can't change it but if it's a garnish, we can make a note to leave it off for you. Joe: Right. Jason: I mean, most people are good about it, but then sometimes I get someone that sends me a list of like 10 different things, I can't, sorry, I can't do that. Joe: Thank God I do that I don't want to sit here and look at you in the camera and go, oh, I was one of those people. And Jason: No, not Joe: I Jason: At Joe: Think Jason: All. Joe: The only thing that I said, I everything was great for me. The only thing I request that I think was less tofu in some of my stuff only because I'm I, it's just me getting used to it, it's it, and, and it's not, I would, I wouldn't even say it's a texture thing for me because I eat oysters, right? That's about as weird of a texture as you can Jason: That's sure. Joe: get. So I don't know why I definitely have had tofu from your food service, that was amazing. And it's almost like it's firm and some of it sometimes is even like crispy, like it's it's hasn't where I've had it other times where it just, just, it's just weird. Jason: Yeah, I mean. Joe: I don't know if there's good or bad tofu, maybe there's just the quality of it, I don't know. Jason: It's the way, it's the way it's prepared. And I think it's also what you're used to growing up with. I mean, if you're used to growing up with, say, diced up firm tofu in a miso soup, you're not going to bat an eye at it. But if you're not used to that, the texture might be weird for you. And I think, when dealing with American culture where we're not used to that stuff, too many people just take tofu and throw it in a soup or a stew and they're like, "Okay, that's good enough." But it's not I mean, it's like to me that's like throwing in a raw hunk of meat and is something and being like whatever. So, Joe: Yeah, Jason: You know, it's just it's Joe: Ok. Jason: All in the preparation. Joe: Ok, good to know because I started to get to like it. And thanks to you once again, because I was definitely I grew up with, in an Italian restaurant family and my father was a chef and so all of this stuff is new to me. Jason: Right! Joe: I was eating pizza and pasta and bread and, and you name it. So I wanted to ask you about Cassa Terra. I noticed that on the website, like a lot of places, especially during this time we're living in right now with COVID-19, that the kitchen is closed for the summer, right? That's what it says on the website. Jason: Yeah, Joe: Is that true? OK. Jason: A lot of the high end restaurants, it seems, around town actually close up for the summer. Unless there are these big corporate things that can afford to take the loss that restaurants just suffer with the summer here. Joe: Is Casa Terra where you do actually all the food prep and making them? So that that kitchen is still being used for the food delivery service? Jason: Yeah, it's our Joe: It's. Jason: R&D kitchen and our delivery service kitchen. We do catering and stuff out of there, too. Joe: When does the restaurant open or when do you expect it to open back up in the fall or ? Jason: I'm not sure yet Joe: Ok. Jason: Because honest answer is for a, for the type of food that we do, our location is not that great. And so if we can find a location that's more central or on the east side, that makes more sense for us right now than trying to just reopen in Glendale. And Phoenix is a weird city, so, we have these really accessible freeways and it's actually pretty easy to get around here but I don't know if our food culture is is there yet, because if someone else to drive more than 20 minutes here for food, it's painful. And the chances are they won't do it. Joe: You know. Jason: Or if they do it, they'll come once a year. And Joe: Yeah. Jason: So it's, it's difficult that way we're compared to like Los Angeles and New York or Chicago, people will spend an hour getting to, getting to a place to have dinner. And if it's a good meal, that's just part of the it's part of the experience. That might not be a great part of the experience, but it's something you're willing to do. So. Joe: Yeah, absolutely, Jason: So Joe: Yeah. It's Jason: We Joe: Funny. Jason: Have to be, yeah, we have to be in a more central location. Joe: Yeah, because I know we're in, and I live in Arcadia and the boundary for me is pretty much like the 51. If it's on the other side of the 51, I have a hard time going that far west but I understand that. You, one of the things that I did read was that about the Le Cordon Bleu the school and it was something about you being, was it the first graduate of vegan Jason: First Joe: Or Jason: Instructor. Joe: First instructor of vegan? Jason: Remember when it was theater, 2007 or 2008 that I was teaching at the Scottsdale Culinary Institute Joe: Yeah. Jason: And right when I, right when I started teaching there, they became part of the Le Cordon Bleu program. And so I, because I became the first official vegan instructor in that program. Joe: That's really cool! Jason: There was there was cool. Joe: Yeah. There's so many things, the other thing was I remember either hearing or reading that philosophy was your major? And I think what, what struck me about it, when I when I read it and then who you are and, and I even, there was an interview about making the argument of why to go vegan, like how when someone find something like this and this is why this has been like I've wanted to talk about, even though I haven't gone full vegan, I think that the health benefits are so important and just the, the eliminating of dairy alone. I mean, I've told people when they said, oh, yeah, you know, it sucks getting old. I'm like, well, I'm 58, I agree with you, but I don't, I'm, I don't wake up feeling achy. And, and, and I never did a lot of dairy, but even cutting out what I've already done, I think the inflammation piece of this is what other, you know, is another part that people are missing. Jason: I'd, Joe: And so, Jason: Yeah, it's. Joe: You know, so getting back to the philosophy part about how you're able to convey this in a not like beating someone over the head with a club, you've got to do this, it's, it's the only way. Your approach to it is your first of all, your demeanor of how your, you know, your a 6' 3" guy who you would never think if I met you in the street, would say you're vegan. And then the way you intelligently talk about the food and then the bonus of all of it is how it tastes. And so there's just so many amazing things about this, it's why I was so excited to finally do this. Jason: Well, cool! Thank you. Joe: So the Jason: It's. Joe: Go ahead with the phil..., with the philosophy part of this, I think it's helped a lot. Jason: That that's actually what got me to go vegetarian, but also it it taught me a few things about the way people make decisions because I socially and just because of the way I was raised, I didn't want to go vegetarian because it meant changing my lifestyle. And intellectually, I've been kind of bandying it about for a couple months before I pulled the trigger on it. And I didn't do it, it was just something I had thought about it. And then I had an epiphany because I was watching, I was playing with my cat. And I, intellectually, I knew my cat is this other being with its own thoughts and her own emotions. But then there was something where I was just playing with her and I had that emotional epiphany and that's where it went off and I was like, I understood that my cat was this separate creature that was valuable and she had her own rich emotional life and because she was sitting there problem solving and she was getting excited about bringing this little bottle cap back to me and playing fetch with me. It wasn't like this, this robotic, emotionless, thinking-less, piece of matter that, that's how Descartes used to view animals and that's how he justified doing all these horrible experiments he did on them because he, you know, even though they would, they would scream and all this other stuff, he passed it off as they didn't have a soul and they weren't really conscious and all this other BS. And so you can intellectually know that, but then you have the understanding there is that connection. And within a second I was like, wait a minute, it's not ok for me to just, like, take a hammer and smash my cat apart right now, that's really jacked up, that's something serial killers do. Why? Why can't I do that to my cat but why am I paying someone to do it to a cow? And I was like, "I have to stop!" So I stopped, went vegetarian and then spent a month arguing against vegetarianism to see if any of the arguments hold up. And none of the arguments were self-consistent. And so I was like, I'm going to stay vegetarian. And that was the the rational part of that. But what I learned was I had to have that emotional epiphany to fully make that leap in my decision making. And then when I went vegan, it was even more so because I was doing it for health reasons. But then I found out about factory farming. So it's ironic because being vegetarian for a few years, I had no idea about factory farming and then all of a sudden I'm looking at it for health reasons and learning about factory farming and I know that it's what happens in a factory farming is horrible and I don't want to partake in it. But yet I'm going out and having all you can eat enchiladas once a week. Because I emotionally had that tie to the enchiladas and, and so I think for most people, decision making is ah, pain pleasure balance. And it's, it's a very immediate and very immediate decision. And it's funny because people that can make that decision for the long term, we call them wise, because in the short term, going out and jogging or lifting weights sucks for most people. But the wise people go out and do that because, you know, it's going to pay off in the long term. And so I think going through that myself, even though I was trying to be rational about it and I knew what the right decision was and not being able to make it because I had this emotional thing is what got me into food in the first place. Because I knew if I could if I could take the pain part of that calculus away for people and just give them an environment where they could make a good decision for themselves and for the planet and for the animals, then, then I had to do it. Joe: Yeah, it's, it's really cool. I mean, I learned so much more about you just doing the research that I wanted to do up front and, and I think it's important how the philosophy part of your, what your brain has done through, you know, getting that degree in school and then then I heard about the soul sucking marketing job that, you Jason: Oh, Joe: Know. Jason: It was horrible. Joe: Right. Yeah. And it's and this is it all plays, this is why this Jason: It's. Joe: is such a cool interview for me. And I don't want to keep you any longer because I know that, you know, you work really hard and but I, I would love to do more at some point, Jason: Yeah, that'll be Joe: You Jason: Fun. Joe: Know, it's just cool that you, you are doing your passion. It really means a lot to you. You're you know, you eat, sleep and breathe what you preach, but you preach it in a way that it's not preaching. The food tastes amazing! It was just a godsend for me to find it. We find out tonight as you're setting up here and give it a talk, you play the drums. It's like, what, what more of a kinship could we possibly have? And all I do is try to preach on my podcast and on my, you know, social media and all that is just people following their dream. And it's really cool to see you do this. It's, it's, it's great. And and I'm glad you're healthy. Glad you made the choice when you did. You're here Jason: Yeah. Joe: To help keep us all healthy and feed us. Jason: Well it's funny, so it's funny you brought that up, because I feel like I'm in another transition point in what I'm doing because, ah you know, I had this amazing journey where I lost all this weight, I cured my diabetes, became a chef and went and helped out other people. And in the last couple years my, my health started to decline and I was like, what's going on because I'm eating right. But there's, there's all this other stuff. So, I mean, you know, in the last couple of years, I almost got divorced. I was working 100 hours a week. I was doing all this other, other stuff. I was, you know, we went to set up to open up this restaurant, we had some guys steal about 50K from us and steal, ah... He probably cost us about 200 grand in the long term, which was almost all my family's money and almost all of my best friend's money that she had. And then we opened up this, opened up this restaurant, which you were in the restaurant business, so, you know, like it is a lot of work. And on top of that, we're doing these other businesses. Jason: And so there are all these other stressors and I realize it actually happened right wing COVID hit. Because we were thinking about like, we were really looking forward to the summer when we could shut the restaurant down for a while and get a breather. And then COVID hit and all of a sudden, oddly, my life got better. Because I was spending time with my family and I was killing myself anymore and my health started to improve. That was it, I had this very narrow focus in my life, which I was really good at but it also carried all the stress that I think, I think you have when you get a little bit older in your career and you're kind of at the, you're operating at a higher level, it's also a more stressful level. And there's a lot more at stake about point. And so when COVID hit, I had more time for my family. And then I started going on bike rides again and hiking and I started spending time playing the drums, I hadn't touched my drum set in three years. Joe: WOW! Jason: And I started playing again, which was actually cool. I have this thing where I get my, stop something for a while when I pick it up and better at it. So now I can actually play some of the Rush songs that I couldn't get through Joe: Nice. Jason: For three years. Like, where did this come from? Joe: It's awesome! Jason: You know, so that was cool. And so, so I realized, like, I'd been talking about environment with food choices. But I've been ignoring everything else that goes into being a healthy person and taking care of your mental state, taking care of your family, making sure you have time to not be insane with all this other other stuff and so I think my crew is shifting into a point where I'm going to start talking about more about holistic health and creating good environments for your, for your well-being as an adult. It's, I'm sure it's true for for kid or whatever part you're in but since I'm in my 40s and kind of went through the midlife crisis part, that's how I solved it, was figuring out that I had to create a good environment to make good choices throughout my whole life and not just with the food, because I'd just been concentrated on the food, which is one key. Joe: You. Yeah, it's amazing how many people I know, it's it's hurt a lot of people. But I personally, it's been the best three months and so long because I was running so hard. And like I said, I've gotten to do things that I want to do. I it's just it's been a good thing. And I'm glad to hear that everything is turning back around for you, too, as well. I worried about you when it happened, to be honest, because, you know, I, I know it devastated the event world for me, I mean everything just stopped. And so I was worried just purely whether or not you know how how well you would do during that time. And it's funny, speaking of, you know, COVID-19. Was there any concerns about, you know, your clients with Joe: The food delivery and any, any things that you had to do differently in order to to be, you know, follow the CDC guidelines or anything like that? Jason: We just did extra sanitation, but we were already doing that stuff anyway. Joe: Right. Jason: We were just more hardcore about it than normal. But that was it. Because I think with the food delivery, it's contactless, so our drivers just show up and Joe: Drop the Jason: They're Joe: Cooler. Jason: At their doorstep Joe: Yeah. Jason: In and head out. Joe: Yeah. Jason: So, so in a way, it didn't really affect the delivery service at all. Joe: Got Jason: It was Joe: It. Jason: horrible for the restaurant, but that ended up being a boom for us personally. Joe: Yep, yep. Well, awesome! Man. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you're here. Like I said, I was disappointed when I had a sort of postpone it last time, I just took on too much. It was one of those deals where I thought I could I forget how much time postproduction takes after I get off this thing to get it, Jason: Yeah. Joe: You know, ready for prime time. But I am super, super grateful that you said yes and you came on, I love your food and you're an amazing human being. The more I've done the research and get to know you now. And it sounds like your daughter is definitely waiting for you to put her to bed. So I'm glad, I could go on, I swear to God for another hour, there's so many questions about food and just things that you've done, but we'll do it another time for sure. Jason: Yeah, that'll be fun. I'd love to come back. Joe: I again, I can't thank you enough. It's an honor to have you on here. And I'd love to have you back again. Just for the audience sake and things like that, where's the best place to get in touch with you? And I'll put I'll do in the show notes, I'll list every, you know, your social media things but like in regards to, let's say, The Vegan Taste, what's the best way for people to reach out? Jason: Just go right to thevegantaste.com Joe: Okay, perfect. Jason: I mean, we have all the social media platforms, but it seems like, you know, Facebook changes what they want to show to people every few months and Instagram is the same way. You know, all these other ones. So just just go straight to thevegantaste.com Joe: Perfect. I'll put in all the other links, I'll take care of all of that. Again, thank you so much, I appreciate it, it's so, I look forward to actually meeting you live in person. Maybe we can sit around and jam one night. Jason: That would be awesome! Joe: I would love it. So. Jason: Cool. Joe: All right. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Jason: Hey, thank you. Have a good night. Joe: You too!

Do you have a coach to help guide you to grow your property management business? If you want to excel at what you're doing, you must have somebody who's playing a bigger game than you. Today, Jason Hull and Jon Ray of DoorGrow continue their discussion on premature expansion in property management. Besides putting planning and process documentation systems into place to be more efficient, they focus on the third system: Communication (internal and external).  You’ll Learn... [01:33] Interruptions and Inefficiency: Every interruption costs 18 minutes of productivity.  [02:13] Pay to Play: Learn from coaches how to protect and guard against interruptions. [02:40] Cut the Slack: Chat tool that creates interruptions and crushes team productivity.  [03:15] Under-Communication: Creates interruptions that prevent momentum and flow. [04:07] Communication System: Only involve those internally that need to know, and find ways to improve external client communication. [06:01] Organizational Structure: Clear line of communication for delegation. [08:15] Who does what? Pair effective visionary with brilliant operator to get things done. [18:18] Sales solves all problems—not always true. Growth feeds business. [19:25] Get things in place, and then it's not premature. [21:00] Jack of All Trades, Master of None: Entrepreneurs find opportunity everywhere.  [25:34] DoorGrow OS: Consolidate systems, processes, professionals to be successful. [31:10] Three Currencies: Growth involves time, money, and effort. Tweetables Every interruption costs about 18 minutes of productivity for one team member.  Under-Communication: Creates as many interruptions that prevent momentum and flow. Every team member you add lowers your pressure and noise. Every team member you add makes your job and life easier.  Get things in place, and then it's not premature. Resources Intercom Help Scout Voxer Process Street Jason Fried of Basecamp Warren Buffett Slack Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS)/Traction Mastering the Rockefeller Habits: What You Must Do to Increase the Value of Your Growing Firm HireSmartVAs Anequim with Mexican VAs DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jon: I have worked with coaches for the past 20 years. I believe in them wholeheartedly. If you're going to excel at what you're doing, you have to have somebody who's playing a bigger game than you. Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. I’m hanging out here with someone else from DoorGrow, Jon Ray. Jon: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Jason: The third system that's necessary so that you can avoid premature expansion is you need an internal communication system. If you're still operating on sneakernet, or constant interruptions like sneakernet as they walk into your office all the time and interrupt you, then you're operating really inefficiently. Every interruption costs you about 18 minutes of productivity for one team member. If one team member interrupts another team member that's 18 minutes times 2. I don't know what that is, but it's more than a half-hour. Jon: Thirty-six minutes. Jason: Too many minutes, like 40 minutes down the drain because two people decided to talk to each other, or one person interrupted somebody else. You have to protect and guard against interruptions. All of this stuff is stuff that has to be learned. It's stuff that I've had to pay lots of money to learn from different coaches.  I had met with Jason Freed, the creator of Basecamp, and hung out with me on a call like this for 90 minutes. He cut my staffing costs in half overnight. We're high tech. We were using all kinds of technology. He pointed out how we are using this chat tool that had group rings. It was causing everybody to interrupt everybody all the time. Everybody feels like they had to read everything. It made our entire business completely inefficient. The software was Slack for those of you that are big Slack fans. Slack was absolutely killing and crushing our productivity as a team. It is basically an endless diarrhea without context or stream of information for every single project. Everyone on the team felt like they had to read every single thing. Jon: One of the things that entrepreneurs are aware of is that when a team is under communicated, that's not a good thing. But there's this idea that maybe over-communication is the way to go. That's actually just as bad, if not as bad, because it creates so many interruptions that then prevent people from finding the momentum and flow that allows them to be most efficient. Jason: The reason it costs you 18 minutes of productivity is because that's about how long after somebody that causes interruption, regardless of how much time they're spending with you. They might spend 15 minutes with you, and then it's 18 minutes. It takes time to get back into the flow. What was I doing? How do I rebuild this house of cards that I was building before Steve came in from finance and interrupted everything? There needs to be an internal communication system that works effectively for the team that only involves the people that need to know or deal with a certain thing at a certain given time, rather than everybody needing to see everything. If you're a control freak as an entrepreneur, and you need to know everything, and see everything, you're probably the biggest bottleneck in the company. You need a planning system, you need a process and documentation system, you need an internal communication system. The other system that you need is you need an external communication system. You need a client communication system that makes it easy. We use Intercom. Some people will use HubScout. You also might use your property management software in some ways for this. You might have phones, but you have to clearly have an effective client communication system. That's something we're always working on improving is client communication. We use Voxer internally as a team, and some of my coaching clients will use that as well. We've got a lot of tools that we use to increase communication, but most of it is one-on-one. It's not causing big group interruptions or situations like that. Jon: An important thing to reference here—when it comes to creating the right communication systems—is that there has to be clear lines for delegation. Part of your process documentation needs to be letting each employee at each level and in each role understand what type of tasks are appropriate to delegate up to you and what needs to be delegated down. Jason: All that comes with the process documentation, but planning helps with that a lot at that system, and then you need an internal communication system. As part of that, that's kind of the organizational structure. There needs to be a clear line of communication where somebody reports to somebody. I was talking with a property manager the other day. They had their part of another business. What she said is that this other business that she's a part of—outside of a property management business—that there are three bosses. Over one department there's two managers. I said, “Well, how did the team members know which one to go to?” I said, “Are they very different personality-wise? Do they get different answers?” She's like, “Absolutely.” So then, how do they know which one to go to? There's so much confusion in this entity. She could see it. Me hearing about it just made my skin crawl because I was like, “I would feel so crazy and uncomfortable because it sounds like a nightmare.” There's all this infighting and politics and all the stuff going on because nobody has any clarity. People don't even know. She said somebody got promoted in this business and everybody said, “Hey, congratulations.” There was a celebration. Jon: I’m going to take this time and just pause you. I know that there are people out there that are saying, “This sounds like a lot of work. I'm already too stressed out.” There's so much resistance to putting in this work. What we're talking about is do you want to win at a new level of the maze? Do you want to be a high achiever? Because if you're satisfied with being in this mediocre average zone of success, then maybe you don't need all of this. If you ever want to get to a level where you're dominating your local marketplace, and you're running a business that isn't just growing but is growing comfortably, these things are mandatory, right? Jason: Yeah. I can empathize with that strongly. The little story—just to wrap it—was everybody was congratulating this person. They were asking him, “Cool. What are you going to do now?” He said, “I don't know. I’ll figure it out as I go, I guess.”  Anyway, let's go back to the question. What was the question again? Sorry, I have to finish the thread. Jon: There's so much resistance around showing up and having to actually do all of this stuff. Maybe you can talk about why it's important to push through that resistance, or how to do that? Then why ultimately, the short term resistance and discomfort leads to a more comfortable, more profitable, and more fun business down the line? Jason: I just would rather kill the resistance. Here's what I realized. I had a ton of resistance. When I started working with some of the best operational companies, ­­I was working with probably the best operational coach that might exist in the business world. I had already studied traction, and EoS (end of sale), and I'd heard of the Rockefeller Habits, and scaling up, and I went to this thing called warrior. There are other systems out there similar to the 90-day year. All these planning systems have some commonalities between them, which I sort of outlined when we discussed the planning system. I felt a ton of anxiety when I was going and learning this stuff. You want to know why? Because I'm not the person that should be doing that stuff. That kind of stuff is stuff that operationally minded people love. I can geek out on a system like I could see the genius in it, but me doing it, and me implementing it, me running meetings, I'm not the person to do that. Most CEOs and entrepreneurs are the worst to run team meetings, to manage their team, to manage operations, to manage operational processes. That's why you'll see almost any visionary—that's really effective—paired up with some sort of person that's operationally brilliant. It gives them the freedom to create ideas, create a vision. The operator helps them make that stuff come true and happen. Jon: If I'm a property manager and I'm still in that first sandtrap, and maybe I'm not even doing more than a quarter-million a year in revenue, and I don't really have the budget to bring these people on. Can you talk about what it would look like to start thinking about a hiring trajectory and mapping out some of the milestones of how I can get to this place? Jason: This is a learned process to know clearly where your time is going, how you're the biggest bottleneck in the business, what needs to happen next? This is stuff that we teach, but it's a process. There's a system for knowing exactly what you need next to take the business to the next level. It's part of the stuff that we teach clients.  Ultimately, for those that maybe they’re the lower level like, “I can't hire a COO. I can't hire an operational manager. I can't even hire an operations assistant yet.” Maybe they just get a personal assistant, executive assistant, somebody that loves planning. They love process. They love documenting things. They love systems. They geek out on these things. They like calendars and spreadsheets. They'd love to color coordinate sock drawers. Their closet is organized. Their desk is spotless. These are not typical visionary entrepreneur personality types that are high-driven types of people. If you are not that personality type—now on property management, you do get some operationally-minded people, but they might not also be the driver. They may need to get a BDM (business development manager) in the business. Somebody that's out there crushing it, and closing deals, and aggressive because maybe they're that operationally-minded person. That's why I think every business needs to be built around you, the entrepreneur, but if you're hearing this and you're getting anxious. You're like, “All these systems, all this stuff,” and you're overwhelmed. That probably means you're not the operations-minded person. The operations person, they probably have some of these, and they get excited about that. Those property managers are the ones that are like, “I can't grow yet. We're working on all of our systems and processes first,” and they have 10 doors. They're documenting everything and getting everything dialed in and then you have the opposite. You have to figure out which type are you? The other thing to point out is this stuff doesn't make your life crazier, and it doesn't make your life more chaotic, and it doesn't feel it's not more work. Because when you start to get these things implemented, and you're offloading, and you're systemizing, and you have planning, and you have vision, your team can actually help you do all of this. Every team member you add actually lowers your pressure and noise. Every team member I've added to the team has made my job and life easier. I'm doing less. Every day I'm doing less. Every new person—I brought you on—I’m doing less. What that allows me to do is to do more of the things that I really should be doing, the things that I'd really love, the things that really make me feel alive. I'm to the point now that I enjoy doing sales, but you've taken that off my plate, and you're taking some of the marketing stuff off my plate. I enjoy doing marketing, but there are things that I now want to do more than those things. As you build out your team—the very first person you need usually is an assistant, very first person. Hopefully, that's a person that you can grow into the role of being an operations assistant, an operations manager, maybe a COO of your company at some point if they’re brilliant and effective enough. Because that's going to lower your pressure significantly, and they're going to help you get all of this stuff dialed in and implemented. Jon: I know a lot of people have hired somebody at $10 an hour to be a personal assistant. They've had a bad experience, or that person just didn't really do what they were supposed to do. Is there some way to think about bringing on a personal assistant where that's actually going to be a successful relationship? Jason: Oh man. We've had people in the show like HireSmartVAs and Anequim with the Mexican VAs. If you're not an expert, and you don't know how to answer that question, and you want to just get a virtual assistant like those, or a great assistant we've had on the show—if you want a US-based assistant, you need help. Because you don't know how to identify these people. The mistake we make as entrepreneurs is we tend to hire people we like or that are like us. That's not the person you usually need. You usually need a person that's somewhat your opposite that can balance you out, and handle the things, and take things off your plate that gives you more pressure noise. We have a process we take people through to identify that so that you can build up the ultimate job description for your dream team member. The silliest thing I ever hear—and I mentioned this in some of the system shows—is when an entrepreneur starts asking around, “What do you have your assistant do?” That's like walking around the grocery store asking people, “Hey, what do you eat? What are you having for dinner?” Because they have no clarity. You're not ready to hire. It's not what they can do, it's what do you need? You have to get really clear on what do you not enjoy? What drains you? What's sapping your energy? What is that has alignment with you personally? That's one of the things we get people really strong clarity on is who they are, what they should and shouldn't be doing, so the business can be built around the entrepreneur instead of built around somebody else's system, or somebody else's process. This is my major problem with traction and some of these other systems. It’s building according to somebody's ideal system, which ironically is a system that requires some special coach that's super expensive that you have to do it that one exact way. You need this thing called an integrator that is only one that can do it. Jon: I was going to say I think the people that I see who are the worst at delegation are really nice people. Because really nice people hate asking other people to do stuff that they don't want to do themselves. The misconception there is that other people like the same type of work that you like. You can always find somebody who loves to do the things that you hate to do. That's how you should be thinking about hiring. Let me find somebody that I can bring on as an assistant who can start to help me offload all the things I don't want to do, but they love doing those things. Jason: The biggest mistake we can make as an entrepreneur in our business—when it comes to team members—is to assume that our team members think the way we do. Almost none of them do. They're very different. Otherwise, they'd be entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are just different. My team members love being told what to do each day and having clear ideas of what to do. Me, I want freedom and I want autonomy. There are huge differences. You need to recognize that the stuff that you hate doing, somebody loves doing that. I don't like calendars. I don't like staring at spreadsheets all day. I don't like doing graphic design in front of a computer all day. Can I do these? Can I enjoy them sometimes? Yes, but that doesn't mean that that's my best use in the business or in life and that I want to do that. My team members that love those things, they love those things. They could do that every day. That's just fun for them. I don't ever have to motivate them. That's how I know I've gotten somebody in the right position because they love doing what they're doing. Without getting too far off-track—because we could do a whole episode just on hiring, planning, whatever. Jon: How does all this tie back into premature expansion and whether or not I as a property manager am ready to expand? Jason: The one other system we didn't mention is you need a sales process and system. You need some growth system that's feeding the business. This might be the most important. Some say sales solves all problems. Not totally true, but without sales, you don't have a business. There's no revenue. You can't pay your team members. Things get scary. You can't pay your mortgage, or rent, or whatever you’re doing, you can't pay the lease on your building. Sales have to be happening. Bit growth has to be happening in the business. All of these things go together. You need all these different systems in order to work. If you have all these systems, then you almost have a franchise model in which you can open up another office, or a new location, expand into a new market. Ultimately, you're going to want to keep as much as possible—probably centralized—to lower operational costs, to reduce redundancies, and get what you need to support that new location. Then you know, all right, this is not premature. We've thought this out. The baby is ready to be born. This is all set up. The reason I call premature expansion because there's nothing premature that is usually considered positive. Anything that's premature—whatever you can think of—is usually a bad thing. I wanted people to understand it's too early, it's too early. You don't have things in place. Get the things in place, and then it's not premature. Does that mean you're going to learn? Yeah, you're still going to learn. Are there going to be mistakes? Absolutely. Is it going to be messy sometimes? Sure, but that's running a business. Perfect businesses don't exist. That's part of just what's going to happen. If you're dealing with that, the idea of starting this new location expanding everything else and everything else is already a mess, you're just pouring gasoline on a fire that's already there and it's just getting worse. Jon: These processes and systems really give you a leverage that allows you to be really successful in a lot of different styles of expansion. Whether that's opening another office, or acquiring something. The best investors in the world—like Warren Buffett—are essentially people who are really good at systems and processes. When they go and acquire a business that's in chaos, they know that they can immediately implement the right systems, processes, and management team, and that business will become profitable very quickly. It puts you in a position where you have a huge competitive advantage over anybody who's just bootstrapping it or shooting from the hip. Jason: Another form of premature expansion is death by opportunity. Entrepreneurs, we see opportunities everywhere. You know you're the opportunist type of property manager or entrepreneur business owner if you are like, “We can start a roofing company. Let's start a maintenance company and we could serve these other companies. Let's do roofing. Let's get a house cleaning business. Let's do carpet cleaning.” I know business owners that they have new property management, and they have seven or eight other businesses. Jon: It's like the jack of all trades, master of none. Jason: Some of them can be good. They can build out teams, they can have things really well dialed in. If you learn to do it for one—like you we're saying—you can do this for all of these businesses and make sure that it's going well. But if one's a mess, you're just adding more problems and making it more challenging. What it does is it dilutes focus. Focus is one of the key ingredients for making money. If you want to make a certain amount of money, and you're like, “Well, let's add more services.” You would think that would add more money. What it usually does for most entrepreneurs is it just dilutes what they can already do. It just divides that up and it becomes more and more challenging. It's a lot easier to make a million dollars in one company than a million dollars to 10 annually. That's another form of premature expansion. That all comes back to the planning system. The planning system, and our vision, and goals as a company give me constraints as an entrepreneur and as a visionary. I'm like, “We could do this and we could do that.” My team is like, “We can't. We've got all these goals that we’re working towards. We've got this, we got this. Maybe we can make room for that next quarter or next year.” This protects them from the grenade when I come back from the conference and I have all these ideas and want to change everything. They'll say, “I can see that I don't want to lose sight of what we have going already and destroy that momentum. I want to achieve these objectives. It's going to get us money. It's going to get us making a difference. All these things that I want. We need to keep that going. Then we can figure out where that can fit in.” It just allows us to not just go through the buffet line, throw a ton of stuff on a plate, and then end up not being able to utilize even half of it. Jon: Once everything that you're talking about—the communication systems, the processes, the systems—once all that's in place, it also gives your staff and your employees a mechanism for delivering feedback to you, even if that's uncomfortable feedback. Almost always—maybe not almost always, but at least in the businesses that I've run as a high-level manager—the employees who are actually doing the operations a lot of the time have really solid ideas on how to make things more efficient, but they feel afraid of communicating those up. By opening up those channels of communication and making it so that it's not uncomfortable for a lower-level employee to give a great idea and have that idea be received, you can actually empower your team to fix a lot of the inefficiencies. Jason: Here's a real simple thing that I thought of that you can recognize if you're ready for premature expansion. If you are the one running all your team meetings, and you're the first to speak in all those meetings, you're already losing. Have you noticed that I'm not running the meetings, and everyone asks me what I think less? “Hey, are you stuck on anything?” I'm the last one to go. Because it's so easy for us as entrepreneurs to say, “Hey, here's my idea. Everyone should do this.” Then when you ask your team members they're going to go, “Yeah, what the boss says. He pays me. That sounds like a good idea. I'll go with what he says. That's the safest answer.” Jon: Growth in all levels—personally and it when it's directly related to revenue—means that there has to be an integration of discomfort sometimes. The proper communication levels mitigate and buffer the discomfort that employees have for communicating good ideas. Oftentimes, the people on the ground level are the ones most capable of finding the thing that's going to work for your current team dynamic. Jason: This is something we've been thinking about a while. We run our business using a system that we called DoorGrow OS that I feel like is one of the most brilliant planning systems out there. It's a consolidation of several different planning systems, operational coaches I've worked with, having brilliant operators on my team. It's something I built out even software-wise that we use internally as a team. You've just started to get a taste of this. There's clarity. There's communication. Everyone knows what they're doing. We're hitting targets, and goals, and objectives each week. The momentum is strong. This is how we grew 300% in a year. Jon: It's a really interesting way of running a team. I've run a lot of teams that have a lot of branches underneath the management. This just provides a level of efficiency and oversight that still makes upward and downward communication very feasible and very easy. Maybe at some point, I'll convince you to share that system with the rest of the world, but right now, it's been really interesting for me to understand some of those principles and see how the years and years of working with all these coaches have been baked into some of these ideas and the things that you're identifying as the ways to know whether what you're doing is premature expansion or actually profitable growth. I don't know if you have anything else on your list, but I know that we're starting to get a little bit long. Maybe we could just recap what we’ve talked about. I'll turn it over to you for any final words of how somebody can take what we spoke about in this podcast and make it actionable. For somebody who has nodded their head to at least one or two of the things that you said during this podcast, what should be their next step for starting to figure out how they can start to tweak the knobs and levers of their business in order to be more in line with what will actually make them successful? Jason: Every business owner is doing the best they can with what they know. Every person on the planet really is doing the best they can with the limited access to knowledge and resources they currently possess. If you knew better, you would do better. There's a lot of things I don't know. There's a lot of things that I can't see. My best feedback is—you've probably heard a lot of ideas on this recording. Maybe you were nodding your head, but ultimately, if you feel stuck, or you don't feel like you're going as fast as you want, or you don't feel like your company's in momentum, then you need help. You need to reach out. That's one of the scariest things for us to do as entrepreneurs, but I do it. I have coaches that I pay. I go and I get help. If I don't know something, I hire a coach. I've got an event I’m planning on going to in March to learn something that I feel like I'm weak at in the business. Normally I would hand up to other team members but something I've avoided that I need to know more about. You need to have enough vulnerability to recognize that you can't do it all on your own. You're not Atlas holding the entire globe on your back. You need to get support.  If you don't feel like you have support, if you don't feel like you have somebody in your corner, if you feel like you're the smartest person in the room in your company, and everybody's just going to say yes to whatever you throw at them, there's a big problem. You've got big blind spots. You need to reach out. You need to get help. That could be us at DoorGrow. Set up a call with us, reach out. We can help you identify some of the blind spots, some of the leaks, some of the inefficiencies, and get you into a high state of momentum. We start in those five core functions at the very beginning. Jon: I want to just mention—because I can feel that somebody just had some resistance to, “You can't do it on your own. You need a coach.” That almost sounds too salesy. Maybe we could alter that statement and soften it for that person who feels resistance to that because you could do it on your own. You could go to the bookstore. You could buy all the books. You could read through them all. You could slowly implement things, and see what works, and what doesn't work, and it would take you forever, or you can work with a coach and collapse time. For people who are looking to collapse time, that's when it becomes incredibly valuable to work with somebody who's already done all of that research and extracted the best practices, split testing all the ideas and figured out what works. Now, you can have a roadmap for how to get to success in the quickest way possible instead of having to trial and error your way down the road. Jason: I am a big fan of trial and error, but I do also like collapsing time. My coaches have helped me collapse time dramatically. I was that guy. I was for many years. I was the guy that thought I could watch another Youtube video, or read another book, and I could figure out on my own. It took a ton of time. You have to recognize there are at least three currencies. If you want growth, it involves time, it's going to involve money, and it's going to involve focus, or energy, or work, or effort, whatever you want to call it. Those could probably be broken up even further, but you've got these three currencies. If you use all three and invest all three you can grow faster. If you decide, “I'm not going to invest money. I don’t want to go hire a coach. I don't want to pay DoorGrow. I don’t want to go spend money on this.” Then you can go buy cheap things like books, and watch free YouTube videos, and get a lot of some good stuff. Some stuff that's leading you the wrong way but you don't know. They're experts so maybe they'll be telling the truth. You try it out. Then what ends up happening is it's just going to take infinitely more time. That was my challenge. I spent a massive amount of time. It was painful. When I finally started to invest serious money towards the best that I could afford at the time, I collapsed time dramatically, and I always made that money back. Not even just made it back. I made it back monthly. I was making more than I paid the coach. That's almost been my experience with every coach. I've got so many coaches that I paid $5000 a month. It gets ridiculous, but do I make more of that in a month? Absolutely. Jon: One of the things that I hear on the calls is if someone isn't seriously setting goals for their business, it feels to me like it's because they're afraid that they're not going to hit them. If they don't say them out loud then they don't have to suffer the defeat of not hitting it. One of the reasons to work with a coach is to have the accountability and the hand-holding required to get you over that resistance and that hump so that you can actually start hitting those numbers. The first time that you hit one of the goals that you set, you get addicted to it. You want to keep hitting goals, but because people have set so many goals in the past and then failed at hitting them, they don't set goals anymore. Jason: They don’t trust themselves. Jon: One of the things that a good coach can do is get you back in alignment with your goals so that you recognize that that vision is possible to hit. That's part of that collapsing time. There's a ton of great business books out there, there's a ton of great niche courses out there. You can throw money into a million different ways to “grow your business,” but if you're not looking at your business holistically, and you're just looking to fix the symptom with some kind of a band-aid, you're never going to be an A-player in anything that you're doing. There's an opportunity to level up by working with a coach—whether that's DoorGrow or somebody else. I have worked with coaches for the past 20 years. I believe in them wholeheartedly. If you're going to excel at what you're doing, you have to have somebody who's playing a bigger game than you. Jason: That's very true. I agree. Let's end on that note. Jon, I appreciate you and hanging out with you again. Those that are watching, make sure to—if you're watching this on Youtube—subscribe, like us. If you're hearing this in iTunes, please, be sure to leave us some feedback. We want to hear your real feedback there. Leave us a review. That helps us out. Jon: I’m also going to say before this goes out. Join us in the Facebook group because this can be an ongoing conversation that we have in the Facebook group. We have so many stellar examples of property managers who are doing all the right things there. You can interface with them, you can interface with the people on our team, and you can tell us what's working, not working in your business. Then if you disagree with everything that we just said, we invite you to come and have that conversation as well. Because any type of conversation whether you're praising what we're doing or trying to chip it down with an ax is going to allow us to grow, and iterate, and become better. We want to have you in that group. Jason: Well said. Until next time, everybody. To our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge in getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

What do you want to do with your life? Sit on the sidelines in a cubicle or travel the world? Take control of your life instead of watching it pass you by. Consider investing, start your own business, and enter the world of entrepreneurship. Today, I am talking to Reed Goossens, Lead Asset Manager/Chief Operations Officer of Wildhorn Capital, about investing in the United States. After spending two years abroad, having a great time, and meeting the girl of his dreams, Reed returned to Australia to sit in a cubicle as a civil structural engineer and wonder how he could get paid to travel. You’ll Learn... [03:17] Real Estate Investing: Rich Dad Poor Dad ignited Reed’s interest in being an entrepreneur. [03:45] Reed’s Journey: Leaving the safety of his cubicle in Australia to moving to America without a job for the love of his future wife.  [03:58] No job, no network, no problem: Took just six months for Reed to find a job in the United States and purchase his first investment property.  [04:29] Investing in the U.S. and 10,000 Miles to the American Dream: Reed went from reading Rich Dad Poor Dad to writing his own books on real estate investing.  [04:51] Structural Engineering: Prepared Reed for his future in America when it comes to construction. He’s built about half-a-billion dollars worth of infrastructure worldwide.  [06:21] Do you want financial freedom? How to get started in real estate investing.  [07:37] Benefits: Real estate investing creates cash flow, appreciation, and amortization.  [08:07] Rental properties aren’t turnkey, but property management is key to success.  [10:00] How to find a good property manager? Business culture with growth opportunity. [14:10] Ok Boomer: It’s not just about doing work whether you’re miserable or not. People want meaning and purpose.  [15:27] Invest in Yourself: Self-educate by reading books, listening to podcasts, joining local meetup groups, and expressing a willingness to learn.  Tweetables Structural Engineer: Scheduling, foundation and soil issues, you name it, throw it.  You make money when you buy, you lose it through bad property management. Culture: Critical and pivotal to foundation of business and why clients can trust them. Change and grow. People want meaning and purpose. Get out of your own way.  Resources Reed Goossens Email Reed Goossens Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today’s guest, I’m hanging out with Reed Goossens of Wildhorn Capital. Reed, welcome to the show.  Reed: Good day, Jason. Thanks for having me on the show, mate. Jason: All right. You’ve got a really cool accent. Tell everybody where you’re from. Reed: From deep West Texas, mate, down below New Zealand and Australia. Jason: Very deep Texas. Got it. Reed: I’m originally from Australia. Grew up an Aussie, I went to school there, and moved to the United States back in 2012 when I moved here for two loves. One love was for my then girlfriend and now wife, and the other love was for the Big Apple. That’s really how it got me to the United States. Jason: All right. Those women man, they get us to move. They just do it. Awesome. We’re going to be talking about investing in the US but before we get into that, tell us a little about how you got into this and then lead us right into this topic. Reed: Sure. Let’s do it. My background is in structural engineering. I went to university for structural engineering, graduated in 2007, went abroad which means going overseas, and worked in the London 2012 Olympic games for about a year back in 2008. Then, I moved to the south of France, had an incredible life journey down there and that’s actually where I met my American wife or at the time, girlfriend. We fell in love and after galavanting around the south of France, I crossed the Atlantic Ocean. I worked for some Russian billionaires on some super yacht (it’s a whole story in itself). I found myself back in Australia in 2010 in a cubicle working as a civil structural engineer. The whole idea of I spent these two years abroad, having a great time, meeting the girl of my dreams, and I’m now sitting in this cubicle going, “Geez, what the hell?” I want someone to pay me to live this life of travel. Really, the thing that came up to me was investing, but I didn’t know what entrepreneurship was. I didn’t even really understand real estate investing. I picked up the book Rich Dad Poor Dad, and that’s back in 2009, a decade ago. That was the spark that got it all started. From there, I took the blinkers off a little bit. I definitely felt like a star athlete sitting on the sidelines, watching my life go by, and I really wanted to take control of that life. Over many years of self-education, I ended up moving to the United States. I quit my safe engineering job in Australia and moved in early 2012 to chase Erica, my wife. I moved here without a job. I didn’t have any network here and over a short period of time I was able to find a job. I think within six months of moving to the United States, I had my first property purchased, a triplex. The various [...] here in the United States for those people who are not aware are very, very low compared to Australia. The whole thing about Rich Dad Poor Dad says, “Get started by putting cash in your pocket and having assets.” That’s really where it got started. Jason: All right, and you’ve written some books. Reed: Yes I have. I’ve written two books, Investing in the US which is the podcast form, now in book form. I’ve written a second book with a couple of other Aussie entrepreneurs called The 10,000 miles to the American Dream. We’ve all moved out here and successfully invested in real estate, inside of real estate businesses, and now we’re sharing our story with the world. Jason: Structural engineering, how do you feel that prepared you for the stuff that you’re doing now. Reed: It hugely prepared me. I probably can walk into a room and run rings around most people in terms of when it comes to construction. As a project manager in a career, I had built about half a billion dollars worth of infrastructure, multi-family retail across the globe. Scheduling, understanding foundation issues, and soil issues, you name it, throw it at me, and we can go bat if you want to go bat. It also got me into a role that I worked for a developer in Long Beach for many years and learned the business side of the real estate game through them as well. Jason: Where are you located now? Reed: I’m in LA. I was in New York for a couple of years back in 2012–2013, then moved back out to sunny California because it was just too cold in New York. Jason: I get it. I’m just north of you. I’m in Los Angeles county, in Santa Clarita. Reed: Nice. We have to go meet up and go surfing some time because I love the beach. Jason: Yeah. The beach is cold, though. Reed: Let’s see, mate. Let’s see. Jason: Yeah. Reed, really cool to connect with you. Let’s get into this topic of investing in the US For those that are listening across the pond or those that are in the US, let’s make this relevant for both of them. Reed: Sure. Let’s do it. What do you want to know? I’m an open book. Jason: Where should we start? How does somebody start investing if they have no clue? You’ve been there at one point and if somebody has never done real estate investing, they haven’t invested themselves whether they’re here or not, how would they get started? Reed: Well, I think the whole idea is about what you want to achieve in your life. Do you want financial freedom? A lot of people get started in real estate investing to achieve some sort of financial freedom. Per my story in the beginning of the show, I felt stuck. I felt trapped in a cubicle. I wanted more to do with my life. The whole thing that drives me, Jason, is the fact that I have a fear of regret. If I wake up when I’m 65 years of age going, “Geez, I wish I’d given that a go,” I’ll have regrets. The whole thing that gets me driving, gets me up in the morning is going out and pushing my boundaries and being uncomfortable. The whole thing about real estate investing is you’ve got to ask yourself, “What do you want to do it for?” Is it to create financial freedom for your family? Is it to create a little bit of extra income? You love your job, but you just want to put your money to work and not sit in a bank? Whatever that might be, real estate investing is really big compared to the stock market investing. It’s one of the best investment vehicles in the world because it has all the benefits. There’s the four benefits as cash flow, there’s appreciation, there’s amortization, and it has appreciation of a long-term in terms of market appreciation. There are many benefits that you can have through investing in real estate compared to other stock investing or bond investing that make it a really quite a safe haven. It really goes back to, “What do you want to grow for your family or for yourself personally?” Once you answer that question, we can get off into the details of how you go do it. Jason: One of the challenges that you’ll see in the real estate industry is that a lot of people will make these claims. You see these gearers that are like, “Hey, just get into real estate investing. Buy this matching program and then it’s going to be easy.” And then they end up with these rental properties that are really difficult and they realize it’s not so turnkey. They’ve got tenants. They’ve got renters. Property management, maybe more than anything, is kind of the gateway to this because property management played a role in the properties that you tend to be involved in or the real estate investment that you do. Reed: Yeah, 100%. In property management, you make money when you buy, you lose it through bad property management. If you don’t have the right property managers on board, you can be royally screwed. We’ve experienced it. We have the daily grind of running a real estate investment firm at Wildhorn Capital, we have a constant struggle with trying to find good bums and seats to make sure that when they’re running our $40–$50 million assets, that they know what they’re doing, and they’re competent. You might be in certain markets which might not attract the right type of property managers. You really got to be really careful at how you select the people who sit at the helm of the ship of any property that you buy. We happen to buy large multi-families, so we have 200–300 units at any one property. There is a lot going on, a lot of moving pieces. Making sure that you have those right people in those positions, to make sure that they’re steering the ship in the right direction and you’re not going to lose money, and the deal’s going to continue to perform for the investors, is really important. My job within Wildhorn Capital is to make sure as a Lead Asset Manager, Chief Operations Officer, is really to make sure that those individual property managers, those individual sites are doing what they’re supposed to be doing. The original point, property management is the key to success. Jason: Love it. I get asked this question all the time when I go on other people’s podcast. They’re always asking me, “How do you find a good property manager? How do you identify them?” I want to put this on somebody else for a change. What do you look for when you’re looking for either a good property management company you’re going to partner with, in situations where you need that, or when you’re doing hiring to find a good property manager? Reed: Let’s answer the first question. To give some context, we have 1700 units across 8 assets in Austin, Texas. We have a third party property manager. I live in Los Angeles. My business partner lives in Austin, but we stood third party better. Probably, what a lot of people would do whether you start with a single family or you’re buying 150 units, you’re probably going to go out at the beginning to a third party. How do you identify those third parties? We just recently went through a transition. We had to fire our original property management company and it really boiled down to a couple of things. One was culture. Business culture is really, really important. If you’re going to be attracting someone to earn, sitting at an asset, $50,000–$60,000 a year, managing a $45 million asset, you better bloody have a good business culture. You need to have room for them to grow, and they want to grow into more than just being a property manager. Maybe they want to be regional. Maybe they want to get into the executive office. If you don’t have that growth opportunity, combined with somewhat a decent pay, and then also the training wheels (I’ll call it), the training services and programs within the company, within the organization, to help those people blossom, really, what we as owners employ these property managers for is to go out into the market and find the best “eggs on the shelf” and form those eggs into great, successful, property managers so our assets can be successful. We look for a couple of things. When we do interview asset managers, we look at how many properties are they currently managing. How many units do they have on the contract? How long are they doing this for? We go and get references from other owners. How have working with ABC property company been? Have you enjoyed their reporting systems? Have you enjoyed their business culture or are they really transparent with you? There’s a lot of things out there that you need to be aware of when you’re hiring and sitting down and “dating” a property manager because you need to go and understand all the rigmaroles that go on with asset managing it. I hope that answered your question. Jason: Yeah. I would agree. I think one of the first things when a property management company comes to me that’s struggling to grow and to figure out how to grow the business, that I will tackle with them is helping them get clarity on that cultural piece. It’s never the thing that they think they need but it’s so critical and pivotal to the foundation of their business. It’s why clients can or cannot trust them. Helping them get clear on their personal why and then helping them get clear on the why their business exists, and to feed that personal why. One of my goals is to create this golden thread all the way from them, the business owner, the property management company, their why, through to the business why, through to the person with the rental property wants. If I can help them create that connection with each potential client, sales happen really quickly. Deals happen very easily because there’s a golden thread of trust between what the person wants and what the business owner wants, the property manager wants. They can see that. It’s transparent. That’s so critical and we have to have culture. It has to exist in order for that to happen. If your team can sense that and can see that, then you’re able to attract A-players. B-players are not going to stay in a company without good culture. Especially millennials and Gen Z, they’re not going to work in a situation in which they’re just getting paid to do something that keeps them miserable. They want purpose. They want meaning. You’ll see a lot of dinosaurs in the industry get really frustrated because they’re saying in business… Then there’s this trend of the “OK Boomer.” But the Boomers are like, “Well, we pay you, so just do the work. Do the freaking work.” That’s not how people want to live nowadays. It’s not just about hunkering down and doing work whether you’re miserable or not. People want purpose. Reed: You bring up a good point. This comes not [...] also rent a business culture, but how you run the business with OK Boomers and a historical way of smacking someone over the back of the head if they’d done it wrong. They’re the old school dinosaur ways of the ways managers work. We’ve come a long way and as much as we—I’m a Millennial, I’m on the early end of it—get criticized for not working and all that sort of stuff. Look at my track record. I come from Australia. For most people, I don’t want to swear on this podcast but you know what I’m going to say. Millennials also have created a lot of changes and disruptions in the way that we approach things and change through our thinking around it. That is really important. If you’re not willing to change and grow, then you’re going to be stagnant and someone’s going to eat you. Jason: [...] Xennial which is kind of Gen X and kind of Millennial, and sort of bridges the gap. I remember dialing phones with the rotary dial. Reed: I was born in 1986, so I still remember that. I remember my first mobile phone in Australia was actually when I was 18 years of age. It was the Nokia 3310 and it’s funny. Jason: I had the Blackberry and I’ve had just about every version of iPhone that’s existed. Reed: Exactly. Jason: I think there’s a big shift in culture. I think that if business owners of larger property management companies, the most successful companies, they all have culture. They all bring up culture. I think a lot of smaller property managers hear them talk about it and go, “I don’t get it. That doesn’t make sense.” Then you’ll see a lot of property managers get to maybe about 200–400 door category and this is where if they don’t have culture, they get stuck. I taught the second sand trap in property management. It’s because they don’t have culture, they’re not able to maintain and retain good staff, and they don’t have a clear vision, clear purpose, clear values, a clear mission statement or whatever you want to call it. There’s a disconnect, and they’re wondering, “Why can’t I just find good managers?” One of my business coaches said this, “If you don’t have the business that you dream of, you’re not yet the person that can run it yet.” I think that a lot of times, we as business owners externalize everything. “Oh, it’s the Millennials. Oh, it’s my marketing. Oh, it’s my website.” Really, I found that if I could get the business owner to see that it’s them and make changes, everything else changes by default. Reed: I have a similar business coach. You have to be a key person of influence in your industry. Whatever industry that is, if it’s property management, if it’s being a real estate investor/entrepreneur. I’m trying to attract investors to me, so I’m putting all the content out there. I’m sitting on this podcast right now, talking about the ins and outs of building business culture. It’s easy as humans to blame something else. It’s someone else’s fault. It’s this one’s fault. But that’s why as humans, we can’t stop learning. If you stop learning, you stop growing. If you stop growing, you’re dead. It’s really about that embracing of change. Ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore. If you don’t know something, go ahead and freaking learn it. If you don’t want to go do that, well then you’re dead in the water. That’s this whole mindset of changing the way in which we were historically taught to learn, grow, do business, manage people, expectations, and blah-blah-blah. We can get all into it, but it boils down to, you were right, you have to be a key person of influence in yourself. Your business is you. You are a business and you’ve got to start there. From that, people would want to feed off you, be around you, and then want to grow with you. If you don’t have that growth opportunity, you can’t attract better employees, better clients, and have better outputs for your company. I like this a lot. Jason: It certainly makes a lot of people uncomfortable, too. I get a lot of flack in it in this industry just for being a change bringer. Some people don’t like it. They don’t like that I’m not a property manager, I’m from outside, and I’m bringing change to this industry.  Reed: “You don’t grow, you don’t know.” Jason: Yeah, and for a while, I was kind of fearful of that fact. I thought, “Well, I’ll just stay in the background.” My business coach has consistently pushed me to get more and more uncomfortable as we were talking about earlier. Side question. You’ve got all this business in Austin which is so favorable and friendly to business because I’m legitimately looking to move to Austin. I’m seriously considering it. Why are you still in LA? Reed: Two things. The beach and my wife’s family are from here. Jason: Oh, yeah. Reed: But it’s insane. I set up my company to be a life by design company. It’s me and my business partner and I’ve got a couple of other small employees. I still outsource the general contracting. I still outsource the property management. As we grow, we have 17,000 units now but a 150 million under management with our investors. We want to keep it lean. I’m Australian. I just got back from a 2½ week vacation. It wasn’t really a vacation, I was working every day, but I went to the Rugby World Cup in Japan. I was in Australia. If I have Internet, I want to work and my business partner’s completely aligned with me. We’ve always joked that if we ever need to get HR within the house, we’re done growing. Part of the business of owning multi-family real estate is what can I control? The engineer within me wants to control everything. It’s the business systems, it’s the ecosystems that you create that can truly create true wealth, but like property management, do I want to go off and create a property management company? I know how much property management is a thankless job. I was literally sitting in my property management company’s head office in Austin the other day, beating him over the head about budgets in 2020. Literally beating him over the head. And having clashes with upper management, that they’re saying stuff in these meetings that should have been prepared, so I’ve just literally experienced it with, and that’s got nothing to do with property management. That has got to do with how you manage your people. Some people come into the meeting not prepared for budget review. I literally flew in from LA. What else are we going to do? The expectation is I’m sitting here ready to review budgets with you and you don’t know if these are baked yet. There are all these things that go on with any corporation, that you got to make sure you have your systems in place the hierarchy, and to your point before that, the old dinosaurs, there’s a couple of old dinosaurs in that organization that we have to get a bit of feathers ruffled, but you got at those honest conversations because I am the client and I do expect things to be presented in a certain way. And that’s regardless of the fact that there’s a property management company. Jason: Okay. What did you notice difference-wise between the Australian market? I would imagine you’re still connected to that. We get a lot of Aussies coming over here, where property management is very well-seasoned in Australia. We talk about a property manager as a household word, like a realtor is here, like people know what property management is over there is not as common here. Stats like 80% of single family residential rentals there are professionally managed by property managers. The US is nothing like that yet. What is your perception on the differences between the US market and the Australian market when it comes to real estate investing, rentals, and property management? Reed: I’m going to answer your first question first. This is because I’ve got a different lens on. Yes, you’re correct. My dad has an investment property and he has a property manager. When they say property manager, they’re really a real estate brokerage company that does sales for new homes. To keep the ecosystem going and the lights on when the market’s crap, they do single family rentals or vacation rentals, something like that. So that’s definitely well-baked. What isn’t well-baked? In Australia, we don’t have the per the construction way of financing set up in Australia. We don’t have large multi-family. I moved to the United States and I, as a 29-year old, bought a 150-unit complex. I would never have had the opportunity to do that in Australia because the way in which the financing is set up is that, it’s a condo market. Before it goes into construction, they need to pre-sell X amount of units before it goes under construction. We have all this condominium market. Within the condominiums, you might get ABC property manager to manage one of the units and you have someone completely different managing the other unit. Unlike here in the States where if I go to Texas, there’s a leasing center and I walk into the leasing center because one entity owns the entire thing. One thing really missing from the Australian market is in [...] the commercial property management game. I just mentioned the other day in the corporate office of my PM firm, is like, “Guys, there’s an opportunity to go to Australia and start this out as multi-family starts to have more traction.” I see this as the opposite, that in the commercial multi-family space, America has it dialed in. It’s a true business. I know universities offering degrees in property management now, whereas in Australia, because we don’t have that commercial multi-family space, you haven’t driven that professionalism that I’ve come to expect here. Again, I’m not in the single family world as much you plug in both here or in Australia, so I can’t comment as much on that, but just from the large multi-family commercial space, Australia is very mid-90s, like the Internet was in the mid-90s. No one really understood what it was, so that change. Does that answer your question? Jason: Yeah, very much. That’s very interesting. I love hearing about the contrast, because contrast gives us perspective here in the US. As far as investing in the US, what are some of the most common questions that people ask you when they hear about what you do, they’re curious, and they’re interested (maybe) getting into this? Reed: From a high level, it doesn’t break down what the United States is. I’m going to compare to other western countries, so Australia, Europe, and Canada to some extent. I’m just going to break it down to Australia because I’m from Australia. You guys have 300 million people who live in this country. You are the king of capitalism. You guys have this financing options up the wazoo. You’ve got thousands and thousands of financing options. With a large population, you have forced and you can inhabit north, south, east, west. You can pretty much inhabit the entire land mass. You force these what I call secondary markets. You have the New Yorks, the LAs, the San Franciscos, the Chicagos of the world, where people want destination cities. But then, because of the population and where jobs are being driven to, you have these secondary and tertiary markets. Through secondary and tertiary markets, you have more affordability. And that’s purely driven from a population point of view because you just got so many people. Compare that to Australia, we got the same land mass as America (excluding Alaska, we roughly got the same land mass), but we only have 25 or 26 million people. We have not even one-tenth of the population of what you guys have. America has this really weird, awesomeness of having so much population, so much affordability, it drives cash flow. But there’s also appreciation, it’s got a ton of pro-business, all these things and you compare it to other first world countries. We don’t have the cap rates that you guys have. You look at Charlotte, North Carolina or Austin. Historically was a seven- or eight-cap market. It’s now transition into these very low digit sort of four-fives. You compare that to Sydney, Brisbane, London, or Hong Kong where commercial real estate and real estate in general where cap rates have been like 1% and 2% because the supply and demand is forced to go that low. So, there’s these still pockets of growth in America where, because you can inhabit all these different parts of the country and through job growth, that you guys have these awesome opportunities for investing, and that’s where a lot of people have heard about it, where you’re cash flowing in the States. You got appreciation and all these great financing options. It’s also the US dollar, like where do I come? Where do I sign up? A lot of people hear about it internationally, and they come and want to invest here. That’s why I started investing in the US, and it was more of an idea of my journey, about how I’ve got started because when I first moved here, I had no idea what a credit score was. I had no idea what an LLC was. I had to learn all that stuff. Jason: All right. I think there’s an advantage of doing that. There’s an advantage in coming into an industry or into a market with no experience in it because your eyes are wide open. Nothing’s assumed, you have to learn everything from the ground up. That’s been my experience coming into the property management industry. There were so many things that I looked at and said why is everyone doing it that way? Why are people doing it like that? That doesn’t make sense to me. And why is pay rent the largest called action on their website when they want more owners and that’s the primary goal with this website? There’s this disconnect and I think that’s the advantage of coming in with this outside perspective. You coming into this, what do you think Americans are missing? That they just assume? That has given you this advantage? Because you’re doing obviously quite well. Reed: And thanks to America, I have been doing quite well. Let’s not get any wrong here like I haven’t made money in Australia. People ask me, “How do you make money in real estate?” I’ve never purchased anything in Australia. I got my fishing lines in the water out there, but until I actually go and do something, my whole portfolio is here in the United States. You are correct. Perspective is the difference between what gives me an advantage over someone else. A lot of the American ethos is being around, “I got to go to school, I get this huge debt, I can’t go traveling after university because I got this debt, and then I will get no job. Once I’m in a job, I can’t leave, I’ve got a 401(k).” All of a sudden, you’re 65 and like, “What the hell just happened?” As Australians, it’s in our DNA to go traveling. I didn’t come out of university with six figures of debt. It was absolutely more socialistic society back down in Australia, but that it allowed me to travel the world in open and give me that perspective so I can, when I move here, I can see an opportunity to go invest in America, I’m going to take those with two hands because I can see the opportunities compared to where I come from, how cash flow is so much more prevalent here. The barriers to entry into the United States market from a real estate investing perspective are so much lower than Australia. I can see a lot of people like that, a lot of international folks like that. The message I have for the American folks is realize what’s in your backyard. Don’t be ignorant. I’m telling you this for a reason. Perspective is good. Listen to what I’m saying. Go out and educate yourself on what is in your backyard, what is in the state across from you, or in an affordable market where you can start buying and investing. Ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore. I’ve said that earlier in the show. It’s really true that if you stop learning, you stop growing, and I think that’s what people get in there. Not just Americans. I’ve got Aussie mates back in my hometown, they’ve not left. They’re in that same blinkers on type of scenario. Not that that’s an issue, which is that if you want to understand the benefits of real estate investing, then get out of your own way sometimes and just start going out and educating yourself on what’s in your backyard. Jason: What would be a good place to start with getting education towards this? Reed: Well, sitting here right now talking about it, listening to your show. I still remember when I moved to the United States, I was going to real estate investment seminars made up in Aussie, and I remember being pitched to pay $10,000–$20,000 for a guru to help me teach everything. Then, when I got to the States, particularly in New York, the Big Apple, the firehose of information, it was all readily available at my fingertips. Websites, podcasts, books, meet-up events.  You don’t have to spend a lot of money, but at the end of the day, you do have to spend time. If you don’t want to spend the money investing in yourself or the time, then you’re never going to go anywhere. You got to understand that this is an investment in yourself. So, I would start by listening to podcasts. They’re free. Picking up a couple of books that can start educating you on whatever niche you want to get involved with, with real estate. Maybe just financial education and literacy that you need to be sharper on. Join a local meet-up group for real estate. I encourage everyone listening to the show, if you don’t have any experience, if you go to two meet-ups a month for the next six months, that’s 12 meet-ups. I bet your bottom dollar and I bet you $100 that they will know, or they would have created a circle around them, more knowledgeable than they were listening to the show today. It’s about getting out there, being willing to pick-up a book, being willing to say, “Hey, it’s okay that I don’t know what this is about, but I’m willing to learn.” I’m an example of that. I’m self-taught, I went to university with structural engineering, and now I run a multi-million dollar investment firm. You can change. The real advice is that we are in the digital age. It’s all at our fingertips. Go out, start investing yourself from an education perspective, and you will see change. Jason: Reed, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. How can people get more information from you as to what you’re up to or get plugged into whatever you’ve got going on? Reed: Simplest way, go to my website. It’s reedgoossens.com. I live in Los Angeles. If anyone wants to hit me up for a beer, coffee, or lunch, just shoot me an email at info@reedgoossens.com. You can check it out all there. Find the podcast, find the books, find the videos. It’s all there, so have fun. Jason: All right. Hey, thanks for coming on the show, and like Reed said, start getting involved in investing. Just start, right? There’s this power in just getting started. Set that intention, start going to some meet-up groups. You can check out meetup.com. You can check out Facebook groups, there are all kinds of resources available, and maybe you’ll find your passion the way Reed has. Reed, I appreciate you. Reed: Thank you so much for having me on the show, Jason. I really appreciate it. Jason: It’s been a pleasure. All right, so if you are a property management entrepreneur and you’re wanting doors, then reach out. We’ve got some cool programs that we’re adding to our lineup of what we’re doing. We’re really excited about something new that we’re launching, the DoorGrow Referral Amplifier that Jay Berube and I are doing, so make sure you check that out. He is an amazing entrepreneur, one of my clients that was able to close and acquire over 300 doors into this property management portfolio from ground zero in Florida in about two years. He did it largely through outbound, reach out to agents for referrals, and he systemized this. He’s now even got VAs helping do this for him. He runs his company remotely from another state now, and it’s still growing. So, reach out and check us out if you’re interested in this. By the time this airs on iTunes, it will probably already be filled. We’ve only got 20 seats, so if you’re watching this live, then get in. We’ve already sold about half the seats already, and we haven’t even announced it publicly. I’m just throwing it out there now. Get in before we close out the remaining 10 seats. Bye everyone.

This episode, we’re talking about people who are coming to Pittsburgh, whether it’s for work or just visiting.We’ll break down a report that suggests the city might be a better fit for tech workers than the mecca of the digital economy, Silicon Valley (gotta love our standard of living). We’re also talking about a recent article that probes the need for a new hotel at the convention center. (Hint: The answer isn’t very simple.)In between, we welcome the Breaking Brews Podcast’s host Jason Cercone for a chat about the business of beer and Pittsburgh’s place in the industry.This episode is sponsored by WordWrite:Centuries before cellphones and social media, human connections were made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts, minds and inspire action.At WordWrite, Pittsburgh’s largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story – the reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented StoryCrafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S story.Logan:You are listening to the P100 podcast, the bi-weekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story. Logan:Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the P100 podcast. You're here with myself, Logan Armstrong, and co-hosts Dan Stefano and Paul Furiga. Guys, how are you doing?Paul:Great, Logan.Dan:Emphasis on the co-host there. You're the host with the mostest there.Logan:I try to be. I do what I can, but-Paul:Yes he does and he does it well.Logan:I get my mostest from the people I'm surrounded with. On today's episode, we're going to be examining tech jobs in Pittsburgh, and there have been a few recent articles for some vying to leave and some vying to stay that you may have seen. So we're going to be talking about that and seeing how Pittsburgh ranks compared with cities and metros around the country in tech jobs.Logan:Then we're going to bring in our good friend Jason Cercone from the Breaking Brews podcast. He takes a drink from breaking, excuse me. He takes a break from drinking beer and talks about the business side of it.Paul:Wait a minute, that wasn't in this segment. There was no beer drinking?Logan:Unfortunately no.Logan:We asked him about it and he said that he'd be happy to rejoin us.Dan:Logan, let's remember we're talking to the CEO of our company within the office, so no. There's no-Paul:Well that's fine. Let's chat.Dan:We don't have a video of this, but if you could see the winking eye. No, there is no-Logan:No beer during this segment.Dan:Drinking during this segment.Paul:Of course not.Logan:Okay, and then finally we're going to wrap up with what's missing from downtown.Paul:Oh.Logan:Indeed, mysterious.Paul:Question.Logan:That's right. You'll have to stick around to see what we're talking about, but we're in for a great episode so we hope you stick around.Dan:I hope it's not my car or anything.Paul:Okay guys, time to do one of our favorite things on the podcast. Talk about Pittsburgh getting another great national ranking.Dan:Another list, right?Paul:We're on another list.Dan:Yeah.Paul:This one's a good one. Although, if you're in the Silicon Valley area, maybe not so good.Dan:Right.Paul:A couple of weeks ago, Wallet Hub, which is an online service provider that looks at financial things, very popular with millennials.Dan:They make many lists.Paul:They make many lists of many different things. Top places to live in the country for tech workers. Pittsburgh, number five. Silicon Valley, not so high, which caused the San Jose Mercury News, which San Jose's a community that's smack in the middle of Silicon Valley, to write sort of a cheeky little article. Pittsburgh is better for tech workers than Silicon Valley? Question mark. Well, yes, if you want to live affordably, apparently it actually is.Dan:That's completely accurate. Yeah. The Bay Area, it's got to be one of the highest costs of living-Paul:It is actually.Dan:In the country.Paul:It has the highest cost of living in the country. And Logan, you were looking inside some of the rankings, and Pittsburgh ranked in the top 15 in a number of categories, right?Logan:Yes. So the three categories were professional opportunities, STEM friendliness, and quality of life. And Pittsburgh ranked 13th, 14th, and 11th in those, respectively. And some of the reasons that places like San Francisco and the Bay Area didn't rank so highly is that they would rank very high in one or two of these categories. So for example, San Francisco ranked third in both professional opportunities and STEM friendliness but then ranked 63rd in quality of life for reasons we were alluding to earlier. So it's good to see that Pittsburgh ranked in these lists as being as an all around. Maybe it's not top five or the best in STEM friendliness or professional opportunities, but it's well-rounded and our quality of life here is, according to this list, far better than some of our counterparts.Paul:And certainly as the community here has continued to transform, and I'm thinking now of Uber, and Apptive, and Apple's got a good presence in the city. Facebook's virtual reality company, Oculus, is wholly sited here in the Pittsburgh region. We're trying to attract more tech workers and we've got these great university programs, CMU and Pitt at the head of the pack, but others as well, where we're building this tech community. And I guess it does still surprise people in the more traditional communities, but it's legit. There's something going on here.Dan:Right. For better or worse, Pittsburgh will always kind of bring that blue collar atmosphere, that blue collar mentality, a bit rough around the edges. I talk about it all the time, but my wife's family, who, they grew up in California, they all lived in California for a while. They came to Pittsburgh here and they said, "Wow, I had no idea it was this green." So there's always going to be a bit of a stigma that the city carries around, but I think these lists show that to that the news is catching on here. And Pittsburgh is basically known now for the meds and eds and now tech. The reputation is definitely growing here and starting to overcome that stigma.Paul:That perception.Dan:Yeah. But there's ... Well, not to be Debbie Downer or play devil's advocate here, there are still the legacies of that history here that carries on, especially in our environment.Paul:Yeah. We still have work to do, that's for sure. I can remember when I first moved back to this region from the Washington DC area. I had a job in the south side and what is now South Side Works was still a working steel mill, and as I would drive across the Birmingham Bridge every morning, the smell of burning coke was my appetizer before breakfast.Logan:Morning coffee.Dan:That'll wake you.Paul:And there's been plenty of coverage, and legitimately so, that we still have environmental problems in the region. And certainly one of the reasons why the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, is disadvantaged on a list like this, is because there's such a huge economic disparity there. It's the most expensive metropolitan area in the country. Ours is not. Part of the reason Pittsburgh's so affordable, the collapse of the steel industry and heavy industry. So there's all this housing stock and we didn't have the kind of inflation maybe that a place on the coast like San Francisco has had, but we have economic disparity too, and that's something that we have to work on too.Dan:Right. I think that's being recognized now. We talked about a couple episodes ago here, that the city is starting to take a hard look at itself, especially in terms of the racial inequalities that exist here.Paul:Yes.Dan:Again, the three of us aren't the best people to speak to this. We don't live the same experiences that a lot of people do in this city, but we can play a role by listening and being active and playing a part in recognizing that. And trying to create opportunities, being part of the solutions here. It's going to take a long time for Pittsburgh to completely shrug off some of the legacies that came from the 20th century here, some of the stuff that might be dragging down the city, but we can do it.Paul:We absolutely can. And if we can, we'll put in the show notes, there have been a couple of interesting public source articles that have dug into some of these issues, and I was reading-Dan:Quite a battle in tech, here.Paul:It was a battle in tech, and there's one written by a fellow named Noah Theriault, I believe that's how his name is pronounced, and he's at CMU. And the conclusion of this article, which you found, Dan, I thought was really interesting. He said "Here many of us who come here for opportunities in the city's universities, hospitals, and tech firms, do so in a state of willful ignorance. We take advantage of the low cost of living, we relish the walkability of the neighborhoods. We gentrify. Many of us smugly believe that we are the city's rebirth, the salvation from rust and blight. Too few of us learn about the historical and ongoing realities that make it most livable." And I think that's something that's really at the heart of what we need to remember. It's great to be on lists like this, but really there is no Nirvana -Dan:Right?Paul:That exists among places to live in this country. We have work to do too.Dan:It's hard to put a number on somebody's personal experiences here. I think that's the crux of what you were talking about there.Paul:Exactly. Exactly.Dan:All right. We're here with Jason Cercone. He's the chief brand officer at Breaking Brews, also the founder there and they're a content network and digital resource platform for people in the beer industry. Not only that, he hosts the Breaking Brews podcast, which takes a pretty unique look at the beer industry. They focus a lot on the business side of things. So Jason, thanks for being here.Jason:Thanks for having me guys.Dan:Awesome. Okay. As we mentioned, what you like to do with Breaking Brews your podcast and kind of spins off of your business. You look at a pretty different side of things in the spirits industry, in the alcohol industry there, that people don't think of all the time and that's actually selling the stuff and getting it out there, right? Yeah.Jason:Yeah. What I discovered was there are a lot of podcasts dedicated to drinking beer and reviewing and having fun and those podcasts are all great, but I wanted to bring something different to the podcast world. And I started looking at the fact that we don't have a ton of podcasts that are dedicated to the business side. Which talks about sales and marketing and distribution, all those different facets that are very important and very critical to the beer world. That was where it really started to ... or where I really started to make it take off. And I talked to a lot of industry professionals that felt the same way. They said when they're cleaning kegs and doing some of the horrible work that goes on in the brew houses that they want to put on a good podcast and listen to something that they can learn from, and that was the resource I wanted to put out there for them.Dan:Right, well the industry's really exploded as far as the craft production or the craft beer segment goes. I think ... I'm just looking at some facts here from the Brewer's Association, retail sale dollars of craft beer in 2018, I think the most recent year of stats was $27.6 billion. You said you've seen that since you started the Breaking Brews podcast yourself, you started about four years ago, or is that just your business?Jason:Breaking Brews itself started back in 2014. This is actually my third iteration of a podcast. I actually did one, like I was saying before, where we just sat around and drank beer, and that got old after a while.Dan:Why aren't we doing that right now?Jason:That's a very good question. I know. I was quizzed on that when I walked in the door, why I didn't bring beer and I'm starting to regret that.Dan:We'll just have our first kegger podcast, here.Logan:Yeah, well that'd make for some good conversation, that's for sure.Dan:That's a great idea.Jason:I'm always happy to come back for a second round if you guys want me to bring some-Dan:Right.Jason:Good drinks.Dan:Great idea. But yeah, as we were talking about the industry is just enormous right now. We're seeing that too in Pittsburgh, right?Jason:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean when I started things in 2014, there was probably maybe a dozen local craft breweries and now you look at the landscape, there's over 50 throughout the region. It's incredible. So many of them are doing great products and getting it out to bars around the area and also creating an awesome taproom experience too.Dan:Why do you think that is?Jason:Pittsburgh loves its beer, man.Dan:Yeah.Jason:But overall I think that ... I mean we haven't ... we hear the talk about the bubble a lot and has craft beer reached its saturation point. And I've always been a firm believer that we haven't even come close because we're not even close to the number that we had, or number of breweries we had before prohibition.Dan:Yeah.Jason:I mean we're creeping up, we're getting close, but the population of all these different cities and states across the country is so much higher. And when I go out to events and I do samplings and I talk to beer drinkers, a lot of folks still really aren't aware of what's going on in the craft beer industry. So there's still a lot of education that we can provide and that was one of the main drivers of Breaking Brews was putting some education out there so people can better understand what's going on in the industry and what's going on with these products.Logan:That's an interesting benchmark that you mentioned there that the number of brewers before the prohibition. Is that a common milestone in the craft beer business? And are there things that were happening back then that are happening now? The same way?Jason:I think it's, it's obviously changed a lot in regards to how beer is made. Brewers have pushed the envelope to the furthest degree possible and then a little bit more. You see a lot of crazy ingredients going into beers that probably pre-prohibition they weren't putting donuts into stouts and Twinkies-Logan:What were they doing?Jason:Breakfast cereal. I know it's like they weren't living their best life at all. However, a lot has changed. It's just the question of people's tastes have changed too and it's what do they want? And that's what these brewers are constantly trying to stay on top of, is what does the beer consumer want to drink today? And that's why I think you see such a variety out there in the market.Dan:Is it fair to say that it's easier to start a brewery round now or at least, somebody can be in their basement and actually trying to kickstart their own beer?Jason:That's probably the biggest misconception is that it's so easy to start a brewery because it's like any other business.Dan:Look, I've seen the Drew Carey show and he had a brewery in his basement. I know how this works .Jason:That's one of the big problems when you see some of these breweries that come out and their beer really isn't that great. They're standing around with their friends in a circle and all their friends are drinking their beer saying, "This is the best beer I've ever had. You need to start a brewery." And that's all well and good, but if they don't have a business sense that goes along with making a good product or even a subpar product, if they don't manage it properly, it's just not going to succeed. So it's just like anything else. I think that the barriers to entry are a little bit less because a lot of people have done it, but the smart thing to do would be go into it knowing that it's a business and you have to do all the things that you would normally do to run a business, or partner with somebody that can handle that end of your business for you.Logan:Partner with someone like Jason, Jason Cercone.Jason:I am for hire. I am here if anybody needs assistance. I'd be happy to help.Dan:Have you ever, you yourself, have you ever actually started ... Well maybe not started your own brewery, but have you ever brewed your own drafts?Jason:I've partnered and done some collaboration beers with a few different breweries across town. I did an event last year where I partnered with Yellow Bridge Brewing out in Delmont. I just went out and brewed with them for the day and I was able to say that I helped and I call that a collaboration. And I've done that with a couple of other breweries too. And that's fun. I mean that's the brewing side of it for me. I've always been more of a beer drinker and I like to obviously talk about it and promote it and market it. Brewing it just wasn't really something I wanted to do full time. It's a hard job. I think that's where a lot of people look at that like a glamorous thing and brewers will tell you, those are long days. It's very industrial and they work their asses off to put together a good product. End of the day, they are dog tired.Dan:Sure.Jason:So yeah, important. If you're going to be a brewer, know you'll be working hard.Dan:Right. We talk about hard work there. We're talking about having a good business sense. What do you see are some of the secrets to say these successful craft brewers and the people that maybe ... even some of these breweries that say are smaller, let's think about Southern Tier years ago, nobody knew who they were. Now they've got their own brewery on the North shore and what are some of the secrets to some of these businesses that have made it?Jason:I think it's understanding how to grow and being very deliberate about it and not trying to just shoot the moon right out of the gate. Obviously you have to establish a loyal fan base and make good product at the same time. But if you try to go too heavy, if you're a small local brewery and you try to make a statewide distribution, your number one priority, chances are you're not going to succeed because you don't have the liquid to supply the markets. So there's a lot of different aspects that you have to look at, but probably the most important is to use a popular phrase of our time, stay in your lane, and understand what it takes to build that brand from the ground up.Jason:Don't try to get too far ahead of yourself before you're ready. And then once the time comes where you've established that brand, then you can start looking at ... popular thing now other than distribution is looking at secondary spaces. We're starting to see some breweries in the Pittsburgh area open up secondary spots so they've proven that their brand is good enough to support it and we wish them the best in carrying that out.Dan:Who would you point to as some really good success stories in the Pittsburgh area then and what they've done successfully?Jason:Oh man, that list is long.Dan:Yep.Jason:Yeah. One of the breweries that I work with, the Spoonwood brewing in Bethel Park.Dan:I was there just this weekend.Jason:Awesome. What'd you think?Dan:I loved it. It was my second time there. I had a great time.Jason:Yeah, they're doing great beer. Great food. It's a great tap room atmosphere. You really can't ask for much more than that. They've been ... they're coming up on five years.Dan:Wow.Jason:And I've been working with them since pretty much the beginning and we've been building that brand and we don't do a ton of distribution, but a lot of the beer that we put out there ultimately was just to build that brand and give people an opportunity to taste it. To where they might say, "Wow, this is in Bethel Park. I'm going to go down there and see what else they have to offer." Another brewery I work with is Four Points Brewing out of Charleroi. They've ... just under two years old at this point, actually just about a year and a half now and they're killing it. They're doing some great beer and then you've got a lot of the names that people hear of all the time, like your Grist Houses and your Dancing Gnomes and Voodoos and Hitchhikers of the world. Again, we could sit here and do a whole podcast where I just rattle off the list because there's a lot of good beer happening.Dan:Well, you're in luck, our next segment, we're going to list breweries for the next 25 minutes. All right.Jason:Yeah. Close off with reading the phone book.Dan:Exactly.Jason:Riveting radio.Logan:Now you've learned a lot of these techniques and methods. You have over 20 years’ experience in marketing and sales. Did that start off in beer, or and if not, how did you navigate into the beer industry from that?Jason:That was ... I mean that was broken compasses for days, man, that was ... No, it did not start in beer. I've been working in the beer industry – counting what I did with starting Breaking Brews – for going on six years now. I sold cell phones right out of college, landed at Enterprise-Rent-a-Car for several years after that. Ran Hair Club for Men here in Pittsburgh for about four years. And with Breaking Brews, when I started it, it was ultimately just to build something that I felt was a good resource that could teach people how to gravitate to these beers in a very approachable way. Because as I learned, a lot of people just weren't aware of what was happening around them. So I was able to parlay my skillset from all my years in the professional world into a business that now I can help the breweries and help the different businesses that I work with do sales and marketing and create a good customer experience. All those good things, all things that are very important to building a good brand.Dan:Bring it back a little bit locally here to ... Pittsburgh I feel like is ... we've got a pretty special relationship to beer here. And it's some pretty big names in terms of, you think of Iron City, Duquesne, there's obviously Rolling Rock used to be around. How do you feel like the city's adopted and adapted to this craft brewing? I don't know if you could call it a Renaissance because it hasn't been around until right now, but this upsurge right now that people are ... they are doing with craft brewing.Jason:Yeah I think with the breweries now, I mean obviously as we spoke about earlier, we've got over 50 across the region now. It says a lot for the fact that people are going to go to a good brewery regardless of where they're at. It's become very neighborhood centric where you look like an old neighborhood pub, that's in some respects, being replaced by the local neighborhood brewery. You're seeing them essentially on every corner, quote unquote. And I think that helps with the fact that these guys are able to grow their brands so well because then it expands beyond their neighborhood as well. But yeah, we have a very rich history here in Pittsburgh with beer going back years and years back to ... I mean, Iron City was the beer.Jason:And I think now you're starting to see more of a shift towards the craft brands and many of them have been here for ... You look at East End, they've been here for 15 plus years now and they really were setting some good trends for what could happen and how people could gravitate towards a craft brand. Same with Penn Brewery. I believe 1986, was when they hit the scene. So a lot of good things have come along that have really helped push it forward. And now Pittsburgh is becoming one of those hot beds and I shouldn't say becoming it already is. And probably our closest rival in the state, just like everything else, is Philadelphia. And I think both of us have a tremendous beer scene that we can be proud of.Dan:Yeah. I think if you ever see a Penguins, Flyers game, it looks like more than a few people have beers.Jason:Well now, you see breweries have gotten in with the rivalries, like Grist House, and I'm forgetting the brewery that they partnered with out of Cleveland, they did a Browns, Steelers rivalry beer.Dan:Oh did they really?Jason:Rivertowne and Sly Fox had partnered up a couple of years ago for the stadium series. And they did a ... Glove Dropper was the name of the beer. And they worked together on that and sold it in both markets and worked out really well.Dan:All right Jason, well thanks so much for being here with us, for everybody at home. If you're listening, make sure to visit. If you're interested at all about starting a brewery and perhaps finding ways to market it and get it out to the world, you can go to breakingbrews.com. Look for Jason Cercone and also look for Breaking Brews podcast. You can find that on all the major platforms including Apple podcast, Stitcher, Google play, Spotify, iHeart, all the big ones where you can find us. And Jason, thanks so much for being here.Jason:Thanks again guys. Appreciate it.Logan:Sure thing.Dan:Great.Logan:Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest, or partner with you through our patented story crafting process, visit WordWritePR.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Paul:It's now time to talk about the biggest building that is not in the downtown skyline. We are talking about what is known in the travel trade as a headquarters hotel. In other words, if Pittsburgh were to host a very large convention, a large hotel would be designated as the headquarters hotel. In many cities, this is a large hotel that's attached to the convention center.Dan:Right.Paul:And that typically has somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand rooms.Dan:Right.Paul:Pittsburgh – yinz don't have one of those n’at.Dan:Oh, they do have a hotel connected to the convention center, right?Paul:Yes, yes. We do the Weston and actually Dan, I'm glad you mentioned that.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Because in the original plans for the convention center development, that hotel was supposed to be about twice as big as it is and if it were, it would be the size of a headquarters hotel.Dan:Sure. Well, I think that is, it's interesting that you're bringing this up and I think we rewind a little bit. The reason we're bringing this up is, on February 3rd, in the Post-Gazette, Craig Davis, who used to be the CEO of Visit Pittsburgh.Paul:Yes.Dan:Yeah. Visit Pittsburgh is the local-Paul:It's the Convention and Visitor's Bureau in part supported byPaul:Our tax funds and they promote the city to businesses like conventions.Dan:Right, yeah.Paul:But also to leisure travelers.Dan:Draw people into the city. Yeah, it's important. Yeah. This article, what it did with, again with Craig Davis here, he had a piece of parting advice for Pittsburgh is how Mark Belko, the writer introduced this and he did a really nice job with this piece. Craig wanted to build a convention center hotel.Paul:Right.Dan:And that's what we're talking about here. And there's a lot of back and forth about whether it should be done, whether ... what kind of impact it would bring on the city here. And he had some really good information about it, yourself, but a lot of people, they want to see more here. And that's what we're talking about today.Paul:Right. So in the tourism and convention industry in Pittsburgh, this is the third rail of politics. Nobody really wants to talk about it. And I look at this article in the Post-Gazette, Visit Pittsburgh, great organization. Craig Davis, very effective leader and he's been hired to run a similar organization in Dallas. Smart person. He's in Dallas now, so he can kind of say, what maybe he couldn't say before when he was in Pittsburgh. And for people in his business, his line of work, you need to have a convention center hotel. The thing is, to build that would cost about, Oh, kind of like the same amount of money to build PNC Park or Heinz Field.Dan:Right? Yeah. In this article here, they have an estimate of $350,000 to $400,000 a room to build.Paul:Or in other words-Dan:That's all.Paul:Yeah. $240 million.Dan:Right. That's for a 600-room hotel.Paul:Exactly.Dan:Yeah.Paul:It's a lot of money. And it was not easy to get PNC Park and Heinz Field built. There was actually a referendum on the ballot one year that failed. It was called the Regional Renaissance Initiative. I mean we put renaissance in the name of everything, don't we? And it was after that, that a deal was brokered. A lot of critics said behind closed doors and smoke-filled back rooms that wound up producing Heinz Field and PNC Park. There doesn't seem to be a lot of political appetite for spending that kind of money, again.Dan:Right.Paul:On something like a convention center hotel.Dan:Again here, Mark did a great job with this article here and he put it pretty succinctly here. He said, "In recent years, Davis' pitch has landed with all of the enthusiasm of a root canal."Paul:Yes.Dan:I don't know about you guys, I get too enthusiastic over root canals, but I suppose not many other people do, but the article does bring up a good point. That there's been a recent hotel building boom in the region, in the downtown area, particularly across the river. Some other smaller hotels that have cropped up here and there, the Marriotts and whatnot.Paul:Many. You could throw a rock from where we sit right now, we can hit the Monaco.Dan:Absolutely, yeah.Paul:Throw it across the way, hit the Embassy Suites. We've got the William Penn, which has been here for a long time. The Drury is in the old federal reserve building.Dan:Right and that's just a block away from the convention center. But the kind of full service hotel that, again, this is from the article here that Mr. Davis would see here, that would require huge public subsidies. And that's-Paul:Yes.Dan:I think the sticking point that it comes down to.Paul:That is the third rail part.Dan:Whether we want this here and I think it's one of those things where you balance. You say, "How much are these conventions going to be worth compared to the costs, the investments that you have to make in a city here." And it could take a while until the scales tip one way.Paul:Well, and what's very interesting about this is, there are statistics, there don't seem to be any statistics readily available to say, "Yes, Pittsburgh, you should do this." What we tend to fall back on, are a couple of really great seminal events. First was the Bassmaster Classic several years ago. And still of course people who don't know Pittsburgh want to depict it as a smoky mill town. And we had this freshwater national competition for bass fishing. And it went off really great. And that's led, as Mark Belko's article points out to Visit Pittsburgh getting into seeking sports events. And we've had, I can't believe this, I didn't even realize this number, 22 NCAA championship events have been held in Pittsburgh and we've got more coming.Dan:Yeah. Just recently they had the National Women's Volleyball championship out here.Paul:Yeah.Dan:And I think a big part of that comes down to, they now have a world-class arena to do it in.Paul:Yes.Dan:Where Civic Arena definitely showed its age after a while.Paul:Right.Dan:That plays a different part here. But certainly the downtown hotel building boom assists with that.Paul:Absolutely. Absolutely.Dan:Convention centers is ... that's a little different. And again, I think what, Craig Davis is trying to say here is, having it connected to the convention center, people love that. It's very convenient just to grab an elevator, have a little sky walk over to the convention center. It's not always a feasible immediately though, it's nice to think of these things, but it's hard to find room for it. And whether you're going to supplement what is already there or again, it takes money.Paul:Well, my point about Bassmaster, the other thing that happened of course was the G20 in 2009. Those two events put Pittsburgh, reputation-wise, on a world stage. In the article, Mark Belko talks about Milwaukee, which is a nice enough town and they have a baseball team that has a better record over the last decade of a postseason-Dan:They spend more than the Buccos, but that's a-Paul:They do.Dan:That's a whole other podcast.Paul:However, in terms of the hotel market, not quite the same size as Pittsburgh and they're getting the Democratic convention this year.Dan:Absolutely.Paul:Why does Pittsburgh not have that sort of convention? And if we did, aside from the monetary benefits of the convention itself, what would it do for the city in terms of raising the reputation even more and bringing more convention business to Pittsburgh? It's hard to say. It's also hard to argue that it was really cool to have Bassmaster or certainly the President and world leaders for the G20. That was awesome exposure for Pittsburgh. This is kind of a question of how much is the region willing to spend? And apparently it's going to have to spend something, in order to create that kind of environment.Dan:I think what's important when you look at these national conventions, particularly in the political arena, that is strategic by the parties too.Paul:Oh yes.Dan:Wisconsin's very important in this upcoming election to the Democrats. As is Pennsylvania.Paul:Right.Dan:But they were also in Philadelphia not that long ago, so do they want to spend so much more time in Pennsylvania and look, Wisconsin, the people ... whenever they do the Monday morning quarterbacking of that election, they did not spend all the time there. So it's ... they're showing ... it's a quite a statement that they are spending the time in Milwaukee for this upcoming convention. But it also shows that if Milwaukee can host something like this, then, so can Pittsburgh.Paul:Why not Pittsburgh, yeah.Dan:I think Pittsburgh actually held the very first Republican convention that was back in the 1860s or so. And we had the hotel rooms for that one, I guess. You know.Paul:We did.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Well, country was a little smaller then.Dan:Indeed. Yeah.Paul:Might be a difference, but I think this is a topic we're going to come back to again, so we wanted to put it out there for everybody. Again, props to Mark Belko and his article and the truth speaking, shall we say, of Craig Davis. We'll have to watch the skyline and see where this one goes.Dan:Well, most importantly, just as a final coda to this, and Mark's article did describe this a bit at the end, for the leaders that want to see this kind of change, that want to see a hotel down here, they have to show their work. It has to be ... You have to come to ... with studies from respected institutions, respected people, who are proving that, "Okay, hey, when Milwaukee hosted this type of thing, if they had a hotel here, this is the impact that they would have got."Dan:There are other areas here in Louisville and Columbus that are building hotels. What will those hotels do for their ability to draw conventions? Are they stealing them from Pittsburgh? You have to come up with that information. You have to present it to the leaders, not only in our government, but the community to approve ... like, "Hey, okay, some of tax dollars should go to this."Paul:Absolutely.Dan:And if you can do that, if you can convince enough people, then maybe it happens. But that stuff takes some time too.Paul:Well, and just a final thought on this since Craig Davis left Visit Pittsburgh, they are engaged in a search for a CEO. So I would expect that once a new CEO is named, one of the first things that we should be looking for, is some thinking around this topic.Dan:Absolutely.Logan:And we are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at p100podcast.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Twitter at Pittsburgh100_ for all the latest news updates and more from the Pittsburgh 100. 

In this edition of the Inside Carolina Podcast, host Tommy Ashley is joined by Jason Staples and Buck Sanders to dissect Carolina’s tough overtime loss to Pittsburgh in cold Heinz Field. Carolina once again, laid the game on Sam Howell’s shoulders and the freshman did all he could to engineer a comeback late but fell just short. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Well this is embarrassing! Apparently uploading episodes while very tired can result in posting the same episode twice...So here is the actual first part...Candace sits down with her Horror obsessed friend Calum to talk about the reason for the season. Maybe not the reason....but it is a really fun part of Halloween. Scary Movies! We discuss classic slashers, to the revival of horror, to fun stuff to watch with kids for Halloween. This episode we are down a co host, Canadian Thanksgiving meant Fabia was out of town. But fret not! She will be back at her mic for our next recording.Find us on Facebook & Instagram @woodbetweenworldspodcast | Twitter:@woodworlds | Email us with suggestions at twogirlsonemic@woodbetweenworldspodcast.com | Visit our website www.woodbetweenworldspodcast.com

From surfing waves to making waves by fixing exploding toilets for tenants—how an entrepreneur and creative technologist leveraged design to streamline simple solutions.  Today, I am talking to Mark Rojas, CEO and founder of the Proper app that streamlines the building repairs process. Mark has spent his career creating positive user experiences and adding value by solving problems related to efficiency and human connectivity.  You’ll Learn... [04:40] Definition of Design: Viewing how something works in the real world and creating a corresponding experience to make your life easier and more enjoyable. [05:34] Proper app idea originated with possibility of becoming an accidental landllord. [07:13] Maintenance is the bain of their existence. There’s got to be a better way to fix building repairs process and problems. [09:30] Maintenance is more than one issue. It involves many problems for many people.  [10:10] Lack of Communication: Leverage “chat room” to create efficient and effective dialogue between contractors, property managers, and tenants. [13:07] What makes Proper different? Visibility and shared platform for centralized communication between all participating people and places.  [14:50] Building Repairs Process: Submit image, describe problem, create work order, send notifications, add contractors, diagnosis issue, complete fix, submit/pay invoice. [19:50] Property Management Platforms: Proper’s integration and import/export plans for increased visibility for systematic way to save time and money while simplifying lives.  [22:42] Common Questions and Concerns: Is Proper app intuitive? Is training provided? [28:15] Future Feature: Email integration and aggregation to avoid duplicate data.  Tweetables Every elegant solution involves some element of intelligent design. Design isn’t all about pixels. It’s applied via various mediums by viewing how something works in the real world. Maintenance is the bain of a property manager’s existence.  First Step with Proper App: A picture is worth a 1,000 words, so describe the problem succinctly. Resources Proper Mark Rojas on LinkedIn Venice Art Crawl Buildium AppFolio Propertyware Intercom Help Scout GatherKudos DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today’s guest, I’m hanging out with Mark Rojas. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark: Hey, it’s good to see you again. Jason: Mark is coming to us from a company called Proper Chat, correct? Mark: That’s correct. Jason: Mark, I’ll read a little bit of your bio. It says you are the CEO and founder and it says, “While you might not think of hiring a designer to fix an exploding toilet, Mark Rojas still might be the man for the job. From starting his own surfboard manufacturing company at 16 to founding multiple tech companies focused on creating positive user experiences, Mark has spent his career working to add value by solving problems of efficiency, and human connectivity. An entrepreneur and creative technologist from Queens, Mark is the founder and CEO of Proper, an app designed to streamline the building repairs process. He first began befriending property managers while producing the Venice Art Crawl, a passion project that transformed vacant properties into temporary art showrooms (aka fun, free open houses). Shortly thereafter while subletting his apartment in 2017, Mark was blessed with the invigorating experience of needing to manage repairs for a bathroom explosion involving multiple tenants.” Why don’t you take us from there? Mark: That’s a good intro. Jason: I’ll let you tell the rest of the story. How did you get into this from surfboards? Mark: Surfboards was a little I went to when I was 16 years old, but that did throw me into design and ultimately product design. Right after college, my career quickly became into web development, app development, and working with a lot of startups here in the Bay Area, which is where we’re based out of, to leverage design to solve water problems. It came with the advent of mobile, really becoming this fast-growing platform, where your everyday user now is expecting this very seamless experience that is solving various problems we’re on. That transitioned from building a product, starting a company, and then continuing to wanting to build products for others. I think one of those things that continues to be a passion of mine is finding a problem and leveraging design to simplify, streamline it, and make everyone’s life better. Jason: I love it. That’s entrepreneurism in a nutshell. We see a problem and we’re crazy enough to think we can solve that problem. We can make money solving that problem and create a win-win. You love that you say that you focus on doing it through design because really, every elegant solution involves some sort of intelligent design, whether it’s a system, whether it’s something visual. People think design, they think it’s like graphic design or something creative. Mark: Yeah. I don’t think of design as just pixels. There’s various mediums through which one can apply design. It’s really viewing how something works in the real world and seeing how can you create a corresponding experience that can streamline it, that can make it simpler, that can make it more delightful, more efficient, and really give you a lot of your life back, whether that’s time or even just joy. Jason: What problem then did you really see that you’re like, “I’m going to create Proper”? Let’s try to build this problem up. Mark: I’ve seen a lot of different thoughts to my life in being a tenant, but it really became a problem for me when I almost became an accidental landlord. I was traveling for an extended period of time, I have known my landlord for a while, and she was happy to actually let me sublet it. It’s like, “It’s okay. Go off, I trust you, and when you come back, it’s all good.” But there’s still a level of responsibility that was pressed upon me. As I rented out my apartment, I quickly realized that I have become a landlord. So, two days into it, the subtenant called me to let me know that there was a major problem. I was like, “What? What’s going on?” It turned out that the pipe above our ceiling under our neighbor’s bathroom had burst. To say the least, it’s quite a mess. This set up a flurry of emails, phone calls, text messages between the tenant and myself, the property owner, neighbors, contractors, plumbers, et cetera, and it was happening over phone calls, emails, text messages, WhatsApp calls, FaceTime calls. At some point, I was like, “Wow, this is rather ridiculous,” and my design mind immediately started thinking... Jason: Broken. This is flawed. There’s got to be a better way than this. Mark: Yeah. My wheels are just spinning and spinning and spinning, and I started designing it in my brain. Then, one day I just whipped it out of my computer, I just mocked it up, and I was like, “I’m going to build this.” I started building it and I think one thing that’s true then and now, and even more true now, is we spend a lot of time talking to our users and our customers, and really dissecting their problems or processes. I immediately started doing calls with property managers that I already knew. As you saw in my bio, I knew a lot of property managers. When I started the Venice Art Crawl, which is a crowd-sourced art event, we have 40 different art shows going on at the same time in Venice beach. The way I did it was I found vacant spaces, [...] the property managers and basically said, “I know I can bring high net worth individuals to these empty spaces and we can treat it almost as an open house.” That worked not only well—I was creating value for them—they all basically love me. When I started working on this idea, they were happy to talk to me for hours at a time. What I found is that maintenance is almost the bane of their existence. Jason: Oh yeah. We did a survey inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group—property managers listening, you should be in there if you have a property management business—and we asked—just an informal poll in the Facebook group—“What’s your number one challenge in your business?” There were two or three items at the top of the list that were connected to maintenance. It was sourcing vendors, it was maintenance coordination. Maintenance is the biggest headache or challenge in property management. Mark: Yeah. It’s very painful to the point that I actually thought that I was becoming a therapist. Sometimes, they would talk to me for three hours at a time just talking about it, and I was like, “Wow, this is a very real problem.” I was able to take those learnings and turned it into a product that corresponded with it. What started off was really just a project. I didn’t think, “Oh, I’m going to become a billionaire off of this. This is my next big thing.” This is more, I was traveling, I wanted to start building a product, and I wanted it to not be something that I built in bane, but rather, to possibly solve someone’s problem. Initially, it was my problem, and when I talked to property managers, they actually laughed at me because I was building an app already and only dealing with a monthly maintenance issue, while they’re dealing with hundreds a month, if not more. Jason: Right. You’re building an app for one maintenance issue. Mark: Yeah, so talking to them totally validated that this is something worth pursuing. Then, I just went deeper. I kept talking to them. I started talking to the contractors, the tenants, and I realized that this is a problem on all sides of the equation and set out to start building a solution that could solve a lot of the issues with it. I think a lot of my history in design has been focused on communication, really making it richer and removing barriers. Essentially, a lot of friction and a lot of time wasted happens when poor communication happens. That’s why it’s proper.chat and leveraging chat as a platform to remove a lot of the bottlenecks that happen, like playing Whac-A-Mole between an email for this contractor, phone call for that tenant, and really starting to centralize everything where we could remove those bottlenecks and with the oversight of the property manager, the contractor and the tenant can speak with each other. Anything from scheduling, updates, “Hey, I got to go to Home Depot and get this part. I’ll be back tomorrow.” In the world today, the tenant would know. Three days could pass and that creates frustration and friction for the tenant because they don’t know what’s going on, and that means another phone call to the property manager. Jason: Right. Communication in a business, for any business, causes a challenge; internal communication. For a while, as I was growing from solopreneur to building a team, I have freelancers. I thought this was so great because I only have to pay them when there’s work. “Here’s the job, do this work.” But the challenge with that is the communication level was just not strong enough. I didn’t realize that until I started getting full-time employees. The communication level is dramatically different when you have somebody that’s dedicated because you’re reducing the number of people that you need. That person is giving more of their time. Two people that are doing 10 hours a week versus 1 person that’s doing 20 hours a week, I would take the one person any day of the week, especially if those two have to communicate. The communication back-and-forth wastes so much time, and there’s always a percentage of loss when there’s any sort of communication. If there’s communication between two parties, there are gaps. There just always is. It could be a misread and body language. It could be somebody doesn’t understand something. Somebody’s a poor communicator. There’s some sort of flaw. The more you can reduce that, the less friction there is. One of my recent hires was one of these unicorns that can do web development and design. The communication level is way shorter. He can get things done in such a short time. Normally, I want a specialist, but he’s able to create something so much quicker because he’s not having the communicate and negotiate between another party that doesn’t understand what they do. A developer and a designer are two different universes, right? Mark: Absolutely, yeah. Jason: [...] crazy guys setting you both. So, I get it. Explain how this helps reduce the communication and why is this better than the other stuff that’s out there, what other people have been doing? What’s unique about Proper that you’re noticing? Mark: A lot of it comes down to visibility and a shared placed for everyone involved with the maintenance, to communicate with each other. Where we really differentiate is that we started on mobile. We’re a mobile-first solution. We do have a desktop and a web experience for the property manager. In terms of being able to report, what we notice from a lot of property managers, whether they have Yardi, AppFolio, you’re still getting these maintenance requests from many different places. You’re getting from phone calls, emails, text messages. What we set out to build and we’re building right now is one place I can centralize all that. Not only centralize it but make it a more useful format. When someone writes you a three-paragraph email, a lot of it is frustration. Jason: Right. There’s all this emotion and they want you to understand their pain. They’re like, “I got to relate this. I got to paint this picture.” Mark: Exactly, and part of it is because they’ve waited too long to write this email. This frustration has built up and they want to write this email. With our application, which is native, you as a tenant are able to create a work order very quickly, and it’s very visual. An image is worth a thousand words and it really is in this area. Often, these emails don’t even include images, so a tenant is able to quickly snap a photo, almost like Snapchat or Instagram. You don’t train anyone. There’s literally billions of users on these apps who know how to use this and they’re able to create a work order in under 30 seconds. The format is not to write paragraphs and paragraphs. It’s to be succinct, 140–200 characters max and you choose a category. This gets fired off to the property manager, you get a notification on your phone or on your desktop, and then from there you have your contractors that you can add this this conversation. The idea is that it turns into a group chat at this point, with the property manager still being involved. Instead of trying to get back and forth between scheduling, instead of the contractor having to ask questions to the property manager to then go ask the tenant to further diagnose what’s broken, the contractor’s able to immediately see what’s broken because there’s always going to be a picture. We pretty much make that almost mandatory for the tenants. What we’ve seen from contractors is that they’re able to save time and cost by more quickly able to diagnose where the problem is, what tools to bring, what materials to bring. Everything just happens there. The property manager is still part of the process, but they don’t need to insert themselves. When they insert themselves now, it really takes up a lot of their time. Not only because they have to go back and forth, but often they’re fielding phone calls, they’re fielding emails, and then this really, really adds up. Jason: I love that it’s prompting them to take a picture. Mark: Yeah. The first step is to create a work order, take a picture. That’s the first thing. Jason: And a picture’s worth a thousand words. They’re not going to have to write a thousand words in order to get it across. You can see it and you go, “Okay, you can fluff it up or make it more dramatic, but I can see it. Here it is.” Or they might do the opposite. They might say, “Hey, there’s a problem with the faucet and it’s flooding the whole bathroom.” So, you can see it. They send you a picture. In a lot of apps, a picture’s an afterthought. They have to do some serious extra work in order to get a photo into something or to do it. I’ve had maintenance companies ask me, “Could you email me a photo?” or, “Can you take a picture so we know what to look for or what type of fixture we need?” whatever. It slows down the communication significantly. Mark: Totally and I think there are these added benefits that currently property managers don’t have the bandwidth to do. Because of the contractors there, they can easily provide updates themselves like, “Hey, I have this question.” “Hey I have to come back.” Right now, that has to go to the property manager, the property manager then has to tell the tenant, and then often this doesn’t happen. So, you have this built-in benefits of transparency that you have with the tenant that really builds trust, but also stops them from calling you, which once again takes up a lot of your time. The very nice thing is that at the end, the contractor is able to close up the job by providing proof that they’ve done it. So, they have to take pictures of it. Then, you have these records of the conversations that you have with everyone, the images at the beginning of the job, the images at the end, and it just creates a ton of transparency and documentation that you can have, that’s very easily searchable, filterable later on. One thing we’re starting to work on is really reporting. You can start to really understand the volume of workers that you’re getting, the stages that they’re at, the amount of time it took to complete it, and really how much time it’s taking up for you. Jason: It makes a lot of sense. If you can cut out one phone call, you’re probably saving your team, at a minimum, 15–18 minutes of productivity, simply because one interruption in a team member’s day, typically they say, cost about 18 minutes of productivity. Even [...] take 18 minutes, they got to rebuild the house of cards they were working on or go back to whatever project they’re trying to figure out. So, if you can cut down the phone calls significantly, even if you don’t have that large of a portfolio, it’s almost like getting a new team member on your team. It’s that significant. People are really expensive in property management businesses. It’s the highest cost in the PM business. I know what property managers listening to this are going to be thinking. They’re going to be thinking, “Well, that sounds great, but another piece of technology. How is it going to work with my Buildium, or my AppFolio, or my Propertyware? I got these, they’ve got maintenance requests built into them. How will this work?” Mark: In terms of the different platforms, there are ones that permit direct integrations and we’re starting to work with building some of those. Then, we’re also building a way for you to be able to easily export, search, and import this data at the end. I think the difference really is that the maintenance offerings that they have don’t create the same level of visibility and don’t save you the amount of time. Even if their integration is not there, the amount of time that we’re currently saving you and that we’re going to continue to increase, really starts to outweigh some of the cons of doing that. That’s the way we’re moving through with all these things. Jason: Can you tell us who you’re working to start integrating with yet? Mark: We have a couple of partners, mostly in the Los Angeles area. One has about 1000 units, another 2000 units, and we’re working with both of them. They’re both on different platforms and seeing what’s going to be the most efficient way. It’s not just integration of the maintenance, but also I think what’s really important here is their accounting. We’re really looking at accounting and how we can start to streamline with that because there is one of the things that we’ve seen with the contractors is a lot of them don’t have a systematic way of not just keeping track of their work orders or invoices, but even just generating invoices, so it takes up a lot of their time. On the property management side, you’re getting all these different types of invoices coming in, totally different formats, and then you’re manually doing double data entry into all these different systems. It’s kind of a pain because it’s like, “Why is it formatted this way?” You have this hurdle that you’re dealing with all these messed-up invoices. One thing that we’re seeing is there’s the ease of use of our invoice. A lot of the maintenance techs and workers are actually enjoying using it and starting to use it as a way to create a uniform way of generating invoices for their property managers. What we want to do is actually make that very easy to export so you can import so that you can import it into your accounting system. Jason: Cool. What are the big questions that people ask about this? What are their frequently asked questions, concerns? What are the big questions that they’re asking so that we cover all the bases here? Mark: There’s quite a few, but I think there’s this very chat-focused, very simple, clean design. There isn’t a lot of other platforms that we’ve seen in the space yet. They’re starting to show up, but really there’s very few. I think a lot of people are like, “Hey, do you provide training? How much is training going to cost?” Jason: You’re like, “Do you know how to use instant message?” Mark: No. We don’t want to be sending that at all. We really care about our users, so we offer like, “We’ll train you,” and then the funny thing here is that we do a demo and not for a minute we train them. Jason: And by the way that demo was the training. Mark: Yeah. If you know how to use iMessage or any of those things, it’s very intuitive. That’s really the core principle of the company is designing something that is not only beautiful, but it’s extremely easy to use because we don’t think that we should be paying and send somebody out to train you or that you need to hire some expert to use the software. Jason: All right. I’m going to go to the devil’s advocate on the other side here. It’s so easy, it’s just chat, it’s so simple, why don’t I just sign-up with Intercom or Help Scout and get a chat tool and take tickets? What’s different between those solutions and something like Proper? Mark: Proper is really geared towards maintenance. Even just the terminology, the flow, the understanding of the whole workflow of maintenance getting done, is what is unique to us. You could theoretically use text messaging to do. The reality is you can start to use that, but then very quickly it breaks down and it becomes cumbersome. For example, Intercom. There’s no mobile app. There’s no way to really add photos into what’s going on. There’s no way to categorize it into the type of problem that might be related to maintenance. For us, we provide all those things but then, you’re also able to search, filter, and zoom in on a property and be like, “Okay, these are all the work orders. This is how we spent maintenance on this property.” As we move forward and we start to integrate with other systems, that’s something that Intercom would probably not do. Jason: They’re going to put this chat tool probably on their website, so people coming there if they have maintenance requests, do they hide it like, “Go here for maintenance and then the chat is there”? Or is it [...] and if so, the maintenance coordination is one side, but they also have lead gen that they’re trying to do. They have sales. They’re trying to target owners and capture people with their live chat tools. How do you usually recommend they segregate that or can Proper help up with that other challenge as well? Mark: Good question. The way the application is working right now is that the live chatting or website, if you’re using something like Intercom, that is something that we’re not providing right now. Essentially, what happens is that property managers will announce that they’re using Proper to their network, share the app, then they’re able to install it, and then start reporting through there. It comes into our web app and mobile app. As a property manager, you can use the app from anywhere, but you could also use it at your desktop. From there, is where to start to field everything. Jason: So, Proper works more like an internal tool. When you onboard your new tenants, you can say, “Hey, get this. This is how you can communicate with us.” It’s probably not just functioning as the live chat tool that’s capturing leads on the front-end of your business, but you could always take that tool and put links into it or pre-written messages to say, “Oh, it’s a maintenance request. Go here.” [...] Intercom a button that they click, that I’m here for maintenance and it takes them to Proper to take care of that. Mark: Yeah and one of the really interesting things is that we’re starting to build email integrations, so the initial one that we built is that if you receive an email that’s coming in from a tenant and it’s maintenance-related, we build the Chrome extension where very easily just sends it to Proper and then it turns it into actual work orders. You’re not actually trying to do double data entry there. The next step of that is making it so that your tenants and contractors don’t have to join Proper. They can submit things via email, but then you have one place where it’s starting to aggregate everything, whether it’s submitted directly to Proper or through another channel like email. That’s one of the really exciting features for these next two months that we’re working on should be out. Jason: So, that will be similar to Intercom, which you can have a certain email address like maintenance@businessname.com and have that forward those emails into Proper? Mark: Yeah, it all vacuums it right up and then as it comes in, you’re able to categorize it and make it something that is not mixed with thousands of other’s emails but rather centralized and easy to find just like any of the other maintenance tickets. Jason: It sounds like it would make sense for them to have some sort of support solution and still use Proper for the maintenance portion for the back-end, and internally with tenants. Very cool. What other questions then do people tend to ask? Mark: One of the big ones is really that email integration that I just mentioned. That’s essentially what we’ve been doing is tons of user research and starting to find what are the biggest problems. Using that is like having it bubble up to the top and turning it into features that are usable to them. Jason: One of the challenges in maintenance is the communication between vendor and owner is getting paid, payouts. What if the vendor starts messaging and they’re like, “Hey, property manager, when do I get paid? Here’s my invoice,” and the tenants are seeing this stuff. How do you deal with that? Mark: I’m glad you asked that because that’s literally the feature we’re rolling out right now. We’re waiting for the upstart to approve and by the way, we’re on iOS, Android, and web. The next thing I told you, we make it really easy for your maintenance staff or techs to create invoices and generate them. We’re actually about to roll out payments where they’re able to get to pay through ACH and really it’s cut out a lot of time for the contractors to generate those invoices or even for the property managers to [...] and all these things which I still see very frequently happening. Jason: In the app, the contractor maybe see something a little different and they can submit invoice or something like this? Mark: Yeah. Basically, when the contractor closes up the job, they provide proof that they did it and they’re prompted to create an invoice. Jason: And one proof would be another photo, something along these lines? Mark: Yeah. You’re able to add multiple photos as the contractor. This then generates an invoice that the property manager receives. This is a separate view where the tenant is not part of it. They’re not anything around cost, they’re not seeing this. The property manager is actually able to pay via ACH directly to the contractor through the app. There’s no need to go elsewhere and try to cut a check, having anyone pick it up, or mail it, or anything like that. Jason: So again, it’s reducing a lot of the friction and communication challenges between the property manager or maintenance coordinator and the vendors. Mark: Yeah. That’s one thing that we’ve seen on both sides of the equation. A lot of property managers are still spending a lot of time just doing payments. On the contractor side, they are spending a lot of time generating invoices. They have a good support, so at the end of the week, they’re tying up all the work that they did. They don’t even necessarily have the good system to keep track of all the jobs that they did. So, they’re often once again spending this admin time where they’re not actually getting paid to do that. What happens now is that with the invoicing feature, although it’s simple and very intuitive, it actually reduces the amount of time that they’re doing this stuff, they’re able to get paid faster, and they’re able to spend a lot less time worrying about the stuff and actually getting more work done, which means your maintenance is getting done faster, which means your tenants are happier, which means you’re happier as a property manager because you’re hearing less from them. It’s really an interesting problem because you have these three different groups of people and you’re trying to design the simplest solution that takes into account their unique set of problems. Jason: If you imagine, what would be the ideal situation so that all three parties could communicate the most efficiently? You would just have all three of them sitting in a room face-to-face talking like, “Hey, you’ll do this. I’ll do this.” “Okay, I’ll pay you then. I’ll do this.” “Okay, team. Ready? Great.” Everybody’s there, it would be fast, but that’s not reality, right? Mark: Yeah. Jason: You’re trying to run a business and so is the vendor. The tenant should hopefully has a job and making some money to pay rent. There’s all this stuff going on, we can’t just all hang out, but Proper really creates a room that they can all hang out in and communicate. Mark: It’s great that you actually put it that way because that’s very much how I think about solving this problem. When you’re in person with sometime, it is the richest form of communication. If it’s a group of people, then the bottlenecks or the walls that exist, that is created through distance, creates all these inefficiencies. Essentially, that is actually how we think. That is what we want to be able to create these rooms and make this very efficient, yet rich way to communicate with each other, to eliminate a lot of these barriers that are currently costing a lot of time, which includes money, and often just frustration. One thing that I didn’t mention here is that I spent a whole year working out of a property manager’s office. You can call it extreme customer development and I really understood a lot of their operations and just so much of their time is spent on communication, but because they don’t have good tools for it, it just generates a lot of frustration on each side of it. Assuming that it’s hard to measure, the quality of life when you’re constantly doing frustration just really goes down. Jason: Yeah. Plus there’s a lot of turn-over. Among the property managers that are working for a property management business owner, it’s very difficult. Mark: What’s true of us as a company is to improve that quality of life because we know how gruesome the job can be, how hard it can be, how taxing it can be. If you use our app, it’s very colorful. We kind of joke around in the copy and we try to make it not just extremely efficient but fun. We want to make it [...] inject a little bit of fun into it. I don’t think that I see that very much in the space yet, which is one of the things I’m very excited about is that I want to bring that to the space. Jason: Some of the things I’ve seen in some apps lately that people have been doing to gamify things, which is really funny, that once you complete something or you finish something, you get confetti and balloon noises and stuff like this, like this is a little celebration. So, I’m just going to throw this is a feature request that after a maintenance is completed and somebody marks complete to get […] and they get this little celebration thing. It gives them that dopamine boost to get things done and they feel good about it. Mark: Oh yeah. That’s actually something that now that we’re starting to mature as a company and we’re getting ahead with the feature set and the road map, that’s something that we actually can bring into it. So, given my part of design background, I also know a lot of animators and illustrators. As you can see, we have a lot of illustrations. We very much want to use those opportunities. When you’ve succeeded at doing something, really just letting you know. Jason: Even rewarding a tenant for using the system. Instead of calling you, like they submit a ticket and you’re like, “You’ve done it! Good job!” All these little things just create positivity and they add a positive feel to the property management company. The tenants are usually pretty upset if there’s a maintenance request. The vendors are having to deal with that, the property manager. Anywhere you can add a little bit of fun and gamification into an app, I think is [...] world a little bit more fun. Mark: Yeah. There’s no reason you can’t have fun doing this job. I want to save you time, but like in this, get you to crack a smile a couple of times a day. It’s not just about saving time but it’s about being able to continue to do that job and be happy doing it. Jason: All right, cool. Mark, I really enjoy having you on the show. One thing that might be cool, it would be after a maintenance request is submitted, if we did an integration with GatherKudos, real super easy, super simple. [...] whether they’re happy or sad. Mark: I’m totally happy to talk about that. Jason: All right. That would be cool. It’s really great to have you on. How can people get in touch with Proper? How can do a demo? How can they find out more? Mark: We actually created a unique link for the show, so if you go to proper.chat/doorgrow, you can definitely learn a little bit about our products and then very easily set-up a demo with us. Again the tool is super easy to use, so we are happy to set-up a demo with you. It shouldn’t take more than five minutes. Once you start seeing the product it becomes very quickly evident how this can start saving you time and also maybe make you smile. Jason: Awesome. All right, everybody check that out. I appreciate you setting up that link. That’s awesome. Go to proper.chat/doorgrow and check it out. You get a little special perk for being a DoorGrow Show listener. Mark, really grateful for you coming on the show. I love hearing about new technology. I think this sounds really innovative and I think it solves a problem. I think that it will really be beneficial and I’m really excited to see what you guys do in this space and start hearing some feedback from my clients on what they think. Mark: Yeah. Thanks for giving me time and always a pleasure to talk. I look forward to checking in again soon. Jason: Cool. Yeah, we’ll be talking again soon. All right, I’ll let Mark out. If you are a property management entrepreneur and you’re looking to add doors, you’ve been struggling, you’re wondering why does it feel like there’s scarcity in an industry and 70% are self-managing. There’s no scarcity in property management right now. There just isn’t, but they’re not looking on Google. You’re going to have some trouble if your whole goal is you have people find you through Google. There are ways to go out and create business and we’re focusing on that. So, stay tuned with DoorGrow, keep an eye on us, and if you’re wanting to grow your business, if you want to short some of the leaks in your sales pipeline, you want to dial in trust engine, have generate more warm leads and warm business, it’s easier to close and have less conversations about price, price sensitivity, and comparison to other companies, that’s what we do. Reach out and talk to DoorGrow. We’ll be happy to help you add doors to your business, figure out how you can optimize your business for growth and creating trust. Again, I’m Jason Hull with DoorGrow here on the DoorGrow Show. I appreciate you tuning in. Please like and subscribe on whichever channel your hearing this on, whether it’s YouTube, iTunes, Facebook, whatever. Stay plugged in and make sure you get inside our DoorGrow Club Facebook group where we are putting out discontent. We have an awesome community of DoorGrow hackers like you. So, check it out doorgrowclub.com. That’s all for today, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Candace sits down with her Horror obsessed friend Calum to talk about the reason for the season. Maybe not the reason....but it is a really fun part of Halloween. Scary Movies! We discuss classic slashers, to the revival of horror, to fun stuff to watch with kids for Halloween. This episode we are down a co host, Canadian Thanksgiving meant Fabia was out of town. But fret not! She will be back at her mic for our next recording.Find us on Facebook & Instagram @woodbetweenworldspodcast | Twitter:@woodworlds | Email us with suggestions at twogirlsonemic@woodbetweenworldspodcast.com | Visit our website www.woodbetweenworldspodcast.com