Podcasts about craig yeah

How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we're lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don't like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication. A consummate conversationalist, Craig's overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting. Let Craig's passion inspire you to: Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run Links worth mentioning from the episode: Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/ Engage with Craig: Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/ Learn more about Craig's podcasting mission - https://openandcurious.org/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that. > MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff. CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show. MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you? CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too.  So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way?  And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird. MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation? CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta.  But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something?  So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different. MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda. CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can.  So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing.  MARY: Yeah,  CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head.  So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people. MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either. CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared. MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,...  CRIAG: Oh yeah. MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that?  CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone.  So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having.  So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool.  So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand. MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion. CRAIG: Yes. MARY: So how do you differentiate that? CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I'm like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally.  So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know.  But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course. MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree? CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic.  So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so.  MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect. CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in.  So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's.  Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: Just a little harder. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview. CRAIG: Whew, good. MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question? CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden? MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud. CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know. MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world. CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical. MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure.  Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this? CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows.  MARY: You have five active, oh geeze.  > CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them.  So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking.  And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me.  So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course.  And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show.  And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting.  So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it. MARY: Yeah, how do you do it? CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share.  And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I'm, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that.  And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish. MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean? CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT. MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down. CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document.  So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it's work. And it gets me going every time.  So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT.  I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for. MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days. CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio.  Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up.  So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation.  So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner.  And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation. There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough. MARY: Done. Yes. CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out. MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast? CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is.  Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show.  So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that.  Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope. > MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: That nobody listens. MARY: That's always the podcaster problem.  CRAIG: Yeah. MARY: Nobody's listening. CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems. MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting? CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing?  People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like.  I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this?  So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something.  If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control. MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge. > CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that's very special. MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it. CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out? MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know. CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word.  So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane. MARY: Oh, yeah. CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this. > MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time. CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content. MARY: That is a lot! CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy. MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule? CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now.  It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details.  So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get. MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end. CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out.  Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work.  So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever.  I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation. MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah. CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >.  So that's another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven't got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That's hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop.  Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome. MARY: That was awesome, Craig. CRAIG: But I did it on purpose.  MARY: I know. CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape. MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now? CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic.  So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking. MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know? CRAIG: Oh, yeah. MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation. > CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes.  So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you?  Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com.  On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time. > > >

On this episode, my guest is Craig Slee, a disabled writer, consultant and theorist dealing with mythology, folklore, magic and culture, exploring life through the lens of landscape, disability and fugitive embodiments.He has contributed essays and poetry focusing on the numinous and disability to various anthologies including The Dark Mountain Journal. Craig has also co-facilitated multiple seminar series at the Dresden Academy for Fine Arts, regarding ableism in the arts, as well as how ableism affects our relationship to space. In 2023 he was one of the speakers at the World Futures Studies Federation 50th Anniversary Conference, introducing the concept of (Dis)abling Futures. Craig resides in the northwest of England.Show NotesCornwall and the Seasons Who Gets to Decide What it Means to Know a Place?The Folding in of Identity to TourismA Question of Productive vs Generative AbilityAbleism and AttentionFinger Bending and the Freedom of MovementRedefining and Remembering Other Forms of MovementWhat is Stillness?The Dance of MountainsObeying LimitsHomeworkCold Albion (Craig's Blog)Goetic Atavisms (Hadean Press)Craig's Blue Sky Page | Facebook PageTranscriptChris: Welcome to the End of Tourism, Craig. Craig: Thank you for having me. Chris: Yes, it's great to be able to speak with you today. I've been ruminating for a couple of years now as to the themes that we might speak of. And I was introduced to you via a mutual friend and have come closer to your work via the Emergence Network's online gathering, We Will Dance With Mountains, in the last quarter of 2023.And so, to begin, I'd like to ask you first where you find yourself today and what the world looks like for you, where you are. Craig: Where I find myself today is by the canal in my flat, looking out the window, just as evenings coming in, in the northwest of England, in Lancaster, and it's chilly here which is actually a good thing, I guess, these days.Chris: Perhaps I could ask you to elaborate a little bit on what Lancaster looks like, but I know that, you know, from our conversations previous that you grew up [00:01:00] in Cornwall, a place that was previously, a town, an area devoted to fishing and mining, and from what you've told me, it's also become a massive tourist trap that you know, from the little that I've seen online, that the area receives around 5 million visitors a year, and tourism makes up about a quarter of the local economy.So I'm curious what you've seen change there and what do you think has happened to Cornwall and its people as a result and maybe there's something in there as well regarding Lancaster. Craig: Yeah, so I should emphasize this. I was born in Cornwall. My family has been lived down there for many many generations anyway and my father's side of the family actually, at various points, worked in the tourist trade as well before they went on to other things.And, [00:02:00] yeah, I mean, I left because, frankly, there was no jobs that weren't tourism. I came to Lancaster to study because one, I have a physical disability which means that Cornwall is a very rural area, so you need to drive everywhere, and that's fine, I drove at that point, but for good or ill, a more urban center was better for me later in life as I left.But the way that it shifted, even in the years when I was growing up, was that, you know, essentially was a rural area where nothing really happened socially or culturally that much until the summer seasons. So, you were very, very aware of the seasons in terms of, you'd have visitors [00:03:00] starting, and that was when the town would wake up, and then it was kind of dead for the rest of the year, so it was very much one of those things where the tourist trade has actually made me more aware of human rhythms in the natural world than perhaps I would have been, because it's so based on seasonal stuff.And just looking at the way the infrastructure because a lot of the towns and areas, they boomed a little bit well, quite a lot in certain areas with the tin mining of the 19th century. But a lot of the architecture and things like that was 19th century. So you had small villages and slightly larger towns, and they have very, well, I guess some people, if they were tourists, would call "quaint, narrow streets."And when you have that many visitors, in the summer, you can't get down the streets. [00:04:00] You can't drive it because it's full of people walking. You know, there's an interesting anecdote I'd like to recount of when my father, he was a vicar, he was a priest, moved to a new area he would go to the local pub and all the locals would greet him as the priest and be like, very polite.And then when it would come out that my dad was actually a local, that he was born down there and part of the family, everybody would relax. And there was this real sort of strange thing where people came and stayed because it was a lovely area, but there was still that whole issue with second homes and certainly keeping an eye on things from a distance here during the pandemic when people left cities during the pandemic, they went down there amongst places in Britain.And that meant that, [00:05:00] literally, there were no houses for newly starting teachers, you know, teachers who had got jobs and were moving down there, couldn't find places to live because during the 2020 and sort of 2022 period, everything was just opening up either as Airbnb because there was this influx from the cities to the more rural areas because it was supposedly safer.You know, and I feel like that's a reflex that is really interesting because most people think of it as, oh, "a tourist area," people go there for leisure, they go there to relax and get away from their lives, which is true, but under a stressful situation like a pandemic, people also flee to beautiful quotes isolated areas, so there's that real sense of pressure, I think and this idea that we weren't entirely sure, growing up, [00:06:00] whether we would have a place to live because a lot of the housing was taken up by people with second homes. And plenty of people I went to school with because it's a surfing area took the knowledge that they learned in the tourism trade, and actually left and went to Australia. And they live on the Gold Coast now. So it's this self perpetuating thing, you know? Chris: Well, that leads me to my next question, which kind of centers around belonging and being rooted and learning to root, maybe even becoming a neighbor or some might say a citizen of a place.And with tourism or a touristic worldview, we seem to be largely stunted in our ability to know a place, to become part of that place in any significant or enduring sense of the word. And so, I'm curious what your thoughts are on what it means to know a place, [00:07:00] and perhaps on the often mad rush to say I know a place for the sake of social capital, you know, given the context of the kind of relative difficulties that one might incur, or in a place like Cornwall, and the relative degree of exile that forces people out.What do you think it means to know a place in the context of all of these economic pressures denying us that possibility, or at least making it really, really difficult. Craig: I think we have a real problem in modernity with the idea of knowing as a sense of capture, right? So if I know you, I have this boundary of this shape, this outline of Chris, right, that I can hold, that I can grasp. And I think sometimes when we say, "oh, I know a place," or, "oh, I know a person" there's no concept of the [00:08:00] ongoing relationality. You know, you capture the image and then you keep it. And it's a whole construct of extractive knowledge that really, I think, comes down to the idea that the humans are the ones who get to decide what a place is, right?So. I could say in the standard sense, "Oh, I know Cornwall because I, you know, I grew up there for nearly 20 years." My family has been there since about the 1500s. You know, "I know a place, it's in my bones." Yada yada yada. All the metaphors you want to use. But the fact of the matter is, the place itself influences me more than I influence it. So there's this strange sense of belonging in which modernity [00:09:00] says "I belong" or "it belongs to me" rather than perhaps the place has extended hospitality to me and allowed me to grow and I could live/work in a place for 30 years and never know it because we're not comfortable as a culture with the idea of going, "I don't know this place."And it's a variety. It's always changing. And I think about all the times I used to watch the sea and talk to folks whose parents were fishermen or lifeboatmen, and they'd be like, "Yeah, we know the waters, but the waters can change. We know roughly what they do under certain conditions, but we don't know them completely, because they can always surprise us."And So, when somebody says, "oh, you're from Cornwall, you're a Cornishman," and all that sense of identity, [00:10:00] I'm like, "yeah, but that's, that's both really fluid for me, because, you know, there's a lot of history." Is it the tourist world of the 20th and 21st century, or is it the farming and the mining that goes back to the Neolithic?How we relate to a place purely in a modern sense isn't, to my mind anyway, the only way to conceive of belonging because, even though I'm now 300 miles away from there, I have its isotopes, its minerals from drinking the water in my teeth, you know. So, on some level, the idea that you have to be in a place also to belong to a place is something that I'm curious about because, there's this whole notion, [00:11:00] "you're only in the place and you've been in a place for this long and that means you know it and you're local." Whereas growing up, there was this sort of weird thing where it was like, "yeah, you might have been here 30 years and everybody knows you, but you're not a local." Right? You still belong, but there was this other category of " you're not local or something like that."And so it's complicated, but I really do, for my personal take, tend to look at it as a, the landscape, or wherever it is, influences my sense of belonging in a non human context, or more than human context, if that makes sense. Chris: Hmm. Yeah, there's so much there. Yeah. I mean, I'm also, in the context of identity, also wondering in what ways, not only has the tourism industry shaped one's identity of being local, which [00:12:00] is, I think, a huge issue in over touristed places in the last, you know, 10 or 20 years, as identity politics rises into the mainstream, and but then also not just the industry and the interaction with foreigners or, or guests, or tourists, but the way in which the image of that place is crafted through, often, ministries of culture or heritage, you know, so you could grow up in a place that isn't necessarily overly touristed or anything like that. But then have your identity crafted by these ideas of culture or heritage that the government's, federal and otherwise, have placed on people.Craig: And especially because where I come from, Cornwall, actually had its own language, which died out, which was on the verge of dying out in the 19th century. And slowly there are more speakers of it now. And you go back there now and you'll find, [00:13:00] even when I was growing up it wasn't so prevalent, but you'll find a lot of the signs for the street signs will have the English and the Cornish.So that's where the government has embraced this identity and enhanced it after people have been saying, you know, "this is a language we've rebuilt it. It's cousin to Welsh and Breton. We should use it. It's part of our identity and it's got folded into that." And so the infrastructure itself is now been part of that. You know, those very same streets have a name that wasn't known for like, 50, 60, maybe to 80 years, and suddenly people are now deliberately using the old names in non English languages because of that. And it's very strange because, especially in the UK, what with all [00:14:00] of Brexit and all that, there is a very weird sense wherein the rest of England, i. e. North and London and those sort of areas don't understand because Cornwall was a peripheral area and much like Wales, there's a lot of distrust of central government. Hmm. So, you've got this whole construction of a personal identity of nobody actually really understands what goes on outside. Either they're incomers, either they're emmets. You know, which "emmets" is the old English for "ants." Referring to tourists as ants in a kind of, yeah, they get everywhere. And the whole notion of who we are is always constructed. But in that case, going away and coming back to visit, I'm going, "Well that street didn't [00:15:00] have that label on it when I left. But it does now. And so in a certain sense it's the same place, but it's got this overlay of somewhere different that really enhances that sense of layers for me of "which Cornwall?" "Which of any of these places are we talking about?"Like you say, is it the one you see on a picture postcard or an Instagram or is it the ones who sat there as kids going, right, 'there's nothing to do, let's go and drink in a field?' You know and all of these things can co exist.Chris: Hmm, right. Yeah, I just interviewed a friend of mine, Christos Galanis, who did his PhD on hillwalkers, as well as homecomers in the Scottish Highlands, so people who spend their weekends climbing, summiting the Highland Mountains, and also the Canadian or Americans who travel to Scotland on heritage trips or ancestral [00:16:00] journeys. And he mentioned how in the Highlands that the governments have placed the original Gaelic place names on all of the the signs there, whether you're entering a village or perhaps on the street signs as well.And that he said that something like "only three percent of the of the people in Scotland actually speak, speak Gaelic," so they see the sign, they see the name, the vast majority of people, and they have no idea what it means. And I also remember the last time I was in Toronto, which is where I'm from originally, or where I grew up.And my family grew up in the east end of town, and the main thoroughfare in the east end of town is largely referred to as "Greek Town." You know, when I was a kid it was certainly Greek Town. The Greek letters, the Greek alphabet names as well as the English names of the street signs in that area.But it's much, much, much less Greek than it was 25 years ago, right? So again, [00:17:00] this question of like, is that to some extent trying to solidify the kind of cultural geography of a place. That people come to that street and that neighborhood because they want to experience Greekness in its diasporic kind of context.And yet, so many of those people, so many of those families have moved on or moved along or become more Canadian in their own sense of the word, so. Craig: Yeah. It's very strange as well because things like that attract... there's a loop obviously, because you'll get people coming to experience the greekness or the cornishes, and people will be like, oh, we should open a business that will enhance the greekness or the Cornish of the place, and that will draw, and it just becomes this thing and, yeah.Yeah, it's very strange. And I would totally agree with you on that one. Chris: Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. Until like a Greek person from Greece or a Cornish grandmother comes into town and says like, what? No, that's not Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I'd like to shift the conversation, Craig, a little bit towards ableism, and begin with this question that comes from our dear mutual friend Aerin and who admits that she's happily robbed it directly from Fiona Kumari Campbell.Yes. So, you might have heard this question before but she she felt the need to kind of pose it anew and and so the question is this. How does disability productively color our lives and Aerin wanted to ask it, to modify it slightly and ask, how does disability generatively or creatively color our lives? Craig: I can't speak to anybody's life other than my own really. But I would say that for me disability has, [00:19:00] one, given me a real sort of ability to look at the world and go, "you guys think this is how everything works and it clearly doesn't."You know, it has given me a generative gift of going, "hold on, what people think of the default really isn't the default, because I was never born as the default, and so I've had to find my own way of relating to the world" and that means that anybody goes anytime anybody goes "Oh, well, everybody knows..." or "the only way to do it is this?" I am always going "are you absolutely sure about that?" You know, "are you absolutely sure that what you're looking at or experiencing or noticing is only perceivable in one way, it's only ever [00:20:00] frameable, in one context?" But also this idea for me that disability is simply a fact.It's not good or bad. It is a thing that exists in the world and ableism is essentially the urge to measure against the vast field of disability and impairment and go, "We don't want that. That's the worst thing to be. So, we will strive to not be that." As Fiona Kumari Campbell would say, " It sets up a ranking and notification and prioritization of sentient life."So, this is why we, to a certain extent, we have such a obsession with youth culture. Young, healthy, fit folks are in some way better than the elderly. Oh god, nobody wants [00:21:00] to get old cause, if you're of white extraction, "oh, they'll probably stick you in a home."Nobody wants to conceive of the idea that actually you can have a generative and intimate relationship with somebody, not necessarily a romantic one, but a deep, deep friendship that also involves, frankly to put it crudely, perhaps wiping somebody's arse, right? There's this whole notion of messiness and failure and why Aerin reworded it from "productive" to "generative" is that whole idea of being productive, of having capitalist use, to produce, to make for purposes. And for me, disability and the field of disability in which I exist says "I exist and I don't have to be productive." it really [00:22:00] challenges the capitalist framework for me. And also, ableism, because it's set up to rank things like speed, mobility, all kinds of things like that, having a disability where you're sitting there going, but there are other ways to do this. There are other ways to exist. To notice the way our bodies move that are mostly ignored in the sense of "yeah, we don't pay attention to our posture or our muscle structure or what our guts are doing because we're all already forced along to the next thing.You know, we're already touring from, "okay, I've got up in the morning. Next thing I've got to do is have breakfast," right? And if you can easily shift between those stages, so you get up in the morning, start your breakfast, put your clothes on easily. [00:23:00] You don't think about it as much, but if it takes you 10, 20 minutes to even get out of bed and you have to do specific things, maybe exercises, maybe things like that, the whole process thickens.And in a sense, for me, it's an antithesis to escapism because there are things you cannot escape. There are things you have to deal with. And because there are things you have to deal with, you have to pay attention to them more. And that means the most ordinary mundane thing becomes or can become, if you're willing to gently sense it, a lot richer.So, this is one of those interesting things where if people want to go places to experience new things, Okay, that's a whole issue that you've obviously talked about throughout the podcast, but there is a certain sense in [00:24:00] which we don't even know where we started from. We've not explored our own bodies.I mean, I wrote a piece in 2020 when all the lockdowns hit that got shared around various bits of the internet and I think even in the newspaper at one point in, but I got a request to syndicate it, of how to exist when you're stuck in your house. You know, what do you do to "keep," in inverted commas, "sane," which, of course, is an ableist framework, but what do you do to stop yourself from losing mental health? How do you function? And I broke it down and I sort of made practical suggestions of, this is how I, as somebody that doesn't actually have a, quotes, "normal life," and spends a lot of his time unable to travel or go out much, stops myself from feeling isolated, [00:25:00] because I've ended up having to learn to explore what some might regard as a limited domain.But to me, that limited area, that limited domain has given me this sense of vastness that's, you know, I can't remember which philosopher it is, but there is a philosopher who basically says, I think it is a Camus, who says "you just need to reopen when you're in your room and the whole world will reveal itself to you."And when you don't have a choice, when you're stuck in chronic pain, or sickness, or something like that and you have to work out what to do with your limited energy, to embrace life, there becomes a sort of challenge, to go, "okay, how can I feel like things are enriching? How can I, almost metabolize the things that other people would reject.⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.You know, [00:26:00] because disability is so "Oh, it's so sad he's disabled. Or we've got the cure for this and that. And we've got to cure it." And it's not really about ameliorating suffering. Which is a good thing. It's an analoid good to ameliorate any form of suffering. But there is this sense that the only way to perceive the world is through a so called "non disabled" abled body.The only way to experience a rich world, and again, I'm not knocking people who do a lot of travelling per se, but the only way to experience the world is to go on long journeys, and backpack and explore you know, new ways of thinking. That's great. And I'm not saying you can do exactly the same at home, but you can also become radically hospitable to yourself and to the environment in which you find [00:27:00] yourself.And that opens a whole lot of doors that I think I would regard as generatively colouring life and revealing life. In a way that was possibly occluded before. Chris: Yeah, I mean, so much of what I've come to in the research around tourism and hypermobility is this question of limits.And that certainly comes up in other themes, in other contexts. But not just the limits to one's place. Like, where does your place end? But also the limits of the human body. And, when we talk about freedom generally in the West, or in, in the context of modernity, it's so often pinned or underpinned via the freedom of movement, in part, because I know you're coming from the other side of the Atlantic, but certainly in, in this part of the [00:28:00] world, in the Americas and especially North America, freedom is understood as freedom of movement because that's in part how, the states and, and the nation's existences are justified.And so, I would just ask you what you think of that in the context of freedom being, of course a synonym for liberation. And how so many of our western notions of freedom are attached to movement and have. To a large degree become glorified in the hyper mobility of our times.Craig: I would agree with you. I think it was always there because of the colonial urge, but I think North American notions of freedom have, through a certain cultural hegemony, filtered back. You get it in the media, even Star Trek, you know, the final frontier, you know. Things like that. Or wide open spaces. There's still this notion of, freedom to move, room to live. It has its own European context and [00:29:00] horrors, unfortunately.But also, I think the notion of freedom as freedom to move. There is a question there for me, because I'm not sure we know what we're doing when we move. Right? And one of the questions that always was raised for me is, if I raise my finger, as I'm doing now, and I bend it so it's 90 degrees, how did I do that?What did I do? Well, science would say, okay, you used all your tendons and so on and so forth, and I'm like, yeah, "okay, those are nice descriptors. But what did I actually do?" Where's the connection between the impulse and the urge to bend my finger? Right. I don't know what I did there. I just thought I'm gonna bend my finger and the [00:30:00] finger bent But there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.So when I'm thinking about freedom of movement First the question is, "freedom to move in what way?" Right? So the the classic example is, in perhaps North America and and English speaking countries is "to go where I want, when I want, with none to to gainsay me, none to say you can't go there," which has been problematized thanks to the history of enclosure of land and capture by state and political actors, but also this notion that if you get into a city and you can go and people go, "Oh, I'm free to go wherever I want."I always sit there and I'm going, "yes, but you can go wherever you want, but if a place has stairs and no lift..." right? I [00:31:00] can't go there. So do I have less freedom? Well, according to the traditional notions of freedom, yes. I am less free. When I grew up, as an example in the UK I went to America when I was about four or five, and I was absolutely stunned by the amount of public toilets that had a disabled toilet.Right? Because virtually nowhere where I grew up at that point had a disabled toilet. This was due to the fact that the U. S. has a disability rights movement that was slightly ahead of the U. K. 's. So I was freer to go about my holiday in the U. S. than I was technically at home. I couldn't go certain places because there weren't toilets, or there weren't ramps, because that had not been legalized. You know, there'd been no legislation. In the UK, there was [00:32:00] no disability legislation until 1995. You know, so technically, I was born in 1981. I had no specific extra legal rights that I needed for 14 years. Now some would say, "oh, that, you've got freedom there... the law has given you freedom.It's giving you the ability to move, but it's only given me the ability to move in approved ways, right? And so every single time somebody talks about room to move, my query is always, okay. "One, as I said, move in what way? And two, who taught you what method of movement is approved or disproved?" So, particularly in Europe, we have folks like the Romani, the Irish travellers, [00:33:00] even the so called New Age travellers, right, who are nomadic folks.And despite this obsession with freedom, the idea that people are nomadic, are shiftless and rootless, still exists. Yes, a degree. The degree of privilege, the degree that I could be, quote, "more confident going into public spaces." And you'll see this in American history and throughout European history as well.And when I was talking about the nomadic folks, I was saying, you know, there are only certain people who are allowed to move in certain ways, to travel in certain ways that are approved. In similar ways with disability there were only certain kinds of people who were allowed into public spaces.They might not have been legislated against in the mid twentieth century. They might have struck those off the books, but at [00:34:00] various points, at least in the US, if you look up the Chicago Ugly Laws, people who were regarded as vagrants or unsightly, were not allowed in public spaces. They could be jailed for that.It's not just loitering. It was very much anything that could give offense because they were physically disabled. Or, the idea that the physically disabled are more likely to be begging or doing things like that. That was all folded in. So, this notion of freedom as the ability to move and move in space.Despite the North American urge to be like, "well, nobody can tell me what to do." There's still a certain level of certain forms of movement are privileged or regarded as normal versus others. So, you know it's weird if you don't stay [00:35:00] in one place or perhaps, it's weird if you don't have a reason for your seasonal job, right?When I was a kid and a teenager... like I said, where I grew up was kind of known for surfing, right? And I met folks who would come from places like Australia and live in Volkswagen transporter vans and work in the seasonal hotels and then go surfing. And then sometimes in the winter they disappear off to Morocco.And you wouldn't see them for six months and they'd come back and there's all this kind of idea of Differing rhythms, which has really influenced my entire life because those folks, they were there there were hundreds of them you could see them parked on every road and I knew several of them very very well, but the fact of those seasonal rhythms, which weren't [00:36:00] approved. It wasn't approved that they didn't stay in one place and pay taxes. To some that might be, you know, "Oh, that's freedom! That's telling the government, I don't have to pay your taxes or I don't have to stay in one place and be a registered visible citizen. I can be a free spirit and go to Morocco whenever I want. But, the fact of it is, if you walked on the, on the roads, people would look at you funny, right?If you look at people who do long distance walking in areas that are drivable, I mean, especially I guess in North America, that's looked at as very, very, very strange, because you guys don't have the infrastructure. So, for me, it's this really strange notion that we're fixated on particular kinds of movement to do with agency and power, right?And we, we will say, "oh, [00:37:00] that's mobile, that's fast, that's quick, that's agile." And I'm always curious about what criteria we're using to say, "oh, that's fast, that's agile, that's nimble," when you look at the so called natural world, and you've got plants that are seemingly immobile, but they actually turn to the sun.You just don't notice it until you stick it on a stop motion camera. And then you're like, "wow, they move." But you could go past that plant every single day and be like, "yeah, it doesn't move. It's a plant. It just stays there." Right? Because our perception of what movement is and what is approved is based around one, what we're taught and two, what we see every day.But also three. What we can't notice unless we're forced to look at the same thing over and over again, right? [00:38:00] Because our tendency is to see one thing, think, "Oh, I know it. I've spotted it. I know what it is. I've identified it. It's fitted into my matrix of identity. I can move on now. It's all sorted." But the whole ethos, I guess, that I'm coming at iswhat if you don't know? What if you don't know? What if that microphone that I'm speaking into and you're speaking into it looks like a particular thing and you think you could describe a microphone to somebody but go down to say the flows of the electrons and it's a context issue. You know? And, and So, I'm interested in thinking about what are the contexts are in the room with us right now that we're not even paying any attention to, and not even in the room, in our own bodies, in our own language.Chris: Wow. Yeah, again, there's so much there. My [00:39:00] my thoughts just flew off into a million different directions. And I feel like it would probably take me a while to to gather them in.Craig: No problem. You do what you need to do. I mean, that's, that's the whole point. Chris: Yeah. So I had a queer crip travel writer named Bani Amor on the podcast in season three.And we were talking about the fallout and the consequences of the COVID 19 pandemic. And she said something like, you know, "the settler can't stay still. That the pandemic showed us that we can't stay still." In the context of that time that so many people who had been engaged in and who glorify or who simply have been taught to live a hyper mobile life, that there was this opportunity to question [00:40:00] that, to bring it into a different context.And I know a lot of people, couldn't necessarily leave their houses in the quote unquote lockdowns. But I don't think that wouldn't necessarily stop people from tending to or allowing themselves to witness the more than human world in that way. And so, my question is, assuming we have the opportunity, in some manner, in any manner, how do you think we might have our understandings of movements subverted, or at least challenged, by virtue of looking at the movement in the more than human world.Craig: Great question. I think one of the biggest notions, and I just want to return to that phrase, "the settler can't stay still." And really, agree with that, and so add to secondary things of what actually is stillness, right? We have [00:41:00] this idea of stillness as immobility, as, as, as perhaps staying in one place.Not moving, but actually, if we look at what we're doing when we're actually apparently still, there's still movement going on, right? There's still movement going on in our bodies. There's still a different kind of mobility going. And we're not the only ones, right? The more than human does this exactly as well.If you look at a rock, oh, you think a rock doesn't move? I mean, it doesn't move, but then you have erosion, right? Then you have the rain, and the way that particles are shaved off it, and it shifts. So, when we're thinking about outside, when we're thinking about... and when I say "more than [00:42:00] human," I'm not saying "better than human," I'm saying "exceeding the human," I just want to make that clear, it exceeds the boundaries of the human. Disability as mutual friend Bayo would define it is, I believe he said "it's a failure of power to contain itself." So, that's Bayo Akomolafe. And this notion that the world and the modern human flows through and beyond any sort of boundary, right? So, any outline we form is not immune in the sense of there's no boardwalk, right?A wall is not an untouchable upright edifice. It's actually touched and permeated, right? So everything in the more than human context interrelates and is, to a certain extent, degrees of [00:43:00] permeable. So, yeah, our cells keep certain things out, and let certain things in, but even the things they keep out, they're in contact with.They're relating to. Right? Because in the same way, with COVID 19 vaccine, people think, "oh, it's a vaccine. It's immunity, right? It'll stop me getting COVID. Or it'll stop me getting this, or stop me getting that." What it actually does is it has an interaction with your, the vaccine has an interaction with your immune system.There's a dialogue, there's a discussion, a call and response, which then engenders further responses in your body, right? So, there's constant relation that is ongoing. So, nothing is one and done, right? To borrow from Stefano Hani and Fred Moten No motion is ever completed, right? Nothing's [00:44:00] ever finished. It's not like we're gonna get off this and, and you'll be like, "oh, I've finished recording the podcast." Sure, you've hit the stop recording button, but the recording of the podcast is still ongoing. And there's this fundamental ongoingness, which is a product of the world.The world is worlding, right? And that means the most ordinary, mundane thing you can think of is ongoing. The mug I have right in front of me right now with tea in it. It's ceramic. It's been painted, but it's still ongoing, right? It still has the relation to the machines that shaped it. And it also has this ongoingness with the human history of pottery.Right? And people go, Oh, that's ridiculous. That's not practical. You know, "it's a mug," but I always [00:45:00] think. Isn't that just commodification? Like, is that not just saying it's a commodity, it doesn't have a story? Like, I don't want to get all Marxist here, but there's that real alienation from ongoingness and the fact that we also are ongoing attempts at relation. We're not even fixed identities. Our movements cannot be technically circumscribed because I have a disability which means I can't dance. Right? I use a wheelchair. I can't dance. I can't do the tango. Right? Okay. But everybody uses dance in a context of bopping to the music and doing all this thing and it's a bit like freedom. You know, everybody assumes that dance is a particular thing.But as Bayo and We Will Dance with Mountains, the course, the whole point of it being [00:46:00] called We Will Dance with Mountains is the fact that mountains don't dance like humans. Mountains dance like mountains. And the only way we spot how mountains dance is to actually pay attention to them and attempt to relate to them.We can't get out of our framework completely, but we can be open to say, what does our framework for a mountain miss about those massive landforms? What are we missing when we say a mountain doesn't move? And that's where you have references to indigenous and local stories that actually talk about these landforms, these places, these folklore places, as the living, moving beings that they actually are.Hmm. You know. Yeah, "okay, that stone circle over there was because a bunch of women were dancing on a [00:47:00] Sunday and in a Christian country, that's bad, so they got turned to stone," or in Scandinavia, "that rock there, it's actually a troll that got caught out in the sun." that these are living, ongoing beings and events, which it's not woo, it's actual or intellectual, I think.If you look at anything for long enough, you start to notice what's ongoing with it, even something that's solid and fixed. And that, to me, the gripping is the bending of the perception, right? That is queering, but crip-queering is that point where you have the restriction involved. People will talk about queer liberation, and yeah, we want crip liberation. That's cool. But if you think about crip liberation as, it might actually be the limits that bring us liberation.And then, if you track back [00:48:00] into mythologies long enough. You've got figures like Dionysus or then poetic gods who say, they're the ones that fetter you. They can bind you, but they can also set you free. And that is really interesting to me that a lot of these liberational figures also have a side that they can tie you up.And I don't just mean in a bondage sense. It's this notion that the two things, the two complexes are part of a whole thing, and you can't divide it into restricted and free and you can't escape. You can't pull a Harry Houdini from existence, which, to a certain extent, some people, when they go on holiday, engage in tourism, they're trying to escape for a little while, their other lives. But we all know you can't escape them. Mm-Hmm. But the inescapability of it is not bad. Right. By default, it's not [00:49:00] bad. It can be, but the assumption something is inescapable, just like, oh, something is disabling. Mm-Hmm. the assumption of good and bad. If you can hold that in abeyance and actually look at it for a second and go, Okay, what's going on here?Maybe our conceptions of this need reevaluating. Now the reason we don't do this on the regular, even in modernity, is because it takes a lot of effort and time to focus. And that's another benefit that I get as a disabled person, right? Because I can't use my time for a whole bunch of things that non disabled folks can.So I've got more time, I've got a different relationship to time and space, which means that I can sit and look at things with that differing relation to time and space, and be like "Huh, I never noticed that." And then I get to talk [00:50:00] about this stuff to folks like you, and people get surprised.And they're like, "you think about this all the day." I'm like, "no, I don't think about this. This is my life. This is how I live. This is my embrace of life, right? And this is my freedom to literally, Be like, " well, okay, my restrictions. How do they actually open me to the world?" And I'm not offering a prescription here, because everybody's different.But it strikes me that even the most nomadic person always carry stuff with them, right? And to borrow from Ursula K. Le Guin with her "Carrier Bag Story of Fiction," which Bayo talked about in We Will Dance The Mountains, the idea of what we're carrying is really interesting, but how often do we rummage in our own bags?Hmm. [00:51:00] Right? How often do we take off our backpacks and rummage just for the sake of it? Often we just look in the backpacks for something specific. Hmm. Right? Oh, I need a map. Oh, I need a chocolate bar. Oh, I need my, you know my iPad. We rarely stick our hands in and notice the way our clothing might shift around our fingers or the way, you know, the waterproofing is possibly coming off and means that the fabric has these different textures because we don't take the time and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's the fact that we don't have that relationship to time and space.And babies, kids do. It's why kids put things in their mouth. All those things where you're like, "Oh no, don't put that in your mouth, it's bad for you." They don't know that. But the whole point of putting it in their mouth and feeling it is to try and not [00:52:00] understand it, not get it.There's nothing there in a baby in its early function that says, "I must understand what that is." The understanding comes upon you through experience. But there's no bit, at least as far as I can work out, that's like, "I must understand what it is that I'm putting in my mouth."It's more like, "hmm, that tastes interesting, it has some interesting textures," and then your brain does all the work or your brain and your body mind do all the work, but the personhood isn't also doing all the work, just like the "I" of my body, right, my relationship with the "I", as in my sense of self, I have to expand that to my entire body, You know, because there's so much going on right now in this conversation that I'm not aware of, right?There's stuff going on in my room that I'm [00:53:00] not aware of, but it's going on now. And so I have to expand and that expansiveness also means I sometimes have to venture into realms of pain, right? Because I have chronic pain. And in order to fully experience that, sometimes I have to encounter that pain.I have to slow down and focus and go, "Oh, the chronic pain that I was mostly ignoring because just in the background, it suddenly leaped to the fore because I'm paying attention." Now, modernity says you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do stuff that causes you pain. Understandable in a certain context, but If I didn't understand that the pain was also part of the experience and changes how I move, if I didn't understand that chronic pain changes how time stretches, then I wouldn't be where I am.So the more than human permeates the human in ways [00:54:00] that the human is either deliberately trained to deny or doesn't even know is going on and the pandemic basically was, in my eyes, the more than human kind of knocking on the door going you are not this completely hermetically sealed box, right? Your society is not a hermetically sealed box. Chris: Amen. Amen. I mean, could have gone in a lot of different directions, but here we are, at least being able to reflect on it in a good way, and I'm reminded, this notion of abeyance and attention and, and the expansion of the I.I'm reminded of this, this line from Simone Weil who said that "absolutely unmixed attention is prayer." And so, I think that it, something like that is worthy of the times we, we wish to live in and perhaps sometimes do. Craig: [00:55:00] Definitely.Chris: And so, you know, I wish we had more time, Craig really getting into some beautiful black holes there. But hopefully we get the opportunity to speak again sometime.Craig: I'd be, be happy to. Be happy to. Chris: And so before we depart, I'd just like to ask the kind of token question that always comes at the end of interviews, which is where can our listeners find your work?And I'm pretty sure you had a book that came out last year entitled, Goetic Atavisms, if I'm not mistaken. Craig: Yes, I did. So you can find me on my mostly moribund, but strange little blog at cold-albion.net. And you can also pick up the book, which is, to be clear, more of an occult angle on this, but it also brings in the disability angle directly from the publisher Hadean Press or you could get it from, you know, the Bezos Behemoth, if you really [00:56:00] wanted. I am also not really on social media as a project, but I'm also on you know Blue Sky, so you can search me up there, or Mastodon, which you could always search me up there, and I occasionally post things on there.Chris: Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure that all those links and connections are available for our listeners once the episode launches. And I very much look forward to reading Goetic Activisms myself. So, thank you so much, Craig.Chris: Thank you, Chris. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

This week we sit down with event organizer, Ben Brainard to discuss the Shasta Gravel Hugger. Founded in 2020, this March event in Northern California has proven to be a great season opener for many gravel cyclists. Episode Sponsor:  Hammerhead Karoo 2 Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show. We welcome Ben Bernard, the founder of the Shasta gravel hugger event in Northern California taking place in March each year for the last four years. It's become a real great early season option. For those of you looking to test your metal in the early parts of the year and not able to go out to some of the Midwest gravel races, like the mid south. Ben has a real interesting approach to the race. He's got a great area to play with around Mount Shasta. If you've never been there before, it's a real amazing. Landmark. In the region, if you're driving, say from San Francisco up to Oregon, you pass through the town of Mount Shasta and then around on the north side of the mountain and the views are absolutely spectacular. I've got a number of friends from Marin county who love this event and have been up on a number of occasions. As Ben will describe the weather sometimes plays a factor in the event and really dramatically affects your choice of equipment for this early season race. Before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead caru to computer this ad read for my friends at hammerhead is very timely. As I literally just got in my inbox, my email for my latest. Software update. The hammerhead crew. Two's the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. With industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities. That set us apart from other GPS options. So you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. That keeps getting underscored every single time I get one of these software updates, because I know the team at hammerhead are a listening. And be working and pushing out responses. So I love that about the crew to the crew too. If you don't know, it's got a touch screen display that's intuitive and responsive and full color. So your navigation experience is more like a smartphone than that, of a typical GPS device. You can see your data more clearly than ever. While also withstanding rugged conditions since it's water and scratch resistance. I've talked about the hammerheads climber feature with predictive path technology before. It allows you to visualize and prepare for upcoming gradient changes in real time. With or without the root loaded. I love this when going to gravel events, because I'm someone who just, I like to know if I'm going to sit in and grind or whether I should try to power over something. Because it's a short climb. This is all available in real time on the crew too. That's why I trust it as my head unit this year and I will do so again, next year. Hammerhead has been previously named bicycling magazines, editor choice, award. In the GPS cycling category. So you don't need to take my word for it. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor strap with the purchase of a hammerhead crew to simply visit hammerhead.io right now. And use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout. Someone in the ridership mentioned to me that the way to get the e-commerce system work is go ahead and put the hammerhead crew two in your cart first. And then add the heart rate monitor, and that coupon code, the gravel ride. After the fact to make sure you don't run into any hiccups. And hopefully. You can get a new hammerhead to computer in front of you for your next year's riding endeavors. With all that said let's jump right into my conversation with ben [00:04:04] Craig: Ben. Welcome to the gravel ride podcast. Cast [00:04:07] Ben: Thanks for having me. It's, it's an honor. [00:04:09] Craig: I'm excited. I, you know, Shasta being not dramatically far away from my, from where I live and certainly a place that I've been before, ever since I started seeing the Shasta gravel hugger on the calendar. I've been excited to talk to you cuz it's a beautiful area and I wanna learn, learn more about the event. [00:04:27] Ben: Excellent. You got it. It is a beautiful area. I've just loved going, riding my bike down there, especially in the winter, as I've said before this time of year it is, it is perfect. We got great smooth roads and the weather is usually pretty stinking good except for on race day. Yeah. I wanna [00:04:43] Craig: step back and talk about that a little bit later. But before we get get into the race itself, why don't we just learn a little bit about yourself? How did you find your way into that region? How'd you find your way to gravel cycling? . [00:04:55] Ben: Yeah, I've been in the valley here for I guess about 22 years. The Rogue Valley that is, so I'm, I'm north of where the race is by about a 45 minute drive. You know, like most people work brought us here. And then I got immersed in, in work for several years and, and finally when that led up a little bit, Picked up my bike about, you know, from, from a young age I was riding bikes, but, but not racing bikes. And about 12 years ago I started racing and then slowly found my way into gravel and then yeah, eventually promotion. It's crazy. So, [00:05:34] Craig: so to set the context for our listeners, I've been up to Shasta, I've been north of Shasta. On my way to Bend, I think is what normally I go by Shasta and, and, and continue up that road. It's a pretty rural part of Northern California. So can you des just sort of describe the area and maybe paint a picture for, you know, what brings people there? What's the sort of the economic engine of the region, et cetera. [00:05:59] Ben: Yeah, I would say timber is what developed this area. And, and so, so that's the main thing. We've seen less and less timber. I. In this area, you know, the mills have kind of dwindled down to where there's, you know, one big one or something. And, and so I would say now this particular area is recreation is a big, a big thing. And then secondary would be tourism yeah, tourism. And, and I just slipped me, what was the, the other one I was gonna say. But but yeah, it's a beautiful area and it's a great place to visit. . Yeah, [00:06:33] Craig: certainly Mount Shasta. I guess I first became aware of it because of the mountain at Mount Shasta and the desire to climb it and go up. It, it's just sort of, it's an attainable, quote unquote mountaineering experience for a lot of people. And I know they've got, you know, a great outfitter right there in, in, in downtown Mount Shasta to help you get up the mountain. And that's where I first got exposed to it and mm-hmm. , it was clear. Obviously there's a lot of wilderness around that area. I stopped there once on my mountain bike on the way home from Ben to explore a little bit, but just kind of got the, the tip of the iceberg for what the terrain is around there. When you think about like where you live now and around Shasta itself, how would you describe the, the, the gravel biking terrain that. [00:07:18] Ben: Yeah. Oh man. We have so many gravel roads. So, you know, I live just over the border in Oregon in the rogue Valley. And our gravel roads are for the most part, very pristine, like very well developed gravel roads. The problem we have around here is they almost all go up the side of a mountain. And so, , they're great roads to ride in the summer, but in the wintertime, you're gonna, you're gonna bump into, into snow pretty early on and get turned around a lot of the time. And so that's what led me to, to going down into the Shasta area because I, I can ride these awesome gravel roads the strata Bianchi roads and, and, and stay below, let's say 3000 feet most of the time. And that way I, I can, I can stay outta the. Interesting. [00:08:06] Craig: Yeah, that it, it didn't dawn on me that actually Shasta would have better weather than where you are. [00:08:13] Ben: Yeah, it's, I would say it has a few more sunny days in this area. I mean, I could, I could have drizzle here, go up over the Siskiyou, pass in, into Siskiyou County and, and voila, it's a sunny day. It's, yeah, it's quite a bit about the weather in the wintertime, especially. . [00:08:30] Craig: Interesting. So you mentioned you sort of rediscovered the bicycle about a dozen years ago, and eventually during that path you started riding off road. Was that by virtue of the fact that there's just so many dirt roads around where you [00:08:42] Ben: were? Yeah, well, I, I would say that I found gravel and dirt roads from a good friend Tom Neland, who started putting on the honey badge Arise, which are, are are pretty fun event around here. A free event. And he's the one that introduced me to the gravel roads in the Mount Shasta area. So I had, I had an old Hardtail mountain bike that I used for commuting, and they had some, I don't know, two inch slicks on it or something like that. 26 er. And, and I went to one of his honey Badger rides, which they kind of focus. unique courses and, and gravel. And and that's how I found the gravel bike. And from there it was just riding cross bikes. And I actually been, I, geez, I guess three or four years that I've been racing gravel pretty seriously. I mean, as. as a primary source for, for my events that I attend. And, but I got my first gravel bike this last year. It's right here behind me. But most of the roads around here are so nice that a cross bike is absolutely fine. I mean, if you don't need to go beyond 30 fives [00:09:48] Craig: usually. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a, a quite a big leap between finding a love of riding gravel bikes and riding on dirt roads to creating an event. , what made you decide to take that leap? And remind me when the first Shaster gravel hugger event was? [00:10:06] Ben: The first event was in 2000, March of 2000. So, it's four years. This next year will be our fourth year of putting, no, [00:10:14] Craig: 2020, sorry. Yeah, 2020 was the first [00:10:16] Ben: one. Yeah. Yeah. 2020. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. And it's grown steadily ever since. [00:10:21] Craig: and was the first one. Did you just sort of put it out there, Hey, come one, come all, or did you put a little organization, a lot of organization behind it? [00:10:30] Ben: Yeah. You know, in 2020 there were some, some big rides, obviously some big races, and, and I was drawn to those events and so I'm like, well, geez, we have these beautiful roads here. You know, we need an. In this region, they're, of which they're, you'd have to go to Bend to get a gravel race or, or, or, or the Grasshopper series in Northern California, which are still several hours south of here. And so, so yeah, I just decided that these, these roads kind of reminded me of the strata Bianca Roads, these beautiful white crush granite roads. , wanted to mimic the, the Strata Bianchi and the Peru Bay. That was the original plan, but we had a couple promoters around here and they like to put on events and, and, and like small little local events, and I wanted to try to make this more of a regional national type of event. And so I figured. Someone that had the passion for, and the vision for this particular type of a race probably should be at the helm. And so I decided, you know, the whole, I guess I'll do it myself kind of a thing. And, and it, it must take off. So it's great. And did you, was it [00:11:40] Craig: always sitting in early March as the time it was held? [00:11:44] Ben: Yeah. I originally had plans to, to call it strata something, you know, mimicking the strata Bianchi roads. But eventually I just didn't want the conflict with that particular race. And it's on the same exact day as strata Bianchi. And so we kind of, I wanted to put it early in the year because as we all know, as the summer goes on, the race counter gets more and more competi. This particular week is one week ahead of Midsouth. I did not want to try to go up against the Midsouth. If I'm trying to be a a national type race, then, then, then you wouldn't automatically go up against Midsouth. Yeah. And so I kind of placed it on the calendar right here for those two reasons originally. And, and then the third thing is when, when I was training riding turbos in, in the, in the winter. , I wanted to get out and do an early event. You know, like even if you're just, you know, doing some base work or something like that, you still kind of want to go out and test yourself and, and, and this is perfect. It, it, it fit into how it, it fit in exactly to a spot that I would want a race personally. Yeah. So, yeah. That's kind of, that [00:12:51] Craig: makes a lot of sense how either there, yeah. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Like I know any Wouldbe race organizer at this point, there's gravel events throughout the. And to your point, like if you want to create an event that can occupy a little bit more of a national profile and kind of be a destination, that early season spot is one that's open and granted, not everybody's gonna have the wherewithal to go to Mid-South, but it certainly has the name and. The recognition and sponsors that is gonna draw a lot of athletes and not head going head-to-head with it, but also similarly for recreational athletes. Providing that early season goal and opportunity I think makes a ton of sense with that March date. As I've seen pictures over the years. , you have experienced some dramatic weather. Can you kind of describe kind of the, you know, just the many different personalities the course can have based on the weather conditions? [00:13:49] Ben: Yeah. Like I've said, this area has fantastic weather in the wintertime, but we have been, I don't blessed cursed. I don't know what, but we. all three years that we've had the race so far, we've had snow on course at some point, you know, and so year number one was probably the worst year if you ask me. It was cold, it was raining at the start, and then by the time we got to the highest point of the race, there was snow on the ground. So you dig back in the photos of, of that first race and, and it, and it was pretty sloppy and, and and. The next year we had snow overnight, but it was a beautiful sunny day and it just created these just in incredible pitchers. The course was good except for, you know, the infamous Jeep Trail, which which was just saturated actually, and so it, it, it didn't have a chance to dry out, but But these roads, for the most part, with the exception of this Jeep Road, east Louis Jeep Road, that seems to be pretty famous in this race. The roads hold up to all kinds of weather, so well the majority of 'em are gonna be just if you get some rain in the week ahead. They are faster than most pavement roads. So they're big, wide open county maintained gravel roads that are really smooth. Most of the. [00:15:07] Craig: Yeah, I was, when I was on the Shasta Gravel hugger website, I was looking at the tire recommendations as I often do for, for travel events. And you made mention like totally capable in a, in a dry ish road, gravel day 30 twos to 37. You're, you're, you're all good. Mm-hmm. . But if it's actually wet on the course, all of a sudden it's a different. [00:15:29] Ben: Yeah. We have, we've had road bikes do well, so Luke lamp party came up here and raced on a road bike with, he could stuff some 30 millimeters in there. And it was one of the years it was super wet. Could he have been higher than third place with, with a proper gravel bike? Possibly that particular year, but like last year, I would say that. He, he might have been able to win it on a, on a road bike. And that's the fun thing about this particular race, like we call it gravel and it, it, it attracts a lot of people, but it is almost half pavement. So. It is a real, I try to do the build up the sectors. And the reason we have sectors is because there's gravel sections. And then of course we have, you know, maybe, I think our longest one's like a 12 mile section of pavement. And, and so yeah, picking the right tires is, is huge. And, and if you can get away with running some 32 millimeter slicks, like I write it a lot. my cross bike with, with kind of a road ish wheel on 'em, and, and it does fine. So yeah, let's dig [00:16:34] Craig: into the courses that are available to riders now for the 2023 edition. What, what course options do you have? [00:16:41] Ben: Yeah, our big one is called the Full Hug and it's a hundred miles and it has about 4,500 feet of climbing in it. I wanna. And then we have the half hug. I kind of like the bro hug. It's like it's half, half that. It's, it's a hundred kilometers. It is just a, just I think 65 miles with about 4,000 feet of climbing. So it's, it's close. Most of the climbing's in the second half of the, of the race. And then brand new this year, we are adding a more social. Loop, which is gonna be 35 miles. And, and we have also added an e-bike, which is something that's brand new for me to include an e-bike option in, in, in the [00:17:21] Craig: race. So, interesting. And it sounds like, from what you were saying before in our tire discussion, from a technical perspective, no one should be too nervous about what they're gonna get into up there. [00:17:32] Ben: Yeah. I mean, we have one high speed descent. Might, would definitely make you wish you had some different tires on if you're, if you went small. But all aid, all ages, all levels. We'd be fine. Just, you know, you gotta be careful. People can recognize when, when it's getting dangerous and slow down, so, yeah. Yeah, for the most part, roads are [00:17:51] Craig: fantastic. And then are you providing aid stations out there on the course for the riders? [00:17:56] Ben: Yeah, so we have, last year we had two main aid stations and then a third. Third was just in an emergency aid station that wasn't quite stocked as much close to the end in case someone was crashing and boning or something like that. Most people didn't stop at that one, but yeah, fully supported. We encourage everyone to use our aid stations as opposed to try to seek outside help along along the way. You know, we try to discourage and make it fair enough for everybody if they don't have a, a dad to hand water bottles up in random spots. So we encourage everyone to, if they do want something special from, from a teammate or a family member, then do it in our, in our speed zones. [00:18:35] Craig: Yeah. When you think about how you're promoting the event and the types of athletes that you're trying to attract, Are you categorizing this as a full throttle race? You know, if there's a spectrum between like hardcore race and gravel ride, where are you trying to sit? And I realize that you could answer that differently for the 10% at the front of the race versus the rest of us. But I'd just be interested to kind of get your thought process on how you're, you're categorizing it. [00:19:01] Ben: Yeah, I mean, I would, I, I'd categorize it as a race, like, yeah, we're chip timed, we are keeping track of different age groups, so yeah, full on race. But it, it falls into the, the gravel theme of you know, the molet, you know, we have let the racers race and then if anyone wants to, you know, just go out there and knock off a, a big, long day, then. We'd love to have them too, so, so yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's definitely a, a party for some and, and, But we always try to maintain that there's a race going on and we try to promote the race piece of it too. Because, you know, we're trying to attract these big professional racers to come, which will, you know, create excitement for the everyday person to come and see how they stack up against people. So it's been fun. [00:19:52] Craig: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And if I look back over the last few years, for whatever reason, whatever you've done, the timing, the location, the ethos you have managed to attract, Several or dozens of elite riders to come and chest their metal there in March. [00:20:08] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Originally, you know, it's an interesting story. So you're number two. So you're number one is, was the start of covid. So we're in March of 2000 2020, excuse me. And. And there's some grumbling about Covid of course. And then we pretty much shut down, right? And then there was hardly any races that year. And then the next year is like in the early spring it felt like, okay, things are starting to, to open up and, and a county like Siski I don't know. They, they would kind of, I just think they kind of poo-pooed the, the co covid thing in that area, the maj majority of people. And, and so they were welcoming of us trying to do something that year. And so year number two, we really quickly threw it together and And the funny story is that I noticed that Pete Stetner was, was liking some of my Instagram posts. And so I'm like, huh. So we shot Pete a quick message and he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm open that week and I'd love, love to come, kind of a thing. And, and . And so I would say he was the start of the, the professionals showing up to the race. And then we were able to leverage that Pete, you know, hey, Pete's coming and you know, we got Jacob Rath Raey come down from, from the Portland area. So we had a couple of pros in year number two. And then in year number two, the women's field was, was even probably more stacked top to bottom. There was, I think only 13 of the, the women's pros, but we had Clara Hansinger, we had Maude Farrell, and then of course Moe Wilson. That was, that was our, our, our, our podium with ma taking the wind. Mo second and Clara Haunting are third. So, so yeah, it, it's definitely. The interest of the, the regional pros. And then last year Adam, Rob, you know, he's coming all the way over from Quebec, but he just wanted one, an event and one that wasn't in, in snow and winter. And so he came out here and, and yeah, we got Brennan words coming up from, from the Marin County and, and, and had a great showdown last year with some really strong writers. Yeah. [00:22:13] Craig: Yeah. It's, it's been, it's been fun to watch the kind of growth, and I, I think you'll continue to see people get attracted to it. Again, it's just good part of the calendar. Mm-hmm. , clearly it's got enough ca like enough quality terrain and racers up there to make it a, a worthwhile early season test of your fitness. [00:22:32] Ben: Yeah, exactly. This next year though, the calendar has become quite a bit more competitive on my, my day because Belgian Waffle Wright has. That they are gonna be holding a, an event in Arizona on the same weekend. So the, so now the work is for me to try to, you know, attract these, these pros to come to my event over, over heading to Arizona, which, I mean, March in Arizona sounds pretty good to me but but yeah, [00:23:00] Craig: yeah, yeah. I think there's room for, you know, if you put on great events, , there's room for multiple events on the same day at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. , there's people looking for different things. I think you also mentioned over email some, some initiatives that you've put forth and maybe some changes in how you're kind of rolling people out during the day. Do you wanna talk about some of those 20, 23 initiatives? [00:23:21] Ben: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, there's. There's been some chatter amongst the, the female racers. Now a lot of them like to see how they stack up, up, up against the men, but there's also been a decent amount of chatter about how unsafe it is for them to try to be going out there and competing in these, these massive, this mass participation events that that have a ton of guys that they're trying to jockey with. And so this next year if as long as we get enough in the field to make it worthwhile, we are going to ship the women off 15, 15 minutes ahead of the men's race so that they don't have to go deal with that first sector and the chaos associated with that. They will, we'll also be able to give them a chance to, to kind of highlight the women and, and announce who's here and who's competing and, and, and give their sponsors a sh a shout out and. and then, then we send them off and then we can go about bringing the guys up 15 minutes later. And then, you know, I just ahead [00:24:21] Craig: a follow up question on that, Ben, when you, when you think about that first sector, is there elevation, is there technicality? What do you imagine happening during those first 15 minutes that allow the women to sort of have a sense of more autonomous racing for that portion? [00:24:37] Ben: Yeah, so the first sector is, is I, I wanna say it's about six miles. It's relatively flat. The first, the first quarter of a mile last year was in relatively loose gravel, and then it got pretty nice and smooth after that. So, so the first quarter of a mile it was, it was pretty chaotic. It was pretty dusty, and, and it was definitely, If you weren't in the preferred two lines, you know, you are out in some, some loose gravel and so, so yeah, I, it made for a hairy first couple of minutes of the race and, and the race ha at that point was already on. I, I think the original attack with with Adam and Br Brennan was right before they went onto that sector, so it was already full race mode. So yeah, it was extremely hectic. [00:25:26] Craig: Yeah, it's interesting. And before I ask this next question, I wanna state, I don't know the right answer to this mm-hmm. and I think. Over time, it's gonna evolve, and it may even be on an event by event basis, but as the women are, are set out 15 minutes ahead and granted it will give them a clean look at that first sector and the ability for some women to attack one another and perhaps to kind of stretch out the field. At some point the front end of the men's race is going to start interacting with those female athletes out front. And I don't know if you've gotten this feedback from the women. As the, as the elite men start to come through, obviously there's gonna be women who have fitness who attempt to glom onto some wheels and, and kind of get caught up in the momentum of the men's peloton. How do you kind of imagine that playing out? [00:26:16] Ben: That's a great question. And I think, I think it's one that I'm gonna look, I'm gonna probably look to a few of our, our professional ladies that are coming in to help guide me on that. So, so the big question is like, do we do. tell them like, Hey, don't jump on wheels. This you're in your own little race. Or, or like year number two, when we had wave starts they just were able to jump on whatever they wanted to. And, and so I, I don't know the answer to that question, but we as. By the time we roll off on race day, I hope to have a, a very clear explanation to all the racers about what we're, what we hope to see out there. [00:26:58] Craig: Yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good approach. I mean, obviously like the women should be leading this conversation about what makes sense, I suspect, but don't know that, you know, they will think it's fair game to grab wheels. Like it's, it's implausible that over a hundred mile day mm-hmm. . Racers are gonna work with racers. That's just sort of the nature of bike racing, right? So it's hard to imagine everybody's saying like, okay, we all agree cause it's just gonna be super hard to police. But I just think it's interesting and I, again, like I've, I've seen a number of races attempt this approach where they're giving a 15 minute head start. We've obviously seen the co-mingled starts. We've seen lots of different derivatives of this, and I do think that as a community, as we put these offers out there, it's just important to be open and say like, Hey, we don't know what the right solution is. But potentially after the year of 2023, at a bunch of these tests, if you will, going out and getting feedback from women, we'll arrive at something that makes sense, that still has that community feel, but elevates the safety, elevates the ability for the sport to high. Female athletes as much as oftentimes the ma male athletes get [00:28:15] Ben: highlighted. Exactly. That's been, that's definitely been my initiative for the, for the last several years is, is to try to, to, to give these ladies a, a chance, I mean, . We originally had ideas of doing a, a reverse discrimination prize purse because, you know, women's cycling has been so underfunded or, you know, the rewards or or prize money was, was so minuscule compared to, to the men's races that, that that we wanted to like highlight that as, as one of the things, we have a prize purse for the women only. but with permitting in California, that's not allowed. , you can't have discriminatory prize purses anymore, which is great for, for women across all the different events. But but yeah, we're trying to highlight these ladies and, and probably some of 'em have a harder time, you know, making the same kind of sponsorship money as, as a, a guy of similar skills. So, [00:29:07] Craig: yeah. Yeah, it's certainly an interesting problem and I think the important thing is, people are talking about it. And again, that the, the women who are involved are having the lion share of opinion and we can just use their opinions as guidance as it relates to the race in its entirety. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. And so, how large of a field do you typically see at the Shasta Gravel hogger hugger? [00:29:30] Ben: Yeah, so last year we had 400 people take the sign up for the race, and then we had about 335, I wanna say that actually went across our start line. So yeah, I mean that's kind of, that's kind of where we were last year. We, we have grown every single year that we've been in existence, so hopefully, you know, we can see something north of 500 this year. [00:29:52] Craig: And great. When, when we, I mean we've talked through what to exper, what to expect in terms of the course terrain and what type of equipment you'd like to see people ride at the end of the event. What does that experience look like if someone's making time to spend their weekend up with you at, in Shasta, what, what expectations should they have after the race? [00:30:12] Ben: Yeah, we definitely wanna try to bring the party to the after. After the race. So yeah, we have a burrito truck last year and most likely they'll be back again this year. So nice big burrito to finish off the day. Beer and and then of course, everyone telling their war stories, so. people hung, hung around until dark last year. And so yeah, there's a, there's a nice little after party. Last year we had a band the brothers Reid, and they absolutely killed it. But I found like most people weren't paying attention to the band. They were. Telling their war stories. And so probably not gonna bring a band back. We'll just be playing, you know, some good music in the background and, and let the racers chat about what they, what happened out there, . Nice. [00:30:56] Craig: And so give the listener a few benchmarks. So if you were coming from San Francisco, for example, how, how long does it take to get up to Shasta or if you're coming from somewhere in Oregon? [00:31:05] Ben: Yeah, I, I mean, you can get, I think it's about four hours from Portland down. And then similar from, from the Bay Area maybe a little bit less because there's 45 minutes, I guess to here. But so yeah, it's, it's, it's a pretty easy drive. I wouldn't suggest doing it before a 9:00 AM start, but you probably could from the Bay Area if you were got up nice and early. [00:31:28] Craig: Yeah, I was gonna ask that. Are people typically staying overnight in Shasta, the nights before? [00:31:32] Ben: Yeah. The, there's Yreka is the closest town with hotels. That's only about a 10 minute drive or probably even less than that. And there's plenty of hotel rooms there. A lot of people stay in weed and Mount Shasta, which Are also great places, but I wanna say 25 to 40 miles away. Okay. 25 to weed. So, so yeah, there's more like rental properties. If you're like doing a VRBO or Airbnb or something like that, there's more in the Mount Shasta area. That tends to be a little more of a, of a recreation type town. So, so there's, yeah, there's plenty of options. But the thing, one of the things that we've. Every year so far is in the parking lot. Next to the, the start finish line is, is plenty of room and we've allowed camping on site. So if you van camping, RV camping, if you can get your, if you can get your rig in there and, and not get stuck, then, then and then yeah, it's have at it free. Yeah. [00:32:29] Craig: For a hot second there. I just had in my mind, oh, it's in Mount Shas. The mountain of Shasta is obviously covers a vast area, and certainly, yeah, again, remembering my, my, my trips up to Oregon. Once you get past Shasta and Shasta, the town, and on the other side of the mountain, amazing, spectacular views of Mount Shasta through that valley. [00:32:51] Ben: Yeah, we we're kind of, we're, we're almost all north of Mount Shasta, so I mean, we, we go down and we touch weed, which would, I would kind of say is like the southern part of the Shasta Valley. And then Mount Shasta would be further south and more like on the side of the mountain. And so if you want the great views of the mountain, then the North, north Valley is where you want to be. And we. . Oh, just so many. Incredible. If the, if the mountain is out as they like to say, it's, it's absolutely stunning from many, many different spots on on the course. Some, some have even said it's distracting. It's, it's so, It's so beautiful. [00:33:32] Craig: So yeah. Yeah, I would agree. It's one of the like the beautiful things about driving through that valley, which often seems like a, it takes forever, but the nice thing is you've got that amazing mountain view the entire time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, I'm super glad to finally get you on the show, Ben, to talk about this event. I love the sounds of it. I love that area. Like I totally recommend it from a, a visual perspective and everything you've talked about, the writing makes me believe that it is a great early season event. [00:33:59] Ben: Yeah, I sure hope so. And, and hope to see this thing continue to grow through, through the next couple of years. So hope to make some nice announcements here soon about cool people that are attending. So people are starting to finalize their. Schedules for this next year and, and yeah, hope to make some announcements. Right [00:34:17] Craig: on. And I'll throw the gravel hugger.com link in the show notes so people know how to find you. But they can also just search Shasta gravel hugger and they'll get to the right location. [00:34:27] Ben: Absolutely. Super easy. Yep. And if you wanna find out a little bit about what the race is We have a race recap on YouTube. You can also just google Shasta gravel hugger on YouTube and, and there's a 20 minute recap of what happened last year and we hope to do something similar this next, next year to, to kind of give everyone a feel of what, how the race goes. So, [00:34:49] Craig: awesome. Thanks, man. [00:34:51] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel rod podcast. Big thanks to our sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead kuru. To computer. And huge thanks to ben for coming on i've been curious about the shasta gravel hugger for awhile and was happy to learn more about At The event. I'll put all the appropriate links in the show notes. So you can go find and check out that video on YouTube that Ben was mentioning. If you're interested in connecting with me or other riders in the area, please join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. It's a free online cycling community, open to anybody and filled with gravel cyclists from around the world. If you're interested in able to support the podcast. You can visit, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Any contribution or support is greatly appreciated. Or if you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. And really help with our discoverability. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels  

This week we sit down with Lizard Skin founder, Brian Fruit to learn the original story of the brand founded in 1993. From cycling bar tape and accessories now to baseball, hockey and lacrosse, the brand has had an interesting journey making its products in the United States. Lizard Skins Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (code: TheGravelRide for free HRM strap) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Lizard Skins [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show. We welcome Brian fruit, the founder of lizard skins. Was there a skin spin part of the cycling industry since 1993. It's been quite an incredible journey for the company. Y'all know how much I love the business side stories behind the brands we know and love. So I was super excited to get into it with Brian and just learn more about the journey. With respect to their bar tape. What I find is interesting is that the material they have is definitely. Sort of on the gummy air side and you'll hear Brian, describe a bit about that product. But also it's worth noting. They offer four different sizes of kind of the diameter. Of the bar tape, which really changes the feel you can go from super thin. I E a lot of bar feel all the way out to kind of pair Ruby style, super cush. Which I think is an interesting option that you don't see across the board. A lot of times when you go into your local bike shop, You see only one diameter tape that's available. So it's an interesting thing to play around with and something I've enjoyed while testing out some of the lizard skin tape. Just before we jump in, I need to thank this week sponsor the hammerhead crew to. I am literally in Spain as you're listening to this, I'm recording this intro just before I'm boarding my flight and definitely thinking about all the adventures I'm going to have on the roads of Jarana. I thought about borrowing a computer from the group that I'm going with, but it was from another brand that I had a little bit of a bad experience with back way back when. I've come to love many things about my hammerhead computer. And I am convinced it's the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. It's got industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options. Free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites. Mean that my riding in Gerona. I won't be without information. I'll have everything at my fingertips. As I'm saying all this, I'm literally reminding myself that I should go download the country maps. So I've got everything on hand. In my hammerhead crew to device. Hammerhead gives bi-weekly software updates. So the features are always up to date. And they're always listening. You can provide feedback to the team in hammerhead and potentially it's going to end up in a software update. You're not locked to a particular software package because they're always upgrading it. I really look for the climber feature. That's one of my favorite features these days. It was particularly poignant for me when I was riding in, uh, Bentonville Arkansas, a few weeks back at the big sugar gravel event, all those punchy climbs. I was really on the limit. I'm much more of a sit and grind on the coastal range here in California. So this punchy climbs or something I wasn't used to. So understanding exactly how far I was to the top and how many candles I could burn staying with the groups I was desperate to stay with really came in handy. So very much recommend the hammerhead crew to it's my exclusive computer. For gosh, probably over a year now. I'm not the only one singing its praises. It was named bicycling magazines, editors choice in GPS, cycling computers. For the past two years. Take a look on their websites for a limited time offer our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of a hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead IO right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. Remember it's an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride for that free heart rate monitor strap. Would that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Brian. Hey Brian, welcome to the show. [00:04:27] Brian Fruit: Awesome. Super glad to be beyond today. [00:04:30] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm excited to dig into Lizard Skins a little bit, but I'd love to start out, as we always do, by a little bit about your history and how you ultimately got into cycling, and let's talk about the origin story of lizard skin. [00:04:44] Brian Fruit: Well, that's a, that's a good one. Yeah, it's been. Three decades ago now dating myself a little bit I was a college student at BYU and I got my first mountain bike. I worked, you know, most of the summer and saved up some money and got a mountain bike and, and thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. Not just for the awesome writing that we were able to do in the mountains. Just as a way to get around campus and commute. It was just so much more liberating than fighting the parking spots. So I just fell in love with cycling. I think I'd, you know, from a very small age, I've always loved everything with wheels on it. And then this mountain bike was, that was a revelation. So fast forward a few more years and I'm a senior about to graduate and there's a company. Called Reflex bikes. [00:05:35] Craig Dalton: I remembered them. [00:05:36] Brian Fruit: yeah, they made these cool lugged frames. You know, some of them were aluminum tubes, some of 'em were carbon tubes, and they sold to another company. Look, that makes, you know, pedals and things like that. [00:05:49] Craig Dalton: And did Reflex have some sort of Utah connection or were you just familiar? [00:05:54] Brian Fruit: they were making 'em here in Utah, [00:05:56] Craig Dalton: I, Wow, I didn't know that. I had a girlfriend who had that one of those bikes in the very early nineties. [00:06:02] Brian Fruit: Did it creak? [00:06:03] Craig Dalton: It creeped. And the one thing I remembered too about it was that there was some really challenging cable routing. So when it came time to build it up, it was like a nightmare. Getting something through the bottom bracket, I think was what I struggled with. [00:06:17] Brian Fruit: Yeah. So it was a cool bike and it had a great designer and, and he had sold the business. And, and moved over to Europe actually to, to work on design there. And, and apparently there was a, a trademark issue on the name reflex. And the people that owned it were no longer willing to allow that name to be used. And so, Look just said, I think we're just done with this, but this doesn't make sense for us to be involved with. So they decided to liquidate everything. So rims and cranks and headsets, and you name it, bottom brackets, shifters, handlebar. And, and so they sent out these postcards to all these stores, and my friend worked as a bike patrol at Sundance Ski Resort, brought the. Postcard home. And I'm like, that's kind of interesting. So I drove up there the next day and I bought $300 worth of bike parts. Didn't have any money. I was just a college student and all the way home like, Oh, what am I doing? I don't have 300 bucks is the worst decision ever. And I sold all those parts that night to just random people in the apartment complex and friends that I rode with. It's cuz there was no social media back then. This is, you know, early 90. 92, I believe. And and the next day I went up there again, like, you know, being drawn to the, you know, bike parts, like the bug to the blue light zapper, and bought like $300 of the parts again and all the way home. Like, Oh, what am I doing? This is the worst decision ever. Sold all those parts again. And that was it. You know, over the next six weeks I was buying and selling parts and I sold them to bike stores and I sold them to individuals and I, I sold about $30,000 worth of parts, made a decent amount of money on that, bought my wife a wedding ring and saved up a little money for us to get married. And, and that's kind of how how my life got started. You know, in the bike world, I just kind of fell in love with the whole, the whole scene and, and not the people, but even like the smells when you walk into a bike store, I just like the smell of a bike store. It just, I know that sounds weird, but it just feels right in bike stores. I, even, when I'm on vacation, I like to go try to find a bike store to pop my head in and look around, so, [00:08:49] Craig Dalton: What an, that's an amazing kind of origin story, and I love the name dropping of reflex. It brings back very, very fond memories for me. So did you continue sort of pursuing kind of like a distribution type business model? [00:09:04] Brian Fruit: So, that lasted for about six weeks. You know, they were selling all those parts at this big discount and that just kind of made me think, man, something in the bike industry would be really fun. And we looked at two or three ideas and, and. None of 'em actually worked out. And then a friend introduced me to another friend and that guy's name was Lance Larson. And Lance had this idea of making neoprene and Velcro accessories for bicycles and calling 'em lizard skin. and but Lance wasn't a, a writer and he wasn't really familiar with the space. So he and I connected and, and in the simplest terms, the original, you know, premise was that he would make the products and I would sell 'em. It, it didn't really work out exactly like that. There was a lot more crossing over, back and forth, but Lance and I got to work together for eight and a half years. And, and built the company from nothing. The very first month we did $350 of annual sales. [00:10:09] Craig Dalton: Do you remember what the first product was that you came out with? [00:10:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, yeah, it was the little neoprine and Velcro chainstay protector and man, they were small back then. It was like a really small length and really small diameter. And now, you know, they make the tubes so much larger. You know, the, the old one wouldn't even fit on a bike today. [00:10:29] Craig Dalton: Yep. Yeah. If you think about those old steel tube change stays that used to wrap, they were tiny, like the, like the size of your pink. [00:10:36] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so small. Exactly. And we made all kinds of fun colors and, and we made these little headset seals that would keep the dirt and grim out of the headset. And then eventually we started making fork boots, which would keep the dirt out of the front fork because the seals back then weren't very good. And then we made a same kind of a boot for the rear shock. And eventually started making rubber injection molded grips. And then we added in some BMX products. We made BMX pad sets and BMX plates and BMX shin guards and elbow guards. And and then, you know, I bought my partner out and, and that, that took several years and there wasn't a lot of extra cash, you know, cuz. Everything just seemed to go to him to, to buy him out. And, and eventually we got that all done. And, and then we were able to really kind of move forward more dramatically because we had, you know, some money to work with. [00:11:34] Craig Dalton: Right, Right, right. Yeah, I, I think back across that period that you're describing, and I do remember those original lizard skin chain guards, but I probably, I remember more. Like the arrival of color, cuz back in the early nineties, certainly on the mountain bike scene, that was the heyday of anize parts and finding any, any way to make your bike a little bit more colorful and have a little flare to it. [00:11:59] Brian Fruit: Oh, people were putting on Coca Cranks and Cook Brothers and, and you know, Paul components and everything was purple and red and yellow and, you know, green and yeah, you could buy a, a Chris King headset and it was all Rastafari and [00:12:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was, it was like there was so much innovation going on back then in the world of mountain bikes, and I mean, I think that's what I've enjoyed about the last several years in the gravel bike world is you just see that kind of innovation. No one knows exactly what's right. The bike designers have been given a lot of freedom to design bikes that, you know, range from a road plus bike to a full on bike packing bike, and they're all in this, this quote unquote new genre of gravel cycling. [00:12:49] Brian Fruit: It is fun. I rode a friend of mine's you know, bike packing bike just earlier this week, and. It was super fun, you know, it just had a, a cool geometry to it. And, and he had, he had outfitted mountain bike breaks onto his, you know, drop bar controls, and it had some significant breaks. You know, he's a bike store guy and he figured out how to do it. It was awesome. [00:13:16] Craig Dalton: at what year did you sort of transition your business partner out and start to think really like what new products could you innovate? [00:13:24] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so I bought him out in 2001 you know, early part of 2001. And you know, we, the philosophy then was like, turn over every rock just. If nothing else to see what was under underneath. And you know, we bought different equipment to do our manufacturing with. We, we just really tightened up to try to make everything more frankly more profitable and more efficient. [00:13:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I meant to ask earlier, did you, at what point did you bring manufacturing in-house and what does that look like from an equipment perspective? [00:13:59] Brian Fruit: So we were making these little neoprine and Velcro accessories in the United States from day one and, and still do 30 years later. So what it takes is, I mean, we did it differently. You know, in the old days, the equipment we used wasn't very efficient. We've got. Good stuff now. And so it's a dye press with a still rule dye and then that allows you to cut the fabric out in these perfect shapes. And anybody that's working on the dye press the first day, you know, you have to make sure and tell 'em, you know, if, if you're dropping the dye or if the dye is slipping outta your hands, just let it hit the ground. Like don't try to catch it, you know, cuz it's [00:14:45] Craig Dalton: Sharp all over. Yep. [00:14:47] Brian Fruit: we can, we can fix the, we can fix the dye. It's [00:14:50] Craig Dalton: And then after you, after you're dye cutting the neo printer, are you then going into a sewing process? [00:14:57] Brian Fruit: We have really nice commercial sewing machines. We use a zigzag stitch on it and we sew that in-house with different sizes of Velcro on each side. And then kind of do some trimming to make it look. And then we package it up all, you know, done in the us. So, you know, that was a good thing and we were able to make a super high quality product and, and we sold a lot of those. Eventually a lot of the brands started adding some type of a. Chain protector or you know, chain stay guard to the bikes and it, and definitely impacted our sales. But we added these other products, you know, injection molded grips, and eventually we created a great relationship with odi where they made a. a significant line of lock on grips for us under their, under their patent and technology, but sold by us, under our name and, and to our customers. [00:15:53] Craig Dalton: With ODI manufacturing in the US as well. [00:15:56] Brian Fruit: That's correct. Yep. They're out in California actually, so, you know, it's like, double hard in the United States and California , but great product and they, they have great tooling and they could make these grips just so crisp and clean and, and the technology they have just, and still have is, is second to none. So we teamed up with them on, on lock, on grips. And then eventually we really wanted to come up with a lightweight mountain by grip that was just different. And so we checked into another industry and we made some appointments and we started visiting factories, hoping to get this lightweight grip you know, maybe for cross country racing. And, and unfortunately we weren't successful in finding, you know, that. You know, through maybe another industry. But on that trip we figured out that we found a company that could make tape for us. And it was literally my, my general manager, Brad Barker. And he and I were on this trip together, and as we were about to walk out the, the the building, the business, he kind of turned around and asked them. It was like, Hey, could you guys make tape for. And they're like, Oh yeah, we could totally do that. He says, Great. I'll, I'll, I'll be in touch. So, you know, he says, Brian, I really wanna try this. I really wanna, you know, sink my teeth into it. So, you know, he was working with the factory back and forth about nine months and making samples for handlebar tape for road bikes. The first sample was like, what, 12 or 18 inches long? And we're like, Well, this is not gonna work. And then the next sample was, you know, really long, but the product didn't stretch. Well, that's not gonna work. And so we went through rendition, after rendition after rendition, frankly, not knowing how to create the proper tech kit to speed the process along, but just trial and error and. [00:18:01] Craig Dalton: was there something in the road bike market that you felt was missing like some type of performance out of the grip that you guys saw as an opportunity? [00:18:09] Brian Fruit: Yeah, that's a great a great question. We, we did feel like that there could be something different. Most of the tape that was available at that time was the synthetic cork and you know, gets dirty and it kind of slippery and it wasn't really any. as to it or any technical, anything. So when we came out with ours, it was completely different and had a much different texture and feel. It, it actually felt softer even though it was the same thickness and way more grippy and it was cleanable. You could just take a little alcohol and a, and a clean, you know, white rag or something. You could clean it right up and, and it wasn't stained and dirty. So we ended up finding a product that was gonna work and we were really proud of, of the product we had designed. And then the factory told us how much it was gonna cost and it was like one of those, you know, stressful moments and we're like, Ugh, how's this ever gonna work? Cuz Bar Tape at that time sold for 15 to $20 for, you know, the common synthetic co. [00:19:18] Craig Dalton: Yep. [00:19:19] Brian Fruit: Ours was gonna be $35. . And so we're just like, Oh, this is gonna be tough. But everybody that touched our tape loved it. And so we're like, Well, we just gotta get people to touch it, you know? Cuz once they do, they'll love it. And that's the phrase, Touch it, feel it, love it came from [00:19:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I, you know, it's so, it is poignant when you put your hands on some lizard skin tape, it feels different. You know, I'm riding it on my, my bike right now and. Everything you've just described is what I've felt about it, like it feels When I'm barehanded I often ride barehanded and I, I feel much more connected to the grip because of the sort of, I dunno, stickiness is the right word, but this kind of sticky quality that I feel when riding it that's quite different than court grip. [00:20:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, it's, it's grippy, you know, and it's from this patented, you know, technology and material that that our partner supplier created in tandem with us. And and it's just been absolutely wonderful. [00:20:28] Craig Dalton: So it's, so, it's so interesting to me as, Sorry to interrupt Brian. Just as like a business journey, you sort of realize, hey, we've got something unique here, but I can't tell you about it. You've gotta feel it and touch it to believe and see. I can imagine, like in the bike industry, that's a challenge, right? To kind of just translate that into the hands of enough people to develop a passionate following to say, I'm willing to pay this premium price for this performance now that I know about it. [00:20:59] Brian Fruit: So I happened to be on a, a family trip, and again, I love bike stores, right? So we have a distributor in Guatemala that, that was selling our product and they had a bike store. So I went and visited that store while we were on this family trip. And there was a customer that came in and he had a road bike, I think it was a tri bike actually. And the handlebar tape was all falling off and, and I just happened to hand him my handlebar sample that I had and he just fell in love with it. And he told the, the manager owner of the store there, he's like, I want this. And and we told him kind of what the price was, and that's a lot of money in Guatemala. and he's like, No, no, I want that tape. Like, so give me that tape. And, and that's kind of how it's worked. Like we pay a ton more for our tape. It's not that we make a lot of money on it. We actually have a pretty tight margin on it, but the manufacturing cost is just a lot more because of what the product is and the, the materials that are, that are used. But once you feel it, it's like, . Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna splurge and I'm, I'm, This is what I want. [00:22:12] Craig Dalton: So are you still using the same manufacturing partner [00:22:15] Brian Fruit: We are, Yeah. And they've come up with, you know, new technology and, and you know, improvements to the polymer to make it, you know, even more grippy and even more durable. So it's been nice. You know, we did a complete redesign on the tape a couple years ago, two or three years ago now. And the new tape actually has a pattern on it. And if you looked at that pattern with like a, a jeweler's loop or a magnifying glass, you would see that the pattern is like, It, it's multi depth. So some of the little bumps are really deep, some are less deep, some are really shallow, just to maximize the feel and control on the bike you know, with, with these different dimensions into the pattern. So pretty technical. [00:23:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think as as riders, we benefit from your obsession over this one little part of the bike. Say, how can we make it the best it can be? [00:23:15] Brian Fruit: I mean down that same conversation, and this is not a, This is me telling a bad story about myself. Unfortunately, not a good business story, but our plug that we had was really cool looking and was shiny and, and had the little lizard on it, but it did have a tendency to fall out. You know, if you didn't leave enough tape tucked in. So some people, it worked great and it never fell out, but other people, it fell out. So I wanted to get a new screw in plug and, and unfortunately we allowed ourselves to run out of plugs during that process. And probably lost a million dollars of sales just because we didn't. The actual plug that I wanted and I didn't want to go back to the old plug, cuz in my mind it already moved on to the new plug and the supplier for the new plug was being a Turkey and not making a for us. And, and we had to actually switch, you know, suppliers and, and but honestly now we have an amazing screw and plug which is a super simple thing and like, it shouldn't even be like a big thought, but. It probably cost me a ton of money making that transition, just cuz we didn't, we didn't wanna continue on with the old one and we didn't have our ducks in a row on the new one we thought we did. But but [00:24:32] Craig Dalton: I think anybody who's ever manufactured anything can commiserate with that story, myself included. [00:24:39] Brian Fruit: So, but now we got a great plug and the supplier's good and, and everything's, everything's functioning well. [00:24:46] Craig Dalton: You know, one of the, one of the things when you visit the lizards in skin site as a customer is that the first thing you see is an array of colors. And you're like, Great, if I wanna create some accent color, like you just have so many different unique colors available for the bar tape. But when you select your color and you get into it, you also then realize there's this secondary, probably much more important from a performance perspective, opportunity to choose your thick. Of color. For most riders, you probably buy bar tape and you don't even think about it. I don't know what the average is. Maybe it's a two and a half millimeter, but on your site you've got, I think it's 1.8 millimeter, 2.5, 3.2, and 4.6 millimeter bar tape, which is a pretty wide array. [00:25:35] Brian Fruit: So when we started this journey on making Hbar tape And we really tried to figure out what everybody else was doing and trying to get understanding. So we were out there with a micrometer trying to measure it and, and kind of the normal standard tape out there was about 2.5 millimeters, but nobody ever called that out. There was never any technical data. It was just a box and it. You know, Hbar tape with no detail. So we came out originally with the 2.5, which is still our very best seller and it's kind of the most common that you would see. But we had a request for some thinner tape, and there were some customers that said, Oh man, you know, you need to make it a little thinner. So then we came out with a 1.8 in limited colors. And, and we found that certain people in, in certain, you know, applications really like the thinner product and especially people with a little bit smaller hand because they just couldn't get their hand comfortably around, you know, this big fat bar. Big fat tape. Then we had a lot of people was like, Oh, why don't you make a thicker tape? You know? And I think they were like, Man, if you're gonna make a thinner one, why don't you make a thicker one? So then we came out with a 3.2 and you know, the packaging was bigger. Everything about the, the thing is just bigger. And people loved it. Like, man, it, it quickly became a great seller for us. Not better than the 2.5, but it was better than the one eight in fact. And so we've done real well with the three, two, and it lays down nice. And then we just had certain customers you know, wanting to do gravel rides, you know, cobbles, maybe they just have hands that hurt. You know, they have, could be an injury, just could be the way they are on the bike. But their hands just go numb and get sore. They. They wanted more cued. And so some people would like double wrap their bars. You know, but that, that has some challenges to it. So it came out with this 4.6 and it's a beast. It is a big, old fat role. But super comfortable when you get it on. It is a little harder to lay it down, you know? And. In all honesty, if you're wrapping 2.5, that's pretty easy. 3.2 takes a little more finesse and 4.6, it takes a decent amount of experience to make it lay nice and flat, but. [00:28:07] Craig Dalton: interesting to layer in those op those options for gravel cyclists. Obviously, like on this podcast we've got had lots of discussions around, you know, how do you create suspension? You start with your body, then the tires. Then grip tape's gonna play. Play a role in there. And again, for all the reasons you're just talking about, for some people, they're really taking a lot of abuse in their hands for one reason or another. Maybe they've got an injury and I, I could see having that option available to them, even if it's for a special purpose, a special event, wrapping your bars in a separate way. I remember back in the Perry Ru Bay classic days. When you're talking about people doing double wrap bar tape, everybody was consorting themselves in the prop peloton to find some way to make their bikes more comfortable. For days like Perry rba. [00:28:57] Brian Fruit: Yeah, and there's been a few different products made, you know, like, little gel packs and little foam pieces and stuff to put underneath there, and. And, and they work to some degree, but you know, the gel packs are break or they'll get kind of wiggly and the handlebar tape doesn't work well with it. And by doing this nice 4.6 and the 3.2, like, it just fits. It's just there. It's solid. You don't have to worry about a bump or a weird spot on there. And it, and it's been successful. [00:29:30] Craig Dalton: And as I understand things, you've been also getting feedback from a couple pro tour teams for the bar tape. [00:29:36] Brian Fruit: We were very fortunate to get a pro tour team to use the HA Bar tape many, many years ago. That first team was the con and this was kind of like a Forest Gump moment. But they were using our tape and one of their writers Johnny Hoer. Always being indebted to him. He was leading the polka dot jersey competition, the mountain mountain points in the tour, Frances, and it was a flat part of the beginning of the, of the tour. So ultimately he was doing breakaways and getting these points and on one of those days that he was in a breakaway, you know, getting a, a handful of mountain. A press car bumped him and another rider. And they went off the road and into a Bob wire fence. They hit that fence so hard that it actually pulled the P wood post outta the ground. And as just hardcore professionals, they got back on the bike, all cut up and dazed and, and jerseys and shorts all ripped up from the Bob wire. And, you know, their team gives 'em a push and off they go. You. At the end of the race, you know, Johnny gets off and he had been bandaged by the medical car and you know, they're trying to bandage him as he was riding his bike. So by the time he finished the race, you know, most of the bandages were falling off. It was a mess. And they interviewed him afterward and his attitude was like, this was an accident. I wished it wouldn't happened. This is gonna really mess up my opportunities at the tour, but it could have been worse. Let's move on. The other gentleman, writer that got hit had a very different take. His team was trying to find out who was responsible, who was gonna pay. It was just very bitter and, and interestingly enough, everyone fell in love with Johnny. And they started looking at his bike and once those chain rings he used and what kind of bike it was and what was his saddle and what kind of handlebar tape he used. Oh my goodness. Our handlebar tape started selling like crazy. [00:31:55] Brian: So all the distributors started having a run on the product and they ran out of, you know, lizards, skins, bar tape, and and boom. That was it. That was our four Gump moment. Handlebar tape became the most popular aftermarket tape in the world. And it was because, you know, one guy was was cool, you know, [00:32:17] Craig: And thrown into and thrown into a barb wire fence. I remember those images. [00:32:22] Brian: Oh. But you know, he just handled it right. You know, I think a lot of times in life we all have bad things that happen to us that are out of our control, but it's how we handle those things that kind of impact, you know. How we interact with the rest of the world [00:32:42] Craig: Yeah, as you remind me of that story, I remember very viscerally thinking about, gosh, this is gonna be another Primadonna roadie that has a tantrum. And I remember how you describe like the other team, the other writer. It was just this big to do and you know, who's gonna pay for this and how do we replace how he would've done throughout this tour juxtaposed to how Johnny handled it and how their team handled it. [00:33:10] Brian: Yeah, it was it was, it was pretty crazy. So, taught me, you know, a great lesson, right, of, you know, it's important to manage how we react you know, to, to potentially bad things, you know, happening to. So, you know, how we behave can really, you know, change overall how something goes down. [00:33:34] Craig: Yeah. Such, such an amazing journey and so cool that you've been able to do it using us manufacturing all this time. I love that part of the story. Before I let you go, Brian, I did wanna touch on one other thing because I think it's interesting. I mean, the gravel cyclist should go to your site and check out the different dimensions of bar tape and all those cool colors. You have great product. It definitely delivers that kind of grippiness and unique feel that we were talking about earlier. But I was also bemused to learn that you're also into several different sports, and I think the listeners would kind of dig hearing just a little bit about your journey into those other sports. [00:34:13] Brian: Y. So Hannah Bar tape was, was doing extremely well. And one of the guys from work Brad Barker that helped design the tape. Originally, he loved baseball. He had boys that were playing on baseball teams. Had another friend from college that, that gave me that little postcard for the sale at at Reflex actually. He. He was one of the guys that helped me feed my mountain bike passion. He had three boys that loved baseball and they were all putting this tape on baseball bats, bicycle tape on baseball bats. So it, it, it was like, Huh, is there something there? So we started making two thicknesses of baseball grip. We made a 1.1. Which is kind of the traditional thickness for baseball. And we made a 1.8, which is a little thicker. You know, think of the 3.2 in cycling, that kind of thing. And we put it out there. We won best of show for the first trade show we went to, and, and you know, nothing really happened. But when we sold the stuff into a store, it, it, it did. . So we figured out, it's like, well, we just have to increase the amount of stores. So we eventually got a bunch of stores selling it, and then there was a local probe by the name of John Buck. He connected up with us and wanted to go to a trade show and we said, That'd be great. You can share our booth and you can show your product in our booth and it, and it'll be fun. So we start that and at that show, . He brings his bats and we wrap 'em for him. And the whole time he's like feeling the bat, you know, while talking to customers about his products. And at the end of the show he's like, you know, if you made this thinner, I would use it in the pros and I would get other people to use it in the pros and I think have something. So Brad came back from that show and we talked and he says, this is, this is the convers. and we both looked at each other like 130 years of history with people using like sticky stuff, pine tar on baseball bats. Like, how in the world are we gonna change that tradition? Like, that's never gonna happen. And they were like, Yeah, probably not. And they were like, What? What should we do? And we both agreed it's a pro player, we should probably make it. So we did, we made a, a thinner version, one or a 0.5, really, really. and John started using it. Hunter Penn started using it. Big Poppy started using it like, you know, Miguel Cabret, I mean, just tons of these great players and they were sluggers and and eventually we got invited to go to the Equipment Manager show for Major League Baseball, which then led to us getting a license of Major League Baseball where we became the official bat grip on field license. for Major League Baseball and, and it was amazing and our sales grew, grew, grew, which allowed us to hire more people and get into a bigger, you know, better facility and you know, hire more designers and then continue to make more products and and grow the company. [00:37:33] Craig: Yeah, cuz now you're in baseball, hockey, lacrosse as well as cycling. [00:37:39] Brian: and recently we just added pickle. [00:37:42] Craig: Of course, the rise of pickleball, that is the moment in time we're in [00:37:48] Brian: So it and each of these sports, the product is different. So we're not just repackaging, we're actually redesigning the product each time. So you know how long it needs to be, what's the thickness, what type of a backing do we use? For cycling, we use an EVA backing, but for baseball we use afil. [00:38:09] Craig: Yeah. [00:38:10] Brian: you know, different patterns and the gripping qualities on the patterns are very different. So, we've, we've replicated ourself effectively in all these different sports. [00:38:23] Craig: When you, when you think about the business now, what percentage is cycling versus everything else? [00:38:29] Brian: Wow. I mean, in 2020, you know, there was a surge and cycling was the biggest part of the. 2021, it was still great. 2022. You know, cycling sales have, have slowed a little bit because there's a lot of inventory that's been shipped out there. So baseball is now the biggest part of the, of the business. Cycling is second, and then hockey would be third. [00:38:52] Craig: Gotcha. [00:38:53] Brian: So, [00:38:55] Craig: Yeah, super interesting story. Totally appreciate you sharing the journey with me. I enjoyed the conversation. [00:39:02] Brian: Oh, you bet. It, it's been a lot of fun. You know, I look back I, I wouldn't have wanted to go a different route, you know, I've loved the cycling industry and I actually started lizard scans and then several years later I, I started a bike store and then a couple years later I bought another bike store and, and I still have those bike stores. They're, they're great. I love 'em. And, and it, it just, it feels like walking into the Cheers bar, you know, from, from that sitcom. So when you go in the bike store, that's what it feels like, you know, it's just like, it, it's just, it's another home, right? [00:39:42] Craig: absolutely. Yeah. We all, I I hope that many of the listeners out there have that kind of relationship with their local bike shop, cuz I certainly do in my town. I love going there, I love seeing all the team that works there and, and just saying hi and having that familiar, you know, love of the sport that you can share. [00:40:00] Brian: Yeah, it's just, you know, fun getting to have friends continue to come in and get to see 'em. I mean, it's almost like a little mini fan family reunion, like every day that you go in the store. So [00:40:12] Craig: Yeah, absolutely. Well, have a great weekend, Brian, and we'll talk again soon. [00:40:17] Brian: appreciate it. Take. [00:40:19] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Brian from lizard skin for joining I hope you enjoyed learning a little bit about his journey and are intrigued by some of the other product categories that they've found themselves in over the years. Definitely go check them out@lizardskins.com. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, that bar tape's been, it's been interesting trying out the different diameters. I'm still in the 2.4 camp, But I am curious about that 1.8 thickness bar tape as well. If you're interested in connecting with me, please join the ridership. That's w w w dot the ridership.com. That's a free global cycling community. It's hosted on slack. So it's basically a slack channel that you can communicate with other gravel, cyclists. From all around the world. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated until next time. Here's the finding some dirt under your wheels

This week we sit down with Matt Hawkins, organizer of North Carolina's Croatan Buck Fifty and founder of Ridge Supply. The special origin story of Ridge Supply and ultimately the Croatan Buck Fifty have lead Matt to create an amazing early season event. Episode sponsor: Bike Index  Ridge Supply  Croatan Buck Fifty  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Croatan Buck Fifty [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, we've got Matt Hawkins. Matt is the founder of Ridge supply, as well as the creator of the CRO 10 buck, 50. Oh, super well-regarded gravel race out in North Carolina. I've been wanting to get Matt on the show for a few years after meeting him at sea Otter. And I'm excited to have you get to know the Crow 10 buck 50. I believe there's still some spots available for the 2023 edition. It's one of those early season races. So a great way to get tuned up for a fantastic 2023. Before we jump in. I want to thank this week. Sponsor, bike index. Bike index is a bicycle registry and stolen bike recovery platform. No one likes to think about getting their bikes stolen. I unfortunately have had two stolen over the course One was a BMX bike when I was a kid. And I feel like that scarred me. I've always been super careful about how I lock my bike up, which is probably a good thing, but ultimately, a garage that housed my bikes in San Francisco got broken into and I lost a track mountain bike. Neither one of them were ever recovered. Bike index is really the only game in town that focuses on stolen bike recovery. They've built a platform to blast your bike out to local social media channels. And they can provide you all the best advice on how to increase the chances of success in getting your bicycle recovered it's a nonprofit. All the services are free. All you need to do is get your serial number and add your make model and color to the platform. And there you go. It's like insurance. That didn't cost you anything. Simply visit www.bike index.org and get your bike registered today. With that said let's jump right into my conversation with matt [00:02:10] Craig: Hey, Matt, welcome to the show. [00:02:12] Matt: Hey, Hey Craig, [00:02:14] Craig: I'm excited to get into the Croatan buck. 50. Am I saying it? Correct? [00:02:18] Matt: you are, you are a lot of people say Croatian but 50, but I think they do that just to make me mad. [00:02:24] Craig: Yeah, and we'll get into it. We'll get into it. Cuz I think people are gonna need to get out a map and you're gonna tell us where it is in the country. I, I had to do that myself. I knew it was in North Carolina, but I didn't know exactly where and it's actually pretty interesting part of the state, but we'll table that question for the moment, cuz I was like just starting out by. Just a little bit about your backstory, where you grew up, how you got into riding. And I think we should talk about your company Ridge supply, because I think it will filter into why you created the event and you know, the vibe behind it. [00:02:53] Matt: Sure, [00:02:55] Craig: Yeah. So let's start with that question. [00:02:57] Matt: wanna know? [00:02:58] Craig: Yeah. So, where'd you grow up and when did you start riding and when did you decide, when did you discover drop bar gravel riding. [00:03:04] Matt: Well, I, I my wife and I both are from central Virginia. So up near the Charlottesville area born and raised there. My family's been there a long time, many generations. And I, I grew up in a real rural kind of county, a lot of farming communities there, but we just happen to have a race. That started back when the tour Deon and the tour to Trump rode, they came through our town. And we had a, we had a local race called the tour to Madison, and I did that with a buddy of mine on some, some Huffies. And we started racing and riding when I was really young. I've literally been riding bikes for, for almost 40 years. And yeah, so that's, that's kind of how I started. I, I of course I, I crashed on my first race and and loved it, loved doing it, but I was a swimmer by trade and I swam my whole life and swam through college. So I really picked up cycling after college sort of as my primary. And I've been doing that, you know, every, every chance I get as my soul sport really, since I got outta college, [00:04:18] Craig: Were you, were you more excited about the roadside or did you start off road riding as well back? [00:04:22] Matt: You know, actually I did a whole lot of mountain biking to start and did used to, you know, race 24 hour team races with, with the, with a team and did some road racing and some crit racing gravel obviously didn't exist back then. When I moved here to North Carolina back in oh five. I, I, you know, the first place I went to ride was the Croatan because I could go there at night with lights and be off the road. And it felt like, you know, that's where I could take my mountain bike and I could just go kind of ride. And I didn't really know. CRO, Tan's a pretty big, you know, a surface area and it, it has a lot of roads, but they're not all connected. So a lot of it's kind of sketchy. You're just like, I don't know what's down that road. So we started, you know, exploring a little bit more on road bikes with, you know, 25 sea tires or whatever is probably a bad idea. But we are just seeing, Hey, what's down that road. And I got my first cross bike and started really. Exploring it and doing, doing proper gravel, if you will, kind of before the gravel boom, but more like 2013, something like that. And and yeah, so I was like one of the first people here in our little town to do Strava. And so I made a lot of the segments originally. And and that's kind of how I got into, got into gravel was the Croatan was, was here and then everywhere I've travel. That's the bike. I primarily will take, you know, I ride a rodeo labs trail donkey now, and I'll just everywhere. I'm gonna go. I'll take that. So I can, I can ride road or, or gravel or whatever suits a fancy, [00:06:08] Craig: Yeah, exactly. When you first started on Strava and it probably sounds like the same vintage I did. When you created a segment, you could actually name it, right? Like you could name, you could name the, you name, the climbs, all the climbs. You could put your own names on them. [00:06:22] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. My, my mother-in-law sends me things all the time. Bless her heart. If she's listening, I love her to death, but she'll just send like a text message with some, with some cycling related news article and. If you, if you're like us and you follow cycling, it's things that you've already heard two or three days before, but when they hit the mainstream media and maybe my mother-in-law would see it, I would always be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she sent me this article about Strava, which I'd never heard of before. I think this was 2011. And I kind of clicked on it. I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. And I thought, well, I wonder who's using it around here. and I, I, I downloaded the, it might have been a beta app or something at the time. And, and of course there was no segments anywhere everywhere. I went for the first six months I was telling you gotta try this, you know? And Yeah, I made all, I made all the segments in the beginning which was kind of funny. And tho the GPS on your phone back then was horrible and it, it was all squarely lines looked like spaghetti everywhere. And so, yeah, Stravos come a long way with better head units and yeah. You know, all that stuff. [00:07:28] Craig: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. So it sounds like the Croton is, is actually rideable from where you live right now. Is that [00:07:34] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So we are, we are surrounded by it's 200 miles a road gravel road. And it's right here. It's five, five miles from where I'm sitting right now, so I can ride over there linked together all I can handle and, and come back pretty and it's open, you know, year round. There's no closures. It's they're public roads. [00:07:57] Craig: And to position it. So it's in North Carolina, but very close to the coast is what I saw. [00:08:01] Matt: Yes. Yeah. So we're, we're in Eastern North Carolina. It's totally flat. There's zero elevation. And the Croatan is what's called a pacoin. So, pacoin is like an elevated section of low lands. So there's a lot of water in. In the Croatan and it has nowhere to go because there's no elevation and there's really no drainage. So what they did was back in the sixties They dug canals to create the roads. So they would go in there, they would scoop out, you know, along the left and the right side, create these canals for drainage and that, and they'd put the earth in the middle and then they'd elevate that section for the roads. And so a lot of what we're riding on is you know, as gravel roads that were built in a swamp essentially. So, that. It's pretty cool. Like when I first started going in there and riding, I was a little bit like, because you, you can be like 20 miles from nothing, you know, which it's really hard to say that, especially over on the east coast, you know, if you're in Montana or something. Sure. You could maybe, but like out here, man, you can't be that far from civilization. And we have this beautiful, you know, national forest that is like kind of weirdly isolated We can, we have it right here in our backyard, which is, which is great. So this is a [00:09:24] Craig: Yeah, isn't [00:09:25] Matt: to start a start a bike race. [00:09:27] Craig: Isn't that one of the, that's just one of those amazing things about having a gravel bike. You can just sort of explore and get into these pockets of wilderness. And in, in this case, pretty large pocket considering where you are now in, in the, in the four, is there, what's the canopy, like, are there large trees in there? Are we looking at kind of [00:09:45] Matt: Yeah. So Eastern North Carolina is filled with pine. And a lot of it is plantation planted pine. So RO you know, long, straight rows of, of pine Warehouser and places like that own. Ridiculous amount of land down here with just pine trees and the Croatan is essentially mostly that except for there are maybe six pretty big lakes that are in the Croatan. And then there's a lot of, you know, tributary, swamp creeks that are coming in and out of that, when we. A lot of rain here, which, which is pretty often it's heading towards the coast, which isn't that far away. It's just that we, we tend to we te we tend to fill the sound is right here, where we're at. So we have the sound and the ocean in a barrier island. That's like 25 miles long. So, it's all connected. And you know, it's three miles off the beach basically is where the, where the place starts. [00:10:48] Craig: Got it. And are there other kind of offroad recreators in there? Are there, you know, jeepers and four wheelers and [00:10:55] Matt: Some, some of that, mostly it's hunters in the, in hunting season. And other than that, honestly, it's, it's pretty much just for us. There, none of the roads really connect to each other. So we, we get to use them. A lot of days when I go out there, man, it's like, I can't believe, you know, just it's like, it's just, it's all. It's just you. And that's, that's, that's a blessing for sure. It also means that the roads aren't maintained as well as they could be. And like we had the, we had hurricane Florence sorry, if you hear that helicopter, just the sound of freedom here. We got the Marine Corps here. So, the hurricane Florence in 2018, which. Yesterday 2018. I mean, we just got devastated and we still haven't had the roads fixed since then. So that's been four years. You, you just can only imagine the amount of potholes and damage and stuff that's there, but that's what makes our race a little interesting too, is that you never know what the roads are gonna be like [00:11:56] Craig: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:11:57] Matt: the new change. They're like a lot. [00:11:59] Craig: before we get into the race itself, let's talk a little bit about Ridge supply and what, what led to you founding the company and the vision? Cause I've when I heard the story, I found it super interesting and frankly made me want to just jump on the website and order some socks. [00:12:13] Matt: I appreciate that. I, I need that. I need that. Yeah. If, if, for folks who don't know, I, you know, I own and operate Ridge supply, which is a which is a cycling apparel. Running apparel brand. I'm a one man show, so I I've got no employees. I've been doing it seven years and it's an online, only business. We, we, we primarily sell direct. So you know, the pretty much the only place you can get our product is, is at our our website. And I, I, I ship everything myself. I started doing. Back in 2015 and I didn't know what I was doing. I, I, I knew that I had I had a pretty good job at the time. And I, the, the, the quick story is I, I got I got run over by a pickup truck while I was riding my bike. And it was a hit and run and I was sort of very, very fortunate to be alive and. Acutely aware of that in the hospital that a lot of folks wanted to know if I was gonna keep riding my bike. And I, I immediately that I had to resolve that was just like, of course I was, I wasn't, it was never like, I'm scared of riding on the road. I, I certainly was aware of the danger prior to this happening. And I knew that that day I was wearing all black. and that's kind of the easy color to find in cycling apparel. Everybody makes black apparel. And I knew that if I was gonna continue to do it, I wanted to try to figure out how to do it safer. And so while I was laid up with a broken pelvis, I started doing some research and I put two sort of premises together. One was that Blocked color was more visible than solid color. And what that means is if you have the brightest, you know, pink or orange, that neon pink or orange, and we, we love it in our products. If you put it by itself and you stick it down the road like you would see from a car, you might, you might not know what that is. It, it, it looks like. anything could look like a road sign. It could look like whatever. It could just be a bright thing that you're not quite identifying yet, but when you put blocked color together like a dark color, a light color and a bright color, it catches the eye in a way that makes it stand out. It's not necessarily as. As the solid bright color, but it's more eye-catching. So that was one premise and was sort of a scientific premise there. And the other was bio motion mechanics. And what that means is that the human, the human brain recognizes another human's movement. And when that, that happens, that that brain will then acknowledge that that's a human and treat it like a. and I think what happens in cycling, the phenomenon that we all experience when we're riding is we're not treated like humans at all. And it isn't because people are driving around saying, you know, oh, these Kirsty cyclists, you know, it's actually that when they're driving, they're just not acknowledging that, that thing that they see is. Another person. It's, it's just an object. It's not, it's not dangerous. But when you think that that's a person, you notice it's a person, you will, then you don't wanna run somebody over. You know, that's not what anybody's trying to do. Then you will start acknowledging that that's person treat 'em like a person. So I took those two premises together and I said, well, I knew defeat is here in North Carolina. I had been to visit. and I was kind of their neon poster child after my accident. And I realized like I could make my own sock. All I had to do was make 72 pair and. I took the most trite design. If you, if you're seeing this on YouTube or something, it's right behind me. But I took the blue Ridge mountains that I grew up with in central Virginia. Everything is blue Ridge, blue Ridge, blue Ridge. It's the most trite non-original thing I could have come up with, but I'd never seen it in a sock. And so I took that design and a contour line also was something I had never seen. I only has it really seen straight. They're easier to knit straight. Or vertical line. So I took that contour line. I made this five color sock and that was my idea was like, if I make a bright eyecatching multicolor sock and it's moving all the time there, you get your bio motion, you get your most visible. And and yeah, so that's what I did. I mean, I. I, I did that in 2015. I, I had no idea what I was doing. I thought, man, if I could just sell these 144 pair that I ended up buying the first time I maybe I could do a sock of the month club or something. I no idea how to ship them nothing. And I made a phone call to a buddy who owns a bike shop. And he was like, oh, this is great. You know, I'll buy six pair. And I called another buddy who owns a bike shop. And he was like, oh, I'll order 18. And I was like, oh my gosh, whoa, I've sold 23 pair. What am I gonna do? You know how I was just panicked. And so I, I, I really worked hard for like a week and I like created a website and did got the shipping integrated and I did all these. Back in 2015, these tools were just becoming available to people like me, who really didn't know what they were doing, but pretty dangerous on a computer, but like, I can't do code, you know, and I could do all these things, like sort of cookie cutter and just like work hard at it and do it. And so that's, that's how I was, it was just dangerous enough to, to get 'em sold. And then I sold them within two weeks and then I was like, well, I'll just take that. And I'll reinvest it in a new, new color and I just keep flipping it. And that's how my business started in 2015. And I literally never put another dime into it. I bet I was able to do that for a while, while still having a regular job. And then yes, slowly but surely it's grown to the point. , you know, I think a lot of people think Ridge supply is a lot bigger than it is. But you gotta sell a lot of $17 socks to make a living. And I'm fortunate to sell a lot of socks. So, we that's, that's what I do, which is kind of, kind of crazy when people ask me, like, what do you do? I'm like, I sell socks and they're like, well, what do you do for a living? I'm like, I sell a lot of socks. I don't know. I mean, that's the deal. [00:18:43] Craig: I, I love that Matt. And for the listener, like I'll put a, a, a link to Ridge supply, so you can check out the color ways and whatnot. And I think it's the type of design that once you see it, as you said, you've, you've iterated on the color ways. Numbers and numbers and numbers of times now. And there's lots of different options there, but the core elements are generally the same, that skyline design that you've talked about early on from the blue Ridge mountains. So it's super cool and visual. And I think I also heard you mention to others that, you know, you, you do find that people talk about their socks, which I think is, is interesting. And you know, in probably a great way that has, has helped the company. [00:19:20] Matt: Yeah. A AB I mean, absolutely. I had no idea. The. The a community nature that was being created. And then the, the virals, not the right word, the personal connection that the Sox would make with other people out in the world. Like I'm always blown away at the number of new customers that rich supply gets every month that I'm not, I'm not advertising to get them. They're they're coming through grassroots. You know, people on a group ride, people, seeing something on Instagram, people telling somebody else about 'em and that excitement around it is something that is, is the blessing of why this is actually a business. And isn't, wasn't just something I did. And , and, and it, and I can't take credit for it because a lot of that is timing. And the MIS the, the mistakes or risks that were taken early on with the business that worked at the time when nobody else was really doing that now in revisionist history, it looks like, wow, you really knew, I didn't know what I was doing, you know, like, so, I, I can't sit back now and be like, yeah, look at this. I, I, I still just in awe and my wife and I will look at each other sometimes and be like, what is going on? Like, we , we both had, you know, Big time jobs and corporate blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden it's like, we're sell socks for a living. And, and, you know, it's bizarre. It's a bizarre life, but I think I got the best job in the world for me, you know? So [00:20:59] Craig: Yeah, that's amazing. And I, I do, I mean, I think as a consumer, we all appreciate like the transparency and authenticity of business owners. Like now that I've heard the story, the origin story about why the SOC design is the way it is. You better believe if anybody asks me about those socks or says like, oh, those are kind of cool. I'm gonna tell them, oh, they were designed for increased visibility. And like, there's no doubt in my mind that customers relay that story if they hear about it. Because it's just, so it's just an interesting talking point. Like most socks are boring. These aren't. [00:21:33] Matt: and I appreciate that. And you know, you, can't not, everybody can listen to a 45 minute podcast to let me get long winded about telling that story either. So it's, it's hard to, it's hard to get that message out there. I assume everybody knows it, but of course they don't. And so I'm, I'm happy that you've. You know, you, you brought it up because it's, it is a, it's not marketing. I it's the last thing from marketing, it's really the, kind of the core design philosophy of what I do. It, it, isn't just, it's either mountain related, you know? So like the names, the style, the design is kind of related. It also has that five color. I try to do five sometimes I can't, but. And once I that's my brand identity, I don't have a logo that people recognize. I don't have a text that somebody's like, oh yeah, it's it's that. And when I started that in 2015, nobody was doing that. And so when you see my socks in a picture, they really stand out because of that branding. And that I've I've I like to say like, You know, like a dog, like peed around my tree. So many times, like you come near that tree, you're like, oh, that's where it supplies tree. Whoa. You know? And it's because that's what , that's what that did. And I didn't know that's what was gonna happen. But now I, I, it's funny, like I have like, Social media watchdogs out there. You know, if somebody does anything with five colors or contour lines, I get these text messages. Like they're stealing from you. You know, it's, it's not that there's only so much you can do on a sock. That's not really what happens, but that's, what's made it unique. Is it it, you can tell what it is without seeing the words or some, you know, a swoosh logo or. [00:23:17] Craig: Yeah. I love it. I love it. I'm in the listener. Well knows that I can geek out about the basic business behind any enterprise. Cause I love it. I'm fascinated by it, but I definitely wanted to transition to the Caran buck 50. And learn, learn more about the event. So what, when did you get the idea for it and what was the inspiration? Why, you know, it's a lot of work to put on an event as you can attest. And why did you tackle that? [00:23:42] Matt: Well, I mean, ignorance is is a great motivator to do something ridiculous because I had no idea. I had never, I don't think I'd ever volunteered for a race and nor had I ever put one on I'd done a lot of them. And I just knew that I knew that our area was kind of unique. Gravel was something that it hadn't quite taken off. There weren't a lot of big events outside of, you know, like Mid-South and dirty Kansas at the time. And there was really no, and there's there still aren't many events on the east coast, outside of like Vermont. And so I knew we had the Crow team here and I. The better part of six months or so, just kind of riding the Croatan, giving a feel for it and, and trying to come up with something that could work. The, the one challenge we have most, because we're on the coast, you can't go in our case south, because we're south facing, which is kind of strange. They don't, we're like long island, you know, when you go south, you go into the water. So. We don't have options for loops. You kind of go into the Croatan and the way that it's structured with its lakes and its swamps and stuff, some of the roads just don't go anywhere. And they're really kind of like fire access. So we couldn't do like a, a traditional loop, like you would normally like almost every course is. So we had to do an out and back. That's interesting. Nobody really does that. And I wasn't sure people are gonna like that. And so I kind of wrote it enough. So I was like, you know what, I don't hate this. I could do this, you know, and enjoy it. And it is different an out and back's always different. It's going another direction, a different view, different thing, different turns. So, but yeah, in 2017, I, I did that. I, I had a. A buddy at the time that was helping me kind of promote it. And we got it started. And, and we had 250 people, I think in 2018 come and do it. And I like I've told some other folks too, like I had no idea what I was doing and a lot of bike races, you know, you just kind of show up, they start you and then you finish. Sometimes there's timing. Sometimes there's not. If you're not on the podium, you just kind of, you know what I mean? Like there's nobody there to finish. I finished races before here, locally, where I got back to the finish line and there was literally nothing there, you know, I've won event like that where I'm like, there's no finish line. There's nobody to, to document it. You just ride across and you're like, I won. You don't win anything. You're just the first person to finish. So with this race, We just winged it that first year it was a success. People loved it. We do start and stop at the Speedway here, which is, which is one of our crown jewels. We, we have a a, a NASCAR short track. If you don't know what that is, it's essentially like, you know, less than a half mile track. And it is. they call it the nicest one in the country. And the reason that is, is it's built like a, like a Speedway where it's got, it's got like eight or nine bars. It has grandstands, it has towers. It has a restaurant in the middle. It's got a garage. It's I mean, it's, it's amazing, but we, we are able to use it for our start and our finish and it, and it provides this ambiance about. The start and finish in a way that is real communal and has the right vibe. And it's right beside the Croatan so short, little, little paved section to get out there and then you're in the woods. And just that combo together was a good, it just worked in 2018. [00:27:33] Craig: Yeah. And was it 150 mile race? Or did you have other [00:27:37] Matt: Yeah, no. So we have three. We call it the buck 50, because there's 150 mile race. We have a race called the buck, which is a hundred miles and we have a race called the 50. That is 50 miles. W the first year we basically had a course that was almost 50 miles and we did one lap, two laps or three laps. It's a mass start. Everybody started at the same exact time. And we had. We had sections of the course. It changes every year, the course changes a little bit every year, but that first year we had this section of road that was really primitive and abandoned road that was, had a lot of potholes, a lot of mudhole and we called it Savage road. And that was a section that was about three miles long that really broke the race up. It was the, it was the animated piece. And that was a big hit. We were able to use that the first two years. And since then we haven't been able to use it, which is fine. And we've changed the course a little bit, but now, now we have three races. The 50 uses that same out and back to start. And then the hundred uses a 60 mile loop and then a 40 mile loop. And then the buck 50 uses 2 75 mile loops. So what's kind of nice is we have all these people out there in the course, and it kind of is three different courses, but there's a big section of the course where it's it's everyone uses it. So unlike a lot of races, we have a lot of back and forth traffic. So, out there on the course, you will find other riders heading the other direction that are 40 miles. You know, away from you in the race. But the way that we stagger it and that provides a lot of, we found that that provides a lot of positive comradery. Yeah. There's that small group in the front, that's drilling it for the race lead and they're not waving it people. But everyone else seems to be really encouraging of the other groups. And that community aspect, I think, is something unique about our race that people really like. [00:29:49] Craig: Yeah, that sounds super interesting. And I agree. I mean, there's, it's very few races where you double back on yourself and see other people. And it, it's fascinating as, you know, as a mid packer to see. to get an opportunity to see the front front leaders of the men's and women's race go by. That's a lot of fun and inspiring to see. [00:30:06] Matt: Yeah. And I think makes people feel a little bit safer too, you know, if you had a catastrophic situation you're, you're not alone. The Croatan is very remote and you could be. You wouldn't be out there by yourself forever, but the way our race is set up, you know, you're not alone very long. And I think people, like, I think people like that. [00:30:26] Craig: For sure. You talked a little bit about how the terrain was laid out early on in this conversation. What type of equipment do you see people riding? What kind of tires, et C. [00:30:36] Matt: Yeah. You know, the more I've tr traveled around and don't know other races and stuff, I, people that have never done this race, they actually, they just don't believe that the terrain, this terrain exists, you know, and they've never really ridden terrain like this because it is it's perfectly flat and what that means for you is that you never are able to coast or, you know, there's no climb, so there's no dissent and you never stop peddling. And in the course of a 50 mile, even just a 50 mile ride, it can really drain you when you do 150. It is a, it is a serious effort. So as far as gearing and stuff is concerned, you could literally ride. , you know, you could ride road gearing here and be fine. But a lot of folks, you know, this is a great single speed course, because if you get the right gear, that's, you know, the right cadence you want and can get you at the speed you wanna go, you don't need to change your gear. So it's a perfect course for just grinding out on a single speed tires. You know, we've got really good surface area or surface that is not like sharp rocket rocks at. It can be a little Sandy at times. So a little bit of volume is important, but I mean, the race has been one on like 30 fives and 30 twos. So I wouldn't ride it on a 32 myself. I'd rather I ride like a 38. And I feel fine on that, but I ride a slick out here all year round. So even, even if it's wet a slick is fine. Our corners. Our corners are a little Sandy. So tires tend to not do anything for you. You just gotta take 'em a little gingerly. If you go in a corner too hot, you're just gonna eat it. But we don't have many corners, you know, so a lot of the roads are straight and you're what you really have to do is find your line. That's the other thing you can't ever explain to somebody until they come and do it? We have. We we, you call 'em potholes, but like we have small indentations, like a pothole in the gravel and they're everywhere. They're everywhere. And so imagine you're in a group of 800 people and you're nine, 10 riders back. You're not gonna see any of that. And all of a sudden, you're just like, bam, you hit the bottom of this pothole with your rim. It becomes this thing where as the course opens up and as people start to spread out, picking your line, it's like a snake, you know, and it just winds around and, and the groups are all doing it. You can be on the left, you can be on the right. If you're in the middle of the road, it is a nightmare because there is just no way that you're not gonna have some catastrophic pothole in your way. It, it's a weird kind of way to race your bike. But one really cool thing is like, you'll never calm down and just like tune out. You have to be on the Razor's edge mentally the whole time. And I think that's actually a great way to grab a race, you know? Cause if you're just like, you always talk about people, like I just had to grind through this thing, which is so boring. Like this course is not. It's flat and it's an out and back, and that sounds boring to people until they do it. But then when they do it, you throw in these potholes it's, there's something special about it. [00:34:03] Craig: A heck of a lot of peddling and a heck of a lot of attention required. It sounds like [00:34:08] Matt: Yes. [00:34:09] Craig: when you think about the event, were you looking to put something on the calendar that attracted sort of a highly competitive crowd or what was, what was kind of the vibe and intention of the, the race design in your mind? [00:34:20] Matt: Yeah. You know, I, I set out to create something that could be the first gravel race you've ever done in the 50. That is like, You know, like, even if you're going pretty slow, you can complete that course in four hours. And I felt like four hours is like, you know, if, if you're really riding and training, some, you can do that. Even if you never train more than two, you could still pull out a four hour effort. The buck 50. Was always gonna be a challenge just from a time perspective, because like even the fastest people who are blazing this course at like 21 and a half miles an hour, they're still in the seven hour range. And that is that's goes all the way up to 12, you know, depending on who who's doing it. What I tried to do was make a race. and this is the magic of the Croatan being flat. If you're the, if you're the, the person who just wants to come out and experience it and ride, you can line up against, you know, Ian Boswell, who's gonna go, maybe win it. And you both have. An equally rewarding experience. It isn't that the person in the back is just lollygagging. The course they're gonna have to do something really special for them to complete it, but the people at the front are gonna get this unique experience of a March race that doesn't have crazy elevation. Doesn't have, you know, high altitude doesn't have extreme weather and yet it's. But it's just hard enough for wherever your fitness is at. And I think that's one of the sweet spots and we don't bill it. I know it's called the buck 50, but it, we split it about a third. So we have, you know, a third of the people sign up for the 50, a third of the people sign up for the a hundred and a third of people for the buck 50 and. One of the unique things about our race too, is like, we let you switch the distance up until a month out because people will sign up and then they'll be like, ah, my fitness, isn't what I want it to be. Or they maybe have a great winner and they're like, you know what? I wanna do. I wanna bump up from the a hundred to the 150. So we allow people to do that and change it on their own. And that's, that's been a big, a big blessing because it, it, we were seeing 150 people. Change, which is a nightmare for a race director to have to deal with all that. So we just let him do that one bike edge until January. [00:36:53] Craig: Nice. Yeah. It's interesting that March date on the calendar, I think it's like, it's such a great focal point for your energy. Like through the winter to say, oh, I gotta, I gotta stay fit. Cuz I wanna do something big in March and it just sets the table for a great year on the bike. I think if you're fit at that time. [00:37:10] Matt: Yeah. I think people that we, so registration just opened up yesterday and on, on the 15th of September and it's a long way out, but it really isn't. When you think about your holidays. Your new, year's all these things. And people do use this as their carrot. I know I do. I use it as my, I gotta get on swift. You know, I gotta do another workout, even though I don't ride it. I just know that that's what people do and then they, it's not, you wanna come outta your, come out of your, you know, to start your season at the buck, 50 Andy blazing, but you know that you don't really have to perform at a weird, you. Extreme level, you just have to grind and that's, that's kind of a neat way to start your year too. And I think, I think it's worked for people that really wanna set, you know, set a goal, an early season goal and then pick up their June and, you know, July things later, cuz they built that base. [00:38:08] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like from your description that the, the race track has just created this very important piece of infrastructure. For the overall event, how are you kind of harnessing that? Obviously like a lot of gravel events try to foster a nice after race party or an event or experience for the community. How do you kind of manage that? And, and what should we expect when we show up? [00:38:32] Matt: Yeah. You know, we're, we're, we're super blessed. We we've got all of these things in this background where you're you're you're on this NAS. You know, short track it's paved. It has a pit lane. We, we have the finish line there, right? Where, right where the the vending is and the food and all that stuff. So it's this communal effort once you've, once you either are coming through for a lap, you get to see everybody or at the finish right after you finish you're right there. And it's been an interesting. It's evolved, but it's been an interesting environment because we also have free camping there on site. So basically like you can literally come in there the night before pitch a tent inside of the track, wake up, you're basically at the start finish line and start the races re reminds me a little bit of the, some of the mountain bike events that you get to do or camping's involved. But we, we offer, you know, meal afterwards and beverage, we typically will have like a, you know, a, a beer, a partner that'll that'll have beer. We do like. A, a full catered buffet style meal, which, which is kind of nice because just some, you know, where we are. It's not like we got eight, 900 people. There's not a lot of restaurants and stuff, you know, you can't just like, say, Hey, go get yourself something to eat. We kind of have to provide it. So we do that. And the big thing that because of Ridge supply and because of who I am as a business person, if you will like. I've always made. I've always tried to set out to make this race a value, even though it's not inexpensive race. There's. I feel like there's peer races that are of our size or bigger that are more expensive. And the return that you get from the buck 50, I've always tried to maximize the return and make every decision that we make. I say we, that I make about the race is rider focus. Because I think what happens with race directors and I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone else, I'm saying this happens, happens to me. You get this registration, you sell your registration, which is great. Then you have to provide services with that, with the, that revenue and the amount of services you provide. There's like a minimum and a lot of folks stop there. They're just like, this is all you gotta do. . And what I try to do is give back enough a in services, but also in product, we give away a huge swag package. Nobody does this, but I do it because a that's what I do. I sell stuff, you know? But like this year, when you come and do this race, you're paying for the entry, but you're get, you're gonna get basically a, a, everything that we do is fully custom just for racers too. So it isn't like you can buy this on this, on the website or. Somebody printed a cooi and gave it to you. It's like you get a custom pair of socks. You get a custom race tee that is not like your typical race tee. It's a legit piece of garment. You get a finisher's hat. When you finish, that's specific to your race, you're gonna get a pair of gloves that are custom long fingered, hand up gloves that you're gonna get. You may get some other things and I'm not gonna say out loud what they are. Those things all add up. It's well, over a hundred dollars worth of stuff. You get a meal afterwards, you get beverage afterwards, you get free camping. It isn't about what you get back, but when you do all those things, and then the value of the race experience in itself is what it is. And people do really enjoy doing this event. I hope that they tell other people about it and then they wanna come do it again. Otherwise, you know, it's a giant waste of time. I've found that from, from a race director's standpoint, if, if it stretches me a little bit where I'm just kinda like, oh man, I got, you know, when you have 900 people, every dollar that you spend is a thousand dollars, you know, and those add up very quickly. And there's a lot of times that that feeling that you have, you're like, well, I don't have to do that. They won't, they don't really, you know, you don't really need that. That's almost the, the surefire indication I need to. And I, the one thing we don't do that a lot of big races have, I don't really have a whole lot. I really don't have any corporate P partners. I don't sell sponsorship. Nobody's presenting this. And I like that because it keeps it, the vibe is the right vibe for March. I don't think a March race should feel like the world championships of anything. It's like, bro, you're just coming outta hibernation in the Northeast. This is your first time to see the sunshine and you wanna ride your bike, but you know, you, you don't need all that pressure yet. And so we try to keep it like that. And I think it's translated. I think the, the race track does provide that. And that's kind of what we use it for. It's just a backdrop. We really don't, you know, you do get to ride around it and finish and you come in and out of it to do your pit. But yeah, I'm not sure if I answered that question correctly, but [00:43:35] Craig: You you, you, you did for sure, Matt. No, I love it. And I do think, you know, by my likes again, like it's come to me through a number of different sources that this is a fun event. If you can get it on your calendar and you're close to the east coast where you can get there. So I think you're doing all the right things and I'm, I'm happy to have you on the podcast and just hopefully expose this race to a broader audience. I really love the idea. Encourage encouraging people to travel, to ride gravel in different parts of the country. Cuz as you expressed early on in this conversation, it's such a unique part of our country that has these funny little attributes that you're not gonna experience elsewhere. [00:44:14] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. It, it is it, when you live here, you're kind of like, why would anybody want to come here and ride our little gravel and then you make the bike race, and then everyone's like, It's amazing. And you're like, really? Is it, you know, and, and that's kind of been an eyeopener too, is that you realize that it is unique. The art terrain is unique and I've, I, I spent a lot of time in Vermont. I I spent a lot of time in Colorado, kind of all those kind of areas. I'm like, you can't mimic those things. They're just, they are what they are. And they're amazing. It's just that what we have is just. Squished flat and you can get away from everything in a way that is just kind of bizarre. You know, there's no homes, there's no buildings. There's no nothing. You're just on a gravel road in the middle of a forest, as far as your eyes can see. And that's kind of cool. [00:45:04] Craig: Yeah. And thank you. Thank you for just putting a hand up in creating this. I mean, it, I always like to express that sentiment to advent organizers cuz it's, it's hard, hard work, but I know it's, it's a virtual, it's a love story to your local community in the, the trails that you've explored the last few years. [00:45:22] Matt: I appreciate that, man. Yeah. I mean, I would do it again if I, if I knew, but if I knew it was this hard, I would think really hard about starting it. I'm glad, I'm glad the ignorance is, is prevalent for me. [00:45:35] Craig: it, it totally is. It totally is. I don't think you start a business. If you know everything you're gonna have to go through and you probably don't start an event either if you know everything that's in front of you, but cool. Thanks again, Matt. I really appreciate it. [00:45:48] Matt: Craig. Appreciate it. [00:45:48] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel rod podcast. Big, thanks to Matt for coming on board and talking about his backstory for Ridge supply and that amazing sounding Croatan buck 50 race coming up in early 20, 23. Big thanks to bike index for supporting the show this week. And big thanks to you for listening. I may not say this enough, but I very much appreciate you listening to the show. And making me part of your gravel cycling experience. If you're interested in connecting with me, you can visit the ridership that's www.theridership.com. It's a free global cycling community where you can interact with gravel, cyclists from all over the world. If you're able to support the show, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Or head on over to buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. If you're able to contribute financially. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

This week Randall and Craig open up the floor to questions from The Ridership. Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: In the Dirt 32 [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. I'm going to be joined Really By my co-host randall jacobs for another episode of in the dirt [00:00:34] Craig: randall, how you doing today? [00:00:36] Randall: I'm doing well, Craig, good to see you, bud. [00:00:39] Craig: Yeah. Great to see you too. I mean, I've been looking forward this just a, a little bit of reprieve from everything else that's going on in life. It's just nice to connect with you and just purely have a half hour an hour conversation about bikes. [00:00:51] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. I know you've been going had a lot going on with your mom and so on. So, you know, definitely sending a lot of love and good vibes to you and your family going through some challenging times. [00:01:01] Craig: Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, we it's the conversations we've had on the podcast and certainly within the ridership community, just about the value of this pursuit of gravel cycling and just kinda getting outta your head. I I've always loved it in that, like when you're on a, a gravel trail, particularly a technical gravel trail, like I ride you can't really think about anything else, but what's in front of you. And it's just so, so helpful for me to just sort of think about the bike and performance and riding. Rather than thinking about everything else going on all the time. [00:01:32] Randall: Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can relate. I've been processing some heavy things in my own life these days. And at the same time returning to the bike, I've been doing a lot more walking, hiking trail running lately as well as like canoeing and kayaking the canoes great with the kids. But there's. There's that flow state that you can get into on the bicycle that is, you know, people talk about runners high. I've never really had that. I don't think I can run long enough to get to that head space, but on the bicycle, there's just a place where everything is just in sync and the it's. I just feel very connected to everything, but not overwhelmed by it. If that makes sense. [00:02:13] Craig: yeah. You know, I was up in lake Tahoe last weekend and did a bunch of standup paddle boarding. I got some good recommendations from people on the ridership as to where I should explore to ride. And I had a bike, but honestly I just left it on the patio because I, it was just enjoying the lake so much. And to your point, like with standup paddle boarding, I found, you know, I just have to focus on the balance piece. So I, I, it sort. Took me to that same place. I just got in the rhythm of stroking on either side of the standup paddle board and, and being focused on the physicality of it. And, and the moment that I was experiencing, which, which I also really enjoyed. [00:02:49] Randall: Yeah, standup paddleboards are great. I actually like them. I use them occasionally standing up, but having them as like your own little floating island in the middle of a lake or a pond you know, you can have two adults. I've had, you know, another adult and a, a toddler on one. And so one adult is in the water swimming and the toddler is kind of jumping on and off and, and it's, it's just so much fun. Yeah, [00:03:12] Craig: but you've got, you've got something coming up. That's kind of probably forcing you a little bit to get back on the bike. Right. [00:03:17] Randall: Well, so, well, one I'm wanting to start coordinating more group rides. We've talked about this quite a bit and just life has gotten in the way you know, the logo launch and some things in, in my personal life and so on. So there's that the O positive festival. In Kingston, New York is coming up. That's the seventh through the 9th of October and community member, Joe conk in the ridership. He is the founder of that festival. And once again, we're gonna be coordinating a gravel ride. Together with a road ride and a a mural tour ride, which will be through the, the city of Kingston and is very family friendly. As part of that weekend, I believe it's gonna be on the eighth. So we'll be posting more information about that in the ridership and would love to have people come out and join. [00:04:00] Craig: That's super cool. I remember you talking about the festival last year and some of the riding that you've done with Joe up there. So that sounds awesome. So for anybody on the east coast, that's within range of that, we're able to travel, as Randall said, it'll definitely put some notes out there. Maybe we can talk about it again, more specifically when you lock down the details. [00:04:17] Randall: Yeah, we're, we're finalizing the route right now and we'll create a page for the event. So if you're interested in staying in touch, we'll definitely announce it here on the pod. I might even bring Joe on for a few minutes to share some more details, but the festival itself, it's, it's arts, it's music, it's community, it's great food and just a wonderful vibe right outside the Catskills and the riding out there is great. I've done quite a bit of riding out there with him and others. So if you're in that area, definitely come out and join us. We'd love to see you. The, the event is it'll be, the ride will be you know, we may ask like for a recommended donation, which doesn't have to be provided, and that goes towards the artist community in Kingston. And then, you know, there'll also be an option to get a wristband for the entire festival too. So. So, yeah. And if you wanna be participate in the conversation, definitely join the the Hudson valley channel in the ridership. That's where, where we'll be talking about this [00:05:07] Craig: Cool. I similarly am trying to get my act together. Cause I signed up to support the Marin county bike coalition and the NorCal NACA league for the eventual adventure revival ride. I think it started three, maybe four years ago. They did had one year that was virtual during the pandemic, but I missed last year cause it sold out. So I was sure to get on it this year. And it's a great route starting out of Fairfax, California. So super fun route , very technical it's only 60 miles, but it's got a decent amount of climbing, particularly up the aply named Randall trail. Off of highway one is a, is a grind at the end. And then you're coming across Fairfax BOS Ridge, but it's a lot of fun. And I believe I saw that Rebecca Rush is joining. [00:05:51] Randall: oh, great. [00:05:52] Craig: So that's gonna be cool. She's so nice. Former podcast guest couldn't have been more friendly when I've connected with her and subsequent times when I've ran into her, it's been awesome. So looking forward to seeing her again. [00:06:04] Randall: I got to meet her at a dinner hosted around sea Oder some years back. And yeah, she's, she's a rad woman. And a great rider. Very, very cool. Is it the same route as the original cause I did the original one some years back living in the bay. [00:06:18] Craig: Yeah, I don't, I don't think they've changed anything. I mean, I'll tell you after the 17th, but I I'm pretty sure it's the same route [00:06:24] Randall: Well, if anyone's considering doing this run higher volume tires and have a properly low gear, cuz you will want both and maybe a suspension stem. [00:06:34] Craig: and maybe a suspension for Randall. [00:06:36] Randall: Yeah. And maybe a suspension fork sacrilegious. But yeah. [00:06:39] Craig: No. Yeah, no, it's a great route and, and totally perfect recommendations Randall, cuz it's, it's, it's technical. It'll push your limits. I mean, I loved it. I just thought it was like one of those roots that favored adventure, like the name, the name is perfect, cuz you're just out there on the mountain. They're carving the route through rugged terrain, you know, basic fire roads and just this awesome part of the north side of Marin. [00:07:06] Randall: I mean, it's the location where mountain biking got ITSs start. And frankly, the gravel bikes that we ride are far superior mountain bikes than they were riding back in those days. So [00:07:14] Craig: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think I recently was at the, at the, the museum up in Fairfax, the mountain Mike museum, and looking at a clunker. And I was just [00:07:23] Randall: Mm-hmm [00:07:24] Craig: I can't even imagine with a kickback break, how they even survived going down Mount. [00:07:29] Randall: well, they had to rebuild those hubs pretty much. Every run is my understanding. So. [00:07:34] Craig: he hence the name repack downhill. [00:07:38] Randall: Yeah. I've ridden with a few of the, the OGs of the mountain biking scene and it, it wasn't the good old days. We definitely have it better now speak speaking of which we have a new bike to nerd about. [00:07:49] Craig: Yeah, not may not maybe a bike that I would take on adventure revival per se, but a very interesting bike for people to take a look at it. It's the BMC now, how do we decide that? It would say pronounce it [00:08:02] Randall: CAS say it with confidence. It's gotta be KIS, maybe [00:08:05] Craig: Kay. [00:08:06] Randall: Ks. Yeah. Something like that. [00:08:08] Craig: Super racey bike, actually, what I would've thought that BMC would've introduced to begin with kind of in the vein of the Cervelo ESP Sparrow, this bike looks, I mean, this bike could have been a road bike. When, when you see a picture of it. [00:08:23] Randall: It's stunning. I love they, there's some unique design elements on the top tube that are very BMC. I like how the, you know, the chains, the seat stays are perfectly paralleled with the down tube and it's just a very elegant bike. The, the paint schemes, particularly on that top end model are quite striking and definitely a gravel race bike. And in fact, I would say a dedicated gravel race bike, which is a little bit different than that as Sparrow. [00:08:48] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's seven dedicated 700 C. But it still manages a fairly tight change stay and fairly good tire clearance. I mean, 700 by 45 is nothing to sneeze. [00:09:00] Randall: Yeah, especially in such a, a, you know, a tight change stay. And it's, it's optimized for that. It has 80 milli BB drop, which is to say like the bottom bracket drop relative of relative to the axles. And that's quite a bit, so anyone running longer cranks is. Going to have say like a pedal strike issue. If they try to run smaller tires, which is why I say, like, it's not quite like the Aspero, the Aspero is much more of a one bike. Like you could use it as a dedicated road bike as well. And it would be great for that sounds like bikes like that or ours, or you know, the, the open up that I always call out. So this is. The the bottom bracket drop the fact that it's a, a longer top tube, so longer reach relative to the stack, just make it a bike that is very much optimized for bigger 700 seat tires, shorter stems. And all of this works really well. Well, offroad, but kind of takes away from its versatility as a, as a road bike which [00:09:56] Craig: I also, [00:09:57] Randall: for what it's designed for. [00:09:58] Craig: yeah, I mean, it's very intentional, right. I also saw that they speck like a fairly narrow handle bar on there with a wide flare. So like keeping again, keeping that body tight in that race, race position. Yeah. [00:10:12] Randall: Yeah. Which I, I'm not sure how much I like that. I think it makes a ton of sense on the road. But I, I feel like often, well, we'll, we'll see I think there's, I think there's a place for it. I would probably want if I was gonna go so narrow, I'd probably wanna do a compound flare in order to get even more flare in the drops without having the hoods super kicked out. Because that, you know, that that extra leverage in the drops is, is nice to have, and it's kind of, but, you know, interesting to see some some difference of perspective there, [00:10:43] Craig: Yeah, let me be clear. Like I would be terrified to ride. I think it was a 37 millimeter bar hood to hood. I would be terrified to ride that. I mean, that just seems really tight. I have heard of some of the pros kind of going super narrow and maybe on a, a non-technical course, like a S B T gravel, or if you live in a part of the country where it's, you know, you're just basically on dirt roads that might, that might work. But yeah, for me, I think I'd be terrifi. [00:11:10] Randall: I think that there's a, a place for this. And you, you see it on, on the road. You've seen some road pros go towards more narrow up top and it does improve arrow. And there a lot of gravel races are not that technical. And so that arrow benefit is meaningful. I just think that there's a little bit more evolution to happen in terms of one getting even more arrow on those narrower hoods. So maybe like something to support the forearm a little bit. So you can be grabbing the, the top of the, of the hoods, but, and, and have your your forearms perpendicular the ground at parallel the ground in your upper arm perpendicular. So you really get that arrow benefit, but then, you know, again, compound flare to get that, maintain that extra leverage in the drops when you need it. Nonetheless we're we're getting into deep handlebar nuance here. Let's let's back out and look at the rest of this machine. [00:11:56] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do think it's, it is just sort of interesting as you pointed out, like this is for a very specific rider and it's pretty natural. Companies are gonna continue to evolve around speed and ultra performance for one side of the market, not the side of the market, that's gonna attract me per se, but as more and more dollars going into racing and more and more people are looking for super high performance, like it's natural that bike companies are gonna do this type of thing. [00:12:24] Randall: There's also an element of like, you know, the bike industry likes N plus one. And so this is distinct enough from a, a road bike where you would have your road bike and, and this bike and the type of person who has this bike probably has multiple bikes. I mean, it is a dedicated race bike so that, you know, it makes sense. [00:12:46] Craig: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You pointed out a few other interesting things about the design as well. [00:12:50] Randall: Yeah, so I like, I like how they did the inter I'm not a huge fan of integrated cabling through handlebars and stems. And I like how it seems that they kept the, the cabling external to the handlebar and then ran it underneath that new rock shop. That new shock stop stem. I think they're calling it some something different. They, they built it in using RedShift's suspension, stem tech. And so it stays external until it drops into the upper headset bear. So that could be a lot worse in terms of serviceability and adjustability and so on. The top end model is a one piece HBAR and stem that has fully internal routing looks stunning, looks really, really beautiful but an absolute nightmare to set up and service. And I wouldn't recommend going that route on any sort of bike period, because even a pro rider needs to be able to get their fit adjusted properly. [00:13:45] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you and I share the same opinion on like, on elements of bike design that make it constrained from modification, easy modification. So yeah, I'm I'm with you on that. It absolutely looks gorgeous, but knowing me, like, I think I'd be frustrated at the limitations of it. [00:14:03] Randall: yeah, yeah. But kudos to them on the keeping the, the cabling outside the bars on the Lower end models, which I say lower end, they start at six grand, which is another thing about this bike, which is on trend. Everything is so expensive. It's remarkable. How expensive bikes are these days? [00:14:19] Craig: Yeah, we gotta, we got a question about that in the, in the ridership, right? Just sort of, why are bikes so expensive and it's yeah, I don't know. You know, when you look at a $10,000 bike or $6,000 bike, it's just that's. I mean, that's a hell of a lot of money. Yeah. [00:14:33] Randall: I mean, there's, I think there's a few things that go into that. So this was we, we put out some, you know, we asked the, the ridership community for some questions in comments. So this was Matthew Kramer chiming in, you know, asking about why bikes have gotten so expensive. I think a, a big part of it. I mean, of course there's inflation, right? And one of the major drivers of inflation in recent years are COVID related supply chain constraints. Right. So it's harder to get, it's hard to get parts and it's hard to get complete bikes, which means there's, you know, Up until recently. And there was a flood of, of like stimulus money for example, into the market. So you had all these dollars chasing less available product. And so by companies focused on the higher end, I mean, we did the same thing. We, we, you know, we actually kind of regret having eliminated the mechanical model cuz but it was because we couldn't get parts and we went with all access, which is really great, but puts it at a, a more premium point. But. [00:15:27] Craig: you're layering. You're layering in increased fuel costs for transportation. There's a lot of things that have gone into it. [00:15:34] Randall: Yeah, that is a factor. But I, I don't think that that's a major driver for this. I think it's more well, honestly, a, a significant part of it is people are paying it. Right. And there's some R and D that goes in here, like the, you know, this, some of these bikes that you see coming out. On the really high end, you know, the volumes are not that great. And so that R and D has to be incorporated somewhere and with bike companies focusing on the higher end, cuz that's where the bigger margins and dollars are and riders having limited options in the more affordable end of the market, because that's not where bike companies are focusing. I mean, I think it's, it's kind of like the automotive industry right now where, you know, I bought, I bought a used Prius for like seven grand and I've put a bunch of miles into it and like, Like scrape the bumper and things like that. And I could probably sell it for 11 [00:16:24] Craig: Right. [00:16:25] Randall: like, you, you just see that in a number of different domains. And I think the B the, the bike space is no different. But you do get bikes are improving in incremental ways. But I, I, it has been a pretty radical shift towards the top of the market. It's is hard to find middle end products that is frankly, just as good in many ways. [00:16:45] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you hope over time. We know historically it does trickle down and there's, I mean, don't get us wrong. I, I think there's a lot of good entry level bikes out there. It's just getting your hands on one and finding one today is a challenge. [00:16:59] Randall: When supply chains go from 30 to 60 day lead times to, you know, at one point you know, there were like, you have very limited options for your levers and, and Dils and so on. Right. We have a duopoly in our industry, you know, and can't be is now, you know, they have a, a good product a competitive product in gravel now with their 13 speed stuff ECAR groups. But you know, that stuff was like one to two years. So when that's the case, you know, if you have a limited buy, where are you gonna focus? You're gonna focus on the higher end and that's that? I think that's part of it too. [00:17:32] Craig: Yeah, that makes sense. And I also remember you mentioning on an earlier podcast, just the amount of commitment level the component manufacturers are expecting from you. So, you know, in order to get a, a seat at the table, maybe you have to buy 50 of something, which as a small builder, you know, that could, that's a, that's a lot of dollars out of pocket. [00:17:50] Randall: Well, and the, the smaller builders generally are like, if you're a domestic builder and you're assembling domestically, it's a different supply. You're paying, you're paying more from say like STR for their domestic distributor versus the, you know, their Taiwan based distributor, just because they're manufacturing a lot of that stuff in Taiwan. But yeah, there were greater constraints. Sometimes you had to put a deposit up front and, you know, you put a deposit on something that is not going to, you're not gonna have for a year and you can't get that deposit back. So the, the risks associated with, you know, well, is something else new gonna come out or what's the market gonna look like in a year? So there's, there's all these you know, it, it really drives home, just re how remarkable it was prior to the pandemic that supply chains worked so well. I mean, truly it is a miracle of a whole lot of very complex decentralized coordination that, you know, any of this works at all. As a supply chain nerd, it's, it's something that, that is, is is not lost on me. And yeah, even the current circumstance, it's still pretty amazing what humans do. [00:18:52] Craig: Yeah. [00:18:53] Randall: All right. So where do we want to go from here? [00:18:55] Craig: Yeah. I mean, one thing I did did I thought was interesting that you pointed out about that BMC is that they do have an integrated suspension stem offering from that they've worked with, it sounds like Redshift on [00:19:05] Randall: Yep. [00:19:06] Craig: yeah. [00:19:07] Randall: I thought that was well executed. One downside I believe is that you can't flip the stem and with that beat bike being relatively long and, and on the lower side, like, you know, it's a race bike you know, it's, again, you have more constrained fitment options. I think the standard shock stop, then you can run in the up upward pointing direction. [00:19:28] Craig: Yeah, you can. I think what's interesting to point out there though. So if this in BMCs designer's mind, this is a flat out thoroughbred race, bike. To have that be an option suggests that designers are coming around to the fact that suspension and suppleness can, can be a performance benefit, like put putting, I mean, you and I have talked about that and obviously I'm sold on it, but it just struck me as like this incredibly arrow stretched out race bike is offering that they must have determined that this is gonna help people win races. [00:20:02] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Fatigue and control it's material. And they've also done a few things with the frame design, which you see on other bikes like the really the, the seat tube towards the bottom gets really narrow. It gets really thin. So it has a lot more flex built in you saw that with bikes, like, you know, the GT grade is, is kind of an extreme example of that, but compliance is, is a great thing. That's the reason why we have one of the reasons we have such wide rims now, too. And what's so great about, you know, high volume, supple tubus tires, you know, it, it all, it all improves speed as a system. [00:20:35] Craig: Yeah. I mentioned this when I had someone from BMC on talking about the S and the S LT. I have a, I have a hard tail BMC, 20 Niner mountain bike from back in the day, like at least a decade ago. And I remember getting on that bike, I came off of a, a similar Niner. Coming to that bike, the back end definitely had a supplement to it. It had that, that exact drop stay design that you're kind of talking about and it really worked. And I was super impressed. I remember when I got on that bike, it just felt so fast and I could control it so well. [00:21:10] Randall: Yeah, well, I had you know, you probably heard the conversation I had on the pod with Craig Cal talking about suspension on road bikes and whether or not you fully agree with that thesis. I think it's, I think it's fairly compelling. Definitely higher volume tires. Like I don't see, even, even in Marin, I would be running minimum 28 mill tub plus tires. Nice low pressures on wide rims. There's no reason to run narrower than that. And you see a lot of the new arrow wheel options for road being built to a width where you can actually get an arrow benefit with those tires, you know, adhering to the rule of one oh 5%, which we had talked about in the wheel episode. So, so yeah, all of these things are, are good developments. [00:21:53] Craig: Yeah. You know, speaking of good developments, I managed actually to hook up with Matt Harvey from Enduro Barings, they did a ride. Out of Fairfax, California, a few weeks back. And I, I joined probably 50 people up there, Yuri, Oswald and other podcast guests was on there. And I think a couple others, I, I think I counted four old podcast guests on that ride, which was great, but a hell of a lot of fun. You had some conversation, some great conversation with him about Enduro Barings, which I hope people will go back in reference. But I think there was a question or a comment about from the ridership about. [00:22:27] Randall: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that we covered in that episode, which I had so much fun with Matt he's just has a wealth of knowledge about the bicycle industry. He's an engineer, an engineering mindset clearly cares a lot about what he does. And you know, talking about the merits or lack thereof of a lot of ceramic bearings and long story short, most ceramic bearings. Rubbish, the ones that are of those that are good, the majority of them require a lot more maintenance to stay. And the, and the benefit is pretty trivial. And then there's this XD 15 bearing that Enduro makes. And I'm sure, you know, others probably have some, some equivalent, but I haven't looked into it, but that I find really interesting. And this is an Aeros, you know, a, I think a French aerospace alloy used for steel alloy used for the races. And then they have these high, very high grade ceramic ball. And because of this particular steel, which is very expensive and they have to buy it they don't, they can't buy it in tube form. They have to, you know, buy it in sheets and, and take it from there, I believe. But because of the unique properties of this material You can get you can use ceramic bearings and if it gets any contamination, essentially the contamination gets like pulverized and kicked out as opposed to pitting and, and starting to, to damage the the metal, because in many cases, the ceramic bearings, that metal is a lot less hard than the bearing itself. And thus, as a consequence, it's the thing to give. We go into a lot more detail in that episode, but yeah, Hans, I'm gonna, I might butcher this. So, bear with me here. Lale I'm guessing L E L L E I L I D he, he brought up this article that James Wong, why admire immensely? He's at cycling tips now wrote about an Enduro bottom bracket with this XD 15 bearing set. And what James said was incredibly low friction feel phenomenal toughness. We did everything we could to kill it, but this thing is simply incredible. And like that is coming from someone like James Wong. It makes me really think, okay, this is something that we're gonna still do a little bit more investigation and Matt's gonna be sending us some data, but we'll probably, we're strongly considering this in incorporating these into a, a higher end version of our, the logos wheels in the. [00:24:36] Craig: Got it. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I had enough smart people tell me that that was the way to go and happy that I've got that in my bottom bracket of my, my unicorn. That I've started riding. [00:24:47] Randall: Oh, it's an XD 15. [00:24:49] Craig: Yeah, I believe so. [00:24:49] Randall: Oh, sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Genuine benefits that you don't have to spend a lot of time servicing. In fact, the service, it should essentially be zero service. That's pretty cool. [00:25:00] Craig: that's what I'm looking for. [00:25:02] Randall: Not cheap though. Not cheap. So everyone else, high quality steel bearings. [00:25:07] Craig: Yeah. And I think Hans was also leading the conversation around just kind of, like flared bars, flat pedals, different kinds of like, you know, We're just out there for enjoying the ride kind of features of a bike or ways in which you could set up a bike. [00:25:22] Randall: Yeah. I mean, I think flare borrows are de rigor. I. Would run flared bars on every drop bar bike, including a pure road performance bike, just with a, maybe a different philosophy on my road bike, I'd go super narrow and get the flares to have more control in the drops for aerodynamics. But flare is here to stay. You see levers being designed with a little bit of flare. So with flare in mind and you know, any sort of, you know, is there an arrow cost? I have no idea. I, I don't think so. As long as the lever is aligned with. The bar behind it, it should sit in its wake, but if, even if there was the control benefits more than outweigh it. [00:25:58] Craig: Yeah. I think that co that the arrow part might come into play on the trend towards super wide bars. And as the, as you know, I've played around with that, I mean, I've got, I think I've. A 48 on one of my bikes and my fitter kind of brought me back to a 44. I, I do miss kind of the offroad control the way to rip the bike around that I got out of the wider bars, but I'm, I'm fairly comfortable at 44 as well. So I, I think I just need to play around with the flare on the bar that I'm running right now. And then it will be the right, right mix for. [00:26:37] Randall: Well, we've talked about in the the, in the ridership that we're thinking about developing a bar that has a compound flare. So you can get, say like eight degrees on the hoods and then 16 to 20 in the drop. So you kind of get the best of both worlds in that you still get that. You know, that roady fit up top, but then the extra control the, the first bar to do this, I believe was the three T a GI. And, and I don't even know if I'm pronouncing that right. We've talked about it on the pod [00:27:02] Craig: Yeah. And I think there was the other one that was like the Whis whiskey components has something similar [00:27:07] Randall: also does a compound. Yeah, I think compound flare makes a ton of sense for, for all of these bikes. [00:27:15] Craig: I wish it wasn't so costly. And you, you didn't have to sort of go all in to create a bar, like cuz you can't 3d print, something like this, right? [00:27:23] Randall: no, but it, it would be easy enough for somebody to create, say a, a high quality aluminum version. It's just another bending process plus testing regime to make sure that it, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't break on you. [00:27:38] Craig: yeah. I'm gonna keep exploring that. I'm I'm not sort of locked and loaded on my handlebar and stem right now. Still just wanted to make sure that the bike was fitting me correctly. And I feel like I've got enough inputs to figure out which way I wanna go with any one of the cockpit components. [00:27:55] Randall: Well, depending on your, what your timeframe is, I may have a prototype for you in time, so let's [00:28:00] Craig: All right. Many, many reasons why you're a good friend Randall and that's just one of 'em [00:28:04] Randall: you know, a guy, you know, a guy who can get you stuff. [00:28:07] Craig: yeah. [00:28:09] Randall: Tom SHEEO was asking about suspension seat posts. What's your take here? [00:28:14] Craig: I I'm a yes. So, I mean, I've been running on the thesis. I have a, a, a P N w coast dropper that has both a drop and a suspension, and I found that it's air tuned. So. Very tuneable very predictable. And I came to the conclusion, like anytime it moved, when my first inclination was like, oh crap, I'm losing performance. Anytime it moved, I wasn't in a fluid pedal stroke. Like I had hit something unexpectedly and it was just saving me. Similarly, although I think it's less active rock shock on the wireless. Their wireless dropper post does have what they call active ride. And I'm probably not tuned correctly on it right now. Cause I don't feel a lot of movement. The big difference between the two is on the PWC PMC. What am I saying here? Pacific PM. Yes. That one moves when you're fully extended. So it doesn't matter whether you're dropped or not. Like it it'll move. If the amount of pressure applied to it from your, your backside is, is forcing it to move. Whereas the rock shock post, it has to be lowered a little bit. So if you're in the full position, you're who locked out. It's only active when you're down a little [00:29:30] Randall: I wonder if that's a design constraint, because meaning something inherent in how they architected it as a dropper post, because from a product standpoint, that's exactly the opposite of what I would want. [00:29:41] Craig: I'm kind of with you and, and I, you know, in talking to rock shock, they did say some of their riders will actually set it up a little bit high so that they can basically constantly ride it with it on. [00:29:53] Randall: Yeah. I think that makes sense, especially adjustability. So to, to answer Tom's question, I think we both agree that suspension has its merits. I would definitely get a dropper first though. I like the best suspension you have is your arms and legs. And the, the float between your body and the bike. That's, that's my strong opinion. And from there you have pneumatic suspension from the tires you can do, you know, a slightly cushier saddle, like, you know, you can have some, some compliance in the frame. There's a whole bunch of things you do before you do a suspension seat, post primary amongst those being a dropper. [00:30:28] Craig: A hundred percent dropper. Number one, upgrade for gravel bikes, period. You'll never go. I don't know if I've ever met anybody who went back. Honestly, once they had a dropper. [00:30:37] Randall: Yeah, I mean, I occasionally talk to people, looking at our bikes who are like, oh, well, you know, can I swap in a rigid post? And I was like, well, if that's what you wanna do, get the, you know, the access wireless droppers are really expensive and they're heavy. But you could have a saddle on one of those and, and, you know, a standard post and swap it in, in and out with a single bolt. So that that's an option. [00:30:58] Craig: I've got that set up now. And I will tell, I will tell you, I will tell our friends in the community if I ever swap it. [00:31:05] Randall: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, [00:31:07] Craig: I don't think, I don't think I will, but [00:31:09] Randall: yeah. I can see on a city bike or like a burning man rig not having a dropper. That's that's about it. that's a whole, that's a whole separate conversation though. [00:31:18] Craig: I will argue with you on the city bike, but anyway, you still wanna drop her on the city bike? [00:31:22] Randall: Let's see. Luke Lopez and Larry Rose were commenting about non-competitive gravel setups, you know, alternative handlebars, flat pedals bags, and fun rides, and so on. Inspired by our friends over at pathless pedals who very much do a lot to create content around the non-competitive side of cycling. So what are your [00:31:41] Craig: Yeah. I mean, I think whether or not you set your bike up in a specific way to go out and have this non-competitive experience, or it's just a mindset. I think we're aligned in that gravel, gravel is for everyone. Right. And whatever your jam is going fast, going slow. Just getting out there is important. I mean, for me, I often change my clothing. [00:32:04] Randall: Mm-hmm [00:32:05] Craig: When I'm out there for just a fun ride, like, like I've got some, some, you know, great baggies that I can wear and different things. And it's definitely a different mindset rolling out the door. Not that I'm out there hammering on a general basis, but it's definitely a different mindset when I'm just out there to stop and smell the roses. [00:32:21] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I appreciate that mindset, but I still vastly prefer Lyra and, and being clipped in and, and, you know, and so on. [00:32:35] Craig: And I've got a, I've got a mountain bike. So like having a flat bar on a gravel bike, like I I've had that set up on an old cross bike. I loved it. Super fun, nimble, but for me, like if I'm gonna go flat bar right now, it's definitely gonna be more on a mountain bike than a, a traditional gravel bike setup. [00:32:52] Randall: But at the same time, you see, I can't recall if it was Luke, but you see folks with like an old Bridgestone mountain bike that they've converted into, you know, a flat bar or a drop bar, gravel bike. And it's, you know, they got a, you know, a handlebar bag on there and it's much more of like a let's go out and get lost and have an adventure, maybe do coffee outside or things like this party pace as you know, as Russ likes to say over. You know, PLP. [00:33:18] Craig: Yeah. If you've got a quiver by all means like, I, I love all bikes and I'm one who appreciates the nuances between them. So, you know, I just don't have a garage big enough for all these things. [00:33:28] Randall: yeah, yeah, no, I, I like I like the, I like being able in the middle of a ride to decide that I feel like throwing down a little bit. Sometimes I get that, that little jolt of energy less. Now that I'm 40, I suppose, but, but still [00:33:41] Craig: I I've seen you have those jolts Randall. I know it's there. [00:33:45] Randall: Let's see, what else? Oh, Matthew Kramer turned me on to something that I thought was really cool in the ridership, which was E 13. Now has a 12 speed, 9 45 cassette that is compatible with standard 12 speed chains. So you don't need that funky flat top chain. That's fair. Still, you know, pretty proprietary to Ram in order to run a tighter cluster. [00:34:07] Craig: So is that, is that 12 speed cassette from shrimp? Something you have to run on their product. [00:34:15] Randall: So the way that SW has set it up, they have migrated all their road. And then now they're dedicated gravel drive trains to this 12 speed flat top chain which is, you know, it, it has a slight benefit in terms of like, You, you get the same cross sectional area of the side plates with a thinner side plate so they can make the chain a little bit thinner. And that helps with the, the already very tight spacing of those cogs and like, but also makes it so that it's something proprietary. And so they've been expanding that I, I suspect that you'll see it on their mountain bike groups soon enough. And, you know, I really like to adopt, you know, proven open standards and non-pro proprietary stuff whenever possible. And the fact is that standard 12 speed works really well and nobody was making a tighter cluster for Eagle, like, you know, or for, for like, you know, a mullet set up where you have. A mountain bike rear derailer, but maybe you want a little bit tighter cluster a little bit tighter cassette for your road or your, your certain gravel applications. [00:35:17] Craig: when you talk about tighter cassette. I remember seeing this pop up and I was like 9 45. Okay. Why do I really care? Talk about the tighter cluster? Cause I think that's an important maybe nuance beyond just like, oh, you got a 45 and a nine. [00:35:30] Randall: Yeah. So the, the biggest knock that people have against one by drive trains is the jumps between cogs. Right. And yeah, I get it. A lot of this can be mitigated by proportional, crank length, and by having a proper bike fit. Because it allows you to spin at a wider range of cadences without, you know, while still maintaining a smooth pedal stroke. And I've, I've been fine with my setups. This 9 45 is it's the same as a, a 10 speed, 1138. Which is, you know, a, a larger road cassette from, from a few years ago. And it just adds a, a taller cog and a bigger cog you know, on that same cassette. And so you get, you know, jumps that I think are probably tight enough for the vast majority of roadies to say like, okay, well, if I had any concerns about jumps, now those are mitigated some. Want it to be like one tooth jumps between cogs and you know, okay. Go ride your road bike. That that's fine. But but yeah, I like, I like to see this. I was actually considering having us develop something if someone else didn't. So I'm glad to see this in the market, I think is a real gap for it. [00:36:35] Craig: Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder why, like SHA doesn't go to a nine cause you think like, I understand why smaller companies kind of pop up and they see an opportunity like this gap, but E thirteen's been doing this kind of thing for a while. [00:36:49] Randall: The nine tooth is so it it's gonna wear all else equal same material and everything it's gonna wear itself and the chain more quickly than a 10 tooth or an 11 tooth. Right. And so the, the entire philosophy of the drivetrain changes with a nine tooth in that. You know, I like to think of the nine tooth as an overdrive gear, plus the jump between the nine and the 11 is significant. Right? So if you're spending a lot of time at the top end of the range, you know, you might not love that, but for me, you pair it with a 42 chain ring and that 42 9. With a, you know, a, a 700 by 28 or 700 by 30 tire is the equivalent of, of a road bike with, you know, 51 11, which is to say, you have plenty of top end. You're not gonna spin out all the time on, on a high speed descent, but it's not all that often that I'm descending at those sorts of speeds. And so that jump from the 11 to the nine is not a problem for me on that end of the cassette. And so in turn, when you have that nine tooth that also informs the chain ring that you pair. Because you, you know, you kind of need to set your chain ring based on how you wanna calibrate that range that the cassette has. So yeah, I'm not surprised that Ram didn't go that didn't go that route. But I do think it makes a ton of sense and I love one by drive trains and I'm all about one bikes as well with one by drive trains. And so the nine two really facilitates that. [00:38:08] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. And Eli Bingham who often chimes in, in the ridership about some real technical stuff and tends to explore a lot of components. He had a kind of note on this didn't. [00:38:18] Randall: Yeah. So, one thing you gotta make sure, because of, and again, this gets into like proprietary standards and so on. So like the free hub, the XD XDR free hub standard that this cassette is compatible with is a proprietary standard that you know, Sam made it. So any. It's really easy for a wheel company to create a wheel with a free hub that, that uses the, you know, XD XDR. But they patented every possible way. They could think of, of attaching a cassette to that so that only they could produce the cassettes. And so E 13 has a came up with a really clever solution, but it requires like a cinch bolt. That clamps around the free hub body. And if that comes loose, it can affect the shifting. So that's kind of like the one issue that these can have. I've never had that issue with E 13 cassettes and I've run them exclusively for several years now. But it's just something to keep in mind. I find that they shift shift really excellent and they're light and they hold up well, cause they're, you know, most of the cogs or steel. [00:39:11] Craig: Right. Yeah, right on. And then I think we should end with, I think, which, which was one of my favorite questions coming out of the ridership from our friend, Silas, pat love is the pursuit of a quiet bike without creeks, an achievable goal or a pipe dream. [00:39:27] Randall: , it depends on what you're starting with. Unfortunately. I think in general I mean, this should AF absolutely be the standard. It, there's no reason why things should be rattling around. And you know, there are ways to get around it. So there, you know, wireless shifting and so on helps. But also like in our case, we run full housing through the frame and then we put it in a, we put it in a foam sleeve and we do that with. Hydraulic hoses too. And every bite company should be doing that because rattles suck bottom bracket Creek, again, like any bottom bracket will Creek if it gets contaminated. But you know, having a bottom bracket set up that aligns and supports the bearings sufficiently. You know, should eliminate the vast majority of those creeks. Yeah, it, this, this should entirely be possible. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bikes that, mm let's just say that this sort of thing was an afterthought. So it may cost, it may cost some money and require some expertise to chase out the, you know, all those creeks. [00:40:25] Craig: I think that's gotta be the worst task as a bike mechanic to be tasked with is when someone comes in and says, my, my bike is creaking. Help me resolve it. [00:40:34] Randall: Yeah. And, and honestly my experience, it it's a special mechanic. Who's who's really good at. I've had bikes that you know, our, our bikes will have a Creek here and there. And we'll say like, you know, bring it to a mechanic, have them take a look and they can't chase it. And I've actually had an instance where I had the bike shipped to me personally, and I chased it, but I chased it in a way that like, you know, it's I'm trying to remember what it was. Oh, it wasn't even a Creek. It was just that. Axis rear derailer the hanger on the was ever so slightly misaligned. And then the axis derailer was harder. When it's miscalibrated it makes a lot of noise on the cassette and that was the noise. So we're like, they were looking at the bottom bracket, they were looking at the seat post. They were looking at the, the headset interface and, and so on. And unless you have that, like the time and that deductive mindset and some experience of like, what things sound like, it's really hard to, to chase. So if you have a mechanic, who's a good chaser. That that's that's someone who really knows their stuff and [00:41:39] Craig: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah, my, my go to, I mean, as a non methodical bad mechanic, definitely like I clean my bike when a Creek arrives and that usually, like, it's say 85% of the time solves the problem. And then if, if I need to go further, it's about. You know, greasing things, making sure, just kind of being a little more I inspect of, of what's going on. I I've generally been pretty lucky that I haven't had creeks that I weren't, that I wasn't clear on how to resolve. [00:42:10] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd like to end with a with something that I'm excited about, which is I haven't nailed it down yet, but I had pinged you about coming out west for a bit. And so once those dates are locked down you know, getting a big group ride in the bay area and potentially in a couple other parts of the us. Something I'm super excited about and to meet some of the riders that are in the forum and that are, are regular listeners and so on. So more on that as we approach. But that would probably be Denver, Boulder, maybe San Diego, and then definitely the bay area. [00:42:40] Craig: That's super exciting. I feel like, you know, before the pandemic we had kicked off some really amazing group rides and [00:42:47] Randall: I miss it. [00:42:48] Craig: you. Yeah. And you and I have been longing for, we've had a lot going on to not kind of be putting that out there ourselves personally, but I think it's, it's a great time to do that and hopefully we can get some knocked out by the end of the year and super excited to see you when you're in the bay area. [00:43:04] Randall: Likewise. It's been too long. [00:43:06] Craig: We're good to catch up. My friend, [00:43:08] Randall: Likewise. All right, my friend. [00:43:09] Craig: take, take care. [00:43:10] Randall: See it. [00:43:11] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of in the dirt. From the gravel ride pod cast How's a bit of a postscript. I did attend the adventure revival ride up in Marine county, out of Fairfax this past weekend. Quite a lovely event, benefiting Nika. The course is amazing and difficult as I imagined and remembered from the last time I did it such a great route put together by the Marine county bike coalition. Super challenging on a gravel bike. I remember thinking about halfway through. Wow. I'm about halfway through feeling quite beat up. And I was riding my unicorn with a front suspension fork on it. I certainly saw a number of riders out there on mountain bikes, which would not have been a bad choice. Anyway, phenomenal event, definitely something to have on your radar, down the line. If you're interested in connecting with myself or Randall, please join the ridership. Simply visit www.theridership.com. That's a free online, global cycling community where you can connect and discuss gravel, cycling with athletes from all over the world. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. And remember, ratings and reviews are always hugely appreciated. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels

In this episode, Craig has Randall back in the guest chair to explore wheel design and development along with the philosophy and design principles behind Lōgōs and its new Omnium wheel collection. From engagement systems and materials to profile design and assembly and everything in between, this episode will leave you with a broad understanding of the wheel landscape and equip you with the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision about your next set of wheels regardless of brand. Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use promo code: thegravelride for a free heart rate monitor) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Logos Components [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. Today on the podcast. I'm welcoming Randall Jacobs to the show for an interview. You may very well know him for his efforts in the, in the dirt episodes, as my technical sidekick, as well as an increasing number of standalone interview episodes that he's handling on behalf of the podcast. I very much appreciate his technical orientation and his passion about the gravel cycling community. But today I wanted to get him on the show to talk about his new efforts with his company logos components. He's introducing three new wheels this month to the gravel cycling community. We wanted to do an episode obviously touching on the new company, but also as something that's standalone for anybody who's interested in upgrading their wheels or purchasing a wheel set for their gravel or mountain bike. I think there's a lot of nuance in the hubs, spokes, and rims that you can learn from this show that you can take across any decision you're making with any of the. RI and wheel manufacturers out there in the world. So with that, before we jump in, I need to thank this week's sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead car two bicycle computer. The hammerhead car two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options, free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsite means you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility, I've talked about how I've been appreciating the hammerhead and how increasingly I've taken the time. To customize each screen. My latest way of geeking out was with rival access componentry. You can actually track the number of shift. In any given ride, obviously not mission critical information, but I just thought it was kind of interesting because as you think about it, uh, you know, you do shift more or less depending on the ation of the terrain out there. I very much appreciate. Hammerheads biweekly software updates. I always look forward to it. Sometimes it's things that are like no brainers. Like they've been improving their points of interest along the way. And other times it's deep tech that, you know, I perhaps don't have a need for today, but I very much appreciate the fact that they update it constantly because it's just something that gives me confidence that I've always got the most up to date. Technology on my bicycle computer recently, I think I mentioned I've been doing some exploring in my hometown. I love and appreciate that return to home feature. I was out on a route, um, actually when I was traveling and I wasn't exactly sure how I was gonna get home and I was pretty beat and I just navigated to return to start. And it gave me the most bike appropriate route home, which was very much appreciated as I was cracking in the heavy Tucson heat. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of a hammerhead Cari, simply visit hammerhead.io right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive limited time offer for a podcast listener. So don't forget to use the promo code, the gravel ride. Add that free heart rate monitor into your cart. And when you purchase the car two, you'll get that heart rate monitor for. Go to hammerhead.io, add both carts and the promo code, the gravel ride with that said, let's jump right into my conversation with Randall. [00:03:56] Craig: Randall welcome to the show. [00:03:58] Randall: Great to be back on Craig, been looking forward to this conversation. [00:04:01] Craig: I feel like I owed you a more specific welcome because unlike our, in the dirt episodes, this one's a little different, we're gonna go deeper. And I think it's important. Many people who listen to in the dirt are where you're my sidekick. You're someone who's got, you know, a little bit more technical knowledge about the bike industry and bike components, et cetera than I do. And we're just a good muse for each other on our journey in this sport. But in today's episode, we're gonna go a little deeper about you and your companies. [00:04:30] Randall: Yeah, it's a bit of, a bit of a throwback. It reminds me of I think it was June 2018 when I first came on the pod, which is when you and I first got acquainted as well in this friendship. That's blossom from that. So, it'll be fun to have another, another such conversation. [00:04:45] Craig: Yeah, it's super early days. And I remember, you know, part of that journey was me ending up selecting a thesis spike in part, because I just found you to be very thoughtful as a product designer. And I would love for the listener today who may be coming at it, having not listened to that original episode, to just understand a little bit more about your background in the bike industry and your philosophy around creating bicycles and componentry. [00:05:11] Randall: Sure. There's a deeper dive that we did in that aforementioned episode, but long on the short I've been riding, as many of us have been riding, since I was a kid really got serious into it. Around age 18, started racing was working in a bike shop here in the Boston area. Then later on, I got to pack fodder pro status on the cross country circuit for a couple of years, which was a lot of fun dirt bagging out of the back of my Honda element around the country. And from there did some supply chain work outside of the bike industry in China lived there for some years picked up Mandarin, [00:05:44] Craig: Hang on Randall. So how. Did, how did you get into supply chain? [00:05:49] Randall: So let's see. I was 21 and getting ready to finish college and decided to go and do a study abroad. I was at Zhongshan university in Guangzhou and met a man who became a good friend and a mentor who hired me to work for his trading and manufacturing company. It was a Chinese company Chinese own Chinese management. So I was the only non-Chinese on the team. And I was charged with first business development. But later on, got deep into product development, I was brought into all the, the key meetings with our big vendors and learned the ropes of how it works at that very deep level. And at the same time was picking up a lot of the. Not just the technical language and understanding of how things are made across a, a broad range of sectors, including, technologies that apply to bike. But then also the cultural elements of successfully architecting a supply chain. That was a pretty formative period for me. [00:06:46] Craig: I bet. Yeah, it's so huge. And one of those things that it's easy, if you've never got into the manufacturing world to, to not think about, but really understanding the culture and particularly in your case, understanding the language and developing a fluency of communication in the native tongue. It's just so immensely helpful in greasing the manufacturing wheels, so to speak. [00:07:06] Randall: Oh, absolutely. Frankly, none of what, the companies I've been involved with do, would be possible without, having learned the language and later did a graduate degree in us China relations. So learning, not just the culture from a firsthand perspective, but also a lot of the history, a lot of the philosophies reading some original texts, very slowly with the dictionary, but reading them nonetheless. It all makes a big difference when you're trying to build a, a deep trust based relationship with a party who has a very different background. [00:07:39] Craig: A hundred percent. Now, was the bike still part of your life during this period? Or had you shelved it, pursuing your professional vocation? [00:07:46] Randall: So I was riding a bit, not a ton but I was good friends with the owner of the biggest bike shop in Juhi a couple hours outside of Guang Jo, where I had lived when I first went to China was teaching English for a period. He's still a good friend. We've actually done some bike packing together. And it was, it was interesting. He was someone who, doesn't speak much English at all. So I've only ever spoken Mandarin with him. And this is saying in Chinese, it's like a duck talking to a chicken. And that was our relationship at first, but we are unified by this love of the bicycle. And over, over time, I, I, you know, obviously learned to communicate and we had a lot of shared experiences, so, [00:08:22] Craig: And then did you, did you find yourself drifting back with interest into the bicycle industry? Proper at some. [00:08:29] Randall: That kind of came later. I got to a point in my career where I graduated from grad school, going through a lot of, of life change, life transition, and. Was just thinking to myself, well, what, what is that kind of nexus of things that I'm good at that I'm knowledgeable about? That I care about that resonate with me in, in my lifestyle and that I can, I can get paid to do. And working in the bike industry made a lot of sense because I had the experiences as a racer. I had some relationships, obviously Mandarin was, very useful from a supply chain management standpoint. And also I ended up doing some market development stuff when I was at specialized, but mostly supply chain. And so it really, it's kind of the, the same way that my decision to go to China you know, was made it was okay. Well, you know, here are a bunch of different factors that I can weigh in order to, to make a decision. And ultimately, bike was like, okay, this makes sense I can do this and I can probably do it well, and I can, I can learn this. I can Excel at this. If I put my mind to it, [00:09:32] Craig: So you mentioned that you ended up at specialized bicycles out in Morgan hill. Can you just talk about what your role was there and some of the things you've learned, obviously you had supply chain experience. You had the experience over in China, but transitioning to a bicycle specific supply chain. What were some of the takeaways from that experience and, and maybe what were some of the projects of note that you worked. [00:09:54] Randall: Sure. So as you make clear, I wasn't there very long around a year some places are a good fit. Some places are not for each of us. But specialize in a lot of ways is, is arguably one of, if the not most innovative big brand also a marketing powerhouse and marketing is a substantial part of it, but there was a lot of very smart people in the room. And working for a company like specialized. We were a major account. So even though I was not an executive in the company I was working with the leadership of the factories that we were buying from on the projects that I was helping to manage. So that was, again, another one of these serendipitous experiences that made it, such that when I started my own thing, those relationships were already established in terms of projects. So the one that probably people know know most would be the diverge. And I was one of the team members on that. I shouldn't overstate my role. And it was an interesting project. I remember riding around on, prototypes of that bike. And just the concept of a gravel bike, making a ton of sense and being really excited about it. It didn't realize the vision the way that I would liked it to have. I think the biggest compromise I saw was there was a different tariff code for frames that can fit bigger than a 35 millimeter tire. So it was like 7% more expensive. And so we constrained the tire size to a maximum 35 millimeter in order to stay under the tariff, cuz otherwise it's a mountain bike and there was some protectionist policies around mountain bikes at some point. And then there are various other things that I did on my own bikes later on. I didn't have those constraints. [00:11:27] Craig: Yeah, that's so interesting. I, I remember in our earlier conversation back in, in June of 2018, when you first came on to talk about thesis and you talked about your history there, and I remember walking away from that conversation, just finding it, very interesting, the business decisions that get thrown on top of a product designer's vision that end up creating constraints, whether it's the time of year it has to launch or the, the tariffs that it may incur because it has larger than a 35 millimeter wheel tire size. It's super fascinating and interesting, and I can see why knowing you as well as I do that. You know, you don't want to be constrained by those criteria. You ultimately, your heart is in creating the best product. [00:12:10] Randall: Yeah. And there, of course there are constraints in what I do too. Right. I, I'm not gonna make a, like, I didn't make a $10,000 bicycle. I made a bicycle that did everything that I think a bicycle needs in order to, not. Really be dreaming about the $10,000 bicycle at night. Right. So, there's different constraints when you have to have a complete line and you have to have good, better, best, and you need to have a 3.2 to 3.5 X markup relatives cost a good sold in order for your business model to be viable because all these different things that when you are a small company with less overhead when you're mostly word of mouth and so on that, you can do things a little bit differently. [00:12:49] Craig: Yep. Yeah. So I'm gonna fast forward a bunch here, but at, at you decided to create a brand called thesis bicycle. And when did that come into the world? Was it 2018? [00:13:01] Randall: Early 2018. I flew over to Asia, did a whirlwind several week tour, three factories a day in mainland China in Taiwan to set up the supply chain, decide who we were gonna work with, build to build the materials, came back with a suitcase full of parts and built up a prototype. And then was actually you'll probably recall I had that, that raw black frame that I had a decal cutter that I cut decals for. And then I had all the parts and then I was loaning this bike out and asking people, would you buy it? And enough people said yes. And I said, okay, well here's the website. And enough people actually put their dollars down where it made sense to start a company around it. [00:13:38] Craig: And people keep saying yes to the thesis bike. I mean, it's, it's one of them that's in my quiver, in my garage that I, I still enjoy to this day. I mean, it's super well executed. And I think my opinion of the bike has been well documented. One of the thing along things along the way, you know, you decided it was gonna be a direct consumer brand. You sourced a bunch of components primarily to make sure that every rider could get the precise fit that they want. I know you're a big advocate of differing, the crank length size. For example, handlebars are an obvious one, but crank length is, I think is one that often gets overlooked and you get, you know, incredibly short riders still riding 1 72, 5 cranks. In addition to those components, you also developed a thesis wheel line. And I wanted to, to sort of talk about that a little bit, because obviously as we go into what's next, you have a history making wheels. So when you made that thesis wheels thesis wheel set, what, what were you going for at the time? And as you embark on this new brand, that will mention very shortly, we can talk about what your goals are for that. [00:14:45] Randall: Sure. Well, actually my, my wheel building history goes back a little bit further. I built my first wheels when I was 18 for myself not knowing anything. So, literally ordering parts outta QBP and I had some XT hubs and a magic rim and researched each component. And I built a set of wheels that held up. Later on it specialized, I was charged with revamping the access line, which I don't know if it's still this way, but at that time it was basically their non-real house brand for all their more entry to mid-level stuff. And was able to talk to the wheel engineers at that time and really learned a lot from them. I read a pretty well known book called the bicycle wheel by jobs Brandt amongst others and kind of learned a lot of the physics of wheels at that time. The cost structure around them. And then with thesis, those wheels I just kind of incorporated all the best practices in terms of component selection and engineering and so on. And in fact, if you look at what we did for thesis, you see a lot of that DNA in logos logos takes it a step further, but it's, a lot of the same principles. [00:15:49] Craig: Interesting. Yeah. So I think it's a great opportunity to introduce your new brand. Why don't you just give us a little bit of an overview of the brand and what it means to you? [00:15:59] Randall: Sure. So the brand is logos L O G O S, which is a bit of a play there. Right? Bike industries notorious for just slapping some logos on things and throwing a bunch of marketing at things. But logos is the concept of logos it's a Greek philosophical concept implying a reason or, or discourse, especially a reason to discourse. And even deeper than that, the underlying principle of order or knowledge that underpins reality. The idea for logos actually came from Sam Jackson, our head of brand who's been with us almost since the beginning. And it really deserves a lot of the credit for the brand identity and voice and a lot of the vision for the brand. I can't say enough how, how pleased I am with the work that he's done. But this idea of logos being, first principles based which very much aligns with thesis as well. There was a strong point of view again, itself built on first principles. And it ties into other concepts that are very much aligned with how I see the world is ties to Daoism and Zen that this word logos is imbued with. [00:17:01] Craig: That's exciting. And congratulations on the recent launch. I know you to be very meticulous and I know for the listener, you're passionate about sharing knowledge. So I think it's, it'll be great to just talk about what makes a great wheel. To begin with, because whether they're buying a logos wheel or some something else, the listener needs to know, how do they need to think about the wheels that are underneath? [00:17:28] Randall: Sure. The reality is that wheels arguably more than any other component in the bike industry. There's a, a huge number of brands. There's a ton of marketing, a lot of a lot of storytelling that may or may not be based in, in reality or in science. And so, of course what we do reflects my pH. Reflects our team's philosophy, but I think that a lot of these principles are fairly universal, so I'll try to keep it at a higher level. So, we look at it in terms of performance, strength, reliability, and serviceability. And we're calling the wheels we're launching with the Omni collection. And omnium has this concept of a high degree of versatility, right. Excelling at a wide variety of disciplines. So there are three different wheels a 700, a six 50 and a two nine. We'll talk about the specifics in a moment. But we can go into components. You wanna start with hubs. [00:18:17] Craig: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, and, and I don't want your, your comments to be lost on the listener. I think wheels, God, I feel. Ever since I started in the sport of cycling wheels have always been regarded as like something that if you invest a little bit more in, you get a lot more out of it. So it's, it's interesting to think a lot of us, when we buy bikes from a bike shop, you're just gonna get the wheels that come to it. And it takes a while before you start to think about getting a replacement set of wheels or a second set of wheels. One of the interesting things I've always found about gravel cycling is a lot of us come into the sport thinking I'm gonna get two sets of wheels right off the bat. So I, I, I do think for, and I can speak for my personal experience. Like I've thought more about wheels than I ever have historically, in any other sector of the sport, primarily because when I got my first proper gravel bike, I was all in on getting two different wheel size. [00:19:12] Randall: Yeah, and in fact, one of our core thesis, if you will, when we started thesis, was that you could have one bike that does nearly everything. And two wheels recorded that. And we, we saw, I mean, we still see about a 50% adoption rate on two wheel set amongst our riders. And we encourage people before they, start looking at an entirely new bike. Well, consider two wheel sets as a way, as long as you have the tire clearance of a way of getting more utility outta the same bike, instead of having a road bike and a cross bike and a gravel bike and, and all these other bikes that if, if thoughtfully designed and thoughtfully curated from a spec standpoint can actually, serve all of those purposes really well. It's really an omnium bicycle. [00:19:54] Craig: Yeah. So for starting at the hub, I mean, for many of the uninitiated, the hub is a bit of a black box, right? As long as it's working and the bike is rolling forward. The bike you're buying off the shelf. You're not thinking too much about it, but what, what should people be thinking about with respect to hub? [00:20:13] Randall: Well, hubs are a major point of failure and there is a lot that goes into making a good hub and there are certain designs that are better than others in certain designs that have inherent trade offs. I mean, every design has inherent trade offs. Some of those trade offs are well, we'll, we'll talk about like, if you want reliability, you want strength to weight. You want something that's serviceable. You want something that performs well, well, there are certain designs that, really aren't necessarily amenable to that. And then other designs that are but they have other constraints. So, there are Paul based systems. These are systems that have spring loaded poles that press against an outer ring that has teeth in it to engage when they're turning. And this is a very common hub design you see them on the very entry level. You also see some higher end versions of them that are out there and that, tend to hold up better, but they all inherently have the same issue of if you have three Pauls, one of them doesn't engage properly. Or, or maybe there's a little bit of wear some contamination. Well then all the load is going to, potentially just one of those poles. And so instead of having three poles to spread that load over, now, you just have one and that's when they tend to, detonate, they tend to fall apart. And then additionally, a three Paul design doesn't have the same peak load strength, nevermind the, resiliency against MIS clocking or contamination of the next one, which I'll talk about, which is a ratchet system. So the most famous ratchet is the star ratchet. This was patented by Hugi in the nineties and then popularized by DT Swiss. Folks here will have heard of the DT three 50, which we used on our thesis wheels. And then the more expensive DT, two 40, which achieves a lighter weight by using higher end materials. But otherwise is, functionally identical. And the original design, which I would argue is, superior to, newer iterations has two ratchets that are independently sprung, such that when they are rotating, if one of them were to get jammed or misaligned, the other one can still adapt to fully interface with the one that's not perfectly aligned. So you get full engagement and it's very unlikely where you have a situation where all the teeth are not engaged. So you with me so far, [00:22:26] Craig: Yeah, I am. And I, and I'm having a little bit of a smile on my face, cuz I do remember the hige hub back in the, in the nineties. I may have actually had one and I remember it was the loudest hub of anybody I knew. Which I took a little bit of pride on, on my mountain bike, but it was, it was always regarded as something that was the design was, you can't say failure proof, but very, very reliable. [00:22:52] Randall: Well, and two things about that. One newer iterations are not as loud unless you have the 54 tooth versions. And then secondly, there's a very good chance that that hub is still on the road. James Huang over at cycling tips called hubs with this design, the world's most reliable hubs and they have a reputation for that for very good reasons. What we just discussed. They're very resilience against all the sorts of failure modes that you might see with other types of systems. Now, the patent for that expired a few years ago. And this was one of the reasons why we saw an opportunity to, start a company because on their higher end stuff. Companies like DT and others have migrated towards a single sprung mechanism. And there were some issues with that. They actually had a not a recall, but a a service bullet put out because, when you have only one side sprung, if that one sprung ratchet gets jammed or is not properly aligned with the fixed ratchet, with the fixed interface the teeth won't engage and you'll get wear, or, non-engagement. [00:23:53] Craig: is the decision to go that route a, a cost savings. [00:23:56] Randall: not cost savings. I think it's twofold. I think the primary driver honestly, is probably that you need to have something new and if your thing goes off patent, then, being able to point to something and say, this new thing is better is, useful. And there, there are some advantages to the what's called EXP system. I think they were able to shave a little bit of weight. They were able to push the, main bearing outboards, slightly to distribute, forces a, little bit better on the axle. But at the expense of this, gold standard reliability and part of it is tolerances. So you need to have much higher tolerances on a product like that , because you only have one ratchet that's moving. So if it ever gets jammed that fails versus with dual sprung, if one of them gets jammed as, we said, the other one can, slide to meet it. It's just something inherent about that design that, will always be true. And there's a bunch of different iterations of it. And if it's executed, well, it can, hold up. It can perform well over time. But one of the things that we believe in is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There wasn't a problem with the dual sprung mechanism. And in fact it has some advantages. So that's, your single sprung mechanisms. And then the other one is spray clutches. So this is a hub like Onyx, you're familiar with them. [00:25:09] Craig: I'm not familiar with. [00:25:10] Randall: So without going into the details of how a spray clutch works the big advantage of a spray clutch is you get instant engagement. Now that instant engagement is something that a certain subset of like trials riders and some mountain bikers seem to swear by I think that for, at least from my perspective, the obsession with, instant engagement is a little bit overblown and there can be some downsides with kickback on certain suspension designs. Plus they tend to be heavier a little bit more draggy, a lot more complicated. There's a lot more parts in a, hub like that. But if you need something for that application, that's not a bad way to accomplish it. Now I've put the dual sprung star ratchet on this pedestal as is what I think is the best. Right. But these other ones have advantages, too. So instant engagement with the spray clutch. With a Paul based system. There's ways in which you can design that, where you can get effectively instant engagement as well. And so if instant engagement is really critical for you, well, with a star ratchet design, we use a 36 tooth star ratchet, which 36 tooth, 360 degrees of rotation divided by a 36 that's 10 degrees of engagement. We find that that's kind of the sweet spot, where you get, a high degree of strength and reliability and long term durability together. Engagement. That's plenty quick. But if you want instantaneous engagement, you're probably looking at Paul based or spray clutches, and then just accepting the compromises of, more complexity, less reliability, more weight, more drag. [00:26:38] Craig: Yeah, it's always interesting from a business perspective, when you, when you layer in that patented technology component of it, that was on lock until, as you said, I think it was last year that that patent expired and allowed other people to build in that way. Cuz until that point, if you were building a wheel and you wanted to, you know, do something similar or not pay those licensing fees, you had to go through these efforts to kind of design something new that inherent with everything is gonna have compromises and, and positive things and negative things about it. So it is interesting. It'll be interesting to see going forward if some of those companies that invested a lot in these other technologies. Actually just adopted a dual SPR floating star ratchet because it's off patent and they can do so. [00:27:20] Randall: I mean, there are a few others that are out there. Execution matters, tolerances matter. The quality of the material, the quality of the machining, the quality of the heat treatment process. So the design of it is only one part that goes into making a great hub. One of the other things that I wanna call out that I really like about this dual SPR star ratchet is because it's been out there so long and because it's so established, I mean, these have been used in Roal wheels and bond tracker wheels , N be used spec DT hubs with this design. There's tons of parts out there and they're serviceable without tools. So. some riders may already have parts that are compatible with our new hub set in their toolboxes because they already have, a set of DT three 50 S the, free hub mechanism, the end caps, the star ratchets and Springs. All of these parts are interchangeable. So, this gets into some of our philosophy of around open standards and this is effectively an open standard and arguably the best open standard. And, I would argue further the best standard period for hubs, for the vast majority of riders. [00:28:25] Craig: So we've gone nerd deep on the inside of this hub. And if you're interested, like, I think you, you have to either look at the hub on your bike or on the logos components website. They've got a, sort of a blown out diagram of the different components that, that are inside there. I do think it's interesting to, to have in your back pocket to understand, and maybe even think about what you're riding today, but there's other parts of the, the hub that we should probably talk about. So outside of that mechanism is the, the hub shell. So what do you, how are you building these hub shells? [00:28:56] Randall: Yeah. So, one of the big things with a hub shell is, well, one there's the material, and then there's two, how you process it. So, a lot of hubs use 60 61 which is a, pretty standard, still a high grade aluminum. But it's cheaper to buy cheaper to work with. So if you look in the specs of some of your components, these are numbers that you'll see, and this is just relating to the, formulation of the alloy. We use in our hub shell a material called 60 82 T six. And this is stronger and lighter, but also more expensive to purchase and to process. And that T six refers to the heat treatment process. You start with ability of this material. You cold forge it. So these like giant forging machines, to forge this form. And then you heat treat that, and then you put it on a lathe to machine out, all the circular parts on the internals and external of the hub. And then you use a multi-axis mill to mill out all the features and that's, the main differentiator, for example, between the, DT three 50 and the two 40. Is that material and the fact that because it's stronger, you can machine away more of it and still get the same strength. And because we're making them, in-house now we're able to use the, higher end material, but still put it into a product that is, in this case, a grant, [00:30:12] Craig: Got it. And then the final component of that, that hub is, is obviously the bearings and bearings get a lot of attention in the bike industry. Why don't you talk about your choices there and what, what should, what should riders be thinking about with respect to bearings? [00:30:25] Randall: honestly, any good brand name stainless steel bearing with good seals and so on is, is going to work well. I'm actually gonna take a step back from answering this one, because I'm going to have someone on the pod to go deep nerd on bearings in the future. We did look at ceramic and found that there's not really any advantage to ceramic for, the vast majority of riders who don't have sponsorship and a team mechanic because you get a, trivial performance benefit and that performance benefit turns into a deficit pretty quickly, cuz they wear so quickly for reasons that I'll, hold off until that, in-depth bearing interview. [00:31:00] Craig: That makes sense and funny, you know, on my, my bottom bracket from my recent build, I was sort of enamored by the notion of doing a ceramic bottom bracket. But in talking to the experts, I ended up with a stainless steel bearing bottom bracket as well, [00:31:13] Randall: Yeah. I, I made the mistake in my racing days of spending a lot of money on ceramic bearings and not having reviewed the science. And so tend to be a lot more disciplined these days. [00:31:23] Craig: better than my racing days, where people were spending money, replacing all of their steel bolts with titanium, bolts, and spending ungodly amounts of money to save a few grams here and there. [00:31:32] Randall: Well, I guess you pay more attention when you're buying many thousands of bearings than when you're buying one bicycle's worth [00:31:38] Craig: Yeah. [00:31:39] Randall: Yeah. [00:31:39] Craig: exactly well, it's it's coming out from the hub. We've got spokes and nipples to talk about and then really definitely wanna get into rims. Cause I think there's a lot of kind of takeaways that people need to revisit regarding rim technology that I want to get into. [00:31:52] Randall: Sure. Let's start with spokes. So we use pillar wing 20 spokes, which is a, bladed actually more of a diamond wing shape spoke. And we use these not because they're arrow though. That is a benefit, but because the same process that generates that aerodynamic shape is a cold forging process effectively. It's a cold rolling process that helps to orient the grain structure of the metal in the spoke to improve its elasticity and thus its fatigue life. That spoke also has some, complex strain relieving at both ends by the threads and by the head. And these are the areas where the, spoke tends to fail. And with a lightweight spoke, they wanna wind up. So if you're using a lightweight round spoke, as you're building it, you're gonna essentially twist the spoke. But if you have ablated spoke, you have something to grab onto and a reference point to be able to see, okay, this spoke is oriented straight. And any twisting in that spoke is, again, these are stresses that are going to result in increased fatigue and failure over the life of the spoke. So that's why we went with these ones and pillar, they make a great spoke out of the same, high end Swedish, sand Vic material. 3 0 2 plus is the particular wire that they start with, which is what a lot of the top end spoke start with. And it just makes for a spoke that's really lightweight really easy to build with, and that has outstanding durability, [00:33:17] Craig: and you're lacing those to brass nipples. Am I correct? [00:33:22] Randall: Exposed brass nipples. Yeah. We have essentially a zero tolerance policy towards aluminum nipples or hidden nipples. The reason being that well, first aluminum ones they tend to see split and fail. And for a wheel to perform at its best for a long period of time, there are some basic maintenance that needs to be done part of which is, checking the tension and truing it and retentioning as needed. We'll talk in a moment about how you can reduce the maintenance that's required, but with an aluminum nipple well, two things, one you tend to get oxidization that results in the nipple seizing in the interface with that stainless steel spoke. So now you have an oxidization process, a chemical process where it's making it. So it's sticking and yeah, you can put, spoke prep on there, so it doesn't stick. But eventually that oxidization is gonna take place. And then it's a much softer material than brass, so brass won't oxidize in the same way. And it's harder. So, why would you lose use aluminum then? Well, it's lighter. Well, how much lighter? Well, with a 24 spoke wheel. So 48 spokes, total 48 nipples. It's like 36 grams. So for 36 grams, you're gonna take a wheel that could last a really long time and you're gonna make it so that there's a good chance, especially if you ride in rain or any sort of wet conditions that the moment you try to true this, wheel or, retention the wheel you're gonna have to rebuild it from scratch with new spokes gets real expensive, real quick. [00:34:46] Craig: that makes sense. And I, I will make a point on exposed nipples. I'm definitely a big fan of that. The, the one, a couple wheels I've ever had that have broke. I've been fortunate not to break a lot of spokes in my life, but I did break one on a hidden nipple wheel. And it was the most frustrating experience in my life trying to fix that wheel. [00:35:03] Randall: Yeah, well, and, that's a, more extreme, but still common scenario. But again, being able to just tension the wheel, right? If I have a hidden nipple, I need to remove my tires. I might be wasting the sealant that's in there, cuz everything is too going tubeless. Now I have to remove the, valve stem and the rim tape. Right. And then I need to go in and, access the, back of the nipple from, from. And then when the wheel is all trued, well, then I gotta clean up the rim. So I have a nice clean surface and then I have to retape it. I gotta put the valve stems in. I need to put the tire back on and I need to put sealant in and then reinflate it. And so you're, it's harder to true there's no arrow benefit. This has been shown. The one tiny benefit is that you can have a slightly smaller spoke hole, but you can make up for that with just having a tiny bit more carbon reinforcement. And the added weight is on the order of single grams. [00:35:56] Craig: Yeah. [00:35:56] Randall: And so I'll add those single grams every day. [00:35:58] Craig: So now we're, now we're out to the rim. Let's talk about the rims. You, you mentioned op opening up that from a size perspective, you're doing 6 5700 C and a 20 Niner, but let's talk a little bit more specifically about the material you're using and what you're going for with these particular rims. [00:36:16] Randall: Well, I wanna start with something off the bat, before going into materials, which is be hooks. So this is another one of those things together with nipples that we take a strong stance on. We believe that any rim that is designed and marketed to be used with a road tubeless tire should have a bead. There's a trend in the industry towards going hook list for these rims and there's still tires that are blowing off of rims. And, I don't believe that having compatibility charts. So like our rims are only compatible with these tires is a good solution. [00:36:49] Craig: So to be spec, to be specific Randall, just so, just so the listener's clear. So you're saying on your 700 sea rim, which may take a higher pressure road size tire. So not talking about your 40 C gravel tires, but if someone's running a high pressure, 32 C tire, you think that Beed hooks are a safety require. [00:37:11] Randall: Absolutely. And in fact, we're not talking that higher pressure either. It's interesting. Up until recently the pressure charts would go up linearly with weight and then they would taper off and have the same weight for a bunch of higher weights. And it's because of concerns about blowoffs. If you have a system tires, rim, and rim tape that are all within tolerance, then a hopeless system can be safe, can secure the tire properly. The problem is. There are too many variables. There's the particular manufacturer. There's the production batch. You can't check every tire. You do check every rim. So the, tolerances there tend to be a lot more stable, but then let's say you have a tire that is within spec and a rim that's within spec. And even the tape is in spec, but then you have to replace the tape and you replace it with a slightly thicker or thinner tape, or you don't apply it properly or something like that. Now you have a blow off risk, right? So I think that relying on different manufacturers to stay within a very high tolerance for a part that has a very high consequence in the events that something goes wrong is just not a good approach. speeds have advantages. Up until recently they were a lot lighter and they were cheaper to manufacture because you had a lower scrap rate because the way that the hooks were formed you were machining or you were having an insert in there. So on fortunately we have what we're calling a high impact bead hook that adds a trivial amount of mass per rim. It's on the order of five grams and it's molded in. So you can have that high impact resistance. You can have the tire retention, you can have the weight more or less on par and the cost is slightly higher because of how it's produced. But we think that it's absolutely worth it. [00:38:55] Craig: Beyond these safety concerns? What am I experiencing differently when I'm installing a tire on a, a, a bead hook versus a hook list rim. [00:39:04] Randall: If it's designed properly, nothing because when you're installing the tire you have that, trough in the middle of the rim and on today's wider rims, that trough is generally pretty big and plenty deep. So you just drop the bead into there and then it pops out and sits on the bead seat, retained by a bead lock, which we also do on our rims. And then the hook is again, helping to prevent blow offs, which can be catastrophic. [00:39:29] Craig: Okay. Gotcha. Cause I'm, I'm sure I've, I've set up tires on both bead hooks and hook list and haven't really noticed the difference [00:39:36] Randall: yeah. Any difference that you would notice would be a consequence of something other than the hooks. [00:39:40] Craig: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. So good. An interesting data point for people to research, particularly, and specifically on 700 C rims and high pressure tires. So taking that. At that point aside, let's talk about the rims. These are carbon rims. You're making what's the talk about the carbon rims in general. [00:40:02] Randall: sure. You have the carbon, you have the resin and then you have how it's processed, how it's formed. Right? So we're using Tory 700, 800 carbon, very common material throughout the bike industry. We're using high grade residents that again, very common throughout the industry on the higher end. We have access to the same materials as all the other brands and vice versa. So the magic is not there per se. There is some cool things you can do at resins. That's a whole nother conversation. But the processing is really a big difference. So we have a really high precision molding process where the rim comes out of the mold free of any imperfections in the surface such that there's no coatings required. So that's 20, 30 grams a rim easily of coatings just to deal with cosmetic imperfections that our rims come out without. And then you save it an additional little bit of weight as a result of this the precision of the process and the way in which it removes. As much excess resin as possible, cuz the resin is not what's giving the rims, their strength. It is the carbon. And then the resin is bonding the layers of carbon together to give it that structure. So any excess resin , you can remove and maintain the same strength. Right? So any excess resin is not contributing to the structural integrity of the structure. [00:41:19] Craig: Right, [00:41:20] Randall: So that's on the material side other things I mentioned Beadlock asymmetry. So this is another thing that we do across our line and we'll always do across our line. The, rim is basically it's kind of biased to one side. [00:41:31] Craig: Yep. [00:41:32] Randall: and what this does is your hubs are not symmetrical, right? So up front, you have a disc on one side, no disc on the other. In the back, you have a disc on one side and you have a much bigger, much wider cassette and free hub body on the other side. So by going with an asymmetrical rim, it helps to balance out the spoke angles and thus the spoke tensions, which means that you have a wheel that has higher average tension and total tension with the same number of spoke. And you have a reduction in the change intention with each revolution or each impact. And these two things together make a stronger wheel. That's more durable with the same number of spokes and the, the impact is actually quite, quite substantial. So we do that across the board and think that we can't see any reason with the exception of a wheel that is designed purely for arrow, and even then we would still do an asymmetric rim. [00:42:28] Craig: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So we've gone into a lot of detail as to the component tree and the quality of what you guys are putting together, but at a certain point, these things need to get assembled. And I know historically like that, that is a challenge from a process perspective. It's like, how do you build these wheels up from these quality components? Because if they're not built well, you'll end up with a shit wheel. [00:42:50] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. So there's exactly right. There's the curation in manufacturing the, of the components and how they're put together is no less important. You can have the best components in the world. If they're not assembled properly, it's not gonna hold up. You're not gonna get the performance outta the box, nevermind over time. So this is basic things like, prepping the spokes. So you have a, material that helps to lubricate the interface between the threads and the N. And this is, something that's basic needs to be done. In our case, we have essentially hand laced machine built for a first pass. So a machine will go through and adjust and get the wheel round and true. And then we'll have a skilled person finished the wheel and this bring. It from round and true to where the tension around the wheel one is as high as it can be. And again, this results in a stronger wheel that also has less change in tension as it turns. But then also the spokes are as close intention to each other as possible. And this part is actually hard to achieve. It requires a lot of skill and it takes more time and money. And then how do you validate that while you machine check it? So you check the tension in every single spoke and then put it through the true and the roundest check again before going out the door. [00:44:02] Craig: Yeah, that makes sense. So I think we've, we've dug in pretty deep on wheel technology [00:44:06] Randall: Yeah. [00:44:07] Craig: a lot to think about I'm sure people are gonna be interested in, in these wheels. We've talked about, you know, all three, all three sizes are gonna have asymmetric rims. The 700 C is gonna have a, a high impact bead hook for the reasons you mentioned, the other two are gonna be hopeless. The one thing we haven't talked about. It's just been the, the width. And I, I have found that in other conversations with other wheel manufacturers, that that's an interesting area to talk about and just kind of nail home, you know, why we're seeing some of the gravel wheels go wider in the width of the rim than, you know, historically was part of, you know, road and road plus bikes. [00:44:49] Randall: Sure. I mean this is a trend across the board. And in fact, it's, it's been taken a little bit too far in some cases, there is a, Goldilock spot. [00:44:56] Craig: I think is great. Like, I, I, I mean, I think that's one of the great things about gravel is like we've been and component manufacturers, like they've been pushing the extremes to figure out where the sweet spot is. [00:45:07] Randall: To figure out what the sweet spot is, but then also to, meet what, what the market is telling them to make and not really sticking to first principles is like, oh, people have a perception that wider is better, so let's keep going wider. Right. Just like lighter is better. Let's keep shedding weight and then a year down the road let them worry about it. But in terms of widths, the sweet spot I would argue for a 700 sea wheel is 23 to 25 millimeters. Right. And you see a lot of wheels coming out in that range. Ours are 24. And again, with these bead hooks, and you can run down to a 28 millimeter tire with a 24 internal width. And it'll be secure and it'll be properly supported. And a 28 or a 30 will be aerodynamically. Well matched to that rim, which will have an external width of 32 in our case. Which by the way, we we'll talk about arrow in a second. And also being able to support the, the higher end of the range. So in the case of narrower tires, you want it to be aerodynamically matched on the case of bigger tires. You just want it to be wide enough to support that tire at low pressures, without tire squirm, and to give the tire a good shape, as opposed to a light bulb shape, that you're engaging the side knobs of the tire, maybe a little bit early and so on. And tire design has had to evolve together with rim with but as a system it's definitely an improvement in the sweet spot is really in this 23 to 25 millimeter internal range [00:46:34] Craig: Yeah. [00:46:34] Randall: for a 700 C rim. [00:46:36] Craig: I think that light bulb shape of the tire is kind of interesting. It was an interesting visual for me to initially get introdu juice to and how the wider rims have kind of, made that shape less pronounced. And you do get more performance out of the tire. I've found. [00:46:50] Randall: and this has enabled substantially or it's required with the lower pressures that tub bliss is allowing. So remember the original et RTO standards the European standards body for narrower rims came out at a time when everyone was running clinchers with tubes and you had to run higher pressures because otherwise you would pinch flat. Well, now you have tubeless tires, so you can push the limits of pressure. But once you drop below a certain pressure, if you're not properly supported by a wide rim, that thing's just gonna score 'em around. So that's what kind of force this issue. [00:47:25] Craig: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. And I was, you know, when you mentioned your new efforts around logos components and you mentioned you were adding yet a third wheel size, I was actually a little bit surprised. So can you talk about adding the 29 ER, wheel into your lineup? [00:47:42] Randall: Sure before I do, I wanna close out one thought on the 700 CS because it's relevant, which is aerodynamics. And this kind of applies across the board, but especially seven hundreds. There's the rule of a hundred, 5%. And this rule essentially states that your rim has to be a hundred, 5%, the width of the seated tire, not what's stamped on the side, but the tire as it's actually measured on the rim when it's seated in order for there to be any significant aerodynamic benefit, which is to say, let's say you have a 50, 60 millimeter deep rim. And you're like, oh, it looks so air. It looks cool, but it's really narrow and you run a 28 mill tire and your rim is only 28 or 27 millimeter wide. Most of the air dynamic benefit you're losing because the airflow is becoming detached before it even gets to the rim. It's detaching as it goes around the tire. And this is even more so for gravel, fortunately we're seeing less of this, but arrow gravel rims is just marketing. In fact, if anything, it's just giving you more turbulence in a cross. So the rule of one oh 5% that's says physics and everything else is marketing. Unless you're adhering to that the two nine, so we built wheels with thesis specifically for our bikes. And when we did this program, we wanted to have a three wheel quiver that covers the, the full range of experiences. And so the two nine wheel it's built to a trail standard, it's a 31 internal versus the 24 of the 700 C is designed to take tires anywhere from 2.1, 2.2 on the smaller end, all the way to 2.6. And again, it's gonna be wide enough to support that range of tires at a wide range of pressures. It's light, but not super light. It's 1,565 grams which is on the heavier end of cross country in the intermediate lighter end of trail. But we wanted something that would just be bombproof it's light enough to race, but we'll hold up for all your training. And when you're underbid and you hit something sketchy, it's gonna gonna hold up as well. [00:49:43] Craig: Yeah. So they obviously there's some gravel bikes, like the cut through it that run a 29 or wheel, but just so I'm clear. So this is a, this is a proper, in addition to servicing that market, this is a proper mountain bike wheel. [00:49:55] Randall: Oh, yeah. So when you think about the types of gravel bikes that are using a two nine wheel, they're generally more expedition type bikes, otherwise you'd be better off on our 700 sea podge. So the Uday 29 is very much a wheel that if you were going and doing a, an expedition this is a great wheel to bring, because even though it's on the lighter side compared to some wheels in that segment, you have the asymmetry, the weight is being saved through materials and precision engineering and manufacturer rather than compromising on structural integrity. And one thing that's true about all these wheels by the way is each wheel set uses a single length of spoke, which we include a spare with it. So, if you ever did have an issue being able to change a spoke in the field is, about as simple as, it could be . [00:50:40] Craig: Gotcha. Super interesting. Well, we've, we've gone deep on wheels. I, I, there's a few more things I wanted to cover, but I think we're running a bit long on time. Is there anything else in, in parting? You know, this is a, a big week probably when you listeners hearing this a week behind us, but you've got logos components off the ground. We'll certainly put a link in the show notes. Is there anything else about the brand or the ethos that you wanted to share with the listener before we sign off for today? [00:51:08] Randall: The long and the short is, you have to have a reason for existing. And in our case, we saw an opportunity to make something that fit our perspective on what the ideal wheel would be, and to pull it off at a price point that is affordable to a much bigger audience and to provide some, education at the same time. So if you're curious about any of the concepts that, that we discussed here on the pod, I know we went pretty deep nerd here. Logos components.com hop in there. We've created some materials there to make it easy to get one's head around these things and, it applies to wheels more generally. The last thing is, I really want to thank all the stakeholders who helped to make this happen. This is particularly Sam Jackson, our head of brand, who I mentioned before, as well as Angela Chang, our head of operations. This is our vendors. This is various industry experts. Who've provided their 2 cents. This is the ridership community. Many of whom I assume are listening who contributed their thoughts when I first posted the idea for this project some months ago and got a lot of positive feedback. And in fact, quite a few presales. So can't thank you enough. And then Greg. The first conversation that we had was really the tipping point with thesis in terms of providing an opportunity for people to get to know us and to see our philosophy and how we approach things. And it's been immensely gratifying to be on this journey with you first as a guest and then now as someone who gets to do episodes, not just with you, but then explore ideas with guests that I bring on myself. So a lot of appreciation we would not be here if not for the support of those parties. And we feel excited about what the future holds. [00:52:46] Craig: Well, cool. I mean, best luck to you and the team. It's always great to see. I I've always enjoyed your philosophy around the transparency of what you're doing and your openness to have discussions with people. I think you've whether it's the thesis brand and I'm sure the logo brand, you have an openness for discussion with people who are considering the, the products and whether or not they choose your particular product. I think they'll understand your point of view and your commitment to providing and creating the product that you've arrived at in your mind. So kudos and congratulations. I look forward to continuing the journey with you. Obviously we'll have you back on the, for the listener, you'll be back on here for, into dared episodes in the future, and also doing deep technical dives around both bicycle componentry, but also the philosophies of community and, and general philosophy of what cycling brings to our collective lives. So good to talk to you as always Randall. I wasn't surprised that we went a little bit longer today, but hopefully the listener can give us a little a little bit of room there for enjoying our conversations together. [00:53:52] Randall: Yeah. And if anyone has any questions or comments please jump in the ridership in the logos channel or drop us an email. [00:53:59] Craig: Cool. Thanks Randall. [00:54:01] Randall: All right. Thanks Greg. [00:54:03] Craig Dalton: That's gonna do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you learned a little bit more about Randall's background and are excited to check out logo's components. I know you can learn a lot just simply from visiting the website. As I mentioned, they've got. Breakdown diagram of the hub, which I found very interesting. If you're curious about what a, a star ratchet looks like inside big thanks to our friends at hammerhead and the Caru two computer. Remember use the code, the gravel ride to get that free heart rate monitor with the purchase of your crew to computer. If you're interested in connecting with me or Randall to ask questions about this podcast or otherwise best way to do it is simply join the ridership. It's a free global cycling community. It's at www.theridership.com. You can interact with the two of us, but also more importantly, thousands of other athletes around the world to answer your questions and share your joy and share roots from around the world. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, you can visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride where ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated until next time here's defining some dirt under your wheels.

This week Craig and Randall continue the discussion on the considerations for Craig's custom gravel frame build. We dig into the history of Reach and Stack, the meaning of BB drop and how different materials afford different options and considerations for construction. Episode sponsor: Therabody RecoveryAir JetBoots Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: In the Dirt #29 [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to in the dirt from the gravel ride podcast. My name's Craig Dalton. I'm your host. And I'm going to be joined shortly by my cohost Randall Jacobs. In the, in the dirt episodes, Randall and I take an opportunity catch up on everything going on in gravel, cycling. Uh, Everything you need to know in between our long form interviews on the gravel ride podcast This week's broadcast is brought to you by thera body. You may remember thera body from the thera gun massage gun that really revolutionized recovery for gravel cyclists. But this week, we're here to talk to you about something completely next level. We're talking about their body's revolutionary new recovery air jet boots. If you're like me over the years, you've seen these pneumatic compression boots. Underneath pro cyclists after stages of the tour de france or big gravel events and i've always been curious what that experience would be like But every time I looked into them, they seemed not only expensive, but incredibly. Overbuilt, they're attached to sort of something that looked like a car battery. You had wires everywhere. It just seemed overly complicated. As you know, on the podcast, we've been talking about recovery quite a bit lately, and it's driven by my own personal need. I found as, as I get older as an athlete, I just can't recover as quickly. And I need to basically do everything I can to make sure my body's in tip top shape and able to get back out on the bike. So it was super curious when therapy body came out with the recovery air jet boots. It's quite a bit more affordable than the original pneumatic compression boots that were out on the market And in a form factor that can't be beat. Recovery, our jet boots of the world's most advanced pneumatic compression system ever created. For years runners and gravel, cyclists, and everyone who spends hours on their feet. Have had to suffer through leg pains and aches after a hard day. Clinically proven treatments like the compression boots per athletes have always been using, have always been out of reach. Recovery era is a groundbreaking pressure massage system for everybody. Anywhere. With their body's exclusive fast flush technology, recovery air flushes out metabolic waste more fully, and brings back fresh blood to your legs. Three times faster than the speed of competition. Faster cycles means faster recovery. So you don't have to wait for the legs to feel great. There are bodies. Recovery are jet boots are first of its kind. They're truly wireless for anywhere on the go recovery boosting circulation and radically reducing muscle soreness. And thanks to recovery are super intuitive, easy to use one touch controls. Recovering faster as .a breeze. I had a couple of recovery sessions with the jet boots already. And I'm trying to figure out what's the right way to describe it to the listener. You've got an individual boot on each leg that goes all the way up to your upper thigh. As the pneumatic air moves through each boot, you feel your leg kind of compressed tightly, like a nice massage. As it rolls through a process you can set through multiple time sessions, how long you want to be in the product, how long you have for recovery. But I got out of it after a 20 minute session and the legs felt good. So I'm looking forward to doing more punishing rides coming back and getting these jet boots on my body. To find out more, just visit thera body.com/the gravel ride. You can get thera body recovery air today starting at just $699. Or as low as $59 a month with a firm. Plus with recovery, our 60 day money back guarantee and free shipping. There's absolutely no risk to giving it a try at home. Again, that's their body.com/the gravel ride. Would that business out of the way, let's jump into this week's episode [00:03:46] Craig: Hey Randall, how you doing? [00:03:49] Randall: Well, a little bit under the weather here in Boston, but hopefully we'll be recovered before I head out your way in a couple of days. Are you? [00:03:57] Craig: to see you got to get over this cold. [00:03:59] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually hoping to see a lot of or at least a few of our listeners as well. We got Seattle coming up. [00:04:07] Craig: Yeah, that's a good place to start. Yeah, so we're, we're getting we're both of us are going to be at Seattle this year, which is exciting. I think we did sea Otter together two years ago. That's on, [00:04:16] Randall: Two or three years ago. Yeah. Whenever you know, and that, that, that innocent pre COVID era [00:04:23] Craig: That's [00:04:23] Randall: when I was still living in the bay area. [00:04:26] Craig: For the listener that may not be in the region or may not have heard of seawater. It's actually an event that's been going on in the Monterey bay peninsula area since 1991 mountain bike started out at because a mountain bike festival had added on road racing criteriums. They had a cyclocross race at one point observed trials. Like you name it. If it's done on two wheels, they've been doing it at the sea Otter classic for you. [00:04:53] Randall: it's also, become I believe the, the most important trade show in north America with the, you know, with the folding of the M oh, Interbike. Yeah. And in fact I've always felt that it was a much more enjoyable experience than Interbike because you have this kind of festival environment. So people are there. You have general audience general riders who were there to participate in the events and to, you know, meet up with each other and to walk around and see the booze and so much more you know, rider friendly and so on. So I'm excited to get out there. it's been a long time. [00:05:23] Craig: it's also really interesting to me to see the merging of all the different cycling cultures, because you've got a big downhill contingent and dual slalom contingent with their slam seats and 10 inch travel bikes and full face helmets. And then you've got like the Legion criterium squad rolling around doing the CRA you know, the circuit. [00:05:44] Randall: Yeah. and I, I'm not sure. I would imagine the, the UCI cross-country race is still going on there. That was the only time I ever lied up at a, at a UCI level race, which was a cool experience. So you get to see some of the international level pros. [00:05:58] Craig: Yep. Yeah. And it's it's right at the Laguna Saker Raceway. So it, some of the, I think a lot of the courses finish on the car racing, motorcycle racing track, which is kind of a cool. [00:06:09] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:10] Craig: Yeah. And this year they've added this is the kickoff of the lifetime grand Prix, which is a six or eight race series with a $250,000 prize. So I know a lot of professional athletes are sort of jazzed and keying in on this, and it's a, don't need to get into the series and I'll get someone from lifetime on to talk about it. If you haven't heard about it already. But what's interesting to me is they're doing mountain bike racing and gravel racing as part of the same series. So it's really, I, in my mind, ideally pushing athletes to have capabilities in both domains. [00:06:45] Randall: I mean, there does seem to be a very natural kind of merging of these two disciplines in that gravel bikes have gotten evermore capable. And cross-country bikes have actually gotten radically more capable to we've transitioned to down country. Cross country courses have gotten more technical. And so, you know, everything is kind of shifting a little bit. I certainly love the, the Mo the underbite mountain bike experience on the gravel bike. [00:07:07] Craig: they haven't made this rule, but I would kind of love it if they force the athletes to race one bike. So pick your poison, gravel bike on the CrossCountry courses, cross country bike on the gravel courses. You got to decide at the beginning of the season. [00:07:22] Randall: I mean, honestly, I remember I've done seawater twice and I remember one year they had the long course and on the long course, it was only one section that I recall. Even really requiring suspension. And so if I had had a gravel bike at the time, I probably would have crushed it. Everyone was riding flat bar, you know, suspended mountain bikes. And there was this one kind of breaking bump challengers section that I recall. And then the other year they had it such that it went through Laguna Saika like five or six times. They were trying to make it very spectator friendly. And in that case even more so, cause there's just, you know, you're spending so much time on the road that whatever time you lose on that, Slightly Chandra resection. You're more than making up for. [00:08:04] Craig: Yeah, that might've been my jam as well. Cause my Achilles heel was always climbing. I could never climb with the best of them. I'm a decent descender. So yeah, the gravel bike probably would have helped me stay closer to the front of those races. [00:08:16] Randall: so, and you're going to be doing the, the NV sponsored gravel ride on Saturday, right? [00:08:21] Craig: Yeah on Saturday. Yeah. So there's a couple for anybody in attendance. There's a few gravel like casual gravel rides, and there's also a gravel event on Sunday. So definitely bring your bike and enjoy some of that gravel. [00:08:36] Randall: So let's talk about the event that we're getting together. [00:08:39] Craig: Yeah. So we're excited. Yeah. We're going to get together the ridership community and the gravel ride podcast community and the thesis by community, along with our friends over at scratch. So scratch has got a booth and we'll get we'll. We're meeting up over there at 3:00 PM on Saturday, April 9th. [00:08:57] Randall: We'll probably be hanging out there for awhile. So if you can't get there right at three definitely stop by later the day, but we'll have some, some beverages, some music we'll have some special guests, a few athletes. The famed rice cake maker Allen Lim he was on the podcast before, [00:09:11] Craig: That's right. Dr. Alan Lamb, one of his threads of fame is rice cake cooker. [00:09:16] Randall: I think he also has been involved in training some, some elite athletes and he might've started scratch as well, but definitely rice cake makers probably is his biggest claim to fame there. And then we'll have a raffle and an exciting product line. Which I'll just leave it at that. At this point. Anyone who's in the ridership will probably know what I'm talking about here. Cause I've dropped a few hints there. But it'll be really excited to get the, do the first pre-launch reveal of this new line that we've been working on for some time. [00:09:42] Craig: Yeah, I'm excited for you to talk about that publicly as someone who's sort of been in the background, just hearing whispers of what you're doing, and then starting to hear more specifics from you directly. It's super exciting. And like, I appreciate how much you put into the space and how. I thought you put into these products that you bring to the world. [00:10:01] Randall: Thanks bud. Yeah. and I definitely feel grateful to have kind of the one, like the supportive a community. They provided an immense amount of very useful feedback in, in the development and validation process. And then also just really great team and business partners. And so on that we've been co-developing this with so more on this in future episodes. We'll do a one-on-one episode where we nerd out about how things are developed. But Yeah. come visit us at three o'clock on Saturday at the scratch labs with [00:10:29] Craig: Super excited to run into any listeners and ridership members out there really like it's I feel like it's been a long time coming for us to do a little get together and hopefully if trends continue, we can start doing some of the ridership group rides around the world. [00:10:44] Randall: Exactly. Yeah I'll be starting some in the new England area and I'm looking forward to flying out again to the bay area, to do a big event with you. Maybe sometime. [00:10:53] Craig: Yeah, that [00:10:53] Randall: Right around Mount mountain, where we used to ride together so much. [00:10:56] Craig: A hundred percent. So the last episode in the dirt, we were talking very specifically about a new custom bike project that I've been working on for the listener. Just to bring you up to speed. I got to fit in January and it's just started to highlight some of the things. Some of the challenges I've been having with my boss. In riding the bike, and this is not something new I've I sort of experienced this early on in my cycling career. And at one point I had a custom Brent Steelman road bike made for me. He's a pretty storied Northern California builder, probably best known for his cyclocross work. But anyway, I had the custom bike experience, but it was, it was kind of. At that time, the one thing that nagged me and I realize now that this is sort of not the right way to even be thinking about this particular problem, but every road bike I ever got in front of what's a 56, 56. So 56 CT of 56, top two. And the one thing that felt to me like it didn't fit well. Was that 56 top tube. So I said, Do whatever you want. I just want a 55 centimeter talked to, and it did solve the problem to a degree, but it wasn't really the solution to the problem, but it did feel amazing to get on that bike for the first time. [00:12:12] Randall: When you also kind of hearkening back to the days when, when we talked about, you know, seat tubes and top tubes as a primary you know, driver of, of frame fit, because they were always coming in at roughly the same angles versus nowadays they're coming in at all different sorts of angles with compact geos and so on. So, but the gist of like your bike was too long, you're, you're a pretty leggy guy. [00:12:34] Craig: So that's, that's really interesting. You say that. So was it not, not the fact that I'm a lucky guy and thanks for noticing that, but more about the sort of, are you saying the story of that geometry back in that era or where the tubes were coming in there just wasn't a lot of variability. So the concepts of stack and reach weren't necessarily in bike design for an Acular. [00:12:56] Randall: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So you'd generally the top tube would be, you know, relatively. And then, you know, at some point you started seeing more compact geos where that top tube is sloped and that had various various benefits in terms of stand over height and you know, potentially, you know, frame stiffness and so on. But it also meant that, you know, your seat tube and your top tube were not really particularly good proxies for how the bike would fit. And so we need a new proxy and that's where stacking reach came into play. [00:13:22] Craig: Okay. Yeah. And I mean, you can imagine like, obviously like with mountain bikes, having super slipping top tubes and all kinds of things like that, but stacking reach, like you had to come up with some sort of measurement that people could hang their hat on. [00:13:35] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So with the bike that, where we've designed for you now, I mean, you have, remind me you're just 5, 9, 5, 10. [00:13:44] Craig: Yeah. Just five, nine and a half. [00:13:46] Randall: Five nine and a half, and I'm five 11 and you and I run the same satellite and I run a pretty high and forward satellite too. And so you were on the medium our, our medium, I ride our, our large OB one. And one of the things that you, that, you know, I always noticed with you is you always had your, your stem. As high as possible and flipped upward and so on. And so this new build is going to really address, you know, first and foremost is stack issues. You've won a higher bar for some time. [00:14:13] Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that, that was the most sort of visceral. The thing I had after this fit. And it's something that was very, it was known to me and my body. Like I've, I've lost flexibility. I never had a ton of flexibility. And the fitter said, well, you've, you know, the position of your saddle height versus your bar height is that of a pro tour road cyclist. And I had this like, The eight millimeter drop or something, and he's like, we really want to get you more around four. So it was, it was interesting. And I encourage people to go back to episode 28, if you're interested. And I don't purport to believe that you care about my personal fit, but I'm trying to eat this out with Randall and both these two episodes, just to give the listener something to think about as they go forward in their cycling career, because there's, there's tons of things you can do around your existing bike to modify them. I came to some limitations because I'd already configured my thesis. I'd already cut the steer to buy the fork. I couldn't bring the bars up any further unless I had an obnoxious, jacked up stem. So I came to the conclusion. Hey, given this opportunity, why don't we, why don't I look at fabricating a bike specific to my needs? So we had episode 28, which is the last in the dirt episode, and we talked a little bit about bike geo calculator, and it was pretty easy. Like it's a great tool. And I saw lines where the new frame would be an and I looked at that, that stack height and the higher head tube, and I was like, great, this is going to fit. But then as we worked with the building, And got into CAD. There was all these things that have just taken a lot of time to muddle through. And part of it is fabricating with metal versus carbon. Part of it is like things that, all things aren't equal. You really have to think about what, what is your north star in the fit and work around that versus what is any particular tube length or dimension? [00:16:12] Randall: And then you have parts availability, right? So you want to achieve something, but the, you can't find a part that allows you to achieve it, even though it exists, it doesn't exist in the timeframe that you need it. [00:16:22] Craig: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. So I mean, a couple of the areas we've been keying in on, I mentioned, I think in the last episode, like I had this desire to be able to accommodate as big attire as possible. But then when, when you talk about the practicality of welding, the rear end, all of a sudden, a bunch of things come into play because you can have a really long stay to accommodate that. But I didn't really want a really long stay. I've been pretty darn comfortable on my last two bikes with a 420 20 millimeter seat stay. And like the idea of going out to 4 45 or something like that, just didn't sit well with me. [00:17:01] Randall: Yeah. For 20 chains day and yeah, and it just makes it so that the, the front end doesn't want to come up as much. It, you know, it slows the handling. It's a longer wheel base. But you know, it's appropriate to go. It can be appropriate to go longer for more of a dirt focus machine versus a, a, a one bike that is also being asked to be a spirited road bike. That's kind of the direction that we went with this thing. [00:17:23] Craig: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Like there comes a decision point in any gravel cyclist's life when you're purchasing a new book. To just think about like, where do you fall on that spectrum? And when I look at the writing, when I look at what I was conceiving of with my thesis, it's like, I want something that's Zippy on the road and super capable off-road, but can kind of slot that ground between. But the reality is, you know, my writing is 95% off road. [00:17:52] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you already have a thesis that you're you've. So this isn't adding to your stable. [00:17:59] Craig: Exactly the thesis isn't going anywhere. So while this bike may, the new bike may rarely get road tires on it. The thesis will have both road. And I still think that thesis is an amazing, like race, bike, and it's been so good for me. It's so capable. I'm excited to have, I mean, it's just an absolute luxury to be able to have two bikes and like in the garage, [00:18:19] Randall: Yeah. but the, the added capability of this new machine is, is definitely going to be you know, meaningful like that extra tire clearance. So maybe we start there. So this tire clearance for like full tire clearance. So at least six millimeters all around for 60, 50 by two points. Front and rear, and you could probably squeeze something a little bit bigger upfront. We were fortunate in that we were able to find a fork that had the offset that we wanted specifically. We reached out to dry broom and over it open cycle and he had some U-turn forks kicking around. So that's a 50 mil offset and also a 3 95 axle, the crown. So just throwing numbers out there. What does this mean, Zack? So the CR offset is. Basically the distance from the axle from the, the line that goes through the steer tube. So it's going to be offset, you know, the axle is offset forward from that, and more offset is going to make the steering more responsive, but it's also going to increase your, your front center, the bottom bracket to the front axle to reduce risk of total. And that was, that was a concern, given that your you're wanting a shorter bike, that's fitting bigger 700 seat tires. [00:19:32] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And it also, so that does wheelbase come into play with those dimensions as well? The overall wheel base. [00:19:38] Randall: Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, the, the well, so with the offset, so we had the increased offset which. With the same head angle, as you increase offset, it's going to decrease trail and you know, the, the less trail you have, the snappier, the handling is that in turn allowed us to slack it out the head angle a little bit without radically slowing down the handling. So we went from a 72 degree head angle on your thesis, which is more of a, like an endurance road in a more kind of racy. Gravel front-end to a 71.2, which is still actually on the sportier side especially for this new class of gravel bikes that have seemingly gone towards, you know, even slacker even longer. And overall we got the, the front center up, you know, 18 millimeters. And so those. Taller 700 C tires that you might run are not going to be an, an issue for you in terms of tow overlap. You're also going with 2.5 millimeter shorter cranks, which helps as well. And that, that opened up another opportunity with the bottom bracket height. [00:20:42] Craig: Yeah. So before we get into BB height, you know, it was interesting. Really digging into the forks situation. Again, a lot of times you're bike. Well, all the time your bike comes with a fork and you don't really think about all these things, but once we were looking at, Hey, what fork partner can we bring into the mix? All of a sudden, a lot of variables came into play in terms of like the rake of the bike or the rank of the fork, like all of these different things. We started having to consider. And what was the effect on tau overlap? What was the effect on like what ties size tire are they designed on accommodating? So is it really like, I don't know, a sink of like a week to figure out a, what do we want? And B who actually manufacturers a fork that has those correct dementia. [00:21:29] Randall: And that we can get in a reasonable timeframe. [00:21:31] Craig: yeah. And then to, to further that, you know, everybody knows I'm suspension curious, I've got one bike in the garage right now with the front suspension fork on it, from my friends at RockShox. And I do imagine playing around with that, on this bike, but as we've spoken about previously, probably in an, in the dirt episode, and certainly when I dug into it with our friends at rock shock and Schramm, you know, if you put one of these suspension forks on the bike, it's going to bring the entire bike up because that 30 to 40 millimeters of travel has got to come from somewhere. So we had to think through, okay, if we have a 3 95 axle, the crown length of the rigid. What happens when that's four 20. [00:22:14] Randall: Yeah. Or 4 25 in the case of the RockShox fork. And then they have two different offsets. And what we came to is, well, You know, that 30 millimeter of difference means that your front end is going to come up. Right. And so to get the same exact position, you'd have to, you know, shift your saddle forward and you would have to, you know, adjust your stem height and so on. Or you could just make it so that you know, your, your position. In with the rigid fork is a little bit more aggressive. And then you're just, you know, allowing that, that slightly more you know, lean back position, slightly more upright position when you have the fork and in terms of the handling characteristics and so on, they actually change the position. Characteristics change in a way that is appropriate for a bike, with the added capability of a short travel suspension fork. And so it's, it's kind of, you know, not really a problem. And we ha we don't have a, an adjustable suspension, sorry. We don't have an adjustable geometry with that rigid fork, which is something I'm a big fan of, but we're getting adjustable geo with the swapping of the forks in your case. And we designed accordingly. [00:23:20] Craig: Yeah, it's super interesting. And going back to my conversation with Chris Mandel from SRE. He said the same thing. Like it was, it was really early on. They had literally just launched that FOC that fork. And I was able to spend some time on it before the launch. And he said, you know, I put this on a bike that wasn't specifically geo corrected, but I felt like it was okay. He's like I've spent months and months and months on this thing. And it just modified the geometry in a way that made sense for the new way that I was going to be riding the bike with a suspension for. [00:23:52] Randall: Yeah. And you know, you, it is useful if you're considering adding a suspension fork to your existing bike, to say, throw it, throw it in a tool like bike geo calc. So take your current geometry for your bike and put it into that, that tool and then set the settings so that the frame rotates when you change the axle, the crown and it'll tell you how the other parameters change and that can also inf not only inform you in terms of how. How the geo would change, but then also how the handling might change, which would help you decide, say what fork offset you want, because you know, RockShox offers two different offsets on those forks. [00:24:27] Craig: Yep. Yeah. And I'll have plenty of room on the steer tube, as well as the ability to flip my stem, to make adjustments accommodating that, to get the position. Right. And again, just make, make that, that Delta between 3 95 and 4 25. Feel the slider than it actually is. [00:24:48] Randall: Well, and it's, it's small enough where I do think that it's quite likely that you can get a slightly more aggressive, but still upright position with a rigid fork and then a slightly less aggressive, more upright position with the suspension fork that, you know, feels good in both of those different applications and feels appropriate for those. So I don't suspect that you're going it's. I don't think it's highly likely that you're going to need to move around much. And this actually gets into a conversation I'm looking forward to having with Lee McCormick at some point when we bring them on the podcast, which is, you know, talking about how, you know, we've talked about stack and reach and how these are really important measurements for determining fit. But it in turn in as a rider, like the big thing that matters is like the distance from your crank spindle to where your hand. And then you have an, you know, an anchor, so that high pot news between, you know, the, the stack figure to the grips and the reach figure to the grips, the high pot news is actually the, the, the pure number. And then the angle associated with that that high pot news. But that, that the length of that hypotony is actually shouldn't change from bike to bike. So whether it's a road bike or a mountain biker, so on, it should be consistent. And then it's the angle of that that. From bike to bike. And so if you think about, you know, the front end coming up well, that, that, that distance is staying the same. It's just the angle. That's increasing a little bit. [00:26:08] Craig: Right. Yep. Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, I love, I love most of my bikes are set up identically, so that basically, if I have my eyes closed, I know exactly where to fall and hit the bar. And it's so great that my like mountain bike and rode by can feel like that same position. [00:26:25] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. And even better, if you can get, say the same crank lengths on the bikes, the same, you know, pedal positioning, you know, stance in the, like on the bikes. [00:26:35] Craig: Yeah. I'm sure I'm a little bit a field from that, but this is the most bike geekery by the way that I've ever gone through. And it's, I mean, part of it's been driving me mad cause I really want to consummate this Ram and say the design's done. And I do think like if, if we're not at the finish line today, we're in the, we're in the final sprint, we've seen the and where we're coming to the finish line. Thank God. But a couple of other things I wanted to just quiz you on before we get to that point. So there was also the question about BB drop and it was another one that was like BB drop. I've never thought about that. Just allowed the frame of the production frame, builder to think about that. But now that we have to consider it and we could do whatever we wanted, let's talk about the movement on that. And what's the rationale and just, what's the takeaway for the listener at Ron BB drop. [00:27:28] Randall: Yeah. So Bebe, you can think of BB drop as you have the, the vertical distance between the height of the axles and the height of the bottom bracket. The center of the bottom bracket spindle. So the bottom bracket spindle is going to be below the two axles, right? And the greater the more below the two axles it is you know, ceteris paribus, the more stable the bike is going to be the more sitting into the bike. You're going to be. [00:27:54] Craig: to sort of visualize that if I'm, if I'm sort of the listener and I'm thinking about my bike, I've got my two axles on my wheels. And I'm thinking about how far below that axle line, the bottom bracket sits. [00:28:06] Randall: Exactly. Exactly. And So, with like old schools, cyclocross geometries, the bottom, the BB drop tended to be pretty high, you know, 65 versus a, you know, your thesis will be one to 73. And your OB one only accommodates up to a 700 by 40 tire, but it's really optimized around 700 by 30 and 60 50 by 47, which is like a 700 by 28. And so, you know, it's, there's, it's you get more stability, but there's greater risk of pedal strikes as you drop the baby. Now with your new bike, you know, we started with your, your thesis as like a starting point. Cause he really liked that geometry and we saw, well, you're going to be optimizing this bike for running with bigger and thus taller tires, a bigger radius from the center of the, the axle to the outside of the tire. And so you can you can drop the BB further and get that added stability without increasing risk of pedal strikes. And in fact we also went with a 2.5 millimeters shorter crank. And so you're actually going to have more clearance above the ground with those bigger tires, even though we dropped the BB down to improve stability. So you know, that that was kind of a very natural thing. And you see this trend in general on this newer slate of gravel bikes that are being optimized for higher volume 700 tires versus the more one bike type bikes like the thesis or the the Sabelo Sparrow. That are designed to be used effectively with road, you know, seven up to 700 by 30, which is, you know, a smaller radius [00:29:37] Craig: So, does it feel like you're sort of sitting more in the bike when you have more BB drop? [00:29:42] Randall: exactly. Versus on top of it. [00:29:44] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you were saying about cyclocross bikes having a 65 millimeter drop, presumably that's because they're doing a lot of things that require clearance, bunny hopping barriers and things like that. [00:29:57] Randall: Yeah. Concerns about, you know, pedal strikes, essentially as they're going over different obstacles though, even those bikes with the advent of gravel, you've seen those bottom brackets come down because there's no reason. I mean, I would argue there's no reason to have a dedicated cyclocross bike, unless you're, I mean, even if you're an elite cyclocross athlete, you can still ride on take this specialized crux as an example, that bike fits six 50 by 40. Right. So it's not constrained to the 700 by what, 33, that the UCI maxes out cyclocross tires for. So even that bike is, is, is really a gravel bike that, that people are, are using in that discipline. So it doesn't need a dedicated bike anymore. So those are the days of high bottom brackets is have thankfully gone away [00:30:45] Craig: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yep. Certainly no reason for the average athlete to own a dedicated cyclocross bike. If you've got a gravel bike in the closet, [00:30:53] Randall: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:30:55] Craig: the other thing we had to consider was just cable routing as well. And again, this is like, Maybe on a carbon bike, you make a couple ports and you know how to seal them pretty easily. And if you use them, you use them. If you don't, you don't. But when you're talking about a metal bike, all of a sudden you you've got okay, either I'm going to externally route everything, which I don't like the look of, and that seems old school, or I'm going to actually have to drill and sort of weld holes into various parts of the frame. And that was again, Another consideration. Well, what, what am I going to do? Am I going to commit to wireless? Which is like a very viable option these days? Or am I going to get, you know, have four different ports drilled into this frame? And I opted to go the wireless route. [00:31:44] Randall: Yeah. And I think that that was a smart way to go. The, you know, especially if you're already going the, you already kind of, unless you're going to do external cabling, internal cabling on say like a steel or titanium bike. Is going to be such that, like, you're going to have some sharp angles going through the frame, especially, you know, where that down tube is meeting the bottom bracket shell, you know, you don't have these big, these big tubes and these big open spaces, like you can mold into a carbon frame. And so there's going to be sharp angles. There's going to be sharp surfaces that need to be machined. It's just harder to do. It's really hard to do good, clean mechanical routing internally through a metal frame, unless it's say something like a specialized, smart weld aluminum frame where they're hydro-forming those, those tubes to get a more carbon shape. [00:32:35] Craig: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And when you consider adding in, which was a necessity for me, a dropper post yet another whole, yet more routing. So yeah, I'm committing to going full wireless, including the dropper. On this bike. So I'll, I'll just have the rear brake cable routed through the frame and that's it. [00:32:54] Randall: Yeah. I think too, that's going to, I mean, given that this is your adventure bike it's just that much less to deal with as well when you're taking the bike apart to throw in your case to bring on a plane. So I think that wireless can make sense. Just bring an extra battery. [00:33:09] Craig: Yeah, a hundred percent. My my contact at SRAM, I went riding with him on Tam gosh, probably four or five months ago at this point. And his battery ran out, but he keeps a spare in his seat bag. [00:33:23] Randall: Yeah. And if you're going with a one by set up too, like you have those two coin cells, which are very lightweight and the leavers. So if one of them dies, he still got the other one. You could swap it over. [00:33:32] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. The cool thing about their RockShox C posts is that you can steal the battery pack from there and use it in your derailer if you need to, because they're all, they're all changeable not to, not to have [00:33:44] Randall: they have to make, well, then you have to make the difficult decision of like, do I care about gearing or the dropper post more? I guess it depends on the terrain. There are some cases where I would, I would sacrifice the derail, your battery to keep the dropper post going. [00:33:57] Craig: Yeah. who knows if I was at the top of Tam, you know, if I was riding up, switch the battery to have gears on the way up and then switch it to the dropper on the way to. [00:34:06] Randall: Yeah. [00:34:09] Craig: I love it. You just made me think about, I literally just packed my thesis in my post carry bag for an air flight tomorrow. And there's always a little bit of Jenga with the cables to kind of move everything around and get it in their bag. So well-designed and fortunately with my these medium thesis, I can just slam the seat. I don't even have to take the seed out and get it all in that bag. Hopefully continue to allude all airline fee. [00:34:36] Randall: Excellent. I'm [00:34:38] Craig: you for walking me. Yeah, no, I think we've covered a good deal about the frame between this episode and the last episode. And again, I hope this conversation gives you a little bit of inside baseball about how frames are designed. If. Looking to get accustomed frame done. It's important to have a builder who's willing to work with you. And in my case, just being someone who's just not in the weeds on all these minute dimensions and angles, just someone who's patient and will walk you through what needs to be done. I'm lucky to have both the builder and Randall to help me out. [00:35:13] Randall: Yeah, it's it definitely you know, the value of working with a good bow builder in, in significant part comes on the front end and really trying to dial exactly what you want and, And you know, having that output down the other end. So. [00:35:28] Craig: as I, as I think about your journey with thesis and the idea of designing, was it five frame sizes? [00:35:35] Randall: Well, so in our case, we went with we went with an open, we went with an open mold frame and then made modifications from there. So we use the existing tooling. So we were fortunate to be able to find a frame with, you know, the vast majority of the features we wanted and the exact geometry we wanted. And then we added the features and reinforcements from there. So with the next gen frame beginning development of this is this is a ways out that'll be a full ground up exercise. [00:36:03] Craig: Yeah. it's just, I imagine it's so challenging to sort of figure out the sizes. Obviously you're matching what the market trends are in terms of how the bikes are performing and what they're intended for, but just like the basics around stack and reach to try to find those sweet spots, to make sure with the limited amount of customability customizability, I E you know, you're stem lab. The your stack above the head tube making that fit as many people as possible. It's just seems to be a challenge. [00:36:35] Randall: Yeah, And it's, it's even more so with a material like carbon where you're, you know, essentially you're, you're creating these molds that are quite expensive. And then that's set in stone. If you want to evolve your metal, a tube to tube constructed frames, geometry over time. You know that that's it. You just change the jig and you change the mitering specifications and you're good to go. Carbon it's a whole new tool, so you better get it right out the gate. [00:37:01] Craig: so true. Well, thanks for all the time, my friend, this coming weekend, hopefully I know I'll be seeing you and hopefully we'll be seeing a bunch of listeners over there at at [00:37:11] Randall: sea Otter three o'clock on Saturday at the scratch labs booth. [00:37:15] Craig: Yeah, we'll see you there. [00:37:17] Randall: All right. Hope to see some folks there. [00:37:19] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of in the dirt, from the gravel ride podcast. Thank you for spending a little bit of your week with us. If you're going to be at CR definitely come find us at the scratch labs booth at 3:00 PM on Saturday. Huge. Thanks to thera body for sponsoring this episode, please visit thera body.com/the gravel ride for that special offer around the recovery air.Jet boots. If you have any feedback for Randall or myself, feel free to visit us at the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. And if you're interested in supporting the podcast, please head over to buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels

This week we sit down with Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist, Kurt Roeser from Ability Physical Therapy in Colorado to discuss recovery strategies for gravel cyclists. We dig into the things we can be doing at home to recovery faster along with the various products that have recently been developed to aid recovery.  Episode Sponsor: The Feed Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Kurt Roeser - Recovery [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. So as we start out this week, let me ask you a question when you're done with a ride. What's next? Do you just hang up the cleats, put the bike away and go onto the next thing, Or do you take a moment for self care? If you're like me, it's often onto the next thing with Naria thought for what? I just put my body through. This week's guest is Kurt. Roser. A board certified orthopedic specialist and physical therapist at ability physical therapy . Kurt is an experienced distance runner and cyclist. And brings a wealth of experience to the field of recovery. Before we jump into this week, shall I need to say a big thank you to this week, sponsor the feed. The feed is the largest online marketplace for your sports nutrition, Offering the brands, you know, and love from scratch lab to cliff. Plus their athlete customized supplements called feed formulas. I can say, what I appreciate about the feed is that they've got all the brands that I've come to count on as a gravel cyclist. I can't tell you how many times I go to the grocery store and try to pick up something, but it never does the trick. I'm just not getting the diversity of brands that are cycling specific and that's where the feed comes in. I can get whatever I want whenever I want. I talked a little bit about the feed formulas last week, but I want to drill into it a little bit more. As I've been consuming them on a daily basis. Feed formulas are personalized supplements for athletes developed in part with Dr. Kevin Sprouse. Dr. Sprouse is probably best known in cycling circles for his work, with the EDF pro cycling team as team doctor, he follows the same protocols he uses for top pro athletes to develop the feed formulas. And the feed has made them customizable and available to you. You can shop@thefeed.com slash the gravel ride and save 50% off your first order. When you visit the feed.com, you can get personalized recommendation based on your needs as an athlete. The feed formula comes into convenient daily pouch. So no more Massey bottles on the counter. Everything you need is in a simple packet for you to consume every day. Remember simply visit the feed.com/the gravel ride and get 50% off your first order of the feed formula With that said let's dive right into this week show. [00:02:42] Craig: Hey, Kurt, welcome to the show. [00:02:45] Kurt: Hey, Craig, how's it going? Thanks for having me, [00:02:47] Craig: Yeah, it's going great. I'm excited to dig into this conversation about recovery. I feel like half these podcasts are guided by my own personal interests. So I just hope the the listener likes to join me on this journey. [00:02:59] Kurt: for sure. Yeah. So it is all about learning, learning for yourself and helping some, some other folks at the same time. [00:03:05] Craig: Yeah, exactly. I'm appreciate you giving me the time to pick your brain. Let's start off with a little bit about just your background and how you got into your profession. And then we'll, we'll dig into some questions. [00:03:15] Kurt: Yeah, definitely. So I kind of grew up being a, being a distance runner. I ran college it in track at the university of Florida. And then like a lot of runners, I got injured a lot. So, I w me to want to be a PT. And then when I was in PT school, I got into cycling a lot and some triathlons. And so, yeah, kind of developed a, just broader enjoyment for endurance sports in general. Yeah, so now I, I am a physical therapist working in an outpatient setting and work a lot with runners and other endurance folks whether it's cyclists or, or skiers all, all sorts of fun stuff, just kind of helping people get back out there. And then, yeah, I still like to run like competitively. So, my marathon vest is a two 17, so I got to run in the. USAA marathon trials a couple of years ago. So hoping to get a couple more good marathons and in me, and then just a transition to more, just fun, fun diverse stuff more biking and, and all that good stuff. So, [00:04:13] Craig: Nice. I imagine being in Colorado, you've got no shortage of patients bringing their bodies in damaged from the great outdoors and their endurance athletic pursuits. [00:04:24] Kurt: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Overuse injuries. And then I mean, cycling tons of yeah. Impact injuries, falling, you know, shoulder stuff. Yeah. There's a, there's lots of good ways to hurt yourself doing fun things here. So, it is yeah, good for good for me. But I think I like to think I do more good than I take away from society, so, but [00:04:44] Craig: I imagine if you're getting people back out on the trails and the, and the the slopes, you're doing a service to the citizens of Colorado. [00:04:51] Kurt: Yeah. And it's, it's, it is really fun for me to like help people that are motivated to get back to doing you know, whatever their activity is or sport it is. And if, yeah, people really love doing something they're super motivated to do their, do their PT whether it's coming in for manual therapy or do their exercises or strengthening or, or whatever it is. Yeah, so it's a, it's a fun place to practice for me, for sure. [00:05:14] Craig: I wanted to open up a conversation about recovery from bike rides. I mean, we all, every listener of this podcast, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of listeners are doing big gravel events, a hundred mile gravel events, or the training for those types of events. And every single one of us has come home, had a little food and then had our legs start to get really solid and heavy. And I just thought it'd be. To talk to someone, a professional and understand what's actually going on. And then later in the conversation, let's talk about what we can be doing about it. [00:05:46] Kurt: Totally. Yeah, That's something that like, Everybody is going to encounter encounter soreness. And yeah, it's such a, it's kind of like a hot topic, like recovery. I feel like the past, you know, five to 10 years is getting a lot more spotlight and we see what the pros are doing in various sports. And I think we all are. You know, here are the best ways to optimize their own training and lifestyle and stuff. So, yeah, it's a, it's a really kind of hot topic now, but basically like the physiologic, like kind of like process of, of soreness is a very normal response to kind of a newer type of exercise that you're doing. Or maybe not a new type of exercise, but an increasing training load. So, we see this in the early parts of summer where people haven't. Biking a lot, or haven't been doing whatever their sport is in particular, but then you start doing a lot more of it. And even though we think we're being pretty like gradual with it where you usually are, our mind is biting off more than our body can choose. So to speak. So soreness is just a result of doing something that you're not used to, and then your body's adapting to it. And in that, in that process, you're going to feel some, feel some soreness. And one of the interesting things that I always remember from exercise physiology, class, the professor saying like the only way to prevent muscle soreness is previous exposure to the same stimulus. So you can't ever prevent yourself from, from getting sore, but you can just kind of like expect to get sore when you do something hard for the first time or, you know, bike longer than you have in awhile. And then know that like, if you do that same thing again, you're not going to be as sore from it. Kind of like an up and down process. [00:07:24] Craig: that makes sense. You know, if I think about my, any given week, you know, I can go out and do an hour long training ride and, and. 1200 feet of climbing and don't feel sore at all from that kind of effort. But when I get out on the weekends and I add, you know, five, six times that amount of climbing, those are the days in which I come home, but I know from experience over time, if I'm training for an event, if I've gradually built, I can then go out and ride, you know, 4,000 foot of climbing ride and not be sore and save that soreness for the 8,000 feet climbing. [00:07:58] Kurt: totally. Yeah. And I also want it to differentiate between like, muscle soreness and then like tendon or joint soreness. Cause that's a really common thing that people ask about is, and. And how to differentiate that from like an So like, I think delayed onset muscle soreness who are all like pretty familiar with like, you do something hard and then you're sore from it for a couple of days. So that processes partly. Kind of like mechanical at the cellular level. So, you're actually getting some microtrauma to the cells that are causing your muscle fibers to contract upon one another, basically these sliding filaments. So you actually like creating some micro tears in those, those fibers, which sounds bad, but it's it's. Body knows to adapt to that stimulus. So if we didn't have that, we wouldn't have that positive adaptation that we're looking for so that we get faster, it can bike like longer or, or whatnot. [00:08:53] Craig: Now the terror is getting repaired by the body as you rest. [00:08:58] Kurt: absolutely. So, so when we perceive soreness and when we feel soreness, Definitely linked to some sort of like inflammatory process, which there, we used to always think inflammation is bad. We got to get rid of it, but it's actually like the way that our body signals to bring in like, you know, new protein and all these like building blocks to repair that tissue. So, soreness is actually like a sign that our body is adapting to that and it just is uncomfortable in a transient manner for us, but it's how our body. You know, working through that cascade of that inflammatory process and ultimately getting stronger from it. So that's kind of like the more mechanical aspect of it. And then there's also like a, kind of more of a chemical side of it. So like we've all heard the term like lactic acid or more correctly just lactate and hydrogen ions. Like when you're doing really high intensity exercise, your muscles get more acidic. And so that can not can create some of that soreness feeling afterwards, just from those metabolites being. in, in ourselves, in places that they aren't normally there. So, so that's kind of the two big components of, of muscle soreness and, and some of the things that we can like know about and, work through mentally, but also there's some tools that we can use and and things that we can do to kind of try to limit that and speed it up a little bit. [00:10:15] Craig: Did, did the muscle groups react differently when you're doing short, intense intervals versus longer endurance type? [00:10:24] Kurt: Yeah, so definitely. So, the shorter height, higher intensity efforts are going to be the things that really get the you know, lactate and hydrogen ions, like, to high levels in your muscles and probably in fairly specific places. So, if you're really pushing, pushing the power, you're going to feel it in those. Muscles that year quads, maybe your calves, if you're, if you're going uphill. So you're going to feel that in pretty isolated ways versus like a one. Kind of like easier day where you're just out kind of cruising around, but maybe you're out for a long period of time. Then I think people are going to be more likely to get soreness in more of like your postural muscles. So your shoulders, your neck, your back, your arms, like things that are like supporting your, your posture. And, I've heard on the, on the show, you've talked numerous times about like bike fitting. And so that's where. Being comfortable and being set up nice on your bike is really important to make sure that you're just kind of like optimally using those, those postural muscles and not overstressing certain areas and just kind of setting yourself up to be comfortable and enjoy your Injury arrive, which is probably the most important thing. But then I think where people get the most sore is. Kind of kind of those race situations or group rides where you're going for a long time and at a higher intensity than you're used to. And I think that's what a lot of us kind of do. We're kind of in that maybe weekend warrior sort of a, a situation where we're doing maybe an hour during the week, and then maybe double that Triple that on the weekend and more Verdun. So th that's when you're going to get just globally sore and a lot of your, your cycling muscles and that's going to be from that kind of acidosis and mechanical breakdown. And then just as you fatigue out your, your slower Twitch fibers, you're gonna start to rely on the fast Twitch fibers that aren't used to working as much, and they're gonna fit. Faster and get more sore because they're just not used to working, but again, part of like a broader, good adaptation process I think so kind of that good soreness. [00:12:23] Craig: Yeah, well, first off, guilty as charged. I'm often one of those people who goes out and tries to do things I have no business doing. I think that's a bit of the gravel cycling mentality, right? Is this like, you're going to have a lot of challenges in front of you and these long events, and you're going to push through it. When, when a rider is taking themselves beyond, let's just call it their, their fitness or what they've been able to train to for a particular event. What kind of damage is being done at that point to the body. And does the body just sort of naturally give you the feedback? I mean, we've all sort of shut down on a climb or cramped in a long event and the body's screaming at you. Hey, you can't do this. You need to take a break. Can you just talk about like what what's going on in the body at that point and how should we be reacting? Obviously, we, we have strong mental desire to complete the events, but that may exceed what our bodies are capable of at that point. [00:13:18] Kurt: Yeah. So that's, that's really hard hard spot as a, as an athlete to be in, I think. And, and I think it's really important to know that like when you're feeling that like, subjective. Discomfort or like, you know, muscle work or just overall fatigue setting in like that's our, our brain is trying to tell us that we're doing something that we are, is like kind of outside of what our brain perceives we can do. But. Very, it's almost impossible to exercise yourself to death or to actually do any damage to any, to your tissue. So that's one thing that we should be very confident that we're not going to damage our, our muscles by cycling for, even for a long period of time at a very high intensity. In other sports, like, you know, like CrossFit or an ultra running, like you hear people getting robbed in my analysis, which is where you're doing so much damage to your muscles, that it that those muscle proteins get back into your. Bloodstream, and then eventually to your kidneys, and you're basically creating like kidney failure, which is a medical emergency, and that does happen. And I've seen it in CrossFitters and ultra marathoners, but kind of more from that centric type of loading reaction. So in, in cycling, you're, you're, I've never heard of that happening in cycling. So, Yeah. so we can be pretty confident that we're not going to really truly like damage anything per se. But it should be. One of those things, like a pick, choose your battles, you know, or like live to fight another day. So, and I think that's, it means different things to different people, but if, if it's worth it to, to really push it during this particular race, like just know that you're going to be really sore for for a few days. And it's gonna like, kinda mess with your next week of training, but ultimately you're going to be fine from it and you're going to adapt to it. So. [00:15:04] Craig: Yeah. I think if I think back to my iron man days, I can remember just basically not being able to walk down the stairs after doing an iron man, having to hold on the railing because I just, I couldn't support my body weight going down. [00:15:17] Kurt: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, so it's but I guess maybe better answer your question. Like, like there's no point in like that we should ever be worried. Push ourselves too hard under most circumstances, obviously like within like reason. But like at the end of the day, like we just got to remember like we're out there to have fun and and keep the bigger picture in, in in mind too. And like, you could have the perfectly designed training program and ramp up very gradually and you're still going to do stuff that's going to make you sore. So yeah, it's kind of a unavoidable. [00:15:49] Craig: How should riders think about it? So let's say you go for a massive ride on Saturday and you still want to ride on Sunday. And you're obviously you're waking up sore a little damaged from the day before. Any concerns going out the next day or does the body just tend to give you the information you need and regulate your abilities based on that soreness? [00:16:10] Kurt: Yeah, so. It's definitely gonna be good for you to go out and still get a ride in the next day. Like a nice like recovery ride. So obviously like back-to-back hard days are going to be challenging and you're just going to accumulate more fatigue essentially. But but yeah, it's definitely like good for you to get out and get some easy, easy spinning in and probably even help you recover faster. So, there's yeah, there's a reason that like, And during sports, like we're able to do it on like most days. And it's because. In between those harder efforts, like it's really good for you to like, just have a, have an easy recovery day. So, so Yeah. that's definitely, definitely good. And another really interesting thing is like, even if you, your quads are wrecked and you've like, we did like, some imaging and we saw that, like you had all these. Tears in your microfibers. Like you're not going to make that any worse by by pedaling through it the following day, you're just going to have less power output. So you're, you're not going to be able to like, you know, work as hard as you, as you would if you didn't have it, but you're not going to do anything bad by any means. So, definitely good to get moving. [00:17:13] Craig: Yeah, that makes sense. I often feel like, you know, if I do a really massive day, I, I sort of, I call it the athletic hangover or the next day I've and I think it's probably part dehydration, but the body's sore. I ended up with a headache. You know, it's just, just overdid it. [00:17:28] Kurt: Yeah, totally. And that's Yeah, that's like a bigger thing that like I realize With people more and more recently, it's like, you know, I always think about like the physical side of things, like orthopedically, like, you know, muscle muscles and joints and tendons and all that stuff. But like our body's pretty good at telling us, so like how it's doing. So if we can like learn to suck to listen to the more like subtle signs that our body's telling us, like, can we get better over the years of, of listening to that? Like in it help you maybe adjust. Your workouts that you had planned for that weekend and still go out and, and ride, but just like, like, oh man, I'm just not feeling very good today. I'm feeling a little off. So I'm just going to take it easy or I'm going to still do my, the intervals that I had planned, but just like dial it back a little bit. So yeah, just like successful athletes and people that have better longevity in, in, in the sport. Or people that are good kind of that like listening to those more subtle signs is what I've found with working with, with people at like pretty elite levels. so [00:18:27] Craig: we're at we're, we're certainly in the heyday of the ability to, to have to have data points to back that up as well. You know, whether it's a device measuring your HRV or just basic heart rate tracking, I think you can really know a lot about yourself and unlike the athletes, maybe of the, of the nineties who might push through it now, I think most coaches are saying, you know, it's better to back off and understand that you've just pushed it too far and live to fight another day, rather than pushing through the training. If your body's saying, Hey, this is a hard note today. [00:19:00] Kurt: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Just keep the consistency, like over time approach and, and know that like what you're doing like this week, you'll be better for like, you know, three months down the, down the road, like everything is just like compounds on itself. So just like keeping, keeping that consistency and that long-term approach, you know, weeks and months and years. And. And eventually you'll be able to do, do more than you thought you'd be able to do. So. [00:19:25] Craig: Yeah, you were, you were mentioning sort of there's muscle store, Innes and fatigue, and then there's a fine line between that next stage of actual injury. Are there things that we should be looking out for to know, like, Hey, we've maybe crossed the line and we need to pay a little bit more attention to what's going on. [00:19:42] Kurt: So I think anything. Well, like pain-wise like in, in muscles or tendons or joint, like, you know, anything that's transitioning towards like a sharp pain or like a nervy sort of sensation where it's numbness or tingling or anything that just like is getting worse as you're going from a pain perspective. Yeah. Like it's you want to like, not push through too much of that. So we like four out of 10 on a, just a pain, visual, analog scale is a good kind of cutoff. Like, so if you're, if you're doing something and it's like, you're like a four out of 10 or it's pain, that's like not really tolerable or getting worse than it's usually like a good idea to like, you know, shut it down. Or Go easier and kind of make your way, make your way home. and then, you know, there are like more like medical emergencies. Like rhabdomyolysis that I mentioned like that people are, you're going to notice, like, basically, like you will be completely, like, you'll be unable to go on. And like, people like collapse and it's like an ambulance call. So obviously like using common sense about that or like anything like with your heart just Yeah, [00:20:50] Craig: Yeah, [00:20:51] Kurt: pay attention to your vital, your vitals. If your apple watch tells you you're having a heart attack, then you should probably call an ambulance. [00:20:59] Craig: yeah, exactly. Don't use your pigheaded endurance athlete mentality to power through absolutely everything. Just some of the hard stuff. [00:21:06] Kurt: Yeah, exactly. [00:21:07] Craig: Transitioning a little bit. Now we've talked a little bit about, you know, what's happening post ride, if we're sore and, and what to look out for in terms of injury, are there things we should be doing before we get on the bike that would help our muscles that day and, and after the ride. [00:21:24] Kurt: Yeah. So, I think this is kind of like big picture stuff. Like the, the things that we can consistently do over over time to help in a preventative way are kind of like just nailing down the basics that I think we all probably like know about, but like, you know, diet and sleep and overall life stress. Yeah, like making sure that your nutrition before, before rides and during rides and after rides is, is, is good and adequate. And then making sure that your, your bike set up is good. Your bike fit is good. So in terms of specifically like pre pre ride like. just making sure that you've got enough fuel and hydration. And like my kind of preference for a warmup is just do the activity pretty easily for the first, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes. So, I'm somebody that like, I, I like to just, you know, get out and start going pretty, pretty easily and let my body warm up that way. Sometimes people will prefer more of like a dynamic warmup. So maybe you spend five minutes doing some, some stretches for parts that, you know, are tight hamstrings or quads or hip flexors or, or back. So a little bit of dynamic stretching is probably a really good idea, but but yeah, [00:22:36] Craig: Yeah, I spoke to some about that dynamic stretching idea. Just the idea of doing a few, few motions to get your body kind of understanding what's going to come when you throw a leg over the bike. [00:22:47] Kurt: Totally. And then also like even some like spinal extension, so bending your, your back backwards, just gently, like, all these things. Should you be like gentle around? Not trying to force it, but just like, we're going to spend a prolonged amount of time, like in a very similar position for our spine. So just doing some of That like, even like the opposite motion of you know, getting some, some back extension or some thoracic rotation in there. So, yeah, any sort of, of movement and kind of being intentionally vague there because one of the issues that I think we have with with warmups or recovery is like, there's so much information out there and there's so much stuff that you could do. so the best thing to do is, is do something that is. Easy for you to do consistently and that you'll actually do. And that you kind of, to some extent, enjoy doing or get some satisfaction out of doing. So I think there's a lot of room for individual variability in a, in a warmup. But the big thing is you nail the basics and kind of just be consistent with that. [00:23:42] Craig: That makes sense. The bigger area I wanted to talk to about is really the post ride recovery and the things we can do. I mean, I often get off the bike and, you know, obligated to do something immediately with the family or my son. I need to jump on it and I don't pay any attention other than maybe having a drink and recovery drink after I get off the bike. But in an ideal world, what are we doing? That's going to help promote the healing of those micro, micro tears in your muscles. And anything you can do to feel better. Maybe talk about it from, Hey, if you only have a tiny amount of time to, Hey, if you really want to go do everything you can, these are what you can do. [00:24:20] Kurt: Yeah. Yeah, Totally. Yeah. And so that's the that's the hard thing is like, we, we want to spend as much time doing the thing that we want to do. So, we want to get that extra mile and on the bike or do that extra of blue on the, on the bike. And then we come home and like, yeah, I have to go straight into the shower and go to work or like yeah, take care of the kiddos or, or whatever gets your day going. [00:24:42] Craig: I always, I always tell my wife, like the greatest gift I have is when I have a two hour ride, but a three hour one. It just feels like such a luxury because it's usually I have a two hour window and I'm going to do an hour and 59 minute ride. [00:24:56] Kurt: Yep. That's so that's so true. And I think we're all guilty of that. It's like, like I know that I could get back 10 minutes early and I could do some, some stretches or I could do those strength exercises. My PT told me to do, or I could make myself a better breakfast and not, you know, eat in the car on the way to work or whatever. But yeah, at the end of the day, like we want to do What we want to do. so I think. I think if it is like, just building in like five minutes, honestly, like, if you can consistently do that, like, maybe not even after all of your rides, but after like a hard effort or your long ride on the weekend. Just say like, I'm gonna, like when I get off the bike, I'm going to. Five minutes for myself. Just kind of like relaxing, you know, get your post ride nutrition, go and get, get, start to get rehydrated. I think that stuff should definitely be a priority, especially as we're getting back towards the summer months here pretty soon, hopefully. But and then yeah, for me, like that ritual should include like some sort of like soft tissue, self mobilization, or maybe just dynamic stretching something [00:25:57] Craig: mean? What, what is that self, what you just said? I didn't understand what that meant. [00:26:01] Kurt: Oh, sorry. So, yeah. So yeah, soft tissue mobilization is kind of a fancier word for essentially like massage. So, soft tissue is, you know, muscle or tendon or a fascia any of the, the softer structures in our body. So, that's like, a really big really big thing in the kind of recovery world is like, we know that. Elite athletes. They're going to get off the bike. They're going to have an hour long massage. And there is something to that because everyone still does it if they have the time and the money and the luxury to do that. but there's not a ton of like, like great like scientific evidence as to why, like massage or soft tissue work, like how it actually like physically. Helps us, like there's a lot of like theories at the tissue level. And, then at the person level as to why that like helps us recover. But so, so most of us, like, you know, we're not going to have the time to do that especially every day. So if you can just spend five minutes, like while you're at your car, before you drive back home or before you even like come in the house, you know, just have have foam roller or RA or something like that. Where you're going to hang the bike up and just like do it in your routine. And so basically saw self soft tissue mobilization to get back to that is using something like a foam roller or the RA or, or the stick or some, some other tool to, massage your muscles yourself. So I think we're all familiar with that. [00:27:27] Craig: And, and how D how deeply do you need to go into, like, would the stack or a foam roller, like sometimes, you know, when you're laying on the foam roller, you can put all your weight on or only partial weight. I think the masochist in us often like thinks like, oh, you gotta push it in really hard in order for it to have an effect. What is that right balance? It's just a matter of getting that motion across the muscle or does it need to have some, some power into it? [00:27:52] Kurt: Yeah. So that's like, I think you could ask that question to a room of, of PTs or other kind of similar field and you might get you know, 10 different answers, but basically the, the benefits of, of that are the only reliable thing that we know that massage is doing is creating a central nervous system. Relaxation response. And indogenous dopamine release, which basically means like, you know, dope means are our endorphins, our feel good. Endorphin. So we're creating some sort of relaxation response globally from our brain down to our muscles. So, we can like see that like with certain types of MRIs and, and brain MRIs. So. And then the other kind of theories are like, we're, we're moving around water. We're kind of flushing out our muscles where maybe loosening up the different fascial layers between muscle and skin and getting those to glide better. There's like the trigger point release theory. So a trigger point is a tight muscle not, or, or abandoned the tissue into your pushing on that and in restricting blood flow. And then you're getting it. Release that way. So my interpretation of all that is like, we know that we're getting our brain to relax our muscles. And then on top of that, there's probably some of those local tissue level responses that are also at play too. So. Long, long story to that question is like, it can be kind of up to you. Like what you want. It doesn't have to be extremely painful. And it, in my opinion, I don't think it should be super painful, but like it, you know, it's okay if it's like uncomfortable, for sure. Especially when you find those tight spots in, in the muscles that you've been, been working pretty hard. so I think it should be like pretty firm, but it doesn't have to be killing you. And if you're really sore, then it could be really gentle. So it could be kind of whatever you feel like you need. [00:29:42] Craig: So I'm curious, and I'm certainly not asking you to pick either or, but the first thing you mentioned was a self massage or foam rolling. As if you only had five minutes. A lot of times I've thought about like, oh, I get off the bike and I want to stretch, like stretching might be my go-to. Would you, would you say the foam rolling self massage first. And then if you have more time later and stretching after that, [00:30:05] Kurt: Yeah. I honestly I'd say some variability in there is probably good. Depending, it's going to be person to person dependent. So, like there's a lot of days where I feel like I just want to grab the, the RA and just like, you know, roll on my, my quads and my calves and my hamstring. And that's kinda all I need and I don't feel like I need to really do any, any stretching. But then Yeah. there's other days where like, know the, the opposite might be true. So, I think it's good to like, just get in a routine of spending that time, doing something. And honestly, like if we designed a, a science experiment where we like had group a, do one and group B do the other it probably would come out like fairly similar in a long-term kind of like study It makes a lot better sense to me and my brain to like actually kind of get in there and like use use some force to like, get things like moving around at the, at that local level. And that's gonna also get like that nice, like central nervous system, like pain modulation, just like get everything to settle down. so I think that the massage kind of stuff is, seems to be more More beneficial in my mind, but it one of those things, again, like if we only have a couple of minutes, like just pick something and do it and don't get bogged on this, the specifics. [00:31:14] Craig: Just, yeah, just make sure you're maximizing those minutes, whatever you're doing [00:31:18] Kurt: and that's why [00:31:18] Craig: a little bit more, [00:31:19] Kurt: I like something that's portable. So like, if you're you know, if you're driving to a parking lot or a Trailhead before you start your ride, then Something that you can take with you. Like You're keeping it in your car or. And you're in your bag with your snacks for post ride or whatever, like just, yeah. Pull out the, the real recovery RA and like that you can do it, like sitting at the back of your, your, your car before you even like, get, get in the. Getting the car and drive away. Like, that's what I try to do because I know like once I get home, I'm not going to do it. But you see, I mean, in Boulder we see people with that foam rollers that they're Trailhead and all sorts of things the massage guns, like there's all sorts of things that are out there. And I think finding the thing that works for you is it's totally fine. [00:32:04] Craig: Yeah, it certainly seems like the recovery industry over the last five or six years has exploded. And we've we referenced the roll recovery, our eight a couple of times already, but we haven't really talked about what that is. So we set the stage by saying, Hey, foam, rolling. Great thing. You can do. Pretty simple. One tool. The RA is something that is similar in terms of its efficacy. It's just approaching it in a little different, little different way. [00:32:32] Kurt: Yeah. Yeah, totally. In the, oh, you have the adjustable version too. I [00:32:36] Craig: Yeah. So what what I, what, it's hard to describe to the listener, right? But it's basically, you know, it's, it's got what, what is like almost four rollerblade wheels and a spring loaded that you can adjust and you can bring it to the outside of your leg and it'll roll up and down, making it maybe easier to use while you're sitting versus a foam roller, which may require you to be laying on the ground. [00:33:00] Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. Sitting or standing. And honestly, I, when they first came out with this product, I. Being a PT, like I, I convinced people to exercise all the time and I thought like, oh, well, I mean, people are, if you were going to choose to spend something that's more expensive than a regular, you know, $20 foam roller, I think most people are just had picked up the foam roller and I've been really surprised. Like I, you know, having had one of these in the clinic and just like having people try it, like people love it because it's simple, it's easy. And I think even. Getting down on the ground is a barrier for some people. And, and you also just can't you can't get as much pressure, like in certain places where you need it, you know, your calf or like the lateral part of your quad, like new your it band. So, yeah, I think, I think it is a pretty useful tool to have something that can be handheld and that you can kind of like adjust the pressure by either like turning the dial to make it harder or pressing a little bit harder. With your hand on that one, one spot and just kinda like run through places that are that are feeling like you worked on. And then when you kind of find a spot that's sore, kind of just seek and destroy, you know, and you're just like find that tight spot and, and press on and gets released. So, so [00:34:09] Craig: Yeah, I do find it. I do find it a little bit easier than the foam roller, to be honest, again, just being lazy and maybe sitting around watching TV, I can take the the RA and just run it across my legs and feel like I'm, I'm doing some of the work. [00:34:22] Kurt: Yeah. And the, the kind of the rubber grippiness is good. Like, I think a lot of times what people like from manual therapy that like I do is like, we're kind of putting a little bit of stretch on that fascia and we're, we're getting things in, things are Elise in that way. So I think there's something to be said for like the kind of the grippiness to, of the different, not inserts that they have, that you can kind of swap in and out. So, Yeah, that's, that's one of my go tos, I think [00:34:46] Craig: the other, the other big thing that's exploded, I think has been the percussion massage tools that are out there and a number of different brands offer that type of product. Is that, is that kind of doing a similar thing just in a more targeted way? Or how do you think about those devices? [00:35:03] Kurt: Yeah, I think those are any of those are pretty cool as well. Yeah. Everybody's everybody's asking me about those these days, and those are great for those harder to get areas where like, the, the glute meat or TFL, like a lot of times people have tightness there. so it's going to be like a little bit more pinpoint and essentially a similar effect in that it is going to create this again, like top-down. Relaxation of, of the, of the muscle that we're trying to work on. But it just doing it by like hammering at it really, really quickly. And it's something like for me, I like it in certain areas. And then and then I just like the more pressure in other areas. So if you can have both, then it's like one of those things you can, you can have both, but again, like something that's easy to use and and portable, which is nice. [00:35:52] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like over the years, I've just sort of subsequently Rico acquired more and more of these devices [00:35:58] Kurt: Oh, yeah, [00:35:59] Craig: I haven't, I just don't do it enough. That's the main problem. But again, some of these are really helping me improve the amount of time I spend on my, on my muscles, which they're appreciating [00:36:09] Kurt: Yeah. Totally. [00:36:11] Craig: the other one I wanted to just, just tease out with you and understand a little bit better. You know, when we see the pro tour riders on the road, In their, in their team buses after the races, I often see them in these air recovery boots. And I'm curious, like just what's going on with those. [00:36:28] Kurt: Yeah. So, I'll be honest. I've only used those a couple of times. Like when they were pretty new, when I was like in college who had some of those in the training room and basically it's compression and I believe it's greeted and compression. So it's kind of the idea Is mechanically pushing pushing fluid back, like approximately towards your Towards your torso. So helping you kind of queer lymphatic fluid or like are kind of low pressure venous system. So that's the idea is it's kind of like helping to flush you're flushing your muscles out. So for me, me personally, the, the juice isn't worth the squeeze with, with those I being a PTM bias to encourage people to do some sort of movement. And, and those are kind of the opposite of that. It's saying like, oh, well, why don't you do. Sit here and then this will help you help your muscles. And in reality, I think if you probably just went for a walk or chased your kids around the playground for that same 20 minutes, I think that might be that might be the same benefit there. [00:37:26] Craig: Is it, am I understanding you correctly that it's attempting to do something different than the foam rolling or massage gun would do? [00:37:32] Kurt: I think so, because those are going to be just more global. It's just pressure on your whole, whole leg. So it's in at the same time. So on both at the same time, they're just pushing, pushing fluid up to your lymphatic system to be kind of like flushed in and cleared out. I haven't seen any data or anything on, on, on the ethicacy of that, but like, a lot of people still use them, especially in pro situations. And I feel like everyone I know in Boulder has has one and and people love them. So I think there must be something, something to it. But but yeah, the idea is it's it's pushing fluid away from your, extremities, which in theory should be, should be helpful. So I think that could be a helpful to, [00:38:12] Craig: does your body process? So if it's pushing it away from your extremities, into your, your kind of core, does the body process it through the core more efficiently and get it out of the body? [00:38:22] Kurt: yeah, exactly. So basically like any time. Like our lymphatic system and our venous system is a low pressure system, will our arteries are high pressure. So, if that's why gravity has an effect on DEMA and swelling. And so if somebody, you know, was is, has surgery or screens, if you sprain your ankle, that's an extreme case of there's a lot of. Swelling in that limb. And so, you know, if you elevate your leg above your heart, while you're laying on the couch, then gravity is going to help that kind of like trickle down sort of torch your organs, where that's going to be like filtered and then put that fluid gets put back into your bloodstream eventually. So it's the idea is it's basically like, compressing and bringing that fluid to be recycled faster. Yeah, that makes sense. [00:39:11] Craig: Yeah, it's super interesting. Super interesting. Cool. Well, I appreciate you giving us like this overview and I like the fact that we've left, left the listener with this idea of like, you know, there's a hierarchy of things you can be doing to support yourself post ride. And the very basics are carve out just a few minutes of your time. Work on a little foam rolling or self massage as at a bare minimum. And then beyond that layer in these other modalities of repair, if you have time, but the important thing is just build this into your routine. [00:39:45] Kurt: Totally. Yeah, And then and just have it be something that you can do consistently and then also just make sure that you're, you're covering the basics with yeah. Your nutrition and sleep and life stress. And we should all be doing some strength training, like twice a week, even if it's not our thing I'm doing. Some just general strength training for the legs and arms can be whatever you want, or it can be very specific to biking is also really important for our bodies and longevity in the sport and moving in different ways. So I definitely think that's an important part of recovery, even though it's kind of on the, on the front side, you know, it's not gonna help you after you're sore, but it'll help you from getting sore by doing things if you're, if you're stronger going into that. [00:40:26] Craig Dalton: That's great perspective, Kurt. Thanks. And thanks for joining us. [00:40:31] Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me fun to talk with you. [00:40:33] Craig Dalton: Cheers. That's going to do it for this week's broadcast big. Thanks to the feed for sponsoring the show. And remember, simply visit the feed.com/the gravel ride to get 50% off your first order of the feed formula. And a big thank you to Kurt for joining us. I hope you learned a lot about recovery. I know, I sure did. There's definitely things that I need to integrate into my routine. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. Simply go to www.theridership.com and join our free online community. If you're able to support the podcast, simply visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels

EPISODE 002 HIGHLIGHTS:Defining SEL and deconstructing some myths around SELSEL is not a program and more than a lesson plan: It is who you are and what you do every day.Modeling SEL ourselves and leveraging that to change the power dynamics in learning spacesExamining our connections with students so they can show up as their authentic selvesTaking a collective, strengths-based approach to SEL that involves self, staff, students, and familiesEPISODE 002 RESOURCES:Follow Krista on social media: Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Resonance Ed websitePASCD 3-part webinar series: Cultivating an SEL System for Student and Staff Synergy AcademyEPISODE 002 TRANSCRIPT:Krista: Welcome everyone to this episode 2 of SEL in EDU. Hi Craig!Craig: Hey, Krista how's it going?Krista: It is good. It's a Saturday morning. I think you and I have a ton of energy that is not really contained in any one direction.Craig: that would be true. That would be true. Krista: But I think we had talked about the first couple of episodes were just them getting used to us and who we are. But we're excited to bring on some guests to dig in and really talk about where SEL shows up in education and in all the different ways that it can show up.Craig: Yeah. And so today I'm excited because I have the opportunity to interview you so that the world can learn, just get a couple of glimpses into who Krista is to the world that we have here. And so pretty excited.Krista: I'm excited as well. So I know that we had, we often talk about, do we come up with some questions or do we just kind of wing it? And you're like, well, what if I just ask you some questions? And so I'm off for that. So let's just see where this goes.Craig: Awesome. Well, let's go there's a great quote by one of our education leaders who I regard highly. He's the author of many things and he just released the children's book. You know, how to think and like a coder and he has this quote, “All you need is one person to believe in you and the world is yours.” Just one. And so I'm curious, who's that one person, and I know that it's probably many people, but as early as you can think about it…Who is one person who lit that fire ignited that fire in you that has driven you to be who you are today?Krista: Wow. Wow. Like, do I go back to elementary school?Craig: I'm leaving it open-ended.Krista: Dang. You may have silenced me because I have all of these different people come in. And so here's how I'm going to answer that. All right. I truly believe that there are different people who come into your life at different points and provide opportunities and entries for you that you may not have ever thought about before. And so, as I'm talking about that, I am going to share that one of the biggest “AHAs” of my life was when I had a principal named Chris Shafer who came to me one time when I was seven years in teaching. He said the state of Pennsylvania has a grant that allows for people to get involved in what they're calling “Classrooms for the Future,” where you become an instructional technology coach. And we're going to apply for this grant. Krista: We're one of the schools that is kind of behind in it; there are other schools that are ahead. Would you be interested in this position? And up until that point, I never thought I was going to have a life outside of the classroom because I loved being with the students so much. It was an

Sean: What would be some words that you would want to give to these business owners who are not only frustrated at the government, at some of their people, maybe at their business, but are also in a desperate and depressing situation right now? Craig: Yeah, it's a great question, and I'll take myself back to that situation in the global financial crisis. So I went 18 months where my lunch was a bread roll and salad that my wife made, it was probably worth less than $1. And I did that for 18 months, and during that time I made some decisions. So the key bit of advice here is, you are at a crossroads in your life where you are required to make some decisions. Are you going to continue to bang your head against the wall like this for however long? Or are you going to make a decision to make a change in your life? Craig: The decision might be "Ok, this is now I've made my decision that I'm going to move forward and what I need to do. There is a need to grow and evolve. I need to build my mindset. I need to build my skill set. I need to find an opportunity that will allow me to fulfill my true potential.” So low cost, low risk and limited potential opportunity which is what I've done in the Philippines. I used to run events in Makati for thousands and thousands of people would turn out when I would turn up in there. So budgetary wise a low-risk, low-cost opportunity, could be as much as two hundred dollars. And then you get a website and a product and a, you know, this something to help you work. Yes, some business tools, et cetera, that could be the thing. Craig: But the point is if you keep taking the same skills, the same mindset, the same attitude in the next ten years when the next pandemic comes along with the next global financial crisis comes along, and the next lockdowns, and the next whatever. If you haven't made the change today, you're going to be in the same position again back then. Craig: So the point is you need to make a decision. Life won't bless you if you don't bless yourself. I think it's good as 'if it is to be, it is up to me.' You know, the 10 two letter words that I heard in my grade 10. When I was leaving Grade 10, I left home from there and it was, the principal said. 'If it is to be, it is up to me. Now go and spread your wings and go and make something of your life. And from that point on, I've made something of my life. Craig: Your business might be salvageable. You might be passionate about it. I'm not saying you have to quit your business. It might be something temporary and then you can soar like an eagle, but you might if you're in that situation where you go, you know, even if everything opens up, this is a dying industry or I'm not passionate about it or I'm not making enough money out of it, or, you know, it doesn't give me the lifestyle that I want to leave. You know, they're the reasons that this injunction in life should lead you in a new direction. Craig: I feel that I'm leaving into a new direction myself, again get it to innovate and evolve and what I say to people, what I'm building now is going to make quantum leaps of speed this time. You know, I went up in exponential. Next time is going to be quantum leaps, for sure. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

In this week's In the Dirt, Randall and Craig take a look at gravel handlebar trends, new bags from Post Carry Co, Craig's new strength training with EverAthlete, a new Bay Area bikepacking route and tease an ongoing discussion of social media and cycling in The Ridership. Bay Area Triple Bypass Route Post Carry Bags Whisky Spano Bar Support the Podcast Join The Ridership   Automated transcription, please excuse the typos and errors: Untitled [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. I'll be joined shortly by my co-host randall jacobs for another episode of in the dirt . [00:00:12] This episode is brought to you by our friends at thesis bike. Yes. That indeed is Randall's company thesis. Randall donates his time to the gravel ride podcast in the dirt series, out of an abundance of passion for the sport. But he also runs a company called thesis, as you know, is the maker of the OB one bicycle. [00:00:33] That is actually the bicycle that I ride. If you follow me on social media, you may see my custom painted pink. Thesis, OB one. I affectionately refer to as Mr. Pinky. Anyway, I wanted to give you an update. Thesis has some bikes back in stock.  [00:00:50] As I mentioned a few weeks ago, they've got some of those SRAM rival access grupos in stock. So they've got bikes ready to go, but more importantly, they've just, re-introduced their bring a friend referral program. That'll get you $500 off an OB one. When you purchase a bike with a friend. Or if you have a friend that has a thesis.  [00:01:13] You can hit them up for a $500 discount. So coordinate with the team over a thesis. If you have any questions, you can email them@helloatthesis.bike.  [00:01:23] Or check them out online@thesis.bike, they offer free one-on-one consultations, which is a great way to see if a thesis. It will be. One is the right bike for you.  [00:01:33] With that said, let me grab Randall and let's jump into in the dirt.  [00:01:37] Craig: Hey Randall, how you doing today? [00:01:39] Randall: I'm doing well, Craig, how are you? My friend.  [00:01:42] Craig: I'm good. I literally just got done recording the pre-roll.  [00:01:47] Talking about. [00:01:47] thesis, your company's new refer a friend program, which I thought was cool.  [00:01:52] Let I let the listeners know about that, and I appreciate your efforts as a cohost of in the dirt, but separately, when you wear your thesis bike company, hat. I do appreciate the time to time financial support you provide the podcast. Because it really is the type of thing that keeps the balls rolling around here. [00:02:10] Randall: For sure. Yeah. In our bring your friend program is actually something we did before and had to pull when supply chains went sideways. And now that we have bikes in stock, we'd much rather reward the community rather than. You know, paying Bookface or some ad network to, to reach people. So it's nice to be able to reward those who help spread the word. And then obviously, you know, with what you do, it's been very aligned from the beginning. So thanks for the opportunity to work with you.  [00:02:35] Craig: Yeah. [00:02:35] absolutely appreciate it. Yeah. It's so ridiculous that there was like 15 months or more in there where bike companies just didn't bother advertising or promoting themselves because it was so ridiculously hard product into consumer's hands.  [00:02:50] Randall: Yeah, there's really no point in trying to sell something you don't have. And don't don't know when you'll have it again. That seems to be. That seems to be a phenomenon that's going to continue well into the future for awhile. From what  [00:03:03] Craig: Yeah. I mean, not to bring sort of macroeconomic trends in here, but I was just, just listening to someone talk about how in Apple's earnings call. There is some suggestion that. Supply chains are improving. They have not improved entirely, but that they are. Improving and that in the grand scheme of things, this will be a temporary blip, but temporary could mean two years.  [00:03:26] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. In their case, they're dealing with chips too, which I'm getting a new chip Foundry online is a multi-year $10 billion project. So fortunately we don't have that in the bike industry. We're pretty, pretty low on the technology front, even with our. Wireless shifting, which, how did that take so long to come come about?  [00:03:46] Craig: How are you doing otherwise? Is the weather starting to change on the east coast for you? [00:03:49] Randall: We've had some beautiful days past several days. We had a nor'easter coming through. So I did steal away for a trail run between, between rains in the should have some good weather on the weekend and otherwise loving being with family here in Boston, it's a very different lifestyle than the one I was living in the bay area.  [00:04:06] And it's a very much aligned with where I'm at. Yeah.  [00:04:09] Craig: We get, we got absolutely hammered out here by that rainstorm in Moran. I think we had the highest rain count in Anywhere in California. [00:04:17] that weekend. I think we got on Tam and there's 12 inches of rain. So it was, it was literally coming out of every pore of The mountain. There were new streams and waterfalls being, being created.  [00:04:29] I mean, God knows we needed the water. [00:04:31] and is so nice. I wrote up the mountain for Dawn patrol on a Wednesday and Just to see a little water. [00:04:36] in places where it has been devoid. Void because of the drought was, was nice.  [00:04:42] Randall: When I did see your, your conversation or the conversation you chimed in on in, on, on the ridership about you know, opening up a new you know, gullies and things like this in the trails. So hopefully they're relatively intact. [00:04:55] Craig: Yeah, that was fun. I mean, that's one of those things that you and I have always like thought and hoped would happen in the ridership. Just this idea that a writer could pop a message into the forum and say, Hey, we just got this huge rainstorm. How, how are the trails looking? Is it rideable or is it too.  [00:05:11] As it a sloppy mess. [00:05:13] Randall: Yeah, it's pretty neat.  [00:05:14] Craig: The  [00:05:14] Randall: been training quite a bit lately, right?  [00:05:16] Craig: Yeah. [00:05:16] You know, I was going to say The other good.  [00:05:17] thing about the rain and not being, Wanting to ride my bike outside. [00:05:22] lately, as I have. [00:05:23] committed to a strength training program. [00:05:25] It's one of those things as I've nagged about my back on the podcast. Many months ago.  [00:05:31] That I've actually implemented a little bit of a plan And I've been. [00:05:35] working via a company called ever athlete. And I became aware of them.  [00:05:41] As one of the founder is Kate Courtney's strength and conditioning coach, Kate Courtney being a former world champion mountain Biker. [00:05:49] who comes from This area. [00:05:51] And what, what appealed to me most about. The ever athlete program was that they have a run specific program, a cycling specific program, and then basic conditioning.  [00:06:03] after chatting with them, [00:06:04] a little bit online. And I had a phone call with them just as a general consumer. You know, it was advised that I start with beginner strength training.  [00:06:12] And Totally. [00:06:14] spot on if I started anything beyond beginner. I would have been absolutely destroyed. And frankly, like some of the exercises. Do you have me sore in places that are not used to being sore?  [00:06:26] Randall: So if somebody were to ask you, do you even lift bro? The answer would be not quite yet. I'm doing the beginner stuff first.  [00:06:34] Craig: Yeah.  [00:06:35] Exactly. Like I don't have tank tops yet and a special weightlifting gear and gloves that I'm using, But I have. [00:06:42] I'm on weak. I'm proud of myself. [00:06:43] I just completed week four of an eight week, week block.  [00:06:47] Just getting my body's too. Basic strength training. I'm using a TRX, some elastic bands.  [00:06:54] And just a few basic weights. That's not a exorbitant setup, I'm just doing it. And, you know, eight by eight area of My garage. [00:07:02] every other day.  [00:07:04] Randall: That's great. Yeah, I've. I've gotten on a reasonably regular routine with a pair of 50 pound power blocks, adjustable dumbbells, which I'm a big fan of I've tried a few different types of adjustable dumbbells and these are the best have had. And just like doing a basic routine with not a crazy amount of weight and then adding some chin ups and AB work and so on squats and stuff like that, with that together with running and stretching, and I'll probably be adding yoga.  [00:07:30] As the winter progresses and I can't get outside so much.  [00:07:33] Craig: Yeah, you'll have to put a note in the show notes for me on that one. I'd be interested. Cause I know in ever athletes list of things that I may need. That type of wait setup is, will come into play at some point.  [00:07:45] Randall: Got it. Yeah. They don't, they don't pay us, but I can definitely endorse the power block sport. And it's totally sufficient for me, even at 50 pounds, because anything that I do with more than 50 pounds, I probably shouldn't be doing anyways. I don't need it.  [00:07:57] Craig: Yeah, I mean, good God Right now. [00:07:58] Randall, I'm basically doing almost exclusively body weight exercises.  [00:08:03] 50 pounds seems a long way away from where my current strength training is at.  [00:08:08] Randall: Oh, you can get a whole lot of resistance with just body weight too. So there's no need to buy too much expensive gear, but yeah, these are a good one. [00:08:15] Craig: Yeah. [00:08:16] totally. I mean, I think I'll walk away from this, knowing that just even, even strictly a body weight program would be hugely beneficial.  [00:08:23] Randall: Yeah, I think so. I'm curious to hear how your back is feeling in a couple of months.  [00:08:28] Craig: Yeah, for sure. [00:08:28] So I've got an a, as I said, I've got another month on basic, and then I think I'll just carry over into their cycling, their first cycling Specific program. [00:08:36] And I've been chatting with them. [00:08:37] and I think I'll have them on the pod so we can get just a deeper dive into.  [00:08:42] Not just Their program. [00:08:43] but just strength training specifically, and the, and the value for cyclists to take a break and do something different.  [00:08:51] Randall: I remember hearing a quote somewhere that the biggest problem with cyclists in their training program is that they only ride their bikes.  [00:08:59] Craig: A hundred percent. [00:09:00] It's funny. You mentioned that because another guest I've got coming up is a pretty world renowned. Bike fitter, but he from the UK, but he wrote a book called the midlife cyclist.  [00:09:10] And I'm going to dig into it with him, but yeah, one of the key takeaways is as an average, enthusiastic and passionate, enthusiastic cyclist.  [00:09:19] we're probably riding more and closer to our, not more by volume, but closer to our threshold than professional cyclists do because We go out there. [00:09:28] and we hammer, you know, we're just feeling like we're out there for a good time.  [00:09:31] And the best thing you could do is probably. Lose a workout or two on the bike and change it into some strength training or something. That's you know, testing different parts of your body.  [00:09:41] Randall: Yeah, I look forward to that episode. That'll be a good one.  [00:09:44] Craig: Yeah. [00:09:45] I'm super excited about it. I mean, I've just been thinking about it. In light of my own winter and what I want to achieve and how I want to set myself up for success next year. And success for me just means into being healthy and strong enough to tackle. You know, a big event or two here or there and not have it totally destroyed me.  [00:10:03] Randall: Yeah. And I think that for some of us do I, I ended up talking to a lot of athletes who are. You know, or later in years, and just being able to know that you can, you have some control over your ability to ride well into old age and maintained flexibility and bone density and injury prevention and all these other things is you know, it's, it's it's a good resource for folks to have to, to know how to, how to approach that. [00:10:28] Craig: Yeah, totally. I've. [00:10:28] got another great episode that I'm recording actually immediately after this with Brian McCulloch. Ah,  [00:10:33] Former pro road racer, former BWR winner, and most recently just won. I think it was The masters category. [00:10:40] of mountain bike nationals.  [00:10:41] So Awesome guys. [00:10:42] super enthusiastic. And one of the things he was telling me in his coaching practice. [00:10:47] was that, you know, he coaches plenty of athletes whose goal is I want to complete the event and then be totally Pepe for the beer garden afterwards. [00:10:57] And he's  [00:10:57] I'm Totally down with it. No one wants to just barely crawl across the finish line And then have to go to their car. [00:11:04] to take a nap, especially in these gravel events. We want to finish, we want to commune with our fellow participants and, you know, I think that's a. Admirable goal for anyone to not only cross the finish line, but be able to. Party Hardy as the kids say.  [00:11:20] Randall: Yeah. It's you know, you have the combination of having endured something with, with other people and then getting to connect like the, the vehicle for connection elements shines out of that, that statement there, which is certainly why I ride.  [00:11:33] Craig: Yeah, totally. And speaking of events I know I did a recap episode of Water, but I thought we chat about that a little bit since it's something you've participated in, in years past. [00:11:42] Randall: number of times. Yeah, this is actually the first year, the first time in years that I didn't go. It, I just reading the reporting. It seems like the. You know, the new stuff was relatively sparse. There's a couple of things that you and I want to, to jump into in future episodes with the new BMC.  [00:11:58] Headshot, they're not calling it a headshot, but it's, it looks like a head shock and surrounds new flight, attendants, suspension, and so on. So that'll be fun to dive into, but I'm curious, what else did you see that was compelling?  [00:12:09] Craig: Yeah. You know, I mean, it's first off for those of you who don't know, it's quite the festival. I mean, you've got everything from downhill and Duro, gravel cross-country road racing.  [00:12:20] While I find it. [00:12:21] a bit overwhelming, the sheer number of cyclists and people that are there. At Laguna Seca. It is fun to see someone in spandex and a pro road kit. Riding through the pits next to you, a downhill kid with his full face helmet, shoved back on his head with a neck brace. [00:12:39] Randall: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:12:41] Craig: You know, from a, from a product perspective and manufacturer perspective. The number of booths was down. I mean, it still was quite a Hardy show, but I would say. You know, with the absence of the international.  [00:12:54] Manufacturers. [00:12:55] coming is probably like 40%, less sheer booths. So it made it more manageable. Whereas now the last time they held it in person.  [00:13:03] I felt like covering it in one day was just too much. Like I really needed about a day and a half or a day and three quarters to get around. [00:13:12] and make sure I poked my head in every booth That was out there. [00:13:15] this year was a little bit more manageable. I think in three quarters of a day, I had cruised around and seen everything I wanted to see.  [00:13:22] Randall: Cool. Cool. And you only spent the one day. Yeah.  [00:13:25] Craig: Yeah. [00:13:25] I just did a day trip which I think. Made me like it a little bit more. I mean, I think the last time we were down there, It was just such a cluster AF to, you know, get in and out of there with your car and you were parked so far away. So I found that this fit where I was at this this year. [00:13:42] Randall: Yeah we had a booth last time too. So we had all of that setting up and tearing down and so on. But yeah, hopefully by next year, it's it would make sense for me to get out there again, cause I've always enjoyed that. It's actually the only, the only time I've ever lined up at a race with like international.  [00:14:00] Racers.  [00:14:01] You know, just cause they you know, even if you were a low, a low level, regional domestic pro, you could line up in the, the UCI cross-country race. So you're not necessarily racing the same race, but burry stander was there and Christoph saucer was there and it was just like my moment of oh wow.  [00:14:16] You know, getting to. Line up. 15 rows behind them.  [00:14:20] Craig: You're like, I'm going to stay on their wheel and 50 meters. And you're like, I'm not going to stay on their wheel. [00:14:24] Randall: Oh, they, they started 20 seconds before I did. By the time everyone's actually rolling. So there's, there's no staying on any wheels regardless.  [00:14:32] Craig: That's all. It's the funniest thing. When I'm at these big events, when they, they shoot off the starting gun and you're far enough back that nothing happens. There's no movement.  [00:14:41] Randall: Yeah, the slinky effect.  [00:14:43] Craig: Yeah. [00:14:44] But there have been, you know, there's been some cool stuff dropping lately that I think we should talk about. You  [00:14:49] know, I think. We should jump in a little bit into the handlebars that have been coming out because I know. In talking to you. You had a particular design in mind that you.  [00:15:01] thought was what you would design. If you.  [00:15:04] were going to design a Handlebar. [00:15:05] from the ground up, and then lo and behold, someone came out with one that was pretty darn close to what you described.  [00:15:11] Randall: Yeah. So I've called out this Aero Jaya. I think it's called my three T a number of times. And this was the closest thing to what I would design that I had seen. But whiskey just came out with a bar called the Spano. Or Spanno however they want to accentuate that a and pretty much everything about this is the way that I would design a bar.  [00:15:30] There's a few things I would do subtly differently and I can definitely share that. But You know, it's 12 degrees at the hoods and 20 degrees to the drops and it's a compound flare. And so you don't have to have the same flare. At the hoods and in the drops, because a lot of the leavers these days have some flare built in anyways. I would probably go with a little bit less flare with the hoods to give it a little more roadie position, maybe eight degrees, but still.  [00:15:53] For, you know, this is well done. It's a flat top design there. It looks like they've had some engineered flex. Built into, you know, what I would call like the wings of the bar so that you get some vertical flex. From the bar, which could help to, you know, negate the need for something as substantial as like a suspension stem.  [00:16:12] I think that these compliance structures are our real opportunity to add. Compliance to the bike without necessarily having to add mechanical linkages and things like this.  [00:16:22] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that, that compliance is something that people would really benefit from. And if, if, if the manufacturers can do it in subtle ways, I think it all adds up.  [00:16:33] Randall: Challenges that different riders are going to have different needs in terms of let's just say you want to deliver the same experience to everybody. Then, you know, with a given handlebar under a bigger rider, you are going to need it to be stiffer in order for them to have the same experiences as a lighter weight rider. Who's just not exerting the same force.  [00:16:50] So that would be one thing where, you know, that's hard to do without having two versions of the bar or some sort of tuneable flex mechanism, which is something I've played around with, but adds complexity.  [00:16:59] I do like how the, the drop is really shallow. It's a hundred mil. The reaches is pretty short, 68. I would have the drop scale with the size of the bar would be one minor thing, because presumably on average, the, you know, the width of the bar is scaling with the size of the rider. But even that there's a huge amount of variation on that bell curve.  [00:17:19] Overall, like. It's this, this is from what I've seen and what you can do with the leavers that are on the market. Because there's only two companies that make them and they control Libra design. This, this is the most interesting one to me. Hopefully we can get our hands on one at some point and provide a proper review, but it looks really, really compelling. I'm glad to see this direction towards compound flares.  [00:17:41] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:41] I thought that I was going to key in, on that. Those words you used compound flares, because I do think that's interesting because you know, one of the things that. The F the former roadie in me, I do not like when the, when the shifter lovers are angled into too far. And it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel great. And it seems if there's a.  [00:18:00] If there's a design way too. Still get the flare you need at the bottoms while not overly adjusting where the hoods are, you know, that's a win.  [00:18:11] Randall: Yeah. And, and, you know, in our bars, we went with a. Non-compounded 10 degree flare because it is, you know, the best, the most glared you can get without it. Really effecting the ergonomics at the hoods, especially with say ceramides mechanical road leavers that have a kind of a square edge. So if you rotate them too far out, you get a kind of a pressure point in the middle of the hand. [00:18:31] But yeah, it's a pretty neat handlebar. So [00:18:35] Craig: Yeah. And with everything. You know, I think you've gotta be tooling costs are obviously like the big concern and changing it. Dramatically. Size wise each time. And so you, haven't got to think about. How many sets of tools are you willing to buy to bring this product to market? Handlebar replacement. I don't know what kind of volume any of these companies do with their handlebars, but it's, it's a little bit of a balance there. I would think from a manufacturing perspective.  [00:19:03] Randall: Yeah to, to dive a little bit into this without going too deep nerd. So if you're a big manufacturer, like a specialized or a track or something, you can amortize those tooling costs over a large number of bicycles that are specking that this handlebar at the OEM level, if you're doing an aftermarket bar,  [00:19:19] It's a lot harder. And the tooling cost is quite material on an item like this, where it's low volume and you have so many different sizes. Usually it would be three tools. You'd have. You know, or at least the three component tool. So you have. You know, the two drops and then you have the center section and maybe the center section is a single mold.  [00:19:38] With different inserts or even like you make one long one and then you chop it to the width that you want. And then you essentially bond on the drops. Which is where some extra weight comes in. So if you see bars like 250 grams or so if you want to drop 50 grams without compromising the structural integrity, that has to be a one-piece bar, which means.  [00:19:57] An independent, large mold. That's that's moderately complex for every single size. And if you're only doing a few hundred units a year, which is a good volume for an aftermarket handlebar, that's hard to justify economically.  [00:20:10] Craig: Yeah. [00:20:10] that makes a ton of sense. I'm actually curious, and maybe listeners can either hit us up on social media or in the ridership, ideally about how often.  [00:20:18] People replace their bars. And is it the type of thing that When you're building. [00:20:22] the bike, you get that bar and you never think about it otherwise. Which I suspect, I know I've certainly been there in my bike ownership life. But I do think there's a decent amount of innovation in gravel bars for people to consider and just keep an eye out there for what are the performance benefits? How do these different bars feel?  [00:20:43] When you put them on your existing bike.  [00:20:45] Randall: I do think that one of the major constraints here is simply cost and that actually has less to do with the unit cost and more to do with having to amortize the tooling costs over. So few units. But I, you know, handlebars like a carbon bar on the one hand, it's somewhat disposable. If you design it, if you don't design it right. Where if you crash, like you really want to replace it. But on the other hand, the, the opportunities for compound shapes and for compliance being built in.  [00:21:12] Negates may negate the need for more expensive and complicated solutions elsewhere on the bike to achieve the same goals. You know, I'd like to see if I could do a handlebar at scale, You know, the, the actual cost on something like this is for a tiny fraction of the actual sale price of, you know, 250 to 400 bucks on some of these bars. [00:21:31] Craig: Yeah. [00:21:31] That's the thing. I mean, once you've got, once you've got your bike frame. And you're not going to replace that. You really need to look at your attachment points as the, you know, how are you going to tune the bike? [00:21:41] Randall: Yeah, the touch points. Exactly.  [00:21:44] Craig: On the other end of the spectrum. [00:21:46] curve had a bar called the Walmart. Out for a while. And curve is probably best known for their massively wide bars. I mean like 50 plus centimeter bars.  [00:21:58] Very different riding style. They've actually gone the other way and introduced a narrower version of that. And I just think it's interesting to see them coming in. I mean, I can imagine that she super, super wide bar is a big part of the markets. I suppose it's not surprising. To see them go narrower.  [00:22:15] Randall: They're also going with aluminum. You know, your tooling cost is. It's basically a jig. So it's not, you can do smaller volume and, and carve out that little niche for oneself, but yeah, they went with a 40 and a 43 with, it looks like here, but the. My concern would be the flare is so great at the hoods.  [00:22:34] That you'd really want to be mindful of the shape of the hoods that you're using to make sure that it's not going to put a pressure point in your hand.  [00:22:42] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:42] I think it's a bar for a very specific customer. Follow up question for you on a aluminum versus carbon in the handlebar from a field perspective, what are the what's. How should people think about the difference in feel between those two materials?  [00:22:57] Randall: It really depends on how it's engineered. It really depends heavily on how it's engineered. And I was. You know, the particulars of the material, how it's shaped, how it's drawn is it, is it. You know, buddied and so on, which is an actual budding process. And with carbon kind of same thing, like.  [00:23:13] What is, what is the shape? What type of carbon is being used? What is the layup? You can make a structure that is incredibly stiff or very compliant you could add. I think loaf their bar, they're using some You know, some fancily branded. Fiberglass material in order to create you know, some, some even, even greater, even greater flex in the part of the handlebar, just beyond the clamp with the stem.  [00:23:38] GT did this with their original grade and may still to this day on the seat stays, they actually have a fiberglass wrapped in carbon fiber. So fiberglass is what's used in like a fishing pole. So think about the extremes of flex that you can get with that before it breaks. [00:23:52] So there's it really just, it just depends, but in terms of the opportunities to tune flex and so on. Vastly greater with carbon, for sure, for sure. But this trade-offs with that.  [00:24:03] Craig: Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Hey, the other thing I wanted to mention in terms of new product drops recently was our friend mark at post Kericho. I dropped a couple of new bags.  [00:24:14] Randall: Yeah, let's take a look at these. So he's got a new handlebar bag. Which these, these things are hard to. Talk too much about with action without actually experiencing one, but  [00:24:27] Craig: Yeah. [00:24:28] I think the interest, the interesting thing about all Mark's stuff is he's a very thoughtful designer and one of my pet peeves around the handlebar bags, and it's got nothing to do with. Like general use of the bag. Is that with the zipper being up top?  [00:24:43] With my bike, computer Mount, and oftentimes a light it's really hard to get at them because it's being pushed down and Mark's designed the zipper to be in the middle of the front of this bag.  [00:24:57] I saw some comments about Alex, stuff's going to drop out. But I think at the end of the day, you're going to know that it's there and that's where it's located. So I think from a practical perspective, it's still going to work, but it would solve my personal problem with trying to get in there without unstrapping the bag from the handlebar.  [00:25:14] Randall: Yeah. And this bag is also quite compact, this new bag in the mini handlebar bag that he came out with. And so I could imagine. Strapping it to the bar and the little strap on the back around the stem, as opposed to, you know, having to strap it in a way that may push cables or the bag itself into the head tube, which is a very common problem with these handlebar bags.  [00:25:35] And you know, leads me to actually on my bike packing bag to have add straps in order to have it connect both to the bar and then to like right behind the hoods. So you don't get that rotational flop and it [00:25:49] keeps it off the head tube. But that's a [00:25:51] Craig: And are they get minimum? At minimum for anyone writing. Riding. You know, a lot, lots of types of bags, just consider putting some protective film over your frame in case there's rubbing. [00:26:00] Randall: For sure. For sure. Yeah, we, yeah. Good recommendation.  [00:26:05] Craig: The other interesting one he came up with was this bomber top tube bag, which is a very long and, and Kind of not, not a big stack height bag that can go along the top tube or underneath the top tube. It's the, maybe three quarters of the length of the top two, but it looks like.  [00:26:21] We're just, it's interesting. I don't think for me, it's like a daily rider type thing, but I do love the multiple different positions of it. And I could see for a bigger trip or a bigger day out this being like one of those bags that I just add on for specific purposes. [00:26:36] Randall: Yeah, And presumably it's a bit lighter than his existing frame bag, which I own, I'm not sure if you own as well. I'm a huge fan of that bag for, for bigger days on the bike where I need to bring stuff.  [00:26:47] Craig: Yeah. [00:26:47] no. I imagine like running that quarter frame bag and then adding this one on top, you know, if you were doing some epic back country ride and wanted to maybe bring a full pump or what have you I think this is a neat option to add on and augment that kind of storage.  [00:27:02] Randall: One comment I did see in one of the articles was this idea of, you know, maybe it would be a mountable on the bottom of the down tube. Which I actually think is a a space where, you know, a design, a bag that was designed specifically for that space could both lower center of mass. And Potentially provide some protection for that part of the bike from rocks kicking up and so on, which is a significant concern, especially when you get into more Tundra terrain on one of these gravel bikes.  [00:27:31] Craig: Yeah. I think some more of the hardcore bike packing pack bag manufacturers have solutions for that area, whether they're building off the bottle cage, that's often down there and a lot of these gravel bikes. We're otherwise attaching agree. It's a, it's an interesting place. There's so many different nooks and crannies.  [00:27:50] To jam stuff on these bikes with all these new modern bags. It's a, you're not, there's no dearth of options for you, depending on how you want to set up your rig.  [00:27:58] Randall: Yeah. And the last thing we'll call out here is the the seat bag, which is a pretty standard, but really elegantly designed seat bag. And I just got to, you know, give a shout out for him on just the aesthetics of these bags. Then also the cost structure, like the seat bags, 30 bucks. You know, the, the bomber bag.  [00:28:13] I'm seeing 35 bucks. So really getting like this high quality construction and design at a very accessible price point. So Bravo mark, keep up the good work. Good to see you. Continuing to put product out.  [00:28:25] Craig: Yeah, kudos. Speaking of other things that people, we know, people from the ridership we're putting out there in the world. Some cool stuff on bike, packing.com.  [00:28:34] Randall: Yeah. So our friends Emily Chung and Seth Hur from over at bike index. So you've worked with, did he do the full triple crossover?  [00:28:44] Craig: He did.  [00:28:44] Randall: Yeah. So the bay area, triple crossover, which was published on bike, packing.com over the past week or so, 161 miles, three to four days 65% unpaved and a really, a lot of great photography and so on. And it covers essentially from Marin. North of San Francisco all the way around the bay, back to south bay.  [00:29:06] Maybe in the other direction, maybe that's how they finished up, but it's a, and there's actually a way. Yeah. And there's a way to, and we discussed this in the forum to connect to the bay area Ridge trail through the Santa Cruz mountains. If someone wanted to do an entire loop here, which  [00:29:21] She, she very well may do at some point in posts, but a really cool to see members of the community going out and having good adventures and sharing the routes with others so that others can follow in the footsteps or pedal strokes. As we may say.  [00:29:34] Craig: Yeah. [00:29:34] for sure. It's so valuable to have this sort of bait out there. And I love all the imagery. I. People should go to the bike, packing.com. Link and you can find it either in the ridership or we'll put it in the show notes for this episode, stunning pictures. And it's so cool. I think there's one picture I'm looking at right now.  [00:29:52] Of the four of them riding across the golden gate bridge. In part of their journey looks like they're heading towards Marin and this pitcher just starting off. I just love it. I'm in such, such sort of iconic. Imagery around the bay area. And for those of you not in this area,  [00:30:07] The idea. [00:30:08] that you could fly into SFO. Take a Bart train into the city with your bags or even write up and then start on this journey. From a major metropolitan area is just awesome. And even from some of the imagery, you would think you're nowhere near any sort of major city. [00:30:26] Randall: Oh, yeah, that was one of the things I loved about living in San Francisco was if I needed to be out in the middle of nowhere, I could be so with no one around in 45 minutes over in the headphones.  [00:30:36] Craig: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:30:37] exactly. [00:30:37] So kudos to MLA for all the great photography and her partners on that trip. Super cool and amazing that they put it out there. [00:30:44] Randall: Yeah. And another thing just to mention with this too, is a. They're in the forum. And so if this is something you want to do embark on one of the motivations, there was to be able to go to a new region and just reach out to folks and say, Hey, what's the beta. Hey, does anyone want to join me for a segment?  [00:31:00] You know, one of the group rides going on and we've been seeing those dynamics, which is really cool.  [00:31:04] Craig: Yeah, exactly. [00:31:05] I mean, it's so it's, so it's so great that there are so many sites out there that are publishing adventures and things like that. But being able to talk to people, locals about current conditions or.  [00:31:17] You know, even advice for that. Ad-on you described down into the Santa Cruz mountains, like That kind of stuff. [00:31:22] is awesome. And invaluable. If You're going to spend. [00:31:25] a week of Your hard earned time and vacation and money in a particular area. [00:31:30] I don't know about you, but I, I just want to get the most out of it as, as possible.  [00:31:34] Randall: Yeah, and this is something that you know, a conversation that sprung up organically in the forum and that we're going to be looking to facilitate a lot more conversation around, which is. You know, the role of, you know, what might be called social media, just online tools for connecting with others generally in the cycling experience. And so what is, what is a healthy role? What are unhealthy roles and how do we create something that.  [00:31:58] Facilitates things that, that help people live live better in gets out of the realm of say what certain large players have been accused of credibly in terms of That's the same behavior that is not, is more in the interest of profit and shareholders. Then the the people that they've disk.  [00:32:14] Describe as users.  [00:32:16] Craig: Yeah. [00:32:17] that, that thread in the ridership's really interesting and some very thoughtful commentary. It's fascinating how different people view different platforms. You know, obviously you've got mainstream social media and then more cycling specific sites that kind of serve similar purposes. So it's something, you know, I know you think a lot about, I've thought a lot about.  [00:32:38] In the context of the ridership and and generally interesting how other people are expressing their sell themselves. And. What types of things they use and don't want to use. [00:32:49] Randall: Yeah. So this is something that you know, we're also considering how to evolve the, the forum as well. We built it in slack because that was the best. Tool available. But we're exploring other tools and add ons and things like this. And if this is a conversation that interests you we'd really love your, your feedback and it's, you know, that conversation is happening in the ridership. So come join us there and let us know how we can make it better.  [00:33:12] Craig: Yeah. [00:33:12] As always. [00:33:13] I mean, we are very open to your input about these episodes and any other episode of the gravel ride podcast.  [00:33:20] The ridership forum is something that, you know, we started from Our hearts but it's really a community run initiative. [00:33:26] and we want to evolve as the community wants us to and, and directionally where they want us to go.  [00:33:33] Randall: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:33:35] Craig: Yeah.  [00:33:36] Cool. [00:33:36] I think that's about it for this week's edition of in the dirt Randall. I appreciate your time as always.  [00:33:42] Randall: As always as well. Craig [00:33:43] Craig: And to all the listeners until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels. 

Part two of our first Q and A episode. Randall and Craig tackle questions submitted via The Ridership community. Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Episode Sponsor: Athletic Greens Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos): 00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to in the dirt from the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host. Craig dalton i'll be joined shortly by my co-host randall jacobs. [00:00:12] Today's episode is part two of our Q and a episode series. Go back in your feed, a couple episodes to find part one. You can certainly jump right into this episode as we're going question by question. And they don't necessarily. Have relation to one another but if you're interested in part one either after the fact or before you listened to this episode go ahead and jump back and listen to that episode. [00:00:36] Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at athletic greens. The health and wellness company that makes comprehensive daily nutrition really really simple. [00:00:44] A G one by athletic greens is a category leading superfood product, bringing comprehensive and convenient daily nutrition to everyone. Keeping up with the research and knowing what to do and taking a bunch of pills and capsules is hard on the stomach and hard to keep up with  [00:00:59] To help each one of us be at our best. They simplify the path to better nutrition by giving you the one thing with all the best things.  [00:01:06] One tasty scoop of ag. One contained 75 vitamins minerals and whole food sourced ingredients including a multivitamin multimineral probiotic green superfood blend  [00:01:17] And more in one convenient daily serving. The special blend of high quality bioavailable ingredients and a scoop of ag. work together to fill the nutritional gaps near diet. Support energy and focus. Aiden got health and digestion and support a healthy immune system. Effectively replacing multiple products or pills in one healthy delicious drink. [00:01:38] I think by now, you've probably heard my personal jam. I like to take athletic greens. First thing in the morning is to get a jumpstart on my hydration. As well as my nutritional needs. And i'm big ride days if i'm feeling super depleted i'll come home and have a second glass so on a saturday or sunday i might double up my servings  [00:01:58] If you're open to giving athletics greens, a try, simply visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride.  [00:02:05] Athletic greens has agreed to give a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs to any gravel ride podcast listener. So be sure to visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride. To give it a try today. With that said let's jump into part two of the q and a episode with randall [00:02:26] Craig: Next question was on optimizing the adjustment and float intention on SPD pedals. I don't think there's much we can add there cause it's a little bit of trial and error. In my opinion. I don't know about the float. I don't even know if mine has like float adjustment. For me it seems like it's just the tension. So I, how hard or easy it is to get in and out. And that's been something maybe I've amped up over time as I become more confident, but certainly starting them out with them. Fairly easy to disengage is perfectly acceptable if you're not comfortable with Clifton riding.  [00:02:57] Randall: Yeah. In terms of tension, I would definitely start with a looser engagement and then tighten it down as you get more confident, Especially when you're first starting out. And what else? Patrick and I actually talked about this in the bike fit episode. Hey recommending shifting the cleats back. So if you're running mountain style shoes, which the gravel bike probably should be if you can run them in the back, the bolts to the back then sliding the cleat. Pretty much all the way to the back. Now if that doesn't feel right, you can always move it forward a little bit, but whereas this new real problem with going too far back there can be issues with going too far forward in terms of biomechanics and so on. And in terms of the float, you want to be in the middle of the float and you never want to be in a position where the you're you're not able to peddle in a natural motion where you're using the cleat positioning to restrict your motion. That is a a good way to end up with an injury. So definitely don't do that. I generally will start with the cleats. In a position where it's restricting my inward motion so that my heel can't hit the crank arm. And then I'll peddle from there and see am I in the middle, middle of the float? Am I in my restricted any part of the pedal stroke? And if not, then that's a good starting point. But to really get this right again it is hard to do this on your own. It's hard to see knee tracking. In souls or thing you want to invest in, in order to help align the full stack from hip to knee through the ankle. And this is where listen to the bike, fit 1 0 1 episode and consider working with a bike fitter.  [00:04:30] Craig: I was just going to say the same thing. It's like one of those things like, oh, bike fit, you don't necessarily go to clique adjustment, but so often when I've observed it, cleat adjustment happens in a bike fit.  [00:04:41] Randall: And it doesn't happen first, right? Everything else has to be right first. So if your saddle's too low and your arches are collapsing and things like that, you're already starting with things out of alignment and are going to have some trouble, but at least the advice that, that I just gave will prevent the worst issues. But again, go get a bike fit.  [00:05:01] Craig: Yep. [00:05:02] The next [00:05:02] question. Yeah, The next question. [00:05:05] was about what's the best technique for using a dropper post? How does this help with the physics of the ride?  [00:05:14] Randall: I'll let you go first. I certainly have an opinion on this one.  [00:05:17] Craig: This is a dangerous one for us. The listener, the avid listener knows we can go into a deep dropper post where I'm whole, but let's try to offer some quick advice. One of the things I like to remind people about with respect to drop her posts is that it's not just a, all the way up or all the way down product. You've got the full spectrum of range, which means you should use it frequently. Obviously when you're in heavy tactical descents with steep, dicentric, you're going to slam it.  [00:05:45] But I quite frequently lower it just a centimeter to just give myself a little bit more room on terrain. Maybe it's a road descent or something that I'm super confident on, but it gives me a little bit more margin for error. And as I'm feeling maybe more nervous about the speed. I'll go down even further just to give myself again a bigger range of just a bigger margin of error. So practice, and no, there's no right or wrong, use it frequently and you'll figure out what feels best for you.  [00:06:15] Randall: You've seen my technique with the dropper. I'm a bit more extreme. So for me, I use the dropper all the time. I have it down all the way on a high-speed road descent, and I use it to allow me to, move my mass around on the bike in a way where, if I want the front end to be more planted, I can put more mass on the bars, but then I can shift my weight down and back over the rear axle to lighten up the front end for say, traversing, really rough terrain. Provides that distance between the bike and the body where your arms and legs can act as suspension. Your front wheel is rolling in sailing. Your rear is doing more of your speed control. And in this way, it really radically. Improves the capability of the bike, not just off-road, but I would argue on road as well. I descend much faster because I know I can grab a handful of both brakes and not be pitching over the handlebars. So for me, even on the road, I'm dropping it all the way in a lot of situations.  [00:07:08] Just because I like to go that much faster and it gives me that margin of safety.  [00:07:12] Craig: All makes sense. Next off, we're going to an area work. Gosh, Randall I almost think we need an entirely new category in the ridership forum just about tires. What do you think?  [00:07:25] Randall: We've been asked for this for a while. By the time this episode airs, if we don't have a channel in there, somebody yell at us in the forum, we'll get that up.  [00:07:35] Craig: The first question comes again from Tom boss, from orange county unicorn tires, lightweight, puncture resistance, fast rolling with lots of grip. What comes closest for you?  [00:07:45] Randall: I'm not getting in the weeds on this one. I defer to the hive-mind and the ridership on this. I can tell you what I ride. But I'm gonna make no claims about it being the optimal.  [00:07:56] Craig: Yeah, do. What are you writing in these days?  [00:07:58] Randall: so currently I'm writing just a WTB Sendero upfront and a venture in the rear. And these aren't especially fancy casings. They're not the most efficient tire. But they're pretty robust and they have great grip and I like the mullet setup. I'm a big fan of going with something NABI or upfront and like a file tread or even a semi slick, depending on your terrain in the back.  [00:08:20] And yeah, that's the way that I go. We actually just brought in some maxes, Ramblers and receptors. So we go a rambler small knob front and a receptor in the back. And I like the six 50 by 47 size. There are situations where I wish I could have a little bit more volume, other situations where I wish I had a little bit more efficiency, which tells me that I'm right in the middle of the range for most of the writing that I do.  [00:08:40] Craig: Yeah. For me. And first off, full disclosure to everybody, I'm a Panorai sir, brand ambassador. So I want to put that out there. The gravel king S K was a tire that I got on my first proper gravel bike. And I just fell in love with it. Then I left for many years and went on to more of a setup that you had rocking the Sandero up front.  [00:09:01] Thinking I was, riding more challenging terrain and could appreciate the knobs, which I did.  [00:09:06] But recently I've gone back to the gravel king as Kay. And I do find it to be a wonderful all around tire because I feel super fast on the road and it does everything that I needed to do in most of the situations that I get into.  [00:09:21] Randall: Yeah, sounds about right. And then there's always, if you're, if you had a really long ride out to the trail you could always, bring the pressure up a smidge on the way out there and then give it a little at the the Trailhead.  [00:09:34] Craig: Yeah. [00:09:34] And again, it obviously comes down to where you are and one thing I'll just note really quickly, and we've talked about it before is Riding fully select tires at a fat with has been remarkable to me how performance they can be. Off-road you think you need knobs, then all of a sudden you realize where you do need them, but actually if you change your riding style a little bit if you've got a fat rubber tire on there, you can go and do a lot of things. [00:09:59] Randall: Yeah, the dropper helps a lot with that. In terms of just being able to be more nuanced with your body English as you going over stuff. But yeah, I run 700 by 30 tubeless tires and I'll go out on hard road drives and then I'll pass it on to see a trail and be like, oh, what's over there, I must find out now and then to see. Go and do a little bit of adventuring. And you gotta pick, you gotta pick your lines. You gotta be careful not to hit anything, square, a square edge. That's gonna, bang up against your rim. But if you're if your pressure is high enough and you're gentle enough with your writing, you can do a remarkable amount. Most of the stuff that we've written in Marine together up written on slicks.  [00:10:36] At one point. Yeah. [00:10:38] not saying it's a good idea, but it's doable.  [00:10:41] Craig: True. And you enjoyed other parts of the ride and leaned into other parts of the ride, presumably more because that's, what the bike was oriented around on that particular day. And maybe you needed to nurse your way down Blazedale Ridge or something, but you got through it.  [00:10:55] Randall: Yeah, and it's definitely more of an uphill thing than a downhill thing.  [00:11:00] Craig: Yeah. [00:11:00] Randall: go uphill on dirt and then downhill on, on road, but okay. The, we went on a proper tangent there.  [00:11:07] Craig: Yeah, sorry. next?  [00:11:08] one. Next question is from Josh, from east Texas. It's around suppleness. Suppleness in tires is desired by riders. So how do I choose a simple tire without having to buy it and write it with no published measure of scale of suppleness on a given tire from the manufacturer we are left with only this tire field strop sample is TPI and indication.  [00:11:30] Why don't manufacturers provide consumers with this information?  [00:11:33] Randall: So I'm going to volunteer Ben Z and Marcus G in the forum as to people who seem to have written. Every tire I've ever heard of. And some that I haven't. And there are others in there that have as well. But yeah, I think this is a matter of finding out what other people like and kindly asking their opinion and experiences with it.  [00:11:52] Craig: Exactly. I think that's a good recommendation.  [00:11:55] Next question is from Tom Henkel and it's around tire pressure. He acknowledges that he tends to ride harder pressures than a lot of people seem to recommend, but he's also dented REMS and had to wrangle the, straighten them out enough to complete a ride. So he's nervous about bottoming out. How do you know how low is too low? Given the weight of the rider and width of the tire? Also, how does this vary by terrain type?  [00:12:17] Randall: The indication of how low is too low is really. He's denting his rims. And pinch flatting as well you can have two riders of the same weight on the same tires at the same pressure on the same terrain, one we'll be a little bit better at picking lines or at shifting weight around. And we'll be able to push the limits a little bit more. But if you're ponderous and steamrolling through things, then you might need to run higher pressures in order not to bang the rims. Now, if you're not already running the highest volume tires that will fit in your frame, start there for sure. And if you are, and you don't want to have to replace your bike, tire inserts, which is something that we haven't really talked about much. And is in its early days in gravel, but it's increasingly popular in mountain bike. And I'll be getting a set of these to try out. Isaac S in the forum loves his and he rides hard. He used to ride his gravel bike like a full-on mountain bike, and even cracked a rim once, and after he put in inserts he never had any trouble and he was actually pushing his pressures even lower. So those would be the recommendations. I have go biggest volume. You can and get some tire inserts.  [00:13:25] Craig: Yeah, that makes sense. [00:13:26] It's all trial and error and I am eager as, as well as the listener, I imagined to hear what you think of tire inserts. Cause I do think It's yet another interesting part of the equation that some riders may be able to play around with successfully.  [00:13:40] Randall: Yeah, it has the same effect as adding a little bit of suspension. If you can drop the pressure that much lower and have a two tiered suspension effect where you have the travel of the lower pressure tire, and then right before it bottoms out on the rim, you have this protective layer. So yeah, I think it makes a ton of sense, conceptually. So I'm excited to try it.  [00:13:58] Craig: Yeah, interesting stuff.  [00:14:00] Next question is another one from Kim brown. How do you go around choosing the right tire for the ride?  [00:14:05] I guess I make more like quarterly or seasonal decisions around this and live with it. I certainly have brought my beef feed set up bike two places in the middle of the country that didn't require such an aggressive setup. But it is what it is like I, I'm not super concerned but I imagine if you have the wherewithal and interest you can dig in and find the right tire for every single outing.  [00:14:32] Randall: Yeah. And you definitely again see people who seem to do that. And that's great. For me. I have a bicycle company and I have two wheel sets and I leave the same tires on until they burn out. I'll even take the Sendero Nabil upfront and when it starts to wear a little bit too much, I'll just move it to the back and put on another Nabil upfront.  [00:14:49] I mostly rabid I got, and I got the two we'll set. So I have 700 by 32 blitz and a six 50 by 47 mullet set up. And it's really more of a choice of which wheel package I'm going to go with then. Swapping around tires and things like that, which is a more seasonal or annual decision.  [00:15:05] Craig: Yeah. [00:15:06] Yeah. Yeah. Same. [00:15:07] Next one is probably I could've sat in the maintenance section of this conversation, but how do I deal with a pinch flat or puncture or some other common issue in a tubeless tire?  [00:15:16] Randall: Punctures. Dynaplugs, bacon strips. Make sure you have a good amount of sealant in there. And have a spare tube as a backup, if all that fails. If you've got a pinch flat in a tubeless tire if it's on the sidewall, then you know, you do what you can to get home. Sometimes a plug will work, but if it's in the sidewall, you're probably going to want to replace that tire versus in the meat of the tread where the rubber is a lot thicker, a plug can last for the remaining life of the tire. And last thing would be, if you really have a problem and you have a tear in the sidewall, a boot or even just jam putting a dollar bill or something in there so it doesn't continue to spread, just so you can get home, and maybe running lower pressure so it doesn't blow out the sidewall.  [00:16:00] Craig: Yeah.  [00:16:02] If we assume the question came from someone who knows how to change a two-bed tire and has been through that experience, just a couple of other things I would highlight that may not be known unless you've had to go through it. If you are replacing a tubeless tire with an inner tube, you do need to remove the valve core.  [00:16:19] First. And you can expect that if you have ample sealant remaining in said tire. It's going to be a messy situation.  [00:16:27] Randall: Yeah. [00:16:28] Craig: I don't know what the right thing to do is if you leave the sealant in there, but it's going to be all over you. It's going to be all over the place. It's just something you have to deal with as you get that tire and get your tube in there and find your way home.  [00:16:41] Randall: Yeah, all the more reason to get plugs and just have plugs with you because oftentimes you can get by with those.  [00:16:48] Craig: Yeah. A hundred percent. The first time you plug a tire, it's like a Eureka moment and you just top off the tire and continue on your way. And when it goes beyond that, then you're a very sad. And you will have to deal with quite a mess.  [00:17:02] Randall: There's a picture that think Isaac in the forum shared where he had a hole plugged with eight different plugs in the sidewall and he kept riding it for a while apparently. So Bravo maybe change that casing a little bit sooner. So though.  [00:17:18] Craig: Related to tires, we're going to move into a section on wheels. And matthew Wakeman ask, what kind of situations would be worth considering three wheel sets versus just two for do most of it? Bikes.  [00:17:32] Randall: So my thinking is the first wheel set is probably a wide 700 that can take everything from road to gravel tires and then a even wider six 50, that's more focused on gravel and adventure riding. And then an even wider two Niner that would be your mountain bike setup now, then. Then, that's getting into two bikes. So you have two bikes, three wheel sets between them. If you're just with one bike for everything, then if you're racing or if you're constantly switching between very focused road experience to a fast, hard packed gravel experience to a rugged. Bike packing adventure sort of experience, then it would make sense to maybe have two, seven hundreds and 1 6 50 B. It really would be another 700 slotting in the middle. There.  [00:18:22] Craig: Yeah, for me, it's really around. Tire selection on those wheel sets and yes, it would be a luxury and a full disclosure. I do have three wheel sets in the garage and I'm splitting hairs literally. It's because I'm too lazy to change the tire. And I have the luxury of having the third wheel so that so I've got my sort of NABI. Fairly narrow 700 C off-road sat that will only take me a limited amount of places from where I live. I've got my one that I spend most of my time on which presently is six 50 by 43. And then I've got a 700 with a 30 road tire on it. [00:18:59] And it's more like Totally when I only had two wheel sets, it was all good. Just choose between road and mountain and don't worry too much about it.  [00:19:07] Randall: I don't even have three wheels. That's Craig. Bravo.  [00:19:10] Craig: Next question comes from Craig. Oh I'm curious on the difference between six 50 B and 700 C and confused about boosts standards, wheels, hubs, rotors and whether it's worth the investment to pursue or just stick with my current wheels. Ideally, I was interested in putting faster, thinner type tires on my 700 C wheels that came with the bike.  [00:19:29] For all their road rides and a second set of six 50 B fatter grippier types for off-road fun. I think we've talked a lot about six 50 B versus 700 C on other podcasts and also on this podcast today. But I was interested in this question around standards, as someone who has a mountain bike, I was aware of boosts standards.  [00:19:50] What is going on with that with respect to gravel bikes and do we see a path towards a boost standard for gravel bikes or are there specific design considerations that make that not likely. [00:20:03] Randall: So we have one it's called road boost and it seems to have been driven by the emergence of e-bikes as a major category. And what boost does is it increases the spacing upfront 10 millimeters in the back. I believe by six. And it allows the flanges and the hub to be space more widely apart, so that you have more of a bracing angle and more lateral strength. So the same amount of spokes gives you greater lateral stiffness and strength. So that's the benefit now, does it matter for, gravel bikes of, running up to say like a 2.2 tire or even a 2.4 without suspension. It's pretty minor gains.  [00:20:46] I do think that we're going to see a transition towards road boost, which is a one 12 by one 10 upfront and a 12 by 1 48 in the rear. There's, trade-offs one of them being a well for pure road bikes. It's going to be trivially, less Aero, there's always the arrow marketing story . And then two in the back to you end up potentially having to increase the Q factor. Of the cranks. So most people actually benefit from more Q factor than the super narrow ones that used to be common on road bikes so it's not really a problem for most riders, but it's just like another design constraint. There's trade-offs is, are you have to fit a lot of things in a tight package and that's the issue, but it's out there, you see a couple bikes with it. Especially E road bikes and gravel bikes. And I think over time, you'll see that transition, but don't consider it an upgrade that you need to swap your bike to get. It's not mean it's not a meaningful thing in that regard, and you can get most of the benefits by just doing asymmetric rims, which, that's why we and others do asymmetric rims to downs the spoke tensions and angles. [00:21:49] Craig: Gotcha. I'm going to slip a personal question in that I'd put in the forum. How often should I grease the threads of my through axles if I change wheels frequently?  [00:21:58] Randall: Often enough so that there's always grease on them and no dirt. And if you have any where on the threads you should be doing it more often and use a FIC. FIC Greece. But if you get any dirt in there, like if you drop your through axle or something like that, now you have basically a grinding compound. In the threads. So you want to clean that up. But yeah, that, as with any interface, it will wear over time. So Greece is your way of allowing that interface to last longer than the bike.  [00:22:26] Craig: Yeah, great. We've got a question from Alex, from Tifton, Georgia. What's happening in the gravel scene to involve youth.  [00:22:33] Randall: You seem to be taking out junior. Fairly often on whatever kids bike with whatever tires it's got on there. I think that counts. [00:22:41] Craig: Yeah, I just want to expose my son to riding off road. And so he's still on a 20 inch wheel bike, but I've put some monster, like two, one tires that I found on it's like a monster truck for him, which I think he enjoys. I think it's the key to bring the youth through mountain biking and discover gravel versus prematurely introducing drop our bikes.  [00:23:06] Randall: Yeah. I'm of the same mind. I've a niece that I take riding in the same way and it's just like she has a 20 inch wheels kid's bike. And I just take her out on the dirt and get her comfortable riding on those surfaces and pushing her comfort zone to try new things. But then also just instilling this deep love of the adventure experience, which for me what we're calling gravel is really all about. It's like going and exploring the area where you live from an entirely different angle than you would get in a car or on foot.  [00:23:36] Craig: Yeah. Agreed.  [00:23:37] Randall: And then of course NICA. We have some coaches in the listenership. Then the new England youth cycling association, actually Patrick in Lee likes bikes are doing a skills clinic with them in October.  [00:23:48] So you have that. And then urban off-road bike parks. Lotta our kids in the city don't have access to trails. And so just providing that access, I think is critical. And there's an example of a McLaren bike park in San Francisco. It's in a part of the city that is pretty far from the bridge and pretty far from the Santa Cruz mountains. And so this would be it, and there is plans potentially to expand that. And building more urban bike parks I think is a big part of that as well.  [00:24:20] Craig: Yeah, for sure. And you bring a huge skill gain to gravel if you come from the mountain bike side. [00:24:27] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. And starting with a hard tail or even a rigid flat bar bike is a great way to go.  [00:24:33] Craig: A hundred percent. Next question comes from Alex in Columbia, Missouri. And it's a question about frame design. With the growing market of gravel. Where, when does the Aero slash race versus endurance market become two separate markets? Also how far do you think it'll go narrower tubing, et cetera. There seems to be a split already forming with Aero features being added to gravel bikes.  [00:24:57] Randall: I have strong opinions here, so I'm going to let you go first.  [00:25:00] Craig: Yeah. I think the brands are already splitting hairs with these categories as it is. And part of it is positioning vis-a-vis other competitive brands. Part of it is just the designer's vision for what this bike is intended to do. And those lines are blurry and murky and are going to come down to individual brand managers to execute on. So I think it's already a total disaster.  [00:25:27] Randall: I think most Aero claims, especially in gravel are entirely bunk. And it's marketing. And I'll give you an example. So on a road bike, a designer can control almost all of the parameters except for the rider, which ironically is the biggest one more than 80% of the aerodynamic profile, the tire with being a big one, right? So you can have your rim with, and your rim depth matched to the width of the tire. You can have the down tube optimized for that tire to end up really close to the front leading edge of that down tube and the down tube, it can be really narrow. So you have a smooth transition between, rim to tire, to frame in a way that minimizes turbulence. So with a road bike, it's more of a controlled system. And even then the gains are very marginal. And if you look at the. What marketers are usually claiming. If you add up all the Watts that you saved, you'd be traveling at a hundred miles an hour on all the different components you can buy. On gravel, it's worse because you, you have really wide tires. And so you'll have a deep section rim. With a big old tire on it and the tire is much wider than the rim. You're already having detachment of airflow as soon as it comes off that tire. There's a rule which folks can look up the rule of a hundred, 5%, which says that as long as the rim is a hundred, 5%, the width of the tire, then you can generally get good attach flow over the rim, regardless of that rims shape with certain shapes being marginally better. But that one oh 5% rule being more important. But if you have a big old tire on an arrow rim, all that at error rim is doing is adding weights and potentially increasing turbulence, especially in a crosswind where it's going to make it harder to steer. So that's my take on wheels. And then obviously handlebars and all that other stuff very marginal gains, especially given that it's not being designed as a system around the tires and so on.  [00:27:14] Aero helmet and rider position, rider positions the biggest thing that you can do, if you want to improve your. Arrow.  [00:27:20] Craig: Yeah. And I was looking at the question more, less, so about like aerodynamics and more just marketing and bikes in general. And seeing that. There's just a spectrum of bikes that are marketed in different ways. From endurance road bikes, to Aira road bikes, to arrow gravel bikes. I totally agree and understand your comments, and my comments are more just related to the market in general and how there's a plethora of things being directed at consumers and it's ever more confusing to figure it out.  [00:27:50] Fortunately with most quality gravel bikes, you do get this one bike that can do a ton of things. And bikes that you can configure in the way that you ride them. [00:28:02] Randall: Yeah, I think you'll see the incorporation of some functional arrow. There's no reason not to do a tapered head tube or certain other things, but it's such marginal gains. And really, it's hard to build an Aero bike if you're not controlling for the tire volume and given the divergence in tire sizes that these bikes use that's not a really a controllable variable in design.  [00:28:24] Craig: Yeah. So the final question comes from our friend Marcus in Woodside, California. What are your guesses about the big bike tech quantum leap forward coming next, similar in magnitude to.  [00:28:39] to e-bikes and olive green bib shorts.  [00:28:42] Randall: Marcus is a good friend. And I was definitely on trend with the big shorts there. Really, how do you top that? How does the industry come up with the next thing after olive green shorts?  [00:28:51] Craig: Nothing can make a rider faster or look better than all of Deb's shorts.  [00:28:57] Randall: So that's it. Marcus? I think that's the end of innovation in the bike industry. Yeah, this is a space that you know, that I've put a little bit, a bit of thought into. I'm going to let you go first here as well.  [00:29:07] Craig: I think that makes sense, because I agree this is a tailor made Randall question. I do think the continued use of electronic componentry and other electronics that we all use, has to lead to more integration in bicycles, whether it's like battery packs that are embedded in the bikes that can power both my components, my GPS computer, my headlamp, all these things. I feel like it's a natural point, just like we're seeing in every other element of our lives, where battery and power is required. These things start to appear in more innovative ways. So I think that's interesting.  [00:29:46] I think on the e-bike market, we're starting to see more and more of these bikes that not only is the battery removed, but also the engine, the sort of the motor part of the componentry comes out. So you start to get this bike that has assemblance of ability to ride without the component of it and it's not going to match a pure performance bike, but it may, for some people While still having that opportunity to use the e-bike functionality. So I think those are things that trends that we're definitely going to continue to see. And. And some more forward thinking thoughts.  [00:30:21] Randall: Yeah, I agree with that, and I have a little bit more nuance to add but I want to start with the big, low lying fruit, and we started doing this, Basic things like proportional, crank length. I find it nuts that the industry up until recently didn't really make anything smaller than a 1 65 crank and continues to not offer shorter cranks for shorter riders.  [00:30:41] This is one thing that we did, and then you now see FSA has done a good job of having offerings down to, I think 1 45. To accommodate smaller riders and so proportional, crank length. Proportional wheel sizes, I think is a big opportunity. There's no reason why, it's really small riders. Shouldn't have their wheels scaling to some degree. We already have a 26 inch size, so maybe for the biggest higher volume on an extra small bike, you'd run a 26 by 2.2 or something like that. You do need more tire options, but otherwise it would help to make that bike perform more like the bigger ones with a bigger rider on them. So those are two that I would really like to see.  [00:31:18] I'd like to see continued innovation on integrated quick on and off storage solution. So I think lightweight bags and so on are really slick. And I think that we'll continue to see innovation there. You mentioned electronics. I agree. And it's getting ridiculous with the number of batteries you can have on the bike.  [00:31:34] If you have a wireless shifting system, you can have a battery in each hood battery in each front and rear derailleur. You can have sensors on the bike each with separate batteries, a heart rate monitor, or the separate battery two lights with separate batteries, computer. It's silly and it adds a lot of cost and weight and complexity the system. So I think there should be a single battery on the bike and that there should be a universal standard that all components use. I don't think this is going to happen because everyone everyone wants to trap you into their particular walled garden, but that's a conversation for another day.  [00:32:04] But yeah, those are the big ones. And then lastly, self-contained bike systems that leave nearly nothing behind, maybe some sort of lightweight regenerative braking for this one battery. I would like to see. But first things first and then subtler suspension designs, which I think we're already starting to see with more compliance, like flexible components, you.  [00:32:24] Bar handlebar is built with a little bit of flex or a suspension stem versus going whole hog with a full on suspension fork, just to get 30 or 40 millimeters of travel.  [00:32:33] Did I answer your question? Marcus, let us know in the forum. Hope, hope you're satisfied with the answer. And what is the next color of big short. Greg, what do you think.  [00:32:41] Craig: That's putting me on the spot. Maybe like a tan might do something that makes you a little bit nude.  [00:32:47] Randall: Ooh. Yeah, that would be that everybody would be really comfortable seeing that. Yeah, I'm with  [00:32:53] Craig: dangerous territory.  [00:32:54] Randall: we will have various options to match everyone's skin tone. So we all look like we're riding in the nude.  [00:33:02] Trend leader, Craig Dalton.  [00:33:05] Craig: This was a heck of a lot of fun. [00:33:07] And it would not have happened without the community. So big shout out to the ridership community and to everybody who submitted questions. I'd love to see us do this again. So we'll probably set up a channel down the line and put the question out there again and see what's gets generated because it was a lot of fun chatting with you about these questions.  [00:33:25] Randall: Yeah, it's what we do on our rides only we've recorded at this time.  [00:33:29] Craig: Yeah, exactly. That's going to do it for us this week on behalf of Randall and myself, have a great week. And until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels. [00:33:42] 

This week we tackle our first Q & A episode from The Ridership Community. Randall and Craig tackle your questions in part 1 of 2 fun filled episodes. The Ridership Support the Podcast Book your free Thesis Bike Consult Automated transcription (Please excuses the errors): Episode 24 [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to in the dirt from the gravel. The ride podcast. I'm your host, Craig Dalton. And i'll be joined shortly by my co-host rental jacobs In this week's episode, we're tackling our first Q and a episode.  [00:00:14] We've mentioned the ridership community on a number of occasions on this podcast. It's a community that's full of vibrant questions all the time. So we thought we'd put out an ask to say, what are the things you want to learn about what should Randall an IB discussing? And we were overwhelmed by. By the number of questions we received.  [00:00:34] So much. So in fact that we're going to break this episode down into two parts. So today we'll focus on part one. And in the coming weeks we're released part two. [00:00:44] Before we jump into this week's episode, I'd like to thank this week. Sponsor Thesis bikes. As you know, Randall Jacob's my co-host in these, in the dirt episodes is the founder of Thesis bikes. Which you might not know is it's the bicycle I've been riding for the last let's say year and a half.  [00:01:01] Over the course of this podcast, I've had the opportunity to ride many bicycles and I keep coming back to my Thesis. As my number one bike in the garage, it really does deliver on the promise of a bike that can do anything. As many of, you know, I operate with two wheel sets in the garage. So I've got a 700 C wheel set with road tires on, and my go-to six 50 B wheel set for all my off-road adventures.  [00:01:26] In the many, many hours of conversation I've had with Randall, I've really come to appreciate how thoughtful he was in designing this bike and everything that goes in the Thesis community. Randall and the team are available for personal consults, which I highly recommend you take advantage of. If you're interested in learning more about the brand and figuring out how to get the right fit for your Thesis bicycle.  [00:01:49] In a shocking statement. I can actually express that Thesis has bikes in stock. It's something we haven't been able to say about a lot of bike brands these days during the pandemic. It's October as we're releasing this episode and they have bikes available for November delivery with the SRAM access builds. They also have frame sets available.  [00:02:10] So I encourage you to head on over to Thesis.bike, to check out more about the brand, the story. Cory and the product and book one of those free consultations with a member of the Thesis team. With that said, let's dive right into this. Week's. Q and a episode [00:02:25] Craig: Randall, how are you today? [00:02:26] Randall: I am doing well, Craig, how are you my friend?  [00:02:30] Craig: I am doing good. I'm particularly excited for this episode because it essentially came entirely from the Ridership community. We're doing our first ever Q&A episode.  [00:02:42] Randall: Yeah, people have a lot of trust in us, maybe too much in terms of our knowledge here. So we'll try not to get over our heads in terms of uh what we claim to know, but a lot of good questions here and hopefully we can answer most of them.  [00:02:54] Craig: Yeah, I think that's been one of the cool things about the ridership is I see these questions going on all the time and I quite regularly. See them answered by people Smarter than you and I in a specific area of the sport. They have particular knowledge about a specific region. So it's really cool to see those happening in real time, every day for the members of that community. [00:03:17] Randall: Yeah, everything from fit related questions where we have some experts in there. Professional fitters like Patrick Carey, who I just did the episode with just before this one, I was in there answering questions, but then also if you've got a question about tires, nobody's going to have ridden all of them, but somehow every one has been written by someone in the forum there. And it's one of our most popular topics.  [00:03:38] Craig: Yeah. And I've seen some really detailed, help transpire between members as well, just like random disc bait break problems or compatibility problems. And I'm always shocked when someone raises their hand digitally and start to answering a question saying, no, I experienced that exact same weird problem in combination of things. [00:03:57] Randall: Yeah, it really fits into the spirit of The Ridership in which embodied in that word was this idea of fellowship, like writers, helping writers. So it's been super cool to see that community develop organically. And so thank you all members who are listening, and to those who aren't in there yet, we hope you'll join us.  [00:04:15] Craig: Yeah. just head over to www.theridership.com and you can get right in and start interacting as much, or as little as you want. I think the uniqueness of the platform is it is designed inherently to be asynchronous. So you can put a question in there give it a little time to marinate and a couple of days later Get lots of answers. [00:04:35] This is pretty cool.  [00:04:36] Randall: And in addition to that, there's also rides being coordinated. So myself and another writer here in the new England area or leading a ride. And we have about 10 or 15 people who chimed in wanting to join. And we've seen quite a bit of that in the bay area as well. So that's another use case for this in addition to sharing routes and general bicycle nerdery.  [00:04:54] Craig: Yeah, it's super cool. [00:04:55] So this episode, we're clearly going to jump around a bunch. We've tried to organize the questions, so there's, there's some pairing around them, but these are questions that all came in from subset of individuals. So They are what they are and we wanted to jump on them. So with that, let's let's dive right in. Okay.  [00:05:12] Randall: All right, let's do it.  [00:05:14] Craig: Cool. So the first question comes from Keith P E. And he says, every time I go out for a gravel ride, I think why is this roadie where I'm like Rhonda trails when there's no podium to win or anybody watching. What is this obsession with wearing skin tight clothing in a sport that resides in the dirt.  [00:05:31] Randall: I don't know about you, but I'm just showing off.  [00:05:34] Craig: Your physique.  [00:05:35] Randall: My, my Adonis like physique, sure. It's just more comfortable for me. And I like to go pretty hard and I'm sweating a lot. And if I had baggier gear on, I would tend to have, potential issues with chafing and the like so for intensity I definitely find that the Lycra is a lot more comfortable.  [00:05:54] Craig: Yeah, I'm sorta with you. Like I do I desire to be that guy in baggy shorts and a t-shirt, but every time it comes down to it, I'm grabbing the Lycra. I think for me, there's a couple of performance things, definitely on the lower body. I appreciate the Lycra just cause I don't get any binding and less potential for chafing. So I'm like, I'm all about a big short for riding, unless it's a super, super casual outing for me.  [00:06:21] And then up top. I think it comes down to, I do having the pockets in the Jersey. So that sort of makes me tend towards wearing a Jersey, even if it's just solely to carry my phone in my pocket.  [00:06:34] Randall: And if you really want to be pro show up to an elite race and like a led Zeppelin t-shirt and some cutoff jorts, and hairy legs and just rip everyone's legs off that would be super impressive. But for the rest of us,  [00:06:45] If you ha, if you have those sorts of legs,  [00:06:47] Yeah, it would be very impressed. Send pictures in to the ridership. If you actually do that .  [00:06:50] Craig: Yeah. So you'll see me. You'll see me. Rock a t-shirt you. As a performance t-shirt instead of a cycling Jersey on occasion. And I just jam stuff into bags, but yeah, nine times out of 10, unfortunately I'm that Lycra. Reclad. Gravel cyclists. [00:07:06] Randall: MAMIL, I think right.  [00:07:08] Middle aged man in Lycra.  [00:07:11] I'm right behind in the age category.  [00:07:13] Craig: Second question comes from Tom Schiele. And forgive me if I mispronounced your last name, he'd love to get our insights into winter riding, especially tips for those of us in new England who go out on cold dark mornings.  [00:07:29] I'm going to, I'm going to go out on a limb here and Randall and say, it's probably not the guy. [00:07:32] from California that should be offering this advice.  [00:07:34] Randall: Let's have you go first for that reason.  [00:07:38] Craig: Look. I mean you, new Englanders will throw hay bales at me and make fun of me, but I do find it cold here. And it's all about layers.  [00:07:48] Randall: Okay. [00:07:48] Carry  [00:07:48] Craig: all about layers.  [00:07:49] Actually, in fact, I just got some great gear from gore and I was Scratching my head because it's really designed for way cooler Temperatures. [00:07:58] than I have available to me. So a fleece lined tight is something that's just outside of the weather that I'm going to experience as much as I'll complain about it being cold. But I do appreciate a thermal Jersey for the Dawn patrol rides and things like that.  [00:08:12] But for me, it's always come down to layering. And as someone who's Been around. [00:08:16] the sport for a while, what I really do like about my wardrobe today is I think I have a really good understanding about what to layer on for what temperature And having been in the sport long enough. I've just acquired a lot of clothing along the way. So I even go down to having.  [00:08:32] Like a thicker vest. Than just a standard thin, vast, and they're very nuanced and it's only because of, I had decades worth of clothing kicking around that I've really started to understand and embrace how each garment is for a particular degree temperature. And the layers will get me to a certain point.  [00:08:51] Randall: Yeah. I'm a hundred percent with you on layers. I like to go like Jersey and then maybe a base layer or older Jersey underneath add to that thermal sleeves a vest that has a wind breaking layer on the front. A balaklava. Is also a great thing to have when the weather gets a bit colder, one to keep your head warm and your ears warm, and to keep the wind off your face, but then also you can breathe through it. So you're preheating the air and when it gets bitingly cold, which I don't know, you may not have experienced this, but I've definitely written around the Boston area and five degree temperatures and you got, ice crystals forming on the front of it, but at least you're getting a little bit of that preheating first.  [00:09:29] Definitely wants some wind breaking booties. Wind breaking layers on the front of the body. Generally when it gets really cold. If you must, you could do like heat packs on the backs of your hands. So over your arteries, delivering blood. If you're in real extreme conditions,  [00:09:44] Let's see, Tom also mentioned riding cold dark mornings, which means low pressures for grip. And then also lots of lots of lights, lots of reflectivity. You definitely don't want to be caught out and that's a good general rule, but especially riding in dark conditions when people might be tired.  [00:10:00] And then what else?  [00:10:02] Craig: Going to add the other big thing that I really enjoy is a thermal cap with the little flaps over the years, I find that really just, keeps the heat in there.  [00:10:11] Randall: Yeah, that's a nice intermediate solution before it's too cold to expose your face.  [00:10:16] Going that route. Other things pit stops with hand dryers. So I knew where all the Dunkin donuts were along my routes. I could just go in there on a really cool day and just dry off and heat up. People around here sometimes like in embrocation, gives you like a Burnie tingling sensation on the skin.  [00:10:30] Vaseline. It's actually a big one. It helps with insulation on exposed skin and helps it from getting dried and raw and so on. So I'll put Vaseline on my face and that actually makes a big difference in keeping me warm. And I don't find that it has any negative effects on my skin, my pores and things like that.  [00:10:48] I'm trying to think. Did we miss anything? Oh, tape the vent holes on your shoes. That's a big one. 'cause even with booties sometimes the holes will still, oftentimes the holes will still be exposed. And so close that up. Otherwise you just going to get air flow into the shoe and you'll know exactly where it's coming from. Once you get on the road.  [00:11:08] Craig: Yeah. And I remember. When all hell broke loose. I would even stick my foot in a plastic bag and then put it in the shoe.  [00:11:16] To get a little extra warmth. I don't necessarily recommend that. And I do know and aware em, aware that, you can get like Russ socks now in different kind of obviously wool is a great material to have underneath your shoe. It, yeah. [00:11:28] Randall: I love wool and I'll take like old wool sweaters and stuff and cut the sleeves and then put it in the dryer to shrink. So it's tight against the body and that'll be a base layer. Cause it's just great for loft and for wicking. So if you're trying to be cheap, that can be a way to go about it.  [00:11:43] Craig: I'm Now like off in my head, imagining sleeveless Randall in a tight fitting wool sweater. And it's more reading burning man then cycling performance.  [00:11:54] Randall: with the jorts, I might show up at a race near you.  [00:11:56] Craig: Our next couple of questions are from Alan Collins and the first one's around everyday carry. What do you always carry with you on every ride tools, parts, spares, pumps, hydration, snacks, gels, et cetera. Are you traveling light or packing an RV?  [00:12:14] Randall: So I'm now back in new England, so I'm often relatively near civilization, so I'm not as comprehensive as I would be say, like riding in Marine where I might be a good five, six mile walk over some mountains to get to anywhere. But critical things. I bring plugs like tire plugs. In my case, dynaplugs bacon strips, same deal.  [00:12:36] Spare tube. A tool that has all the critical things I need. If you're one of our riders, make sure you got a six mil on your tool because that's what you need for your through axles. What else? If there's any risk whatsoever. Me getting caught out in the dark. I'll have lights front and rear might as well.  [00:12:54] I'm trying to think of anything else that I always bring along. That's the key stuff. How about you?  [00:12:59] Craig: Yeah, I'm a mid-weight packer. Like I've really embraced that quarter frame bag. So I just tend to be ready for most eventualities that I expect. And obviously I gear up depending on the amount of hours I plan on being out. I tend to bring one nutritional item per hour that I'm going to be out. Obviously if I'm going out for an hour, I tend to be forgetful about hydration and nutrition. I don't really think too much about it.  [00:13:26] But I do think about it in terms of the number of hours I'm going to be out and then building Certainly my nutrition and hydration on top of that.  [00:13:33] my basic everyday carry same with you. I just want to make sure I can handle. [00:13:37] the most likely kind of repair scenarios out there on the trail. And I don't go overboard with it. There's probably many more things I would bring on a bike packing trip than I do on a five-hour ride.  [00:13:50] Randall: Yeah.  [00:13:51] And one thing I forgot to mention.  [00:13:53] Yeah, we did the everyday carry in the dirt episode nine. So listen there. That's where we go. Deep nerd on all the things. If you want a comprehensive list of what you might bring. The other thing, I don't know if I mentioned a pump. Duh. So I forgot that one there.  [00:14:06] Craig: Pump and CO2 for sure. [00:14:07] Randall: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:14:08] But otherwise it really depends on the ride. These days, I'm doing mostly like hour and a half, two hour higher intensity rides actually oftentimes even shorter, lower intensity rides. So I don't need to bring as much. But I'll where you are, you have micro-climates all over the place on Mount Tam.  [00:14:23] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. So. I'm always rocking like a full spare jacket in there, unless I'm going out mid day, which is rare these days. I just figure if I'm going downhill, I might as well be warm and it just makes it more pleasant. So that's why, again, like I have that quarter frame bag and I just jam it full of stuff.  [00:14:40] After our everyday carry episode, I did get a magic link. Cause it's it's nothing like this. Obviously no weight. And I just threw it in there. [00:14:48] Fortunately, I haven't had to use it, but it's there. If I ever did need it. [00:14:51] Randall: Oh, you don't have the technique for breaking the chain and being able to piece it back together without the magic link.  [00:14:57] Craig: I'm fairly skilled at that, But I don't have a chain breaker that I bring with me.  [00:15:01] Randall: Got it. Okay.  [00:15:02] Craig: Yeah.  [00:15:04] Alan's next question was, do you have any tips for prepping a gravel bike for competition in road, gravel mix or cyclocross?  [00:15:11] Randall: Don't do it the night before.  [00:15:14] Craig: Yeah. I I think there's a couple of different ways to go with this question, right? Obviously if you're a cross specialist, there's going to be lots of things you're going to do. For me, if I got the courage to raise cross again, I would just show up with what I got and I wouldn't really mess with it too much.  [00:15:29] Randall: Yeah, I would do basic checks. A couple of weeks out, I would just be making sure that I don't have anything that's about to fail because especially now parts are a challenge to find in many cases, even brake pads. And in fact, if you don't already have a set, get some extra brake pads, just have them around just in case.  [00:15:47] But otherwise checking chain lengthen and the lubrication making sure the sealant and the tires. I'm having all my gear and kit and nutritional stuff laid out, making sure the brake pads have have enough life in them. This sort of thing would be the basics. And I would do this several days in advance and I would make sure to get a ride in before I actually did the race, just to make sure that I didn't mess up anything that's going to bite me later. Like the worst thing you can do is be working on your bike the night before, or the morning of, and then, potentially miss something or break something or have to replace something.  [00:16:18] Craig: Yeah, I forget who I was listening to. It might've even been kate Courtney or perhaps a professional female gravel rider who was saying they arrived at actually the Sarah Sturm. Sorry. She arrived at the start line of an event and realized that her brake pads were totally thrashed. And her mechanic slash partner said. [00:16:39] I'm going to change them right now. And that would stress me the heck out.  [00:16:43] But he did add new successful. She's Thank God. because I never would have been able to stop on the way downhill. I was swapping bikes from one, the one I had written the other day and just didn't think about it.  [00:16:54] Randall: All right, everyone you've been warned.  [00:16:57] What have we got  [00:16:58] Craig: reminds me, I need to get an order in for some brake pads, because I'm definitely reaching the end of the life of the current ones.  [00:17:06] All right. So the next couple of questions are from Ivo Hackman, and he's asking thoughts on red bull entering gravel with a race in Texas. I don't know if you caught this Randall, but it was calling strict Lynn and pacing pace and McKell then. I have bonded together and are doing a race out of Marfa, Texas that red bull is sponsoring, which is, I a natural because both of those athletes are red bull sponsored.  [00:17:31] Randall: So I'm assuming like extreme gravel jumps, flips things like this. It's just the evolution of the sport.  [00:17:38] Craig: Exactly. I think, both those two guys are so grounded in the culture of gravel racing And in my opinion have been good stewards of conversation as we bring these mass star gravel events forward. I think it's great. I think the bigger question probably within this question is about is red bull coming in as an, as a quote unquote, an Advertiser and sponsor of the event. Is that somehow changing the Experience, is it becoming more corporate? Is it something other than the community wants to see? Again, with those two people involved. I think it's a positive thing.  [00:18:12] Randall: Yeah, I don't see it as a problem, even if it's not not any, my personal thing, for me, I love the really local. Really community oriented events that are much more like mullet rides and yeah, this is a little bit of a competition going on upfront, but it's not a huge deal.  [00:18:27] And, we definitely do see more of a professionalization of gravel. There's a space for everyone and there's a space for different types of events. So I don't see them displacing the events that are even more kind of grassrootsy. So yeah, I don't have a problem with it, especially if they end up doing flips.  [00:18:45] Red bull.  [00:18:47] Craig: The next question from Ivo is how to transition from weekend warrior to competitive rider.  [00:18:54] I feel like I'm better suited to answer the reverse question, to move from a competitive rider to weekend warrior. That one is easy.  [00:19:02] Randall: Yeah. Let's see. Step one. Have a kid.  [00:19:06] Craig: Yeah.  [00:19:07] Randall: That'll That'll take care of that in a hurry.  [00:19:09] Craig: Yeah. For me, this trend, it's all about structure.  [00:19:13] Like I, and I don't have any or much in My writing anymore, but I recognize in listening to coaches and Talking to them, it really is all about structure. And Even if that structure just means. You have one specific interval training session a week, and then your long endurance rides on the weekend to me, by my likes, I think you'll see a lot of progression. And as you progress, I think then you start to see the potential for coaching, more multi-day structured program in your week, If you're willing to go down that route. But to me, from what I've seen first stop is intervals.  [00:19:50] Randall: Yeah. Structure. Intervals is. Is one. And then within the context of a period iodized training program, Which is to say you do different types of training at different times during the season, based on the amount of training time you have available and the events that you're preparing for, because there's no sense in doing a lot of intensity several months out from a race and then, be firing on all cylinders, say, three months out and then just be totally kicked by the time your van comes around, you have that build, you do base training, and then you're doing more tempo. And then towards the events, your hours are going down and your intensity is going up and you're really trying to peak for that specific event.  [00:20:33] The book that was one of the Bibles when I was racing some time ago was Joe Freels I think it was called like the training and racing Bible or the mountain bikers, Bible or something. A book like that would be a good starting point. And then if you have the budget working with the coach, especially early on to really just accelerate your learning and to get someone to bounce ideas off of, and to use them as a way of learning your body. And that last part I would add at the very least heart rate monitor, learn how your body responds to stress, but then a power meter as well It's just a tremendously helpful tool and they're cheap. Now you need a four I power meter bonded onto a lot of cranks for 300 bucks. So there's really no reason not to make that investment if you're spending all this time to train and to, go to events, 300 bucks is pretty low lying fruit.  [00:21:25] Craig: Yeah, it is a great source of truth. Having a power meter. [00:21:29] For sure.  [00:21:29] Randall: yeah. One last thing would be a bike fit, actually if you haven't done it already, I think everyone should invest in a bike fit if you're doing any reasonable amount of riding, but if you're gonna be racing and training and trying to squeeze out every last bit and not get injured go get yourself a bike fit.  [00:21:44] Craig: Next question, moving on to what we've deemed at components category. JC Levesque probably pronounced that wrong. Sorry jC, appreciate the question he's asking. What about handlebars? There's a move towards wider flared bars and gravel and a few odd ones out there. There's the kitchen sink candle bar from our friends at red shift. The coefficient bar. From our friend, Rick Sutton. Obviously he's mentioned the canyon hover bar, although that isn't an add on it's integrated into that bike.  [00:22:14] But he asked him maybe worth going over the different expectations are for drop bar bikes that is tackling. Gravel versus pavement versus term.  [00:22:22] Randall: Sure you want to. Take a stab at this first.  [00:22:26] Craig: So for me, I think we're going to continue to see more and more riders explore Wider and flared bars. Like when I jumped on that trend and went out to a 48 millimeter with a 20 degree flare, I immediately felt more comfortable. My orientation as a gravel cyclist is towards rougher terrain, More like pure off roady kind of stuff. So I really appreciate. Appreciated that with.  [00:22:52] It is a pretty easy component to you forget about when you get a bike, right? So many things are going through your mind when you're buying a bike. The handlebars just the handlebar it comes with. If you're working with a good shop from a good direct manufacturer, they're going to ask you appropriate questions about what width you should get. But I do think there's going to be this continued trend towards exploring these different types of bars as the gravel market continues to see people ride these bikes in different ways.  [00:23:21] Randall: Yeah, I generally agree. And I think it's a good thing. I'm not sold on the extremes of flare. I just don't see it as necessary. There's not so much torque being delivered through the steering column when I'm riding, even on technical terrain that I'm finding myself needing more control. With a dropper post of course that's the big caveat, right? Cause that's lightening up the front wheel taking, mass off of that front wheel, putting it on the back, allowing the body to access suspension more. So that helps a lot in reducing the need for leverage. We do a 10 degree flare and I find that for me, that's the max I can do with a traditional flare and I was still having my hands in a comfortable position. And I actually find that flair is helpful in terms of my risk comfort in hand comfort.  [00:24:06] And you see this as a trend, actually on road bars to, four to six degrees of flare on road bars starting to happen. You also see a trend towards leavers coming standard with a bit of kick out a bit of flair at the lever itself which goes along with these trends. The thing that I'm actually really interested in is bars like the 3T Aero Ghiaia. I think that's how it's pronounced.  [00:24:26] This bar has a pretty compound bend. So it's relatively standard on the hoods, but then flares out below the hoods and gives you that extra leverage while at the same time giving you more of a roadie position on top. And I really like. Sticking with this one bike trend and making, keeping these bikes as versatile as possible, just because they can be. And in the case of that bar, it's also that arrow profile, I don't think is super important. Frankly, people overblow the value of arrow and we can talk about that. But, it's certainly not a problem. And that arrow profile probably gives it some more vertical flex.  [00:25:02] And I think that's actually a great way to get some additional compliance on gravel bikes is to have some flare in the wings of the bar.  [00:25:10] Craig: Yeah, I think you're right. I think people are going to continue to explore that. It's a market that I think is tricky for manufacturers to play in because people are so entrenched with what they know and have, and exploring some of these new trends can often be costly. It might be $100 to $300 to get a handlebar and try it out. [00:25:31] Randall: Yeah. For. $400 plus in some cases you can spend a lot of money on a carbon bar.  [00:25:36] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. A related question comes from east bay grants. Just question on Aero bars and gravel.  [00:25:42] Randall: Yeah. Pretty trivial gains. All in all. If you're going to be spending money on, even just on arrow, get an Aero helmet. I think that would be a bigger impact. Then arrow, handlebars. These are just very marginal gains and I wouldn't at all compromise ergonomics or control in order to go arrow. So if you're already getting a new bar and there's an arrow version and a non arrow version that you like. And there aren't any other compromises sure. Go with the arrow version, but I don't think that this is where your low lying fruit is.  [00:26:17] Craig: Yeah. I was reading it as arrow bar extensions on the handlebar and my perspective is it just depends on what you're doing at the end of the day. If you're hauling across the Plains for 200 miles, I understand having a variety of hand and body positions is required and useful, and I'm all for it. If you're ripping around Marin I think you're going to find that you never.  [00:26:39] You never set your arms in a gravel bar if you're actually in the dirt, but that's just where I live.  [00:26:44] Randall: Without, now that you've reframed the question. Yeah, they definitely has their place. And in addition to offering another hand position that's particularly useful if you're just bombing down a really straight road and into a headwind it can be a real aerodynamic advantage there. It also gives you another place to secure gear too. So if you're doing extended bike packing tour. It has that added benefit. There's a place for it, for sure.  [00:27:08] Craig: Yeah. Next question comes from our friend, Tom boss from Marine county bike coalition. He was out riding and he mentioned that he was thinking about how things get named in the cycling world. And how his gravel bike. If he thinks of as an adventure bike effectively, the way he rides it. And then he had a funny note is just about why clipless pedals are called clipless when there's actually no clip.  [00:27:32] Randall: Yeah.  [00:27:33] Craig: Actually. Yeah. So anyway. I think this is something you've been on about the naming convention in cycling, just about these bikes being adventure, bikes, more than anything else. [00:27:42] Randall: Yeah, it's really like adventure is what we're doing with it. Gravel is one type of surface that we're riding. And I like the idea, granted not only a subset of bikes fall into this category, but we call our bike a onebike. And I think bikes like the the allied echo, the servo, a Sparrow, and a few others fall into this category of being, an endurance road or even in the case of the echo,  [00:28:07] borderline, crit type geometry that you can achieve. While at the same time being very capable for adventure riding. And for that type of bike, you could call it a one bike, but then otherwise, what is being called a gravel bike on the more off-road technical end of the spectrum. I think it's an adventure bike.  [00:28:23] And in fact even if it doesn't has have bosses and other accommodations for bags and bike packing. A lot of these bags and so on, or you can strap on or mountain other ways. So you could go and do some adventuring with it.  [00:28:36] Craig: Yeah, I think they, these names. Of category starts to take hold at the grassroots level and then manufacturers just get behind them. And certainly in the early days of the quote unquote gravel market, It was just easy to call it gravel as opposed to road or mountain.  [00:28:54] Presently, obviously we can acknowledge there's so many, there's so many nuances there and there's this spectrum of what gravel means. So yeah, they are adventure, bikes, plain and simple. But I guess I understand where gravel came from.  [00:29:06] Randall: What's good though, is we have another category, right? So we can get you to buy an adventure bike and a gravel bike and endurance road bike, and a crit bike and a cyclocross bike. And even if all these bikes could be the same bikes. Let's not tell anyone because that gets them to buy more bikes. I think that's the marketing perspective on some of the naming conventions.  [00:29:26] Craig: Next up comes a series of questions from Kim ponders. And we should give a shout out to Kim because she's the one who really set this off. She actually recommended and suggested in the ridership forum that, Hey, why don't you guys do a Q and a episode? And I immediately thought that great idea, Kim, I'm all about it. [00:29:44] Randall: Yeah. Thanks, Kim.  [00:29:46] Craig: So our first question is what should I do not do to avoid damaging a carbon frame?  [00:29:52] Randall: So I'll jump in on this one. Carbon is strong intention, but not in compression, so never clamp it in a stand or sit on the top tube, use a torque wrench, always. And avoid extreme heat sources like car exhausts, which generally isn't a problem with frames because they don't end up in the main stream of the exhaust, but is definitely a problem with carbon rims.  [00:30:13] We've seen a number of molten rims. And it's usually they fail at the spoke holes first. Cause there's just so much tension on those spokes that as soon as the resin starts to transition. Into more of a liquid glass it immediately starts to crack at the rims that'd be my main guidance for carbon generally.  [00:30:32] Craig: And as we've talked about it a little bit before on the podcast, I think as a frame designer, You're layering in carbon, in greater, greater levels of material in more sensitive areas.  [00:30:44] But you are. Yeah. [00:30:45] So like your, your down tube and by your bottom bracket. They can take a ding from a rock and they're going to survive. [00:30:52] Randall: Generally. Yes. So if you're kicking up a lot of rocks, adding a layer of thicker film is definitely a good idea. We put a very thin film on ours. It's mostly to protect the paint. And then film on the insides of the fork plates seat stays and chain stays where the tire passes through.  [00:31:08] I can save you a lot of grief. If you end up with mud caked on your tires. Cause that'll just grind right through the paint and potentially to layers of carbon. So we do that stock for that reason. And it's a good idea. If you don't already have it, get yourself some 3m protective film.  [00:31:22] Craig: Yeah, and for me, I actually run it's essentially a sort of protective sticker layer from a company called the all mountain style and they just, in my opinion, do great visual designs. And check them out because personally, I love when you look underneath my, down to that, you see this. Digital cammo kind of thing on my nice pink bike.  [00:31:43] Randall: Yeah, it's rad. It's definitely a way to pretty things up.  [00:31:47] Craig: Next question from Kim is their basic regular maintenance checklists that I should be aware of. You things I should check every ride every month, every season, every year.  [00:31:57] Randall: Yeah. When you got.  [00:31:59] Craig: I think there's a lot there, obviously, we've talked about the importance of making sure your chain is lubed your tire pressure. Those are the things I check every single ride. Be aware of how your brakes are changing and performance. So keep an mental eye on.  [00:32:14] Your brake pads and how they're wearing, I'm not going around tightening bolts at all. Unless I've removed something, I'm not really messing with Any of that. I do find my Thesis to be pretty much ready to go. As long as I'm paying attention to the tire and the chain lube. [00:32:31] Randall: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's about right. I would add to that, check the chain length every so often. And there's a question in here about how to do that. Get one of these go-no-go gauges. I've got the the park tools, CC three.  [00:32:44] There's a bunch of good ones out there. And if it has multiple settings to check, go with the most conservative one. Swap your chains early and often, because it will save you a lot of money on your expensive cogs and cassettes.  [00:32:58] And it'll just make everything perform better. And then every so often, if you feel any looseness in your headset, that's a common thing that will come up over time, potentially just, just check that every so often. If you feel any looseness, you want to tighten it up early. So it doesn't start to wear down the cups or things like that.  [00:33:14] Craig: Yeah. And if you can afford it and you don't have the skills in your own garage, definitely bring it in for an annual tune-up. I think the bikes are going to come back working great and you've got some professionalize on them. [00:33:26] Randall: Yeah.  [00:33:26] Craig: Next question. Kim asked was what's the best way to pack a bike for air travel.  [00:33:31] Randall: So if you try to be. The cheapest option for the packaging. Cardboard box. And if you're not doing it frequently, that's a good way to go.  [00:33:41] Craig: Yeah, agreed. There's a reason why every bike manufacturer in The world is shipping with a cardboard box. As long as you protect the bike. Inside the box with some bubble wrap or some additional cardboard, they generally arrive where they need to go intact and safe. And I've had multiple occasions where I've used the cardboard box on an outbound trip and the box is Perfectly intact for the return trip. [00:34:05] Randall: And we should say specifically. Carbo box that a bike would have come in. Cause generally this'll be a five layer corrugated box. It'll be a thicker material. And if you need to reinforce it with some tape, At the corners and so on. And if you get, if it gets a hole in it, patch up the hole, but you can go pretty far with the cardboard box.  [00:34:24] I have a post carry transfer case, which I love, it's a bit more involved. I got to pull the fork and it takes me usually about 15 minutes or so. 20 minutes to pack it up, and to squeeze some gear in between the wheels and the frame and things like that.  [00:34:38] But I generally get past any sort of oversize baggage fees and I have the bigger of the two bags too. So oftentimes I don't even get asked what it is and if I get asked, it's oh yeah, it's a sports gear. Massage table. Yeah, whatever.  [00:34:50] Craig: That's the key for me that post carry bag or or, okay. This is another company that makes one of these bags where as you said, you've got to do a little bit more disassembly, whereas typically it might've been take the handle Bazaar off the pedals and your wheels, and you can get into a cardboard box. Would these particular smaller bags, you do need to pull the fork, which seems incredibly intimidating. When you first talk about it, but in practice, it's actually not. [00:35:15] Randall: It's not too bad. Probably the biggest issue is if you have a bike with integrated cabling, Then it can be a real nightmare. And in fact I might even go as far as to say, if you don't know what you're doing, don't mess with it. A bike with external cabling, or at least partially external, like our bike, you just have to be careful not to kink the hoses. That's the big, probably the biggest city issue, kinking the hoses, or bending the housings and cables in a way that affects the breaking or the shifting.  [00:35:44] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. If you've, if your cables are particularly tight, It then becomes a problem. I think my routing is just on the edge. I do feel like I'm putting a little bit of stress. On the cables when I'm disassembling in that bag, but so far so good. [00:35:58] Randall: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:59] And then of course you have the full sized bags where if you don't care about paying the airline fees, then get one of these was it Evoque I think makes a really nice one that has good protection there's a bunch of companies that make good ones where you just  [00:36:11] Craig: Yeah, I've.  [00:36:12] Randall: the front wheel and throw it in.  [00:36:14] Craig: I've got a Tulay one that is like bomber. It's got like a through axle slots, but one it's hard as hell to move it around. And two, I got dinged on both weight and access size on my trip to Africa. It's out. I was pretty ticked. [00:36:31] Randall: Yeah. And then the other thing is on the other end can you get it into the trunk of a cab. And so that's actually another advantage of bags like the post transfer case in the oral case ones is you can. I think I know the post one has backpack straps, and then you can fit it in the boot of pretty much any vehicle.  [00:36:49] Craig: Yeah, totally under emphasized attribute and benefit of those types of bags. Totally agree. [00:36:54] Like you can get into a sedan. With a, a Prius, Uber Lyft driver and make it in. No problem. [00:37:00] Randall: Oh, yeah.  [00:37:01]  [00:37:01] Craig Dalton: Pardon the segue that's going to do it for part one of our Q and a episode. I thought that was a great time to break and we'll jump into another half hour of questions and answers in our next episode of, in the dirt, which we'll release in the coming weeks. As always, if you're interested in communicating with myself or Randall,  [00:37:20] Please join the ridership www.theridership.com. If you're able to support the podcast, your contributions are greatly appreciated. You can visit, www.buymeacoffee.com/thegravelride to contribute in any way you can to support the financial wellbeing of the podcast. If you're unable to support in that way, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated.  [00:37:46] On any of your favorite podcast platforms. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels. 

Paul and Craig talk about Craig's newest project: his book Conscious Life Conscious Death! Transcript Transcribed by AI (not 100% accurate) [00:00:00] This is the two guys talking Fresno podcast, the podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig sharp, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers and Paul gin, a transplant Freston, who's lived in Fresno for more years than he has it. And he wouldn't live anywhere else. It's time for two guys to talk Fresno. Here's Craig and Paul on the two guys talking Fresno podcast. Paul: Here we are long time. No, see Craig. I know, Craig: but I'm wearing the same shirt today. One of those pictures, I only have two shirts. So I guess the odds are that I'd be wearing the same shirt Paul: I do too. I'm wearing my Fresno Grizzlies Like this is an old school, Fresno baseball. T-shirt from way back when, and it's perfectly comfortable. Oh, it's the perfect, [00:01:00] t-shirt perfectly Craig: new crying. You cry when you first feel that first hole or see that the seams are starting to go. Paul: Yeah, I've got a couple that I still have the hole in, but I'm still keeping them anyway because it just feels so nice to wear. So, but then with two guys talking Fresno, I can act like this is theme oriented rather than comfort, so right. Have Craig: you planned Paul: it ahead? Yes, exactly. So we haven't done a lot of podcasts lately, but here we are back and we're going to jump back into it. Craig: That's good. Yeah, we both needed a little break last year was, uh, not only COVID but politics and all that stuff. And I think we were just worn out. Paul: Yeah, I think, I think we needed that debrief time. Everybody needed that. And then it kind of ran its course. And I, I think we got through the election and that guy wasn't reelected and we all kind of yeah, Craig: yeah. [00:02:00] Until January. Paul: Yeah. It's not to say there wasn't craziness in the midst there, but, uh, and still is, but the good news is we're going to get back to talking a little bit more about Fresno. We had to talk COVID we had to talk politics and now we can talk forever. Craig: Yeah, well, we had to some of our, uh, great, uh, listeners or Watchers, you know, commenting saying more Fresno stuff, more Fresno stuff. So that was a good reminder for us. And we do listen to your comments or read your comments and, and take that to heart. And that's what we started for. So you just brought us back to where we meant. Yeah. Paul: And if people have ideas, post them on our Facebook page or send us an email through the website to guys fresno.com and let us know what you'd like for us to talk about, because we are getting back to being two guys talking about Fresno. And today, Craig, I'm really excited because we're going to talk [00:03:00] to a great Fresno author. He's fairly new to the, uh, the, the title of author, but it's been coming for quite a while, but he's very well known by presidents, Craig: right? Well, we will see you're turning the tables on me. Paul: I wrote my book. I got to be a guest on the show and today our very, very special guest is author Craig Sharpton. Welcome to the show, Craig. Craig: Thanks Paul. It's a, it's an interesting process. That's for sure. Paul: Go ahead. Craig: Well, I always, you know, I, every time someone becomes an author, I always say there's, you know, 98% of the people are working on a book and there's a few that, that actually get it to be a product. And I always admired that people. So, uh, but I've got to say, it's, it's a weird feeling. When you say you're one of them, you see your baby in [00:04:00] print. It's very strange. Isn't it? It Paul: sure is. And the book is called conscious life conscious death. It's a, that's an intriguing title for sure. Do you have it with you? Can you hold it up? Craig: I said, so lighthearted comedy, a little, Paul: little tome conscious life, conscious death.

About CraigCraig McLuckie is a VP of R&D at VMware in the Modern Applications Business Unit.  He joined VMware through the Heptio acquisition where he was CEO and co-founder. Heptio was a startup that supported the enterprise adoption of open source technologies like Kubernetes.  He previously worked at Google where he co-founded the Kubernetes project, was responsible for the formation of CNCF, and was the original product lead for Google Compute Engine.Links: VMware: https://www.vmware.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/cmcluck LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigmcluckie/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part my Cribl Logstream. Cirbl Logstream is an observability pipeline that lets you collect, reduce, transform, and route machine data from anywhere, to anywhere. Simple right? As a nice bonus it not only helps you improve visibility into what the hell is going on, but also helps you save money almost by accident. Kind of like not putting a whole bunch of vowels and other letters that would be easier to spell in a company name. To learn more visit: cribl.ioCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Craig McLuckie, who's a VP of R&D at VMware, specifically in their modern applications business unit. Craig, thanks for joining me. VP of R&D sounds almost like it's what's sponsoring a Sesame Street episode. What do you do exactly?Craig: Hey, Corey, it's great to be on with you. So, I'm obviously working within the VMware company, and my charter is really looking at modern applications. So, the modern application platform business unit is really grounded in the work that we're doing to make technologies like Kubernetes and containers, and a lot of developer-centric technologies like Spring, more accessible to developers to make sure that as developers are using those technologies, they shine through on the VMware infrastructure technologies that we are working on.Corey: Before we get into, I guess, the depths of what you're focusing on these days, let's look a little bit backwards into the past. Once upon a time, in the dawn of the modern cloud era—I guess we'll call it—you were the original product lead for Google Compute Engine or GCE. How did you get there? That seems like a very strange thing to be—something that, “Well, what am I going to build? Well, that's right; basically a VM service for a giant company that is just starting down the cloud path,” back when that was not an obvious thing for a company to do.Craig: Yeah, I mean, it was as much luck and serendipity as anything else, if I'm going to be completely honest. I spent a lot of time working at Microsoft, building enterprise technology, and one of the things I was extremely excited about was, obviously, the emergence of cloud. I saw this as being a fascinating disrupter. And I was also highly motivated at a personal level to just make IT simpler and more accessible. I spent a fair amount of time building systems within Microsoft, and then even a very small amount of time running systems within a hedge fund.So, I got, kind of, both of those perspectives. And I just saw this cloud thing as being an extraordinarily exciting way to drive out the cost of operations, to enable organizations to just focus on what really mattered to them which was getting those production systems deployed, getting them updated and maintained, and just having to worry a little bit less about infrastructure. And so when that opportunity arose, I jumped with both feet. Google obviously had a reputation as a company that was born in the cloud, it had a reputation of being extraordinarily strong from a technical perspective, so having a chance to bridge the gap between enterprise technology and that cloud was very exciting to me.Corey: This was back in an era when, in my own technical evolution, I was basically tired of working with Puppet as much as I had been, and I was one of the very early developers behind SaltStack, once upon a time—which since then you folks have purchased, which shows that someone didn't do their due diligence because something like 41 lines of code in the current release version is still assigned to me as per git-blame. So, you know, nothing is perfect. And right around then, then I started hearing about this thing that was at one point leveraging SaltStack, kind of, called Kubernetes, which, “I can't even pronounce that, so I'm just going to ignore it. Surely, this is never going to be something that I'm going to have to hear about once this fad passes.” It turns out that the world moved on a little bit differently.And you were also one of the co-founders of the Kubernetes project, which means that it seems like we have been passing each other in weird ways for the past decade or so. So, you're working on GCE, and then one day you want to, what, sitting up and deciding, “I know, we're going to build a container orchestration system because I want to have something that's going to take me 20 minutes to explain to someone who's never heard of these concepts before.” How did this come to be?Craig: It's really interesting, and a lot of it was driven by necessity, driven by a view that to make a technology like Google Compute Engine successful, we needed to go a little bit further. When you look at a technology like Google Compute Engine, we'd built something that was fabulous and Google's infrastructure is world-class, but there's so much more to building a successful cloud business than just having a great infrastructure technology. There's obviously everything that goes with that in terms of being able to meet enterprises where they are and all the—Corey: Oh, yeah. And everything at Google is designed for Google scale. It's, “We built this thing and we can use it to stand up something that is world-scale and get 10 million customers on the first day that it launches.” And, “That's great. I'm trying to get a Hello World page up and maybe, if I shoot for the moon, it can also run WordPress.” There's a very different scale of problem.Craig: It's just a very different thing. When you look at what an organization needs to use a technology, it's nice that you can take that, sort of, science-fiction data center and carve it up into smaller pieces and offer it as a virtual machine to someone. But you also need to look at the ISV ecosystem, the people that are building the software, making sure that it's qualified. You need to make sure that you have the ability to engage with the enterprise customer and support them through a variety of different functions. And so, as we were looking at what it would take to really succeed, it became clear that we needed a little more; we needed to, kind of, go a little bit further.And around that time, Docker was really coming into its full. You know, Docker solved some of the problems that organizations had always struggled with. Virtual machine is great, but it's difficult to think about. And inside Google, containers we're a thing.Corey: Oh, containers have a long and storied history in different areas. From my perspective, Docker solves the problem of, “Well, it works on my machine,” because before something like Docker, the only answer was, “Well, backup your email because your laptop's about to be in production.”Craig: [laugh]. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, I think when I look at what Docker did, and it was this moment of clarity because a lot of us had been talking about this and thinking about it. I remember turning to Joe while we were building Compute Engine and basically said, “Whoever solves the packaging the way that Google did internally, and makes that accessible to the world is ultimately going to walk away with a game.” And I think Docker put lightning in a bottle.They really just focused on making some of these technologies that underpinned the hyperscalers, that underpinned the way that, like, a Google, or a Facebook, or a Twitter tended to operate, just accessible to developers. And they solved one very specific thing which was that packaging problem. You could take a piece of software and you could now package it up and deploy it as an immutable thing. So, in some ways, back to your own origins with SaltStack and some of the technologies you've worked on, it really was an epoch of DevOps; let's give developers tools so that they can code something up that renders a production system. And now with Docker, you're able to shift that all left. So, what you produced was the actual deployable artifact, but that obviously wasn't enough by itself.Corey: No, there needed to be something else. And according to your biography, not only it says here that, I quote, “You were responsible for the formation of the CNCF, or Cloud Native Computing Foundation,” and I'm trying to understand is that something that you're taking credit for or being blamed for? It really seems like it could go either way, given the very careful wording there.Craig: [laugh]. Yeah, it could go either way. It certainly got away from us a little bit in terms of just the scope and scale of what was going on. But the whole thesis behind Kubernetes, if you just step back a little bit, was we didn't need to own it; Google didn't need to own it. We just needed to move the innovation boundary forwards into an area that we had some very strong advantages.And if you look at the way that Google runs, it kind of felt like when people were working with Docker, and you had technologies like Mesos and all these other things, they were trying to put together a puzzle, and we already had the puzzle box in front of us because we saw how that technology worked. So, we didn't need to control it, we just needed people to embrace it, and we were confident that we could run it better. But for people to embrace it, it couldn't be seen as just a Google thing. It had to be a Google thing, and a Red Hat thing, and an Amazon thing, and a Microsoft thing, and something that was really owned by the community. So, the inspiration behind CNCF was to really put the technology forwards to build a collaborative community around it and to enable and foster this disruption.Corey: At some point after Kubernetes was established, and it was no longer an internal Google project but something that was handed over to a foundation, something new started to become fairly clear in the larger ecosystem. And it's sort of a microcosm of my observation that the things that startups are doing today are what enterprises are going to be doing five years from now. Every enterprise likes to imagine itself a startup; the inverse is not particularly commonly heard. You left Google to go found Heptio, where you were focusing on enterprise adoption of open-source technologies, specifically Kubernetes, but it also felt like it was more of a cultural shift in many respects, which is odd because there aren't that many startups, at least in that era, that were focused on bringing startup technologies to the enterprise, and sneaking in—or at least that's how it felt—the idea of culture change as well.Craig: You know, it's really interesting. Every enterprise has to innovate, and people tend to look at startups as being a source of innovation or a source of incubation. What we were trying to do with Heptio was to go the other way a little bit, which was, when you look at what West Coast tech companies were doing, and you look at a technology like Kubernetes—or any new technology: Kubernetes, or KNative, or there's some of these new observability capabilities that are starting to emerge in this ecosystem—there's this sort of trickle-across effect, where it's starts with the West Coast tech companies that build something, and then it trickles across to a lot of the progressive forward-leaning enterprise organizations that have the scale to consume those technologies. And then over time, it becomes mainstream. And when I looked at a technology like Kubernetes, and certainly through the lens of a company like Google, there was an opportunity to step back a little bit and think about, well, Google's really this West Coast tech company, and it's producing this technology, and it's working to make that more enterprise-centric, but how about going the other way?How about meeting enterprise organizations where they are—enterprise organizations that aspire to adopt some of these practices—and build a startup that's really about just walking the journey with customers, advocating for their needs, through the lens of these open-source communities, making these open-source technologies more accessible. And that was really the thesis around what we were doing with Heptio. And we worked very hard to do exactly as you said which is, it's not just about the tech, it's about how you use it, it's about how you operate it, how you set yourself up to manage it. And that was really the core thesis around what we were pursuing there. And it worked out quite well.Corey: Sitting here in 2021, if I were going to build something from scratch, I would almost certainly not use Kubernetes to do it. I'd probably pick a bunch of serverless primitives and go from there, but what I respect and admire about the Kubernetes approach is companies can't generally do that with existing workloads; you have to meet them where they are, as you said. ‘Legacy' is a condescending engineering phrase for ‘it makes money.' It's, “Oh, what does that piece of crap do?” “Oh, about $4 billion a year.” So yeah, we're going to be a little delicate with what it does.Craig: I love that observation. I always prefer the word ‘heritage' over the word legacy. You got to—Corey: Yeah.Craig: —have a little respect. This is the stuff that's running the world. This is the stuff that every transaction is flowing through.And it's funny, when you start looking at it, often you follow the train along and eventually you'll find a mainframe somewhere, right? It is definitely something that we need to be a little bit more thoughtful about.Corey: Right. And as cloud continues to eat the world well, as of the time of this recording, there is no AWS/400, so there is no direct mainframe option in most cloud providers, so there has to be a migration path; there has to be a path forward, that doesn't include, “Oh, and by the way, take 18 months to rewrite everything that you've built.” And containers, particularly with an orchestration model, solve that problem in a way that serverless primitives, frankly, don't.Craig: I agree with you. And it's really interesting to me as I work with enterprise organizations. I look at that modernization path as a journey. Cloud isn't just a destination: there's a lot of different permutations and steps that need to be taken. And every one of those has a return on investment.If you're an enterprise organization, you don't modernize for modernization's sake, you don't embrace cloud for cloud's sake. You have a specific outcome in mind, “Hey, I want to drive down this cost,” or, “Hey, I want to accelerate my innovation here,” “Hey, I want to be able to set my teams up to scale better this way.” And so a lot of these technologies, whether it's Kubernetes, or even serverless is becoming increasingly important, is a capability that enables a business outcome at the end of the day. And when I think about something like Kubernetes, it really has, in a way, emerged as a Goldilocks abstraction. It's low enough level that you can run pretty much anything, it's high enough level that it hides away the specifics of the environment that you want to deploy it into. And ultimately, it renders up what I think is economies of scope for an organization. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, you have these economies of scale and economies of scope.Corey: Given how down I am on Kubernetes across the board and—at least, as it's presented—and don't take that personally; I'm down on most modern technologies. I'm the person that said the cloud was a passing fad, that virtualization was only going to see limited uptake, that containers were never going to eat the world. And I finally decided to skip ahead of the Kubernetes thing for a minute and now I'm actually going to be positive about serverless. Given how wrong I am on these things, that almost certainly dooms it. But great, I was down on Kubernetes for a long time because I kept seeing these enterprises and other companies talking about their Kubernetes strategy.It always felt like Kubernetes was a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. And I want to be clear, I'm not talking about vendors here because if you are a software provider to a bunch of companies and providing Kubernetes is part and parcel of what you do, yeah, you need a Kubernetes strategy. But the blue-chip manufacturing company that is modernizing its entire IT estate, doesn't need a Kubernetes strategy as such. Am I completely off base with that assessment?Craig: No, I think you're pointing at something which I feel as well. I mean, I'll be honest, I've been talking about [laugh] Kubernetes since day one, and I'm kind of tired of talking about Kubernetes. It should just be something that's there; you shouldn't have to worry about it, you shouldn't have to worry about operationalizing it. It's just an infrastructure abstraction. It's not in and of itself an end, it's simply a means to an end, which is being able to start looking at the destination you're deploying your software into as being more favorable for building distributed systems, not having to worry about the mechanics of what happens if a single node fails? What happens if I have to scale this thing? What happens if I have to update this thing?So, it's really not intended—and it never was intended—to be an end unto itself. It was really just intended to raise the waterline and provide an environment into which distributed applications can be deployed that felt entirely consistent, whether you're building those on-premises, in the public cloud, and increasingly out to the edge.Corey: I wound up making a tweet, couple years back, specifically in 2019, that the nuclear hot take: “Nobody will care about Kubernetes in five years.” And I stand by it, but I also think that's been wildly misinterpreted because I am not suggesting in any way that it's going to go away and no one is going to use it anymore. But I think it's going to matter in the same way as the operating system is starting to, the way that the Linux virtual memory management subsystem does now. Yes, a few people in specific places absolutely care a lot about those things, but most companies don't because they don't have to. It's just the way things are. It's almost an operating system for the data center, or the cloud environment, for lack of a better term. But is that assessment accurate? And if you don't wildly disagree with it, what do you think of the timeline?Craig: I think the assessment is accurate. The way I always think about this is you want to present your engineers, your developers, the people that are actually taking a business problem and solving it with code, you want to deliver to them the highest possible abstraction. The less they have to worry about the infrastructure, the less they have to worry about setting up their environment, the less they have to worry about the DevOps or DevSecOps pipeline, the better off they're going to be. And so if we as an industry do our job right, Kubernetes is just the water in which IT swims. You know, like the fish doesn't see the water; it's just there.We shouldn't be pushing the complexity of the system—because it is a fancy and complex system—directly to developers. They shouldn't necessarily have to think like, “Oh, I need to understand all of the XYZ is about how this thing works to be able to build a system.” There will be some engineers that benefit from it, but there are going to be other engineers that don't. The one thing that I think is going to—you know, is a potential change on what you said is, we're going to see people starting to program Kubernetes more directly, whether they know it or not. I don't know if that makes sense, but things like the ability for Kubernetes to offer up a way for organizations to describe the desired state of something and then using some of the patterns of Kubernetes to make the world into that shape is going to be quite pervasive, and I'm really seeing signs that we're seeing it.So yes, most developers are going to be working with higher abstractions. Yes, technologies like Knative and all of the work that we at VMware are doing within the ecosystem will render those higher abstractions to developers. But there's going to be some really interesting opportunities to take what made Kubernetes great beyond just, “Hey, I can put a Docker container down on a virtual machine,” and start to think about reconciler-driven IT: being able to describe what you want to have happen in the world, and then having a really smart system that just makes the world into that shape.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense. Corey: So, you went from driving Kubernetes adoption into the enterprise as the founder and CEO of Heptio, to effectively, acquired by one of the most enterprise-y of enterprise companies, in some respects, VMware, and your world changed. So, I understand what Heptio does because, to my mind, a big company is one that is 200 people. VMware has slightly more than that at last count, and I sort of lose track of all the threads of the different things that VMware does and how it operates. I could understand what Heptio does. What I don't understand is what, I guess, your corner of VMware does. Modern applications means an awful lot of things to an awful lot of people. I prefer to speak it with a condescending accent when making fun of those legacy things that make money—not a popular take, but it's there—how do you define what you do now?Craig: So, for me, when you talk about modern application platform, you can look at it one of two ways. You can say it's a platform for modern applications, and when people have modern applications, they have a whole variety of different ideas in the head: okay, well, it's microservices-based, or it's API-fronted, it's event-driven, it's supporting stream-based processing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's all kinds of fun, cool, hip new patterns that are happening in the segment. The other way you could look at it is it's a modern platform for applications of any kind. So, it's really about how do we make sense of going from where you are today to where you need to be in the future?How do we position the set of tools that you can use, as they make sense, as your organization evolves, as your organization changes? And so I tend to look at my role as being bringing these capabilities to our existing product line, which is, obviously, the vSphere product line, and it's almost a hyperscale unto itself, but it's really about that private cloud experience historically, and making those capabilities accessible in that environment. But there's another part to this as well, which is, it's not just about running technologies on vSphere. It's also about how can we make a lot of different public clouds look and feel consistent without hiding the things that they are particularly great at. So, every public cloud has its own set of capabilities, its own price-performance profile, its own service ecosystem, and richness around that.So, what can we do to make it so that as you're thinking about your journey from taking an existing system, one of those heritage systems, and thinking through the evolution of that system to meet your business requirements, to be able to evolve quickly, to be able to go through that digital transformation journey, and package it up and deliver the right tools at the right time in the right environment, so that we can walk the journey with our customers?Corey: Does this tie into Tanzu, or is that a different VMware initiative slash division? And my apologies on that one, just because it's difficult for me to wrap my head around where Tanzu starts and stops. If I'm being frank.Craig: So, [unintelligible 00:21:49] is the heart of Tanzu. So Tanzu, in a way, is a new branch, a new direction for VMware. It's about bringing this richness of capabilities to developers running in any cloud environment. It's an amalgamation of a lot of great technologies that people aren't even aware of that VMware has been building, or that VMware has gained through acquisition, certainly Heptio and the ability to bring Kubernetes to an enterprise organization is part of that. But we're also responsible for things like Spring.Spring is a critical anchor for Java developers. If you look at the Spring community, we participate in one and a half million new application starts a month. And you wouldn't necessarily associate VMware with that, but we're absolutely driving critical innovation in that space. Things, like full-stack observability, being able to not only deploy these container-packaged applications, but being able to actually deal with the day two operations, and how to deal with the APM considerations, et cetera. So, Tanzu is an all-in push from VMware to bring the technologies like Kubernetes and everything that exists above Kubernetes to our customers, but also to new customers in the public cloud that are really looking for consistency across those environments.Corey: When I look at what you've been doing for the past decade or so, it really tells a story of transitions, where you went from product lead on GCE, to working on Kubernetes. You took Kubernetes from an internal Google reimagining of Borg into an open-source project that has been given over to the CNCF. You went from running Heptio, which was a startup, to working at one of the least startup-y-like companies, by some measures, in the world.s you seem to have gone from transiting from one thing to almost its exact opposite, repeatedly, throughout your career. What's up with that theme?Craig: I think if you look back on the transitions and those key steps, the one thing that I've consistently held in my head, and I think my personal motivation was really grounded in this view that IT is too hard, right? IT is just too challenging. So, the transition from Microsoft, where I was responsible building package software, to Google, which was about cloud, was really marking that transition of, “Hey, we just need to do better for the enterprise organization.” The transition from focusing on a virtual machine-based system, which was the state of the art at the time to unlocking these modern orchestrated container-based system was in service of that need, which was, “Hey, you know, if you can start to just treat a number of virtual machines as a destination that has a distributed operating system on top of it, we're going to be better off.” The need to transition to a community-centric outcome because while Google is amazing in so many ways, being able to benefit from the perspective that traditional enterprise organizations brought to the table was significant to transitioning into a startup where we were really serving enterprise organizations and providing that interface back into the community to ultimately joining VMware because at the end of the day, there's a lot of work to be done here.And when you're selling a startup, it's—you're either selling out or you're buying in, and I'm not big on the idea of selling out. In this case, having access to the breadth of VMware, having access to the place where most of the customers are really cared about were living, and all of those heritage systems that are just running the world's business. So, for me, it's really been about walking that journey on behalf of that individual that's just trying to make ends meet; just trying to make sure that their IT systems stay lit; that are trying to make sure that the debt that they're creating today in the IT environment isn't payday loan debt, it's more like a mortgage. I can get into an environment that's going to serve me and my family well. And so, each of those transitions has really just been marked by need.And I tend to look at the needs of that enterprise organization that's walking this journey as being an anchor for me. And I'm pleased with every transition I've made. Like, at every point we've—sort of, Joe and myself, who's been on this journey for a while, have been able to better serve that individual.Corey: Now, I know that it's always challenging to talk about the future, but do you think you're done with those radical transitions, as you continue to look forward to what's coming? I mean, it's impossible to predict the future, but you're clearly where you are for a reason, and I'm assuming part of that reason is because you see an opportunity; you see a transformation that is currently unfolding. What does that look like from where you sit?Craig: Well, I mean, my work in VMware [laugh] is very far from done. There's just an amazing amount of continued opportunity to deliver value not only to those existing customers where they're running on-prem but to make the public cloud more intrinsically accessible and to increasingly solve the problems as more computational resources fanning back out to the edge. So, I'm extremely excited about the opportunity ahead of us from the VMware perspective. I think we have some incredible advantages because, at the end of the day, we're both a neutral party—you know, we're not a hyperscaler. We're not here to compete with the hyperscalers on the economies of scale that they render.But we're also working to make sure that as the hyperscalers are offering up these new services and everything else, that we can help the enterprise organization make best use of that. We can help them make best use of that infrastructure environment, we can help them navigate the complexities of things like concentration risk, or being able to manage through the luck and potential that some of these things represent. So, I don't want to see the world collapse back into the mainframe era. I think that's the thing that really motivates me, I think, the transition from mainframe to client-server, the work that Wintel did—the Windows-Intel consortium—to unlock that ecosystem just created massive efficiencies and massive benefits from everyone. And I do feel like with the combination of technologies like Kubernetes and everything that's happening on top of that, and the opportunity that an organization like VMware has to be a neutral party, to really bridge the gap between enterprises and those technologies, we're in a situation where we can create just tremendous value in the world: making it so that modernization is a journey rather than a destination, helping customers modernize at a pace that's reasonable to them, and ultimately serving both the cloud providers in terms of bringing some critical workloads to the cloud, but also serving customers so that as they live with the harsh realities of a multi-cloud universe where I don't know one enterprise organization that's just all-in on one cloud, we can provide some really useful capabilities and technologies to make them feel more consistent, more familiar, without hiding what's great about each of them.Corey: Craig, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today about where you sit, how you see the world, where you've been, and little bits of where we're going. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Craig: Well, I'm on Twitter, @cmcluck, and obviously, on LinkedIn. And we'll continue to invite folks to attend a lot of our events, whether that's the Spring conferences that VMware sponsors, or VMWorld. And I'm really excited to have an opportunity to talk more about what we're doing and some of the great things we're up to.Corey: I will certainly be following up as the year continues to unfold. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it.Craig: Thank you so much for your time as well.Corey: Craig McLuckie, Vice President of R&D at VMware in their modern applications business unit. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment that I won't bother to read before designating it legacy or heritage.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need the Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

What if I told you that there's a way to keep yourself young? It takes a lot of hard work, and it's a continuing process. However, the payoff is definitely worth it. It also offers a lot of benefits aside from longevity. The secret? It's developing a lifelong passion for learning and growing. In this episode, Craig Harper joins us once again to explain the value of having a growth mindset. We explore how you can keep yourself young and healthy even as you chronologically age. He also emphasises the importance of fun and laughter in our lives. Craig also shares how powerful our minds are and how we can use them to manage our pain.    If you want to know how to develop a growth mindset for a fuller life, then this episode is for you!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how to develop a growth mindset to keep yourself young and healthy, regardless of your chronological age. Understand why you need to manage your energy and plan fun and laughter into your life. Discover the ways you can change your mindset around pain.    Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits Episodes: #60: Ian Walker - Paraplegic Handbiker - Ultra Distance Athlete #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #188: Awareness and Achieve High Performance with Craig Harper  #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova Connect with Craig: Website | Instagram | Linkedin Interested to learn more from Craig? You can check out his books and his podcast, The You Project. T: The Story of Testosterone by Carole Hooven  Mind Over Medicine by Lissa Rankin M.D. Lifespan - Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To  by David A. Sinclair PhD Neuroscience professor Andrew Huberman's Instagram  Dr Rhonda Patrick's website A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!   Episode Highlights [06:50] A Growth Mindset Keeps Us Young and Healthy It's helpful to take advantage of the availability of high-level research and medical journals online. If you're prepared to do the hard work, you can learn anything.  Learning and exposing ourselves to new things are crucial parts of staying young and healthy.  Age is a self-created story.  With a growth mindset, you can change how your body and mind works so that you feel younger than your real age.  [12:23] Develop a Growth Mindset It's vital to surround yourself with people with the same mindset — people who drag you up, not down.  You can also get a similar experience by exposing yourself to good ideas and stories. Be aware of what you're feeding your mind, on top of what you're feeding your body.  School is not a marker of your intelligence. Your academic failures do not matter.  With a growth mindset, you can keep growing and learning.  [17:40] Let Go and Be Happy People tend to have career and exercise plans, but not a fun plan.  We can't be serious all the time — we also need time to have fun and laugh.  Laughter can impact and improve the immune system. Laughing can change the biochemistry of your brain. Plan for the future, but also learn to live in the now. Having a growth mindset is important, but so is finding joy and enjoyment.  [23:31] Look After Your Energy Having fun and resting can impact your energy and emotional system.  These habits can help you work faster than when you're just working all the time.  Remember, volume and quality of work are different.  [30:24] Work-Life Balance Many people believe that they need to balance work and life. However, when you find your passion, it's just life.  Even doing 20 hours of work for a job you hate is worse than 40 hours of doing something you love. There's no one answer for everyone. Everything is a lot more flexible than before. Find what works for you.  [35:56] Change the Way You Think It's unavoidable that we think a certain way because of our upbringing.  Start to become aware of your lack of awareness and your programming.  Learn why you think of things the way you do. Is it because of other people?  Be influenced by other people, but test their ideas through trial and error. Let curiosity fuel your growth mindset.  Listen to the full podcast to learn how Craig learned how to run his gym without a business background!  [44:18] Sharing Academic Knowledge Academics face many restrictions due to the nature and context of their work.  He encourages the academic community to communicate information to everyone, not just to fellow researchers.  He plans to publish a book about his PhD research to share what he knows with the public. Science is constantly changing. We need to keep up with the latest knowledge.   [50:55] Change Your Relationship with Pain There is no simple fix to chronic pain.  The most you can do is change your relationship and perception of pain.  Our minds are powerful enough to create real pain even without any physical injury. Listen to Craig and Lisa's stories about how our minds affect our pain in the full episode!   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘My mind is the CEO of my life. So I need to make sure that as much as I can, that I'm managing my mind, and my mental energy optimally.' ‘If you're listening to this, and you didn't succeed in the school system, that means absolutely nothing when you're an adult.' ‘We're literally doing our biology good by laughing.' ‘Living is a present tense verb, you can't living in the future, and you can't live in the future.' ‘Often, more is not better. Sometimes more is worse.  So there's a difference between volume of work and output and quality of work.' ‘It's all about those people just taking one step at a time to move forward... That growth mindset that I think is just absolutely crucial.'   About Craig Craig Harper is one of Australia's leading educators, speakers, and writers in health and self-development. He has been an integral part of the Australian health and fitness industry since 1982. In 1990, he established a successful Harper's Personal Training, which evolved into one of the most successful businesses of its kind.  He currently hosts a successful Podcast called 'The You Project'. He is also completing a neuropsychology PhD, studying the spectrum of human thinking and behaviour. Craig speaks on various radio stations around Australia weekly. He currently fills an on-air role as a presenter on a lifestyle show called 'Get a Life', airing on Foxtel.  Want to know more about Craig and his work? Check out his website, or follow him on Instagram and Linkedin!   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn how to develop a growth mindset. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits with Lisa Tamati. This week I have Craig Harper. He is really well known in Australia. He's a broadcaster, a fitness professional, a PhD scholar, an expert on metacognition, and self-awareness. And we get talking on all those good topics today and also neuro-psycho-immunology, very big word. Really interesting stuff; and we get talking about laughter, we get talking about pain management. We sort of go all over the show in this episode, which I sometimes do on this show. I hope you enjoy this very insightful and deep conversation with Craig Harper.  Before we head over to the show, I just want to let you know that Neil and I at Running Hot Coaching have launched a new program called Boost Camp. Now, this will be starting on the first of September and we're taking registrations now. This is a live eight-week program, where you'll basically boost your life. That's why it's called Boost Camp. not boot camp, Boost Camp. This is all about upgrading your body, learning how to help your body function at its base, learning how your mindset works, and increasing your performance, your health, your well-being and how to energise your mind and your body. In this Boost Camp, we're going to give you the answers you need in a simple, easy-to-follow process using holistic diagnostic tools and looking at the complete picture.  So you're going to go on a personalised health and fitness journey that will have a really life-changing effect on your family and your community. We're going to be talking about things like routine and resilience, mental resilience, which is a big thing that I love to talk about, and how important is in this time of change, in this time of COVID, where everything's upside down, and how we should be all building time and resources around building our resilience and energising our mind and body. We're going to give you a lot of health fundamentals. Because the fundamentals are something simple and easy to do, it means that you probably aren't doing some of the basics right, and we want to help you get there.  We're going to give you the answers you need in a simple, sort of easy, process. So we are now in a position to be able to control and manage all of these stressors and these things that are coming at us all the time, and we want to help you do that in the most optimal manner. So check out what boost camp is all about. Go to www.peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp. I'll say that again, peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp, boost with a B-O-O-S-T, boost camp. We hope to see you over there! Right, now over to the show with Craig Harper. Well, hi everyone and welcome to Pushing the Limits! Today, I have someone who is a special treat for you who has been on the show before. He's an absolute legend, and I love him to bits. Craig half and welcome to the show mate, how are you doing?  Craig Harper: Hi Lisa! I'm awesome but you're not.  Lisa: No I'm a bit of a miss, people. I've got shingles, a horrible, horrible virus that I advise nobody to get. Craig: What it— do we know what that's made? What causes it, or is it idiopathic as they say? Lisa: Yeah, no, it is from the chickenpox virus. Although, I've never, ever had that virus. So I'm like heck how, you know, it's related to the cold sore virus and all of that, which I definitely have had often. So it sits on the spinal cord, these little viruses, dormant and then one day when your immune systems are down, it decides to attack and replicate and go hard out. So yeah, that'll be the down for the count now for two and a half weeks. In a lot of pain, but— Craig: What is it like nerve pain or what kind of pain is it?  Lisa: Yes, it's nerve pain. So this one's actually, it hits different nerves in different people, depending on where it decides to pop out. My mum had the femoral nerve, which is one that goes right down from the backbone, quite high up on the backbone, down across the back and then down through the hip flexor and down the leg. I've got all these horrible looking sores, I look like a burn victim all the way down my leg and across my back. And it comes out through the muscles of your like, through the nerves and nerve endings and causes these blisters on top of the skin but it's the nerve pain that's really horrible because there's no comfortable position. There's no easy way to lie or sit and of course, when you're lying at night, it's worse. It's worse at nighttime than in the day. So I learned a lot about shingles. And as usual, we're using these obstacles to be a learning curve. Craig: Why on earth are you doing a bloody podcast? You should be relaxing. Lisa: You're important, you see. I had, you know, I had this appointment with you, and I honour my appointments, and I— Craig: Definitely not important. What's the typical treatment for shingles? Lisa: Well, actually, I wish I'd known this two weeks ago, I didn't know this, but I just had a Zoom call with Dave Asprey, you know, of Bulletproof fame, who is one of my heroes, and he's coming on the show, people, shortly. So that's really exciting. He told me to take something called BHT, butylated hydroxytoluene, which is a synthetic antioxidant. They actually use them in food additives, they said that kills that virus. So I'm like, ‘Right, get me some of that.' But unfortunately, I was already, it's— I only got it just yesterday, because I had to wait for the post. So I'm sort of hoping for a miracle in the next 24 hours.  Also, intravenous vitamin C, I've had three of those on lysine, which also helps. One of the funny things, before we get to the actual topic of the day, is I was taking something called L-Citrulline which helps with nitric oxide production and feeds into the arginine pathway. Apparently, while that's a good thing for most people, the arginine, if you have too much arginine in the body, it can lead to replication of this particular virus, which is really random and I only found that out after the fact. But you know, as a biohacker, who experiments sometimes you get it wrong.  Craig: Sometimes you turn left when you should have turned right.  Lisa: Yes. So that, you know, certainly took a lot of digging in PubMed to find that connection. But I think that's maybe what actually set it off. That combined with a pretty stressful life of like— Craig: It's interesting that you mentioned PubMed because like a lot of people now, you know how people warn people off going Dr Google, you know, whatever, right. But the funny thing is, you can forget Dr Google, I mean, Google's okay. But you can access medical journals, high level— I mean, all of the research journals that I access for my PhD are online. You can literally pretty much access any information you want. We're not talking about anecdotal evidence, and we're not talking about theories and ideas and random kind of junk. We're talking about the highest level research, you literally can find at home now. So if you know how to research and you know what you're looking for, and you can be bothered reading arduous academic papers, you can pretty much learn anything, to any level, if you're prepared to do the work and you know how— and you can be a little bit of a detective, a scientific detective.  Lisa: That is exactly, you know, what I keep saying, and I'm glad you said that because you are a PhD scholar and you are doing this. So you know what you're talking about, and this is exactly what I've done in the last five years, is do deep research and all this sort of stuff. People think that you have to go to university in order to have this education, and that used to be the case. It is no longer the case. We don't have to be actually in medical school to get access to medical texts anymore, which used to be the way. And so we now have the power in our hands to take, to some degree, control over what we're learning and where we're going with this.  It doesn't mean that it's easy. You will know, sifting through PubMed, and all these scholarly Google articles and things in clinical studies is pretty damn confusing sometimes and arduous. But once you get used to that form of learning, you start to be able to sift through relatively fast, and you can really educate yourself. I think having that growth mindset, I mean, you and I never came from an academic background. But thanks to you, I'm actually going to see Prof Schofield next week. Prof Schofield and looking at a PhD, because, I really need to add that to my load. But— Craig: You know, the thing is, I think in general, and I don't know where you're gonna go today, but I think in general, like what one of the things that keeps us young is learning and exposing ourselves, our mind and our emotions and for that matter, our body to new things, whether that's new experiences or new ideas, or new information, or new environments, or new people. This is what floats my boat and it keeps me hungry and it keeps me healthy physically, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, creatively, sociologically. It keeps me healthy. Not only does it keep me in a good place, I'm actually at 57, still getting better. You know, and people might wonder about that sometimes.  Of course, there's an inevitability to chronological aging. Clearly, most people at 80 are not going to be anything like they were at 40. Not that I'm 80. But there's— we know now that there's the unavoidable consistency of time as a construct, as an objective construct. But then there's the way that we behave around and relate to time. Biological aging is not chronological aging. In the middle of the inevitability of time ticking over is, which is an objective thing, there's the subject of human in the middle of it, who can do what he or she wants. So, in other words, a 57-year-old bloke doesn't need to look or feel or function or think like a 57-year-old bloke, right?  When we understand that, in many ways, especially as an experience, age is a self-created story for many people. I mean, you've met, I've met and our listeners have met 45-year-olds that seem 70 and 70-year-olds— and we're not talking about acting young, that's not what we're talking about. I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about pretending you're not old or acting young. I'm actually talking about changing the way that your body and your mind and your brain and your emotional system works, literally. So that you are literally in terms of function, similar to somebody or a ‘typical' person who's 20 or 25 years younger than you. We didn't even know that this used to be possible, but not only is it possible, if you do certain things, it's very likely that that's the outcome you'll create. Lisa: Yeah, and if you think about our grandparents, and when I think about my Nana at 45 or 50, they were old. When I think about now I'm 52, you're 57, we're going forward, we're actually reaching the peak of our intellectual, well, hopefully not the peak, we're still going up. Physically, we got a few wrinkles and a few grey hairs coming. But even on that front, there is so much what's happening in the longevity space that my take on it is, if I can keep my shit together for the next 10 years, stuff's gonna come online that's gonna help me keep it on for another 20, 30, 40 years.  For me now it's trying to hold my body together as best I can so that when the technology does come, that we are able to meet— and we're accessing some of the stuff now, I mean, I'm taking some of the latest and greatest bloody supplements and biohacking stuff, and actively working towards that, and having this, I think it's a growth mindset. I had Dr Demartini on the show last week, who I love. I think he's an incredible man. His mindset, I mean, he's what nearly, I think he's nearly 70. It looks like he's 40. He's amazing. And his mind is so sharp and so fast it'll leave you and I in the dust. He's processing books every day, like, you know, more than a book a day and thinking his mind through and he's distilling it and he's remembering, and he's retaining it, and he's giving it to the world. This is sort of— you know, he's nothing exceptional. He had learning disabilities, for goodness sake, he had a speech impediment, he couldn't read until he was an adult. In other words, he made that happen. You and I, you know, we both did you know, where you went to university, at least when you're younger, I sort of mucked around on a bicycle for a few years. Travelling the world to see it. But this is the beauty of the time that we live in, and we have access to all this. So that growth mindset, I think keeps you younger, both physically and mentally. Craig: And this is why I reckon it's really important that we hang around with people who drag us up, not down. And that could be you know, this listening to your podcast, of course, like I feel like when I listen to a podcast with somebody like you that shares good ideas and good information and good energy and is a good person, like if I'm walking around, I've literally got my headphones here because I just walked back from the cafe, listening to Joe Rogan's latest podcast with this lady from Harvard talking about testosterone, you'd find it really interesting, wrote a book called T.  When I'm listening to good conversations with good people, I am, one, I'm fascinated and interested, but I'm stimulating myself and my mind in a good way. I'm dragging myself up by exposing myself to good ideas and good thinking, and good stories. Or it might even be just something that's funny, it might— I'm just exposing myself to a couple of dickheads talking about funny shit, right? And I'd spend an hour laughing, which is also therapeutic.  You know, and I think there's that, I think we forget that we're always feeding our mind and our brain something. It's just having more awareness of what am I actually plugging into that amazing thing? Not only just what am I putting in my body, which, of course, is paramount. But what am I putting in, you know, that thing that sits between my ears that literally drives my life? That's my HQ, that's my, my mind is the CEO of my life. So I need to make sure that as much as I can, that I'm managing my mind and my mental energy                                                                                  optimally. Lisa: Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of people if they didn't do well in the school system, think that, 'Oh, well, I'm not academic therefore I can't learn or continue to learn.' I really encourage people, if you're listening to this, and you didn't succeed in the school system, that means absolutely nothing when you're an adult. The school system has got many flaws, and it didn't cater to everybody. So I just want people to understand that.  You know, just like with Dr Demartini, he taught himself 30 words a day, that's where he started: vocabulary. He taught himself to read and then taught— Albert Einstein was another one, you know, he struggled in school for crying out loud. So school isn't necessarily the marker of whether you're an intelligent human being or not. It's one system and one way of learning that is okay for the average and the masses. But definitely, it leaves a lot of people thinking that they're dumb when they're not dumb.  It's all about those people just taking one step at a time to move forward and becoming, you know, that growth mindset that I think is just absolutely crucial. You talked there about laughter and I wanted to go into that a little bit today too, because I heard you talking on Tiffany, our friend Tiffany's podcast, and you were talking about how important laughter is for the body, for our minds, for our— and if we laugh a lot, we're less likely to fall victim to the whole adult way of being, which is sometimes pretty cynical and miserable. When you think, what is it? Kids laugh something like 70 times a day and adults laugh I think, six times a day or some statistic. Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit? Craig: Well, I used to sit down with you know, I don't do much one-on-one coaching anymore, just because I do other stuff. I would sit with people and go, ‘Alright, tell me about your exercise plan and blah, blah, blah. Tell me about your career plan, blah, blah, blah. Tell me about your financial plan, blah, blah, blah.' Tell me about, you know, whatever. And they have systems and programs and plans for everything.  I would say to them, 'Do you like fun?' And they're like, they look at me like I was a weirdo. 'What do you mean?' I go, 'Well, what do you mean, what do I mean? Like, do you like having fun?' And they're like, very seriously, like, 'Well, of course, everyone likes having fun.' I go, 'Great. What's your fun plan?' And they go, 'What?' I go, 'What's your fun— like, is laughing and having fun important to you?' 'Yeah, yeah.' 'Okay, what's your fun plan?'  They literally, like this idea of just integrating things into my life, which are for no reason other than to laugh and to have fun. Not to be productive and efficient and to tick more boxes and create more income and elevate output and tick fucking boxes and hit KPIs and you know, just to be silly, just to laugh like a dickhead, just to hang out with your mates or your girlfriends, or whatever it is. Just to talk shit, just to, not everything needs to be fucking deep and meaningful and world-changing. Not everything. In fact, it can't, you know?  Our brain and our body and our emotional system and our nervous system and— it can't work like that we can't be elevated all the time. And so, literally when we are laughing, we're changing the biochemistry of our brain. You know, literally when we are having fun, we're impacting our immune system in a real way through that thing I've probably spoken to you about, psychoneuroimmunology, right? We're literally doing our biology good by laughing and there's got to be, for me, there's got to be, because, like you probably, I have a lot of deep and meaningful conversations with people about hard shit. Like, I'm pretty much a specialist at hard conversations. It's what I do. But, you know, and, and I work a lot, and I study a lot. Then there needs to be a valve. You can't be all of that all of the time because you're human, you're not a cyborg, you're not a robot. And this hustle, hustle, hustle, grind, work harder, sleep less, you can, you know, you can sleep when you're dead, it's all bullshit. Because, also, yeah, I want to learn and grow and evolve, and I want to develop new skills. But you know what, I want to also, in the moment, laugh at silly shit. I want to be happy and I want to hang out with people I love and I want to be mentally and emotionally and spiritually nourished.  Like, it's not just about acquiring knowledge and accumulating shit that you're probably not going to use. It's also about the human experience now. This almost sounds contradictory. But because of course, we want a future plan and we want goals and all of those, but we're never going to live in the present because when we get there, it's not the present. It's just another installment of now. So when next Wednesday comes, it's not the future, it's now again, because life is never-ending now, right?  It's like you only like, live— living is a present tense verb. You can't living in the future, and you can't live in the future. You cannot. Yes, I know, this gets a little bit, what's the word existential, but the truth is that, yeah, we need to— well, we don't, we can do whatever we want. But I believe we need to be stimulated so we're learning and growing, and we're doing good stuff for our brain and good stuff for our body. But also that we are giving ourselves a metaphoric hug, and going, 'It's all right to lie on your bed and watch Netflix, as long as it's not 20 hours a day, five days a week,' you know. It's okay to just laugh at silly stuff. It's okay, that there's no purpose to doing this thing other than just joy and enjoyment, you know.  I think that people like you and me who are, maybe we would put ourselves in the kind of driven category, right? You and I are no good at this. Like, at times, having fun and just going, ‘I'm going to do fuck all today.' Because the moment that we do sometimes we start to feel guilty and we start to be like, 'Fuck, I'm not being productive. I've got to be productive.' That, in itself, is a problem for high performance. Like, fuck your high performance, and fuck your productivity today. Be unproductive, be inefficient, and just fucking enjoy it, you know, not— because in a minute, we're going to be dead. We're going to go, 'But fuck, I was productive. But I had no fun, I never laughed, because I was too busy being important.' Fuck all that. Lisa: I think both of us have probably come a long way around finding that out. I mean, I used to love reading fiction novels, and then I went, ‘Oh, I can't be reading fiction novels. I've got so many science books that I have to read.' Here I am, dealing with insomnia at two o'clock in the morning reading texts on nitric oxide, you know. It is this argument that goes on, still in my head if there was an hour where you weren't learning something, you know, I can't. Because I know that if I go for a big drive or something, and I have to travel somewhere, or going for a long run or something, I've probably digested a book on that road trip or three, or 10 podcasts or something and I've actually oh, I get to the end and I'm like, ‘Well, I achieved something.' I've got my little dopamine hits all the way through.  Now I've sort of come to also understand that you need this time out and you need to just have fun. I'm married to this absolute lunatic of a guy called Haisely O'Leary, who I just love, because all day every day, he is just being an idiot. In the best sense of the word. I come out and I'm grumpy and you know, had a hard day and I'm tired, I'm stressed, and I come out and he's doing a little dance, doing some stupid meme or saying some ridiculous thing to me. I'm just like, you know, I crack up at it. That's the best person to have to be around because they keep being—and I'm like, ‘Come on, stop being stupid, you should be doing this and you shouldn't be doing that.' Then I hear myself, and I'm like, ‘No, he's got it right.' Craig: Well, I think he does, in some ways, you know. It's not about all, it's not about one or the other, it's about— and it's recognising that if I look after my energy, and my emotional system, and all of that, I'll get more done in 8 hours than 12 hours when I'm not looking after myself. So more is not better, necessarily. In fact, often, more is not better; sometimes, more is worse. So there's a difference between volume of work and output and quality of work. Also, you know, quality of experience.  I wrote a little thing yesterday, just talking on social media about the fact that I, like all of the things that I do, even study, although it's demanding, but I enjoy it. My job, you know, like, right now you and I do podcasts. I do seven podcasts a week, apart from the ones like this, where I'm being interviewed by someone else, or spoken to by somebody else. My life is somewhat chaotic, but I don't really, in terms of having a ‘job'. Well, one, I don't have a job. I haven't had a job since I was 26. Two, I don't really feel a sense of work, like most people do.  Like the other night, I did a gig. I don't know if you, if I posted a little thing about this on Insta, and I was doing a talk for Hewlett Packard in Spain. Now, how cool is the world? Right? So I'm talking here, right here in my house, you can see, obviously, your listeners can't. But this is not video, is it? Just us? I wish I knew that earlier. Sorry, everyone, I would have brushed my hair. But anyway, you should see my hair by the way. I look like bloody Doc from Back to the Future. Anyway, but I'm sitting in here, I'm sitting in the studio, and I'm about to talk to a few hundred people in Spain, right, which is where, that's where they're all— that's where I was dealing with the people who are organising me to speak.  Just before I'm about to go live at 5:30, the lady who had organised me was texting me. So it's on Zoom. There's already a guy on the screen speaking and then lots of little squares of other humans. I said to her, ‘How many?' and said, ‘You know, like a few 100.' I said, ‘Cool.' I go, ‘Everyone's in Spain,' and she goes, ‘No, no, we're in Spain, but the audience is around the world.' And I go, ‘Really? How many countries?' She goes, ‘38.' I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, I'm wearing a black t-shirt. I'm wearing my camo shorts. I've got bare feet. I'm talking to hundreds of humans from this big organisation in 38 countries, and I'm talking about the stuff that I am passionate about, right? I don't have to do any prep, because it's my default setting. I'm just talking. I had to talk for an hour and a half about high performance. Well, giddy up, that's like an hour and a half of breathing. You know?  I just had such fun, and I had this moment, Lisa, halfway through, I don't know, but about halfway through, where I'm like, I remember growing up in a paradigm where pretty much when I was a kid everyone went and got a job and you went, you became a cop or you sold clothes, or you're a bricky or sparky or you're some kind of tradie. A few of my super smart friends went to university. That was way over my head, I'm like, ‘Fuck university.' But there was literally about 50 jobs in the world. You know, it's like there was only 50 jobs, and everyone or nearly everyone fitted into one of those 50. There was a few other ones but for the most part, nearly everyone fitted into about 50 jobs. I'm sitting there going— I won't say what but I'm earning pretty good money. I'm sitting in bare feet in my house talking to humans around the world about this stuff that I want to tell everyone about anyway.  I do it for free on my podcast and your podcast and I do it anyway. I have this great time, it's a really good experience. Then I finish at 7 pm. Then I walk 15 feet into the kitchen and put the kettle on and check my messages.  Lisa: No commuting, no travelling, no flying. Craig: I'm like, ‘How is this a job?' I'm like, ‘How is this real?' ‘This is a scam. I'm scamming everybody.' Like, how great is 2021? I know there's a lot of shit going on and I'm not trying to be insensitive, and it's smashed my business too. All of my live events for 2020 got kicked in the dick in two weeks, right? I got financially annihilated, but you just go, ‘Oh well, improvise, adapt, overcome and figure shit out.' But, I think when you can have it and a lot of people and it's a very well-worn kind of idea. But when you're, what you love, and what you're curious about, and how you make a few bucks, when that can all collide, then life is a different thing. Then there's not work and life, there's just life.  You know, and so when we talk about this idea of work-life balance, you know, it's like the old days that talk about that a lot. And it's like, almost like there was some seesaw, some metaphoric seesaw with work on one side and life on the other. And when you get balance like that— because what happens, think about this, if we're just basing it on numbers, like all 40 hours of work versus however many hours of non-work or however many hours of recreation and recovery. But if you're doing even 20 hours of a job that you hate, that's going to fuck you up. That's gonna, that's gonna mess with you physically, mentally, and emotionally. That's going to be toxic; that's going to be damaging; that's going to be soul-destroying, versus something else like me studying 40 hours a week, working 40, 50 hours a week doing 90 in total, depending on the week and loving it, and loving it. And going, ‘I feel better than I've ever felt in my life.'  I still train every day, and I still, I live 600-800 metres from the beach, I still walk to the beach every day, you know. And I still hang out with my friends. You know, it's like, it doesn't have to be this cookie-cutter approach. The beauty I think of life, with your food, with your lifestyle, with your career, with your relationships with the way that you learn, like the way that you do business, everything now is so much more flexible, and optional than any time ever before that we can literally create our own blueprint for living. Lisa: Yeah. And then it's not always easy. And sometimes it takes time to get momentum and stuff. Being, both you and I have both said before we're unemployable. Like, I'm definitely not someone you want to employ, because I'm just always going to run my own ship. I've always been like that, and that's the entrepreneurial personality. So not everyone is set up for that personality-wise. So you know, we're a certain type of people that likes to run in a certain type of way. And we need lots of other people when doing the other paths.  There is this ability now to start to change the way you think about things. And this is really important for people who are unhappy in where they're at right now. To think, ‘Hang on a minute. I've been I don't know, policeman, teacher, whatever you've been, I don't want to be there anymore. Is there another me out there? Is there a different future that I can hit?' The answer is yes, if you're prepared to put in the work, and the time, and the effort, the looking at understanding and learning, the change, being adaptable, the risk-taking, all of those aspects of it. Yes, but there is ways now that you can do that where they weren't 30 years ago, when I came out of school I couldn't be, I was going to be an accountant. Can you imagine anything worse than that?  Craig: Hi, hi. Shout out to all our account listeners, we love you and we need you. Lisa: I wasn't that— Academically that's I was good at it. But geez, I hated it. And I did it because of parental pushing direction. Thank goodness, I sort of wake up to that. And you know, after three years. I had Mark Commander Mark Devine on the show. He's a Navy SEAL, man. You have to have him on the show. I'll hook you up. He's just a buck. He became an accountant before he became a Navy SEAL and now he's got the best of both worlds really, you know, but like you couldn't get more non-accountant than Mark Devine. We all go into the things when we leave school that we think we're meant to be doing. And they're not necessarily— and I think you know, the most interesting 50 year-olds still don't know what the hell they want to be when they grow up. Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. You know, I'm still in that camp. Craig: You raise a really interesting point too, and that is programming and conditioning. And, you know, because we all grow up being programmed, one way or consciously or not, we grow— if you grow up around people, you're being programmed. So that's not a bad thing. That's an unavoidable human thing. So, situation, circumstance, environment, school, family, friends, media, social media, all of that stuff shapes the way that we see the world and shapes the way that we see ourselves.  When you grow up in a paradigm that says, ‘Okay, Lisa, when you finish school, you have to go to university, or you have to get a job, or you have to join the family business, or you have to work on our farm,' or whatever it is, you grow up in that. You're taught and told and trained. And so you don't question that, you know. And for me, I grew up in the 70s, I finished in the 80s. I finished school in 1981. And I grew up in the country, and most people go to trade or most people worked in logging or on a farm or— and I would say about five in 100 of the kids that I did— by the way, doing year 12 was a pretty big deal in that time. ‘Geez, are you a brainiac?' Definitely wasn't a brainiac. But year 12 is a big thing now. Now, even if you have an undergrad degree that it's almost nothing really enough. It's like, you kind of got to go get honours, or masters or maybe even a PhD down the track. And that landscape has really changed. So it's just changing again to— you know, and I think to become aware— like this is for me, I love it; this is my shit; this is what I love— is starting to become aware of our lack of awareness. And starting to become aware of my own programming and go, ‘Oh, I actually think this. Why not? Because this is how I naturally think about, because this is how I've been trained to think about work. I've been trained to or programmed to think this way about money, or relationships, or marriage, or eating meat, or being a Catholic or being an atheist or voting liberal law,' or whatever it is, right.  Not that any of those things are good or bad, but it's not about how I eat or how I vote or how I worship. It's about how I think. And is this my thinking? Or is this just a reflection of their thinking, right? So when we open the door on metacognition now we start to become aware of our own stories, and where they come from. And this is where I think we really start to take control of our own life, and our own present, and our own future that doesn't exist, by the way, but it will, but it won't be the present.  Then, we start to write our own story with our own voice, not our parents' voice, not our friends', not our peers' voice, you know. And we're always going to be influenced by other people. Of course. Just like people are influenced by you and your podcast, and your stories, and your thinking, and your lessons for them. They're influenced. But I always say to people, ‘Don't believe me because you like me. Listen to me, if you like me and consider what I say. If what I say sounds reasonable for you, maybe a good idea to test drive, take that idea for a test drive, and see if that works for you, because it might not.' Right?  I think, I really encourage people to learn for themselves and to listen to their own internal wisdom that's always talking. So listen to smart people. I don't know if Lisa and I are in that category, Lisa is, listen to her. But at the same time, do your own, learning through exploration and trial and error, and personal kind of curiosity and drive.  For me, I opened my first gym at 26; first personal training centre in Australia, there weren't any. I'd never done a business course, I've never done an admin course, I knew nothing about marketing. I knew nothing about employees. I knew nothing. But I learned more in one year than I would say, most people would learn in five years at university studying business, because I was in the middle of it, and I was going to sink or swim. So in one year, I started a business and I acquired overwhelming knowledge and skill because I had to, because of the situation. But that was all learning through doing.  The way that you've learned, you know you said earlier that, like, a lot of people think that they're not academic; therefore, they're not smart. Some of the smartest people I've ever met, and I don't— and this not being patronising, but like, mind-blowingly brilliant, how they think, live outside of academia. One of the reasons some people are so brilliant outside of academia is because they're not forced into an echo chamber of thought. They're living outside the academic paradigm, where we're not trying to restrict how you think or write or speak. There are no rules out here. So there's no intellectual inhibition.  Lisa: Yeah, I love that. Craig: When you do a PhD, like me, and I can separate the two, thankfully. But there's a way of communicating and writing in PhD land, which is incredibly restrictive because of the scientific process, which is fine, I get that. But it's having an awareness of— this is what I'm often talking to my supervisors about is, yes, I'm studying this thing, which is deep, deep neuropsychology, and everything, the way that you do your research, get your data or interpret your data. The whole process of creating new science, which is what you're doing as a PhD, creating, bringing something new into the world. That's one thing. But you write your journal articles, which is my PhD process, you get them, hopefully, you get them published in academic resources and magazines. But then, I don't want that to be it. I'm going to write a book when I finish about all of my research totally in layman's terms so that people can use the knowledge, so that people can— because that's the value.  For me handing in some papers and going, ‘Oh, Craig Harper is an academically published author.' That's cool, but it's not— and I'm so respectful of people who have had hundreds of things published, but that doesn't blow my socks off. I'm not really— like that's a real, you really hang your hat on that in academia. Oh, how many things he or she had published, publications, which is cool. They're all smarter than me. But I'm not. I'm like, yeah, that that's cool. But I want to connect with the masses, not the few. Also, by the way, people who read academic papers, they raise it— they're reading it generally, just like I am right now, for a specific reason which relates to their own research. There ain't too many people like you. You're one of the rare ones who just thumb through fucking academic journals to make your life better. Lisa: Yeah. And it's just some real goals. So you've got the wisdom of having lived outside of academia and being a pracademic, as Paul Taylor says, and then actually seeing the pre— and this is a discussion that I had when I was talking to someone about doing a PhD and they say, ‘But then you're going to become a part of the establishment, and you're going to be forced into this box.' And I said, ‘No, not necessarily because it's— I can see where you're coming from. But you can take that, because you have that maturity and that life experience and you can fit yourself into the box that you have to fit into in order to get those things done. That research done, but you don't have to stay there.'  That's what you know, one of my things has been, I don't want to spend however many years doing a PhD, and then that's not out on the world. To me that that needs to be taken out of the academic journals, wherever you go to publish, and then put out into a book or something that where it's actually shared, like you say, with the masses, because otherwise, it just collects dust like your MA does, or your whatever, you know, that sits on your bookshelf, and how you got hey, your exam your piece of paper, but you didn't actually do anything with it.  Of course, lots of people do their thing, they're going like they're in research, and they're furthering research and so on. But I— my approach, I think yours is too, is to be able to communicate that information that you've learned, and then share it with everyone, so that they can actually benefit from it, and not just the people that are in academia. The other thing I see after interviewing hundreds of doctors and scientists and people is that they are, actually, the more specialised they are, the more inhibited they are by what they can and can't say.  While they need to be doing that because they need to protect what they are doing in their studies and what they're allowed to and what they're not allowed to do and say, it also is very inhibiting, and they don't get the chance to actually express what they would actually like to say. That's a bit of a shame, really, because you don't get to hear the real truth in the qualifying everything flat stick. Craig: I reckon you're exactly right. But they don't need to be that. And the reason that a lot of academics are like that is because they get their identity and sense of self-worth from being an academic. They're way more worried about three of their peers hearing something that might not be 100% accurate, and then being reprimanded or, rather than just going— look, I always say to my academic, super academic friends, when I talk with them, not everything that comes out of your mouth needs to be research-based. You can have an idea and an opinion. In fact, I want to hear your ideas and opinions. Lisa: You're very educated. Craig: You know, that's the— and as for the idea of you becoming an academic, No, you go, you do your thing you study, you learn the protocol, the operating system, and you do that you go through that process, but you're still you. Right, and there's— you and I both know, there are lots of academics who have overcome that self-created barrier like Andrew Huberman.  Lisa: Yeah, who we love. Craig: Who we love, who, for people listening, he's @hubermanlab on Insta, and there's quite a few academics now, like the one that I spoke on before, on Joe Rogan. She's a Harvard professor, she's a genius, and she's just having a— it's a three-hour conversation with Rogan, about really interesting stuff.  There's been a bit of a shift, and there is a bit of a shift because people are now, the smart academics, I think, are now starting to understand that used the right way, that podcasts and social media more broadly, are unbelievably awesome tools to share your thoughts and ideas and messages. By the way, we know you're a human. If you get something wrong, every now and then, or whatever, it doesn't matter. Lisa: Well, we'll all get, I mean, you watch on social media, Dr Rhonda Patrick, another one that I follow? Do you follow her? Fantastic lady, you know, and you watch some of their feeds on social media, and they get slammed every day by people who pretending to be bloody more academic than her. That just makes me laugh, really. I'm just like, wow, they have to put up with all of that. The bigger your name and the more credibility you have as a scientist, the more you have to lose in a way.  You know, even David Sinclair another you know, brilliant scientists who loves his work. And I love the fact that he shared us with, you know, all his, all his research in real-time, basically, you know, bringing it out in the book Lifespan, which you have to read, in getting that out there in the masses, rather than squirrelling it away for another 20 years before it becomes part of our culture, and part of our clinical usage. We ain't got time for that. We have to, we're getting old now. I want to know what I need to do to stop that now. Thanks to him, you know, I've got some directions to show them. Whether he's 100% there, and he's got all the answers? No. But he's sharing where we're at from the progress. Science by its very nature is never finished. We never have the final answer. Because if someone thinks they do, then they're wrong, because they're not, we are constantly iterating and changing, and that's the whole basis of science. Craig: Well just think about the food pyramid. That was science for a few decades. Lisa: Lots of people still believe that shit. That's the scary thing because now that's filtering still down into the popular culture, that that's what you should be doing, eating your workbooks and God knows what. This is the scary thing, that it takes so long to drip down to people who aren't on that cutting edge and staying up with the latest stuff, because they're basically regurgitating what there was 20 years ago and not what is now.  Now Craig, I know you've got to jump off in a second. But I wanted to just ask one more question, if I may, we're completely different. But I want to go there today because I'm going through this bloody shingles thing. Your mate Johny that you train, and who you've spoken about on the last podcast, who had a horrific accident and amazingly survived, and you've helped him, and he's helped you and you've helped him learn life lessons and recover, but he's in constant chronic pain.  I'm in constant chronic pain now, that's two and a half weeks. For frick's sake, man, I've got a new appreciation of the damage that that does to society. I just said to my husband today, I've been on certain drugs, you know, antivirals, and in pain medication. I can feel my neurotransmitters are out of whack. I can feel that I'm becoming depressed. I have a lot of tools in my toolbox to deal with this stuff, and I am freely sharing this because what I want you to understand is when you, when you're dealing with somebody who is going through chronic pain, who has been on medications and antibiotics, and God knows whatever else, understanding the stuff that they're going through, because I now have a bit of a new appreciation for what this much of an appreciation for someone like Johnny's been through. What's your take on how pain and all this affects the neurotransmitters in the drugs? Craig: Do you know what? Lisa: You got two minutes, mate. Craig: I'm actually gonna give you I'm gonna hook you up with a friend of mine. His name is Dr Cal Friedman. He is super smart, and he specialises in pain management, but he has a very different approach, right? He's a medical doctor, but look, in answer to, I talked to Johnny about the pain a bit, and we have, we use a scale, obviously 10 is 10. 0 is 0. There's never a 0. Every now and then it's a 1 or 2, but he's never pain-free. Because he has massive nerve damage. And sometimes, sometimes he just sits down in the gym, and he'll just, I'll get him to do a set of something, and he'll sit down and I just see this, his whole face just grimaces. He goes, ‘Just give me a sec.' His fist is balled up. He goes, sweat, sweat. I go, ‘What's going on, mate?' He goes, ‘It feels like my leg, my whole leg is on fire.'  Lisa: Yeah. I can so relate to that right now.  Craig: Literally aren't, like, burning, like excruciating. I don't think there's any, I mean, obviously, if there was we'd all be doing it. There is no quick fix. There is no simple answer. But what he has done quite successfully is changed his relationship with pain. There is definitely, 100% definitely, a cognitive element to, of course, the brain is, because the brain is part of the central nervous system. Of course, the brain is involved. But there's another element to it beyond that, right.  I'm going to tell you a quick story that might fuck up a little bit of Dr Cal, if you get him on. He has done a couple of presentations for me at my camps. He's been on my show a little bit. But he told this story about this guy at a construction site that was working and he had a workplace accident. And he, a builder shot a three-inch nails through his boots, through his foot. Right? So the nail went through his foot, through the top of the leather, and out the sole, and he was in agony, right? He fell down, whatever and he's just rolling around in agony and his mates, they didn't want to take anything off because it was through the boot, through his foot.  They waited for the ambos to get there, and they gave him the green whistle. So you know that whatever that is, the morphine didn't do anything, he was still in agony. He was in agony. Anyway, they get him into the back of the ambulance and they cut the boot off. And the nail has gone between his big toe and second toe and didn't even touch his foot.  Lisa: Oh, wow. In other words, psychologically—  Craig: There was no injury. But the guy was literally in excruciating pain, he was wailing. And they gave him treatment, it didn't help. He was still in pain. So what that tells us— Lisa: There is an element of—  Craig: What that tells us is our body can, our mind can create real, not perceived, but real pain in your body. And again, and this is where I think we're going in the future where we start to understand, if you can create extreme pain in your body where there is no biological reason, there is no actual injury, there's no physical injury, but you believe there's an injury, now you're in agony.  I think about, and there's a really good book called Mind Over Medicine by a lady called Lissa Rankin, which we might have spoken about. L-I-S-S-A, Lissa Rankin, Mind Over Medicine. What I love about her is, she's a medical doctor, and she gives case after case after case of healing happening with the mind, where people think placebos and no-cebos, people getting sick, where they think they're getting something that will make them sick, but it's nothing, they actually make themselves sick. And conversely, people getting well, when they're not actually being given a drug. They're being given nothing, but they think it's something. Even this, and this is fascinating, this operation, pseudo-operation I did with people where—  Lisa: Yeah, I read that one. I read that study. Craig: Amazing. Craig: Oh, yeah, it's look, pain is something that even the people who are experts in it, they don't fully understand. Lisa: Well, I just like, if I can interrupt you there real briefly, because I've been studying what the hell nerve pain, and I'm like, my head, my sores are starting to heal up right. So in my head, I'm like ‘Whoa, I should be having this pain, I'm getting more pain from the burning sensation in my legs and my nerves because it's nerve pain.' So I read somewhere that cryotherapy was good. So in the middle of the night, when I'm in really bad pain, instead of lying there and just losing my shit, and have I now have been getting up every night and having two or three cold ice-cold showers a night, which probably not great for my cortisol bloody profile, but it's, I'm just targeting that leg. That interrupts the pain sensation for a few minutes.  What I'm trying to do as I go, I'm trying to go like, can I—am I getting pain because my brain is now used to having pain? Is it sending those messages, even though there's no need, the sores are healing?  Craig: That is possible. Lisa: Am I breaking? And I can break the pain for about 10 minutes, and then it will come back in again. But I'm continuing on with it, that idea that I can interrupt that pain flow. Then of course, during the breathe in, the meditation, the stuff and sometimes you just lose your shit and you lose it, and then you just start crying, ‘Mummy, bring me some chicken soup' type moments. But it's really interesting. I mean, I just like to look at all these shit that we go from and then say, ‘Well, how can I dissect this and make this a learning curve?' Because obviously, there's something wrong, but I just, I feel for people that are going through years of this. Craig: It's, yeah, I'm the same I feel. Sometimes I work with people, where I work with and as do you, I work with a lot of people who have real problems. I don't have any problems. I mean, they have real problems. And I'm, despite my appearance, I'm quite, I'm very compassionate. It's hard for me because I, it upsets me to see people in pain. I feel simultaneously sad and guilty. How do I deserve this? But it just is what it is. But people like John and a lot of the people that I've worked with and you've worked with, you know, people like that inspire me.  I mean, they're— I don't find typical heroes inspirational. They don't really inspire me like the people we normally hold up as, I mean, well done. I think they're great, but they don't inspire me. People who inspire me or people who really, how the fuck are you even here? How do you turn up? He turns up. He's actually in hospital right now because he's got a problem that's being fixed. But, and he's in and out of hospital all of the time. And then he turns up, he hugs me and he goes, ‘How are you?' I go, ‘I'm good.' He goes, ‘Now look at me.' So I look at him. And he goes, ‘How are you really?' And I go, ‘I'm good.' This is the guy who—  Lisa: Who's dealing with so much. I've got a friend, Ian Walker8, who I've had on the show, too, so he got hit by a truck when he was out cycling, I think it was years and years ago. He ended up a paraplegic. And then he recovered, he didn't recover, he's still in a wheelchair, but he was out racing his wheelchair, he did wheelchair racing, and he's part of our club and stuff. And then he got hit by another truck, now he's a quadriplegic.  This guy, just, he is relentless in his attitude, like he is, and I've seen him dragging himself like with his hands because he's got access now to his hands again. After working for the last couple of years, and he kind of, on a walker frame thing, dragging himself two steps and taking a little video of him, dragging his feet, not the feet out, working, they're just being dragged. But the relentless attitude of the guy, I'm just like, ‘You're a fricking hero. You're amazing. Why aren't you on everybody magazine cover? Why aren't you like, super famous?' Those people that really flip my boat. Craig: Yeah. And I

We're often told not to care too much about what other people think of us. However, understanding how others perceive us can play to our advantage. Sometimes we fail to see our own mistakes or flaws, and to overcome this, we need to develop self-awareness by looking at ourselves from a different perspective. Once we realise our flaws, we can do better and achieve high performance. Craig Harper joins us in this episode to discuss how self-awareness can lead to high performance. He also explains the importance of external awareness or the ability to understand how others perceive us. We also talk about events that changed our life perspectives and how to live aligned with our values. If you want to increase your self-awareness and achieve high performance, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program optimising fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance for your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover what external self-awareness is and how it can help you achieve high performance. Find out why motivation alone doesn't work. Learn how to live in alignment for a healthy and meaningful life.   Resources The You Project Podcast with Craig Harper The You Project #360: Embracing the Suck with Lisa Tamati Check out Craig's books. Connect with Craig: Website | Instagram | Linkedin BrainPark   Episode Highlights [03:44] About Craig Craig used to be the fattest kid in school until he decided to lose weight at 14 years old. Curious about fitness and nutrition, he started working in gyms.  Craig eventually set up his first personal training centre in Australia. At 36 years old, Craig went to university to study Exercise Science. Realising the importance of understanding human behaviour, he's now taking a PhD in neuropsychology. [08:58] External Self-Awareness Being self-aware means understanding how other people perceive, process and experience you. You can make better connections when you know what it's like for people to be around you. Going into a situation assuming others have the same mindset can create problems. Acknowledging your lack of awareness is the first step in overcoming it.  [15:20] On High Performance High performance answers the question of how you can do better.  It applies to all aspects of life.  For Craig, high performance means getting the most out of your potential, resources and time. Listen to the full episode to get a rundown of the principles you need to achieve high performance. [16:14] Recognising Your Programming Humans have the power to recognise and change how they see the world. Because we do the same things daily, we fall into living unconsciously.  When our approach doesn't give us the results we want, it might be time to try something different. It may be not easy, but going out of our comfort zones makes us stronger.  [28:43] Working Around Genetic Predispositions What you're born with doesn't change the fact that your choices have power. Focus on things you can control and own the situation at hand. Be careful that self-awareness doesn't become self-deprecation. From there, focus on how you can attain high performance.  [33:42] Reflecting on Your Relationships Despite his nutrition expertise, Craig faces a constant battle to make good food choices.  Reflect on your relationship with food. Is it good or bad? Healthy or unhealthy? You can apply this to other aspects of your life as well. Doing this opens the door to self-management and self-awareness.  [37:51] Where People Get Their Sense of Self We learn that self-esteem, self-worth and identity is an outside-in process. Craig's theory is that it's an inside-out process.  The external and observable things don't matter as much as the things happening internally. Listen to the full episode to find out how two experiences in Craig's life put his life into perspective. [1:00:38] Motivation Alone Doesn't Work A lot of people rely on their current state of motivation to get things done.  What's important is how willing you are to put in the work despite the inconvenience and discomfort. [1:02:25] Live in Alignment Ask yourself if you're willing to put in the work to achieve your goals.  You can live in alignment with your values by following an operating system based on them.  Listen to the full episode to know the questions you need to ask yourself to create this operating system.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘Firstly, I've got as many issues as anyone that I work with. And this is not self-loathing; this is me just going, "Okay, so how do I do better?" And this for me is the process of high performance’. ‘Nobody is totally objective or open-minded because the human experience is subjective’. ‘Real awareness and consciousness is to first be aware of your lack of awareness’. ‘The only person that can ever really get in my way is me, you know. But also, I'm the solution to me’. ‘So we get taught directly or indirectly that self-esteem and self-worth and identity is an outside-in process. My theory is that it is the other way around—it is an inside out journey’. ‘Of course, there's nothing wrong with building a great business... or whatever. That's not bad, but it's not healthy when that's the totality of who we are’. ‘I don't care what you get done when you're motivated; I care what you get done when you're not motivated because everyone's a champion when they're in the zone’.   About Craig Craig Harper is one of Australia's leading presenters, writers and educators in health, high performance, resilience, self-management, leadership, corporate change, communication, stress management, addiction and personal transformation.  Craig has been an integral part of the Australian health and fitness industry since 1982. He has worked as an Exercise Scientist, Corporate Speaker, Consultant, University Lecturer, AFL Conditioning Coach, Radio Host, TV Presenter, Writer and successful Business Owner. In 1990, Craig established Harper's Personal Training, which evolved into one of the most successful businesses of its kind.  Craig currently hosts a successful Podcast called 'The You Project'. He is also partnering with the Neuroscience Team at Monash University, where he's completing a neuropsychology PhD. There, he studies the spectrum of human thinking and behaviour.  Craig speaks on various radio stations around Australia weekly. He also hosted his weekly show on Melbourne radio called 'the Science of Sport' for a decade. Craig currently fills an on-air role as a presenter on a lifestyle show called 'Get a Life', airing on Foxtel.  As an Exercise Scientist, Craig has worked with many professional athletes and teams. While still working with groups and individuals regularly, Craig delivers more than one hundred corporate presentations annually. Want to know more about Craig and his work? Check out his website, or follow him on Instagram and Linkedin!   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so that they can develop their self-awareness and achieve high performance. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. This week I have Craig Harper to guest. Now, Craig is a very well-known media personality, exercise scientist, crazy fitness guru, owns some of the biggest personal training gyms in Australia, has a huge track record as a corporate speaker, motivational speaker, worked with Olympians, worked with all sorts of athletes across a number of different sports. And he's absolutely hilarious. I really enjoyed this interview, I was on Craig's show a couple of weeks ago, The You Project, you can go and check that one out as well. A great podcast. And today we sort of did a deep dive into everything around self-awareness and understanding your potential and realising your potential. And just it was a really interesting conversation with a very interesting man. He's doing a PhD in understanding the experience that people have when they meet you. So, understanding how people see you. So it's a really interesting conversation. So, I hope you enjoy that.  Before we go over to the show, please give us a rating and review. We really appreciate any ratings and reviews that you give us. It's really hugely helpful for the show. It is a labour of love. We are about to if we haven't already, by the time this podcast goes live, developing a way that you guys can get involved as audience members of Pushing The Limits if you want to support the show. So stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, if you need help with your running or you need help with your health, then please reach out to us. You can reach us at lisatamati.com. You can check out our programmes on lisatamati.com. We have our epigenetics programme and our running programmes where we do customised run training systems, video analysis, working out a plan customised fully for you and you get a consult with me. We also do health optimisation, coaching. So if you are needing help with a really difficult health journey, then please reach out to us as well. Right, over to the show with Craig Harper.  Lisa Tamati: Well, welcome back everybody to Pushing The Limits. Today I have an hilarious, amazing, crazy, awesome guest for you, Craig Harper. Who doesn't know Craig Harper? If you're in Australia, you definitely know who the heck Craig Harper is. If you're in New Zealand, you probably know who Craig Harper is. And if you don't, you're about to find out. Welcome to the show! Craig, how are you doing? Craig Harper: Now I feel like I've got to live up to some kind of bloody pressure, some expectation. Nobody knows me in New Zealand. Let's start, you do and your mum. That's about it. Lisa: Me and mum, you left quite an impression on my mum. Craig: And my family, and relatives, and a few randoms over here, know who I am. But thank you, Lisa, for having me on. I'm really glad to be here. Lisa: It's awesome. Now, this is gonna be a bit of a hilarious show because Craig is a bit of a character. I was on Craig's show in Australia, The You Project and it was one of the most fun podcast interviews I've had. I mean, I love getting into the science and deep with stuff, but it was really fun to just slip my hair down so to speak and rant and rave a little bit in here, but it’s fun, so today there'll be no doubt a bit of it. Craig, can you tell the ones who don't know about you? You're in Melbourne or just outside Melbourne in Hampton, Victoria in Australia. Can you tell us a little bit of your background, your crazy amazing career that you have had? Craig: Sure. So I'll start with, well, maybe I'll go a little bit before my career because what happened before was a bit of a catalyst. So I had a pretty good childhood, all that stuff. I won't bore the listeners. But one of the things that was part of my growing up was being a fat kid, the fattest kid in my school. So that became a bit of a catalyst for me to explore getting in shape and all that stuff. So when I was 14, I lost a whole lot of weight. I was 90 something kilos, I went down to about 60 and I started training.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: I started running and I started doing bodyweight stuff I lost about—I literally lost a third of my body weight in 15 weeks. And it wasn't like I had a horrible childhood, it was fine. But I was called jumbo all through school. That was my name so the kids called me that, parents, teachers all that but believe it or not, it wasn't really hostile, or horrible, it was I don't know it's because I was this big, fat, pretty happy kid, right? But anyway, so, I got in shape, and that led me into a lot of curiosity, and exploration, and investigation in fitness and nutrition. And so I started working in gyms when I was 18 and had no idea what I was doing. The qualifications and the barriers to entry then were very low. So, I started working in gyms, Lisa, when I was 18, which was 1982. I'm 57 and I ended up in 1989, I think, I set up the first Personal Training Center in Australia.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: So, lots of other things around that. But I owned PT studios for 25 years at the biggest centre in the southern hemisphere in Brighton a few kilometres from where I'm sitting now, which was 10,000 square feet. It was bigger than lots of commercial gyms. But it was just a PT centre. Worked with elite athletes, work with the AFL over here Australian Football League with St Kilda footy club, Melbourne Vixens in the national and the Trans-Tasman League, it was then Netball League, Melbourne Phoenix, Nissan motorsport, a bunch of Olympians, blokes in prison, corporates, people with disability, normal people, abnormal people. I put me in the abnormal category.  Lisa: Yeah, definitely. Craig: And later on when—I didn't go to uni until I was 36 for the first time.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: Did a degree in exercise science. It was hilarious because I'd already been working with elite people as a conditioning coach and a strength coach. And yeah, lots of stuff. I did radio over here for about 20 years. I started my podcast a few years ago, I did television for a few years, three years on national telly. I wrote for the Herald Sun, which is the main paper in Melbourne for a while. Lots of magazines, I've written a bunch of books. I've written seven, I've written nine books, I think seven or eight of them are published. I'm looking at the books on my table, I should probably know that number. Lisa: Can’t even remember, there's so many. Craig: And, like, but really the thing that I guess where we might go today, but for me was, I realised by the time I was about 19 or 20 working in gyms, I realised that how much I knew about bodies wasn't nearly as important as how much I understood human beings. And so while my understanding of anatomy and physiology and biomechanics and movement and energy systems, and progressive overload, and adaptation and recovery, and all of those things wasn't great, to be honest, like I was 20.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: But it was all right. And it improved over time. But what really mattered was how well I understood human behaviour. Because as you and I know, we can give someone a programme and direction and education and encouragement and support and resources, and not knowledge and awareness. But that doesn't mean they're going to go and do the work. And it definitely doesn't mean they're going to create the result. And it definitely doesn't mean they're going to explore their talent or their potential. And so yeah, it's been from when I was 18...  Lisa: So you've gone in it? Craig: Yeah, from when I was 18 till now, it's just been lots of different roles and lots of different places. And I guess the other main bit before I shut up was I realised when I was about 20, that I didn't like having a boss much. And not that...  Lisa: We got that in common.  Craig: In my back, my boss was a good dude. But I thought I don't want to be, like, I could do this for me. I don't need to do this for you. And so the last time I had a boss was 32 years ago. So I've been working for myself since I was 25. Lisa: Wow, that's freaking awesome. And what an amazing career and so many books, and I know that you're actually doing a PhD at the moment. So what's your PhD? And why did you choose this sort of a subject for your PhD? Craig: Yeah, so my PhD is in neuropsychology/neuroscience. So, I'm at Monash over here, we have a facility called Bryan Park, which is cool. There's lots of cool stuff there. That's where I'm based. And my research is in a thing called external self-awareness, which is understanding the ‘you’ experience for others. So in other words, it's your ability to be able to understand how other people perceive and process and experience ‘you'.  Lisa: Wow, that is a fascinating subject.  Craig: Which is, very little research on it. So I'm, I've created a scale, which is to measure this component of psychology or communication or awareness. And so I'm doing—I'm putting that through the grill at the moment, getting that validated. I’m doing two studies. The first study is being run kind of soon. But yeah, the whole research is around this thing of ‘What's it like being around me and do I know what it's like being around me'? Not from an insecurity point of view, but from an awareness point of view because when I understand, for example, the Craig experience for Lisa or for an audience or in front of all for the person I'm coaching, or the athlete I'm working with, or the drug addict, the person with addictive issues that I'm sitting with, then if I understand what it's like being around me, I can create greater and deeper connection. But one of the mistakes that a lot of leaders, and coaches, and managers, and people in positions of authority make is that they assume that people just understand what they're saying. Or they assume that people think like them. When in reality, the only person who thinks exactly like me in the world is me.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And the only person who thinks like Lisa Tamati exactly all the time, 24/7 is Lisa, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So when I go into a conversation, or a situation, or a process, or a negotiation, or an encounter with somebody, and I assume that they think like me or understand like me, or that my intention is their experience, which is rarely the case, I'm more likely to create problems and solutions.  Lisa: Yeah. And you're not going to hit the nail on the head and actually get the results for where that person that you are wanting to get.  Craig: Yeah, and that is... Lisa: This is a real powerful thing because you know what I mean, just maybe as you were talking there, I was like, ‘Well, how do people perceive me?', that's an interesting thought because you just sort of go through your daily interactions with people, and you think you're a compassionate, empathetic person who gets everything in, you’re sort of picking up on different cues and so on. But then to actually think how is that person experiencing me, and I like, as a coach, as I develop as a coach, I've had problems when I'm doing one on one, and that I'm overwhelming people sometimes because I'm so passionate and so full of information. And I've had to, and I'm still learning to fit that to the person that I'm talking to. And because, for me, it's like, I've got so much information, I want to fix you and help you. And I was like, ‘Woohoo', and the person was like, ‘Heh'. Craig: So you and I connect because we're kind of similar, right? And I love that, I love your craziness and your energy, and you're full-onness. But you and I, unless we are aware around some people, we will scare the fuck out of them.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: So, that's why it's important that people like—all of us really not just you and I, but that we have an awareness of what is the leisure experience for this because like, let's say, for example, you've got five athletes, and you want to inspire them and get them in the zone, motivate them, and they're all in front of you. And so you give all of them in the same moment. And let's say they're five similar athletes in a similar, if not the same sport with a similar goal—doesn't matter—but the reality is they are five different human beings, right? They've got five different belief systems and backgrounds and sets of values and prejudices and like and emotional states, and so you're not talking to the same person. But when you deliver the same message to five different humans, and you expect the same connection? We're not thinking it through.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So and of course, you can't create optimal connection with everyone all the time. But this is just part of the, ‘What's it like? What's their experience of me like?' And again, it's not about ‘Oh, I'm insecure, and I want them to like me'. No, it's about, ‘I need to understand how they perceive and process me so that I can create connection'. And look, the other really interesting thing about psychology and the human experience, and metacognition, thinking about thinking more broadly, is that all of us think we're open-minded and objective, but none of us are. Nobody is totally objective or open-minded because the human experience is subjective.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, even me who understands this and is doing a PhD in it and teaches it. Well, people go back and you objective and I go, ‘No, I wish I was in it. I'd like to say I am because it sounds fucking great, but I'm not'. And the reason that I'm not is because wherever I go, my ego, my issues, my beliefs, my values, my limitations, my biases, go with me.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And they are the window through which I view and process the world, right?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, our ego wants us to say, ‘Of course, I'm objective. Of course, I'm open-minded'. But the truth is, and with some things, we will be more objective and open-minded because we don't really have a pre-existing idea about it. But on a global or a broad level, our stuff goes with us everywhere, and the beginning of, without getting too deep or philosophical, but awareness—real awareness and consciousness—is to first be aware of your lack of awareness. Lisa: Love it. That is amazing. Yeah. Craig: You can't overcome the thing you won't acknowledge, or you can't get good at the thing you won't do. Right? And so I have to go, 'Firstly, I'm flawed. Firstly, I've got as many issues as anyone that I work with.’ And this is not self-loathing, this is me just going, ‘Okay, so how do I do better?' And this for me, this is the process of performance, high performance, whether it's at sport, at life, at recovery, at relationships, at connection—doesn't matter—high performance is high performance. For me, high performance means getting the most out of you and your potential and your resources and your time.  Lisa: Yup. Craig: And so the principles that work with becoming an elite athlete, most of those principles work with building a great business.  Lisa: Yep, they grow further. Craig: Which is why physicians follow through, get uncomfortable, do the work, show up, don't give up, ask great questions, persevere, roll up your sleeves, pay attention to your results, improvise, adapt, overcome. Like, this is not new stuff.  Lisa: Know that it rolls off your tongue pretty damn well because you've been in this space for a long time. And a lot of us like to go into that whole, our bias and yell at the future that we see the world through the lens, which we look through. We're not aware like, we love the programming. And this is what I had done a lot of work on for myself, the programming that I got as a kid, that I downloaded into my subconscious is running the ship, basically, and I can, as an educated, hopefully, wiser woman now, go ‘Hang on a minute, that little voice that just popped up in my head and told me, ‘I'm not good enough to do that', is not me talking. That's the programme. That's the programme I downloaded when I was, I don't know, seven or eight or something. And it's a product of that conditioning.’ And I can actually go in, and then it's that to change that story. Because that, and I think a lot of us are just running on automatic, we're still playing.  I'll give you an example. So when my mum was a kid, she was up on stage and doing a speech at school when she froze, right? And she got laughed off the stage. And kids can be nasty. And so forever in a day, she was like, ‘I will not ever speak in public again'. Because she'd had this experience as a what, a seven or eight-year-old. And she was telling me the story as a 40-something, 50-something year-old. 'No, I'm not ever getting up in a public space because', and I'm like, 'But that's just—you are not that seven or eight year old now. And you can have a choice to make that changes', and she couldn't make that change until she had the aneurysm. And then she forgot all those memories, some of those memories were gone, and that inhibition was gone. And now she'll get up and talk on stage in front of like 500 doctors. Craig: That's amazing. I love it. And what you just articulated beautifully. The core of a lot of what I do, which is recognising your programming and where does my stories, or my stories finish? And where do I start?  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: So, you think about it, from everyone listening to this from when we could reason anything, or process any data around us or understand anything from when we—I don't know, two, three months, really probably earlier but until listening to this podcast right now, all of us have been trained, and taught, and told, and programmed, and conditioned. And then, now here we are. And it's being aware of that and me to everyone is like, ‘Well, my beliefs', like think about when did you choose your beliefs?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Pretty much never. They’re just there, and they’re there as a byproduct of your journey. Now that's okay, that's not bad or good. That's normal. Well, the next question is, are all of your beliefs, do they serve you? Well, the answer is no. Do any of them sabotage you? Well, a shitload! Okay, so let's put them under the microscope. So you know that word that I used before metacognition is, in a nutshell, thinking about thinking where and this is where we go, hang on. Let's just step out of the groundhog-dayness of our existence which you also spoke of, like, and let's go hang on. Because what we do, on a level we live consciously that is I've got to think about where I'm driving, and I've got to figure out what I'm giving the kids for dinner or what I'm getting, what time I'm training or, but really, on a real fundamental macro level. We live largely unconsciously...  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: ...because we kind of do the same shit the same way...  Lisa: Everyday. Craig: ...same conversations, even you and I know. Like, I've been training in the gym since I was 14, that's 43 years, I watch people go to the gym who always do the same fucking workout.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Same rep, the same set, same treadmill, same speed, same inclines, same boxing, same everything, same intensity, same workload, same machines. And then they say, why isn't my body changing? Well because it doesn't need to.  Lisa: No. Given the status quo, you don’t. Craig: Because you're stimulating it the same way.  Lisa: I was working in that for years. Craig: And we can expand that to life. Whereas we, kind of, I was talking to a lady yesterday about this, and she was telling me about a conversation she has with her son who's got some issues, who's 17. And I will be really honest, ‘How many times have you had a version of that conversation with him?’ She goes, ‘1,000'.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: I go, ‘And how's that going?’ Now, that might be an exaggeration. But the bottom line is, but nonetheless, despite the fact that it didn't work the first 999 times, she's doing it again.  Lisa: She’ll keep doing it.  Craig: So it's about, and again, it's not about beating ourselves up, it's about gamble, whatever I'm doing, whether or not it's with this relationship, or this training programme, or this habit, or behaviour, or this business, whatever I'm doing isn't working. So let's have a new conversation or no conversation, or let's try a different protocol, or let's change the way I sleep.  Lisa: Isn't that like the circuitry in the brain, when you do something for the first time that’s really hard. Because you're creating a new connection in the brain. And therefore, we go into these old routines and habits, even though we don't want to be doing them anymore, but the groove and the brain is so well-worn, that path is so—those synapses of connected or whatever they do in there, and that path is so well-worn, that it's the path of least resistance for our lazy brains, and our subconscious to do what it does all the time. So, when you're driving a car home, and you can have a conversation and be singing a song, and thinking about what you're cooking for dinner, and then you get to halfway into town, and you realise, ‘Hell, I can't even remember driving there', but you were doing it, and you were doing it safely. Because it was all on that subconscious, automated level. When you were first driving the car, it was a mission. And it was like, ‘Oh my god, I got to change the gears and steer and keep an eye on,' and it was all like overwhelmed, but then it got easier and easier and easier. And then with our rituals and habits that we develop, we make these well-worn grooves, don't we? And then we just follow the same old, same old even though it's not getting the results that we want. And when we try and step out of our comfort zone and start doing a new habit and developing a new way, there's a lot of resistance in the brain for the first few weeks, isn't there? Until you get that groove going. And then it gets easier and easier and easier once you've done it 100 times. Is that what you're sort of saying here? Craig: Yeah. I mean, that's perfect. I mean, you nailed it. Look, the thing is that everything that we do for the first time, for most of us, nearly everything, unless we've done something very similar before, but it's hard.  Lisa: Very. Craig: So I always say everyone starts as a white belt. In the dojo, you start as a white belt.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: When as an ultramarathon, if I went, Lisa, which I wouldn't, but if I went, ‘I'm gonna run an ultramarathon'. Well, if I started training today, metaphorically, today, I'm a white belt.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: I'm a black belt at other stuff.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: I'm a green belt. I'm a yellow belt. Depends what I'm doing. Depends what—I'm not bad at talking to audiences that's... I should be pretty good at it. I've done it a million times. But take me to yoga, and I'll hide in the corner because I'm as flexible as a fucking ceramic tile. I’m a white belt. Right? I bet, put me in the gym lifting weights, I go okay, right? And so, again, this is all just about awareness, and development, and ownership. And, but the thing too, is that you're right, everything is very—we do create not only neural grooves, patterns, but also behavioural, and emotional, and cognitive grooves too, where we’re very comfortable in this space. And one of the challenges for us, it's like, it's a dichotomy. Because if everyone listening to this could somehow be involved and put up a show of hands, and we said, ‘All right, everyone. How many of you want to change something about your life or your outcomes or your situation or your body? Or your operating system or your current life experience?’ Nearly everyone's going to put up their hand.  Lisa: Yes. Craig: For something, right? Something. Then if you said, all right, ‘Now, at the same time, be brutally honest with yourself, how many of you like being comfortable?’, everyone's gonna put up their hand. So the problem is, on the one hand, we say I want to be strong, and resilient, and amazing, and produce great results, and do great shit, and grow, and develop my potential and fucking kill it, and but I don't want to get uncomfortable. Well, good luck, princess, that isn't working. It doesn't work. Lisa: The world’s a bitch really, isn't it? I mean, like it is the way it works. You need resistance. Craig: How can you get strong without working against resistance?  Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Craig: Yes. Lisa: This is just the… in my boxing gym, there was a saying on the wall, ‘Strength comes from struggle', and it's just like, ‘Oh damn, that's so right'. Like it's not what we always want. And I wish sometimes that the world was made another way. But we constantly need to be pushing up against what hurts, what is uncomfortable, it's painful just from a biology point of view being in the thermonuclear range, being nice and comfortably warm and cozy is really bad for us. And for you in that all the time, we need to go into an ice bath or cold water or go surfing or something and get cold, we need to be hot, go into a sauna. And when you do these things outside of those comfort zones, we need to lift weights in order to build stronger muscles, we need to do fasting in order to have autophagy, we need—all of these things are those stuff that is outside of pleasant. And you better get used to that idea. It's not because I want to be, like, masochistic in my approach to life. But it's just the way that the world works. If you sit on your ass being comfortable eating chips all day watching Netflix, you're not going to get the results that you're looking for. Craig: That's right. And also there's this—because we only live in the moment. And because we are, and I'm generalising, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners are not what I'm about to describe. But because many of us are very instant gratification based.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Right? It's like, the story is I'll eat this, I'll do this, I'll avoid that. But I'll start tomorrow, or I'll start Monday, or I'll start January 1. And that goes on for 15 years, right?  Lisa: Yep. We’ve all done it. Craig: And now I've backed myself into an emotional, and a psychological, and physiological corner that's hard to get out of because now, I'm 49. And my body's kind of fucked. And I've got high blood pressure. And I've got all these issues because I've been avoiding, and denying, and delaying, and lying to myself for a long time. Again, this is not everyone, so please don't get offended.  Lisa: And It's not a judgment. It's just the way it goes. Craig: No, because, I mean, this is what happens. Like, we live in this world where you can't say the truth.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And I'm not talking about being insensitive or moral judgments on people. But the thing is, it's like, when I talk about being fat, I talk about myself because then no one could get injured, insulted...  Lisa: Insulted, yup. Craig: ...or offended, right. So when I was fat, I wasn't thick-set, or full-figured or voluptuous or stocky? I was fucking fat. Right?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And, but I was fat because of my choices and behaviours.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Now, there are lots of variables around that.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: But at some stage, we have to say, and again, there are people with genetics that make stuff difficult...  Lisa: Absolutely. Craig: ...for medical conditions and all that we fully acknowledge that, but at some stage, we need to go, ‘Alright, well, I'm making decisions and doing things which are actually destroying me'.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: ‘They're actually hurting me'. And this is just about ownership and awareness and my, like, the biggest challenge in my life is me, the biggest problem in my life is me. Like, the only person that can ever really get in my way is me. But also, I'm the solution to me. Lisa: I think it's a willingness to work on it. And like, I've looked into addictions and things quite a lot too, because I know that I have an addictive personality trait. I have genetics that are predisposed to that, and I do everything obsessively. So whether that's running for like a billion kilometres, or whether that's running five companies, or whether that's whatever I'm doing, I'm doing like an extreme version of that because it's just, like, I have that type of personality and it is genetics. And I find that that's one of the study of genetics for me, it's so interesting, there's a lot of predisposition in there. However, that does not negate the fact that I can still make choices, and I can turn the ship around. And I need to be aware of those predispositions, just like mum's got some predispositions towards cardiovascular disease and putting on weight very easily. That's just a fact of life for her, and it's not pleasant. And compared to other genetic types, it's a bit of a disadvantage. However, it is a fact. And therefore, she can still make the right choices for her body.  And this is why I like working in the genetic space is really, really powerful because then I can say, well, it's not my fault that my genes are like this, but they are what they are, and we can remove some of the judgment on ourselves because I think when we—if we're judging ourselves all the time, that's not helpful either, because that stuff we’re like, ‘Oh, well, I'm just useless. And then I'm never gonna do anything,’ rather than empowering and say, ‘Well, it is what it is, the genes that I've been given are these, the environment that I've exposed to is this, the advertising and all that sort of stuff that's coming at us with McDonald's on every street corner and all of that sort of stuff, I can't influence there. What I can influence is I can educate myself and I can start to make better choices from my particular body and start taking ownership of that process and not just going, well, it's not my fault that I'm bigger boned.’ You may be bigger-boned or bigger, have genetics that are all about conservation. Then you need to be doubly careful. And put in the education, and the time, and the work, and I think it's about taking ownership and not judging yourself by getting on with the job. Like I know, like, I know my own personal and—what did you say to me the first time I met you? Something that was real self-aware anyway, without self-deprecating, and it was self-aware? I can't remember what it was that you said, it is a man who knows his own weakness and is working on it. And I think that's really key. Like, I know what I'm shit at and... Craig: And that’s not self-loathing, that's self-awareness. And here's the thing, we're all about learning and growing. And I love my life, and I'm aware that I've got some skills and gifts. I'm also aware that I've got lots of flaws and shit I need to work on. And for some people, that's part of just the journey for other people, they are in a bit of a groundhog day. I always say if you're in a bit of a groundhog day, but you're happy then stay there. Because don't change because this is how I—don't be like me, for God's sake be like you. But if being like you, if your normal operating system equals anxiety, and sleeplessness and a bit of depression, and a bit of disconnection, and I'm not talking purely about mental health, I'm just talking about that state that we all get in, which is a bit like, ‘Fuck, I don't love my life, this wasn't where I thought I would be.’  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Then maybe start to work consciously on and acknowledge, there's some things that you can't change, some you can, and literally what you were talking about a minute ago, which is literally, ‘Okay, so there's what I've got, which is I've got these genetics, I've got 24 hours in a day. I'm 57. I've got this, these are the things I have, then there's what I do with it all.’ So I'm an endomorph. I walk past a doughnut, my ass gets bigger. That's my body type, right? So I need to go, ‘Alright, well with these, or with this disposition, how do I manage optimally with 24 hours in a day without them using the least?’  Lisa: You’ve done a lot by the little sea, Craig. Craig: How do I manage my 24 hours optimally?  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: How do I? It's like, I eat two meals a day. I don't recommend anyone else does that.  Lisa: For even the most, it’s great. Craig: But for me, I don't… Lisa: For an endomorph, that’s great. Craig: I’m an 85-kilo dude with a bit of muscle. I don't need much food. Like, I would love to eat all the fucking food because I love food. What happens when I eat what I want versus what I need is I get fat. So I differentiate between: what does my body need to be lean, strong, functional, healthy versus what does Craig the fucking ex-fat kid want to inhale?  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Because, and the other thing too. And this is probably a bit irrelevant. Maybe relevant, though, for a lot of people. Like I would say, of the people that I've worked with closer over the years, which is thousands and thousands.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: I would say most people, including me, have a relationship with food that’s somewhere on the scale between a little bit disordered and an eating disorder, right?  Lisa: Yup. Craig: And a little bit not always...  Lisa: I’ll cook my end up then. It’s always an issue. Craig: At the other end of the scale, I'm a fucking lunatic around food, right? Now, you're educated, I'm educated, but I tell people all the time. So if I was an addict, and by the way, I've never drank, never smoked, never done drugs. But if I have started drugs or alcohol, I would have probably...  Lisa: Done it well. Craig: ...a drunk and used for Australia, right? I probably would have been a champion because I'm like you. I'm addictive. Now my addiction is food. So you know people think, ‘But you're educated. But you're this, you're that.’ It doesn't matter. Like, I need to manage myself. Lisa: Still won’t hit pie. Craig: Yeah, I need to manage myself around food. Lisa: Yeah, daily.  Craig: Because if I open the cheesecake door, get out of the fucking way. Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Right?  Lisa: I hear you.  Craig: If I open certain doors that derails me, so I need to know. And this is the same with everybody. And it's like, we all have a relationship with food. Okay. Is yours good or bad? healthy or unhealthy? Don't overthink it, just be real. We all have a relationship with our body. How’s that going? We all have a relationship with exercise, activity movement. How’s that going? We all have a relationship with money. We all have a relationship with our ego. It's like, this is opening the door on self-awareness and self-management law to a new level. Lisa: Yeah, love it. Yeah, and this is going to be a fascinating PhD. I really—I can't wait to find out more about it. And I think just having that self-awareness, like I will freely say like, I've struggled with my body image, and who I am, and am I acceptable, and I was always trying to be the skinny little modern girl when I was young, and gymnast, and as a kid, and so struggled immensely with body image issues. And people will look at me now and they go, ‘Oh, whatever, you're lean and you're fit obviously and you don't ever—you wouldn't understand.’ Oh, you have no idea how much I understand. And there's still a constant daily battle: even though I'm educated, even though I know exactly what I should be and shouldn't be doing, I don't always succeed against my —that in a sort of drive that sometimes when you get out of balance, and this is why for me like keeping myself, when I say imbalance, I mean like keeping my neurotransmitters under wraps like in a nice, ordered fashion because I have a tendency to dopamine and adrenaline being my dominant hormones, right?  So I'm just like, go, go, go! Do your absolute blow, take a jump and risk, don't think about it, do go and then burn out, crash bang! And so I need to, I need to have constant movement, I need to do the meditation thing regularly. Like before this podcast, I took five minutes to get my brain back into this space because I wanted to do a good interview. And I wasn't going to do that in this stressed-out body, I'd been doing too much admin work for 10 hours. So, I know how to manage those things. And it's the management on an everyday basis that I think and having those tools in your toolkit so that you know how to pull it up, I can feel my adrenaline going, I can feel the anger rising, I better go for a sprint out to the letterbox and back. Whatever it takes. Does it resonate with you? Craig: Yeah, 100%. What's interesting is I've been around—I worked, one of the things I didn't mention, I worked at a drug and alcohol rehabilitation centre for three years just as their kind of, what’s my title? Buddy health something, manager something, but I would only work there one day a week with them, but work with lots of addicts and alcoholics, and also athletes and all those things. But the thing is, especially with athletes, athletes tend to get their sense of self and their identity from their performances.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And not all, but a lot, and which is why I've known many athletes who got retired earlier than I thought. Lisa: Broke down. Craig: And well, they went into straightaway, most of them a depression or form of depression. And so this is a really interesting thing to just talk about briefly is—from a happiness and a wellness and a cognitive function, and a mental health, emotional health point of view, is to think about where you get your identity and sense of self from. Now, one of the challenges for us is, we live in a culture which is very much externally focused.  Lisa: Totally. Craig: So who you are, Lisa, who you are is what you have, and what you own, and what you wear, and what you look like, and what people think of you, and your brand, and your performance, and your outcome. All things, your shit. And I grew up in that because I was an insecure, fucking fat kid who became an insecure, muscle-y bloke. And then I woke up one day, I was 30. And I was huge, and I had muscles on my eyelids and veins everywhere. And all I was was just a bigger, more insecure version of what I used to be. Because I was still a fuckwit just in a bigger body, right? Because I wasn't dealing with the issues. Because my problem wasn't my biceps or deltoids and being my problem is, I'm mentally and emotionally bankrupt, and perhaps spiritually depending on your belief system. And so, we get taught from an early age that who you are essentially is about all things external. So we get taught directly or indirectly that self-esteem and self-worth and identity is an outside-in process.  My theory is that it is the other way around. It is an inside-out journey. It is, it's differentiating between who I am and my stuff, and recognising that everything that I have and own, and earn, and do, and my profile, and my podcast, and my results, and my brand, and my house, and my biceps, and all those physical, external observable things don't matter nearly as much from a mental and emotional health point of view as what is happening internally.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: So, and I'll shut up after this.  Lisa: No, that’s brilliant. Craig: But this is cool not because I'm sharing it, just this idea is cool, is that is the duality of the human experience. And what that means is that we live in two worlds. So where we do life is in this physical external place of situation, circumstance, environment, traffic lights, other humans, government, COVID, weather, runners, running, sport, all that external stuff, which is not bad. It's awesome, but that's where we do life. But where we do our living, where we do living is that inner space of feelings and ideas and creativity and passion and fear, and depression and anxiety and hope and joy, and overthinking and self doubt and self-loathing, and excitement and creativity. Lisa: Wow. Craig: It's trying to understand—because you and I know, at least a few people, maybe many who from the outside looking in their life is fucking amazing. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Craig: It's the Hollywood life.  Lisa: It’s so nearly like that. Craig: It's a life on the outside of shiny.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: But I've coached many of those people, trained them, worked with them, set with them. And not all, of course, some are great. But there are many people who from the outside looking in, you would go, they're really successful. That would be the label that we use in our culture.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Why are they successful? Oh, look at all of their stuff.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: All of that stuff. Those outcomes, that house and that equals that money, that equals success. But when you sit in, you talk to that person, you go, ‘Oh, this successful person doesn't sleep much, this person needs to medicate to sleep, and also for anxiety, and also for depression. And also they hate themselves, and also they feel disconnected, and also they're lonely.’ And, or if not all of that, some of that, if not all the time, some of the time, and you got all the outside and the inside don’t match.  Lisa: Don’t unlatch. Yeah.  Craig: And so it's going. And by the way, of course, there's nothing wrong with building a great business and writing five books and being an awesome runner, or whatever, building an empire. That's not bad. But it's not healthy when that's the totality of who we are. Lisa: Yeah, and spending time on the inside, and being okay with who you are. Because I often ask myself this question. What if it was all taken away from me again and I've lost—I went through my 30s, lost everything, hit start back from scratch. We've been there, done that. I've had to go through the wringer a couple of times. If everything was taken off me, my house, my achievements, my business, which could happen tomorrow, who am I? And would I be able to get back up again? And I reckon I would, because I've got tools to rebuild. And I know that resilience is the most important thing.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: The question I ask myself sometimes, so, is it whether, like, I lost my father this year, last year, sorry, six months ago, so that knocked the crap out of me...  Craig: 100%. Lisa: ...out of my resilience because that was like, up until that point, it didn't matter. If I lost my job, my car, my career, and anything else, but my family were safe, and they were all alive, then that's all I needed. And then when the chief gets taken out, the cornerstone who'd been a rock, my mum was too, but that was a cornerstone, then it didn't, it was a bit of an existential bloody crisis for me because I was like, ‘And now, life is never going to be the same again.’ And that resilience, I really had to dig deep to stand back up again. And I think, so grief is one of those things. So I asked myself constantly, and one of the reasons I drive myself so hard is to protect my family, and to look after them, make sure I don't miss anything. And this one of the things I study so hard for. Just sharing a personal story there to sort of get people to understand, ‘If you lost everything, could you get back up? What would it take to break you?’ That nearly broke me, to be brutally honest. Craig: Well, I say to people who are in a bit of a—and thanks for sharing that, and sorry about your dad. God bless him.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Like, I say to people, ‘Okay, let's forget all the fucking KPIs and the deck and success mantras and all right, that's good.’ I can stand in front of people and motivate, and inspire, and make them laugh, and tell stories. And that's all good. But I go, ‘I've got three words for you one question three words. And the three words and the one question are, what really matters?’ Now, what really matters is not your fucking tally. It's not your bank balance. It's not your biceps. It's not your hair colour. It's not your fucking lippy, or it's in my case, it's not your abs or and none of those things of themselves are bad. But I've been really lucky that I've worked with people who are in a really bad way, people in prison who got themselves there, of course, but then probably more impact for me was people with really bad injuries.  Lisa: That’s amazing. Craig: I work with a bloke at the moment, a mate of mine who got blown up in an accident. I trained him three days a week, and he was literally given zero chance of living like, or having any function similar to your mum.  Lisa: Wow.  Craig: And he started. He was in, like your mum, he was in a coma. I started, they said he'd be a quadriplegic. If he—firstly, they said he wouldn't live, and he lived in our luck out, mesmerised how that happened.  Lisa: Yeah. Craig: Got through the operations, he got blown up by gas bottles, which were in the back of his unit while he was driving.  Lisa: Oh my god. Craig: That blew the car apart, that blew the roof off, they shattered windows for 800 meters in the houses. And he was given zero chance of living. And he was in a coma for a long time. And I'll go in and talk to him. And when he obviously was not awakened, all the stuff that you did, and I just say to him, that I don't know, like, that'd be gone. I don't know. Like, I don’t be guessing. I don't know, I might just get well enough to get out of here. And I'll start training him. I started training him in a wheelchair, with a broomstick. And so and the broomstick literally weighed, I don't know, maybe 100 grams. And so I would put the broomstick in his hands. And I would pull his hands away. So his arm’s away from his body.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And I'd say now try and pull that towards you.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And that's where we started.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: With a 100-gram broomstick.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Now it's three and a bit years later, I've trained him for three and a bit years.  Lisa: Wow. Craig: He is now walking with sticks. He drives himself to the gym. His brain function is fucking amazing.  Lisa: Oh my god. Craig: He’s still in constant pain. And he's got a lot of issues. But the bottom line is the dude who they went, you will never ever walk, you will never talk.  Lisa: You’ll never survive. Craig: They'll never be any—you'll never have any function, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So my two big perspective givers. That's one and the other one is—so...  Lisa: What a dude. Craig: What’s that? Lisa: What a legend. Craig: Yeah, he's amazing. He's amazing. So about 14 months ago, I was at the gym and I was training with my training partner, who's like me and he’s all buffed. He's in good shape. He’s fit. He doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, him and I are very similar. Anyway, one of the stupid things that he does is he takes I don't want to get in trouble. But he takes pre-workout, doesn't do drug. Don't do anything. I don't know. But anyway, he took a pre-workout. We're training and he's doing a set of chins. And he did 30 chins, Lisa, and he held his breath for the whole time because that's what he does. He thinks he gets more reps when he holds his breath. By the way, folks, not a great plan. Holds his breath for 30 reps. Lisa: He’s training his chemoreceptors. This for sure. Craig: Yeah, comes down, falls on his face on the floor. And I think he's having a seizure.  Lisa: Oh. Craig: And it had an instant cardiac arrest.  Lisa: Oh my god.  Craig: So, not a heart attack, a cardiac arrest. So, his heart stopped. So it took me kind of 20 seconds to realise it was that, and not... And there was—I won't describe what was going on with him.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: But as you can imagine, turning all kinds of colours... Lisa: Yep.  Craig: ...stuff coming out of his mouth. It was messy, right?  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: So, he was dead for 17 minutes.  Lisa: Oh, my God.  Craig: I worked on him for 10 until the ambos got there or the paramedics and God bless him. fricking amazing. But what's interesting is in that, firstly, that 17 minutes could have been 17 days. That's how clearly I remember those minutes.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And I'm on the floor, kneeling down next to one of my best friends in the world.  Lisa: Yep.  Craig: And I'm doing compressions and breathing, and I'm trying to save his life.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And it's funny how in that moment, everything comes, without even trying, to everything comes screamingly into perspective about, ‘What is bullshit?’ Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What matters?  Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What fucking doesn't matter?  Lisa: Yes.  Craig: What I waste energy and attention on. And literally those seven, eight minutes. I mean, I think I had pretty good awareness but they really changed me.  Lisa: Yeah. I hear you. Craig: Nothing matters except the people I love.  Lisa: Exactly. Craig: I'll figure the rest out.  Lisa: Yep. It's an amazing story. Did he survive? Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's five-to-two here in Melbourne.  Lisa: And he's waiting for you?  Craig: We're training at five. Lisa: Brilliant. Say hi for me. Craig: He’s still an idiot.  Lisa: He’s awesome, he's lucky he got you.  Craig: He’s still an idiot, but at least he prays when he chins. Lisa: Yeah, but like just the experience I went through with my dad. And I haven't done a whole podcast on it, and I tend to, because the two weeks fighting for his life in the hospital and fighting up against a system that wouldn't let me do intravenous vitamin C in that case that I was trying to because he had sepsis, and fighting with every ounce of my body and every ounce of my will, and in knowing that, and for those—it was 15 days that we were there, and they all blend into one because there was hardly any sleep happening in that time, a couple hours here and there and I'd fall over. But they changed me forever, in the fact that because I'm a fixer, I like to fix things and people. And when we're in the fight, I’m the best person you want in your corner of the ring. If we're in a fight for your life, or not as an, like, I'm a paramedic, but if you want someone to fight for you, then I’m the biggest person to have in your corner. But when we lost that battle, man, I was broken. And to actually not to come out the other side and to have that win and to get him back and to save his life, especially knowing I had something that could have saved his life had I been able to give it to him from day one. And you said that about your friend who got blown up and you said, ‘Just get out of here, mate, no, take it from there.’ And that's what I was saying to my dad. And as he had, ‘You just get yourself—you just hang in there, dad, because I will do what I can do here, and I've got all my mates and my doctors and my scientists all lined up ready to go. As soon as I get you the hell out of this place, I will do whatever it takes to get you back.’ But I could not do anything in a critical care situation because I had no control over him, his body, what went into him. And it was a—he was on a ventilator and so on. And so that was out of my control, you know? And that's fricking devastating.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: To know that and to feel that. Craig: How did that change you? Like, how did that change you in terms of... Lisa: It's still an evolving process I think, Craig, and there's a burning desire in me to get that changed in our ICU for starters, to get recognition for intravenous vitamin C, which I've done like a five-part series on my podcast for status, but I'm working on other ideas and projects for that because we're talking thousands and thousands of doctors and scientists who have the proof that this helps with things like sepsis, like ADS, like pneumonia, and it's just being ignored. And it's, we’re just 20 years behind this is one of the reasons I do what I do, is because I know that the information, like going through that journey with my mum too, the information that latest in clinical studies, all of what the scientists are doing now and what's actually happening in clinical practice are just worlds apart. And with like a 20-year delay in from there to there, and the scientists are saying this, and the doctors at the cutting edge are saying this. And so things have to change. So that's changed me in a perspective because I've never been a political person. I don't want to really get—I love being in the positive world of change, and it's, do things. But I do feel myself going into this activism space in a little way because I need to get some changes happening and some systematic things and you know you're up against the big fight.  Craig: Yeah.  Lisa: This is a big base to take on. But I'll do what I can in my corner of the world, at least but it has changed. And all that matters to me now is my family and my friends, and then from a legacy perspective, is impacting the world massively with what I do know and the connections that I do have and bringing information like we've been hearing today and these very personal real stories to people's ears because it changes the way people have their own conversations and hence start to think. Craig: Well, I think also, and thanks for sharing that. That's it. Somebody's got to step up, and you're stepping up and quite often the things that we need to do to live our values are not the things we want to do.  Lisa: No, scary.  Craig: Like, Fuck this. Yeah, I'd rather watch Netflix too. But that's not what I'm about. So it's good that you recognise that and you step into that, but I think what's encouraging about this conversation for everyone is that neither of us, well, I was gonna say, particularly special, you're quite special with what you do. But even with what you do, as an elite athlete, really, you've just put in an inordinate amount of work. Like, you've done all of the things required to become elite and to become an exception, but in many other ways, like with me, you've got issues and bullshit and flaws. And that's why I think—I'm not saying this is a great podcast by any means that or this is great conversation because that's very fucking self-indulgent. But what I mean is, I think people connect with podcasts, conversations that are just that.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Where it's not like two people who are... Lisa: Scripted.  Craig: ...just shooting off like experts. It's like, yeah, we're both figuring it out, too.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: And by the way, I'm a dickhead too. By the way, I don't know, I've got a lot of shit wrong. Don't worry about that. It's like, I'm just having my best guess. And I always say, even as a coach, I've never changed anyone. All I've done is influenced people, but I've never done the work for them. They've always done the work. So, everyone that I've coached that succeeded, it's because they did the work. Like I didn't run the race. I didn't lift the weight. I didn't play the sport. I didn't go to the Olympics. I didn't walk out onto the arena. I didn't do anything. I'm just the guy going, ‘Fuck, come on, you can do it.’ And like, here’s a plan and here’s—it's like, I'm just the theory guy. I don't put it into—the only life that I put it into practice in is my own. Lisa: Yeah. And that's powerful. And as a role model, too. I mean the shape that you're in and the stuff that you do, and you walk the talk, and those are the people that I want to listen to. And those are the people I want to learn from. Craig: Well, my dad, my dad used to say to me, a couple of it, my dad's like a cranky philosopher. But he used to say to me a couple of things. This is irrelevant. The first one but it's, ‘You can't go to university and get a personality', right. Which is funny because my dad's like, ‘And university, it's overrated'. I agree, dad.  Lisa: Yeah.  Craig: Second thing.  Lisa: For most things. Craig: Second thing. He used to say, ‘I wouldn't trust accountants or financial planners who weren't rich'. Lisa: Or trainers who are overweight. Craig: It's like, I remember him saying to me, like a friend of his disrespect Toyota, but not a friend, but a dude he knew. He was a financial planner or an accountant. And he used to drive this old beaten up Corolla, and my dad's like, ‘Why would I listen to him?’ Like, look what he drives, like, if he knew anything about making money or maximising whatever.  Lisa:

Kimo Seymour (Life Time) and LeLan Dains (UNBOUND GRAVEL) take a look back at 2020 and forward to the 2021 gravel event season including UNBOUND GRAVEL. We take a close look at the COVID protocols the team has put in place to ensure a safe event. UNBOUND GRAVEL Instagram  UNBOUND GRAVEL Covid Safety  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Episode Transcription: Craig: Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Kimo: Thanks for having us. LeLan: Yeah, thanks for having us, Craig. Craig: Yeah. So it'd be a good place start off since I've got two of you on the line today. Why don't we start off with Kimo, and then go on to LeLan? And just talk about your respective roles at Life Time. And maybe Kimo, prior to that, you could just tell the listener about Life Time in general. Kimo: Okay. So Life Time may be more nationally known as a leading health club company around the country. We operate 154 what I'll call destination health clubs around the country, and very nice, I'd consider pretty high end type health clubs, very family oriented company in 30 plus states. So Life Time's been around 20, I think we're coming up on 28, 29 years now. I'm fortunate enough to get to work on the events and partnership side of the business, so partnerships meaning most people think of it as sponsorships. We call them partnerships because it's an opportunity for us to share our partners with our audiences, and that happens to live both in events, which are outside of the walls of our clubs, as well as our members, which a couple million members, which attend our clubs. Craig: So how did Life Time start to see exterior events, events outside the club, as being an opportunity for a health club? Kimo: It's a great, great question. I think it was prior to my involvement. I've been with the company a little over nine years now. And my understanding was the idea was we kind of positioned ourselves as what we call a healthy way of life company. And I think the thought at the time, and continues to be our thought process that clubs and these destinations are an important component of a healthy way of life, but not necessarily the only component of a healthy way of life. To live healthy, you have to eat healthy. You have to have activity every single day. And clubs are an important component of that, but we also saw that to keep people in the ecosystem, it's important to engage them beyond the walls of the clubs, and events were an opportunity like that. Kimo: On top of it, events were a great brand. We found out that, gosh, you get a lot of really good exposure for your brand if you go create great experiences outside your clubs, a lot of media exposure. A lot of people start to learn about your ecosystem through these events, and so I think it was a combination of extending that lifestyle beyond the walls of the clubs, but also it was a marketing idea. It was a way to extend the brand, if you will. Craig: And were those first events things that Life Time conceived of themselves and created? Or did it start with sponsorships or partnerships? Kimo: To my understanding, I think there were a few sponsorships early on. But our CEO is, I'll say very protective of the brand. And the idea that we would put our brand on somebody else's experience and not control what that experience is like, he didn't like that idea. He liked the idea that we want to deliver a premium experience in everything that we do, therefore, we probably need to really do that effectively, we need to control that experience. So we get asked frequently if we would like to sponsor other events. We've chosen typically not to do that. We've found more success where we can kind of control and really engage with the consumer with our brand, that putting our name on somebody else's event hasn't been as effective for us. Craig: I remember the first time Life Time got on my radar was from the Leadville 100. And I think it was the year after I did it, the acquisition was announced, and it was really interesting because I know how much the founders of that event, how much passion and love they had for it, so it was very kind of curious when this outside entity came in and acquired that event. And then it was very heartening to see how much involvement the founding team has and still has in it, and how the character of the event didn't change. Kimo: Yeah. That's a great example of one where I think Life Time sponsored it for two or three years prior to the acquisition. I was actually, I came on shortly after that acquisition really, and that was my first job, was to make sure that we didn't "screw it up." And first and foremost to me, I thought it's really important to keep those founders because they're the ones that keep us engaged with the community. And they're the ones that know how to make sure that thing continues with the heart and soul that it had developed over the 25 years previous to our involvement, so yeah, I think that's an example of one where I like to think we've done an okay job of continuing that. And hearing you say that we've continued that experience, and like you say, the heart and soul of it is still there. And I think that's thanks to Ken and Merilee. And now Cole, who's Ken's son, has moved over to start helping us as Ken and Merilee reach a point of potentially retiring. We've got to have some of that continuity there in the Leadville community. Craig: Yeah. And obviously with mountain bike events and gravel events, any mountain event in these small communities, it's just so critical that you have the local team involved, because as you said, it's sort of the heart and soul of the event, and no one wants to lose that. Kimo: Right. Craig: LeLan, maybe that's a good time for you to introduce yourself as part of the team at the event formerly known as DK, now known as Unbound, which we'll get into later. Why don't you introduce yourself and what you do in the family? LeLan: Yeah. Well, I was one of those former owners of DK Promotions at the time. And we'd built up this DK event. And it was just a little over two years ago now that Life Time acquired us. Member of our team were getting on in the years, and we knew that there needed to be a strategy for a succession, if you will. And Kimo was one of the first people saying, "Hey, we want to make sure that you are part of this." In fact, I think it was we don't want to acquire this without you staying on board and helping us run it. So I now work for Life Time as the event director for the Unbound family of events, so that's our training camps in the spring, Unbound of course, first weekend after Memorial Day, our summertime lunar ride, and then that also led into the creation of Big Sugar down in Arkansas, which I help oversee. Craig: Yeah. That brings me back to a year ago in 2019. I had visited the Big Sugar preview ride in Bentonville, which was awesome in October. Life Time had announced its acquisition of Crusher in the Tushar. There was all these big things, and I think as one member of the community, I was so looking forward to 2020. I thought we had so many amazing things planned. I think you guys share that with me. At a strategic level, once COVID came into our lives in February, March, I think it really started kicking up. Obviously, Bobby Wintle's event, The Mid South, was probably the biggest event on the calendar that actually just managed to kick off. How did you guys see that and start thinking about it? It must've been incredibly challenging. LeLan: Yeah. I mean, there was so much unknown for everyone as we came into the start of 2020. Initially, to be honest, I personally didn't think it would affect our event, which was end of May, would've been end of May this year. And so you're there in January, February, and we're thinking, "Okay. If we all play by the rules and we kind of isolate ourselves for a few weeks, this ought to just go away," and boy, were we wrong. I was certainly wrong in that assumption. And so it didn't take long to go from, "Yeah, we're still having event this year," to, "We need to pick a postponement date." Then you get into the summer and you're like, "We're not having anything this year. And so it was, definitely didn't see that coming, for sure. Craig: Kimo, from a corporate level, obviously when this started coming down, it affected all of your events. What was that like on your end? And how did you kind of react corporately to the situation? Kimo: Well, yeah, at the corporate level obviously there was a lot of focus on the fact that we had to close down 154 clubs across the country. And boy, what a huge impact on our business. I'll say we're ... I preach this to our team a lot, I'm just incredibly thankful that in a time like this, we have a big company like Life Time behind us. There's a lot of people out there say, "Life Time, this big corporate giant coming in and gobbling up events and these things." And I think, "Well, these are the times where it's a pretty solid benefit to have that bigger company behind us." And I really feel for a lot of the smaller event producers that aren't getting any support from the government, kind of like restaurants. Right? I don't know how they're surviving. And I just feel terrible for them. You know? Kimo: And we're so fortunate that we were able to, I mean, obviously we canceled. I think we did two events in the beginning of the year. We've canceled the rest of our events for the year. Obviously, hard when you cancel 30 plus events, that's a big, big impact both to our business and to our parent company. So the irony was it didn't happen overnight. Right? This, as LeLan said, this thing evolved. Even in March, we thought, "We still got a chance. By beginning of June, we should be good. We'll come back out of this thing." Little did we know. We're talking about next June now. You know? And when we'll be able to get events back on next year, not this year. I think the hardest, the toughest decisions for me, nobody was going to fault us for canceling an event. People would fault us if we tried to put on an event. Right? Kimo: You'd have probably 50% of the people would be the ones bashing you for it, and 50% would be applauding you for it. We couldn't take that ... We couldn't risk exposing people like that, so the decision was not difficult to cancel. The hardest decision for me was what to do with the team, with the company. We furloughed close to 38,000 team members across the company. And unfortunately, some of those, we still haven't been able to bring back because of this. So we've been fairly fortunate in our business. We did lose a few people along the way, but we've been able to bring a number of people back, and those are probably the hardest decisions that we've had to make this year. Craig: Yeah. I can only imagine. I felt like at the time, there was a lot of sort of woe is me from individual riders who were seeing the one event they were aspiring to do for the year get canceled. But at the end of the day, like you said, whether you're a larger corporation or a small event producer, this hit hard. And being able to rebound back and be someone we can count on to create events in 2021 is super important. And I hope we didn't lose any events in all this, but I think inevitably we may have. Kimo: I think so. I think that's yet to be seen, Craig. I think unfortunately, there will be some of the smaller, maybe some of the bigger ones too, that just don't make it through because that's tough to go a year without your ... You got your operating expense that you kind of have to live with throughout the year. And then you've got all your revenue comes from a single day event, typically. Craig: Totally. Kimo: It's tough. Craig: And it's not like events are these huge revenue making machines, by any means, so the margins are quite small. And if you're required to give refunds to people, et cetera, there's a lot to it. On a brighter side, you gave a lot of riders the opportunity to donate their registration fees to charities, which I thought was a great way to kind of turn the tide on this. Do you want to talk about some of the success you had with that program? Kimo: Yeah. Really good question. We did. We selectively chose a number of events and gave people the option to donate to a variety of charities. In most situations, in most markets where we do events, we also through our Life Time Foundation, we support and are implementing school, kind of an improved school lunch program across the country, and doing what we call eliminating the harmful seven. And there's seven ingredients that we believe just children shouldn't be exposed to in school lunches. And so we've now extended that. We're impacting about two and a half million kids across the country through the Life Time Foundation. And those communities, our athletes are starting to recognize that it's pretty neat what we're able to do in those communities where we host events. And so Emporia, where LeLan lives, is a good example. We've entered into an agreement with the Emporia School District. And a number of our athletes for what was DK, now to be Unbound, chose to donate their entries. We gave them the ... We guaranteed people the opportunity to get back in this next year, but they donated this year's entry fee to support the lunch program in that school district. Kimo: And it evolved from not just eliminating the harmful seven in these school lunch programs, but it actually evolved into a COVID relief type lunch program in a lot of our school districts around the country that turned into not only a COVID lunch relief, but many, many districts, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, where there were really high unemployment rates and families that were really impacted. Leadville's a perfect example. I think in total we raised almost a quarter million dollars for that school district to support their COVID relief program throughout the summer and kept feeding not only kids, but their families, where they just didn't have access because they were unemployed. So really grateful for our athletes that jumped in to help out, and it was pretty impressive. Craig: Yeah. It's a great result, considering how much corporate level trauma, with all the employees you had to furlough, and all these sort of negative things going on, to at least be able to put something positive back into the world. Kimo: Yeah, I think so. We're really fortunate and appreciative of everybody that stepped up to help. Craig: So LeLan, I know last year, DK pivoted to a virtual event. And then there was also a virtual event for Big Sugar. I don't want to drill too much into the details of the virtual event. But is there anything that you guys learned running virtual events that might be useful going forward? LeLan: Yeah. I think the biggest lesson was learning that virtual events can be really good and really useful for a lot of people. Take our camp, for example. We had a virtual training camp, and that reached over 1000 people. And it really opened our eyes to the fact that our in person events can be rather limiting when you really think about it. DK, when it was owned by us had been a lottery long before Life Time acquired us because the demand was so high. We can only fit so many people in Emporia. Well, through the, I guess, forced use of virtual events this year, we realized that on top of taking people here in town, we potentially can create meaningful opportunities to engage with people that aren't able, either aren't able to travel to Emporia, or weren't selected to come to Emporia. And so it is certainly our hope that moving forward that we can use virtual activities to continue to engage people beyond those that can come here to Emporia. And so that was definitely an aspect that was exciting to me. LeLan: We had, like I say, I refer to our virtual training camp, what a great success that was. And in fact, we were able to add content that we wouldn't normally have in our in person training camp. We were able to engage more sponsors that don't always travel to town to be with the in person athletes. And we just had all kinds of information and great activations and great input from a lot of people to make that happen. And I think we only charged something like $10 to join that virtual training camp, and so the value return was immense. And I believe those profits were donated to either the Life Time Foundation, maybe a combination of organizations, so that was definitely in my opinion a huge success. Craig: Yeah. I think that was definitely one of those interesting silver linings to 2020, was just that we fleshed out a number of different virtual formats, and some of them are going to stick and some of them aren't. But at the end of the day, I just think it was a way to bind the community together in a time where we desperately wanted community, but we couldn't safely come together. LeLan: Our goal has certainly been to invite and welcome in as many people from the gravel community as we could. And as we've alluded, because of the use of our lottery, because the demand was so high, we couldn't capture all those people. So this will definitely give us an opportunity to engage. Will it be the same as riding hundreds of miles in the Flint Hills? No, not quite. But again, I think we can create a value in that experience that is appropriate and still makes the end user feel like they were a part of something pretty special. Craig: Yeah. I think one of the offshoots of that was a lot of great routes got created and shared across the community, which was really cool. I've benefited from going to different towns and riding routes that someone posted in their virtual DK race. The other big thing obviously in 2020 was DK rebranding to Unbound. For either of you, would you like to talk a little bit about that process and how you arrived at the name Unbound and what it means to you? Kimo: Want to take that one, LeLan? LeLan: Well, sure. Yeah. Well, it was a process indeed. As you can imagine, DK had positioned itself as the world's premier gravel event. And it was going on 15 years in 2020. This would've been the 15th running. And so imagine renaming your 15 year old child or something like that. It was a tall order. But we did, I really liked the process that our marketing team implemented. They pulled together a great committee of people, or group of people, if you will. And that included community members from right here in Emporia, key members from the Life Time team, couple professional athletes that were well involved with DK sponsors. So it was a very eclectic group of people from ... And not everyone was necessarily a hardcore cyclist. They just had an interest or a stake in the event in some way. And we invited them into the process, and it was just pages upon pages of words and phrases and names that we liked. And you start the process of scratching names out. LeLan: And Unbound was one that always just kind of was there. And we would always kind of pursue something else, and it wouldn't work for a number of reasons. And Unbound was there. And I really started to think about what that word signifies, what it means. It became very clear to me personally, a lot of people on the committee, that Unbound does represent the spirit of not only this event, but in gravel in general. The whole purpose of gravel was to get out there with nothing but a paper map and a cue sheet, and your own legs and whatever supplies you could carry, and to really be free out there and explore uninhibited. And that's what Unbound refers to really. And so we found it to be a name that was very applicable and captured the spirit in a lot of ways. Craig: Yeah. I think the end result was great, and I like the name, personally. LeLan: Well, good. Many people do. If you go onto social media, you might think otherwise, but the critics, as they tend to be, are really few in number. And there were some people obviously who didn't want the name to change at all. And we understand that, and so they likely weren't going to like anything that we produced, and that's okay. We understand there's a lot of emotion wrapped up into it. But when we were floating this around, it was clear to us that partners, industry partners in particular, really liked the name, and that really helped us solidify that selection. Craig: Nice. Well, let's get practical now. I really want to have a conversation for our listeners and the community at large about how events can be run safely in 2021. Unbound is scheduled for June 5th, 2021 at this point. And I know from talking to you, LeLan, you guys have fleshed out a lot of precautions. Can you talk through what Unbound is going to look like and how it may differ? And this again, for the listener, this is assuming we're still in the really tricky state of the pandemic, as we are now. LeLan: Yeah. And I warn everyone going into everything that I'd love to share here that this is a largely hypothetical. Here we sit in December, and as a production team, we desperately need to have ... We want some answers and we need to get started on our prep and planning, but those answers just don't exist. I go and I talk to my public health officials and city officials here, and they say, "LeLan, what do you want me to tell you? That's six months away. I can't tell you what next week is going to look like, let alone June." But the positive is that most everyone, everyone I've spoken with is optimistic that a bike ride can take place in June here in Emporia. And that's really reassuring to us. LeLan: And what that means is everything else might look pretty different. And there's obviously going to be a lot of safety stuff that I want to share. But at the end of the day, we think that a bike ride can take place. And that can happen because we can spread out the start line a little bit. And we're talking about hundreds of miles of Flint Hills, open air. There's really few better opportunities for us to have an even than out in the Flint Hills riding our bikes. And so I think that really lends a lot of positivity to something will take place. LeLan: But when you look at the other facets of the event, we really believe that we can make some alterations that still give the participants, our athletes, a great experience. So you take a look at our riders meeting. Okay, it has been a phenomenal gift to be able to gather in the Granada Theater and have those riders meetings. And the energy in that room is eclectic. Probably not going to happen in '21. We'll probably live stream that, and we'll still be able to disseminate the information. We just won't be able to gather in the theater. Packet pickup, we're really going to have to reduce the numbers and control the flow, so we'll probably do things like only the rider will be allowed to go in and sign in for themselves. As much as we love for the family to be a part of that experience, we just, there's not a ... We can't risk having the extra bodies in there. LeLan: Naturally, social distancing and mask usage, assuming that is still in use, will be followed wherever applicable. That's kind of a given. But just controlling the flow a little bit, reducing the numbers in any of our indoor facilities, those types of things. Our Finish Festival is going to probably be the biggest difficulty because if anyone's ever been to our finish line, it is thousands of people. I've heard as many as 10,000, some estimates have been. And they're milling around within a few block radius, and they've got a beer in their hand and a taco or pulled pork sandwich in the other. And you obviously can't have a mask when you're doing that. So that's an area where we're going to really have to scrutinize what we're able to do, what's prudent to do. But again, I go back to our worst case scenario. It may just be a finish line. There might not be quite the fanfare in years past. LeLan: But I don't think most of our athletes will be too upset about that. Is it great to have the crowd there? Absolutely. But if it means being able to have a ride, and that's a part we might have to give on a little, then it's something we're certainly willing to concede on here. But that's an area where we have a little bit of time to figure out what this thing might be looking like come springtime. It's an area that we'll have all the scenarios from A to Z try to figured out. And by the time we get to March, April, we'll know where in that line where we might have to be in terms of execution. Craig: Yeah. I think I heard Michael Marx from BWR say that putting on an event is twice the effort in the current situation that it has been previously. LeLan: Twice is being generous. I mean, we've got multiple plans and schemes and angles. And we want to be prepared for just about any scenario. And we feel pretty prepared as of today. Craig: Yeah. It's comforting that you guys have posted your COVID guidelines already on the website. I really like to see that. Kimo: Yeah. Craig, I think there's even maybe a bigger picture question that's still yet to be answered. It's something we don't know. And it probably extends beyond just our little industry. But in general, is there going to be ... We're starting to think about it. Will there be some period of time where it may just be required for certain activities, for certain businesses that you show up with a negative COVID test and/or proof of a vaccination? And I don't know that we're going to lead in that area nationwide, but I think there may be scenarios, and there's always a lot of talk about that, that some industries may just, they may go to that for some period of time. Kimo: If you're going to get on an airplane, countries and states are doing that now. To get into Hawaii, you have to show that you got a negative test from the last 72 hours. And I think we're going to see that evolve, and we'll probably see more of that over the next, I would imagine, 12 months. And so we're prepared. We're preparing for that scenario that we have to think about across all of our events. Potentially, it could be that you have to ... We end up having to be ... A municipality or local jurisdiction might require us to check that every single person that's coming has had a vaccine or has had a negative test in the last 48 hours or whatever it is. Craig: Yeah. It's sort of mind boggling to play out. I mean, do you have two finish lines for some people who have been vaccinated and some people who haven't? It's incredible. Kimo: It is. Craig: But I think any way you slice it, 2021's going to be a little bit topsy turvy. I think you do have the benefit, as you said, LeLan, of being a June event gives us a little bit of time to kind of see how things are playing out. There's a couple other big events on the gravel calendar that will have gone off, and hopefully gone off without a hitch so we can learn some lessons. LeLan: Even right here locally, not everyone ... If you've been to Emporia, you've probably learned this, but this is a big disc golf town as well. In fact, in April, Dynamic Discs, which is located here, hosts the world's largest disc golf tournament. So we'll also get to take some clues from them right here at home how that is operated and how it goes off. And so we do have that good fortune of being right in the middle of the calendar year. And so we'll get to learn from others on best practices as well. Craig: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's critical that throughout the gravel cycling community, if a rider's intending on attending an event, that they really take a high level of personal responsibility for their attendance. And whether that is in representing a negative test, or just showing up and following the rules, I think that's where we're going to fall down because I know all the event producers I've been speaking to, they know how important it is for them to set the right stage. But if the riders themselves don't take the responsibility, that's where the challenges are going to come. LeLan: Yeah. If you think about it, we utilize the help of a few hundred volunteers. It's an extraordinary number, but that's to manage thousands of people, not just riders, but their support crews and spectators. And so we can't have eyes everywhere all the time, so when we make a statement like, "We need you to wear a buff or face covering on the start line," we need your participation in that because it's very difficult to go row by row, person by person, and enforce something like that. It's simply our expectation that you're coming here with the goodwill and a desire to participate the way we need you to. Craig: Yeah. And I think obviously the other big thing is just responsibility during the travel to Emporia. Being a small community and drawing athletes from all over the world, that's huge. You could be coming from a territory that does not have precautions in place and bringing it to a community that does. LeLan: Yeah. I think most people recognize that even in larger communities, our larger cities, the healthcare system is overwhelmed. But then you look at a place like Emporia, which has 20 hospital beds, we just can't facilitate a big outbreak, so it could be very detrimental. Craig: With the precautions stated behind us, how excited are you to get the community back together this year? LeLan: Well, nothing would please me more. It's been an interesting year, where to Kimo's point, I've been grateful throughout the entire year to have employment, to continually be working towards the next objectives. But it's just felt weird. What have we been working towards? What have we accomplished this year? While I know we've accomplished things, it's been hard to recognize and see those things when you don't have those tangible events to execute. So nothing would please me more to get back to, I'll state it again, to just have a bike ride. I really think if we just view it as that, I think we can accomplish that much and get back to really what all this is really about, which is riding our bikes in beautiful locations and coming together as community in whatever capacity we're able. Craig: Yeah. And I know you're both cyclists yourselves, so you both personally must be missing the normalcy of group rides. Kimo: I'd say a little bit. Yeah. Definitely. I miss, whether I'm in our events, whether I'm riding, or just there to pick up trash, or whatever I do around the events. I miss it. I miss seeing that. There's nothing more. I mean, I'm telling you, if you stand at the finish line of Unbound, or Leadville, or any of these events, and if you don't shed a tear at some point, you must not have a heart. I mean, it is unbelievable the power that these events have to change people's lives and to have lasting impressions on the riders and their families, I mean kids seeing their parents do that. The example that people are setting for the next generation and all these things, it's really powerful and impactful. And it's all gone right now. That made me more anxious to see that than to necessarily cross the finish line myself, or get out on a group ride. Yeah, that's the part that's hard. It's a bummer that we've lost that for a year. Craig: Yeah. I mean, there's absolute magic in the last person to cross the finish line. You see the pros come across very quickly and are very able to have conversations and go on their business, sign some autographs. But that last person who turned themselves inside out, and maybe this is something they've never done before, I mean, it definitely gives me goosebumps even talking about seeing those athletes come across the line. LeLan: Oh, absolutely. As you well know, we are there, Unbound finish line is open until 3:00 AM Sunday morning. We're standing there until the very last come home. Craig: Amazing. Well, there's absolutely a reason why Unbound is on a lot of gravel athletes' bucket list of events to attend, for sure. So Kimo, for Life Time, you've got a suite of gravel events throughout the year. Have all the dates been set for the big events at this point? Kimo: They are all set, yeah. So all the big ones, we've kind of put them back on their traditional dates. At this point, we're contemplating whether or not something in the spring might have to get moved to the fall, things like that. As far as the gravel events right now though, it looks like we've got everything kind of where it traditionally has been in the past. Craig: Okay, because Crusher was later in the summer, I believe. And then Big Sugar obviously is at the end of the year. Right? Kimo: Right. Right. We've still got Crusher in the middle of July. And then, yes, Big Sugar for late October. Craig: Okay. And have you set the stage for when event registration for those later events will be available? Kimo: We have, actually. And I don't have the dates in front of me. LeLan, you probably know better than I do. LeLan: You'll have to fact check me on Crusher. It's either mid January or early February. Big Sugar, we have not made that announcement, but look for a springtime opening for that registration. Craig: Okay. For both of those events, I imagine there's a lot of deferred athletes that are potentially given the first slots. LeLan: You are correct, yeah. But I'm glad you bring that up because even with Unbound, there were many people who donated their entries, or asked for a refund. A lot have deferred. But I do want to mention to the listeners that there will be a lottery registration for Unbound. There will be new spots available for athletes. And that opens up January 15th. So definitely be, if you're wanting in this year, there's still opportunity. Craig: Awesome. That's super exciting to hear. I just sort of assumed that it was already locked up. LeLan: Yeah. And that's why I'm glad you brought it up because I imagine most people are feeling that way. And I don't think we've made big to do about that. This is one of the first times we've been able to get on air with anyone and talk about our registration will be opening. So definitely put your names in the hat. Craig: And then for registered athletes, is there a deferment or refund policy that you guys have already crystallized? LeLan: Yeah. Another great question, I'm glad we're hitting on that because in years past, we've taken a pretty hard no refunds. And even before Life Time had acquired us, we had moved to a no transfer policy, which we used to allow transfers. But this has definitely made us realize that this was something that's obviously out of everyone's control, but we did want to recreate a deferral and a refund policy that would be more generous and maybe a little more fair to everyone. So folks, and I'll kind of rattle some of this off, but you can visit unboundgravel.com, look at our COVID-19 guidelines. And you'll see our little Q and A, which includes the deferral refund policy. But from 90 days out or more, there's a 70% refund available to the riders if we need to cancel the event because of COVID. Then it goes down to 50%. And then within the last couple months, a 40% refund. LeLan: Now I will say this, obviously it'd be our goal to try to postpone. Because we do take place in June, there is a chance like we had tried in 2020 to maybe try further down the road in the year. But if it all comes down to cancellation, then we do have a policy in place for a refund. It's a little more generous than in years past, and an outright deferral at no cost as well if a person wants to try again the next year. Now that's there, but we're not going to need it. Right? Knocking on wood, and it's not going to be an issue. We're going to be able to ride, let's hope. Craig: Yeah. Let's just keep all our thoughts intending that way. I'm definitely struggling a little bit as I'm sitting in Los Angeles County and they've just entered another strict lockdown period. As I'm looking online to register for events, it's hard to get my head around it. LeLan: That's the struggle we find ourselves in now is it's hard to take the blinders and put them on. We need the blinders on right now. We don't want to see what's happening today. And we need to think about what we hope things are looking like next year. Craig: Yeah. That's absolutely right. I mean, I think we're all optimistic about where things are going. It may not go as fast as we'd like to go, but I think things are finally starting to head in the right direction in terms of potential vaccine, et cetera. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate you talking about what's been going on at Life Time and about Unbound and the other events you've got on the calendar for this coming year. I'm excited, and again, optimistic that I may be able to see you both in person again. LeLan: Definitely. Kimo: Oh, we will. We'll see you, Craig. We'll be there. Craig: Great. Thanks, guys. Kimo: Thanks for having us. Craig: Take care. Happy holidays.    

Welcome to the recruitment hackers podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello everybody. And welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm Max and I invited today to our podcast, Mr. Craig Sweeney, from WilsonHCG. Welcome Craig. Craig: Hi Max. I'm glad to join you today. Max: Thank you. Thank you for joining and putting yourself in front of the computer on such a beautiful sunny day. I can see the weather is unusually balmy in Manchester.Craig:  It really is. Yes, this is the one day of the year the sun comes out and it's not cloudy and raining, which anybody who's been to Manchester before would know is the usual lab, usual blend of weather we have here. Max: Amazing, amazing. Here in  Hong Kong, we are locked at home, unable to go to work because of a tiger flu. So,  it'll come your way. It should get there in about three months time.Craig:  Stay safe.Max:  So Craig tell us what you do, and what your company does! Craig: Okay. So, we'll say HCG, for those of you who don't know, is an organization. We are a talent consultant firm largely built around RPO solutions, but then more broadly around anything really that links to talent acquisition, from a consulting perspective, from continuing workforce solutions, as well as our kind of core RPO solutions.My role is within the business areas, as part of our executive team, I lead everything around new plan engagements. I've got a global team that stretches from Japan, Singapore, through Europe and then into North America. And within my remit is our new business growth team. We've got our solutions team and then our implementation function. So essentially my group owns everything before a client actually goes live and becomes a client of ours. Max:  Okay. New solutions team, you call it. Right?Craig: Yeah. So we've got a technical solutions team that helped to architect the solutions that we're actually putting in place for clients, both commercially, but also in terms of their structure. When they're complex global solutions, it takes some detailed kind of building out to have the right capability. And particularly when that's encompassing things that aren't just, you know, one type of hiring. It may be that we're hiring for specialist roles, high volume roles, graduate and internships or within the same solutions. Building that out and making sure we've got the right team to deliver for our clients when it's on a kind of medium or large scale, is often quite complex.Max:  I guess, the bigger, the volume, the more technology seeps in. And then the lower the volume, the more an organization like yours will be competing with maybe smaller staffing firms.  Is that a fair statement? Craig: I would say increasing technology is important in most scales of solutions that we build out. Because, I think even for those organizations that are maybe just recruiting in the, you know, in the hundreds, rather than the thousands. Having the right technology in place to help fulfill their critical business impact in roles, through whether or not last through engagement attraction, or building our future talent pipelines is all really important.Creating a great candidate experience and making sure we're out competing some of the other businesses that  are trying to hire the same talent is super important. Max: Well, you may have seen in the news that there's been a little bit of M&A this year in the technology space. Just last week, there was a company called Elio that was acquired by HireVue. There was a Sunroom in the UK that was aquired as well over the summer. It seems to me that video.  I don't know if it's hot or not, because sometimes, I mean, it's definitely being talked about a lot in the age of remote hiring and work from home hiring, as the killer app, you know, 15 or 20 years after its conception. This is a first situation. But at the same time it looks like those companies never really got to the next stage. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking about it because you're talking about, you know, hundred of hires and I guess with these kind of environments, video interviewing, even then, you know, for an executive hire, you don't know if you're going to use video interviewing for an executive level hire, basically, right? It's going to be a little bit awkward to do an asynchronous video interview. Craig: Yeah, I think  it's interesting, you know, video interviewing and as you say, it's been around for many years. I think right now, everybody  in this short space of time with everything that everybody's gone through over the last six months, eight and months, yeah. Video technology has just become part of everybody's life. You know, if I'd ever talked to my parents about doing a video call, you know, a year ago, they would have gone, wow, that's crazy. Or, you know, people actually thinking about doing interviews over video, they would have said that's not possible but actually now.I think it's just crept into society and that's when you really start seeing, I think, change happened very quickly when it just becomes accepted that this is a way that people operate. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know, video is kind of the core of some of those acquisitions right now.Max: But now these companies have to add other things. Right? Because video is so omnipresent and everywhere that it's just not enough to do just video. Right? Craig: I agree. Max: That's the realization. And so, are the big guys, like the big enterprise software companies like SAP and Oracle, do they have a live video native solution? Do you know? Craig: I don't believe so, but whether or not there's products that are in development, possibly, Max: They can always do bargains anyway.Craig: Yeah, exactly.Max: And so, this is a very general question, for an RPO recruitment process outsourcing specialist. You're  asked to deliver a number of hires. Right? A number of hires and then retention after that. Probably those are your two key driving metrics. With that,  do you also get certain targets around? Like we want you to replace. You know, we want you to change this process and we want you to change this piece of technology? Or it's more of a, you know, deliver the heirs at whatever cost you want, and using whatever technology you want we just want the results?Craig: Yeah. I've been in and around RPO since, before it was called RPO. It was, you know, before it even took on that title. And I think if you look at the history of how RPO has evolved and developed. If we were talking 15 years ago, RPO was very much a transactional solution for most organizations where it was around. How do we deliver on a certain volume of hiring and just do that quicker and more effectively and often at lower costs than we're doing it ourselves today? I think over the course of the last five years in particular, maybe slightly longer, the strategic capability of RPO's has just exponentially grown.So I think,  although those measures that you mentioned before are still a component part of what we have when we're delivering for our clients. So it is still around, you have avoidment of firing  and some of those key metrics that we have to operate to and that, but actually it's a much more holistic solution now where we are looking at technology that we're bringing to the table either to provide a better candidate experience, provide better capabilities to be able to pipeline or engage with talent, create the best candidate experience, provide better data, to be able to kind of tell the story around what's happening with hiring, but also process redesign. And the measures that we are now looking at, in terms of the measures that we're measured against. Aren't just on volume they're on things like, DEI. So how we can help drive better, diversity in organizations as well as just actually deliver the candidates, and make the hires. So it's a much more,  sophisticated business impact solution rather than a transactional solution RPO started out many years ago. Max: It sounds like it's getting more complexity. Maybe one area where things are getting a little more simplicity would be that in 2020, there is consolidation, at least on the tech stack and some companies merging into others. And perhaps that'd be a little bit of a relief for professionals in your field, that instead of having a hundred solutions to choose from, now we have 80. Is that a pain in your back? To walk into customers and every time they've got, you know, I don't know how many TA tech solutions they usually come with. What's the typical number that you walk into?Craig: Yeah, well, in terms of, you know, if we've got just the baseline applicant tracking system then yeah, we work with  most of those and have done it at some point. But again, our role is to kind of look at those, make sure they're operating effectively. Clients never liked their applicant tracking systems.Max: Is universal!Craig: Yeah it's universal, but often it's because  they've been installed or implemented. And they no longer kind of build, they no longer fit around the processes that have changed, but the technology has not changed to keep up with it. So they're trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Part of our role is to help actually either reconfigure the technology or redesign the processes or both.But your point on what technology we bring, that's unique to each solution that we're building out. And, you know, I think what we avoid doing is just implementing technology for the sake of technology. There's got to be an output there. There's got to be a reason why technology is put in place. It has got to have a benefit and that's going to be different depending on the type of hiring, the locations, the language and various other things that might impact the type of technology that we're building out. But yeah, fortunately, we've got an internal innovation team that does a lot of the assessments around technology and then advice and guidance around what technologies would fit into a particular tech stack, if there's an existing tech stack, because again, not all technologies fit into every tech stack and integrate well. So I think the challenge is less of a challenge for us. It's actually a benefit for us to have that team to advise our clients. And the reason we have that team is that internal TA factions often don't have the luxury of being able to have people that are technology specialists, and with so many technologies on the market right now doing various different parts of the end to end TA process, choosing the right ones, becomes increasingly difficult. Because they're actually, there are a lot of good technologies out there and the list is growing almost week over week.Max: Yeah, well, maybe not this week, you know, but most weeks for sure. And your role would entail a lot of traveling, you know, pre 2020, I presume.Craig: Absolutely. Yeah. So I probably spent maybe two thirds of my time traveling, or at least 50% of my time traveling over the last four or five years, both to around Europe and North America and Asia as well. And yeah, this year has been very different. No planes, no trains. it's all been, yeah. Working from home and I've enjoyed it. Enjoyed the time because it's just given you time to kind of reflect and think  in a way that when you're traveling so much, it becomes difficult to have that time to do that reflection. And I look forward to the day when I can go and do that again, but I don't wish for that to come too soon. Max: I had the opposite reaction where initially I thought, I don't have any more time to think because I used to think while I'm traveling, when I'm on the plane in the air. But I do have a tremendous amount of time though, that was created by eliminating travel. And in your line of work, I imagine that's been replaced by double the amount of zoom meetings and teams and all that. Craig: Yeah. It has  and that was kind of part and parcel of what I would do in my role every day. Anyway, because we're a global team, we're not kind of spending our days in the same office. We're often in parts of the world, in different time zones. And so Zoom was pretty familiar prior to this year, but certainly became more so over the last few months. Max: I'd like to, to dig a little bit, deeper into the art of sourcing, which is perhaps the area where your clients would, you know, the pain points where your clients would first come to you and say, we're not getting enough quality candidates. Can you bring in the experts? Because our internal talent acquisition team is just not finding the talent. Is that part of the business? I have two questions here. One part is if that part of the business changed in 2020? and how? And then, maybe a word about, you know, how much sourcing can be automated, or rather, what are the limits of automation when it comes to sourcing? What still needs to be done manually? So I blurted out my two questions in a row and you can answer them in whichever order you'd like.Craig: Yeah. So, in terms of where technology and sourcing are kind of crossing and the benefits is I think, you know, technology can be used really effectively to outreach and do the initial engagement, with candidates. And take that through a certain element of the process of actually initial engagement. But I think it's more effective in certain roles than others. I think it's more effective at doing that with high volume rather than more niche skills. Because I think, in the market today, even though we're seeing high levels of unemployment in lots of different places,  I think there's still a higher demand for highly skilled talent.Max: Yeah. Craig: And often it's a human interaction and human contact. I think that helps to make that engagement more effective in the first instance. But certainly engaging candidates through the recruitment life cycle, technology can have a great impact there because I think being able to access and get responses 24/7 at a time that's convenient for the candidate is really helpful. Through whatever platform that might be. But certainly on higher volume hiring where it's maybe, you know, lower skilled, often, like I said, larger scale, candidate pools, there's definitely a greater element of technology being able to manage candidates through that sourcing cycle.But again, I think, where we look at that is not necessarily taking humans out of the process. Is maybe freeing up people's time through technology to have a greater impact, at a further point in the hiring process because quality engagement is still really important. Max: And, the first part of my question about whether the sourcing activities have changed in 2020, you said, that the jobs that are hard to find are still hard to find. So we'll be thinking typically engineers and data scientists and the likes, and then industry specialists. And so that, you know, the nature of your business has not really changed much in that sense from 2020, from the source design. Craig: I think one of the things we've definitely seen in the last quarter is, I think what's happened with COVID and the economic kind of downturn that we saw occured from March, April onwards, is TA functions were heavily reduced. Often down to bare bones or nothing at all. So we found that as the kind of return to work and that bounce in the economy started to happen, those organizations that don't have a capability at all, are looking to kind of give them a sourcing arm that can be very flexible and built around their needs so it can ramp up quickly. It can scale, but it can also scale back. And I think right now that's important for so many businesses, cause they still have uncertainty in the future. Max: And i've read that. You were there maybe, that 2009 - 2010 were good years  for the RPO industry. Craig: They were. Yeah, I think, you know coming out of the economic, the financial crash in 2008, a very similar scenario where, you know, organizations were very uncertain about what was to come. And particularly in places like Europe, where if you're employing people on a permanent basis, it's not easy always to kind of make those adjustments to your business and reduce the workforce if you need to. Because the labor laws don't allow that, but having a partner that can scale up and build around those needs and scale further if needed. But scale back if the hiring ramp slows down.Max: So those cuts have been made and they would typically have been made in the areas where automation was most feasible and according to your reasoning. And I agree with it, most that automation would be more on the high volume side of the business, and there would be more opportunities for RPO vendors and perhaps vendors like us to do more in the high volume space, the high volume of space should be a big opportunity in 2021. Craig: My prediction is that all hiring is going to be at an altitude in 2021. I don't think it will be limited to high volume. I think it will be hiring, right across the board. And certainly, you know, one of the areas we're seeing a huge amount of activity right now is around sales hiring, that's from enterprise sales right away through sales consultants across clients.  And that's because people are trying to call back their losses that they've seen in the early parts of the year. And I think that will kind of drive through, into next year's plans as well. Max: For me some of these recruiters will be able to reconvert themselves into sales people. Craig: Yeah. Quite possibly. Max: Not that hard of a transition if you're good at it. Right? And, okay. Well we've talked about, you know the kind of customers that come to you and which kind of scenario. Would you have any thoughts to spare on the kind of customers that you do not want to work with? And maybe, we don't have to share names, but customers that have broken your heart or broken your spine, and what went wrong there? Craig: Yeah I think we have some really great customers that we've talked with and I used that word really purposefully. They are great customers that partnered with us. And I think when we've historically maybe had relationships that haven't worked out as well as we would've liked. It's where there's an expectation that we are there as a delivery arm to the business, rather than the operator. Max: You're going to blame it on the sales guys! Of course.  Oh, it's their fault. Craig: No, not the sales guys I think it's just about having the right expectations set, you know, for hiring to be successful whether or not it's pure intel or whether or not you're working with a partner like us, there's got to be kind of a skin in the game and there's gotta be, an upside for everybody to want to work together. And that is the way that things kind of land really well. It is when we're operating in that kind of  true partnership, where we have the same goals and outcomes that our clients have.Max: Well, I'm trying to read between the lines here. So the nightmare scenario is you're being kind of pegged against an internal team.Craig: No, not pegged against an internal team. I think it's where we're being asked to deliver on something where we maybe haven't had the ability to shape or build or give input into, to how something should be delivered.  Or when we have stakeholders that don't have an upside  from our success. And the stakeholders need to benefit from us doing well for it to work. With the vast majority of the clients and the partnerships we have in place. That's absolutely the case because we build all our solutions. Max: I have tried to sell automation, sometimes to the wrong HR professionals. So I think I can relate with that kind of scenario. And also the scenario where people don't adapt their process, where we would say, no we are an engagement tool at the front of the funnel. Do not ask the candidates 10 video interview questions on messaging, like it's going to break. And no!  That's what we want. That's what we're going to get. Okay. You know, we wasted so much resources trying to please people sometimes, it's rare, but it does happen. Craig: Yeah. I think like yourselves, you know, where there to be advisors that's our role is to help resolve people's challenges and their problems with better solutions. And I think there's, again, where we do that and it's successful is where the client actually wants to listen and adapt to our guidance and important advice. Max: And, what's the customer you've been working with for the longest time? Or you don't want to say names? Craig:  Oh, wow. Yeah. We've got clients today that were the first clients that we ever started working with. So, you know they've been relationships for, you know, decades.Max: That's nice. Well, I hope they had a decent 2020, and that you're right about what's coming this year, and all of that business coming in. Thank you very much, Craig for participating and sharing your insights on how the RPO industry has shifted or it seems like it has not shifted that much. A little bit less traveling for you, but overall, it's been a good year and things are heating up  at the European market in Q3.Craig: Great. Thank you, Max. Have a good rest of your day!Max: Thank you, Goodbye Craig!That was Craig Sweeney from WilsonHCG, giving us hope for tomorrow and the big rebound of the recruitment at RPO industry. Hope you enjoyed it. Subscribe if you did. And if there's somebody that you'd like me to interview as part of the podcast, you can send me their names too directly to hello@talkpush.com and I'll contact them directly and invite them to tell us their secrets. Thank you for listening and see you soon.

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We talked about Management using technology to surveil their employees. How meetings over collaboration software may be interfering with employee work, the FBI warns about hacks on critical infrastructure. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Managers are now turning to surveillance software. These always-on webcams, in some cases, webcams and screen captures, capture that kind of capture things often on it. I think this is going to be a little bit of an issue for people. Hi, everybody. Greg Peterson here, of course, that's me with Jack Heath this morning. We're talking about the unintended consequences of monitoring employees while they're working from home. Jack Welcome back. Craig Peterson. Tech Talk guy and Craig. Justin asked a question in the last break. Are you ready for this? Craig? All right. He asked me if you could get sick if you catch a virus through a zoom chat. I said no, Justin stopping once you stop. Craig It's not like the telephone you useable to get them over the phone. But this is a computer, so you're not going to get that kind of a virus over zoom. Yeah, Justin Ask me that with all these zoom chats and Microsoft Teams to get the virus. Jack No Justin. Craig Or you can get some types of computer viruses because you can share files. And we still have the same problem there. Jack Yeah. Well, you know, and I know that speaking of the virus, ironically, you can get sick through the computer because the viruses, people are taking advantage of this virus. Craig Yeah, they are. There are a lot of bad people out there. We've seen increases of 30% to 300% on various types of hack attempts against us. We have some warnings coming out from the federal government through the FBI about attacks on multiple types of critical infrastructure. We're seeing them worldwide. And but you know, there's an exciting trend that's happening Jack too, with managers. So many people are starting to work from home, and some have been very effective, and I've heard business people saying yes, I'm just going to keep this up, at least for these particular classifications of people. But managers are now turning to surveillance software, these always-on webcams, or in some cases, webcams and screen captures, capture that kind of capture things often on it, I think this is going to be a little bit of an issue for people. And we have to remember that, you know, businesses shouldn't be providing the hardware for people to work from home, but on the other side of companies are providing the hardware. They may also be doing some of this monitoring, including continual always-on surveillance. Yeah. Jack Yeah. I've heard some instances about the software of just you know, managers. You know, if you turn your camera off for two minutes, send you an email and what's going on why is your camera not on or send you a text like all cameras on it's, it's a, I think people want to be a little aware that we're different. Home can be a challenge. And B, everybody's a bit stressed out right now. So no one's going to be working, you know, full to full capacity. 10 hours a day. Craig Yeah, exactly. It reminded me of when I was teaching MIS 422 out at Pepperdine. We were talking about the effect that we saw in business when monitoring employees. The other side of this is the psychological side, where your employees now know you are watching them, whether it's always on or maybe it's just a sample here and there. There's a psychological effect. It's very, very negative against people. And although business owners are now thinking that employees aren't going to leave right away, because of most employees, of course, you know, Maslow's hierarchy. Most employees are concerned they don't want to lose the job, lose the income, so they're not going to move, that this type of monitoring is going to drive some employees away. I've said that I think companies are going to study long after this pandemic is said and done. How will they communicate? What portion of the workforce that will be left working from home even after the concerns of the spread, because they found new efficiencies? They will need to consider costs for people in major urban markets, commutes, factor the commercial real estate, rent cost, and leasing costs. There's been a debate about people who are the conference calls and the zoom chats, too many, you know. Are you allowing your employees to sell or do their job if wanting check-ins from eight to seven at night, every hour? Do you have a call? Are you doing your work if you're on the con call? I think they will do studies on the effectiveness of this period. What was too much? What was too little? What worked? What did not work? Jack We'll see how that all shakes out. Craig Peterson, thank you. Craig makes a great Monday, Craig Peterson dot com. Thank you, Craig. Thanks, some tech talks. No, Justin, you cannot get the virus in the zoom chat. Craig Alright, everybody, I hope you are doing better states are opening up more and more stuff. The aftermath will reveal much. I'm going to keep you up with it on top of all of it. We've got some things planned here to help businesses that are turning everything back on because you might also find that your tech people are gone. Now, this has hurt a lot of the smaller tech businesses. Anyhow, we want to keep you up to date, and we need to keep you in the loop, and the only way you're going to be in that loop is if you go to Craig Peterson comm slash subscribe, make sure you do it. And I will be letting you know what's going on because we've got a lot of stuff coming up real soon. Take care, everybody. Craig peterson.com slash subscribe. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Steve Fornier this morning who was sitting in for Jim Polito. We discussed what the James Dyson Foundation is providing to families to interest their kids in Engineering and what the Business world will look like post-COVID. So, here we go with Steve Fornier For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig So what we did is we took the opportunity with her to say, Okay, well, let's do it. Let's make here's a recipe with feeds four people. So now we need to feed six people. So at the age of about five or six, she was doing fractions in her head. Hey, we went through a few more tips this morning. And Mr. Jim Polito is out. So Steve Fornier is sitting in for him. And I managed to work murder Hornets into this morning's interview, so here we go. Steve Welcome back to the Jim Polito show. It is Steve Fornier here in Springfield in for Jim this morning. And again, I a guy that I think is just such a valuable resource at a time like this. Craig Peterson joins us, our tech talk guru Craig. Good morning. How are you doing, sir? Craig Good morning, doing well. Steve First of all, Craig, I want to say thank you for your contributions, and I know that you also gave our radio stations a bunch of tech talk tips that we can use that we can run here on the stations. And I think that's so valuable. So I want to say thank you for providing us with that stuff. Craig Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, it took a long time. Those little features are about a minute and a half to two minutes long talking about the tech stuff. Steve How do you boil it down to just something that's just a minute or two long? That's my entire job, Craig is spitting 40 seconds worth of stuff into a 30-second spot. So I hear you that. Craig Today is National Teacher Appreciation Day, which I think is so important. And you have some cool resources for parents to help the kids out. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Craig Yeah, this one is just totally cool. I don't know if you know, but my wife and I have eight kids, and we homeschooled them. Steve Your baseball team. Craig Yeah, yeah, right. Oh, you know from Canada, so it's closer to a hockey team. But anyway, the whole time up to college in fact, now they've gone on to get advanced degrees. But what you have to do with your kids is look at their interests. We had a young daughter, I think she was about five or six years old, and she loved to cook she loves to bake. And so what we did is we took the opportunity with her to say, Okay, well, let's do it. Let's make here's a recipe with seeds for people. So now we need to feed six people. So at the age of about five or six, she was doing fractions in her head. She was multiplying fractions dividing fractions because she loved to cook—somebody like you, Steve, who loves sports. If you have a little boy or girl that's interested in baseball, teach them how to figure out the statistics. And which stats are better? Is it better to bat a 300 or 400? And what does that mean? You take those opportunities, and that's what Dyson has come up with James Dyson's foundation. He is the guy that makes those vacuum cleaners that are kind of cool some high tech fans and other things. His foundation has put together this list of about two dozen different challenges for kids. And the idea behind it is to get them interested and expose them to engineering concepts. You know, they have some simple things like can you skewer a balloon that's inflated without poping it? How about taking a nail electroplating it? How can you cover it in copper? Well, how would you do that? And then a classic I remember when I was a little kid is plugging a clock into a potato making a potato battery. So all of these things are designed as challenges specifically for kids. They're ideal in the home or the classroom. And the whole idea is to get kids excited about engineering. Steve Yeah, into just give them something to do right to let them put down the fortnight controller and, and be productive. You know, while we're all sitting around. Craig Yeah, I think that might be a difficult one for some people because so many of these video games are very, very addicting, and the whole science behind them is fascinating. But this is great. So I'm going to we'll get them outside. They'll get them in the kitchen. They'll get them doing some things. So just search online right now you'll be able to find it. It's the James Dyson Foundation spelled D Y S O N. Steve By the way, I learned Craig thanks to Final Jeopardy earlier this week. Maybe that Dyson also invented the wheelbarrow. So how about that? What is who is Dyson? Cool there? We're talking with Greg Peterson, and I do have sort of an off the radar question. I wanted to fire at you towards the end. So stay on alert for that, Greg, but can you tell us a little bit about telecommuting. Post COVID-19, it's going to be a little different. How can you tell us out? Craig Yeah, we're seeing some fascinating numbers starting to come out right now most businesses have got some sort of telecommuting in place now. Many of them have been looking at how do I secure it now? How do I make it more efficient, make it faster for people? What we're starting to see from these C-levels and the executive offices, who are trying to figure out what's it going to look like, is that they are serious about moving out of the big cities. So I think you're going to see a lot of the businesses moving from a Boston, for instance. Closer to Western or Springfield, smaller cities, and even smaller towns, some of these corporate buildings in Chicago are already emptying. We've seen the same thing in Detroit for many years. So post COVID-19, we're going to see that many of their employees have ten times more than pre-COVID-19. Ten times more employees about 40% or maybe more will be working from home on a long term basis. Steve Whether or not they want to. I mean, like yes, some people don't want to be stuck in the house all day with their family and some businesses. Craig Some businesses still have their people getting together? What I'm thinking is that we are going to see more people working from home, but it's not going to be five days a week. They may be working from home four days a week or three days a week and going into the office once or twice, but that's going to happen. It is going to have a devastating impact on real estate, the business real estate out there, frankly. But we're going to see just a dramatic a giant increase from January and people working from home on Craigslist, anything. Steve Like I don't know how to say this is the impact that COVID-19 is having in the big cities? Is that a part of it too, because it just seems like, you know, the cities that are being hit the hardest. New York City, Boston, you know, major metropolitan cities, is that a part of it too, just keeping your employees safe, and, you know, understanding the threat that there isn't a big city. Craig So that's a massive part of it. Most of the major corporations are not planning any sort of travel even until the probably next year 2021. And when you're looking at the big cities, it is a considerable risk. You know, as a business, we can't afford to lose some of our best talents, and when Many companies have been placed strategies that say hey listen, you guys cannot be on the same airplane traveling somewhere you cannot be in this location together. And because of what we've seen with COVID-19, there are a lot of businesses that are being Steve all just a whole lot more cautious about having people in one place. I talk to business people who are saying that for them in reality. It has been a big wake up call because having everyone in the office but spreading these germs, even for the flu for instance, but when you've got something like this virus we have today where we don't know what's going to happen, having them all in one office and sharing it the big problem. I have a client who is an HVAC contractor, and they are starting to install air handling units that have ultraviolet light inside of them. They have heavy HEPA filters that put into them all in an effort for businesses to be able to keep the offices safe so that they are not spreading disease in the office. It's going to be a whole new world. Steve Yeah, sure is. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru and Craig, I do have a question sort of out of the left-field that I think you can help with solve security questions. It is today's world from the eyes of a hacker, these security questions, just don't cut it for me, like, what is your dad's but what is your mom's maiden name? Like? I feel like that's very easy to find on the internet. If you're a hacker, what you know what street did you grow up on? Well, we can figure that out pretty easily on the Yellow Pages calm. Um, I'm to the point now where it's I'm answering questions like, you know, what's your dog's name and I'm answering like purple because I Hope they will get it. Is that the best approach to just sort of lie on all these questions? Craig Yeah, it is, you know, in this day and age of murder Hornets, we have to be extra cautious. But yeah, what I've done for the last 30-40 years. I got my first job ever. I wrote some computer software used for magazine distribution stuff. I came to realize that hey, they are tracking us. So always since then, I have been making up the answers to all of those questions, just wholly random words. And I have been using one password, which is a password manager, to a great one. It's the one I recommend to everybody. There are other password managers out there, but it'll generate passwords for you. It'll store notes securely, etc. So you're doing the right thing, Steve, every website that I go to, that's asking those security Questions. I have it either one password randomly pick words for me, or I just make up something that's completely nonsensical. And sometimes, when you get on with the tech support or PII or help desk people, and they ask one of those questions, they chuckle. They ask, what's that? What's that all about? Now, there is a line. You cannot erase the lease not supposed to lie on certain types of applications. So if it's financial information, if it's government-related stuff, you can undoubtedly make top answers to those recovery questions. But you can't just totally lie about who you are. But I have dozens and dozens of identities, Steve that I use on just random websites. They don't need to know who I am. So I only use some made-up identity, and sometimes I'm a guy, sometimes I'm female, you know, different ages, everything else because they don't need to know that. I don't want the hacker To be able to examine my life on LinkedIn or my website or Facebook and come up with the answers. Steve Yeah, no, that that was my thought is how simple it is. Especially if you have if you're not like a private thing, if you don't have a personal Twitter or a private Facebook, you know, you're opening yourself up to getting that information, the hackers getting that information, and then then you know, they're in. So very interesting. I appreciate that. I have been fighting that battle with the security question thing now. Craig Well, that's not right. Now that's a $15 billion industry, sending out those phishing emails and trying to figure out what someone's information is and using that to do spearfishing. It's all part of business email compromise, which the FBI says I'm more than $15 billion industry right now. Steve Wow. That's crazy. Craig, this is excellent stuff, folks. And if you want more from Craig, you can do that. We'll go with the name, Jim, for consistency, but you can do text, the name Jim, to this number. Craig to 855 385 5553. So let's just text and Jim to 855 385 5553. Steve And as always good stuff, Craig, if you want more information on those different activities for the kids, again, you will find it at Dyson is the name of the company. Likewise, if you get in touch with Craig, he's more than willing to help out. And like I said, Craig, we appreciate you, especially this time. It's valuable stuff. And we understand it. So thanks again. Craig All right, take care. Bye-Bye, guys. Steve Thank you. Thank you. There goes everybody, Craig Peterson. And great stuff. Craig I've been sort of mulling over the security question thing for a while that just like what street did you grow up on? That's specific information to come up with if you're a hacker, it's just to me it just seems way too easy. So yeah, what street did you grow up on honeysuckle? It's not honeysuckle, but that's what I'm, you know, whatever. You're right. Just make sure you write them all down somewhere. And then I'll use the one password it can have secure notes. Don't forget it. All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for reaching out to me yesterday. Text Me Me at Craig Peterson dot com. I appreciate that. I got a couple of excellent comments. I think I might be onto something here through something that's going to help you guys out. So anyhow, have a great day. I expect I'll be back tomorrow if I have a decent interview on WGAN as well. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We talked about the new infestation from Asia to our continent, the Asian Murder Hornet.  We also discussed the importance of being careful when you search online for information because in many cases, Google results have been poisoned.  Which means you will not get the results you are looking for. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Jack and I, we're just talking about those $500 checks for dependents. Don't only search online. Poisoning of results on Google and as well as on a number of the other search engines is occurring. Now, if I send you to places, they'll send it to sites you don't want to visit. Craig Hey, everybody, Craig Peterson here. I hope you're having a decent day. I had fun with Jack Heath on his morning drive show, carried on I heart stations and others. He's on several stations and networks. It is kind of cool. Anyhow. On the subject of the new Asian hornet and here, the murderer hornet, came up this morning. We also talked about some of the new technology stuff we all need to understand. So here we go with Mr. Heath. Jack We're going now to one of our great regular contributors Craig Peterson. Tech Talk Craig Peterson dot com and on Tech Talk side, Craig, these scams are getting worse. There are scams everywhere now related to COVID-19, but what else you have? Craig Yeah, it's gotten terrible. You know, I'm a beekeeper too, right. Jack What's your take on the murder hornet? Unknown Speaker 1:18 Did you know I have chickens and used to have horses? Well, they, frankly, it's kind of scary, but the Hornets are already here. I had a real problem last year with the Hornets. They go right around the beehives these Hornets we already have like the bald-faced Hornets nasty things. They kill bees, and they eat the bees. We are losing about 50% of our bee populations every year here in the country. Now, this murder Hornet came from Asia, the Varroa destructor mite, which also came from Asia, is killing off. About a third looks like here in New Hampshire are our hives every year. Things are awful for bees. And, and we need them for pollination California depends on it. Half of all of the bee colonies in the United States get trucked to California to pollinate almonds every year. So it's Yeah, it's a problem, and this murder hornet makes it worse. These things are enormous. They're bigger than your thumb. Jack I know Justin wants to get one as a pet, like a tarantula. But Craig, I am not going to have to go to the grocery store in a B suit. A mask is ok, but is that we're going to have soon? Craig Hey, if you're looking for COVID-19 information, I want to remind people the FBI is warning right now again, if you're looking for information, you can go directly to the CDC, or Johns Hopkins University also has some great news. There are so many scams out that are trying to get you to give information. Jack and I, we're just talking about those $500 checks for dependents. Don't only search online. Poisoning of results on Google and as well as on a number of the other search engines is occurring. Now, if I send you to places, they'll send it to sites you don't want to visit. Jack So go directly to irs.gov. Go to those. You know, it's funny to say that I was going off a news story last Thursday or Friday, and I just searched. And it did not take me to the correct topic. It's funny what's happening now with Google? Craig Yeah, I mean, it's been around for a while here. And Google learns from people's actions on the website. So if you go to Google, you search for something. You click on articles. Google says, oh, how many people clicked on this and clicked on that? Oh, it's popular, and they have a bunch of ways to figure out what it's popular, whether it should show it to you. People can go online to Google, and as few as a few dozen people using these bots can trick Google into sending you to places that you probably shouldn't be going, and that is what is known as poisoning. So it's, this has gotten extremely bad. And you're right to warn people to be doubly careful those emails that come in so many of them have some nasty stuff attached to them. And we also see real quick here office work is changing. It's going to change afterward, and I want to point out something that Dyson has done that's fantastic. You can go to the James Dyson foundation online. They have put up new challenges for our kids, their engineers over at Dyson 44 different challenges your kids can do at home, for schools, and great for homeschool right now. Let's get those engineers going. Jack Alright, and Craig By the way, you're going to be our murder Hornet correspondent, and since you're a beekeeper, I want your code name to be Green Hornet. I want you to keep us posted on the murder hornet. Craig Salut. Craig Hey guys, I have fought here. I'm you know, I ran about two dozen of these different webinars just doing some training. And I think we have something that we can do for you and I say we I mean my team and I and are thinking about right now, let me know by dropping me an email just me, me at Craig peterson.com. Well, here's what I'm thinking. You guys need some basic level of training to get you up to understand the basics of what you need to do as far as your cybersecurity. Right. So that's one part of it. None of you, I don't think are trying to become cybersecurity experts. And then on the other side, you guys are interested in knowing - What do I need to do this month? You know, what are the patches I need to worry about, etc., etc. So that's what I'm thinking about putting together. It would be a paid service but affordable for even the smallest of businesses. I'm thinking about doing a founders launch, where the first ones who join will lock in the low price forever. Let me know if you think that might work. I want to get you to a basic level of understanding and then showing you what to do each month, helping you know, what you need to be doing, and how to do it, and how to recover from problems. Maybe we should have kind of an add on that provides you with tech support if you have issues. So, let me know what you think. Just email me: me at Craig Peterson dot com. Have a great day, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Matt this morning and we had a good discussion about the security problems introduced by internet-connected medical devices know as IoMT. Let's get into my conversation with Matt on WGAN. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig We still today have some of that same equipment that hospitals had 20 years ago. And most of it never gets updated. And the big reason is they say, Well listen, if we change the software in it if we do an update or an upgrade then recertification is necessary. Hey, happy hump day, everybody. Greg Peters here on this morning on mains radio stations with Matt, and we talked about a couple of my top issues this week. Matt always picks the best ones out of the hat. Matt 736 on the WGAN Morning News. It is Wednesday morning. On a Wednesday at that time means that it's time to talk to Craig Peterson, our tech guru joins us on Wednesdays to talk about all things technology. Craig, welcome to the program. Craig Hey, that's me. Matt That it is. You are also heard at this very station some other time. Right? What is it exactly that you're on this thing? The weekend or something? I don't know. Unknown Speaker 1:04 Saturday at one o'clock. We go into, of course, more detail and, and more of the articles that I publish every week. Like those, I send it to you, Matt. Matt Indeed, indeed. So let's talk I was talking a moment ago about telehealth and whatnot. So let's get the health prognosis on the security of some cool devices known as IoMT devices. Am I getting that right? Craig Yeah, exactly. That's the internet of medical things. Matt Ah, another good acronym for me to remember. Craig Exactly. Well, at least, you know, in the computer world, we have a lot of TLS three-letter acronyms. And this is an FMLA, a four-letter acronym. Oh, yeah. Matt All right. Well, it's a good question, though. Because with all of the medical connections we're making, I guess you could say. People are probably very concerned about the security of their health data and everything. Else than that, perhaps it is getting passed back and forth by these things. So how, how secure are they? Craig Yeah, well, here's your big problem. These devices are utterly insecure, for the most part. Excellent. Isn't that wonderful? Good news. Good news. Welcome to Hump Day. Yeah, here's the problem. We have all of these medical equipment in our hospitals. That's hooked up to the internet. I remember the first time I got a chain of hospitals as a client, man, and this would have been the mid-90s, I think it was. And they had all of these different machines, X-ray machines and others hooked up to their network. And I started to look into it back then it's been a long time and found Well, first of all, they had a flat-network. They were doing everything wrong. But we still today have some of that same equipment that hospital had 20 years ago. And most of it never gets updated. And the big reason is they say, Well listen, if we change the software, and if we do it An update or an upgrade requiring recertification. We're talking about everything from pumps through an implanted, auto distributed, or pacemaker that might be in someone's chest, these x-ray machines, these CAT scan machines, all of these things. Hospitals do seem to think that they just cannot do an update because then they actually would violate the law. The federal government kind of cleared up over the last few weeks, here saying no, no, no, no, in fact, we are encouraging you to run updates. Put them on, because these older machines are still running, believe it or not, Windows 95 XP or Windows seven. Operating systems that are no longer supported. Many of these machines have never been upgraded, which puts us all at risk, in this case, physical peril. Matt I'm talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us periodically to talk about what's going on in the world of technology. Speaking of privacy, and questions like this, what's Amazon up to these days? I understand they told Congress something that was not true. Is that accurate? Craig One might think that that never happens, right? But here's what's going on. If you are a small business, of course, right now, things are probably more challenging for you than for a big retailer. Many small companies have been selling through Amazon, and it's been a great little channel for them. With almost half of the products sold on Amazon are being sold by third parties. But the problem that right now is that Amazon has come out with its own line products. Now, you might not be aware of this, but Amazon does have some of its own brands, that it's selling online. These are their private-labeled brand. There's more than 145 of them now. And you'll see them like Amazon essentials, which is Amazon, right and Amazon basic. They have other things like spotted zebra, which is a kid's clothing, clothing line, Hayden rose, stolen being those are all Amazon brands. Now apparently, they lied to Congress. No, they told Congress that they don't use merchant data. What they were doing is looking at all of these small vendors saying what is selling? Well, what kind of a margin could we have if we sold the same or similar products and went right around that small vendor that might have developed this product, and then introducing them as one of these hundred and 45 private label brands? Several regulatory probes are starting up concerning this in the US and the European Union. They opened, in fact, the EU and investigation last year. And they're probing Amazon's use of quote, "competitively sensitive information about the marketplace, sellers, their product transactions on the marketplace," unquote, to boost their own retail business. Matt Craig Peterson, our tech guru, joins us on Wednesdays to talk about the world of technology. And you can hear him on this very station Saturdays at one o'clock, where he goes into more depth and detail about all of these stories and so many more, Greg, appreciate it as always, and we look forward to talking to you again next week. Craig Take care, man. Bye. You bet. Matt All right, coming up next. Hey, everybody, take care Craig Craig Peterson here and we'll be back this weekend with my radio show. Some more podcasts. I did a Facebook Live. I don't know if you were able to attend them this week. I did not promote them. But I will be, I'll tell you. We'll have people sign up for a select live list for my email, so make sure you're on that Craig peterson.com slash subscribe. Take care. Bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Jim Polito this morning. We discussed some of the problems that the Small Business Administration is having with their computer architecture and why it crashed while trying to process requests for these small business saving loans from the Federal Government.  So, here we go with Jim Polito For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig What ended up happening is that the SBA PPP portal site crashed. Now, you can make these websites so that they run even with the Intel hardware. You tend to have clusters you have the models scale, but they didn't do it. Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito on WTAG also in Springfield, Mass on why and how. Let's get into it with Jim and me in his kitchen. Jim Here is the man with the plan and all the answers. I'm talking about our good friend and tech talk guru, Craig Peterson. Good morning, Craig. Craig Hey, good morning, Jim. I'm doing well today. Jim All right, good. I want to keep hearing that from you. I want to make sure that you are feeling that way. But it seems to me that the Small Business administration's computer system, do you even call them mainframes anymore? Kind of crashed yesterday is that term still relevant? A mainframe for IBM is that part of their business? Craig Yes, but it has been shrinking over the years. But yeah, it's still called big iron or a mainframe. And they are still the most amazing computers made by far. Those things are they just are rock solid are very, very fast. They put these clusters of these cheap computers that are used by Google etc. They put them to shame. It's just I, and I was looking at them recently for my business, you know, kind of a small version of a mainframe. And it was, we ran tests on it, comparing them to some of the biggest Intel servers and clusters of Intel servers and the mainframe still beat them. Jim Wow. I like the "big iron" term. That's a new bit of terminology there that I haven't heard before. Big iron. So what happened to SBAs big iron? The SBA was running big iron. Oh, was it? Or was it a network of these cheap little computers all put together like a blade farm. Craig A lot of businesses are having problems, right now with people. They are having issues with their systems, and the whole point goes back to experience. I know how to program in COBOL. It was like the third computer language I learned way back when. I have to say something, by the way, sorry, Jim I have to insert this we celebrated our 37th wedding anniversary here just a week ago. Yeah, it is incredible. Unknown Speaker 3:06 Wow, if I had known that, I would have opened with it. Unknown Speaker 3:11 Anyway, they're having problems because they can't find these COBOL programmers to make changes to the systems. After all, the systems have been pretty much steady over the years. And with what the federal government passed and some of the states are doing, they had to make some very, very big changes. Well, this whole paycheck Protection Program, of course, got refunded this week, you've been talking about it. And a lot of people are very frustrated because they've been pulling all-nighters trying to process these people have been doing the same thing, both sides of it. But what we saw right now is on the front end, regular old servers, those Intel machines that we've been talking about, that are running the websites Know You can run sites on mainframes, but usually, you don't know when we're not going to know the technical stuff, it gets kind of geeky. But what ended up happening is that the SBA PPP portal site crashed. Now, you can make these websites so that they even with, you know, obviously, with the Intel hardware review, you tend to have clusters, you have the models scale, but they didn't do it because they got a second wave of this small business simulation plan submissions. And they messed up it think back to the whole Obamacare website debacle. And that they might, yeah, oh, it's crazy, right. And I was saying, you know, it's going to take them three years to make this damn thing work. And I was right almost to the day, because it's, again, it's government, its bureaucracy. They move slowly. It had been something that a small company that knew what they were doing, even a big one like Google had put in place, and they would have made sure it could scale, it could have handled all of the tie ins to the back end, which is part of the problem. Every one of these banks has a different system. So, even when the SBA goes and collects the information and gets you approved for this loan or that loan, once the banks get involved, they end up having to enter the data into the SBA into their systems manually. It is it the whole thing is not, so we just weren't ready for it from a tech side. Jim We're talking with our good friend, tech guru Craig Peterson about all this stuff going on. The chances are, the chances are that this will happen again, what do you think? Or are they on top of it? Craig Are you talking about the crashes and stuff? Jim Yeah. Craig No, the odds are outstanding that they will not. It is the government, right. I went to the store the other day, right. And I was there with my wife, and I said, you know, this is what socialism looks like empty shells everywhere. Jim Exactly. It is the look of socialism. Craig It is. So, when we're talking about government, it and these computer systems, if there is another big round of funding, and a lot of people apply, then yes, it's going to happen again, and it's going to take forever. Yeah, and I have a daughter who is a high-up in one of these big banks. They're having problems because they have to enter data manually, and there aren't even ways to transfer it to transfer directly automatically to the SBA and vice versa. So it takes a week sometimes, and The only businesses and I bellyache about how I couldn't get a dime out of the vault any of this money for my business. Yeah. But, you know, small businesses that have applied it's taking weeks or longer. It is a shame. I was supposed to get a check from the SBA within three days of application. I didn't even get a notice from them until two and a half weeks telling me I was not eligible. Jim Wow. Yeah, see that? That's not good. You know, we're talking with our tech talk guru Craig Peterson. Hey, I want to talk to you about this because after the show today, I have to go into a Microsoft team meeting, you know, using that software. Right. And, because that's how we meet now, you know, with the company since I'm doing this from the kitchen, but I read what you sent me Microsoft Teams using artificial intelligence so that if Pops, the dog barks It will filter that out. Everybody in the group likes to hear that because they often asked me to pick him up, which is becoming increasingly difficult to do and put them in my lap so everybody can see him because he's 55 pounds now. You said that it would give Microsoft Teams a competitive advantage over some of these other collaboration platforms, like Zoom and Facebook. Why? Unknown Speaker 8:32 It's true. That's what's going on. We've got Zoom, oh, by the way, never use zoom for business ever, ever, ever. It is so insecure, makes the mind spin. Okay, so that's number one. So a lot of people have Microsoft, which used to be called office 365 and is now called the Microsoft Office 360. Yeah, and then I've got Microsoft 360 and See, the people that were using it said, Oh, wait a minute, Microsoft has got a team's app. And Microsoft is now advertising it as secure. It's much better in that regard than slack, which is not safe, either. Google Hangout not secure. The only two out there that have achieved the highest rankings in security are WebEx teams. But Microsoft is pretty darn good. So yes, for the competitive advantage, you just mentioned. Here's what they're doing. They're trying to program some artificial intelligence to do something never done before. See, if you've got a fan running in the background, that fan makes a consistent sound. It's called a static noise. And that is has become relatively easy now, relatively speaking, to get rid of Because often that noise is in a different frequency band. Since you are in radio professionally, you know about this. When you're talking about some of these dynamic sounds like a dog barking, a door slamming shut any of these types of things, a vacuum cleaner running in the background can be easy enough to block out. How about if all of a sudden they turn it on? How does it recognize it? It is what Microsoft is working on is real-time noise suppression. So while you're in a meeting and you're sitting there eating that bag of chips there, Jim yet that bag of chips rattle is going to be filtered out so they'll have no idea unless they see you with it. Jim I've heard you know, people talking about it. And Kathy and I were talking about how people have become more accepting of distractions like if you're on a conference call before COVID-19, most people will try to you know, quiet and everybody in the house. Be quiet and this and you know, and now everyone seems to be more forgiving of all of these distractions and other noises that they're saying, well that's okay. You know, as I get it. That's okay. I mean, I have told Kathy, the boys, and pops, you know, as long as his bark isn't incessant if he makes a bark, I sometimes work, and into what I'm saying but the background noise I think right now from home as I'm doing this show for just for me, is good. Because it lets people know No, I am doing the show from home. And like you, I'm working amid a functioning household, you know, to kind of bring some realism to it. I can see that. Though if I am on the phone negotiating a multi-billion dollar or multi-million dollar advertising package with an advertising agency, I can see where it might be problematic to hear the dog barking incessantly, while people are going through figures for that size of a deal. I can see that I can see where it would come in handy because none of us live in a secluded monastery if you know what I mean. Craig Yeah, you think your comment there about you know there's a functioning household going on behind. I do agree people are getting much more tolerant of it. It is the norm, even with financial stuff. I might have mentioned before I have a daughter who works as in a call center inbound for a significant financial institution. You know, the dog will make noise, or a cat will jump on their shoulder and purr into her microphone. People are becoming very, very aware of that. But the functioning is the good, the good part, right? If it's a non-functioning now, you still might want to have people be quiet. Jim I like that. Well, this has been great. It has been a great conversation, and it always is with Craig Peterson folks, and he's still there for us. He can be there for you. You see, all the information I told you I was talking about you can get that same information that I received from Craig, every week. Exactly. There's no obligation. There's no charge. He's not going to hound you or pester you. And if there's ever an emergency again, or massive hacking, he's the guy who will be providing timely information. So all you have to do is text My name Jim J-I-M to this number Craig 855-385-5553. So just text Jim to 855 385 5553 Jim Standard data and text rates apply. But I would recommend you do it. Then you tune in every Tuesday at this time to hear Craig and I. Craig, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. We'll talk with you next week. Craig All right, say Hi to Pops for me. Jim Thanks. Bye-bye. All right, when we return a final word, you're listening to the Jim Polito show your safe space. Unknown Speaker 14:43 And of course me@Craig Peterson.com, everybody. Have a great day. We'll be back on the morrow. I don't know if you caught my Facebook Lives this week but a couple of pop-ups here. I'm trying things out. We explained about the job situation in tech and what's happening with jobs. And cybersecurity and, of course, a whole bunch more. And what I'm going to end up doing is I'll send out an email so that if you are on Facebook, I will let you know when I'm doing these lives. All right, everybody, take care. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Matt this morning and we had a good discussion about how big tech is trying to provide a technology standard for tracking pandemics using our smartphones and what this will mean to our privacy.  Let's get into my conversation with Matt on WGAN. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig There's a lot of people who are concerned about this so-called Patriot Act response to the COVID-19. We have Apple and Google working together to come up with a standard to use on our smartphone. Are you worried about whether or not the government's going to not only track you as part of this whole COVID-19 response but also do kind of a patriot act thing? Or they might try and force not us, our smartphone carriers to track us? Hi, this is Craig Peterson. Let's get into my conversation with Matt on WGAN. Matt It is 738, which means that it is time to talk to our tech guru Craig Peterson. He joins us every Wednesday at this time to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig Peterson. How are you this morning, sir? Craig Hey, good morning. I'm doing well. Matt Did you hear about this alleged hack of The WHO, the Gates Foundation, and the Wuhan Institute of Virology?. Craig I did, and I was going to ask you about it. Matt Well, what did you find out? Well, I mean, I, frankly, I just saw the headline. I didn't read anything about it. But I did notice that there was compromised information, a bunch of emails, I believe, and some data taken. But outside of that, I didn't read much about it. Craig Yeah, we've not verified it at this point. Some anonymous activists have posted about 25,000 email addresses and passwords that they're claiming belong to the National Institutes of Health, the World Health Organization, and the Gates Foundation. These are all different groups working to battle this Coronavirus pandemic that's been happening, and they've posted them out on some of these sites, you know, not quite dark web but like 4chan and, and a few others. We'll see what ends up happening, and it could be kind of enlightening to see some of the statistics, some of the numbers, some of the emails. It reminds me of the global warming hack that happened where it turned out all of these global warming scientists had been conspiring to present false information. I wonder what's going to happen here? Matt It's an excellent question, and perhaps we'll get an answer to it as time goes by. I've got some questions for you here, Mr. Peterson. My first one and this is significant to me because I've been watching this one. I've been waiting for this story to percolate it's way out because it was inevitable, frankly, but the Coronavirus has inspired a lot of people to want to know where people are and to track who's sick and where they're going. I've seen several stories over the last couple weeks of you know about Apple and the iPhone, and the devices we have in our hands turned into potentially tracking tools that would help surveil the American public as we fight the virus and whatnot. What what you know what truce is there to that? I mean, is there is that something that's happening now going to happen? Are we being surveilled? Are we going to be surveilled? What do you think, Craig? Craig Well, there's a lot of truth to that, because we are being surveilled to various degrees right now when it comes to the Coronavirus tracking. We've got Google, which has a tracker online. It's using information, like it does every year, for the spread of the flu based on the searches people are doing and collects data on people's searches. How do I solve this? What do I do to get over this particular illness? There's a lot of people who are concerned about a Patriot Act type response to the COVID-19. We have Apple and Google. They are working together to come up with a standard for use on our smartphones. Our smartphones all have Bluetooth in the middle. There's a unique software if you will, that runs On those little Bluetooth chips that can help to determine how far your device is from the other Bluetooth device. And the software that Apple and Google have come up with allows you to track whether or not you have been within six feet of someone else. So the worries are that the federal government is going to force this to be on our phones. Will they require us to run an app that allows them to trackback. Let's say you show up at the hospital, and you have the symptoms of COVID-19. And they want to find out who you have spoken to, you know, what have you done in the last two weeks? And right now, they have to sit there, and they go through your memory and saying who did you see? Where were you? With who did you have close contact? But what this will do is it'll allow them to look at your phone and find out everybody that you being within six feet of potentially contacts them, test them and quarantine them. And that's where the significant concerns are coming in. Matt We're talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us on Wednesdays at this time to go over what's happening in the world of technology. I mean, is this thing though, Craig. I mean, the requirement from the government. It is not the only thing that I'm afraid of, and I'm also scared these companies will just voluntarily start doing it. I mean, we're so integrated with Google and Facebook and everything else that we use in our lives technologically related that you know, they can, you know, without government requirements, just say, yeah, we're going to cooperate with the government here. We're going to track all of our people and do all these things kind of on our own. And it seems like they are almost ready to do that kind of stuff already. Craig Well, they already are Matt, and they're providing the information in an anonymized fashion. Now, you and I both know that the data had might have been anonymized, but it's quite, quite easy to D anonymize that data. Find out who everybody was. But what the concern here is with COVID-19 is whether or not you were within six or 10 feet from someone else. And the type of resolution most of our phones have won't tell them that because they can use the GPS, they can use the Wi-Fi signals to try to figure out where you are, and they can kind of get close. But do they know you're within six feet of someone at the grocery store? And the answer's no, or at the office or wherever you might have gone. It kind of rolls on here and we got warnings about next winters potentially bringing this back in a big way again, that's where I started getting concerned because these apps, First of all, I have not been well accepted they have been available in some Asian countries. At most, one-third of all people have used them, which makes it basically in the fact of, but secondly, if you know they decide, hey, this is something You have to have, are they going to be able to force it on us? I don't know. Are they going to be able to surveil us like they did, apparently about the whole Trump Organization, which has come out this week? That was their goal. I just don't know Matt. The technology exists to do it, and they are already doing it to some degree. Matt Indeed. All right. Well, Craig Peterson, our tech guru, joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, thank you, as always, and we'll talk again next week. Craig Take care, Matt, Bye-bye. Matt Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. So coming up... Craig Hey, everybody, if you need a little bit of help in this COVID-19 time, we're giving away a little bit of free time, free consulting, I've set aside some 15-minute blocks where we can chat and help you out with your home computer, whatever it might be. And if you more extensive help, we also have some paid plans. It is free. Just go to Craig Peterson dot com and fill the contact form at the bottom of my home page. Craig Peterson dot com. We'll be glad to help you out. Everybody have a great weekend. We'll be back this weekend with more. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed video conferencing and the problems with the Zoom platform.  We also talked about Zoom bombing and how you can prevent it if you insist on using the Zoom platform. I do recommend the WebEx teams platform because it is currently the only one that meets the security required by these regulatory standards for businesses.  Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig But if you want to stop these Zoom bombs, there's a couple of things to do. First of all, every Zoom meeting has this nine-digit meeting ID. So number one, don't post that up online. Don't share that everywhere. Craig Hey, good morning, Craig Peterson here with Jack Heath this morning. I went through the productivity and collaboration tools that you should and those you should not use. You know, my opinions about Zoom, I'll even tell you some of the things you can do to help secure it. So here we go with Jack. Jack Welcome, Craig Peterson of Tech Talk. Craig, if you're on Zoom and doing some of these other things that people are looking into, how can we avoid that? Craig Yeah, there's a lot of people that started using Zoom. It's been around for a while. A video conferencing platform that allows you to get many people together to talk in separate offices. I've been using it off and on fact, and used it for some of the FBI InfraGard training that I did for years. It is the default chat platform, and what you're talking about is something that's become known as Zoom bombing. It is where someone joins in on your Zoom meeting that you did not invite. Schools that have been using Zoom have seen people get in and shout profanities at the teacher and then drop off. Some of the meetings have had pornography dropped into the middle of them. There are some things you can do to stop that. But first, you must understand that you should never, ever use Zoom for any meeting where you are discussing confidential information. It is illegal under most Federal regulations or for any regulated industry. So keep that in mind. If you want to stop these Zoom bombs, there's a couple of things to do. First of all, every Zoom meeting has this nine-digit meeting ID. So number one, don't post that up online, don't share that everywhere. And Zoom does have an option to generate a new random meeting number for every meeting. So check that out as well make sure you use a random meeting number, never use the standard meeting number that you use for your private room. Then the next thing you want to do is turn on the waiting room option so that people can't just join in before you show up and then sit there and lurk, which can be a bit of a problem. And then you're going to want to set a password on the meeting as well so that people need the meeting number they need the password to make sure that they are And hopefully authorized to be there at the conference. And then you can also if you want to lock it down once your session started and people have joined, you can click on lock meeting. Now, remember there are recordings of these meetings. If you're downloading your chat log is going to include private chat that you had in that particular Zoom meeting. So you might not want to share that log with everybody out there. And if you are looking for more security or even more simplicity, consider FaceTime, which comes with all of your Apple's iPhones, etc. There, they now have group chats of up to 32 people with end to end encryption, which by the way, Zoom does not have and then the best option for online meetings that are needed to be secure. And this is according to wired. And although I do sell WebEx, it is WebEx and Cisco. It's a group calling tool. It gives you video calls for up to 100 people for the lower end, aside and all up to 10,000. So there you go. Those are the basic Oh, and one more. Google has something called duo. And that will give you a group chat of up to 10 people. So FaceTime, if I were putting together ad hoc meetings afterward, I would use the Zoom use random meeting IDs set passwords. What about and don't let? Jack Go ahead? No, Craig, what about what about Microsoft Teams? Craig Microsoft Teams is something some people have been using a lot of schools have moved away from Zoom because of the problems. And we've been helping some schools with the WebEx teams. Microsoft has it's a relatively new product, called Teams. I know schools and other organizations that have moved to it. The advantage to one of these teams platforms over something like the Zoom is that But it gives you a collaboration tool as well. So you can have those meetings have face to face meetings. You can share files, and you can have conversations, you can have multiple spaces or team rooms. Again, WebEx is the only one certified for secure communications. But Microsoft Teams and WebEx teams are both excellent platforms. Jack Alright, Craig Peterson, excellent, excellent stuff this morning. Craig Peterson with an "ON" dot com for more. Thank you, Craig. Take care. Hey, w Craig Hey, we are going to be starting up again this week. For those of you who have already been attending some of my little video conferences, some of the training. Because it's all linked together, I decided to do something a little different. If you haven't already signed up for one of these webinars. I am not going to be notifying you about the upcoming webinars this week. We'll repeat them here. Probably Another week or two, but you missed the boat on that I'm afraid. We'll have some replays up and stuff for those people, again who have been attending. There's like 150 or so. And that's as big as I want it to be right now. Because I want to be able to answer people's questions in real-time and before we hang up and keep these to a maximum of an hour and a half. So, if you have been on them before, you will probably get an email from me unless I've messed something up, in which case you probably want to reach out to me, but I'm going to be doing some webinars and some pieces of training and stuff every day. This week for those people. Yeah, those people. I guess that's better than you people, right. Take care, guys. Have a great day. I will be back tomorrow with Mr. Jim Polito. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome!  Hey everyone.  I hope you are all doing well during this period of social distancing we are experiencing due to the Covid-19 pandemic. If you are new to doing remote work or working from home then you are going to want to attend the series of webinars on tools, techniques, and tactics you can use to make this easier for you.  These are all offered at no charge. Later next week, I will be offering a live training course on securing your computers, networks, and browsers. This will be deeply discounted. No pressure, but if you are interested, I would appreciate your business. I was on with Jim Polito who was sitting in his kitchen under self-quarantine because the State of Massachusetts has advised their residents to stay home and avoid unnecessary travel and other unnecessary activities during this two-week time period. We discussed VPNs. What they are and when and why to use them and how to use them correctly. So, here we go with Jim Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You are on a laptop, if you're at home, If you're on an airplane, at the airport, at a coffee shop, and you are using a VPN to connect into the network at work. You are now exposing the business network at work to everything around you in that coffee shop. Craig Mr. Jim Polito, this morning had me do a quick rundown of VPNs and why they might not be the right thing for you. And I talked a little bit about, but man some of the real cons to it and what can they do? And that's all part of what's happening later on. Today. I'm doing some intense stuff here on VPN, about an hour's worth answering all your questions, and helping you to understand the house the whys and the when should you use it when it comes to VPN? Of course, you're listening to Craig Peterson, and here we go with Mr. Jim Polito. Jim There is nothing weird about Craig Peterson, nothing at all because he is our good friend. He is a source of invaluable information 365 days a year, but especially during this whole Coronavirus work at home time. He's just second to none. Joining me now, our tech talk guru Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Hey, good morning, Jim. Yeah, I've been very, very busy with webinars. I did them every day, twice a day now for the last week and a half. I've got another probably two weeks' worth, I think. We're going to be doing a live webinar, or two of them one at 4 pm and one at 7:30 pm. But webinars where I'm answering everybody's questions and I'm doing training. Today's topic is a VPN because it's very misunderstood. A lot. A lot of people need a VPN, but when do you need them? How can you use them? When should you use them? When are they useful? And even give some recommendations of some different VPN that you can use out there. So it's been going well, I haven't had a single, negative comment. And so far I've done about, I think it's 12 or 14 of these live webinars just talking about remote workers working from home, what's the technology need to use? What are the threads? How, how are they the home workers now endangering the office, but today's VPN, we're going to have more every day for the next two weeks, and it's right there on my homepage. Jim All right, and Craig, you've been making that available to our listeners, and you made it possible to listeners before you opened it up to everybody else. Greg, why don't you give us just a brief tutorial on a VPN, and that is, You know, so people understand it. I didn't know what it was until about five years ago, myself, and you know what a VPN is? And it's something that yes, in the right circumstances, can protect your data and protect everything else. Craig Yeah, you're right. It's VPN is the host. Again, we have a lot of TLS in this business, which stands for three-letter acronyms. VPN stands for Virtual private network. The idea is that you can hook up two networks together, that's where it came from initially. You know, way back when we'd have to have a T-one line going from one point to another. And you probably remember those Jim because radio stations were using them for years of leased lines to connect to the transmitter. Yeah, and yeah, TV stations everybody. So that's how it started. Well, those were expensive. I had two T-one lines coming to my house 25 years ago, and that cost me almost $6,000 a month. Very, very expensive. Things have changed today, and VPN came into being to replace those expensive leased lines. So with the Internet, what you could do is just have an internet connection and connect the remote office with the main office. And instead of having to have that expensive leased line, now you had a highly encrypted data channel, and it connects the two networks. So that's where it started. Today what we're using it for is very, very similar. We're still using it to connect networks. And that's the beauty of it. And that's the curse of it. And here's the curse smarts. You know, if you are on a laptop, if you're at home if you're on an airplane, At the airport at a coffee shop, and you are using a VPN to connect into the network at work. You are now opening up your business network at work to everything around you in that coffee shop. Jim So you've been talking about open 19 Craig Yeah, exactly. And Covid-19. What are we trying to do right now? Isolate? Jim Isolate? We're trying to die. That's the key. Craig Yeah. Because here's your significant danger. You walk into the house, and you bring Covid-19 into a home. And now all of a sudden people have it, and they're dying. Well, what do you think happens when you connect on a home computer? That is a pretty high likelihood that it's infected somehow? What happens when you connect that VPN now to the business network, you're spreading disease so VPNs on No, no, no, you have to be very, very careful. So here's another problem with the VPN. Jim So I guess the way you look at it is no, but the way you look at it is, so the VPN is that secure connection. But if your connection to that secure connection is lousy, then what's the sense of having that other secure connection between you and your employer? Craig You're making things worse. Exactly. Yeah, the connection may be secure. Yeah. So here's your other problem, you go out. And let's say you get a Norton VPN or something. And we're going to talk a lot more about this. Today, I'm going to show graphics about how this all works. So I help people understand. But you get one of these free VPN services or even one of these paid VPN services. Your data is only secure from your device to the VPN server. So let's say you're using one of these paid VPNs and you're connecting to the bank, and somehow you think And it's giving you additional security. It's not, and it is not at all. It might be making it worse, particularly with the free VPN services that are out there, you will be less secure because they are: what the old Willie Sutton quote, "why did he rob banks because that's where the money is," with VPNs that's where the money is going. Craig Yeah, the attackers are going after these three VPN servers and other VPN services, because they know that's where all of the connections are. And some of these VPN services are even tracking everything you do, everywhere you go, and some of them are also evil. I've seen VPN services that are running through Russia that require you to install this unique key so that you can use it and are doing a man in the middle attack. So that's why we're going to cover for an hour today. It will be at 7:30 pm. I am going through this and helping people understand. They can be useful, they can be necessary, but they must be appropriately secured and used correctly. Jim Alright, so Craig, there's a lot of different ways that folks can get information from you. Now, I know you've got a landing page on your website, and I'm going to I want you to give that out. But the first way is to get other information from you that you put out weekly to me, and then we share here, and that's by texting my name to this number. Craig to 855-385-5553. So just texting Jim 2855385 5553 Jim Standard data and text rates apply now, Craig, for folks to get to your website, and to find out about this webinar, the VPN information how do they do that? Craig Well, we have a registration on the site. The one that's up there right now is for last night. I haven't checked Just this morning, but I will be changing as soon as we get off the phone. Go to Craig Peterson dot com. It'll be right there at the bottom of the homepage at Craig Peterson dot com. That's s-o-n calm. Jim Alright, Greg, thank you so much. I appreciate the time, and we'll catch up with the next week. Unless, of course, something comes up, then you're always welcome here in between. Craig Alright, hey, thanks, Jim. Take care. Jim Take care. Bye-bye, Craig Peterson everybody a great resource. All right, a final word. When we return. You're listening to the Jim Pulido show from my kitchen with pops. Your safe space. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed the Coronavirus, Covid-19, and how it is going to change business and education forever. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Whereas before, it would be so unprofessional to hear a cat meow or child crying in the background that is now acceptable. You know you don't want to be in the middle of a ruckus while you're trying to do work, but overall, it is changing all of our attitudes. We're realizing, you know, people have lives outside of this. And we see this massive shift. Craig A good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. Hopefully, you're doing okay with this whole SARS2 Covid-19 thing that's been going around it, hey, it's a drag at the very least, right? Very, very stressful for so many of us for frankly, some good reasons. Anyhow, and that was me this morning with Mr. Jack Heath, and I tried to stick to the good news on the technology front, and frankly, I think everything is about to change. Jack There's Craig Peterson from Tech Talk joins us live. Craig, good morning. You look at remote learning and people working from home, these changes are profound, and they're not going to go away anytime soon. I think a lot of businesses are studying how this is working. When they find out that a good group of their workforce can do it from home just as efficiently, even when this virus is less of a threat. I don't think these changes to you. Craig Yeah, I don't either. I think it's kind of interesting. You know, I homeschooled all of our kids, my wife and I Ollie kids up, I'll call it because now they've gone on to get MBAs and everything else. But it is easier to do homeschooling most people I think realize and it's a much better product, I think as well. And so we're going to see a surge in homeschooling, we are going to see a continued surge in people working from home. I listened to your prior guests talking about what the monthly nut is only for the real estate, and some of the other things they have to do. You know for businesses that can be mostly virtual, which is what my business has been for more than 20 years, why would I be paying for office space and other things when people already they have a home? Jack Justin wants me to ask you a question, Craig since you work at home, do you ever get lost go into work in the morning? Craig Sometimes I stumbled down the stairs. Jack I've been reading, you know, Craig, you know, just a few bits, you know, a month or two ago, which is to seems like an eternity ago. Many people right now listening to us going into the course. We have more people looking to us from all over the map because people want this information. But people for a business meeting in Boston, many people would have to leave at 5 am for the old nine o'clock as the traffic and a lot of companies. They're looking at, you know, space in Boston high rent, they're going to say wait a minute. Is this better for everyone if they can start working at eight o'clock at home versus 11 o'clock to recover from a stressful commute, and Gonna start looking at this stuff? Craig Yeah, it's taking away the stigma. I have noticed this as well because we get phone calls all the time, and one of our daughters works for, in fact, Fidelity right here in Merrimack, and she is working from home now. She and her co-workers have a cat, and they have dogs, they have kids. And so they're on the phone with people. Whereas before, it would be so unprofessional to hear cat meow or child crying in an acceptable background. You know you don't want to be in the middle of all of the ruckus while you're trying to do work. But that is changing all of our attitudes. And we're realizing, you know, people have lives outside of this. And we see that vast shift. You know, another change I've seen here very recently is this whole thing about 3d printers. We've got some new technology out there right now. For instance, the FDA authorized to test last week, that is, they're expecting to ramp up this week that is a five- minute Covid-19 tests. And it's designed for small clinics and you know, the walk-ins and doctor's offices, etc. There's already about 80,000 of these machines out in the field. And they expect this week to see that test available right then and there. It's the size of a toaster. We're seeing 3d printers getting used, and right now, the FDA is working with people. They're going to be releasing designs approved for say smash, nasal swabs, etc. And people are working at home building these things. There are whole groups of people right now that are dedicating their home 3d printers. This one company is cranking out 100,000 nasal swabs a day. Just using these types of printers. People are getting together online using designs that came out of Europe to make some of these medical devices not yet been approved here in the US by the FDA. They have to be careful to meet some of the medical requirements. But they're also printing up some of these supplies that are needed by the medical community. That's all coming together. Yeah. Jack I love this innovation with entrepreneurs stepping forward like our previous guests, the lacrosse helmet company in Exeter cascade to make protective gear for medical it's just a great way to keep people employed and help us out. Craig Peterson. Thank you very much, Craig Peterson dot com. Thanks, Craig. Craig Take care. Craig Hey, I want to point out if you have not been attending these webinars, you are missing out. I've been offering them to my best listeners, really the best followers who are on my email list. But the bottom line I've had nothing but great features. Back from everybody. And I appreciate you guys for doing that too. I do have a sign up on my homepage right now. And you're going to have to sign up for each of these individually. They are different topics, but I think it's all very, very important. And I've been sending out reminders to people too, so check it out. Craig peterson.com Craig Peterson dot com. And right there at the bottom of the screen, you'll see the little signup thing. Have a great day, everybody. I will be busy. I'm doing two webinars today. I'm doing two webinars a day, but sometimes three scheduled anyways here for the next seven days, and it's all about security, remote working workers from home working from home. Just that whole thing. What do you need to know what do you need to do? So make sure you take advantage of this, especially if you have some time right now. It is all free. Your home For Cova 19 time to learn something. All right, everybody, take care. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt and we had a good discussion about how Remote Diagnostics, Remote Work and Coronaviruses, and AI and how this is changing our world.   These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Matt We're back again, and it is 7:38 on the WGAN Morning News with Ken and Matt. We are now talking to Craig Peterson is our tech guru. And he joins us now. Ken Mr. Craig, your timing couldn't be better because I got a new MacBook because my keys kept falling off the butterfly keyboard, which sucked him. I don't know why Apple did it. So I installed on I migrate everything over. And now, when I put on Chrome, and I tried to Google, I get this thing called Rona that comes on air express or something. And I clicked on it to see what it was and at someplace in Tel Aviv, that that says Nitsa. And so what's fascinating to me, by the way, Craig, I'm sure you can't do tech support from the phone right now. But uh, he got a brand new computer and did nothing. I didn't know it was already there. And on my last laptop. I mean, I thought it I identified it as like malware, right. His previous laptop, I sort of found a way around it or whatever, but like he just doesn't do anything and it's there also. Craig Yeah, but it must have happened when you migrated from your old one, hidden deep somewhere, and got installed during migration. Ken Yeah. Oh, that's why you pulled it from the old computer. I thought it was off my old computer. No, it wasn't I hit it. When I did that screen, I hit it so well, should I email Google? Should I email Chrome? Or I throw the computer against the wall? That is another option. I mean, what's this guy? If I email this guy in Tel Aviv, and said, what's this? Craig Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. For the love of God. Don't do that. Matt They did a scan. They didn't find it. I've done so, give me suggestions. Craig Well, it sounds like you got a good tech support guy there locally to figure it out. But it looks like this is coming from Google, isn't it? He's got Chrome. It comes up from Chrome. I didn't know you didn't Google. Ken When I hit a web Chrome, it comes up instead of saying, "Google," it says, "Search." And then it's a smart search. It has this air Express, Facebook, Twitter, and it's just a standard launch page, but it has this Ollie Express thing next to it. Craig It's malware. Yeah, something new, but they got installed a while ago, a month ago and migrated. Well, that sort of thing takes a little bit to fix, and I definitely can do it. I bring it down virtually. Ken I wonder if I find the mouse if my guy can do it. Craig Yeah, usually the migration, it's not a big problem. And it's, there's a lot of these types of things go around. Well, of course, the biggest one is when people install these toolbars on their browsers. There's nothing but spyware in there. It doesn't sound like that. Matt would notice the difference. The toolbar Yeah, Matt The toolbar Yeah. No, I actually, that's the first thought I had too. I tried to get rid of it. I went to see if it was an extension. It was an extension. Yeah, I think I put Malwarebytes on his computer too. It's got Malwarebytes, and I ran it, and it found nothing. So this is probably not nasty, it's just annoying. Craig Yes. Matt It's trying to sell him something. Craig Yeah. Well, hey guys, I've got to bring something up here that I did almost a week ago now. There are millions of people who are working from home currently. Remote workers, many people even trying to figure out how to start a little business at home. I almost didn't wake up for this morning. Because I've been putting on these webinars, there are nine different webinars on topics related to security, not installing these nasty browser extensions. I did two webinars yesterday. These webinars are free. We talked about a browser extension you can put onto Chrome and other browsers, that is going to save your laptop battery, it's going to speed things up. It's just going to do a whole bunch of great stuff for you. I wanted to bring up today that I again, a bunch of people signed up. My next one is on Thursday. I'm going to do two on Thursday, two on Friday, one on Sunday. And then every day next week, I'm going to be doing two of them. And we're covering all kinds of topics, including some extensions that do stop malware on your browsers. We're going to go into VPN, when can you use them? When should you use them that Norton VPN isn't going to help you at all when it's time to get into the office, using a VPN versus remote desktop software. We're going to be covering your firewalls, and What kind of a firewall should you have? The attacks prevalent right now for home users? For a network router slash firewall? How should you be trading at a Wi-Fi? What do you need to know about Wi-Fi? All of this stuff and all free. And unlike that nastiness that you've got to your machine can I'm not sitting there trying to sell you anything. These are free, and we're talking about 10 hours plus worth of some training here. I'm working from home and doing it securely. And what I'd like to do is ask people to take a couple of minutes right now, because whether you are a retiree, or you are running a 500 person company, this information is something you need to have. And we've had a great response. I love the feedback people have been giving. So that's kind of given me a little bit more energy to do this. But if you are interested, You need to be on my email list because that's where I put the announcements out. I am not one of these marketers and new million pieces of emails a day. But if you go to Craig Peterson comm slash subscribe. It is so important right now because I'm getting notifications every day almost from the FBI, about new scans that the bad guys are running against people who are working from home. It is nuts. So these are not just me lecturing, these are two, and as they are LIVE. I'm answering all your questions, live. I'm showing you how to do things. And it's I hate to say this sounds a little self-serving, but it is thousands of dollars worth of training that I'm doing for free This is to help people out. Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe to attend You're going to need you can have a computer you can use your tablet you can use your phone, your smartphone that is and make sure you've got a piece of paper and a pencil ready and handy to do stuff. And anyone who attends gets replays. I have specialized training and special thank you things are people that participate because I know it's a lot of work for you too, but, but I want to get this out right now. It is just it's so important. I don't want you to get nailed or badly by these bad guys. Matt we're talking to Craig Peterson, he's our tech guru, and he joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. No topic gets discussed without Coronavirus as part of it. Ladies and gentlemen, and so that is no exception for you, Craig, companies are trying to respond to this whole thing, and it's making them turn to what appears to be artificial intelligence. Are we creating Skynet here, in response to the Coronavirus? Should I be worried about this? Unknown Speaker 8:08 I heard that Prince Charles tested positive for Coronavirus this morning. Testing positive looks like the world might be coming to an end. Who knows, right? Yeah, here's the trick. We have a lot of companies who don't have all of the workers, and there was just a new story here at the bottom of the hour talking about the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard and some of the ironworkers trying to say, Hey, listen, we this is kind of dangerous for us. Workers are just not showing up, or they're being told not to show up. It depends on the company. The big tech companies are trying to use this artificial intelligence now. I don't like the definition that pins these days are using When it comes to artificial intelligence, that word has changed. We used to think of AI and man you too as kind of a Skynet thing. Right? Right? It the computers making decisions, it's learning, it's advancing that smarter than we are, etc., etc. We don't have that yet. It hasn't happened. And there's a lot of warnings about what might happen if that were to happen. But we don't have it. It's not artificial intelligence, and it's barely even machine learning. What it is, is pattern matching. Companies like Facebook, and many others out there right now YouTube, where you're putting content on the site, and people want to make sure that you're not racist, like saying things like President Trump is excellent, which would be horrific. If someone were to say that on Facebook, for instance, tongue firmly planted in cheek there Unknown Speaker 10:02 Who is going to censor the internet now? While they're turning more heavily to computers, machine language programming is looking for patterns, and those particular patterns are what they're calling AI. It is not artificial intelligence. There's throwing that term around again. So Skynet is not a threat. But if you are trying to start a new ad campaign on Facebook, for instance, all ads are reviewed by Facebook. It is going to take longer to get it approved, and there's going to be many more false positives. That is because AI, as they call it, is a little bit more of a curmudgeon than the people who review some of these ads and articles and posts and everything else. So yeah, it this is going to force some movement forward on this AI type front, but the singularity I think, man it is still many, many years away. Matt It is still coming, though. It is today. Ken You just wish to be here fast. Well, we're talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru joins us every Wednesday at 738. before we let you go, Coronaviruses are the story of the year, or the websites and have that the talk about screening is well you can't go to a website to get screened, but there is useful information on testing. Craig Yeah, it didn't come out, believe it or not, you can go to google.com slash Covid-19 and find information there. The symptoms are listed there. Of course, they're all over the place. The CDC has, among many others, but one of Google's companies that the company they own did launch just a few days after President Trump announced is called Verily, this primary site allows people to go on and answer a few questions. It comes up with a diagnosis of, yeah, you probably got it, which you could have got that same diagnosis from your cousin. It is very, very simple. They're adding in now where you can go to get tested because, of course, as you guys already know, they don't want you just showing up in the emergency room of a hospital, with potentially Coronavirus where you can spread it. We already know hospitals are the worst place to go if you're sick, because you can catch diseases there, you just can't get anywhere else. They don't want to add Covid-19 to that list. So you can check it out. google.com slash subscribe if you want a little more information. Unknown Speaker 12:48 All right. Greg Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us now as he always does on Wednesdays to go over the world of technology. We're going to leave it there, Craig. So we appreciate you joining us as always, and we will talk to you next week. Unknown Speaker 13:00 All right, I'll be on Saturday, of course, at 1 pm cover some more of these topics everyone needs to know. And then again that URL to sign up as Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe in here guys. Thanks a lot, Greg. Unknown Speaker 13:15 Great. Let's go to the break room, ladies and gentlemen. Go to Eric. He's got all the top stories of the day. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome!  Hey everyone.  I hope you are all doing well during this period of social distancing we are experiencing due to the Covid-19 pandemic. If you are new to doing remote work or working from home then you are going to want to attend the series of webinars on tools, techniques, and tactics you can use to make this easier for you.  These are all offered at no charge. Later next week, I will be offering a live training course on securing your computers, networks, and browsers. This will be deeply discounted. No pressure, but if you are interested, I would appreciate your business. I was on with Jim Polito who was sitting in his kitchen under self-quarantine because he recently traveled overseas. We discussed some Top Tips for Remote Working and Working From Home. So, here we go with Jim Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig There is a special plug-in that goes into your browsers, which helps to improve the whole browser experience. You use less memory, you will use less battery if you're on a laptop, and maybe you're out a little bit. That's the kind of the scope of what we're doing. We're getting into security as well. I'm going to teach you the tools, techniques, and tactics that I use, Jim. Craig This morning I was on with Jim Polito course, Craig Peterson here. And I spent a little time talking about the webinars, and what I have learned from more than 20 years of working from home and with my family. I will tell you the things that work for all of us. So listen in here we go. Jim He is the man, and this is the guy you want to turn to in times like these. I'm talking about our tech talk guru, Craig Peterson. Good morning, Craig. Craig Good Morning. I guess I am the man of the hour. I can't believe how many people have work from home questions. Jim Listen, let's start by just letting everybody know at the end of this segment, you can get all of this information plus more. You can get on his list, which is an excellent thing, especially now. Because you will send great information along to people, and you won't try to sell them anything or anything else. It's just that's how it is. But that we'll talk about at the end, but you've got some webinars going on. Before we get to our topics at hand, you have a pretty significant announcement. Craig Yeah, this is a very, very big thing. I think for so many people. We have, as you might know, I've been doing webinars for the FBI is infragard program. That's where The FBI works with critical infrastructure and critical businesses in several areas. Now, I guess based on what you were saying this morning. I've been doing these for quite a while. And the whole idea is to help businesses understand what they need to do. And we get some information from the FBI. They'll tell us stuff that they'll tell anybody, and then they keep everything that keeps us up at night, close to their chest. Yeah. Here's what I'm going to do. I have been doing webinars now for quite a few years, and we have some brand new ones. I have nine different remote work or work from home type of webinars coming up over the next two weeks. We're going delve into a different topic each day. I'm going to make them available to people who sign up. That is important as these are going to be LIVE. I will stay on and answer everybody's questions. The ones that I've done so far, they have been averaging about an hour and a half long. We're going to have one at 4 pm. Today, one at 9 pm tonight, and we're going to be talking about how to a special plug-in for your browsers, that helps to improve the whole browser experience. It will help you use less memory, you use less battery if you're on a laptop, and you step out for a little bit. That's the scope of what we're doing, and we will be getting into security as well. I'm going to teach you the tools, techniques, and tactics that I use, Jim. The way people sign up is they can just go to my website, Craig Peterson dot com slash Jim. There's a special sign-up there. Craig Peterson dot com slash Jim. It is just teaching and is free for everybody. Even though maybe you're a little bit older, you're not working anymore. Although aimed at remote workers, both for the business owner and the people working from home. If you're a little bit older, you're not working anymore, and you are still going to get a lot of benefit out of these webinars because you're going to learn a lot more about security. I'm going to give you all these free tools I use. We'll talk a little bit about some of the paid tools that we use, but it's all about remote working in this day and age. Jim That's great. You know what I'll do, we always podcast this segment. And what I'll do is I'll put up a link in that podcast posting at WTAG dot com on the Jim Polito Show page. When I broadcast this later this morning, I'll put that link up so people can get it now. I used some of the information you sent me. I mean, all of it was fascinating. However, I want to zero in on one thing. The big gamble that tech companies are making right now. As you know, they say necessity is the mother of invention. These companies must now take a more in-depth look at artificial intelligence. Not that companies aren't already using it, including our artificial intelligence right here at iHeart. But artificial intelligence in terms of these big tech companies, and it's kind of a gamble right now, why don't you explain that? Craig Yeah, it is because their people, you know, they aren't able to go into work. We've been using it in the tech industry for quite a while. We have used it to work with foreign workers as well. That has been wonderful for them because it helps to move them up to the food ladder if you will by increasing their pay. You know, it used to be that we would always outsource to India and it was very cheap. Then India's wages now are almost on par depending on what type of work it is with US workers. Currently, India is outsourcing to China. It's great. It's been lifting all the boats in that ocean everybody has been doing a little bit better. But we're at the point now where we need to have some more advanced technology. We're talking about hundreds of hours worth of videos being uploaded to YouTube every minute. There is no way that you could hire enough people to review all of those as an example. So what we see now is an acceleration via this artificial intelligence type mechanism reviewing videos. We see our posts on Facebook, for instance, and you're having problems getting your advertising approved. BTW that is another reason to use iHeart to get your messages out, which I heard is also using AI to accept these ads. So, overall, this is the trend, it's going to be here it started before the whole Covid-19 virus thing. However, with many people quarantining, you can't find a laptop to buy anywhere in the known universe, because they are all gone. Many of these businesses now no longer have the workers that they used to have even. So they've turned more to artificial intelligence. That means that there are all kinds of false negatives about some of the stuff you're posting. Which means things you're posting may get blocked more often than usual. Things you post, videos you upload might not get approved. And this is an overall trend. You know, they call it artificial intelligence, Jim. But the way I've been looking at it is not even machine learning. It's just some heavy programming that looks for patterns looking for keywords that have been getting a little bit smarter as time goes on. It's not like, like in science fiction movies, where artificial intelligence becomes self-aware. It is. I mean, frankly, what Tommy be our meteorologist does with the models is a form of artificial intelligence because the models continue to learn. They adapt and regurgitate what they learn. They're not self-aware. They're not reasoning they're doing what we have programmed them to do. They're looking for pattern matches. That is what they're looking for, and you know what, with this coronavirus pandemic, the whole artificial intelligence pattern matching thing has been a huge win. We're able to run simulations. Not just against known drugs that a drug company might want to try but against basically every material and combination of materials and minerals and bacterium, etc., etc. Even those that we could even think of using. We can run the simulations inside these artificial bits of intelligence that have learned a little bit about these patterns. We see these types of vaccines and medications delivered in just an incredible time. Things that would take years are now taking hours literally, and we are moving towards the point very, very soon. We already have some of this where we will have drugs ready. These vaccines you name it made specifically for us. So there will be a Jim Polito pill the Jim Polito can take that will deal with all of the issues he has. That's all thanks to this artificial intelligence, this machine learning that's going on right now. Jim I don't think people want to take the Jim Polito pill, to be honest with you. I understand the metaphor there, Craig, but I just you know, nobody wants to be a middle-aged chubby and loudmouth and be stupid when it comes to tech, right. We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru. Artificial intelligence is a big tech gamble right now. His webinars, which you can sign up for from him, and at the end of his segment, and we're going to tell you how you can get all of this information from him. Jim Craig, if I could just shift back, again, to working from home. I know you're going to discuss this in the webinars, and in the short time we have left, could you give me kind of just a brief bit of some of the things that you've learned over the 22 years of working from home, not because you had to, but because it worked for you? Craig Yeah, it did. There are some basics that I have found work well for both my wife and I. Now I even have kids that work from home, too. In 22 years of working from home, the number one thing that I've learned is you have to have not just a separate space, but multiple separate areas. Most of us have various job functions that we're performing, and you need to have a different place for each job function, especially if you're kind of an entrepreneur or you're trying to start a home business. Now, this doesn't mean you have to have different rooms, don't get me wrong, but don't sit in that chair you use to watch TV. Or if you only have one chair, turn it around, and, you know, face a different window have different environments. That's number one. Number two is one that I found very, very helpful, and that is to use the Pomodoro Technique. We mentioned that last week, and that is to take 20 minutes and then a 10-minute break. So that you're very, very focused on it. You have to get up and walk around. I sit on a big balance ball, and I have a desk that goes up and down. I can be standing, and I can be sitting in a chair like I am right now. Or I can be on one of these balance balls. Because if you don't, and may not think of it but you have To get up, you have to keep moving. And then the third most important thing, again, not technology-wise, is that your family has to respect your workspace. Think of different ways you could do it. Most people, it's advised to dress up as you would usually for work. And if your family sees you in work clothes, they're supposed to leave you alone. But you know, the workaround I have on that that has worked exceptionally well for me, is when it's that break time when I've done my 20 minutes of hard work. Then a 10-minute break, I walk into the rest of the house, go to the kitchen, walk around, get a cup of water, and talk to the family. That way, they don't have to interrupt me when I'm working hard. And then the technology side, make sure you are safe, and I mean safe and so Friday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. I'm going to be talking specifically about some important security things you have to be doing in the webinars. And I've got right I'm doing two today to Thursday to on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, all the way through next week because I want to help everybody because these tech issues on security just get so complicated so fast. Still, those are my tips right there, and they have gotten me a long way. Jim I'll tell you, you know, the first day I did the show on the pajamas, but on the second day, I only thought about it. Now I'm up and dressed. You know, the thing is, I wear pretty much the same clothes to go to work that I do on the weekend. But no, I got up showered did the same thing that I would do. You know other than getting in the car and driving, everything I did was the same. I like you, take breaks during the commercials in our show when I don't have work to do. When I'm back in the studio, I walk around the building, you know I get out of the studio, and it refreshes my brain and resets it. Here it's perfect because I can get up from the table and the little broadcast area I have here. I can talk to Kathy, pet the dog, whatever, you know, that kind of stuff. It does help, but then I go back into the mode, and I'm in my little you know area here. It works. Look, it is time to get folks the immediate information. When I podcast, this will have a link, but you can give the link now to if you want. So, one thing to get on Craig's email list, you text My name Jim, J-I-M to this number. Craig Here 855-385-5563. So let's just Jim 2855385 5553 Jim All right, standard data and tax rates apply. Then, Craig, I'm going to put this with the podcast the address for the to be able to find out about the webinars you're doing for working at home. All right, there you go. It's Craig Peterson, of course. Craig Peterson dot com slash, Jim. Craig That's the only place you'll find it right now you guys are getting a heads up. You're going to be some of the first ones to be able to get in and ask questions. I am not advertising it generally right now. It's because I want to start small and help people as much as I can. Craig Peterson dot com slash Jim. Jim Craig, you're the best. We appreciate it. Especially in these times, folks you want to get on Craig's list. I don't mean the website. I mean, Craig Peterson, and if you can, attend some of those webinars. Craig, I will talk to you next week. Stay safe. Craig All right. Thanks. Take care. Bye-bye. Jim All right, and I will podcast that this morning. A final word when we return. You're listening to the Jim Polito show from my kitchen with pops. It is your safe space. The Jim Polito show, where we serve hot drinks. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome!  and Happy St. Patricks Day!  Hey everyone please go out and support your local businesses today by ordering St. Patrick Day meals.  Many were completely stocked for large crowds for this holiday and have terrific specials on these meals for take-out or delivery.   Good morning, everybody. I was on with Jim Polito who was sitting in his kitchen under self-quarantine because he recently traveled overseas. We discussed some of the ways people can make this new remote work, work for them and keep their employer safe. So, here we go with Jim Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig And you take a 10-minute break, and then you sit down again, set yourself another 20-minute goal, and get it done. It is amazingly effective. And I want people to think of social media a little bit differently when you're working from home. That 10-minute break. You could go on social media because that might be the only way you have contact with another person. There are some of my top tips Craig There are some of my top tips with Mr. Jim Polito this morning. You notice none of them had to do with security because I think the most significant issues people have when working from home, typically are the mental issues. So that's kind of what I went over with Jim this morning. If you want to attend one of my webinars, these free webinars I'm doing all week this week, probably into next week as well. Make sure you sign up go to Craig Peterson comm slash subscribe. By the way, Jim is just back From Italy in self-quarantine in his kitchen, it yeah, it Yeah, I don't want you to think about that too much. Okay, here we go. Unknown Speaker 1:12 Joining us now is our good friend and tech chalk guru, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Unknown Speaker 1:19 Hey, good morning, Jim. Yeah, I've been doing this work-at-home thing now for well over 20 years, and my wife and I have learned a lot of lessons. I've learned a lot of lessons about productivity and tools. And, of course, you mentioned the security side of it, which is a big deal. And so what I started doing this week is I started on Sunday, I held a kind of free for all webinar where I invited people to, and we spent a couple of hours together. In fact, in this webinar, we talked about people's situations. What the issues were. I'm going to be doing it again today. I think what I'm going to try and do is something at about three o'clock this afternoon, and then probably at about seven o'clock this evening, and I'll do it two or three more times this week, just going over what tools can help them. One of the tricks I've learned over the years? What do you need to worry about from a security standpoint? You know, when should you be using that laptop? When should you remote to a desktop at work? Why is the remote desktop one of the most prominent security exploits known to man? And how can you work around that? So obviously, Jim, as usual, this is just all for free. I'm not trying to, you know, beat you down and sell you something. If you want my services, that's fine. I'm even offering 15-minute calls with anybody that needs some tech support to help them try and figure stuff out, and all of that you can get Just go to my website that Craig Peterson dot com make sure you sign up there. It's on the homepage and every page. If you scroll down a little bit, you'll see a pop up at the top of the screen and just put your name and email address in there. As Jim's always telling everybody, I'm not one to spam you. But I do want to keep you guys informed. I am offering this for free. I have courses that you can buy that go into more depth, but I do take time to answer everyone's question during these webinars. I got a lot of great, positive feedback. Jim We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru. Now, Craig, what's probably the most important thing people should do while working from home. Now I know our company has set up, what are these VPNs and all this stuff? What's the most important thing people should do? Craig Well, also, as part of the webinar, I went into some details about why VPNs' can make it worse for you and your security for your business. So don't think that a VPN is a panacea. All those paid VPN Services that you hear advertised on the radio are not going to help you get into the office. They're designed to provide a little bit of security. But, in a more direct answer to your question, what's the most important thing? I think personally, with over 20 years of experience doing this, that it has to do with separation. So President Trump is right. You have to separate yourself from your usual living area if you can. All separating has to mean is something that's going to give you that psychological hint. That's going to help with your subconscious too. Okay, I'm sitting in this chair facing this direction in this part of the room. That helps a lot to train your body as to what you should be doing. Then you also need to get a whip and, and use that lightly on any family members that decide to walk-in because now look at mom and dad are home now so I can just walk in anytime and ask any question, right? In the honey-do list, I'm going both ways. So make sure they understand, hey, I'm working to leave me alone. Here's another thing that I found to be extremely helpful when working from home. And that is to use a technique that came from Italy. It's called the Pomodoro Technique. You might want to look that up that's Italian, very poorly pronounced on my part. Jim Italian for Tomato, and tomatoes are the best. Craig Yeah, exactly. Think about you and I, were younger, our moms had these kitchen timers shaped like tomatoes, or maybe you had an egg one. You twist the top of it, and it was a 30-minute timer. The Pomodoro technique is simple enough, and you set yourself a 15-minute or 20-minute goal. 20 -minute seems to be optimal, at least for me. Okay, I'm going to do this particular piece of research to get this part done, right. It's something you can do in 20 minutes. You set that timer and let it run for 20 minutes. When it goes off, the task over whether or not it is done. You finished that work for this time period. You can extend a little bit if you'd like to, but no more than about 10 minutes, get up and walk around. It is time to go and get your glass of water, to go and chat with the spouse or kids, whatever it might be. You take a 10-minute break, and then you set down again, set yourself another 20-minute goal, and get it done. It is amazingly effective. I want people to think of social media a little bit differently when you're working from home. That 10- minute break. You could go on social media because that might be the only way you have contact with another person if you're at home working alone. It's not necessarily an evil thing. Just make sure you don't get sucked into it. They design social media to be sticky and to keep you around. So those are the big ones. Also, again, if you're on my email list, just go to Craig Peterson dot com and sign up. I'll be going through the more technical side of working at home. What you can do, what you shouldn't do, to make working at home, work for you without creating problems not just for you, but security problems to the business's network. Jim All right, Craig, this is great. I know we wanted to touch on the coronavirus, not the virus itself, but I know included in the information you'll be sending to people. So you add my name to this number, Craig 855 385 5553. I'll be sending out a text to everybody on and texts today as well. Just text Jim to 855 385 5553 Jim Standard data and tax rates apply. As you know, Craig Peterson will always take care of you. He is a calm and reassuring voice and presence in all the chaos. Craig, Thank you so much. Well, Catch you next week. Craig Take care. Bye-bye. Jim All righty. Okay when we return Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt and we had a good discussion about how Coronaviruses were affecting businesses and Cisco's WebEx offer for collaborating securely.  We also talked about how Apple is tightening up the types of Apps that will be in their AppStore. Here we go with Ken and Matt. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig But particularly those that are in regulated or sensitive industries. Of course, we have those right down in the south of Maine, think of those in the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard where a lot of people work. Apple, because they are trying to be sensitive to all of these security needs are even tightening them up more for businesses that deal with this. The new standard for military contracts is the CMMC, and it is coming out in June. Craig Good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson, here. They have this "Eggs and Issues" thing over in Portland, which is kind of cool. In New Hampshire, we call it "Politics and Eggs" that happens every once in a while, but Eggs and Issues, seems to be I don't know monthly. Anyhow, Ken and Matt, were over there this morning and we had an excellent chance to chat about a couple of things. I wanted to cover in better detail, and I think I did a better job with Ken and Matt than I did yesterday on WTAG talking about Coronavirus, work from home issues, and also the Mandalorian. I took a little bit of a different angle on it, which is kind of ironic because we're talking about how they shot the video for the TV show. Matt Craig Peterson, our tech guru, joins us as he always does on Wednesdays at this time to go over the world of technology. Craig, welcome to the program. Craig Hey, good morning, gentlemen. Ken You know, it's rare where I see a topic from you that just excites me as much as talking about The Mandalorian. I mean, because we never talk about lifestyle issues here. So this is so exciting. How does the Mandalorian deal with tech issues, pray-tell? Craig That almost sounds sarcastic. Ken No No, no, we love the Mandalorian Craig Okay, okay. For those who don't know, the Mandalorian is a new science fiction series that's in the Star Wars universe released recently here by Industrial Light and Magic. It is a significant change in how movies they make movies. You've seen over the years, variations, of course, I was watching Hogan's Heroes the other day, and upfront, it said CBS in color. Ken and I both remember our first color televisions and things. And then moviemaking TV making moved into the world, of course, where we have greenscreens, and they use greenscreens when an actor is trying to talk to something that isn't there. Think of the Lord of the Rings movies for that one. It had Golem who was this character that was a guy, and they put these little like golf ball things on him so that computers could track his movement and the That was neat because they put this character in that was kind of there the actor could interact with this character. But the computers put in the actual figure ultimately. And then the complete green screens that we've seen more and more of where the only thing that the actor seizes, the table, the actor, city mat, or the chair that they're in, perhaps a couple of items scattered around the room, the whole rest of the room is green. And after all of the filming is done, and it's in production, they add in all the scenery, they said the room, they said everything else. Well, what they did was the Mandalorian is entirely different. They built this room, if you will, in a stage that was 21 by 75 feet, and it was entirely screens, digital screens all around them. The actors now saw everything going on around them. The cameras were shooting on the stage exactly what would end up being in the film, if you will, at the end? It's amazing. So the actors can see these virtual objects, the directors can see the objects. One of the things that were cool about this and I watched some video of it as the Mandalorian was filmed on this stage, is that the director could say, Hey, I don't like that building's placement, and change it right there almost instantly, and move things around. Everything on the screens is dependent on the camera angles. Think about all the incredible mathematics involved in this type of production. If you look at this stage, with the naked eye, you'd see all kinds of mess and distortions in some cases. Still, the camera was seeing everything perfect. They also use these LED panels that were displaying everything to provide excellent lighting. And they had an iPad that was there, and they were able to move the lights around, brighten this up dim that up. It usually would take out a whole bunch of time. The specific names for these people are gaffers, and they are responsible for moving and setting up lights. No need for any of those people. Amazing. The crews, the director, all of the creative people, all of these subdirectories could be more flexible in production, try different approaches, and do it almost instantly. And they did all of this using video game technology. It is absolutely the future. It's going to cut production costs a lot and increase the quality of production. It's just amazing, mainly if you saw the Mandalorian. It's just a whole new thing that came right out of Industrial Light and Magic. Matt We are talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru, who joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, I don't think we can get around asking you a coronavirus question, and I did notice that Cisco is telling you to use WebEx stay at home. Don't go to those meetings. Use WebEx. Craig Yeah. Now I've got to say Cisco is something that I sell and use, but it is the only, believe me, conferencing teamwork application available, but is secure. Zoom is a very, very popular one. I'm sure a lot of people use it. I've even used it. Continue to use it off and on with people that only have the availability of zoom. But the zoom has had some major security problems. And I don't mean like a breach. I mean, what ad is designed this because it allowed direct access into your networks at the office for hackers and viruses and everything else. So all those who may be one of the easier ones to use, it is not one of the safer ones. Also, with something like WebEx, you get the advantage of the team collaboration. So obviously, I'm a proponent. You can tell by the way I'm talking about it. It just works, and it's now free due to the Coronavirus as many businesses are having people work at home. It's free for companies to use. So seriously, consider using something like this. I've used slack before, which is pretty good. But again, it's not a secure end to end platform. WebEx, I think, is the hands-down winner. A lot of businesses are going to be looking at VPN. two factor authentication tokens are something that we've talked about on the show before. Now's the time you should be using them. I've got to say, if you want to know more, I do webinars where I cover these things all the time. They are 100% completely free, not trying to sell you anything, and I've got some coming up. I'm going to try and do webinars on Thursday, Friday, and Sunday, on how to work safely from home. We're probably going to have them not just for an end-user, but also for small businesses. I teach people how they can use self-service portals to make their life a little bit easier so that the people who are trying to work from home can kind of set things up themselves and what are the pros and cons. We're putting together a little playbook, all of this stuff. I hope to get you to the point where you can work from home relatively safely. Still, I do like WebEx. I have used zoom, and it's a reasonable alternative if you're not worried about some of the significant security errors that have been made by the designers of zoom. Ken We're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru. You can always go to Craig Peterson dot com by the way if you want to get all of this information also you can hear him on Saturdays at one o'clock on WGAN. Yeah. Um, so I'm a big user of Apple's App Store because I like apps. I understand they have a new policy to fight spam and abuse. But there some negatives to that? Craig Yeah, there, there always are some negatives. I think the pros outweigh them, however. We talked about how Google just got rid of basically millions of apps if you will. The Google Chrome Store, they just got rid of apps that people downloaded millions of times because they were spying on people and uploading the information. They got rid of those in the Google Play Store, which by the way, again, is a reason only to use the official app stores from Android. Of course, it's the Google Play Store, and for iOS, it's the Apple App Store. What Apple's done now is they've tightened up the review guidelines, because Apple reviews every app that's on the store, to help make sure that they're safe. They, of course, require apps to meet the guidelines, right. But there, they've expanded the definition of a BAM app. In other words, apps that are using the push notifications to serve ads to users, and they're limiting this the submissions of these types of apps, to trusted organizations, etc. but particularly those that are in regulated or sensitive industries. Of course, we have those right down types of industries right here in southern Maine. Think of Portsmouth Naval Shipyard where a lot of people work. Apple, because they are trying to be sensitive to all of these security needs, is even tightening them up more for businesses that deal with this. It's now called CMMC. It's the new standard coming out in June for military-affiliated companies. Anyways, there's a little bit of controversy here. But I think, ultimately, Ken, things are going to be good. It is an excellent thing. And I'll be talking more about this and VPN stuff, working from home as well. This weekend. If you want to sign up for the courses. Go to Craig Peterson dot com you can sign up right there on the homepage or any page, just sign up for my mailing list, and I'll make sure you know about them, and I'll talk more about this on Saturday. At 1 pm right here. Matt Indeed that is Craig Peterson. Ladies gentlemen. He is our tech guru, and he joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over the world of technology. Craig, thank you as always, and we will talk to you again next week, sir. Craig Gentlemen, thank you very much. Bye Bye. Thanks. All right. Ken All right, we will take a quick break here. We will go into the newsroom. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Steve Fornier who was sitting in for the vacationing Jim Polito this morning. We discussed a some of the new technology being used in the film industry that is coming from the gaming sector and the new LED soundstages and the difference that is making for actors and filmmakers. Then we discussed the Coronavirus and remote work and online education. So, here we go with Steve Fornier. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Allowing them onto the Business Network, which now gives bad guys access to all of the personal information, intellectual property, and everything else that's sitting there on that corporate network. There are so many issues with this. Craig Good morning. Craig Peterson here. Mr. Jim Polito is out touring Ireland right now. He called in to the show this morning, saying that all of the St. Patrick's Day parades in Ireland have been canceled. We know that they canceled our local parade in Boston, which is one of the biggest in the country, and I think New York City, which might be the most prominent St. Patrick's Day parade, as well. He was telling us a little bit about the difference between the Irish marches and the parades here in the US and Boston. Well, of course, the Irish ones tend to be a little bit more Catholic. Ours tend to be a little less religious. Anyhow, I was on Steve Fornier, he's the producer over in Springfield on those iHeart stations. We talked a little about two things. First of all, some very cool new technology for moviemaking and then a bit about working from home with the Coronavirus. That's right. So here we go with Steve. Steve Tech Talk's Craig Peterson in the house, and I don't know if I've ever actually had the pleasure, so this would be great. It's Steve Fornier, how are you doing today? Craig Doing well. How are you doing, Steve? Hey, you are doing a great job, by the way. Steve Hey, thanks I am trying Craig I think we met sideways once or twice, and I think you were on with Jim, and he had you kind of jump in, so yeah, man. I believe we have met. Steve Yeah, that's they usually just like to keep me out on the side. Let me out of my cage, now and again. Let's talk about movies. Because I haven't seen the Mandalorian, but I do remember the day, maybe the PlayStation two time frame where they started putting movies into video games. I thought that was the coolest thing. Now it seems like they're shooting movies with video game technology. Can you tell us a little bit about that process? Craig Yeah, this is cool. I remember the very first movie they shot using almost entirely green screens. That's been the way it's been for quite a while now. So what will happen is, let's say that there's a desk and a chair, maybe some flowers and one or two other things in the room, those will be real. Then the whole rest of the set is green. You know, think of movies like Jack Black's King Kong, right, Steve? So there he's trying to pretend, and he imagines what's all around him, you know, the jungle scene, the King Kong himself, right, all of these other things. They may get to interact with another actor, but for many, that's not necessarily even the case. And that makes it difficult for actors. It makes it difficult for the director, the production staff, there's remember, there's not just even one director, there's somebody who's in charge of the found somebody who's in charge of the lighting of the cameras, the camera angles, etc. Steve Well, Michael Jordan, I always give him credit because he's not an actor. But in Space Jam, he had to act with a bunch of cartoons. I bet Bugs Bunny was not standing there on stage next to Michael Jordan. He's not on set. Craig Yeah, but what they do for Michael Jordan in that movie in Space Jam. They had little puppets on sticks that they move around, so he kind of know where to look what to do. Then they remove them afterward. They're not like full puppets but little green things on a stick, right. The Mandalorian, which is quite a good show. It is slower-paced than many. Think of it like Breaking Bad in a movie. They shoot the Mandalorian using an entirely whole new technology in a soundstage. As we've been talking about with green screens and such. Television screens surround the soundstage. The roof was all screens though all Walls are screens. Everything covered with screens. As you mentioned here, Steve, this is using some of the technology from video games. It is amazing. So there's the actor on an LED set, and he can see all of the backgrounds. Nothing is greenscreen. It is a whole new change and an entirely different way of doing it. Steve I would like to take a vacation in one of these things. Just plop me in that thing with a chair and put on a beautiful Sunset over seascape and let me hang out on that thing for three days. That sounds fantastic. Yeah. Craig Like a holodeck, right on Star Trek. Are you familiar with that? Steve Oh, yeah, of course, of course. But I have to assume from an editing perspective, that it makes it a lot easier to edit because it would reduce the process. The time it takes with the green screens removing puppets inserting the characters. I imagine on the back end of things it's got to make the production faster. Craig What surprised me was looking at an article with pictures of the whole stage, including the cameras. Now, remember, again, the camera director and the film director and everybody can see what's going on, which is enormous. And they are in real-time said you know what? That building there in the background is distracting. Let's move it over as though it's 50 feet to the right. Wow. And they were able to do it right then. Right live. The other thing that surprised me about it was that if you look at it with your regular eyes, it seems severely distorted. I mean, like the straight line isn't necessarily straight, right it can be going off in all kinds of weird angles, some of them are curved, and it's all rendered based on what the camera sees and what the camera is seeing. So the camera sees everything correctly. The actors can see what's around them. They can even see the horizon. They can see the sunrise. They can see the bad guys coming at them. They're not there, but now they have something to act around. It's like a 75-foot long set 21 feet tall, and it is impressive. So expect this to be used more and more in the future. It can be the deck of a ship that can be the middle of a desert. It can be anywhere it can be your vacation with Jim right now over in Italy, right? You go to one of these. Steve Yeah, it could be the next video game at Disney World where you're in one of these things, and you got stormtroopers coming at you, and you can use lightsabers and do all kinds of stuff. It sounds like all kinds of different use. Yeah. Craig Very cool. Steve Yeah, we're talking with Craig Peterson, our tech guru, and you know, let's move on here to the Coronavirus. At the same time, we still have time here, Craig, because everybody's telling their employees just work from home, don't bother coming in, take your work laptop, go home, set it up, connect to the VPN, and we'll do everything remotely. But when everybody's doing that, it is taxing the World Wide Web in general. Craig Yeah, I have training coming up tomorrow. I'm going to repeat this a couple of times because I think it's essential. We're going to do a webinar on working from home because there are so many things people in Businesses just don't understand. And I've been shocked to see what some of them even slightly larger businesses are doing. Working from home is a whole different world. You've got your home computer that might not have patches installed. It probably isn't patched up to date, right? So you have security issues there. Many businesses have people VPN into the office. That can allow that potentially infected home computer or another computer on the network, and it's enabling them onto the Business Network, which now gives bad guys access to all of the personal information and intellectual property and everything else that's sitting there on that corporate network. There are so many issues with this. So I'm going to go through and explain what some of the better ways to do it are. When should you use a VPN? What kind of VPN should you use? And when should you Just try and remote to your desktop that works? What are the pros and cons of that? What kind of people can do that? Or can't do it. I'm going to go through the critical approaches that tactics and tools to get the most from remote work. And if you want to know about this, just go right now to Craig Peterson dot com if you sign up, it comes up on the top of the screen sign up for my mailing list. I'll be sending out an email later today. But this whole trend of working from home, Steve, I think is going to stick because of the aside the myriad of security problems. Yeah. That I think companies are going to have Steve, though. The bottom line is that as a rule, people are more productive working at home. They get more done in the people love it. Right who likes to get stuck in a traffic jam, right? Steve Oh, yeah, I mean, look, I gotta I buzz through. Have concocted a little radio studio in the basement, you know, because I'd rather have to if I'm an emergency do stuff from home than have to, you know, it's a short drive, but have to have it in here and do it, you know? Craig Yeah, it's, I think it's a great environment for most people. And most of the time at work, people are wasting money. Of course, you can make money in the meantime. Of course, you can waste-time at home, right? Get sucked into Facebook or something that you don't want to do. But there are tools for that as well. I use a few. We know we could talk about those. Because these are going to be live webinars. I'll answer everybody's questions. But it is, I think, going to change the economy, this Coronavirus, not not the virus itself, but the panic that's ensued. And so many employers have not tried to have people work at home. They haven't tried to use these digital collaboration systems, which we'll also talk about what they haven't tried to use. We don't things like zoom or WebEx, by the way, zoom, extremely unsafe, very poorly designed versus WebEx. You know, some of these things like, like WebEx has its teams, the same thing people use slack for, etc. We will cover all of those you understand it, and that's the point, Steve, I don't think most businesses have looked into these seriously enough as they grow in popularity. There are businesses, I think, Steve, that we are going to see some significant improvements in productivity, and they're just going to let more and more employees work at home. However, IBM last year pulled back on the whole work at home thing. IBM found for them, anyway, it was more important to have people bump into each other in the hallways and have an impromptu discussion than to have everybody really kind of siloed away. Unknown Speaker 11:57 Real quick, Craig. While I have you on that same topic. Let's talk about college campuses because we're seeing her in Mass colleges sending everybody home and saying work online. Is this the kind of thing that I mean, we've seen a lot of these universities trend online? If there are going to be campuses shutting down for periods, and we know how expensive colleges is, is it something that we could see trending in the college environment? Craig Yeah, it already is. Steve, we're seeing colleges that are now 100% online, and are doing very well. Two of my kids got their MBAs almost entirely remotely, and it's worked out very well for them. So yeah, watch out colleges, with your big fancy campuses and high tuitions. They are getting threatened. Steve, I think it's going to make a big difference. Steve Yeah, Craig, we get it. You have smart kids. Thanks for rubbing it in. I know. If you want to take part in that webinar tomorrow, which btw, sounds fascinating, and I feel like I need to be a part of that. I go home and fire up that VPN, and I don't pay any attention to it, and I probably should. If you want more information like this, from Craig, you can text My name Steve to this number? Craig You can text Steve 855-385-5553, or you can email me anytime with a question. Just meet me at Craig Peterson dot com or text Steve to 855 385 5553. Steve Excellent. Standard data and text rates apply. Again, Craig doesn't bother you or anything, but he does give you the updated stuff. I mean, still, everyone everywhere in all departments and all facets of life is trying to adjust to this Coronavirus. Craig is this staying ahead of it in his line of work. So we appreciate that Craig, thanks for the time as always, and we'll catch up next week. Craig Hey, take care of Steve. Thanks again. Craig It is happening. Keep an eye out on your email Wednesday. I'm planning on having one of these at four, and I may try and do one in the evening as well on Wednesday and then another one Thursday. Watch for my emails today. Take everybody, talk to you tomorrow. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Marty (who was sitting in for Matt.) We had a good discussion Setting up a new computer and How you can protect yourself from Ransomware. Here we go with Ken and Marty. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig John McAfee, here's the guy that started the Anti-Virus movement by many arguments, saying, our software is useless. Don't buy it. Craig Hey, I was on with it was Marty this morning in place of Matt and Ken Altshuler, and of course, yesterday was the big election day in Maine on Super Tuesday. We didn't talk about that, really because we spoke about Marty's new computer and what you should do with a new computer, so I gave him the advice that I give all of my employees. It is what we do when you get a brand new computing device. Ken Well, now Craig Peterson is on. How are you? Craig Hey, good. Yeah, blame it on rank choice voting, I think. Marty So everybody's second choice. Ken Let's start talking about ransomware, shall we? I mean, so does ransomware work? Do people pay ransoms? Craig You'd have to ask the question, right? How Does it still work? Ransomware has been around for two years. Well, it goes back further than that. It was two years ago certainly had the vast, huge, massive hit on ransoms. That has brought down multinational companies for weeks, in some cases, very, very big deal. It's kind of fallen off. People aren't thinking much about it anymore. They're not protecting themselves. Now we've got this warning that's come out about ransomware. It is back with a vengeance. Kind of what you alluded to here, Ken has happened. We're no longer just seeing ransomware encrypting our data. What's happening now is ransomware gets onto your computer, and it's a whole new generation. What it does now is it starts poking around your computer, looking for Word documents, looking for your spreadsheets, and in your case, I think it would be what Word Perfect documents. Ken Word Perfect. The best word processing program ever made. Oh, all the legal guys like eight and a half by 14 and all that. Craig Yeah, yeah, exactly. It looks for those, and then it sends them back to the bad guys. Then the bad guys have a look at them and say, Okay, is there any real value here might there be something else on that computer? Can we spread laterally throughout the organization? Then they will hop on your computer unbeknownst to you because your laptop called home when it got this new kind of Once they've got all of the data off your computer that they want, then they probably will encrypt all of your data for the heck of it. They will put a ransom up on your screen. Now what they're doing, and this is up dramatically now we're talking about more than seven and a half billion dollars here in the US ransomware the last couple of years. What they're doing now is they're saying, Hey, I'll pay up Ken, or we're going to release all of your client files, even though nobody can read the WordPerfect files anymore. All of your client files to the internet, all of your personal information, your trade secrets, intellectual property, pay up, or else. The FBI is warning about this increase in is a new type of ransomware. It grew by 100% over the last two quarters. It is getting dramatic is getting out of control. What people need to do here is to protect themselves. Backups. However, having backups would help with the encryption, right? Because you can restore your files from the backup. But, it's not going to help with the, "Hey, we're going to release all of your information if you don't pay up." We have to start doing penetration tests on our systems, making sure that they're relatively safe. I'm going to have some training on that coming up. Starting next week, on some of the things you can do just some free training. Absolutely. I'm not selling anything in this course, right. I do have some classes for sale, but I'm trying to help out because, man alive there is some nasty stuff happening right now to home users, as well. It's the businesses that are more likely to pay this type of violence. What Jack Sparrow type of ransom. Yeah, that's something we don't want. I hope people will, will take advantage of that and avoid that in their business. Marty So Craig Marty here. A question that just came up for me at my nonprofit ET-tech is that we just bought a new HP laptop and it has McAfee antivirus on it now. I hate that program, to be frank. It takes forever. And I've said to my staff, and we don't need that. Whatever comes with Windows Windows Defender is fine. Delete McAfee. Was that the right call? Craig Oh, Marty, Marty. Marty. You're right. Here's the dirty secret right now when it comes to antivirus software. It is 100% ineffective, 100% useless when it comes to these modern types of attacks. When you're talking about McAfee, Norton, it's just mind-blowing here. John McAfee has a video out on YouTube that you can watch anytime you'd like. We're here. Here's John McAfee. The guy that started the industry by many arguments, saying, our software is useless. Don't buy it. Right. Oh, he doesn't own the company anymore, but that's what he's saying. You've got one of the top people over at Symantec Norton. There, I think he was VP of Marketing, if I remember right, getting caught saying at any event here after a couple of drinks, that their software is useless, and of course, losing his job shortly after that. The antivirus software industry is trying to mess with us. Frankly, now that McAfee probably paid about $2 to Microsoft or, in this case, HP is more likely about two bucks HP to have their software installed on your computer because they hope you're just going to go ahead and do it. So here are the basics of what you're going to do. It ties in with these tutorials that I'm going to have in the next few weeks because the right thing to do is get rid of all of that kind of extortion where they get onto your computer when you buy it new. So the first thing I do, Marty is a completely erase the computer, I mean, completely reformat the disk, and reinstall Windows without all that extra crap on it. And then, I turned on Windows Defender and made sure it's turned on and make sure you turn on automatic updates. Then I go in and configure Windows Firewall because, for some reason, Microsoft shipped it with a firewall. Yet the way they have everything turned on makes the firewall almost entirely useless, which drives me crazy. There's a configuration that you have to do on that, and I'll be talking about that a little bit if you listen to my show on Saturday at one o'clock I'll be starting to talk about these things. Next week, I'm going to have a lot more, but one o'clock every Saturday, by the way. So, Marty, you are right, you are going to get a lot of defense, just by turning on Windows Defender. I would also advise that you to use OpenDNS or Umbrella, you can use a free version, and there's a paid version that is going to stop this type of ransomware we just talked about. Right there with the OpenDNS, even the free version. For my customers, I use the commercial version, which I sell to them and support them. That's number one. There are several other things you should do to try and keep your computers safe. I'm going to go through step-by-step what to do and how to turn all these things on. On the browsers, you can turn on a few different things. You're going to want to have Ghostery on there, you're going to have Ublock Origin on there, and you are also going to have Privacy Badger on there. Those are few things that I'll be talking about in these webinars coming up and showing you guys exactly what to do and how to do it. Marty We are talking to our tech guru Craig who joins us every Wednesday at 730. Let's go to Shark Tank. One of the judges or sharks of Shark Tank lost, for $200,000, which kind of drop in the bucket for me, but probably hurt her a little bit, but then got it back. Yeah. How did she get it back is my question because the FBI warns you that you're not getting that money back? Craig Yeah, ever. It's gone. They're saying that, after 90 seconds, the money is out of the country, which is true, in this case, as well. And what happened is this is a business email compromise here real quick. And there was a bad guy who did a little bit of research on Barbara Cochran, who is this one of these Investors over in Shark Tank. They found out who her assistant is. They found out who her bookkeeper is. And they sent some fake emails and the bookkeeper wired some money 388,000 bucks to a bank over in Germany based on the email. The big mistake on the bookkeeper's part was that the bookkeeper responded to the email asking for the money to be wired. The email address of the assistant was one character off. So they just kind of faked it. Then they found out about it because when the bookkeeper wired the money. The bookkeeper forwarded the wire confirmation to the assistant using the correct email address. The assistant said what the heck's going on here, called the bank immediately, and was able to get the German bank to freeze the account before it got wired out in this case, to China. Usually, it's Eastern European countries that have people that are doing this, but in this case, it was China. Surprisingly enough, Barbara Corcoran got back all of her money minus wire fees from his from this bank over in Germany. And you're right can this like never happens you never get your money back. Yeah, I was shocked about it. I mean, that was unbelievable. Yeah, it was shocking to her too. So be careful on these emails. Always confirm with a phone call. You know, use it. Just stop and think about what would do? Well, ten certainly would not send an email you never get. He gets his dial phone, their rotary phone, and he would call someone, and that's what you should do. You know this, this new tech is terrific. But in reality, pay close, close attention, particularly when it comes to stuff like this. I've worked with companies that have had all of their money stolen, and we worked with the FBI to start investigations for them. Although they will investigate, you never get your money back, right. Ken Craig Peterson, our tech guru, joining us as he does every Wednesday. Thank you so much, Craig. Appreciate it. We'll talk to you next week. Craig Thanks, guys. Bye-bye. Ken Okay. All right. Let's get CBS News and when we come back Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed a one-second mistake that can cost millions - Business Email Compromise. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Millions transferred electronically. I have a copy of the email in front of me right now I'm looking at it. It seems like it's from a German company. Supposedly, it's for some renovations in the building. It is what scammers do. They look at you, and they look at your business, they looked at what would be a kind of typical ask for your business. In this case, that's what they did. They knew Barbara, and they found out who her executive assistant is and what the executive assistant email address is, who bookkeeper is, and the bookkeeper's email addresses. Craig Good morning, everybody. It is something that really could happen. It happened to Barbara, and I don't want to happen to you. So listen in as we go through some details. I hope again that this is going to help you from becoming a victim. Jim Here he is. He is our tech talk guru, and he is our good friend, and it's great to have him on our side. I'm talking about Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Good morning, Mr. James. Jim How are you, buddy? Craig I'm doing great. I'm excited. Today's Super Tuesday. Maybe Finally we can finalize of this stuff today. Well, I don't know. Jim I think we're heading into a brokered convention. But we'll see. We'll see. But I wanted to start with you today with something exciting. My wife is a big fan of Shark Tank. I understand that one of the sharks got tanked out of $400,000 and didn't have any equity in that $400,000 Craig Oh man, I wonder what trades you made. Yeah. It is an example of what, Jim, you and I have talked about for how long now? It is the whole concept of business email compromise. Jim Yeah, you have said, it happens to the smaller businesses too. That is the weak point, the weak link in the chain, and they are more susceptible to the hacks. Craig They are. There tends to be less training for the employees. One of the most significant risks you have, and I've seen people who've analyzed this who stay maybe 80% of a company's risk. One of the most significant risks out there is our employees. It's our not typically lower-paid, but not necessarily, who will click on stuff. Now this story about Barbara is interesting. Barbara Corcoran is one of these investors over there on Shark Tank. She's a big-time real estate investor. That's what she's been doing forever. That's how she made her money. It's interesting to read through what happened, and this one, Jim, it did have a happy ending. We typically don't see this at all. There was an invoice that forwarded to her bookkeeper that supposedly came from her executive assistant. Now, there was one minor difference here. Maybe the bookkeeper should have noticed. There was one character different in the email address that sent it. Jim So, a difference you've taught us about this before? Craig Yeah, exactly. The scammer posing as her executive assistant, forwarded this fake invoice earlier last week, requesting that a payment of $388,700 and 11 cents be transferred electronically. I have a copy of the email in front of me right now I'm looking at it. It seems like it's from a German company. Supposedly, it's for some renovations in the building. It is what scammers do. They look at you, and they look at your business, they looked at what would be a kind of typical ask for your business. In this case, that's what they did. They knew Barbara, and they found out who her executive assistant is and what the executive assistant email address is, who bookkeeper is, and the bookkeeper's email addresses. Now, you know, Jim, it's pretty easy to find most of this stuff out. It was interesting to me that I sat down with the FBI because we had pulled them in on an investigation where we found that some criminal activities going on against a small local company. They have eight employees. I sat down with the FBI. The first thing the FBI did when I did the report was they went to my website, my business website. They just tried to find out the lay of the land? Who are the people that work there? Who are the executives who are the accountants? You know, they were impressed because I didn't have any of it on my website. If you go to @mainstream.net, you'll see that under who works here, who are executives are it says due to security concerns, we don't post any of it. Yeah, exactly. But you know, what people do, right? Look at your website, or Facebook, Jim All that information is right there. Craig Now, what do we give out? Then when talking about Facebook, but you and I mentioned our wives on our Facebook page. Yeah, you and I know, well, I think both of us know not to say, Hey, I'm going to Italy. I'm going to Ireland. Next week, although obviously in your case, yeah, you're tied in with the business. Yeah. Typically, we don't mention anything like that until after the fact, so right here, that means we are relatively safe. In this case, what happened is they invested what probably amounted to 10 or 20 hours doing some research. It was thought that they're probably from Eastern Europe will tell you what happened here specifically. Jim Big surprise, Eastern Europe. What a big surprise. Craig Yeah, exactly. And 400 grand How long will that last? You know, if you're in a country where the average person makes five grand a year, do a little mental math on that. That's going to last you and your family for a long time. For what? Divide that 400,000 by 20 hours, how much an hour? That's a nice payday. It is. Barbara said, Hey, listen, when talking to experts, I'm not counting on getting me this money back. She had an excellent attitude about this whole thing because, indeed, her accountant did wire it. How they found out about this was that when the accountant wired the money, the accountant CC'ed the executive assistant, and using the correct address. Okay, so initially, the bookkeeper just replied to the email from the scammers thinking it was the legitimate executive assistant, and she wires the money. After wiring the money, she copies the real address of executive assistant who says wait a minute, hold-on now, let's stop this. People, when this happens, you don't get your money back. The FBI says it's 90 seconds. It's 90 seconds from the time that they get that wired money that it is out of the country. And pretty much gone. Jim 90 seconds. It just reminds me of like, what was that movie? Craig Gone 90 seconds. Yeah. Like, boom, there it is. You can watch it go by on the computer screen. Jim That's it. I like to think that Steve McQueen's version was better than the remake of Nicolas Cage. Yeah. Craig Yeah, exactly. So here's the good news and the weird news, it never happened. They were able to contact the bank that the bookkeeper had wired the money to, and they responded quickly, right? So the German bank was able to freeze the funds in the account. Before the scammer knew it was in the account and transferred it out. Here's where it was going. In this case, it was going to China. Jim Oh, so it wasn't our friends in Eastern Europe. Craig It wasn't in this case, and it is not common, it was China. It makes you kind of wonder who in China? Much of the criminal activity in China is, of course, sponsored by their socialist government. So here's the bottom line. One hundred fourteen thousand people reported being a victim of this type of scam last year. We're talking 10s of millions of dollars in losses. According to the FBI's internet crime report. It is huge. It is a common way hackers are going after you. If it is in China or Eastern Europe, do you know who the next most person probably knows? Jim Right, it's your roommate. It's someone you know, who's going to hack. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, we're talking with Craig Peterson, Tech Talk guru, and at the end will tell you how you can get more information from him. Craig, you know what, before we run out of time, I want to talk about this because it caught my fancy here, this VHS vault? Pretty, pretty good idea. Why don't you explain it to everyone? Craig Yeah, there's a web service out there that, when started, was called the Wayback Machine. Now it's called archive.org. It is the coolest thing ever. I go on there, and I looked at old versions of my website. One time, I lost my website, and the Wayback Machine had a copy of it. It clones all of the websites, and you can go back to your favorite website and look at it as it evolved over now decades. And they got this cool new thing that you just mentioned, which is what's called the VHS vault. And if you go org, you'll see they have several different types of vaults there are. I use this one all the time where there are these ink drawings. Yeah, the 1800s of patent pictures and other things, and they've got them all there. But the VHS vault as of right now has 20,701 videos in there. And these are old VHS tapes from the years gone by some of them back, not the tapes, but the content in 1922. And wow, you can watch it in its original brilliant 480 lines if you're lucky, worth of resolution right. None of it is the stuff that you can generally find out there. It is such a cool flashback right near the top. The Beatles Let it be, and the original 35 millimeter was you know, put up there, and They're in their collection. It's called the VHS vault. You'll find it and all this other cool stuff at archive.org Jim Sounds pretty cool. All right, Craig, they can find more. And when I mean they I mean our audience, if they text My name to this number Craig 855-385-5553. Text Jim to 855-385-5553 Jim Standard data and text rates apply, Craig Peterson will provide you with updates. There's no charge for this. He won't try to sell you anything, and he won't hack you, Craig, thanks so much. We look forward to talking with you next week. Unknown Speaker 12:41 Take care, Jim. Bye-bye. All right, a final word about Hillary Clinton. When we return, you're listening to the Jim Polito show, your safe space. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed the Coronavirus, Covid-19 and its spread and how Technology is helping and hurting. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig A scammer posed as her executive assistant and forwarded the bookkeeper for Corcoran an invoice earlier last week requesting payment of over $388,000 to a company over in Germany. As it turns out that the email was not from the executive assistant to the bookkeeper but a scammer. The bookkeeper, not carefully checking the email, went ahead and paid the invoice, and Barbara lost 400 grand that she says she'll never be able to get back. Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson, here. I was on with Jack Heath all over New Hampshire, also parts of Maine and, of course, Vermont and Mass. It is a northeast-wide show, and we talked about the Coronavirus, some of my experience as an EMT with some advanced certifications back in the day. The things I think are going to happen this year, and how it will affect businesses and individuals between As the scammers are using it too. Jack Right now, Craig Peterson, our tech talk guy, joins us live now on the Autofair listener line. Good morning, Craig. Craig Good morning, jack. Jack Well, I have asked you before can technology will help us here a little bit. What's on your docket this morning? Craig Yeah, there's a couple of interesting technology things. You know, for about a decade, I was a volunteer in emergency medicine, and I had some advanced certifications, I remember some of these prior diseases pretty darn well. We were concerned about what we should do back then. It was about 15 years ago, we knew that we needed to take some extra precautions, and we did. We weren't running around with face masks during SARS and h1n1 because we understood back then what caused the transmission and what we needed to do. You're correct about washing your hands. There's warning that even if you are wearing a face mask, most of them are just dust rated. Dust rated face masks, after a few hours, will be full of moisture coming up from your lungs and can transmit through that face mask. If you keep it around longer, the viral strand can make you sick. So yeah, do be a little cautious. I think we're going to see a lot fewer just general cases of the flu this year too. As we're going to be a lot more conscious than we have been in years past about washing hands and not touching your face. And the reason you watch him every time you go to the bathroom isn't so much that necessarily you're handling anything dirty in the bathroom, but most people go to the toilet a few times a day. So it's a good time to wash your hands. It is a way to help you remember to do it. It's kind of like changing the batteries in your fire alarms when the clock changes, which of course, is coming up soon. Yeah, it's just a good little reminder to do it. Speaking of reminders, There's something that just happened. The Barbara Corcoran, you might know her she's one of the investors over on Shark Tank. Big, big time into real estate. It is a warning is for pretty much anybody with email, which is everybody. She lost nearly $400,000 here just a couple of weeks ago to one of these business email scams that the FBI has issued warnings against. This scammer posed as her executive assistant and forwarded the bookkeeper for Corcoran an invoice earlier last week requesting payment of over $388,000 to accompany over in Germany. As it turns out that the email was not from the executive assistant to the bookkeeper but a scammer. The bookkeeper, not carefully checking the email, went ahead and paid the invoice, and Barbara lost 400 grand that she says she'll never be able to get back. So be very careful. The FBI is warning about these BEC scams. They're up big time. Ransomware is back with a vengeance. Jack, a lot of it is coming in emails that looked like they are talking about the Coronavirus and giving you some advice, some tips on the spread and things. So be very, very careful. We're all interested in it, and we all want to know more. Well, many of the scammers understand that when we get a little emotional, we are more susceptible and vulnerable. It might look like something, unfortunately, when that happens. That's a good example. With this person on Shark Tank. It just gives the scumbags the scammers more motivation like Oh, we got almost $400,000. All they need is one or two victims to make this worth it, right. To make it work not just for them, but for the whole family, $400,000 in Eastern Europe will support an entire family for maybe even a decade, depending on where they live. So for them, it's a lot of money. It's well worth the effort. For us. I have seen businesses whose operating accounts have been emptied by these types of scams. So be careful. You've got this scam, and we got the other ones around the Covid-19 that are giving us ransomware. Now even backups aren't good enough for ransomware anymore because they're holding our data hostage. Saying we will release this data, your intellectual property, the personally identifiable information that you have, will release it to the world if you don't pay us. The scammers are taking advantage of this Coronavirus. Jack We are talking to Craig Peterson here. He is at Craig Peterson, dot com. Thank you, Craig. Of course, Justin, I still want to know who the folks are behind the one where that says you have, a distant, distant relative you didn't know you're related to in Africa who has passed away. You can get in on the $19 million inheritance if you help them, you know, be the executor of the estate and help them and explain that you'll get your fair share. People believe that. I don't Justin I don't need relatives in Nigeria to scam me. I got ones right here and a handful. Why is it always someone from Nigeria? Craig Nigerian prince, Jack. The Nigerian prince scams were coming from Nigeria Believe it or not, and you still see them every once in a while the Nigerians were the original online scammers with these email scams. I made a lot of money over the years, and I knew quite a bit about it because I got involved I designed a system to stop the Nigerian scam way back when, Yeah, that was me. Anyhow, we've got more coming up for you this coming week. We think it's going to be next week these new tutorials we're putting together. Once you're done, with locking-down any Windows or Mac computer yourself, you can lock down your small business network, and you can be able to stop worrying about being a victim of the bad guys. All of that is coming up in the next few weeks ahead. There's a lot to be able to do here. So anyhow, we're so excited about it. We want to help you out with this because I know as a business guy, how it almost destroyed my business getting hacked. And I've spent years trying to figure out what the right way to do this is so that you don't have to that's coming up probably next week, Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe, make sure you're on my email list. All right, everybody, take care. We will be chatting again tomorrow. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome!   We are going to hit a number of topics today from the world of Technology and I have a special guest today who will discuss a subject close that I feel is important for my listeners as well. We are going to talk about some of the dangers of using the cloud and why you need to be careful. Passphrases beat Passwords, Malware on Macs, Ransomware, Cloud Liability and How Big Tech is taking advantage of our kids.   For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: Businesses in Danger: Data Transfer between Cloud Apps Passwords: Length trumps Complexity Businesses Must Understand The Intricacies of Cloud Security Malware on Macs: Not as Bad as the Headlines Might Lead You to Believe Businesses Beware: Ransomware is on the rise, again Liability belongs to You: Misconfigured Clouds and Security All Businesses are Tech Businesses - Like it or Not Big Tech taking Advantage of Our Kids --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Hey, good morning, everybody, Craig Peterson here. I am not doing the Facebook Live this week. If you watched it last week, I'd love to know what you think. Of course, it's something I am more than glad to do. We're busy, so I don't want to do something that people aren't going to like. We're thinking about trying to do something a little bit different, where we go ahead and instead of just the radio show when we do these Lives. We're going to use those for deep dive so you can ask questions and all of that sort of stuff. I think that's going to work out pretty darn well. We'll see how that goes. We're, you know, we're just trying a few different things here as time goes on. Hey, I got a great interview coming up with a friend of mine. He has been sugar-free now for years, you know, is a tech show right then, and there's no particular tech behind this. You know, if you listen to me for a while that I have had a weight problem, okay. Ever since I was a kid, I had a belly on me. The bottom of my rib cage there in the center kind of points out as I get a ski jump from my belly over the years. I've had this constant battle with my weight, and I lost 80 pounds, I put 40 back on throughout about 15, almost 20 years. I guess that's not too bad. Now I've taken it off again. I've talked about what I did to do that. I want you to hear what Barry has to say. I invited him on. He's an incredible guy and done so many interesting things over his life. He has a book out there, and he had a membership site. He was helping people for a while to get rid of their sugar addictions, but he's going to give us some tips and tricks and some points as well coming up a little bit later on today. I want to discuss a fair amount today about "The Cloud" because so many people think it's a panacea. They think by using the cloud somehow relieves them from the regulatory liability of these regulations that are out there and some of the things that you're supposed to comply with, right? In some cases, if you are a subcontractor selling stuff to a military contractor, there's now a ten-year prison sentence plus all of these fines and things that can nail you. So people are thinking, well, we'll just move to the cloud, right? It's going to make it easier. It's going to make it cheaper. And you know, the first pass on those numbers might be the case it might be cheaper. But what I have found in doing a little bit more digging is that many companies are now abandoning the cloud. And when I found they were abandoning the cloud, that's when I started getting interested trying to figure out why what's going on here. Here. And so I dug into it, and I'm going to share that with you today. I think that's an essential thing for businesses. I've got a new report out from the FBI this week that's backing me up from five years ago. I think that's kind of cool. So we'll talk about what the FBI is warning and telling us to do. From our security standpoint. We're going to also talk about some of the intricacies of cloud security. Still, Mac malware on Max, this is kind of interesting, isn't it because we all been kind of conditioned to think the Macs are malware-free, due to their secure design. They use software designed in the university environment for networking, unlike windows. You know, so when you think about the Mac and you think that you are completely free of malware, that is not the case. We'll talk about what kinds of malware you are likely to be exposed to that could kind of nail you. We're going to talk about business ransomware, you do not hear much about it, because you know, there was such a big deal a year to two years ago, but it is on the rise again. So we'll talk about that and how that's affecting business. We're also going to talk about the fact that if you are in business, face it, and you're a tech business. There are no two ways about it, right? As a business person, now you have to use technology. So how do you do it? How do you take care of your security and your technology, when the Calvary is incoming, they're not there? You're just like every other business out there. That means you have to develop some technical prowess and expertise. You have to be also the guys that take care of your security. Maybe you'll bring in professional services firms to help you out. Companies like mine can come in and design your network or redesign your network. Or maybe have accountants come in and look over your bookkeeping. Maybe help to improve some efficiencies in the business. Maybe you bring a legal team in to make sure that you're not going to get nailed by some of these regulations out there. The bottom line is that we are all tech businesses in this day and age. That's something that I don't think most people consider. We'll get into that a little bit later on today. We're also going to be talking about big tech, taking advantage of our kids some new lawsuits filed under the children's online privacy protection act or COPPA, against some of the biggest companies out there in the online world. These are all big deals, I think. That's what we're going to be talking about today. If you want to two, you can get all of these different segments from my weekly radio shows my appearances on TV and radio at my website at Craig Peterson dot com, and you can listen to them individually. You can also subscribe to the podcast. What we've been doing with the radio show since the whole radio show from soup to nuts is an hour and a half long every week is to put it out as one long show. Thanks to a suggestion from a few listeners and one guy that kind of pushed me over the edge in making it that way. If you subscribe to the podcast on any of the major podcasting services, you are going to get a one hour and a half, a 90-minute podcast that covers all the latest news of the week. I appreciate everybody that's doing that. Of course, our numbers have gone down a little bit in the podcast downloads because there are fewer downloads instead of the show being a different podcast is now one podcast, but I think it is better. There was an event that was held by the FBI infragard program in New Hampshire here last week. I didn't go as I was just tied up. They hold it the morning, every couple of months, and most of the time, I just can't go. But the event was called "The Calvary is not coming." They weren't talking about Covid-19 The coronavirus. They were talking about our infrastructure, our businesses when we get attacked. I work with the FBI on cases and help them understand what's going on with attacks against our customers like when Iran or China, Russia, or even others are trying to attack our customers by doing some nasty stuff with our customers, right? Our customer's data that we just don't want to have happened. We just didn't want that information to get out. While preparing these tutorials, the pop-up-trainings, and coursework, it brought to mind this idea of the Calvary, and whether or not they're coming. You and I, we are the people who are responsible for the security in the businesses we work in, right? And that can end up meaning that it's all on our shoulders. So this whole Calvary thing got me to thinking that I think there's a great analogy here. We are the Calvary, I'm the Calvary, and that is the director Action I've been going anyways, not with that specific wording, that particular name, okay. But that's the direction I've always been going. But now I think I'm going to get way more specific about that. Because you are the Calvary, you are the people that your family goes to when there's a problem. You are the people who are relied on by the business owner. Maybe you are the business owner, and the buck stops with you when it comes to technology when it comes to security when it comes to making everything work, right. That's the way it is with me, right? I'm the business owner, and yet the tech buck, the security buck stops with me. And so that's the approach I'm going to be taking here. We are the Calvary. I am the Calvary. You are the Calvary every one of you, right? You listen to this tech show to understand technology a little bit better because you're the person that others go to who is going to answer their questions. Who's going to fix their problems. I think it's great, but I also feel a huge responsibility to help you with that. I kind of woke up in more than one time over the last few months with nightmares, that's the wrong word, but how do I help you? How do I help you guys best? What are the things you need to know that is going to be easy? It is a question that we need to work on need to understand. We need to make work for us and our families, our business families as well as our families. That's my theme. I have already got five tutorials in the can where I'm doing screenshots, and I am showing you what to do while you're watching my desktop as I am doing things. I'm installing an extension, or I'm locking down a Windows computer, or I'm configuring a firewall. I am doing all of these things you have to do for everybody or that you have to understand. That's where we're going. I am committed to this. I think I have a message that that works that people can understand, right? The Calvary isn't coming. You are the Calvary. We are the Calvary, each one of us, and that's what we will be covering. So keep an eye on that. Make sure you're on my email list because these tutorials, although free, you can only get them if you subscribe. Craig Peterson dot com is where you're going to find it online. Craig Peterson dot com. Make sure you also use subscribe to the podcast, I'd appreciate it if you enjoy these. A subscription always helps us out and helps get the word out even further. We'll be right back listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN and, of course, online at Craig Peterson dot com. Hi guys, welcome back. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. In online, of course, Craig Peterson dot com. We're going to talk about the cloud and what stuff you need to worry about and what you don't. I was at my chiropractor's just this week and talking with him, and he has moved his practice in with another chiropractor. It's a little bit bigger, they've got massage therapists, and now there are four chiropractors in practice there. He was asking because he was concerned, they have a system there that is cloud-based, and you know, time was they would have a server there in the office, maybe in the basement, and they would have their little firewall, they try and keep things safe. Now that it's out in the cloud, their worried. We're going to be getting into that in a few minutes. And then also coming up here at the top of the hour. I've got my friend Barry who's going to be joining us, and we're going to be discussing sugar, which is, yeah, I guess there's kind of a tech angle to the sugar side, right? Like the high fructose corn syrup and the problems coming from that, of course, we're not going to talk about that part of it, but what he's done and the book he has as well as what you can do. First off, let's talk about our first cloud topic of the day. And this is about businesses in danger, and how they're in danger now from the cloud. The cloud, as I mentioned in the last segment, is not a panacea; it does not relieve you of any responsibility for the data that is in the cloud. So, for instance, if you have patient data, if you have data that is privileged or personally identifiable, putting it into a cloud vendor's hand does not relieve you of that responsibility. If you want to check it out with most of the major vendors out there like Google, for instance, you can find their statements online of what it is that they will accept responsibility for, which is nothing. And that's particularly true if you're not using the business type services. For instance, with Office 365, if you are using their email service, for example, and you're on their lower tier of the platform, you're not going to get security. You're not going to get the ability to block some of the most malicious types of emails that might be coming in. It's not backed up. They are not going to have some of the multi-factor-authentication that you really should have tied in with things, maybe like DUO or others, alright. Just because there is a cloud-service does not mean it's safe. Just because a company like Microsoft with its Office 365 does have some pretty darn secure services. Don't assume that the lower end service is they have are going to be safe for you either. And there's a great article I have up on my website right now. And it's from Health Net security. And it's talking about this subject and saying that 44% of malicious threats are cloud-enabled nowadays. Think about that. It's huge. Time was when the risks were what viruses and we know anti-virus software now is pretty much good for nothing, right? Because the anti-virus software is not going to protect you from modern threats. But that's what it was. It was all this virus stuff that might spread and worms that might cover the basics. But now we're seeing that cybercriminals are using the cloud because it's been an effective method for them to hide their attacks. Because the cloud vendor again, it's you know, friendly. Glee, this is you know, saying, you see a lot, aren't I? Frankly, when you get right down to it, if you are in a big cloud vendor like Microsoft or Google or an Amazon. Or even some of these smaller guys that are still pretty big, you're not even noticeable. Would they notice if you moved to another cloud provider? You will not change their bottom line or their top line. You're not even a rounding error. How much do you think that they care about you individually? What can you do when you get hacked, and you're in the cloud? What can you do when their cloud network goes down? What can you do when their software isn't working when a rollout of their latest release doesn't work? Or maybe it just doesn't work for you and 10,000 other people, which is nothing, right? Because Yeah, well, we got millions of subscribers 10,000 Some people Yeah, well, we'll get right on that for you, sir. Right, because you're not even in the 1%. Lots of problems here. And when we're talking about the security side, yeah, in some ways, it's going to be more secure. But in many ways, it's not. Here's a quote here from a threat company that they do a lot of research is called net scope and scale P. and Ray can Aziz is the threat research director over there. And he's saying, and we are seeing increasingly complex thread techniques being used across cloud applications, spanning from Cloud phishing and malware delivery, to cloud absolute control and ultimately, cloud data exfiltration. Of course, data exfiltration is where the bad guys are stealing your bank account information, stealing nutritional property, stealing your customer's information, etc. Or research Research shows the sophistication and scale of the cloud-enabled Kill Chain to increase, requiring security defenses that understand thousands of cloud apps to keep pace with attackers and block cloud threats. For these reasons, any enterprise using the cloud needs to modernize and extend its security architecture. In other words, what he's saying is any business because we know when he's an enterprise, I want to bring up a critical point. I was doing some work and doing some training with a bunch of accountants in Ireland. The largest group of accountants in Ireland, and I was explaining some of the security problems that we see here and around the world and that they see there, and they started talking about enterprises. Now I note in enterprises, right, and enterprise is big business. You think of enterprises here in the United States, and you're thinking about you know, the multi-billion dollar profit that some of these vast enterprises get. An enterprise means any business, right? It's an enterprise for a kid to set up a lemonade stand at the side of the road and sell lemonade to passers-by. That's an enterprise. So they're saying here, and I agree that every business, no matter how small, needs to understand the threat and understand that cloud apps aren't the answer and you have to take care of it yourself. The Calvary isn't coming. Your end Nat not even in that you're not a rounding error when it comes to the amount of money these companies made and make every year. So you have to be your own Calvary. Now, when we're stuck talking about businesses here, they're saying that 89% of companies are In the cloud Now, that doesn't mean they're hundred percent in the cloud, it just means you're using the cloud service. I bet you when you got right down to it, that those numbers are probably really 100%. People are using some of the services that maybe you shouldn't be using, right. They're using Google Docs and Sheets and all of those types of things. I use Grammarly all of the time, and some of those things can leak data. So we're trying to be careful not to use some of the cloud services when it comes to more confidential data. But really, it's 100%. Think about everything you're doing, all of the collaboration tools, and people are using Slack, which is not secure. And they're using that to share information within the team. You know, it's a great productivity application, sweb mail apps, those are probably the most popular and used today, people using Gmail or I mentioned office 365. I have a friend who still uses Yahoo, who knew that they were still in business doing email, right? There, the average company is using 142 different cloud applications. And I'm what I'm just trying to do here. Now, I'm not trying to scare you away from using the cloud. It isn't just a scare tactic. I'm not trying to sell you a listen. You need to have multiple layers, and you have to buy them for me, right? What I want you to do here, my whole goal of talking about this today is to get you to pay attention to what you're doing, and the data that you have up there. We're going to talk about this more when we get back. We'll finish this up. We're talking about the new FBI, released this week, what they're saying about security and what you can do to help. So stick around. You're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN. We'll be right back. Hey, welcome back, everybody, Craig Peterson here, WGAN online at Craig Peterson dot com. We're going to talk here about the FBI his latest recommendation from their press release this week. We've got more coming up about cloud security. Ransomware is on the rise again, what type is it? What's it doing? And at the top of the hour, I've got Barry Friedman joining us. We're going to talk about sugar, and the impact of sugar. Now, this isn't an entirely tech-related topic, but I know you're going to appreciate this. He is a great guy. He's got an excellent little book out. It's been up for quite a few years now. It is this concept that he has about sugar and what to do with it, and about it has helped to change my life. I figured I would share it with you. It's one of the things I find essential. Let's finish up our first cloud topic of the day because I want you guys to think about your use of the cloud. When you get into the larger businesses, it's looking like the average of these Fortune 500 companies. The real big ones, but not like the, you know, absolutely massive ones. Those guys are using over 2400 distinct cloud services and apps. Think about what you're using what you're doing. And let's help you think about it for a minute here. Here's a top of five cloud app categories. Which of these are you using Cloud Storage? So we're thinking about things like Dropbox here or box, we're thinking about things like Google Drive, which again, all of these guys Microsoft has one drive, all of them have tiers that are safe. However, most people are not buying their secure tier. So keep that in mind. Next, collaboration tools, which collaboration tools are you using? Right? I am talking about Slack here, and about the Microsoft Teams program. And there are many other types of collaboration as well. We use some for putting together diagrams to use some for some of our graphics arts. We use some cloud apps for grabbing videos and doing some video production. Webmail, what are you using for webmail? Consumer stuff? What do you do? Are you going on to amazon.com to order things? How about some of these other sites, social media, many of us my business included, we have social media accounts that we use to keep in touch with our prospects and with our clients. Which are these are you using Google Drive, YouTube, office 365. Hopefully, you're at least using one of the business versions of office 365. How about Facebook? How about Google? Gmail, Microsoft Office SharePoint, that's a pretty common one. Outlook. How about Twitter, Amazon services like s3 or Amazon Web Services. It was the list goes on and on. LinkedIn, many of them are using them. When and when we're talking about 44% of the threats being cloud-based. It gets to be a big deal. The five top targeted cloud apps are Microsoft Office 365. Now we're seeing this right now with one of our clients who is using Office 365. Now we have them on one of the enterprise levels that they need. They have multiple times a day people trying to break into their Microsoft Office 365 for business accounts from Iran. Now numerous times a day, but also from China and Russia. The next top one box. Very good. Again, outstanding software, but you have to have the right kind. And make sure you're using at least two-factor authentication with some sort of a random one-time password (OTP) type generator. Google Drive Microsoft as your GitHub. Man, it goes on and on lots of great information here. I'm not planning on doing a full course on the cloud anytime soon. But we are going to talk about it more a little bit today coming up later on. But I want to get to this FBI thing right now. About five years ago, there was some academic research that was published, and I remember reading it back then I was really, really into it came out of Cornell, and they looked at the strength of passwords. And we went into the whole history of behind passwords how they started I remember the very first passwords, you know, we remember using systems didn't have passwords. But it has evolved to the point today where these recommendations that came out five years ago are starting to take root with people. There have been so many discussions, so many arguments, if you will, about what should or should not happen when it comes to security. Some are arguing that we need more complexity in our passwords. Many businesses require you to have uppercase lowercase digits, special characters in the password used to be used to have control characters and your passwords. I haven't seen that requirement in a long time. It was back in the days of terminals. Others say, Hey, listen, all you need to do is make your passwords longer. Because part of the problem we have with passwords is the more Like some password, the more likely somebody is going to write it down. And if they write it down, the cleaning crew or somebody else is going to come across it, right? That's a bit of a problem. Well, the FBI is Portland office this week, came out on the side of longer passwords and not this whole complexity mess. So in the FBI statement, they said, quote, instead of using the short, complex password, it's hard to remember, consider using a longer passphrase. It involves combining multiple words into a long string of at least 15 characters. The extra length of the password makes it harder to crack while also making it easier for you to remember. It falls right in line with the research out of Cornell. It is what I've been recommending for a long time. You're best off using some sort of a phrase such as a four-word phrase for a password. Remember, I use password managers, and you should be. You should be using one password or using Lastpass to make sure that you are safe right. So using one of those have it choose the words for you randomly. Both of them have the ability to generate passwords. Occasionally I will use these very complex ones with upper lowercase special characters and numbers. But I only do that when the site requires you to do that. Okay. But this is a very, very big deal. And you might have seen stuff about this before there is a famous now-infamous XKCD webcomic that is online, I should say. It is kind of cool. A lot of sarcasm, math, and language, but it's looking at password strength and through 20 years of effort and said We've successfully trained everyone to use passwords that are hard for humans to remember, but easy for computers to guess. And that is the problem, the harder it is for the computer to guess. The longer it'll take to break-in to, and the less likely they can get into your account, right? So they break it down, look for common substitutions, look at the order numerals punctuations and basically, they come out and say, Hey, listen for your average password, using troubadour ampersand three as the example. That's 1-234-567-8910 11 characters, which is a pretty good length, right? Most sites only require eight characters. That breaks down to 28 bits of entropy. That's two to the 28th power, and at 1000 guesses a second, it would take a computer above three days to break that particular password. You know, possible attack if it's a weak remote web service, it can be a lot faster, there are hash tables that are news. Those hash tables make it so that the bad guys can crack a password in just minutes. When you start using these big ones, and the example is like course, correct battery staple, that's 44 bits, takes 550 years to guess versus three days. Think about that for a few minutes. I think it's vital that we use these passphrases from once again, I agree with the FBI on this one. All right, when we come back, we have one more segment before we get into our little sugar interview. And we're going to talk a bit of malware on Mac. So stick around. We'll be right back. Hey, welcome back, everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN and online, Craig Peterson dot com. We're going to talk right now about malware on max. Right, our max hack-proof is not kind of the bottom line. But we're going to talk about that we also have more coming up on some of the cloud risks and things you can do, where you should keep an eye out when it comes to the cloud services that you're using. And I want you to think about what services you're using. And we did talk about that a little bit earlier. Okay, so let's get into the max right now. When we get back to the top of the hour, we're going to be joined by my good friend. We're going to be talking a little about what's going on when it comes to sugar, guys, so he's coming up here in about what 1015 minutes, so make sure you stick around you're going to enjoy it. He has a book out there by You'll find it over on Amazon almost anywhere online. And I think you'll get a lot out of it. It's called I love me more than sugar, the why and how of 30 days sugar-free. So it's, it's absolutely a great idea and is something must pay attention to, we have such an obesity epidemic in addition to all the illnesses, so many of them traced back to that one ingredient. Why and how and what's going on. All of that is coming up with my friend Barry Friedman coming up at the top of the hour. So our Macs you know if you've watched me for a while that I am a huge Apple fan, right? And I'm a big Apple fan mainly because when Apple first came out with iOS 10, not iOS but with a Mac os 10. They had switched from using what was a complete and total toy operating system to a real one using Unix and a refined version of Unix. They ended up having a mock OS underneath it. I had worked on both platforms before helping to develop the kernels in both of those, so I thought, well, this is great, maybe now's the time because I was frustrated, right. I had been using Unix for years. I had, at that point, used Linux as well. And so many of the apps that I wanted to use just weren't available for Linux or any version of Unix. That was a big BSD guy. He still used BSD for some of the things we're doing. I just said, this Is it, right? Because you could drop into a terminal, you had a real terminal, a real operating system sitting under underneath you. And I thought that was pretty darn cool. And I have stuck with Max ever since. But Macs are not foolproof. They do come under attack. Apple has tightened things up. If you've got Catalina, which is the latest release of the Mac operating system, you know that some of the old apps that you might have had no longer work on Catalina, because Apple now has put some requirements in place. The biggest one is, you guys need to be 64 bits instead of 32 bits. That makes the operating system writing a little bit easier because you no longer have to handle two sets of libraries and worry about linking the man or the addressing space for the application. After all, you want to randomize it. And so now I'm going down a rat hole, you're getting kind of geeky, but that's one of the things the other big thing is now you might have noticed that Apple has a lot of controls in place about where an application can go on your Mac, what it has access to and will pop up and ask you about it. There is a lot more stuff coming up. In fact, in the next minor release of Catalina, there's going to be more restrictions in place. But even with all of those things, there are still some vulnerabilities, nothing like Windows. But Windows is getting better. But there are still some significant flaws in the way windows works with its file-sharing services, services turned on, even though it has a firewall. It's a crappy one, and that's part of what we're going to take care of with some of the courses and tutorials I am offering. You're going to be able to lock down any Windows or Mac computer all by yourself. You're going to be able to lock down your small business network, and I am teaching you how to do that, absolutely free. No upsells. Depending on how far you want to be able to lock it down, I will have some courses and things too. As I've said so many times, you're the Calvary the hackers are coming you have to be prepared. When we're talking about Macs, what must we pay attention to? Malwarebytes has some outstanding software that you can use on a Mac and also on Windows. It's one of the few pieces of software one of the packages that I recommend, frankly, but they've got a new report out, and they're saying that Mac malware is now growing faster than malware for Windows, for the first time. It is a quote right out of malware bytes. For the first time, Macs outpaced Windows PC in the number of threats detected per endpoint. I want you to remember, that is threats, not actual successful attacks. In total, we saw approximately 24 million Windows, adware detections, and 30 million Mac detections. We're talking about adware here. These aren't the viruses that have plagued windows forever. It isn't the ransomware that continues to plague windows and will for years to come. We're talking about adware detections. Frankly, what this boils down to so that you don't get too worried about it with your Mac. It is that most of the Mac malware is much more of a nuisance, and it is a real danger. Because Macs are generally not vulnerable to what we would normally classify as malware. They do have some pop-ups that can happen because of the browsers. That's why I've got my training coming up. You guys that are the frontline defenses in your homes and your families and your businesses, you are the Calvary. I've got some great Calvary training coming up for all of you. Keep an eye out for that here in a couple of weeks. But Macs are mostly only vulnerable to this so-called adware frankly and add whereas I said it's more of a nuisance than a danger. Here's something else that Malwarebytes acknowledges it says max differed drastically from windows in terms of the types of threats seen. Between us. It's because they design Macs drastically different than Windows machines. Mac's operating system is designed right. Back to Malwarebytes, where we found several different categories and families in our top detections and Windows threats that classify as traditional malware, especially those aimed at businesses. Most Mac threats and certainly the most common ones are families of adware and potentially unwanted wanted programs (PUPs). Among the top 10 Mac threats for consumers and businesses or it is a mix of these PUPs, these potentially unwanted programs, and adware. The PUPs are a variety of mostly cleaning apps termed as unwanted not just by Malwarebytes but by the Mac user community at large. Two of the best-known examples mean Mac keeper and Mac booth. And I had to add to that, that I have a good friend and he was in the insurance business for years, had his practice and they had several people working for him as he was handling insurance, and then he went into investment type stuff. And it was interesting to me that he fell for that whole pop thing multiple times. He just kept downloading and paying for Mac keeper, which just doesn't do anything, and is malware itself. It is adware. Mac boosters are the same sort of problem. Don't install those things. By the way, when it comes to a Mac, this is very crucial. You have to install the software yourself, right. So until last year, the two top Mac adware apps had detected installations. Number one Hundred of thousands in 2019. However, one new piece of adware was detected 30 million times. It's called New Tab. It appeared on the scene in December 2018. It's an adware family that attempts to redirect searches in the web browser to earn illicit affiliate revenue. I've talked about that before it clicks on ads using your browser. And it is usually delivered in the form of apps with embedded Safari, Safari extension Safari is Apple's number one browser, Apple's browser itself, right. So don't use a new tab. Most crucially of all, Mac malware is not a virus, and it can't spread by itself. It isn't a worm that kind of crawls around. Mac OS does not allow unsigned apps to be installed without user permission at all. The mission these apps cannot spread from machine to machine. You have to fix them. No drive-by, right? None of that happens on a Mac. So the way Mac malware gets installed is by entirely new users like you and me into installing it ourselves. And when we're talking about these potentially unwanted programs, when I call it a scam, where, frankly, but these types of scams advertising junk apps, pretend they're doing something useful. And this is part of what chrome google just got rid of over 500 Chrome extensions because they were doing the same thing. They had scareware built into them. They weren't clicking on all kinds of ads out there to try and drive up revenues. Naive users like my buddy that get tricked into installing them and sometimes even paying for them, which is what he did with Mac keeper. Okay. And then they're hijacking your browser. It's just crazy. So protect yourself. It is simple. Only ever install apps from the Mac App Store or a trusted developer. Only install browser extensions that are recommended by me or by trustworthy sources, because they are not signed and not reviewed. You can always delete them, and you can always remove them, you know, and that's been my advice for people for a long time. Go through your inventory of apps, including on your iPhones, your iPads, etc. The thing that you see that you haven't used in a while delete them. I just went through earlier this week on my iPhone, I sat there and said, Okay, I haven't used that for a while, but I really could use it soon. No, I haven't used it for a while, and I deleted it, which is what I recommend everybody do here. Be very careful that great article from nine to five Mac by Ben Lovejoy that I was commenting on here this segment, and you'll find it online and, of course, at Craig Peterson dot com. And this is part of what I do if you are on my email list, you will get these emails. We have a high open-rate like 40% of you guys open these emails, and I think that's just phenomenal. It's a very, very high rate because they are so useful. So make sure you subscribe, Craig Peterson, calm, slash subscribe, get on my email list, and articles like this and others, including that FBI warning that just came out, will show up in your mailbox. Usually, Saturday morning depends on how far a week's been going. Stick around when we come back. I got my friend joining us, Barry Friedman. You're listening to Craig Peterson on w GAN online Craig Peterson dot com. Hello, everybody, welcome back. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. A little earlier this week, I sat down and recorded an interview with a friend of mine. I've known him for quite a while now. His name is Barry Friedman. He's written a book that you'll find online. It is one of the Amazon number one bestsellers titled I love me, more than sugar. You know that I have been very conscious about my health, particularly recently, right? As I get a little bit older, you realize I'd better be healthy, or I'm going to have all kinds of problems. I have been doing all sorts of diets over the years over the last 40 years. A lot, okay. I kind of stuck with the Atkins diet for a while lost quite a bit of weight. I also have tried a couple of other things. Over the last couple of years, year and a half, anyway, my wife and I have been doing Intermittent fasting. We found it to be just absolutely incredible for us. Now, Barry has a different way of approaching it that's been very successful for him and many other people. So I asked him if he'd sit down with us and talk a little bit about it, and he did. So here we go with the interview with Barry Friedman. Again, check it out online, you'll find this book. It's called I love me more than sugar, the why and how of 30 days sugar-free. We're joined right now by Barry Friedman. He is an author. He has been quite busy over the years, even on Johnny Carson, back in the day. He is a gentleman that I know and appreciate. He's helped me out with a few things over the years. I want to talk a little bit about this book here. I love me more than sugar. What he has found. What he's doing. To help not just me out a little bit, but he's going to talk about sugar and how it impacts all So let's get started. Barry, welcome. Barry Hey, Craig. Craig 2:06 Now there is a whole bunch of controversy out there right now, I've heard people say there are a million diet plans. If you do a Google search, you'll find one that'll work for you because they all work. You know, and it's varying degrees, right? And I've done this over the years, I lost 80 pounds doing the diet, which is really something and then I put about half of that on over the next 20 years. I've taken it off now by doing intermittent fasting and being a little more cautious about what I eat. Looking at all of these changes over the years, one of the significant changes I see right now, Barry, has to do with this food pyramid, which tells us we have to eat grains that were the basis of it. Why don't you tell us a little bit about why that is? What's the problem with the grains and sugars in them. Barry It is funny, you know, all that stuff. See, you would talk to a nutritionist and do well to dig into that, Craig. But what I can tell you is, you know, since childhood of our culture, our parents often use sugar as a reward, punishment, and bribe. It works its way into our lives so fast, so pervasively, and it's kind of a miracle. We eat a lot of wheat. We eat a lot of grains, and those turn into sugar. We eat a lot of sugar. We're up to about 150 to 180 pounds a year average for Americans. It's about eight pounds every three weeks. I know that because I used to go on TV talking about my book and a juggle an eight-pound bowling ball. I would hand that to the host and say, here's how much sugar an average person eats in three weeks, and they hit the table with it. Yeah, it's funny, you know, I think in 2020 or within this decade, we are going to unequivocably look at sugar the same way we now look at tobacco. It snuck in. Back in the old days, go back 150 years, rich people would eat four pounds of the stuff a year. Our systems have not developed fast enough to handle the massive increase, and it shows up in all kinds of ways, overweight, and obesity. A lot of people will tell you it has a lot to do with the number of cancers we have. If you were to look at those two curves, cancer, and sugar consumption, those curves look pretty similar. Now, I'm not a doctor. I'm a four-time world champion who doesn't eat sugar. Craig 4:28 Sugar over the years, we know it has caused problems. I saw some studies looking at some of the Egyptian mummies thousands of years ago now a couple of thousand years ago, and they had all kinds of problems with their teeth and many other diseases that they had. Now they're attributing that to sugar. You mentioned that when we were younger, we would get a little bit of sugar as kind of a treat or reward. Now we see these hangry commercials, but you need to eat this Chocolate Bar because it's going. It has gotten out of hand Unknown Speaker 5:04 Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, that's how we get up to 150 180 pounds a year, it's added to everything. Crackers and salt have dextrose in it to keep it from caking, salt has sugar, which is fantastic. You know, a lot of savory foods will have it, and it just shows up everywhere. The truth is, after eight years of coming up, Leap Day 2020 will be my eighth anniversary. My first day sugar-free was leap-day 2012. I love these every four years I get an actual anniversary. What happens, you know, what happens when it stopped eating is the taste for the desire for the need. The addiction goes away. Food starts to taste differently. I've often said to people, Craig, that you can't speak for the version of yourself who lives on the other side of 30-day sugar-free. Right now, the person I am is influenced by everything I've done in the last whatever, 30 days or 30 years. That person on the other side of a 30-day sugar-free detox is an entirely different person as far as skin or anxieties. Usually, the feelings they have, their skin, the amount of sleep they need, the way their teeth feel. My teeth feel so good all the time right now used to be able to take my pulse in my teeth after eating a four-pack of Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. I could feel my pulse. Yeah, I may have been feeling my finger, but it felt like my tooth was banging. Anyway, if somebody is interested in doing that, you know jumping, find little tricks you can do for yourself like tell yourself you're not getting any sugar for 10 AM or noon. Little tiny tricks will turn around the habits. Craig 6:35 It is the habit that is the problem. In so many ways for so many people. Going back to what I've been doing with intermittent fasting. You know I had it in my mind that I had to eat. We look at our kids nowadays. They have breakfast, and they have a mid-morning snack in school, they have lunch at school and then an afternoon snack after school and another bite before they go to practice. The score it's getting bigger, just listening to it and drink during sports practice Barry Yeah, exactly. It is sugar, and it's compounding. Craig When I decided, Hey, I'm going to skip a meal, you know, just a very moderate light-fast. Yeah, my brain was just going, Oh, you've got to eat. I found that really what it was for me was kind of always an addict, right? I was addicted to it. Is sugar that way too? You are describing it as you know, try not to have sugar before 10 AM. Is this something an addiction, frankly? Barry Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? I mean, the sugar beats up four organs pretty severely, the brain, the liver, the heart, and the skin. As far as the brain and when you're talking about like, even before we take that bite, you know, it starts firing up, you know, it fires up the same receptors that are fired up by gambling or sex or drugs. No chance of addiction. They're right certainly no chance of addiction. But yeah, it plays, and you know, it's funny going off sugar and I did it for 30 days. Well, I did for one day at first felt so good on March 1, 2012. I was like, I have to do this for 30 days and see what happens about 20 days into that. I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to do this for a year just because I feel so alive right now I have to see how I feel. But what happens is it throws a monkey wrench into well-choreographed habits that you have in your life, right the way you live and yours and other people's. That's another thing that happens, you know, it's like I live in a family with a wife and a son. We mean, you don't do sugar. It's a personal decision. You know, you get this little dance of confusion that you get to run around, but it's also within that is bliss, and there's resentment, and there's a renewal, and there's hope the emotions so much is involved. When we eat sugar, you know, it's not supposed to be a portal for squelching fear and sadness and loneliness, anger. It's supposed to be for food, and so few of the 650,000 items that are on a market shelf, serve that exact purpose. The food you know, we can walk around and collect what's food, in a pretty small basket, and other stuff are usually just connectors for that hundred and 150-180 pounds of sugar a year. Craig 9:10 Let's talk about this bloating, right? We were discussing a little bit about what happens when we eat a lot of sugar. The insulin response, for ten years, I was a volunteer paramedic, and I certainly had diabetic patients. You'd find them just unconscious, and what do you do with them? I know a lot of people who have diabetes, as well. A lot of this has to do not just with the insulin response, which I'd love to chat about briefly. It has to do with inflammation at the cellular level. Our bodies are blocking themselves because of what we're doing with some of the sugars that we're eating. We put on weight, and that increases our inflammatory response. It results in some of these other problems with the brain and the heart and the liver. Barry Yeah. There are very few things that surprise me when I walk around an airport, and I still travel a fair amount. When walking around an airport, I see a lot of large people. We're big people nowadays, and it's not surprising. You know, when you talked about the molecules, sugar is composed of two molecules, I'll keep this as technical as possible, Glucose, and fructose. Glucose gets metabolized by every cell in the body, you know, and if we don't get it from the diet, our diet our bodies make it. Fructose, so very different. The only organized organ that can metabolize that is the liver. The liver is the single transporter for it. It's overworked. I mean, it's it probably did pretty well back in the days when people ate four pounds of sugar, wealthy people ate four pounds of sugar, not average peasants, the likes of me. I've gotten a few they called it the delicate spice back in the day, and that's what our livers could healthfully handle you don't see a lot of large people when we look back in old pictures. I just got all these pictures of my grandma, and her family send through the legacy box is such a beautiful thing to get these 14 Films back. No one is fat, Craig. There's nothing personal in the video. Yeah, going back to probably the 1880s the earliest people on here, but that's just people running around. They've not filled themselves. It's a challenge, man, you know, and it becomes a very personal decision, no one's going to make us quit sugar. We've been talking about it. Craig Hey, stick around. When we get back, we're going to finish up our interview with Barry. He has some more interesting points, including how he got to the point he's at right now. So we'll be talking about that. And we're also going to talk a little bit about intermittent fasting, what I've been doing, and what you might want to do and then we're going to get back into technology. Listen to Craig Peterson WGAN. Craig Hey, welcome back everybody Craig Peterson here WGAN online at Craig Peterson dot com. Hey, let's pick up our interview with Barry Friedman. In case you were wondering what the name of his book is, it's "I love me more than sugar." I quite enjoyed it. This guy is a great guy and has been involved with so many things over the years, from being on the Johnny Carson show doing juggling through today where I met him because he's one of the coaches in one of the programs in which I participate. Very, very great guy, and we're going to talk more with him about the whole sugar thing. Barry I wasn't famous for a long time when I first tried this and then then it started, like, wow, he's still doing that, you know, the Curiosity started then I wrote a book about it and got on TV shows as fast as I wanted to dial-up and call-in or fly-in and be on Morning News. There's a call for it. It's a curiosity, but soon, it will be something that we must study. Craig Yeah, I think it's going to be common sense a few years from now. We're speaking with Barry Friedman. He has written a book, and I want to get into that. Now. I'm glad you brought it up. It is part of the 30-day exercise that you discussed. There's a plan in there. Why don't you tell us a bit about the book? I found it over on Amazon. Easy enough to find, and what's it doing? How's it going to help people? Barry Yeah, you know, this book is it's very non-scientific, and I, my buddy, Penn Jillette of Penn and Teller, the taller, bigger-half of Penn and Teller, He lost over 100 pounds on it. He wrote a great book called presto, how I lost 100 pounds. He's got an excellent subtitle for it, but his first line in the book, and I'm one of the few people in the world that can jump on to his tagline. If you take diet advice from a juggler, you're an idiot, because that's what he wrote in the book. I wrote the book really from just a perspective of a guy who did it. A guy who, you know, I traveled around a lot. I did shows for 34 years. Ted conferences, TV shows, I was around a lot of delicious sugar, and I used to love it all. From 2012 on, no added sugar, anything. I tell stories about that journey. Some substitutions we can do, where it starts, what it does to us. Some challenges you may come across, and then the 30 days is walked through very scientifically. I ran an online program for five and a half years and helped thousands of people do a 30-day challenge. What that gave me Craig was a massive database of where people are on day one, day two, day three. It is a traceable spike. I mean, you can see some of the most dramatic days of my life. And you know, it's, I call it in the book ground zero-day for ground zero it was crashing. I remember lying on a massage table. Tears are running down my face. Not because of not having sugar, but I knew that moment was a turning point. My wife as she was like holding me down deep massage as hard as she could just get stuff moving in my body, but I was I felt like it was the door of the threshold into a new life. I think if I would have folded at that point, just grab something I wouldn't have just gone back to going past that day. That was when everything changed. So we in the community, we often talk about what's your day for, and sometimes it's a day for other people, but there is a time when we need to. That's the hero's journey part. That's where you grab the mystical apprentice who goes with you and the mentor who goes with you and walk you through dope. If that helps, I would love to walk you through that. Visa v the book and we have a Facebook page with the how 50-60,000 people on it who have all dabbled in some realm of it, and it's a movement. As I said at the beginning, we will soon look at this the same way we now look at tobacco, no doubt about it. Craig 3:55 The book is called "I love me more than sugar." Barry Friedman is the Author, anything else you'd like to add here? Barry, before we go? Barry Oh, I would just love to tell everybody that if something in this conversation spoke to you, I trust it. Don't question it. There's a fight or flight reflex in the brain that a little gland, that small almond-shaped gland whose job it is to take us away from scary things. If something touched you before, it has a chance to go through that part of the brain, a chance to tell yourself that there is a time for doing this. Know that sugars not for satisfaction or completion. It has never put through that kind of test. It's always about getting more. Like, I said, we will look at this as a real downfall for society. It got added to everything, and it became routine. As Craig said, we began hearing commercials about how we owe it to ourselves how we deserve this. So I trust the gut influences the gut instinct. If you heard something and take a chance, Craig 4:53 I put a link on my website as well obviously to this interview, and you mentioned a Facebook page. What's the name of that group? Or that page? Barry Thirty days sugar-free, but the last 30 days sugar-free Facebook group. We post some stuff in there from time to time. Craig 5:10 All right, and it's a community, and I think that's something that can help. Barry Yeah. Boy does it ever. It is easy to feel alone in this stuff. Craig 5:16 Yeah, exactly. Especially in this day and age again, Barry Friedman. I love me more than sugar and 30 days sugar-free. Look it up on Facebook. I appreciate you being with us today. Unknown Speaker 5:28 Thanks so much, Craig. Thanks for what you're doing. Bye-Bye. Craig 5:31 Hey, as I said, I hope you enjoyed it. Barry's just a great guy. It's a lot of fun chatting with him about what is going on out there. What he's been doing, and he's done a lot, right. I think the most exciting people, frankly, are the people who have done a lot of different diverse experiences in it, and it helps us help you helps me just overall. All right, so we got a couple more things we want. To cover here today, one of them is the liability here on cloud services. We'll get to that in a little bit of business. Ransomware, I think, is an important thing. We'll be talking about that and big tech taking advantage of our kids. But I want to kind of continue with this theme. Barry was talking about sugar, and I know that you know, some diets w for some people, they're not great for others. If you have diabetes, of course, getting to getting rid of some of the sugar can be problematic, right? You know, I was a volunteer in the ambulance service for ten years, and I quite a bit of advanced training and everything else. When called to the scene of a diabetic emergency, we would administer d-50, which is 50% dextrose to diabetics who were out of it, then take the blood samples and stuff so they can spin them up in the lab quickly when we got into the hospital. You know, probably if someone has a diabetic emergency that you got to get some sugar into them right away. So getting rid of sugar is a difficult thing for a person with diabetes. I have, as I mentioned before, on the show, I have been focused on intermittent fasting. It is effortless to do. I've been following a doctor up at the University of Toronto, Dr. Fung, who has several books out on the subject. Before I started this, I read at least a half a dozen books on intermittent fasting. There are so many ways to do intermittent fasting nowadays. You want to go 12 hours a day, at least without eating. And that's not hard when you get right down to it. You know, think about going to finishing dinner at six o'clock or seven o'clock at night. And then not having any snacks, not eating until six or 7 AM. The next day, there's your 12 hours. And then the other thing to do with intermittent fasting is never, ever, ever snack. Now you can have dessert if you want, you're going to have ice cream, cake, pie, you can have any of that stuff that you might want to have, but have it with your meal. Don't wait an hour before you have dessert or two hours or more, have it right away. What you're trying to do is control the insulin levels. Now a better way to do it is what's called 16-eight. That is instead of 12 hours of no food at all. You can have water, you can have clear liquids, obviously no sugar, and you go for the 16 hours. That means if you stop at 6 PM by 6 AM, your 12 hours and you want another four hours left, so let me know You could eat at 10 AM. Or if you finish your meal at 7 PM, which is the latest, you should finish eating. That means you could eat at 11 AM The next morning. You might have a skip breakfast again, no snacks, just black coffee, or tea with no milk. And then you, you have your lunch at noon, and then you have your dinner at four or five or six o'clock. Whatever works for you. You will lose weight, and you will get healthier. If you have diabetes or have other medical issues. You want to talk to your doctor about it. But this can cure type two diabetes, just intermittent fasting. But the whole sugar thing I think is something any of us can do. Even if you can't fast. Hey, Craig Peterson here, WGAN stick around. We got a lot coming up. Yeah, we're back into tech in the next segment. Hello, everybody, welcome back, Craig Peterson here. I hope you're on my email list. I want to keep everybody up to date. We've got some training for you guys. You're the Calvary, right? You're the people who come in to help fix the problems with small business computers. Maybe you're responsible for them. Perhaps you're the owner of the business, right? You're responsible for making sure that everything's running right and for choosing the right technology and stuff. I appreciate you all being with me. I have some specialized training coming up for you as well. But you need to be on my email list if you are going to find out about those pieces of training. The way to do that is just going to Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. Of course. Peterson P-E-T-E-R-S-O-N. Just like it sounds, Craig Peterson dot slash subscribe, and you'll get my weekly email outlining the most significant threats that are out there right now. All of the articles that we talked about in the show, and more. Plus a few more that I just don't get to that are essential. People love it. We get an excellent open rate, some of the best in the industry. That's how good this newsletter is. And I provide it for free. And I give a lot of these pieces of training, absolutely free. All of my tutorials are available on my website as well at Craig Peterson dot com. I built the technology behind some of the biggest organizations websites in the world. And yet mine is very sad. Okay, I have to get my act together. Oh, well, there's always something else to do. Right, just the cobblers kids. Well, let's get into ransomware because it is on the rise again. But let's start with a little history because I think this is cool when you get right into it. There is an article that I started reading over at CSO online that reminded me of it, and you'll see a link to it as well on my website at Craig Peterson dot com and in this morning's newsletter. Hopefully, you got that. But it started this ransomware thing back in 1991. There is a biologist who was doing AIDS research, and he was kind of upset that other people who were also researching AIDS, were getting more notice, and he wanted more credit than he was getting. He started sending out quote, AIDS research quote, on floppy disks via US mail back in 91, to other aids researchers. It had a piece of malware on there called PC Cyborg Cyborg. It was the first ransomware that we know of. Isn't that something, right? It was these researchers who were competing with this one researcher. The next big one used encryption was back in the aughts. Back in the mid-aughts, Bob 2005, it was called an Archie vs. It used encryption and was defeated. You can find its password over in Wikipedia even nowadays. Now, in 2010, we started seeing the series of what are called police ransomware packages. And they were warnings from law enforcement about victims of illicit activities and demanded payment of fines. So this was a new generation of anonymous payment services that they started to use to be able to better hard payments without getting caught. Of course, this was some of the Bitcoin and some of these other types of services. that allows you to send money, semi-anonymously. Remember that right it is not anonymous, the FBI and the Secret Service have worked together to arrest people who have been using Bitcoin illegally for, you know, these types of anonymous transactions. There was a new trend that started to emerge, and that was cryptocurrencies. Other than the legal activities that occurred that drove up the price of cryptocurrencies. Which were artificially high begin with, the other big drive for cryptocurrencies, has been ransomware. People need to pay ransoms, at least they want to pay ransoms. How do they do it? Well, that's what the criminal started to use. Extortionists just absolutely love them. Why? They are designed to be relatively untraceable, and relatively anonymous, right? So they started shooting their demands to other currencies. It's also nice because then they don't have to worry about, well, what's the value? In France, it's a euro, or In Britain, it's pound sterling, the US dollar, Canadian dollar, Australian dollar, know the value. cryptocurrency is pretty much flat, no matter what currency you're using. These attacks started shooting up about that point in time. But as of a couple of years ago, in 2018, the ransomware boom seemed to be on its way out. The hackers had found other illicit ways that people were using to snag Bitcoin. One of them is still in use today, and that is to have something on your browser that starts to use your browser to do Bitcoin mining for them. Okay. They were also looking for bitcoin wallets, Cryptojacking became very popular. It is something denial of service attackers have been using for years. They gain control of computers without their users or owners of the computers knowing. Cryptojacking ransomware decline, but cryptojacking SHOT UP 14-15%, so they're using your electricity, they're using your computer to have this whole, you know, the whole thing of having a new mind for Bitcoin. And of course today and it's not just Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. But today, many of these cryptocurrencies, it is costly to do mining, because most of the coins are gone. That's part of the reason they want to use your computer, but even then, the payback isn't as big as it used to be. So now we're starting to see two big drivers behind this massive surge recently in ransomware. So the First has to do with the vague guarantees of the cryptocurrency pricing. Many of the crypto-jackers. We're using the victim's computers to mine this open-source Monero currency. However, Monero prices have been dropping, and Bitcoin prices have dropped dramatically as well. Although now with some of the real viruses, like the Covid-19. Some of them are going up because people are moving their money into gold and some cryptocurrencies. Monero prices have started dropping, and the bad guys are starting to realize that mining cryptocurrency is not going to be as rewarding as ransomware. Attackers had already compromised the victim's computer with Trojan downloaders making it easy to launch a ransomware attack when the time was right. It took them only about a year 18 months to make a U-turn. It is just fascinating when you get right into it. We've seen a lot of them over the years, and now they are attacking businesses. They've always used this kind of spray and pray tactic of trying to send out this ransomware to as many computers as possible and as many people as possible, hoping that we are going to be successful without a significant return on investment. They've been going more and more against or against us by going directly right using phishing, spearfishing techniques, and other types of targeted attacks. So let's take a brief look here at some of the most significant attack methods that are out there. Sam Sam is number one right now is started appearing about f

Good morning everybody! I was on with Matt and Marty (who was sitting in for Ken.) We had a good discussion about election technology and what different states are doing to assure that they are secure.  We also talked about the FBI and Homeland Security about Passwords and Passphrases and security.  Here we go These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig If the Secretaries of State get hacked, I'm not sure we can feel comfortable. Would they even know that hacking occurred? If they did, it would be much after the fact. Craig So well, this morning, I was talking on WGAN in their affiliates about some of the voting technology, you know, Super Tuesday is coming up. I compared some of the election technology in different states. What's good. What's bad. We talked about the new FBI press release that came out, that is I hope going to have a significant impact on security. It is fascinating stuff. So here we go. Craig By the way, I talked a little bit about our tutorials and coming up. Yeah, man, You won't believe the work that went into these all for you. It is part of my give back. I am not trying to sell you, upsell you, or anything else with these. Anyways, here we go with this morning on Ken and Matt more. Joe things technology.t tech guru Craig Peterson is on right now on the WGAN Morning News with Ken and Matt. Matt Alright, we're back ladies gentlemen it is 738 on the WGAN morning news with Ken and also Matt. There is no Ken today. There is a Marty Groman he is over there. He is still wearing the Mardi Gras beads. Marty I am, Yeah, the party's just wearing off now. How many Mardi Gras jokes Do you get to do? Is it a party for me? Matt You know, I should have a whole roster of them. Marty But you don't work out times in the early 90s. Back in the good old days. The real Mardi Gras. Yeah, way down there. The crew of Baucus indeed. Matt Well, I don't know if Craig Peterson's ever been to Mardi Gras, but he joins us now to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, How are you this week? Craig Hey, I'm doing well. Yeah, there's a lot of party stuff. A Marty McFly, Cartoon Network has one of their top shows right now as Marty character in it to see. So yeah, he's getting around. Marty Everyone's getting on the bandwagon. Matt I don't know how to segue. So we're going to go ahead and just move into the attack already. Well, we do have an election coming up. Craig Peterson. Of course, in South Carolina, we've already seen a few primaries as well. And they've all gone smoothly with no trouble as we all know. There is an evolving question, though, that every time we have an election, we sort of debate and talk about and ask ourselves a very similar question? How can we make sure that these things are on the up and up? How do we make sure that our voting is secure? How do we make sure that it is all done correctly, and that nobody hacking and changing votes and manipulating things? On a more fundamental level? How do we protect our elections in technology? Craig Yeah, real big question a big problem. There are a few states have and, in fact, quite a few now that are using these election machines that we've grown to know and love, where we have a piece of paper effectively. And you fill in those little ovals there using the pencil or felt tip pen, right. You guys are familiar with those, right? Because you voted, right. Yeah. Those are right now, anyway, the best type of technology used for voting. There are other states and go all the way on the other side, and use these touchscreen voting machines that are running Windows XP. Now Windows XP hasn't been supported for many, many, many years, and they are connecting them to networks. When you vote, you just you touch the screen saying you're voting for so and so but some of these machines, they've got configured steal tickets. So you say, I'm voting Republican, or I'm voting Democrat. Or maybe you have Libertarian in that in a state right. People have repeatedly complained that the machines are improperly registering their votes. They'll say I'm voting for President Trump but somehow was recorded for Bernie Sanders. Right? That's, that's kind of the nightmare scenario. We don't want to see this Fall. If you vote and your votes not counted or correctly counted. When these things hit the news, and there is no audit trail like in some of these states, all you have is this computer that identifies that you voted for Bernie Sanders, even though you meant to vote for Donald J. Trump. They hit the news, all of a sudden everyone's all worried that somehow maybe my vote didn't count. Maybe there's cheating going on. Both of these could be true when using some of these types of technology. So there is a $10 million contract that has been awarded, it was awarded last year to come up with a secure voting machine. It looks like it's going to be more of a secure method of voting. There are so many ways that voting can be hacked. I just mentioned the machines themselves. If they are connected to a network ever, there is a potential for hacking. Optical Scanning machines used in New Hampshire are never connected to networks. They're loaded up, they put a little, basically a thumb drive into them, and they dump what the load is all about. But ultimately, there are multiple places that it could be hacked and could be hacked at the Secretary of State's office, where they're compiling all the votes from all of these machines throughout the state. It could be hacked again at the Secretary of State's office but on the website, where they post results, and where the federal government goes to get the results from the Secretaries of State. There's nothing fancy about how the votes are collected nationally. So your question going right back to it, Matt, have Can we trust the election? How can we trust the vote? Right now, I'd say here in Maine we are in pretty good shape. In the majority of states are in pretty good shape. There was a lot of money. I can't remember the numbers, exact number but a lot of money that was set aside and given to states to upgrade their voting machines. The temptation is always as we talked to with Ken here about this a couple of weeks ago. Should we buy the Betamax right or buy the newest, greatest latest, and coolest technology? We see right now from the FBI and Homeland Security reports, generally speaking at this point, it doesn't look like there will be a lot of problems this year. There was disclosed some significant issues in few states in the 2016 election with problems with hacking attempt, explicitly directed at the Secretaries of States in several different countries. Those Secretaries of State have been informed about it, those of them that come out recently. Ultimately, I guess we won't know how good it is until sometime after the fact. That part of it doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy, is that the average time to figure out a hack occurred is your business is around six months. If the Secretaries of State get hacked, I'm not sure we can feel comfortable, would even know that they've been hacked. If they did, it wouldn't be much after the fact. So just let's stick with the old fashioned way for now, because it's the best way, the brand new way, by the way, that $10 million award. It looks like they are leaning towards a paper solution as well. So it's an electronic voting machine. And you touch the screen so that you vote for people you want. It spits out a piece of paper with your votes on it, you then take that piece of paper with your votes on it, and you give it to ever to whoever is, is running that little local election, they run it through a scanning machine. That is not much different from what we're doing today. And that's, that's a suggestion as to what the most secure type of voting will be. Marty Craig, it's, it's Marty. So yeah, it fills in the Oval for you then. But let me ask you if I may change topics on you a little bit. These trackers kind of drive me bonkers, right. When I when I visit, you know, the onion dot com or something the banner ads seem like they take forever to load. I added the DuckDuckGo extension to Google Chrome, and it cut that right off. I mean, what is your take was was that a good idea? A bad or bad idea? Craig Well, we've just had over 500 extensions removed from the Chrome extensions store, store, even though they're free, right, you have to pay for them. And as a general rule, I advise against using those extensions. In about two weeks, Marty, I'm going to have some training that I'm going to be releasing that's free. I'm not trying to upsell you or trying to sell you anything about some of these extensions that are going to keep your information safe. Now DuckDuckGo is well known as one of the best guys out there when it comes to blocking your tracking. Some of the others that I'm going to be covering in training include Ghostery, and you should be using HTTPS anywhere, which does something a little bit different. pundants amazing. You block origin and others. I'm going to go through those a couple of hours worth of training that I'll be releasing here in a couple of weeks, but Marty, I think you're right, use DuckDuckGo for your search engine. And there are more and more these extensions that are trying to keep your privacy. And I haven't looked at goes. But as a rule, those guys have been great and make sites load faster. Over to you. Marty That's what it does. Craig Ultimately, you know, all of these different extensions that I just mentioned in there, we're going to be doing this training on all of them will make it load faster. And you take a site like forbes.com that just has a crazy number of trackers on it. And the ads that you mentioned, like the ads, loading, and taking time, it makes Forbes go from about it took four minutes for me the other day to completely load everything on Forbes homepage. It was that bad. Then when I turned on these blocker extensions, it went from four minutes down to five seconds. So they're not only tracking us, but they're making our lives miserable. Trying defined to stuff we're looking for on the page. Right, Marty kids are there cluttered with all this junk too, right? Marty Yeah, it's awful. I frankly, I don't miss it. But it does make it all a little bit cleaner. But back over to Matt, I think you had a question. Sure. Matt I got one more quick one for you before we let you go, Craig. The password that I am going to be required to change in like, I think, a couple of days here at the radio station is among the 8000 different passwords that I have to change all the time. And there are no new recommendations. I understand it from the FBI that we are using passphrases instead of complex passwords. So like instead of d3, 724 dashes, but you know, period, whatever, some crazy combination of letters, whatever we should be using passphrases Why don't you explain that a little bit. Craig Yeah, well, get this quick. I'm going to go into this more on my show on Saturday at 1 pm So you can tune in there. And it's a two-hour show, and we go into quite a bit of depth on some of these things. But I'm glad you brought it up because this is one of the essential pieces of advice in the security world in the last five years. About five years ago, a study came out saying that rather than those types of complicated passwords that you just mentioned is not practical based on today's technology. Here's the bottom line recommendation from the FBI and from the research that's been out there, use a string for random words together, and just put a dash in between each of the terms, or space, whatever you'd like. A passphrase is something that might make sense to you, something that might not make sense at all, but something you can remember, and that's the essential part. Now, if your business, like for instance, Matt, your business might require some more company passwords, you might want to share this article with them. So you still might have to have those crazy ones or numbers, letters, uppercase, lowercase, special symbols, etc. But in reality, those are not the best passwords nowadays, make sure it's at least 15 characters long. Throw a few non-related words. For instance, making America great again would be a lousy password. Marty I thought I was going to use I can't drive 65. So there you go. That's probably not one to use now that you mentioned on the air Marty, that's true. Craig Yeah. But those types of passwords are the best. Matt All right, well, Craig Peterson He is our tech guru. He joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening. Excuse me in the world of technology. Craig one more time promo for the show, when is it? What time where can you listen to it? What are you going to be talking about? Give me that one more time before you go and then, and then we'll say thanks. Craig Okay. I'm not the automaton that Marty is when you ask that question. The show this Saturday, every Saturday from one till three, I talked about the latest in technology with an emphasis on security. We're going to be talking about some of the cloud services that businesses are using thinking that somehow they're safer, right? But how to make it safer. We'll talk a little bit more about the passwords. Ransomware is on the rise right now. Apple Macintoshes. It turns out there's more malware out there and get a few more things as well. But this weekend shows Saturday at one we're kind of focusing on cloud software. Matt All right, his name is Craig Peterson. He is our tech guru. He joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. Today was no exception to that, Craig, thank you very much. And we will talk to you again next week, sir. Craig Gentlemen, take care. Bye-Bye. All right. Appreciate it, Craig. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt. We had a good discussion about the upcoming Nevada Caucus and if they will experience some of the same issues as in Iowa. We also discussed the cybercriminal phishing emails being sent out with the warnings about the Coronavirus that if clicked on will infect your machine and network and also why you should delete apps that you do not use to protect your privacy. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig saying, Wow, cool new technology is going to be great. Hey, I have a buddy that worked for Hillary Clinton and ran this, and he's got this company, and he's got this voting software. That's what tends to happen. And they're looking for the latest the greatest the coolest the neatest and yeah, we can brag about how wonderful this all is. When in reality, it ain't there. Craig Hi everybody Craig Peterson here, of course, and I got into this thing. I don't know, and maybe it was too much this morning about technology. I was comparing what's been happening with some of the technology for voting to laserdiscs and Betamax, etc. But we went this morning with canon Matt talked about that couple of other things, including the Coronavirus. So here we go. Ken Back again 738 on the WGAN morning news with Ken and Matt. It's time now, ladies and gentlemen, to talk to Craig Peterson. Craig Is your phone working now? Ken Did that last-minute somebody was a tech expert series tell me how to fix his phone of a manufacturer.?We have a tech guru, and I would like to ask about that. But I am going to ask you a quick question. You know, we've had some primaries and the Nevada primaries coming up or the caucus, and it's looking like it's going to go smoothly, but there may be some security flaws. Can you tell us as a tech guru, what the hell is going on? Craig Well, you know, this whole thing with the voting and technology and what to do you know, we talked last week about you know, where the governor here in Maine and of course Secretary of State and John Richardson was on and on, I had said, you know, the, I think the smartest thing I think it was brilliant. Stick with an unhackable felt tip pen, Right? I still say that. I also get concerned when the government gets involved with consumer technology, and when they get involved with almost anything. But indeed what technology because the government ends up trying to pick winners or losers, right? And when I'm talking about tech, what's the best tech? And so the government gets involved and says, Oh, this is the best tech, or that's the best tech, and then you dig into it. And you find out that Hillary Clinton's former staffers are the people who founded and we're running the company that came up with a software that just thoroughly discredited the Iowa caucuses. This coming Saturday, as Matt was kind of jumping in there, looks like it's going to be a mess as well. How do we secure our elections because it's not like we can have the normal process of the best technology wins? Well, maybe that's not always the case because I'm sure Ken, you must have bought a Betamax video recorders Ken Betamax? Craig I don't know why anybody would buy a VHS Betamax was so superior to VHS. Ken I have had here this brand new mike 700 Matt Am I correct? Betamax was better technology. There's no question, are we talking about the LaserDisc while we're at it? Oh yeah, that was even better. That was amazing that the laserdiscs amazing size CD that I had, you know, I had to put like seven of them just to watch a movie. Don't touch the surface. I remember for some reason, even though the school was crumbling, and a cockroach once fell from the ceiling and landed on my book. Okay, even with all that, they somehow found a way to buy a LaserDisc player, and I remember the occasional like, you know, Friday, you know, day, where you weren't, going to do anything. Where they would play a movie in class or whatever. They had to, like, take that thing out, and then put a new disk in like five times before the movie was over because it didn't have any sort of capacity to put a film on it. But I'm glad we spent all that money. It was worth it. Craig That's my point. Why did they buy the LaserDisc player? Because it was cool? Yeah, exactly. So now here we are looking at our Super Tuesday coming up. We're looking at all of these other elections that are happening. All of these people, these people, what do you mean, these people are out there saying, Wow, cool. New technology is going to be great. Hey, I have a buddy that worked for Hillary Clinton and ran this. And he's got this company, and he's got this voting software. That's what tends to happen. And they're looking for the latest, the greatest, the coolest, the neatest. And yeah, we can brag about how wonderful this all is. When in reality it ain't there. And now we're looking at another mobile voting app yet another one. It is being used in four different states this year, including West Virginia. What could possibly go wrong here? And this new voting mobile app, it's called Votez V-O-T-E-z. Isn't that cute? And it is just full of some of the most basic flaws ever. But you know what, guys? It's using blockchain technology, which is going to solve all of the world's security problems. This is sloppy. We need to stick with the standard. We need to have a government and a voting system people are confident in. The people say, yeah, our votes were counted. If there was a question about the tabulation or the ballots properly-being cast, you pull the silly things out of a closet, and you have a look at them. Let's not run headfirst. Over the cliff into some cool technology, and then with a whole bunch of Betamax tapes in our closet. Matt Do you know how many beta tapes I have in my closet? Ken I would say probably 500. Craig Yeah, yeah. And you know what those the quality of those is not quite DVD quality. It's still good, but you just can't find anything that well. Ken The other thing I don't have, I don't know where my Betamax is. Anymore. By the way, I don't want you to know I did not. I will bet every FBI instruction. I did not steal any movies. I just want you to know. Craig You know, you've got those things sitting there, Ken, and it was great technology for today, but it's gotten so much easier nowadays. Anyhow, that's my stance on voting. Stick with a piece of paper and unhackable pencil or felt tip pen. Keep the silly things after people have voted those wonderful little cards, keep those for at least a couple of years. Do spot audits, a lot of these states are their secretaries of state are not doing spot audits. I think that they have to do those just again to keep confidence in the system. And Matt, you're probably there with me. I am probably there with you, sir. We're talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us every once a while. Usually, Wednesdays, to talk about what's happening in the world of technology. Speaking of security, I have a lot of Chrome extensions on Chrome, and clearly, I am now surrendering all of my information to everyone. Tell me why. Craig Okay, my here's my general advice to everybody. I gave this out a little earlier in the week as well. The primary recommendation is not to have too many apps on your phones and other devices. Over the last couple of years, we have found that a lot of those apps are leaking data. And last weekend on my show, I talked about how the Department of Homeland Security is buying that data to track people say, Okay, so now we can find out where you are where you have been. It was about six, eight weeks ago, that the New York Times was able to track President Trump's whereabouts as he was moving around, because they were able to follow one of the phones of Secret Service personnel, according to the article that they wrote. This is a real problem. Now we've found that there are more than 500 browser extensions that have been secretly uploading our personal and private data to websites that are then selling it. The number one most evil thing to put onto your browser is one of those browser extensions, and it's a tab type thing. That gives you quicker searches and tells you there's a deal on this page on this site right now. A lot of people have installed those things. Well, if you have and I have seen so many people with this, get rid of them now. Delete your browser extensions, these Chrome extensions that you're not using, or that you don't need. Now, I've got some tutorials coming out in a couple of weeks about three Google Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Opera, browser extensions that I absolutely love, that are not stealing your data. I've got some training on how to know what's what. You know if that if you guys have one of these Chrome browsers, it is just overloaded with extensions. You got to delete these things, because some of them are evil. Some of them are even mining Bitcoin for bad guys in Eastern Europe, and you don't even know it. You know, here we are talking about having the privatization. I shouldn't say, of the two major electric companies in Maine, to save Maine taxpayers are ratepayers, in this case, some money, which is always great to save money. Still, we got to have an in-depth look at some of these things. And we have some of the highest electric rates in the country. Analyze things up. Why do we want to allow the browser extensions that will show us a cute little cat video every day? What do we want to have that browser extension burning our electricity to make Bitcoin money for somebody else? We've got to stop doing this sort of thing. Just delete any apps you're using. Remove the browser extensions you don't absolutely need and be a little safer online. Matt We are talking to our tech guru Craig joins us every Wednesday at 730 dot com. Get the information firsthand or to listen to him on w ga and in the afternoon on Saturday at one o'clock. Before we let you go, Craig, I don't know if you've heard about the Coronavirus, and please do not play the Mexican hat dance. Craig Whatever I do, I will not play the Mexican hat dance. Ken I was the last thing I will do. I will not play it. I don't want to trigger. Any technological issues for Mr. Peterson Craig One of my sons is a teetotaler. There was a joke going around about something about lime and salt being the cure. But anyway. Yeah, be very, very careful, everybody. I'm glad you brought this up. Ken, we're out of time. So really, really quickly. The bad guys always Take advantage of things in the news. And one of the big things in the news now, and I'll be talking about this more on my show on Saturday at one, is the Coronavirus, Of course, you know it is called now called covid-19. Don't open emails saying hey, here's a tracker for the Coronavirus. Don't do any of this stuff. There are so many fake emails and now fake text messages coming out from these people. It helped us to get overwhelmed. That's a really really bad thing. Don't do it. People the bad guys are saying Coronaviruses that trying to get your open stuff. If you want to g, the Coronavirus goes online to cdc.gov simple site to remember cdc.gov, not CDC dash org.gov. There are so many fake sites out there, just cdc.gov right at the top they've got stuff on covid-19 this respiratory disease, and they have trackers. Still, you know what right now you're more likely to die from the flu, and we are at the height of regular flu season, and they're even tracking that@cdc.gov so there you can keep an eye on everybody. Ken All right, that's Greg Peterson ladies and gentlemen. I appreciate it as always, Craig, and we will talk to you again very soon. Craig Take care, guys. Bye. Thanks, all right. Why don't we take a quick break quick Craig 13:27 A Shout out to all of you guys out there listening to me, of course, every week it kind of goes up, which is terrific, and it's so so appreciated. I had contact by the way from one of our listeners, a longtime listener, and a bit of a friend frankly always enjoy chatting with him. He's a little bit older kind of like me, and he has been out there freaking out about what to do now with his career. He went to a small school that taught cybersecurity stuff for a few months and put some money into that. Now he's out looking for a job. Is anybody else in that kind of a boat, because I think this might make a fascinating series or segment or segments or however it turns out for the listeners here, what if you are a little bit older in life? You are looking to change careers, maybe, perhaps you've always been interested in the whole security side of things. And you want to get involved with that. Let me know just send an email to me at Craig peterson.com. And we'll kind of go from there and see where this takes us. But I find this fascinating I I want to help you guys and gals out there with, you know, making your life a little bit better and helping you to make other people's lives a little bit better too because I suspect you're a lot like me, frankly. And that's why you're such great and regular listeners. Anyhow, take care and everybody. We're getting closer and closer to having some of those tutorials ready. I got another one edited yesterday, he says making a sigh, Oh my gosh this has been so painful I've had to learn a different video editor because I when I was using just can't handle the type of content that I'm generating here for these tutorials. It is on some of the best things you can do for cybersecurity for your family, for your business all free, even the tools tutoring alone are free. So this is going to be a huge one I think for pretty much everybody anyways, me at Greg Peterson calm or sign up for my mailing list just at Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. Take care, everybody. We'll be back with a weekend show again this week. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and as you know today is Primary Day in New Hampshire it is the Big Day for our State Sport - Politics.  That means it is the day to address voter manipulation, voter fraud, low tech solutions and why apps are not the answer. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You've got this free little cute little game, isn't this fun to play? Well, that game is tracking you everywhere you're going. They sell that information to Marketers. Now the Department of Homeland Security is even buying that data of where you are which apps you're using. Just because you have these apps installed on your phone. Craig Good morning, Craig Peterson, here. That's me with Danny, and it was pretty much all about voting technologies, the new stuff that's coming out the problems we have right now. And my predictions for not just this election, but frankly for the next two or three presidential cycles. Danny Yes, it is Tuesday. 840 You know what time that is? It is time for tech talk guru Craig Peterson. Hi Craig. Craig Hey, good morning, Danny. Craig I've got a little clarification about info from one of your former guests this morning. An earlier guest, I should say this morning. He was talking quite rightly by the about all of these apps and what's been in the news, in fact, just this week about apps and how dangerous they can be how they've been tracking, Google just removed a whole bunch of extensions from the Google Chrome Store. I want to go into slightly more detail if you want it to be secure. Don't download an app you don't need. Another thing I've said forever, Danny, is that you should go through your phone, at least every month, and delete apps you're not using. You know, most of us have a lot of apps. I think the last stat I SAW said that about 95% of the apps that we've downloaded only get used once. It's like we're never using them. Delete them off of your phone, off of your tablet, whatever it is you have. I want to add one more thing from a safety standpoint. Even if you are using an app fairly regularly, go ahead and delete it anyway, and then reinstall it. When you reinstall it now, it's going to ask for permission. You're going to be able to have a closer look at that app that again. It may be one you use every day like Google Maps. Believe that when you reinstall it and pay close attention to the permissions that it wants to access. By the way, just because it doesn't ask for permission to share some of your information doesn't mean it's not going to, all right. But as a general rule, those permissions are correct. It's more confusing on Android than it is iOS. Android kind of pushes you on to you the decision about whether or not you should be installing that app. On the iOS side, it's a lot more straightforward than Apple's a little bit better about it. He had some super points. But I go one step further. Just delete the silly things, mainly if you're not using them, as you mentioned, bringing up the app and permitting it. Danny So what kind of permission should people be looking for Craig to allow it not to? Craig Yeah, there you go. Well, let's have a look at the most costly divorce in history, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago. Right. So you have Bezos. Yeah, exactly. Billions of dollars in a divorce settlement. How did that all start? Well, that started because he was using WhatsApp, which is an app that is now part of Facebook's family. What WhatsApp had done here is accepted a video, and Jeff Bezos had allowed WhatsApp access to his photos and his videos. Even though you might think, oh, what's the harm and giving it access to my pictures or videos, maybe you're not going to get the virus the Jeff Besos got, but the app has access to your photos, your videos or other things. If there's a bug in the app, if there's something malicious going on, you're going to lose that data. What should you give an app permission to do? That? I think one of the worse things you can do is to permit access to know your location. That data is used and sold. You know, you've got this free little cute little game. Isn't this fun to play? And that game is tracking you everywhere you're going it's been sold to Marketers. Now the Department of Homeland Security is even buying that data of where you are which apps you're using, just because you have these apps installed on your phone. In answer directly to your question, do not give them access to your location unless you absolutely want to. I'm even reluctant to give Google Maps access to my location. Right? But slightly paranoid on that front. As far as photos and videos and things, again, just don't give them access. I think we're at the point now, where the bottom line is, you should only have a half a dozen apps on your phone on your tablet. And they should be apps from the big guys. You know Apple's apps, Microsoft apps, Google's apps, they are moderately trustworthy. And pretty much everything else. I think you shouldn't say bye-bye to them. ya know, Danny Ya know, that's kind of it sounds like a good plan. We are talking with Tech Talk Guru Craig Peterson, all about apps, and the security behind apps and then allowing permissions and them using your data to sell, and basically, you become the client. Correct. So these free apps not necessarily free, buddy. Craig No, they're not. And here's another trick, right? If you want to use something, and the app is available, most of the time, there's a website you can go to instead. So, for instance, you might download The let's use Iheart as an example. All right, so IHeart Radio has an app. I use it all the time, right? I'm, I listened to it to listen to my favorite radio shows listen to the gym in the morning. Iheart also has a website that you can visit. Okay, so rather than having the app, just use the browser that comes with your phone, use Safari, which is a good browser on iOS, use one of the Firefox browsers from Mozilla, those are all very good. If someone's twisting your arm with a gun to your head, use Google Chrome. Use the browser to get the data you want to you can stream music from your browser, you can listen to it hard from your browser, you can do all of the reading of news that you might want to do from your browser and avoid the cute apps. Aren't they wonderful? Aren't they fun? But you know what? There are so many Very few apps that can be classified as safe, that it's just not worth it. Danny Speaking of Google Chrome, speaking of extensions, speaking of people, basically using your uploading your private information, the Google Chrome extension, Craig. There were some issues there aren't there. Craig Yeah, absolutely. Now I've got some tutorials coming out starting next week, and about some extensions that you might want to use, and they will improve your browsing experience will improve your security, etc. What I think they're talking about here is a problem, Danny, where 500 Chrome extensions, Google Chrome extensions, were identified as secretly uploading people's data, millions of times. These things get downloaded. It's incredible what's happened, more than 1.7 million installations. So again, I still know people who are downloading browser bar extensions for Google Chrome for all of their different browsers, right. And it's a little browser bar extension that gives you a feature to search quickly or watch the stock market, etc. Those are the evilest things and prone to guys. Don't install, never install these little browser extensions that are just going to show you one or two things, because so many of them are sketchy. Many are fraudulent. Some of them are advertising as a service. Some of them will automatically, just from your browser, be clicking on ads on other websites you are not even visiting. Yes, they can click on an advertisement on a site you're not visiting just to increase their revenue. The estimate is that 40 to 60% of all paid advertising Non the internet pay per click advertising 20 60% of that is fraudulent. It's these. Yeah, these extensions, Danny, that we're installing that is supposedly giving us some sort of advantage or some neat little thing. Don't install those. Make sure if you're on my email list, you'll find out about this next week. But make sure you are on that list, which is just a Craig Peterson dot com. You can attend these tutorials for free. I'm not selling anything, right. It's all about the extensions that are going to make you safe. Not these 500 identified as making you less safe. You know what, Danny, some of them are even doing Bitcoin mining using your computer and slowing down your computer. They're making your browsing experience horrible because it's so slow. Things are happening in the background that you don't know are being done. They're using your electricity. We have some of the highest electric rates in the nation here in the northeast. And it's all for their benefit and gain and nothing for you. I'm glad you brought it up. Danny, don't install an extension unless you have to. It's kind of like the app thing. Danny Yeah, we try to keep yourself as safe as possible. But something you have to do is make sure it's something that isn't going to come and backfire on you ultimately. Because we are talking with our tech expert Craig Peterson. Craig, we only have a few minutes left. But the one story I did want to get into here, the mobile voting app. Who would have thought this is ever a good idea? Craig heard off and on about what's going to happen Saturday in Nevada with their caucuses. They paid I think it was $60,000 to the same company that completely messed up the Iowa caucuses and they're saying yeah, we're going to do it. No, we're not going to do it. You're going to do it with the latest I heard yesterday was there not going to do it again. But there is an app called a vote to VOA t z. And this is something that supposedly allows you to vote from home vote from overseas. They've been trying to sell this to the military, for our military personnel stationed overseas. And this is crazy. The election is promoting its use of blockchain technology, which is like a vast buzzword nowadays. And people associate blockchain technology with absolutely safe, nothing could go wrong. They ignore the man behind the curtain. It is not secure. There are four states right now that are still planning on using this votes app that is being used in West Virginia. And it has some of the most basic security flaws in it. It allows other people to Steve votes intercept votes change votes, as they're being transmitted from the mobile phones to the company's voting server. If you can This is absolutely crazy. MIT put together a research paper that was released last Thursday. We're not there yet. Don't use these things. You know, the only thing that's really safe is a pencil or maybe a felt tip pen. Because you can't hack, a felt tip pen and a piece of paper. Right, much harder to do, obviously, this imbalance studying before, but you can do it on a wholesale basis like you can with some of these voting apps. Danny Yeah, what's this one right here? Just say someone to be able just to change votes like that. It seems as though the security and some of the features and noted have a voting type app. They have far away from Craig. Craig Oh, yeah, end up partner of Homeland Security's warning against it New York Times, even covered on it. They were the first ones to report this research out of MIT. We're going to see a lot of problems of voting over the next few cycles, maybe ten plus years, frankly, as you know, You know, the idiocy tends to tie down in the money, right? Who owns the company, for instance, with the backhoe debacle that happened overnight Iowa, the disaster that was going to happen this weekend in Nevada and still may have been that company that made that software to tally the votes was owned and operated by Hillary Clinton staffers. Okay. So, yeah, accurately. And now the democratic Democratic Party says, Oh, it's great. We know you, Hey, buddy. Yeah, we're going to do it for you, right? Until we can get rid of this phony crony capitalism stuff, which exists all over the place, and we make real decisions. This voting stuff just isn't going to work. Right. And you know, Danny, I hold a zero trust. The government's going to be able to get this right. But you know, another five to 10 years, I think, maybe we will have a reasonably smooth roll road ahead of us. There's a $10 million funding project that came out of the Department of Defense to make an unhackable voting system. So I got my fingers crossed because I know these guys are on the right track. Danny Well, I'm sure when they come up with something, you'll have a forest Craig Craig is always some great stuff, unfortunately, to get to everything. If somebody wants to hear more, how do they do so? Craig Well, you can go to Craig Peterson, dot com or they can text Danny, to me at 855-385-5553. That's 855-385-5553. Danny As always, data rates do apply. Craig, thank you so much for the time. We'll talk to you next week. Craig Take care, Danny, bye-bye. Danny It's Craig, always with some great stuff can be scary. But Craig gets us through it. As he said, watch out for your extensions. Watch out for the app to clean up the apps, and yeah, what's the make you think that Hillary Clinton can get a voting app? Right? But yeah, our servers were secured in New York. Yeah, okay. Everyone believes that one. Anyways, I'll take one last time out. Well. Craig  We've been working on this now for six weeks, eight weeks, we've got some fantastic free tutorials coming up. Frankly, these are going to improve your security posture. By what at least 90%. I'm serious about that when you are online, so it's going to help with security transformation plus a course and everything else. So free stuff, and some paid material, but you are going to love it all. I guarantee it. I've never been so excited about something before. Anyhow, keep an eye out. Make sure you're signed up. Craig Peterson, dot com slash subscribe. We'll be back tomorrow. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and as you know today is Primary Day in New Hampshire it is the Big Day for our State Sport - Politics.  That means it is the day to address voter manipulation, voter fraud, low tech solutions and why apps are not the answer. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You know, they don't release their source code, they hold everything close to the chest. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure people don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it; therefore, it's safe. That is never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes we could put a whole quarter together and how that poor people about it. Here's how not to do a deployment of software. Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here, of course, on with Mr. Jim Polito. How could we be here on New Hampshire voting day without talking about politics and whether or not voting machines are hackable? So let's get into it. Jim Polito There are multiple levels to this one in New Hampshire. But this is important because We're going to Iowa. And we're going to the polls, the technical and have an election joining us now, our tech talk guru and good friend, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig Good morning. It sounds like you're going to hit for that Bernie screen there. Yeah. Jim Yeah, yeah. You were not going to do one of those. Hey, can we talk about election technology? I mean, what the heck happened in Iowa? I mean, really? Yeah, I know. We talked about it before, but what the heck happened? Craig Yeah, this is an excellent example of everything you should not do when it comes to launching an app when it comes to rolling out new software, whatever it is. The Iowa Democratic Party man, everybody in there. Should be Jeff can there's no question about it. You know, I work with the FBI, and I'm part of the FBI infragard program. And the FBI is excellent about trying to make sure that everybody's safe. Did you know that Homeland Security, the FBI reached out to the Iowa Democratic Party saying, "Hey, guys, we know you have an app, we know that you're looking to use this for all of the results and we are here to help." What you had in Iowa was a bunch of people that have never rolled out an app before. They built it quickly. Jim, I am talking about hastily built, it wasn't load tested. We already talked about the fact that it was made entirely by insiders of Democratic Party higher-ups inside. It's everything you wouldn't want. You know, if I were them, I would have had a completely dry run on this thing, which they kind of did. They had little test logins for people. And the way they did their dry run was minimal. And this is a dry run, use different account different ways of logging in a different place to log in than the real one. It was just a total disaster. Jim I'll tell you, you know, this is the second time that the Democrats have had a problem with something it refused the help of the FBI. Remember, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the hacking of the DNC and John Podesta's emails being leaked, okay. They didn't want any help with that, either. Then we have this happening. Now the first one, I think, might have been Russian hackers (phishers). This one, they hacked it up all by themselves and still didn't ask for help from the FBI. And here's the question, Could someone, a bad player from another country, have hacked into that app screwed the whole thing up? I mean, we don't have any evidence yet that it did happen. But the question is, could it have happened? Craig Well, and the answer to that is obviously, yes. One of the big things that we've been doing for years here in the application development business remember, I built some of the most prominent internet properties that ever existed. Jim You helped to invent the internet. That's not a joke, people. He wrote code that is still in use. Craig Yeah, exactly. And some of the big ones like the Big Yellow Super Pages, you've probably heard about that. Yeah. You know that these important things and one of the things that we do to help make sure The safe software systems are secure are we use something called open-source software. And open-source software is software where everyone can look at the code. So, for instance, the best application out there, if you want an end to end security is called signal app. It's free. The source code for this thing is available freely on the internet for anyone to inspect. And that's the opposite of what again, the Democratic Party did in Iowa, which is the used what would be called closed source, something in the industry we call security through obscurity. Jim And look at how well that's worked for Microsoft. Right. Craig You know, they, they don't release their source code but hold everything close. They say, Well, you know, it's obscure. People don't know what we're doing or how we're doing it. Therefore it says that is Never the case, and things are starting to turn around. So there are so many mistakes that we could put a whole course together at Harvard, for people about here's how not to do deploy software. Jim We're talking with our good friend Tech Talk Guru Craig Peterson. At the end of the segment, we're going to tell you how you can get your hands on some of his stuff. Craig will not bother you, so don't worry. So, Craig, that could have happened. They didn't use open source stuff. What about the rest of our election? I mean, they're, they're going to the polls in New Hampshire right now. I mean, can our election be hacked? Craig Yeah, that's a great question. And I think everybody's minds right now. I'm going to be on a TV station up in Burlington, Vermont. Speaking of obscure Jim Very good. Very good. Craig I wonder if the Soviet flag is still on the wall? I doubt it. Jim I wouldn't doubt it. Oh. Craig That's what we're going delve into because I think it's a question everybody's mind. There are multiple levels of hacks or numerous targets for hacks when it comes to our systems in the election. Now, I have to say, New Hampshire is what many people would call a Luddite. New Hampshire says, Hey, listen, we're going to go low tech. And you know what, that's my answer. They have resisted all these fancy computer systems, all of these new-fangled machines. In New Hampshire, when you vote, you use a pencil or a felt tip pen on a piece of paper. Yeah. And that's the only thing that they could hack. Then those ballots are kept so they a manual count can be done if needed. Back in 2000, New Hampshire had the option of using the the the hanging chads technique that used in Florida and New Hampshire avoided that. And now so here are the different levels you could hack the voting machines themselves and New Hampshire, again, is doing a great job. The not connected networked, let alone the internet. So that's step one. The FBI has been warning about is how Secretary of State's offices, websites, because what's been happening is a that is just crazy here. But those websites are being compromised by places like Ukraine, Russia. And others over the years and obviously, China. How are those used? For the ultimate reporting in some states, the local county chairs performing the counts, upload them directly to the website. The data goes on there. That is another place for hacks to occur. And then here's yet another opportunity for hacking, and that is those websites show faults resolved because nationally, their parties are going to the website to the sector state offices and pulling the final results. Then they can also be hacked up on the federal level because, again, they're also using computers. There are so many ways for hacking to happen, but I can feel comfortable in saying that the FBI is keeping a very close eye on this, Homeland Security is keeping a very close eye on this. And, you know, I think we can be moderately comfortable. Those types of hacks aren't happening. But then there's the non-hack hack, which is they buy advertising and try and get people to change their minds. Now, that happened last time around, but the Russians managed to buy ads to try and get your change your vote after the election occurred. Right. So it's right left and center in this day and age, Jim. Jim It is just crazy that the people, the democrats, in this case, won't take the help of the FBI. In protecting these things. I agree with you low tech is the best. Low tech is the best. Sure. You could have some person working in a clerk's office stuff the ballot box, okay, but you couldn't have a political hack that would overturn a question. The Presidential election it would be more difficult to coordinate that many people to do it. Craig Yes. And it's way more difficult today than it was just two years ago or four years ago because they're starting to figure it out. And many states are ditching those completely electronic voting machines. By the way, here, here's something we got to get changed. We have a federal law that requires every state to have electronic voting machines that can be used by the, you know, hearing impaired, sight impaired, etc. I agree we have to provide something that allows these people to vote, but again why not a low tech solution. We should assign a poll worker to help them fill out the ballot, as opposed to having a machine that essentially has a touchpad, which is hackable. Just last year, we had our black hat conference in Vegas. There they had a bunch of voting machines sitting there for hackers to try their skills. Within minutes, they were able to hack into every one of them, and even a high schooler was able to hack them. Jim Well, that's what you get, you know? I mean, there's, there are people like you who get it, you know, when they're very talented, but then we've got these kids who are growing up in a world where they can figure this out. Craig Yes, yeah. And, and it's a feather in their cap to their career. You know, we just had a bill passed in the Senate. That was, I think it's started in the Senate and then sent to the house. It called for white hat hackers. Good guys to try and hack federal government systems. Well, where do you get your chomps to be a white hat hacker? A lot of these kids will look at it and say all I was just a kid. Yeah, I was hacking businesses and government websites and, and I was able to do all of this. Now all of a sudden they get a job in the federal government that's well paid because they were bad guys when they were, you know, young. I get it. Jim All right. So, where can folks get more information from you? I take it that they text my name, Jim, to this number. Craig Absolutely. Couple of ways to do it. You can just go to Craig Peterson calm, or you can text Jim to 855-385-5553. That's just text, Jim to 855-385-5553, standard data and text rates apply. Jim Craig will not try to hack you. And Craig, we love having you every Tuesday at this time. Craig Hey, thanks, Jim. Jim All right. Have a good one, buddy. When we return a fight Word. You're listening, Craig Thanks for being with us. I have been so busy along with my team. You know, I've been saying this for about a month and, and it's right. We have some fantastic free training coming up. We have a course also coming up. It is going to be a killer month. Yes, indeed. That's kind of a hint, a killer month. All right, anyway, take care, everybody. We will be back. Just don't expect as much output from me this week with lives and everything else. Take care. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt. We had a good discussion about The Iowa Caucus app fiasco, Business Email Compromise, and Deep Fakes what it is, who is at risk and what we can do about it. I went into detail about Passwords and Password Managers and even two-factor authentication and why you need to use them. So here we go with Ken and Matt. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig The problem we see this daily when I get notices from the FBI. It all boils down to personal hygiene, just keeping your data reasonably safe on your part. Craig Hi, everybody, Craig Peterson here. It is Wednesday morning, and that means I was, of course, on with Ken and Matt. We had quite a little discussion because I had provided them with eight different articles. All of them were about major security problems this week. That's why we got into precisely what you can do to get yourself to the 95 percentile when it comes to keeping your account safe online. So here we go with Ken and Matt. Ken It's time to talk to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us now. As always, at this time, to talk about what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, How are you this morning? Craig Hi gentlemen, good morning. How about those Iowa caucuses? Did they try out the app beforehand? Ken Of course, that is an app that I think Hillary controlled. Craig Yes, the rumors are flying because in fact and ex-staffers of Hillary Clinton, Matt yes, yes. Craig So um, you have, I mean, story after story after story about this thing about Pegasus, and then you have this travel act coming online in the gap. Microsoft Excel security alert. Matt, Should we just stop using computers completely? Craig Oh, man. Well, good. You know it. I have thought about this a lot. What do we do? I think we've got an enormous problem. Here because it's almost like overload, right? Where every week there's new, there are new hits on us. Got Evil Corp. I don't know, did you watch it? Where's it called with Malik Mr. Robot? With one Malik, right or Yeah, that's the guy's name, an actor. Ken Anyways, or do you know? Matt What is it? Rami Malik's Craig Rami. Oh, Robbie, man, I thought the first name was Malik. Oh, yeah. Rami Oh, yes, yes. Joe, he's in this. He's a hacker right. He's all in his head. Weird things are happening, but he's battling Evil Corp., And there's an evil corporation in the news. And it's using Microsoft Excel to deliver this payload this nasty thing. So what are people supposed to do can and it's, are we getting burned out? Just like Nancy Pelosi rips up the speech and you just roll your eyes because it's yet another partisan thing. It is, however, another week with more hacks. But what I think it boils down to isn't just not using computers first of all use them safely. You know the stuff I would say your mother told you, but of course, she did. Because this is this has been many years in the coming. But the stuff you know, to use different passwords on different websites. Use a password manager like one password or LastPass the necessary things, and it's like you don't want to get coronavirus while swash your hands and don't cut your face and conference knees into your elbow. Basic stuff, and you know what the problem can we see real, and I see this every day I'm getting notices from the FBI, but it all boils down to personal Hi Jean, just keeping your data reasonably safe on your part. You know, use a few different email addresses. Don't always use the same learn, have a Google address, but have a couple of others as well. Don't use your business computer for personal things. Don't think of VPN is going to save you because of VPN does minimal things and can make your business network even less safe. Yes, I said it less reliable using the VPN. And what we see this week too, is a vast right. You know, my opinion about antivirus software? Yeah, it is zero percent effective against modern attacks zero percent. And a vast came out this week. And it turns out, and they were selling arrows. Everything you were doing online everything to the highest bidder millions of dollars, so you searched on Google thoroughly, Avast sold it to whoever wanted to pay for it. You went to a porn site Avast told them, anybody, who pays for it all about it. You did anything on your web browser, anything on your computer because remember your antivirus software has access to everything on your computer, have vastly sold that information. So I've said forever. And Matt, I heard you chime in there. But how many times have you even said we are the product when it comes to sites like Facebook? Correct? Ken Yes. Anytime is the answer to your question. Craig Yeah, exactly. And what we're talking about here is free VPN. And free. Free websites aren't free Avast. Where's anti-malware software is not free. So This is stuff I, you know, can I think we've mentioned a million times, and I keep, I hate to flog a dead horse, right. Matt We like horses. Craig But we just have to be more careful. And I bring these things up every week to try and just try and drive the point home. We got to be more cautious because now we're seeing warnings coming out again from the FBI about these deep fakes, which we've talked about before. And I don't remember I know I had this in my stack of stuff last year, last quarter last year. Still, there was a company that had been bought by a German company. The CFO got a call from his boss over in the German company, telling him to wire funds over to the German company, right? He provided him all the information. He'd met this guy in Germany before he talked to him on the phone. He got the instructions, and he did it. It is a form of deep fakes that get used in these business scams. Where it sounds like the CEO. It is not just an email that comes from the CEO's hacked mailbox. It sounds like the CEO in the video, and now we see where it looks like it too. They can't do that live yet, but it's coming. So everybody listening takes a few of just a few minutes a day and start going in changing your account password just the simplest thing you can do it are either you guys using password managers right now. Matt Frankly, No, I'm not. Ken I don't know I like to discount all the advice given to me by Craig Peterson. I have not really no. Okay, right now, go online, sorry, something comes up on my computer say do you want me to save this password? I suppose that's not a password manager, right? You're right, man, because it's your browser giving your password to Google. I trust them. Craig Go to one password dot com right now. The digit one password.com. Check it out. I want you to do this. What does it do? What it does is it ties into your browser, so it can fill out the form for you when that browser is asking you to log in. It provides the latest newest technology that's coming out that's replacing passwords slowly but surely. And it will generate passwords for you to share passwords, multi-word passwords, so one password calm now what I love about it is it works for me. It works for my family, and it works for my business, so it has multiple vaults that you can share. Because here's your next problem. What do I do? In the past, my problem was remembering the password, and once I remember it, then it changes. Craig Yes, you remember one password, and that's the one password. Now you can I have before you go any further corrections? Ken Can I ask one question, though, using a service like that the one password, if you will, what is protecting those institutions from hacking and all of your passwords getting stolen? I mean, how does that not occur at some point when some enterprise with hacker decides that they'd like to have your access to everything you own? Craig Well, one password does not keep any of your passwords unencrypted. And it uses a high level like Pentagon plus level security for all your passwords, so they never leave your computer in what's called cleartext. So there is no way for one password to get Adam last passes the other one to look at Last pass, they have a cheaper version. That's quite good as well. But hopefully, that answers your question. They never get your passwords. They're only on your local computer. You can share them between all of your computers using like iCloud or Dropbox or many other things. But they are always heavily encrypted, which is phenomenal. It is one of the simplest and best things you can do. Because having a complex password that's different on every site number by complex, I don't mean upper-lower digits, special characters, or anything I mean like a 20-30 character long password which LastPass will generate for you so well one password. Having a password like that makes it almost impossible for the bad guys to break into your town. They're not even going to bother while they might be Try, right, but it'll take some more than 100 years to crack your passwords. And they're only stored in your machine, and encrypted, it is easy to use. And with your MacBook Pro that you have can, you can use one password. And when you go to a website, you can say, Okay, give me give him to give that site my login to one password. And with your MacBook Pro, it'll do the fingerprint if you wanted to, instead of you having to type in your one password. There are some helpful integrations, and it's going to work on your smartphones. It's available for Android and Windows as well as Macs and iOS. But guys, you know, this is something you have to do. So I'm going to next week. I'm going to ask you whether or not you had it, and you got it done. Matt So what's the name of this thing again? Craig The one I like best is one password is just the digit one password pa ss w or d dot com Ken Come on, you don't use that one point, to be honest with you. Craig The other one, I like his last pass, you'll find it lastpass.com. But I prefer one password personally. So get it done to change one or two passwords. The way I started doing this years ago when I started using password managers as to when I went to a site to type in my password, I type it in, and I'd immediately go into one password and create a new password for that site. And then, once you've done that, start using two-factor authentication. And one password has that built-in as well. Where it generates a code. Have you seen these little things before where every 30 seconds the code changes, you know? So it'll let you do that, if you o do those two things, you're almost wholly guaranteed never get hacked. It's that simple. Two-factor authentication, one password with a different password for Every site and I only have to remember one password. Ken Yes, exactly. Okay, peace. Matt So Well, I think I'd add that one, check. Ken Anyway, that is your update, ladies gentlemen from Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us every Wednesday at this time to go over what's happening in the world of technology. We appreciate it. As always, Craig and we will talk to you again next week. Craig Gentlemen, take care. Bye-bye. Matt Excellent. All right. Well, why don't we go back into the newsroom? Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed the debacle that was the Iowa Caucuses and what it means to you as the election season moves forward. In short, test, test, test. So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Tied into Hillary's campaign staffers that were paid 10s of thousands of dollars by the Iowa Democratic Party. $60,000 was paid to them by the Nevada Democratic Party, who was caucusing in a couple of weeks as well. Craig Morning everybody, Craig Peterson here on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning heard throughout New England, every state New England can listen to and does listen to his show. Amazing guy. I love this guy. We spent time discussing the Iowa caucuses and the software they were using as well as the people behind that software. I will give you some advice about what can you do? It turns out that there are some significant allegations about some Anti-Virus software that was spying on you. So here we go. Jim Well, here we have Craig Peterson on the roster. It's just incredible because we've got a complete meltdown of the Democrat Party in Iowa. Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe it's, well, like Hillary behind the scenes trying to destroy Bernie Sander's chances again, like she did last time. I just think it's general and competence. Let's get in the most competent person when it comes to the internet. This on safer internet day in the US. It's just baffling to me. And so today, the rumors are flying. You know, they're taking pictures of the forms, and they had filled out these caucus chairs of them. They're scorers, and they're texting them, and they had phone line shut up in case there was a problem and the phone line, they had three different numbers people could call, they can't get through the phone lines aren't working, right. It's just a total disaster just like Obamacare was it would But doesn't that invite you to know, now I'm going to ask you to step out of your tech talk Guru shoes and stepping into the ones of you know, being a commentator. Doesn't that invite people saying, Is this a conspiracy? I mean, like we were joking about Hillary and there are connections to Hillary, basically anything in democratic politics is somehow connected to her. But isn't this just inviting the crazy claims of you know, Bernie's people who I've already seen on social media, you know, saying this is another attempt to get Bernie knocked out? Craig Yeah, well, I have. I've had a slogan for four decades now. And that is to "Never attribute to malice that which can easily be attributed to incompetence." So if you see incompetence, just say, okay, you know, this is incompetence. Negligent incompetence, but you know incompetence. Jim Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not saying that this point anything that says this is a Hillary thing or even that indicates it is. Craig Still, the rumors are flying because, again, we have this company tied into Hillary's campaign staffers that were paid 10s of thousands of dollars by the Iowa Democratic Party. By the way, the Nevada Democratic Party also paid $60,000 was paid to them, and they are caucusing in a couple of weeks as well. So it's just total incompetence, frankly, Jim We're talking with Tech Talk guru, Craig Peters, on gave us a great explanation. To the mess in Iowa. Now Craig, Let's move on to sup today's safer internet day in the US, and I know that's something you support because your feelings are, hey, passwords, security, things like that. You should always, always be mindful of it not just today, every day, but I want to ask you about something else. The secretive market, the little secret market that is selling my web browsing history. Somebody's making an awful lot of money off of what I searched for our day. Craig Yeah, this is I think kind of interesting because it goes back to you know, you know, I'm always talking about, you know, how to set your passwords what to do, etc. This ties into something else that I've been saying forever. And that is nothing free on the internet. Yes. Nothing right, and so what's come out right now? Is this anti-virus giant called Avast who makes anti-virus software now I'm inserting something here I am pausing discussion business second? And the virus software is zero percent effective against two days attacks on the internet. Wow, zero percent. Okay. So well, let's just say that okay, but antibonding this giant Avast has had a product. They've since canceled it since news Lee doubt was, again, one of these free anti-virus pieces of software out there. And they've got four has 435 million active users and JumpShot, which is this product she has it has data from 100 million places. Allegedly there is what's been going on, reported by motherboard and PC mag. But your Google searches, look upon locations, GPS coordinates, Google Maps, LinkedIn pages, different companies, where did you go? Which specific YouTube videos? Have you watched people visiting porn websites, all of that was tracked by them? That data was uploaded from your computer and sold to advertisers and anybody willing to pay ultimately, collectively, millions of dollars. And it was called an all click feed to track everything users were doing from this free software. Jim Wow. So they then take that information, probably explains why, you know, I get all of these ads for things I've either looked at or had somewhat of an interest in in the past week. I mean, you know, it's crazy. The kind of stuff that comes my way in terms of ads. It's like they know me ultimately. Craig Yeah, it's shocking. And I can tell you how many times I think one of the most common questions is how many times I've had people ask Craig, and he's my phone listening to me. Yeah, and believe me, Facebook, etc., etc. But we're using some computer technology. Now the Colin and artificial intelligence, that term has morphed, I would not call it that. I'd call it machine learning, but they're calling it AI. And now we know they have been harvesting all of this. Those people that have the free or even the cheap VPN services that have a free or cheap anti-virus service. All of that data is getting collected, being put together be mixed in a pot with this machine learning software that says Well, people that watch this video, go to the websites that are looking for a job, etc., etc. are likely to be looking for this pair of shoes. And now you get an act an ad for a couple of shoes, and you wonder why you got it because you weren't looking for shoes. But you know what, those are pretty cool shoes. Yeah, that is it. Jim Craig, quickly, we have just about a minute left. What can people do to protect themselves from this? Craig Man, I am worried that people have just kind of given up because we hear every day about this sort of thing happening. But the bottom line is Be very careful when you're online free is not free. You're the product. Use a web browser like Firefox that's quite well secure. Chrome and never use Chrome again, unless you are forced to -- do not use Microsoft Edge browser. Stick with Firefox and Safari. Right now. Those are the two big ones Safari is an apple Yeah, and those are the two big ones that we know are not tracking you. Jim We are talking to Craig Peterson. You hear that information, folks, what a great day to have him here. But you can have him with you all the time. If you text My name, Jim, to this number 855-385-5553. That's 855-385-5553 standard data, and text rates apply. That will get you information from Craig Peterson and Craig Peterson. Will not bother you will not hack; you will not try to sell you anything. Craig, fantastic segment. I look forward to talking with you next week. Craig Take care, Jim, Jim Take care. All right, a crucial final word. When we return. You're listening to the Jim Pulido show your safe space. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt. We had a good discussion about Business Email Compromise, what it is, who is at risk and what we can do about it. Then it was onto the Jeff Bezos Phone Hack. So here we go with Ken and Matt. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig They scraped every picture on the internet that they could get their hands on. That is against the usage of rules and agreements of all these websites. If you had a picture posted on Facebook that was publicly accessible or on Twitter Craig Good morning, everybody. Of course, this is Craig Peterson on WGAN, up in Maine, on their morning drive show. There is some very concerning stuff going on to news statistics out that we talked about this week about fishing and BEC type email attacks. We are going to get into it right now. Ken We are back ladies and gentlemen it is 738 on the WGAN morning news with Ken and Matt on Wednesday, which means it's time to talk to Craig Peterson, our tech guru, to go over all the things about technology that affect our daily lives here today. Craig, How are you this morning? Craig Good morning, doing well Ken Well, let's start talking about some techniques, shall we? How many organizations last year, got phished, successfully? Craig Yeah, this is a huge trend that's been going on. You know, we keep hearing these warnings FBI has issued an alert out, and we will talk about it here on the show. It is really getting down to the brass tacks because we're, we're all somehow making some money, right? Whether or not you are getting paid because you know nothing about an oil company, or perhaps you are getting paid because you're working hard and getting up at 3 am every day. Those organizations, every one of them, right now got phished. Of course, you know what phishing is those of those types of emails that encourage you to click on something, maybe download something, etc. There are some new statistics out right now. They are kind of a little scary. You know, I'm not even sure these are that accurate because they say that nearly 90% of organizations around the world are targets of this whole business email compromise, type of scam, fear, spear-phishing attacks, which is a very, very big deal. And I think it's probably closer to 100% of organizations. I don't know you guys probably both have gotten those emails, right, supposedly, from your bank, etc. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't see why it's only 90%. But it's, it's very, very bad. It's very high. They're looking at global data from 50 million simulated phishing attacks. They got sent out to the customers of one company by their security firm, Proofpoint. They sent them over the one year but the part that's most alarming to me because you know, 100% that's not news. But unfortunately, more than half of the people that got these simulated phishing attacks opened the email and clicked on a link, and they were convinced to do it. That's the scary part. Another big story this week is telling us a little bit about what the results of that are the cost of it, and it's happening more, we are getting better. Okay. It used to be that it was 90% of people would open these emails. So we are getting better, but the costs are even increasing. Matt We are talking to Craig Peterson, he is our tech guru, and he joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology. I am always fascinated by this evolving facial recognition technology. I'm thinking of a man walking into the Gap or whatever, like in Minority Report, and they scan your eyes, or they just know they know who you are. They say Welcome back to the store. How did you enjoy those jeans that you just bought? Would you like to look at something new, etc.? The real utility of it, at least right now, is in terms of security and things like that. So obviously London is now adopting its facial recognition technology for police to us. Europe is considering a ban on it. Talk to us about where we stand with the use of this technology for law enforcement, and I guess beyond. Craig Last weekend, on my show, of course, Saturdays at 1 pm here on the same station, but and my show last weekend, I went into quite a bit of detail about this one company that had been operating kind of underground. They did something that this is frankly illegal. They scraped every picture available on the internet they could grab. That's against the usage of rules and agreements of all these websites. If you had an image posted on Facebook that was publicly accessible or on Twitter or on these online photo album sites that you can share photos. They have it. They have over 3 billion social media pictures. What they're doing is selling subscriptions to police departments. These police departments pay as little as $10,000 a year, can take a picture from some security cameras somewhere, and run it through this software. It's an app that runs on your phone. And it will tell the police where it has seen you before online. The police have been hindered over the years by only having pictures in their database of people who had interactions with police. You know you get arrested, they take photos and fingerprints. Now they have been able to identify hundreds or thousands of people that were involved in crimes were unsolved crimes, which is kind of interesting. So what London's doing now is they're taking that same type of technique. By the way, there are lawsuits against this company. Right now, it's in use in New York City. A lot of police departments are using it. But London's taking that type of technology because it's one thing to have faces. London has been, it's the most surveilled city in the world outside of China. And that means there's a lot of cameras out there. For years the city of London has been taking all of that information and use it to track people as they moved around London. Now with this newer technology that we're starting to see where it's tying it into social media posts to pictures that can find almost anywhere. They're worried about what they're calling a breakthrough assault on our rights. And we're starting to see this here in the UK is where the US is well, and it's very, very scary in the facial recognition is 80 ish percent accurate in some cases, is in the worst cases it's about 80% inaccurate, which is terrible. I think this is dangerous technology in the wrong hands, and it can easily be misused. The wrong hands don't mean like the guys in the White House. The wrong hands imply someone who has access to this type of database, who wants to find the name and phone number of that person they saw in this coffee shop. So they can call them up and try and get a date. It could be that simple. So I'm getting very concerned about it. Our law enforcement here in the US has relaxed the established rules of evidence that have been around for a long time and retaining things like our photos. When should they be keeping it that many police departments have cameras, video cameras on the cars as they drive around? In some jurisdictions, it means taking pictures of your license plate or photos of all of the occupants. When it finds an active ticket against the owner of the vehicle or the vehicle itself, you will be pulled over all automatically. Frankly, this type of activity concerns me because it's there will be mismatches. There will be people accused that shouldn't be. And honestly, I think we should be secure in it and have that type of privacy. Matt We were talking to Craig Peterson. He is our tech guru. You hear him every Wednesday at 738. You can listen to him on Saturday at one o'clock as well. You can go to Craig Peterson dot com anytime you want, and hear what he has to say. You know, we said it earlier, Craig about Jeff Bezos and the hacking of his phone. What's the latest on that? Should we be concerned? Craig It presents an interesting problem because Jeff Bezos was using a piece of software on his smartphone that many people use has called WhatsApp. It was bought by Facebook some time ago. What happened is that the Saudi Crown Prince was upset with the stories in the Washington Post that were written by Jamal Khashoggi. Khashoggi had written articles, news stories for The Washington Post. The Saudi crown prince had met Jeff Bezos at a party, and they exchanged WhatsApp phone numbers. That's how you communicate, and WhatsApp, you have a phone number associated with your account. So now, they can talk to each other using WhatsApp, and WhatsApp is an app designed for secure communications that encrypted from end to end. Let's get into a little bit more meat of your question, which is what happened here behind the scenes? Well, it turned out the watch app had a bug in the way it has handled or maybe even still handles access to your photos and videos and other information contacts on your phone. And apparently, someone used the Saudi Crown Princes account WhatsApp account, sent a video to Jeff Bezos. That video had in it some malware that gave them full access to Jeff Bezos, and his phone and everything on it. Well, the phone numbers of probably the contacts, but videos and photographs. And Jeff Bezos notices his phone was slow, which by the way, is the number one reason I get phone calls for security. But the email slows the slow phone computers not working right. Jeff took his phone to one of these places that did some cyber forensic analysis on the phone. They discovered why yes, indeed, the amount of data that's being sent by your phone is 100 6,000,000% higher than usual. It is posting videos, etc. out to the Saudi Crown Prince. Guess what ended up happening? We ended up with the most expensive divorce in history with Jeff Bezos and his wife because those videos and photos leaked. So that's the basics of what happened here. Ken Craig Peterson joins us at this time every Wednesday to go over what's happening in the world of technology today being no exception to that, Craig, as always, we appreciate you joining us here, and we will talk to you again next week. Craig Hey, gentlemen, take care. I'm going to talk more about this weekend on my show at one o'clock on Saturday. I want to get into what can you do to prevent this sort of thing? What should you do? So we'll cover that in more detail on Saturday. Ken We'll be looking forward to that. Craig Okay, take care, guys. Craig  Hey, everybody, make sure you are on my email list. So you get all of this and more. Just Go to Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. I keep pretty much everything up there on the site. Again, Craig Peterson dot com slash subscribe. We'll talk to you again on Saturday. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553  

Welcome, Good Monday morning, everybody. Craig Peterson here. I was on with Jack Heath this morning. We discussed Iran, The Broadcom chipset in cable modems that makes them vulnerable to attack, How Amazon is changing it's delivery model and most importantly if you use Firefox, the Patch that is available. Here we go with Jack. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Transcript: Craig We are going to have to be prepared for and expect this as it is not just an aberration, nor was the SARS concern or is any outbreak, right. Craig Peterson  Good morning, everybody, Craig Peterson here. Thanks for joining me. I don't know about you, but I'm concerned about the coronavirus. So let's get into it. I discussed it with Jack Heath this morning. Here we go. Jack Heath The coronavirus is traveling worldwide, and I'm going to ask our next guest just about it on the technology side of things. If technology can help speed up, for example, a vaccine for this coronavirus. Still, it's interesting that this has affected our financial markets so much. Is it due to the global implications on the spread of it or just a reaction to all the news reports recently? We haven't had spent a quiet period with the whole Iranian situation, whether it was a Qasem Soleimani twos weeks ago or all the impeachment stuff or that coronavirus is responsible for market impacts or could it be the markets are jittery after the announcement that a Massachusetts company is working among many on a possible vaccine. Here is Craig Peterson, our tech talk guy, and who has a show on Saturday on these iHeart news-talk stations. Craig, in this fast-moving era, coming out of China, the source but also as it spreads and mutates, I guess a few thousand people may have been affected by this virus. The question is, can technology help curb it? Craig Peterson Good morning. It is a very, very big problem they've got in China right now. Of course, one of the significant issues we've had over the years with China when it comes to these diseases is that they've been so tight-lipped about it. So there is a doctor who is working up in Toronto, and he did some fantastic stuff. He founded this company called Blue Dot and previously involved with the SARS outbreak. Now, you might remember that back in 2003, it was an epidemic, and it spread from China and, ultimately, all around the world. Yeah, it was a huge deal. And these types of flu can, of course, cripple hospitals. China is building a hospital right now. Another one. In fact, during the SARS epidemic, they constructed a 1000 bed hospital in six days total to help handle those people. So he was working as an epidemiologist during the SARS whole outbreak. He wanted a better way to figure out what was going on. And he did. That's what blue.is he got about $10 million worth of funding when he first launched a few years ago. And he and blue dot were able to predict on December 31, and they told their customers who are all major countries. So December 31, he said everybody, hey, we see the spread. Now what they do, Jack and it is rather interesting. There's they're looking at things like global airline ticketing data to help calculate the spread based on travel by residents. It monitors newspapers in 65 different languages. And it's using a form of artificial intelligence to figure it out. So he was able to correctly predicted the virus would jump from Juan to Bangkok to Seoul, Taipei, and Tokyo. And he got it 100%. Right. So that's one piece of technology that's an amazing blue dot. And then just for the regular stuff, if you're interested in watching what's happening with the usual slews, you can go ahead online and go to google.com or google.org slash Flu Trends. And Google's tracking it as well. But Google's paying a little more attention to some of the social media and some of the other things that are going on, but they've got the public Data Explorer, you'll find there and many other things. And we're using that we're also using some of these devices. Is that we wear the monitor our heart rates, but also can monitor our body temperature. They're also using the collected data at airports, watching people thermally for diseases, we've been doing that for quite a while. There's a lot of technology involved. Well, back up to December 31, he said his data showed -- hey, we've got an outbreak, it's going to spread. The US Centers for Disease Control warned us on January six, but they'd already gotten notification from Blue Dot, and the World Health Organization was January 9. So basically, right now, we had about a one week jump on everything else knowing what was going to be happening. Jack It's interesting because you mentioned the SARS epidemic, and I'm not sure if that, you know, it's a good thing if these things don't pan out. Justin did allude earlier with the traditional strains that are not the current strain right now of flu that is out there. Now is the height of the flu season. Due to the potency of this virus and the lack of a valid vaccine, this could get dangerous. We must be prepared for and expect that this is not just an aberration, nor was a SARS concern or nor is any outbreak. Craig Yeah, you're right. It is something that could kill a lot of people. You might remember the Spanish flu back in 1918. And that killed millions of people worldwide. And that's all it takes. So getting this little bit of early warning, knowing where it might be coming from in a country like China, of course, they just shut down all travel for the rest of us a little bit more complicated but knowing it's out there, being able to take the next step. There's also new technology when you talk about the shots for like the flu that we get. Right now. Its kind of against most of our seasonal flu, do come from Asia, and it seems to have to do with the handling of everything over there, poultry, pork products, etc. Were there live at the markets Not just mentioned just the sheer population. I mean, you know, you gotta look at how many people are in China. Jack Jack You make fun of me for being a vegetarian see, they're still going to make you sick Justin on the universal flu shot and showing a lot of promise, and it's already entered into the trial. So you know, who knows what we'll be talking about next year during flu season, Craig Peterson. Craig   Hey, as always, I try and give you some tips and things to do the obvious stuff. Well, according to the officials right now would have slowed down or even stopped entirely the spread of this virus. and that is to wash your hands and don't touch your face with your hand, especially during flu season. You know, make sure if you have a cough, you cough into your elbow. Hopefully, you've got a long sleeve shirt on, and that'll help stop the spread. So basic. Things will help a whole lot. You don't need high tech for any of that stuff. All right, take care, guys. Have a great day. We'll be back tomorrow, Karen and I and the rest of the team. we're busy, busy getting everything ready for you guys. So we'll let you know when that's all set. Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Message Input: Message #techtalk Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Welcome! Good morning, everybody. I was on with Mr. Jim Polito this morning and we discussed these Fake Jobs that are being offered on-line, spoofed websites and ID theft. Then we got into who was responsible for hacking Jeff Bezos's phone and why we have to be careful who we hire.  So, here we go with Mr. Polito. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com ---  Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig You know, Make America Great Again, that would not be a great password. Yeah, but some random words strung together are much harder to crack on a computer than anything else because of the way the cracking technologies work nowadays. The cracking technology is much different than it used to be. Craig Morning, everybody that was me with Mr. Jim Polito, and we broke down a couple of things today. First of all, a couple of security things, the truth about your passwords. We went into the whole hack here that led to the most expensive divorce in history, and also employment scams on the rise. Why is it happening? What should you be cautious of if you're looking for a new job? The FBI has a special warning out. So here we go with Jim. Jim Always ahead of the curve. Always bringing us the latest from the world of tech talk, our good friend, Craig Peterson. Good morning, sir. Craig A good morning. You know things are always changing out there in the industry. I'm going to bring something up. You mentioned earlier today. What they're trying to with this Data Privacy Day is to bring some visibility into the whole password problem, right? And you talked about some of the advice that they were giving and, and, what iHeart makes you guys do. What is it? Change your passwords every three months, Jim Yes, every three months. We have to change our password, and it can't be even close to the previous password. Craig That's a widespread thing out there in the industry, just in general. But I got to tell you that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is the organization within the federal government that comes out with all of these security standards, change that about a year ago. So You now have something to use against them. Here's why. Here's what's going on. If they make you come up with a new password every three months, what are the odds that it's going to be an excellent password? Next, what are the chances that you're not going to write it down somewhere like where the cleaning lady can find it? Maybe in your drawer, taped to the bottom of your keyboard, or even worse, and I know people are listening that are going to go into the office today and immediately and take down their post-it notes. If you can believe it, people place post-it notes right on their computer. The current recommendations are, you come up with a great phrase. Yeah, you don't have to use special characters and numbers and all this other stuff. But come up with a few random words. Pick four or five words that you can remember that you can associate together. Oh, and you don't have to change it every three months. Once a year is probably enough and phrase with three or four words that are there aren't things like, you know, make America great again, that would not be a de password. Yeah, but some random words that are harder to crack on a computer than anything else because the way the crackers are working nowadays, the cracking technologies is much different than it used to be. So just a quick word of advice to people if you're worried oh my gosh, I don't change my password every three months, and I don't have special characters and digits in it. Best password according to nest is just four maybe five words. random ones strung together and that's your passwords more accessible cookie-cutter type two, Jim But I have a new one it is Could I please MooMoo face banana? No. Can I please use MooMoocen face banana face to the dog patch Craig That would work. I think Jim I think Steve Martin said that one. I'm stealing it from Steve Martin. But yeah, you don't want to use one like that. Then someone if they know that expression will say, Oh, yeah, I remember Steve Martin said that. If they just get a few words they'll say, they'll say, I'd like to guess at solving the puzzle. Especially if you say it on the radio. Craig All right. Well, it's data privacy day. And that's why I brought it up. So great day to have you with us. And a great day to warn people about a new scam. The FBI is talking about, so you think you're applying for a job online? And then maybe we even got the job. And the fact is, you're talking with a scammer online. Unknown Speaker 4:57 Yeah, that's something. Craig The trick behind that right now, the scammers, the bad guys. What are they doing? They always go after the latest stuff, maybe something that's in the news, etc., etc. And you know what, it turns out I don't know, I listened to some of the house hearings. It would seem as though the job markets terrific the economy is falling apart, and we've got the worst president in history. But I think readability is more along the lines of, Hey, you know, I've had this job for 234 years now. If you're a millennial, hey, I've had this job for six months now. I wonder if there's a better job of it. I keep hearing that people are getting paid more. So they're looking for jobs. So you have even though the job market is tight for employers, you have all these people looking for jobs. So the scammers have figured out. You know what, we can get a lot of information from somebody that applies for a job. Because people, people will fill out forms, right, Jim, and they'll give me their social security number, their employment history, their home address their phone number. So people are now going online, they're looking for new jobs to see if they can do a little bit of an upgrade, which makes a whole lot of sense to me. And they are getting the victims to not only give all of this information to them, but they're also even getting people to pay them. And we're talking about these criminals who are, you know, have these fake jobs averaging about $3,000 per person, according to the FBI advisory? Jim Hey $3,000, which also means, by the way, some people were out $100,000 Craig Yeah, exactly. So they're now using the spoof web page to harvest this personally identifiable information. And a spoof website, of course, isn't like instead of going to I heart, you go to I dash hearts calm. Yep. Right. And you don't notice that you went to the wrong website. And the criminals are also they're all putting advertising in legitimate ads from legitimate employers. So you go to the site, it looks real, right? These bad guys are stealing ads from legitimate employers. They're doing everything. But that's because now employees are busy looking for other jobs. Because what the heck, they might just find them. Jim We're talking with Craig Peterson, our good friend Tech Talk guru. I have to be careful. When applying online, make sure you know to whom you're talking. If it sounds too good, it probably is not real. Craig in the time we have left, I want to ask about this week john had the story. Last week, we learned that Jeff Bezos's phone hack that led to the exposure of his affair. It turns out the Saudi prince accused of masterminding the murder of a journalist is the same one charged with the hack on Jeff Bezos's phone, of course, the founder of Amazon. I'll be talking about this a lot more in my on my podcast this weekend, which you can also find on the iHeart as well. Jim There we go. Yeah, and the easiest way to find it is you just go to Craig Peterson dot com. Craig But here's what happened. Guys, man has a media been getting this report wrong. But let's start at a high level. First of all, remember Jeff Bezos bought this fish wrapper out of Washington DC, remember when that happened, right? It was the Washington Post. So he bought this newspaper down in Washington DC, and is, you know, it's been around for a very long time. Okay. It broke some national stories over the years, but it's just gone left. Well, Jeff hired a journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, and he began writing for the Washington Post had been criticizing the Saudi Crown Prince because of the murdering of this Jamal Khashoggi. And then they were saying a lot of nasty things about it. So what ended up happening now apparently, this is all allegations at this point. But apparently, the Saudi Crown Prince got pretty upset that the Washington Post was saying all these bad things about him and that they murdered this. I'll use the term journalist kind of loosely because I think that does apply here in the case of Khashoggi. Yeah, at any rate, he wanted the Crown Prince, apparently to have a little vengeance. So the owner of The Washington Post, ultimately, is Jeff Bezos. Yep, the richest man in the world. Yep. He, here's what he did. And this is kind of interesting because we use these apps all the time. And apps are, you know, they can be significant. They sometimes can be monitored. And there's something called an end to end encryption. And when people are looking at apps to communicate, you want an end to end encryption. In other words, you don't want it set up and in a way that somebody can intercept it. So apparently, Jeff Bezos exists. An App called WhatsApp, which is owned by Facebook and does have an end to end encryption. But here's what happened. It looks like they used some of the hacker hacking software that's known as a zero-day attack against whats app. And apparently, there was a bug inside of the WhatsApp app. Now let's think about this for a minute from people that use WhatsApp or use any kind of a chatting or messenger program. If you're using your iPhone, it comes up and says, this half WhatsApp wants access to your photos and videos. And so you're sitting there thinking, Okay, what am I, you know, let's find I'm going to want to share videos and photos. So yeah, go ahead. Let's what WhatsApp has access to, and that's true, obviously on Android as well. A little more confused than Android, but it's right in both cases. So apparently what happened was, there was a bug that some people There's still allegations here, I'm not positive on the reality there is I'm not going to make any names or, or other allegations here. Researchers found a bug in WhatsApp that allowed them to send you a WhatsApp user a video. And that video broke into and took over WhatsApp. And almost immediately after Jeff Bezos received this video from the Saudi prince, you know whether or not it was him as a different story, but received it from the Saudi prince. His phone started exfiltrating data. In other words, all of a sudden, his phone started sending pretty much everything that was in his pictures and videos to Saudi Arabia. And then what do you have, you have the most expensive divorce in history. Jim It was the most expensive divorce in history, how many? Meaning she didn't even get half. It was still, what did she get, like 38,000,000,048 billion bunch of property. Craig Wow, it's tough. It's tough to live on that. So it's he noticed something has just started slowing down. It was sending video data out at a rate of 106,000,000%. Higher than previously. So he noticed something was wrong. And he took it to a forensics group who started having to look at the phone, but it was a bug in WhatsApp. And that kind of concerns me I'm sure it's going to be fixed if it hasn't been already. But you know, this has to do with again, having 100 200 apps on your phone. Think about it, all of those apps on your phone, what bugs do they have in them? How many apps to use. And as part of security awareness today, and I've said this for a long time, delete apps that you do not use frequently. If If you want real secure communications, if you're using iPhone messages is probably all you need messages and FaceTime, they both do a great job. And because Apple's paying close attention to it, bugs like this are likely to get fixed very, very quickly. And this is what happened to this is the new world that we're living in today. All of these application developers and these cool little apps that we have, you know the ones make it look like you're 20 years older or younger are stealing our data in some cases like this morphine app, the data is sent directly to Russia. You lose all rights to any pictures you uploaded. Worse yet, who knows what they're doing with those photos once they get there. So get rid of these apps that you're not using and don't trust them. 100% of you think something weird is happening that might be. And one real quick thing I have to say, and that is that when we get involved with an investigation for business on behalf of a company that thinks they might have been hacking, something might be going on 99% of the time, Jim, we get a call. Something's going on with our email. We're not sure what it is. And then when we dig into it more refined Chinese backdoors Russian hack, Jim yeah. Craig Right now, everyone's attacking our customers. It's just amazing what's happening out there. Jim All right. Now you know what's happening out there. He's told you about the latest security stuff you need to know during this segment. If you want more of this information, get on board with Craig Peterson. All you have to do is text my name, Jim, to this number 855-385-5553. That's just texting Jim to 855-385-5553. Standard data and text rates apply. And Craig Peterson will not annoy you bother you sell you something or hack you. Don't worry about it. Craig, thank you so much. Great segment. We'll talk with you next week. Craig Thanks, Jim. Bye-bye. Craig 16:31 All right. Hey, everybody, I want to let you know we have been working hard creating a new course for you. I will have exclusive giveaways for you as part of the course. It is going to be the best webinar ever, of course, all centered on transforming your security, your security posture, and more. So keep an eye out on your email, Greg peterson.com slash subscribes, but see the only one Didn't find out about it. Take care, everybody. Be back tomorrow. Bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai ---  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553