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  After a fulfilling career as a veterinary technician, Jenipher Swanson was ready for a new challenge. Her curiosity led her to discover medical coding, and she quickly became passionate, spending hours each day learning everything she could about the field. It wasn't long after she officially began her CPC studies that she passed the CPC exam. Discover more about Jenipher's inspiring journey in this episode of #iamaapc.

Meet Jenipher, a Certified Personal Trainer from Cambridge, Ontario, Canada, who has transformed her life after battling mold toxicity. 

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Maria comes on to talk to Inmn about the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, the state of aid going to Gaza, and the obstacles the powers that be have erected to prevent aid from arriving. Guest Info Maria Elle is a wing nut anarchist Jewish dyke extremist whore anti-Zionist psycho who writes poetry, conspires against the Empire, and organizes for collective liberation. You can find her on IG @Lchiam.Intifada or @bay2gaza Gaza Freedom Flotilla: freedomflotilla.org International Solidarity Movement: palsolidarity.org International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network: ijan.org Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Maria on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin. And today we're going to be talking about a kind of different lens of preparedness than we normally talk about...or no--well, I guess we always kind of talk about it. But we're...you know, we're not we're not going to be talking about a skill today as much as the importance for figuring out how to provide aid when the powers that be: governments and nations that we absolutely don't put our trust in but...are trapped by fail to do that or purposefully obstruct it. And today we're going to be talking about the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and organizing efforts around that and trying to bring critical aid to Gaza. But before that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network. [singing] Doo doo doo doo doo. **The Ex-Worker Podcast ** 01:24 The Border is not just a wall. It's not just a line on a map. It's a power structure. A system of control. The Border does not divide one world from another. There is only one world and the Border is tearing it apart. The Ex-Worker podcast presents No Wall They Can Build: A Guide to Borders and Migration Across North America, a serialized audio book in 11 chapters released every Wednesday. Tune in at crimethinc.com/podcast. **Inmn ** 02:04 And we're back. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know we had you on the Stranger's podcast recently for your poetry collection, which everyone should pause right now and go and listen to another hour long podcast episode first and then come back and listen to this...or don't. Or listen to it afterwards. Anyways, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and a little bit about yourself and your involvement with the Freedom Flotilla? **Maria ** 02:44 Absolutely. Yes. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm Maria. She/her pronouns. I am a Jewish, anti-Zionist, anarchist, I don't know, organizer, agitator--whatever you want to call it--from the Ohlone of xučyun (Huichin), aka Oakland, California. And I am.... I've been involved doing Palestine Solidarity work since I was a teenager. Originally, I came to awareness around what was happening in Palestine during the assault on Gaza in 2008 and got involved in the student movement and the student occupations that were happening back then. And then actually got kicked out of university as a result of that, which ended up being perfect because I got the opportunity to join the International Solidarity Movement doing work on the ground in Palestine, which is an amazing group that folks should look up. They were defunct for a little bit during COVID but have come back and are working again basically bringing comrades and activists from around the world to stand in solidarity with Palestinian resistance on the ground in Palestine. So I had that opportunity and then I came home and got involved in organizing back here and was not.... So the flotilla, the Gaza Freedom Flotilla has.... So, freedom flotillas have been sailing, trying to break the siege on Gaza since 2008. Basically, a flotilla--for those who don't know--is a group of boats. So it's a group of boats from.... Our flotillas or group of boats from all over the world. There's over 30 countries that are involved sending comrades and activists to break the siege on Gaza. And so these boats are filled--our current boat--is filled with 5000 tons of food and medical aid that we are attempting to bring directly to Gaza in defiance of Israel's illegal naval blockade. These.... Like I said, these missions have been happening since 2008, trying both to bring aid to Gaza and to bring awareness, international awareness, of Israel's blockade and kind of getting a lot of international notoriety 2010 When the Mavi Marmara, a Turkicsh ship that was part of the flotilla, was attacked. And nine people were murdered in that process. And it made headlines at the time and brought a lot of awareness to the ongoing siege on Gaza. And then since then there have been many attempts to break the siege. This year, of course, is a different context. And it's a little bit hard to know what to expect. As you know, as many of us already know, there has been a genocide happening in Palestine since 1948. But the particular intensified moment of genocide that we're in creates a different context that we don't totally know what to expect. But we are determined to sail. We are determined to break Israel's illegal siege on Gaza. And especially now more than ever, while there's been a humanitarian crisis in Gaza for a very long time, and this blockade has been happening for 18 years, the famine that is now gripping Gaza is unprecedented. And we are seeing mass death, especially in the north of Gaza, and that is spreading throughout Gaza. Now with the most recent attacks on Rafah, the situation just gets more and more dire every day. One of the goals of the Freedom Flotilla is to emphasize that this is not a natural disaster. You know, there's.... A lot of the way that this gets covered in US media and global media is as if this was a humanitarian--people use the word, "humanitarian crisis," and they use the word "famine." And both of those things are true. And they're also a little bit misleading because this famine is being intentionally created by Israel as a tool of genocide. Israel controls the flow of all aid moving into Gaza and is intentionally and carefully counting how many calories it is allowing into the Gaza Strip in order to intentionally keep the population on the verge of starvation in order to cripple the resistance. This needs to be highlighted. This isn't.... It isn't like they don't know how to get the aid in. It is not logistical obstacles. They try to make it seem like this is, "Oh, how can we possibly get aid in?" Israel has closed every barrier. Like, the fact that we even need to go by sea is insane. They could open the land crossings, which would be the most effective way, but they absolutely refuse. And the United States, our so-called government that has the power to do that and has the power to force the--probably the only government in the world--with the power to force Israel to open the land crossings--is instead building this pier, spending millions of dollars of wasted money that could be being used on aid or, you know, on stopping Israel. And this long drawn out project that now isn't even functioning due to like "climate" or "weather." I can't even remember what they said. There's some kind of structural damage. I mean, they put all this money into it and like still can't deliver aid somehow. And we're supposed to believe that that's a coincidence. Meanwhile, we have a plan to,within three days, effectively deliver all of this aid to Gaza by simply having a basic little fold-out pier that we have packed on the ship that could unfold, deliver the aid, and then we can leave again. It's actually really simple. It's not complicated. None of this has to be complicated. It's being intentionally made complicated as a tool of genocide and as a tool of hiding what Israel is intentionally doing. So that's really a big part of what the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is about. I would say that it's rooted, ultimately, in the principles of DIY and direct action, which are fundamentally anarchist principles to me, and to many of us, the basic idea that no one is going to do this but us. If we want something done, we have to do it ourselves. We cannot rely on these so-called governments who, many of whom around the world claim to support Palestine and give lots of lip service to the need for aid to get in and even for Palestinian Liberation. Other governments, such as our so-called government, have done nothing but contribute to and fund and exacerbate this genocide, still give lip service to "Oh, we need to get aid into Israel," but they're not going to do anything. At best, they don't care. At worst, they actively want this to happen. We cannot wait for them. We've been trying.... Like, you know, not that.... You know, fight by every means necessary. I really do believe in a diversity of tactics. And at the same time, we need to be honest with ourselves that there is no amount of pressure that we can really put on the Biden administration that is going to change the US' has strategic Imperial interest in propping up Israel, you know? And there's no amount of electoral or domestic pressure within the existing system that we can put in that will change the fact that Israel is a beacon of US imperialism in the Middle East. It is a central part of US imperialism's operation globally. And not only our military imperialism but our economic imperialism. So as many of you may already know, and many of you may not, a big part of the impetus for this genocide has to do with global trade and global shipping. So, after the Suez Canal crisis, we saw.... It became clearer than ever to the international community, how delicate the infrastructure of global shipping is. We saw with the simple breakdown of one ship in the Suez Canal, the global economy was brought to a halt. And it is unacceptable-- [Interrupted] **Maria ** 10:18 It's so fragile. And we saw its fragility even more with COVID and with the plague. And it has become clear to the West that having such an important chokehold located in Egypt is not strategic for them. And so Israel has a plan to build what they're calling the Ben Gurion Canal, which is going to be directly north of Gaza, within missile range of of Gaza to be clear, that would be an alternative to the Suez Canal and that would allow for Israel's, and therefore the United States', control over global shipping in a way that we do not currently have. So the depth of the economic investment in committing this genocide is deeper than even natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which a lot of us have also seen headlines about. And a lot of us already know Chevron's interest and BP's interest in colonizing Gaza and eliminating Hamas in order to secure access to that natural gas, but even beyond that, in order to facilitate the construction of the Ben Gurion Canal. With that much at stake, with both fossil fuels and global shipping at stake, there's a no amount of pressure that we can put up on the Biden administration to get them to like, hear truth, you know? If we want change, we have to make it ourselves. And no one is going to do this but us. And I think that the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, the amount of aid that we can actually deliver it with one flotilla is a drop in the bucket. The principle that we are trying to communicate to the world, and that we've seen in many places, is that we can't wait. We have to...we have to show up. We have to be there for our Palestinian siblings. We have to be there for our siblings around the world. And we have to do it ourselves. You know, I think we saw a similar thing with the Great March of Return, and I'm extremely inspired by the Great March of Return of Palestinians coming from Lebanon and breaking through the border there. And we, you know, continue to be inspired by Palestinian resistance globally and to work in concert with that resistance in order to do whatever we can to stop this genocide, both in the immediate sense and in the ongoing sense of Israel's colonization of Palestine from the river to the sea. **Inmn ** 10:18 It's so fragile. **Inmn ** 12:35 Golly, thank you for that very--I will call it a little bit of a rant thing. That was incredible and very informative. And now I have like 100 questions. **Inmn ** 12:47 I have 100 more things to talk about but lay it on me. **Inmn ** 12:51 Um, I think like, or.... I don't even know where to start. Actually, there's this funny place that I want to start, which I'm maybe gonna feel funny about and is maybe like.... Whatever, I don't think it's me feeling nihilistic about it as much as like confused by imaging in..... So I, as a lot of us have been seeing a lot of news graphics, infographics. And I saw this one recently that was talking about "planned distraction." And it was like this thing that was like, "Israel's really counting on Americans being distracted by Memorial Day weekend to intensify the assault on Rafah." And I was just like, I don't think Israel's thinking about what random Americans are doing. Like, as you say, I don't think there's any amount of pressure that we can put on institutions like the Biden administration to change those things. **Maria ** 14:30 Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I don't know. I mean, nobody really knows. I do think that it's worth noting that the last major assaults on Rafah began during the Superbowl also. So I mean, it's...who knows, maybe they are thinking about it. And Israel is very much concerned with its public image. [half interrupts self] Well, it's complicated, right? They are very much concerned with their public image and they're also on a genocidal, psychotic rampage, which is causing all sorts of domestic tensions. And Israeli domestic politics are a whole nother can of worms. You know, there isn't one--like anywhere--there isn't one unified Israeli interest. Israel, like every other country, is a contestation of political forces with central goals but also pulling at each other and pulling itself apart. And we actually are seeing Israeli domestic-- [Interrupts self] I think it's also very worth noting that last summer before the assaults on Gaza, before the most recent assault on Gaza began, we saw the first ever domestic Israeli social movement, really since the creation of the state. There was an actual--I mean, you know, fairly tame but for Israel significant--uprising of Israelis against their government. And several months later, this genocide happens, right? And this is not a coincidence. We've seen this kind of pattern time and time again, where a state in order to secure domestic unity will declare war or genocide on a foreign enemy. I think it's also worth noting that the plans for this--while October 7th may have been the the spark--the plans for this were very much already in place. And it is very clear from how quickly and strategically and efficiently they have acted that they have just been waiting for this opportunity. So I think that's worth emphasizing. I think, and then I just also want to clarify, as far as like "no amount of domestic pressure," I think that there's...I want to be clear that, like I said, I believe deeply in a diversity of tactics. And I do think that we need to do everything. And I think that there is very--like, I'm not saying that we should all just go to Palestine. I think there's very important roles for us to play here in the United States in organizing. But we need to be realistic about how we're gauging our targets. So we're never going to be able to appeal to the moral or even political interests of--as far as like electoral political interests--of these things. We...I think...I personally think that our best hope is to challenge their economic function, right, and to make this cost so much that they cannot continue. And that's a lot. It has to cost a lot because they have a lot to gain. But you know, what? We have a lot to lose. We have everything to lose and everything to gain. And we need to make this cost more than they can imagine. **Inmn ** 17:28 Yeah. And yeah, maybe to be clear, the infographic that I was seeing, it was like, its suggestion was like, you know, "Get on the phone and call your congress people." And I was just like, you know, yeah, "by any means necessary," and whatever people can do, but I was like, I don't think the one thing stopping.... It framed it in this way--I am gonna get off this topic very quickly and spent too much time on this--but it framed it in this way of like, "Oh, if Americans just weren't so distracted by barbecuing over the weekend then genocide and then Gaza would have been over," and I was just like...that. Okay, whatever. Anyway, a real question. So I think maybe something that I've been curious, I guess, about is some of the like geopolitical--or like, specifically like geographical--forces at work where.... Like for the.... Can you tell me about waterways, waterways in and around Israel and Gaza? Like I guess like what is the proposed route? Or like, what are some of the.... Like, how get Flotilla? **Maria ** 18:48 How get Flotilla. **Inmn ** 18:49 How blockaded? **Maria ** 18:52 Through the Mediterranean. So we had originally, we had originally planned to sail from Turkey, from Istanbul, and I was actually in Istanbul with hundreds of other people. We were, our bags were packed, the boat was full, we were ready to sail, and the mission was bureaucratically sabotaged by Israel. This was several weeks ago. **Inmn ** 19:13 Is this the flag thing? **Maria ** 19:14 Yeah, so Israel has tried many different avenues to sabotage the Flotilla, including physical sabotage of the ship. But one--and this has happened for many years--but one tactic they have not tried before, and that we were not prepared for, was that they pressured.... So I don't know how much people know about shipping. But every ship that leaves a port has to pass to sail under a flag, a national flag. As far as I understand, any ship that doesn't sail under a flag is technically considered a pirate ship. [says incredulously, laughing] So if we wanted to leave and be allowed to leave by the Coast Guard, we would have to have a national flag. And usually those flags have nothing to do with the mission. You basically buy a flag to sail under. It's interesting. It's actually kind of like a side hustle for a lot of poorer countries, they sell their flags at a cheaper rate and with less bureaucracy. So I think most international shipping actually happens under the flag of the Philippines. But we were gonna sail under the flag of Guinea Bissau, which was a flag of convenience. And Israel put immense--Israel in the United States--put immense pressure on Guinea Bissau to withdraw the flag. And so the flag was withdrawn literally the day we were supposed to depart, like bags packed and ready to go. And, you know, we could have...like the captain could have, I suppose, made the choice to sail anyway, but then that would have forced a confrontation with the Turkish Coast Guard, rather than with the Israeli naval blockade, which people felt wasn't...wasn't worth it. You know, for better or worse. Whatever. The people thought it wasn't worth it. And that it was a better plan to just try to get another flag. So the flotilla is delayed as we are searching for another flag. That process is well underway. And I am hoping.... We'll have more information within the next week about where that is at and when and where we're planning to sail from. It's not sure that we'll be sailing from Turkey anymore at this point. Turkey would have been about a three day sail to Gaza. And at this point we might have to be looking at somewhere further out. TBD. **Inmn ** 21:27 Like somewhere further out to escape the influence of Israel putting pressure on those local areas? **Maria ** 21:36 Yeah, so there was a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure put on the Turkish Government. And Turkey, while it gives incredible lip service to supporting a free Palestine, is actually deeply economically dependent on Israel. And the domestic politics there is a whole can of worms. Anyway, I don't know where that's at. That's not part of the...that's not the team that I'm on. You know? I'm doing a lot of more of a social media and grassroots organizing here in the US. So I'm not one of those people figuring that part out. But, I mean, we can all see, we all basically know the general geopolitics of that region and how complicated it is for any country in the world to allow us to sail because of the possibility of antagonizing Israel, and what that can mean as a nuclear power and as a proxy of the United States in the region. But we will. We'll find a place that we will do it. Inshallah, very soon. And that is underway. I think as far as what's happened in the past, so what's happened in the past, most of the Flotillas have not--actually all of the Flotillas--have not actually made it to Gaza. They are pretty consistently stopped, often in international waters--which is illegal--before arriving. There are no ports in Gaza that one could land at. So like we said, we had this plan with a pier that can unfold. In the past Israel has stopped the flotilla with its naval blockade. In 2010 the ships were famously--one of the ships in particular--was famously attacked, and nine people were were murdered in that process. Since then, there have been no fatalities. No one has been matyred. But everyone pretty much has been arrested and deported. **Maria ** 21:37 From like international waters? [Said confused like it sounds sketchy] **Maria ** 23:40 I think they get brought into Ashdod, usually, and deported from there, like on an Israeli vessel or whatever. I don't know. I haven't been on any of the flotillas before. This will be my first journey. One of my aunts was really involved in them for many years, so I learned a lot about the process, and I've been following the process, since 2010. She's been very involved in--or she was--very involved in it. Gail Miller, may her name be for blessing. So I've been following it but this is my first actual mission joining. **Inmn ** 24:14 Cool. Um, yeah, it's...I don't know, it's.... Thinking about waterways has been something that's been really interesting with a lot of the goings on in and around the genocide in Gaza, like specifically with like...it was fun to see countries like Yemen be like, "Oh, we're gonna blockade Israel or we're gonna blockade shipping routes for Israel shit." And interesting to hear you talk about the connections to global shipping, because then that turned into this big global shipping catastrophe. And like the US and Israel were like "We're protecting global shipping lanes for like the good of Capitalism..." **Maria ** 25:14 One of the first honest things they've said. Yeah, absolutely. I think even with that, it's worth remembering too, just kind of going back to what I said, that the governments of the world are not acting. It wasn't the Yemeni government who took that action. You know, it was it was the Houthis. And overwhelmingly, we see that is not governments anywhere, but rather people working with conviction and solidarity who can actually stop the infrastructure of global trade, can actually stop...can actually have some real impact on this genocide, right? Like, that's one of the only meaningful...you know, people know that acronym BDS, It's boycott, divestment, and sanctions, which is...was a movement in South Africa during the anti-apartheid struggle that the Palestinian anti-apartheid struggle has adopted, and that has been a global call for some time now. And one of the only real meaningful BDS actions we've seen has been by the Houthis, in that way, you know, actually interfering with Israeli shipping. **Inmn ** 26:15 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, that's, interesting to hear. I feel like this is a topic that I've tried really hard to learn about on the internet and every time I do it's deeply confusing. And I get more confused because there's a lot of propaganda from the US and from Israel about, like, you know, who's enacting these blockades and whatever reasons that they make up. I saw...I was reading a little bit about the 2010 flotilla where, either like before or after it, Israel was making these wild accusations that the flotilla was working with Al Qaeda or had all these connections to groups they labeled as terroristic. And then the claims were withdrawn later because everyone was like, "Literally what the fuck are you talking about?" **Maria ** 27:15 Yeah, absolutely. And, of course, they're always going to do that, you know, and they're always going to try any possible means to antagonize and paint any kind of resistance is terrorism, which is also what we're seeing in Gaza, right? They will paint five-year old children as terrorists, you know? They have no shame and and they've gotten so far...they've spiraled so deep into their own narrative that they have really lost the plot. It's kind of wild. **Inmn ** 27:46 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's...it's like this thing that's been happening for quite some time, which seems like less obvious to people who have been paying attention, but like, I feel like a decade ago, or a decade and a half ago--wow, time happens--there, like you said, Israel has had these moments of being deeply concerned with their public image and then these moments of just the veil coming off and being like, which is happening there, it's happening here in the United States, it's happening everywhere, just fascistic forces becoming less concerned with what their public images are and just owning being terrible and fucked up. Being like, "Who's gonna stop us?" **Maria ** 28:39 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, like I said, Israeli domestic politics are a total mess, but there is definitely a stronger and stronger faction that feels that way. And just thinking about it also, to bring it back to sort of the actual mission of the Flotilla, which is to deliver aid, and.... Well, it's twofold, right? It's to deliver aid and it's to break the siege and highlight the injustice--and not just injustice but absolute insanity--of the fox guarding the hen house here, so that all aid flowing...coming into Gaza has to be searched and is being monitored by Israel, and the sort of intentional, as I spoke to in the beginning, of the intentional famine that is being constructed there. And, you know, we saw in the news in March, that we were on the...we're at a tipping point of mass starvation. And that tipping point has been tipped. We are seeing unprecedented famine happening in Gaza. And I wanted to bring it back to that because I also want to just think a little bit about contextualizing what famine means. You know, I mentioned before that people often treat--like the media often treats this as a natural disaster or something or tries to paint it as a natural disaster-- **Inmn ** 29:53 Yeah, it "just happened" **Maria ** 29:54 --as an intentional act of war and genocide. And I think that we have to frame it that way and we have to both make sure that aid is getting in immediately, and to recognize that this is political, that no matter how much money we send to the Red Cross, if aid isn't being allowed to cross isn't helpful, which is not to say don't donate. Donate. And donate, specifically, to Palestinian mutual aid funds, which are the most grassroots opportunities, the most direct way to get funding, and you can find that...I can direct you, at the end, towards different places to donate The Middle East Children's Alliance has been able to get a lot of aid directly in. There's also a lot of, there's a group called Bay to Gaza Mutual Aid, which has collected a bunch of on the ground places to help people in Gaza. So just to be clear, I'm not saying not to donate. You definitely should. And we have to recognize that without an end to this, to the siege and to the bombardment, and the occupation, aid can only go so far. And I think it's important to contextualize that, to remember that this isn't...this phenomena also isn't unique to Palestine, right, this ideathat the global media treats famine as somehow a "natural phenomenon," when in reality, it's politically constructed. It's not just for Palestine, It's true all over the world. And we're seeing that especially in..... I think you can't actually talk about Gaza right now without also talking about Darfur and Sudan and what's happening there. And I think even more than in Gaza, famine--the politically constructed famine--that affects Africa, and specifically, that affects Black people in Africa, is often treated as "inevitable," and "natural," when it is very much politically constructed. And what we're seeing in Sudan, and the genocide that is taking place in Sudan right now, and the famine that is gripping Sudan right now, is every bit as politically constructed, is every bit as entwined with resource wars with the UAE and Saudis, race for controlling natural gas and resources, and for having a monopoly over those things. And this is this genocide is being directly funded by the UAE, which the United States will not challenge because of our strategic alliances there. And the people being targeted by this genocide are overwhelmingly African agriculturalists who have continued to keep that land fertile and producing food when it is more within the interest of the imperialist powers, and particularly the UAE, to have the land become arid so that it can become extraction sites for minerals and fossil fuels. So all that to say, a big part of the goal of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is to politicize famine itself, because it is political. **Inmn ** 32:53 Yeah. Yeah, I know, it's hard to actually think of a famine, like a historical famine, that is actually not a political tool, or like an act of genocide. It's like we...when we...when we think of it, even like the word that we have, it's like when we think of famine, we think of there being a lack of something, we think of there being some kind of disaster that is just like, "Oh, the conditions just made it so that food couldn't be produced." And it's...it's never that. And, at least in English, like we don't really have a word for enacted famine that I can think of that isn't just genocide or that isn't just like purposeful starvation. It's like this entire language lacks a word for this tool that is used. **Maria ** 33:51 Caloric warfare. **Inmn ** 33:54 Yeah, um, I guess like kind of change tack a little bit, I feel like I'm using you as my filter for trying to learn about things on the internet and like running into so many weird like blocks that I'm like, I have no idea what's going on because the global media apparatus is horrible. But what.... I guess like what's going on with world government efforts to like get like food and aid into Gaza? Like I know there's been like a lot of back and forth with what like the UN is doing to get in food and it seems like that's not happening anymore? **Inmn ** 34:40 Where was the pier being built? And, like, what, like there weren't other peirs? **Maria ** 34:40 Right. I mean, one of the most bizarre things that's been happening that has been a lot of the efforts right now is airdrops. So people are like, "There's no way to get aid into Gaza. We have to literally drop it from the air," which is not only unhelpful, but has actually been dangerous and had has caused injury and the destruction of the aid being delivered and has been, shockingly, both ineffective and unsafe. Meanwhile, you could just cross the border, right? We shouldn't even have to be going in through the sea. There's not even.... Like we're going through the flotilla because we feel like that is our best chance of getting in. But there are... like, Egypt shares a border with Gaza. The Rafah crossing a should be open, and people should be able to bring in aid by land. And there's some aid that is crossing there. But as we've seen, to the extent that Israel will let anything in there, which has been very limited, there are settler...civilian--so-called civilians--although, they're not civilian, because they're armed to the teeth with AK--well not AK-47s but M-16s--actively blocking and looting and destroying trucks that are delivering aid to Gaza. I'm just like, can you even imagine? Like, could you imagine? It's hard like.... Like, what goes through your mind? What lives in your heart to destroy food, going to starving children? You know, I.... Whatever. But like, that's actively happening, you know. And so yeah, the airdrops have been a lot of like, you know, this whole US pier that I think I spoke to earlier that they're trying to construct this peir, they constructed this peir. It was pseudo operational for a minute. Now, it's non-operational, again, spending millions of dollars for this basically theater, when the US could, in a heartbeat stop sending aid to Israel and end this whole thing. **Maria ** 36:45 Off the coast of Gaza. It's a floating pier. So yeah, it's whatever.... It's a floating pier off the coast of Gaza. No, it's...I mean, it's honestly, like it's a whole charade. To be honest. Like the United States could, tomorrow, stop this but they won't. **Inmn ** 37:08 Yeah. And it's like the excuses are always these like strange logistical, bureaucratic excuses. Of like, "Oh, I don't know, the pier, the pier didn't work out. Or like, if only we could secure the border crossings, then aid could flow freely through." [Said sarcastically] **Maria ** 37:29 Right, exactly. Which, you know, is a common thing that we see globally too. We see it in this country to some degree like the crisis at the US-Mexico border, which I believe you're at right now. Like, they treat it like..... They treat so much of the humanitarian crisis that's happening there as if it were an impossible problem to solve when it's a very similar situation. It's a intentionally constructed political crisis. **Inmn ** 37:55 Yeah. And it's like, you know, there's a kind of, I guess, famous zine--or maybe people haven't read that one in a while because it's been a long time. But there's a scene called Designed To Kill, which is exactly how the US-Mexico border works. It's like the way that you hear government talk about it, they talk about it as if like, "Oh, we just can't do literally a single thing about it. We have billions of dollars, but we just can't solve this problem." And it's like--this is gonna sound weird--but it's like when you hear Border Patrol talk about like, like, "If only we could figure out how to stop people from coming in," which is not anything that I would ever want, but is what the government talks about. And it's like, you're not trying to do that. If you were trying to do that, it would be quite easy to do that. Like you have designed a system to funnel people in, to exploit them through private prisons, to psychologically terrify, and kill people. **Maria ** 39:06 Absolutely. **Inmn ** 39:06 It is a sick and twisted thing. It is a disaster of your own creation that you then LARP as being the humanitarian actors for, for like public image. Like Border Patrol has a.... Border Patrol has a search and rescue unit. They have like a helicopter that they tote around. [Affirmative sounds from Maria] Fucking absurd. 39:32 I know. I know. Yeah. I mean, I think that you know, I believe you were involved with No More Deaths at the US-Mexico border for a long time, and I think that there's a very similar principle as with the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, that the people who created this crisis are not going to be the ones to stop it. And if anyone's going to do something, it has to be us. We have to do something. Because, yeah, the colonizer isn't going to stop colonizing unless we do something about it. **Inmn ** 40:03 No. And it's like we can't count on.... It's like, we.... Like a lot of people, I think have this, like this myth or hope or whatever that like, "Oh, well, if things ever get really weird, like the UN will step in," or something. And it's like the UN has proceeded to literally fucking nothing. Or it's like the...like, what is it? The I forget the acronym for that court, the UN court, the world.... **Inmn ** 40:31 Yeah. Yeah, the ICJ making rulings towards Israel about, "We want you to stop the genocide." And they're like, "Well, we're not going to do it." And it's like the ICJ does literally fucking nothing. **Maria ** 40:31 The ICJ 40:47 I mean, I believe that ICJ is interesting. The ICJ did issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, which, as far as I can tell, only means that there's like, certain countries he maybe can't go to or like, if he loses this war, which inshallah, he will, that there could be potentially be consequences for him. But that really, like, you know, it's all about real politics. That really just depends on how the war itself goes, you know? Like the international arrest warrants issued in Nazi Germany only were meaningful because Germany lost the war. I just wanted to, I mentioned No More Deaths early and I realized that probably not all the listeners know what that is. So I just thought I'd say No More Deaths is mutual aid project at the US-Mexico border. Grassroots, mostly anarchist lead from what I understand, project. Once upon a time, at least. **Inmn ** 41:45 Let's say anarchistic. **Maria ** 41:48 There we go, there we go. That [NMD] provides mutual aid that both has like emergency medical care and food and also like hikes the desert searching for people who are lost and helping evacuate people who are in need and giving direct aid at the Border despite the Border Patrol's attempt to criminalize those efforts. Which I know a lot of our listeners have probably been involved in. I believe you were. I went out there for...a long time ago. I went out there to do that. But I do think that there's powerful mutual aid projects like that happening here in Turtle Island, too. So it's worth shouting them out. **Inmn ** 42:29 Yeah, and it's like there's a lot of really interesting parallels between all of these mutual aid projects, and also the systems that create the need for them. Where, I don't know, there's so many Israeli defense contractors that got hired to build the virtual--like Elbit Systems got hired to build the virtual wall in the Border and it's like, the similar systems that get used in Palestine. And there's.... It's freaky. There's this, in Arizona, there's this company trying to build like a water pipeline from the Gulf of Mexico to Scottsdale or something. And it's the same Israeli company that builds pipelines through...or like distillation centers in Palestine. 43:28 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we see similar collaborations with Cop City in Atlanta. It's all, it's a global war machine. And we see it functioning exactly the way it's intended to function. But you know, we also have a power to be a cog in that machine. And I am weirdly optimistic a lot. I actually have a lot of faith that we can, you know, this machine can't operate without us, especially us here in the heart of Empire. Like this is in so many ways the veins of empire where so much of it is plotted and executed right here on Turtle Island. And we're uniquely positioned in a lot of ways to clog those arteries. We just have to find the courage and the confidence and the organization to make it happen. And I have so much faith in our ability to do that. Yeah, before, before we run out of time--I don't know if we're coming up on time or not. But I wanted to just also make sure that there's--and I mentioned this, but I just want to give it enough space that this crisis did not start in October. And it also didn't start with the siege of Gaza 18 years ago. This has been a crisis that has been exhibiting in its current form since 1948, since the creation of the State of Israel and the Nakba, which is the genocide of the Palestinian people in order to create the State of Israel and really for longer than that, since Zionist immigration began in the 1880s. And this crisis didn't start now and it's not going to stop when the bombs stop falling on Gaza. This crisis will not end until the settler, ethnic national...the settler, nationalist ethno state of Israel is dismantled. And really until the whole global system of settler colonialism--and all of the national states--are dismantled. But to look specifically at Palestine, like there is no...this is not over until Zionism is over. Zionism needs to be ended, and that the settler ethno state of Israel needs to be ended. And that until all Palestinians have a right to return to their homelands, until all Palestinians have a right to move freely in their homelands, until all Palestinians have a right to autonomy and self governance within their homelands. And by self-governments, I don't just mean to have a State, but to be able to have agency over their own lives and their own decisions. And until that, the struggle isn't over, and it can't be. And, you know, I think I'm actually very hopeful about this moment, I think that there is...that there is an incredible not, just an outpouring of support for the Palestinians, but incredible recognition of the state of global colonialism in the 21st century and its relationship to resource extraction and what we can do to stop it and I know that the Palestinian.... Like part of the reason that people around the world have responded to what's happening in Palestine the way they do is because this really resonates with so many indigenous people's struggles everywhere. Indigenous people all over the world see their struggle in the struggle with Palestinians and are rising up all over the world and it is very much a global struggle and very much that to free Palestine is in so many ways to free the world. **Maria ** 43:28 Yeah, yeah. Um, I know that you're...you've been part of some...part of this larger project...movement...coalition? I don't know words. But are there...are there ways that people can plug into this? Like if someone's like, "Yo, I got a boat. I want to join the flotilla." Can they do that? 47:25 I don't know about a boat. Well, I mean, if you've got a big boat. These are big boats we're talking Yeah, these are these are big boats. But um, I would say in general, yes. So the website is freedomflotilla.org. You can also find it on all the social medias, but especially you can find it on you know, TikTok, Twitter, Instagram. Also, specifically for those in the so-called San Francisco Bay area, we have our Bay to Gaza contingent that is...we are currently growing and expanding and getting ready to sail, so you can follow us on Instagram @Bay2Gaza. We're also on TikTok and Twitter, and you can reach out to us there if you're interested in supporting or getting involved. My Instagram is @lchaimIntifada. You can also message me there. I check that a little bit more. And, yeah, reach out. We're definitely still recruiting. We don't know exactly when we're going to sail yet. But we need all types of support. And especially, you know, in a lot of ways, this is a media project. This is about shedding light on a phenomenon. So especially folks who have skills in media are very much needed right now. Both legacy media but also social media. **Inmn ** 48:41 Yeah, yeah. Cool. Um, as we get...I guess, get to the end of time--our time, not the end of all time--are there any other things that you wanted to talk about? Any questions that I didn't ask you that you wanted to just touch on? I feel like I had 100 more questions that I will never remember until we stop the recording. And then I'll remember them. 49:11 Happy to keep talking after we stop the recording. But um, no. I mean, I think yeah, like I said, please, the best way to follow us is on social media. And please reach out if you are interested. And I would say other than that, taking the principle of the Flotilla, the principle that nobody is going to do this if we don't, and that we cannot depend on governments or higher powers to make change. We have to make it ourselves, and apply that to all of your organizing. Apply that to the ways, the strategic ways that you're thinking about challenging genocide and occupation and colonialism everywhere that you are, you know. I think that most of our organizing does need to be done at home where we live. And the message that I want people to take away, personally, from the Flotilla is that if we want change, we have to make it ourselves. And to use that framework, and I think...I think what that really is, is the framework of direct action, personally. I think that the word "direct action" has really lost its meaning. And a lot of activists spaces on Turtle Island in particular, people kind of think that direct action just means chaining yourself to something. And I am firmly of the belief that direct action means...it can mean three things. It can mean destroying something that needs to be destroyed, interfering with something that needs to be interfered with, and creating something that needs to be created. And you're doing it directly as opposed to protest, which is when you're asking power to do it for you. And I think there's a role for both. I think there's a role for protests and there's a role for direct action. But we should know what the difference is when we're framing our strategy, and encourage people to look to a framework of direct action and of destroying what needs to be destroyed, creating what needs to be created, and interfering with what needs to be interfered with. So I'd say that other than getting involved with the Flotilla, just holding those principles and all of our organizing, **Inmn ** 51:05 Yeah. And, can I add a little suggestion to that? **Maria ** 51:12 Please. **Inmn ** 51:13 Also in the realm of when thinking about taking direct action, when thinking about protesting, like whenever, it's like making sure that these things that we're doing are community driven and not relying on, I don't know, political parties, or even nonprofits to guide us through taking action. Like, the only ways that we're going to make it through this is if we do it and can't wait for people with more power to just hand it over. **Maria ** 51:55 Absolutely. And I think that's true on the micro sale scale of mutual aid, which is why we do mutual aid projects and it's also true on the macro scale of how this world will change. And, you know, to me, that's what anarchism is. So... **Inmn ** 52:07 Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming on again. And yeah, listeners, if you want to hear more from Maria, then you can find her on social media or you can go and listen to the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast and you can listen to us talk--honestly, a lot...mostly more about Gaza and the fuckery that is Zionism but through poetry and Maria's beautiful poetry collection, Escape Plan, which you can go check out on the Strangers in a Tangle Wilderness podcast. 52:47 And more about the West Bank, which I didn't get to talk about in this interview. And I'm realizing that was something I missed. But I do talk about that in the other one. 52:53 Do you wanna talk about it now? **Maria ** 52:54 I don't want to add that as like a little side note, but I do just want to say that speaking of like distractions, while this genocide in Gaza has been taking place, Israel has been annexing land in the West Bank at an unprecedented rate, and that the violence, but also the land loss happening right now, is a crisis that needs to be confronted directly. I do talk about that more in the other podcast. **Inmn ** 53:16 Yeah. Cool. Well, we'll see you next time. And I hope that.... **Maria ** 53:26 Free Palestine! **Inmn ** 53:27 Great. Yes. Happen. Free Palestine. I got all the words. At least 10 of them. **Inmn ** 53:40 Thank you so much for listening to Live Like the World is Dying. If you enjoy this podcast, then go do mutual aid. Break the siege of Gaza by any means necessary. But also, if you enjoyed this podcast and you want us to continue to put it on and do other cool stuff, then you can support the podcast and the best way to support the podcast is by talking about it. Tell people about it. If the people that you want to learn more about the weird myths, political myths, constructed to keep us not doing things, then tell them about Like Like the World is Dying. You can also support the show by supporting it financially. And you can do that by supporting our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can go to our website, tangledwilderness.org and find cool things like books and games and other stuff that we sell and make there. Or you can find us on Patreon and at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And yeah, you can get all sorts of fun things--we're gonna call them fun things--through the Patreon. You can get a zine mailed to you every month, like Maria's poetry collection--well, I guess you missed out on getting that one mailed to you, but you can get other future ones mailed to you-and also you can get us to thank or acknowledge things on your behalf. And we would like to thank these wonderful people and organizations. Thank you Reese, Jason, aiden, alium, Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eric, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, anonymous, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea. Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah. And a special shout out to one of our Patreon subscribers who told us that when they have more money, they're going to get the $20 a month tier so that they can get Hoss the dog another acknowledgement, we're just going to thank Hoss the dog like 20 times. Thank you, Hoss the dog. [Chanting] Hoss the Dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog times 20. Times a million. Thanks all of y'all. Maria, is there anyone you would like to thank in particular today? **Inmn ** 56:34 Oh, I wasn't ready for that question. I'm sorry. That's fine. The people of Palestine, the Palestinian resistance. **Inmn ** 56:44 Hell yeah. Thanks for all and we'll see you next time. freedomflotilla.org, palsolidarity.org, and ijan.org Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Spencer and Inmn talk about bike packing and how cool bikes are. What is bike packing? Where can you ride? What do you need? Find the answers here. Guest Info Spencer can be found on IG @spencerjharding or at www.spencerjharding.com Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Spencer on Bike Packing Pt. I **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin, and today we're going to be talking about something that I've been wanting to do an episode about for a really long time because I really love to do it. And I think what I'm going to learn in this interview is that I have been doing it really wrong. Or not wrong, but making it so much harder for myself. And it's just going to be...it's going to be a lot of fun. And today we're gonna be talking about different ways that you can travel long distances, or short distances over strange terrain, on a bicycle. And we're gonna be talking about bike packing. But before that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Net of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [singing] **Dissident Island Radio ** 01:27 You're listening to Dissident Island Radio, live every first and third Friday of the month at 9pm GMT, check out www.dissidentIsland.org for downloads and more. **Inmn ** 02:15 And we're back. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and just a little bit about what you do in the world? And what you're here to tell us about today? **Spencer ** 02:32 Hi, my name is Spencer Harding. My pronouns are he/him/his. I do a lot of things related to bikes and I have for the last...oh, at least 10 or so years. I'm currently a photographer, writer, and editor for a website called theradavist.com. We do all manner of cycling related articles and content reviews. I've worked as a bike mechanic at local community coops and full on bike shops a like, and I've been traveling by bike since 2009 pretty regularly. And that's been a huge focus of my interest in bikes and kind of my forte in bikes. **Inmn ** 03:18 Cool, cool. Um, it's funny because I know you real life and we, you know, we like play dnd together and I actually didn't know that's what you for work. And I just knew you knew a lot about bikes. So cool, great. **Spencer ** 03:40 I don't love that I'll know people for years and years and years and I think in a lot of the communities I've been in for years, no one really asks what anyone does. And it's not really important because we're all just doing these weird niche activities or hobbies together. And it's kind of fun. **Inmn ** 03:55 Yeah. I'm going to immediately go offer a little script. How did you get into bikes? **Spencer ** 04:07 I got into bikes right on the verge of the huge fixed gear craze that happened in like the early aughts. **Inmn ** 04:18 Oh yeah, I remember. **Spencer ** 04:21 So I was in school at Long Beach State in Southern California. I saw some people riding around bikes. It was the begining of my second year of college. I was moving off campus and I realized that I could buy a bicycle for the same price as a parking pass. And it took me as long to ride from my apartment to my classes as it did to walk from the parking lot to my class. So I took the, what, $130 that that parking pass would have been and I bought an old Schwinn off Craigslist. And it's been all downhill from there. **Inmn ** 04:59 [Laughing] I'm sure it has not been all downhill, but I appreciate the pun. We'll get into this later, but I did a big--introduction to me and biking--is that I have always just really loved bikes. Like similarly I had this thing in high school where a car became suddenly unavailable to me. And I lived in like a suburb of a suburb of a suburb. And I was like, can I take my dad's old Schwinn that's in the in the crawl space and ride it to the city? And the answer was, yes, I could. But like, fast forward many years to going on my first bike tour, and we like went over the continental divide and I was like, "So it's all downhill from here, right?" 06:00 [Laughing] That's one of the things. You never trust the elevation profile. There's always more up somehow. You could be on top of a mountain and somehow there will be some more uphill. **Inmn ** 06:11 Yeah. Always uphill. Always. Um, cool. Well. So yeah, let's just kind of happen to it. Um, what is like...what are the different kinds of scopes of bike travel? I feel like there's like a lot of words that were new to me as of a couple of years ago where I was just always "bike touring." But now there's all these kind of other words that people use that maybe seem like little subsets of bike touring, like gravel bikes or bike packin or r maybe there's other words that I don't know about. 06:50 There's so many buzzwords, and most of it is marketing, and like an ever smaller niche-ification of bikes. When we talk about bike travel, I think the word that comes to mind is bike touring, like, everything is bike touring. You're touring on a bike, you're riding, you're exploring, you're traveling by bike. The buzzword of the last decade has been "bike packing." And there's a lot of arguments about what that means, what that constitutes, what's bike packing, what's not bike packing. I won't go down a huge rabbit hole. I feel like the word bike packing ushered in a more modern sense of ways to pack a bicycle as opposed to what was classically bicycle touring. But if you're traveling by bike and you're strapping shit to your bike, you're going bike touring, Call it bikepacking. Call it gravel biking. You can call it...there's a multitude of other things like that. But when it boils down to it, it's all bike touring in my mind. **Inmn ** 08:09 Yeah. Okay. Um, golly, I'm going to immediately go on another tangent because I... [Spencer encourages it] It's reminding me of like.... I suddenly found myself thinking about like, wait, I wonder if Spencer knows the history...like what the history of the development of the bicycle was? This is a question I should have sent to you yesterday. And I mean, maybe you do, maybe you don't-- 08:39 I'm not super familiar. It popped in my head like I should probably do some sort of research. I mean I know the vagaries of it. But nothing specifically. I couldn't sit tell you names or dates or anything like that. **Inmn ** 08:53 Totally. But it's like, it is something that people have...like people have been riding long distances on bikes since bikes were invented, which is something that I find really interesting. Like there's.... Which I know you could take like a rewritten fairy tale and call it like absolute historical fact, you know but have you ever had any Angela Carter books. **Spencer ** 09:22 I haven't. **Inmn ** 09:24 She got famous for like rewriting the for rewriting a lot of fairy tales. And people were like, "Oh, you rewrote them with like a feminist lens." And she was like, "I absolutely didn't. My goal was to bring out the innate horror in all of these stories, and these stories just happen to be really like femicide-idle. And so that reads is feminism because the main conflicts in them are misogyny." But there's this story called Lady of the House of Love. About this vampiress who like lives in a collapsing, ruinous castle in Transylvania and is the offspring of like Dracula or something, who's just like quite bored in the world at this point. And there's this like whole diatribe in the story about this guy who she lures into the castle who has been traveling around France in Europe on a bicycle. And this is my funny tie in, and this is like in... this is like, in the early days of World War Two when this... Yeah, that's what.... And it's like, it's like these little nods where I'm like, okay, it's it's a fictional story, but I'm like, that sounds like a real thing people did, just travel around Europe on a fucking bicycle. **Spencer ** 10:56 I am 100% sure that there is some real world influence. Yeah, there's all those memes, you'll see. Like, there's some Scandinavian guy who just lived by his bike forever and ever. And, you know, big beard and all that jazz. I can't think of his name. But I can only imagine that there's some truth or they met some weird guy in a cafe one day and decided to just write them into the story after that. **Inmn ** 11:23 Yeah. Okay, wait, but back to the things. So if you had to kind of put a definition on what bike packing is, what is bike packing? **Spencer ** 11:37 So I would even back up to just bike travel. So bike travel is riding your bike multi day--so that could include a single night--somewhere, taking whatever you need for that journey, whatever that may be. Totally self sufficient. Maybe just change the clothes and a credit card. But using your bike as a means to explore and travel to somewhere. **Inmn ** 12:08 Cool. Cool. That sounds right. And what.... I guess maybe this.... It's like maybe some of these specific classifications kind of seems like it maybe gets down to what kind of bike you're riding or what kind of gear you're using? Or like something? I don't know. **Spencer ** 12:35 Yeah, there's been some discussion last few years about intent. So by touring, they've gone to the more recreational side of the venn diagram. So people on vacation, people going for a weekend trip, or for enjoyment. And by packing has, since it came at a time when people were packing less stuff on their bikes in new and creative ways that lent itself to more off road or very light and fast travel. So some people had defined bike packing as like a racing intent or like a competitive intent. And there are bike packing races. Someone who's staying with me right now, Austin Trace, she's training to ride the Arizona Trail and possibly some others. And that's an incredibly long distance. That's 800 miles of off road. There's many like 3000 plus mile bike packing races that happen all over the world over. So some people say bike packing for that kind of competitive intent. Some people will say they're going bike packing, when they're going camping for a weekend. There isn't really a line in the sand that I can thoroughly really draw. Bike packing is definitely like a new buzzword that's popped up in the last few years. And it encompasses everything that bike travel or bike touring would, depending on who you talk to or how you want to delineate that. **Spencer ** 14:07 Yes. And this is another fun thing where we have like, you know, all bikepacking Is bike touring but maybe not all bike touring is bikepacking. So all road bikes are gravel bikes, but not all gravel bikes or road bikes. If you really want to get into it--and this is even...I just wrote a review talking about how the word gravel needs to be split into two things because we're getting a recreational version of what gravel means and a competitive version of what gravel means, and those things are very different. Roughly speaking a gravel bike is traditional-ish road bike. You know, curvy handlebars, road levers. You're just getting bigger tires and typically a more relaxed geometry. That's the easiest without going into a whole mess of other unnecessary details, but the just is road bikes with bigger tires optimized for riding on dirt roads, like farm roads, forest roads, things of that sort. **Inmn ** 14:07 Yeah. Okay, that makes...that makes sense. And then there's this other word that I've been hearing people use a lot lately, which is--and by lately, I mean, this is years ago and I'm just like, really behind the the ball on things--but like, gravel bikes? **Inmn ** 15:35 Okay. Where can you ride a bike? **Spencer ** 15:40 These days? Where are there **Inmn ** 15:41 Or rather where are places that you can not ride your bike to? **Spencer ** 15:46 Legally speaking or terrain-limiting speaking? **Inmn ** 15:50 Terrain. Let's go with terrain limiting for right now. **Spencer ** 15:54 Okay, we don't need to dive into like the Wilderness Act limitations on mechanized travel. There are, if you're looking into that, there are so many crazy bicycles out there these days. There are very few places that you could not ride a bicycle. You're looking at incredibly steep and loose terrain or very deep snow or sand. But even that...like there's so many cool things with...like fat bikes have opened up just an incredible amount of terrain and versatility that wasn't available even like, you know, 20 years ago to bikes. And that's even expanding now. I've heard about some cool stuff I can't talk about, but there is some cool new stuff coming down the line that I'm very excited about in the monster truck realm of bikes. So there's.... Off road in the last few years has just totally exploded with gravel, with the accessibility of fat bikes, and like what those can.... So, fat bike, if I'm talking about, you're talking about four to five inch tires. They're just massive. So you run those incredibly low pressures like 10psi You're riding on snow, you're riding on sand, like, you know, that just opens up so many things that you can experience by bike and can travel across. And you can type in "adventure fat bike," and you'll get some crazy shit in fucking Alaska. A bunch of my friends have done it and they're just like...they have little boats and they're putting a bike on boats and they're riding down beaches and like...just places you would never would ever expect you could ride or get a bike to. And they can get a bike there and they can ride it. So there's obviously limitations like verticality or steep terrain but as far as like surfaces, you're...the world's kind of your oyster these days with that. There's so many options. **Inmn ** 18:07 Okay. Wow. Some of those are new to me and I'm like, okay, cool. Cool. Cool. **Spencer ** 18:14 I have a fat bike I just built it. You can come over and ride it. Play monster truck. Come over here, Inmn. I'll show you next time you come over for dnd. **Inmn ** 18:22 Wow. Love it. I, you know, on.... So like a background for me is my first bike tour, I didn't know anything about bike touring. I just knew that I wanted to do it. And so me and my friend Marie, we like...I met her up in Portland and then we rode our bikes to--Portland, Oregon--and then we rode our bikes to Boston. **Spencer ** 18:56 Oh, wow. Okay. [Laughing with incredulity] My first bike tour was taking the train to Santa Barbara with my like messenger bag and then riding back to LA as an overnight. You went full hog. Okay. **Inmn ** 19:11 Yeah, first first time ever riding a bike more than I could ride it in a day. **Spencer ** 19:19 Impressive **Inmn ** 19:19 It...you know, we're gonna go with a blend of impressive and utterly reckless. **Spencer ** 19:30 I know and I want to talk to this in the end too. Like, you can be really reckless on a bike and if shit goes totally pear shaped just.... Yeah, and like the accessibility of things going wrong and the ability to fix those or to get out of those situations is just such a cool component of bicycle touring that you don't get with like cars or motorcycles or, I mean, I guess hiking even less so, like there's even less to pickup. But yeah, tell me the story. How did it all go, you know, on the way to Boston? **Spencer ** 20:05 Oh, those are the worst. **Inmn ** 20:05 Um, well actually, you know, we're going to talk about that a little bit later, probably. But just, as this one funny tie in, was that in Glacier National Park, we met a...we met someone who is about to finish his bike tour. And he had been...he'd ridden the entire continental divide on a bicycle with like a little, like one of those little swivel trailers. **Inmn ** 20:06 Or, actually I don't know what they're called. They're like two wheels, in line. **Spencer ** 20:20 Oh, the bob trailer. **Inmn ** 20:42 Yeah, the bob trailer. Yeah, yeah. And he had crossed the Continental Divide like 30 times or something over the course of it. And it was utterly incomprehensible to me at the time. I'm like, "Are you riding on trails?" And he was like, "Sort of?" **Spencer ** 21:03 If I may do a quick... So the Continental Divide Trail is a long distance hiking trail that is mostly not bikeable due to the Wilderness Act thing with the wilderness stuff. I think the route you're referring to is the Tour Divide. **Inmn ** 21:18 Yes. **Spencer ** 21:20 Yeah. So those things kind of get interchanged, but they're vastly different beasts. The Tour Divide is a very popular off road route that a lot of people do these days and is one of the first mapped long distance routes, and still remains one of the longer documented off road touring routes in the world, too, which is super cool. **Inmn ** 21:42 Cool. Okay, wait, I'm trying to try to follow a little bit of a thread here. [Pauses, thinking] And maybe this is where to start. How do you...how do you start traveling long distances by bike in, you know, whatever capacity, whether you're like, I want to ride to a neighboring city, I want to ride across the country. I want to ride into the wilderness. These are vastly different. How do you get started? How do you get started? **Spencer ** 22:19 So my start was literally, my friend in college gave a talk, and at the time I was a backpacker. I'd done some backpacking, like three, four days. Stuff like that. And my friend gave this talk about how she went to France and took a bunch of kids bike touring and they took all the camping gear and they put it on their bikes and they just rode their bikes for like two months. And that blew my fucking mind. I was like, wait, I could put all my camping gear on my bike and go ride my bike. And this is in the very like first few years of me riding bikes. I was like, "This is the shit. I love this. Wait, I can go camping and do this?" So that was my first introduction. And I literally, New Year's Day, 2009, I took my road bike and my like good o'le Chrome messenger bag and I zip tied my sleeping bag under my saddle rails on my road bike and I took the train to Santa Barbara and I rode from Santa Barbara down like Highway One, like out near point Magoo, and I camped for the night. And I rode back to Long Beach the next day. And that's part of the Pacific Coast bike touring route. So it's just another established route from Adventure Cycling, who also does the Tour Divide, which you mentioned earlier. And that was my first time properly traveling by bike, and I was like, "This is cool." And a few months later a good friend of mine, Julia, who had just ridden across the country, kind of as you did. I can't remeber if she started in San Francisco or Portland as well. But she did that same trans-america ride. And she was like, "Hey, I just got off school. Like, I don't want to drive back to Southern California. Do you want to just like take a bus up here, and we're gonna bike back to LA together?" So I went back a few months later that summer and tried...like I got a different bike that had racks and all that shit and some bags. And you know, as that ball rolls, you get more bags, you get more specific stuff, you get bikes that are designed for it. And then I rode back from Santa Cruz to LA and then I was like, "This is fucking sweet." So, two months later, I flew to Seattle and rode all the way back to Santa Cruz that same summer too. So that ball kind of rolled pretty quickly for me. So, I think it's literally taking...like at the time I had a messenger bag and a sleeping bag and a stuff sack and that was what I took and I had a little tiny pocket stove and a sleeping pad. I don't know if I even brought a sleeping pad. I might not have. I have to look back at the photos. It might have been strapped to my handlebars or something. But it's really what you have. If you have most any kind of like reasonably lightweight camping gear, from car camping to backpacking. Like, all of that gear translates. And if you have a bicycle, there's--especially these days--almost...there's so many ways that you can affix things to your bike. **Inmn ** 25:14 And yeah, it's kind of funny, because I feel like I've seen this funny arc of like "bike luggage" or something. I don't know what to call it. [Spencer laughs] Where, like, when I was trying to get into bike touring, it's like--I'm sure like gravel bike/bike packing/offroad stuff, I'm sure I'm sure all that stuff existed, but I was less aware of it. But in the realm of bike touring, it seemed to be all about like how to like really neatly contain a lot of stuff on a bicycle, you know? And, like, now I see people's gravel bike or bike packing setups, and it's literally just like shit strapped anywhere that it could be. **Spencer ** 26:02 Yeah, so if we're gonna get into like, if we're gonna delineate two words, we're gonna do bike touring on one side and we're gonna do bike packing on the other. If we look at bike touring luggage, or traditional touring luggage, was usually two to four panniers [rhymes with "your"], Panniers [Rhymes with "yay"]. There's a whole video you can watch about someone from Webster's talking to my buddy Russ about how to actually pronounce that fucking word. It's a bag strapped to a rack. You can argue about it all day long. Typically two to four panniers, maybe a little bag on your handlebars, some water bottles, that was kind of the traditional setup that's been around since the inception of bicycles. Bike packing is when we're moving to more off road focus. So you, obviously panniers are just little hooks on a rack and maybe a bungee. If you've ever written off road with those they don't...they tend to eject. I've got buddies who have got busted collarbones from catching someone's unwanted, flying paneer **Spencer ** 27:02 Oh, no. **Spencer ** 27:03 So in the other corner, we have more modern bike packing bags, which arose from a cottage industry of people developing bags for things that they wanted to do that didn't exist at the time. There's a ton of them, like Revelate Designs has been around since the beginning and were big pioneers in a lot of these venues. And typically what that looks like is you have a bag on your handlebars. It's typically a double sided stuff sack, say 10 to 15 liters. Smaller, bigger exist. That's rolled on there, secured with some straps. There's harnesses and all that jazz. A big thing in bike packing that has really bled out to a lot of the other aspects of cycling, it's really convenient, is using the main front triangle of your bike. So bags that fit the center of your bike and fill that space. **Inmn ** 27:56 That's like the spot kind of like underneath where you're sitting, right? It's like the space between the seat and the handle bars, right? **Spencer ** 28:01 Correct. So, if you're thinking about a bike frame, this kind of goes back to the--I wanted to actually mention this in the history too--so a double triangle, like a diamond. So you have two triangles. You have the front triangle and the rear triangle. That design has been around nearly since the inception of bikes and fundamentally hasn't changed, which is kind of miraculous. There's there's always going to be some kooky weird shit that people are cooking up to make bikes better. But 99% of bikes that have ever existed have been the same design, and it's still the best and most efficient. So, you're filling that front triangle with gear. So it's where you would typically have your water bottles and things like that, but being able to put four liters of water, as opposed to two bottles, and a bunch of camping gear is more efficient. So frame bag. And then there's a bag attached to your seat post called a rocket bag or a butt bag or...[laughs] And this is where stuff gets real bondage-y. There's like 17 straps holding those fucking things on. They sway if you don't pack them right. And there's a bunch of designs to make that better, and we're getting really close to really nailing it. So you have those kind of are your three main staples for bike packing bags. There's bags that strap your fork, there's bags that go onto your down tube, there's ones that attach to your stem to put snacks in. If there's a tiny spot in your bike, there's a bag for it, I guarantee it. And those are kind of your two corners of like bicycle luggage. **Inmn ** 29:32 I see. I see. You know, what I.... Something I weirdly really appreciate about some of these bike packing luggage, or whatever, is when I was...when I was first hearing about some of this and I was like, oh.... Like I remember like 10 years ago when people were starting to have frame bags and stuff, and I was like "Where do you get a frame bag, like where can I go and buy this?" And the answer was, you had to just know someone who fucked around and made one and wanted to make you one. And it was like...it's like watching an entire--like, you know, fuck an industry, but it does make it more accessible for people that there's like more people making these things--but an entire way of making things, or a culture of making things, like erupting from like watching some people just fuck around with fabric and like cordura and vinyl and shit and just like.... Yeah, I don't know. I feel like...yeah, it's like watching that and watching the same thing happen with messenger bags like 15-20--I know, it's been more--years ago. But I don't know, it's something I've weirdly always appreciated about like bikes is that there's been a lot of innovation not on an industrial level. It's like on the level of people just messing around with stuff in their garages and figuring out some really cool things. I don't know, does that...does that track? Is that real? Am I under the right perception? **Spencer ** 31:11 100% There are so many cottage bag makers and a lot of them have scaled up and some of them are still really small. And a lot of the innovation is still coming from those cottage industries. Big companies have caught up. So there are a multitude of companies offering frame bags produced overseas that you can get at REI or on Amazon. There's a there's a host of options. Industrial production has caught up to it. One thing that's cool that they will never be able to do is there's a bunch of frame bike bag sewers--builders? What's the word? And you can send them a photo and they've written their various different scripts and computer programs and you send them a photo of your bike with like a ruler in it. And they will make a custom tailored bag exactly to fit your bike where you can put bolts through it, like just over the internet. And that's somethingl.... Like I personally have one from Rogue Panda. Nick is a crazy mad scientist and incredibly innovative. Yeah, you can just send him a photo of your bike or if they have the dimensions already in their system, they just sew you an exactly perfect custom bag. So you can get a bunch of off the shelf things that will work for most bikes, but if you have a weird like I do, or many that I do, you can get a custom one, and that's something that's always going to be around as like a cottage level industry. **Inmn ** 32:38 Um, okay, how.... Or.... Okay, so say...let's say I want to...say I want I want to ride my bike from where I live to a neighboring city. It's like...maybe it's four days away, or something, by bike. What...or, this is a regular thing that I want to do. This is a thing that I want to kind of invest in doing. And I'm asking this from the perspective of, so like on my month long bike tour, I feel like there was a way to have a bike that I didn't fucking hate riding. And so I'm wondering...I'm wondering kind of like what kind of bike do I need to do that? What will make my life be less terrible? I was on an old Schwinn steel frame that I put a mountain bike drive train on, essentially. And some like other mountain bike parts. I like converted it to 700s [wheel size]. I didn't know anything about fat tires. I just had like-- **Spencer ** 34:03 It barely existed back then. So yeah. **Inmn ** 34:05 It was like, I don't know like one and a half inch ties. This is embarrassing to say at this point. **Spencer ** 34:14 That's fine. I can't tell you the breadth of dumb ideas around bicycle. **Inmn ** 34:22 Yeah, yeah. And it's like my life was so bad in comparison to my road partner who was riding a Surly Long Haul. [Specialty touring bike] **Spencer ** 34:34 Yeah. So to segue out of this, if you ask the internet, the internet's gonna tell you the Surly Long Haul Trucker's the best bike touring bike for blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to tell you right now, the Surly Long Haul Trucker rides like fucking dogshit without about 100 pounds of gear on it, and I don't think is the right bike for almost anyone in this current day and age ofbike touring. But let's get into your actual question. So the cool thing about touring is the bags will fit to most bikes without racks or rack mount. So if you have a bike that's comfortable, that fits you, it's probably...it can probably be made to be some kind of touring ready. So every bike is a bike touring bike if you have enough gumption. I've written tall bikes halfway across this country on multiple occasions. So I wanna say that you can always a specific bike tailored to the trip or the adventure you want to go on. But you can probably make whatever you have work. And I could recommend, if you give me more specifics, I could be like, yeah, you should get this size tire. This is a great bike for that. Like, height matters. All right, before I run away on this, let's start at the...let's start at the bike. So more important than any other consideration is whether you have a bike that's comfortable for you? Does it fit you? **Inmn ** 36:07 What does that mean? **Spencer ** 36:09 So bikes come in multiple sizes for different bodies, different heights. Like, I'm all torso. I've got relatively short legs for my height, but I'm like 6'1" so I ride an extra large bike. If you're 5' or shorter, you might write an extra small. That's going to be...those bikes are gonna fit differently. So there's a varying size run. So most importantly, you want a bike that fits you. And that's going to mean different things to different people, depending on if they have any back issues or what have you. So comfort is going to be kind of paramount to start. So your four day trip, is it off road? Is it mixed between the two? Is it single-track mountain biking? You're not going to take your Schwinn Varsity on a bunch of single track trails in Arizona, because you're not going to have any fillings or teeth left at the end of that ride. So, once you have a bike that's comfortable, once you have a bike that fits you, then you want to say, "Does this bike...is it adequate for the terrain?" And that's typically going to be tire size. So tires come in a bunch of different flavors, but you're pretty much looking at anywhere between a 26" rim, a 27.5" rim, or a 29" rim, which is also coloquially referred to as 700c. And those come in--oh my God I'm really in the rabbit hole here--so many sizes. But, so is your bike comfortable? Does your bike fit you? Do you now have the appropriate tire size for the terrain you hope to traverse? And we're going to assume that you have all of those things. And the next consideration will probably be luggage. So how much frame bag space do you have? Can you get a frame bag for it? Do you have mounts to put a rack on the front, or even the back, of the bike? You want to make panniers to go on there? You can strap anything, like anything with the stuff sack, you can strap. I mean the quintessential like bike co-op special is the old kitty litter boxes with hardware hooks and some bungee cords. Like, do you have a cat? Do you use cat litter? And these are all things that can become bike touring luggage. It's so up to you and how you can fit it. I've seen such a plethora. There's such a rich community of people DIYing these things. And there's ways to use like old cutting boards to make handlebar rolls to hold stuff sacks, you know? Like, I could go on and on. So the next thing you want to figure out is how are you going to pack all your shit on your bike? And okay, we've got that. There's a plethora. And next thing is food and water. Is there water available? Do I need a water filter along the way? Where can I get more food, snacks, etc... along the way? How many days of food I need to pack? Those water and food options are probably going to inform how you pack or what kind of luggage you're going to need, beecause those your essentials. Like if you want the bike to move, you have to pedal it and you have to be alive to do that. So you're gonna need to eat and drink. **Inmn ** 39:36 Yeah, can I have a little segue off that? It was funny on this cross-country bike tour, like our attitude about that changed throughout the trip, you know, where it was like--Marie definitely had more like bike touring experience than I did--but like when we started, we were in rural Oregon, we were in Montana, we were in all of these big western states. And we didn't have a water filter, which is probably something we should have brought. But like, you know, we weren't camping. We weren't--or sorry, we were camping every night, but we weren't trying to ride off to find nice places. We were like, whatever's along the road, you know? And so we were like, "Okay, well, we just have to bring all of this stuff with us." Like, I think we had like two weeks' worth of food each and three gallons of water on us at all times. And it was utterly absurd, like our bikes were so goddamn heavy. But we often went a week without going to a grocery store. **Spencer ** 40:57 That could be the reality of your trip. And there's some of these long distance routes, especially the off road ones.... Like road touring, if you're on established routes, like highways or secondary highways, you're gonna hit a gas station hopefully once a day, if not every other day. And like, you know, it's not gonna be great food. But that's...those are all considerations to how much you need to pack. And that's...that's typically the first thing I would be like where's my reasonable resupply? Especially ifwe live down to the desert, like water is the main concern and the limiting factor for a lot of my trips. Like how much do I have to carry? Where can I get it? How can I get it? **Inmn ** 41:39 Yeah, cuz it's like, you're not--unlike being in the Northwest or something, you're not just gonna happen on a stream that you can like.... **Spencer ** 41:47 Exactly. I mean, maybe you can if you know that's there. But that's a big if, and I've planned to get water from a stream and then I got there, and the stream was dry. And I was like, "Oh, this is going to be interesting." **Inmn ** 42:01 But yeah, sorry. You're talking about water, food, etc... I don't know what you were going to say next. **Spencer ** 42:09 Yeah. So once you figured out how much water and food you need to be able to carry between places that you can get water or food, then you're gonna go to gear. So clothing, is it going to be hot? Is it gonna be cold at night? And then you're thinking about sleeping. So tent, sleeping pad, sleeping bag, at the bare minimum. How warm is that sleeping bag need to be? What's the weather going to be like? Is it going to rain a lot? How nice of a tent do you need? How many people are going to fit in that tent? And once you've figured out those things, those are all going to inform all the decisions we made already about like luggage. Like oh, I need to make a three person tent because there's three of us. Are we going to split it? Yada yada yada. If you've been camping at all, you understand that these are like kind of the basic things you want to have with you. Or maybe you're going there's a hotel every night and you're like, I'm just gonna get a hotel in and take a shower, and people do that and it's great. It's a different way to tour. **Inmn ** 42:10 We met someone like that who was credit-card touring, as it's called, I think. And, you know, I have a friend who just writes crazy distances in like single times, but like meeting this person who was like...he had a very fancy performance road bike and a couple regular small water bottles and like some granola bars and in his fucking lycra pockets, or whatever, and a credit card that was it. That was every single thing this person had. **Inmn ** 43:07 Still bike touring. My 20 year old self would be would be shaking at me saying that but still bike touring. **Inmn ** 44:01 Yeah, I mean if you got a credit card and he just like fucking get a hotel every night. **Spencer ** 44:08 But, you know, these are considerations with things. Like, I've stayed at hotels on bike tours. Like I had a real shit day got rained on for like this last trip I did in the Midwest past summer. We got stuck in like damn near a tornado. And I was putting up our tent in the downpour rain and then it was drizzling the whole next day. And I was like, fuck it. I'm getting a hotel. Going off route. I'm going to a hotel. Sleep in this hotel and shower and dry all of our shit out. And these are things you want to consider and this is all part of what goes into considering to go on a bike trip. **Inmn ** 44:44 Yeah, um, so we're getting close to the end of our time for today. I didn't say this at the beginning, but this is a two part episode. And I'm wondering if we could kind of end today's episode with, could you just tell us a story about going on a bike tour. Could have gone well, could have gone horribly. Kind of whatever. Tell us about a trip that you went on and kind of like what... Yeah. Yeah. **Spencer ** 45:21 Alright, I'm gonna tell you about my favorite bike tour. And it will bring it back together because you met that lovely gentleman in Glacier on the Tour Divided some years ago. So my buddies Kurt and Sam--this was 2016--so fledgling days of kinda packing bags. This is when one of the bigger companies, Blackburn, was getting into making bags. They sponsored a bunch of folks to go ride big long off-road routes. My friends got this scholarship sponsorship thing. And I was like, okay, cool, like, I'm gonna go meet them. I just finished up work. I worked as a bicycle tour guide, but the van stuff, not so much the touring that we're talking about, but going to hotels, yadda yadda yadda. And I got off work, drove out there. I took my dad's hybrid from like 1994 and I strapped a bunch of bags to it. And we went riding down. They had like slick bikes, all the new bags. But the fun thing was they were big rock climbers at the time. So we were carrying all of our camping gear and a full 60 meter rope, a full trad rack of cams and nuts and like our climbing harnesses and shoes, and every week we were climbing at least once a week. So we're doing trad climbing up some mountains in Montana or Wyoming or wherever the hell we want that being that week. And we packed nothing. We had.... Like none of us had real tents. We have like one spare tube between us because we just didn't have room for anything with all the climbing gear. It was just so reckless and stupid. We hitchhiked a ton and climbed a bunch of shit that was really sketchy. And it still to this day is one of my favorite memories of traveling by bike, just getting to go climb and just riding those wide opens stretches of Montana, Wyoming, a little bit in Colorado. And it was just the dumbest fun. God I miss you, Sam and Kurt, if you're out there listening somewhere. That was my bike penultimate trip that had been on. It just...it was silly and dumbn. There's photos and videos of that from years ago that I can send you some links to or whatnot. But the joy I still take from those memories and that trip stick with me. **Inmn ** 47:35 Hell yeah. That's wonderful. Um, one of my like, weirdly favorite memories of going on bike tour was--and we'll talk about this a little more in part two--but is preparation, how to prepare for a trip, how tolike plan an actual trip, you know. And me and Marie didn't plan literally at all. We just hopped on our bikes and started riding. Every day we woke up and we were like, "Yeah, let's go on that road. That makes sense. Whatever. It'll be fine." Weirdly, we did end up on...we accidentally ended up on Adventure Cycling routes, you know? Which makes sense. They were the most logical roads to ride on. We just didn't know. But our lack of preparation and planning was actually the most fun part of the trip. **Spencer ** 48:39 So my buddy Kurt on that trip, and we did a bunch of subsequent trips, and I'm a big planner and Kurt hates planning. He made me fly to fucking Columbia with zero plan and like one half contact that we called when we got to Bogota and a bunch of paper maps and was like, "Nah, we're just gonna figure it out." Speaking of accidentally winding up on ACA routes, did you the pro move where you found someone riding in the opposite direction and you asked if they were done with their maps because you were going the opposite way? **Inmn ** 49:11 No, that would have been smart. But we didn't... We met a couple other people on bike tour. We were incredibly surprised. We met exactly three people on bike tour on a two month long trip and I was actually surprised about it. **Spencer ** 49:30 Wow. I wound up on that TransAm for a little bit. And I didn't have any maps because I was being a total of shit bird and would be like, "Hey, you done with that section?" cause I didn't want to buy maps. **Inmn ** 49:42 Yeah, they're expensive. **Spencer ** 49:45 I mean, Adventure Cycling is a really lovely organization that has done a lot of good and they're a nonprofit. Do you ever, did you guys go through Missoula and go to the headquarts? **Inmn ** 49:55 We did. We got the free ice cream. **Spencer ** 49:56 Popscicles and soda. Yeah. Okay, well, that's why those maps are so expensive is they gotta give free sodas and ice cream to all the dirt bag toursists that won't buy them. **Inmn ** 50:07 Yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, that about does it for the time that we have today. Before we go, are there any things that you want to plug, any projects, any places that people can find you on the internet where you would like to be found? Anything like that? **Spencer ** 50:29 Anything on social media, is just Spencer J. Harding. Like I said, I write for the theradavist.com. You can type my name in there and there's a bunch of reviews and trip reports and stuff like that. My website is just SpencerJharding.com. There's a bunch of photos organized there from a bunch of my bicycle travels, if you want to check that out. **Inmn ** 50:50 Yeah. Cool. Cool. And for folks who...just to let you know what we're gonna be talking about next time, next time being next week, we're gonna be talking about how to actually plan a bike trip, what are things you should be prepared for kind of like on the road, why traveling by bike is just a really cool idea--if you haven't been swayed already--what are its limitations, and how does this fit into preparedness models for any kind of collapse or disaster situation that we might be in. So tune in next time. **Inmn ** 51:33 If you enjoyed this podcast, then go hop on a bike and ride around and see what happens. And also, if you like this podcast, you can please just tell people about it. It's the best way that people hear about the show and one of the best ways to support us. But if you would like to support us in other, I think, sillier ways, you can support the show financially. And you can support us financially by supporting our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And the best way to support us is to go to tangledwilderness.org and buy some books. There's some really cool books you can buy. You can buy a cool TTRPG that me, Margaret, Casandra, and Robin wrote called Penumbra City. You can get a lots lots of other really cool books too. And you can also support us by supporting our Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And there's a bunch of different levels of support that you can give us, anywhere from like $5 a month, which kind of gets you a lot of cool stuff. It gets you discounts, it gets you digital versions of all of the stuff that we publish and just like lots of really cool updates. You can also get a zine mailed to you every month, that we put out as part of our monthly feature, which if you also just want to hear those, you can read them on our website or you can check out another podcast that I do called Ttrangers in a Tangled Wilderness, where we take our monthly feature and turn it into an audio zine and interview the author. And then there's another fun part of it, which is that for $20 a month, you can get us to thank or acknowledge anything that you want us to thank to or acknowledge, whether that be you or a cool organization that you want to get shouted out, or whether it's just someone you love and care about. Or as I'm still plugging for, a fictional or theoretical concept. So check us out on Patreon and we just want to give some special shout outs to these folks right now. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Tav and Inmn talk about the utility of waterways and the ways that industrialization has changed our relationship to waterways. Inmn learns new terrifying things about river rafting and how river guides really come up with the scariest things to name potential dangers. Guest Info Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Tav on Waterways **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin, and today we're going to be revisiting a subject that we've talked about before which is paddling on water. And we're going to talk a lot about rivers and we're gonna talk about—a little bit about planning trips and just generally the importance of getting to know your local waterways, with some specific contexts on places that are really cold. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo! **Inmn ** 01:43 And welcome back. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself and tell us just a little bit about what you—what you do in the world and what you're excited to talk about today? **Tav ** 01:59 Yeah, I'm Tav and I'm a, I guess broadly a wilderness guide from so-called Canada. Yeah, I've worked everywhere from the East Coast to Newfoundland, up to the Yukon. And yeah, I'm mostly a paddling guide, so everything from whitewater rafting, to sea kayaking, to canoeing, but I've also been known to guide hiking trips, and yeah, pretty much that's what I do. **Inmn ** 02:32 Cool, cool. That's—I feel like, you know, we've had people come on and talk about like, like arctic hiking, or hiking, or paddling, mostly in the desert, and I feel like—maybe this is just me having a very not understanding of all of these things for the most part. But what—I'm curious about, like, what kind of changes, like, in places where it gets super cold and you're having to be in the water? Which sounds cold. It sounds very cold to me.  **Tav ** 03:06 Um, yeah, I think the main thing is that it really depends on what—well, first of all, what time of year it is and, like, what exactly you're doing or planning on doing. So if you're going to be running rapids, you're certainly going to get wet. And so we have these things called dry suits, which are, well, it's kind of exactly what it sounds like. It's a suit that keeps you dry. They have these rubber gaskets on your wrists and your neck. So it, like, suctions completely to your neck and your wrists and the rest of its waterproof, including the feet. And you usually have, like I have these, call them river boots, and you just put them on over the suit. And then you're nice and protected. And you can wear warm stuff underneath if it's super cold out. But personally, I run hot. So generally, I find that like, just a base layer underneath is good enough for me. Because as soon as, like it really traps in all that air, so you stay pretty, you stay pretty warm. Even if you're in like really freezing water. But in other times of year, like to be honest, in the summer here, it gets pretty hot, like people—people don't really think of it. It's not like it's frozen year round. Obviously the waters running at a certain point and, especially these days, the summers can get up to, you know, like 30 degrees. And yeah. **Inmn ** 04:40 Cool. I'm gonna pretend I know what the conversion is on that. Wow, that's hot. **Tav ** 04:46 Yeah, I mean, it is pretty—it's probably not hot for you coming from the desert actually. But yeah, I think, I think broadly the biggest thing is always, at least for me, dressing as if you're gonna fall in the water. Unless it's really hot out. If it's really hot out and you fall in, it kind of feels great. But, but if it's chilly, you always dress like you're gonna go in the water, and not like you're just gonna have a nice day on the river. And yeah. **Inmn ** 05:25 Well, I guess like, I'm curious about, like, what the kind of preparedness like like, what—like, what do you what do you do if you fall in the water? What do you do if you fall in the water and you get wet? Like, what's—and your dry suit doesn't keep you dry? These scary questions that I have about being in the wilderness and being cold and wet.  **Tav ** 05:50 For sure. Definitely, I mean, so the first thing that's gonna happen it—and again, it all really depends on where you fall out. And like, because rivers are a very dynamic environment, actually, as one of my coworkers put it to me. He was more on the hiking side of things. And he told me that like paddling really scared him, because if something goes wrong on the river, you're still moving down the river as this thing is going wrong. So you have to like deal with the problem, but also maybe deal with a hazard that's like right in front of you. And then it's always about, like, figuring out what the best course of action is in regards to, like, dealing with the hazard, but also, you know, saving the person, and making sure everybody else who's still in the boat is safe. But I think broadly, what I tend to tell people if I'm taking them on a trip that's going to involve whitewater, is: the safest place on the river is in the boat. And if you're not in the boat, you should be on shore. So if I'm gonna, like, enter a bunch of rapids—and the other thing is actually, before I say that, you need to know, like, how to swim if you're gonna like be in whitewater. They call it a defensive swimming position. And you kind of sit back like you're in a lawn chair, and put your feet forward. And that way, if you like smashed into a rock, it's not your face that smashes into a rock, it's your feet. And you just kind of, like, you should have a lifejacket on. So that'll keep you floating. And, and then there's also, like, an offensive swimming position, which I wouldn't normally teach somebody, that's, yeah. Anyways, so yeah, so if I'm about to enter a bunch of rapids, I'll tend to tell people like, hey, if you do fall out, and for whatever reason you can't get back to the boat, you need to swim to the left shore or the right shore. Because sometimes it might not be safe to swim a certain direction and people don't know that and they're just gonna panic and swim whatever way seems the best. But if you let them know beforehand, like, hey, swim left, if something goes really wrong, I don't know, then they'll at least know the safer way to swim. Yeah. And then other than that, like, we have, I guess, a couple tools in our arsenal—and this should be the same with rivers everywhere. We'll have throw ropes, which are just some buoyant rope. And it's in a bag, and you throw it at people. And they should hopefully grab on to it and then you can pull them in to safety. And then there's obviously, again, like, as with all things, it can get more and more complicated depending on what the problem is. Actually, this one place I worked—I wasn't on this trip, but there was a person who got stuck on a piece of debris in the middle of a rapid which is, like, absolutely horrifying, especially because we've run that river—or that section of the river, like, a million times and that's never happened. So there was well, so—this is kind of insane, but there was a an old mill there, like a lumber mill. Or maybe it was a paper mill. I don't know, it was some industrial thing. And rather than, like, you know, when it went out of business, disposing of all the waste properly, they just decided, hey, there's this big river right there. Let's just throw the whole factory in the river. Why not? So there was all this big machinery and like metal under the water, and a lot of the rapids are actually created by that like big hunks of metal and stuff. But anyways, we had no idea that that, like, was there. And maybe it was just like the water level was perfectly right that day or perfectly wrong that day. But yeah, this person got like caught on their swim shorts, like, right on the piece of metal. And they were stuck in the middle of a rapid. So I cannot imagine what my friends went through trying to rescue that person. It must have been pretty terrifying. But yeah, so in situations like that, it would be like a much more complicated rescue than just like throwing a rope at them and hoping for the best. So yeah. **Inmn ** 10:23 Wow, that is—you unlocked a new fear for me. I thought that Blix had like gotten all of my fear out of me, you know, in horrible things that can happen in a river, and new fear unlocked. Thanks.  **Tav ** 10:39 Yeah.  **Inmn ** 10:43 What do you—I guess I'm curious—I guess my guess is, because boats, you just—I didn't know, boats are super interesting to me because, like you said, it's like the boat keeps moving down the river. And so it's like, I want to be like, okay, like, what, like, you know, what do you do if there's an emergency? What do you do if someone needs to be like, medivaced from an area like that? And I guess I'm expecting the answer is: put him in the boat and keep going. But—which is like a cool one interesting thing about boats, is they keep going?  **Tav ** 11:20 Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, it really depends. Like everything is situational, right?  **Inmn ** 11:26 Yeah yeah yeah.  **Tav ** 11:27 And you really have to assess the situation and figure out what the best course of action is. Like, the best thing to do might be to like pull over and call EMS and hope they can land like a bush plane or a helicopter near you, or get to a place where they can land it. I had this one evac where a lady actually had a stroke on the river.  **Inmn ** 11:53 Oh no. **Tav ** 11:53 Yeah, I was pretty terrible. I was the only person there with, like, you know, decent medical training. I'm not like a doctor or anything, but I have my wilderness first responder and all that fun stuff. And yeah, so it was just like me and these other guides, who had, like, some training, but not as much as me. And my coworker—love this guy, he's amazing—but he said that she had a concussion. And I was like, this is not a concussion. This is a stroke. Yeah. And so, so yeah, so what ended up happening is we had to take one of the boats and—honestly, mad respect to my to my coworker for this—he got her down like a 45 minute section of river and like 15 minutes. We were just lucky because we had a raft there with an oar frame on it. And those, like—an oar frame is just like, you know, like a rowboat— **Tav ** 12:51 —with like, the two oars and you're like rowing it. It's that, but you like, it's a big metal frame, and you like strap it down to the rafts. So instead of—like, if you have less than the ideal number of people, you can just have one person paddle the boat. So in that case, it was actually my group, where I only had like two people. So I just ended up strapping the warframe on because it's easier than having them paddle. So anyways, my coworker took that boat and just, like, ripped down the river faster than anybody ever has probably since then. So, so yeah, I mean, in that case, like, it was a serious medical problem, we couldn't deal with the problem, you know, you need to like, get that person to definitive care as fast as possible. And in that situation, we were close enough to the end, that the best thing to do was to just call EMS, get them to bring an ambulance to the takeout and get her there as fast as possible. But you might not be in a situation where that's, you know, plausible, you might have to call a bush plane or something like that. Or, even worse, like a bush plane can't come and you're stuck for like days with somebody with a serious medical problem. That can happen, unfortunately. Yeah. **Inmn ** 12:51 Oh okay.  **Inmn ** 14:18 Yeah. Yeah. I feel like—and I think this is a topic for another time—but I really want to—folks listening out there. This is my plug to our audience. I would really love to talk to someone at some point about like, like we have this idea in, like, wilderness first aid, response, etc. I have like an expired wilderness EMT. I haven't done that work in a very long time and my brain has totally fallen out of it. But like, interested in this conversation of like, long term care in, like, when definitive care is very far away, you know, like, how to troubleshoot situations where it's like, yeah, definitive care is days away. Definitive care is a week away. And I'm like really interested in talking to someone about that. So if that feels like you, Tav, or ambient listener, then send us a message. **Tav ** 15:31 Yeah, I can't say that's exactly my area of expertise. I can offer like, an anecdote from a friend of mine, who— **Inmn ** 15:41 Oh yeah. Love anecdotes. **Tav ** 15:43 —it's pretty, it's pretty grim. I'm not gonna lie. This guy is friend of mine, he's much older than me. He's been doing this river guide stuff for his whole life. And he's had lik three people die in his arms.  **Inmn ** 16:00 Oh my god.  **Tav ** 16:01 Yeah. But like that's, unfortunately, the reality of the situation where, if you're that far away, and someone's not getting there, and there's a serious problem, and you can't deal with it, that's what happens. Right? That's the unfortunate fact of existence. And it's pretty horrifying to realize. Also from a somewhat selfish perspective, like, if I continue along this career path that could very well be me telling another young person and a few years like, oh, yeah, this one horrible thing happened to me. And yeah, like, I've definitely seen my fair share of, like, pretty intense situations that could have gone pretty badly. Thankfully, I haven't had anybody die on any of the excursions I've been on. But be I've had some pretty close calls there. So yeah. It is it is something to always consider, like, when you're heading off on a trip that's going to be far away from a hospital or civilization, I guess. That, yeah, like you are far away, and you need to have a certain level of confidence in yourself to deal with the situations that you might need to deal with. But also, in that, like, for me, it comes with a certain level of, like, risk acceptance. And like, everybody has a different level of risk tolerance. You might not be the person who's going to go, like, on a month long trip through the wilderness. That might not be okay with you. And that's fine, it's not for everybody. You know, in my case, the way I tend to look at it is, like, if there's a problem I can't deal with—pretending I'm alone in this scenario—like, if there's a problem I can't deal with myself, and it's so serious that I'm gonna die, like, in a few minutes, then like, I just accept that, like, that's what's gonna happen. Like, if I can't deal with the problem, and I can't call for help with the problem and it's that bad anyways, then I'm alread—can I swear on this? Is this a no swearing show? **Inmn ** 18:31 Oh, yeah, you can, yeah. **Tav ** 18:32 I can swear? Okay, I was gonna say, I'm already in a lot of shit if that's—if that's happening. So for me, my risk tolerance, I mean, it might be higher than others. But I don't know—it's just like, something you have to accept when it comes to taking risks. I mean, you can be prepared and informed and know everything and still an accident can happen. And then you just have to accept that, yeah, accidents happen, and it might be a really big, bad accident. So, so yeah. **Inmn ** 19:06 Yeah. Yeah, that' very true. I feel like—I feel like there's a lot of aspects of our societies that have kind of—have had our, like, brains adapt to this idea that, like, that there is always a solution to something. And I feel like this was like a big thing with, like, with COVID, like, for a lot of people, was the expectation that there was a solution to something, and a lot of people, like, getting to the ER and being like, oh, there actually isn't a solution right now—or there isn't like a one 100%, like guarantee that this problem can be fixed. And yeah, I don't know. It's—I think that's the thing that I've been thinking a lot about, is how our societies have kind of expected there to always be a guaranteed solution to something that there might not be a solution to. And I think that's like—I think that's getting more extreme as things in the world change more. There's—when we are used to certainty, there is now more uncertainty. That is an articulate thought, I'm gonna stand by it. **Tav ** 20:42 Yeah. No, I mean, definitely. Like, I could see that in society at large, actually, now that you mentioned it. But like, yeah, I mean, with regards to wilderness travel, I think anybody who does this sort of thing, like you have an understanding of the risk involved, and like what—you know, there's things that you can deal with there and there's things you can't deal with. And, yeah, like, but I mean, okay, you know, I also don't want to scare people. It's not—like, yes, you have to kind of look within yourself and accept that something bad might happen. But at the same time, I've done, like, I don't even want to know how many 1000s of hours of paddling in my life. And I, yeah, I've had, like, some problems. But I think a lot of those kind of stem from the fact that it's my job. And I'm taking people out there who aren't necessarily prepared for what they're going to—like, they go online and they're like, oh, I want to go on a guided paddling trip. And they Google, whatever, paddling in the Yukon. And then they find this company and they book a trip and they go. And that's all the preparation and thought that they put into it. Where—and that's exactly what they're paying for, I guess, if you look at it from like a service perspective. They're paying for somebody else to do all of that thought. And what I'm, what I do, like, independently—like if somebody listening wanted to go out paddling, if you just, like, talk to somebody who knows what they're doing locally—like join your local paddling club, a lot of places have those, or like find a group online—and like, learn from people or learn from the Internet. We have a lovely resource of, like, all of the information anyone could ever want. So, yeah, it doesn't have to be dangerous. I think most of the danger, and most of the dangerous situations I've been in, happen simply because it's my job to take unprepared people out into the wilderness. And, like, that kind of sucks. I—that's why I'm not actually working as a guide this summer. One of the reasons is because I'm pretty tired of dealing with unprepared people in the wilderness because it's stressful. It's really stressful. And yeah, so I mean, I guess the the main point is, like, it doesn't have to be dangerous as long as you're prepared. And I think that's a pretty great theme, considering this show. **Inmn ** 23:43 Yeah, yeah. And it's—I don't know, like, I totally understand the outlook of someone who's like, yes, I want to pay someone else to be prepared for me. And it's like, you know, reality is very different from, like, adventure tourism. But like, it's funny because it's a thing that is like a little antithetical to preparedness in general. And I'm divorcing adventure tourism and preparedness, like, because they're different things.  **Tav ** 24:21 Yeah. **Inmn ** 24:21 But, yeah, it's like, that is the thing that we're always trying to talk about on this show is, like, if in our own lives, like, if we are all more prepared than it—then like your prepper friend has to, like, do less when stuff goes wrong because everyone's a little bit prepared.  **Tav ** 24:41 Yeah, for sure.  **Inmn ** 24:44 I kind of want to switch tacks a little bit though and talk about this other thing. So I'm curious—I guess in, like, in the Yukon specifically, like, there's places where I live that I'm, like, okay, yes, that is a less accessible place via like roads and things like that. But I'm curious kind of like what the Yukon and, like, that whole area is like in terms of, like, history of transportation and stuff like that. Because, like, waterways have played kind of like a pretty large part in that from what you've told me before this—and now I sound like it's something I already knew.  **Tav ** 25:27 Yeah, for sure. To be honest, it's not just the Yukon. Throughout this country we call Canada, if you actually look at all of Canadian history, like, Canada's like three companies in a trench coat. Always has been. And it was founded on fur trading. Right. And how that was done is basically, like, white people came over, and then they met the ndigenous people. And they were like, wow, these people move pretty far and they have some neat boats. And then they kind of co-opted those boats. And of course, Indigenous people and Metis people took part in the fur trade as well. A very large part, to be honest, in making sure a lot of white people didn't just die in the wilderness. Yeah, but like throughout this entire nation's history, every single place is really connected by water. Like that's just how people got around. Everywhere from, like, the far north, the Inuit had kayaks and—actually dogsleds. ou know, when the sea froze in the winter, they had greater mobility, because—I mean, and they're still moving over water, it's just frozen water, which is kind of like land. But it, yeah, so every single place in this entire so-called country is connected by water in some capacity. And I think that really forms the way that I look at places now. Because yes, we use roads to get around now. But very likely, there is another way to get anywhere you want to get. Because all of these settlements are built on rivers, on lakes, on the ocean, and the way people got there is probably on a boat, and not on a car because we didn't have cars 400 years ago. So yeah, I guess I just, I think it's really important to recognize that and recognize that it's still very very possible to go extremely long distances. And, you know, reach inaccessible, quote/unquote places with relative ease, to be honest. So actually, something that's pretty insane to me—it's mind boggling, to be quite honest: the longest river system in the country is the Mackenzie River. And it's technically, like, if you go by names, it's a bunch of different rivers that are connected. But it's really, like, from source to sea—I don't actually remember how many kilometers it is. But you can go from Alberta, like, around Jasper, if anybody knows where that is, all the way to the Arctic Ocean on a single river. And you can do that in like a single summer, too. And throughout that whole river, there's a bunch of towns. And a lot of them are not accessible by road, but they are very easily accessible by the river. So if you really think about it, like, in my mind, they're not inaccessible places. They seem inaccessible because of our modern transportation infrastructure, which, you know, makes anything that doesn't have a road seem like it's impossible to get to and you have to spend thousands of dollars and fly or whatever. But really, all it takes is, like, one person in a canoe and you can just go anywhere you want. Yeah. **Inmn ** 29:31 Yeah, that stuff is super interesting. It's like the—I don't know, it's like, I get on some level that, you know, cars are convenient. I love being able to drive somewhere. But it's like, I don't know, obviously cars are also terrible and we need different—we need something different before the planet dies. But It's like also this thing that, like, it's like car—I imagine that like switching over a transportation system to be, like, based on moving around on the river versus based on, like, driving around on some roads that demolish a bunch of shit. It also, like, divorces us from nature and like any connection that we have to, like, the natural landscape that we are using. And, like, used to be on the river and now it's put the remains of petrified trees in your thing and blast around on concrete or whatever. I don't know. It's just funny. **Tav ** 30:43 Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely—cars are—I wish I could just live out of a canoe. But that, I can't do that. I mean, I live in my car right now. So I get their convenience. But I do think that as, like, as things progress and the climate gets worse and worse, and I mean, even now, this is probably going to mean absolutely nothing to you—Oh, you know what, actually, I was in Alaska, like, the other day. And it's actually a bit cheaper than here. But the gasoline that I purchased was $5.50 American per gallon, which I think is $1.67, or .68 per liter. What I normally—like in the Yukon, it's like 1$.80 to $1.90 per liter right now, which, it's getting pretty unaffordable to go large, long distances in a in a car. And I think that like as this progresses, like—they're not getting—these prices are not getting cheaper, inflation is continuing, and it's quickly going to become really hard, I think, for your average person to go anywhere in a vehicle when it's costing them, like, over $100 to fill a single tank. And that's, I think, where we have to return to what we did historically, which is travel on rivers. And I mean, it's not even just returning to, like, historical transport, I guess. Like we can still use road infrastructure, a lot of people bike everywhere. And you can go pretty long distance—like actually, it's super common in the Yukon to see people biking the entire Klondike highway, or the entire Dempster highway, like all the way to the Arctic Ocean, which is pretty awesome. **Inmn ** 31:27 Whoa.  **Tav ** 32:03 Yeah, yeah, I see them all the time, actually. Yeah, so—but anyways, the point being like, as we're getting, like, priced out of these things that we once took for granted, we're gonna have to understand that, like, people think about collapse and preparedness from really local perspective. And I think that's great. Really, I think getting more local is awesome. But I think what people also forget about is the fact that, like, we still are really an interconnected species. And we always have been, even before modern globalization. Like people really were traveling very far to go trade or whatever, on rivers or on the sea. And I think it's important to recognize that we probably should still be doing that because it does strengthen everybody's community. Like, just, I don't know, checking in on the community next door, or, you know, a few kilometers down the river is important too and, you know, sharing, I guess. Like, I guess there's inter-community preparedness and then intra-community preparedness. And I like to think that, like, using the environment and more specifically the waterways to like stay connected, even when we can't drive everywhere, is is pretty important. **Inmn ** 34:15 Yeah, I don't know. We live in a—we live in a strange world now. Um, I, you know, I didn't know this for a while and finding it out kind of blew my mind in a funny little way. But um, as far as like the eastern half of the United States is, like, someone told me that it is technically an island because you can circumnavigate the, like, eastern half of the United States and a boat. And this has, like, always kind of blown my mind. Like I'm not going to remember what the actual waterways all are, but it's like you can go from Lake Michigan to the Mississippi—whichever one of those lakes connects to the Mississippi—and like take the Mississippi down and then, like, get out into the Gulf and like sail around Florida, and like sail up the Atlantic, and then, like, through—it might be through a series of rivers and it might require using a canal, but you can like, get right back into the Great Lakes system. Like the Hudson Bay, or something. And— **Tav ** 34:50 —probably the same. I mean, if I was gonna do that I'd do the St. Lawrence River. **Inmn ** 35:47 But cool. Yeah. I don't actually know what these waterways are. **Tav ** 35:52 Yeah, for sure. I spend, like, way too much time of my life, like, I'm looking at a map and being like, okay, where does this river lead, and I'm, like, follow the river, like, all the way to its source. And then I go, like, all the way to the sea. And I'm like, okay, that's how far I can get there. But what if I portaged to this lake, and then I take that lake to this river. And like, anyways, I have, like, a whole folder have these like map files of just, like, random paddling routes that I've planned out. And I probably won't get to do all of them. But, yeah, I just, I am kind of a nerd in that I just like to go figure out, like, how I can get around places. Yeah. It's really crazy. Like, once you start—once you realize, like, your mind is opened up to the fact that, like, you can travel, basically anywhere on a boat, all you have to do is look at the blue lines on a map and trace them and figure out how you get from point A to point B using them. And I think it's also actually important to note that, like—so in a context of—yeah, like, in a context of a world where we're not able to use our highways and stuff. Like that, following a river or a creek, even if you don't have a boat, is a great way to make sure you know where you're going. Because, yeah, like, I mean, it's like a really obvious landmark. And you can just follow it the whole way. Especially in places where rivers are super seasonal, like, part of the year, it might literally just be like a bit of gravel, and you can just walk on it all the way to where you're going. Yeah, so I think that's also important to mention, that they're not—it's not just boats, it's just that they're very convenient ways to traverse a landscape, especially one that's, like, heavily forested. There might not be like a lot of other clearings nearby, so yeah. **Inmn ** 38:01 Yeah. Um, have you—so this like folder of, like, wacky routes—I'm gonna call them wacky routes—have you gotten to—could you tell us about a creative, like, trip that you took via waterways. Or, like, what's like the longest that you've traveled in like—I don't have words for the things that I'm asking you... **Tav ** 38:28 Yeah. Honestly, like, the longest trip I've ever done is unfortunately with my job, and that would be about a 10 day trip on the Yukon River. But—and that's just, it's mostly like a time thing. Like I said, you know, I—it's—we live in this cold place, and the water's only running for, like, a certain amount of time. And unfortunately, I've made it my livelihood to, like, spend my entire summer taking other people on trips. So in terms of my, like, crazy, wacky trips, I haven't gotten to do, like, any of the big ones that I want to actually do. Because, you know, they take, like, a month or more. And I just don't have a month because I need to make money.  **Inmn ** 39:17 Yeah. **Tav ** 39:18 But I'm hoping that will change this summer. I'm planning on a very long trip at the end of August, and it should be awesome.  **Inmn ** 39:28 Cool. **Tav ** 39:29 But yeah, so. So yeah, I guess in that respect, I haven't done any of those like ones that I concoct that are kind of wild. But I do like to just go and explore, like, little waterways and figure out, I don't know—I just like find a river and I'll go upstream. Or, actually a few days ago I did—I went just downstream and I I literally walked back to my car at the end, it was just a day thing. And that kind of sucks, being alone, because you're like, oh, cool, I did this river. And now I'm gonna just like walk back to my car and drive and pick up my boat. But yeah, I wish I had more cool stories of me on my own doing things that I want to do, but capitalism exists and all my fun river stories are with tourists that I'm taking. So. **Inmn ** 40:31 Yeah, that makes sense. What is this trip that you're planning gonna be like? **Tav ** 40:40 Yeah, so actually I have a couple different options in that regard, and it is kind of gonna depend on, like, what's on fire and what's not on fire. So, but my main route that I want to take is, basically, it'll be I think 1000–1500 kilometers. And, yeah, and it'll be from this place called Eagle Plains, which is, like, in the Arctic—it's like right kind of on, slightly below the Arctic Circle, on the Dempster highway. And I'll start on the Eagle River, and then go through a series of other rivers. I'll reach Old Crow, which is the furthest north settlement in the Yukon. And then I'll take the Porcupine all the way across Alaska—I'll cross into Alaska. And that'll take me down to the Yukon River. I'll hit up a couple towns on the Yukon River in Alaska, and then I'll get off at the last point where there's road access. That the trip that I'd like to do if the fires allow me. **Inmn ** 41:58 Yeah, yeah. Um, what—are there—I guess like, when planning—when planning a trip that is not, like, a super pre established, I guess, route or something, are there any things that that are important to consider or important to, like, prepare for? **Tav ** 42:19 Yeah, for sure. The first thing is, I wouldn't recommend doing a non pre established route unless you kind of know what you're doing. But the second thing is that, like, basically, my strategy is: I figured out the route. I map it out. And then I scour the internet for information on any of these rivers. So in this case, all of the rivers—it's actually very likely somebody has done this route before. Like, I'm definitely not the only person to think of it. At the very least, some Indigenous people did it, 100%, before I did. **Tav ** 43:01 Yeah. **Tav ** 43:02 Yeah. But yeah, it's a pretty obvious one, as far as routes go. It's just a bunch of rivers, and they all kind of feed into each other. There's no, like, crazy portages I hope—there shouldn't be any crazy portages or anything like that. I have heard one of the rivers runs pretty low sometimes, so I might have to, like, drag my boat along. But um, yeah, so. So yeah, and that—like I met people who've done the route up to Old Crow before. So I know that—I've heard about that portion from a couple of people that I know. And, yeah, other than that, I look online. And, like, you just have to kind of incessantly Google until something comes up about the river you want. And like, it's probably going to be some like, weird, obscure blog from 2006 where someone's like, I paddled this river with my friends and it was cool. And like, it might not even have, like, all the information that you need. But, like, to me, a lot of the time I'm like, okay, cool, if someone did it, that means it's probably fine, right. And that's kind of my strategy. Like, you're not gonna get all of the information you want. But you can get a lot of information just by, like, scouring the internet. And actually, go to your local bookstore. If you're going to like plan a river trip near you, go to a bookstore—or not your local bookstore if it's not near you. Go to the bookstore there and look for maps, because they probably have maps of local places. And if they don't have maps, you should ask them where to get maps, because they probably know where to get maps. I know in Canada, though, you can go on natural resources, Natural Resources Canada, and they should have like topographic maps of the entire country if you need, like, that kind of math. But you can also just, like, go on Google. But, um, but yeah, I guess mostly it comes down to getting information from wherever you can get your information from, whether that's people who've done it, the internet, or your local bookstore. And the second thing is, if you're doing a route you're unfamiliar with, especially if you're alone, you have to be cautious, and you have to know what to look for. And you have to be able to react really quickly to situations. Actually, literally a couple of days ago I was paddling this river in Alaska and the water's really low because of the time of year. And I was coming around a bend and there was a sweeper right across the river. And what happened is the river really, really narrowed, like, in this section. And it just, like, it went right for the sweeper—a sweeper is a tree that's like right across the water. So if you think about it, like, a broom, it'll be like right over up the surface. And then there's all these like branches on the way. And I think there was like a log and there's like other stuff underneath the sweeper. It was not a fun thing to be like hurtling towards really quickly. And yeah, so I was alone. And I, like, swung my boat around and, like, jumped out—because like, it was really low water so that it was shallow, which made it much easier to just, like, jump out of my boat as fast as possible and, like, drag it on shore. But like, it's stuff like that, where you're not necessarily expecting it and then you're like, oh shit, like, I need to deal with this right now. Get out of the way. And I actually lost my paddle it went down—I got it. It's fine. That's why you always have a spare paddle. That's the moral of the story. Have two paddles.  **Inmn ** 47:09 I feel like the moral of the story is: river guides continue to come up with horrifying names for dangers in the river. I thought I had heard the worst but "sweeper" is—sorry this is uh, this is a call back to Blix telling me about, like, just the—I forget what they're—I feel like one of them was called a "blender," and I— **Tav ** 47:35 Blender? I dunno about a blender. Maybe American river guides have different names for stuff. I don't know. I don't know. To me, the most horrifying feature on a river is an undercut. And it's unfortunately something that comes up a lot in places where the rivers freeze. So what will happen is like the banks will be covered in ice. And if you're—and if you're paddling at that time of year, there'll be undercuts along the whole riverbank, like the whole way down the river. And an undercut is basically just where the current goes like underneath a ledge right? At the worst case, it can be, like, a recirculating current under there. So like you get sucked under in like basically an underwater cave. And then it just, like, like, circles you around underneath and like an underwater cave and you just, like, sit there and die.  **Inmn ** 48:30 [Quietly] God. **Tav ** 48:30 Yeah, so that's what an undercut is. And then like the ice undercuts and kind of terrifying, something to be aware of if you're going to be paddling a river during spring or fall. Yeah, those are—to me, that's the most terrifying thing. Because like a lot of other stuff, there's like a way to kind of get around it or, like, you know, figure it out. But if you get sucked into an undercut you're kind of boned. Like you're pretty—there's not a lot you can do. **Inmn ** 49:03 Yeah. **Tav ** 49:04 Especially if you're alone. There's other people—I've heard of someone who got sucked into an undercard on the Ottawa River actually. And, like, there's this—I don't remember the name of the rapid, but there's this one part that's like this crazy undercut. And someone got sucked in there. And they got a rope on them somehow. And they had a truck, like a pickup truck. And they were pulling them out of the current with a pickup truck and the rope snapped. And, like, the pickup truck couldn't even go against the current. Like they were just stuck under—that person didn't live. But yeah, like it can be pretty—those are—yeah, again, that's like the most extreme horrifying thing I think to me, but... **Inmn ** 49:50 Stay away from—I know we're just—we're talking about our rivers are cool, but everyone's stay away from rivers. Golly. That's not my actual advice. **Tav ** 50:02 I think it—no—they're definitely—like that's the thing, right? They're definitely a force of nature. I always like to tell people: you will never win a fight against a river. But that doesn't mean you should be afraid of going on the river always, like, yeah, I feel like I've been talking about a lot of negative bad things that can happen. And I don't want to freak people out. Rivers are really nice and cool, and they help you get places, and it can be really fun. It's not all whitewater. Like, the Yukon River is a giant—like it's a highway. It's like, huge, flat river. It goes like 10 kilometers an hour or something crazy. Like, you can paddle it super fast. And there's, like, basically no hazards. Like, there's like some log jams and like stuff like that, but they're very easily avoided. And it's, yeah, as far as, like, as far as rivers go, if you want to go a long distance and not have to worry about any of that scary, complicated stuff, the Yukon river is fantastic. Actually, every year there's a race called the Yukon River Quest, where people paddle from Whitehorse to Dawson City, it's like 730 kilometers, and yeah, people are doing that in like, three days. Well, less than three days actually. Like they're times because you have to like stop-there's a mandatory rest point where you have to sleep for a certain number of hours, and they don't count that towards the final time, but basically the the race lasts like three days. That's like paddling nonstop. But to be honest, if you think about the fact that you don't have a motor, and you're not in a car or anything like that, and you're traveling 730 kilometers in three days, that's crazy. And there's like no hazards. It's so crazy. **Inmn ** 50:18 That's really cool.  **Tav ** 50:32 Yeah, you can go really fast and get places on certain rivers. **Tav ** 51:21 Cool. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, that sounds fun now. Now that sounds fun.  **Tav ** 52:09 Yeah.  **Inmn ** 52:12 Um, we're kind of coming up to the end of our time. Is there anything else you want to say about waterways, or paddling, or any questions that I didn't ask you that you're like, golly, why didn't Inman asked me about this.  **Tav ** 52:29 Yeah, um, I guess mainly just—I think I didn't get to talk about oceans as much as I would have liked to. But, like, I think the main thing I would hope people can take away from this is that it's really important to learn about the water near you, if that's the ocean, if that's a river, if that's a lake. You know, learn about whatever boa, the Indigenous people in your area use to travel on that water, because it's probably really well suited for it, to be honest. And yeah, just learn about your local waterway, learn about the ecosystem. I didn't get to talk about that as much too, but—because I'm really into traveling rivers—but they're also sources of food and just, like, life for everyone, you know. So learn about what animals live there, learn about how to help your river, and—or the ocean. And just learn about your local water and have some kind of relationship with it, whether that's, like, paddling or, like, picking blueberries on the riverbank. I think it's just important that everybody is aware of water and the life that it brings us and how it connects all of us. Yeah. I think that's that's it.  **Inmn ** 54:00 Cool. That seems like a great—that is a better place to end on than the blender—the sweeper—whatever that terrifying name was. Is there anything that you want to shout out, whether it's places people can find you on the internet where you would like to be found, or projects, or just anything you want to plug or shout out?  **Tav ** 54:25 Um, yeah, like, I guess I have a tiny YouTube channel that like doesn't have really much—it's mostly just my music, if anybody cares at all. It's, um, I'm birchbark online. You can find me there. That's whatever. But I think the main thing I want to plug is: go have a nice day by the water and be nice to yourself. **Inmn ** 55:00 Cool. That's a great thing. I'm going to go find water. I think there's water here right now.  **Tav ** 55:08 Awesome. **Inmn ** 55:08 I will try. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. **Tav ** 55:14  Yeah, for sure. Thanks. Thanks for having me. **Inmn ** 55:21 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go learn more about your local waterways. And also come up with a new and terrifying name for a river obstacle so that I might live in fear of water forever. But also, if you liked the show, you can support it. And you can support it by telling people about the show, or doing stuff that involves an algorithm. I don't actually really know anything about any of that. But there is stuff that one can do. Also, if you would like to support the show, you can support it financially. And you can support it financially by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can find us at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And you can sign up for different tiers. There's a super basic tier where you just get discounts. I mean, not just you, you get discounts and you get access to digital content. And there's another tier where you can get a zine that we send you every month, and it's a really cool zine. Sometimes it's a short story, sometimes it's poetry, sometimes it's an essay about something. And they're all really cool. And you can listen to those features in audio form on our other podcast, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, and you can listen to interviews with the author, it's really cool. And in all of the ways that you support our publisher financially, it goes towards paying our audio engineer, and paying our transcriptionist, and maybe one day paying the hosts and the guests of the show. And, yeah, that's all that. We would like to give some special shout outs to some of our patrons who support us at the acknowledgement level. And just to plug how cool the acknowledgement level is: If you give us $20 a month, which goes towards us doing really cool things, then you can get us to shout out, acknowledge, or thank an organization, yourself, someone that you love, or a fictional and theoretical concept on all of our shows—except for things like, you know, if you ask us to think the Empire, we're not going to thank the Empire. So don't try. But we would like to give some special things to these folks: Thank you, Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patolli Erik, Buck, Julia, CatGut, Marm Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, Anonymous funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much for making this show and so many other projects possible. Thanks so much for listening, and we hope that everyone's doing as well as they can with everything that's happening in the world. And we'll see you next time. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Brooke, Margaret, and Inmn talk about some news from Gaza, the climate, hurricanes, University occupations, Texas' latest attempt to become a mini fief, abortion laws that are older than states, an update on an Arizona gun law, Taylor Swift, and TikTok. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: This Month in the Apocalypse: April, 2024 **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. Oh, wait. Brooke, you had a better... You wrote us a new jingle to sing, right? Why don't you do that right now?  **Brooke ** 00:26 [Singing] I wrote us to do jingle to sing. Bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling. **Margaret ** 00:36 And that's now our jingle forever. that doesn't even include our name in it. That's what happens when...  Right before we hit record, we were like who's going to record the intro. And I was like, I'm going to record the intro because I have an idea. And my idea was to make Brooke come up with something to sing off the top of her head, because I'm a good person. But who's not a good person.... Wait, I'm not introducing the bad stuff yet. More good stuff. Also a host today is Inmn. Hi, Inmn. **Inmn ** 01:06 Hello, hello. I hope everyone is doing as well as they can in our in our great times. **Margaret ** 01:15 Statistically, at least one of you is punched a cop in the last week. So that's pretty cool. And also, we're a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. [Singing] This is a new jingle for a show on the network. It goes like this. **Margaret ** 01:46 And we're back. So anything happened in the world this month, Inmn? **Inmn ** 02:22 Nope. Not at all.  **Brooke ** 02:24 Everything was good. Bye, yall!   **Inmn ** 02:26 Absolutely. Absolutely nothing has happened. Only sunshine.  **Margaret ** 02:29 What if we just did updates about like the things that we saw on TV? I guess that's a different kind of podcast. It's the wildest thing. Velma got the Scooby Doo gang together... Anyway.  **Inmn ** 02:43 We do This Month in the Apocalypse, but it's only it's only from the fictional worlds that we spend too much time inhabiting. [Everyone lauging] **Margaret ** 02:52 I conquered the entire world for my god. **Brooke ** 02:56 My child has been watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer because she's been curious about this show that was like my formative high school experience **Margaret ** 03:05 Aw, to like connect with you, watching old people shows like Buffy. **Brooke ** 03:09 Right? So that's what's happening in the world right now in my world. Yeah. Wow. **Inmn ** 03:14 You know, every once in a while it lines up though. Because, you know, I was recently watching, as part of my delve back to things I watched in high school, which is the Gilmore Girls, the family that I grew up with on TV. And they actually talk about Palestine quite often in the show. Or like they mentioned that... They mention that that stuff is happening, which lines up politically with like when the show was on the air and there was also a lot of bad stuff happening in Palestine. And but I don't think the show's creators were... They were kind of like adopting a neutral but mostly support Israel thing, which is, you know, it's-- **Margaret ** 04:07 Not our line here. **Inmn ** 04:11 Which is not our line here, but is... How much can you expect from mainstream TV? Like I wasn't surprised to rewatch it and discover this. **Margaret ** 04:24 So what's our Gaza update? **Inmn ** 04:27 Yes, this is my very funny segue into Gaza stuff. **Margaret ** 04:31 No, it's good.  **Inmn ** 04:32 Yeah, so... Which, I mean, there's nothing absolutely nothing funny about this. But so there's like a big... There's like big kind of like ceasefire talks happening right now, which I feel like this is something... You know, obviously people have been wanting there to be ceasefire talks for a long time and they they sort of happen and then Israel's, like, "We're not doing ceasefire talks. Fuck everyone." But they're... In this more recent round, while people kind of like imminently await a ground invasion of Rafah, which like the last little southern piece of Gaza that pretty much everyone who lives in Gaza has been forced into. And Hamas has responded to a call for ceasefire negotiation talks, saying that in order to start negotiations, they need for there to be a ceasefire. And part of part of what they're asking for at this point is like, yeah, we're willing to talk about hostage stuff, because I think they are still like 130 hostages, or something--  **Margaret ** 06:03 Which is sort of--like from a pure detached point of view--like kind of impressive that they've still held on to these hostages, as the entire region falls? **Inmn ** 06:16 Yeah, yeah. And-- **Margaret ** 06:20 Like, tactically impressive. **Inmn ** 06:25 Yeah. And they. So, kind of what they're asking for is like, yeah, we're willing to play ball. We're willing to do... like, we're willing to release hostages. But what we what we need is for Palestinian people to have  basic human rights, and to not get bombed, and for there to be a ceasefire. And what do you think Israel's response to these like, pretty, pretty basic requests were? **Margaret ** 06:56 Did they build a time machine to kill all the peoples'.... No, they probably already did kill all those people's parents. Nevermind. Something really disproportionately, impressively evil. That's my guess. **Inmn ** 07:12 Yeah, well, it's kind of like.... So you know how this thing happens in politics, sometimes, where people kind of talk up a response as being much more internally conflictual than it actually is? The same things kind of happening in Israel were awaiting Netanyahu's response, like all of the like defense, prime ministers and stuff have been like, "If you don't continue with a ground invasion, we're abdicating and your government's going to fall apart." And Netanyahu was has vowed multiple times that regardless of whether negotiations happen, or there is a ceasefire, that a ground invasion of Rafah will happen. So it's kind of like fake strife, like fake internal strife. You know? Cool. And, yeah, that's kind of the state of the ceasefire talks. And something... This is just a piece that I've been trying to learn a little bit more about, which is a topic on a lot of people's mind, which is like, "Jey, Egypt, what's up? Why aren't you letting people into Egypt to escape genocide?" And there's kind of a few different factors at place. And one interesting development on that is that Egypt has started to build a buffered wall zone. Like a border between the border kind of thing. Which is just like a giant concrete pen that can fit about 150,000, people that they're building in anticipation of the border between Rafah and Egypt rupturing during  Israel's ground invasion of Rafah, which they've... which Israel's all but announced is imminently going to happen. And likepart of what Egypt has said about this is they have been saying like, "Oh, well, we don't want to let people cross over into Egypt because we don't want people to then not be allowed back into Palestine when the war is over." It's kind of like this farcical idea that Israel's gonna do a war, take care of Hamas, and then just like peacefully leave Palestinians to like go about their lives. **Margaret ** 09:47 Yeah, I mean, like, it is true that... It certainly seems likely to me that Israel will not let anyone back in after they leave because Israel seems pretty clear that their goal--and has been their goal since 1895. Can I tell you a thing I learned about this? Sorry. **Inmn ** 10:05 Yeah, absolutely, please. **Margaret ** 10:09 I'm not sure when this podcast comes out. I just recently recorded, and it'll be out around the same time, an episode of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff about Palestinian resistance to the British Mandate of Palestine, basically the period between 1917 and 1948. Well, technically, the Mandate kicked in, in 1922. But after the British control started, right? And in that I learned a little bit more--like maybe a lot of the listeners already know this stuff--but everything that's happening now was in the diaries, and often public statements, of all of the founders of the State of Israel, down to very specifically like, "No, we are going to absolutely remove all of the--" they would never use the word Palestinians. They wouldn't even use the word Arabs. They specifically only said "non Jewish people" when they refer to the people who are already living in Palestine. And it's just really, blatantly clear that since the beginning, the project of Israel has been not just to create an Israeli State--or sorry, a Jewish state--but to remove non Jewish people. **Inmn ** 11:24 Yeah, yeah. And it's--yeah. Which it's like part of that, that makes it really confusing to see Egypt's response-- **Margaret ** 11:35 I mean, I'm sure they're still doing it because they're bastards. But that part about like, oh, well, no one would be allowed back. That's probably true.  **Inmn ** 11:45 But it's probably true regardless. And like Egypt not wanting people to go into Egypt, I think is probably more based on Egypt's fear of being drawn into a military conflict with Israel or, as they've also stated, Hamas kind of like migrating to Egypt and like taking up the fight in Egypt. And so it's... they're kind of adopting a "tread on no one's feet and just kind of not let anyone in" kind of situation, all while saying that it's for the... it's better for Palestinian people to be trapped in the city. You know?  **Margaret ** 12:30 Can I do one other random history interjection about all this because it's on my mind.  **Inmn ** 12:34 Totally.  **Margaret ** 12:36 Okay, so there's this huge revolt in 1936, where all of the--especially the Muslims and the Christians fought--against the Zionist takeover of their land, you know? And, and their main military enemy at this point wasn't the Israeli settler or the Jewish--the zionist settlers--it was the British, right? Because the British were in control. The British used human shields. The British invented the fucking Mad Max car.  **Inmn ** 13:11 Oh my god.  **Margaret ** 13:12 They actually invented it in Ireland where they strap a guy.... They invented it by, you take an Irishman and you strap him to the front of a car and now the other Irish are afraid to fucking shoot the car or blow up the car because they don't want to kill their own guy. And there's photos of this. There is a photo in Palestine of the British in an armored car with like kind of a... It's not like a guy crudely lashed to the front Mad Max style like totally, but it is instead almost worse. It's like they went and manufactured a little cart that sticks in front of the car with two guys tied up on it. Anyway, there's the whole like, every accusation is a confession thing, and I think no government in the world has ever been more guilty of that than Israel. **Inmn ** 14:05 Yeah, yeah. That's very, very true. But yeah, that's kind of the state of things in Gaza right now. And just because I was curious about this, I looked it up and like, for a lot of folks who are raising money for people to, for families, to get elsewhere from from Rafa, it's like those current... It's like that that is something that is possible to happen but it kind of involves...it involves a lot of bribing and involves a lot of waiting for a long time and a lot of just finagling political situations, and it costs anywhere from like 5000 to like $10,000 per person. So it's very expensive, but but it is something that's happening, but it's mostly available to rich people right now. **Margaret ** 15:02 And there's a lot of fundraising going on. And I wish I had a link more directly in front of me. There's people who have collected together spreadsheets where they keep track of all of the families that need to get out, and like what their specific fundraisers are and stuff like that. **Inmn ** 15:17 Yeah. But Margaret, what's kind of been happening with people's responses to stuff going on in Gaza here in the States? **Margaret ** 15:29 So one of the things about the way that we do the show is that there is a lag between when we record things and when we put things out, so don't... So we're not going to like do like the news about the occupation movement that's happening now in the US, we're going to kind of really briefly touch on it. But I'm guessing most of you all are more familiar already what's happening with that than this show, which will be a little bit out of date by the time you hear it. But there is a huge movement across the US, especially this week, as we record, of--maybe even more so in the future, you know, who knows, every social movement goes different directions--of students taking over their universities and demanding that their universities divest from Israel. And it's really shattered a lot of the.... The more pro-Zionist elements of the mainstream media are still touting the like, "And these are anti-semitic protests." But that line is failing more and more on.... Like, people aren't hearing it anymore. People are like, "That's so clearly not true. The people at the front of this are the Jewish Voices for Peace," like, you know? It's like more and more people aren't falling for it. And so there's a big culture war thing that's happening. I got really lucky in that I was scheduled to speak at the New School anyway last week, or something--I lose track of time, all the time--to some students who had read one of my books, and then the occupation had kicked off. So instead, I was sort of invited--like anyone from the occupation was invited to come--and we talked, instead of talking about my book, we talked about the directions that social movements go and how they succeed and fail. And I don't know, maybe we'll do a episode about that at some point. But those movements are fiery and interesting. Anyone who's listening who's part of them, don't let the fucking liberal sell you out, and don't let the fucking authoritarians take you over. And that's what's involved. And don't let the cops divide you into "good protestor, bad protester." Those are the ways that people try to sell you out. And you can not get sold out until you, at the very least, get the demands of divestment. And as we're recording, this is the stuff that might change. As we're recording, I think it's Brown University is starting to enter negotiations about divesting from Israel. Whereas Colombia, where a lot of this started, is promising suspensions. And everyone's like, "You don't understand. Stopping this genocide is more important to us than our stupid--" you know, like, I think people don't get.... And then in the right-wing, and even some of the Liberals, are all like, "I don't get it. This isn't even a war that's happening in the US?" and everyone is like, "Basic fucking empathy? Like what the fuck is wrong with you?" Another kind of protest that happened that I actually only found out recently is that around 50 Google employees were fired because of a non-violent protests that they took against a Google contract, a project called Project Nimbus, which is an AI that has been used by the Israeli government that was developed by Google. Google denies certain parts of their claims around project Nimbus. But the 50 employees are currently suing, I think through the Labor Board, to get their jobs back. And so there's other ways that people are standing up about this. And we've been, of course, seen some other ways all across the US for the past six months and all across the world. **Inmn ** 18:58 Yeah, and just to like shout out this thing real quick because I thought it was really cool. It's this trend of people kind of like...it's like fighting in any possible way they can to do something for people in Palestine. And like outside of university encampments and stuff, it's like finding ways to act in solidarity with those struggles or to just find other little gaps in the armor. But shout out to the bus drivers union in New York City for utterly refusing to transport a bunch of people who were mass arrested at at a demonstration. They're like, "No, no. We're not letting the NYPD commandeer our buses and make us their accomplices," and they just refused to transport people.  **Margaret ** 19:57 I think this is a really important part of why.... Like,  labor organizing fell out of style until--well, about five years ago picked back up again--but overall, there's this idea that like, "Oh, class, reductionism. And like, you know, it's boring. And that's the old way of doing organizing and shit." And there's like some problems with the way that labor organizing has been done, especially in the middle of the 20th century, when they created a bunch of corrupt organizations--that were still better jobs--but, you know, they lacked the fiery interestingness of early 20th century and late 19th century unions. But sorry, who knew I was just gonna talk about history this whole time. But this is the other thing about what unions are, is like in order to.... This is what is involved when we talk about building workers power, like building power among the people who actually have to work for a living versus the people who can make money off of the fact that we work for a living, like having the bus the union be like, "No, we're not transporting prisoners." and they can say that because they have power within their own workplace, even though they don't own their workplace, which is like the next step. That's what you want to build to after you build a union, you know? But anyway, unions. Fucking cool. Y'all ready to talk about climate? **Inmn ** 21:14 God, no.  **Brooke ** 21:16 Never. **Margaret ** 21:16 Well--I know this is the thing I keep coming back to--this is the thing that always slips through the cracks of even radical news because it is easier to wrap our mind around things that feel incredibly direct and present. And that is not to say that these direct and present things don't deserve our attention. They absolutely do. But keeping in mind the climate context that we all live in, I think is important. So I'm gonna tell you some stuff about it. Almost the entire continental US is forecast to have a hotter than usual summer, surprising nobody. The only exception to this is basically North Dakota and some of the like areas that like--nature doesn't really care about our borders-- that might be the same. Everywhere else is expected to be hotter. In particular, the swath cutting across Eastern Oregon and Montana and then cutting all the way down through all of Texas, kind of at an angle, that is the huge swath of the country that is like extra expected to be way hotter. And southern Alaska is the only place in the US on the map that I saw--Hawaii wasn't on this map--where it might be colder than usual. But most of Alaska will still be warmer than usual. The Rocky Mountains are expected to be dry. And the East Coast, especially the South, is expecting a wetter than normal summer. The actual wildfire prediction map for this coming summer is mostly normal--new normal, so bad--but mostly new normal. With the Sierra Nevadas in Southern California, like LA and kind of that surrounding area, are actually less fire likely than normal. And then the more likely fire than normal is Idaho, like southern Idaho into Nevada and Utah. **Brooke ** 23:10 Was gonna say that a lot of Idaho has had a lot of fires a lot of years. **Margaret ** 23:15 But it's like this map is like not totally the map of where you look and expect wildfires, which is not to say there's not gonna be wildfires everywhere. It's just that's the current anticipation. The National Weather Service has put together a heat risk website that does a daily forecast and a weekly forecast that also shows like where people are more at risk for heat problems. And it takes into consideration the wet bulb temperature and access to all kinds of stuff. There's actually a fair amount of adaptation that is happening by scientists and some of our infrastructure to try and figure out how to handle.... Because like some people are taking climate seriously and some of those people have access to weather data and shit, you know? April, as of this recording on the last day of April, was probably the 11th straight month of the hottest of that month on record across the world. Which means that if we pull it off next year, every single month for a year will have been the hottest ever. There is a 55% chance that this year will top 2023 as the hottest year on record. The reason that we might not beat last year--I know everyone's rooting for us but we might not pull it off because the other side will be like "Well they had us in the first half." We're expecting a slightly cooler than normal fall and stuff because of La Nina weather patterns hitting. However, La Nina weather patterns are gonna fuck up a whole bunch other stuff. And okay, I know you all are ready to root for America, number one. so you want to hear something else that we are number one about across the world?  **Brooke ** 24:57 No.  **Margaret ** 24:59 Economic impact of natural disasters. Doesn't that kind of surprise you? **Brooke ** 25:03 What? Say more. **Inmn ** 25:06 I've heard a little bit about this. **Margaret ** 25:09 We are number two in our spending related to per capita wealth, but we're number one in total spending on this kind of stuff. It costs us about point .4% of our gross domestic product every year to take care of natural disasters. This is twice China and four times Canada. And, I mean, it's just because we suck and Capitalism sucks, is the is the reason why this is happening. Home Insurance went up 21% between 2002 and 2023. A ton of people are just going uninsured because they can't afford it anymore. Also, insurers are jacking up prices and/or entirely pulling out of certain areas. And now a lot of countries just kind of say, "Well, we kind of just can't build where there's fires and mudslides all the time." But America is like, "No way. This is our country. You can build wherever you want." And so there's also like fewer building codes and stuff around how to make houses that makes sense in your area in terms of disaster and climate and things like that. So that's something we're really good at, is spending money that we shouldn't have had to spend. There's been a whole bunch in the past couple months. In April there's been a whole bunch of tornadoes that have moved through Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and north Texas. However, we are currently lower than normal by a little bit on tornadoes. However, they've been a little bit more deadly than normal, I believe. And overall, this is expected to be a fairly more active than usual tornado season coming up. So if you're in the Great Plains and the tornado lands, which is of course, as I think we've talked about before, the tornado belt is like slowly moving east because of climate change. Speaking of the American South, it is facing some of the most rapid sea rise in the world. We, once again America is number one--I don't know if we're number one. We're actually not number one. But we're doing... We're doing pretty good. We have twice the worldwide average in sea level rise. Isn't that? Anyway... **Inmn ** 27:15 Which means that there's going to be a lot new beachfront property. **Margaret ** 27:22 I mean, a lot of the old, a lot the old beachfront property has gone away. Or rather, people are like struggling to hold on to it. A lot of places across the American south have already gotten four, six, or eight inches of sea level rise since 2010. The highest is Galveston, Texas with 8.4 inches. And the results of this, of course, are wetlands are drowning, which leaves areas more vulnerable to storms. We'll talk about the hurricane season in a second. Septic systems are backing up and contaminating waterways. Insurance companies are just dipping out entirely. And roads are now below high tide in plenty of places. People are periodically cut off. Why don't we hear about this more? Well, because the people who are affected are Black. That's why. Environmental racism is a real thing. A lot of these areas have had specific redlining policies in place, or used to be in place, or whatever. The economic landscape is such that people of color, and especially Black people, are living in the flattest areas that are the lowest to sea level and in the most risk, and it is largely poor places that people have already not cared about because this is where a lot of like pollution happens, you know? Other fun news... The kind of thing that like.... I feel like every week there's something that should have been big enough news for us to entirely overthrow the world order, but a whole bunch of-- **Brooke ** 28:51 I'm concerned about what you call fun, Margaret. **Margaret ** 28:54 You take it where you can find it, ya know? Okay, so I'll explain my idea of fun. The very beginning of the movie Gladiator, right? I don't give a shit about the rest of the movie Gladiator. But there's this is one scene where the Roman army, who are somehow the good guys in this situation (they're not the good guys), they're attacking the Goths. And obviously, the Goths are good because they're goths.  **Inmn ** 29:20 Yeah, we love that.  **Margaret ** 29:20 And at one point, the barbarians come out of the woods and they're like holding the Roman messenger's head and then they all grab their axes and run screaming into the Roman army. and to their own death-- **Inmn ** 29:34 Which is how no army ever fought ever.  **Margaret ** 29:36 Yeah, I know. It's also not a very good way to fight, specifically, the Roman army. nd at least in the movie Gladiator, they all die horribly. There's a certain honesty to that. There's a certain honesty to just being like, "This isn't about winning or losing. This is about like, 'Can we fucking do this?"" But we can't because we don't have.... We're not in a revolution and individual actions don't.... This is the sketchiest thing I've ever said on the show. So anyway, a slew of documents came out, showing that oil companies in their private correspondence are like, "We're not going to bother meeting any of the Paris agreements. Why would we do that? There's nothing in it for us. We don't care." And they're just ignoring it in their private correspondence, while of course, they're all publicly like, "Oh, we're so committed to it." And it's just like, and the.... You know, and this isn't like weird conspiracy stuff. The Democrats introduced this in Congress, you know? And it's just like one of these things where it's just like, well the oil companies shouldn't be allowed to exist anymore. That seems fucking obvious, right? Anyway, I don't have a better tactical idea. And that didn't work in Gladiator. So I don't recommend it. Flash floods killed at least 169 people in Kenya in April. About 150,000 people in the country have been displaced by the rains. More than half of the country is facing intense flooding right now. Dubai got two years' worth of rain in one day at the end of April. It was 10 inches in 24 hours, the heaviest it's had in the past 75 years. The more center and center-right media is like, "Oh, it's because they're doing cloud seeding. They reap what they sowed." But the Washington Post article I read about this was like, "It wasn't fucking cloud seeding. It was fucking climate change." And that makes sense to me. Hurricanes. I promise you hurricanes. Colorado State University researchers are predicting a very active hurricane season this year. They're guessing there will be 24 named storms. And the way that we like named storms is that there's like 21 letters of the alphabet that we use. I don't know why it's 21 and not 26. I didn't bother looking it up. And then they're like, "Oh, fuck, we're out of things. And then they like do other shit, you know? Because when they first started naming hurricanes and tropical storms, they didn't really imagine that there would be more than 21 of them in a year. But now this is the third or fourth year. There's been like three years in the past couple of years where they've run out of names. And this one, they're expecting probably 24. They're guessing--again, this is all forecasting and this is not certain--that starting June 1st with hurricane season they're guessing it'll be about eleven hurricanes with five of them being major because the accumulated cyclone energy in the...mother of storms--it probably is a science name, but Mother of storms is cooler--is twice normal. And this is bad. It's like only a little bit worse than the new normal. So it's like bad, and the new normal is bad,  but what I'm not saying is "2024 year is gonna be the worst ever, and we're all gonna fucking die in hurricanes. And everyone needs to leave New Orleans." is not what I'm saying. Although, maybe? But it's just the new bad and a little worse than usual, a little incremental. **Brooke ** 33:05 Maybe they need to give those four-five sidelines letters a chance at being part of the naming process and then-- **Margaret ** 33:14 What five letters is it? I bet it's like X-- **Brooke ** 33:17 Yeah, and Z. Give X a chance. **Margaret ** 33:21 What about Xereses? Does that start with and X? **Brooke ** 33:24 There we go. Zeus.  **Margaret ** 33:26 Well, Xerxes is probably not in the Roman alphabet anyway. We can transliterate things however we want. **Inmn ** 33:36 It's kind of like the emergence of the new category six, the theoretical--we talked about it earlier this year--but the theoretical category six hurricane, which we might see this year.  **Margaret ** 33:48 Cool.  **Inmn ** 33:52 New albums about to drop! **Brooke ** 33:58 But Taylor Switft already put out a new album. What are you talking about? Oh, that's my news clip for the month. That's all I need to share. **Margaret ** 34:05 Oh, yeah. **Brooke ** 34:06 Taylor Swift put out a new album. **Inmn ** 34:08 I wonder... I wonder how many of our listeners are Swifties?  **Margaret ** 34:14 I bet a good amount.  **Inmn ** 34:15 Yeah, not a condemnation. Just a curiosity. **Margaret ** 34:18 I think about a quarter of my friends really like Taylor Swift. But the thing that I have said on Twitter that has been the most controversial and the thing that has most people thinking I'm a liar is when I said I cannot name a Taylor Swift song and would not be able to pick her out of a lineup.  **Brooke ** 34:35 What?  **Margaret ** 34:36 People think I'm lying. I'm not lying.  **Brooke ** 34:38 I think you're lying.  **Margaret ** 34:40 I'm not lying.  **Inmn ** 34:41 I do not think Margaret is lying. [Laughing]  **Margaret ** 34:44 If you put three 30 year old blonde, white singers in front of me, it would be a...I'd have a 33% chance of fucking picking Taylor Swift. Now, I'm certain I've heard some Taylor Swift songs, but I would not know they're Taylor Swift songs. And this is not like.... I'm not even saying this as a a point of pride. I mean, okay a little bit because I'm a fucking contrarian asshole, but that's not something I'm proud of. I'm not proud of my own pride about this. **Brooke ** 35:13 This is now going to be a Taylor Swift episode. Goodbye to the news. Hello to me singing Taylor Swift songs to Margaret. **Margaret ** 35:21 But then do like one of them that's not a Taylor Swift song in the middle and see if I can tell you which one it is.  **Margaret ** 35:26 Totally. Yeah.  **Margaret ** 35:29 [singing] "Where have all the flowers gone." That one's not her. **Inmn ** 35:33 That is not Taylor Swift. [Brooke singing unknow (presumably) Taylor Swift song in the background]  **Margaret ** 35:37 Wait, we don't want to get sued. And I don't want to hear Taylor Swift. Oh my God, no, I actually am a bad person. There's nothing inherently good or bad about being interested in pop culture. Alright. But speaking of hurricanes, the East Atlantic's warmth is three months ahead of schedule for the average of the past four years. Not for the old average but for the new average. The East Atlantic's warmth is, on April 2nd it was as warm as July 2nd is on the average. And then there's one other piece of bad news. But then I have positive news. Or, then I have like neutral news. The one other piece of bad news is that, as of this recording, King Charles III has not died of cancer. [Disappointed grons] I also wouldn't be able to pick him out of a lineup. That's not... I don't know if that one's true.  **Brooke ** 36:37 70 year old white man. Yeah, no. Yeah, probably not. At least not if he's in normal clothes. **Inmn ** 36:43 Um, well. Yeah, I absolutely believe all of that. Weirdly in.... I'm gonna say a controversial-- **Margaret ** 36:51 I thought you didn't believe me about Taylor Swift.said you believedno, I, I  **Inmn ** 36:53 What? Margaret I believe you. **Margaret ** 36:56 Oh, that's right. It was Brooke that didn't believe me.  **Brooke ** 36:58 Inmn trusts you about everything. **Inmn ** 37:00 I feel like I'm one of the few people that just very much knows this to be true in a real way. **Margaret ** 37:09 That's true. Inmn has seen me live in an off grid cabin in the middle of the woods. **Inmn ** 37:17 But, so, like, Arizona... I'm going to talk a little bit about Arizona. Arizona weirdly has been like, like we just had one of our wetter springs ever. And cooler springs. To the point where, there's like a big outdoor thing that happens in the last week of March every year, and we were scrambling to find new places...like an indoor venue for it because it was raining and we were all like, "When the fuck has it ever rained at the end of March?"  **Margaret ** 37:49 Yeah, you're supposed to only get rain in the monsoon season in like what, Fall or something? **Inmn ** 37:56 It's in like July-August. And then like, we do have a winter rainy season. It's just hit or miss. But March? March is weird. Like it rained like four times in a week in March. And I was like, "What's going on?" And like, just because it was a big outdoor performance was the only reason I was like that asshole who's like "Why the fuck is it raining in this desert?" you know? [Everyone laughing] **Margaret ** 38:24 "I moved here for one reason: I hate water." **Inmn ** 38:27 Yeah. But I have some other updates from Arizona. Shout out to.... Shout out to Logan, who is a bud who always texts me like weird, really in-depth updates about headlines that we touch on and then is like, "Inmn, the story is so much bigger than you thought it was!" And I'm like--  **Margaret ** 38:48 That's cool.   **Inmn ** 38:49 Please keep sending me these updates. So on a previous This Month, we talked about this expansion of kind of like Castle Doctrine in Arizona, which is like aimed at like, you can defend your...you can like essentially shoot and kill people without repercussions for trespassing, not only into your house, but on your property. And Logan was telling me that.... So the reason that this law was being pursued--you know, there's speculation about it being very anti-migrant--and it was actually in response to this criminal case where George Alan Kelly, who lives just north of Nogales, encountered some people crossing over his land, right near and along the Border, and he, suspecting them of being migrants, just held up an AK-47 and started shooting at them from 100 yards away. And he killed one of them. He killed Cuen-Buetimea, who was a 48 year old man who lived in Nogales. And some of the people in the group, who were then witnesses in the trial, attested to just, you know, crossing for work. And the person who was killed has two adult daughters who live in Nogales. And they were trying to pass this law ahead of the trial so that George Allen Kelly would not be accountable to wildly shooting a gun into the air and killing someone. But George Allen Kelly was...there was a mistrial due to jurors not being able to come to a unanimous decision. And it does not appear, as of right now, that prosecutors are going to try to refile charges. So yeah. Some other stuff going on in Arizona is.... So this is kind of like good news, bad news. And it's gonna start with some bad news. On April 9th, the Arizona Supreme Court made a ruling upholding an 1864 law that declares a near-total ban on all abortions, carrying a two to five year prison sentence for doctors who perform abortions except to preserve the life of the person giving birth. And yeah, so this is like from.... Prior to this, Arizona was a 15 week abortion ban. And currently, as we wait, we're like still waiting for this law to go into effect in like June, I think. But, so in June there will be a near-total ban on abortion in Arizona. But the Arizona House just passed a bill that would repeal this law from 1864. And this is a law that was passed before Arizona was a state. **Margaret ** 42:15 Yeah, that was like the first thing, when someone was like.... I didn't reshare this when I first came across it because I was like, "Arizona didn't exist. This is..." Because it's always like people come up with this horrible thing that's happening. And about half the time it's true and half the time it's not. Yeah, I totally didn't believe this one at first, because I was like, "There wasn't a state called Arizona. There was a territory and they had their territorial laws." **Inmn ** 42:16 Yeah. And the Arizona Supreme Court has somehow upheld this law. But the House just passed a bill to repeal it. And we're recording this on Tuesday. As of April 30th, tomorrow, Wednesday May 1st, the Senate is expected to pass the bill that would repeal this 1864 law. **Margaret ** 43:09 Didn't even Trump come out against that law? **Inmn ** 43:13 I don't know. **Margaret ** 43:14 I think I watched a video of Trump kind of being like, "Maybe that one wasn't the move."  **Inmn ** 43:21 That would be wild.  **Margaret ** 43:23 Because that one I think, was bad enough that I think that there's  bipartisan anger at it. **Inmn ** 43:31 Yeah. Which is kind of how.... That's like how stuff has progressed in the House and the Senate is like it... It required bipartisan agreement in the House. And it will require like two Republican senators to get on board for the Senate vote, which there are two that are expected to vote for the bill that would repeal the ban.  **Margaret ** 43:54 They're just trying to not get up put up against the wall. Anyway, Margaret's in a weird mood today. **Inmn ** 44:01 Yeah, and, you know, one last kind of bad world thing--bad politics--in the realm of some Republican-led states really trying to be their own little mini fiefs and like testing state-federal stress test, whatever shenanigans. So, Title IX regulations were just updated. And they were updated.... They were amended to include specifically protections against discrimination based on sexual-orientation and gender identity. Whereas previously, it was just based on being a woman, essentially. And for folks who don't know, Title IX regulations are for educational institutions that receive federal funding, they have to abide by certain regulations in order to receive that funding, which is, you know, most public schools. And big surprise, guess which three states? Florida, Tennessee, and Texas are all essentially either instructing their education systems to not listen to, to not uphold the regulations, or just straight out suing the Department of Education over it. And the rallying cry around that is, big surprise, sports and trans athletes. Surprisingly, the new Title IX regulations say absolutely nothing about sports. So it's like they're rallying around something that the new regulations have not even codified. **Margaret ** 45:55 I mean, literally, the only time that these people pay attention to women's sports is when they're worried about trans women existing. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know. **Inmn ** 46:08 Yeah. But Margaret, you have some maybe good things to tell us? **Margaret ** 46:15 I got neutral stuff first. TikTok has been officially... The law passed that TikTok is now--not immediately--banned in the United States. TikTok has been.... Its parent company, which is based in Beijing, has nine months to sell it. And so by any realistic standard, it'll be about a year before TikTok would do any disappearing. And then of course, obviously you can ban software. But that's not a easy thing to enforce. It would get taken down off of like the Google Play Store and the Apple Store and stuff like that, but people who had it still would have it. And then it would get buggier and buggier or in shittier and shittier as updates are unable to go out, unless people use VPNs to get from another country, etc, etc. **Margaret ** 47:02 There's ways around it? What? [Sarcastically] **Margaret ** 47:06 I know. It's also completely possible that since every one involved is a capitalist, they're probably like, "Alright, well, we'll sell the fucking thing. Like, who cares?" You know? That's like my guess. I don't know, I could be wrong about that. I would be surprised if TikTok ends up going away because of this. However, the actual thing that I think ties into this is there is a bipartisan bill that people are working on, called Kids Off Social Media Act, which wants to say that kids under 13 should not be on social media, and pass all kinds of like things about how like algorithms can't focus on anyone 17 and under. And just like lots of like, "social media is bad for kids." And now I think social media is probably bad for everyone. However, to me....  I haven't given us a lot of thought. It seems like a basic free speech issue. And also, like, old people fighting the future and screaming at clouds kind of moment. And the idea of banning TikTok, I'm like.... Okay, I'm not accelerationist. I don't think things should get worse before they get better. But the idea of some fucking 80 year old liches in Congress being like, "I don't like the tocks ticking around like that." And then like, it's like, incredibly popular. I think about half of Americans have a TikTok account. Like, telling half of Americans they can't do a thing sounds like a way to get people really mad. And I know I get really excited by the idea of like.... They have their bipartisan tyranny, and there's this idea that maybe one day we'll get over this fucking culture war and we can fight back in the class war that is waged against us. And like, if TikTok is the thing that brings it, I'm fear for it. I'm too old for TikTok. I have an account. I don't know how to use it. I've never uploaded a video. TikTok doesn't need me. But like, whatever anyway. But actually, I'm kind of curious, not having a child, Me--I'm the one without a child--Brooke, do you have thoughts on this no social media for the kids thing? Like am I...am I totally off base? Is it just protecting.... Like, I don't know. What's up?  **Brooke ** 49:28 I mean I get where they're coming from with it, and all the research that's shown how negative social media is for--I mean, they've done particular studies for kids and how it affects them--but turns out it's actually bad for all human beings, the way social media has come for us and the atmosphere is it creates. So, I get where they're coming from with it. As a very involved parent, you know, my solution is always to pay attention to and engage with your children, which is not a reasonable thing for all people to have as much engagement as it would take really to have healthy social media interactions. But then, you know, the anarchist side of me says, "No, you don't get to ban things ever." **Margaret ** 50:18 Well and also like, I don't know, a lot of people are rumbling about how TikTok is why a new generation of people supports Palestine and doesn't buy into the myths about the Zionist project being a thing that represents all Jews, for example, right? And then anti-capitalism is spreading and being pro capitalism is 100% bipartisan for the ghouls who feed off of the youth and somehow live too long. This is the most ageist shit I'm ever going to say. Some people are capable of performing their jobs well into their later years and gain wisdom. The people who run this country are nightmare men.  **Brooke ** 51:00 I feel like it's, you know, the same kind of things they've said about all new technologies that have come out over the last,, you know, whatever, 30 years. **Margaret ** 51:09 And like the only person who said this stuff, and was right, was a little man who had some bad strategic and ethical ideas, but wrote that "industrial society and its future have been a disaster for the human race." At least be consistent. **Inmn ** 51:31 I was researching this for another episode once, and I didn't end up talking about it because it was hard to learn too much about, but some of the lawmakers have specifically cited youth information spreading about Palestine as a reason for the TikTok ban. It's like a specifically listed reason from lawmakers. And the other thing about the Kids Online Safety, whatever it's called, is it's heralded as a way to protect children from pornography and from the proliferation of child pornography, which is the thing that lawmakers say all the time, and pretty much all these human rights organizations who are, you know, much more aptly trying to protect children from shit are like, "This is most asinine bullshit we've ever heard this. This bill is utterly absurd." And it has other implications, which are that it's trying to herald in this idea that you could no longer be like anonymous on the internet, and that the government has a lot more to...has a lot more agency to track your goings on on the internet. So it would.... It's like the bill would require you to essentially show a driver's license in order to engage with a lot of things on the internet, which I think is just trying to...I think it's capitalists' attempt to really make a thing like the internet something that is like more of a interacting with the government process and less a whatever the internet is, you know.  **Margaret ** 53:24 That makes sense to me. and yeah,  **Inmn ** 53:26 And it kind of falls in line with the our futuristic hellscape of like the "One app," for example. Like, you gotta scan your fucking fingerprint to log into Instagram or do anything on the internet. **Margaret ** 53:43 It's funny because sometimes they use a VPN just as a basic practice and sometimes I use a VPN that's set in Europe. And when you browse the internet as a European, every site you go to is like, "Hey, do you want us to track you?" And you're like, "No." And it's like, "Okay, fine." Because the EU has some good internet laws, you know? About restricting the tyranny part of it instead of the like.... Whatever. Okay, I'm gonna do my vaguely positive news at the end. Y'all ready? **Inmn ** 54:18 Yeah, what's good?  **Margaret ** 54:21 People are sleeping more than average than before. **Inmn ** 54:25 Yay. I'm not. But good for them. **Margaret ** 54:28 25 minutes more on average for the same people--not like the same individuals, right. Because how often you sleep is dependent on how old you are and also very heavily dependent about whether you have children. But people are sleeping about 25 minutes more on average than they were in 2002. And the best guess is that it started picking up a lot recently because of remote work and a lower percentage of people commuting. The biggest cool thing, the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, has banned non-compete agreements. 30 million people have been freed from non-compete clauses. **Brooke ** 55:07 Oh, nice. **Margaret ** 55:11 The EPA is banning most use of methyl chloride, which is a paint stripper that has killed like 88 people or something in the past couple of years and it's just bad. The EPA is actually, for the first time in a while, starting to get like...they're trying to stop forever chemicals. And there's like some shit that they're actually trying to do, right? They also--do you want to guess when asbestos was finally banned in the United States? **Margaret ** 55:39 It was late. It was like the 90s. **Inmn ** 55:41 Was it last week? **Margaret ** 55:45 March 2024.  **Brooke ** 55:47 Oh, shit. **Inmn ** 55:50 I was right, sort of. **Margaret ** 55:52 Yeah, Inmn was closest. There's about six types of asbestos and one of them had been sort of.... Enough people, enough industries had been like, "But we want to use it." And so for the past 33 years, this particular type, people have been trying to ban. Because the 90s is an accurate assessment of when I think most of the others got--I don't know, I'm making that part of it up--all I know is that for 33 years, they've been trying to ban this fucking asbestos and they finally succeeded in March of this year. Also, the FDA did an emergency approval of pre-exposure prophylaxis for COVID called Pemivibart, which is a dumb name because it rhymes with farts. And nothing should rhyme with fart if it's a drug. And it is for the immunocompromised. So you would take this before, you know, if you're going into a situation where you're worried about getting COVID. And it's an emergency approval like the original vaccines were so it's not through all of testing, but it's important enough that they feel like it's safe enough. Also, recently passed phase three trials is a vaccine to pretend prevent UTIs, or urinary tract infections, which is the kind of thing that I never would have occurred to me you could run it against because it's usually, I believe, bacterial infections. But it's a really common problem. And that's cool if we can fucking solve it. **Brooke ** 57:22 And some people are super prone to them just based on, you know, bodily health or genetics or whatever. Like it's a thing. They have ongoing, chronic UTI kind of thing. So fuck yeah. **Margaret ** 57:37 It's kind of like when they finally got an HPV vaccine through and it was just like, oh my god, this is actually pretty fucking game changing, you know? I wish they would give it to fucking assigned male people. But yeah. **Brooke ** 57:47 And then conservative Christian types that were like, "Oh, we don't think that our children should have to have this vaccine."  **Inmn ** 57:54 Any kind of person can get the HPV vaccine. **Margaret ** 57:57 Oh, interesting. Good to know. **Inmn ** 58:00 Yeah, it's a different vaccine, I think. But anybodied person can get it.  **Margaret ** 58:07 That's good to know. And hopefully, next time, we'll have different news about King Charles III and cancer. But who knows? But that's This Month in the Apocalypse, which you have now listened to, or participated in if you are named Brooke or Inmn or Margaret. Unless your named Brooke, Inmn, or Margaret and you're not on the podcast, in which case you didn't participate in it. You just heard it. And then probably have a different kind of parasocial relationship with us if you share our names, especially if you're Inmn. Like, there's not a ton of you. And like, Inmn's pretty cool. So do you have like a different.... Please write in, Inmn's in the audience. Pretend to be our Inmn and we'll read a prepared script from you next time as if you're our Inmn. This is not true. I'm lying.  **Margaret ** 59:08 But what I'm not lying about is that if you want to support this podcast, you can do so by supporting our publisher, which is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And you can do that by going to patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And if you do, we put up zine and podcasts. We do a lot of fucking stuff. We are your source for all of your anarchy culture. And another way you can support us this week of all weeks, if you are listening to this during May Day week, like the first week of May in 2024. Although if you listen to it in a different May Day week. It'll probably be true again. We are doing a 50% sale off of everything on our website. And that includes stuff that's really expensive, like the hardcover of Penumbra City, which is a $50 book, but now it's only $25 book. And you use the code MAYDAY24 at checkout and get 50% off because we fucking love May Day and we care more about our stuff getting out there than anything else about it. And if you support us on Patreon, we might even shout you out like we're going to shout out allium and Amber, Ephemoral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eric, Buck ,Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S. J., Paige. Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, King Charles III--What?! And Hoss the Dog.  Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Colin and Brooke talk about flooding, water damage, and how to avoid having your home damaged by those things. Guest Info Colin (he/him) is a carpenter, industrial electrician, and backpacker. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Colin on Flood Plains and Water Damage **Brooke ** 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. And today our friend Colin is joining us again, this time to talk about flooding and dealing with water damage. But first we'd like to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle from one of the other podcasts on the network. Doo doo jingo here! **Brooke ** 01:40 And we're back. Colin, thank you for joining us again today. And this time to talk about dealing with floods and water damage. Would you remind your pronouns, where you hail from if you want, and a bit about your background? **Colin ** 01:52 Yeah, my name is Colin, he him. I'm from Pittsburgh. And I've been a contractor sort of on and off for the last about 20 years, as well as working in the power plants and industrial electricity, and sort of in and around industry for about the second half of my life. And, yeah, it's, I'm glad to talk about floods, because it's one of those things we're seeing more and more. And unfortunately, it's probably going to happen to pretty much everybody who's listening to this podcast at some point in their life in one form or another. **Brooke ** 02:27 Yeah. And we've talked about flooding on the podcast before. I don't know that we've ever done a whole episode on it by any means. But it has definitely come up as we've talked about news and other major events. And you and I even talked about it when we did our first episode, a little bit. So I think it's—itll be good to dig into, you know, a nice reminder of what to do and not to do in a flood. And then also, I don't think we've ever talked much about flood recovery. So I'm excited to learn and teach more about that today. I wanted to share one of my own stories about flooding, if you don't mind me kicking off with that before we get into all the do's and don'ts and how tos. **Colin ** 03:12 Yeah go for it. **Brooke ** 03:13 Okay, cool. **Colin ** 03:14 Everybody's got one of those stories. **Brooke ** 03:16 Seems like it. Well, when I was growing up in the 90s, there was a major flooding event where I live. My hometown. It was built around a river, which of course is true of most older cities, right, because access to fresh water is critical for survival. And then there are also a lot of creeks that run through my town and feed into the river. And I live in the Pacific Northwest and it rains a whole lot here. So we're kind of accustomed to having occasional sudden and heavy downpours and the possibility of some rainwater pooling or briefly flooding. It's not uncommon. But this particular event when I was a teenager was something else. It was a really complicated set of weather events that led to it. But the important part is that, so the creeks that are all over town are overflowing. And then the river, it doubled its level on the first day of the heavy rains. And then within the next two days had crashed at its banks, and then for three days after that remained at flood levels. So the city's downtown area, for instance, it's fairly flat, it's right along the river, and most of the homes there have basements. So in addition to streets flooding, the basements flooded, filled with water. There were houses that got washed off their foundations, of course cars got washed away. And then even in other parts of town where there wasn't, you know they were more on the hills or what have you, there was so much water in the ground that it caused foundational issues to a lot of houses because the pressure of the water pushing on home foundations are running around it. And there had been an ice event right before the rain started that had caused his damage to a lot of pipes. So there were pipes that were bursting and breaking because they'd been weakened or already had broken because of the ice storm. And it led to all this flooding. And it's interesting as I've grown up in the town and come back to it as adult, that the damage of this event, the way it's imprinted itself on the psyche of the city, even my mom, when she comes back to visit will drive around, she'll go, oh, you know, such and such creek looks a little high today. You know, this creek is, you know, she always looks around at all the creeks to see where the waters levels are kind of this caution about how high is the water. Like, are we in danger of having some kind of event again. And anyone that lived here, you know, had or knew someone that had some kind of really severe damage or loss because of that flood. So that's really imprinted into my psyche because, of course, I was still a young person at the time this happened. And it's really impactful to me. So when we talk about flooding, it's like, oh, yeah, that was one of the major traumatic events of my youth, at least collectively in my society or my, you know, my town. **Colin ** 06:13 Yeah, that's actually a really common situation you describe, of having an ice event or cold weather and then a warm front comes through, drops several inches of rain onto frozen ground, there's nowhere for it to go, and it just goes straight into rivers. Like you're seeing that more and more and that's actually exactly what I was gonna open with is that, with climate change, even if you're not living in someplace like Charleston, or Miami, or one of the other low lying areas that everybody knows is at risk for flooding either from rising ocean levels or because you're in a major floodplain. Just having these wild swings in temperature and rainfall makes flooding a much bigger issue. It's like living in Pittsburgh, it seems like we don't get mild old rains anymore, we either get four inches right now, or nothing. So it's not the, like, nice, gentle soaking rains that I remember from being a kid, it's like everything comes in a burst. And when that happens, dry ground does not soak up water nearly as well as slightly damp ground. So dropping lots of rain onto parched ground, you end up with lots of run off, and even though it's very, very dry, you end up with massive flooding. **Brooke ** 07:35 Yeah, one of our cohosts and one of the collective members was—we were talking about it and she was describing, like, if you go to water your garden and you haven't watered your garden in a while, and like the first water that you put on, it kind of rolls off. It takes it a minute to actually, like, settle and sink in, and then it's easier to water the ground. And it's the same kind of thing with these flooding events which I, you know, had never thought about but can picture in my mind how that, oh yeah, how that happens, how that works. So it's, you know, we're at risk of flooding for so many different reasons than ever we were before because of super dryness or, you know, I feel like we've seen more atmospheric rivers in the news as well. Maybe I'm just paying more attention, but that seems to becoming more common too. **Colin ** 08:26 Yeah, and with the big events, like, there is a definite limit on how much you can really do to prepare yourself short of just moving to someplace where these things don't happen, you know. Somebody told me, water always wins. **Brooke ** 08:44 Ah! **Colin ** 08:45 You're not going to beat it. It's heavy, it's powerful, and if it wants to come into your house, you're gonna have a really hard time stopping it. **Brooke ** 08:56 Okay. **Colin ** 08:57 You know, you can fight back against the inch or two, but if nine feet of water comes knocking at your front door, you're not gonna win. **Brooke ** 09:06 Sure, but surely there are some things that we could do that would, you know, maybe help prevent the smaller amounts of water or help make it less bad, yeah? **Colin ** 09:16 Oh, yeah, definitely. And especially if you're in one of the areas like sounds like you are, or like I am in Pittsburgh, where there's enough terrain that I'm not worried about a flood filling up the valley nine feet deep, because if that happens, you know, we have bigger problems. The issue is more, you know, an inch or two of water flowing along the surface running down the street, coming across the yard and down to the basement steps. Like that kind of stuff you can defend against, and it's really not that hard to do. But it takes a lot of preparation and, particularly if you're in an area where this has simply never happened before, it's very easy for that to catch everyone off guard. Sounds like that's the situation with the floods you described was this was what used to be a what they call, you know, a 100 year storm. **Brooke ** 10:07 Uh huh, uh huh! **Colin ** 10:09 Now the 100 year storms are happening every six months or so. **Brooke ** 10:13 Yeah, well, we haven't, you know, had another one quite like that since the 90s. But also, I know that a lot of, you know, houses and whatnot are much better setup for it, you know. For instance, the downtown houses that got basements flooded so badly, a lot of them—I want to say all of them, but that might not be true—had sump pumps installed after that. And, you know, I would hope that many of those houses have done a good job of maintaining those pumps. Which, you know, I think probably wouldn't prevent the kind of flooding from the storm that we had back in the 90s, but would certainly help, you know, mitigate a smaller storm or recover from it more quickly. Whereas they didn't have them before that that wasn't a common thing. **Colin ** 11:04 Right, and it doesn't really take very much water in a basement to cause major problems. You don't need three feet of standing water in your basement to ruin your day. Just an inch or two is enough to really mess things up, especially if it happens to an entire town and everyone is dealing with it at the same time. The disaster recovery services that're around to help out when that happens to one or two people can't handle it when it's suddenly 5000 people that all have the exact same problem. There's just not the capacity and you're going to be more or less on your own to at least get through, you know, a few days to a week before they can get around to helping you out. Again, with the idea of triage, like just trying to buy yourself a little bit of time before all the services come back online. **Brooke ** 11:53 My former husband worked for drain plumbing company that went around and did a lot of those installations of sump pumps and it was, like, a couple of years he worked for them and that was basically what he did. And it took, yeah, that long to get them installed in that many houses. It was a long—and that wasn't even just the recovery from the flood, but that was helping, you know, prevent it with things in the in the future. But yeah, a very long time. For sure. **Colin ** 12:28 Yeah, so just to kind of dive right into it. **Brooke ** 12:30 Yes please! **Colin ** 12:31 The first step in trying to prepare yourself a little bit better than you are is to just walk around the house and take a quick assessment of sort of where and how water can get in. Four big ones: the obvious one is rain. Things like, make sure your roof is intact, make sure your gutters work. **Brooke ** 12:55 Windows? Doors? **Colin ** 12:55 Windows, doors, but they're usually fine. Water hits those and runs off, and if water is trying to come in your door, you're already—it's already too late. Then surface water this is things like grading around the house to make sure that the water doesn't get too close, and any water that does get close goes away. After that is below grade water, so this is, you know, what you're talking about, where the ground was so saturated the pressure of the water in the ground pushing against foundations damaged the foundations. And then you also mentioned the last one which is one that gets overlooked which is burst pipes. You have water in your house all the time, it's just normally it stays inside the pipes where it belongs, until those pipes freeze, and then it ends up places that you really don't want it. **Brooke ** 13:44 Yeah. Can the pipes break from flooding, like that water pressure that damaged foundations, I imagine that could also damage then piping—pipe systems. **Colin ** 13:59 Yes. When the ground gets soft and has more flexibility in it—usually not just the water in the ground itself, but because the ground is softer—if you live in an area that has lots of hills, you end up with a higher risk of landslides and things shifting and that will definitely break water mains. **Brooke ** 14:17 Okay. **Colin ** 14:17 That happens a lot in California. **Brooke ** 14:20 Okay. **Colin ** 14:20 Where you get—you get heavy rain combined with landslide and now you have additional, either just people not having water because the mains are broken, or you have the mains flooding a section of a town because there's spewing water out. **Brooke ** 14:35 Yeah, it's not just the dirt that moved, it's all the shit that's in the dirt, like the pipes! [Laughing] **Colin ** 14:43 And that's another thing complicating factor with floods is that usually flooding is not a disaster that happens by itself. It comes with loss of electricity, loss of water, loss of gas, because all these things are buried in the ground. **Brooke ** 14:58 Yeah. Okay, now, you must and floods and we have said this several times on this podcast and we'll say it many more: don't go into the water. If it's flooding, stay out of the floodwater. **Brooke ** 15:09 I'm glad to hear that your puppy is joining us again on this episode. **Colin ** 15:09 Yes, that was my very first point before we even got into talking about any of the, you know, how to deal with things like rain surface water is, like I said before, you know, when you're in a disaster, there's always a way that you can make it worse. So don't don't get sick and don't get hurt. Floodwater is full of mud, trash, sewage. It's usually cloudy and turbid, so you can't see what's down there. The risk of you stepping on something or kicking something is really high. So just don't go into it if you don't have to. And if you have to wear rubber gloves, wear boots, try to keep it off your skin as much as you possibly can. Most people probably have some kind of rubber boots in their home, I would hope. If you don't, they're cheap, I'd recommend keeping a pair around. The one thing that people probably don't think about is rubber gloves—even dishwashing gloves are fine for keeping the water away from your skin, but they're not very sturdy. So if you're doing work in floodwater, put on rubber gloves, and then put on some kind of regular work glove overtop of that to protect the rubber, and make sure that barrier stays intact. Just the inexpensive knit work gloves from like Harbor Freight or something like that, that are $1 a piece. It's all you need. All you're trying to do is keep that robber from getting cut by sharp things in the water when you're handling them. [Dog barking] **Colin ** 16:40 Yes. There's somebody outside that doesn't belong there, clearly. It's probably the mailman **Brooke ** 16:46 That's all right. We are dog friendly on this podcast. **Colin ** 16:51 Okay, so, rain is probably the easiest one to keep out of the house. It's the one that everybody is aware is a problem because you see on a fairly regular basis. And for the most part, it's not that hard. You know, it's, make sure that there's no holes in your roof, make sure your gutters actually drain the way they're supposed to and don't get clogged. And the one part that people occasionally overlook is: make sure that your downspouts discharge far enough away from the house. You're not pumping water back in against the foundation. **Brooke ** 17:23 Yes, **Colin ** 17:25 I work in houses all the time, I see the downspout that comes straight down off the roof and dumps on to the ground six inches away from the wall. And just like, that's just going to end up straight in the basement. So. **Colin ** 17:37 Yeah. **Colin ** 17:38 This is something—a lot of the things I'm gonna talk about, you really kind of need to be the homeowner to do, but moving downspout discharge further away from the walls, even if you're gonna rental, that's something you can do. Get a piece of plastic pipe, anything to just move it as far from the house as you possibly can. **Brooke ** 17:56 Yeah. That's a cheap, that's a cheap and fairly quick fix that can make a world of difference. And even if you don't have a basement, just the water pouring into the foundation at one consistent spot over and over and over again can, you know, damage that part of it and cause a much bigger problem. **Colin ** 18:17 And the biggest one, if you are the homeowner, is take a look at the grading around your house. This is something that, at least in the area that I am, I would say 75–90% of the houses that I see have inadequate drainage. You're supposed to have ideally 10 inches of fall in the first 10 feet away from the house. Six inches is the bare minimum, but 10 is a lot better. In most cases I see no fall at all, or even the yard slipping back in towards the house. When you have that means that any water that lands in the yard is gonna try to come into the house. It doesn't take a whole lot of elevation change to really dry out a basement. **Brooke ** 19:08 So those who aren't construction nerds like the two of us, when when Colin's talking about grading here he's talking about the incline or decline, the direction that the ground is going towards the house, away from the house. That's what "grading" means. Just in case somebody needs that. **Colin ** 19:24 Yes, you are 100% correct. This is a thing that is—it's labor intensive, but it's actually fairly cheap. I don't know what dirt costs on average across the country, but where I am it's around $50 per ton for just—you don't need topsoil, it doesn't need to be good quality. It just needs to be dirt, and does not require any skill at all. If you can wield a shovel, you can fix the grading around your house. **Brooke ** 19:58 How would they check the grading, Colin? **Colin ** 19:59 For that you need a level—it can tell you, you know, when something is level. If you own a cell phone, you already have one, because cell phones have accelerometers in them that can tell the phone which position it's in. That's how it knows how to change your screen from one orientation to the other when you move the phone. So there—are there are apps that are just a visualization of a physical bubble level. All it's doing is telling you, you know, how tilted is the phone? They're not the most accurate thing in the world, but for grading dirt, we're not going for high precision, you just need to know more or less where level is. **Brooke ** 20:37 Yeah, okay. All right. So you mentioned like buying dirt. So if people have a spot in the yard that's higher than the where the foundation is, are you—are you saying they should put dirt between the high spot in the house to make it level? Or go the other way? Are there other ways to solve it? Sorry to get so pedantic. **Colin ** 20:58 No, no, it's a very good question. And that's why the rule of like, you know, 10 inches in the first 10 feet or 6 inches in the first 10 feet, if you can't manage that, is a rule of thumb. But you kind of have to look at your yard. And unless you have a perfectly flat manicured yard, you've got humps here and there and some parts are higher than the other. Having one or two high spots near the house, not really a big deal, as long as the water is generally going to go away from the house. And this is one of those things that you kind of just have to look at it and eyeball where downhill is. If nothing else, you know, you can take a five gallon bucket of water, dump it on the ground, and see where it goes. If it heads towards the house, hat's bad. If it heads parallel to the house and kind of away from the house, that's probably fine. **Brooke ** 21:53 Yeah. Okay, so solution might be taking away dirt. You might buy dirt to regrade, or you might need to dig out some dirt and haul it some place. **Colin ** 22:03 You can have a very, you know, lumpy yard, you can move dirt around. Really what you want is just to pay attention to that 10 feet immediately around the house. And make sure that's as high as you can possibly get it. If you can't get it high enough, there are other options like French drains and building drainage swales and berms. Those get more complicated. They're still well within the capability of the average homeowner, but you kind of need to see a demonstration of it. So that's what YouTube is for. **Brooke ** 22:36 Got it. Okay, sorry to spend so much time on that. **Colin ** 22:38 Those are fantastic questions. I can go on and on about drainage swales for the rest of the hour, but— **Brooke ** 22:43 [Laughing] Yeah, how about we not. Now tell me about some other ways to keep the water out. **Colin ** 22:52 Okay, so the one that everybody knows about and has seen and news and movies are sandbags. And they're okay in some situations. But the problem with them is that sandbags leak. **Brooke ** 23:09 Yeah. **Colin ** 23:10 So no matter how good your sandbag wall is, it's not going to stop the water, it's just going to slow it down. And once the water is on the wrong side of your wall, now you have to get it back out. And that means using a pump of some kind. And as we've already said, if you're in a flooding situation, there's a good chance that you're going to lose power. So relying on any kind of active pump to keep your house and your basement dry is not ideal. So your comment about people having sump pumps in their basement, that's fantastic for average storms and normal amounts of rainfall where you just have a trickle of water coming into the basement and nothing is really going that wrong. But when you get to the point where, you have, water sheeting across the ground several inches deep, lots of water coming into the house, most sump pumps aren't going to be able to keep up with that in the first place. And even if they are, the risk of you losing power at some point and now you have water in the basement is too high. So that's why I'd normally recommend, if you can do it, do it with grading, do it with dirt. Keep the water from ever getting close enough to the house to be a problem. Don't rely on being able to block it with things like sandbags. **Brooke ** 24:30 Yeah, okay. That makes a lot of sense. So should people not use sandbags or just...? **Colin ** 24:37 Oh, no, they're fantastic when you have, you know, things like hurricanes where you have a lot of water coming in a hurry, and you're just trying to keep the entire house from going underwater. Or if you have an area where you have water sheeting across the yard towards the house and overall your drainage is fine, ou just need to deflect the a little bit. So you can build temporary wall of sandbags just to kind of get the water pointed in a better direction. Relying on them to actually totally barricade the house is not going to work. **Brooke ** 25:12 Make sense? So this there's some limitations. **Colin ** 25:14 Yeah, the last one that almost nobody thinks about is what's called backflow prevention. And this refers to the sewer line that, ideally, you want your poo to go into the sewer and away from the house and not come back. **Brooke ** 25:34 Always. **Colin ** 25:35 When the poop comes back, you're gonna have a bad day. **Brooke ** 25:40 I want that on a sweatshirt now. Whoever's listening, somebody make us a sweatshirt design—a tshirt or something with that. I want that. When the poo comes back, you're gonna have a bad day. Okay. **Colin ** 25:54 This is something that, if you live in an area, if you're in a floodplain, if you have a high water table, where there's a risk that the sewer system is going to flood at the same time as the ground floods, look into this. It's a very complicated topic, and I am definitely not qualified to talk about it. This is the thing that, you know, you need a PhD to understand the exact, you know, flow of everything. The poo flow It's very complicated. It's not that expensive, but beyond what a homeowner can do by themselves. **Brooke ** 26:31 Do homeschool you have some kind of backflow prevention, or is that not common? **Colin ** 26:35 It depends. If your house is older than I'm gonna say 50 years old, it's very, very unlikely that you have it if you haven't installed it yourself. In Pittsburgh where I am, we have what's called a combined flow sewer system. Which means the sanitary sewer from your toilet and the storm sewer from the drains in the street all go into the same set of pipes. **Brooke ** 27:04 Okay, yes, so do mine. **Colin ** 27:05 Yeah, it's, again, not uncommon in older systems. But it means that every time you get heavy rainfall, all that water has to go into the sewers, and it overloads them. So in Pittsburgh, every time we get more than about a half inch of rain, we just end up with sewage flowing straight into the rivers and they put out an alert, you know, don't go into the rivers for a couple days until everything has a chance to clear out. But when you do that, it also means that the risk that you're going to overflow the sewer and cause backflow into houses that are lower down on the sewer system goes up. So if you happen to be one of those houses, look into getting a backflow valve installed on the sewer where it leaves the house so that the poo stays on the correct side. **Colin ** 27:52 So once the water gets in, the first thing to know is you're probably not going to get it back out by hand. I have occasionally seen advertisements for the little tiny, like, siphon hand pumps at Home Depot, the other big box stores, advertising: you can use this to pump out your basement. No. Just no. **Brooke ** 27:52 Yeah, geez louise. The shit we do to our rivers. [Laughing] Alright, so keeping the water out, check. We've got some methods for that. Okay, what about after the water gets in. **Brooke ** 28:29 Why not? **Colin ** 28:31 Water weighs—I'm gonna say 64 pounds per cubic foot. **Brooke ** 28:37 7 pounds a gallon, roughly. **Colin ** 28:37 Yeah, 7 pounds a gallon. And if you have even a small house, say like 20 by 30, and you got a foot of water in your basement, that's something like 19 tons of water— **Brooke ** 28:38 Oh my gosh, wow. **Colin ** 28:50 —that you have to lift up 6 or 8 feet to get it high enough that it's above ground, and then move it out of the house. **Brooke ** 29:03 Okay. **Colin ** 29:04 You're not doing that by hand. There are—there are really big pumps that are designed for places where there's no power and you have to get water out of mines and things like that. They work very well. They're also I want to say between $5,000 and $10,000. **Brooke ** 29:20 Oh my gosh. **Colin ** 29:21 So you're... **Colin ** 29:24 Not practical. So sump pumps: fantastic as long as you have electricity, but if you don't have electricity, you're gonna be in trouble. You're probably going to have to wait until the water level goes down and it's able to drain back out on its own. So you're not gonna be cleaning up 3 feet of water in the basement. You're going to be dealing with the last inch or two that doesn't make it over to the drains and out of the house on its own. So for that your two best weapons are honestly a good old fashioned floor squeegee, and a wet/dry vacuum with what's called a dust separator. It looks kind of like a 5 gallon bucket with a cone on top of it. And it works by pulling the air into the cone and spinning it like a cyclone. So all the water gets flung to the outside, the air goes up the center and the water falls down into the bucket. The advantage of those is you can work kind of like a bucket brigade, because it's just a lid that goes on top of a five gallon bucket and that way your shop vac never fills up. **Brooke ** 29:24 Not practical. **Brooke ** 30:40 Oh! I was just picturing using my shop vac for this because I know it can do water. And then it's like, oh yeah, and then we're talking about the weight of water just now. I have to stop, unclick the lid, you know, take it out or hand it out or whatever, wait for them to go dump it, bring it back in, put the lid back on. So, but man, something that attaches to a 5 gallon bucket which is like such a common thing to have around. That's awesome. **Colin ** 31:02 The first time I saw one of those it was revelation. I was like, oh my god, I need one of these. And then, yeah, it means you have, you know, one person vacuuming, filling buckets, and the other person running them outside and dumping them. It dramatically speeds up the process. And they're—I wanna say they're between $20 and $50 depending on where you get them and what the exact design is. You don't need anything super high quality, all you need is a way to separate the water and the air so that you can get the water back out of the house as quickly as possible. And then the floors for squeegee can move a lot of water in a hurry, assuming you have a working for drain. And also really good for getting mud moved around because it kind of scrapes the floor as it goes. Again, that's the thing that is not very expensive. **Brooke ** 31:51 Yeah. Cool. I was just just—for price purposes, I just quickly looked on like Amazon for—and it looks like the— no sorry, not the squeegees, but the cyclone dust thing is maybe starting about 50 bucks and going up from there. **Colin ** 32:06 Okay, they've gone up a little bit since I bought mine. **Brooke ** 32:07 Yeah. **Colin ** 32:08 It was a few years ago. **Brooke ** 32:09 Yeah, if you're doing some community emergency preparedness, and if you work with friends or whatever to collect and have some of these tools—I'm trying to do more of that in my own life so that we don't all own every single tool you might need. Might be a good one to go in on together and, you know, somebody stores or keeps track of it or whatever. **Colin ** 32:30 Yeah, definitely. And a lot of the preparation for construction-related disasters is tool and equipment heavy. And there's no reason for everybody in your social circle to have duplicates of all the tools, because you're also going to need lots of hands helping out. So as long as one person has the tool that you need, everybody has access to it. **Brooke ** 32:56 Okay, awesome. I'm just adding one of those to my wish list now to look at some more later. Okay, so that's some of the ways we get the water out of that. And I assume that, like, if you're in a basement, and you've got stuff in your basement, you probably want to like get your shit out of the basement and then start attacking the water, right? Like get your belongings to dry ground before you do that, or, you tell me. **Colin ** 33:24 Um. It depends on sort of, you know, do you have a place to put all of your belongings or are you going to need to move them out into the front yard once the rain stops? So it's kind of a judgment call as to whether you can deal with water first or get your belongings out of the house first. It's whatever you have time and space and energy to do. As long as you are making progress on one of the fronts, it's all going to have to happen at some point in the next, you know, 24 to 48 hours. The exact order that things happen doesn't matter all that much. **Brooke ** 34:03 Nobody's sleeping for a little while after the disaster, and that's okay. **Colin ** 34:06 Yes. **Brooke ** 34:06 I mean, it sucks, but. **Colin ** 34:10 So yeah, that is the next point is dealing with all your belongings. And step one is just separate the wet and dry things. Anything that has managed to avoid the water, get it out of the basement and get it out of that damp room as fast as you possibly can. Because once things get wet, your next big issue is going to be mold. Even if you have things sitting in the basement that didn't get wet with the floodwater, they're now in a damp space that has been contaminated with all sorts of wonderful biological material for mold to grow in, and basements tend not to be the best ventilated places in the house. **Brooke ** 34:53 Yeah. **Colin ** 34:54 And your mold spores are everywhere all the time. You can't avoid them. All you can do is try to make a environment that mold does not like to grow in. And once the house has been flooded, mold becomes very, very, very happy. **Brooke ** 35:09 Okay. Yeah, a lot of moisture. **Colin ** 35:12 So get everything out of the basement, dry things can go upstairs, wet things need to be moved someplace away from the dry things so that they don't contaminate those as well. So if it's—ifyou have things that are totally soaked, furniture, carpet, things like that, they're not going to get any worse by just chucking them into the front yard. So you can put down a tarp to keep them out of the mud. But once they've been soaked, the damage has already been done, just get them out of the house, that's easier. Throw a tarp over it to, you know, keep the worst of the weather off. But your big concern is getting the space emptied out. And also, mold does not like UV radiation, and we have a great source of radiation outside in the form of the sun. **Brooke ** 36:04 Hey! **Colin ** 36:04 So just parking things out in bright light is going to help slow down that mold. **Brooke ** 36:08 Yeah. And so even if you've got an apartment or what have you, you know, if you can put things out on a porch. If you've got things that are really soaked, you could take them into the bathroom and you can put things in the in the tub or the shower. And, just as the initial, like, letting some of that water run off, while you then go deal with other issues, or sending them in a sink—not for long term but, like, short term places to stick things if it's still raining outside and you've got wet stuff. **Colin ** 36:38 Yeah, put them someplace where they can drain and start to dry out a little bit. Your most important thing is keep the airflow going. Because if you've got good airflow, that's going to slow down the growth of mold. **Brooke ** 36:52 And even cold air flow, right? Like— **Colin ** 36:54 Even cold air flow. **Brooke ** 36:55 —blowing a fan even if it's, yeah, okay. **Brooke ** 36:57 Okay, but what about if it was like brief flooding in your carpet—like this is not quite we're talking about, but if a pipe burst—a waterline burst in my basement and gets everything wet? I get that turned off and dried back out. **Colin ** 36:57 So once you have your belongings out, take a look at the walls and flooring. And pretty much anything that is wet and porous, like drywall or carpet pads., if it's wet and porous, it's probably trash. It's not in most cases worth salvaging carpet that has been totally saturated with floodwater because you're never going to get the mud and all the sewage back out of that carpet. Now you have your antique oriental rug, that can be salvaged. But just regular old wall to wall carpet and the padding behind it, it's going to be cheaper to replace that than it is to try to salvage it. **Colin ** 37:56 Yeah, that is salvageable. For that you don't need to trash it. I was thinking more along the lines of, you know, muddy, sewage filled water in your basement. But no, if you just have—if you have clean water on a carpet, as long as you can get it dried out before the mold starts, you'll be fine. **Brooke ** 38:13 Okay. **Colin ** 38:13 And again, this is where that shopvac and the dust separator really shine, because you can suck the water out of the carpet. And that means there's a whole lot less work for the fans and the dehumidifier to do to try to get that carpet dried back out before the mold starts. **Brooke ** 38:30 Okay. So the type of water matters a lot. Like if you're basement window, the seal breaks and you've got maybe your downspout water is going into the basement. That might be salvageable, again, if you don't have mold and stuff, right? **Colin ** 38:45 Right. If it's clean water and you can get it dried out, you're fine. But once it has been contaminated with groundwater, think long and hard about how important it is to salvage it. Because, again, once you have stuff like sewage and mud into the carpet and into the backing, the odds that you will develop mold problem later on if it gets wet again are significantly higher, because now you have all that food for the mold to grow on. **Brooke ** 39:14 Yeah, and then that mold of course, you know, ongoing health issues can be caused, you know, mold sucks. But yeah, it's not just that mold sucks and it's gross and smelly. It's like literally bad for you. **Colin ** 39:31 You're two best weapons, in addition to air and light, are honestly vinegar and borax. Both of which are available at pretty much any grocery store. They both work by the same mechanism but at opposite ends of the spectrum. Mold needs a certain pH to be able to grow. Believe it's between 4 and 8. But it can go as far as between like 3 and 9. And vinegar is just outside that range on the acidic end, and Borax is just outside it on the basic end. **Brooke ** 40:10 So I should pour vinegar on my carpet, **Brooke ** 40:12 Oh, okay. **Colin ** 40:12 You can do that. **Colin ** 40:13 Yeah, just use full strength vinegar, put it in a sprayer or, you know, slosh it around, you know, spread it out the squeegee. But if you— **Brooke ** 40:21 Full strength do you mean the normal, like 5%, white vinegar at the store? **Colin ** 40:25 5%, yeah. **Brooke ** 40:25 Okay, because you can buy, in case folks don't know this, 10%, 20%, 30% vinegar at department stores that works well as a weed killer. **Colin ** 40:35 Yeah, that's actually what I keep around for cleaning because it takes up less space, and if you have the 30% vinegar, you just dilute it with water to get it back down to 5%. And now you have— **Brooke ** 40:45 Just don't spill it on your skin. **Colin ** 40:47 Yes. **Brooke ** 40:48 I've done that. **Colin ** 40:49 Coming back to the safety issue. You do not—like, even regular strength vinegar, I've used for cleaning walls in a basement before and walked back into the room after I had a chance to off gas a little bit and walk right back out again because I couldn't breathe. Vinegar is pretty safe, but it's still an acid and your lungs don't like breathing it. So open the windows, wear gloves, keep it off your skin, and by all means keep it out of your eyes. Same is true for borax. As chemicals go, they're pretty safe, but you still don't want them in your eyes. Safety glasses, chemical goggles if you have them. Again, Harbor Freight, 2 bucks for a pair of inexpensive plastic goggles is all you need. **Brooke ** 41:39 Hopefully at this point, a lot of us have respirators, you know, post COVID and protests and whatever. You probably don't need to go that hard, but you can, right? **Colin ** 41:51 Correct. **Brooke ** 41:52 Yeah. **Colin ** 41:53 So it's just the full strength vinegar, the 5%, on anything that is going to take a long time to dry out or you don't have time to deal with. So if you have a pile of soggy bedding, and your washing machine doesn't work because you don't have power, just go ahead and dump vinegar all over that. Vinegar is fine for most fabrics. And as long as it's acidic, as long as the clothing is too acidic for mold to grow, it can sit there for a week and it'll be probably fine. **Brooke ** 42:26 So you could like, put them in your sink, stopper it, and pour some vinegar over the top of the bedding or the clothes or whatever it is that you need to soak. Do they need to be like, do they just need to be damp with the vinegar, or do they need to like sit in vinegar? **Colin ** 42:40 It depends on what you're trying to do. Vinegar will kill mold, but it takes a long time as chemical methods of killing mold goes. You figure, most people know, like, bleach will kill mold in a couple minutes. Full strength vinegar can take an hour or more depending on the surface. So if you're using it to disinfect a surface, it needs to stay on there for a long time. Usually with fabric if you just dunk it in vinegar and hang it up to dry, by the time the fabric is dry, the vinegar has been on there long enough that anything that was on there is now dead. So even if your clothes aren't clean, dunk it in vinegar, hang it up outside on a clothesline, let it dry, and the vinegar will keep any mold from developing in the time that it takes the clothing to dry. **Brooke ** 43:32 If bleach is so much faster and more effective, why not use bleach to clean the walls, clean the carpets, all of that kind of stuff. **Colin ** 43:42 You can do that. Bleach, as everybody knows, is a little more dangerous. Not good to get on your skin. Not good to breathe. And bleach bleaches things. So if you use chlorine bleach on your, you know, vintage clothing, you're going to be in the market for some new vintage clothing. **Brooke ** 44:05 Yeah, okay. **Colin ** 44:06 Vinegar is—if you read online, there are articles of clothing and fabric that you're not supposed to use vinegar on. But I can attest to the fact that you can get away with using it on pretty much anything, including—the friend of mine that I've mentioned, I think last time, that had the apartment fire was using vinegar to clean a lot of like vintage suede. And it wasn't happy about it, but it survived and it came through it. **Brooke ** 44:37 So you can use bleach, it just comes with more caveats and dangers and you're less likely to maybe screw something up if you're using vinegar as your agent. **Colin ** 44:47 Right. **Brooke ** 44:47 It sounds—that's what I'm hearing, is that accurate? **Colin ** 44:49 Bleach will definitely work. Vinegar is nice because almost everything, you can just dunk it in vinegar and let it dry and it's not going to do that much damage to it. I used it on furniture, leather clothing, silk, everything. Even things that you're like, oh this should be dry cleaned only. Eh, vinegar is generally okay. It's not gonna love it but it'll be fine. **Brooke ** 44:51 [Laughing] Gotcha. **Colin ** 44:52 Borax is, you know, you've probably seen it in your grandmother's basement as a laundry booster. Borax is a— **Brooke ** 45:27 White powder **Colin ** 45:28 Yeah, white powder, sodium metaborate, I think? It's a caustic alkaline salt. So it has the advantage of being persistent where vinegar is not. So once the vinegar dries out, it's gone. Which is nice because your clothes will not smell like vinegar forever, you know, after a week or two, the smell totally goes away. Borax, it's like table salt. Once it dries out, you're left with a white powder on everything. **Colin ** 46:00 Which is probably not what you want for all of your possessions because you don't want them covered and white powder. The advantage it has is that it does stay around. So if you are trying to get mold off of the walls and the joists in your basement, if you spray them with borax, once the water dries that powder is still going to be there and it's still going to prevent mold from growing. So the borax, once you put it down, will continue working until you clean it up. Yeah, so if you have a basement that has a major mold problem, just coat everything with borax, you can leave it on, there even when you put drywall and insulation everything back up, it's not going to hurt anything. **Brooke ** 46:00 Okay. **Brooke ** 46:42 Okay. You're wet clothing that's at risk of molding. Can you dust that with borax? Does that work? **Colin ** 46:47 You can. That would work just fine if you happen to have borax not vinegar. So the vinegar I like just because it doesn't leave a residue on things. You can use it on everything. So when you have a giant pile of belongings, of some clothing, some furniture, or some antiques, just hose everything down with vinegar and sort it out later. **Brooke ** 47:08 Yeah, I was imagining a circumstance where it's, you know, I can't get to the store, the store is out of things, and I have half a gallon of vinegar and half a jar of borax and, you know, Dollar Store tiny container of bleach and, you know, what can I use where and what can't I use where and how would I spread out what I have available? **Brooke ** 47:30 Why not? Sounds like fun! **Colin ** 47:30 You should not mix the vinegar and the bleach, that's the first thing. [Laughing] **Colin ** 47:35 For some definition of the word fun, yeah. It's exciting. In general, don't mix anything with bleach because bleach is a sodium hypochlorite I believe is the chemical? There's different versions of it. But anyway, it contains chlorine. And when that chlorine breaks three of the things that are holding it to the rest of the molecule, you now have chlorine gas in your house, and that makes it really hard to breathe, and it's a good way to put yourself in the hospital. So if you're going to use bleach, do not use anything else. Vinegar and borax, they can actually be mixed. If you do that, the downside is that because vinegar is acidic, and borax is alkaline, you pull the pH a little bit closer to the center and it's not going to be as effective against mold. But then when the vinegar disappears and evaporates, the borax will still be there to help prevent the mold from coming back. So there's no harm in mixing them. And a lot of websites that talk about mold cleanup will actually recommend it because the Borax is persistent and the vinegar will generally be enough to kill them all quickly and the borax keeps it from coming back. But for the purposes of just trying to inhibit low growth immediately after the flooding event, either one is fine. You don't need to mix them to get the best effect and you'll be able to cover more of your possessions if you're not using both products on everything. So vinegar on some, borax and others, there's no reason to hit them double strength. **Brooke ** 49:18 Right. Yeah, so I'm imagining, like, I might bleach spray the walls, dust some powdered borax on the carpet, soak the clothes and vinegar. Again, this is like, if I don't have enough of one thing or a couple things to do everything that needs to get done, you know, what benefits the most from each thing or how can I use each one individually most effectively. But yeah, very good, important thing about mixing chemicals. There's another one too I think ammonia and bleach you're not supposed to mix, it also has a bad chemical...? Yeah. **Colin ** 49:48 Ammonia and bleach does the same thing. It's still—the chlorine is the ones gonna get you. Chlorine gas is nasty nasty stuff. **Brooke ** 49:54 Seems like they use that at one point and like did bad things to people with it. **Colin ** 49:58 Yeah, yeah, we don't like chlorine gas. It's not fun. **Brooke ** 50:01 Yeah, I'm not a history person but boy, that sounds familiar. **Colin ** 50:04 Speaking of gases, one of the things that people may see, as far as mold abatement goes, is the use of ozone. **Colin ** 50:12 And I have used that. I actually have an ozone generator, and it does a fantastic job of getting rid of the, you know, the few mold spores that are in places where you can't get to them. But I will say, in general, for anybody listening to this, don't bother. **Brooke ** 50:12 Oh, uh huh. **Colin ** 50:30 Oh, okay. **Colin ** 50:30 The ozone generators that you can afford are not going to be big enough and powerful enough to take care of like an entire room. And ozone is maybe not quite as bad as chlorine gas, but it is still a nasty toxic gas. And it can cause both you and your possessions serious harm. The reason it works is because it has—it's O3, so it has an extra oxygen atom or molecule—attached the molecule. That makes it very, very active, and it tries to oxidize everything that it comes in contact with. Which if it's coming in contact with mold that you want to kill, that's fantastic. If it's oxidizing all of the plastics and all of your synthetic fabrics and turning them into, you know, various nasty compounds like formaldehyde, that's not so good. And I've read horror stories about people getting, you know, small ozone generators off Amazon and saying, well, you know, this is not powerful enough to get the levels up high enough in an hour, so I'll just let it run for three days. **Brooke ** 51:41 [Laughing] That's three days, that's not an hour. **Colin ** 51:45 Yeah, when you do that, it's sort of like the difference between baking something in the oven at 150 degrees for 8 hours versus searing a steak at 500 degrees for 5 minutes. They do very different things. And letting everything just kind of stew in ozone for a very long time is not a good idea. You do not want to do that. And I would just say steer clear of those. Leave that to the professionals. Save your money. Buy more vinegar and borax. **Brooke ** 52:19 Okay, that's good to know. And if you want to learn more about chemical combinations, I created a board game for children. That's totally an aside thing. Okay, I want to go back to one thing here and I'm sorry, I'm risking going long, but um, we talked about removing like walls and carpet and I sidetracked us and talking a lot about carpet. You mentioned briefly about, like, taking out what drywall material, right, if there's water damage. And with the carpet I had asked about like freshwater versus, you know, sewage water. Does the same thing go for removing walls? Like if I have a pipe burst and it's, you know, just fresh water that person got the walls wet. Can they be recovered? Or is that a situation where, sorry, it got wet, you pretty much got to take it out? Um, I don't know I'm asking. **Colin ** 53:12 It depends on how wet it got. If it's just a pipe that burst in the ceiling and it sprayed a little bit of water on the wall, that's probably fine. That's salvageable. If you have a pipe burst inside the wall and it saturated all the insulation and soak the drywall through, that needs to come out. Not because the water is necessarily going to damage the drywall, but now you have created a damp space with no airflow inside the wall. And if you can't get that opened up and dry it out, you're going to end up with mold. **Brooke ** 53:45 Can you dry out insulation? Like if you take out a piece of wet insulation and put a fan on it and dry it out, can you put it back in or does it get ruined? **Colin ** 53:56 With fiberglass insulation, you could do it but there's no reason to. **Brooke ** 54:02 Okay. **Colin ** 54:02 The cost of replacing the insulation is going to be less than probably the cost of trying to get it dried back out and salvageable. **Brooke ** 54:11 Okay. Okay. **Colin ** 54:13 And a lot of houses have insulation that has already been contaminated somewhat with mold over the years. Usually when insulation comes out of walls, it's not perfectly clean. It already has some mold and things in it just because temperature fluctuations, you know, that's why you have the insulation there is to help slow down the temperature changes. But that means that the insulation is constantly going up and down in temperature. It has a small amount of condensation in it. Over time, little bits of organic matter and mold start to grow on it. It's not a huge problem until it gets soaked and now it takes off. So basically once installation gets wet, it's trash. And along those lines with drywall, another thing that I've seen a lot in basements that have had some water damage is either the homeowner or the contractor that they paid to do the recovery was trying to be as... **Brooke ** 55:12 Cost efficient? **Colin ** 55:13 Cost efficient, yes, that's a good way of putting it, as possible. Fake cost efficiency. And they pull out the bare minimum of insulation and drywall, basically the only things that came in direct contact with water, and they put new drywall back up, and six months later you have a mold problem, because there was still moisture higher up in the wall that was not addressed. So once a wall gets wet, you want to remove the drywall to, I'm gonna say, a good foot or more above the waterline at minimum. If you want to take out the entire wall, that's probably overkill but it's not the worst idea. But, you know, minimum of a foot above the waterline. And then for any insulation in the wall, reach your arm or up inside the bay as far as you can and get out anything you can possibly reach. The more space and the more airflow you get inside that wall, the better off you're going to be in the long run. And coming back to the borax, if there's any doubt about whether or not you've gotten anything, hose some borax water up inside there, let that dry out, and now you have something that's going to inhibit mold growing in that space for the remainder of the life of the house. **Brooke ** 56:34 Okay, now I know this is going to be probably beyond the average homeowner's ability to to judge, but what about the framing, the studs, you know, the the wood that's in the walls that your your drywall is attached to and your insulation runs between? Any tips on being able to tell whether or not that needs to be replaced? Or is it just a, sorry, you got to call a contractor at that point to figure out if that needs to get redone. **Colin ** 57:04 It's probably going to be fine. I'm sure there are exceptions. But, you know, wood is used to being outside. And as long as it has a chance to dry back out after it's gotten wet, it'll be fine. If it's sitting in water for weeks or months, you may have an issue. Your biggest problem honestly, with wet wood, is that it attracts termites. So you don't want to have damp wood. But as long as it gets dried back out, again, not too much of an issue. **Brooke ** 57:37 Okay, that's really great. Okay, I feel like I am much better prepared to deal with flooding, hopefully make it happen, less things to look out for. And then definitely after it comes, knowing what I should do immediately and fairly quickly in that process. And that's awesome. I like learning things. Is there anything more you want to say about dealing with flooding and/or water damage that we haven't talked about? **Colin ** 58:10 Oh, the one thing I didn't didn't get to was the burst pipe. **Brooke ** 58:13 Sure. **Colin ** 58:13 So let's run through that real quickly. **Brooke ** 58:15 Okay. **Colin ** 58:15 This is something pretty much everybody's gonna experience at some point in their life. I don't know of anybody that has not had to deal with leaking pipe or burst pipe at some point, even if it's not during a disaster. It's just like, sometimes it just happens because pipes get old and they break. So we talked about, you know, in the triage episode, the know where your shut offs are, and hopefully you can just run them down to the basement and shut the water to the house off, and then you have as much time as you need to deal with the broken pipe. If that doesn't happen, because you don't have a working shut off or you can't get to it, there are these brand of plumbing fittings called SharkBites which don't require any real skill to use. Sort of like, if you are capable of using a can opener and putting a cork in a bottle of wine, you can use a SharkBite fitting. Go on YouTube, there's good demonstrations of how to use them. And all you need is a set of cheap tubing cutters for cutting through the pipe, and either a valve or cap to go on the pipe after you cut it. I recommend, if you're going to keep one thing around, keep the tubing cutter and a valve. Because if you have a valve, you can use that for capping off a pipe that is under pressure. So if you can't shut the water off in your house, and you have a leaking pipe, you're gonna have a mess on your hands. But what you can do is cut through the pipe, open it all the way up. Now you have a pipe spraying water everywhere, and if you try to put a cap on that, you're fighting against the pressure and you can't do it. But if you've a valve, you can put the valve onto the pipe in the open position. So the water just flows through the valve and you close the valve and the water stops. **Brooke ** 1:00:10 But that's—that whole set's only going to be true if you have like a PVC or PEX pipe, right? If you have— **Colin ** 1:00:17 No, they work against copper too. **Brooke ** 1:00:20 Okay, but you need a different tool to cut—well I have like galvanized steel I think it is or, you know, much older pipes than that that are metal. **Colin ** 1:00:29 Cast iron. **Brooke ** 1:00:30 Yeah. **Colin ** 1:00:31 That's a different story. But if you have PEX or copper or PVC, the little cheap tubing cutters that will kind of like a C clamp with a little blade, and you just clamp it down and spin it in the circle until the blade cuts through, one of those and a 90 degree shut off valve is going to get you through a lot of problems because it works against pipes that have pressure in them. And again, there's demonstrations of how to do this on YouTube. It's kind of hard to explain an audio format. But once you see it, you're like, oh, yeah, that's really easy. **Brooke ** 1:01:02 Yeah, I'm visualizing it really well, only because I've built water systems with PEX pipe, and I've used shark bites and all of that. So it's clear to me, but no sense of if it translates if you don't know that. But um, yeah, okay, that's really great. But just the caveat, it doesn't work on all types of pipes. Most types, apparently, I didn't realize the copper also. So that's pretty great. **Colin ** 1:01:24 No, so yeah, it's—watch the videos, familiarize yourself with how you do it beforehand so that you know what to do. But it's really, really simple. And it'll buy you plenty of time until the plumbers can come out and fix the right way. **Brooke ** 1:01:38 Cool, great. And again, that's only if you can't get to the shutoff valve because that would be your first choice in handling that, is to get to the shutoff valve rather than trying to cap the pipe off flowing. **Colin ** 1:01:49 Yeah, cutting into your plumbing is the last resort. Hopefully you can just turn it off, but... **Brooke ** 1:01:54 [Laughing] Just wanted to make sure we say that one twice. **Colin ** 1:01:59 [Laughing] Yeah, that should be the last resort, not the first resort. Excellent point. **Brooke ** 1:02:04 Thanks. All right. Colin, thank you so much for joining us today. I have learned a bunch of stuff and I've had a really great conversation with you. And I'm so happy that you're willing to do this with us again. Do you have anything that you want to plug or promote or otherwise share in closing? **Colin ** 1:02:22 Nope, that's it. **Brooke ** 1:02:27 Okay, that's it, folks. To our listeners, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please share it. Feel free to drop a comment on any of our social media pages or Patreon account. We do read all of your comments and we talk about them collectively. And personally, I love engaging on these subjects further with you all when you reach out to me. I can be found on Mastodon @OgemakweBrooke, that's Brooke with an E. This podcast is produced by the anarchists publishing collective, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We are on Twitter @tangledwild and also on Instagram. Plus, we have a rad website at tangledwilderness.org where you can find our extensive list of projects and publications. This podcast and much of the work of Strangers is made possible by our Patreon supporters. If you want to become a supporter, check out patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. There are cool benefits at various support tiers on Patreon. For instance, if you support the collective at just $5 a month, we mail you a monthly zine. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Dean continue to talk about the ways that mutual aid helps communities prepare for disasters that are already here and disasters that have yet to come. They talk about what things like hope and success can look like even as the world crumbles around us. Guest Info Dean Spade is an American lawyer, writer, trans activist, and associate professor of law at Seattle University School of Law. You can find Dean's work at Deanspade.net, and you can read the article that Margaret and Dean talk about, "Climate Disaster is Here--And the State Will Never Save Us" on inthesetimes.com. You can also find Dean on Twitter @deanspade or on IG @spade.dean. Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Dean Spade on Mutual Aid as Preparedness pt. II **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy, and this is part two of a conversation with Dean Spade. So I should probably listen to part one, but I'm not your boss. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on the network. **Margaret ** 00:42 Okay, I have a kind of final-ish question, I think. And it can be "ish" on the final part. But at the beginning of this, you said that your politics have been moving towards anti-statism, or, you know, possibly anarchism, or whatever. And I'm wondering if you want to talk about that. In some ways, I feel like you've implied a lot of maybe what has drawn you more towards those politics, but I'm really curious about the kind of route you took--not like where you've landed, and what labels you want to throw on things--but what has led you towards those politics? **Dean ** 01:56 I just talked with somebody yesterday who I know from the anti-Zionist Jewish world who was talking about the. . . about how he feels like people haven't thought. . . that he hasn't thought a lot about anti-State or anarchist politics, and he was like, "Why do you think some people haven't and some people haven't?" and I was like, "Oh, I think people just come to our politics. Like, we just kind of stumble into them." It's like, if somebody stumbled into a punk scene in 1999, they probably found anarchism sooner than me. I stumbled into all this queer, anti-police stuff, and we were doing a lot of identity-based work, and people weren't talking about political tendencies in the same way--in part also, because it had been really divisive, at certain points, in our movements where people had gotten so obsessed with their ideology that they'd been able to work together and got really insular. So there was a lot of, I think, push away for some people from that. I think, also, we have lived in times for the last, at least 100 years, that are so deeply reactive anti-anarchist, in particular, because of the history of anarchism in the US and elsewhere. There's a really great piece by William C. Anderson that came out a while--like not that long ago--after the Atlanta indictment about how policing in the United States itself developed through policing anarchism, that I highly recommend. But anyway, I think a lot of us also just haven't gotten. . . Like, it's like you were told, "Anarchists are just people who want chaos and who are dirty white people," or whatever. There's a lot of things that erase the contributions of anti-colonial anarchists and anarchists who aren't white in all these things. Anyway, Or, anti-State tendencies that aren't anarchism in the European sense. But for me, I think what happened is that I've been in movements that have been benefiting from a range of genealogies, including women of color feminism--specifically Black feminism--and other political knowledges and methods that have been anti-institutional, in really great ways have had critiques of the borders and the cops and the military have also had a focus on practices of collectivity and horizontality with us, you know, inside our movements, which are very. . . You know, that really parallel with a lot of anarchist methodologies like "Let's not have a boss in this group," you know? And so all of those things really dovetail with anarchism, but I wasn't ever studying anarchism itself. Some people who were in groups I was in maybe identified as anarchists, but it didn't seem like an essential thing for me to study for a number of years. And I didn't think a lot about whether or not that was my position, because also I just had the same caricatures in my mind that other people did. And I also was like, "Do anarchists think that people shouldn't get welfare?" I don't know. I had some of my own, you know. As somebody who grew up on welfare, I had some questions about that, that I didn't have resolutions to. And then over time, especially doing abolitionist work, it just was so clear to me more and more not only that everything I was already doing dovetailed with anarchism: my interest in mutual aid, my interest in horizontal tactics inside our groups, and building group culture where we learned how to share with each other, and not boss each other around, and all that stuff. But also, the ways in which, I think, abolitionist frameworks are just. . . like, they're so deeply anti-State. It's like, 'Yeah, don't build a better cop. Don't build a better jail. Don't build a better prison. Don't build a better social services framework that's actually still a cop," or you know. And, that you can't have a country without cops, borders, and military. That's what a country is made of, you know? You can't have a Capitalist economy without a boot on everybody's neck making us participate in it. So I just came to realize like, I'm not only--I always knew I was against the United States settler colonial slavery project--but I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm against countries. I'm against that." And then I did start actually reading about this stuff and I was like, "Oh, my God, they're a recent invention. They don't need to be able to organize themselves. That's not how people have always organized themselves." And I also started to see how it actually makes a difference in our tactics about what we're going to do today, if we know this about ourselves, right? Like how we're going to get basically co-opted by projects of "Oh, let's let's do a let's do a million local elections and try to take over a city council 'thing.'" A lot of that work steals the oxygen out of local movements really intensely. And I'm not gonna say it should never ever be done, but I just feel like so much of it actually has a lack of a conversation about what can happen in those spaces behind it and then is incredibly resource intensive and doesn't lead to the things I think people hope it will lead to, like, "Oh, we're gonna have an abolitionist prosecutor and abolitionist city council person or mayor and it's gonna change everything," right? And then not seeing that happen. I think we've seen that it's played out. Or the, you know, I think this is even sharpened for me with the period of the "Defund [the police]" work--which I care a lot about, trying to defund the police--and seeing the fights inside city councils and how deeply impenetrable--like even when you supposedly, in 2020, get the whole city council saying we want to defund the police and there's so much effort on that side--it's like our cities are run by real estate developers, chambers of commerce, and police departments. And the entire apparatus of the city councils--which is in some ways more accessible than any other level of government, of course--is still unmovable. Like you can't. . . you can be right all day long. You can do every kind of research. You can show you can turn up with all the people every single time. And as soon as they can turn around and reestablish their nonstop march to constantly increase the police budget, that's what they'll do. And that is what they have done since 2020 after all this amazing work by so many people. So I think I'm just continually evaluating "Wow, where are there still parts of my own approach to politics that are assuming we can convince governments of things?"--even while I want to get rid of those kinds of governments--and why do I ever think they will voluntarily put down their weapons? And why do I think about getting any different people inside there, inside that machine? I don't believe that about the military. I'm not like, "Well, maybe if Margaret Killjoy was the general, it would all be fine." I know, that's not true. So why do I, and where have I still. . . And I, you know, I forgive myself and all of us. We're all just trying shit our whole lives. And there's so many things I've been involved in that I think were not that generative, but you know, we couldn't have known that. Or, where there was a backlash so that the thing that was generative for a while stopped or, you know, was turned on us in a way that undermined our hopes. But I think that for me it's just an ongoing deepening with different anti-State frameworks, an ongoing deepening of reading history, and understanding why different revolutionary projects that then took on State forms became authoritarian, trying to understand what this kind of insight--which is very hard, because it's about letting go of a lot of hope and a lot of tactics that people are putting a lot of effort into--like, what it directs us to do to most immediately support people's well being, and take down the apparatuses that are hurting us that are, honestly, just like continuing to grow. Like they're all. . . Like the level of surveillance we are under right now compared to five years ago. Like, the capacity for political repression that the State has right now compared to five years ago. I don't know if you saw this, but like-- maybe it was this week--Georgia is going to outlaw bail funds, is going to criminalize bail funds. Tennessee's trying to do the same thing. Like, tiny things we have in our movements to try to support people facing repression, even those they are directly going after. So, yeah, it's really hard to face these conditions. And also, I see a lot of people working really hard on the ground blaming themselves for the effects of the conditions like "Oh, why can't we? Why can't we do a better job stopping these homeless sweeps in our city?" It's like it's not because you're not doing a really good job trying to. There are a lot of really bad conditions. And I think that it goes back to this humility, like, "Okay, wow, things are so dire. What if I let myself know this so that I could talk with my friends about what's possible--given how things actually are--and let go of some of the fantasies?" I think I talked to you briefly before we started the podcast but I recently rewatched those two videos that Naomi Klein and Molly Crabapple--both of whom I really, really respect--made a few years back. They're both videos about what the world could be like after the Green New Deal and after many wonderful uprisings. And they feel so, so misleading to me, watching them right now. Like they imagine a world in which people just protest a lot. And then everyone has things that are better. And also, we still have countries and jobs. It very weirdly doesn't get rid of Capitalism or the nation state. But it's like, there's a kind of like. . . I think that it's very dangerous, those fantasies, that we can do certain kinds of tactics and our opponents will just turn over. And I think those are inside a lot of people's--a lot of very wise people's--messages. And I just increasingly, when I encounter them, feel much more concerned about what they teach us and how they mislead us. **Margaret ** 11:00 I just think that we have to always look clear-headedly at what our actual threats are, at what's actually happening, and then make our decisions based on how to actually address that, rather than being like, "I want to become just like this person I read about in history, so I'm going to do whatever they did." And this could be true of, "I want to be a principled pacifist and get arrested just like Gandhi," or whatever, right? You know, it could also be, "I want to be just like the following anarchist in the 1880s who decided it was time to start shooting people," you know? We just need to actually look at what's happening and make our decisions based on that. And it's hard, because what we're facing is different from what anyone else has ever faced in history. Not necessarily worse--although the overall ecosystem is worse than anything minus whenever all the. . . you know, before humans evolved, and various other mass die offs that have happened or whatever. But it's different and it's bad. And we just need to look at it and then come up with solutions. Or even some of this is, "How do we solve this problem?" And some of it is like, "How do we live with this?" Not accept it but accept that it's going to have consequences on us and that fighting it isn't going to be easy and we might not win. But what are the best tools by which we can fight it, and/or what are the best tools that we can use to live meaningful lives in the process? You know, so that when we inevitably die, at 103 or 33, we can be proud of who we were. You know, and obviously, there's theological or metaphysical considerations into exactly what that process looks like that'll be different for different people. But, you know, I think that that's what to do. **Dean ** 13:06 It's also about not trying to feel better. I think there's just something so intense about how people are like, you know, "If you talk about collapse, it makes me feel bad." And there's an assumption that that will demobilize me. And it's like, actually, Capitalism is like, either feel bad or feel good, you know? And that's not how life is. Life is like, fuck. . . For example, you have a terrible loss and you live with grief. And you also still enjoy this beautiful meal. And you're still grieving. And you're in pain. And being willing. . . or--I see a lot of my students--they're like, "Oh, my God, the things I'm learning in your class, I'm so worried about these terrible things in the world that I didn't know we're going on. This is so awful." And they want to instantly know what to do to feel better. And I'm like, I can't make. . . I don't want you to do things feel better. I want you to do things to try to be part of something and you'll never know if they worked or not. Because that's the nature of it. You don't know what our opposition's next countermove is or whether we'll regret some parts of it, but it's the trying stuff, it's the listening to feedback about what didn't go well or how it hurts somebody else. The goal is connection and belonging with each other and experimentation. And, you know, it doesn't always feel good to receive negative feedback, but often it's like incredibly growthful. It's like feeling good can't be the goal. Feeling, Yes. And sometimes feeling good. And pursuing pleasure, absolutely. But not like, "I want to have a pat" happiness where I don't have to worry or be concerned or be critical. Like of course nobody who sees themselves as radical should be wanting that, but I still think that craving--when it comes to conversations about collapse--where it's like I want the one thing that will make me feel better. Or, people feel that about Gaza. Like, "Oh my God, I just found about about this horrible genocide that's happening. I've not known about this before. I want to be able to go to one action and feel I did something and to then be better and post it on Instagram. And it's like, A) love them for waking up to what's happening in Gaza. I love, love any moment where people become more interested in the wellbeing of all people and stopping violence, and we have to be willing to take in how overwhelming this is, how unmovable the war machine feels, and still take action against it, but not because we're guaranteed that what we did today works, or something. You know what I mean? Like that feels--that simplicity--really cheats us of the really complex position we're actually in, that if we can let ourselves be in it, might allow discernment towards better action, hopefully, you know? **Margaret ** 15:30 No, and I like how you tie that to the way that capitalism makes us think that happiness is the goal. Like, I like happiness. But my goal in life is not specifically to lead a happy life; it's to have a meaningful life and to have as complete of a life as--I mean, every life is complete. And, you know, when you look at. . . Anyone who's ever known a child who's died has had to come to terms with the fact that every life is complete, you know, is a thing that I've been dealing with because of some stuff. And, you know. . . Yeah, the idea that you're just supposed to be happy is some fucking McDonald's shit. You know? And don't get me wrong, seek happiness. Do it. It's great. You know? But yeah, sometimes you just need to accept. . . Like, I want to live a beautiful life and I think that is a different thing, you know? And maybe because I'm like a goth, or whatever, I find a lot of different things beautiful than some other people. But. . . No, I. . . I like that. And it does. It helps get people beyond the like, "Oh, good, I can sleep at night because I went to one protest," you know? And instead, like learning to sit with the discomfort of all these things happening and understanding where we do and don't have agency and. . . Imean, don't get me wrong, people should be going to these protests. You know, if nothing else that are good ways to find the other people who care. **Dean ** 17:04 Yeah, meet other people and try stuff. I mean, I want to live in reality. I want to know that. . . I want to. . . If I've been working on a strategy for 10 years and it has actually not been helping, it's been hurting people, I want to know. I don't want to keep doing it just because my ego is attached to it, or my paycheck. I've seen that a lot in the dilemmas with the [uninterpretable] movements, you know, where I want to. . . Yeah, absolutely, I'm like, be promiscuous about the stuff you try. Go to all the protests. Go to anything. Try anything. But it's that willingness to keep open the possibility that I'm going to get feedback or learn that. . . learn the impacts, or learn my position on the world, or learn how the clothes I'm wearing impact people who made them, or what. . . I just like, I just want to be in reality, and that includes the reality of how unbearably beautiful being alive is, how the entire... how my entire body was structured to receive pleasure from this incredible landscape. That reality too, which is Capitalism also shuts down and tells me to only be entertained by video games and chips, or whatever. You know, I want to live fully in the reality of how beautiful and abundant and gorgeous this life is and how heartbreaking and devastating these systems are, and how little control I have over them. And then, the moments when I do feel a connection, or am of service to something in my community, like how that is--like all of that, you know? But not through the filter of liberalism, that's just like, "I need to find out that I'm a good person. TM [trademarked]," you know? **Dean ** 17:04 Okay, so in that vein, to bring it back to kind of some of the preparedness stuff that you've been writing more about and engaging with more, I was wondering if you want to talk about, like, what do you what is preparedness looking like for you right now? Or, you know, how is it affecting you as much as you feel like talking about anything personal? Like, how is it affecting the kind of decisions that you're making about how you want to live or how you prepare? **Dean ** 18:55 That's such a good question. I mean, in general, my study of collapse is affecting a lot of things for me. I'm thinking a lot about the ethics of the fact that I travel on planes and how to reduce that or eliminate it. And also I don't want to get stuck somewhere really far away from my people when things are bad. So I've been thinking a lot about shifting and changes around that. I've been thinking a lot about how much I want to work a job. What are the other options here? You know what I mean? Just like when will I know that I don't want to do that? Or whatever. I've been writing a book for 10 years that's kind of like a relationships self-help book for radicals, you know, kind of thing, because I've spent so much time in our movements watching people, you know, tear each other in our groups apart with our own unexamined relational patterns that are very, you know, the pattern across the culture. So, I've been writing a book about that. And part of me is like, "At this point, I just need to recognize I'm writing this for pleasure. Like, I don't know that there's time for this to be of any use to anyone," you know what I mean? That's an interesting move to shift from thinking the, you know, probably totally ridiculous fantasy any of us have when we write anything, that people will read this and it will help them do something, and be like, "Or not?" Or I'm just really working on a book for 10 years, just for me...because that's what I did with those 10 years of my life. Okay. Like, that's an interesting move to let go of outcomes even more than ever. And I don't think I ever thought that I would have been terribly impacted by even the little hope of that. **Dean ** 18:55 Yeah, I think just to. . .just to gas you up really quick. I've seen your cultural impact for years now, and it's always been positive. So I appreciate it. But please continue. **Dean ** 20:44 I mean, I think about whether I want to live in the country, whether the cities will be the hardest places to be. And I have friends who have moved to rural places and like really cultivated deep relationships with people, even across political differences in the places they're living. And I'm like, "Huh." And then I think about some really, some really, you know, detailed specific things. Like, if I'm going to live in the country, in the Pacific Northwest where I live, how can I live less near all of the scariest...you know, right-wing neo-Nazis and closer instead to some of the rural people who are a little more like fruits and nuts, you know? So I asked myself that question. I think about what that would look like, you know, off grid? You know, I'm not somebody who can like buy a vacation house or something. So like what kind of off-grid small sort of thing can I do with anybody I know who already has a land project. I think about that. I think about. . .I think I've been thinking a lot about--I think maybe I mentioned this to you--of thinking a lot about doing something like go bag parties even in subcultural scenes in my own town. Like doing things to get more people to talk about disaster and collapse, you know? And if they want to think about it as an earthquake go bag, awesome. That's a danger in Seattle for sure. If they want to think about it like that. You know, like, having people just, I was thinking about, like, how do you make those parties fun? Like, you know, having there be giveaways, having there be like. . . having people bring. . . You know, is it also a clothing exchange? Like, is it a sex toy exchange? Like, I've been just imagining different, you know, what would that look like for my queer-er friends versus what will it look like for people on my block, versus what would it look like with my students? Like, just kind of what would be different. . . what would help different people try it and then also think they could put one on, you know? Like, just how to really--especially because I feel like this podcast is very user-friendly in that way, so I've been really inspired by some of your episodes to think about what are the ways I could take what I love about mutual aid organizing, how I love meeting people, and I love making an event happen, making it welcoming, having people make new friends, and how can that be oriented towards people thinking about preparedness? And how much--some of the questions I've asked myself are--how much would there be any talking and programming at such an event or how much would it just be like, "come and grab this stuff. And here's some printouts of things you could have in your go bag. And here's a pile of bags. And there's a pile of, you know, emergency blankets. And here's a pile of whatever," right? So I've had those kinds of questions about how to do. . . I think that's what's next for me is to actually try on some of that organizing with some people that are actually interested in that. **Margaret ** 23:10 When you do that, can you come back on and talk about how it went? I feel like people will learn from that a lot. **Dean ** 23:15 Yeah, and I'd love to, if other people have tried it--I'm curious--please reach out to me. Curious to hear their experiences. **Margaret ** 23:21 Me and one of my friends who does this kind of work too, we put on a day of preparedness. We did a, you know, where you get. . . There were a bunch of different talks by different people who lived in that area who came and they talked about the projects they're working on. There was someone who was like, "Oh, I'm really into mesh networks." And someone else is like, "Oh, I'm doing things like water collection and rainwater and things like that." And there were multiple. . . There were, I think, a total of maybe about six events at. . . So you could pick between two at any given point, like the way that conferences work, or whatever. And it was, you know, a local food. . . a local food distro did lunch that was free for everyone. But then dinner was a giant potluck. And I've actually never seen a giant potluck work so well as the one that I went to. It was cool. And then there was a big talk that was everyone and it was more in the evening. Some people only came for that. And it was, you know, we used me as sort of a keynote-ish person but then it was. . . Immediately from there. It was a facilitated roundtable of the people who live in that town talking about their needs and how to meet them. And I'm now thinking maybe I talked about this before on the show. I have no idea. And then at the very end, we made a long term food bucket. You know, a mylar bag, rice, and beans thing, which is way easier to do if you buy it all in bulk. And then it was kind of fun. And it was. . . My favorite part about it was that theoretically I was organizing it. And I know how to make the bucket. But I don't know how to necessarily make the 15 people figure out how to make sure that all the food goes evenly to these different buckets or whatever. And people were like, "How do we do that?" and I was like, "Figure it out. I don't know." And then everyone's self organized it and it worked perfectly fine. And then like everyone felt more invested, because they were...everyone was in charge and figuring things out together. And it was like a nice little microcosm of those, those nice moments in so many ways. And, you know, and then it was. . . I would say a good third of the people didn't have any money--and so didn't pay for their buckets--and a good third of the people were like, "I can easily pay twice as much as what this bucket cost," you know, because those buckets, if you make your own are only like 20 bucks. If you buy them at a prepper store--if you buy them at a reasonable prepper store, they're 50 bucks--if you buy them from Alex Jones and all that shit, then they're not very good and they're way more than that. And so that worked, that model works really well. And we're hoping to replicate it. And so, but I really like the way that you're talking about it. I really like the idea of like, yeah, how would it be different? How would the go bag party be different for your block versus your students versus your queer friend group, but I'm fascinated. I want to hear how it goes. **Dean ** 26:07 Yeah, I love what you said about people having to figure things out. I noticed this a lot when we had that police free zone in Seattle during the 2020 uprising, how many people who showed up who'd never done anything political in their life. they've never, ever, ever, and they like to come to it. Like they're coming to the movement. And they arrived at the field, at Cal Anderson Park, and they wanted something to do, you know? They wanted to do part of an art build, or they. . . Like people don't want to just sit and watch, you know? And then once you are a part of doing something, you're helping move a barricade--whatever--then you're like, it's like a transformative. Like, "I was there and I was part of it. And I was important to it." It lets you have it be your...it's your identity, instead of "I went and watched the movement," you know? Whatever it is, I just thought that moment, when you said--"agency" is the word you use earlier--I feel like that you can. . . that can happen anywhere. But part of the way it happens is not like overly babying, you know, everybody. You know, yes, making things accessible and trying to make it really welcoming, but also putting people to work if they're up for it helping coordinate, you know? **Margaret ** 27:11 This actually goes full circle to something we were talking about at the beginning. We were talking about how we talk about disasters with people, right? And the note, the words that I wrote down in my notes that I take while I'm interviewing people, is I wrote down "disaster fatigue," because that's the. . . like the way that I think about it, you know, the. . . The way that I. . . A long time ago, I did forest defense and I would go sit in trees and fight against clearcutting and stuff like that. But I, I actually avoided going to West Virginia and fighting mountaintop removal for a long time, even though I knew it was happening, because it was too much of a problem. A clearcut is something that is a horrible crisis. And you can wrap your head around it even as people kill ancient trees. The Appalachians are like older than air, or something. I don't even know. They're old as shit. They are some of the oldest mountains in the world, right? And, the fact that people were clearcutting the mountain, like blowing up the mountain, was just too much. I couldn't wrap my head around it. And so I just didn't think about it. And I think that overall, that's what people do with climate change. There's big, major things that are happening, that are really big. And I'm not trying to say that other crises that are happening aren't really big. Climate change is the mother of all crises. You know? It is the most existential threat to all life on Earth that has existed since there was sentient life. And I'm not just including humans in that, you know? And, so people don't want to think about it. And I think that makes sense. And I think that the people who put in the work to be like, "Hey, come to Mountain Justice Summer Camp, or Spring Break Camp or whatever, and made these spaces where people could show up and learn about what was happening and get engaged. I think that maybe climate change. . . Yeah, it's the. . . Have people show up and give them something to do or tell them that work needs doing and that they can figure out what to do, you know? But we kind of, as a movement, a little bit too much are like, "I don't know, just figure it out." Because then the current people who like making. . . There's actually some people doing amazing work. There's a lot of people fighting pipelines and there's people fighting extraction. And I'm not even like mad at the people who like throw food at paintings or whatever, but it's not something that invites a lot of people in--from my perspective. I'm not. . . Honestly, I try not to talk shit on tactics. I try to be like...I try to do the "more stuff" model of critique where instead of talking shit on their tactic, I should do a different tactic. And what am I doing? I mean, whenever. I'm running around trying to help people get prepared. I actually think I'm doing a lot. But anyway. I just got excited about what you were saying. **Dean ** 30:11 Yeah, that thing. I mean, it's like. . . I think a lot about how the Young Lords said--you know, who are. . . they're fighting Puerto Rican liberation in the 1970s and modeled themselves after the Black Panthers. And they said in their early texts, you know, that they believed that their own people seeing their people fight in the streets with the cops would radicalize people. So that like having escalated tactics--and this is similar to the Ireland story you told--escalated tactics, confrontational tactics, liberals will tell us we're going to alienate people. . . What did you say? **Margaret ** 30:44 Setting fire to trash on the streets. I really like the Young Lords. **Dean ** 30:47 Yeah, like, escalated tactics don't alienate people, they bring a lot of people in. And the people who think they're alienated from them might feel scared of them and stuff, but the cultural shift and change that they produce still brings people along. In the end, they're like, "Oh, no, no, I'm not racist," or whatever, you know? It's like it moves everyone. It moves the needle. And so I think we need escalated tactics and we need invitations and inroads. And for a long time, I've said I think mutual aid is one of the best on ramps, and historically has been one the best onramps for movements. **Margaret ** 31:16 Absolutely. **Dean ** 31:17 Most people get involved in movements through trying to immediately help somebody, you know, because that's what. . . when you're fired up, that's what you want, or because they got help through a mutual aid project of some kind and that's what politicized them. They're like, "Who are these people who are giving away this thing that I need that I can't get anywhere else," you know, "Who are not mean to me and who tell me it's not my fault, and that, actually, the system's fucked, huh? What are they saying? And they're right," you know? So that, I believe deeply in the mutual aid onramp. And I also think that moments like riots and stuff can be an onramp when people are like, "I'm joining in. And now I'm burning a cop car," and that feeling that kind of power. And then, "I want to learn more about who these people were, who I met in the streets," or whatever. And for some people, the on ramp is that they first encounter. . . I mean, I have a friend who's a really incredible anarchist organizer who does really massive mutual aid projects, and is just so brilliant, and told me that they're. . . they first were like. . . they joined the Bernie campaign. And then we're really involved in the Bernie Sanders campaign and then we're like, "Wait, I don't know if this is really working," you know? But like, everyone comes in somehow, you know? And so part of it too, is that we should be in all those places trying to encourage people to learn more about movement history or horizontal tactics or bold tactics that are. . . I just went to an amazing event at an anarchist space in Seattle called Pipsqueak. The event was surrounding. . . they had collected all these accounts of kind of sabotage and vandalisms and shut-down types of actions related to opposing the genocide in Gaza. So many stories I hadn't heard, you know? They collected this huge amount. They had this really wonderful hour of like, you could come and read this zine they'd printed out with all this stuff and think it through, and then a really, really well facilitated discussion for an hour and a half. And I was like, that's like. . . Like, making sure people can find out about the rad stuff that's happening, that's not going to be reported in the news. That's so cool. And also then people got to discuss all their dilemmas about tactics. Like, "Oh, my gosh, I've been going to all these kind of more, you know, media spectacle events about Gaza. I thought these things about that. What's it like to learn about these other things people are doing?" You know, people get to have those juicy conversations about what they think about the tactics they're using. **Margaret ** 33:28 I love it. And we talked about twice as long as we thought we were going to and now this is two episodes. So you all listening had to wait an extra week to hear the other half of the conversation. Do you have any kind of last thoughts on preparedness, mutual aid, how your thinking has shifted, all the topics that we've been talking about today? **Dean ** 33:50 Well, the thing that's spurred us having this conversation was that I wrote that piece for In These Times that was about my experience of reading two sci-fi--cli-fi novels--one is "Ministry of the Future," and one was "The Deluge." And I encourage people to read that piece if you want to hear my thoughts on those books. But one of the things that happened from reading those books and then writing about what I thought was a failure of different aspects of those books was how now--I did think about this because you are an amazing fiction writer--like how part of what happens to me now when I read almost any speculative book, any book, that's fiction that takes place somewhat in the future, is I am like, it feels instantly conservative because it never includes collapse, right? Because inevitably they've got us 50 years ahead and there's some AI. Or there's been some disruption from climate stuff. Like, it's never as bad as it actually is. And that is fascinating to me, you know? And they always have all this intense tech development in such books in ways that I like--I really recommend people actually listen to Kelly Hayes podcast episodes about AI. Really useful for me in trying to understand the hubris of the tech sector, and the way they talk about AI and the way they're making people afraid of or hopeful about AI, and how off base it is, and kind of what the deal really is. But anyway, I just want to say that I have historically found speculative fiction to be a vital place for trying to help myself think about crisis and collapse and also now I feel so strongly because I--I think I may have mentioned this to you, once--I've been very moved by this person Jem Bendell, who's like this. . . in many ways, he does not share all of our values. And it's coming from a very different place. But he's this academic kind of whistleblower about how bad climate stuff really is. And he. . . I find myself often like, I find myself going into my own denial about what's happening and retreating from what I know and then I listened to the introduction to his book, "Breaking Together," again to remind myself about the stakes of what I'm living through. And I feel like in some ways I used to use--and I still somewhat use speculative fiction in that way--but I'm just increasingly like. . . even most speculative fiction is telling us the wrong message about how long the systems we live under are going to last and how much they're going to flourish with the technologies that I just don't think is real. **Margaret ** 36:12 You know, what's funny, some of this--a little bit of it--is baked into a problem of writing fiction where if you. . . I've actually gotten--not in trouble with--but I've had editors take out dates in my writing before, right? Because I'll write a short story about a sort of collapse-y world or whatever and I'll be like, "After 2022, when the. . ." because I wrote this in like 2018, or whatever, because I was trying to write on a realistic timeline where I was like, "Oh, the world's not gonna be the same in 2022." And I feel like I was pretty accurate about that, right? But they have to future proof their magazine, right? And so, you know, you don't want to make certain types of claims about the next three years because you want your story to be...to have a shelf life of that long. And so some of it is baked in as a problem in publishing and in science fiction writing. And that said, I think most people. . . Did you ever read that book "Desert," the green nihilist book. . . **Dean ** 37:12 Yeah, I've read like half of it. **Margaret ** 37:15 I haven't read it in a long time. I remember reading it and being like, "Well, this is naively optimistic." [Laughing] **Dean ** 37:23 That's the one where they're like, "7/8ths of people are gonna die." **Margaret ** 37:27 Yeah, I can't even remember exactly. **Margaret ** 37:28 But yeah, it was like climate change isn't going to be stopped, and we have to re-address how things work on a fundamental level. And because where I've been at. . . I don' t know. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm with you on. . . like, when I read stuff about the future, where it's like, "And then it'll all work." I actually still really like "Ministry for the Future," and maybe actually should have you on just specifically to talk about "Ministry of the Future" at a different point. But it. . . you know, because it's a complicated. . . It's a caveated, "I like this book," you know? **Dean ** 37:28 It's intense. **Dean ** 38:02 That's how I feel about "The Deluge." It's like, I like "Deluge" even though I think it also has the same problem. **Margaret ** 38:06 I haven't read "Deluge" yet. **Margaret ** 38:08 Oh, there's no character development in "Ministry." **Dean ** 38:08 I think it's really worth reading. I think it's way better character development than "Ministry." It's way better. **Dean ** 38:14 Oh god, yeah. "Ministry" is so dry. **Margaret ** 38:17 Kim Stanley Robinson does not write people. Kim Stanley Robinson writes ecosystems. **Dean ** 38:21 Yeah, and "Deluge" really ropes in a lot more of rise in fascism with climate crisis and has characters that are more different class, race, gender than "Ministry" and is just like. . . it's way more compelling, unfolding, even though in the end it still imagined that states will turn around and like fix things. **Margaret ** 38:47 Well, I think there's plenty more we could talk about. And I hope we get to talk about it soon at some point. But in the meantime, how can people find you or your work? Or what would you like people to. . . or if you want to shout out any specific projects that you want to draw attention towards whether they're yours or other people's. **Dean ** 39:07 Mostly everything I do I put on--I mean, I'm kind of bad at it--but I'll put a lot of things at deanspade.net, which is my website where I collect the things I write and the videos and the many things. So that's a pretty good source for the backlog. **Margaret ** 39:23 If people want to read the specific article that we've been talking about, if you just. . . it's called "Climate Disaster is Here and the State Will Never Save Us." But also if you type in--the way I found it just now while we're...when I was trying to come up with the title--I just typed in "Dean Spade, Kim Stanley Robinson," personally, and it came up, you know. But, okay. Anything else? **Dean ** 39:47 Thanks for having me. **Margaret ** 39:48 Thank you. **Margaret ** 39:54 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then you should run around screaming that the sky is. . . No, don't do that. You should make bug out bags for your friends or do whatever you want. You should think about. . . Whatever we already told you what we think. But you can also support this show. And if you want to support the show, you can do so by telling people about it. And you can support the show by supporting us financially on Patreon. Do not feel obliged to do it. This is a free show. However, we're incredibly grateful because people's donations are how we manage to pay our transcriptionist, which is very important to us the show is transcribed, and then also our audio engineer. And one day--I keep promising this but we don't know when this day will come--one day, it'll pay the hosts or the guests. But for now it doesn't. And that's okay because, you know, the world works the way it works. You can support us on Patreon by supporting our publisher, which is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And in particular, we would like to thank Ephemeral. Oh, there's new names on here. That's really exciting. Ephemeral. Appalachian Liberal Liberation Library. And they wanted to specifically point--I would never make this--but they specifically pointed out it's Appalachian [App-a-latch-un], not Appalachian [App-a-lay-shun]. That's in the description of how we're going to read this. Portland's Hedron Hackerspace. Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eric, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S. J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Mic Aiah, and, as always, the immortal, Hoss the dog. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Dean talk about the ways that mutual aid helps communities prepare for disasters that are already here and disasters that have yet to come. Guest Info Dean Spade is an American lawyer, writer, trans activist, and associate professor of law at Seattle University School of Law. You can find Dean's work at Deanspade.net, and you can read the article that Margaret and Dean talk about, "Climate Disaster is Here--And the State Will Never Save Us" on inthesetimes.com. You can also find Dean on Twitter @deanspade or on IG @spade.dean. Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Dean Spade on Mutual Aid as Preparedness **Margaret ** 00:24 Hello and welcome to Live Live the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Margaret Killjoy. And today, I'm gonna be talking to Dean Spade, and we're gonna talk about so much stuff. We're gonna talk about so much stuff that this is going to be a two parter. So you can hear me talk with Dean this week and you can hear me talk with Dean next week. Or, if you're listening to this in some far-flung future, you can listen to it both at once in between dodging laser guns from mutants that have come out of the scrap yards, riding dinosaurs. I hope that's the future, or at least it wouldn't be boring. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on the network. **Margaret ** 01:53 Okay, we're back. So if you could introduce yourself with I guess your name, your pronouns, and then maybe a little bit about how you ended up doing the kind of work that led you to be on this show talking about mutual aid and collapse and preparedness? **Dean ** 02:10 Totally. Yeah, I'm Dean, I use he/him. And we could start anywhere. I became politicized primarily, like in the late 90s, living in New York City. You know, Rudy Giuliani was mayor/ There was a really vibrant, like very multi-issue, cross-class, multiracial kind of resistance happening to his range of anti-poor pro-police politics happening in the city; people, you know, in the fight around immigrant rights, in the fight around labor, sex workers being zoned out of Time Square. You know, there was just. . .it was a real moment. And I was part of queer nightlife. And people were experiencing a lot of intense policing. And a lot of us were part of work related to, you know, things that had spun off of Act Up, like a lot of direct support to people who were living with HIV and AIDS and trying to get through the New York City welfare processes, and dealing with housing. So a lot of mutual aid in that work from the get, and a lot of work related to that overlap between criminalization and poverty, from a queer, trans, feminist perspective. And that work was also tied into like, very, you know. . . a broader perspective. Like a lot of people were tied to the liberation of Puerto Rico, and the fight against the US Navy bombing Vieques, people were tied into the fight around Palestine. So it was very local--hyperlocal--New York City work, but it was very international because New York City is a very international place, and those politics were very international. So that really shaped me in a lot of ways. And I went from there to becoming a poverty lawyer and focusing on doing Poverty Law for trans people, you know, really focused on people in jails and prisons and welfare systems and immigration proceedings and foster care and stuff like that; homeless shelters. I did that for a number of years, and then increasingly felt like I. . . I just felt the real limits of doing that work as a lawyer and really prefer unpaid organizing and not being do not doing that to kind of the nonprofit and sort of like social services, legal services frame. And so my job, for now 15 years, has been that I'm a law professor. It's like a really great job that's not like. . . you know, it's not a nine to five, and that's wonderful. You don't have a boss really, and things like that. And so I teach to kind of pay my bills and what my life is really about is, you know, a lot of. . . it's been a lot of local abolitionist stuff. Like, you know, site fights around different jails and other facilities or police stations or whatever and mutual aid work and, you know, tied in for years with various aspects of like Palestine movement, especially around trying to push back against pinkwashing. And like writing stuff and making media and collaborating with artists and and, yeah. So, that's like that's that same. . .I've always think I've stayed the same, but also, I think my ideas have changed a lot over time. I've gravitated more towards anarchist or anti-state thought. And thinking a lot more in recent years about the ecological crisis and collapse and just kind of like what that means for the tactics and strategies we're all engaged in kind of all these different movements spaces. **Margaret ** 05:41 I think that that's probably--that last point--is kind of the core of what I want to ask you about and talk to you about, because while you were talking, I was thinking about how like, you know, all of these things that you're talking about--the activism you're doing in New York, for example==I mean, it's all preparedness, right? Like us, helping each other out is being. . . like, aware of actual threats and working to mitigate them? And that's what preparedness is for me, right? And, I actually think activism is a very good, solid place to come from for preparedness, right? I'd rather have a bunch of activists and organizers around me than specifically people who like, know how to skin squirrels. I like people who can do both to be honest, but you know, as compared to the traditional assumption of what a prepper or someone who's involved in preparedness, what their background would be. But I also. . .okay, so it's like I want one, I kind of wanna talk about the activist-preparedness pipeline. But the thing that I'm really excited to talk to you about is kind of the opposite, is the thing that you just brought up. What does awareness of ecological crisis do to our activism? What does it do to how we make decisions around what to prioritize? How to live? Like, for me, the thing that started this show was that I was like, "I'm very aware of this coming ecological crisis. I feel a little bit distant from other people because I feel a little bit like I'm running around screaming, 'the sky is falling.' Because I could see it and I don't understand why no one else can see it," you know? And it was basically like, how does this inform the decisions we make? Right? Which is where the title sort of literally comes from. But I think you've done a lot of work around this, around how awareness of ecological crisis impacts how we choose to be activists. And I'm wondering if you could talk about how it's impacted you or how you've learned to help communicate this to people. Right, because that's one of the biggest scary things is how do we not Chicken Little while needing to Chicken Little? You know, we need a little bit of Chicken Little--a little. Yeah, okay. I'm done. **Dean ** 08:05 I want to come back to the pipeline later. Let's remember to do that. But one thing that your question brings up for me also is just, I just want to talk--and I'm curious about your experiences of this--I want to be real about how much denial there is like. And I think this is really interesting. Like, I find an extreme amount of denial about the level of the crisis, even amongst people I know who are incredibly radical and spent their lives trying to end denial around other things they care about. Like we spent our lives trying to be like, "Look what's happening in prisons and jails in our society," or "Look at what poverty is," or "Look at what the war machine is." But then when it comes to like, "Hey, y'all, I think that, like, collapse is nigh, and that might affect our strategies." People are like, "I don't want to hear about that." Literally, "Don't talk to me about that," because it's so scary, and there's so much stress. And then I get like a certain set of like really common denial reactions like, "Well, the world has ended before." And it's like, yes, every time colonialism is happening a world, a way of life, a way people have been together is ending. Absolutely. And there is something unique and specific about this particular mass extinction event. And it's okay to say. . . it doesn't mean that those things didn't happen or aren't happening. But they're. . .but that feels to me like sometimes a phrase people use that's just like, "I don't want to think about this anymore." I'm like, let's think about that and this because actually, they're all happening together. Right? Like, obviously, colonization is ongoing and it determines who is feeling the heat fastest, you know? That, I get that one a lot or I get like, "Well, humans are bad and maybe the world should just end," kind of thing. Like, let's hasten it, or like, you know, maybe not, "Let's hasten it," but like, you know, that feels really messed up to me. That feels like skipping over and denying how much meaningful suffering we want to acknowledge and recognize and also try to prevent, and it ignores the fact that not all humans have made this happen. Actually, most humans who ever existed have fought against extraction and states and wars, and it's like just elites running state formations that have made this happen. Like that feels really not right and unjust, that kind of frame. I just get a lot of autopilot denial statements from people when I try to talk about this, that are from people like who I love and who really share my other values. And I'm just like, what's going on? How can I get people to talk with me about this in a way that's not--I'm not trying to just kick up fear and terror. And also, it's probably reasonable to feel fear and try to hold that with each other, because that's a reasonable response to the fact that I'm. . .I feel very certain that my life will end earlier than it likely would have ended because of the collapse of systems that I rely on--all of which are like terrible systems of extraction that I wish I didn't rely on to live, but I do. Like, I want to talk about that with people I love. And, you know, I think it makes such a big difference in our political movements because we're so often in conversations that are about unrealistic timelines of change by trying to persuade people, trying to. . . you know, let's persuade Congress, let's persuade. . . like, I don't know, these are kind of moral persuasion, long-term frameworks for transformative change that are dubious on many levels but also are just really unrealistic with what we're staring down the barrel of. So to me, potentially, awareness of the level of crisis that's happening, would allow us to be very humble and pragmatic about immediate needs and preparation, as opposed to being invested in.... One other thing I'll say about denial is I think one of the things that produces so much of this denial is there's so much fake good news about climate. It's like "This person is developing this cool thing to put in the ocean," or it's all tech-based and it's like tech is gonna save us somehow. And it's those kinds of, "I feel good because I read one good thing about how one species is on the rebound." That is a whole news machine telling us not to be worried and also that experts have an under control, and someone else is going to fix it. And don't look around at the actual overwhelming evidence of, again, living through another hottest year on record, you know? And so I guess I'm just--I'm sorry I'm all over the place--but I just, I really feel strongly about what would it take for the people in our communities who are so. . .who dedicate our lives to reducing suffering of all living beings, to let ourselves know more about what's happening, and see how that would restructure some of our approaches to what we want to do with this next five years, you know? **Margaret ** 12:50 I think that that's such a. . .it's such a good point because one of the things that we. . .one of the mainstream narratives around climate change--you know, I mean, obviously, the right-wing narrative is  that it's not happening--and then the liberal narrative--and it's the narrative that we easily fall into, even as radicals and progressives and anarchists an ect--Is that, "Hey, did you know that we're in trouble by 2050?" You know, and we're like, "We better get our shit together in the next 30 years." And I'm like, "I'm gonna be dead 30 years from now and not of old age." You know? And, I, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I'm often wrong about this kind of thing, right? But I need to take into consideration the very likely possibility that that is going to happen. And I need to--and there's certain things that I can do to like mitigate the dangers that I'm facing--but overall, it's the same thing that you do by being born, where you're like, "Well, I'm going to die," right? And so you're like, I need to make decisions based on the fact that I'm gonna die one day. And so I need to choose what's important to me and, like, do my YOLO shit. I don't think anyone says YOLO anymore. But, you know, I need to, act like I know that I might die at any moment and make my decisions based on that. And people are like, "Yeah, by 2045 It's gonna be so much trouble." And I'm like, "2030." You know, this year, last year, two years ago, COVID," you know? And we just need to take it into consideration. All of these things that you're bringing up is a really interesting me. I took a bunch of different notes. I'm going to talk--I'm going to also kind of scattershot it. And one of the things that came up recently, we do a This Month in the Apocalypse and we do a This Year in the Apocalypse or "last year in the apocalypse," and the last year we did Last Year of the Apocalypse-- whatever the episode we did recently about last year--you know, we got some feedback where people were like, "Y'all were a little bit more cynical and doom and gloom than you usually manage," and it's true. And I try actually fairly hard with the show, because if you're completely doom and gloom all of the time, it's pretty natural to just shut down and eat cookies and wait for the end or whatever, right? And that's like, not what I want to promote. But on some level, I'm reaching the point where I'm like, "Yeah, no, this is. . . it's bad. The asteroid's right there. We can see it. It's coming. We need to act like that's happening, you know? And there's only so many times and ways you can say that. But the thing I.... Okay, one of the things I really like about what you brought up, is what that timeline does. In some ways it disrupts--including radical projects, right--like, one of my projects is social change and cultural change and one of my projects is to help people--and especially next generations of people--operate in a more egalitarian way, you know, in my mind a more anarchic way but whatever. I honestly don't give all that much of a shit about labels with this, you know? And that's like, a lot of my work, right? And then I'm like, I wonder how much that matters? You know, right now. And I wonder how much--and I think it does in kind of an.... I think this comes from the Quran, "If the world were ending tomorrow, I would plant a tree today." You know? I always saw it as like the cool activist slogan. And then eventually, it was like, "Oh, that, I think that's a Quranic slogan." And that's cool. And so as an anarchist that influences my thinking, right? About like,, okay, this slow cultural work has a point but isn't necessarily what we're going to do to save us--as much as "saving" happens. But it also really disrupts--and I think this is what you kind of mentioned--it's really interesting how much it disrupts the liberal perspective of this. And I remember having this conversation--I don't want to out this person as a liberal, [a person] that I love dearly [and is] an important part of my life, is very much a liberal--and when we're talking about, "Oh, I wish we would have a green New Deal, but it just, it won't happen. There's no way it'll get through Congress." And so at that, this person throws up their hands, they're like, "Well, what would save us is a green New Deal and it's not going to happen. So okay." And it's just, to me, it's like, well then what? You know? And you get into this place. And I think overall, I think anarchists and some other folks have been kind of aware of this for a while, where revolution is actually less of a long shot than electoral change on something that has a timeline, like mitigating the worst effects of climate change. And revolution is a shit fucking record, just an absolute garbage record. But it happens faster--but electoral change also as a garbage record and is slow as shit. **Dean ** 18:04 Yeah, and also, if everything's falling apart.... So like, I think that the systems that we live under, like the food system and the energy system in particular, are, you know, I think we saw this with COVID, the supply chains breaking down really quickly. Like the whole global supply chain is already like a shoe-strung, ramshackle, broken, messy, really violent thing and it falls apart--it's barely patched together--and it falls apart quickly when it's disrupted. And there's no reason to think we wouldn't have more pandemics soon. And there's no reason to think we won't have other major disasters, both resulting from political stuff and from ecological stuff and from economic access. So, if we know that the things we live under are falling apart, it's not like. . . It's like it's not even like a revolution like some people topple something. It's like things are just cracking, toppling unevenly across space and time across regions. And how do we want to be thinking about our lives? I like that you brought up that "YOLO," sharpens your own priorities, like who do I want to be near? What do I want? Who do I want to be with? How do I? What kind of person...skills would I like to have when that comes up? This relates to the kind of activist-prepper pipeline thing. Like, learning how to facilitate a meeting with a lot of people who are different from each other is really useful. Like my beloved, beloved, dear friend lived through Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico. She lived in a really big apartment building that's part of a complex of two really big apartment buildings. And she was like, "The thing I really wish I'd known how to do would be to facilitate a great meeting for that many people--even if everyone didn't come." People were already supporting elders in the building, trying to help each other in every way possible, but she wished there had been big meetings to help facilitate that more. So those kinds of skills, knowing how to help people share stuff, knowing how to help deescalate conflict, knowing how to...what to do when intense men are trying to take things over, you know, and knowing how to organize around that. These are things that a lot of activists who are in any number of movements know how to do. So like knowing those skills and then also knowing it's going to actually be really...like it's going to be really local. There's going to be a level of just like, "Do people have stored water on my block? How much? What stored water do we have to share? If I get more people on my block to store more water now, then when the water stops flowing we'll have more water on the block." I think a lot about something you said in one of your episodes about how it's more important to have a tourniquet than a gun. Like just things that you can share. Partly, it's like, if more people are carrying tourniquets or Narcan or any of the things we know are about how I'm then a person who doesn't need that and I'm a person who could share it. So just that aspect of preparation, that's already what works. You know, we already live in a bunch of crises. Like, lots of our community members are in prison, people are living outside. Like, we live with so much crisis. We already kind of--if you're working on those things, you know a bit about what that's like, what you want to have in your bag, what kind of things would prepare you for the fight that's likely to break out or emotional crisis people are likely to be about to fall into or whatever. So I feel like that kind of thinking, it's like when we get to this level of awareness about the crises we live in and we're like, "It's not 2050. It's already happening/it's the next pandemic, which could be much a worse pandemic and start any day now. Or it's the next storm coming to where I live or fire or smoke," or whatever. Like when we accept that more, which is like this whole difficult process about accepting our own mortality, accepting that things change, accepting. . . ridding ourselves of like, nationalism that tells us the United States is forever and will always be like this, you know, all these illusions are like so deep in us, like when we do that, it just clarifies what this short, precious life is about. You know what I mean? It gives us a chance--and there's a lot of heartbreak. It's like, wow, I won't be with all the people I love who live all over the country or all over the world when this happens. I don't know when this is happening. I don't know how it's gonna unfold. There's so much powerlessness. And, what are the immediate things I want to do about appreciating my life right now and setting things up as to the extent that I can--I mean I can't prepare to prevent it--but I can be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna store some water," or "Yeah, I would rather live closer to this person," or whatever it is, you know? I feel like people deserve a chance to ask those questions of ourselves and then, politically, to stop doing tactics that are based on a lie, that things are going to stay this way forever or even for a while. Because that feels like. . . I'm like, I want to stop wasting our beloved, precious time, you know, on shit that's too. . . It's on a timeline that's not real. You know? **Margaret ** 22:45 I wonder if it's like. . .To me--I don't talk much about my romantic life on the podcast, but I'm polyamorous--and one of the things that distinguishes a partner versus a sweetie is that I make my life plans incorporating partners, you know? Not necessarily like, oh, we're gonna live together or whatever. But they're like, these are the people that I like, from a romantic point of view, and being like, I am going to make my decisions absolutely, including these people. It's like we need to date the apocalypse. We need to just accept that the apocalypse is our partner. Like, we need to make our decisions incorporating the uncertainty and. . . the uncertainty about what's to happen, and the likelihood that what is coming is very different than what is currently--or certainly than what was 10 years ago. I mean, even like. . . I don't know, talking to my friends who I've been friends with for 10-20 years, I'm like, we'll talk about 10 years ago and we'll be like, "That was a different world politically," right? It was just a completely fundamentally different world. And, you know, the future is going to be really different. And that is, you know.... For me, the biggest decision I made was around preparedness--and everyone has a different relationship with their families--I moved a lot closer to my family. I moved within one tank of gas to my family and back. And, you know, that is the single biggest step that I took in terms of my preparedness, and you know, that's far more important to me than the, probably, about nine months' worth of food, my basement. But, you know, I live in the mountains and have a lot of storage. **Dean ** 24:41 Yeah, I think there's a piece of this about getting to divest. Like, I mean, so much of what liberalism is and what nationalism is, is it tells us that if you're mad about what's happening, where you live, you should appeal to the people who govern you and you should further invest in their system and show up and participate in it. And maybe you should even run for office. It's all about going towards, because that thing is going to deliver you what you want or not depending on how well you appeal to it. And when we're like "That thing," you know, "first of all is rotten and is never going to deliver us anything but war and destruction and that's what it was made for. That's what it does." But also, like, even those of us who know that, even though those were like, "Yeah, I hate the United States. I'm not trying to improve it or fix it or make it into a wonderful.... Even those, we still, you know, we're still very invested. Like, you know, I have a really mainstream job or there's people I know, who want to own a home, all these things that we've been told will make us safe, it turns out they won't? It turns out already they didn't and haven't for lots of people for lots of reasons for lots of times, you know? See 2008 crash, see, you know, hurricanes did taking out all-Black property and displace Black people. All the things. All the uneven, horrible, terrible violences of Capitalism and crisis. But it's really a dead end. You know, when people ask me all the time about going to grad school and I'm like, "I don't know, do you want to spend the last--possibly the last-- few years of your life doing that? Will you enjoy it? Like will it let you do art and activism and whatever else you want or will it be a slog that you're just putting in this time because you think in 10 years, you'll have the job you want? In which case, no. Like for me that kind of invitation to divest from things that I don't really want or believe in any way or to really be like, ?Why am I saying yes to this? Why am I saying no to that?" is one of the liberating aspects of accepting how dire things are that I want people to get to have. Because it's about letting go of stuff that doesn't work and that was never going to work, but like really, really, really. . . Like the Green New Deal. Like if I dedicate my life to passing and Green New Deal and Medicare for all in this political climate with this time, like, it's not gonna happen, you know? And even I think many people who are liberals know that, but it's like, what would happen? Like, do I really? Do I want to produce my own abortion drugs and hormones for my community out of my basement? Do I want to. . . Like, what do I want to do that is immediate support to people I love and care about instead of deferred, you know, wellness, "hopefully,"--if we can convince elites? **Margaret ** 27:19 I like that idea. And I'm going to think about that more. I really liked the perspective of just specifically divesting, and I even. . . It's one of the things I sometimes try to convince the liberals in my life is that the way that incremental change happens isn't from people asking for incremental change, it happens when you're like, "Oh, we don't need you anymore. We've created our own thing," then the State is like, "Shit, shit, shit. No, we can do it too. We promise!" You know? And make them rush to catch up with us. And to compare it to something with my own life, when I when people ask for professional advice in a creative field, one of the reasons I like pushing DIY as a good intro--and even as someone who, you know, I do the show, which isn't quite DIY, it's collectively produced, but I'm one of the collective members, but started off DIY--and then I also have a corporate podcast, right, where, I get my salary from doing a podcast. And the way that you do things is you do things so well that the people who gatekeep look for you to invite you in, rather than going to them and begging for access. You declare that you're too cool to go to the club, and then the club asks you to come in, you know? And in order to do that, you have to genuinely be too cool for the club. But then sometimes when people give you salaries, it's fine and you can use it to fill your basement with food and give it to people and shit. And I think about that even with the Green New Deal stuff, it's like, well, that's not going to happen--probably at all--but it would need to be them co-opting a successfully organized wide-scale, decentralized movement, you know? **Dean ** 29:11 And the Green New Deal is like the prior New Deal, it's a deal to try to save Capitalism and extraction. It's very drastically inadequate for anything that would. . . I mean, so much of what's happened environmentally is not preventable at this point anyway, you know--in terms of what's already been set in motion--much less the idea that something. . . I mean, it's all based on the idea of maintaining a Capitalist job framework. I mean, it's just, it's really, really, really, really, really, really inadequate. And the United States is the world's biggest polluter ever and has. . . The US military is the most polluting thing ever for reasons. It's not just gonna be like, "Oh, you know what, those people those hippies were right, let's stop." You know what I mean? Like, the idea that our opponents are gonna just change their minds because we tell them enough. You know? It's just so. . . It's like, we've been told. . . And it's so like. . . We've just we've been given that message so relentlessly that if we're just loud enough, if there's just enough of us in the streets. And I think a lot of people saw Occupy and saw 2020 and see like, "Wow, this is so. . ." you know, Standing Rock, see these moments where people really, really show up and put everything on the line and are incredibly disruptive. And our opponents just right the ship and suggests that we don't live in a democracy--and we never have. They're not persuadable. Like, it's not going to happen through those kinds of frameworks. And yet, I think that the kind of like brainwashing or the fiction version of the Civil Rights Movement that we've been given is so powerful. Like people really are like, "If I go to a march then. . ." I guess one of my questions at this point in life, too, is how can we bring new people into our movement, because more more people are like unsatisfied, miserable, terrified for good reasons, wonderful mobilizable. How do we bring people in and have ways that we engage in action together that help people move towards a perspective that isn't liberal? So help people move away from love, just thinking they need to get their voice heard to like, "Oh, no, we actually have to materially create the things we want for each other." We have to directly attack our opponents' infrastructure. And we have to have solidarity with everybody else who's doing that instead of getting divided into good protesters and bad protestors, and all that stuff that you see happening, you know, every day. That to me, that question, like, what's the pedagogy. . . What's a pedagogical way of organizing that helps people move out of those assumptions, which are so powerful and are really in all of our heads. It's just a matter of degree. Like, I feel like it's a lifelong process of like trying to strip liberalism out of our hearts and minds, so to say. As they say. As liberals say.  **Margaret ** 31:55 I really liked that way of framing it. I think about how one of my friends always talks about the way to judge the success of actions--and I don't think that this is the only way. I think that sometimes, like "Did you accomplish your goals?" is a very good way. But I think that one of them is, "Does this tend to give the participants agency? Because I think that agency is--I mean, it's addictive--but it's in the same way that air and water are addictive, you know? The more you experience agency--and especially collectively produced agency--the more I think that people will tend to stay in the movement, even as their ability to express that agency, like even when the movement ebbs, right, people who learned. . . You know, there's this thing that I think about with 2020, and 2020 has been memory hold completely, but on some level, everyone in 2020 who had never before seen a cop car on fire or never before seen the police retreat, I remember really clearly the first time in my life I saw the police retreat, because it never seemed like it was a thing that could happen. I've been doing direct action protesting for like eight years before I saw that police retreat, because the way that US tactics tended to work in protest didn't tend to do things that made the police retreat. And that protest where I saw the police retreat, we did not win our strategic goals, right? But it's part of why I am still in this movement is because I can't forget that feeling. And so, yeah, I think that for we people are systematically stripped of agency, learning to invite people into space to collectively create agency is really important. But that said, I do think that actually--especially sort of anti-State leftism, which tends to be less structured, which I actually don't think is inherently a positive or negative thing about it--is that I think one of our biggest stumbling blocks is we're bad at bringing people in. **Dean ** 34:13 Yeah, the insularity of some of the more insurrectionary work is, I think that is exactly it. It's like yes, you can have your little cell that's going to go into an amazing sabotage action or an incredible, you know, deface something or, you know, make something about the more machinery of the prison system or something harder, but how do people join? How are people? And also how to take those steps from like, "Wait, I'm really mad at what's happening in Gaza," or  "I'm really pissed about what's happening with the environment," or "I'm really scared about how the police are," or whatever, to finding what's most available to find, which will often be organizations or groups that are doing a good job recruiting new people but maybe using not very bold tactics. How do we have those groups also be in better. . . You know, I was just reading Klee Benally's book and one of the things Klee talked about is de-siloing the above ground from the underground, like having there be more solidarity is something I've been very concerned about, especially since the recent indictment of the forest defenders and in Atlanta. How do we not have people be like, "Well, the ones who were just flyering are just good protesters, and the ones who, you know, did sabotage and lived in the forest are bad." How do we build such a strong solidarity muscle--which means we have to break ties with like the pacifism narrative--how to build the strong solidarity muscle so that people can get recruited into our movements wherever they get recruited, whatever interests them, whatever tactic they first stumble upon, and then can take bolder action and take more autonomous action, cause there's also kind of passivity in our culture. Like, wait for the experts to tell you. Wait for the people at the nonprofit to tell you. Wait for the group that organizes protests to tell you when to go home, instead of like, "What do me and my friends want to do? What do I want to do? Where it's my idea to go, go off and do something else that's potentially very disruptive to our opponents?" So how to have people get what you're calling agency, or what I might call a feeling of autonomous power and inventiveness and creativity and initiative that isn't just "I'm waiting to be called to come to the march once a year," or once a month, or whatever. But instead, like, "Yeah, I might go to that, and I also then met some people there, and they're going to do this wild thing, and I'm gonna do that," and then how good it feels the first few times you break the law with other people and don't get caught. Like having those joyful feelings--people talk about the joy of looting a lot and after 2020 there were a lot of great references to that--you know, those feelings of like, "Oh, my God, this entire system is fake. I can break the rules in here with others, and we can keep each other safe, maybe. And we can see that we don't have to abide by this rigid place we've been fixed," you know? All of that, I think does--like you were saying--it keeps people in the movement or it feeds us. Given how difficult. . . I mean, you know, it's not like anybody's doing something where they're like, "Yeah, this is totally working." So you need a lot of. . . You gotta get your morale from some kind of collaborative moments of pleasure and of disobedience that can like. . . You know, including hating our opponents and hating what they're doing to all life, you know? **Margaret ** 37:22 I really like the way that you talk about these things. I'm really. . . There's like, so much more I'm gonna like to keep thinking about as I go through this, but one of the things that makes me think of is, you know, what does it take to take ourselves seriously, right, as a political force? I think that there's this. . . Either, some people take themselves too seriously, but are not actually providing any real threat. Right? I would say that the sort of--don't get me wrong, I've worked for nonprofits before and I don't think nonprofits are actually inherently bad--but like the nonprofit, activisty, professional activism world, right, will often take themselves very seriously, but not present any fundamental threat or accomplish systemic change. And some of the people who actually do present a real threat, don't take themselves seriously. They're like, "Oh, we're just kids acting out," kind of attitude. You know, I mean, like, well you're 30, what are you doing? You know and they're like, "We're kids acting out," and like I'm like, okay, whatever you can, you can call yourself kids as long as you want. I remember one time I was hitchhiking when I was 26 and I was like, "Oh, yeah, we use the word 'kids' instead of like, the word 'punks.'" You know? It's like, "I'm gonna meet up with these other kids." And the woman who gave me a ride hitchhiking was like, "You're an adult." And I was really offended. I was like...I'm an adult, that's true. **Dean ** 38:36 I'm not a square. I'm not a square.  **Margaret ** 38:38 Exactly. And one of the things that I think about, I remember. . . Okay, there's two stories about it. One was I was I was in Greece 10 years ago or 12 years ago, shortly after a lot of the uprisings that were happening in Greece, and after that kid, Alex, I believe his name was was. . . a like 16 year old anarchists kid was killed by the police, and then half the nation, you know, rioted around it. And I remember talking to this older anarchist about it, and he was saying that there were people who did studies and they were saying that the average person in Greece basically believed that the police and the anarchists were equally legitimate social forces. Like not like each. . . I think some people were not even like they're both. . .they're all the same. We hate them both. But instead, people being like, "Oh, well, the anarchists, that's a perfectly legitimate thing that these people are trying to do, right, as a legitimate social force. And usually when people use the word "legitimacy" they mean squareness and operating within the system, and I'm not trying to use it that way. I haven't come up with a better word for this. But I think about that a lot. And then because of the history research I do, I, you know, spent a lot of time reading about the Easter Rising in the early Irish Revolutionary Movement. And, you know, I haven't gotten to read Klee Benally's book yet. I got to start it. Someone had a copy of it. But it was sold out for obvious reasons. Although, by the time you all are listening to this Klee Benally's book, which is--what's it called? Sorry.  **Dean ** 40:16 "No Spiritual Surrender"  **Margaret ** 40:17 "No Spiritual Surrender" should be back in print from Detritus books. And anyone who's listening, we talked about it before, but Klee Benally was a indigenous anarchist who recently died and had been doing movement work for a very long time. Might have actually hated the word "movement work," I'm not entirely certain. But, you know, the de-siloing of the above ground and the underground, I think that the more successful movements do that. And I think that, you know, the Easter Rising, one of the things that was really interesting about this thing in 1916, or whatever--you can listen to me talk about for literally, four hours if you want because it's a four part episode--but one of the things that happened with it, that I didn't realize, it gets presented most of the time in history as like, "Oh, well, there was a big. . . Everyone agreed that we should have this revolution." That is absolutely not the case. Absolutely the--I think it was called Redmond-ism, or something. There was like a guy and he was basically the liberal-centrist and vaguely wanted some a little bit of more freedom from England. And that was absolutely the political position of the average person in Ireland at that time. And then these crazy radicals, some of them nationalists and some of them socialists and some of them complicated other things, threw an uprising. And they threw that uprising, and it just fundamentally changed. . . That political position, that centrist position ceased to exist almost overnight. And I'm not suggesting that that is the way it will always work. But there is a way in which you say, "We are not embarrassed. . ." like sometimes you have to do things underground because you don't want to get caught, right? But instead of being like, "Oh, well, I know this is unpopular," instead being like "I'm doing this, and it should be popular, because that makes so much sense." You know, and I actually think that the Atlanta folks in the US are some of the people who have been doing the most work about doing above ground and underground work in a movement that is like. . . These are all the same movements. Sorry, that was a long rant. **Dean ** 42:24 I thought it was great. It made me think about how--and I really will listen to those episodes. I love that you're doing history. It made me think about how sometimes I feel tension--I'm going to be overly simplistic right now--but between the parts of. . . In all the movements I'm in, there's a part that's more nonprofitized, and where people, I think, don't know whether they're interested in taking over the State or not, but because they are not sure and I'm not thought about anti-State politics there, they tend to actually accidentally be statist or some of them are more explicitly really trying take over the State or believe in that fantasy. And so that set of people, when you when you have a belief like that shaping what you're going to do and you imagine yourself and you're like "We're going to run the FDA, or we're going to run. . ." you know, when you imagine the scale of the nation and then you think about your people trying to get it, even though you know your people have never had it and aren't anywhere near getting it, and maybe want to get rid of some parts of it altogether. Like maybe you want to get rid of the Border, get rid of the cops or something, that is not a non-humble framing. And it often includes a distrust of ordinary people and a sense that they still need to be managed. And those I think are like subtextual beliefs inside the work that is often happening at the more legitimized nonprofit side of our movements. And then more scrappy, you know, sometimes anarchist or less institutionalized parts of our movements are often much more humble. Like, could we stop one of these sweeps? Could we feed a hundred people in the park tonight? Could we. . . They're very like, it has less of a like, "We're going to take over and make a utopia out of this whole joint," which I think is a very unrealistic and also dangerous framework for a number of reasons, including to look at who else has tried that, you know? I think the idea of running other people in that massive way is just very dangerous and leads to different kinds of authoritarianism, honestly. But also, I think, for me, what happens when I really take into account the crises we're living in and that are mounting and the unknown intense kinds of collapse that are coming soon, it really points me to that kind of humility. Like what's doable here and now with what's going on now? And what would I do if that were my focus? And it really leads to things like direct attacks, like sabotaging, like direct attacks on our opponents, like making their jobs harder. It leads to immediate mutual aid efforts to support people's well being and preparation for things we know are about to happen. Like, what would make this less dangerous when this thing is about to happen? Like, that's the stuff. Yes, it makes sense to just have masks now because more pandemics are coming, and the current one is so bad. You know, it makes sense to have certain things around or it makes sense to build certain skills and not to be overwhelmed. I think some people get really overwhelmed by the idea of, "Oh my God, I'm such a turn my whole life around, become a hunter, become someone who can farm tons of food," I know that's not gonna happen for me. I'm not going to become an expert farmer and hunter. I'm not going to have the skills of somebody from the 1800s in the next few years. It's not what I built my life to do. My body wouldn't be good at it. But what is within reach that's. . . How does it reorient me towards these very humble things that are both humble and that have a little more faith in other people? Like a little more faith that if we stored more water on my block--I don't need everyone on my block to become interested in this--but if a few more people in my neighborhood were interested in this, we could store some more water. And if it feels. . . I just need to find some people who are interested. I don't need to have every single person be interested. And I don't need to convince everyone this is happening. But I also shouldn't just do it by myself. Like somewhere in the middle. And this relates also to the pipeline question, like why are people who've been involved in organizing and activism often good at prep? One of the things is like--as I think your podcast does a great job showing--prep should be collective and not individualist. It shouldn't be about "How can I have the biggest gun to protect my horde?" And instead, it's like, how do I care about people even if I don't like them. And that is something that our movements are about. It's like, how do I care about people, even if they're annoying, even if they don't speak all the same kinds of terms, even if they don't have my exact identities? How do I care about people because they're around me and they're thirsty? And that skill, that's also going to be about "Who do I want to be in the end times?" Like, I'm living through a very, very hard time in human history, what kind of person do I want to be? I hope I'm generous. I hope I'm thoughtful. I hope I am oriented towards attacking things that hurt life and caring for life. And it's not easy to do those things in this society. And so what would I want to change about what I've learned and what I know how to do to get a little closer to that. I'm going to die either way. Like we're all gonna die even if we're totally wrong and there's no collapse and everything's great. We're all going to. So these questions aren't bad to ask even if things turn out totally fine.  **Margaret ** 47:28 No, I, I really liked this, this way of framing it. And it is. . . One of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately is I've been thinking about my own cynicism. And I don't feel like. . . I feel like misanthropy is not the right word, because everyone I know who's like a misanthrope is kind of an asshole about it. You know? But it's like, once you realize that everyone is disappointing, you no longer have to judge the disappointing people as much, because then you realize that you're disappointing, right? You know? And I'm like, "Oh, everyone kind of sucks." And then you're like, "That includes me. I'm not better than everyone else. So now I should look after these people who kind of suck." And like, all of a sudden, I no longer have this thing where I'm like, oh, queers or anarchists or queer anarchists are the enlightened people and all the cis people are terrible and all the straight people are terrible. And I'm like, look, there are systems that privilege people of certain identities over certain other identities, right? But there's nothing about being a lady who likes other ladies that makes me a better person than someone else, you know? And like, and so then I'm like, okay, well now I care about everyone because I dislike everybody. This is not what I actually advocate for other people to do. But this is kind of where I'm at a little bit personally. I really like this idea of pointing out how we care about people that we don't necessarily like? And this is the thing that's always felt strongly about communities. Community is the people who you're doing a thing with or like to live near or, you know, whatever, rather than the people where you all agree about the current way to define the following word. And that said, I mean, there's people who are like, "Well I might live near them, but they're a racist who wants to hurt my friends." You know? But then again, I've also seen people--I know it's controversial--but I've seen the people do the work of be like, "Hey, white person to white person, don't be such a fucking racist. What the fuck is wrong with you?" And I've seen that work. Or, I've been part of a queer land project in a rural area where the neighbor starts off a little bit like, "What? What's a pronoun?" you know? And then it's like, "I don't really get it, but you can use my tractor."  And I'm like, "Great!" Now we're on the same side in terms of certain important decisions, like should we all starve to death when the food system collapses.  **Dean ** 50:00 And safety can include--I think we see this a lot with people who've been working around domestic violence and intimate violence in our communities--where you're like, "Yeah, there's a guy who lives down the block and he has a lot of guns and he's really, really reactive and he's someone we all need to be aware of." It's like not everyone is gonna move towards us. And so preparedness can also be about how we are currently supporting anybody who's living with him? And how are we preparing to support us all in regard to him if that need be? Like that kind of just frankness, you know? Like just being clear with ourselves about. . . But that's different. I do think that one of the downsides of social media has been--for me--like doing activism for many years before it started and then how it exists now, because it gives us a feeling that we could reach anyone--which of course, isn't true. Most of us just reach people that are in our own little silos or a lot of nobody looks at it at all. It's like there's a fantasy that I could find my real people and I could have a real set of people who really understand me as opposed to just these jokers I've been stuck with on this block or in this school or in this job or whatever and actually who we are stuck with. That fantasy that we have. . . It's true that it's beautiful when we find people to share ideas with and that some of that happens over the internet, and I love all that. But ultimately, nobody gets to live in a little world of people who perfectly understand them. And when you think you've found those people and then you actually hang out with them, it always ends up that there's actually tons of still intragroup differences and struggles and patterns. And so moving away from hoping to find the right people or climb to the right space where people will be truly radical--not that we don't stop looking for our people everywhere--but also just be like, "Well, who's here now? And what would it be like to learn how to care for those people? And also protect myself from them--to the extent that I need to.  And also try to make them more into what I want by showing them the cool ideas and hoping they come along?" You know, all of that, but not being in a fantasy that if I could just get these other people, then I would be happy. Like, that's Capitalism just telling us to claim everything, you know? **Margaret ** 52:00 I like that sometimes you'll say the thing and I'm like, "No, I just agree with you. That makes a lot of sense. And I got to think about that." And like, I like it. Okay, I've got kind of a final question, I think. . .  **Bursts ** 52:15 [Interrupting] But oh dear listeners, it was far from her last question. Stay tuned for the hair-raising conclusion of Mutual Aid with Dean Spade next week, on Live Like the World is Dying. **Margaret ** 52:40 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, you should tell people about it. And all of the things that I always tell you to do, like hack the algorithms by leaving me. . . I hate anything that I say that involves me making that voice. I'm terribly sorry. I will never do it again. However, leaving reviews does tell machines to tell other people's machines to listen to this. And that has some positive impact on the world that is falling apart. And I need to tell you that that's what I do all day, is I tell you about the world falling apart. But you can support us as we try to alleviate it. We are saving the world, and if you don't support us, it is your fault when people will die. That's what I'm trying to say. That's "not" what I'm trying to say. Put your money towards whatever you think is best. If what you think is best is putting it towards Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness so we can continue to produce this podcast, pay for our audio editor, pay a transcriptionist, and one day pay the hosts, then you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. That supports all of our shows and all of our different projects. And in particular, we want to thank Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patolli, Eric, Buck, Julia, Catgut Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, anonymous, Funder, Janice & Odell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David. Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Mic Aiah, and Hoss the Dog. Alright. That's it. I'm done recording. I'm gonna go play with my dog and I hope that you can do whatever makes you happy between now and the end of all things which might be a long time from now. Maybe. Talk to you soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Colin talks to Brooke about how to asses damage to structures after disasters, what you can do when you're stuck in a building after a disaster, and ways to make your situation easier and safer. Guest Info Colin (he/him) is a carpenter, industrial electrician, and backpacker. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Colin on Structural Triage After a Disaster **Brooke ** 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for it feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today I'll be talking with Colin, an experienced construction and trade worker, about how to prepare for and perform structural triage after disasters. But first we'd like to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle from one of the other podcasts on the network. Doo doo doo, doo doo. **Brooke ** 00:48 And we're back. Colin, thank you for joining us today to talk about structural triage after disasters. Would you introduce yourself? Let us know your pronouns, where you're from if you want, maybe some of your background in the construction industry. **Colin ** 01:19 Yeah, I'm Colin, he/him. Lived in around Western Pennsylvania pretty much my entire life—mostly in the Pittsburgh area. I picked up carpentry right after college just as a way to earn some money. Been in and out that for a while. I worked as an industrial electrician in the power industry for about seven years, and then decided I'd had enough of that and went back to doing carpentry. **Brooke ** 02:10 Okay, so is your—is your background in those trades the reason that you're interested in this topic, or was there something else that sparked you or made you kind of get into learning about it? **Colin ** 02:23 Actually, the impetus for this was a little over—actually, seems like ages ago, but actually less than a year ago, a friend had an apartment fire right after Christmas last year. And it's still that big cold snap. And fortunately, we managed to get them recovered from that, but it was only due to the fairly heroic efforts of a lot of friends. And after that I started thinking about, you know, like, what are the ways that, you know, if you don't have people looking out for you and willing to come bail you out, what can you do if you're stuck in a damaged building for a few days while you're waiting for utilities to come back online, first responders to work through a backlog? Just, how can you make things easier in the immediate few days after disaster? **Brooke ** 03:14 Nice. So is this something that you then have you had to put into practice, or other people around you have put into practice? Or are we mostly theoretical at this point and haven't tested all these things—not that we don't trust your experience here. **Colin ** 03:31 Yeah, no, I have done some of these things more in the context of camping and backpacking, just like, there are things you can do that will make the situation easier and safer. Also, a lot of my background in working in power plants involved constant safety trainings about how do you do things safely? What do you have to look out for? What are, you know, things that you just need to be aware of when you're in dangerous situations? And I'm continually surprised at how many of those applied to everyday life, and how much of that stuff we just don't have to think about when we're living in a house that has already been designed to be safe. But when you have a disaster, obviously things break. And suddenly, things that are—things that normally have the engineering and safety built into them no longer work the way they're supposed to, and suddenly, you have to take care of all of that on your own. It's not that hard to do, or even that expensive. You just have to do the planning and preparation before it happens. Because once you find yourself in that situation, it's too late. **Brooke ** 04:46 Yeah, that makes sense. And we're gonna get into those details in a second. But for the listener, I just wanted to share that Colin had reached out to us with this really great list of different things we could explore on this topic. And as I said to him, the the part that stood out most to me was he was talking about how to shelter in place in a compromised building and how to do structural triage and first aid that can make the eventual recovery easier. So we may get into a lot more than that today, we may have a second episode at some point to talk about other things because Colin has a lot of great info to share. But that was the part that really struck me and the areas that I wanted to focus on. And so right before we get into the details, another question I wanted to ask you was, how broadly is this applicable? Like, you know, there's all kinds of different disaster situations, right? We've got floods, fires, earthquakes, tornadoes, unnatural disasters. Do you have different tips for different scenarios that we're going to talk about, or is a lot of this like works across multiple possibilities? **Colin ** 05:50 It's some of both. A lot of the things you need to be concerned with sheltering in place, or just being aware of what are the things that change when systems go offline. So when you don't have power anymore and you're relying on batteries or a generator, or you lose your gas, now, suddenly, you're relying on kerosene heaters or lamps. All of these things change how you have to think about your safety in a house. Obviously, people have been living with fireplaces and wood stoves and oil lamps for a very, very long time. It's not that hard to do. But if you're used to being able to flip a switch and have the lights come on, you're going to have to make some changes. And if you don't do those things, you can cause yourself serious problems. **Brooke ** 06:38 Okay, so let's talk about the first part of that where work. Let's say we're in a situation where we've just had a disaster, we're in a compromised building—whether it be like—I guess mostly we're talking about homes, or maybe your apartment complex too, not necessarily, like, work structures. So let's say we're in that in that situation, we're in this compromised building right after a disaster, what's one of the first things that we need to do? **Colin ** 07:01 So the very first thing is always keep yourself safe, because there's no disaster that you can't make worse by getting injured. And this is especially true— **Brooke ** 07:12 [Laughing] That's a good line, yeah! **Colin ** 07:12 That's especially true when you have, you know, something like the ERCOT disaster down in Texas and 2021, and you have an entire city that is struggling, and your first responders are overwhelmed. **Brooke ** 07:28 Was that when they lost power? **Colin ** 07:30 Yeah, they lost power for I want to say a week or two? I don't think it was continuous. I think it went off, and then it came back on, and then it went off again. The estimated death toll from that was like somewhere between 250 and 700 people, which is—that's like 10 times the number of people that die from an average hurricane season. And most of it was due to things like hyperthermia and carbon monoxide poisoning. Just because people were trying to stay warm and making bad decisions either because they didn't know any better, or they didn't have the tools they needed. Most of it could have been avoided. But obviously that was a terrible situation, and Texas is still recovering from that. So yeah, you've got to keep yourself safe. Couple parts of that. The easiest thing is the personal protective equipment side. Because that's just a matter of throwing a little bit of money at the problem, and it doesn't even take very much money. This is stuff like have worked gloves around so that you can protect your hands. Keep safety glasses around, because getting an eye injury will make life real bad and real tough right now. Earplugs. Disasters are often loud, and even if they're not, things are going to sound different. So having earplugs can help you sleep better. These are, like, not—things that do not cost a whole lot of money. But the most important thing is just to look at the situation and take a beat and figure out what has changed and what you need to do to stop the problem from getting worse. So the first part of this is anything that is broken or not working the way it is supposed to needs to be shut down. So like, do you need to get the power turned off? Do you need to get the gas turned off? Do you need to get the water turned off so your pipes don't freeze and burst? These are things that the average homeowner can do: turning off the power, as long as you have access to the circuit breaker, it's a matter of flipping a switch. Water should just be a matter of closing a valve. The problem is a lot of times the shutoff valves for water don't work the way they're supposed to because they haven't been maintained. I have run into that a few times. And— **Brooke ** 09:42 I know I know at my own house, shutting off the water is a much bigger deal than it should be. **Colin ** 09:48 Right and most of the time that's fine, until you have pipes that are actively spraying water, and suddenly it's not fine. Getting the gas shut off. Usually, again, just matter of going outside with a wrench and turning the valve at the meter. But you have to have the right size wrench and you have to know where that valve is. **Brooke ** 10:09 Okay, so here's a neat—sorry to interrupt you. But I've had—for a long time I've had—I don't know if this is good, so you tell me. I got a wrench that's like specifically for shutting off your gas, it's this bright red one, and you zip tie it next to your gas main. And then if there's a disaster, you should have to go cut the zip tie and use that wrench. **Colin ** 10:32 Yeah, that is a fantastic idea. **Brooke ** 10:34 Okay. **Colin ** 10:35 I would suggest maybe string or something that you can just yank to break it loose, because having zip tie on there that you have to cut, that's one more tool you have to find before you can get to the wrench. Zipties are fantastic because they are very secure. Sometimes so secure that you can't get them off. **Brooke ** 10:50 So I might have to replace the string once in a while, but string would be better. **Colin ** 10:53 Or, the meters normally magnetic, you can put it on a magnet, you can just have it— **Brooke ** 10:58 Oh, yeah! **Colin ** 10:59 —duct taped to the side of it. Something you can get off without tools. And it's always there. And then periodically, every six months, just check and make sure it's there. And, you know, a raccoon hasn't stolen it. But no, that's a fantastic idea. **Brooke ** 11:13 Okay, so that's a good planning ahead. But if you haven't planned ahead, then, you know trying to find a wrench is generally the tool you're going to need, right, to shut that off if you have gas? **Colin ** 11:22 Yeah yeah. Then if you live in an apartment building, usually you will have access to your electrical panel, but not always. You may not have access to the main water shut offs for your apartment. You can probably find out where in the building those are. You're not going to be able to tell if they're working the way they're supposed to before something happens. But have a plan for how to get into whatever room the shut offs are in. If you have to go through a door, this may mean keeping a sledge hammer or pry bar around so that you can get through to the shut offs in the case of an emergency. And yeah, your landlord is probably going to be unhappy and you may lose your security deposit, but it's better than having your apartment burn down. **Brooke ** 12:12 Yeah, seems like it. **Colin ** 12:13 Yeah. **Brooke ** 12:14 Okay, so step one is, like right after the disaster, donning some protective gear and then going around to shut off compromised utilities. **Colin ** 12:24 Right, anything's not working, get it turned off so that the situation stops getting worse. Once everything's shut down, then you can take your time and figure out how to make things livable until systems start to come back online. The other thing to do with preparation is make sure all your smoke alarms are working, and make sure you have fire extinguishers. Because, again, fire when you don't have first responders available is very, very bad. So hopefully everyone has these things to begin with. But if you don't, I highly recommend going out and getting some as soon as possible. **Brooke ** 13:01 Okay. **Colin ** 13:02 So you now have everything turned off, you have your fire extinguishers, you've dealt with the immediate problem. Now you're faced with, how do I make the structure minimally safe for the next few days? If you have broken windows, damaged roof from storms, things like that. **Brooke ** 13:25 Okay, so it's assuming your residence is still some amount of livable and/or you just don't have anywhere else to go and you kind of have to stay. **Colin ** 13:35 Yeah, as long as you have a roof and three walls, you're gonna be fine most of the time. **Brooke ** 13:44 What about—what about the fourth wall? Why don't we get a fourth wall here, Collin? **Colin ** 13:48 I mean, four walls is great. Three walls is enough to keep the roof up. **Brooke ** 13:55 That's a really good point though, no, genuinely. **Colin ** 13:58 If a tree comes through the front of your house, you can still deal with that. It's gonna suck, but it's not the end of the world. And the things that you need to make the situation better than it would be? Not that complicated. It basically boils down a lot of times to having some plastic sheeting or tarps and a staple gun. If you can get something over your openings to keep the wind and the water from entering the house, that's going to buy you a lot of time. If you've ever been driving through, you know, the back roads and rural counties and you see the houses that have the plastic tarps over their roofs that have obviously been there for many years, those houses are still functional. They're still standing. A lot of times people are still living quite comfortably inside those houses. Doesn't look very good, but it's gonna work for a while. And oftentimes, that's all you need. **Brooke ** 14:50 Yeah, that's one of the reasons you see tarps up there for so long is that they're doing what they need to do and they don't need to do more than that. For folks that don't have that kind of stuff sitting around, I imagined that maybe grabbing some sheets or blankets or something and throwing those over the opening would still be better than just leaving it open? **Colin ** 15:10 Yeah, even the bed sheet over the window is going to stop rain from blowing in and my dogs barking in the background. I apologize. **Brooke ** 15:19 That's okay. We are a puppy-friendly podcast. **Colin ** 15:25 A staple gun is something that you should definitely own if you don't, because that's the easiest and fastest way of getting any kind of sheet, whether it's cloth, or a tarp, or trash bags with plastic sheeting attached to walls really fast. A staple gun will set you back maybe $20 tops, and makes life a whole lot easier when it comes to covering openings. If you don't, if you don't have that, duct tape will also work. However, it doesn't work as well as you would expect, especially when the weather is cold or if surfaces are wet. **Brooke ** 16:01 Sure. Yeah. Thumb tacks if you have those sitting around. **Colin ** 16:06 Thumb tacks. Hammer and nails. **Brooke ** 16:08 Yeah. **Colin ** 16:09 Anything to do to secure a sheet. At that point, you're not really worried about damaging the house because the damage has already been done, and fixing a few nail holes is peanuts compared to trying to fix, you know, several hundred gallons of water that have been blown in by high winds. **Brooke ** 16:25 Okay, so we close our openings to protect from water, from cold temperatures, probably from other elements too, right, if—blocking the sun? **Colin ** 16:36 Yeah, sun. If you're in a hot area—this is a totally different topic on its own. But trying to keep the sun out of your house, if you're in a hot situation is just as important as trying to keep the heat inside the house if you're in a cold situation. If you lose power and you're relying on air conditioning to keep your house livable, the best thing you can do is get all of your windows covered as soon as you possibly can. Because solar gain through glass will drive up the interior temperature really quickly. Doesn't matter what you have. Again, plastic bags will work. Anything, just block the amount of light that's coming through the glass. Cardboard, sheets, blinds, you name it? **Brooke ** 17:24 All right. So we've covered up our holes. What do we need to do next? **Colin ** 17:30 Covered up the holes. Things are shut down, turned off. Now you have to start worrying about how am I going to actually get back to living inside this damaged structure for as long as I need to until help can arrive and start doing major repairs that need to happen? And a couple of things you want to look at, the—obviously we're coming up on winter. So the first thing to talk about is how do you stay warm? Hopefully you have blankets and sleeping bags and things that will keep you warm overnight. But you can also look at how you can take a single room and the house and make that one room more pleasant for the duration. So like, if you are struggling to keep your house warm because either you've totally lost power or your furnace can't keep up with the temperatures, shut everything down except for one room—preferably a room that has water and power in it. So you have all of your basic necessities in one spot. If you have a bathroom basement—or a bathroom in the basement is ideal because it's usually going to be interior walls, you've got water, you've got power, and if you throw, you know, a pad down the floor you can even sleep in there. You've got all your necessities in one spot. **Brooke ** 18:56 Now are basements fairly safe places in the face of most natural disasters? Are there times when you wouldn't want to hang out in the basement? **Colin ** 19:03 It depends on the disaster. **Brooke ** 19:04 Okay. **Colin ** 19:06 Obviously if you're dealing with a flood, the basements not where you want to be. **Brooke ** 19:10 [Laughs] Sure. What about if there's been fire damage to like the upstairs of your house? **Colin ** 19:20 That depends on how stable the structure is. If there's fire damage, usually you don't want to be directly over or directly under the damaged section. **Brooke ** 19:31 Hm. Okay. **Colin ** 19:32 So that if it collapses, it doesn't land on you and you don't go through the floor. **Brooke ** 19:37 Okay. Makes sense. **Colin ** 19:38 So fire—like talking about a fire damaged structure is probably beyond the scope of what I'm qualified to do, and beyond the scope of most of the people listening to the podcast because it requires you to be able to look at the damaged structural members and evaluate, you know, how compromised are these? Is this floor burned but otherwise stable, or is this going to collapse in the next five minutes? And that's a skill set entirely on its own. **Brooke ** 20:11 That's a good point. **Colin ** 20:12 If something looks burned and unsafe, just don't go near it. **Brooke ** 20:18 Yeah, and of course, you know, burned structures and objects can be very carcinogenic too. **Colin ** 20:26 That's also true. **Brooke ** 20:27 They can really impact your health. So that's a really good point that a lot of this maybe is really not applicable to the situation of having been in a fire. **Colin ** 20:35 Now, that said, if you've lost half of your house to fire, and you have a few rooms that are still relatively untouched on one side of the house, and you can seal off the burned section of the house, again, using plastic, just so you don't have the smell of the burned material getting into the living area as much as possible, you're still better off inside the house in that situation overall, if you don't have anywhere else to go, then you are trying to, say, camp out in the backyard. Because solid walls and a solid roof offer you more protection and better insulation, even when they're damaged. **Brooke ** 21:16 Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. If you have a really bad kitchen fire and lose your kitchen, that doesn't mean you have to move out of the whole house necessarily. Okay. **Colin ** 21:24 Correct. Yeah. And obviously, the best thing to do is leave and go someplace else if you can. But this is: your stocking place because the roads are impassable, or you literally have nowhere else to go. **Brooke ** 21:37 Yeah. Okay. All right. So moving into the basement, a good idea if you can, but in general is secluding yourself in part of the house. And to throw in a personal anecdote, we had this ice storm here in Kalapuya territory in Oregon—it was almost three years ago now. And most of the town lost power. And it was one, two, three days, a week, seven days, ten days for some folks—long time. And, I kind of without knowing any of this, just sort of instinctively moved us into the living room where a fireplace was because we had lost power and we lost it for a week. And we all just camped out, you know, slept, ate, played in the living room, because the only source of heat was the fireplace. So that's what we gravitated to. Anyway. **Colin ** 22:27 Yeah. And if you have a fireplace, if you have a room that's already set up for that kind of thing, like a living room, that's fantastic. I mean, there's no reason to hide out in the bathroom, if you have a place with a working fireplace. Yeah, good, go for the fireplace room. **Brooke ** 22:42 Yeah. On the downside, we had to pass into the, you know, 40 degree, 30 degree weather in the rest of the house to get to the bathroom. One in the back of the house. But, you know, for everything else, we were cozied up and warm in our one little room. Which, you know, we drove each other crazy. I will say that too being trapped in the one room together. But it was the only place that we be worn for that week. **Colin ** 23:06 Yeah, like having just a contained place that you can keep as warm and comfortable or as cool and comfortable as possible is your best option. Don't worry about trying to keep your entire house up to temperature, whether that be warm or cold. Because that takes a lot of energy to do and it's just probably not gonna be possible in most situations. **Brooke ** 23:28 Okay, here's a scenario question for you: Let's say same set of circumstances, like, that I went through, but something crashed through my big living room window, and we have to tarp over it. Is it? Is it? Is it better? Like, if I have to stay in my house at that point, is it better to still be in the living room with the fire in the tarped up window, or should I try and move to a different room and figure out some other heating source? **Colin ** 23:54 I would probably still stay in the living room. If your concern is keeping yourself warm and you have a fireplace, that's going to be your best option. **Brooke ** 24:06 Okay. **Colin ** 24:06 The issue of the window being broken and the tarp—the one problem with tarps is in high winds, they tend to flap a lot and they're just kind of annoying. The easy solution to that is back it up with cardboard. Cardboard does not like to get wet, but as long as it stays dry, it's a fairly good insulator and it's solid. And it's cheap. You can—everybody has a pile of cardboard boxes and their front hall from Amazon waiting to go out in the recycling. So take some of those boxes— **Brooke ** 24:37 I'm just gonna close this door behind me... **Colin ** 24:41 Take some of these boxes, break them down, put a few layers of cardboard on the inside just as a backup to the tarp so that your plastic is keeping the water out, but your cardboard is blocking more of the wind and keeping the plastic from flapping quite so much. **Brooke ** 24:57 Okay got it. So staying close to that the best heat source is still the way to go. **Colin ** 25:03 Yeah, it's always gonna be a judgment call as to what that is. But if you have a fire, and you are comfortable using it, and you have a good wood supply, that's almost always going to be your best bet. **Brooke ** 25:16 Okay? Makes sense. All right, so let's see, where are we even at not in our to do list here? **Colin ** 25:24 Okay, so we have a warm place to stay. And, assuming you have a fireplace, we've got that taken care of. The trickier situation is when you lose power and suddenly you'd have no heat at all. And even if you're relying—if you use natural gas for your heat, pretty much every furnace these days has an electric blower unless you have one of the, like, direct vent wall mounted furnace units that are basically just a gas flame that's passively heating. But if you're using forced air, it's using gas for the heat source, but you need electricity to move that warm air through the house. So if you lose your electricity, you lose your heat, even though you still have a fuel source. And that's something that a lot of people don't think about, especially in winter, they're like, oh, it's not a problem. If you lose electricity, big deal, I have gas. Well, that's not going to help you. **Brooke ** 26:25 That was my circumstance. Gas furnace, but needed the electricity and we didn't have that. **Colin ** 26:30 Yeah. So if you can get yourself down to a fairly small room, a bathroom, a small bedroom, even a large walk-,in closet, it doesn't take a whole lot of energy to keep one of those spaces warm. You can get the small, portable, like, propane heaters, little buddy heaters. They don't cost a whole lot, but then you have the issue of combustion in a confined space, which is a good way to end up with carbon monoxide poisoning or asphyxiation or, yeah. It can be a very bad scene. So if you're going to do that, be sure you have a portable carbon dioxide alarm. Just go to Home Depot or wherever, pick up another one of the nine volt battery powered smoke and carbon monoxide alarms, and keep that in whatever space you're running that portable heater. It doesn't matter if you have smoke alarms and carbon monoxide heaters or detectors throughout the house. Those aren't going to help you if you have sealed yourself off from those alarms so that you can try to keep the space warm. **Brooke ** 26:41 Makes sense. **Colin ** 27:22 And actually, my recommendation, even more than one of the small portable heaters, is a kerosene lamp or propane lamp of some kind. A lot of the old ice fishers for heating their ice fishing huts in the winter just used Coleman lanterns. One of the propane Coleman lanterns will put out almost the same amount of heat as a 1500 watt electric space heater. **Brooke ** 28:11 Oh wow! **Colin ** 28:12 They are very, very warm. Now also, it's still combustion. So you have to be aware of that. And they do get very hot. So you need to have a place to hang it to keep it away from fabric and other things that can catch on fire. But they will make a room surprisingly warm on their own. And then that also gives you light source, which is another thing that you're going to need if your power is off. **Brooke ** 28:39 Now, what if—what if it's a reverse circumstance. You've lost power and it's very warm climate. You're in, you know, hot temperatures. Are you still trying to stay in one room? What tools do you have to get cold? **Colin ** 28:55 That is a much more difficult situation. There are some things you can do, but it's going to require more tools and more planning. If you've ever seen the giant black tubes coming out of pit toilets, usually like a national parks, what those are doing is pulling a draft on the underground part of the toilet by using a thermal chimney. That black tube gets hot in the sun and hot air rises, you're pulling the hot stinky air up from out of your bathroom, and pulling fresh air in. So you can do the exact same thing with a house by having some kind of large black chimney. You can do this out of pipe or even black cardboard if you live in a very dry area. But this is something you're going to have to know how to build and plan for in advance. It can be done, but it's probably going to be on—be beyond the scope of what most people can do in an emergency. So really, in the situation where hat is issue, the best thing you can do is stay out of the sun and try to move as little as possible. Outside if you can, like wherever you can get fresh air, any kind of breeze, air movement, is going to keep you cooler than sitting inside. **Brooke ** 30:24 Yeah. If you know how to make like a swamp cooler kind of thing—let's say your water, you can still get coolish water coming out and you've got—well I guess you need electricity for the fan. Damn. **Colin ** 30:36 You can use the swamp cooler, you can build a passive swamp cooler. Again, it relies on that thermal chimney to create the draft. But those do work, assuming that you're in an area that is dry enough that you have evaporation. I live in western Pennsylvania, and usually in the summer if it's hot enough to need air conditioning, it's also about 95% humidity and swamp coolers do not work. **Brooke ** 31:02 And I think they can even be dangerous, right? Making it—because they can make it too humid—unsafely humid? **Colin ** 31:09 Yes. **Brooke ** 31:12 Sorry, you're getting outside your realm. **Colin ** 31:17 No, no. So the swamp cooler, you know, for listeners who are not aware of what this is, it's a—basically the same thing as a wet rag that the moisture on the—in the cooler evaporates and evaporation requires energy. So you're pulling heat out of the air and using that to evaporate water. And what you end up with is air that is cooler than it was before, but also more humid. So obviously, before that can work, you need to have air that is dry enough that it can absorb some amount of moisture. If you already have close to as much moisture in the air as it can possibly handle, you're not going to change the temperature significantly by evaporation. **Brooke ** 32:03 Okay. Make sense. All right, so we we've gotten ourselves down to one room, we figured out a way to heat ourselves, and we're hunkered in and it's gonna be a few days that we're in this situation. So what now and what next? **Colin ** 32:22 So now you have to think about, you know, the basics of survival. You need food and water. Food, hopefully you have some stores around. If not, you know, at least in the United States, getting food is not that difficult most of the time, it may not be good. But you're probably not going to starve if you're in your house. **Brooke ** 32:52 Even if you're iced in and can't—can't literally get out of your house, you probably have something in your pantry, it might not be what you want to eat, but there is calories available. **Colin ** 33:02 Yeah. You have calories. They're maybe not the best calories, but their calories. Water is trickier. Hopefully, you have at least a little bit of a stockpile, but not always. And if you have lost your water supply, or if there is damage to the mains—like again, using Texas as an example. Once your water mains freeze and the pressure in those pipes drop, you start having issues with groundwater making its way into the water mains, and that results in a boil order. So it's entirely possible to be in a situation where your taps still work, water comes out, but you can't drink it. And now you're faced with a problem of, like, how do you make this water supply drinkable again? And if you have a small water filter like the Sawyer Mini, it's popular with a lot of backpackers, a LifeStraw, anything like that, those are great. If you don't have one of those, the reason it's called a boil order is because you can always boil the water. Again, assuming that you have a heat source with which you can get the water hot. If you have a gas stove, most of the time natural gas is not disrupted by natural disasters with the exception of earthquakes. But if you're relying on electricity, if you're cooking like a lot of people do and you lose electricity, now you're kind of out of luck. So you need to have some kind of way of boiling water. If you have that Coleman lantern or a kerosene lantern, a lot of those get hot enough that you actually can boil water in a small container over one of those lanterns. It's not ideal. My recommendation is actually just one of the old school Coleman propane two burner backpacking stoves. They are absolute workhorses, indestructible. My brother just inherited the one of my parents, which I think is pushing 50 years old and still works just fine. You cannot kill those things, and you can pick one up off eBay for somewhere between $20 and $50, depending on what kind of condition it's in. And the other great thing about propane is that it has an indefinite shelf life. So if you have one of those stoves sitting around and you have one of the green one pound cylinders of propane, that you inherited from your grandparents, plug that in. It doesn't matter if it is twice as old as you are, it's still going to work just fine. Same is not true of gasoline and a lot of the other fuels. They're hard to store, they smell, they have other issues. But propane is fantastic. So you can buy it, you can stash in your basement, you can forget about it, and it'll be there when you need it. **Brooke ** 36:01 Now a complicating factor to be aware of ahead of time, of course, is that you can have a big propane tank like you might use for your barbecue, and then you can have those little green ones. And they're not—they don't necessarily all hook up into the same canisters, you know, the camp stoves versus barbecues, right, so you might not have the right size of—like if you're—if you have a camp stove and you're like, I can hook my barbecue propane tank up to it, that's not going to work with what you normally have, right? **Colin ** 36:31 With what you normally have. There are adaptor hoses that are designed to do exactly that. And a lot of times if you have outdoor events, they will use those two burner stoves but they will hook them up to the barbecue tanks because the little one pound cylinders get expensive if you're relying on those for a large amount of propane. You also can't refill them like you can with a barbecue tanks. **Brooke ** 36:54 Right. So it's so frustrating. **Colin ** 36:55 Yeah. So if you have a bar—if you have a barbecue grill already, then, you know, there's your heat source. You have to go outside to use it, but you can put a pot of water on your barbeque grill and bring it to a boil, it'll work just fine. Or if you have one of the little two burner backpacking/camping stoves, they make the hoses to go from the barbecue tank to that kind of stove. And now you can bring your propane tank inside as you need. Again, under normal circumstances don't do this. But in a disaster you can. And run the propane inside. **Brooke ** 37:35 Check your venting, check your C02 levels... **Colin ** 37:38 Again, there's a very good reason that they tell you not to do this. And if you're cooking inside with a stove that has not been designed to do this, you need to have your fire extinguisher, you need to have your carbon monoxide alarm, and as soon as you're done with it, get that fuel back out of the house, because obviously propane is flammable. **Brooke ** 38:00 Alright, so we've got a way to get some water, hopefully, and to warm up some food or cook some food if we need to. So we've got those basic elements that we can survive and subsist for however long we're gonna be stuck in this compromised building in this disaster. **Colin ** 38:18 Yeah, so the next part is, don't get sick. This means how to have a way to keep yourself clean. [Everyone dissolves into a fit of giggles] Hot tip! Don't get sick. Life is better when you're not sick. **Brooke ** 38:21 [Laughing] Yes. **Colin ** 38:40 Keeping up with sanitation when you don't have running water, especially when you don't have hot running water, is hard. If you don't have water, you also probably don't have a functioning toilet anymore. And that's going to be a problem sooner than—real quick. Takes about 24 hours, possibly less, and suddenly it's unpleasant. So have a way of dealing with all that when you don't have running water. The easiest solution is a five gallon bucket and something for urine. You want to try to keep those things separate because you're in, you know, you can take it outside, you can dump it in the grass, it'll be fine. The same is not true of feces. You need to at the very least compost that. You can get fancy composting toilets that will set you back several thousand dollars. **Brooke ** 39:41 Yeah **Colin ** 39:42 They worked really well. They have fans and tumblers and everything else. But for the van that I use for camping, my solution is a five gallon bucket with a gasketed lid and plastic bag full of chopped straw, and it works just fine. It doesn't smell that great when you open it. But honestly, it's not terrible. As long as you keep the feces covered with a layer of either chopped straw or peat moss or something else that will absorb all the excess nitrogen is really what you're after. You're fine. **Brooke ** 40:21 A brief segue as we talk to Colin's husband/wife/romantic partner. How do they feel about the shit bucket? **Colin ** 40:30 Not a fan. On the other hand, given a choice between the shit bucket, and going outside, when it's pouring down rain in the middle of the winter, and we're camping? [Laughing] The bucket is better. It's not ideal, but when you need it, you're really glad that you have it. And it's something that you can keep around, it'll set—it'll cost you maybe $10, and throw it in the basement. Hopefully you never need it. But if you do, it's there, and it will get you out of a bad situation. And it doesn't require you to put a whole lot of thought or effort into dealing with it. And then once everything is back online, and you have trash collection, again, if nothing else, seal the bucket up, put it in the trash can, and let the whole thing go to the landfill. Composting it is great, that's what I do. But if you just don't want to deal with it, put the entire bucket in the trash. **Brooke ** 41:28 Or an even poor man's version of this, you can put a plastic bag in a trash can and put your business in there and then tie up your plastic bag, set it outside. And repeat, if you forgot to get a bucket ahead of time. **Colin ** 41:43 Yes, that also works just fine. The nice thing about the bucket is then you have a sealed lid so it keeps the odor inside, and you can keep it in the house where it's warm and dry. Because there's nothing worse than having to poop in the middle of the night when it is sleeping and five degrees outside. **Brooke ** 42:03 Yeah, that's pretty awful. **Colin ** 42:05 Food waste and trash are two other big things. Trash collection, we take for granted. But if you've ever had a couple bags of trash sitting in your garage for a week because you forgot to put them out on trash day, they get real unpleasant real fast. So again, if you're in a situation where you know you're going to have to be living with this stuff for an extended period of time, try to keep your food waste separate from your trash that doesn't stink. So plastic bags, solid stuff that will be dry and relatively odorless in one bag. Food waste, again, can go in a sealed bucket, or in a smaller bag, you can keep further away from the house. If you're familiar with Bokashi, I think that came up on one of the episodes about composting. It's not, it's not composting in and of itself, it's a bit more like fermenting—kind of like making sauerkraut, but with food scraps—and basically does the same thing. You just get a bucket with a sealed lid, put your food in there, let it sit and it will slowly ferment on its own. And it can take pretty much anything. Even things that normal compost can't. So it can handle small amounts of meat and protein, cooked food, things like that. We have a bucket of that just under our sink that all the food scraps go into. And it probably gets emptied maybe once every two weeks, so that we don't have to have any food going into the trash. And yeah, it's—it's funny, like I will occasionally go to people's houses now that are just using trash cans the way people do where everything goes in the trash can. And I walk into the kitchen. I'm like, why am I smelling, like, food waste? Like I smell rotten food. What's wrong? It's like oh, right, it's because you're putting in the trash can where it sits and rots. So if you can just keep those two things separate. It will make the situation a lot more pleasant. That's a great tip. And yeah, just, you know, as much as you can, wash your hands and do all the things you are supposed to do. Brush your teeth, floss, things like that nature. Just take care of yourself and try to keep yourself together for as long as you possibly can. The situation will improve if you can just avoid making it worse. Human body is amazingly tough. All you have to do is sit and wait and most situations disaster-wise will improve on their own because the pressure on first response yours and utilities will ease up and things will start to come back online, as long as you can make it through that first critical period. **Brooke ** 45:08 Okay, do you mind now if we shift to talking about structural triage and things that we do to our actual residences, dwellings, things to look out for and know in disasters, and sort of that aspect of it? **Colin ** 45:28 Yeah, definitely. Did you have anything in mind in particular, where you wanted to start, or? **Brooke ** 45:32 Well, we talked about, you know, turning things off, of course. And then closing up holes. There's lots of other things in the house that can get damaged, in, you know, different scenarios, earthquakes and tornadoes and floods. So I'm curious, like, if there are other structural indicators or things to look for, you know, that, you know, from sort of your construction perspective that, like, oh, that's a sign of this thing is unstable, that you might not know just as a normal person. **Colin ** 46:09 Yes, generally when you get into questions of structural stability, like is this house going to fall down? If you have any doubt, the best thing to do is vacate the structure. Because actually looking at structures from an engineering standpoint, and determining when something is safe and when it's not, is beyond the scope of most people, myself included. I know what structures are supposed to look like and I can tell you when something is damaged, but I can't necessarily tell you how close it is to falling down. But the big things to look for are just like, do you see cracks in the foundation that weren't there yesterday? **Brooke ** 46:54 Okay, **Colin ** 46:55 You're probably familiar with, with how your house looks. If you see something that looks unfamiliar. investigate further, as much as you possibly can. This is kind of the best advice that I can give. **Brooke ** 47:08 Okay, what about things like crack new cracks in the wall? Like, is that is the wall crack itself a sign? Or was that—would that be like, okay, now and go look at the foundation and see. **Colin ** 47:18 If you're talking about cracks in interior plaster walls, those are not necessarily an issue by themselves. Because buildings can have a fair amount of flex to them before they fall down. Like you look at the number of houses that have an alarming lean to them and have been standing for two hundred years. Like, structures are remarkably resilient until they're not. **Brooke ** 47:45 Okay. **Colin ** 47:45 But if you have any doubt, the best thing is, get yourself out of the structure. **Brooke ** 47:50 Okay. I guess I'm also thinking about it from, like, the opposite perspective of something you might see and worry about and think you need to leave, but then actually it's okay and you could stay. So that's, you know, like the wall cracks, that might not actually be a big issue if you've suddenly had a crack on the wall. **Colin ** 48:10 Yeah, so the best thing you can do is try to get yourself into part of the house where you have as little as possible above you and as little as possible below you. So if you have a three story house, you don't necessarily want to be on that second floor for any reason. Because that's kind of the worst of both worlds, because you could go through the floor or the roof could come down on you. The best thing you can do, again, is get yourself into a small space where the only thing above you is the roof and maybe some insulation, and the only thing below you is concrete slab. Still not a guarantee that you're safe. **Brooke ** 48:54 Sure, yeah. **Colin ** 48:55 But you're gonna be better off there than in a multistory structure. **Brooke ** 48:59 Right. Yeah. We talked about how, you know, things might come through the windows or the walls, but as long as you've got your three walls in your roof, you're okay. What if you have four walls and a hole in the roof? Like things come through the roof. **Colin ** 49:13 Yeah, if you have a damaged roof, the best thing to do is get up on the roof and patch it from the outside. But that's not always possible. Especially if you have a multistory house and you don't have an extension ladder that can get you up to the roof, which is true for a lot of people. So then you're stuck with, how do I deal with this hole in my roof from the inside? Sometimes, assuming you have access to the attic, you can get into the attic and if you have, you know, a gaping hole where say a meteor came through your roof and punched a big hole in it. [Laughing] You can feed things in from the outside and then pull them back down against the roof. So you can build your patch and feed it through and pieces. Reach up from the inside, lay it down on the outside. And it's not gonna be a perfect seal, but it will keep at least some of the water and weather from getting into the house. Usually when you have that big of a hole, if you can't patch it from the outside, things are going to end up leaking and you're gonna be faced with situation where you have to try to catch the water once it comes into the house and get it back outside the house where it belongs. Again, the key for this is a staple gun, and some plastic sheet. So just, if you can hang plastic underneath the area that is leaking, or tarp to catch the drips, and then divert that water to a collection point, whether that is a bucket if it's a very slow leak, or a improvised funnel if it's a faster leak. It's not hard to make a funnel, if you have a garden hose and a two liter bottle, the garden hose thread is close enough to the spread on two liter bottles, that you can literally just screw the bottle onto the garden hose. And if you cut at an angle, cut the bottle at an angle, you can make something that is big enough that you can make a channel in your tarp, they will direct that into your two liter bottle funnel into your garden hose which you can then, you know, run down out of your attic and out of window. **Brooke ** 51:35 That's really cool, I might need to do something like that—not for disaster reasons, but just for gardening stuff this summer. **Colin ** 51:44 The two liter bottle to the hose connection will probably leak a little bit. **Brooke ** 51:49 Shhhhhh, kill my dreams. **Colin ** 51:51 Duct tape will fix that. Or if you have any of that self-fusing silicone tape they sell for emergency plumbing repairs, that works too. But honestly, as long as the water that's flowing through the bottle and into the hose is not under any pressure, the leak is probably going to be slow enough that it's not gonna be an issue. **Brooke ** 52:14 So roof damage is not necessarily something to run away from. **Colin ** 52:19 Roof damage is not the end of the world. It's bad, especially if you can't get up on the roof to fix it. But there are things you can do to keep it from totally destroying the house, the first thing to do is just figure out how you're going to keep the water from getting in. And if you can't do that, figure out how you're gonna get the water that's inside the house, back outside the house. **Brooke ** 52:44 And is that one of the biggest risks in the in any kind of natural disasters is water damage? **Colin ** 52:49 Water Damage is the hardest and the most insidious, because once water gets into the house and things get wet, now you have issues of mold to deal with. Once you have mold that can render a structure uninhabitable in a matter of days. As long as things are dry, they can last a very, very long time. But once they get wet, you're in trouble. **Brooke ** 53:15 Okay, what about the opposite side? Fire damage. We talked about that a little bit. But you know, let's say you had a kitchen fire destroyed the kitchen. Is there anything you can do in the aftermath of a fire that's going to do anything to help you save structures or objects and make the recovery easier? **Colin ** 53:36 Assuming that the fire was put out with water, you've got the same issue. **Brooke ** 53:41 That's a really good point! [Laughing] No, I didn't think about that. That's a really good point. **Colin ** 53:45 Dried back out. If you put the fire out yourself, you probably use a dry chemical fire extinguisher. So you have a giant mess to clean up, but it's not soaking wet. If the Fire Company had to come and put it out with hoses, not only do you have the fire damage, everything you own in that immediate area is now soaking wet and covered with soot and just generally filthy. That was the situation that we had with the friend that I talked about earlier with having the apartment fire, that it was kind of a blessing that it happened in the middle of winter because we were able to just go over there and get everything out of the apartment and throw it in our backyard and it just stayed frozen for a week until we were ready to deal with it. **Brooke ** 54:32 Ah, right. Because your winters are snowy and icy, not rainy, like here. **Colin ** 54:35 Yeah, it is generally rainy her. But it just happened to be in the middle of cold snap. So it was in the 20s for the most part, dropping down to single digits for about that entire week. So we just had bags and bags of wet clothing, wet furniture, sitting in the backyard under plastic so they stayed frozen and didn't grow mold. Because once things are wet, you're in trouble. So if it's not frozen, the best thing you can do is get fans on it, keep that air moving, and try to get it dried back out as soon as you can. **Brooke ** 55:11 That makes sense. I guess I've never thought about this, but it makes sense. The fire department, if they come in and they take a host of things, they don't come back and dry it out for you. Right, you're left to handle that part on your own. **Colin ** 55:24 You'll have to handle that part. And usually, they have broken windows in the process, because that's how they get the hoses in and that's how they control the flow of the smoke and the fire through the structure, is making holes in walls. Generally, once you have a fire, you also have other structural damage to deal with. **Brooke ** 55:43 Yeah. Okay. We're kind of get down to our last few minutes. I know there's a lot more that we could talk about and go over with all of this. But I want to make some space here for any other sort of critical things that you really want to talk about, teach and share with this episode. **Colin ** 56:01 I think we've covered most of the critical things. Again, the biggest one is just keep yourself safe and don't make the situation worse. No matter how bad it seems, take a minute, breathe, look at it, and think. I know, again, other episodes of the podcast, they've talked about the, like the threat onion from the military, which is the same basic idea as the layers of safety that they talk about in industrial design. And all these things say step one is your design and your engineering controls that make it safe. So the good analogy for that is things like antilock brakes in the car. You don't have to do anything for those to work. They're just there. They don't require any thought. Seatbelts and airbags are also great. Seatbelts, you have to remember to use them, and they only help—they only help after the accident has already occurred. **Brooke ** 57:06 Right. **Colin ** 57:07 A seatbelt does not prevent an accident. So when you're in a bad situation, look at what you're about to do, think about the situation, figure out which of those engineering safety controls have gone out the window as a result of the disaster. So you had a fire in the kitchen, you've lost your stove, you're gonna have to rely on your little tiny Coleman backpacking stove. That's great, it'll work. But you no longer have that automatic ignition, you're going to have to use lighter to light the stove. You don't have the combustion controls to make sure that the flame has a pilot light, that the pilot light turns off when the gas goes out. So you can have the gas from one of their stoves leaking if you fail to turn the valve off all the way when you're done with it. All these things that are part of normal everyday life that you just don't think about, no longer work the way they're supposed to in a disaster. So just look at what you're doing, and see what you've lost, and figure out how you can get that safety back on your own. **Brooke ** 58:22 Okay, that is really great. And I am wishing we had more time because I just feel like there's so much more that we could say and get into. But I think this has been a really, really great, you know, just kind of primer and information that would help people get through, you know, the first two or three days after a disaster for sure. So, I really appreciate that you joined us today on the podcast and share this info with us. Is there anything else that you want to plug or promote or share? **Colin ** 58:56 No, I think that was pretty much it. **Brooke ** 58:58 Okay, well, thanks again for being here. **Colin ** 59:00 Thank you very much. **Brooke ** 59:05 To our listeners. Thanks so much for listening. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Ben and Brooke talk about communication systems during a disaster. They cover basic communication infrastructure and equipment as well as what kind of information is vital to be able to communicate when cell phone towers go down. They also cover just how awesome amateur radio is. Guest Info Ben Kuo (he/him) is an amateur radio operator. Ben can be found on Mastodon @ai6yrr@m.ai6yr.org Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Ben on Communicating After a Disaster **Brooke ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today I'll be talking with Ben about communication and sharing information after disasters. But first, we'd like to celebrate being a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts by playing a little jingle from one of the other podcasts on the network. Jingle, Jingle jingle goes here. **The Ex-Worker Podcast ** 00:45 The border is not just a wall. It's not just a line on a map. It's a power structure, a system of control. The border does not divide one world from another. There is only one world and the border is tearing it apart. The Ex-Worker Podcast presents "No Wall They Can Build: a guide to borders and migration across North America" A serialized audio book in 11 chapters released every Wednesday. tune in at crimethinc.com/podcast. **Brooke ** 01:29 And we're back. Ben, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about communication and information sharing after a disaster. We'd love to know a little bit more about you if you're willing to share your pronouns and where you hail from and anything else that you want to say to introduce yourself?  **Ben ** 01:49 Sure. My name is Ben Kuo, and I am in Ventura County, California. My pronouns are he and him. And my background in disasters is I have been very involved in responding to disasters, providing information on social media, and making sure that people, you know, get the information they need to stay safe and stay healthy and help other people. **Brooke ** 02:17 Nice. Was this something that you got into because of a disaster that happened? Or was it something you were interested in before...before it became useful in this context? If that makes sense? **Ben ** 02:28 It's interesting. I really got involved in this in 20--I believe it's 2018--when Hurricane Maria hit, and hurricane Maria was a category five hurricane, and I am...one of my hobbies--and I have many hobbies-- but one of them is amateur radio. And for folks who have never heard of amateur radio, what it is, is a hobby where you learn how to use the radio and to communicate with people. And that is locally, you know, with people in your area, that is internationally. And you can talk to people all across the globe using just a radio, a power supply, a battery, and an antenna without any of the world being up. So that's no internet, no telephone, no power supply, no power grid. And you can communicate with people all over the world. And it's fun. And I started because it was a lot of fun. But it ends up being very, very, very useful nowadays with the increasing pace of disasters. And so I became an amateur radio operator partially because of the emergency aspect of it. There's a big community around it. But also just because it's a lot of fun for the technology and playing with the technology. So the big story of how I got into the disaster is Hurricane Maria was bearing down on the Caribbean. And it is...I don't know if you've seen the trend in recent years but hurricanes have been spinning up much faster and much more intensely. And it's called rapid intensification. And because of that you don't have quite the warning that you used to with hurricanes. And so people go, "Oh, we can watch this. And we can react." or "Oh, it's gonna be coming in a week." And that's not happening as much anymore. So what happens is someone says, "Hey, it's a tropical storm. We don't have to worry too much." And all of a sudden, it goes from a tropical storm to category five hurricane. This actually happened only a few months ago in Mexico. A tropical storm, everyone says, "Oh, it's just going to be a tropical storm." Even the expert of the National Weather Service said, "Oh, it's just gonna be a tropical storm." And it went from a tropical storm to category five hurricane. And it totally decimated a resort area in Mexico.  **Brooke ** 05:16 I had no idea. And it's interesting because I feel like I seem to hear about them going the other direction so often. Like, oh, there's a hurricane off the coast and it, you know--especially on our coast here on the West Coast--and then it dissipates into, you know, just a tropical storm or what have you. So I wasn't aware that we're seeing an increase of them going from tropical storm to hurricane. That's really interesting. **Ben ** 05:40 Yeah, I think the scientists say, you know, it's an outgrowth of warmer oceans and with the climate crisis and all that, you have more energy. So it hits a warm spot in the ocean and all sudden, you know, it becomes quite crazy. So how I got involved is--I was not involved very much with emergencies and disasters, until hurricane Maria--and I was, you know, monitoring things here and there. And I learned that amateur radio was the only way to get to the...there's a little island nation called Dominica, it's not affiliated with any large country. It's kind of its own country. And they were cut off from the world by hurricane Maria. So they had, I guess they lost 90% of the roofs. They lost...they had no power system. They lost their telephones. And interestingly enough, everyone thought they were okay, because they didn't hear any messages from Dominica. They were like, "Oh, category five, it should be fine." And no one called for help. [Brooke exclaims incredulity] I got on--the amateur radio operators had already been active. There's an active Amateur Radio Group on the island. And I stumbled upon them and discovered they were in big trouble. And they were just begging for help. And so I stumbled in here--I'm all the way in California--and using the magic of amateur radio was actually talking to these folks in the Caribbean. And actually also using the internet kind of to bridge some of the parts of it. It's interesting, all the technology aspects. But the important thing ended up being that they were in a lot of trouble. There's no one to help, and they just needed to get information about what was going on. And I started relaying information to the amateur radio operators there in the region on what was going on, what help was on the way or not on the way. In the meantime, they actually had...the amatory operators actually arranged a rescue of the Prime Minister of the country. And that's like, you know, rescuing the President of the United States. Yeah, they rescued the president of Dominica, the Prime Minister. And they had...they were laying information back and forth like, "Oh, we need this. There's a problem here. People here need dialysis. How can we get help from these people? These people are trapped." At one point, I relayed information from them about someone who had been...who was able to--I guess there's limited cell phone coverage within the country--where they were able to tell somebody else that they were stuck underneath the house. And that got relayed by amateur radio operators out of the country, and I got it and it went back into the country elsewhere. And I rescued somebody. And in fact, I ended up relaying information from the US Embassy. And they actually were sending in...they actually sent in an entire warship, the USS Wasp. It's an amphibious carrier. And they were airlifting US citizens out of the country. And they would actually go in and, you know, drop people off and pull them out of the, you know, whatever vacation villa they're staying at and have them evacuate. It was a big operation. No one...no one really heard about it here. But that was kind of my introduction to the fact that amateur radio was very, very useful in really, you know, like a worst case scenario. And I learned a lot of lessons there, for sure, about how to deal with it. And eventually after Hurricane Maria hit Dominica, it actually hit Puerto Rico.  **Brooke ** 09:37 What year was this by the way?  **Ben ** 09:39 It was September of 2017. And it first hit Dominica, but then the hurricane curved up and it hit Puerto Rico. And I was involved in that. There's a huge...Puerto Rico also had no communications. And the only communications was amateur radio for a good two days I believe. And I was really relaying information back and forth there. And how this ties into social media is I was collecting all this information, relaying it back and forth. And I said, "Hey, I'm listening to all this, I can see what's going on and I might as well post it up on Twitter." And I did that. And I also put up a YouTube stream of all the radio communications that were happening.... **Brooke ** 10:25 Back when Twitter was good and useful and we loved it.  **Ben ** 10:29 Yeah, back when it was a cause for good as opposed to what it is now. **Brooke ** 10:33 Sorry, go on. Mourning the loss of Twitter. **Ben ** 10:38 Yeah, exactly. It's actually quite a thing. So interesting...that would have been it for me. I was going to delete my account. But shortly after that, there was a fire in my own county. And it's actually between Ventura and Santa Barbara County, the Thomas fire. And I said, "Oh, I've got a social media account." And one of the things about amateur radio is you learn how to listen to what's on the radio. And not...this is not broadcast radio. But this is police and fire channels, official agencies, people talking back and forth about what's going on the ground on the scanners. And I was relaying what I heard there. And my followers went from, I think, you know, a few thousand to, you know, 50,000 people because information was so useful to know. So, you know, if you think about what you see on network TV, you'll see the same, you know, Hillside burning the whole newscast, no context. Where is it? What's going on? And when you listen to the Police and Fire Radio, you can say, "Hey, I know that that is in this neighborhood. The fire is moving in this direction. We need to get people out and to safety." And, "Oh, hey, we heard that there's an evacuation here." And it takes...it takes, you know, a couple hours sometimes for the firefighters on the ground to say, "We need to evacuate this neighborhood," to actually, you know, you getting that on your phone or the press picking up on it. So that's kind of how I got into the disasters. And, you know, it kind of has kept on going because, as I mentioned, you know, I think the pace of disasters has increased. I think they just saw...there's just a report this week that said we had the largest amount of billion dollar disasters in the US in 2023 on record. **Brooke ** 12:40 Wow. Like the largest total dollar value amount or like the largest number of disasters? **Ben ** 12:48 Yes. Total dollar amount.Yeah, and so, you know, it's just an ongoing, increasing need in the world. **Brooke ** 12:55 Alright, interesting. So I want to talk about what we can do to prepare before a disaster but I think it would help if we talk about, really quickly, what you lose communication wise in the beginning of a disaster because I think that's going to help make it clear why you need to prepare, if that makes sense. **Ben ** 13:16 Yeah, you know, I mentioned, you know, we are so used to having a smartphone with us. We have a phone with us all the time. It is our way of getting information. It's our way of communicating with people. We text people back and forth. We may use Snapchat or Instagram or whatever your social media is. And people don't realize how much we rely on that today. And what happens during a disaster is the first thing that goes down is the cell phone network, right? Your cell phone network goes down. The cell towers only have so much battery before they fail. And then all of a sudden you don't have a way to say "Hey, is my you know Aunt Marge, okay or not?" right? It's, "What's going on? Where should I go? What should I do? Where can I go?" This was brought home really.... A really terrible example of how we are depending on this and what goes wrong when it fails is Lahaina Hawaii. **Brooke ** 14:22 And I don't know if you listened to it, we released, just a couple weeks ago as we're recording this, I did an episode about Lahaina and kind of reviewing what happened and where they are right now. **Ben ** 14:39 Yeah, and so you're familiar with the fact that, you know, the warnings went out too late. And then the cell towers went down. So no one knew what was going on. And so you were down to, I believe there's a video of some guy without a shirt, you know, bicycling down the street yelling at people to get out. You know, that is your early warning system because your phones don't work. And, you know, if the cell phone network goes down, you know, that cell phone that you're holding is, you know, as good as a rock. You could throw it at something I guess, but it's not going to do much good. **Brooke ** 15:20 Yep. Yep. That's right. **Ben ** 15:22 Yeah. And, you know, I don't think most people think about how much we depend on communications for all the things we do, especially in a safety situation, you know. Should I be evacuating? Where's the disaster? Where's help? Where should I not be going? That is all information that when you lose communications, you've lost, and it can be fatal. So that's why, you know, as much as people often say, "Hey, well, you know why are you doing this amateur radio stuff? You know, we have cell phones now. We have the internet. Why do we need this, you know, old fashioned stuff?" It's not really old fashioned. But, you know, that is the struggle that I often have with people thinking about disasters. And the other problem that we have is--and not obviously listeners of your podcast--but we live in a world where everyone thinks that it will never happen to them. And people don't want to prepare. They say, "Hey, I, you know, this is never going to happen to me. I don't want to think about bad things." And if you don't do that, then you're in a much worse spot when it does happen. **Brooke ** 16:33 For sure, for sure. Okay, so when it happens, you know, we lose...we lose our phones. That's one of the biggest things and basically all of the ways that we're used to communicating. So what do we do before a disaster to get ready for that scenario? What kind of things do we need to have on hand or need to know how to do? Please teach me? **Ben ** 16:57 Yeah, so. So some basic things you should do is have an alternate communication plan, or at very least someplace you can meet people. So say you don't have, you know, a radio or anything like that, you say "Hey, if we have a disaster, here's the plan," right? "This is where we go if there's a fire or a flood or whatever it is. What are we going to do?" Okay, and that doesn't require you to have communications. It just means you have to pre-plan what you're doing. But, you know, the first level up--and this, you know, there's kind of levels of how much you want to invest in communications--but, you know, you can buy off the shelf radios at sporting goods stores, which, you know, they're called FRS radios or GMRS radios. **Brooke ** 17:47 Is that a special radio then? Or is it like the old school radios we grew up with? **Ben ** 17:50 Yeah, so it's different. So, a lot of people are familiar with CB radio. And that's an old technology. And people still use it. But it's not really used a lot for this kind of thing, mainly because it doesn't have very long range. You can't go very far. But FRS and GMRS radios do have a little bit of range. And in radio, the key is something called line of sight, which is how far you can see. So if you are standing on top of a mountain, you can talk a very long distance. If you are in the bottom of the valley then you're not going to get very far. And so most of those handheld radios that you can buy don't require a license, you just have to pay your money and get them. You know, their range is probably--they say 20 miles--but really, practically, it's about two--five miles. And those are great for your family group. Or if you've got a group of folks that are in your neighborhood and you want to communicate then that is kind of the first step and you have now.... Now, you can say instead of all of sudden everyone's lost their phones, no one knows what's going on, everyone can turn their radio on--as long as it keeps it charged and knows how to use it--they can go "Hey, Jill, you're down the street. How are you? You know, are you okay?" "Oh, yeah, we're okay. You know, there's an earthquake. Oh, yeah. Everyone's okay. We're outside, right." So, you know, that's something that's very easy to do. It's off the shelf there. They're actually sold in blister packs at the sporting goods store. And it's a level one. It's like, oh, do you have a plan to at least communicate with your family and people in your neighborhood? **Brooke ** 19:40 Okay, that sounds so much like walkie talkies that we had as a kid but like a higher end farther distance thing. **Ben ** 19:48 Essentially, it is a walkie talkie. And that is what they are and, you know, they sell them as kids toys, but it's a first level of basic communications that you may want to consider, especially for your family. It's like, even if you look at some of the...if you see people fleeing from fires and from disasters, you know, see these videos of people, they can't talk to someone else in another car when your cell phone network goes down. And you can with a little walkie talkie. So that's, you know, you may have two people, one person in one car, another person in another car, and you can at least talk and say, "Hey, you know, this is what we're doing. This is where we're going." **Brooke ** 20:26 Do those--I'm getting into the weeds here but I'm just so curious to those--like, if you buy a set from the store and somebody else buys a set from the store, I'm assuming those must like cross traffic with each other? **Ben ** 20:41 Yeah, as long as you buy the ones that are licensed in the US. It's called FRS and GMRS. radios. GMRS actually requires a license, which is I think it's $25 for 10 years. But no one's checking on those. It's kind of the Wild West. I would advise getting a license, but they saw them everywhere. And a lot of people don't.  **Brooke ** 21:04 Okay, so if you get those planning to use them to communicate with loved ones and neighbors you may have other people using theirs that you'll have cross cross talk. **Ben ** 21:16 Yeah, for sure. For sure. And those are the same frequencies that, you know, the kids down the street. So you'll turn it on and go, "Oh, there's little kids playing cops and robbers." They are shared frequencies. Yeah, so your next level up is--and I advocate for this because I am an amateur radio operator--is to actually get a license. And in all the countries around the world, you can get an entry level, amateur radio license and you can use a lot more frequencies and much better gear even at a very basic level. And in the US, there's, I think it's a 25-30 question test. And all the answers are pre published. So you can actually go and, you know, cram for this thing and get it in a week if you're...if you so desire.  And so that actually can get you much, much farther. And so in the US it's called a technician license and you can actually.... With those, I've talked to someone 50 miles away direct. So that is, you know, nothing in between. And there's also things that are called repeaters that sit on top of hills, and you can talk to people hundreds and hundreds of miles away because they're all linked together. And there's actually...and there's an interesting tradition among the amateur radio community, which is they have groups that work on doing communications and they focus on, you know, those kind of bands on VHF, UHF, those things are all local. So you have a group of people.... In our area, they actually have people, you know, you're on a list, and they say, "Hey, who's on the list?" They're all licensed. And this is licensing in the US by the FCC. And they actually check to say, "Who's here? Who's not?" And it's a practice, right, to see whether or not. So it's a good thing to do, at least in our area. And I'm in California. It is, you know, men and women and kids and that sort of...anyone who can get a license, and, um, it's definitely something to think about. **Brooke ** 23:46 Okay, so anything else kind of on that part of things you can do before the disaster to help get ready with communication and information sharing? **Ben ** 23:58 Yeah, so the, you know, the other thing to do is I found that you need to know who is out there in the community that you are going to communicate with. And I think too many people do not think about it. You need to know who you're talking to and whether you trust them or not, and have your resources lined up. And I saw this in hurricane Maria where people were asking for help, but no one had ever met the folks, didn't know them, didn't trust them. And so, it was a very different thing, right? You're.... When you're talking to someone, communicating with someone, you need to have a pre-existing relationship with them. And, you know, I think in this world, you know, you're asking for some kind of mutual aid but you kind of want to have an idea of who it is or what group it is or do you trust them or not? And it's good to have that stuff kind of thought of, to, you know, think of think of that stuff beforehand, right? Who are the resources In our area if we had a disaster? Hey, you know, the folks in the next city, we've got to...you know, we're okay here. Do we need to bring some of them in? Do they have, you know, the resources? And would they help us if there's a problem? There's a lot of stuff that needs to be, you know, thought about, which is beyond the communication but more the organization. **Brooke ** 25:20 Yeah. Is it devastating if you haven't built out those networks yet prior to? **Ben ** 25:26 It's not. It's just hard. I think it's just harder. **Brooke ** 25:29 Yeah. Makes sense. Alright. Other things to prepare before your disaster hits? **Ben ** 25:38 Yeah, the other piece of it that I run across is because the communications folks tend to be very good at communications if they don't cover the basics, right? So you need to think about all the basic disaster stuff first, before the communications, which is, "Hey, do I have the basic food and water kind of things? Have I got, you know, all the safety stuff for myself, my family. And, you know, for yourself first, before you even think about, "Oh, do I even have a way to communicate?"  **Brooke ** 26:10 Yeah, okay. That makes sense.  **Ben ** 26:13 You're not useful in that role of communicating if you, yourself are no longer able to help. You know what I mean.  **Brooke ** 26:25 Alright, okay. Alright, shall we move into talking about, you know, you're in the aftermath of a disaster and you need to communicate and share information? **Ben ** 26:36 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the things that happen after a disaster is people are looking for ways to get information to family and friends. And the number one thing I find is people either have to ask for help, because there's a medical issue or they need to be rescued or something like that, or the other big thing is people...I don't think people understand how much people miss knowing what's going on. Right? So if there's a disaster, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who go all sudden, "Hey, is my grandmother okay? Is my grandfather okay? Is my friend okay? What's going on?" right? And it is.... A lot of times people say, "Hey, if I call somebody in such and such an area, maybe they can go find, you know, whoever is missing, or whatever, or something like that, right? So this...we saw this during the Lahaina, right? There's people, you know, thousands of relatives going, "Oh no, I know somebody in Lahaina. Are they okay?" And the lessons I've learned from so many disasters is there's no way to get information into a disaster zone. Not very efficiently. **Brooke ** 27:55 That's a really good point.  **Ben ** 27:56 Yeah, so information can come out of a disaster zone, but it doesn't go into a disaster. And so, if you...so for example, if you're an amateur radio operator, generally, you could get a message out saying, you know, "Help me. I've got a problem." Or you can say, "Hey, I'm okay. Let someone know that I'm okay." If you are just someone with a smartphone, and no communications, you are just out of luck, unless you can find someone who can lay that information. And there's a lot of these systems, and I hate to...I hate to criticize some of the nonprofits that exist in the world for these things, but they have "Oh, hey, check in safety." It's like, they say, "Yo, check in on Facebook that you're okay." It's like, well, you have no way to get on Facebook. There's no internet, there's no power. How are you supposed to do that, right? Yeah, and even even the case, there's a system by a big aid organization that has a red symbol and it says, "Oh, it's a safe and well if you need to know someone's okay." And two things. One is, if you try to ask for someone's information, they say, 'What was their phone number and their last address?" And you go, "Well, how am I supposed to know that? You know, I just know that they're in this town," and whatever. There's a lot of stuff like that that's like, "Oh, do you have their social security numbers?" It's like "No, I don't have their social security." So there's a lot of stuff in the way of that. And it's a lot easier, and I found all these disasters, if someone's able to get out themselves. So like I said, the amateur radio operators can relay information to other people. So if you've got a neighbor who's an amateur radio operator, they can go "Oh, hey, I'm gonna call somebody up." This happened actually after--famously after Katrina--Katrina. Hurricane Katrina took down took down communications and there was a lot of communication out by people relaying information to other amateur radio operators they knew. So they said, "Hey, you know, this is where the Smith family is. We're at this street. Can you let somebody know at our family that we're okay." And they would pass on a phone number to call or someone to text or something like that. I did that a lot in Puerto Rico. So a lot of people who are in Puerto Rico, they have family somewhere else, they have no way to tell them that they're okay and they really don't need anything, but people are worried, right? Imagine your family is in the middle of a hurricane or something like that, or wildfire, and how do you let people know you're okay. **Brooke ** 30:45 Yeah, that makes sense. With the amateur radio networks and whatnot, you know, I know you just mentioned a few times about how you can relay information through those. And I'm curious if they're sort of existing networks of communication at all. I mean, obviously, there are folks that know each other. But do you guys have any kind of, I don't know, pre existing.... Like, do you already know where some of your people that you talk to live? Like if you had to get information to, I don't know, Montana--random example.  **Ben ** 31:27 Yeah, there's an established network to do that. I have my own opinions on how effective it is or not, but they do have a.... It's actually one of the reasons amateur radio exists in the US. It was very early in the 1900s when there were disasters, radio was the only way to get out information. And so they actually started doing that back in the days of Morse code, believe it or not, when they were relaying it. And that's part of the reason why the hobby has such a strong tradition in the communications and emergency area. And so, you know, I mentioned I was doing a lot of stuff online about, you know, wildfires and hurricanes on Twitter and what's going on. And a lot of what I do and have done is stuff that the hobby, as a whole, has been doing since its beginnings. **Brooke ** 32:22 I didn't think about how deep those roots are. But that's kind of cool to think about going all the way back to, you know, using Morse code to relay the information. **Ben ** 32:32 Yeah, well, in fact, you know, if you think about it, you know, everyone knows SOS in Morse code, right? Did, did, did. Dot, dot, dot [making noises like someone speaking in Morse code] All that came from--an amateur radio started around the same time as all that kind of communication was going on, you know, like the Titanic or whatever else like that. So, that is, you know, a long standing tradition. And before the internet, before we had phone networks, we had radio networks. So that's kind of the long tradition there. **Brooke ** 33:06 Yeah, that makes sense. So you said you have some opinions about the efficacy of the system of relay that they have now and it sounds like maybe you're not entirely happy with the way that works. I'm curious to know what you think there are and why? So, you know, if there's a limitation that we need to understand. **Ben ** 33:29 Yeah. So they have a very regimented way of sending messages. And they try to pass messages...they try to do it the old fashioned way, which is you get a message, you know, here and then you pass it. Say I want to send something to Boston. Well, they may send it to somewhere in between. And then it goes through the neighborhood and then eventually, at some point, it gets there.  And nowadays, I think it's more effective to just get out of your disaster zone and get the message there. And so, you know, for me, what happens is during the hurricane issues that I had, trying to use that network didn't work because I said, "Hey, I just need...I have a real disaster here. This is not pretend. This is not a simulation. I have people who need to know that their family's okay." I had a text on my phone from people--it was actually relayed from a boat after a hurricane--saying, you know, "We're docked here. We are okay. We just want to let someone know. And so this is the boat name. This is our location. And here's the neighborhood. Here's our relative. We need to let them know that we're okay. They don't need to send the Coast Guard." and trying to send that through a network which is used to passing it by hand, it's like can someone just call them? Like, we don't need to do this. It's great practice. But when it comes to a real disaster, why are we doing all this stuff when we can just call them up? The first person who's on a cell phone network can call them up and say, "Your relatives are okay."  **Brooke ** 35:04 That's a good point. And, you know, the children's game of telephone that you're practically doing with passing it from one place to the next place to the next, you know, is not ideal, as we all know, for many reasons.  **Ben ** 35:22 And I think that's their legacy is they don't use it as much as they ought to. And maybe they're using it more now with the disasters we have. But there's a lot of experts in the world who've never applied their knowledge. I find that also the case in just disaster preparedness in general. You have a lot of people who are disaster preparedness experts and they've never had to deal with a disaster. And the worst is that people sometimes they'll say, "Hey, you're a prepper. Blah, blah, blah," and I go, "No, the preppers don't have any concept of actually reacting to a real problem." The pandemic was the big one that I saw. All these folks who said, "Hey, watch out for the zombie apocalypse, we need to, you know, stock our homes with guns and MREs." And then when there's an actual, you know, pandemic, they go, "We're not wearing masks. We aren't gonna get vaccinated." You're going, "Oh, my gosh," you know? So there's, you know, there was a miss, a complete miss, because they're just not...you know, they call themselves one thing, but they don't have...they didn't have the experience or the right mindset going into it. **Brooke ** 36:40 So I'm curious about the types of information that we need to share. You know, we talked about after a disaster, you know, being able to relay that, you know, this person is okay, you know, finding so-called missing or unknown people and figuring out what's going on with them. But what else...like what other kinds of things do people need to relay that this network could be useful for after a disaster? **Ben ** 37:08 Yeah, help. Help is number one. So life threatening information. So if somebody is trapped or needs help, medical help. And, obviously, you have to know where to get it to. But in most cases, if you can get that information to the authorities, somebody is going to come and help you. And they just need to know it, right? So your local fire department, right? Or, maybe it's a search and rescue team or something like that. You need to be able to get that information to them. And so that's definitely a big one with communications. I don't know if you've ever seen that 911 systems go down in the US all too often.  **Brooke ** 37:53 I have heard.  **Ben ** 37:54 And if you don't have 911, you have to be able to call for help, right? And so we haven't seen that a ton where people have used radio to do that. But it is one thing. So if our 911 system here goes down, I know that I can call somebody else who can get to, you know, fire and rescue or whatever it is. So, help for sure. And the other part of it, the communications, is for your community, is helping out in the community, is knowing more situational--it's something called situational awareness--what's going on? Where are the issues? What's happening? And, you know, that's not just for you to communicate. It's another thing to listen. So, you know, the nice thing about radio is you can both listen and also communicate. And being able to listen to know what's going on is a huge piece of it. So you'll find that even if you're not somebody who's on the air communicating after a disaster, you can at least listen and hear what's going on and know what to watch out for. Like, hey the freeways shut down, so don't go that way. Or, you know, the fire is in this area. Or, you know, in hurricanes, hey, you know, this is where the aid center is, or whatever it is, or this is where someone's distributing food, you know? So there's all that information. It is really helpful as a part of a disaster plan is how do you know what's going on and where things are happening. In the amateur radio community, which is something that everyone should do, you know, they actually share information. So there's people all around town and they go, "Hey, no one said this on the news. There's no information about this. But you guys can't go there. The bridge is down."  **Brooke ** 39:42 That makes sense. So, escape route, maybe for lack of a better word, but just like, you know, communicating infrastructure issues. That's really interesting. Other things that you can think of that are, you know, types of information that people need that can be useful in sharing, if any? If not, that's okay. **Ben ** 40:09 Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think it's the general awareness. And this is a tool, you know, the radio stuff I talk about is just a tool for what's going on. And, what I'm sharing on social media, it's not just the radio stuff, although it's a big part of it, but it's things like, you know, where do you get information about evacuation zones, right? Where is--during fires we can see maps of where the fires are. You can look up... You can look up evacuation centers. You can get maps of flooded areas. There's a lot of information sources. And I think on the communication side, even if you're not cut off, there's a lot of things that just letting people know about--and that's what I do--is what is this situation? Where are the issues? What's going on? I mean, today, I've been sending out messages about flooding. And I don't know if you know, but there's huge waves off the coast of California right now. And they're parts of Santa Cruz, there's parts of the Pacific Coast Highway that are underwater because of these big waves. And just knowing about that stuff is useful in that general awareness. And this whole area of communications, you know, the situational awareness is something that in disasters, you know, it really does make a difference. And I've had people say, "Hey, you know, we knew, because you were paying attention to what's going on with the fire, that we needed to get...we needed to take our horses and get them evacuated," And it takes a while to evacuate horses, right? And, "Oh, our house, we knew that our house was in a threat area. We needed to get...we needed to get our aunt, you know, to safety." And it's just that time, that information, you know, you don't want to be the last person to know that something's happening in your neighborhood. And this whole part of the aspect of listening to the radio helps with that in just the general situational awareness. **Brooke ** 42:11 There's, you know, kind of a component after the radio, because not everyone's going to have the radio, you know, if then, you know, if you are the one who gets the information via the radio, then how you go out and disseminate it. But that's maybe kind of another topic, unless you want to get into it. But, you know, do you put up posters? Like, you know, letting other people know, "Oh, I found out that such and such bridge is down. How do I communicate that to folks that don't have a radio? How do we spread that wider? **Ben ** 42:41 Yeah. And that...I don't think we've solved that problem in general, you know, just how do you get the information faster. I, you know, I talk about the rate just because that puts you on the knowing side of things versus the not-knowing side of things. And it's just...it's just one of those things in disasters, having that awareness--even if you can't communicate out--knowing what's going on gives you an advantage to you know, safety and health and all that. It is really helpful. **Brooke ** 43:12 Yeah, okay, I've got one last question for you, I think. I think, unless something sparks in my brain here. But is this useful in all types of disasters, natural disasters, emergencies, whatnot? Or are there ones that this tool would not be useful or effective for? **Ben ** 43:34 Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think it's actually useful in most cases. It's very used during hurricanes. It's used a lot during wildfires. It is used a lot in earthquakes. Most of the folks that I know who are licensed here in my area, who are older than me, are, were licensed because of the Northridge earthquake. They all said, "Hey, we..." you know, the typical problem was, "Oh, I was at work. And my wife was one place and my kids were somewhere else and we could not communicate." And they said, "How do we fix that problem?" And so they said, "We're gonna get licensed as an amateur radio operator." And so earthquakes are a huge driver in California. But I think in general, I found it useful in all sorts of situations, whether it's an emergency. So yeah, and even interesting enough--and maybe it's more of a social thing, because there's a social group built in--but even with the pandemic, we we had a group who started out on the radio. And it's...maybe you could have done this on Zoom or on the phone, but there's a bunch of folks on radio who started talking every day. And you knew what's going on and you were able to trade information. Even today, now I go, "Oh, hey, there's a big outbreak of COVID," because, you know, three of the people on the net--we call them net like, it's like a round table or networ and people check in--and someone goes, "Oh, you know what, our whole family just caught COVID." And you go, "Oh, you know, I haven't heard that for a while. So maybe something's going on." You know? It is interesting. It's just another way of getting information about what's going on. And it gives you a little bit of a network. And that network also operates.... You know, the nice thing about what we do is that operates when all the power goes. In California, they've been shutting down power during high-wind events. And that often takes down cell towers. They're supposed to.... They've got some laws in now and they're supposed to put them back up, but it's not there yet. And so they shut things down. No one knows what's going on. They hop on the radio, they go, "Hey, I got a blackout here. What's going on?" Somebody who's outside of the blackout looks it up and says, "Hey, they shut down your whole part of town because of the wind danger," or whatever it is. So, it is useful. **Brooke ** 45:57 Yeah. And going back to our Lahaina example, that's a thing that would have been helpful in preventing some of those fires, if they had shut down power lines with what was coming in. And that is, unfortunately, because of the age of our power system and the lack of maintenance we've done on a lot of our infrastructure. Shutting off the power is one of the things that power companies are doing more often as a safety measure. **Ben ** 46:29 Yeah. And you know, some of that is...is liability, because of the number of fires that have happened and all that. And some of it, interestingly enough--and this is a climate issue--is some of that damage is just happening much more often than it used to. And, you know, some of the things I didn't talk about, but, you know, part of what we do as amateur operators is you don't just have the radio, but you also have to consider how am I going to charge it? How am I going to do that? Do I have a battery bank that works? Do I have a solar panel? There's a lot that goes into that, you know? It's kind of a general resiliency thing, which is...is very relevant in that case, right? Your power goes out and your cell phone tower is now down, how do you know what's going on? Most likely, somebody who's an amateur radio operator has a battery-backed up radio and knows what's going on. Because you know, and it doesn't matter. I can talk to Brazil when none of my neighborhood has power just for fun because it's there and running. **Brooke ** 47:42 Yeah. And before anybody asks me about it, I am not trying to say that the power company shutting down the power is a good thing or a bad thing, only observing that it is a thing that is happening and it has benefits and costs to it. **Ben ** 47:59 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it makes sense. I mean, most of the...many wildfires here have been caused by power lines. So, you know, the converse thing is when they shut down the power the, you know, like I said, the cell phone tower doesn't work anymore. And that's what happened in Lahaina, the power stopped working and you lost the cell phone towers and then all of a sudden you're in trouble.  **Brooke ** 48:21 Yep, yep. Alright, I think that brings us to a conclusion on this topic for today. So Ben, I want to thank you so much for reaching out and offering to have this conversation with us and making the time to sit with me and talk about it. I have learned some things today and I'm excited about that. Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything that you would like to plug, social medias, charity groups, anything like that? **Ben ** 48:51 Yep. So um, I am nowadays on Mastodon. So if you want to follow my disaster emergencies and random musings on life, I am ai6yrr@m.ai6yr.org. So that's my...that's actually my callsign, my radio callsign, ai6yrr@m.ai6yrr.org. And, you know, as much as I talked about the disaster part of the hobby is there's a lot of fun stuff too. We can talk to astronauts in space. We have our own satellites. There's all sorts of science stuff you can do. And it is really quite a...it's not just for disasters and emergencies. It just happens to be a useful part of it. **Brooke ** 49:43 Well, thanks for putting that in. I appreciate it. You can also find me on Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke, that's Brooke with an E. And Ben again, I just really want to thank you for coming on today and talking with us. Yeah, **Ben ** 50:00 Hopefully someone learned something. So thanks a lot. **Brooke ** 50:06 And to our listeners, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy our podcast, please give it a like, drop a comment, or review. Subscribe to us if you haven't already. These things make the algorithms that rule our world offer a show to more people. This podcast is produced by the anarchist publishing collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can connect with us on Twitter @Tangled_Wild and also on Instagram. Or check out our website at tangledwilderness.org where you can find our extensive list of projects and publications. This podcast and much of the work of Strangers is made possible by our Patreon supporters. If you want to become a supporter, check out patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. There are cool benefits at various support tiers on Patreon. For instance, if you support the collective at just $10 a month, we will mail you a monthly zine. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by two humanitarian-aid workers who have been providing care to asylum seekers along the Mexico-Arizona border near Sasabe where Prevention Through Deterrence policies are playing out in realtime as thousands of asylum seekers are left out in the winter desert by Border Patrol. Guest Info Groups like the ones these volunteers work with can be found at nomoredeaths.org/, www.tucsonsamaritans.org, and www.gvs-samaritans.org. Groups in California like borderkindness.org are doing similar work. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Crisis on the Arizona Border **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin and today we're gonna be talking about some pretty horrible things going on in the world which, you know, of course, we never talk about horrible things on this podcast. It's always really good and wonderful things. But yeah, we're going to be talking about a crisis that has been going on on the Arizona border near the town of Sasabe. And it's gonna tie in a lot of things that we've talked about on the show before, especially from the No More Deaths interviews. So, if you haven't listened to the No More Deaths interviews, they're not...it's certainly not required. But if you do not have a...like a broad understanding of the history of border militarization or fucking dumb things that Border Patrol does, it might be helpful to go back and listen to those episodes first. But yeah, but before we get to all of that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here is a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [Singing a simple melody] **Inmn ** 02:54 And we're back. Thanks you all so much for coming on the show today. Would y'all Introduce yourself with your names, pronouns, and I guess a little bit about like what you do in the world that relates to what we're going to be talking about? **Bryce ** 03:24 Yeah, Bryce, he/him. I've been working with various desert aid organizations over the past couple of years, Tucson Samaritans, No More Deaths and some search and rescue search and recovery groups. **Ember ** 03:42 I'm Ember, he/him, and have been working with No More Deaths around Arivaca, Arizona for the last year and a half. **Inmn ** 03:53 Cool. So there's been a lot of stuff happening at the wall recently, which, you know, is what we're here to talk about and, yeah, I don't know, do y'all want to just tell us about what's what's going on at the wall? Ember04:18 Yeah, I'll just preface it by saying, you know, we're very much just speaking as individuals who've been involved with wall stuff around Sasabe, Arizona, which is about an hour south of Tucson and we'll talk more about it but to just step back, this is a crisis that's happening all over the border and we're really going to be speaking primarily to the situation that's been unfolding around Sasabe in the last months and weeks and not speaking on behalf of No More Deaths or any other groups. **Inmn ** 04:58 Cool. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like a huge, huge, huge, sprawling crisis of horrible things. Bryce05:07 But yeah, so I think there's been a lot more media about what's happening in Jacumba or in Lukesville, where hundreds or thousands of people have been coming through the wall, not a port of entry, to seek asylum, and have been left out there in sort of makeshift camps for days or weeks at a time waiting to be apprehended by Border Patrol. And something similar has been happening east of Sasabe, which is this tiny, tiny, tiny little town, as Ember said, about an hour south of Tucson. For the past couple years, people have been doing a similar thing of coming through gaps in the border wall to seek asylum because they're blocked from presenting themselves at ports of entry. So over the past couple of years, it's mostly been like the Tucson Samaritans and Green Valley Samaritans that have been helping these people out, because pretty much the situation was that if you don't call Border Patrol to come apprehend them then Border Patrol will just never come. It's a super remote area of the desert. There's a road that goes along the border wall that you can easily drive to get to these people, but Border Patrol just won't do it because it's not really worth their time. And so at times, there would be people stuck out there for like three or four days. I ran into one group that had written SOS in rocks and had built a fire just trying to get Border Patrol's attention. And this is like two years ago before any of this was even in the news. And just...it's kind of just slowly escalated until the beginning of November. A lot of violence broke out south of Sasabe on the Mexican side. And it's just.... Between that and just other dynamics happening, it just shifted things so that we suddenly started seeing just hundreds of people there on the border wall seeking asylum. And where usually there were gaps closer to Sasabe where they could present so that Border Patrol could just show up in buses or vans and pick people up, now people were showing up much further east in more remote areas that are much more difficult to get to because of Biden's new border wall construction that blocked off access to some of these closer areas. So now the situation quickly became that Border Patrol would take a very long time to pick anybody up. And because of the high volume of people, they're now 20 kilometers, or 30 kilometers away from the actual port of entry. People are having to hike are left overnight just in the middle of nowhere, just building fires or doing whatever they can to survive the night. And, yeah, it's been about a couple of months of that now. Ember08:20 I'm going to just reiterate that, you know, a big call of a lot of groups is to open ports of entry because this is stemming from the point that people can't claim asylum at a port of entry, people are being forced to use this bullshit CBP app and wait for insane amounts of time, if ever, to be allowed to present for asylum. And so as we kind of hear the mainstream propaganda about what's going on, there's very little emphasis on the fact that the reason people are coming through gaps in the wall in really remote areas is fundamentally because they can't claim asylum at a port of entry and because the gaps are being closed nearby and that's just really important to ground it because there's just so much misinformation about that. **Inmn ** 09:10 For folks who don't know, why can't people claim...apply for asylum at a port of entry? Bryce09:17 I think there's a lot of confusion and misinformation about this. A lot of people I think thought that that was going to change when Title 42 was repealed or thinking it had something to do with the MPP, the Remain in Mexico Policy, but this actually was, it was a separate policy decision that at first got some media exposure. It started with metering back in like 2017 or something--sometimes during--where they would where they would just let in a certain amount of people and then CBP agents would actually block people before they got to the port of entry and say "We can't take any more people. You have to show us your passport," all this stuff. And then that turned into during COVID, "We're just not going to take anybody." And then now with Biden, it has continued, where if you don't have a CBP One app, CBP agents will just turn you away at the port of entry. And there's been a lot of legal stuff about it. Like, I think in San Diego there were a couple big court cases where they said, "You can't continue doing this," but the Biden administration has come out saying, like, "We don't actually turn people away at the port of entry. We don't do turn-backs." But clearly on the ground, that is what's happening. And so I think people think of it as like that there's some big law that needs to be changed or that, you know, people are trying to do something sketchy by coming between ports of entry, or at the port of entry, or that there is a legal pathway through the CBP One app and people just aren't doing it. But really, the CBP One app forces people.... It's essentially the remain in Mexico Policy but without the Remain in Mexico Policy. And then if people try to present themselves at the port of entry, which they should be allowed to do, they're just turned away. And there's not some...there's not some big thing causing this to happen. It's just pure policy that could be changed very, very soon if they actually had the desire to do it. **Inmn ** 10:29 Yeah. So it's like with this app, people are being asked to download an app to apply for asylum through and then they just wait for a notification? Bryce11:48 Yeah. And then once the.... This should all be.... Nobody should take my word for this because I'm not like a fucking asylum lawyer or something. This is just from talking to people, my understanding of it. So definitely don't.... Don't take it too seriously. But from what I understand, people are...people download the app and once they get the notification that they have an appointment then they have to get to the port of entry where that appointment is within 24 hours or something. And then just get to it. But there's no like.... The people will wait, you know, a couple months, six months, a year, and they just are sort of in limbo until they get their appointment. **Inmn ** 12:35 Golly, it sounds like.... This sounds like a sick joke of like people like.... Wait, I'm not even gonna make the comparison. This sounds like a sick fucking joke. But um...and so this has been happening for quite some time. But very recently, things kind of got a lot worse in Arizona, or like around Sasabe. Bryce13:05 Yeah, I mean, and it definitely seems like a big part of it is...whatever fighting between rival factions of the cartel south of the border. It's hard to really say exactly, but at the same time, that.... People started coming in higher numbers in the last two months. People also started coming through the San Miguel gate on the Tohono O'odham Nation in even higher numbers than here. And over there, there's not nearly as much.... Border Patrol was promising to, you know, set up structures and give water and all that stuff, but in the end, there's just really not a lot of support over there like, you know, what we have here. There's been a lot of community committee support and donations coming in, which has been great, but over at San Miguel, there's not even that which is already inadequate. **Inmn ** 14:08 Yeah, yeah. And maybe this is sort of me asking a question that I've had about all of this: I've heard that the town of Sasabe is like.... I've heard it referred to as a ghost town right now? Bryce14:27 Yeah, I mean, I think there's like 20 residents left or something like that. I have...a couple of friends of mine went down there recently to visit a friend who's still living there and she runs a migrant outreach center in the town, which hasn't really had people in it, but it's doing fine. The garden is still going. [Inmn "Hell yeahs"] I do know people are definitely interested in coming back if and when things calm down. **Inmn ** 15:00 Do...I guess do you want to talk about what y'all have been experiencing in kind of like the last week, I guess? Ember15:08 Yeah, I mean, pretty much as Bryce was saying, there's been folks responding to this, primarily the Samaritans as a formal group from Tucson and Green Valley, who have been responding to this for much longer. But folks involved with No More Deaths really got involved more significantly about a month ago because of the massive increase in the numbers of people out there and people being pushed further out into the desert. And that response has grown quite a bit. It kind of started with a few people from No More Deaths who were getting involved and then has exponentially increased in the last week. It was a situation that was really, really challenging in terms of the amount of resources and supplies needed for stuff. Like, basically hundreds of people, primarily a lot of children and babies and families and elders, stuck out in the increasingly becoming winter temperatures with completely inadequate supplies, most people who expected to be picked up immediately and we're instead waiting for up to three or four days in the winter conditions in very remote areas of the desert. The border wall outside of this area goes just right through very, very mountainous terrain. And so the border wall, you know, there's a road on the border wall, but it's basically, as you get far out, just being completely out in the middle of the desert. It's an insane road. It just goes straight up and down mountains. And so people are stuck out there for, at times, up to multiple days and may have been waiting on the other side for some days before they crossed. And so a lot of the original response as our group started to get involved was just primarily supply distro and medical care and medical triage. And I mean, just to give a context of how many people were out there, I think we originally had an emergency request for $10,000 and we used that money in about a week. **Inmn ** 17:41 Oh my god. Ember17:42 So that's primarily for food, water, blankets, you know, over the counter meds, and gas for the trucks, and things like that. Things really came to a head. I mean, it was a very untenable situation or unsustainable situation in terms of people going out there regularly and being like, "People are going to die out here. This is a really fucked up situation." People tried to pressure and call Border Patrol to pick people up, which they were slow to do. So sometimes they would do it regularly. Sometimes they would take a lot longer. But last Friday, there was a massive rainstorm. And we had...those of us who had been involved in organizing support around it had already started to put out larger calls for support, realizing this was way out of the depths of just what our group could respond to. And so we were putting out larger calls for support from the Tucson community, from Arivaca, which is a town about 15 miles from Sasabe, and we were preparing a little bit for the rain in terms of...the day before we set up some tarp structures at some of the places people were waiting. But what happened on Friday, I think really expanded the calls to mobilize and got way more people involved. And yeah, I'll leave it to Bryce if you want to talk a little bit about what happened on Friday. Bryce19:25 Sure. Yeah. I mean, I guess some other context would be that, increasingly, we had to do a lot of advocacy for emergency situations because, like Ember said, it was really just, you know, kids, infants, people that were not prepared to be out, you know, 30 mile...30 kilometers from a road, coming just with the clothes on their backs or maybe a little day pack or something but really kind of expecting to be picked up by Border Patrol immediately. And there's a lot of people that had started out with very serious medical conditions even. There's at least a few cases that I was personally involved in of people coming to the United States specifically to seek medical care for their children. So, it'd be like a kid with kidney disease or, you know, needing some kind of medicine daily that hadn't had it for multiple days are really serious things, you know, or some woman who is nine months pregnant and having medical issues. I mean, really serious things where somebody should just not be out in the middle of the desert. And the kind of advocacy we had to do for on 911 [calls] was just really obscene. Like, we call 911, say, there's somebody out here with some particular medical emergency, they'd ask the nationality of the person, whether they were entering the United States illegally, things like that, and then transfer us to Border Patrol. And Border Patrol would either drop the call or say, "Okay, we're sending somebody." and then we sit there for six hours and, of course, nobody comes. There were times when Border Patrol would actually come out. They'd check out like two or three 911 calls, say, "Okay, this person is not going to die today," and then leave. And then we eventually were able to convince some ambulances to occasionally come out for very, very serious cases. But even then, they started getting upset with us for, quote-unquote, "Crying wolf." And just the amount of advocacy that we had to do even to get that response was just...I mean, it was...it would just be hours of calling everybody we knew with connections to be able to get an ambulance down there. And then, even then, we would get threatened with arrest by Border Patrol for transporting people to the highway to rendezvous with an ambulance, even with permission of the ambulance. And so when the rainstorm came, it was this sort of perfect storm where we had a system in place where we were sort of prepared to medivac the most serious patients out of there and just sort of keep everybody else alive until Border Patrol came to pick people up because.... And then we would advocate for, "Okay, these people really need to be taken first. You need to take these people first." Which in itself is a really compromising position to be in just because we're acting as an intermediary between people and their physical safety and the asylum process. It's like this weird.... Like, we're not the government, but we're fulfilling this weird government role. And, yeah, it's a very weird thing. But when the rain storm happened, we were not prepared for the reality of Border Patrol just not showing up at all. They had been pretty consistently, even if we don't see them all day, they eventually show up at like five or six, especially if we call a million times and advocate and call 911, and all that. And so, the roads were muddy, but we were doing it in our janky little trucks, we were driving back and forth just fine. And somewhere around like two or three, it started...we started to realize that just nobody was coming. And they were.... Like, I don't know why, after everything we've all been through, that anybody would have had any faith in Border Patrol to avoid, to want to avoid a mass casualty incident. But here they were, seemingly, just like willingly causing one. Just to give an example of what the scene looked like, we showed up, things were already pretty bad. Like people were in good spirits, just because, you know, they've been traveling so long, they're glad to finally be there. And having a good sense of humor about things is kind of the only way to survive something horrible like that. People were still kind of in that space when we showed up. We handed out food and water. Most people, even though we had built some really rudimentary tarps structures, people generally opted to just keep walking because they didn't want to just be stuck out there in the cold and rain. And every time we drove back and forth along the wall, we just noticed people getting increasingly more desperate as they realized that they're just stuck out in the middle of the desert in this rain. And to the point where there was just no way to properly triage. There would just be.... We were just sort of bouncing.... Or, instead of actually helping people out, we were just bouncing around from emergency to emergency Yeah, we would be on our way to an emergency and then just see somebody laying in a puddle of water, just in agonizing pain--because even, you know, somebody gets a muscle cramp and can't stand anymore and then they're just laying in the cold and rain. And they don't have warm gear, they don't have anything waterproof. They're just laying there and it becomes a medical emergency just because they're stuck out in the elements in this rainstorm. And so we'd be on our way to some medical emergency and have to drop two people off to go deal with another one and then just hope that another of our trucks would come back to get people. And yeah, we started just having to treat it as--I mean, Ember could speak more to the medical stuff as an EMT--but there were...we had nurses with us and other medical people who essentially just started treating the triage as if it was...as if it was going to be a mass casualty incident. Ember25:55 Yeah, I mean, Friday set historic rainfall records. In Tucson, there was an inch of rain. And there was probably almost that much where we were and we're talking about, you know, winter desert rain. So you know, 4000', almost 4000', elevation, like freezing...almost freezing temperatures and dumping, dumping rain, including large amounts of thunder and lightning. And with the lightning, keep in mind that everybody who's there is against this 30' metal border wall. And so, just a really, really scary situation. And it very quickly became obvious, as Bryce said, that we were...it was going to be way overwhelming for the capacity of the amount of people who are out there to respond to. It kind of started in the morning, there were a few Samaritans', a group out of Tucson and Green Valley, a few Samaritans' vehicles out there and then a few No More Deaths trucks came out. But one of the first things we did when we really understood the scope of the situation was just put out a massive call for more support, which was really inspiring to see really come out that night. But obviously, it takes time for people to mobilize. So we really tried, those of us who were on the ground there really realized, "Okay, this really has the potential to be a really horrific mass casualty situation." And I want to say, I have no illusions about Border Patrol, no illusions about the State giving a shit about people seeking asylum dying in the desert, but I was surprised, based on my experiences in the few weeks prior, I was genuinely surprised that Border Patrol completely refused to come out at all. And once that became clear, I think our plans really changed, because those of us who were responding that day, our plans for the rain were really to try to build, you know, to have some some shelters but fundamentally to keep people okay until they can get picked up by Border Patrol and brought to an actual place to be warm and dry. And as it became clear that Border Patrol was absolutely not going to come that day--and we had Border Patrol liaisons on the phone with them--and they were being pretty explicit about, "Yeah, we can't come. It's raining." Obviously, they can. They have trucks way better than our trucks. And they chose not to at all. And once that became clear, I think our mission really changed quite drastically too, to where, "Okay, we need to get as many people to these shelters and we need to build more shelters, but, fundamentally, we need to get people off the wall, just from a medical perspective." I mean, I was rolling out in the morning with my friend who's a nurse who has been in a lot of disaster contexts and situations and he was like, "Holy shit, this is one of the worst things I've ever seen." **Bryce ** 29:01 I think he said, "This is [emphasis on "is"] the worst thing I've seen." Ember29:03 He said, "This is the worst thing I've seen," and equated it to when he was in Haiti after the earthquake. It was where I think those of us out there were.... Once we realized the extent of the situation and thought that we are going to see a lot of children die today. A lot. You know? It was--and I will preface this by saying that, as we know of, nobody did die that day. And I think that was because of generally just choices of people responding on the ground, people taking care of each other who were out there on the wall, and pure luck of breaks in the rain are the reasons for that. I think it was a situation that could have.... A lot of people absolutely could have and would have died. But, you know, before the rain storm, there had been a lot of conversations about, you know, "Should we be driving people to the substation?" which is, you know, where people can be processed by Border Patrol--that has a certain capacity limit--in the town of Sasabe. And there were a lot of these conversations about the legal risks of that and the potential dangers to people seeking asylum because, to keep in mind, like most people, when we've been out there for the time any of us had been out of the wall, most people wanted rides to the substation. That was, you know, a big thing people wanted and needed. That's where they were trying to get to. And there were all these conversations about the potential dangers of that legal risk. And what we encountered on Friday in the rainstorm was a situation where there was simply no choice. I mean, we were able to have some janky makeshift shelters at two camps along the wall that people, some people, did stay in, and we're trying to treat and warm and dry and triage those people, but there were about 150 people--there was over 300 people out in the wall that day and there was about 150 people who were walking past the last camp the 12 to 15 miles between the camp. And by camp, I mean a very shitty janky tarp structure setup. I don't mean a real camp. But there are about 150 people walking between the town of Sasabe that like 12 to 15 miles from the camp. Those people were out in the rain with no protection whatsoever. And so after we did some triage and made sure that, you know, the people further back on the wall were at one of these makeshift camps, we made the decision--that was not even really a choice--but just fundamentally that like people are going to die if we don't drive everyone to the substation. So we made a choice to evacuate everyone on the road in multiple caravans of trucks and shuttles to the substation while calling Border Patrol, telling them what we were doing, making it clear that it wasn't really a choice, that people people are going to die if they don't get to get to the station. And we weren't really sure how they would react to that. They, Border Patrol, did process everybody that was brought to the station. They got buses down from Tucson. And at the same time, they were being pretty hostile with volunteers that were evacuating people there, including a lot of threats of arrest, that people would be arrested and to "Not be doing this." But no volunteers were arrested. And everybody who was evacuated to the substation was processed within the next chunk of hours. And so, yeah, that kind of changes the whole dynamic in a sense. And the other thing that changed the dynamic is just this massive call for mobilization and support. So a lot of people from Tucson and Arivaca came down to support that evening and we were really in a triage situation all day and night of evacuating the most vulnerable and medically unwell people to the Border Patrol station and trying to do our best to make the makeshift camps slightly safer. But fundamentally, they were extremely inadequate shelters for people in the conditions that we were in. **Inmn ** 33:34 Dang, yeah, that sounds harrowing and just fucking terrible. I I don't have a real emotional response to it because it's just...it's just fucked. But I don't know, it's like this thing where it feels like things we've talked about on the show before with Sophie and Parker from No More Deaths talking to us about Border Patrol's kind of...their tendency to create a humanitarian crisis that they then refuse to respond to. But they, at the same time, you know, they claim to...like, they claim all the time to rescue people from the desert. Or, like, framing themselves as these humanitarian actors when they're the ones who are creating these crises and then completely not responding to them or like.... I don't know, like, hearing more confirmation of discrimination of medical dispatchers and stuff to respond to calls or to pass that off to Border Patrol who then just doesn't respond. I don't know. It's just terrible. And it's like... Like Border Patrol's perfectly capable of responding to these crises, right? **Bryce ** 35:24 Oh, totally and even in this case with the same.... Because eventually they do get everybody. So if they just...they're basically making the choice, in addition to like border wall, asylum, all that stuff, even with the current situation as it is, they're making the choice to leave people out there versus if they just went and got everybody. They say their issue is capacity for processing people. But why not have them wait in Sasabe or near the station or somewhere where they're not in the middle of the desert? They could just go get everybody, bring them to the station, and have them wait where an ambulance can arrive, where people can easily show up and give them help, where they're not just.... I mean, there's vigilantes along the wall, there's like gun battles. For many days, we were hearing automatic gunfire just south of where people were waiting for asylum. Like it's very much even outside of the danger of the desert itself. It is not a good place to be waiting. These people are freaking terrified. But the benefit of them being there for Border Patrol is that they're totally invisible. So they're just sort of hiding what...a thing that should be happening in public view in front of the Border Patrol station, in the middle of the desert where there's just extreme danger. If they wanted to, they could bring everybody to a safer place. It would be bad for PR, because then we'd have a bunch of news articles about like, "All these people are like being kept in an open air detention facility," or whatever. But they're essentially doing the same thing. But because it's far enough away from the public eye and from their own facilities, it just becomes invisible in a way, the same as, you know, Border Patrol's nonsense that they get up to with other kinds of people crossing the border with Prevention Through Deterrence, all of that policy; the suffering really is the point. I think they're hoping that people will tell stories back home that they, "Showed up and things were really bad and we almost died and there was this rainstorm," or whatever, "Don't do it this way." And the same way that their narratives kind of push things on the quote-unquote "smugglers" as being these predatory people that--which they are--but as being like, "It's them that's doing this. They're the ones that are causing this," and just really outsourcing any blame of anything on to on to other people. **Inmn ** 38:05 This situation makes me wonder if Border Patrol is making this conscious choice to, where with open air detention facilities they're--in Arizona at least--are just like, "Oh, we don't want to deal with that." or, "We don't want to deal with the PR. We just don't want to deal with it so we're gonna do this other thing to push people further out or to really invisiblize it," like you're talking about? I mean, that seems like a very Border Patrol thing to do. Which is horrible to laugh about but.... I guess you talked a little bit about Border Patrol's responses to what's going on, or to interventions that people are taking, and I'm just wondering if there's any more, anything more to say about how Border Patrol is reacting to how people are intervening in the situation? **Ember ** 39:09 There's been significant threats of arrest to people as we've continued to evacuate people to the substation, and to people that are just walking to the makeshift camps. There have been continual threats of arrest. Some volunteers had their IDs taken and said they were coming back for them to arrest them. Fundamentally, we feel extremely strongly that, obviously, we would be doing it even if it wasn't legal because it's the right thing to do, because we're not going to...we're going to do what we can to keep people from dying. But fundamentally, we feel very strongly that it is completely legal what we're doing and we will not back down from threats from Border Patrol and have been pretty explicit with them about that, **Bryce ** 40:00 Yeah. Also, after one of those threats of arrest, they did go up to the further camp, which usually is a lot of women and children, and they picked up just a few people. They could have picked up way more. They just picked up a few people and said, "Wait in three lines. We're coming back for the rest." The people all--it was, I think, like, maybe 100 people or so--they all waited in lines. Border Patrol left and then just never came back. And so people ended up standing in lines for hours, thinking that they were going to miss their place in line or mess up if they left the lines. And [it was] just this really cruel display of--and this is right after we got some media attention for the thing that happened during the rain, so maybe [Border Patrol was] punishing them for what we were up to or, you know, who knows how those people think? But that was one thing that we saw. Another thing is, we've actually been caught by Border Patrol while transporting people. And they stopped and essentially thanked us. So there's, in addition to threats of arrest, we've also gotten that, because, I mean, if you're a Border Patrol agent, and you have an...you believe your own bullshit about like, "You're a humanitarian," and all these things, or whatever, then by those standards, hypothetically, we were actually doing your job and you should be thankful for what we're up to by moving people. And this one agent that we've run into a few different times has definitely had that attitude, which is.... Yeah, I don't know whether.... I don't even know how to think about that. But it's made it so that it's given us a little bit more confidence in what we're doing, but also has set up a weird thought of like, "Oh shit. At what point are they going to stop picking people up because they think we're gonna do it? At what point are we really just unpaid fucking Border Patrol agents?" And so I think there's a big.... And even just our role in the camps and all this stuff, like, how much of what we're actually doing to save lives is playing into the wants and needs of the Border Patrol? And so trying to figure out ways to--we have been talking a lot internally about ways to ways to push back on that and sort of change tactics of what we're doing in order to...in order to pressure them to be doing the right thing, rather than this unsustainable thing in which we're clothing, feeding, housing, and triaging hundreds of people a day, which is just like wildly unsustainable. **Inmn ** 43:01 I mean, it seems like this thing that's become very wildly unsustainable. And I know that y'all have recently put out this big call for like, what? For like things needing to be different? Pr like, just like broader kind of community support? Just wondering if y'all wanted to talk about that a little bit? **Ember ** 43:28 Yeah. The calls for support really started to come out of, you know, conversations after a few weeks of folks in our group responding really heavily to the situation and realizing that we needed way more support. And also, I mean, for one, supportive people autonomously responding to the situation outside of our organization, and also more like visiblization what's going on because it was very invisible. There's a few news stories about things going on in other parts of the Borderlands, similar situations, or even worse situations, but really not the attention that the extent of the situation demanded. So those calls for support went out before the rain, but the rain day really amplified it. A lot of people from larger networks in the area came out that night. And it led to huge...way more numbers of people getting involved. And part of it is us really trying to encourage a non--outside of our organization--an autonomous response from more people regionally to the situation that can obviously look a lot of different ways and I don't think any of us presume to know what the best strategy or way to go about this is, but that, you know, making it more visible and having more people being involved is is an important and good thing. And I will add to that, this is obviously a situation going on throughout the Borderlands. But I think we're in a unique position because of where we are, because of our proximity to Tucson because of networks of mutual aid and support that exists in these areas, because of the proliferation of aid groups that exist in these areas, and just generally, yeah, large networks of individuals that are down to support with something like this. I think there's a potential for us to really build a lot of mobilization and support here that hopefully can also help spread and support other places where people are trying to respond to the crisis in their areas, some of which, as Bryce was talking about are, are significantly worse than what's happening here. But it obviously also breeds enormous questions about like, what are we actually doing? What is our role here? And, yeah, and what are we doing? And I don't think, you know, anyone presumes to know the answers to all questions. **Inmn ** 46:06 Yeah, I think in terms of what the role of aid groups is.... Just just wanting to bring up this like, kind of weird, maybe complexity of like, I don't know, it sounds, it sounds really, it sounds really weird to have to put yourself in the position of helping people get to Border Patrol or like helping people get to situations that are a potential open air detention facility or a detention facility that's as hellish as it is out in the desert. But like, I don't know, that.... It seems like a real...it seems a real mindfuck. And I don't know, this isn't really a question, just a thought. **Bryce ** 46:58 It's fucked up. **Inmn ** 47:01 Yeah. Yeah. I was...we talked a little off air about this, but so there has been a little bit of media attention and I know that y'all have not been exactly happy about the media, like what large media sources are saying about what's happening? I was wondering if y'all wanted to talk about what kind of media myths or narratives you see going around that don't reflect what's happening? **Ember ** 47:44 Yeah, and I think on a personal level, just those of us that were out Friday that had been out for weeks before, you know, there have been a lot of conversations about the role of media and our general hesitation with media with most of our other work. But it just became clear that there had to be a significant push for a lot more media outrage about what was going on and about what happened that rainy day, because it was just a question of that this is just going to continue to happen and we need to visibilize this more. There was a journalist, a local journalist, who was out, who came out during the rainstorm and wrote a solid story about what was happening, but the larger mainstream media attention to it has been pretty horrific. I'll say the New York Times came out here a few days ago and wrote a disgusting propaganda piece that basically...it was a piece about how, you know, hordes of people are coming into the country and Border Patrol is overwhelmed and doing everything they can and trying to rescue as many people as they can. But they're so overwhelmed. It felt very much like the liberal media version of like an "invasion of the country," and Border Patrol being overwhelmed. I mean, I think it's really scary that those are the...are the stories that are taking shape in the more kind of centrist or liberal mainstream media with no context of why people are coming here, no context of why people are being pushed out into the remote areas of the desert, no context about how much money Border Patrol has, and their absolute refusal to do their job in this case, which is to process people that are seeking asylum. None of that context. And instead, a story that literally is about, you know, Border Patrol just like trying to do everything they can to save these people being manipulated by smugglers. And it was also in the New York Times, was next to an article about the--kind of fear mongering--about a large migrant caravan that's coming up through Mexico right now. And it just felt very much part of this media narrative that is really just playing into the worst fascist impulses. So, yeah, it was a pretty horrific article. **Bryce ** 50:20 Yeah. And in addition to that, I mean, the New York Times article, in addition to other articles that ended up talking about the rainstorm and some of what we've been dealing with, we're really tucked into a different story about the record number of migrant apprehensions. It seems like all these news media outlets were just sort of waiting for those numbers to get released and then they kind of had these pre-written articles and anything about the humanitarian disaster was just sort of tucked into that, which that narrative is always like, "There's too many people at the border. Border Patrol is overwhelmed," or they're not really interested in any other narrative whatsoever. And, which is just really bizarre, because, I mean, when a journalist comes out and we talk to them, the first thing we explain is [that narrative] is so much the opposite to what we actually see on the ground. Like, the migrant apprehension data is inflated because there's now, rather than people seeking asylum at a port of entry, they're coming through irregularly where that gets put in as a Border Patrol migrant apprehension. So it seems like numbers-wise that there's some huge surge of, you know, the numbers are just off the charts and they've "never seen anything like this before." But these people actually should be under an entirely different system altogether, coming through a port of entry and, in which case, the migrant apprehensions would probably not change that much at all. And so there's this narrative that gets pushed forth where you look at this increase in numbers, which is totally fake, and then you get to show Border Patrol in a place where we've been going out and just seeing...dealing with the most horrific medical emergencies every single day and watching Border Patrol do nothing to stop it and also [Border Patrol is] causing the situation in the first place, and it shows them, like...rescuing people. I think the New York Times article specifically said like, you know, under the caption for one of the pictures, it was like, "Border Patrol's leaves with a group of people and rushes off to go rescue some more people," or something like that, which as you're saying before, it's like, they cause a problem and then give themselves credit for rescues, which is just not...is just upsetting and false and just like, insulting on a human level, you know? **Inmn ** 52:57 Yeah. Yeah, they're really...they're quite...they're quite adept at what they do, which is creating humanitarian crises that they then pretend to respond to so that everyone thinks that they're humanitarian actors. Meanwhile, they're sitting on their asses doing nothing. **Ember ** 53:25 Well, I mean, literally. When we were evacuating people to the station that day, they were sitting on their asses doing nothing, not wanting to get up. "Well, there was a massive rainstorm," and asking us, you know, like, "How do you know these people are cold?" as a question. **Bryce ** 53:42 Yeah, literally. **Ember ** 53:43 That was a question. I was literally asked. And this was with a group of like, mostly children who had been out in the freezing rain and were in severe danger of hypothermia, and they [Border Patrol] literally were like, "How do you know these people are cold?" **Bryce ** 54:00 And then since we started building shelters, they would ask, "Oh, do they have shelter?" using our little like, half-assed, last-ditch effort to fucking have people not die against us or as an excuse to not go pick people up because they have, quote-unquote, "shelter?" You know, I mean, it's just horrific. And Ember, do we have permission to say that correction thing? **Ember ** 54:26 Oh, yeah, I think we should say it. I mean, yeah. **Inmn ** 54:31 I'm so curious about what's going to be said. **Bryce ** 54:32 So, the New York Times, their original article that they published, so we all sat together and read it together and we're like, "Oh!" we're all yelling like, "What the fuck? That's bullshit. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, that's totally..." and we get to the end and see that they have a paragraph saying, "Last friday, Border Patrol had to evacuate 300 people during this rainstorm that almost caused all these deaths," or whatever. And we were just like...I almost threw the computer across the room. It was like, you know, we expected an awful narrative but to have not just a lie but the literal opposite of what happened, like the people that caused the problem.... You know, because it would have been messed up no matter what it was on that day, but we expected, stupidly, Border Patrol to show up in the same way that they had been. And so by not showing up, they actually caused a potential mass casualty incident. So to give them credit for averting something that just outside of anything, any context, just was going to happen, and Border Patrol "rescued" people...and not that some random scrappy punks from Tucson wandered down into the desert and under threat of arrests drove a bunch of people to the Border Patrol station was just like...like, I don't even have words for.... Like, what do you even fucking do with that? Like? Yeah, it's...it was, so we...one of our media people forced them to make a correction. And they quickly did. They didn't fix the rest of the heinous fucking article, but they at least changed that, which they also seem to credit it to Border Patrol. But our person was there during their [NYT's] interview with Border Patrol, and at no point did Border Patrol claim to have rescued anybody on that day. So this was just New York Times on their own just coming up with some bullshit out of thin fucking air. **Ember ** 56:37 And then when they corrected it, they never...there's no note in the article that says a previous version was...had this lie in it and it was corrected. But I will also add that the article on the website was also next to an ad for Exxon Mobil and the other articles next to it were defending the genocide of Palestinian kids because IDF spokesperson says "It's justified." So we also obviously shouldn't be, you know, shouldn't be surprised. **Inmn ** 57:06 Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, we see the same thing over and over and over again, of governments causing horrifying things to happen and then blaming it on some shadowy thing and then taking credit for fixing it. Or making it worse. Wow, yeah, that's fucked up. Like fucking shame. Shame on the New York Times. I know this is not a new thing for anyone to hear, but fucking shame on y'all. Yeah, it's upsetting. It's beyond upsetting. Well, I, you know, I want to end on a positive note. What's some like...what's some inspiring shit? Because also, this is...this is like, I don't know, it's...I feel like it's easy to get wrapped into this, the horrifying reality of like, "Oh, we're just doing Border Patrol's job for them." Or, like, "How sustainable is this?" But y'all I've been doing...like, people have been doing some truly inspiring shit and I think that's like really worth reflecting on and y'all will continue to do really amazing things to respond to these horrifying things. **Bryce ** 58:42 But also, just right afterwards, the huge community mobilization that happened and continues to happen has just been not surprising but just really amazing like knowing that in some situations like this people can just…the Tucson community will just throw down so hard and so quickly for some shit is just… like I think brought us all to tears the next day when we went down to collect donations and stuff. **Inmn ** 1:00:13 Yeah, the supply drives have been wild. Like that's... Yeah, I don't know. Ember, you got any inspiring shit to go out on? **Ember ** 1:00:25 I mean, everything Bryce said. And just like, I mean, the night with the rainstorm, where it's like, what we really realized we needed at a point is just like, people are building tarp structures, people are taking care of each other, but what we really needed at a certain point was just more trucks to drive people and evacuate people to the substation. And we would just get, kind of, convoy after convoy, late in the evening and at night of friends or people we don't even know, through our networks, coming down. And it was really fucked up because it wasn't Border Patrol, who we needed to fucking pick people up. But to just see so many people come out on really last minute notice and be able to help with evacuating lots of people, what we needed was those vehicles and more and more people. And people really showed up and continue to show up. And it's the same thing people are doing all over the country in response to this, you know, from cities where people are mobilizing to support asylum seekers that are, you know, just being dropped off in random cities, and to just like other places along the border where people are responding to this at its inception point at the wall. Like, it's really.... Yeah, the amount of mobilization is pretty awesome, just people like trying to take care of each other on all levels. **Inmn ** 1:01:52 Are there any things you want to say before we...before we break? Any, you know, broader call things people who are listening hundreds or thousands of miles away can do? **Ember ** 1:02:12 I think, you know, on a small scale people are gonna do what they can in the places they are, but on a larger scale, it's like...a lot of these media narratives, a lot of the right-wing push, all of that is really going to continue to grow and push for harsher, gnarlier border policies. And I think that really the thing that can push back against that is people mobilizing together and organizing against it. And I do think there is power for...or potential for, with enough, you know, people, power for things to actually not get gnarlier but, you know, go in the other direction. And I think we really have to keep that in mind that we can't just submit to the idea that, you know, the right-wing and the mainstream news outlets are just gonna push this narrative and policies are gonna get stricter and stricter. Like, we have power to push back against that as people everywhere, mobilizing and organizing together. **Inmn ** 1:03:18 Great. Well, I mean, you know, not great, but...shit. Great that people are doing great things in response. I'm a little emotionally dead end right now because this...because everything's just really fucked. Thanks, you all so much for coming on today and talking about what's going on. And, you know, if anyone in the Arizona area wants to donate 4x4 trucks, donate your 4x4 truck. **Ember ** 1:03:58 It will die a glorious death. **Bryce ** 1:04:03 Yeah, a couple of trucks have already died on the border wall roads. So, trucks are very needed. **Ember ** 1:04:11 I will add too, obviously, we preface it that we're just talking about this one area, but maybe we could link in the show notes to just some of the other struggles of other groups and communities, you know, pushing back and mobilizing for similar shit. **Inmn ** 1:04:28 Yeah. **Bryce ** 1:04:30 I mean, yeah, it's all over too. I mean, the stuff in California has gotten a lot of coverage. But also in Texas this stuff is happening just as much. So it's really like border wide. And it's somehow managed to be pretty invisible or co-opted into other narratives. But yeah, pushing...pushing back on that I think is super important. **Inmn ** 1:04:52 Cool. Well, thanks y'all for coming on today. Hope you get some rest. **Bryce ** 1:05:02 Yeah, thank you. **Inmn ** 1:05:07 Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this show, then do what you can to fight border militarization and do what you can to support asylum seekers in your city. Or go out and respond. If you're near a place where similar things like what's happening in Arizona and Sasabe are happening, then go out and get involved, see what you can do to help. And also, if you like the show, you can support it. You can support the show by liking, subscribing, following, and whatever.... These words are.... I'm clearly actually detached from how the algorithm works. And you can also just tell people about the show. It's one of the better ways to support it and one of, just one of the best ways that people hear about the show. You can also support Live Like the World is Dying by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is a radical publishing collective. We put out books, zines, and other podcasts, obviously. And you can support Strangers by buying books. You can support Strangers by listening to our other podcasts, like my other podcast, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, or our other podcast, The Spectacle, which was formerly the Anarcho Geek Power Hour. You can also support Strangers by supporting us on Patreon. If you support us on Patreon, for $10 a month, then we'll mail you a cool zine every month, anywhere in the world. And you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And if you support us at $20 a month, then we will give you a really awesome thank you at the end of all of our podcasts, which are the names that you usually hear. And what I think is really cool about the acknowledgments tier of our Patreon is that you can put whatever! You know you can put whatever name you want there and we will thank and acknowledge it. So, you know, come up with a cool name or a cool organization that you want people to about like six times a month and we'll thank it. We will thank those things. And speaking of which, we would like to thank Patolli, Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thanks y'all so much for all of your support and making this show and so many other shows possible. And you know, to let people know, our Patreon goes to support, you know, broader things that Strangers does, but it also goes to support people who helped create the show. We pay our audio editor and our transcriptionist and maybe one day we'll be able to pay guests or hosts. But currently...currently, we can't do that. But yeah, anyways, I hope that everyone's doing as well as they can with everything that's going on. And we will see you next time. Bye. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, we have a short story about prepping called "Blood, Soil, & Frozen TV Dinners" by Matthew Dougal. It's a parody about two right-wing preppers who are faced with a collapse in society. After the story, there's an interview with the author about prepping mentalities and writing. This episode was reposted from the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast. The story can be read at tangledwilderness.org. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Reader The Reader is Bea Flowers. If you would like to hear Bea narrate other things, or would like to get them to read things for you check them out at https://voicebea.wixsite.com/website Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Theme music The theme song was written and performed by Margaret Killjoy. You can find her at http://birdsbeforethestorm.net or on twitter @magpiekilljoy Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: “Blood, Soil, & Frozen TV Dinners” with Matthew Dougal **Inmn ** 00:16  Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Inmn Neruin, and today we have something a little different. I host another podcast called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness where every month we take a zine that Strangers puts out and turn it into an audio feature and do an interview with the author. We had a two-part feature called Blood, Soil, and Frozen TV Dinners by Matthew Dougal, and it is a short story about prepping from a very strange perspective, that of two right-wing preppers facing a mysterious collapse of society. This short story is a parody and I promise that the two main pov characters are not the heroes of the tale. It's a fun story and I do an interview with Matthew afterward about prepping mentalities, fiction, and other neat stuff. If you like this episode, check out my other podcast that this is featured from. I did not re-record the outro, so you'll get a little taste of Margaret playing the piano, because she wrote the theme music for the Strangers podcast. You'll also get to hear our wonderful reader, Bea Flowers narrate the story. Follow along with the transcript or at Tangledwilderness.org where you can read all of our featured zines for free. But before all of that, we are a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network.  [sings a simple melody] **Bea ** 02:49 “Blood, Soil, & Frozen TV Dinners” by Matthew Dougal. Read by Bea Flowers. Published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness.  Katie sat, wide-eyed, beneath the kitchen table and hugged her knees to her chest. She was shaking, vibrating visibly. Tanner put his finger to his lips and prayed that her silent tears would remain just that. There was no time to stop and calm her down. Not again. He moved slowly around the kitchen, fumbling through cupboards and pulling out pre-wrapped packages of food. Always be prepared. Tanner had practiced this before things went dark, but it was different doing it for real. His hands hadn't been so shaky, back then.  A noise, on the porch. His body froze before his mind registered the sound. Tanner dropped into a crouch and crossed the room to the window, willing every cell in his body to radiate confidence toward his baby girl. His hand found the Glock 17 at his belt and he brought it up in front of him, the familiar feel of the grip reassuring. He took a breath, steadied himself, and raised his eyes to the level of the windowsill. The muscles in his thighs steeled and he remained, unblinking, utterly still, staring out into the darkness.  After thirty or forty nerve-twanging seconds, Tanner drew breath and relaxed. His quads were burning, and they thanked him as he straightened. He could hear the specter of his ex-wife in his head, telling him to lose some weight, exercise more… Well she'd left, and that was 135 pounds gone right there. She'd probably say that was a good start.   An unbearably loud ringing pierced the silence and sent him diving to the floor, landing awkwardly on his gun and sounding a crash through the kitchen. A keening whine came from under the table, Katie shaken from her silence.  The doorbell.  Feeling foolish, Tanner twisted over his shoulder and hissed at his daughter to be quiet. Still prone, he crawled toward the hallway in the most reassuring manner he could manage and pointed his Glock at the front door.  Footsteps outside, then a shadow appeared at the window. Tanner's heart pounded in his ears—more violent pulses of silence than sound—and his vision blurred as panic flooded his body. He'd heard the early reports of armed groups in the streets, some sort of fighting downtown, but he hadn't really believed they would come here. His legs were weak, and he silently thanked God that he was already on the floor. The shape at the window didn't move, frozen in the gloom, silhouetted by flickering light coming from the street. As Tanner's head cleared he tried to take stock of what was happening.  The apparition was vaguely man-shaped but shorter and slighter, an ethereal grace evident even in its stillness. A voice called out, muffled through the door, the guttural singsong completely at odds with the sleek form at the window. Tanner couldn't understand everything, but he thought he caught the words “little girl.” A second shape mounted the porch alongside the first, similarly short but squat and stocky, and grunted something to its companion in an alien tongue. Fluorescent light flooded the yard and the voices momentarily disappeared beneath the growl of an angry engine. Tanner's breath caught. His trembling finger hovered over the trigger and he willed the barrel to still its swaying dance. Two shots exploded outside—loud shots, from a much bigger gun than his. The creatures spun to face this new threat, their chatter rising in pitch and speed. They sounded panicked.  “yalla! hawula' alnaas majnoon.” Tanner sensed his opportunity. He was forgotten. All those hours of training kicked in and muscle memory took over as he rose to one knee, took a two-handed grip, and unleashed a furious hail of fire at his front door.  “Keep your filthy hands off my daughter!” He fired until he felt the Glock stop kicking, the magazine spent. As the cacophony faded he realized he was screaming.  “Tanner! It's me, Blake. Stop shooting goddammit, they're gone.”  “Blake?” Tanner mechanically reloaded his gun. “Why…” His throat was raw, his voice barely audible even to him. He swallowed, fighting to control his breath, and cleared his throat. “What are you doing here?”  “Come to see if you were okay. Figured you and the kid might need a hand.”  A stocky, heavily muscled figure wearing fatigues and a plate carrier stepped up to the porch, visible through the splintered ruins that had been the front door. A halogen glow lanced through the holes, like the brilliant aura of some kind of avenging eagle.  “When this shit spread across the river from the city we locked down. It was touch-and-go for a while, but things quieted down eventually. When they did, I came straight over. Good thing I got here when I did. The quick little fuckers ran for it, but I think you hit one of ‘em.”  The figure stopped, pulled down the red, white and blue bandana covering its mouth, and spat. Tanner had never been more relieved to see his buddy's foul-mouthed face. Or his M1A SOCOM 16 rifle.  “We're alright.” Tanner's voice was exhausted, his body shivering as the adrenaline fled. “Thank God I was prepared. Still, it's good to see you.”  “Prepared, shit.” His buddy grinned. “I been telling you for years to get something heavy duty.” Blake kicked the splintered remains of the door and his grin faded. “You can't stay here. Those things'll be back. Grab your girl and jump in the truck. Let's head to mine, she'll be safe there.” The grin returned.“Prepared, shit.”  An hour later they were sitting in “the Hole,” as Blake affectionately called it. The Hole was both name and description, although it perhaps undersold the amount of effort that had gone into its construction. Attached to the garage by a short, downward-sloping corridor, The Hole was a full-blown bunker that spread underneath almost the entirety of Blake's backyard. Tanner was sitting in the main chamber eating Top Ramen, chicken flavor.  They had made the half-mile journey in silence—lights down on the Tacoma, Tanner jumpy, Blake grim, Katie in a state of shock. The streets had looked completely foreign, the usual calming glow of LEDs replaced by the orange flicker of scattered flames. The familiar hum of traffic had been gone. Instead, gunfire had cracked in the distance.  Blake's wife Lauren had buzzed them inside after Blake confirmed his identity via video feed—three times: at the gate, the door, and the entrance to the Hole. The security was impressive. Lauren had ushered them inside, AR-15 at the ready. “This is prepared,” Blake was saying, as Katie stared blankly at her untouched ramen. “Old owners, they had this backyard full of fruit trees, vegetables, fuckin' kale and kohlrabi. What good is that gonna do, I said, you gonna hide in the pumpkin patch with a slingshot? Idiots.  “Anyhow me and Lauren, we wanted to be ready, so I been building this the last two years. Ain't no one knows about it, not even the contractors…” Blake sliced a finger across his throat, then laughed, “I'm joking, but they were from one of them Mexican countries. Had no idea what they were building. Good workers, though, came here the right way. And I did the security all myself.”  Tanner laughed too, but at what he didn't quite know. “You took this all real serious.”  “Yessir. You never really believed, but we did. Earl Swanson was right, this here's been a long time coming. It's just like he said, and we listened. And here we are, while you was laying on the floor waving round that little waterpistol of yours.”  Tanner had listened too, but apparently not well enough. There was only so much time he could watch an angry man on TV shouting about the state of the nation, no matter how prophetic he was turning out to be. Tanner tried to put up a strong front and flex his knowledge. He had listened, dammit.  “Is this it, then? The invasion? Earl said they've been preparing it for years, brainwashing people. Recruiting sympathizers and traitors…”  “It's worse than that. The invasion started way back, we just didn't notice. Well, most of us didn't. Earl did. He tried to warn us, that the aliens'd started infiltrating, landing in remote parts of the country, blending in, looking just like us…” Blake spat. “Well, not quite like us. But close e-fucking-nough, hiding out and biding their time.” “And now it's out in the open…” Tanner looked from his friend's face to his daughter's, scared and staring, and trailed off. He may have been listening, but he sure as hell didn't understand.  “What's happening?” Tanner asked. “We've been laying low at home, locked down and trying to wait out whatever this is. We haven't heard a thing since the power cut out three days back.”  He could feel a surge of emotion building, pent-up adrenaline and stress and fear and loneliness rolling over him in a wave as they were released. His stoicism wobbled.  “We're… Katie's scared and confused, and tired and sick of hiding and we're all alone! What is all this? What's happening?” Tanner realized he was shouting and stopped, taking a deep breath and lowering his voice. “Blake, man, what the hell is going on?” Blake never flinched, just ran his tongue over his teeth in thought while he watched Tanner's outburst through hooded eyes. “Naw, we don't know nothing for sure. Swanson's been off-air for two days, since just after shit started going down. Said he was right, that it sure as shit seemed like those aliens he'd been warning us about were making a move, and the whole fuckin' lot of us did nothing. Well, seems like it blew up in our face. Last thing he said was he's heading somewhere safe to keep broadcasting, and he'd let us know when he found out more,” Blake paused, sucked his teeth, “We've had the TV and radio on non-stop since then, since we fired the generator up. Nothing.”  Lauren lent forward. “There was something, couple days back…”  “Nothing useful,” Blake cut in. He spat. “Same old fuckin' commie stations, same old crap. They took over the channels, emergency broadcasting. Said there was a ‘protest.' Stay inside, all under control, daddy government's here, blah blah,” he laughed “Hell of a protest. More like an insurrection. Doublespeak bullshit.”  “So what's the plan? We hide out? Lay low? Wait for the military?”  “The troops ain't coming, chief.” Blake grimaced, “Alien tentacles go deep. Probably strolling around in general's stars by now, the politicians just handing over the keys. This President'll have us kissing their feet before dinner.  “Nah, if we wanna fight back we can't rely on that fuckin' bunch of secretaries and scribes. We hole up here, wait for instructions.” He laughed again, “Huh, hole up in the Hole. That's funny.”  That grin was starting to get on Tanner's nerves. “Instructions from who? How long is that gonna take? Who's gonna fight back against… this?” “I know some people, from back in the old days. Good people. There's still patriots out there who won't give up this country without a fight.”   Tanner still bristled with questions, but he was starting to feel relieved. There were people in charge, and they had a plan. That was something he could work with. “What if it takes weeks? Months? Do we have food for that long?” Blake settled further into his chair, grinned that cocky grin. “I do, don't know about you.” Before the words were even out of his mouth he was already raising his palms, “Chill out, I'm joking. I'll put it on your tab. You're a lawyer, I know you're good for it. Show him, babe.”  Lauren got up and went over to a large yellow flag hanging on the concrete wall, pulling it aside to reveal a long, narrow room that ended abruptly at a large steel door. She flicked on the light.  “Dry storage,” she said, gesturing at the shelves lining both walls. Packets of ramen, boxes of cereal, rows of whiskey, and gleaming stacks of cans stared down at Tanner. “And cold storage,” Lauren continued as she stepped over to the door, kicking aside two enormous tubs of supplements and pulling it open to reveal a walk-in freezer. Tanner followed her inside as she happily chatted away, showing everything off like a house-proud hen.  “We've got everything we need. Steaks, hotdogs, chili, hamburgers, mac and cheese, chicken parmesan, mashed potatoes--whatever you want. There's a well, too, over the other side, we had that dug last summer. Tastes a bit funny, but it won't hurt you.” Tanner was hardly listening. He had never seen anything like it, never imagined anything on this scale. Blake really had taken preparing for the end of the world seriously. The freezer room was filled, wall to wall, with a treasure trove of gourmet excess; thousands upon thousands of frozen TV dinners.  Tanner stared at his microwaved salmon filet, fries drooping from his fork. Out of habit he was eating in front of the TV with Katie, though the display hadn't changed in… however many days it had been. Just the red, white and blue logo, a tile flipping between ads for pillows, brain pills, and frozen food, and the same scrolling red banner:  Breaking: The United States of America is under attack. Stand by for updates.  Katie was poking at her food silently, barely eating. Still no appetite. Tanner had told her they were safe, told her he wasn't going to let anyone hurt her, told her a hundred times in different ways that she was his precious little girl and he would make sure she was okay. It had made no difference. She had just looked up at him with big, frightened eyes that pulled at Tanner's heart. The only time she had spoken in the past 24 hours was to ask why he had tried to shoot people. Of course she didn't understand. Maybe he should ask Lauren to talk to her.  The TV display glitched, blipped, flicked to static and then to black. Tanner shoveled the fries into his mouth and rubbed his eyes. He'd been staring at a blank TV for too long. He chewed and stretched, squeezing his eyes shut and trying to straighten out his aching back.  Earl Swanson was on TV. Tanner blinked a few times to make sure he was seeing straight. Swanson's shirt was wrinkled, his hair a mess and his signature bowtie slightly crooked, but his face wore that familiar expression of righteously indignant bewilderment. It was him.  “Blake. Blake, get in here!”  Swanson was in what looked like a large living room rather than his usual studio. Bookshelves and a TV cabinet were visible behind him. There were shadows under his eyes and his wrinkles were clearly visible without his usual TV makeup, but his eyes were as sharp as ever. There was a strength to them, piercing the screen, full of faith and fire. It felt like he was in the room. He looked like he'd been in a fight, and won. He was back.  “Good evening America, and welcome to Earl Swanson Tonight.” “Blake!” Blake stuck his head through the door.  “What? I'm working out, give me a…. No shit.” Blake stepped into the room. He was topless, breathing heavily. His stomach was shiny with sweat, pooling and running down the chiseled channels between his well-defined muscles before disappearing behind the low-riding waistband of his camo pants. Tanner realized he was staring and felt his cheeks flush as he snapped his eyes back to his friend's.  “Blake, it's--” “Shut up, I'm trying to listen.” The rebuke slapped Tanner back to the present and back to the TV. He surreptitiously sat a little straighter and sucked in his gut, trying to ignore the heat rising in his face. “...cities up and down the west coast. From Seattle to San Diego, the alien invaders and the traitors from among our own citizens have taken control, sowing chaos and destruction. Order has broken down, and anarchy rules in the streets. Yet we hear nothing but silence from the White House. The elites in Washington won't do anything about this -- they encouraged it. They caused it! “No, it is up to patriotic Americans to stop this existential threat. It is up to us, to you and me and the other patriots out there. If you value the American way of life, if you respect the principles that built the greatest nation ever imagined, if you care about your family and the future of your children, then the time has come to stand up. Your country needs you.  “I have been warning about this day on this very program for years. If you have been listening, you will be prepared for this betrayal. You know what to do. Find other true Americans who are ready to fight for our civilization and our culture. Defend our Western values against this attack by anarchists and aliens who wish to destroy us. They tried to take our guns from us, to disarm us, and failed -- now is the time to use them. Seek out the prepared, the militias, the heroes. Fight back. Show them that we will not allow it. “I will be moving to an undisclosed safe location so I can keep you informed. You know your job. I am doing my part, will you do yours?” Swanson sat erect and defiant, no less commanding for his disheveled appearance. His willpower flowed from the screen in waves, washing over the watchers. It was compelling. It was urgent. It was the only option.  The screen went black.  Swanson's gaze bored into Tanner long after the TV went dark, burning with righteous fire, lip curling with fury. The heat in Tanner's cheeks sharpened, focused, began to spread into his chest and throughout his body. There was only one thought in his mind. “We gotta go.” It took him a second to realize that Blake had spoken the words out loud.  “We do. But where? I don't know anyone like that.” “You know me, and I know people. Don't worry about that. We gotta go to Baker City. I talked to one of my buddies from the marines this morning, he's headed to join one of the militias out east. They might not be big, but they're hard. They're something.” Tanner looked at Blake blankly, unable to quite comprehend what he was being told. Days of no news, no action, now everything all at once.  “But what's in Baker City? Don't you know anyone here? This is where we live, where we have the Hole, where we have a safe base.”  Blake was clearly agitated, shifting from foot to foot.  “It's not safe. Weren't you listening? It's fallen. The military ain't doing jack, like I fuckin' told you they wouldn't.” Blake stopped bouncing and steadied himself. “But my buddy said the boys in Baker held out. It was bloody, but they held strong. If we can get there in a hurry, we can join a caravan heading for Boise.”  “Baker… Boise? What the… Boise?! Surely it's safer in Texas, or… or…”  “Texas? And how far away is that? Look, I don't know nothing about nothing, but I know I ain't looking for safer. All I know is I got buddies in Baker, and they say Boise, and they are the fuckin' resistance. We got our orders, soldier. “The west had been invaded. Destroyed. Gone. You heard Swanson, same as me. Grids are down, water's down, TV's down--mostly, anyway. Sky's half full of fire and smoke, gangs roaming the streets, traitors and aliens taking or breaking whatever they can get their thieving hands on.” Tears came to Blake's eyes.  “It's a fucking mess out there, buddy. Anarchy. They've burned the lot.” It was a lot to chew on. Tanner put a piece of salmon in his mouth.  “I'm not gonna let some filthy aliens take my home, fuck my wife, invade my country, and steal the god damn US of A! The fight is right there, and I'm gonna fight it. Are you?”  Tanner's brain was spinning, but his blood was still hot from Swanson's speech. Blake's fire, delivered standing there half-naked like a Steven Seagal action figure, was rousing something inside him. His country needed him, and he felt the call in his bones. He put down his fork. He swallowed. He rose.  “Of course I'll fight. I'll put a bullet in every alien who steps foot on American soil. I'll put every collaborator in the dirt.” He saw himself, next to Blake, riding shotgun as they made a fighting escape through the streets. He saw a heroic journey to Baker City, filled with danger and righteous violence. He saw a triumphant return, at the head of an army, cleansing his city with purifying flame. And he saw Katie, small and fragile and beautiful. Perfect, and terrified. The flame wavered.  “But I'm fighting for her,” Tanner gestured, “I got my little girl, and I'm not so red-hot on riding out guns blazing to meet these savages with her hanging off my arm. She's the future of this country, and that's a future we have to protect.”  To Tanner's surprise, Blake took a half step back.  “Shit. I know, man. Katie and Lauren, the innocent and the pure. I'm thinking of them, too.” He dropped his shoulders, but held Tanner's gaze. “But it's not safe for them here neither. We're on our own, and all hell has broken loose up top. We fight for them, and they are the reason we have to fight.” Tanner paused, then nodded. He reached out and placed his hand on his friend's shoulder, fingers gripping the sweaty skin.  “Let's go pack the truck.”  As the sun set and twilight brought a low fog creeping across the city, they piled into the Tacoma with as many frozen dinners as they could carry.  Tanner rode in back. Lauren was up front, AR at the ready, while Blake drove, M1A by his side and his Glock taped to the dash. Katie was at Tanner's side, curled up below the window and hidden from view, and Tanner watched over her with his own Glock and a borrowed Remington 870. They were all a little jumpy. He and Lauren had wanted to maintain a shoot-on-sight policy. Blake had been more cautious. According to Swanson, there would be plenty of people collaborating with the aliens. Lights out, engine low, and hopefully they could slip right on by.  No one knew what to expect—Tanner suspected they were all terrified. He certainly was. Even Blake had swapped out his flag bandana for a more understated camo print. He had stashed the red, white and blue fabric in the bed of the truck with the rest of their gear.     They pulled out into streets Tanner knew, but didn't. He had driven them every day, on the way to work, to Katie's school, to church, to the mall. The streets were as familiar as a cold Coke, yet now, in some important way, they were… different. As they left the Hole and drove through the suburb he couldn't quite put his finger on it, but once Blake reached the main street and turned past the bars and shops and take-out joints, it hit him.  The streets were dead. The cars were gone. The steady flow of traffic, of people living their lives, had stopped. The parking lot in front of the drug store was empty; so was the one behind the bar. The convenience store, normally ticking over with a steady stream of customers buying cigarettes and beer, was dark behind its windows. Unintelligible graffiti in some alien script covered the ads for energy drinks, an expression of mindless violence across someone's hard work.  A light rain had started, misting around them and adding to the dreariness. A billboard loomed overhead, the lights that illuminated the Colgate-bright smiles of the models now permanently dark. Tanner was glad—the gloom obscured the flame-scarred destruction streaking the toothpaste company's perfect white message. “Disgusting,” Blake spat. He looked like he wanted to say more but pulled up short, shocked at the sudden sound of his own voice. His eyes focused back on the road and he fell into uneasy silence. The truck continued its crawl down the deserted street, barely clocking 20 miles an hour. Even at that speed, the low growl of the engine seemed unbearably loud as it reverberated among the carcasses of commerce and ricocheted down abandoned side streets.  They kept driving, and nothing kept happening. It was torturous. Every minute of unbroken inactivity twisted the crank on the tension in the car, until the unceasing hum of the engine began to seep into Tanner's brain. Every muscle in his arms and legs, primed and waiting and ready to spring, began to tremble, and his eyes focused and unfocused on nothing at all.  His frantic heartbeat messed with his breathing, a powerful panicked thud that matched the rumble of the pistons.  Overall, he was relieved when the road curved and they entered a strip of restaurants to see signs of life among the debris littered across the street in the distance.  It wasn't immediately clear through the gloom what was happening. Blake slowed the truck, now rolling along at barely more than walking pace, and they crept closer. The scene was illuminated by the flickering light of small fires and backlit by a pair of enormous floodlights, creating a glowing aura in the surrounding mist. Images began to resolve, ghostly figures flitting in and out of view and the harsh geometric shapes—not of debris, but of hastily manufactured barricades—throwing long shadows that lanced through the air around them as they approached.  All eyes were fixed on the barricades as they pulled within shouting distance, and Tanner nearly pissed himself when someone knocked on his window. He yelped, Blake swore, and Lauren's weapon x-rayed Tanner's head and pointed at the intruder. Tanner followed her lead and jerked his gun up to aim in the general direction of the window and for ten, twenty heartbeats nothing moved. Then another knock, and Blake hissed at them: “Put those things away you idiots, we're the good guys here. Whatever side that guy is on, so are we.”  Tanner slowly lowered the gun, then the window.  “Hey folks, no cars through here.” The man was clad head to toe in black—black jeans, black hoodie, black gloves, black bandana covering his face, black curly hair running with rainwater. No wonder they hadn't seen him. The stranger spotted their guns.  “Oh, nothing like that,” he added, catching the nervous energy in the truck, “You're a bit late to the party. No trouble ‘round here, this area's been cleaned out for days.” He chuckled, sending a shiver through Tanner.  “Some folks messed up the cop shop a while back, it was a bit of a fight. Streets were all blocked up anyway, so we set up a little kitchen here. Been feeding some folks. Symbolic, like, new world in the ruin of the old and all that.” The smile fell from his face as he took in the scene in the truck.  “Everything alright? Is she okay?”  He gestured at Katie, curled up and quivering silently beside Tanner. Tanner opened his mouth to respond, but Blake was quicker. “Sure, probably just spooked by that fucking mask. Look, we don't mean to bother you people. Just heading east, trying to cross the river. We'll go around you and your little kitchen.”  If the man took issue with Blake's tone, it didn't show.  “Bridge is a no-go, I'm afraid. Pigs blew the cables as they pulled out, some of it collapsed. It's way too unstable to cross.” He scratched at his temple. “What d'you want out that way, anyway? There's dangerous people out there, not exactly safe for… families.”  “We're heading for, uh, Hood River,” Tanner spoke up, “Taking supplies out to the girl's grandparents.”  “Indians,” Blake chimed in, “they need the help.” He winked at Tanner.  The stranger turned to Blake and met his eyes, holding his gaze for an unnerving moment. Then he seemed to resolve some internal discussion, relaxing his shoulders. “Well, you might be able to get across up St. Johns, last I heard the bridge was still intact. There's some folks in the park up there, you can ask them.”  “St. Johns? That's the wrong fucking way!”  “A bridge is a bridge. It's that or swim, champ.” “Can you at least call the, uh, your boss? Tell him you checked us out, ask if we can get across?”  The man smiled, but something hardened behind his eyes.  “My boss? Sure, sure. Look, I think it's time you moved on. Head on up there and tell ‘em what you told me, they'll let you out. There's a bunch of poor Indians waiting for their dinner.”  There was something strange about the way the man said “Indians,” but he patted the hood of the truck and turned away, waving them down a side street away from the barricade. As Blake slowly drove off, Tanner collapsed back into his seat and quickly rolled up the window. His underarms were cold with sweat, and he relaxed muscles he hadn't known were clenched.  Blake took the turn the stranger indicated, muttering that if he heard anyone say “folks” again he would hit them. Tanner stared out the window at the “little kitchen” as they passed. There must have been a couple hundred people, milling around a dozen or so small fires. They were all loosely centered around a large tent directly in front of the scorched skeleton of the precinct. Laughter and music drifted through the open window, and Tanner closed it. He didn't think he could see any aliens, but it was difficult to tell in the dark.  “Collaborators. Must be a ration station or something,” he muttered, mostly to himself.  Lauren heard him. “No, this has been going on much longer than that, it just wasn't so out in the open. Swanson warned us about it. He said they lure hungry people in with food.”  “Yeah,” cut in Blake, “this is how they recruit ‘em. Set up a kitchen, give ‘em food, homeless and crackheads and queers, mostly. Drugs too, probably, and spewing their propaganda. That guy was probably one of the junkies. Sure as shit looked like it, you see the way he stared at me?”  Tanner shuddered. A junkie. He had an overwhelming urge to wash his hands. He remembered the way the man had talked about the police station, his manic laugh in the face of such violence, and glanced back at the quickly fading light. And saw a small figure, tottering at the edge of the firelight. A child.  “Disgusting,” he said out loud.  “Yeah, disgusting. It's like Earl said,” Blake continued, “they been feeding people right under our fucking noses.”  They drove on toward the bridge. The streets were more cluttered here, both with people and the remnants of the riots, and they could only manage a slow pace as they picked their way through the destruction. Blake had to swerve to the wrong side of the road to avoid a group of people carrying trash bags, picking through the rubble.  “Looking for something to eat,” he grunted, and locked the doors.  Signs of violence were everywhere. Tanner's chest tightened as they drove past the law firm where he had started his career—the job that had brought him to the city after he finished college, working for his father's best friend and learning his profession. Inside the shattered windows it was nothing but a shell, the desks overturned and the computers gone. No one would be working there any more.  The destruction was completely random. Violence for its own sake. Beside the firm was a pawn shop, covered in graffiti and looted. Next to that, a Vietnamese restaurant, completely unharmed except for ‘Delicious, 5 stars' sprayed on the pavement outside. Across the road was an untouched convenience store and a bookshop with its doors wide open, light flooding out and people crowding the entrance. A donut shop and an Apple store destroyed, a mechanic and a bar looking like they had simply closed for the night. There was absolutely no pattern or reason to it.  They saw a Fred Meyers with every window broken, the front door jammed open with a twisted shopping cart. A movement caught Tanner's eye and he saw someone leaving from a side door, carrying a huge bag of stolen food. He hoped Blake didn't see—he might do something stupid, and Tanner didn't want to stop. It wasn't safe.  They made it a few more blocks when Lauren gasped and grabbed Blake's arm, making him brake. She gestured across the intersection to a KFC. Half the building had collapsed in what must have been an enormous fire; the half that still stood had been savagely attacked. She pointed to the entrance with a shaking finger. Someone—or something—had toppled the giant bucket sign and sent it crashing through the ceiling of the kitchen. Above the door, someone had scrawled a message in red spray paint:  FUCK YOU SANDERS OUR SECRET SPICES NOW There were more barricades set up near the bridge. Where the others had been makeshift, marking a boundary, these were more serious. They were to stop people getting through. Blake slowed before they got too close to the blockade, which they could now see was lined by shapes that very much suggested people. On both sides of the road the land fell away into darkness, sloping down to become a park that ran beneath the bridge.  The park itself, a rare green space normally dotted with dog walkers and children, was transformed. The once-quiet lawns were a mass of tents and makeshift structures, stages and bars and sound systems, the proud trees now decked out with effigies and lights. Fires burned everywhere, and the distant space was carpeted with a swarming mass of humanity, undulating to a throbbing cacophony of noise.  “This doesn't look good,” said Blake. He pulled over, a hundred yards or so short of the bridge.  “That guy said they would let us through,” said Tanner, “if we stick to our story.”  “He was a junkie,” scoffed Lauren.  “But he thought we were working with them,” said Tanner, “he had no reason to lie to us.”  “I guess it's worth a try. Anyway, they ain't gonna try anything against this much firepower.” Blake grunted. “Too late to change our minds now. They've seen us.”  He nodded at the barricade, where two shapes had detached from the mass. They moved toward the Tacoma, and Blake responded by flicking the lights to high beam and heading to meet them. As Blake swung back out into the road the beams cut through the darkness to illuminate the figures, throwing wild shadows from the two shapes until the truck steadied course and they coalesced into recognisable forms. One was a large man, white, with a nose ring and a loosely-tied blond ponytail. He was wearing a plaid shirt and carrying a large rifle. The other—Tanner's throat caught—the other looked like one of the aliens.  “Shit,” said Blake, as the headlights picked out at least half a dozen more shapes along the barricade, several with big guns visible. “Fuck.” He stopped the truck and rolled down the window, then cursed again and threw open the door.  “I'll be fucked if I'm gonna sit here and be pulled over like some criminal. Tanner, you're with me—let's go meet them man to man.” Tanner scrabbled for the door handle and chased after Blake, half-skipping to catch up. They pulled up a few paces before colliding with the approaching party. The blond man stepped forward.  “How's it going, dude?” he said.  “We need to get to Hood River,” said Blake, “we're trying—” “Yeah, we heard.” The man cut him off. “Bridge is closed to traffic, unfortunately. You wanna cross, you'll have to walk.”  Blake bristled. “Are you joking? We need to bring all this stuff. It's… important,” he objected. “You can't just keep people here!”  “We could,” said the blond man, calmly. He sounded confident in his assertion. Looking at the line of men—and women, Tanner realized—standing along the barricade, he agreed.  “But we're not,” the man continued. “You can go wherever you want. Take your shit, cross the bridge. Some folks have organized buses up the river, they'll take you. But the truck stays.”  “But that's my fucking truck!” Blake squealed. The man's eyebrows shot up and Tanner laid a hand on Blake's shoulder, squeezing it and hoping he got the message. The stranger paused, then sighed.  “Look, I'm sorry dude. I love my truck, too. But there was an attack at another camp last night by these so-called freedom fighters,” he grimaced. “Militia wackjobs, really. Word is they are gathering across the river, and we can't risk weapons and vehicles falling into the wrong hands. Especially not an arsenal like you folks got here.”  The alien stepped forward and, much to Tanner's surprise, spoke in perfect American English.  “Don't worry, it'll be here when you get back. We'll take real good care of it for you. They will appreciate the help guarding the buses and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to help you move these… important supplies.”  They signaled to the group at the barricade and two more figures made their way into the light of the truck's high beams. The first was a slim Black man in fatigues, wearing a red beret at a jaunty angle and carrying a AR-style rifle in one hand. The other was a woman, tall and imposing. She wore a leather jacket over a long black dress, which was slit to the thigh to reveal hints of slim, bare legs that stretched from the pavement to the heavens. Tanner blinked rapidly and swallowed. He had always had a soft spot for long legs in thigh-slit dresses.  As they came closer the man nodded at Tanner and Blake, but he was not what held their attention. The woman with the legs from God was also rocking a luxurious mustache that would have put Teddy Roosevelt to shame. As Tanner's eyes bulged, she caught his gaze and winked.  “Hello, boys. I'm Sunshine, they/them. I'll be with you on the bus.”  Tanner didn't know how to react. A fuzzy memory bounced around in the back of his head. “An investigation on college campuses found that increasing numbers of American citizens are using pronouns.” Earl's bewildered face frowned, then puckered. “These ‘theys' and ‘thems' are making a mockery of the American tradition, seeking to spread their insidious ideology among good, hard-working citizens, brainwashing young Americans into adopting these ‘pronouns.' What's next, people identifying a different age? A different race? We need to speak out against this perverse trend and most importantly, keep them away from our children.” _ That was it. These were the pronouns Swanson had warned them about. He gripped his gun and glanced at Blake, trying to get his mental footing.  Blake looked shocked, too, but quickly pulled himself together. He threw Tanner a sly look, one that hinted at an idea. “Give us a minute,” he snapped, and pulled away from Tanner, back to the truck. When they were both inside he turned on the occupants with a spark in his eyes.  “They must be talking about my boys, alive and kicking,” the old grin was back, his excitement barely contained. “Must have set up in the woods. We'll head over and find ‘em. Maybe they got word from Earl. If they're here, and they're fighting, maybe we don't have to go all the way to Boise after all.” “What's going on?” Lauren looked confused.  “We're leaving the truck. Grab the shit, cross the bridge, hijack their fucking commie-wagon and strike out east. Either we find them in Baker, or our boys find us first.”  Tanner was still coming to grips with the situation. “What about… them?” he said.  “Who?” “They… them. In the dress, with the pronouns!”  “And what are they going to do, stop us? You ever tried to fight wearing something like that? No. The four of us, across the bridge, grab the bus, easy.” “Katie's not hijacking any bus. She's eight, for God's sake. Maybe she and Lauren should stay here…”  “You stay here with Katie,” Lauren snapped, cutting Tanner off. “If you think it's safer, if you're looking for safer, you take her for a nice walk in the park down there. I'll be with my husband, taking my country back from these freaks.”  “I know you want to keep Katie safe,” Blake added, almost apologetically, “but you saw what it's like out there. You heard Swanson's warnings. These aren't people, they're animals, aliens. She's your baby fuckin' girl, man. You do what you're at peace with, but my wife sure as shit ain't staying here to get felt up by some dick in a dress.”  Tanner looked at Lauren. “But she's just a kid! What if she gets hurt.”  “What if she gets hurt _here? So you look after her. Be a man,” Lauren spat back.    Blake clapped Tanner on the shoulder and held his gaze. “It's do or die time, soldier. Let's get the fuck outta here, hook up with the resistance, then bring back the fury of God and freedom and the USA to take back this city and liberate my God damn truck!” Tanner looked at Katie, curled up in the footwell, and wanted to object. He wanted to take her somewhere safe, back to the Hole, where it was warm and they could hide from the aliens and the bad people and they had all the food they could need and they could wait for this all to be over.  But the fire in his belly wouldn't let him. He knew Blake was right, he knew that he should be ashamed of his moments of weakness. He saw Lauren gripping her rifle and staring at Blake with faith and devotion in her eyes and he knew that was the kind of man he wanted to be. Tanner breathed a silent promise to keep Katie safe, no matter the cost.  “Let's do it.” Blake pulled the truck up to the group of guards and they all piled out, Tanner standing straight and feeling tall, Blake's words ringing in his ears. It's do or die time. _ Two of the barricade guards came over to help them unload while the others stood around and watched, their mustachioed escort who made Tanner's skin crawl and the large blond man. Traitor. They stripped off the tray covering and began shifting gear, Blake and blondie up above handing packages down to everyone else. Tanner heard the guards muttering to each other.  “Holy shit, that's a lot of firepower.” The blond man snorted. “And a lot of nasty-ass TV dinners. Important supplies, my ass.”  Sunshine shrugged. “Folks eat what they eat. Not everyone lives in a Whole Foods and learned to make Tom Yum on their gap year,” they rebuked him. The man grimaced and scratched his jaw. “Yeah, right. That was unfair of me. Well, Thai cooking workshop tomorrow and I'll make a big pot, so at least folks here don't have to eat that frozen stuff… unless they want to.” They busied themselves unloading, bundling food and weapons into bags or tying them together for ease of carrying. Tanner was tying the straps of his backpack and settling it on his back when he heard a curse from the back of the truck. He glanced up, and, frozen in time, watched the next few seconds helplessly.  The blond man had pulled out one of the last few satchels, the one containing all their spare clothes. He was standing upright, arms held out, nose ring quivering in silent outrage. In his left hand he had Blake's flag bandana; in his right, Blake's spare jacket, rebel flag patch sitting proudly on the shoulder.  Blake reacted fastest. He dropped the food he was holding, raised his Glock, and with a vengeful crack the blond ponytail exploded in a spray of red.  The man in the beret raised his rifle and fired two shots into Blake's chest, sending him flying from the tray. A scream burst from Lauren as she reached for her gun, but the alien matched the sound and met her with a powerful tackle, sending both of them crashing into a pile of frozen hamburgers. Sunshine reached out and grabbed Tanner's arm. Time snapped back into motion for Tanner. He instinctively pulled away and shook his arm free of the grasping fingers. Stepping back, he spun and swung his fist in a wild roundhouse. It connected with Sunshine's jaw as they overbalanced toward him. Tanner watched them collapse in a heap. His gaze danced over the chaos unfolding around him, frantically searching for Katie. _There. Tanner picked her up and ran.  They plunged off the road and into the darkness. There was only one thought in his mind: get Katie across that bridge. She was sobbing, shaking in his grasp, and Tanner made what he hoped were comforting shushing noises as he ran. He knew this park—there was a staircase inside one of the support towers that rose from the park to the bridge overhead. That was his way out. Holding Katie tightly, breath ragged, he ran toward the orgy of light and noise pulsating below.  The two escapees burst into the mass of people. Tanner looked around, eyes darting, taking in the madness and trying to get his bearings. The sensory assault was overwhelming, but he slowly made out patterns in the polyrhythmic press. What had looked from above like a continuous swell of humanity was actually a hundred, a thousand separate groups and camps and parties. People flowed freely between them, groups forming and merging and coming apart in a chaotic, everchanging anarchy. A makeshift stage to his left throbbed with bass, colliding with the bone-jarring screams and guitars of a group of punks. Tanner found himself surrounded by ecstatic dancers, while a group almost under his feet sat staring into a campfire, oblivious to the rest of the world. He crashed through their doped-out reverie and bounced off two men, locked in a hungry embrace.  Tanner recoiled and turned away, shielding Katie with his body, searching desperately for the tower that would lead him out of this nightmare. Lights flashed, blinding, creating a sort of slideshow of horror as Tanner scanned the crowd. There. He found it. His escape from this festival of the damned. He soldiered on, caught up in a whirl of half-naked dancers, men, women, and everyone else, mindless of the frigid air as they span and writhed in rapture.  Tanner spotted an exit, an island of calm, and dove for it. He exploded from the throng, gasping for air, and breathed in the relative silence. Collecting himself, he was faced with rows of bodies, still, staring at something unseen up ahead, the very air trembling with collective anticipation.  A voice shattered his uneasy reprieve, loud and bombastic and dripping with drama.  “And now, my darlings, it is time for these fuckers to do what I do best—go down!” Tanner dashed through the crowd as they roared and surged into motion, and caught a glimpse of the scene ahead: two lines of people, straining on thick ropes, as a woman in lingerie and feathers pranced like a princess of hell before them. The ropes led upwards, where they were tied around the necks of two enormous metal figures. Lewis and Clark.  Tanner broke into a full sprint, shouldering bodies aside. He was almost there. Up ahead, rising from the chaos, was his stairway to the heavens. His legs trembled and his breath came in ragged sobs, but he couldn't slow down. Not when he was so close. He tore out of the crowd and into the comforting darkness of the spaces in between. His hysterical panic began to subside. One foot in front of the other. Keep running. They were going to make it. As he neared the tower a figure came into view at the base, looming from the shadows of the doorway, staring into the blackness beyond. A stocky, muscled figure wearing fatigues and a plate carrier. It couldn't be… “Blake! Blake, thank God.” Tears welled in Tanner's eyes as he reached his friend. Lauren was nowhere to be seen, but right now Tanner couldn't think about her. He had survived, and he had brought Katie through. His heartbeat was still frantic, but from exertion rather than fear. They were here. He, Katie, and Blake. Emotionally exhausted, physically spent, battered and terrified, but alive. They were going to be okay. He reached out to his friend. Blake turned—No, not Blake. A thick black beard engulfed the shadowy face, momentarily lit by the glowing ember of a huge cigar. The eyes were deep-set and dark, the skin weathered, wrinkled, brown. The face of an illegal alien.  Tanner's throat betrayed him. He squeaked, and nothing more would come out. His knees wobbled and threatened to give way, his feet froze in place. He wavered. He whimpered.  Puffing on the cigar, the alien took in his terrified face and the little girl slung over his shoulder. He gestured toward the doorway and blew out an enormous plume of smoke.  “Go, gringo.”  It was well past midnight when Katie ran into the side of a tent, fell on her bottom, and started crying. They had crossed the bridge, left the highway, and headed for the safety of the forest. Since then they had been wandering among the trees for hours, directionless, driven by fear, then by hope, then exhausted aimlessness. Tanner wasn't going anywhere except away from that park. He had briefly entertained the image of finding a group of militia, sitting around a fire, eating and laughing and, maybe, swapping stories with their old friend Blake. That was hours ago. Visions were fleeting in the fever dream of the forest. Since then, they had walked because they didn't know what else to do. Tanner stumbled over to Katie and collapsed beside her, holding her close and hushing her. He felt like crying too.  A flashlight clicked on inside the tent and a dreadlocked head poked out of the flap.  “Hey, there's someone here!” Rustling erupted from all around and more faces appeared. “Wasn't someone keeping watch?” “I thought you were.” “Doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Someone's crying.” “You folks okay?” Tanner and Katie were soon surrounded by a small group of people. He looked up at them. “Are you the militia?” “No, don't worry. You're safe here. We're friends.” “Although I guess we are a militia if you think about it. Sort of.”  “Shh, don't confuse the poor people. They're terrified.”  “Sorry. No, no militia. Someone get them a blanket and something to drink.” Minutes later, Tanner and Katie were wrapped in sleeping bags, sipping on hot cocoa. It was scalding and familiar and Tanner felt the tension of the past day fading, leaving bone-deep exhaustion in its place.  “Are you okay? What happened?” “Thank you. We were… we just need to sleep.”  “And you? What's your name? Are you alright?” Katie looked at her dad, then stared up from her tin mug. “I'm Katie. I'm scared.” “You're safe now. We'll help you. Look, we'll get you somewhere to sleep.” The first face they had seen rummaged around in a tent and brought out a bag. “Lucky we have a spare tent. I'll just put it up, won't be a second.” The tent was almost up by the time Tanner and Katie finished their drinks, and they got up and walked over, sleeping bags over their shoulders, holding hands. “Hey, thanks,” Tanner said. “I would have helped but I don't really know how. Never had much call for camping. I am, uh, was a lawyer,” he glanced around, “not criminal, uh… intellectual property. Copyright.”  “No problem, of course. Here, it's not hard. I'm just clipping the…” “This isn't the time for camping lessons, Jacob. Anyway, you'll scare the man, sharing information for free like that. They've been through enough already.”  “Sorry, yeah. Look, slide in. Take these sleeping mats. It'll do for tonight, I'll teach you tomorrow.”  Tanner and Katie squeezed into the tent, sleeping bags huddled together on the cold, hard ground, and slept. THE END **Inmn ** 1:03:01 Hello, and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and just a little bit about what you do in the world? **Matt ** 1:03:15 Yeah, hi, I'm Matt. He/him pronouns. And I'm a student again, after a really long time, actually, which is why I've just moved to where I'm living now. But I like to write, you know, mostly for me, and this is the first first thing I've published but I enjoy it. And yeah, I'm really grateful that you've taken an interest in it. **Inmn ** 1:03:37 Yeah, totally. I love the story. So we just listened to the second half of your story, Blood, Soil and Frozen TV Dinners and even though listeners just heard...just heard the whole story, I'm wondering if you could just kind of like walk us through the story in your--you know, from the mouth of the author--what is this story about? **Matt ** 1:04:01 So the story, for me, was about, to some extent, seeing yourself in some ways or, you know, people like you, through the eyes of...through the eyes of someone else, I guess, someone who's very different and might see things in a different way. So I always find it interesting to play with different perspectives or different characters instead of telling the story from a heroic perspective or something. And I wondered what a pathway to a better world might look like from someone who didn't necessarily want that to happen. So we have these, you know, preppers who--call them you want, right-wing conservatives, something like this--and what they might think, given the knowledge that they receive about the world, what they might think is happening when something happens that a lot of the rest of us might want. **Inmn ** 1:05:00 Yeah, totally. I really like how you put that. What was it, like, "a better world that they don't necessarily want?" [both laugh] Okay, well, how did this, how did this story kind of...like how did it come to be? What inspiration did you kind of draw from to craft this situation or these like personalities from Tanner and Blake or Earl Swanson? 1:05:35 Yeah, the story itself, there was a discussion last Halloween, I believe it was, on Coffee With Comrades, there was a interview with Pearson and Margaret Killjoy, talking about the discussion of the monster in literature, which is where I first took the idea that they were talking about seeing yourself as the monster in this idea and sometimes reveling in that or perhaps enjoying it. And that was where the first idea came from. And then the most specific layout of the story or main theme, I guess, was, I was doing something on the US Tax Office website. And there's this whole section for aliens, right, if you're an alien in the U.S., these are the tax rules you need to follow. And I just thought it was a funny word. You know, I'd seen it on Fox News or something before but it just struck me as really weird in such an official position. Yeah, and I just was playing with the ideas of this and, you know, I like thinking about utopias and things. And this is where the like the main shape of the story had come from, just the idea of seeing the monster, seeing the alien from there. And then specific characters, I mean, some of them are just kind of people that I've met, you know, Tanner and Blake, specifically, and I think Earl Swanson's character, I mean--I don't know it's possibly libelous--but we can probably figure out who that's meant to be, right? I think it's reasonably obvious. **Inmn ** 1:07:09 Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's super interesting. Yeah, it's funny, I was rereading the story today to prepare for this interview and I realized that the first time that I was reading it, because of this perspective of the.... I'm like, okay, I know, these are some, you know, at least center-right, far-right preppers and they're using the word "alien" and I don't actually know what they mean by this, which was, you know, maybe a purposeful being vague about it, but I was like, I don't know if they think that it's, you know, illegal aliens or undocumented  migrants or whatever or if they mean, like, literal from outer space aliens. And, yeah, I was like, I don't know what they mean by what they're talking about. And maybe they don't either.   1:08:20 This was part of the conceit, right, was setting it up like it's a pretend big reveal, I think, that it's a twist in the story that at some point gets revealed, but that's not really the point. It's not really meant to be a big trick or something like this, you know? I think in discussions in the editing, we talked about in the first page or so when they speaking Arabic, and it's reasonably obvious to anyone that knows Arabic who these people are, you know, it's not hidden, but this was the idea, that they may have meant illegal alien all along, was, you know, the way they we're using the term, but that they weren't necessarily drawing so much of a distinction between the two uses of the word alien, that in their minds a, sort of, invasion by one was the same as the invasion by the other to some extent. **Inmn ** 1:09:10 Yeah, which, you know, I actually really love that from the perspective of.... It's like maybe an interesting twist. I didn't listen to that interview with Pearson and Margaret, so I'm not sure what they talked about, but there's this kind of idea in a lot of spaces that I've been part of,you know, when people talk about things like assimilation or something, especially in queer spaces, of like, "We have to seem harmless to them. We have to seem innocent. We have to seem like we just want to be part of the group," you know, and then this other side that's like, "No, we want to be unknowable. We are claiming the monstrosity that they are putting on us," and I'm like, yeah, we're fucking.... I don't know, anarchists are kind of aliens, like, in an entirely other way of thinking, you know? 1:10:09 Yeah, and just considering some social norms is completely irrelevant or harmful or repressive and other things that other people would consider, perhaps, violent or something seem completely okay to other people. There is a complete sort of alienation of perspective from broader society, I think. And yeah, it is, there's a tension between sometimes wanting to go unnoticed, or, as you say, like assimilate, and even, for me, walking around, you know, sometimes you want to look like an anarchist and sometimes you don't. It's an interesting dynamic, I guess, that you can switch sometimes day-to-day. **Inmn ** 1:10:54 Yeah, yeah. Have you read much of--you know, love talking about this person on the show--have you read much of Ursula Le Guin's Hainish Cycle? 1:11:08 I've read only "The Dispossessed" and "The Left Hand of Darkness".  **Inmn ** 1:11:16 Great examples. I think "The Left Hand of Darkness," kind of brings out this idea of where the reader is going to maybe most identify with the alien, or whatever, in "The Left Hand of Darkness" being not the not the Gethens--or I don't remember what they're called. But then it's like, the more that we're reading the book... or there's some times where I'm this alien or, you know, our perspective person just doesn't understand this culture. And that's really painful. And then there are other times when I'm like, I don't know, maybe the alien's perspectives on the world are far more dissimilar to what a normal person on like our planet Earth would think, because they're advocating for a better world that is very alien to people on this planet. Does that make sense? **Matt ** 1:12:24 Yeah, I mean, in "The Dispossessed," I think it's the same dynamic with Shevak coming back to Earth and presenting the perspective, both ways that it seems incredibly alien to him and then the other way around to everyone else that's there, to the general culture there. Yeah. I think it's an interesting literary device to present the outsider point of view, I think, which I mean, is quite the opposite of what I did in this story, I presented the more mainstream point of view, I guess, but from the circles that we're in, it's funny to see from the outside what that looks like. **Inmn ** 1:13:02 Yeah, yeah, I had this very silly idea once for...I don't know if it was gonna be a short story or what but kind of, using that "alien" trope or like "Stranger in a Strange Land" trope as a way to talk to my parents about anarchism or about radical queer spheres. **Matt ** 1:13:27 Yeah, I mean, that's about as alien as it can get for a lot of people's parents, right. **Inmn ** 1:13:31 Totally. But just as some funny little zine that's like an introduction to the punk house, you know? **Matt ** 1:13:44 Yeah, viewed as some sort of interesting zoo creatures. **Inmn ** 1:13:46 Yeah. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the kind of political renderings of Tanner and Blake or ,rather, their differences in how they perceive or interact with either preparedness or this new world that they're encountering? **Matt ** 1:14:14 Yeah, I think that Blake's character is a lot.... He knows what he's doing, right? It's a lot more intentional and more--I guess educated is maybe not quite the right word--but a lot more of an actually constructed ideology, whereas for Tanner it's very much received. He's not so keen, not so entirely sold on the idea or doesn't necessarily know the idea. It feels like it's like lost and failing a lot of the time and I think that's why I found him a much more interesting character because that's how I feel a lot of people that I know and talk to and family members and friends and things or friends of people I know get pulled into a lot of these, you know, reactionary ideologies is kind of by accident a lot of the time, right? Because it's what's presented and what they're drawn into by someone who has a lot more investment in it than they do. And they just kind of bumble into it almost by accident. Yeah. **Inmn ** 1:15:20 Because it's what they're seeing on TV. People who are deeper into that philosophy are like.... It's like the people that they're around who are their own little echo chambers of, "Oh, okay, there's this thing happening. Not sure how I feel about it. But I'm being like, fed this perspective on it." **Matt ** 1:15:46 Yeah, and a lot of the social or interpersonal issues that draw people in as well, I think. I tried to make it seem relatively obvious that Tanner is envious of Blake in a lot of ways, right? He is, you know, hotter than him and he is cooler than him and he knows more than him and he's always trying to, like, live up to this ideal that he has just completely interpersonally with no politics or anything in it. And he just wants to live up to what he thinks Blake wants him to be, which it turns out, is a bad thing. I mean, I'm not trying to excuse Tanner's character too much here. But yeah, I think this is what's really dangerous a lot of the time actually, for people who don't necessarily have a fully formed belief in all of these philosophical systems or something that then puts them on the wrong side not by...not necessarily out of evil intention. **Inmn ** 1:16:54 Yeah. No, that's very true. And it's interesting talking about not excusing Tanner's character too much, but as I was reading the story I found myself like, not necessarily rooting for Tanner and Bl

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Leah talk about disability, preparedness, and covid. Guest Info Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha (They/She) is a writer and structural engineer of disability and transformative justice work. Leah can be found at brownstargirl.org, on Instagram @leahlakshmiwrites, or on Bluesky @thellpsx.bsky.social Their book The Future is Disabled: Prophecies, Love Notes, and Mourning Songs can be found: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-future-is-disabled-prophecies-love-notes-and-mourning-songs-leah-lakshmi-piepzna-samarasinha/18247280 Their book Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice can be found: https://bookshop.org/p/books/care-work-dreaming-disability-justice-leah-lakshmi-piepzna-samarasinha/16603798 Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Leah on Disability and Preparedness Resources Mentioned: StaceyTaughtUs Syllabus, by Alice Wong and Leah: https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2020/05/23/staceytaughtus-syllabus-work-by-stacey-milbern-park/ NoBody Is Disposable Coalition: https://nobodyisdisposable.org/ Power To Live Coalition: https://www.powertolivecoalition.org/ Disability Visibility Project article about Power to Live : https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2019/10/26/call-for-stories-powertolive/ Power to Live survival skillshare doc: http://tinyurl.com/dissurvival Long winter crip survival guide for pandemic year 4/forever by Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha and Tina “constant tt” Zavitsanos https://www.tinyurl.com/longwintersurvival Pod Mapping for Mutual Aid by Rebel Sydney Rose Fayola Black: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-QfMn1DE6ymhKZMpXN1LQvD6Sy_HSnnCK6gTO7ZLFrE/mobilebasic?fbclid=IwAR0ehOJdo-vYmJUrXsKCpQlCODEdQelzL9AE5UDXQ1bMgnHh2oAnqFs2B3k Half Assed Disabled Prepper Tips for Preparing for a Coronavirus Quarantine. (By Leah) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rIdpKgXeBHbmM3KpB5NfjEBue8YN1MbXhQ7zTOLmSyo/edit Sins Invalid Disability Justice is Climate Justice: https://www.sinsinvalid.org/news-1/2022/7/7/disability-justice-is-climate-justice Skin Tooth and Bone: The Basis of Movement is Our People (A disability justice primer): https://www.sinsinvalid.org/disability-justice-primer DJ Curriculum by Sins: https://www.sinsinvalid.org/curriculum Partnership for Inclusive Disaster Strategies: https://disasterstrategies.org/ Live Like the World is Dying: Leah on Disability & Preparedness **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret killjoy. And I always tell you that I'm excited about episodes, but I'm really excited about this episode. It put me in a better mood than when I started the day that I get to record this episode. Because today, we're going to be talking about disability and preparedness. We're gonna be talking about Covid abandonment. And we're gonna be talking about a lot of the questions that... a lot of the questions that people write us to talk about that they have about preparedness and I think that we can cover a lot of those. Not me, but our guest. But first before the guest, a jingle from another show on the network. Oh, the network is called Channel Zero Network. It is a network of anarchists podcasts and here's a jingle. [sings a simple melody] **Margaret ** 01:08 Okay, and we're back. So, if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess just a little bit about how you got involved in thinking about and dealing with disability and preparedness. **Leah ** 02:00 Sure. Hi, my name is Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha. She and They pronouns. Right now I live in Pocomtuc and Nipmuc territories in Western Massachusetts. And that is a great question. I will also just plug myself briefly and be like I'm a disability justice and transformative justice old sea-hag, aging punk of color who has written or co-edited ten books and done a lot of shit. Okay, so when I was sitting on the toilet thinking about "What do I want to tell Margaret when we get on the show?", I was actually thinking that my disability and my preparedness routes are kind of one in the same because... So I'm 48 [years old] now and I got sick when I was 21-22. So like back in 96-97. And, it was the initial episode that I got sick with chronic fatigue, ME, and fibromyalgia. And I was just super fucking ill and on the floor and was living in Toronto as somebody who was not from Canada. And, you know, I was just sick as hell, like crawling to the bathroom, like sleeping 18 hours a day. The whole nine. And I'd been really really deeply involved in anarchist of color and prison abolitionist and antifascist organizing and lots of stuff. I had a community, but it was 1997, so most of my community was just like, "What you're sick? Why didn't you make it to the meeting? We have to write all the prisoners with the [untranslatable]." And I was just like, "I just.... Okay, great." Like it was a really different time. There was no GoFundMe, mutual aid, Meal Train, someone brought me some soup. Like, know you, we weren't really doing that. And people really did not have a consciousness around, "You can be a 22 year old brown, nonbinary femme and be really, really sick and be disabled." So something I think a lot, and I've said before, is that disabled people are really used to the concept that no one is going to save us and we are really not surprised when state systems abandoned us because we live in that all the time. And so I was just like this little 22 year old sicko weirdo who'd read my Octavia Butler--and, in fact, that was part of the reason why I was like, "Toronto, great, there's gonna be more water and less heat." Okay, wasn't totally right about that. But, you know, I mean, I really had to save myself and I kind of was like, "Alright, I don't have..." Like, I'm working off the...I'm working under the table. I have hardly any money. I'm gonna make my own herbal medicine. I'm gonna grow a lot of what I eat from my backyard. I'm going to store water. I'm going to run a credit card scam and get a lot of dried goods and live off of those for like a year. [Margaret Hell Yeahs] Yeah, stuff like that. I feel like from there, over the last, you know, 26 years like it's....like, that's the route. The route was, you know, similar to a lot of people, I think of my generation, we were like on the cusp of looking at the current crises of like hot fascist war, hot eugenics war, hot climate crisis, and being like, "It's coming," and I started being like, "Yeah, like don't...don't think that it's all going to work out okay and that somebody else is going to fix it for you." So, I would say that's where my initial route--and then do you want to jump in? Or can I jump ahead like 20 years or something? **Margaret ** 05:10 Honestly, you could jump ahead 20 years later. I'm gonna come back and make you talk more about Octavia Butler. But we'll do that later. **Leah ** 05:16 Let's talk more about Octavia Butler because I have a lot of stuff about Octavia Butler and how she thought of--and I think sometimes misused--like nowadays [this is probably not the word but it's untranslatable] and also about disability. [Margaret "Oooohs" curiously] I know. We can get to that. Okay, so that's one route. And then, you know, I mean, I was always kind of like a little weirdo, where it's like, yeah, I grow most of my own food--or as much as I can--and it's not a fun green hobby. It's like, I'm broke as fuck and I need to grow a lot vegetables that fucking, you know, I can mulch and that can stay growing into December, you know? I stashed stuff. Something I also think a lot, is that as disabled people--and we talked about this a little bit when we're emailing--I think we're always prepping whether we call it that or not. Like most disabled folks I know just do shit. Like if you get a prescription and you have extra, you store it, you know? Like, if you can get a double dose, you put that aside. And then maybe you have it for yourself. Or, there's so many disabled mutual aid networks I've been a part of where someone's--I mean, before Facebook clamped down, this is really common on a lot of Facebook disabled groups--someone would be like, "Yo, does anyone have an extra five pills of such and such?" and I've seen total strangers for 15 years of disability justice be like, "Yep, what's your address? I do. I'm gonna mail it to you. I have my old pain meds. I've got this. I've got that." But, um, yeah, like doing the jumping forward that I promised you, so for people who don't know, disability justice as a movement was founded around 2005 by a group, a small group of disabled Black, Asian, and poor and working class, white disabled folks, who were all pretty, you know, gay, trans, and radical. And they were like, "We want to bring a revolutionary intersectional out of our own lives and experiences and issues. We want to create a disability movement that's for us and by us that's not just white, single issue, often cis, often male, often straight." Like, we want to talk about the fact that 50% of bipoc folks who were killed by the cops are also disabled, deaf, neurodivergent, etc... just to give one example. So, you know, that was '05 in Oakland, you know, Patti Burn, LeRoy Moore, Stacy Milbern, Ely Claire, Sebastian Margaret, Stacey Milbern Park, you know, the six. And I was living in Toronto and I moved to Oakland in '07 and I was kind of around for some of the beginnings of it. There's two stories I want to bring in. One actually predates my move. It was right when I was getting ready to leave Toronto, I got invited to go to this reading by a bunch of queer--I think all white--disabled radical folks. And I was just like, "Oh?" And I did the whole, like, "Am I really disabled enough?" and then it was like, "Oh, it's gonna be really depressing." And then it was really awesome. And I was like, "Whoa, disability community. Life saving." But it was kind of one of my moments of being brought into the disability community because there was this writer who was there who, their reading series was actually a choose your own adventure where there's four disabled, queer, and trans folks who are having a sex party and the zombie apocalypse happens. And then they have to figure out how to survive it without abandoning each other. And it was all like, "Okay, you all get to the van, but then there's no ramp. What do you do? Oh! You get this accessible ramp, but it smells like perfume and somebody has NCS. What do you do? And I was just sitting there with my mouth open--and it was also interwoven with like, 'Yeah, and then somebody's fucking somebody else with like, you know, a dildo strapped to their prosthetic,'" and I was like, wow, I fucking love disability. Like, sign me up. But I gotta say briefly, that was one of my first examples of like, you know, there's a really important phrase in Disability Justice, which is, "No one left behind, " right? Like, that's one of the core organizing principles. And that was kind of.... Before I even heard that phrase, I was like, "Fuck like this is..."--because I'd been around antiauthoritarian, quasi prepper, like "shit's gonna happen, we have to get ready." But I was always kind of quiet in the corner closeting my disability being like, "Well, shit, like, what if I don't have my meds? Or what if I'm too.... What if I can't run away from, you know, the Nazis or the zombies because I have a limp and I walk with a cane? Like, what if?" And that was my first example of this cross disability fantasy space of like, "We're going to escape together and we're not going to let anyone get eaten and it's going to mean really being creative about access stuff." Okay so jump ahead to, right, then I moved to Oakland and then I ran into actual Disability Justice community through Sins Invalid, which is an incredibly important foundational Disability Justice group, and through a lot of friendships I started making with other QTBIPOC disabled folks and my really, really good friend Stacy Park Milbern, who, people should totally know her work. She's incredible. She was one of the best movement organizers that the movement has ever seen. And we met online. And she was living in Fort Bragg, North Carolina with her family on the base because her family's military. And she was a queer southern, working-class, Korean and white, you know, physically disabled organizer from when she was really young. And then she was like, "Okay, I love my family, but I'm literally hiding my gay books in the wall because my mom's Pentecostal." So, yeah, and she's like--I literally realized she tells the story a lot--she's like, "Yeah, like, I realized I hadn't really left the house for a couple months and like, this is gonna be it," and she's like, "I was literally watching Oprah. And Oprah said, 'No one's coming to save you.'" And she was like, okay. She's 21 years old. And then through online, disabled, queer of color community there was this--or she organized--this initiative called To the Other Side of Dreaming where she moved crosscountry with Mia Mingus, who's another queer Korean organizer who was a friend of hers, ad moved to the Bay Area. And so that was around 2010-2011. And then in 2011, what happens but the Fukushima nuclear accident, right, disaster? And we're all on the West Coast--and it's completely ridiculous bullshit, looking back on it now--but all of these Bay Area folks were like, "Oh my God! Radiation!" And some people pointed out, "Look, you know, we're not.... There's...it's a big ocean. The people who really have to worry are in Japan and areas around it, so whatever?" But it was one of those times where we were like, fuck, this is a really big nuclear accident and we are sort of close and it's making us think about disaster. And I remember just going to fucking Berkeley Bowl, which is this big, fancy, organic supermarket and people had bought out all of the burdock all the fucking seaweed. And I was like, "Oh, my God, these people." But out of that, Stacy started having conver--and I and other people who were in our organizing network of disabled, majority BIPOC--were like, "What are we going to as disabled BIPOC if there is an earthquake, fascism, like another big disaster? And Stacy said, really bluntly, she's like, "You know," and she was a power wheelchair user. She used a ventilator. You know, she's like, "Yeah, I am supported by electricity and battery dependent access equipment." And she's like, "Well, I'm going to be really honest, my plan has always been, if something happens, I'm just going to lay down in my bed and die, because I don't think that any emergency services are going to come save me and the power is going to run out in 48 hours. And then we were like, "Okay, that's super real. What if, through our amazing collective access stuff we're doing, we could figure out something else?" And we had this meeting at Arismendy bakery, which for folks who know, is like a worker owned co-op chain, Our friend Remedios worked there. It's wheelchair accessible. We met there after hours. And it was just like, 12-15 of us who started just sitting there and being like, "What are the resources we have? What are the needs we have? And we made this map, which I still have, which I think I shared with you, which is just like, "Apocalypse, South Berkeley/Oakland Map 2011," where we were like, "Okay, you know, when the power goes down, the communication goes down. We're gonna meet at this one traffic circle because people who are wheelchair users can roll up. And we're gonna bury note paper in a mason jar with pens and we're gonna leave notes for each other. But we're also going to agree to meet there the day after at noon." And I was like, okay, my collective house, the first floor is wheelchair accessible. We have solar, we have a landline. And we have a lot of space. So like, let's meet there. And then someone was like, "We've got the one accessible van. And we know, it's only supposed to fit 4 people, but we can fit like 12 in there." And we started.... Like, I just think about that a lot because it's, I think it was a really important moment where it was important...the stuff that we did like that--you know, the actual strategies and the resources we started talking about--but it was also that it was the first time in my life that I was like, "Okay, we're not--not only are we not going to just die alone in our beds, I'm also not going to be the one person who survives. Like, I can actually survive with, and because of, other people. And we're all disabled BIPOC with a couple of disabled white folks. And we can actually collectively strategize around that. And this will be my last leap forward, because I see that you're like, "I want to ask you stuff." So, you know, eight years go by, and in that time we all do an incredible amount of Disability Justice organizing and strategizing. And, you know, in 2019.... And a lot of it started to be around climate disaster on the West Coast. Like, I moved to Seattle in 2015. The wildfires started being really bad a year or two later. A lot of us were involved in mask distributions, just spreading information about smoke safety and survival. And then 2019 was the infamous year where the wildfires came back and Pacific Gas and Electric, in all of its fucking glory, which is the main--for people who don't know--it's the main utility electrical company in Northern California. They announced two days before wildfires were going to really impact the Bay, they were like, "Oh, so we've decided that our strategy is going to be that we're just going to shut down all the power in Northern California. **Margaret ** 14:52 No one uses that. [Sardonically] **Leah ** 14:53 No one uses that. And they're like, "Oh, if you have a medical need, call this number, and we'll make sure to leave it on at your house." and Stacey was, "Okay." She had just bought her house, the Disability Justice Culture Club in East Oakland, you know, which was her house but also a community center, de facto community center, that housed a lot of disabled folks of color. And she was like, "I was on the fucking phone for eight hours. Like, I never got through." And she and some comrades started this campaign called Power to Live where they were like.... It started out as, "Okay, we can't save everybody, but we're not going to just lay down and die. What do we do?" So it started out as like, okay, let's identify who has housing that still has power. There's some people in Richmond, there's some people in this neighborhood, but then it also developed into this thing where it was just this amazing crowdsource survivalist resource where it was everything from, she's like, "Here's a number. Here's an email. If you need something, text us, call us, email us. We have a team of eight people. We'll figure it out. If you have something to offer, do it too." And then some of it was that people were sharing everything from generator information, to generator shares, to people in different areas-- like I was in Seattle and we were like, "Okay, we will mail you generators and air purifiers, because it's obviously all sold out in the Bay, but we can get it here and get it to you." The thing that always stands out to me is people being like, "Oh, yeah, here's how you can use dry ice and clay pots to keep your insulin cold if refrigeration goes down." And there's a lot more I could say about that action and how amazing it was. But for me, when I think about the through line, I'm like, that moment in 2011, when we all got together, and were like, "What do we do?" we were prepping for what we couldn't fully predict, you know, the exact manifestation of eight years later. We're there and we're like, "Okay, there's wildfires, there's smoke, there's no fucking power, and we've not only built our organizing base, we built our relationships with each other so that we can actually trust each other and more or less know how to work together when this shit actually is hitting the fan to create something that's really life giving. Okay, I'll shut up. That was a lot. **Margaret ** 16:52 Now I have so many questions about all of it. **Leah ** 16:53 Yeah, ask me all the questions. **Margaret ** 16:55 Because there's a couple...there's a couple of questions and/or feedback that we get with Live Like, the World is Dying a lot. And some of them are very specifically disability related, and you covered most of them, but I want to highlight some of them. Like a lot of people write and are like, "Well, I rely on the following thing that is provided by civilization. So my plan is to lay down and die." Right? This is a--and I know you've kind of answered it--but I.... I want to ask more. Okay, I'll go through all the things. Okay. So to talk more about what "No One Left Behind," means? And then the other thing that really stands out to me is that, you know, when we were talking, when we were talking about what we were going to talk about on this on this episode, I was saying, okay, we can talk about, you know, making sure that preparedness is inclusive and open and includes disabled folks, or whatever, and you pointed out, really usefully, the, the necessity to reframe it. And I think that the story you just gave is a really beautiful example of this, where it's less about, like, "Hey, make sure to pay attention to the people who need canes," you know, or whatever, right? Like, you know, "make sure you keep track of folks based on disability." And more than like the thing you just described, is the thing that we're always trying to push, which is that you need to make a list of all the resources and needs within your community and then figure out how to meet those needs and instead of assuming that we can't meet those needs, figuring out how to actually do it. And so I love that it's actually like.... It's actually disability justice movements that we should be learning from, I mean, or participating in, depending on our level of ability, or whatever, but I just find that I find both of those things really interesting. And so I wonder if you have more that you want to say about alternatives to laying down and dying, and specifically, to tie into the other thing that I get asked the most or that I get the common feedback is--because we talk a lot about the importance of community for preparedness on this show--a lot of people don't feel like they have community and a lot of people write to be like, "I don't have any friends," or "I don't know any other people like me," or, you know. And so, I guess that's my main question is how do.... [Trails off] Yeah, how do? **Leah ** 19:22 So how do you make community when you don't have community? Alternatives to lying down and dying? And was there a third one in there? **Margaret ** 19:28 I was just highlighting how cool it is that y'all sat there and made a list of resources and needs, which is exactly what.... Instead of deciding things are impossible, just being like, "Well, let's just start doing them." You know? **Leah ** 19:40 And I think.... Okay, so I'll start there. Like I think that like.... You know, Corbit O'Toole, who's like a, you know, Disability Rights Movement veteran and like older Irish, disabled dyke, you know, in Crip Camp, the movie, she's like, "Disabled people live all the time with the knowledge that the society wants thinks we're better off dead," right? Like one...back in the day, you know, there's a--I think they're still active--one of the big Disability Rights direct action organizations was called Not Dead Yet, right? [Margaret Hell Yeahs] I think this is the thing is like I think that sometimes abled people or neurotypical people are not used to sitting down and making the list. And I think that even if disabled people aren't preppers, we're used to being like, "Okay, what do I need? Fuck, I need somebody to help me do my dishes. Oh, I can't bend over. I need to figure out what is the access tool that will allow me to pick up something from the floor when my that goes out? Like, if my attendant doesn't show up, can I have a..." You know, like, my friends always like, "Yeah, I've got a yogurt container by the bed in case my attendant doesn't show up so I can not piss the bed. I can lean over and piss in the yogurt container." Like there's a--and I think that.... God, I mean, there's been so many times over the years where I've done or been a part of doing like Disability Justice 101 and me and Stacy would always talk about crip wisdom and crip innovation and people will just look blank like "What are you talking about? You guys are just a bunch of sad orphans at the telethon." It's not just about making the list, it's also about how disabled disability forces you to be innovative. Like, Stacy would always share this story where she's like, "Yeah," like, she's like "Crip innovation is everything from," she's like, "I save a lot of time sometimes by pretending I can't talk when people come over and want to pray over me. You know, I just act like a mute and they fucking leave and they go on with their life," and she's like, "You know, I realized one day, if I took my sneakers off, I could ramp a step if it's just two steps. I could just put them there and I could roll up." Or I mean, there's a million examples.... Or like, because I think it's about prepping and about making the lists and it's also about whatever you prep for, there's always going to be the X Factor of "Oh, we didn't fucking expect that." And I think that's where a lot of prep falls apart is people have their "Dream Bunker." They're like, "Oh, okay, I know exactly what the threats are going to be." And then of course, it doesn't fucking happen that way. I really hope I can swear on your show. **Margaret ** 21:46 You can. Don't worry. **Leah ** 21:47 Great. So, I mean, one example I could give is I'm remembering at, you know, a Sins show when we were in rehearsal, where everyone drove over from Oakland in Patty's wheelchair accessible van, and then the ramp broken wouldn't unfold. So we just were like, alright, who do we know who has welding equipment? Who do we know has lumber? Like, I think we ended up going to a bike repair shop and then they had tools. And then we're like, okay, we'll just bring the rehearsal into the van and do it that way. Like, you have to be innovative. And that's a muscle that I think society doesn't teach you to flex and that often, I think that even people who.... I think there can be a lot of eugenics in prep, you know, whether people are overtly fascist or not, there's a real belief of like, "Oh, only the strong and smart," --which looks a certain way-- "survive," and that "We should use rational thinking to make it all work out." And I think a lot of crip intelligence or wisdom is actually knowing that shit can go sideways 48 different ways and you have to adapt. And you have to just kind of be like, "Well, let's try this." So I think that's one thing. And I think, you know, one thing I'll say is, yeah, just speaking to kind of the reframing we were talking about, I think it's less like, "Oh, remember the people with canes," but, I mean, that's good, but also knowing that we're already doing it and that abled people actually have a shit ton to learn from us. But also, I mean, something.... I mean, the title of my last book is "The Future is Disabled," and it comes from something--it's not unique thinking to me--it's something that a lot of disabled people have been thinking and saying throughout the pandemic is that we were already at like a 30% disabled world minimum and we're pretty close--we're probably at majority disabled right now. Because what, 2% of the world didn't get Covid? Like, how many people have Long Covid? How many people have complex PTSD? We're all sick, crazy, and, you know, needing access equipment. Disability is not out there. It's in here. Like there's no such thing as doing prep that's like, "Oh, only the three Uber Mensch are gonna survive." Like fuck that. And that actually--I mean, sorry, this might be a side note, but a lot of people have probably seen The Last of Us. And I'm just gonna SPOILER ALERT it. You know that famous episode three of those two gay bear preppers in love? Yeah, I loved a lot about it. I was so pissed at the ending, which I'm just going to spoil. So you know, the more artsy, non-prep guy....[interrupted] **Margaret ** 21:47 Yeah, they don't survive. **Leah ** 22:47 Well, no, but like, not only did they not survive but one of them gets chronically ill. And I was just like, grinding my teeth because it's like, "Oh, he's in a wheelchair. Oh, his hand tremors." And then they end up deciding to both kill themselves rather than do anything else. And I was so furious at it because I was like, these are two people who are so innovative. They have figured out all kinds of problem solving. They have an entire small city for themselves. And it's all like, "Oh, no, he can't get up the stairs." And I'm like, really? There was no accessible ranch house you couldn't of fucking moved to? **Margaret ** 24:38 Or like build a bedroom on the fucking ground floor. **Leah ** 24:40 Or youcouldn't get meds? You couldn't? I mean, when his hand was shaking, it was like, "Oh, it's so sad. He's being fed." I'm like, there's tons.... First of all, it doesn't suck to be fed. A lot of things that seem like a fate worse than death are not when you're in them. And also, there's like all kinds of adaptive utensils that they could have fucking raided from medical supply if he wants to feed himself. Or I'm sorry, there's no cans of Ensure? They absolutely have power. They couldn't have made smoothies? Like, what the fuck is this? But beyond that--and I think that a lot of people who have talked about that episode did, I think, have some good analysis of it where, you know, the whole way they set up their prep was they were like, "Oh, it's just the two of us," and the one super prepper guy was like, "I don't even want friends to come over." And the other guy was like, "Hey, actually, we need to make alliances because there's things they have that we don't. And we also need more than just the two of us because I love you, but I'm gonna kill you." And I think that's something to think about is really moving away from the idea that just your little you know, the utopic queer rural community that so many fucking city queers fantasize about or, you know, lover are going to be enough, because it's not. So that actually leads me to, "I don't have community. Where the fuck do I get it?" And I'm like, yeah, that's super real. Right? And I think it's something I actually wrote about in "The Future is Disabled" is that I have people be like--when I write about different crip communities, just even when I talk about stuff on Facebook.... Like my friend, Graham Bach, it's going to be his second year death anniversary in like two weeks, and he was like, you know, white, psychiatric survivor, super poor, amazing sweetheart of a human being, he died.... I mean, he died in his, you know, rent to your income apartment because he was really afraid to go to the hospital and he had cardiac stuff going on. And he was an anarchist, he was amazing, kind, complicated human being. And, I was writing about, like.... I'm going to tell the story and there's a couple things I want to pull out of it. So I was writing about meeting Graham when I was in my early 20s through radical Mad people community, and somebody was reading it and was like "That sounds so great." And I was like, "Yeah, it wasn't utopic. Like, I had to yell back at Graham because he would scream at me and I'd be like, "Shut the fuck up!" Like, there was so many fights. There was so much racism. There were so many older white cis dudes who had electroshock who were jerky or gross, you know? And I guess that was the thing is, I was like, they're like, "Well, how did you find each other?" And I was like, it wasn't perfect. Also, it was very analog working class. Like my friend Lilith Finkler, who is an amazing Moroccan, Jewish, working-class queer femme psych survivor, she would just go to the donut shop where everybody poor hung out and would talk to everybody who wass there who wass crazy who no one wanted to talk to and be like, "Hey, do you want to come hang out at this meeting at the fucking legal clinic? We have a room. We have a snack plate. I'll give you tokens. Let's organize." So I think that's the first thing is that it's not--and I don't mean this in a finger-wagging way--it's not automatic. And also, one of the really big ways that community is often ableist, and that a lot of us get cut out from it, is that a lot of us who need it the most are not particularly easy to love in ableist neurotypical worldview. It's like we're cranky, we're wounded, we're in a bad mood, we're weird. So a lot of the time, I think it's thinking about, first of all, what's one step, one move you can take towards it. Like, can you make one fucking acquaintance and build it. And really think about what it would mean to build some kind of relationship. I think the other thing that I really want to highlight is that a lot of the communities that I see that keep each other alive, that I'm lucky to have been a part of making and being supported by in disabled community, they're not static and they're not perfect. Like, I have networks with people who piss me the fuck off and who, you know, I've sent 20 bucks to people who I'm just like, "I really don't like you, but I can see that you really don't have food," you know, and we're not going to be friends and we're not going to like each other, but I don't want you to die. And that's not...I mean, it's bigger.... There's also people who I'm like, "Okay, you're my ex-abuser. I'm not gonna give you $5. Someone else can give you $5. **Margaret ** 28:42 There's this person who puts a lot of their effort into talking shit on me on the internet and I...they're also broke and have a lot of chronic health issues and I send them money every month. And every now and then I'm like, could this like...could you stop talking shit now? **Leah ** 29:03 I think this is the thing sometimes is like, hey, how about this is the deal, like maybe just say "Thank you," or maybe just talk shit even like 20% less? Because you know, I'm really doing we keep us safe here. I just really want a "thank you." **Margaret ** 29:16 I don't want you to die. Like, I don't want you to starve to death, but I really wish you would be a little bit more open minded to people having different opinions on yours. **Leah ** 29:26 Oh yeah, nuance, right? Yeah, it'd be fucking nice. **Margaret ** 29:29 God forbid. Anyway. **Leah ** 29:31 No, it's good. I guess my TLDR would be to start where you are and start with "what's one thing you can do? What's one person you can reach out to?" And I think, you know, I don't know if this is true for everyone who reaches out to you and it's like, "Well, I don't have anybody," but I think that social media and online connectivity is a real double-edged sword because for some of us who are isolated, it can create both online communities that can sometimes become in-real-life community and, either way, can be sources of some community or support. But I think.... I mean, you know, I'm a Generation X'er and I've just seen social media get more and more chokehold and just turn into fucking the panopticon meets a mall, you know? [Margaret laughs] And I think it's hard because 12 years ago I was part of really early online disabled spaces, which were great because so many people were like, "Well, I'm so isolated in my small town or in my city," or "I can't leave bed, but this is great. I'm meeting with other people and we're building these connections and it's actually more accessible for me to be real about my stuff from like my bed with a heating pad." And now I just think it's so chokeholded that it's hard for us to find each other. So it's much more common for people to be like, "Wow, I'm seeing all these people who have millions of followers and a shiny brand and I just feel like even more of an isolated loser." And then at the same time, I think people are like, "Well, how did people meet each other before this?" And I was like, "Yeah, like, you go to the coffee shop or the donut shop. You put up a flier. You go to the library. You like, I don't know. I mean, I just remember people I met on the food stamps line, you know, when we got there at six in the morning. And not everything's gonna stick, but maybe something sticks. And I also think about like, I'm going back to 13 years ago in early Disability Justice community spaces where--I mean, I think back to [untranslatable] when I went back to Toronto--which, yeah, big city--but I remember I had so many people come to me and be like, "You're..."--because I was starting to be more out about disability, cuz I was like, "I'm in the Bay and there's these wild people who talk about it and they're not all white people." and so I have so many, especially Black and brown disabled femmes be like, "Hi, you don't really know me, but I have fibromyalgia too," or "I have Lupus too. And like, no one I know talks about that. How do you do it?" And I'm specifically thinking about this time that this person I'm no longer in touch with--but we used to be friends--who's like, you know, queer, brown nonbinary person was like, "Let's just have a meet up of other chronically ill femmes of color," which is how we were identifying a time, and it was four of us, four heating pads, a bottle of Advil, and just very tentatively starting to share things about our lives. And I was like, "Yeah, that was four people." But a lot of that hang out then rippled outward. And it was like, I think it's also important to be like, it's scary to build community. Some tools I want to shut out like, so Mia Mingus, who I mentioned before, she has a lot of really great writing on her blog Leaving Evidence and she created this tool a long time ago now--that some people might be familiar with but for folks who aren't--it's, you know, it's her tool that she calls Pod Mapping. And she actually created it as part of a collective she founded called the Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective that was working on doing transformative justice interventions into intimate violence, specifically childhood sexual abuse a lot of the time, and she had this framework that I find really helpful. She's like, "A lot of..." she was talking about in community accountability, transformative justice spaces and she made a really good point where she's like, "Sometimes we talk about like, 'Yeah, bring in the community. Like, everyone has a community.'" And she's like, "Most people don't have a fucking community, let alone one that can interview in childhood sexual abuse." So she created this tool where she's like, "Let's broaden the idea of what community is." Like, maybe it's that one cousin, that you only talk to once a year, but you could call them in a jam, or it's this hotline, or it is like, yeah, they're a weird church, but you really like their food banks. She's like, "You have to really bring in.... Like, start where you are and do the resource mapping we were talking about" I really liked that tool a lot as a place for people who are like, "What's my community?" because I think it's a big word and really being like, "What does that even mean to me?" and like, "What's one place that can start building it?" And I also want to shout out, Rebel Sydney Black, who's a friend of mine who passed this June, at the beginning of the pandemic, he created this tool called Pod Mapping for Mutual Aid that was specifically aimed at disabled folks who were trying to pod map during Covid--and we can provide the link and stuff like that--but I would say that those are two places to start and then I want to get to alternatives to lying down and dying. And then I'll stop. **Margaret ** 34:04 Okay, wait, wait, before we get to that I want to talk more about the building community thing. **Leah ** 34:08 Yeah, please. **Margaret ** 34:09 I think you brought up a lot of really interesting points. And one of the things that I really like about it, you know, talking about having like...you're broadening the idea of what counts as community, which I think is really useful. And one of the things I realized is that a lot of times when I was younger, I was like, "Y'all say 'community' and you just mean the people that you like," right? And that didn't make any sense to me. Community seems like the people where you have a shared interest, whether the shared interest is you live on the same block, or whether the shared interest is an identity, or whether the shared interest is an interest that you're trying to see change, or whatever. It doesn't mean people you like. It's a different thing. Friends are the people I like, right? Well, mostly. I'm just kidding. I love all of you. I mean, there's a lot of people I love that I don't always like. Anyway, so I don't know, and so I think that one of the things that stuck out with me about what you're gonna say and I want to highlight is the idea that--or maybe I'm misreading it--but like "pick issue to work" around seems like a good useful way. Especially if you struggle to just have friends, right? That's not like the thing that you're good at. But maybe there's a thing that you want to work on? Or having that meetup where it's like, oh, all the following people who have the following things in common, let's meet up and talk about it. Or honestly, activism is a really good way to meet people and work closely with people about things. And it doesn't necessarily have to mean these are now your friends. But they can be people where you rely on each other. And that doesn't have to be the same. I think about it a lot because I live in a fairly isolated and rural environment where there's not a lot of people around me who are culturally.... Whatever, there's not a lot of out, queer people where I live. There's not a lot of punks. And I'm like, that's okay. I talk to my actual neighbors instead. I mean, some of them, not all of them, but most of them, you know, they're who I would rely on in a crisis, because they're right there. It doesn't mean that we have the same ideas about a lot of stuff, you know? But we have similar ideas, like, "Let's not die," right? And so that's enough sometimes. Anyway, I just wanted to.... **Leah ** 36:12 No, I really appreciate it. And I mean that makes me kind of think about, when you were talking, I was like, yeah, you know, there's friends, there's communities, and then there's survival networks, which can include contacts, right? Because I just think about what would I do right now, if some should happened? And I was like, I've got long distance kin and long term friendships and relationships ofvarious kinds and I also have--because I moved to where I live, which is like semi-rural, but definitely more rural than where I've lived before--and I'm just like, yeah, I have a small number of friends. But there's like people who I know who I can...who are neighbors who like, maybe we don't know a shit ton about each other but I could be like, "Hey, this thing?" or "Hey, do you have water?" or, "Hey, let's do this." I think it's a lot about thinking about what are your goals? Is your goal intimacy? Is your goal survival? Is your goal friendship? Because you need different levels of trust and commonality depending on those things, right? I also think, and this is the thing too, I think something.... I think a lot of times because I've had people be like, "Well, I don't have community," also, I've heard that. And I think that a lot of times the context, I hear it in is people being like, "Well, I have care needs, but I don't have any community." So then there's also the really big thorny question of "need" and like being cared for is actually very complicated. It's very risky. It's very vulnerable. It's not safe a lot of the time. It may feel a lot easier to just be like, "I don't have any fucking needs." And so there's a lot, I will just say that there's a lot of unpacking that needs to do around like, "What would I need to be cared for? What are my lower risk needs that I need help with? What are my higher risk needs?" right? Like, there's people who I can.... There's some needs I have where I'm like, I don't need to trust you super, super deep politically or on an intimate level to let you do that. There are certain needs where I'm like, that's only going to be people where we've really built a lot of fucking trust because if this goes sideways you could really stuck with me. Right? And I think that when you're starting from nowhere, I think often where people get stuck is like, "Where I am feels like I have nobody and nothing. And I want to get to like the thing I've read about in your topic science fiction, where you know, it's Star Hawk and everybody loves each other. And how the fuck do I get from A to B." And I think the solution is like, yeah, you're not gonna get to fucking "Fifth Sacred Thing" right away--and that book is complicated. **Margaret ** 38:29 Yeah, It was very influential on my early.... **Leah ** 38:31 Oh yeah, when I was 18, I just wanted to fucking move there. And now I'm like, "Oh God, this is embarrassing. There's some shit in here." I'm like, "Wow, everybody's mixed race, but everyone's Black parents are dead." Wow. Cool. Nobody really thinks about race. I'm like, I'm gonna throw up. And like, you know, BDSM is just violent....Okay, sorry. We're not going to get into that. **Margaret ** 38:47 Oh my God, I don't remember that part. **Leah ** 38:49 Oh, yeah. No, where it's so violent. Like, "We're just loving." And I wrote a really no passion paper for school, because we actually had to read it in a college class I was in, and I was like, "Why are they not into leather sexuality?" And my professor was like, "Okay, 18 year old..." but yeah. **Margaret ** 39:04 I mean, legit. You 18 year old self had a legitimate critique. **Margaret ** 39:08 Yeah. **Leah ** 39:08 Yeah, no, there's a lot there. But, um, but jumping back, I guess it's just like, you know.... And I think this feels like disabled wisdom too, it's like, what can you do with the spoons or the capacity you have? Like, what's one move you can make that small? And then can you build on that? Yeah, but can I talk about alternatives to lying down and dying? **Leah ** 39:28 Yeah. Well, I think...I mean, this is the thing, is like, I'm a survivalist, but I'm not like anti-civilization in the ways that some people are. Like, I want meds, you know? And I think that's something that other crips I know talk about a lot, which is like, you know, we're really against this way that some people, including some people who would like align themselves with like Healing Justice who are like "We're like, oh, yeah, we just have to go back before colonialism and capitalism, and just everyone lived on herbs and it was great." and I was like, "Nah, bitch, I need surgery and meds." Like I want it all. Like, I love non-Western pre-colonial traditional healing. Absolutely. And I've had friends who died because they didn't get their surgeries on time. Like my friend LL died because nobody would give him a fucking kidney because they said he was too fat. And I'm just like, my good future involves.... I mean, and he's one of millions right? So like, my good future involves that we have surgical suites. And I'm just like, you know, honestly, also, a lot of times that worldview just seems so white to me, because I'm just like, listen, a lot of like, global south places figure out how to have field hospitals, right, in really dire and low-resource situations. So I'm sorry.... **Margaret ** 40:40 I mean, only Europoe's ever figured out surgery. No one else has done surgery until Europe showed up. [Said sarcastically implying the opposite] **Leah ** 40:45 Yeah, not fucking ever. [Also said sarcastically] **Margaret ** 40:46 Said the people who are like, "bite down stick and I'll saw your arm off." **Leah ** 40:49 Yeah, so I mean, I guess one thing I would just say is like, I would say that and I would say like, you know, really...I want to like lift up and encourage people to look at--and they can be hard to find--but look at cultures, look at organizing initiatives where people were like, "We can have our own ambulance, we can have our own like..." And when that's not there, to think about what it would mean to have medical care after the apocalypse, right? What would it mean to make hormones, make drugs, synthesize chemicals, and it's not impossible. I think that we're still in the in between of like, okay, we gotta figure out how to do that. But, um, you know, I'm thinking about, Ejeris Dixon, who's my friend and comrade, and, you know, we co-edited "Beyond Survival" together, which is a book we wrote that came out right at the beginning of the pandemic about stories and strategies from how people are actually trying to create safety without the cops. Ejeris always talks about how they were like, "Yeah, like, in Louisiana, you know, in the South, you know, like in the 50s, and 60s, and before I believe, there were all kinds of Black run ambulance and 911 services," because regular 911 wouldn't come to Black communities. Right? And they, I mean, something that I've heard them say a lot over the years is like, "We don't have the people's ambulance yet. But we could." And then it makes me also jump to some friends of mine who were in Seattle who were really active as street medic crew during the rebellions after George George Floyd was murdered by the police in, you know, 2020 in the summer, and specifically in, as some people remember, Seattle managed to have 16 square blocks break off from the city for a while, CHOP, Capitol Hill Organized Front. And so what people don't know is that the cops were like, "Okay, fuck you. We're not going to...If there's any 911 ambulance calls, we're not going to fucking let anyone go in there." So the street medic crew had to deal with a lot of really intense situations. And then after that, like a lot of us folks, like some folks were already nurses or EMTs and a lot of folks who were involved went to nursing school or EMT school and we're like--and I don't know where it's at now--but they were like, "We want to create,"--because right now in Seattle, there's, if somebody is having a crisis on the street, like a medical or a mental health crisis or an altered state crisis, there's no non-911 crisis response that you can call. There's either you go down the stairs to talk to somebody or there's the cops, right. And they were like, "We can get a van. We can get medical equipment from eBay." And you know, I don't know where they're at with that, but they were really organizing around like, "Yeah, we could get a defibrillator. We could get oxygen. We could get blood pressure cuffs. We could get fucking..." you know? And I think that that shit gets complicated in terms of insurance and regulation and the State and the medical industrial complex, but I want us to keep thinking about that. I also, and then I'll wrap up because we have other questions to get to, but it also makes me think about, I mean, I don't know if folks are familiar with Gretchen Felker Martin's amazing science fiction book "Manhunt," right, which is about.... **Margaret ** 43:50 I haven't read it yet. **Leah ** 43:52 It's so fucking good. Okay, so I won't give it away. But just for people who don't know, I'd say it's the one kind of gender sci-fi book where "Oh, a virus, you know, affects people with certain chromosomes or certain that dih-dah-dug that's not TERFy because it's a book that, you know, she's trans, and it's a book that centers trans women and nonbinary communities and there's like one or two trans masculine characters. But the two main trans femme, like trans women characters in the book, they're like, they have to, they're like, "Yeah, like, we're going on raids to get, you know, hormones, and, you know, different, like chemical drugs we need. And we're also figuring out how to synthesize them from herbs and different substances." And it's not easy. It's a struggle. But there are organized communities of trans women and allies that are fighting to do it. And I'm just like, yeah, and I mean, it's an amazingly well written book, and she's incredible, and I fucking loved it. And it's just beautifully written and really just--sorry, I won't gush too much but go read it, it's incredible--I just really also appreciated it because she was like, "Yeah, of course we're gonna get our hormones after the end of the world. Like of course it's possible." And I will also.... I have some criticisms of the ableism in it, but M.E. O'Brien and--fuck I'm forgetting the second author's name, but every you know, "Everything For Everyone," that book. I appreciated how in the good future society, they're like, "Our priority is making sure that insulin and chemical drugs and hormones are accessible and free to everybody." And I was like, I guess I would just push people towards there are ways of imagining the future where we can defeat capitalism but still have medical care of all kinds. We can have Reiki and acupuncture and we can also hormone surgery and transplants. And we might be doing it better because it's not controlled by fucking corporations and assholes. Sorry, that's my soapbox. Um, okay. I will say in terms of people being like, "That's really nice. But what about me?" I would be like, you know, I mean, right now in the war on trans America, there are so many people already who are like, "Yeah, I'm stockpiling meds. I like doing meds trading." I would say it goes back to what we started about, which is like, "Okay, what are your needs? What are the things that you're worried will not be there if the world ends?" Right? And we also need to recognize that the world's already ending and it's ended for some of us a bunch of times already. But I would be like, make that list and then really be like, "Alright, how do I get it?" You know, and if I can't specifically get it, are there like backups that I can get? And it may be stuff that you can research on your own. It also might be stuff where it's like, "Okay, are there trans [untranslatable], disability justice organizations, nationally, globally, locally, that you can hit up and be like, "What are folks thoughts about this? Are there ways that we can resource share?" Because I think it's about pills. I think it's also about durable medical equipment. So in terms of stuff that requires power to live, I think about generators and I think about generator shares. And I think about things like...there's a story when Hurricane Sandy hit New York 10 years ago, there were a whole bunch of us where...there's a guy Nick who's in community who, physically disabled guy, 13th floor, accessible apartment, you know, the lights went out, you know, really dependent on electricity to change out the batteries on his ventilator. There's a whole crew of disabled folks, like people walked up and down those fucking stairs every eight hours to take the spent batteries, figured out, "Hey, you know, what still has power, the fucking fire department." People were walking down recharging the batteries every eight hours. And it was allies, it was ambulatory, it was disabled people who could walk. It was fucking hard. But people were like, we're not.... Nick and his friends were like, "We're not just going to die. We're needed." So I wanna shoutout that and just for possibility modeling, I really want to, one other place I want to shout out, is an org that used to be known as Portlight but was now known as the Center for Inclusive Disaster Strategies, which is a disabled-led organization that is about like, yeah, when there's a climate or other disaster, they figure out ways of getting like accessible fucking evacuation methods to places because they know...we know, there's millions of examples of people who are just left to die in nursing homes or like, "Oops, the bus doesn't have a ramp," or, you know, I really want to name that during Katrina, some people might know about, you know, the situation with the nursing home that was there were a lot of folks who were wheelchair users or had high care needs were fucking killed by medical staff because the medical staff were like, "We're gonna actually euthanize these folks without their knowledge or consent." [Margaret exclaims] Yeah, no, there was actually a movie on HBO about it I think semi recently. Because "that's easier than figuring out how to fucking get people in the medivac ," right? Yeah, and so the Partnership for Inclusive Disaster Strategies, I'm still getting to know them, but I have friends who are involved and they're like, "Yeah, we're aware this is an issue." So yeah, let's work with the fucking Cajun fucking Navy to like make sure that you can get folks with different bodies onto evac boats. Like let's figure out what disabled survival looks like. And I will just say, and this is the last thing I swear, for me, I mean, we all know water is important. Like, I can't lift 54 pounds. Guess what? So can't--which is, you know, a seven gallon right, like a five or seven gallon whatever--I'm just like, yeah, so I can actually have smaller jugs of water that I can lift. So yeah, I have a bug out plan, but I also have a real Shelter in Place plan because I'm just like, yeah, my apartment's accessible for me. So yeah, I got a shit ton of water right here and I'll be good for a while. And I also have a plan B for.... Okay, there's...I've got my filtration equipment, so when that runs out, I'm close to some water sources where I can go and I can filter that shit. And that's me thinking about what works for my body. Think about what works for yours and then plan out from that. Okay, I'll really stop talking now. **Margaret ** 49:44 No, no, but there's so much there. Even just like to go to the weight of water, right? The thing that I ran across that I'm like--I'm reasonably able-bodied and such like that, right--but I live alone and so obviously there's this specific thing where like.... Well, one, I mean, abledness is always a temporary position.... **Leah ** 50:04 Yeah, you're going to get disabled, you're gonna get sick and disabled. **Margaret ** 50:07 Like it literally happens to--unless you, I don't know, die very quickly, very suddenly, probably violently, you're gonna go through a period of disability in your life, you know? And so my argument is that machismo is anti-prepping. And one of the ways that I would say is that like, there's now, I think.... Okay, so cement bags, they come in 50 pound bags traditionally, right? But now there's more and more, I think, there seems to be more and more 30 pound bags, right? And I used to be like, "Oh, whatever, I can lift a 50 pound bag. So I should carry the 50 pound bag." And then I'm like, well, it was not a helpful way to look at it. It is far better for me to just have 30 pound bags of cement because they're easier to carry and I'll get tired less. And I, you know, at the time that I was pouring these bags, I lived up a hill about probably the equivalent of a seven storey walk up to this cabin that I was building, right. And so I had to carry each and every one. It was way nicer that I carry 30 pound bags. And if your preparedness doesn't include the fact that your level of ability will change in different situations, then it's not very good preparedness. And and so like, I don't know, I mean, like most of my water jugs are four or five gallon jugs. I use jerry cans. I think most of them are five gallon. And I hate the six gallon ones and the seven gallon ones. They're just heavy and annoying. And it's like I can give lift them but there's no reason why I should. Unless I'm specifically working on lifting weights. And then the other thing that you talked about that I really think about a lot, you know, is this idea, of does your version of disaster mean that every doctor dies? Or like, does your version of disaster mean everyone who's ever made insulin dies? Like, it's possible. Sure, you could have 90...if almost everyone on Earth dies, then everything is a little different. But most disasters don't actually..... Most disasters destroy ways of living and large numbers of people, but not the majority of people write. Most people survive most disasters. And, people are like, "Well, our organizational systems are what produce insulin," and like, no, people produce insulin and they use organizational systems with which to do it. But different organizational systems can also produce insulin. Like different organizational systems can use the same infrastructure sometimes and make the things that we rely on. And it came up with this like whole thing where people on the internet were like, "Ah, if you're an anarchist, you hate disabled people because in anarchy, you can't have insulin," **Leah ** 50:28 That's gross. **Margaret ** 52:40 It is a complete misunderstanding of anarchism. It is not a lack of organization, it is a different type of organization. **Leah ** 52:46 Anarchy is responsibility. **Margaret ** 52:48 Yes, totally. **Leah ** 52:50 Sorry, sorry. **Margaret ** 52:52 That's why people don't like it. People are afraid of it because they actually have to.... It's the accepting no one is coming to save us except us. You know? No, I love that way of framing and it also annoys anarchists when you tell them this too. **Leah ** 53:07 Okay, well, I mean, you know, so I worked at Modern Times books, which was, you know, is no longer around, but was a long time anarchists and anti authoritarian radical bookstore in the Bay. And we had the only public toilet in all of the Mission because everybody else was like, "No, you gotta buy something." and in my interview, they're like, "How will you make the store better?" And I was like, "I will make the bathroom not smell horrible." Because, you know, it was just like a bust, everyone was pissing in there. And so I taped up a sign that said "Anarchy is responsibility. If you spray the fucking toilet with urine, please wipe it up. Together we can have a toilet." And somebody called me out and was like, "That's capitalist." And I was like, "No, just wipe your piss up or we're not gonna make the revolution. Like, come on." But yeah, they got pissed at me about that. [Both laugh] But yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good point. And it's like, you know, I mean, I think that it does point to, you know, I think a structural problem in a lot of our movements, which is like, yeah, we don't we need more people who know some basics of chemistry and can synthesize stuff. Like, that's, you know, we need more people who've gone to some kind of science or engineering school who can figure out how sewage works and how you synthesize insulin and how you synthesize hormones and like, basic surgery. And I think there's a lot of hopefulness because I--maybe it's just the folks I hang out with--but I have a fair number of friends who are like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be a nurse practitioner. I can give you an abortion. I can sew up your wound. I can help you figure out this thing." And I'd love for there to be more of us who can go to PA school or

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Sophie and Parker from No More Deaths to talk about the militarization of the US-Mexico border and the most recent installment of the "Disappeared" report series "Separate & Deadly." Guest Info The Disappeared report can be found at www.thedisappearedreport.org. No More Deaths can be found at nomoredeaths.org, on Instagram @nomoredeaths_nomasmuertes, or on Twitter @nomoredeaths. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript No More Death on The “Disappeared” Reports & Border Militarization Pt. I **Inmn ** 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcasts for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Inmn, and today we have some folks coming on that I've really wanted to get on the podcast for a while because I think that the work that they do is just really incredible and I want more people to know about it. So we have two folks from No More Deaths, or No Mas Muertes, coming on. And No More Deaths is a humanitarian aid group whose goal is to, you know, prevent death and suffering in the borderlands. And they work primarily in southern Arizona in response to rampant border militarization. And I'm really excited that they have this new report coming out in their series of reports called the "Disappeared" series. And their new report, "Separate & Deadly", just came out. And we'll have links in the show notes to where to find it to read the whole thing. And I'm really excited to have folks from, specifically, the abuse doc, or abuse documentation, working group, coming on because I think a lot of focus gets put on the physical doing, the putting out water, and all of that, and that stuff is really important, you know, obviously, but I also think it's great to really highlight the work that a lot of people have been doing to document the reason and the need and the reactions from Border Patrol and other governmental bodies in response to this humanitarian aid. And so yeah, I don't know, I'm really excited to highlight this particular aspect of that work. But before we get to that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo. **Inmn ** 03:19 And we're back. Thanks, y'all so much for coming on the show today to talk about this thing. Could y'all introduce yourselves with your name, pronouns, and I guess what your role is with No More Deaths and this report? **Parker ** 03:37 Yeah, I can go first. My name is Parker. I use she/her pronouns. I have been involved with No More Deaths since about 2015. I came down and started volunteering in the desert. Moved to Tucson a little bit after that. So I've been involved with desert aid and then also involved with the abuse documentation working group producing the Disappeared report that we're going to talk about. Sophie and I were co-coordinators for several years working on that project and then have both been involved as volunteers. **Sophie ** 04:10 Hi, my name is Sophie and I use she/they pronouns. And I've been a volunteer with No More Deaths since 2011, volunteering with desert aid and also with community-based search and rescue and I'm a co-author for the Disappeared report series and co-coordinated with Parker on this report. **Inmn ** 04:29 Cool. And for folks who don't know, what is No More Deaths? What does No More Deaths do? **Parker ** 04:49 No More Deaths is a humanitarian aid organization whose mission is to end death and suffering in the borderlands. No More Deaths was formed in 2004 in response to rising deaths of people crossing the border. There's a number of different working groups and projects under the No More Deaths umbrella. So Sophie and I have been a part of the abuse documentation working group, documenting the kinds of things we're seeing in the course of the work. There's desert aid. They do water drops, where we bring out water and food and leave them on migrant trails in the remote borderlands. We maintain a humanitarian aid camp where people can come and get food and water and respite. We do a community-based search and rescue project where there's a hotline and we get reports of people who have gone missing while crossing the border and can send out volunteers to do search and rescue. We also do some support in Northern Mexico for post-deportation or pre-departure support. Yeah, so there's a lot of different projects under this umbrella but all for humanitarian aid trying to provide support for people who are crossing the border in southern Arizona. **Inmn ** 05:59 Cool. Yeah, y'all do so many different things. And I've been wanting to get someone from the group to come talk about stuff for a while now. I used to volunteer with y'all and I reference border-aid stuff on the podcast a lot. So I'm just really stoked to have you all here to talk about this. And the new report was a great opportunity to wrangle some folks into coming on. I was wondering, though, if y'all could share a little bit about like the...I guess the context of the border and, specifically, border militarization and Border Patrol's role in that to kind of build a little foundation for what we're going to talk about today. **Sophie ** 06:51 Yeah, so, when talking about the militarization of the US-Mexico border, usually, we're kind of looking at a time period of the last 30 years or so starting in 1994--which certainly wasn't the start of border militarization--but was a signal year in terms of the enforcement strategy on the border really shifting gears. So in 1994--many people remember that year because it was the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which had really huge consequences for migration. We know that NAFTA contained neoliberal economic reforms that took away tariffs and barriers to trade and lead things like US subsidized corn to flood the market in Mexico which drove down prices and then spiked this labor-driven migration of people who had historically been able to make ends meet through farming heritage corn and no longer could compete. So we know that NAFTA sparked this labor-division migration. We know that's not the first time that US policy has sparked migrations across the border. But what was different in 1994 was at the same time the US Border Patrol came together to come up with a policing strategy of how they were going to control the border given this expected rise in labor-driven migration from south to north. And so Border Patrol met with security heads from the Department of Defense, who are versed in conducting regime change and low intensity conflict doctrine throughout Latin America in the 80s. And they produced a new strategy for how they're going to police the 2000 mile southern border. The strategy that they came up with is called Prevention Through Deterrence, which is kind of a technical and clunky title for a really nefarious strategy. So the theory was that the southern border couldn't be sealed off entirely despite all the rhetoric we see about, you know, border walls, sealing the southern border. The Border Patrol observed that the border couldn't actually be sealed from migration, but that the flow of migration across the border could be controlled. And so Border Patrol sought to concentrate enforcement resources--so, personnel, vehicles, infrastructure like walls, surveillance technology--in and around ports of entry in urban areas along the border where migration had historically flowed as a mechanism that would then push people attempting across the southern border without official permission out into remote areas along the border between ports of entry between cities. so especially huge expanses of desert along the border. And the strategy document--which is public, you can look at it online--specifically says that the strategy intends to push people out into remote areas where they can find themselves in mortal danger as a consequence of being exposed to the elements without access to food, water, or rescue. And the belief was that by pushing people into these remote areas, a certain number of people would not make it. They would be deterred, either having to turn back or they would perish and that this would then dissuade others from attempting the journey. It would prevent rising levels of migration. This was the theory, Prevention Through Deterrence, that by making the border as deadly, as costly as possible to cross, that this would deter others...it would prevent others from attempting the journey. And so what happens is that Border Patrol puts up walls, installs surveillance technology in and around ports of entry in places like El Paso/Juarez, in places like Nogales, in places like San Diego/Tijuana, all at the end of the 1990s. And indeed, this shifts patterns of migration, undocumented migration, out into these really remote regions of the desert, where people are having to undertake multi-day journeys on foot through really rugged geography. And immediately we start to see hundreds of remains, human remains, recovered from remote areas of the border by 2000, 2001, and 2002 as a result of this policy, people who are dying from things like exposure to the elements or whose death cause is actually not able to be determined because their remains have decomposed so much before they've been located because they're perishing in such remote areas. So this humanitarian crisis opens up on the border in the early 2000s. And this is what humanitarian groups like No More Deaths and others start attempting to respond to. And this is still the policy that we see on the southern border. Of course, it's been bolstered by things like the 2006 Secure Fence Act, which really increased the number of Border Patrol agents on the line dramatically and allowed agents to start to patrol remote areas and rural communities in addition to being stationed in cities, to push people out into the desert, and also extended funding for walls. We also have seen more recent walls go up under the Trump administration. And now Biden's also funding that, But this is still the strategy under which Border Patrol is policing the southern border. And, again, this was never a strategy to close the border but to try to control the rate of crossing by making it as deadly or dangerous as possible. And so the thing about Prevention Through Deterrence is that it's been incredibly successful in pushing people out into remote areas where they find themselves in mortal danger, that that, indeed, was a prediction that that did come to pass. We know that the remains of at least 10,000 people have been recovered from the southern border. And experts estimate that the true number of deaths are probably three to ten times higher than that number, because so many people are perishing in such remote areas that their remains are never found or if they're found they're never identifiable. So we call this a crisis of death and disappearance on the border due to that phenomenon. But we also know that Prevention Through Deterrence has been a real failure in terms of preventing undocumented crossing on the southern border. This policy has coincided with a lot of measures to cut off legal paths of entry, shrink asylum programs, refugee programs, and further criminalize migration. And as a consequence, more and more populations are being caught up into this system. And more and more families are moving to the US permanently rather than risk multiple crossings to migrate seasonally for work or things like that. So this is the same system under which a lot of people fleeing conditions in the Northern Triangle as a consequence of US policy in the hemisphere, they're being caught up in this system of migration too. And we know that there's at least 13 million people now residing in the US who don't have documentation or full status or protection or rights as a consequence of this. So this is really the context in which humanitarian groups are trying to respond by providing food, water, and even improvised emergency medical services in these remote areas. And it's also a context in which, in terms of abuse documentation, there's a real need for witnessing and documentation of what's happening on the ground out in the back country where Border Patrol agents are operating daily with no witnesses and virtual impunity. So this was really kind of the context that gave rise to the abuse documentation project in general and these reports more specifically, **Inmn ** 15:38 Cool.... Or I mean, you know, not "cool," but thank you for walking us through that. I've heard a lot...you know, over the years, I've heard a lot of...been to a lot of trainings where there's like a border militarization context and I don't know that I've ever heard it put so succinctly and neatly. So that's...that is incredible. And, yeah, it's funny, because when I was putting together notes for the show today, I had like a little note, like, "Oh, make sure to talk about the Deterrence Through Death strategy." And then I was like, "Wait, is that what it's called?" And then I couldn't remember if that's like, what it was officially called, or not. And then, yeah...remembering that it was maybe not called that-- **Parker ** 16:33 No, that's just what it is. **Inmn ** 16:34 Yeah. That's just what it is. Okay, well, could y'all, I guess, maybe with that foundation, what is the abuse doc working group then do? And like how did the "Disappeared" report series come to be? **Parker ** 16:52 Yeah, the abuse documentation working group, it's been, you know, around through a number of different projects with different volunteers leading them. A lot of the earlier reports that No More Deaths was putting out were focused on detention. So we put out a report called "Culture of Cruelty" that really focused on really inhumane conditions, abusive conditions, within Border Patrol custody--so short term Border Patrol custody before people are deported or turned over to ICE--and focusing on things such as denial of food and water, denial of medical care, psychological abuse.... Just yeah, really horrible conditions, people being held longer than they're legally supposed to without being given phone calls and things like that. So that report primarily was done through interviews with people who had been deported and just kind of arose out of the conversations people were having with people through our support work at shelters there and hearing the conditions that they were being held under. So "Culture of Cruelty" was one of our earlier reports. We put out "Shakedown," which focuses on Border Patrol's, seizing up people's belongings when people are in Border Patrol custody without returning it. And both of those reports really focused on advocacy and trying to, you know, push for policy changes in response to these patterns that we were documenting. And I think people sort of had the experience of, you know, providing really clear documentation and then seeing that Border Patrol is still just denying the same things that, you know, we're showing proof of and not seeing the changes that they wanted to see come out of those reports. The "Disappeared" series, I think was a shift, organizationally, in wanting to really document what's happening in these remote borderlands areas and really push our messaging to call for the abolition of Border Patrol and really just say what we wanted to say politically and document things that there was really no documentation of at that time. So the "Disappeared" report series, it's focusing on the actions of Border Patrol in remote borderlands areas where there's, you know, there's no transparency whatsoever about what's happening, because there has been this intentional push to push migration into wilderness areas and really focusing on Prevention Through Deterrence but also the way that the day-to-day actions of Border Patrol agents are consistent with this logic of increasing the risk of death to people who are migrating in the ways that that logic is carried out on the ground. And it was a collaborative project. So the "Disappeared" report series started as a collaboration between No More Deaths and another organization called La Coalición de Derechos Humanos, who has been really vocal against militarization from the very beginning. At the time Derechos Humanos, they were operating a missing migrant crisis line, similar to what No More Deaths operates now, so they were receiving this huge volume of calls from family members reporting their loved ones who were missing. And No More Deaths started to collaborate with them with doing search and rescue in the field when they received a call where there was a viable possibility that that person was still alive and could be rescued. So that collaboration led to the "Disappeared" report series. And, yeah, so we've put out, this is the fourth installment of the "Disappeared" report series. **Inmn ** 20:32 So what have the other parts of the "Disappeared" reports explored? **Parker ** 20:37 Um, yeah, so the first report focuses on deadly apprehension methods, particularly on the practice of Chase and Scatter in the wilderness. So this is documenting a practice that, you know, we see and hear about every day in the course of this work, where Border Patrol chases groups of migrating people causing them to scatter and become separated from each other in the remote wilderness, often not detaining a lot of the people who have become separated. And this is really the beginning of a cycle of death and disappearance because when people are scattered in the wilderness like this, they can become injured in the chase, they become separated from their group, which may include family members that they were traveling with, separated from a guide, they become lost and disoriented, you know, people are crossing in this area that have no familiarity with the landscape. So a lot of the time when we encounter people who are, you know, in a life threatening situation, it's because they've been chased and scattered by Border Patrol. And so they're now lost and alone in the wilderness. People lose their belongings in the chase, lose their food, water. And so this is something that, you know, with the hotline where we receive calls from family members, a lot of the time they're saying, you know, "My loved one was chased by Border Patrol. They don't know where they are. They're separated from their group. They need to be rescued." This is so routine Border Patrol really doesn't see it as an abuse. They see it as the way that they are enforcing the border. But it is an extremely dangerous enforcement practice. **Sophie ** 22:10 In the practice of chase and scatter that we examined in part one, we looked at surveys conducted in Nogales as well as the Derechos hotline cases and found that chase and scatter by Border Patrol agents is incredibly common, as Parker was saying, that we found that 40% of people who had been chased by Border Patrol became injured or even killed through the process of that chase. 40% of people who had been chased and scattered became lost. And 35% of the emergency cases that we looked at that involved chase and scatter ended in the disappearance of the person who came into distress after that enforcement context. So it's really a way in which Border Patrol's daily activities are reinforcing the strategy of Prevention Through Deterrence on the ground by sending helicopters and vehicles and agents on foot and dogs after people in remote areas who run in every direction often late at night when Border Patrol agents have night vision goggles. And, you know, we looked at the way in which they've actually documented this activity themselves on the Cops-style reality show, Border Wars, that has many scenes of chase and scatter. So we looked at some of that in which Border Patrol is actually documenting their own crimes and using it as propaganda for the agency. **Inmn ** 23:55 I didn't know that that TV show existed. That's...yeah...that's absurd. **Sophie ** 24:02 I don't recommend it. But it was helpful in kind of...you know, we're interested in the way in which these agencies are providing evidence of their own abuses. **Inmn ** 24:20 Yeah, and I like for.... I guess, for the chase and scatter protocol, like, you know, not that I would prefer that people get apprehended, but why.... I guess, why do the chase and scatter thing instead of apprehending people, which seems to be what Border Patrol like tells the public they're trying to do versus like what they actually do. **Sophie ** 24:48 I mean, I think that chase and scatter is part of a more general pattern where we're seeing migrating people being treated as enemy combatants, enemies of the state, against whom it's somehow appropriate to deploy all the weapons of war. And I think watching Border Wars, you really do see this as war games to an extent. And I think that, you know, the other piece of that, beyond just wanting to, you know, use the kind of military-style equipment that they're given--and we're talking about this, by the way, in the context of like, we're on US soil where this is happening. This is like anywhere from the border line all the way to 100 miles within the US interior is the terrain in which Border Patrol is operating. And when you look at death maps, you can see recovered remains kind of scattered far into the US interior. But really, you know, from Border Patrol's perspective, whether they apprehend a person or they scatter them so that they become lost, disoriented, and in harm's way, either of those outcomes reinforce the strategy of Prevention Through Deterrence, right? On the one hand, you have increased apprehensions as a way to, you know, in their minds, deter others from attempting the journey. And on the other, you have injury and death as a way to build up that deterrent. Again, we see that that deterrence ultimately doesn't work when measured against the conditions that people are leaving or fleeing from in order to cross the border. But both outcomes absolutely serve the overall strategy of Prevention Through Deterrence. And I think it's just another way in which we see people's lives, who are crossing the border, being treated as disposable and not deserving of the kinds of protections afforded to us, right, that it's not important to them whether they apprehend everyone, whether people become lost, and those people are not even counted. So I think that that sort of a deeper structural violence at play in these scenarios. **Parker ** 26:56 Was gonna say the same thing. I think there's sort of just like an institutionalized lack of concern for the outcomes that people face, especially because the outcome of someone potentially dying is baked into the strategy. I remember one of our co-authors talking about when they released the "Chase and Scatter" report, talking to a Border Patrol agent, who I think at the time was the head of they're Missing Migrant Initiative, just saying, you know, "Oh, yeah, I never even thought about what happened to people after we chased them." So, you know, they scatter a group, they arrest a couple people, they call it a day. They don't think about it, and if that person is lost and alone and doesn't have water, well, that's consistent with their enforcement anyways. **Sophie ** 27:37 Right. And the border is just a kind of erratic and contradictory zone where on the one hand, the US-Mexico border zone is one of the most heavily surveilled places on Earth, right, in which enforcement can consolidate in these moments and become incredibly violent. You can be, you know, killed by a heavily armed agent with all these weapons of war, treated as this enemy combatant, on the one hand. On the other hand, you can die of exposure and dehydration and, you know, being in an area where you don't see another person for days at a time. So there's sort of these two forces of, you know, militarism and direct violence, on the one hand, these kinds of really violent kind of events, and then on the other, the forces of abandonment, right, where there's no one to help you. And these things work together. Which is sort of difficult to grasp when you're in that zone, right? If you're circulating in the border zone--and I mean, all of us know this from volunteering--you can see no one the whole day and then suddenly come up upon a heavily armed agent who wants to point their AK47 at you. You know, both of these kinds of forces of indirect violence, of abandonment, and direct violence exist in this geography. **Inmn ** 28:56 Yeah. I know this is maybe a little outside the scope of what we're going to talk about today but I was wondering if y'all could briefly just talk a little bit about the legal systems that people are facing when they are apprehended? Like what is the process of like being...going from like being apprehended to being deported look like? **Parker ** 29:22 Yeah, well, so people are, when they're detained in the field, they're held in short term Border Patrol custody, where, you know, like I was mentioning before, we've documented all kinds of abuses that people face in custody. I remember early on in Trump's presidency, there was this really high-profile news story about a seven year old who died in Border Patrol custody, who, you know, hadn't received water or medical care. And I remember us, you know, just calling attention to the fact that we've been documenting that same pattern for, you know, like over a decade. So people are held in Border Patrol custody, which is supposed to not be any longer than three days maximum. It's supposed to be shorter. Some people at that point are rapidly deported. And then we also saw, you know, these last few years, under Title 42 people being just rapidly deported immediately upon being detained in the field without any sort of legal process. And then other times, you know, people are held in ICE custody or they're held in detention centers. And then there's also Operation Streamline where people are--some people--are given criminal charges. And then they are, you know, fed into our regular criminal justice system. But they have, you know, it's this total farce of justice where they call it Operation Streamline and they'll bring 70 people a day and just charge them all at once. And that's for Criminal Entry or Re-entry. And people just have to, essentially, plead guilty to the lower charge of Criminal Entry instead of Re-entry so that they can face six months instead of two years. So we're also just feeding people into our prison system as well as into the ICE detention system. **Inmn ** 31:02 And do charges like that preclude someone from being able to apply for asylum or other kind legal processes for documented immigration. **Parker ** 31:16 Yeah, I imagine they do. I don't think it's really my or Sophie's wheelhouse, the legal immigration system. I do know that, you know, theoretically, people who are detained by Border Patrol could request asylum, but there's a lot of documentation of Border Patrol, you know, not asking or ignoring people when they do say that they want to make an asylum claim after detaining people in the desert. **Inmn ** 31:35 Yeah, yeah. Um, I guess to shift a little bit more into the current report, I was wondering if y'all could talk a little bit about, I guess, like the third report "Left to Die" as a prelude to what we're going to talk about today? **Sophie ** 32:00 Should we talk about Part Two really quick before? **Inmn ** 32:05 Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's Part Two. Sorry, we skipped Part Two. Yeah, what happened? What happened in Part Two? **Parker ** 32:11 Part Two documented interference with humanitarian aid. So pretty early on, when No More Deaths started to do water drops, we started to find that our water drops would sometimes be vandalized or destroyed. People would stab water gallons, dump them out. We put out cans of beans. People would dump those out or stab them so that they rot. And we anecdotally believed that Border Patrol was responsible for at least some amount of this destruction, just from seeing them near the drops and then finding them vandalized or just the drops being out in areas where Border Patrol is the only other person out there. But to document this, we started to put out game cameras on a lot of the drops that were regularly vandalized and trying to capture footage, which is pretty difficult. The game cameras, like they turn on anytime, you know, the wind blows and the grass moves. So a lot of the time we would come and find the battery dead, but the drop had been vandalized, but we didn't get any footage. But over the years, we did collect footage. And we got several instances of Border Patrol on camera destroying these water drops, stabbing them with knives, things like that. So we wanted to document this pattern in that report. So in addition to that footage, we did an analysis of all of the logs that we keep from every water drop that we go to, where we mark instances of vandalization and just kind of looked at the scope of it, if there were any patterns and where it was happening and when it was happening. And Sophie, do you have some of those findings handy? **Sophie ** 33:47 So just for context, the main part of No More Deaths' work over the years has been mapping migration trails. People undertake anywhere from three days to over a week of a journey through the deserts through really labyrinthian topography, especially in southern Arizona. It's high desert. So it's really mountainous with a system of canyons and there's just thousands of trail systems that have been created over time in the back country that are routes that people are taking across into the United States. So we've located, you know, certain areas of high concentration where we'll place drops of water and food and other supplies, like Parker was mentioning, to try to mitigate death and suffering in those areas. So we looked at the records that were kept by No More Deaths volunteers over three years in which over 30,000 gallons of water were left in the backcountry. And within that we were seeing that 86% of the water that we put out does get used, that this is a really important harm reduction measure to support life in the backcountry as people are on their journey. But we also found that at least 3,586 gallons of water, so over 3000 gallons of water, had been vandalized or destroyed in at least 415 different destruction events. And as Parker was mentioning, you know, really early on we got footage of Border Patrol destroying water. There's kind of an infamous video that we put out of a Border Patrol agent kicking gallons of water that had been put out at a water drop. We got more footage and, you know, have a lot of anecdotal evidence reinforcing this. And that report also then looked at Border Patrol action on humanitarian aid stations, attempts to repress or prosecute volunteers with non-governmental organizations like No More Deaths and others doing this kind of harm reduction work. And so that report looked at a series of attempted prosecutions. There were cases in which volunteers are given littering tickets for putting out water on migration trails as if water is somehow trash in the desert among other cases. I don't know if Parker wants to speak to that more directly. But we're looking at kind of that as, you know, both the destruction of water and the charging...the attempted criminalization of volunteers trying to prevent loss of life as kind of a repressive campaign that Border Patrol is leading against humanitarians coincident with the agency really trying to up its PR and branding as itself, somehow, a humanitarian actor on the border. So this report was being written at the same time that Border Patrol is doing things like publishing the number of border deaths, according to them, versus the number of "rescues" that they apparently conducted. And we'll get more into it in part three, but really trying to say...make these claims that overall, somehow, they're humanitarian actors in this gauntlet of their own making. So that was sort of some of the spirit behind that report was to provide evidence, direct evidence, to the contrary. **Parker ** 37:31 Yeah, I guess just to the interference with humanitarian aid, the interference with volunteer humanitarian aid, one thing that we do focus on in that report too is the raids of our humanitarian aid camp. So I mentioned we maintain a constant presence in the desert at our humanitarian aid camp. And Border Patrol has a history of conducting raids at this camp. So coming and surrounding it, providing a lot of like intimidation, as well as a few times when they have entered the camp and arrested people who were there receiving care. So really just like creating this atmosphere of intimidation, specifically at a humanitarian aid camp. And in one of those raids, they mentioned that they had tracked people for 18 miles until they got to the camp, at which point they surrounded the camp for multiple days until they came in and arrested people. So directly interfering with the provision of humanitarian aid. The charging of volunteers, actually, a note about the timing of that is that this report actually came out before a lot of criminal charges were filed against our volunteers. And in fact, the day that this report came out and the day that we released this footage of Border Patrol destroying water gallons, Scott Warren, one of our volunteers, was arrested six hours later that same day, **Inmn ** 38:45 Which spawned like a multi-year legal battle, right? **Parker ** 38:50 It did result in him being acquitted by a jury. **Sophie ** 38:55 Yes, Scott Warren was charged with multiple felonies, felony harboring and smuggling, for volunteering at a No More Deaths aid station in the area of Ajo, Arizona, where he provided first aid and care to patients who had sought help at that aid station. Right. And that, you know, was a huge court process. There were multiple trials. The first one ended in a hung jury and the second one he was acquitted on all charges. But there is a lot of discussion in court as to, you know, to what extent was his arrest retaliation for the releasing of our second report. There was evidence that Border Patrol agents had knowledge of the report that morning. So we really saw that as retaliatory. But at the same time, his acquittal then provided, you know, important case law within the district to provide a certain, you know, measure of protection for providing humanitarian care to people in the borderlands. So it was really important ,kind of, instruction to us regarding the legality of our work, the kind of defense that can be waged in support of volunteers. So ultimately, it was a victory that really kind of reinforced the foundations of our work in that way. There was a huge effort, huge struggle for Scott personally and, you know, really aimed to have a chilling effect on the work in the desert overall. **Inmn ** 40:27 Yeah, that trial was...that trial was crazy. Like, I don't know, I went to the...like, I attended a couple of days of the court process and I just remember listening to the prosecutor try to make absolutely absurd claims in court, that drinking water might be harmful to someone as like a reason for why humanitarian aid organizations shouldn't leave water in the desert for people. And I was like, this is like a highly paid criminal prosecutor who's trying to argue, and like get doctors to agree with, the absurd claim that drinking water might be harmful to someone who's experiencing dehydration. And I'm just like...this is a farce. **Sophie ** 41:24 Some of them were so bizarre. Well, and the smuggling charge was only based on him being seen, not heard, outside of the aid station, seen pointing to the mountains while talking to the patients. And because he was pointing north, that was considered an act of smuggling, which I thought was incredible. And there was this really powerful moment where Scott did take the stand and said "I was saying, 'There's one highway going through this huge expanse of incredibly deadly desert. And so don't walk towards those mountains because there's no help if you come into harm's way to the east. To the west, it's another 20 miles before you'll hit another major road. If you're in trouble, find the highway, right?'" So given, you know, knowing that these two patients were planning to reenter the back country and trying to give, you know, life saving information was considered to be an act of smuggling. And then I also remember the prosecutor in his closing arguments on the last day, putting up a picture that had been taken of volunteers with the patients after they'd recovered to a certain degree, where they were smiling and claiming that these patients were basically on vacation in the United States, who had gone through, you know, life or death, kind of, harrowing circumstances traveling through one of the most deadly corridors along the whole border. And they were so lucky to be alive by the time they reached Ajo. And somehow, the prosecutor wanted the jury to believe that they were just hamming it up and having a great time on vacation. And it was incredible at that trial to sit in on and relieving to see that those arguments didn't really hold water in the end. **Inmn ** 43:23 Yeah, and...but also, I don't know, it's frightening to see what the legal system can bring charges to bear on someone where they have absolutely no evidence and that it can then take multiple years and obscene amounts of community resources to defend these charges. I don't know. It's...which I don't know, is maybe maybe purposeful by them. I don't know. Just...this is also a little bit outside of the scope, but I feel like people are a little...or might be a little curious...if.... Like, under the law, like what...for people who live in the borderlands, if someone comes to your door what aid can you offer people without legal complications? **Sophie ** 44:25 Yeah. **Inmn ** 44:28 Or, I guess, like, what does the law define as aiding and abetting or smuggling or human trafficking, right, as we've seen people get charged with? **Sophie ** 44:38 I mean, I'll say that I'm not a lawyer. Parker is on the way to becoming one. But I can say to--and I think Parker will have something to add to this--but first of all, under US law, there's no obligation of any citizen to report on the status of anyone else to law enforcement. So if I know that someone is undocumented, there's no law that says I must report their status to the authorities. So there's that to begin with, that if someone comes to your door who you know is crossing through the desert, you don't have any obligation to report them to law enforcement under the law. And then, I mean, this is interesting because there's the kind of word of the law and then there's its interpretation, right? And a lot of what we.... I think what Scott's case provided is some really important interpretation of the law. So we know that, you know, there's a specification that it's illegal to further someone's illegal presence in the country. That's the language. Which means that, you know, things like food, water, shelter, medical care, rest, meals, clothing, none of that's actually furthering that person's presence in the country. So there's kind of a wide range of harm reduction that you can provide perfectly legally, right? And I think I've heard a lawyer once be like, you know, "Is taking your friend to dinner furthering their presence in the country? You know? No." So really, we get into issues of like, are you actually attempting to conceal that person from law enforcement? Are you hosting them as a guest? You know, what is the intent behind your actions? And in any felony case, it's not just simply that you're...you can't be convicted.... Part of the conviction of a felony involves your mens rea, it's your mental state when committing whatever act you committed. So it's not just that you, you know, invited someone into your house. It's what was the intent behind you inviting them into your house? And so a lot of these cases hone in on, were you hiding someone in your basement? Or were you having them in your guest room? Right? Were you driving the person as a passenger in your car? Or were they hiding in your truck? Things like this, when we get into smuggling cases, intent indicated by the way you're interacting really matters in these cases. And that was really at play and in Scott's trial, right, there was an argument that because people had been provided shelter in an indoor aid station that somehow demonstrated concealment because they were behind four walls, right? Which doesn't hold up, right? I have guests at my house and I'm not concealing them from law enforcement just because they're inside. So we get down to the nitty gritty of interpretation with these kinds of statutes. And that's why these cases really matter in how they play out in court, how further answers are being defined. Parker, did you have thoughts on that? **Parker ** 47:54 Um, I think a lot of what I was gonna say is the same as what you said, the language of furthering someone's presence, I think, has been one that in No More Deaths, sort of, like analyzing our legal exposure, have focused on. For example, if you do encounter someone who is in critical medical condition and the nearest hospital is Nogales, you know, you can drive them there. That's not furthering their presence. But, you know, I think ultimately, it comes down to I think this is sort of like a perennial question in No More Deaths as people try to define what exactly is and isn't legal. And as we all know, that doesn't necessarily have bearing on, you know, what the State will try to argue is illegal. And, you know, Scott, what Scott did was perfectly legal in all of our opinions. If we'd had a different jury, he still could have been convicted regardless. So I think the language leaves a lot open to interpretation. And, you know, with the repressive State, they can say that it's illegal. In fact, I think, even in the...we also had a number of misdemeanor charges that volunteers were facing and some went to trial for. The State in that case, was trying to argue that humanitarian aid itself is interfering with the government's compelling interest in enforcing the border. So when their enforcement tactic is to try and increase the threat to people's lives. They can see humanitarian aid, as you know, a threat to that border enforcement and furthering people's illegal presence by simply helping them to survive, which that particular argument that the State made was specifically addressed on appeal and the judge said, "This is grotesque. This is horrifying logic on the part of the government." but they still tried to make that argument. **Inmn ** 49:42 Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks y'all for getting into that a little bit. I think as like a tie in to a general theme of the podcast is, you know, community preparedness. And I think something that like...I think something that like, you know, people who don't spend time thinking a lot about community preparedness or aren't radical leftists, or like whatever, think about these questions of like, "Oh, if like I encounter someone who needs help, like, what am I going to do? How am I going to help that person?" versus like, "What is my fear of doing something illegal that could get me in trouble?" And I worry that like...I worry that people having myths or misinterpretations or listening to whatever propaganda Border Patrol is spewing, that people won't act to help people or to save someone's life because they think that they're doing something that could get them in trouble. And that fear of legal trouble is greater than the desire to help people, which I don't think is true, but like something that I think people worry about, if that makes sense. **Sophie ** 51:06 Yeah, I mean, I can say, I live in Arivaca, which is the town that No More Deaths bases a lot of its work out of. It's a rural town 11 miles from the border. And residents, they're sitting in the middle of this migration corridor and everyone who lives there has had a knock on their door of someone who's lost, often extremely sick or injured and looking for help. And it's also a town that's under virtual, you know, it's actually...it's not unique in the sense that all these towns along the border are now, you know, living under virtual Border Patrol occupation. They're surrounded by Border Patrol checkpoints. You can't go to the doctor, you can't go to the bank without passing through a checkpoint and talking to an armed guard. And there's a heavy presence of Border Patrol in and around town, which has the function of, on the one hand, they're doing these things like chase and scatter and on the other, this kind of high visibility is really intimidating to the public, right? You feel like you're up against this virtual domestic army and intimidation is real. And they're coming on to people's property without notice, often pointing guns at residents, harassing locals, especially people of color. So education and Know Your Rights trainings have been so paramount because at the same time, you know, Border Patrol policy has put these communities on the front lines as the first responders when people are coming through incredibly remote areas. And the first lights they see, the first roads they come to, the first buildings are these residents in these rural communities. They're kind of a natural source of support. And I think Border Patrol has a vested interest in trying to break apart the historic practice before and beyond organizations like No More Deaths of residents opening their door and giving a hand, getting water to anyone who's out in the desert and in trouble. So I think what you're saying Inmn has been like a real focus of organizing and I know it has been an Ajo where Scott lives as well, where they have a local project also doing Know Your Rights education and providing humanitarian resources and things like that to try to break apart Border Patrol's attempt to recruit the local population into their really deadly enforcement regime. And I think that there's been this really vibrant history of border communities, offering that support and facing down the really intimidating presence of this incredibly well resourced, militarized enforcement agency in and around their communities. You know, so I think it's critical. **Inmn ** 53:57 Yeah. And it's like seeing communities in Arivaca and Ajo and the Tohono O'odham Nation really band together to combat these narratives that Border Patrol or the government are trying to really make people think are true and I don't know.... Yeah, that has been one of the most inspiring things to me about doing border aid work or anything like that is seeing the communities that have really like sprung up to...or the communities that like have forever been doing this kind of work and like how they maintain that work and use that to build community rather than divide community. I don't know. I don't know. I just.... Like, God, I remember hearing someone once say they were like, "I don't care what the government says. I'm going to give...if someone comes to my door, I'm giving them food, dammit." And I was like, hell yeah. You're awesome. And this is like someone who I like don't expect to have any other political alignment with. But like, we agreed on that. And I was like, that's awesome. **Parker ** 54:02 No, totally, I've had a few similar experiences in Tucson of just, you know, meeting...like talking to my Uber driver or someone, you know, that I've come into contact with completely unrelated to any sort of political work, you know, and then talking to them and them saying, "Oh, yeah, I ran into someone who was crossing once and gave them a lift to the gas station so they could buy some food and water," you know, like, just thing like that, where it's, you know, there is, on the one hand, this real fear of criminalization that like Border Patrol has created, but then on the other hand, there's just such a natural impulse for humanity for people to, you know, give someone water or lift or, you know, whatever it is that they're needing. **Inmn ** 56:12 Yeah, yeah. And I know I'm just riffing off a specific organization's name right now. But it's almost like, it's really important for people to help other people and to just treat them like people because they're people. We're all just people trying to help people. [There's an organization called People Helping People] **Sophie ** 56:33 Yeah, and it's part of this kind of longer, you know, history of social movement, I think, you know, whether we're talking about Germans sheltering Jews or underground railroad or, you know, it's always been that when you have a general population get caught up in these kinds of violent campaigns that are trying to, you know, discriminate and punish people based on identity, there are always locals who won't comply. And I think that it's heartening to see that tradition, you know, continue on the border in southern Arizona, like you're saying, Inmn against really, you know, among really unlikely actors. Like many people I know in Arivaca might hold really racist beliefs but still are always going to give a person water and food a bed to stay in because they're people, right? So it's a really kind of interesting moment in which ideology sort of doesn't hold up to the needs...to the human needs of the present. And I find that really heartening. **Inmn ** 57:46 Yeah, it makes me really curious. And like, I want to try to learn more about this part of this specifically, but it's like what's going on in Palestine right now is I'm really curious about what people in neighboring regions are doing that are very similar to this kind of work right now and what people...and like what people...hearing about people in Israel who are like...who are like getting indicted with pretty scary criminal charges simply for like, speaking out against what Israel is doing right now? I don't know. **Sophie ** 58:34 Yeah, it's so important. **Inmn ** 58:39 But as a kind of unfortunate segue, so like, you know, the community is really holding it down for trying to help people who are experiencing being lost and scattered in the desert. But Border Patrol is doing the opposite of that. Could y'all talk a little bit about, I guess, the third installment of the report? **Parker ** 59:04 Yeah, the third installment is called "Left to Die," and it focuses on search and rescue. And so this is another report that came out of our experiences with the missing migrant crisis line and providing search and rescue but also out of Border Patrol's sort of propaganda, styling themselves as humanitarian and putting out a ton of PR about their search and rescue. You know, they hold these PR events every year where they show, you know, their fancy helicopter tricks. And they put out these statistics about how many people they rescue every year with no sort of explanation of what that means. Meanwhile, as they were doing that, you know, our personal experience and the experience of people with Derechos Humanos' missing migrant crisis line and with No More Deaths was complete inaction when they would try and request a search and rescue from Border Patrol. So when someone does call the missing migrant crisis line, a family member or someone who's lost, we want whatever resources possible. That's almost always what the family is asking, is for whatever resources possible to go to try and rescue their loved one. And so we would call Border Patrol. And a lot of the time, we would get no response, a refusal to respond to go in search for someone, or, you know, these really vague, just sort of like, "Yeah, we'll look into it," and then they never call back. So we were experiencing a lot of inaction in response to requests for search and rescue from Border Patrol. And we wanted to document that with this report. So the report draws primarily from the case notes, from emergency cases received by the Derechos Hunmanos missing migrant migrant crisis line. So there were I think 456 calls that were classified in a two year period as emergency cases. So these are cases where the person had been heard from within the last three days, there was some information about their location, and there is a possibility that they were still alive in the desert and in need of rescue. So in contrast to a bunch of other calls that were received from the Derechos crisis line where someone was known to be in detention, but they were missing a detention, or it had been months since they disappeared, these were the cases that were potential search and rescue. **Sophie ** 1:01:19 So like Parker, said these are cases in which the family or the person was requesting a Border Patrol response or consented to us advocating or organizations advocating for a Border Patrol response. And we'll talk a little bit more about why Border Patrol for these cases. But we looked at the outcomes and Border Patrols is kind of a notoriously opaque organization. There's so little public reporting or transparency about what they do. So like Parker mentioned, they'd publish these rescue statistics but with no information about the cases from which they were deriving them. And we looked at, you know, press releases where the headline was, "Border Patrol Rescues Man," and then you read the article and it's about them chasing someone into a pond where they almost die and then the agents pull them out of the pond, right? **Parker ** 1:02:20 And then arrest them and deport them. **Sophie ** 1:02:21 So this really kind of farcical phrasing of "apprehension as rescue." So there really wasn't data to challenge that with. So that's part of why we really wanted to look at this data set. And we found when we looked at those 456 cases that 63% of the time, so two thirds of those cases, where Border Patrol was pressed to respond to a person in immediate distress, we had no confirmation that they took any measure to mobilize a search or rescue in response to them. So nothing. No confirmation of any action being taken in two thirds of the time, in hundreds of cases, right? And then in the 37% of cases in which there was indication that Border Patrol took some action to prevent loss of life, we found that their responses just severely, severely diminished when compared against the measures that Pima County Sheriff's Department search and rescue would take if they were coming to save my life, right, if I was lost in the same area. So in particular, we saw Border Patrol, when they did deploy to search for a person who was lost in the desert and in distress, we found that the duration of those efforts and the resourcing was just really diminished when compared to the measures taken to search for a citizen or a foreign tourist. So a lot of those searches lasted less than a day and we had some that lasted less than an hour without locating the person. And then just lack of resources. Like a lot of those deployments were simply a helicopter flyover. When you look in the newspaper at the case of a missing hiker, right, a citizen hiker, you'll see that those searches will take two weeks and that the search effort and area and resources will expand with each day that the person is not found, right? More and more resources are added because it's more and more urgent. Instead we see that if the person isn't pretty quickly located in the 1/3 of the time that Border Patrol deploys at all, they will call off the search. And so as a consequence of that, we found that out of these 456 cases that a quarter of the time, the person in distress was never located. So that's not a quarter of the time that they died, that's a quarter of the time that they disappeared, right? So the person was never located one in four cases and yet the search was called off. And we can see that's just absolutely an indication of deadly discrimination that, you know, if that...those are not the numbers that citizens see. And I think this was really important in combining these observations with that first report "Chase & Scatter," to really put together a full picture in which we found that looking at the kind of critical role that Border Patrol is playing in putting people into a life or death situation by chasing them and scattering them in the wilderness compared with the frequency with which they would deploy, to search for and rescue or distressed person, we were able to say that Border Patrol is two times more likely to take part in causing a person to go into distress, causing an emergency, than they are in participating and attempting to rescue them. So really, they're just always responding to these emergencies of their own making and they're much more heavily focused on their enforcement priority, right, in putting people in harm's way as a matter of policy. **Parker ** 1:06:06 Yeah, it really is this sort of twisted rebranding of Prevention Through Deterrence and the fact that people are being pushed into danger. It's like, you know, someone at Border Patrol's office was like, "I know, we can call these rescues now," because everybody who's crossing through the borders is facing a huge threat to their life. They're in wilderness areas. They're lost. They're in distress. And then because of that, Border Patrol can rebrand any arrest of somebody as a "rescue" by saying, "Yeah, we arrested this person, you know, who was like, lost, and therefore, we rescued them." **Sophie ** 1:06:42 And then use that number to somehow offset the death statistics, which is incredible to me to publish these numbers, you know, Border Patrol saying, okay, there were 300 human remains recovered this year, but allegedly, they rescued 700 people, as if there's something legitimate about, you know? That death statistic needs to be zero, right? It's sort of trumpeting, it's own death statistics, you know, in a way as a way to them comparatively have their rescue seem even more significant. And it makes you sort of forget that that statistic should be zero and that those numbers are, you know, again, hugely partial, because so many people are disappearing and never ever recovered. The other part that the report looked at was what happens when the County doesn't deploy a search and rescue like they would for a person with citizenship status or a tourist, which we'll talk about more, Border Patrol doesn't deploy, and someone is in distress. Their family knows about it. They received a distress call, right, from their child, their brother, their loved one who's crossing and we found that really often, families and communities will mobilize and improvise search on their own based on the information that they have from the person who's calling them. So we were really interested in what happens when families and communities mobilize, sometimes with the partnership of community search and rescue organizations, sometimes on their own, and Border Patrol's reaction. So another kind of focus of part three was looking at systematic Border Patrol, obstruction and interference with family and community-based search and rescues when all systems kind of failed them and found that a quarter of the time, 25% of the time, that communities and families deploy to search for their loved ones Border Patrol obstructs those efforts in some way. So we tracked a number of those issues, like refusal to share critical information that Border Patrol might have about the person's point-last-seen, denying access to eyewitnesses who might be in custody, harassing families and volunteers on the ground. So a number of really serious kinds of obstructions to anyone being able to access a search area and have adequate information. Often Border Patrol will have coordinates of where they attempted to apprehend a group and people were scattered and the person you're looking for was scattered by the apprehension attempt and needs those coordinates to go to the point that they are last seen to start the search, right? And Border Patrol refusing to share information and even cases in which Border Patrol is sharing false information with families and communities. So again, we see this as another measure that's meant to just increase the number of people who are dying and disappearing in an attempt to cross through the borderlands. **Parker ** 1:09:50 Yeah, and within that, I think one thing that we really tried to highlight in this report too, is the bureaucratic runaround that families and volunteers are met with trying to report an emergency. So like a lot of people have probably, you know, had the experience of trying to call Verizon and getting bounced around between different voicemails but that'll happen in these moments where there is a life threatening emergency that someone is trying to report. And there's no functional system. It'll happen between, you know, a county run 911 and Border Patrol where the county is saying, you know, "That's not our job, it's Border Patrol's job," and then Border Patrol will be saying, "Well, no, you have to call 911." It'll happen within Border Patrol agencies where you call one number and you're told you have to call this other number and then you get transferred to the other number. And it's, you know, a non-working number. Border Patrol will say you have to call the consulate. The consulate will say you have to call Border Patrol or the consulate's closed on the weekend. So it's a completely non-functioning emergency response system. And I think we just want to capture that and the experience that, you know, families will go through just spending like hours and hours just trying to even get someone on the phone who they can report the emergency to. And then, you know, half the time you do that and you don't even get a call back. So it's just a really infuriating system. **Sophie ** 1:11:05 Yeah, and just to add on to that as well, we have a lot of cases where Border Patrol refuses to deploy, saying there's not enough information to search and then families and/or humanitarian organizations will deploy their own search and immediately locate the person, right? So some of those efforts also reveal that even minimal effort is so significant in preventing loss of life in these cases, and yet we see agents, you know, Border Patrol, really reluctant or refusing to deploy at all. **Inmn ** 1:11:38 Thanks so much for listening everyone. This interview was unexpectedly much larger than we thought it was going to be and we're kind of just cutting in the middle of it. And we'll continue the interview next week. So tune in next week, for now that we've finally laid a lot of groundwork for what the new "Disappeared" report is about and then we can actually now talk about the new report. And yeah, it's going to be, you know, "fun" isn't the right word, but it's going to be an interesting finish to the conversation. So if you enjoyed hearing about border militarization and the other reports then tune in next week to finish the conversation. And I'm just rambling now, because I didn't write a script. And it turns out I do really well with scripts. But we will see you next time. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go do border work, go do humanitarian aid work, find ways to plug into these networks wherever you live because I'm sure they exist and because, unfortunately, the border is everywhere. And there's.... Which you know, is horrible. And it also means that wherever you are, there's something, there's some way for you to plug in to deal with it, or whatever. You could also, if you liked this podcast, rate and review and like and subscribe, or whatever the nameless algorithm calls for. Feed it like a hungry god. But if you want to support us in other sillier ways that don't involve feeding a nameless and mysterious entity then consider subscribing to our Patreon. You can find us at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And if you sign up at the $10 a month level, then we will mail to you a zine version of our monthly feature every month. It's called the Zine of the Month Club. It's really fun. And you get a nice little letter from us every month. I think it's delightful. And you can also support us by supporting our publisher, Strangers, in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers publishes books, zines, comics, podcasts, obviously, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And we have some exciting stuff coming out this year and next year. And in particular, we would like to thank these Pa

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Eleanor Goldfield comes on to talk about her film, "To the Trees," a documentary that highlights forest defense tactics in Northern California. The film is meant to call into question our current relationships to nature, how we might reframe them, and why that reframing is vital to our survival and having a livable future. Guest Info Eleanor Goldfield (she/her) is a filmmaker and journalist who works to highlight different movement and struggles. You can find her work and her film "To the Trees" at tothetreesfilm.com and artkillingapathy.com. Eleanor can also be found on Twitter @RadicalEleanor and Instagram @RadicalEleanor Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Eleanor on "To the Trees" & Forest Defense **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Inmn Neruin, and I use they/them pronouns. Today we are talking to a filmmaker about a really beautiful film called To the Trees. And I'm really excited for you all to hear this conversation. We're going to talk a lot about logging and forest defense and just kind of like the extraction industry in general, and then just about some, you know, cultural or psychological paradigms that we have around resource extraction. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here is a jingle from another show on that network.  **Inmn ** 01:40 And we're back. Hi, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and a little bit about your background, and what you're here to talk about today?  **Eleanor ** 01:55 Sure, thanks so much for having me. My name is Eleanor Goldfield. She/her. I'm a queer creative, radical filmmaker, and journalist. And I've been doing frontline--I hesitate to say activism--I've been doing frontline actions and journalism since 2010 together. And before that I'd been doing organizing and community organizing since about 2003, before the second Iraq War. And I'm here today to talk about my latest offering in the film domain, which is called, "To the Trees," and it's about forest defense tactics in so-called Northern California and also about our relationship to nature and the necessary shift that that must take for us to have a livable future. **Inmn ** 02:50 Cool, um--I mean, not cool that a film like this needs to get made but cool that a film like this now exists and can teach people a lot of really awesome things. I highly encourage everyone to go out and watch the movie. It's really wonderful. It's really beautiful. But could you kind of give us just like a recap of the movie. **Eleanor ** 03:17 Sure. Yeah, and the films available at ToTheTreesfilm.com. And all of my work is also available at ArtKillingApathy.com. So kind of a general overview of the film is that I went out there to do.... This is kind of how I work. I ask folks if they need any support--and I'm ground support, by the way, because I don't do heights. Although, I did climb a redwood when I was out there, which was a terrifying experience. And I'm never doing it again. **Inmn ** 03:49 They're so big,  **Eleanor ** 03:51 They're ginormous. And that was my first...that was the first tree I decided to climb because...yeah, whatever. And it took me 45 minutes. And it's 200 feet up in the air, and I was terrified. And it took me like 15 minutes to get up the courage just to step off the platform. And the tree sitter, they were like, "You just step up," and I'm like, "What do you just step up? I'm gonna die," and they're like, "No, you're not. You're gonna be fine. I swear" and I'm like, "Oh God, this is so terrifying." And they're like, "Yeah, maybe you are ground support." **Inmn ** 04:20 Ground support is crucial. **Eleanor ** 04:23 It is crucial. Yes. And it's very much.... That's very much me. I was built to like just be grounded, I think. So I went out there basically saying, "I would love to help you all and do support and also, if it's cool with you, I'll bring a camera and I'd love to just hear some of your stories." And so folks were cool with that. And so there I go, traipsing into the woods. And it's a beautiful tree village. And the redwood forests, if folks have never seen them, I mean it's like Narnia. You know the forest floor is Like this plush, you know, soft and welcoming space. And then you look up and it's like the trees are so tall that you can barely see the crowns. It's just kind of like this green haze above you. And so I just started talking to folks and talked to a couple of tree sitters. I also spoke with somebody who does more of the judicial side of things, like trying to get forest...or like logging companies in court and how that kind of works with tree sitters. And then I also spoke to an indigenous woman, Marnie Atkins, who is a member of the Wiyot tribe, spoke to her a lot about perspectives on what's going on in these forests and the paradigms that are different between her people and the colonizers who came. And so it's kind of a.... [trails off] I call it at the end, I have this, I have this slide that says, "To the trees: It's a dedication, a call to action, a promise, and a militant apology." And I wanted folks to feel that, that it's an offering and it's also an invitation, not just to act in whatever ways we can but also to question the way that we think about these beautiful places, whether they be the redwood forests or whether they be the the ecosystems that are outside your front door. **Inmn ** 06:42 Yeah, yeah. And it's.... I feel funny that this is one of my first questions, but it was one of the pieces of the film that kind of really got me--it's like always knowing that Capitalism uses things for really silly things--but learning that the main use of redwood trees is to just turn them into kind of crappy decks. Is that right? **Eleanor ** 07:12 Yeah, yeah, it's based on market forces. The best use of a redwood tree is decking. And not only that, but redwoods can be 2000 years old. And of course, if you were to chop down a 2000 year old tree--which by the way, there's no law against it in California or anywhere else in the in the United States--if you were to do that, yes, that deck would last a while--it wouldn't last 2000 years--it would last a while. But the way that they cut down trees at the rate--because of course, no one's gonna wait 2000 years--they cut down these trees in their infancy. So the strong heartwood of the tree has not had a chance to develop. And so you're cutting down these trees, you know, destroying any future that they might have to rebuild an ecosystem, and you're turning them into a deck that is not even going to last like a decade because it's just not made of wood that has had a chance to mature. And so you're literally destroying burgeoning ecosystems for the sake of a deck that is going to last less than, you know, the length of a Britney Spears' single. It's just...it's ridiculous. **Inmn ** 08:35 Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's one of the harder things that I struggle with when really thinking about industrial Capitalism is just the...it's like the cost of what it...like what it costs to do to the planet versus what is gotten from that. And it's not even like, oh, you're gonna get something that's like, "We cut down this tree and it's gonna last this family multi-generations," you know, it's like a piece of shit that's gonna rot and fall apart in a decade.  **Eleanor ** 09:12 And that's the whole, you know, that's one of the primary issues with Capitalism is that it treats things that are finite, like trees and clean air and clean water, as if they're infinite. And it treats things that are infinite, like ones and zeros on a computer, as if they're finite. Like, "Oh, we don't have the money." And, I mean, it's like--I can't remember who it was-- maybe it was Alan Watts, who said, "That's kind of like saying, 'You don't have enough inches to build a house.'" Like that doesn't make any sense. Like of course you have more money because you just make it up. It's all a fairy tale. Whereas the things that we can't just make up like a 2000 year old tree or a clean river, you treat as entirely disposable, and that is one of the primary issues with the paradigm of Capitalism and thereby colonialism, which was the battering ram of Capitalism. **Inmn ** 10:08 Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what are the life cycles or growth cycles or logging cycles like in places that are being [testing words] harvested? Destroyed? Whichever word.  **Eleanor ** 10:34 Yeah, that's that euphemism, right? "Oh, we're just harvesting." No! So, basically, there are several different cycles that can be used. I think one of the shortest ones for redwoods is 45 or 50 years. So if you clear-cut and then you--and redwoods are actually one of the few trees that can sprout, like from a stump. Like it's self...I can't remember what it's called. Self-sprouting or something? And so you have to wait 45 or 50 years. Now, whether they always do that or not, is up for debate, especially depending on what they're hoping to get from the products. But it's 45 or 50 years. Some will say, "Oh, we're gonna leave this plot for 100 years," or whatever. And again, whether that's done or not, is up for debate. And it's also difficult because industrial logging has only been around since like, you know, 120 years or so. So when we talk about the amount of time you really need to grow these forests, it's like we're going back to a time before this was even a conversation because you couldn't possibly tear down the forests that quickly. And so we're in this kind of odd liminal space where people are talking about, "Oh, we're gonna have to let this grow again for 100 years," but 100 years ago this wasn't even a contemplation. And so the cycles are based on, again, like the market forces. LIke, okay, well, at 45 or 50 years these trees will be ready to be harvested and then can be used to do whatever we want with them, you know? Truck them off to the sawmill. And that, again, is it.... Well, I could go off into so many different tangents, but I'll pause. **Inmn ** 12:36 I do.... We love tangents. We love rants. So this wasn't surprising to me, but I've spent like a little bit of time in the coal fields of West Virginia, and it seems like there's this kind of similar thing in logging where there's a strong guidance to preserve the cardboard frame of what things look like from a road or something, you know, so it's like the devastation appears a lot less impactful. I am curious what kind of lengths or strategies logging companies go to--or the State goes to--to make it seem like nothing all that bad is happening? **Eleanor ** 13:25 Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you brought up West Virginia because my first documentary was actually about West Virginia. And I talked a lot about the coal fields. And I actually did a flight above them because you can't--I mean, to your point--you can't see it from the roads. And you can really only see the vast devastation if you're up in a plane. Or if you have a drone or something like that. So in California, they call it the 'visual impact' or commonly called 'the beauty screen.' And it's this idea that, particularly Inmnorthern California--because Northern California, unlike West Virginia, which is very proud of its coal, Northern California doesn't want you to think it's proud of logging--it wants you to think that it's super proud of the trees, which is really twisted. **Inmn ** 14:21 Yeah. Yeah. **Eleanor ** 14:22 It's like being a serial killer and then being like, "I have a human rights organization." So they will.... Right before you get to a lot of these THPs, that's timber harvest plans, you're driving through, for instance, the Avenue of the Giants, which is part of a redwood forest, Redwood National Forest, and it's gorgeous, right? And you would never think that just a few miles up in the hills there are these vast bald spots. And so they want to ensure that that stays the case, right? So you just keep driving and you keep driving up the one on one and you just see trees and then the Pacific Ocean is over here and you're like, "Oh my god, California is amazing!"  **Inmn ** 15:06 "We love trees!" **Eleanor ** 15:07 Right. But it's being destroyed. And you can't see that. And it's very important that you can't see that because the companies that own this land--because most of it is privately owned logging land--and the companies have this like...one of the guys in the film says, "This eco groovy PR campaign and this facade." And they want you to think that everything is done respectfully and sustainably when, of course, you can't clear-cut sustainably. So they want to make sure that you can't see it because that would fly in the face of their 'eco groovy facade.' And part of that is also that they have a certification, which is called FSC, Forest Stewardship Council certification. Which if you've ever been to a Home Depot or Lowe's, oftentimes FSC wood will be more expensive because the idea is that it's sustainable. And so you get to feel good about yourself, you know, like, "Oh, sweet, this isn't from a clear-cut," but it is. And the Forest Stewardship Council, even if it started with honorable aims, is a complete...it's just a rubber stamp for the logging industry. And there's been a long list of horribleness, including stealing indigenous land, clear-cutting old growth forests, and you know, and yet they have that little FSC stamp. So people think, consumers think, that this is done sustainably. But of course, it's not. And so this is all part of that greenwashing campaign, whether it be the 'beauty screen' or the FSC stamp, it's all part of that push to ensure that the consumer remains in the dark and thinks that, particularly, Northern California is sustainably harvesting their, in quotes, 'harvesting' these trees and ensuring that they will be around forever. **Inmn ** 17:09 Golly, yeah. And I imagine people also...like the consumer on the end of like...they, you know, they go into Home Depot, or they're hiring a contractor to build their crappy deck, I'm sure they're really ecstatic that they have this...are getting this redwood deck. Like, I feel like it's just the name, you know, "Redwood," it sounds so majestic. It sounds so like, "Wow, this is gonna last me a really long time."  Is that kind of like part of it too, do you think?  **Eleanor ** 17:44 Yeah, I think it sounds.... You know, I was in bands for years, and people used to talk about the wood that went into their instruments like, "Oh, it's mahogany neck." and someone's like, "Oh! It's a mahogany neck." **Inmn ** 17:57 It's an electric guitar...like it doesn't matter. **Eleanor ** 18:01 And sure, I mean,as a former audio tech, I can be like, okay, I've heard the difference in acoustic guitars where you're like, "Okay. That. Yes." But it is also pretty.... I mean, mahogany is not endangered in that sense. But still, it's pretty twisted to be like, "Yeah, the best way to use this tree is to turn it into an instrument or a deck or whatever. It's that like, again, in Capitalism, nothing has inherent value in and of itself. Nobody's like, "Oh, wow, an oak tree! That's super cool!" Everyone's like, "Hmm, what can I do with that?" It's like, maybe you could just leave it the fuck alone. I don't know, Maybe that could be a thing? But nothing in Capitalism has inherent value in and of itself. So it always has to be twisted and contorted into something. And that carries with it a certain status, right? Like, oh, if you have this deck made out of redwood or if you have that guitar made out of mahogany, it becomes a status symbol. And so that is also part of like the poisoning that is Capitalism, psychologically, I feel.  **Inmn ** 19:06 Golly, I wish--I know, this is a recurring theme on the show--but if only our lives were more like those of hobbits. I mean, they just have a Party Tree, and that's a community resource. And they're like, "We need a party tree. It needs to be like 3000 years old and that's a party tree." If it's not 3000 years old. It's not a Party Tree. Or, yeah, the forest on the edge of town that everyone's like too afraid to go into. **Eleanor ** 19:40 Yeah, well, and this is actually something that I think is funny, too, that we have so many stories, whether that be through, you know, Lord of the Rings, or like when I was growing up, I partially grew up in Sweden, and there's so many stories still today about the Forest and its power. And I feel like that's also an interesting relationship that we have with the forest is that we are a little bit afraid of it. And that also...that also pushes us into this relationship where, okay, well, I'm gonna conquer my fears, right? As opposed to the stories--and there are these stories even in European cultures--that talk about the beauty of the forest and what the forest gives us. But that's also an interesting dynamic between a lot of Indigenous stories that I've heard where, yes, there might be like some being that lives in the forest that you don't want to interact with. But a lot of it is also about how, "Oh my gosh, look at all of the beauty and the life that we get from the forest," as opposed to, "Woods are terrifying. Don't mess with them at all. Just don't go there." It's like, but that's also going to dictate how you feel about cutting down a bunch of trees. **Inmn ** 21:04 Yeah, it's wild that fear of the forest means we have to destroy the forest. It's a bad mentality. As much as I love a story about the Dark Forest, you know, and wish that that was like a more sustainable option, growing a more deep connection to the forest is probably a more sustainable way to go about things. Did you ever see Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind?  **Eleanor ** 21:33 Yes, I did.   **Inmn ** 21:34 Yeah. Incredible movie about a toxic forest that will fucking kill everyone who comes into it. Because it eventually was like, "No humans. You can't. No, I can't take anymore. Here's poison." **Eleanor ** 21:50 Don't blame it really.  **Inmn ** 21:52 Yeah, and it's like, "No, I need several thousand years to recuperate from the harm that you've done and eventually I'll be a forest you can come in again." **Eleanor ** 22:04 Right. Right. Well, and I think... We talk about that in mutual aid spaces, or in organizing spaces, like, okay, if harm has been caused and there needs to be time to recover then possibly we can get to the point where we can be in community together with that person who did the harm.... It's like, we do that as humans. And it's necessary, right? And that is exactly what ecosystems need too. Like, the idea of--this is also how we fuck it up in terms of the Capitalist mentality--the idea of like, "Oh, we're going to leave that to grow for another 45 years before we cut it down again," that's not allowing a relationship to recuperate, right? That is, once again, treating something in that violent way, like the violence of ownership versus stewardship, right? Like, ownership is a violent relationship--I mean, just look at slavery--but stewardship suggests a respect. And I think there's also space for fear there, too, right? I think that, you know, when I was a kid walking through woods, I would feel a little...maybe a little scared, but I would also feel safe, like, "Oh, I'm safe within the woods." So I think we can carry both of those at once. And I think that sometimes when you have a deep respect for something, there might be a moment where you're like, "Oh, that's, that's creepy." But there's also this feeling of like, "I'm safe here." And I think that, you know, I think that carrying multiple truths at the same time and multiple thoughts is just beneficial. But yeah, I think that the idea of allowing places to recover is super important, while also recognizing that we have a role in that. And that's something that Marnie talks about in--and actually one of the tree sitters as well--talks about in the film is this idea that the relationship we need to have with nature is not removing ourselves from nature. And I always think of...I spoke with somebody who does work in Africa with the Maasai, and she was saying that the Maasai were removed from their ancestral lands in order to create a conservation park. But what happened with the ecosystem when they were removed is the ecosystem started to fall apart, because the Maasai were an integral--and had been for 1000s of years--an integral part of that ecosystem. And so it belies that notion that we are somehow outside of ecosystems. No, we are super reliant on them. And I think that kind of that kind of thinking is also super important to remember that like, you know, Indigenous peoples have used, for instance, wildfires, as a way to steward the land, because they're not the wildfires that we see today. They were wildfires that were able to replenish the soil and the land, get rid of invasives, and things like that. So the idea that humans are a part of these ecosystems, and that we have to learn those ways of being and rid ourselves of the notion that we can somehow be outside of, and other than, the ecosystems. **Inmn ** 25:29 I mean, it's like, it's.... I feel like, it's the same thing with most struggles out in the world is we have the tendency to want to remove ourselves from those things. And it is usually detrimental to those causes for us to think of ourselves as outside of everything--which, you know, obviously, there's struggles that we should send our specific voices around and that we should...like certain people should like not make about themselves--but like, for the most part, we are entrenched in all of in all of the thing. And we have to be an active part of them to fix them. **Eleanor ** 26:13 Totally. And I think that, you know, the idea of like, we should always be a part of these struggles, and not make them about ourselves, right, like the struggle to defend redwoods is not about us. It's just that in our own space, we can have these conversations about what it means for us humans to be in the struggle, just like I think, you know, right now, I've been in conversation with several fellow Jews about what's going on right now and what what we're dealing with as Jews. That is not something that I want to put out into the world like up on, you know, I don't want to spend a lot of time on it because it takes the focus away from Palestine. But within our Jewish community, I think it's an important conversation to have. So it's like...It's that...It's that way of being in the struggle. And then if you--just like I think white people need to have conversations with each other about what it means to...like what does Black Lives Matter really mean? And what does dismantling racism really mean? Don't do that at a Black Lives Matter protest, okay. That is not the time, but in our own space and time. So I think, again, you can hold both of those, and I think it's important to.  **Inmn ** 27:29 Yeah, golly, to go tangent for a second on that, like, I don't know, I read this article yesterday, I think, about this.... It was an interview with this Palestinian man who was talking about being asked about antisemitism and like his response to it was like, Israel is.... Israel as a State. Israel displaced Jews living as Arabs in Palestine. Like, Israel is bad for Jewishness and Jewish people.  **Eleanor ** 28:15 Yes, thank you.  **Inmn ** 28:16 And this is like all part of this, like colonizing myth, and any colonizing myth, is to create these others to create a "side," or whatever. I don't know. **Eleanor ** 28:29 Yeah, that's so true. Israel is the greatest threat to Jews in the world right now, I think. **Inmn ** 28:37 Um, too.... Not that I don't want to talk about this stuff more but to veer back towards the movie, I am curious about the collaboration between different...like attacking the problem from different angles. And in the movie, there's kind of this triple-pronged approach that is presented as there's people on the ground doing stuff in the trees, there's people doing legal work, there's indigenous people doing stewardship, and then there's people coming in to make movies about it. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how, like, all of these things interact and like help each other. **Eleanor ** 29:32 Sure. So, it was actually Tom Wheeler, who works at Epic in California, who said that we exist in an ecosystem with each other, which I liked. And he was talking about how--and he works on the legal side--and he was talking about why the tree sitters are important. And I really appreciated that because I think a lot of times we get, you know, the classic saying that like, "When anarchists meet, we meet in a circle. And that's also how I do firing ranges." And unfortunately, like it's true--not just with anarchists, it's just that my anarchist friend happened to say that. I think it's everybody on the left, regardless of what...if you have a title for your preferred angle. But I think it so often is the case that it's like, "No, my tactic is the most important. If you don't want to do my tactic then you're wrong and you're an asshole and you're standing in the way," and it's like, but not everybody can do the thing that you're doing. Like, I can't climb--I mean, I can climb a tree, but I won't, there's like, you know, the floor is lava or some shit--and not a lot of people have the ability to get up into the woods, to take that space and time. And a lot of people don't have the expertise to do legal battles. You know, we need a lot of good lawyers out there. I think the Lakota Law Project taught us that. Look what's happening in Atlanta. Like. you need good lawyers. So I think instead of getting on people's cases, about tactics, I think it's really important that we recognize that whatever your passion is, whatever your expertise or your drive is, there is a place and a need for that in our movements and in whatever struggle. And so I really appreciated that about the folks that I spoke with, is that they all were complementary and understanding of the other people in the struggle and understood that the goal was the same, was to protect these spaces and protect them out of this feeling of love for these spaces. And I think that's the other thing that's really important is that nobody was doing this for the, you know, the Instagram likes or because they thought it...because it paid the most money or because anything like...they were literally like, "Because I love these spaces," either because I have a strong ancestral connection to them or because I've just fallen in love with them from being around them. And so I think that that's the other thing and that this diversity of tactics is necessary when confronting something so vast and so disgusting as colonialism and Capitalism. We have to do whatever we can. And these folks are doing whatever they can. And Pat, one of the tree sitters, actually talks about this too in the film, like, sit wherever you can, do whatever you can in the ecosystem that you know, in the ecosystem that you love. Like, it doesn't have to be in a redwood. Cool if it is, but we don't have to choose the most superlative ecosystem or the most superlative place to do this. All ecosystems are worthy and Inmneed of our collaboration and protection. And again, in whatever ways we can. **Inmn ** 32:57 Yeah, yeah. It's really disheartening to watch spaces kind of rip themselves apart in being upset that everyone is not doing the tactic that they want. And that is something that I've always really appreciated about, especially, forest defense campaigns or like other kinds of extraction industry defenses--I can't think of words right now--is just the recognition that we need a lot of different kinds of people to do this work. And, you know, I feel like maybe part of that is people maybe having gone and done things and then gotten in a lot of legal trouble and being like, "Oh, fuck, we need lawyers," and then like, realizing like, "Oh, lawyers are really cool!" But, yeah, that's something I just really appreciate about those campaigns. Um, yeah, I don't know, maybe this is a funny question. Say I'm some random person--or not random--just I'm a person listening to this podcast who's been like curious about forest defense and doesn't really know where to start or how to get into that. Like, I want to.... I've never done forest defense and I want to go get involved in a forest defense campaign, either one that's near me or one that's, maybe, far away. Do you have any advice for someone like that? **Eleanor ** 34:48 Sure. I mean, I think just start digging into folks who have the knowledge that you're interested in. So like Inmnorthern California, there's the tree sitters union, I think they're on Instagram @thetreesittersunion. There's also, like down around where I am, close to Appalachia, there's Appalachians Against Pipelines. Greenpeace does a lot of like trainings, like climbing trainings and things like that. And those are also spaces where you might be able to meet folks that are like minded. But honestly, like in terms of getting started on a campaign, like.... You know, in the film, again, they just say, just, you know, I" walked up...we walked up and we saw that there was a chainsaw at the bottom of this tree And were like, 'Oh, I guess we'll sit in this tree.'" I think people feel like there has to be this, you know, there has to be the war room where you got all the plans and you got the poster board and you got paper clips and all that. But you don't! Like yes, plan is good so you have water and shit, but it doesn't have to be this really elaborate. campaign to start with. And earlier this year, I was in Germany because I was doing a tour of my film about West Virginia coal in the coal regions of Germany. And I went to this tree village that is absolutely gorgeous. And folks were still living there, even though the campaign had kind of moved on, and I was asking them, like, "Okay, so what's the story here?" And it was the same thing. It was like, "Well, we just didn't want them to cut down this forest." I mean, it really is that simple. Like, I think, again, there is this...there's kind of this mystique to the idea of frontline defense. And, yes, it can build to something where you've got several tree villages or you have, you know, a resistance camp blocking a pipeline that's also like a food forest. Like, sure it can become that. But you don't need to start with that. You just need to start with yourself and some comrades, and this, again, this feeling of love for this place that is threatened. And again, like looking for organizations or like minded folks--and the ones that I mentioned are good places to start--but there are definitely others that I don't know of personally. **Inmn ** 37:14 Yeah. I'm having...I guess having witnessed campaigns in a lot of different places, I'm curious about this. Are there any kind of differences that you noticed between forest defense campaigns here in the United States, or like Turtle Island, versus in Europe, or any kind of like other places that you've been? Either in terms of repression, tactics, or just like how people organize? **Eleanor ** 37:52 So, I'd say in terms of the repression tactics, I mean, people in Europe--I can only speak to, currently, Germany and Sweden--but people were very shocked and disgusted at what happened to Tortuguita and what happened down in Atlanta in terms of facing terrorism charges and Rico charges. But there is also, I mean, in Germany, earlier this year, the cops brutally beat people who were trying to save a small town, Lützerath, from being destroyed for an open coal pit mine. So in terms of the direct pushback, the violence, they're not getting shot, but they are getting the shit beat out of them. And so there's absolutely that understanding that, you know, fascism is on the rise across the globe. And neither Europe nor the United States have to look very far in their history, or their present really,to find ways of emulating the fascist state that they are moving towards. And so, in terms of repression, I think it's mostly like the legal battles that are the main difference between the US and Europe. And I think in terms of organizing, I do see a lot of similarities, basically, because it's the same story. It's people who were like, "Actually, you know what, no, you can't fucking do that. I'm not gonna let you ruin this." And I do find a little bit of the same problems in terms of organizing. Like, for instance, Inmnorthern Sweden--which a lot of people don't know that Sweden, Finland, and Norway have indigenous peoples that were then colonized--so the Sami are the indigenous people of the far-north and their ancestral lands blanket across what is now Norway, Finland, Sweden, and parts of Russia. And that's also where a lot of forests are. And it's up in the Arctic Circle. And there's a lot of still culturally important practices, like reindeer herding, that happen there that are being disrupted by deforestation and mining. You know, like Sweden announced recently that, "Oh, we found lithium in the north." Oh, great!  **Inmn ** 40:24 Oh no. Leave it there! **Eleanor ** 40:26 Yeah, exactly. Don't tell Elon Musk. So, yeah, there's a push to protect these spaces but also this difficulty of like, okay, how do we, as non-indigenous people in Sweden make these inroads. And the Sami are historically very reticent of working with Swedes--I don't blame them--or Norwegians or what have you, because of what's happened in the past. And I noticed that here, too, right. It's difficult sometimes for people who are not indigenous to make those connections in indigenous communities. And so I see a lot of that struggle as well. But at the same time, again, when you are coming at it from this place of, "Well, I too want to protect this out of love. And not because I'm looking for some kind of accolade or whatever," that I think that you can make those connections and you can make that struggle collaborative, as long as you're coming at it from that space. And, so I do see that happening in places outside of the US and I think it's rad. **Inmn ** 41:43 Hell yeah. That's really great. Golly, this is a really weird question, but, you know, my brain's always on a tangent. Are there any forest defense influencers? Is this a thing in the internet and the internet world? I'm imagining the person who's just there for, you know, Instagram likes, or something, and I'm like, is that real? **Eleanor ** 42:10 So like, not like the straight up forest defenders, but there's definitely like the Sierra Club type that are like.... You know, so, again, it's like this kind of gray area--I'm a big fan of recognizing nuance--it's like this nuanced space where the person cares and doesn't want to see it destroyed but also wants to virtue signal to people that they care. And that gets all gummed up in the whole Capitalist shit show. So yeah, it's a gummy area. **Inmn ** 42:48 Yeah, and this is--golly, whatever, I love funny questions--so I'm curious about this from, you know, I've had my own experiences with different with different organizations, but is there any kind of  tension or like problems that you do see between on the ground direct action campaigns versus these larger NGO or like nonprofit structures like the Sierra Club or Greenpeace? Yeah, I don't know. I'm not asking for a shit post about these groups or anything, just some of the nuances or complications that can come up?  **Eleanor ** 43:38 Yeah, I mean, again, Capitalism fucks everything up. There were a couple of organizations that I reached out to when I was in California, and they were first happy to talk to me, but then when they realized that I was there supporting and speaking to tree sitters, who are, by definition, breaking the law, because it's private timber land, did not want to speak to me anymore. And I think that's very clearly--like whether they personally wanted to or not is not the point--but as an organization, I think they realized, "Oh, well, our donors are, I don't know, some rich asshole over here. And if we do that, if we engage with people who are very overtly breaking the law, then that's not good for our bottom line. And we need our bottom line in order to keep protecting the forest.: So in their mind, they were doing that so that they could continue to protect the forest. But of course, this creates that splintering that is so useful for the system. In reality, they should be working with the tree sitters. Like, you have the ability to work together to protect these spaces but because you have to make sure that you get the foundation money or these rich donors or whatever, you can't. And so I absolutely see that and I think that's also a global problem because a lot of this does cost money, you know? Like, rope is not cheap. Just making sure that people have supplies and food and things. Like shit costs money. And it's not like tree sitters get paid. So it is difficult, but I tend to--I shouldn't say...I don't want to be prejudiced ahead of time, but I've I find that I often am--be prejudiced against a big organization that says, "We are protecting the forest." It's like, are you? Or are you doing like forest walks and shit--which is cool--and like picking up trash. But that is not the same thing as standing between a chainsaw and a tree. And that's not to say that like, "I'm more radical than you." It's just a necessary context, I think, for understanding, again, this ecosystem that we're a part of. Like, we need more people to be the ones standing in between the trains on the tree. And I think we need fewer people being the ones, you know, typing up newsletters about this forest walk where you can plant a sapling or some shit, just in terms of what we need. That's what I would say. **Inmn ** 46:25 Yeah. Yeah, It's weird how similar the idea of an NGO or something being getting donors to lead a forest walk.... It's the trap of building an organization that gets too big and has too many dependencies on Capital to sustain itself. It's, yeah, it's.... I don't know. I think about this a lot with different projects that I've been a part of. Like I'm part of this community theater group and I'm like, we can't get too big or it's gonna cause huge problems. We can't be too successful or else it all falls apart. Yeah, I think that would be my biggest thing with some larger NGOs is it's cool if y'all's thing is like bringing in money, that's cool. But it seems like the real problem is an organization like that's inability to accept a diversity of tactics or donors to really look past--and maybe this is a shitpost--but the idea wealthy donors who want the experience of like donating to an environmental nonprofit and want that experience of like bringing their kids on the forest walk, this is the same thing as getting a like, quote, "heirloom redwood forest timber deck that is sustainably 'harvested'" Like it's the same thing. **Eleanor ** 48:15 Yeah, it is very twisted. And of course I think that's the problem is that there's no such thing as money without strings. And so when you have these big donors--and I know this from just other spaces that I've organized, even outside of the environment--okay, well, so-and-so is gonna give this much money, but then they also want us to build the website this way or they want us to make sure that the action looks like this. And it's like, but also these people don't know anything about organizing. So then their ideas are shit and you're like, "Look, the whole entire campaign is falling apart because you want this sign to say something completely stupid," and it happens all the time. And that's why, unfortunately, we as organizers have to have this balance of like, "Okay, we need this much money, but if we just get it from one or two donors, what do they want in return for all of this cash?" And there's always going to be something. They're not just going to be like, "Hey, really happy that we can support you in whatever you're doing," like, that's never the case. So yeah, it sucks. But yeah, until we can just, you know, pay rent in good deeds or something, that's gonna be the problem. **Inmn ** 49:35 Or like shift our cultural mindset beyond like...you know, if I'm a wealthy donor or something, then the important thing is that the people have the money and resources to do the work, not that I get anything in return from it.  I don't know, I feel like--and maybe this is my bias, having not traveled much outside of the States--is that we have this very individualistic mentality around everything, and that that extends to forest and extraction resource defense and like.... I don't know. **Eleanor ** 50:15 It is a.... And one of the people in the film Marni, a member of the Wiyot tribe, talks about this individualistic paradigm that has perpetuated, that we as children of Empire have, because it's been passed down to us. And even those of us who have been radicalized, I like to say that there's no way that you can ever be like 100% AntiCapitalist. Like it's a daily struggle, just like you have to be antiracist everyday and antifacist. Like, there is no like, "Got it! No, I'm done." So she talks about this like this--and you know, to go back to Lord of the Rings-- **Inmn ** 50:18 The real goal podcast, right? It's not. But... **Eleanor ** 50:27 It all has to do with Lord of the Rings. She likens it to Gollum. And if anybody listening has not read Lord of the Rings, first of all, please do so. But secondly, Gollum is not a character that you want to emulate. Like, that is not how you're supposed to read that. Like, oh, Gollum is cool? Like, he is literally driven to mental anguish and dismay and physical like breakdown because he's so obsessed with this one ring. And that is not a good thing, right? It's not something where you're like, "Yeah, Gollum!" and he loses like all his community. Like, he's just by himself. And yet, we have built an entire system on the paradigm of Gollum. Like be by yourself. Fuck community. Care only about the thing that you can own and that can thereby, of course, own you in return. It's so fucked up. And yet, that is like the foundation of Capitalism. And so of course, when we step into a forest...and is one of the lines that I have in my first film about West Virginia is "How can you look at a mountain and think 'mine.'" Which is, of course, a double entendre. Which, I'm a sucker for those. But it's like, that's what we do. We've been programmed into stepping into these beautiful spaces and thinking, "Oh, I wonder how much this would be worth if I destroyed it?" Like, what kind of fucked way is that to look.... And it happens, you know, I have a toddler and people will kind of laugh when I'm like, "We go outside and we hug trees together," and they'll laugh. And I'm like, "So that's kind of weird that you think it's funny in like a derogatory way, because wouldn't it be more fucked up if I had like a toddler axe, or some shit, and I was teaching him how to destroy these things? Like, why do we have this paradigm where it's weird to teach your kids to love nature but totally cool to give a five year old a hunting rifle or something. Like what in the hell? And I'm not saying that you shouldn't hunt. But we hunt for fun. Like we don't hunt because we need food. We hunt because it's fun. **Inmn ** 53:17 Or for the trophy. **Eleanor ** 53:20 Right, for the trophy, which you can say is the same with the redwood deck. It's a trophy. It's something to show off to people. You don't need it. Like you could, you could stack stones and have a deck. Like, you don't need the fucking redwoods. And she also made...Marni makes this point in the film too, like, of course, people have used wood for generations, to use  for firewood, to widdle sculptures, to build things. And she's like, "I totally get that, but you can't do it at this scale. You have to have this relationship with nature so that you only take what you need and make sure that there's enough for the next time," and you see this throughout indigenous cultures. You know, Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about it in "Braiding Sweetgrass," the idea that--and I don't remember if it was her tribe or another one that she's talking about--would go out and get fish, but then they wouldn't get all of the fish. They'd just get the ones that they needed, right? And they would know that there's all these fish 'getting away'--in the white perspective--but they're not 'getting away,' they are surviving so that you can go fishing next time. And so again, it's like this...it's a very short sighted paradigm that is totally individualistic and totally destructive, that doesn't.... And again, like Gollum is totally destroyed but he doesn't see it himself. It's only people on the outside that are like, "Oh, God, that guy's not doing well." And yet again, we don't, we don't see it from the inside. And so I think that's why it's so important to step outside of that programming and just see the logic or the illogic of these situations and allow ourselves to fall in love with nature and question why that sounds corny when we say it out loud. Like, why is it corny to fall in love with a tree or a river or what have you. I mean, like, that is actually really beautiful. And it is necessary if we are to get to the space where we can say, "Defend what you love." Because if you don't love something, you're less likely to defend it, right? Like, you know, of course, that's why parents always defend their children because you have this natural need, like you love your child so much, or your partner, or your friend, or what have you. You're less likely to defend a total stranger. It's just like a human thing, or an animal thing. And so if we don't love these places, these spaces, then we're less likely to be moved to defend them. **Inmn ** 56:01 Yeah. Golly, so don't be like Gollum. Don't hoard ultimate power and destruction. Be like a hobbit and enjoy the 3000 year old party tree because it's a beautiful tree.  **Eleanor ** 56:19 Amen.  **Inmn ** 56:23 Well, this seems like a great place to kind of tie it off, and because we're also almost at time, but do you have any final thoughts or questions that I didn't ask you that you wish I'd asked you? And then after that, anything that you want to plug? **Eleanor ** 56:43 Just, I mean, it was something that I included at the end of the film, my good friend Carla Bergman co-wrote a book "Joyful Militancy," which I also recommend to everyone. **Inmn ** 56:53 Oh, yeah. We had Carla on not too long ago. **Eleanor ** 56:57 I love Carla so much. So one of the things that they talk about in that book, Carla and Nick, is this idea of rigid radicalism and the need to be fluid but not flimsy. And I think that that's something that...that's another practice that I'm trying to get more into, because I think a lot of times when we have a stance or when we have a perspective, we can get stuck in it. And then, we can let it weigh us down. And I think it's really important, no matter what fight we're fighting, to be able to be fluid because it will allow us to confront the next struggle, the next shitstorm, the next fire, or whatever. But if we are too rigid, we will get caught up in the flood or the flames and be carried away. And so I think it's important to stay fluid but not flimsy. And yeah. **Inmn ** 57:59 Sick.  Are there any places that you can be found on the internet where you would like to be found or where your work can be found? I know you plugged stuff at the beginning but we'll throw stuff in the show notes. **Eleanor ** 58:14 All of my work is at artkillingapathy.com That's where my films are, my music, my poetry, and journalism. This specific film To the Trees is at tothetreesfilm.com and I am on Instagram and Twitter @RadicalEleanor. **Inmn ** 58:32 Wonderful. And are you working on anything? Got anything coming up soon that you're working on? **Eleanor ** 58:38 I think I'm going to work on some of the footage that I got in Germany as kind of like an addendum, or a compliment, to my first film about coal regions in West Virginia. I have footage from coal regions in Germany that I think I'm gonna put into something. **Inmn ** 58:58 Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show today. **Eleanor ** 59:01 Thanks so much for having me. **Inmn ** 59:08 If you enjoyed this episode, Defend the Party Tree. You can also tell people about the show. You can support the show financially by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And you can find us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. You can also go to tangledwilderness.org and check out some cool books that we have for sale, because we are a publisher. We put out books, we put out zines, we put out podcasts, obviously. And we're working on all kinds of really fun stuff. So, go check it out and get a cool book. We also do this zine of the month club where for like 10 bucks a month, you can get a zine version of our monthly feature mailed to you anywhere in the world. You can also listen to the feature for free on our other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, where we do interviews with the author And that's really it. We would like to have a special shout out to a few of our Patreon supporters. Thank you, Patoli, Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixster, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & Odell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, Theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Macaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much. And we will see everyone next time. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Elizabeth talks with Brooke about running a small scale farm, including what goes into feeding over 700 families year-round, the importance of community accessible farm space, how climate change continues to mess things up, and how taking care of the soil really matters. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Elizabeth on small scale farming **Brooke ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host Brooke Jackson. And today we're going to be talking with Elizabeth Miller, a farmer, about her work in having an organic farm and some really cool stuff that she does that's worth all of us learning how to do a bit of. But before we get into that, we'd like to give a shout out to another one of the podcasts on the Channel Zero Network. So here's a little jingle from one of our friends. Doo doo doo doo, doo doo. [Singing a simple melody] **Brooke ** 01:29 And we're back. So as I mentioned in the intro, I have with me today, Elizabeth Miller, a wonderful lady who owns a farm. And Elizabeth, I'll hand it off to you to tell us a little bit more about yourself. **Elizabeth ** 01:46 Thanks for having me. I'd love to talk about farming and my community. I've been running Minto Island Growers for about 16 years here in South Salem. My husband Chris and I started the farm way back when. We were passionate about environmental science and community food systems when we met in college, and I grew up working on our family farm and it was the kid who always wanted to come back and work with plants. And when Chris and I formed our partnership we were ready to come back here, in 2008, after working at a farm in California and really building a community based organic farm. And I can delve more into what that means to me. But one of our primary works that we do on our farm is centered around our CSA program, which is an acronym for Community Supported Agriculture that's practiced in lots of different ways all over the world, really. Every farm does a little bit differently but you have a subscription based weekly produce box. And we do a main season and a winter season for that. And I can, again, talk more about that if that's of interest. And we have a farm stand where we also do lots of food: woodfired pizza and berry milkshakes and salads, things that we hope reflect all the beautiful abundance and diversity that you can grow and eat here in Oregon. And it's also just a wonderful community hub for families to come and gather and join and connect with nature and really connect with the earth. That's what I firmly believe food can do for us and feed our souls and bodies in all the really most profound ways. We do organic plant starts and we do mint propagation and we used to do native plant work that were projects that I grew up doing, but we don't do any of that anymore. And that's a short summary. And I'll stop talking so we can get into more detail. **Brooke ** 03:46 No worries, thank you. Now listeners, you're listening to this and you may be wondering why we're having a farmer come on and talk and we've definitely talked a lot about gardening, at home gardening, growing your own garden. We've talked a little bit about community gardens. And what intrigues me about what Elizabeth's doing and what I think is useful to us is that she and her farm operate on a fairly small footprint. They grow an incredible diversity of food. And it's a fairly small staff. And when I think about the future and climate change problems that we're having and the number of food chains, food supply insecurities that we have, I'm concerned a lot about how we grow food to feed a community. And I feel like what Elizabeth does with her farm does feed a large community and there may be parts of that that are replicable for the rest of us. So if we find ourselves in a time in which our supply chains have broken down or we can work together to develop a farm, there's a lot of insights from what she does that would help create those kinds of things and replicate them in other places, because she's not a large scale industrial farmer and is not mono-cropping. And really does, like I was saying, a lot on a small footprint with a small staff. So. Elizabeth, would you tell us a little bit more about some of the specifics of the farm like how much land do you farm? How much food do you produce? How many different crops? What's your staff size? Some of those kinds of things to fill in the details of what I was just saying, **Elizabeth ** 05:46 Sure, happy to. We lease about 29 acres. A lot of that encompasses non-production areas where we grow our plant starts and have our washing station and a commercial kitchen that supports the food cart. So in any given season, we are probably cultivating between 8 to 12 acres of land and that also includes lots of fallow fields that are either not in the rotation that year or hopefully are being cover cropped to add more nutrients and organic matter to the soil and to just practice good rotation. And one of the most amazing things about growing in the Pacific Northwest is the huge amount of diversity that you can grow here in this temperate climate, even with climate change. And that's going to stay true even within a climate change context. And I feel like having a diverse...a business model based on a high level of diversity can provide a lot of resilience within, you know, socio-political changes, climate change, context environmental extremes, you know, that.... Even though diversity is challenging, because it means you have to have a greater skill set per crop. And the complexity, the number of successions, and the complexity with the number of crops makes it difficult to run as lean and efficient and profitable of a business, it still provides a lot of resilience and it's really what our business model is based on. So we grow, you know, about 30 to 40 different crops and within that, over 100 different varieties. You know, just with pepper, eggplant, and tomato alone there's probably 30 to 40 varieties there, which is a little bit insane, but it's also incredibly exciting because there's so much diversity out there. And as a farmer, you know, it's just...it keeps...it's just exciting to delve into the world of diversity within varieties. And we do that both for fun, to expose our customers and our eaters and for ourselves to more options and things you don't get in the store. That's one of the fun things about gardening at home or working on or buying from a small farm is just getting access to more interesting varieties. We do that also because there's a lot of great plant breeding that goes on and can--depending on what the breeders are focusing on--there can be more resilience within a variety. That's especially true with the hybrid brassicas. So, you know, we love the seed saving. We love open pollinated varieties and heirloom varieties. But as farmers who rely on growing food for our economic living, we do buy hybrid seeds--nothing GMO, of course, because we're certified organic and we wouldn't do that anyway. But we do see it with certain crops like the hybrid brassicas--like the heading brassicas, like broccoli, cabbages, etc--having options with hybrids is really important for just vigor and yield and consistency. And even with tomatoes, we love growing the beautiful diversity of all the open pollinated heirloom tomatoes but, you know, now that we've been farming for over 16 years, we're seeing diseases we hadn't seen before, especially with the extreme.... Well, we had already seen late blight in our tomatoes, but I'm sure that it would have been.... Our very, very wet spring we had last year, we saw a bigger increase in fungal and bacterial diseases and we've seen resistance to those things in different varieties. So that's been an interesting thing we've observed in the last couple years. So yeah, our CSA model, it's changed a little bit over the years but essentially we do 22 weeks of a main season. And then we do about 7 weeks of a winter season. And our main season is June through the end of October and winter being November through February. And we could easily do a year round CSA in terms of what we're able to grow. It's those bridge months, we call them, from like February March, April, May are challenging but we have farmer friends who are really successfully do a year round CSAs because you can grow so much diversity here, especially if you utilize covered spaces really strategically, like hoop houses or even lower tech stuff like caterpillar tunnels--which are also important in a climate change context, even more so than then they have been in the past. So we do a combination for our CSA program of pack [unsure of spelling] shares, where we decide what goes in those shares. and we do two different share sizes to make it more...give more options to the community. And those get delivered to drop sites still relatively, you know, the farthest.... We used to go to Portland and then we realized at a point that we could fulfill all of our CSA shares here in the community. And so we decided to just deliver into the Salem area, which is so much better for many, many reasons. So the farthest we go out is Kaiser. But many of our drop sites are really pretty close to the farm. A few are five minutes away. Some are 10 minutes away. And that's because we really do cater to our local Salem community. And we are so proud of the relationships we've been able to build with our community over time, which I can talk more about because it's really its own thing to discuss. And then we do a market-style option, which again, different farms define this and do this in different ways. But for us it means setting up our produce at our farm stand two nights a week from four to seven. And we have a combination of fixed and choice items. And so the fixed items allow us to just have a little more reliable crop plan and make sure that we're still getting that good level of diversity out to our customers. People have to try to eat bok choy at least once a year, not five times a year, but once a year. It justifies us growing it too, which is good, you know. You want that diversity. It's good for our bodies. It's good for the soil. It's good in many, many ways. And then they get their choice items which they get to choose amongst. And like we've found that market-style option to just be incredibly popular, both for our customers and for us as a farm. It gives us so much more flexibility. It allows us to.... It justify us growing more specialty crops too because we can pick those really small amounts of like a specialty crop fully and put it out for market-style choice and we know that it'll all get taken and chosen versus like not being sure that that would all get enjoyed in our packed boxes, because we want to make sure that folks are really enjoying their CSAs. One of the big pieces...the most consistent piece of feedback we've gotten over the years, and many other CSA farms we hear this too, is that folks aren't able to fully utilize everything that's in their share. And they're usually joining a CSA because they value that local produce so much. And so trying to find ways to fit different people's needs within the CSA, you know, do the combo and fix and choice and also not...still grow specialty items but not have to grow huge quantities of it, you know. We've really fine tuned our model quite a bit over the years in the options that we've created. And then the winter season's every other week with a bigger break in the winter. And that's a combination of storage crops, but a lot of crops still coming from the field, which is really one of the things I love to talk about when I do tours is talking about just the amount you can still eat fresh from the fields where your nutrient density is still so high because things are fresh. You know, you lose a lot of your nutrients when things are picked and sit on the store shelves or, you know. They can be...not all frozen things are bad, you know. You can capture nutrients with certain types of processing techniques. But if it's not being processed in a certain way and it's just fresh, sitting on the shelf, you can lose a lot of your nutrient density that way. So the winter CSA is a really fun eating because it's still very, very diverse. And a lot of it's still really fresh. And there's some folks that just do that CSA. They might be really avid home gardeners, but they either don't have the scale or the storage capacity but they still want to eat a seasonal diversity and eat local and fresh. And so they'll come to our farm just for the winter CSA which is really neat. Yeah. **Brooke ** 14:13 And you do garden, or excuse me, "garden..." you do farm year round basically. It's not that you're...you're not working throughout those months when there isn't the CSA, right? Your farmers are still quite busy. **Elizabeth ** 14:29 That's very true. And yeah, you had asked to talk about our staff. So we--  **Brooke ** 14:34 Yeah, hold on, let me back up before you get into the numbers just because I want to review. Okay, so you're operating on eight or nine acres a year generally. And you're growing how many different crops, not including sub varieties? **Elizabeth ** 14:48 I'd say 30 to 40. I haven't encountered the actual list in a few years, but it's definitely between 30 and maybe 45.  **Brooke ** 14:58 30 to 45 crops. 8 or 9 acres. You're sort of actively actually farming and yielding stuff from May/June through winter. **Elizabeth ** 15:10 Well, with our covered spaces, honestly, it's almost February now. February or March through.... We had a really big success last year in growing a much greater amount of food fresh from the soil but in the covered spaces with the addition of the caterpillar tunnels. We were harvesting quite a bit starting in early March. **Brooke ** 15:32 You didn't say numbers on the CSA, but I just happen to know that it's about 250 families that sign up that get that weekly produce box through the summer. Plus, you still have a farmstand that people come and buy fresh at. Plus, you have wholesale. Do you know how much food you produce? Like I don't.... You know, I know sometimes I hear about tons of this or that, but....  **Elizabeth ** 15:54 You know, I don't know the statistics and I really should. We keep them all in our harvest spreadsheets for our own record keeping and for Oregon Tilth for the organic certification. And I should know some of those stats because it'd be really.... What I really should know is per acre and by crop, you know, per bed-foot yield. But it's changing. I mean.... I have two really talented.... Shoutout to my two head farmers, my harvest manager, Arabella, and my field manager, Justin, are in their fifth and sixth year of farming on our particular farm, which is important to say because you have to really learn how to farm a particular farm. You can be a talented grower, but knowing a particular farm's soil, experiencing multiple seasons of variations, both in disease, pests, cropping patterns, weather patterns, learning that level, you know, you have to know a lot about many different crops. It's a huge breadth of knowledge that you need. And so you only really get that depth by farming many seasons. So they're just at the peak of their game in their trajectory this year. And so many crops statistics that they have reported have been double or more. I mean, just.... And it was a quote, unquote, "normal year," you know, with no big climate extremes. No, you know, heat dome. No raining for the first three months of spring so that, you know, the soil tilth was so much better than last year, for instance, where we had one of the coldest, wettest springs on record. And we saw the effects on crop health, and especially disease, but just crop health generally because of the tilth of the soil. The roots...the plants just were never as healthy, especially the one-time plantings that you would have to establish in the beginning of the year when we were so pressed to get things in the ground. So this year has just been so incredibly positive and more bountiful than normally even so. It's really turning my head of what's possible growing wise, you know, because there's so much variation within a crop year-to-year. And you know that with a large level of diversity, you're never going to grow each crop perfectly. There's always going to be something that's going to have a challenge or be better than expected or have some unusual circumstance. That's the challenge but also the wonderful curiosity of farming is you're always learning something new because soil systems and ecological systems are so complex. So I should...I'll get some of those steps under my belt for the next time I have a conversation like this.  **Brooke ** 18:39 Well and that diversity, you know, another example of why that diversity is so important is that you're going to have some kind of crop failure or problem going on, right? Okay, so the CSA feeds something like 750 families. So if you had to take a guesstimate with, you know, Saturday markets and farmstand and wholesale, what do you think.... Like how many additional families worth of produce do you suppose that you put out? **Elizabeth ** 19:12 Oh, gosh, I mean, I'd say there's, you know, probably 700 to.... I don't know if we should say 1000 family units that come through the farm. You know, some people come to just have a milkshake with their kids and play on the playground, which is wonderful. My single biggest driving factor in starting the farm was that I wanted to continue a deep, and deeply important to me, and long family tradition of working within natural resources in Oregon. But most importantly, I wanted to keep the soil productive and in agricultural production so that it could be farmed for a few generations because we will need that soil and once.... If you can't afford to keep land in agricultural production and it's developed, you can never really go back from that. And two, was to give people the same opportunity to connect with the land that I had, you know? My family happens to own it. But of course the white people took all the land from the Native Americans and have abused it in many different ways over the years. And thankfully, the family tradition I was raised in, generationally it shifted, of course, because we've learned so much more about how to treat the land well. But there was always a history, like when my family was in timber. And that's where my family got its start was, you know, getting to take advantage, in some sense, of Earth's, you know, capital that it had grown for hundreds of years. And that's given me, in some way, the opportunity to have. But there was always an ethic of conservation and stewardship within my family's relationship to the land or to the natural resource that they were able to have the privilege to get to interact with. And I believe firmly that I'm so passionate about the Earth because I had the opportunity to connect with it. And so many people just don't have the exposure. They don't have the opportunity to either be out in nature or to have a garden. And of course, many people, you know, encounter that and experience it and find inspiration on their own. But it's hard...it can be hard to find that connection and that care for the earth and that perspective if you don't have the opportunity to interact with nature and with the soil. And food is such a fundamental way that we can all do that. And it connects us all. We all have to eat. So I just felt that our farm at Minto needed to be a community farm. People needed access to it. They needed to be able to connect to it and we needed to be able to connect to each other through that mechanism of growing and eating food. So that's always been a driving principle of our farm and our business. **Brooke ** 22:08 Yeah, and I'll say, you know, as an indigenous woman, how proud of you I am and how grateful I am for your ongoing.... You know, and you don't shy away from the awareness of the privilege that you have and where it came from and then the commitment that you have and have had towards land preservation and restoration and the way you take care of this piece of land. Yes, it is a business. But I think you would do things that would help the land and hurt the business because of your priority structure. Not that you would generally have to make that choice. But like if that's...if it came down to a decision between the two, I know that you're always going to take care of the land and make sure that it's healthy and strong and sustainable for generations. And that's really important culturally to me. So I'm, I'm grateful for that and to be a part of it. **Elizabeth ** 23:05 And thank you for that comment. I have so much learning to do. But I am so thankful for my family and especially my father for giving me that opportunity. He's my greatest hero and we share the same passion for plants and for soil and really the idea of stewardship that we just happen to be lucky to be able to have this relationship and that it's, you know, really.... I really wanted to examine what the idea of ownership is.... It's never made sense to me that we have the ability to own land, you know, and so there's so much more soul searching and seeking of...questioning of what that means. But I definitely see it as there's a huge responsibility when you do have the opportunity to try to do the best you can. And I'm thankful that my dad's been able to learn from me too. He still thinks we're crazy with all the amount of work that we put in. But he also understands. He sees how responsive the community has been to it. Because I believed...I knew that the community would come for this because it's just so fundamental. It's so fundamental to our wellness to be connected to the earth and to each other and to do it through food. It's like you can't really argue with it. And I am not.... This is not a discovery I'm making. This discovery has been fundamental to how we've interacted as a species since we've been evolving, you know? So um, yeah, so back.... I didn't really get to talk about the team that that makes it all happen because I-- **Brooke ** 24:53 Yeah, you must have a massive staff to produce this much food and be working this long and year round and so much land that you're doing. It must take an army to get that out, right? **Elizabeth ** 25:06 Yes, I simultaneously feel that it's huge and tiny and huge. And you know, my conception of it, my concept of it, expands and contracts depending on how I'm looking at things. But I just want to say that the people who choose to work on organic...small organic farms--or any farm really--are just some of the best people around there. They're in it because they're passionate about plants and soil and feeding their community. They're not in it because they're trying to make a bunch of money and they're sacrificing. Agriculture is often a lower paid profession. And there are very few farms, unless they're in a nonprofit structure or have figured some things out that I'm really trying to figure out, but there's usually not a benefit package to support, you know, these worker populations. And so it's just, it's a labor of love, the people that choose to do this work, and I am so humbled and proud to work with them every day. So we have a team of year-round managers. That's about four or five. And then we have a seasonal staff that expands quite a bit and quite a bit more so even this year to about between 20 and 30. But that encompasses all the farmstand staff and food cart and our perennial crew. And I haven't yet spoken about the fact that we grow blueberries and strawberries and we also have a neat  tea project. Camellia sinensis is the tea plant and all the types of teas, black, green, oolong, ect... come from that one plant. And my dad has a real innovative approach to plants and agriculture, always has, so he, with a partner, in the late 80s planted tea, and so I've gotten to try to move that project forward. And so we have managers that kind of head each part of that farm. We have a CSA manager. We have a CSA logistics person. We have a field manager. We have a perennial manager. We have a farmstead manager, a food cart manager. And often those folks will take on many other roles too on the farm or have done other.... So, it's a small but mighty team. And since we do farm year round, that core managerial staff is often working in the winter still, which is wonderful but also challenging because they work so hard during the main season that then to continue to work when it gets so much colder and wetter and muddier and everything is hard and you can't necessarily warm up and recharge your body during the day, it's.... I'm at a crossroads with our business where I'm really trying to build longer term sustainability. And we've been doing this for 16 years, so that's quite a long time and some big lessons learned and there's still a lot of resilience needed in our business model to keep going. And our managers are really the heart of the farm. I can't physically do all the work as a mother of two younger kids.  My husband, Chris, now works as a mint breeder and he still is able to work from the farm but for a totally different company. And he really supports my ability to keep farming because the economics are really challenging with small farms. So I'm just trying to think very creatively with the newer perspectives I have of how people can do this work year round, long term, and what they really want to do during the winter. I think it's an incredible niche for other folks that are interested in this as a business model. There are some beet firms that only do winter farming because so many fewer farms there do it and you can do so much. But I'm thinking of different options and different models for our farm, but that's probably a level of detail we don't need to go into today but it's.... Yeah, I'm really looking at our business model from all angles to try to build in long term resilience, just in terms of the model. Yeah.  **Brooke ** 29:24 Well, I might love to have you back sometime and talk about some specific things like winter farming or maybe.... I would love to do a whole thing on potatoes and I don't know if you want to come back for that but.... **Elizabeth ** 29:35 Well, I might stop throwing them so I don't know if you want me to. Not fully. Not fully. But if there's one crop I know we lose money on its potatoes. **Brooke ** 29:47 Wow. Okay, that's really interesting because potatoes are--  **Elizabeth ** 29:49 I'm not sure. My numbers will tell me this year but.... Yeah, we could do a deep dive on potatoes, even later in the episode if we have time, but.... People love potatoes, though. So that's a thing. There's like.... You want to grow what people love and you know they'll use. And they're nutritious. And they store. And they're so versatile in the kitchen. But....  **Brooke ** 30:12 Nutrient dense.  **Elizabeth ** 30:16 Yep. But we've had such a difficult time growing them consistently well. Last year, we doubled our yield from the previous year, and grew them better than we ever had. And then this year, it's kind of back down to, "Ehh?" normal yields. We're like, well, did we learn anything? What were the factors, you know. Sometimes there's trajectories in crops and trends and you're like, okay, I'm steadily getting better at this. I'm learning things that I'm applying to a consistently better outcome. Potatoes are not one of those crops. There just seems to still be so much uncertainty and variation in the end yields. And to me, you know, I like to think about what is really unique about a locally grown vegetable. And often there is something really special, whether it be a variety or the fact that it doesn't store well or it's super delicious, or it's more perishable, or, you know, many, many things. Potatoes, in my mind, unless it's a really interesting variety and it's a new potato, to me, potatoes are almost.... There's not that many distinguishing features that make a fresh, locally grown potato that different in comparison to everything else we grow. To me, it's more of a commodity type thing. Same with onions, but I love growing alliums and I will never stop growing them. But I could deep dive into those specific crops if we wanted to. **Brooke ** 31:43 Yeah, I think I'll save that for probably another one. But that is really interesting to know. And some of our audience members are going to have some strong feelings about not growing potatoes. And I understand that. And we've done episodes around.... Well, I don't know if we did it. I know Margaret, who's one of our other hosts who originally started the podcast, has certainly done a deeper dive on potatoes on one of her other podcasts. Anyway, sorry. If you said it, I guess I missed it, you talked about your management team but then like the harvest staff you have kind of at the height of your season, how many folks do you have?  **Elizabeth ** 32:25 Yeah, I'd say six to eight. I mean, you know, on a...Tuesday is our biggest harvest day, and there's probably, you know, six to eight people out there. Some of the managers come in to do half days, but you know, on a Wednesday, that's the second biggest day of our CSA, we'll have four or five in the morning and then three in the afternoon. So it really...it really varies.  **Brooke ** 32:50 So less than one person per acre? Not that that's how.... That's not a great measure. But, you know, if you're growing eight or nine acres, you have-- **Elizabeth ** 32:59 It's difficult to talk about the stats because you're growing...you have to do.... There's so many steps that go into the full execution of a crop. You know, onions, for instance, your crop planning in November. You're starting the seeds very, very early, actually. We used to do it in February. Now it's March. Because they're relatively slow growing and you have to grow quite a bit. You know, one onion plant is an onion versus a potato plant grows multiple potatoes. Same with a kale plant. You know, so lots and lots of seedlings, many, many flats. And then they are in the greenhouse for a long time. Then they get transplanted out and they grow all season long. They don't get harvested for storage until.... Of course we're taking spring or fresh onions out of the field starting in maybe July, but the bulk of the allium harvest isn't until August/September. And then they're stored all winter. So the labor that's spread across that whole.... You know, it's almost.... I mean, we have onions year round so sometimes an onion will be a seedling or in storage for almost an entire year. So it's difficult to fully, accurately allocate your labor across an acre or crop just because-- **Brooke ** 34:15 Sure. Yeah,  **Elizabeth ** 34:16 You know, but yeah, in peak season from June through September, I would say that there's six to eight people on average that are full time growing those crops. Growing, harvesting, delivering, etc...processing, delivery, ect... **Brooke ** 34:36 And that's what it takes to grow enough food to feed more than 250 families a weekly box of produce, six to eight folks. **Elizabeth ** 34:43 It probably could be quite a bit more. I believe, you know, with better farming techniques and, you know, I don't know if we want to go into no-till philosophy and practices on this episode, but from the learning we've been doing about some of these no-till farms that have been in operation for quite a long time. Singing Frog is one in California that's pointed to a lot because they've been farming for so long. The yields that they're getting per acre, it's almost like double or triple or even quadruple sometimes what even the best, you know, organic producers are saying they're getting. So I believe on our footprint we could be growing a much higher density of food per bed foot or per acre than we even are now, but it's very labor intensive. It's a very.... Which I think is good and challenging economically. But it's good that there is the opportunity for people to grow food for a living as their job. It's extremely enriching and gratifying on many levels. I think the economics are the hardest part. And I believe farmers should be making as much as doctors are making. I mean, maybe, yeah. Ehh, maybe not a specialist surgeon, you know, but you know what I mean? It's a very undervalued profession, especially for the crew position versus a managerial position. It's incredibly important and incredibly difficult. And food prices in our country, and across the world, it's just the way that we perceive food value is challenging. And affordability is incredibly challenging too. But there's just many things that should change in our food system to value, you know, to value food better. Not necessarily that it should cost more money for people, but the way that that work and that product is valued, there's a lot of improvement that could be made in that and you know, we could talk all about government subsidies and policy and all that another time. But I believe there's a lot.... I believe the federal government should be subsidizing small to medium diversified organic farms, not just large scale commodity farms growing GMO soy for a stupid faux green biofuel, you know? I mean, there's just so much wrong with our agricultural policy. But, again, another episode in the making maybe? **Brooke ** 35:06 Yeah, there's so much to get into there. And that's interesting. So you've had 16 years of learning and growing and it's a nonstop process, it sounds like. Partly with just because some crops are fickle and because of climate change. So, I want to rewind for a second all the way back to 16 years ago when you and Chris first started and compare, you know, what your staff size looked like, how much of the land you were farming, what kind of yield you were getting in those first few years as you were learning and developing. **Elizabeth ** 38:04 Again, I don't have those statistics. They're all anecdotal at this point. The big context for when Chris and I started the farm was that we were both more steeped in native plant and restoration work. Chris did, you know, he did Environmental Science at Colorado College and I was on that track as well but switched to more social sciences and music and.... But, you know, that's what I grew up primarily working with on our farm. We had a native plants nursery, and my dad did forestry research. And you can still see some of the cottonwoods, the native and the hybrid cottonwoods on the farm, which are an interesting thing that isn't active really anymore. But you know, those woody perennials and their kind of environmental uses, you know, from both just standard restoration to bio energy and phytoremediation, like toxic metals and wastewater clean up. And Chris and I were really interested in green roofs and urban use of plants, you know, and that.... So when we started the farm, we were passionate about food systems and we started a small CSA. We started with five people, five shares. And LifeSource was actually our first sale of Romaine. I still have the receipt framed. We sold them some romaine. And we're not currently selling to them right now. But we have sold them quite a bit in the past. And Marion Polk Food Share is currently our large wholesale account. But yeah, we started with five members, one who is still an active member of our CSA, which I love. And we actually had a largely Latino crew. Pedro and Maria were husband and wife. Pedro used to work with my dad doing the hybrid poplar harvest. And Maria and her sisters and her nieces were our core crew for quite a long time. And they are amazing people who I miss on the farm. And that's another whole topic, of just agricultural labor and how that's changed so much. But it's interesting to think back to that because that's a very different population of people. And they are such skilled agricultural workers. And I miss so many aspects of that on the farm. And currently most of our worker population are young students. It's a lot of Willamette students, other students, people who are transitioning to other professions, people who are going into horticulture, you know, who are plant and science based people all mostly in their early 20s or 30s. It's.... How to do this work into your 40s, 50s, and 60s, and 70s is a whole nother thing that I'm thinking about quite a bit now as I'm entering my early 40s. But yeah, very different demographics of people who were working on the farm. And Chris and I were doing so many native, woody plant-based projects at that time. We were in mint propagation, and that was both really positive because we were really passionate about that work and it's really interesting work, and Chris had been working at a living roof ecological restoration company down in California before he moved up to Oregon. And it also spreads really, really thin across the farm and across many projects. And it didn't...we didn't have the.... Now, in hindsight, I realize it. Doing too many things just doesn't allow you to really focus in and hone your skills and get your discipline, especially with the economics, in your key project areas. And so we grew our CSA model and the direct-to-farm model really quickly. I think we said, "Yes," to everything. Like "Yes, we'll do the Wednesday farmers market. We'll do the Salem public market, we'll do the Salem Saturday market. We'll do the Tuesday OHSU farmers market and then oh, while we're up at the Tuesday OHSU market, they want to do wholesale for their institutional bid at OHSU, and they need a new CSA farm for all of their drop sites. And I thought, well, what an opportunity. They're one of the largest employers in Oregon there. They have an in-house nutritionist who is incredible, who's still there and still passionate about food systems, and what an amazing opportunity. And it was. I mean, I don't know.... It felt to me at the time it was, but really, it just, I think, spread us too far and wide and thin. And so that's one of the biggest hindsight reflections I have at this point of just.... And I encourage anyone who's interested in this type of farming model is t to make this model successful, to actually not burnout with an injury, to burnout psychologically, like my husband, Chris did, and physically doing this work, to not get into debt, you know, to have a good business plan, and to be disciplined about your numbers, you just have to plan well, and you have to be diligent about your expansion. And I think we just...we had so much enthusiasm and so much demand for our products, so we just grew really fast without really understanding the economics of that growth. And so there was a mid period where our first really.... Tim, who's now a farmer in...he was a Willamette student and now a farmer in New Orleans. And a very wonderful farmer himself, now. He and his partner, Madeline, also a really talented farmer, they're both from Willamette. But Tim was our first kind of longer term staffer who became a manager. And he really.... He and Lindsey, another wonderful Willamette student, they were so gung ho about scaling up our CSA, and also doubling our market sales at the Saturday market, you know. They had these personal professional goals that they brought to the business. And we had never before had the capacity for that kind of growth because we hadn't had folks that were like, you know, quote, unquote, "like" Chris and I, that kind of had that same bird's eye view perspective and were really interested in the business side of things and the strategy and we're kind of doing the business planning with us and really had the capacity to take on that growth. And so they wanted to expand the CSA by like 40 shares one year and they were in their fourth year of farming. They had the capability. They're both incredibly bright and incredibly hardworking. And they were also young. They had that 20 year old energy. It's really something and it's unique, you know?  And so those were some of those mid years of growth, really came from those strategic managerial staffers that really when I look at the peak, the growth spurts that we've had over the business as the business has expanded and also gotten better and more efficient and gained the knowledge and depth, it's because of these...it always has coincided with the peak of these managerial staff that have come into their third and fourth and fifth seasons. And they go in cycles. And they eventually have to cycle through because they want their own farms or they can't physically, they don't physically want to do the work anymore, or, you know, there's a combination of reasons, but it's always a cyclical thing. And that's a pattern that is now known to me, but it also is still a vulnerable pattern. So those are the patterns I've had, yeah, the kind of patterns I've been able to recognize at this point. Yeah.  **Brooke ** 45:49 So if people are doing this model, either for business or, you know, in the context of trying to develop a small farm like this for community support and perhaps a climate collapse situation, knowing that sort of rotation that people will go through and helping make sure that, you know, whoever's.... Even if you're collectively running the farm and everyone sort of equal partners, knowing that there is sort of that learning and burnout cycle to be aware of and, you know, having the members of your community that are doing this together supporting each other and taking some turns with it over time, like that sounds really important. **Elizabeth ** 46:29 And trying to build structurally into the business ways to prevent that burnout. So even this next season that I'm looking towards, where those two key managers are moving on, and we've known that and we've been planning for and they're going to help us transition at the beginning of the next season, thankfully, but we're looking towards, you know, training a new set of managers. The expectation for that new set of managers is going to be completely different. I want every manager to be able to go on vacation during the peak production season for at least like a week or a long weekend, a Friday, Monday, or four or five days. They need that. They need that physical and psychological break. They need that recharge. Everybody needs it, everyone deserves to go on vacation and to not work, especially farmers. And there was never that.... Our previous managerial staff, they're just, that isn't a common expectation on most farms. You're just sort of expected to to work your ass off, excuse me, and you will anyway. So, it's up to the owners, or to the collective leaders, to find ways to build that structure of balance into the structure from the beginning, but this is the advice I would give. Because the work is hard no matter what. It's some of the most challenging work you're going to do no matter what, especially in a climate change context. The extremes are here. They're not predictable. You might have experienced one extreme, but you don't know what the next extreme is going to be like or what it's going to do in your ecological system. So you can't even really plan for it. That's the challenge of farming in a climate change context is these extremes. I'm sure there'll be some similar ones. Perhaps we'll be able to apply lessons learned. But that's been the biggest challenge of experiencing these climate extremes over the last five or six years is that it's been a new extreme each time. And so the learning curve is immense and it's stressful and it's costly and there's so much uncertainty. So that's a challenge. **Brooke ** 48:35 So really quickly then as our last thing on this, before we wrap, you've mentioned some of the climate issues that we've had, and I know I've mentioned these on other episodes of the podcast too, that, you know, for instance, last year, we had a really long, cold wet spring that went well into the first part of the growing season and it really screwed a lot of things up in a lot of different ways. And then two years ago we had some really extreme heat in that summer or a couple times over temperatures that have, you know, record breaking heat temperatures here. And so now we're looking ahead at the world and we know that there will continue to be climate issues and to some degree, you can kind of predict for your own area what's most likely to happen and what's somewhat likely to happen and what's not very likely to happen in terms of your individual climate extremes. Is that something that you actively work into your plans or is it something you deal with as it comes up? You know, how much are you looking ahead and planning for that and practicing for that on your own farm? **Elizabeth ** 49:43 Yeah, I think that we're planning for it to the extent that we can, you know. Like you've said, there is some predictability and now that we have experienced, you know, the heat dome.... The wildfires were so, just almost a completely totally different scenario, because you could hardly be outside safely, you know, but you we had to keep...some crops had to continue to be harvested or else it would make them unharvestable for a period after. You know, farms like ours, you have to continually harvest many crops. And then flooding has been really.... Wet and cold is always something we dealt with, but the extremes of last year were just far and above. And then flooding has been also greater and at times that we had never experienced before. Like we had some really intense flooding in April. I think that was like six years ago now. And so, yeah, ways that we're adapting and planning for that, you know, where we have floods...we have fields that are more flood…that are more.... All of our farm fields are in the floodway, actually. It's a pretty extreme flood plain designation from the Army Corps. But some of our fields are lower and they farm, you know, almost every winter. And so to the extent we can, we plan our rotations so that our winter crops are now, like I mentioned before, we had some crops, some of our first crops of the season in April, flood. So to the extent we can, we try to be cognizant of where that flooding might happen and try to put more vulnerable plantings in higher fields. But that's difficult for us to always do, but we try our best at it. Season extension, you know, through covered spaces is something that farmers have been doing all over the world forever, because it just gives you more flexibility, extends your growing season, and you can control your environment better. Sometimes you have less...you're less prone to pests. Those diseases can be much greater risk. So,you know, we had never had a huge amount of covered spaces. They're expensive to put in. And they're more difficult growing environments. I always like to say that they kind of expose all your weaknesses. And so since we've been spread so thin across so many projects and so much diversity and probably more scale than we should have expanded to too early, we have not always been the greatest hoop house or covered space growers. But our team's really improved in that area in the last few years. And so we've really benefited from partnerships with the NRCS. They administer the organic equip program and they give dollars towards conventional and organic farmers, the organic equip program specifically for organic farmers for many projects like cover cropping, restoration projects, hedgerows, and, most impactful for us, hoop house infrastructure. So all of our hoop houses and our caterpillar tunnels, including two more that we bought that haven't been put up, were all partially funded by the NRCS, which is really, really great use of our tax dollars. We can all at least maybe feel good about that for the use of our tax dollars. Yeah. And so that's.... Those spaces have been really instrumental in our bridge season growing, would you like to call it, especially the early season. Like, we all know Oregon springs can be cold and wet in a normal year and relatively unpredictable, and so because we are building our farm model on a CSA that starts in June, which actually really isn't that early, and people are really ready to eat seasonally from the farm in June. They're coming to us in April and May like, "When does the CSA start?" Like they think it should just all be available. And yeah, certain crops are. But to have the level of diversity and scale in June to feed that many people does take quite a bit of planning and land space. And so having just those extra covered spaces so that we can just fine tune our planting schedule and our planting mix in those early months, has been really key. And then methodologies that were even kind of pre a climate change context but just for better spring farming, like there was a practice that we were following, many farmers are doing, with preparing beds in the fall, tarping with silage tarps, and then that allows you to just pull back those silage tarps in the spring when you have a couple days of dry out. And then you can direct seed and transplant right into those beds, as opposed to having to wait for a one or two week dry window and leaving soil uncovered without a cover crop, which you don't really want to do anyway. So that completely changed our spring growing. And then adding in extra covered spaces this year was what allowed us to have such a wonderful early diversity. And then pushing, being pushed more towards no-till and regenerative practices that are, we feel, can just provide even more resilience in a climate change context, and in any in any context, you know, when you're building up the quality of your soil with the microbiology and organic matter. And from what we've researched and seen, the potential for healthier, happier crops that are produced with less fossil-fuel-based equipment and don't release carbon because of tillage, and just myriad other benefits that we've been seen and been hearing about, we were motivated to start our own no-till experimental plot. And so we had our first crops on that this year and they did well. And the soil--we didn't know how our heavier clay content soil would respond to no-till practices and from what we've read and understood, really the benefits of no-till don't take in massively so until years three to five. It takes a while to do your weed control and for your microbiology to get in there and add all that soil health. It just takes a while for the soils to adjust. Yeah, it's like how to.... How I say this to kids on tours is like, “How do forests feed themselves? How do those big old growth trees get so big? Humans aren't coming in and fertilizing those trees. It's just decomposition and micro organisms and all those amazing nutrient relationships between the micro organisms.” It's like they're just all working in this beautiful, and even more so we know now, because of these really cool scientists that are doing forestry research showing how these forest communities are this huge interconnected network with the root systems and the fungi and bacteria. It's just so much more complex and interconnected than scientists ever even thought. And so it's the same principle applied to annual or perennial farms. So we're only in...this will be year two. But we were already interested in those practices and some folks on our staff, Garabella, had studied that in college at Willamette and was already really passionate about it. We'd been doing some experiments with it, but this was our first year really biting the bullet and saying, okay, this is our no-till plot. And we're really, really enthused by the results and how well the soils responded. It's hard to break that addiction to tillage. I love tillage. I love tractors and PTO shafts and rototillers. But it's also really disruptive. SO it's breaking those habits. Yeah. **Brooke ** 57:11 And I know you can talk about this literally, for the rest of the week, but we should probably wrap it up here for now. It's been really great having you on and I do hope that we can have you again to talk about some more specifics of this and other things so we can continue to learn how to develop some of this in our communities and encourage the farms that are doing it. **Elizabeth ** 57:35 Thank you so much for having me and exposing and educating our community. **Brooke ** 57:40 Absolutely. And, you know, also to the world over because we have listeners internationally as well. And we love you all very much. Elizabeth, is there anything that you want to plug or promote here before we say goodbye? **Elizabeth ** 57:57 Just in relation to our conversation earlier, just really taking many, many steps back and looking at the communities of people that had a relationship to this land for generations before us. And there's an awesome nonprofit here in Salem run by Rose High Bear, and it's called Elderberry Wisdom Farm and they're an indigenous based nonprofit. And I'm not going to get their mission statement right. But they're educating about indigenous plant communities and knowledge bases and practices of those communities in relation to land. And I'm looking forward to learning more from Rose about their work. And obviously, they're working specifically with the elderberry plant but also indigenous youth. And so if you're in the Salem community, check out their work and support them. **Brooke ** 58:47 Wonderful. Okay, thanks so much for that, Elizabeth. We also want to say thanks to all of our listeners who check out our podcasts. If it's something that you are enjoying, please like it, share it, let others know about it. That's how we reach more voices and help more folks. If you want to comment at me about any of this you can find me on Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Brook with an E. Especially if you have any follow up questions for Elizabeth because she's pretty easy to get ahold of and likes talking about her farm and so I will probably try to drag her back around. So if you want specific questions answered, I'd be so happy to share those with her. This podcast is brought to you by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness publishing collective that produces podcasts, zines, books, posters, comics, and many other forms of educational leftist media. You can check us out at Tangledwilderness.org You can find all of our latest publications there. And if you really love our work and want to help us continue, especially with the podcast production, you can support us on Patreon. We do a monthly zine mailing to our Patreon supporters. That's a really wonderful mix of stories, politics, and poems. It's a different thing that comes out every month. And we especially want to give thanks to some of our patrons who support us at the $20 month level. And those wonderful folks include patolli, Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Paige, SJ, Dana, David, Nicole, Chelsea, Jenipher, Kirk, Staro, Chris, Micaiah, and as always, Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much.

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret talks with Sam and Amadeo about their experiences shepherding in the Swiss Alps. They talk about the problems that shepherds are facing in Switzerland with wolves, climate change, city mentalities, and right-wing propaganda. Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Sam and Amadeo on Sheep, Wolves, and Climate Change **Margaret ** 00:16 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy and this is an episode about sheep...and sheep farming. Shepherding, I believe we might want to call it, in the Alps. I'm really excited about it. We've been planning this episode for a while, because we are going to be talking to two sheep farmers in the Alps about climate change and about the return of wolves and about ecology and about why the right-wing picks all the wrong talking points and a bunch of other stuff. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network.  **Margaret ** 01:52 Okay, we're back. So if y'all could introduce yourselves with your name...your names, your pronouns, and I guess just a little bit about your background with shepherding. **Sam ** 02:05 All right, Hi, I'm Sam, my pronouns she/her and we are in Vienna right now. And yeah, I'm an artist and also a bit of a writer, filmmaker. I do a lot of that kind of stuff. Lately I have been working a lot with metal and smithing And yeah, I went with Amadeo on a sheep farm and Alps in Valais in Switzerland. And we want to tell you a bit about our experience. **Amadeo ** 02:38 Yeah, my name is Amadeo. He/him. I'm 38. Actually, I started to work as a teacher now. I teach biology and some other stuff, politics, and so on. And yeah, This was my third year...third summer, not third year, third season to work as a shepherd but the first time with sheep, actually. Before that I worked with cows and milking and so on. Yeah, and for me it was also the first time with sheep and the first time in this area of Switzerland. I'm Austrian. But the payment in Austria is really bad so we went to Switzerland. So we are also the working migrants. Or what do you call it in English? **Margaret ** 03:31 Migrant workers, I guess.  **Amadeo ** 03:34 Yes.  **Margaret ** 03:36 Okay, so what brought you all to sheep farming or to farming in general as like the thing to go do with your summers for work?  **Amadeo ** 03:47 Should I?  **Sam ** 03:48 Yeah, you can. **Amadeo ** 03:50 So, I had this experience in 2020 and 21, I think, and I really liked it in a way. It was very hard work back then, but I learned a lot. And we met after that, actually, and decided we would like to go together. And then we just hit up the internet and looked for work and places to go and then we found this place that sounded pretty ideal for us because it was sheep farming and no milking, which is nice. I didn't want to do the milking job and do cheesemaking and so on again, I wanted to stay outside mostly, like the whole day under the sky and not in the staple. And yeah, we found this place where you don't need your own dogs, which is nice. We were working with blacknose sheep, they're called. It's like a breed that is only bred in this area. Or not only but traditionally there. And yeah, we tried to get the job and we got it. **Sam ** 05:08 I guess we also got in because Amadeo also already had a lot of experience. And yeah, they were looking for two people there and without dogs. And yeah, I also got...I was really lucky that I was with Amadeo because, you know, like some very daily stuff, he already was prepared for this job. Like, you need a lot of some equipment and know what to take. And yeah, I was really.... **Amadeo ** 05:36 The thing was that, of course, the owners of the sheep, they want someone who has some experience because it happens often that you think, "Oh, it's nice. It's in the mountains. It's beautiful." And then people after two weeks, three weeks, they say, "No way. I can't work here. It's way too hard." I mean, it's like pretty hard work. It's outside all day. With rain, with snow sometimes. And you work from sunup to sundown every day, seven days a week. And many people underestimate it because there's like, I don't know, this idea drawn of what it's like to work in the mountains and it's always beautiful. And it is. But it's also very hard work, actually. **Margaret ** 06:22 It seems really hard. It wouldn't immediately occur to me that I could just go run out and become a shepherd like tomorrow. But I have two questions. And they're related. And one is, what does an average day look like for a shepherd in an Alpine Valley? And the second question that's related is, do you get a shepherd's crook? **Sam ** 06:42 Yeah, well, the day starts with sunrise. Around five was when the summer started. We got there in mid of June. I stayed till mid of September. Amadeo had to leave a bit earlier. And the day ends with sunset. And yeah, you bring the sheep back into the night pen. You say, "pen," huh? Like a space where there is electricity on. Pen? [Said with air of not being sure if it's the correct word] **Amadeo ** 07:15 Do you know what that is? Or, did we get the right word?  **Margaret ** 07:17 Like an animal pen? Or is it a barn? **Amadeo ** 07:19 Yeah, it's like it has no roof. It's not a barn. It has no roof. It's just a fence. An area fenced. A fenced in area with strong electricity because of the wolves. **Margaret ** 07:35 Oh, yeah. Okay, it has an electric fence. Yeah, **Sam ** 07:37 yeah, exactly. And yeah, we would move every two weeks to a new pasture with the sheep. And there were 12 farmers or sheepherders. They're not all farmers. They also have another life. Most of them have another job. They work as bus drivers in heavy industry. And yeah, they also are doing a lot of work. So they're working with us there. We were there most of the time alone, but they come on weekends. They bring us food. They set up the pastures, lines, the fences too. Yeah. And so then we stay out with the sheep all day, any weather. And yeah, also, when we moved the pasture, they came for help because it's hard to change the pasture. You sometimes have to cross a river. And.... **Margaret ** 08:29 Wait, how do you cross the river? Do you just like drive them through the river? **Amadeo ** 08:33 Yes.  **Margaret ** 08:35 Like , "Go swim!"  **Amadeo ** 08:38 It was not such. It was more like a stream than the river. A river sounds bigger than it was.  **Sam ** 08:48 It was like this, like we always make a plan in the evening. Even a drawing. We were five people planning this. And then it always ends up in pretty much chaos and completely different. And in the end they were screaming, "Sam! Go! Go!" And I was like, I even had shoes on and the first sheep I was pulling, just one sheep, with all my strength through the river. And then all the sheep follow. **Margaret ** 09:14 Okay, okay. I have friends who keep sheep but in the city. And they just keep like six of them or something. And it's just a very different thing than like a free ranging sheep. And so it's hard for me to conceptualize.  **Amadeo ** 09:30 We had 400. **Margaret ** 09:32 Yeah, that's more than six. I'm good at numbers. That's amazing. Okay, cool. **Sam ** 09:38 So part of the daily routine is also to do the basic medical care. So we were introduced to that. Sometimes they have claw problems. [Claws are sheep toes] **Amadeo ** 09:38 Problems with the claws.  **Sam ** 09:39 Problems with claws. So this was a regular thing. And sometimes using antibiotics against.... **Amadeo ** 09:58 Yeah, and we had to clean the pen every day, which was like three to four hours of work for one of us. Like shoveling shit. **Margaret ** 10:09 Yeah, okay. But you didn't answer the second question. Did you have a shepherd's crook? Do you know what that is? [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 10:17 Not a real one. We had like umbrellas. Big ones that were very useful against the sun. And so preparedness thing number one, if you stay in the high alpine areas, the altitude of the higher pastures were 2500 meters [8,200ft], you need something to cover you against the sun and against the rain. So big umbrellas were pretty handy. **Sam ** 10:46 And also the sheep have horns so it's easier to catch them. You have to learn this also, but you throw yourself on the sheep and then you tackle them down. I got really good at this. And also the blacknose sheep in the valleys, they have very long hair. And, I mean, it's breeding, right? They do it for breeding, the sheepherders. So the wool, it doesn't get any money. It's nothing. It's not worth anything anymore. But for the beauty contests that the sheep go to it's really important. It's a tradition. And they let it grow.... **Amadeo ** 11:26 They have very long face hair so some of them are basically blind. Most of them have like, how do you say something that rings? What is it? A bell? Yes.  **Sam ** 11:39 Yeah, but they get lost because they don't see anything and our job was also to make them hair ties and to tie the hair. And also the sheepherders would come to do this because we could not do this for 400 sheep. Yeah, so that was also part of the job, Yeah, it adds up. There are some different tasks. And yeah, since we would move with the sheep, maybe also that.  So also the moving is part of. You're always packing your stuff. You need to think, okay, how much food we need to...how much will we eat and how much do we need to take to the next hut. So organizing this is part of it. And then we had a small hut that was flied in with a helicopter. It was... **Amadeo ** 12:12 Flown in. Flown with the helicopters for the most remote places where we would stay with the sheep because otherwise you would have to walk a long way, like 45 minutes to the cabin every day. So they brought in a tiny hut for one person, actually.  **Margaret ** 12:47 For you all?  **Amadeo ** 12:49 Yeah, yeah. Flown with the helicopter so we could stay next to the sheep.  **Sam ** 12:55 But it was so small. Like one was sleeping on the floor, the other on this little bed. And also you always need to organize this hut when you come with very wet clothes. You have no space in there. We had a little solar panel. So this was doing.... We had a fridge at least. Very high tech. I guess 20 years before, we would not have a fridge. And some light even in the cabin and a stove. A wood stove. It got crazy hot because it's so small and yeah. So organizing this hut was also not so easy. And we were lucky because there was a lot of water in this valley. Like it's full of water. And so we would get water from the... **Amadeo ** 13:43 From the springs around.  Wells? How you say? **Margaret ** 13:48 Well, I mean, a well is a hole dug in the ground and then a spring is usually a natural spring or it's like a pipe stuck in the side of a hill that the water comes out of. **Amadeo ** 13:57 Yeah, it was a natural spring. No pipe, though. Just some moss and it was nice. **Margaret ** 14:04 And so you can just go straight from that or do you have to filter it? **Amadeo ** 14:08 It depends. We had, at some points, we could just drink it from there. We didn't filter it. At the cabins we had covered springs, wells. Or springs? So we could...it was okay. But the open ones, we had to take care of where the sheep were. If the sheep can go around then it's not so good. It was better if it was higher up where they wouldn't go. **Sam ** 14:42 Yeah also good that there were a lot of springs so the sheep would get water. They need to drink. And sometimes there were pastures where they could only drink one time in the day, so they also learn when they have to drink in the morning because we had really hot days also where these blacknose sheep with all the wool, they really get hot. And yeah, then also we learned how the sheep walk in every pasture. They have the same kind of routine that follows the sun also. And you kind of learn their ways. And also maybe when it's time to act to get the sheep back, I mean, without a dog. Yeah, you need to learn this also, I guess, when it's time. **Amadeo ** 15:33 I always said, if you want to move against their will, you are the dog, you have to run around like crazy. They have their rhythm and they have their ways, you know? **Margaret ** 15:46 So, did you all use dogs? Like also? Or is it sometimes dogs, sometimes no dogs? **Amadeo ** 15:54 No, we had none. The thing is that this kind of race [breed of sheep] is very used to people and they're not moving that far. So you can walk with them. It's okay. It's just the problem is you can have two kinds of dogs, right? You can have dogs to protect against wolves, for example. Then they live with the sheep. They're inside of the flock all the time. But it's a problem with hikers and so on. Because they attack everyone that comes near, right? **Margaret ** 16:33 This explains a little bit about my dog.  **Amadeo ** 16:36 Yeah, and so you can really have them there because it's also like a recreational area. This area, like a lot of people go hiking there and so on. So you can't have dangerous dogs. And the other thing would be like dogs that help you move the flock.  **Margaret ** 17:01 Herding dogs?  **Amadeo ** 17:02 We didn't really need it, right? Because we would have not.... I mean, it was big areas but still we would stay in one area for two weeks and then we would move on to the next area. So you didn't really need dogs to guard them the whole day. **Sam ** 17:23 But it's really a calm.... The blacknose sheep are really really calm sheep. We learned this also because like certain sheep breeds, you say, right, they run way more. They run all day. And you really need dogs there. Yeah, so we.... **Amadeo ** 17:40 But with the blacknose, no, they are kind of calm. Yes. And they have a long...during the day they have a long break time.  **Sam ** 17:48 Resting time.   **Amadeo ** 17:49 Yeah, because if it's getting hot up there, the sun is very strong. It can be like, I don't know.... Like I mean the degrees don't get up that much like in the flat areas but the sun, how you say...the sun rays are really strong. **Margaret ** 18:11 Yeah, because when you're at a higher altitude there's less atmosphere to protect you, right? I know what I mean. But I don't know the words for it. **Amadeo ** 18:22 Yeah, the sheep have some...if it's a hot day, they rest for four hours during midday. They try to find, you know, shady spots and just rest. And so at that time, you can also rest. If it's rainy, you can't rest because then they are moving too. Yeah. **Margaret ** 18:48 It makes me...the no dog thing, I'm like.... My dog was bred to have a million different jobs. My dog is just a complete mutt of a lot of different working breeds. And so Rintrah, my dog, is never quite sure whether he's supposed to be herding, or chasing, or retrieving things. He just wants to do all of it all the time. And one of the proudest things I've ever had, my proudest dog mom moment, was staying with my friend who has goats and sheep and one of the baby goats just got out of the pen and was running around the yard. And so Rintrah just herded it into a corner and then like calmly barked to inform us that he had trapped the goat. And I was just like, no one taught you how to do that. He wasn't a year old. He just was like , "This is what I do." And so like, I imagine how happy my dog would be as a sheepdog, a herding dog, which isn't necessarily true because he has adhd. This is a complete tangent. I just like talking about my dog. But you all, one of the reasons I want to talk to you, you talked about how a lot of this ties into preparedness and how it feels you've learned a lot about preparedness that you're like taking into the rest of your life by having done this work. I was wondering if you wanted to talk more about that. As a complete, look how expertly I tangented...pivoted from one topic to another. **Sam ** 20:11 Yeah, yeah, actually your podcast was really a bit with us in this time. It was cool, the topic of preparedness. And yeah, for me in this way, thinking about preparedness, what's also weighed in with this work was to get somehow familiar again with the conditions of doing this work, of ways of living in this open environment, of existing there with the sheep and in this non-human environment. And also, maybe, in this threatened environment that somehow you would.... And also the organization structures, how this work is possible, that it needs a lot of people and it needs a lot of people who do this. I mean, there's the farmers or sheepherders, they do this because they love this work. Because they have done this all the time. It's tradition. And yeah, that they somehow save something. **Amadeo ** 21:17 I mean, to talk about the practical side, if you stay outside the whole day, every day, seven days a week, you learn a lot of what you really need and what you don't need. I think that was big. Yeah, it was like very valuable to me to see what I really need. And I remember listening to your podcast, and you talk a lot about being prepared in a way, like having podcasts on your phone, for example. Because if you have to stay with sheep for 10 hours a day, you need to...you had a lot of time to think. And I loved having a good book because I could read and then think for hours about it and have like, I think, yeah, more time than in the city where you are distracted from one topic to another. So this really is good to have more, I don't know, space in my head. This was a good thing. And yeah, I think looking at, how you say, like, being outside in nature everyday and witnessing all these little changes from day-to-day. This was very, very, very special. And I think I learned so much about life and also about survival because all the animals and the plants there, they are...like, they have to survive in a very harsh environment with very short growing period, for example. I mean, lots of snow during.... Winter lasts, I don't know, for 10 months, or like, let's see, nine maybe? You know what I mean? Like when we came mid June, there was still snow. And in August before we...the end was the 16th, I think, of September, but we had to leave the higher pastures at the end of August because it was starting to snow heavily. And yeah, it's like very different too.  **Sam ** 23:30 But still to also learn about the fears and the sheepherder have. And also, yeah, it's an environment that's threatened and that will change through climate change for sure. Like it is changing. And I thought also on some days that it gets hotter and hotter every summer. And also last year, the grass was really dry. So the sheep would get this disease called, in German, Lipinkin [cannot translate], which is little bit like herpes. Yeah. And yeah, they had to be treated, every sheep, and give some.... **Amadeo ** 24:05 Some cream. But do that for 400 sheep, man. **Margaret ** 24:11 Yeah, that sounds like it would take a while.  **Sam ** 24:14 Medication for 400 sheep. So yeah, they have struggles they face. And then the wolf, of course, is a new topic. And yeah, they have to deal with a lot of stuff. Yeah. **Margaret ** 24:27 Well, let's talk about wolves. Let's talk about--you all mentioned beforehand when we were getting ready to talk about how wolves have maybe either been reintroduced or are coming back in that area to a certain degree and how that threatens this way of life but like not as much as climate change does and how it all ties into the right-wing and I kinda wanna to hear about it. **Amadeo ** 24:51 Yeah, since a few years, since I was like.... 2020 was really when I was first introduced to this life, to these people in Switzerland. First of all, I came from the city and I didn't know that it's such a big topic already. Because in Austria, we have a few wolves. But not to mention, you know, maybe a dozen. But I learned that in Switzerland since the last, I don't know, 20 years, from a dozen they now have, I think, 250. Around 250. And, like, I don't know, 25 packs or something, or something like this. Which doesn't sound so much, but it's like...it's not such a big country. And they are a lot in these areas. For example, in Valais where we stayed, we knew that the nearest wolves are just two kilometers away. And they have offspring. So for them, they need meat and so on. And I mean, the sheep are puffy, you know. It's like, go get them. **Sam ** 26:01 Also, on the other side of the mountain, actually, there was another shepherd with a, I think, also around 400.... Fuck, I don't know exactly how many sheep. And there the wolf came. And he killed, I think, seven sheeps. And also one of his dogs was attacked. So it was really close. And also the fear that we might face an attack was also really with us. And also there was a guy who takes care of the area.  **Amadeo ** 26:34 A ranger.  **Sam ** 26:35 Yeah, and he came and told us, "Hey, you really have to watch out. They're really close." So yeah.  **Amadeo ** 26:42 But the thing is, the crazy thing for me is that, of course, this threatens, in a way, people that are used to putting their cattle, putting their sheep just in a meadow and leaving them, you know. Have a look once a week or something. Of course now with the wolves, it's not possible because a wolf would kill many. They start to, you know, get into like.... If they can they kill 10 and then just take one, you know. They just.... If they [sheep] don't run away and they don't run far, you know, 100 years of, I don't know, living with humans and being petted and so on, they don't have--you know what I mean? They don't have it in them anymore to really run. Because normally, if a wolf attacks a  deer, for example, the pack can't find any deer for another week or something because they're all alert. They're alert as soon as there is an encounter. With the sheep, it's not so much. So now it's a problem, of course, but there would be solutions. You just, you need to adjust. You need to change the way it works. Yeah, you need protection. You need people to look after the sheep and so on. And for many areas, this is really hard. Because if you have an alpine pasture that is very remote, steep hills everywhere, you know, it's so hard to really fence it off or something. It's not possible. So I can understand it for the farmers. It's hard. And when we talked with them about it, they were always like, "We have to kill the wolf," you know? And it's now protected. It's under national protection. You cannot just shoot them. Even if they kill some of your sheep, you can't. And there was a big--in Switzerland you have more, how you say, basic democracy. So many of the laws are decided by a vote of everyone. So there was a big vote about if the protection status of the wolves should be loosened in a way. Not that you can just hunt them but loosen in a way that you can, I don't know, shoot some if they're attacking cattle or.... **Margaret ** 29:11 Can you shoot them if they attack you? **Amadeo ** 29:13 No, we had no gun. I mean, they won't attack  humans but... **Margaret ** 29:20 I'm an American, so I'm like....Okay, so like, I think about this a lot. Okay. I'm really...the wolf thing is so interesting to me for a thousand reasons. And one is that the destruction of wolves is such a emblem of civilization. It is such an emblem of the conquest of nature, right? And you have, for example, the no wolves in Ireland thing. You know? And that the British were very into killing all the wolves in Ireland and part of that even.... Like, so you even have the Irish rebels who would be to a certain degree, would be like, "Oh, we are the wolves. Like we are the people that they're trying to conquer," because it's like they are the unconquered, you know, wild folk, or whatever fucking bullshit colonial thing that gets thrown at them, you know? But at the same time, it's like.... So I'm kind of rooting for the wolves here with what you're describing, right? I like sheep. I don't specifically want the sheep to die. And where I live, we have coyotes, right. And we don't really have wolves where I live, but we have coyotes. And they kill, you know, they kill livestock. And they also kill dogs, right? And I have a dog. And I very actively want my dog to not be killed by coyotes. And apparently coyotes will do this thing where they'll befriend a dog, and be like, "yeah, totally, come hang out with us," and then kill and eat that dog, right? And so I have a neighbor who oversees about 400 acres. And he's from France. And he carries around a handgun. And he's so confused by this. He's like, "I came to America and now I have to carry around a handgun." But he carries around a handgun in case he's attacked by coyotes. Right? And it's like, interesting to me because it's like.... The urge to be like, "Oh, we should kill all the wolves so we can happily raise our sheep in peace," like fuck that, right? That, to me, is like the example of a negative form of peace, where you have conquered and like flattened everything. Sorry, it's a little bit of a rant, but I'm going somewhere with it. I promise. And then, but at the same time, there's this balance, right? Like, I'm not going to let a coyote kill my dog. Or if I was around wolves, I wouldn't let the wolves kill me, right? I mean, whatever I...as much as I can control that, you know? The coyotes are kind of on the other side of the hill. So I don't carry a gun around my property. But that would be a thing that I would need to consider in certain circumstances. So, it's just really interesting to me that, like, I get why the sheep farmers are like, "Oh, we got to get rid of all these wolves." But I'm also like, "Whatever. Fuck you. Let the wolves be." But then I'm also like, it's complicated. And I get why you have to defend the sheep. But I don't know. Anyway, that's where I'm going with it. I guess I wasn't going anywhere with it after all. **Sam ** 32:15 Yeah, no, I think it's a really complex situation. Yeah, there is not an easy answer to like kill the wolf or.... Yeah, I'm also pro Wolf. And there needs to be a different solution. And yeah, like to see what the sheepherders really face, what kind of struggles they face with this was really interesting. And also, I think the problem is that it's super instrumentalized [wonders if that's the right word]...instrumentalized by right-wing people politically.  **Margaret ** 32:55 Weaponized? [Offering a different word] **Amadeo ** 32:58 Yeah. In a way. I mean, the thing is, it also turned in Switzerland, for example, into a city versus countryside. Because at the vote, most people from the cities would vote for the wolf for what keeps the protection. But many people in the countryside, with also more like conservative political beliefs--and the conservative parties--said, "No, no, no, we have to change that because it threatens our way of living around in the remote areas in the countryside. And so this is somehow so stupid because.... **Sam ** 33:37 Yeah, that's also covering certain other threats, right, like climate change. They don't talk about climate change. The only thing they speak about is the wolf and the wolves. And yeah, that's really.... So it's somehow a weird thing that it's so taken over by this discourse, which is, yeah.... **Amadeo ** 33:57 Yeah, you can shoot climate change. That's the thing. It's easy to say, "Oh, it's all the wolf. We have to kill the wolf. And then we get rid of this problem." But on the other hand, climate change.... [interrupted] **Margaret ** 34:11 I can think of some ways to solve climate change with guns, but.... Anyway.... **Amadeo ** 34:16 I mean, I got so sad up there because it's so special. I mean, this area was a natural reserve too. And it has golden eagles. It has vultures, it has marmots, it has like.... **Sam ** 34:35 A lot of marmots. Everywhere. [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 34:38 And some protected bogs, some plants that are really like really rare, like at the brink of extinction. And I know, I stood there and I saw this, I don't know, this beauty and I know in 50 years from now it will be gone. Probably. It's very, very likely. Because.... I mean, some species can move.... Like, seen on a global level, they move north because it's getting warm. But on the on fucking mountain, there is an end. There is no moving more up. Because at 4000 meters or something, it's....stops, you know? Like there's nothing there. And all the farmers there, for example, if you ask them, they see these changes. They witness it. They say, "Yes, it's so much different than it was when I was a kid." And the glaciers, for example, in Switzerland--I read about it--there were since the 70s, 800 glaciers are gone. And there is still 1400 glaciers in Switzerland. And they say 2100 [year], they will be probably most of them, like 95%, will be gone. And it's so sad. But still, if you say something like, "Climate change," even those farmers there, that witness it every fucking day, they say like, "Well, you know, I don't know if you can call it that." It's ridiculous. And it's because the discourse, the political discourse, is framed by conservatives mostly. And they say, "Your problem is the wolf. We can shoot the wolf." So.... [Margaret starts talking and apologizes] No, no, it's, I'm, I'm done with ranting. **Margaret ** 36:40 No, this is so interesting for a thousand reasons. And one of them is that we always.... It goes back hundreds of years that leftists will be like, "Oh, the countryside are all right-wing. Fuck them." And this is not true, right? This is like.... The most interesting leftist revolutions have generally involved also the rural folks, right? I mean, like, famously, the fucking Russian Revolution was all rural people. And to be fair, Marx was.... I think he owned up to getting that wrong, because he was one of the people who started this myth that "The peasant is not the revolutionary subject, only the proletarian worker in the city is," right? "And the peasants are always reactionary." And I think he owned up to, when he looked at Russia, he was like, "Oh, I got that one wrong. Okay, cool." You know. It's true if we let it be true, because you have this thing where.... I think it is actually a flaw that we have to be careful with in democracy--and majority rule in general--is if people in the cities make the rules for the people in the countryside, and they don't understand the people in the countryside and they don't understand their way of life. And so it's like, really easy--even though I'm still on the wolf's side--I see it as complicated. Whereas it's like really easy to live in a city and be like, "Whatever. Fuck it," you know, because it's not their livelihood, or dog that is being threatened, right? And so I feel like, to me, it's this thing where we can't cede that ground to the right-wing, you know? And I really, I think it's cool that you all.... And that's one reason I want to talk to you about it is that there's like all of these.... It doesn't have to be this inherently conservative space to be in the countryside, to be in a rural area. And then the other thing that I was thinking about with what you're talking about, about mountains and how things retreat, is that mountains are so interesting to me because they're always where people run to, right? And you look at.... I mean, you look at Switzerland as a country and as the history of the country is people fleeing there in order to--well, I don't know enough about how Switzerland was formed--but in World War II, every time I'm like reading about Dutch revolutionaries, or whatever, they're like, "Fuck!" and they all run over to Switzerland and climb up the glaciers with their bare hands, or whatever the fuck. I don't know. I clearly know what I'm talking about. And in the United States, you have. where I live in Appalachia, that is the place that people would retreat to. That is the place where people losing wars against the conquest of the United States would go to. And it is. It's that weird thing where you're always free in the mountains, but there's only so far you can run. And that's just so heartbreaking to think about, you know? There's only so far up the mountain that these plants can migrate. On the other hand, I have a feeling that's what we're all going to be living. We're all gonna be in Antarctica. Antarctica bloomed this year, I think. I think we're being on Antarctica and on the mountains. So...  **Sam ** 39:39 Yeah, but it's interesting how it's idolized and romanticized. I mean, we had like...and how extreme, actually, the weather really changes. I really didn't know. I had never lived for three months so high up. And yeah, but also, they're so romanticized. There's this huge hype around survivalist shows, at the moment on TV, which is also really interesting and comes with this. And on the opposite for me the...Yeah, the question was how does being there in the Alps, what does this really change with me and what does it do to experience this? And yeah....  **Amadeo ** 40:20 Yeah, what does it do?  **Margaret ** 40:23 We're asking.   **Sam ** 40:23 It's still settling in. And it's about reconnecting and really realizing what it takes to do this work. And I have a lot of respect.... Also, to be in a very patriarchal space where the shepherds were only older men. Yeah, they have their ways of acting. They have their ways of being. And for me, this was really difficult. Yeah. And still, somehow to not say, "Hey, I won't enter this space," but to go there and.... Yeah, also see what community they have, you know. Yeah, to also go beyond this, I think, that they have their tradition and they have to face this, but yeah, it was also.... [Interrupted] **Amadeo ** 41:11 Maybe you can maybe explain a little bit this, I don't know, this group of people we worked for, because it was actually pretty interesting because it's a conservative area, but they were very working class and very, very nice to us. I think. They treated us really respectfully. And I know, in my other place where I worked as a shepherd, it wasn't like that. I was treated, actually, a little bad. And that's...I don't know. **Sam ** 41:45 Yeah. And to see how they are with the animals. I mean, for them, that's...they are their life. And it's this encounter.  **Amadeo ** 41:50 They love them. **Sam ** 41:51 And for us, to get to know every sheep personally, it's really interesting what connection you get. You watch them all the time. You learn, hey, they are totally different. They have totally different characters.  **Margaret ** 42:09 Yeah. Okay, my question to you is how do you, when you're working with people who are seeing this climate change happen, how do you--but but can't acknowledge it--do you have any insight or thoughts about how to connect with people about that, about how to talk to people, you know, who want to focus on the wolf instead of the bigger wolf, the climate wolf? What's the name of that wolf that's gonna eat the sun and Germanic paganism? Wow, how do I not remember that.  Anyway, whatever, at the start of Ragnarok. Someone's gonna get really mad at me for not knowing this. Fenrir! **Amadeo ** 42:51 I think we had some very good discussions at times. Right? With the guys.... Sorry? [Margaret interrupting] **Margaret ** 43:01 No, no, no, I was just...I remembered the name of the wolf that eats the sun and starts Ragnarok. It's Fenrir. Anyway, or Fenris? Oh, God, no people gonna get mad at me. Anyway, please continue. Tell you something.  **Amadeo ** 43:13 I think also, even though some of them were a little bit panicky about wolves, and so on, I think the system with the night pens and with having shepherds like us, since a few years, to look after the sheep, day and night, basically, it works pretty well. I mean, they told us they have one to five, maybe, sheep per year that are getting killed by the wolf. But that's okay. I mean, they're realistic about it, right? And when we talked about climate change, of course, it was--I mean, for me, it's not much different--I mean, they acknowledged that things are changing. They didn't use the, I don't know, scientific vocabulary or whatever. And they acknowledged in a way--or some of them at least--that there are new problems that we have to face. For example, it's too dry, and so on. Water issues.  Dying out of certain plants, animals in certain areas, and so on. They all see this. More avalanches in the winter. All of this. But, I mean, they were a little helpless. And I mean, we are also often a little helpless, because it's getting individualized. How should you react? Not drive a car? Great. I mean, we have to, you know, rise up and change all of the economy, you know, and this is hard to do. **Sam ** 44:53 But I guess, I mean, I also came there with my artistic background and as an artist and I also was filming a lot--more some of the sheeps but also us--and I think for me to show as someone coming there with a city background, but also with our backgrounds as biologists and artists, and showing how this encounter happens maybe from us as city people with also another perspective in encountering this world. I think I find this really interesting. Also showing some part of this being not exactly in this. I think that's an interesting perspective, also, for other people to see. And yeah, I'm probably cutting a bit of a movie out of this. And I think it can.... Yeah, it's good to go to this place and to show our perspective.  **Amadeo ** 45:53 I mean, I'm so grateful for what these people taught us, right, and that we were accepted and we did this job. And I think we did a good job. But also they trust us, right? **Sam ** 46:06 And what the sheep teach us.  **Amadeo ** 46:08 Yeah, the human and non-human individuals that trusted us. And it was, I think.... I'm very, very grateful. But on the other hand, also, for them, I think it was kind of interesting to have unorthodox people there, people who didn't grow up around the corner with animals, and sheep, and so on. Because for them, they all grew up with this. They inherited this from their parents and grandparents. And we came.... Actually it was a meeting of different worlds, right? We came....  **Sam ** 46:45 And I want to show this, also, this discrepancy that there is some dialog or some encounter that needs to happen. And I mean, many people are so disconnected to this world and don't know. They have lived in Switzerland all their life and they don't have so much connection to this work. Yeah. And it's cool to....  **Amadeo ** 47:05 I think, yeah, it was really...like we came from 1000 kilometers away. But even what made more of a difference was that we live in a city of 2 million people and they live in tiny mountain villages. But we came. We had a good time together, right? They were like helping us. We were helping them. It worked out. And I mean a lot of prejudicism, I had also, as a young radical from the city, dogmatic, and so on, about people back in the days. I mean, it changed over the years, but more and more when I encountered these, I don't know, social places, I have to say, yeah, they were very social with us and very helpful and very, I don't know, cool. Very cool also. Even though they have like strange habits like drinking coffee that isn't coffee but.... [Laughing] **Margaret ** 48:04 Wait, what do they drink that isn't coffee? **Amadeo ** 48:07 It's called Lupinion. It's made out of Lupin, I think. I don't know the English word, like some grain. And it has no caffeine at all. And they always say, "Let's have a coffee and then they drink this." **Sam ** 48:21 But with a lot of schnapps.  **Margaret ** 48:24 I don't drink caffeine. So I'm like, I want to drink that shit. That sounds great. **Sam ** 48:28 That would be the place for you to go.  **Amadeo ** 48:32 They put Apple booze inside like apple schnapps instead.  **Margaret ** 48:38 Okay, well, are there any last things that we didn't cover that you wish we had? Or things that you're really excited to say about sheep and climate change? Oh, does it make you want sheep? That's my...that was like the question. Like, are y'all gonna get sheep? Do you have a yard? I don't know where you live. **Amadeo ** 49:00 We live in the city. But we are planning to move in the coming years. And actually, I would love to have some sheep.  **Sam ** 49:10 Maybe not 400. **Amadeo ** 49:16 Some 20 or something? 15. **Sam ** 49:18 Or we will continue doing this work. It's cool to also work with them and then for a long time be with them. I guess we're.... And then also say, "Hey, gratz [congratulations], that was the summer." . And give them back. **Amadeo ** 49:35 Yeah, like sometimes it's nice to play with kids but having your own kids it's kind of a different cup of tea. **Sam ** 49:42 Like co-parenting. [Laughing] **Amadeo ** 49:45 Maybe some sheep co-parenting? Yeah. Right. **Margaret ** 49:51 Alright, well, is there anything that you want to plug, that you want to direct people towards, either your work or something else that's going on that you want to draw attention to.  **Amadeo ** 50:01 I wanted to say, because I always said while I was there, that it needs more people to help the little farmers deal with the wolves, because if we don't help them then they will always tend to the parties that say, "Oh, let's just get rid of the wolves." And I found out that there are some NGOs to do that, that come from an environmental side. There's one group called Au Pair. I think they're in the French speaking part of the country, mostly. And they actually sent volunteers to alpine pastures where there are wolves nearby, to help, to guard, and also monitor the wolf activities. So it's for research and also to help the farmers. And if I can't go next year to work as a shepherd, I will volunteer there. And I think it's a great, great thing and somehow a solution for how ordinary people can get in touch with the small farmers and help with maintaining the alpine pastures that are also so important for biodiversity. Yeah. And to help save the wolf from people. **Margaret ** 51:22 Yeah. No, that's so good. Because instead of just abandoning people to being like, "Whatever, the wolf is good and you suck," just being like, "Hey, what will it actually take? Like what resources do you actually need in order to be able to continue to do your work in a world full of wolves?" That's cool. **Amadeo ** 51:40 Yeah, I think it needs a lot of growing together, the countryside and the cities, in understanding and talking and like supporting each other. **Sam ** 51:51 Hey, thanks for having us, Margaret.  **Margaret ** 51:54 Yeah, thanks so much. And good luck next year with the sheep season. And I'll talk to y'all at some point soon I hope. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, go try to convince sheep and wolves to be friends. No, that's not going to work. Hang out with sheep and then separately hang out with wolves. Actually, you probably just shouldn't even hang out with the wolves. You should probably leave them alone. That's pretty much what we want. But that's what you can do. You can also support this podcast. You can support this podcast happening by helping us pay our transcribers and our audio editors. I say this is if there's a plural of each, but there's actually one of each. And thanks to those editors. And thanks to everyone who helps us do that. And the way we do that is through Patreon. This podcast is published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have several other podcasts, including one called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, as well as one called Anarcho Geek Power Hour. And if you support us on Patreon, we'll send you a monthly feature that we put out. We'll send it anywhere in the world. And if you pay us $20 a month, I'll read your name out right now. In particular, I'd like to thank Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milaca, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Machaiah, and of course, Hoss the Dog. I hope everyone is doing as well as you can and don't let the people divide us along cultural lines because we just shouldn't let that happen. Talk to you all soon.

Episode Summary This time on This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke and Inmn talk about revenge, strikes, bad decisions about water, the economy, interesting victories around water, and funny things about tanks. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: This Month in the Apocalypse: October **Brooke ** 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This is your monthly installment of This Month in the Apocalypse, where we talk about the shitty news from around the world. **Inmn ** 00:28 But also some cool stuff. and some funny stuff. **Brooke ** 00:32 And some funny stuff. I am one of your hosts today, Brooke, and with me is.... **Inmn ** 00:40 I'm Inmn and my brain is in a horrifying state today, which only comes from researching heavily about, unfortunately, mostly bad things that happened but also some cool things that happened in the last month. **Brooke ** 00:58 Alright, let's talk about those. But first, let's give a shout out to one of the other podcasts on the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts to which we also belong. But here's some words from some of our friends. Doot doot doo duh doo doo dooo. [Singing the sounds like a simple melody] **Brooke ** 01:54 And we're back. Welcome back. So many fun things to talk about. I'm sorry you've also had to spend the morning reviewing all sorts of terrible events in the world. **Inmn ** 02:30 You know, I ran into a friend last night and they made a joke, they were like, "Oh, what have you been up to?" And I was like, "Oh, I dunno, mostly just work, you know, doing podcasts and things." And they're like, "Oh, yeah, you've you've really like professionalized doom scrolling. [Both laughing] **Brooke ** 02:54 Yeah, that sounds about right. Sounds about right. **Inmn ** 02:59 Yeah, I don't know if I felt good about that or not, but.... **Brooke ** 03:04 It's complicated, right? Like, I don't want that to be my job. But also, I guess it's nice that somebody does it. **Inmn ** 03:11 Yeah. And I just want to shout out for like a lot of people who have sent us messages fairly recently about enjoying these segments, which I think we were on the fence about them for a little while, I think, about whether we liked them or whether they felt useful or whether they just like inspired dread and despair and a lot of.... Thanks everyone who's reached out to be like, "No, no, I really like these segments, and they do the opposite of despair." So thank you, everyone. **Brooke ** 03:46 Yeah, I've got something that's the opposite of despair. **Inmn ** 03:49 Oh, really? What is the opposite of despair? **Brooke ** 03:53 Revenge travel. **Inmn ** 03:55 Oh? **Brooke ** 03:56 Do you know what this is? **Inmn ** 03:58 No, I have no idea what you're... **Brooke ** 04:00 Okay. So if I say the phrase to you, revenge travel, what do you assume? Like what would you guess that I'm talking about? **Inmn ** 04:08 Um, I think what my assumption is--I feel like it is related to remote work. Is it related to remote work? **Brooke ** 04:18 No, it's not. **Inmn ** 04:20 Okay. I have no idea what it is then. **Brooke ** 04:23 Okay. I saw it in the headline. And then of course, it was wonderful clickbait and I had to click on it. And I assumed it meant traveling to get revenge on somebody. Either like taking a trip to spite them or like, going somewhere to exact revenge. I don't know. Like, I've never heard this phrase before. But apparently, it's travel that people have done since covid because they weren't able to travel during the worst of the pandemic. **Inmn ** 04:23 Okay, I see. **Brooke ** 04:27 I know, it's way less exciting. And like the article that I read about it mentioned revenge travel multiple times but it never specifically explains it. I had to like glean that from the rest of the text of the article. So it's not the fun thing that you think it is but maybe we should make it a fun thing. Revenge travel. **Inmn ** 05:15 Oh, okay, so now that you say that, the thing that it reminds me of is--which I'm totally guilty of--have you heard of bedtime revenge procrastination? I think that's what it's called. **Brooke ** 05:31 I can guess what you mean, but I have not heard of it. **Inmn ** 05:36 Bedtime revenge procrastination is when you stay up late even though you have to wake up very early because.... It's due to a sense of lack of control over the autonomy of your time. It's called bedtime revenge, meaning that you're revenging yourself upon time, but the cost is still your time and energy because, you know, you get less sleep. **Brooke ** 06:08 I psychologically understand that, you know, resting control thing, but at the same time I'm a person who really needs my full night of sleep consistently or else I quickly deteriorate and also become a horrible human being so I also can't imagine doing that to myself. Because that sounds awful. **Inmn ** 06:27 Yeah, I did it to myself for like the entirety of high school because I had an absolutely unreasonable schedule. Like, I got on average five to four hours of sleep a night for like the entirety of highschool. **Brooke ** 06:46 Wow, I feel bad for young Inmn. **Inmn ** 06:49 Me too. **Brooke ** 06:50 Sorry, you did that to yourself. Okay, well let me finish saying this about revenge travel. It's nothing major, mostly the headline's hilarious and the phrase. But there was a huge boom in travel and 2022 as covid restrictions eased and people were able to travel again. So, they were taking their, I guess, revenge against covid, maybe, is what they were taking revenge on? Or just revenge on not being able to travel. Anyway. And that continued to get into 2023. But the boom seems to have slowed and we're kind of back to more normal pre pandemic levels, especially places that do surveys of consumer demand to figure out, you know, people's intentions to travel and their plans for it. And people are sort of back to normal, i.e. pre pandemic levels of intention to travel, so. **Inmn ** 07:39 Okay, golly, can I do a little mini rant about that? I'm replacing Margaret's rants today. **Brooke ** 07:50 Okay, good. What would this episode be without a rant or two? **Inmn ** 07:57 It's just like the.... I don't know, like I remember after, you know, like the summer in the northern hemisphere after mass vaccination occurred and people feeling like they could move around, travel, and do a lot more in what felt like a safer way to do that. And I don't think--this isn't targeted revenge travel as much as it's targeted at a lot of people's mentalities throughout COVID were like being upset at like things the government or being upset at like society for making them like be cooped up in their houses or whatever, or making them have these like lower modes of travel. And it felt really weird to hear it from a lot of people, like people who were like, really angry about it. And it's like, I get it, it was hard, and it sucked for a lot of people but like, I don't know.... I remember when lock down started that I was like--you know, I'm never thrilled for a government imposed lockdown--but what I was thrilled for, I was like, people just have the chance to like--or, you know, some people--just have the chance to chill a little bit and have some space from their lives. But like, I'm not upset that we were doing the right thing by slowing down. You know? **Brooke ** 09:39 I feel like in that first couple of weeks too, you know, there was at least a couple of weeks that pretty much everyone stopped doing everything and we all got to slow down for a minute. And there was something special in that time before all of the, you know, rage and conflict and conspiracies and everything blew up. But there was a brief moment, I think, for pretty much everyone. Maybe a little bit horrible but also special. **Inmn ** 10:00 Yeah. And, you know, obviously it's way more complicated than that, but I'm like, I'm never upset that like, yeah, it was a hard year and a half and it continues to be really hard for so many people and I'm thrilled to have been doing the right thing. **Brooke ** 10:25 Yeah, for sure. No, I hear you. **Inmn ** 10:28 Anyways, you know, who doesn't do the right thing? **Brooke ** 10:32 Oh, boy. Do you want a list? Should I? Or should I just do a whole rant here on? Maybe you should just tell me. There's too many options. **Inmn ** 10:43 Okay, so, hypothetical situation, you're faced with a problem. So here in Arizona, **Brooke ** 10:51 Who you gonna call? **Inmn ** 10:55 Here in Arizona, there are weirdly not that many regulations around groundwater usage and stuff. **Brooke ** 11:04 That's wild to me. **Inmn ** 11:05 It really is wild. But, if you lived in a town that had halted new construction, new development, but you really wanted to build a mega city, what would you do? **Brooke ** 11:24 Oh god, I'm a billionaire, aren't I? Aren't I? I'm a billionaire in this scenario. **Inmn ** 11:30 In this scenario, no, you are actually not a billionaire. Although, there's a weirdly similar thing happening with a billionaire. **Brooke ** 11:39 Okay, well, then I would do the right thing if I'm not corrupted by having way too much money. **Inmn ** 11:45 Okay, would you but would you consider building a 1000 mile pipeline to the Missouri River? **Brooke ** 11:53 Oh, fuck. No, because? No, no. [Laughing] **Inmn ** 12:00 Or would you... **Brooke ** 12:01 Water is sacred. It should not be forced to travel like that. That's wrong. **Inmn ** 12:08 Okay, so your other alternative is to build a 200 mile pipeline? **Brooke ** 12:13 Nope. **Inmn ** 12:14 To the Gulf of California. **Brooke ** 12:16 Nope. It's also not.... The water's not supposed to travel that far. We go to the water. The water is not supposed to be made to come to us. That's how it works. **Inmn ** 12:28 I'm waiting for a Qanon person to comment, What about rivers?" [An uncomfortable silence].... Anyways, so the town is... **Brooke ** 12:31 I'm just going to sigh in anger and sadness for a while. I'm gonna mute myself and just sigh for an hour while you explain. [Audibly sighs] **Inmn ** 12:50 Okay, so this is where normally a rant about the city of Phoenix would occur. But this is a rant about a city that is literally adjacent to Phoenix, which some would argue is actually a part of Phoenix, but is really hell bent on not being a part of Phoenix because they want to be their own mega city. And this is the city of Buckeye, Arizona. And Buckeye, it's basically a suburb of Phoenix and they hope.... Their population's like, I think it's like 170,000 right now. And they aspire to grow the population to over 1.5 million, which is about what the population of Phoenix is. **Brooke ** 13:43 I was gonna say, that's a lot of people. **Inmn ** 13:47 Yeah. Yeah. And it seems to be just because the local politicians and city council, or whatever, want to be like big deals. Like they just want... **Brooke ** 14:01 I'm sorry, if your city is called Buckeye, I think there's not hope for you. You need to start by rebranding the name of your city if you want just a chance in hell. But Buckeye, Arizona, I think is never going to be No, just the name, just that's it. It falls flat on its face on the name. **Inmn ** 14:20 Yeah, but they, for some reason, want to grow their city. I think it seems to be wrapped up in like those local politicians wanting to be big deals. **Brooke ** 14:29 Capitalism and ego. **Inmn ** 14:31 Yeah, but they can't. They're.... So the state has kind of halted construction, like new construction, or new development, in those areas because the groundwater use has hit a limit. And this comes after some developments in Phoenix were halted because of a lack of water security. So, there's very little regulation about groundwater in Arizona, but there is this thing where water has to be guaranteed for 100 years in order to build a new house, for example. So like if a new housing development is going up then water has to be guaranteed to be at that house for 100 years. **Brooke ** 15:17 That sounds great, but I have a lot of follow up questions for Phoenix and Arizona and how that actually maths out. But do go on. **Inmn ** 15:24 Yeah, yeah. I mean, how it maths out is that, you know, Phoenix heavily relies on the Colorado River for water usage. And the city of Phoenix--which to put in proportion to what the city of Buckeye is aspiring to do--is the city of Phoenix uses about 2 billion gallons of water a day. Like a new fun thing--because the more that we talk about water on the show, the more I'm like trying to visualize what water looks like--what do you think 2 billion gallons of water looks like? **Brooke ** 15:25 I'm trying to imagine some body of water that I am familiar with in order to conceptualize that and I'm wondering how big Crater Lake is because that's maybe.... Wait, wait, well, wait while I inefficiently Google things. Okay, that's way too much water. Okay. Tell me. I can't. **Inmn ** 16:37 It is one inch on Lake Mead. One inch of water is 2 billion gallons of water. **Brooke ** 16:43 Okay, I don't have a good reference for how big Lake Mead is but I hear you. **Inmn ** 16:47 Yeah, you know, that lake that everyone references when we're talking about water scarcity in the West is the constant depletion of Lake Mead. It's weird how that has become the gauge, it's like our gauge for fear and disparity is what the water levels in Lake Mead are. But do you want to know a fun thing about Lake Mead? **Brooke ** 17:13 I do. **Inmn ** 17:14 Um, Lake Mead, the water has.... There was like this crazy low point in 2022. And this is actually a fun thing, but the lake has risen 23 feet since that low point in 2022. **Brooke ** 17:29 I mean that's normal, right, because of the season that we're in? **Inmn ** 17:33 Yeah, yeah. And after like, you know, a recent pretty dry spell this summer, in August, due to record snowfall, I guess the previous winter, the lake rose 13 inches in seven days. Which, is like, you know, 27 billion gallons of water sounds like a lot. **Brooke ** 17:58 Yeah, that sounds a lot. Like a lot, a lot. **Inmn ** 18:03 But to like put that.... 27 billion. **Brooke ** 18:07 Like a foot and stuff? No, two billion is one inch? Is that right? **Inmn ** 18:13 Yeah, two billion's one inch. **Brooke ** 18:14 And 13 inches, a foot. A footish? **Inmn ** 18:17 Yeah, right. A footish. Which is only like seven days of water for the city of Phoenix. **Brooke ** 18:24 [Laughing] Okay, I'm like a foot of water in the lake is a lot. And then yeah, you say.... Just kidding! Do go on. **Inmn ** 18:38 No, yeah. Sorry. The city of Buckeye story is jumping all over the place. But in one of the more weird moves that they're considering is they want to build a pipeline from Puerto Penasco in Mexico to Phoenix, which it's about a 200 mile pipeline that would be built. And it would go right through the Organ Pipe National Cactus Monument. **Brooke ** 19:12 No big deal. National monuments, no big deal. **Inmn ** 19:20 But this is being heavily pushed for not just by the city of Buckeye but by a contractor company called IDE, which is an Israeli company, who thinks it's a really great idea to build this 200 mile pipeline between Puerto Penasco and the city of Buckeye. And it's part of this like growing, seemingly growing, trend of instead of like, instead of dealing with water resources on a, you know, a local level, or any kind of resource, on a local level, we're in this age of industrialization of like, "Well, they have this other resource 1000 miles away or whatever, what if we move to that resource so that we can sustain this absolutely unreasonable population growth in...." And not like a natural population growth. Like the city of Buckeye is like, "We want to grow the population." This is not what the city's naturally doing, you know? **Brooke ** 20:29 So they're bringing in water to support and.... You know, sorry, I want to go off on a whole side tangent because I have many questions about Buckeye, but I'm going to stop and we can talk about it another time. Sorry, I'm just so curious. **Inmn ** 20:44 But yeah, so some of the bigger problems with the pipeline are that it would.... They don't have a plan for dealing with...the desalination plants, they don't have a plan for dealing with the salty material that they remove from the water, except to dump it back into the Gulf of California. **Brooke ** 21:09 Oh, my God. **Inmn ** 21:11 You know, people in Mexico are not stoked about this because it will destroy ecological centers in the Gulf of California. Oh, okay. I remember the other bit. So IDE, the Israeli company that's building...who wants to build the pipeline, they also build desalination plants in Gaza. **Brooke ** 21:32 And that's where the money is. **Inmn ** 21:38 And yeah, it's just...it's a very strange idea. They want to put it through the Organ Pipe National Monument, which, like, there's a lot of pushback because that's a national monument. It's this federally protected wildlife area. And there's a lot of pushback from an environmental perspective. Do you know what else is in the Organ Pipe National Monument? **Brooke ** 22:05 Besides the cacti? **Inmn ** 22:07 Yeah. **Brooke ** 22:08 Let's see. Are there birds? Flowers? **Inmn ** 22:10 What is a great thing to have near a federally protected wildlife area? **Brooke ** 22:18 Oh, wildlife that needs special protection? **Inmn ** 22:22 A bombing range. **Brooke ** 22:23 Oh, shit! I see. You were being sarcastic. Here, silly me. I was trying to guess the real answer. **Inmn ** 22:35 Yeah, It is a bombing range. **Brooke ** 22:38 Of course. Of course it is. Yes. That's what Arizona's for is blowing shit up. **Inmn ** 22:44 Yeah, blowing shit up. And.... **Brooke ** 22:49 I just saw Oppenheimer, sorry. **Inmn ** 22:51 Okay. It only gets worse because the other thing that goes on in the Organ National Monument is that it's like a heavily trafficked corridor for migration between the US and Mexico for, you know, for animals and for people. And it is also one of the most deadly corridors along the US Mexico border for undocumented migrants coming from Mexico, South America, Central America, like up through Mexico and the US Mexico border. And so it represents this strange thing where the government, or people, or like whoever, they have large problems with things like a pipeline going through somewhere, but they have--and Organ Pipe National Monument as like an agency--has no problem with ramping border militarization or a bombing range that's like right next door. So. **Brooke ** 24:00 Man, I will never make sense of people's priorities. **Inmn ** 24:05 Anyways, that is a very long rant on city of Buckeye, **Brooke ** 24:10 That's more attention than Buckeye deserves, ever. But here we are. **Inmn ** 24:17 What else is happening in the southwest? There's some stuff that happened in Vegas. **Brooke ** 24:23 That's right. There's some looming...there's a looming strike in the hospitality industry in Vegas. I don't know how well known this is amongst people but Vegas has a very strong union for various hospitality workers. It might be multiple unions. Forgive me for not knowing exactly. But your housekeeping workers, your bartenders, your food servers, all of those service industries that are so central to the hospitality industry, which is central to the economy of Vegas, and a lot of Nevada, have very strong unions there that do a great job representing them and getting them fair wages and those kinds of things. So one of the major contracts expired in June of this year, 2023, so negotiations for new contracts started back in April. They did not reach an agreement in June. So they extended the contract deadline to September and that has now expired, and they are still negotiating. But the union has voted to authorize a strike if necessary. The union is asking for higher wages, more safety protections, and stronger recall rights, meaning rights to return to their work. So on the issue of safety for the union's, abuse of hospitality workers is on the rise in the US and particularly in Vegas. And I like to think that all of our listeners are the kind of folks who have had a service industry job at some point in their lives and would never ever throw something at a housekeeper. **Inmn ** 26:10 Oh, God. **Brooke ** 26:11 But, you know, just in case it needs to be said, If your room is really dirty and you're upset about it, don't throw things at the housekeeper who's just trying to clean. It's not...it's not a great way to go. **Inmn ** 26:23 Yeah, don't do that. **Brooke ** 26:27 Yeah, there's increasing reports of housekeepers getting yelled at, having things thrown at them, being threatened with abuse. Because there are--it's a complicated thing--so this also ties into the recall rights that they're asking for. Hotel workers, hospitality workers, saw significant decline in the number of people doing those jobs during the pandemic, partly because there was significantly less travel and then also restrictions on how many people you could book on a floor or in a hotel, or etc, etc, etc. So, hotels, you know, laid off a lot of their workers. And then, like many other places, have had a hard time rehiring. So they're not back up to the staffing levels that they used to be. So there's fewer people spread around, you know, a wider workload. And then part of that, the reason for the lack of rehiring, was because they didn't have recall rights. So, there was no reason for people to assume that they would be able to go back to their jobs or get their jobs back. So they, you know, left...stayed or left the industry or what have you. So, there's fewer workers to do the work, especially cleaning work. And then also, consumers are demanding less frequent cleanings for the most part in their hotel rooms. I don't know about you, when you travel, or the last time you went to a hotel, I am the kind of person that does not want housekeeping at all during my stay, whether it's one day or five days. I put out my Do Not Disturb sign. And I guess that's true of about 40% of hotel guests, they choose not to have housekeeping. The downside of that is that when housekeeping does come in after someone's left, the rooms are usually messier than they would be if they had a daily cleaning so housekeeping asked to do a deeper clean and they don't necessarily have--because they're short staffed, and it's a deeper play than they would plan for--they don't have the time to really turn over the room as thoroughly as they should. That difficult contrast between trying to get all the rooms at least a little bit versus doing a few rooms and doing them well and then not having some rooms. Yeah. So that's the other thing, if you're a person like me out there in the world and and you're staying at a hotel and you don't like to have housekeeping, do try and do them the kindness of whatever bits of cleanup you can on the way out so it's faster for them to turn over the room. Anyway, so they are continuing negotiations, but the union has...the union workers have authorized a strike or intermittent work stoppages if needed, and, you know, we fully support them doing that if that's what they need to do. Yeah, yeah, they would not be the only ones that have done that even in the last year or even super recently. Kaiser Permanente, you may have heard about this, had a three day walkout at all of their locations, appointments canceled. That kind of thing. So the Kaiser Permanente Health care workers went on strike and they've reached a tentative deal. And also somewhat recently, but a little bit longer ago, was the Writer's Union in Hollywood went on strike. And they were on strike for quite a bit. But they are back to work, having gotten a lot of what they wanted. The United Auto Workers Union is in negotiations for contracts with the major....sorry, with the major car manufacturers in the US. They have had some work stoppages throughout the negotiation process and may have a full stoppage or full strike at some point as well. So, yeah, lots of worker strikes going on, or have gone on and have been successful, in recent times and we support those workers, not only in their right to strike, but also in treating them well when we are traveling. And encouraging others to do the same. **Inmn ** 31:03 This kind of relates to my mini rant earlier about, like, you know, things shutting down or being less available, which is like, one of the really cool things that I saw out of the Writers' Guild strike was people whose like, you know,--whether it was talk show hosts, or like, whoever, who were like, during the strike, and then like, after the strike, are like, "Yeah, it was hard to not do the show for however long, but like, what is far worse and much harder, is that these very simple demands were not met before the strike or on day one of the strike." And like, I don't know, just like...it's like shifting this mentality from like, I'm sad that the new season of Stranger Things is on hiatus with that these strikes are very important and these people's lives matter and them getting the things that make them able to continue doing their work and surviving is like, incredibly important. And that's more important than my desire to see a fucking TV show, you know? **Brooke ** 32:24 Yeah, and it was really great to see, you know, a lot of actors and so forth, who weren't necessarily striking but were standing in support of, you know, their fellow Hollywood workers going on strike and getting their demands met. It was really cool. **Inmn ** 32:41 Yeah. Is there some other stuff that got shut down recently? **Brooke ** 32:46 No, the government talked about it, like they do. **Inmn ** 32:51 They always talk about it. **Brooke ** 32:54 Yeah, and we talked about this last month, and we said, hey, if it happens, we will follow up and talk more. At the last minute a continuing resolution was passed right before the deadline of when the government would have shut down. And I'm being overdramatic, because it's fucking every single time, basically, with very few exceptions. The downside of the continuing resolution form of passing a budget is that it's basically like buying them another 30 days, or however long the continuing resolution was for. So they still haven't passed a budget. They've just agreed to continue operating based on the old budget for a limited period of time. And I think their next deadline, I want to say, is mid November or so. The whole situation is complicated a little bit by the fact that they outed...the Republicans outed their speaker of the house. They don't have one. But they did pass this continuing resolution without having a speaker. So it is possible, it's just that they're dealing with the other chaos of trying to elect a new speaker and they have, at least, their fourth person that they put up for a vote, is up for vote. So they're focusing on that a lot rather than dealing with the budget issues they need to deal with. So I still, you know, I continue to say the same thing that I have said about this, which is that the government shutdown is very unlikely. If it does, it's likely very short. And even if it is very short, it probably won't affect very much because they have plans and programs set up to automate a lot of their stuff for at least a short period of time. It's only a major problem if there's a longer term shutdown like we saw back in 2019, which is very unlikely. And if it happens, we'll talk about it. **Inmn ** 34:48 Yay, talking about stuff. **Brooke ** 34:52 So that's about them not shutting down. I hear you have some good news, though, that we can talk about. **Inmn ** 35:00 I do have some good news. But I kind of have like a question about the economy for you while we're like on the subject, **Brooke ** 35:11 Give it to me, baby, you know I love talking about economics. **Inmn ** 35:14 I read this article this week about this growing trend, which is not surprising to me because it's like seeing...because it's something that a lot of us are just seeing in the world, but--or experiencing ourselves, depending on where you live. But there seems to be this big growing trend in large cities, especially like, you know, the Bay area where there's been a huge, huge housing crisis for a very long time, which is driven by the tech industry being horrifying. Um, but I read this article recently talking about this thing where it has reached such a crisis that cities like Santa Barbara, and like some cities in Oregon, have opened up parking lots that are there for people who live in their cars. And it's catering to like a very specific like demographic of people, which is like people who make too much money to apply for government assistance, like housing assistance, food assistance, anything like that, or even Medicaid or Medicare--I always forget which is which--but they do not make enough money to afford rent. And it's this growing thing in the economy where like, like.... And these are people who make like $72,000 a year at government or state jobs who can no longer afford to live somewhere. And so they have to live in their car. And that is, yeah.... That's less of a question and more of a what's going on? What's going on? **Brooke ** 37:20 Yeah, that level of problem where someone is making that much and still can't afford is definitely more specific to larger cities and places where housing costs are significantly higher. And housing is expensive everywhere right now. It's out of control. But you do have some places like the Bay Area, LA, parts of Seattle, where it is just ridiculously inflated. So yeah, making $70,000 a year is definitely way too much money to be getting any kind of assistance. You're well above the poverty line, even in your allegedly high income area, but it's nowhere near enough to afford a housing payment for how much houses cost right now. And I think there's always been some amount of people that live in that strange margin place of above the poverty line, can get little or no assistance but below what it takes to afford where they're living. That's not an entirely new phenomenon. But it's definitely much larger than it used to be. You know, because we've seen this astronomical increase in the house of pricing...in the price of housing. And inflation, overall, has increased the price of a lot of other things as well making it harder to afford all aspects of life and living. **Inmn ** 38:47 Yeah, and, you know, it's like this.... It's the thing where it's horrible to me that it's something that people are paying attention to now that it's something that is affecting middle class people. Where it's like this, you know, this has been a lot of people's like realities for, you know, decades and decades, is living in this nebulous zone of like, for whatever reasons, not qualifying for government assistance or for qualifying for government assistance but that assistance not being enough to actually change anyone's life or get them housing or things like that. And that's more what interested me about the article, was like less than that this is like a newer growing thing and more that it's something that is starting to shift up the wage scales and stuff, from something that has always affected lower income people and is now starting to affect people who like would have not considered themselves low income before. **Brooke ** 40:01 Yeah, the poverty line, what the government defines as being, you know, what they call the poverty line and then they use that to measure, you know, how far above or below it you are and then different services say you qualify based on your income relative to that position, that poverty line does not change rapidly. The government does not make big changes to that. They make very small changes to that. But meanwhile, we've seen in the last few years very rapid changes to the cost of living. And it costs so much more for so many basic things right now but that has not been accurately reflected in a higher poverty line, particularly with houses. **Inmn ** 40:42 And wages. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like my hope for articles like this are more hoping that it like increases the amount of empathy and compassion that like more people have for other houseless populations. Which it sucks that it takes.... It sucks that that's what it takes for people to have empathy, but we live in a hell world. **Brooke ** 41:18 Yeah, we do. **Inmn ** 41:19 But you know, sometimes in this hell world that we live in, cool things can happen too. **Brooke ** 41:27 Are there wins sometimes? **Inmn ** 41:28 There are wins sometimes. **Brooke ** 41:31 Like union workers winning and also...other things winning. What are they? Give me hope. **Inmn ** 41:36 Hope. So this was a fun thing that I came across this month. And this has been less like this month and more like a thing that's been happening for over two years. So in 2021, in O'ahu, in Hawaii, there was a fuel leak from, you know, naval bases. **Brooke ** 42:02 Wait, I was there in 2021. **Inmn ** 42:05 Oh, yeah. Well, depending on where you were 93,000 people had jet fuel laced water introduced into their homes and their water drinking supplies. **Brooke ** 42:22 I feel like I would have known that when I was on my little vacation there, if that was when I was there. But damn. **Inmn ** 42:28 Yeah, the symptoms for ingesting it were people having migraines and nausea and vomiting. And while for a lot of people, those were short term symptoms, for like huge amounts of the people who were affected by it, a year and a half to two years later people are still experiencing symptoms and complications from having ingested jet fuel laced water. And some of those symptoms include severe anxiety and depression. **Brooke ** 43:08 Maybe I did ingest some. Wait, I already had those symptoms, but they're worse. Okay, go on. **Inmn ** 43:14 Yeah. And this sounds like it's grim, but there was recently a victory, which is that this initiative led by, I think it was like the Sierra Club and O'ahu Water Protectors have been waging this battle against the US military to drain these fuel reservoirs, which it's like miles of tunnels underneath O'ahu that are like filled with jet fuel, you know? So it's like the possibility of leaks are just astronomical. Like, it's so easy for it to...for that shit to leak. **Brooke ** 43:55 I'm gonna guess they were rapidly built in World War II or something like that as well. **Inmn ** 43:59 Yes, they are World War II era jet fuel tanks. That after like an extreme period of inactivity are finally being drained. And this this was a quotation from someone from the O'ahu Water Protectors, who said, "We got here not because the US Navy woke up one day and said, 'Oh, we're gonna do the right thing,' we got here because of the collective voices of the people who are calling for a shutdown." Which is like, you know, time and time again, the thing that we find in these situations, is like if there's an environmental catastrophe that is also a human catastrophe, it's like...it's not...the government isn't like, "That's bad. We should do something." It takes like it takes thousands of people for two years like screaming and yelling at people and fighting for a change. And this is like...you might think too, that people exposed to jet fuel laced water who are having like pretty severe reactions to those things, that the local government might offer--or the US military--might offer some kind of help with that immediately, you know? **Brooke ** 45:27 No, come on now. **Inmn ** 45:29 It took a year and a half for the Navy to set up a clinic to treat people who had been exposed to these chemicals. And, you know, it is 100 million gallons of petroleum. **Brooke ** 45:47 Holy shit, **Inmn ** 45:50 That is sitting in these tanks. That wasn't the size of the leak, but like.... And like, yeah, two years later residents are having their water in their houses tested. Because a lot of people's houses weren't flushed, the system wasn't flushed. It was never really dealt with. And so like two years later there's these low but persistent traces of these chemicals in people's water. But hopefully, that is.... At least the larger threat of another leak is hopefully not going to happen because of this victory from indigenous water protectors in O'ahu to like, get the fuel tanks drained. And unfortunately, you know, they're not just like.... I'm happy for O'ahu, but they're just moving the fuel to Singapore, the Philippines, and San Diego. So. **Brooke ** 46:51 So, yeah, it's just gonna spill somewhere else. I mean, what do you do though? Is there a safe way to dispose of it? Probably not. Use it up, create more carbon emissions? I mean, yeah, lose-lose. Lose, lose, lose. Pour it down a volcano? What could go wrong? Pour jet fuel into a volcano, I'm sure that'll be fine. I do. I just want to say I never trust the federal government when it comes to drinking water and people. I just don't. That's one of those important things that we, you know, as we live like the world is dying here, that we all have to prepare for and plan for on our own and collectively. Do not ever trust the government to keep your water supply safe and consistent. It's just not going to happen. **Inmn ** 47:47 Nope. Yeah, we protect us. It turns out. **Brooke ** 47:53 Turns out. Alright, other water things: El Nino. So this is funny to me--I'll tell the shortest version of the story that I possibly can--when I was growing up, there were heavy rains in 1996, in the town that I--well, not just the town but this whole occupied Kalapuya territory that I live in, suffered from extreme rainfall. It's the Pacific Northwest, so we have a lot of rain anyway, so when I tell you there was extreme rainfall, that tells you something about how much rain there was. And lots of flooding, lots of water damage. There was a point when it rained for, I don't know, like, I think it was 16 days straight or something like that. Just...anyway. And it was ascribed to El Nino weather events. And so for most of my life until like the last few years, you say El Nino and I think lots of rain. That's all I understood about the El Nino weather events. But we've been talking a lot about it this year because globally, we have been in one since the springtime. And it actually has to do with water temperatures in the Pacific and airflow and stuff. And actually has very diverse effects on weather patterns around the world, really, especially right now in North America and parts of Europe, too. So we may be heading into a winter that is colder for some and warmer for others. And it was really funny in reading the reports on this that came out from NOAA and then were disseminated by others with input from this or that meteorologists, climatologists, whatever, about what was going on. And it's...you look at the maps and it's like, "Oh, the northern US is going to be much warmer or it's going to be slightly warmer. It's going to be in the Northeast. No, it's going to be the Northwest. The southern US is going to be colder in the southeast. No, in the southwest. No, actually it's going to be close to average. So all that I'm really getting from any of this as I read multiple sources is that we really don't quite know what the winter is gonna be like. No one is being consistent. And we're also in the middle of...we still have a polar vortex that's pushing cold air down from the Arctic. But also average temperatures are on the rise globally because of climate change. And this year, we're higher than average for much of the year. So all of that is to say, who knows what winter weather is going to do? Whatever winter weather prediction you've read, it might come true. But there's another one out there that will say the opposite thing. And, you know, who knows? **Inmn ** 50:36 Golly, yeah, **Brooke ** 50:39 Just funny things. So many headlines about it. And then they're all being totally contradictory. Yeah. Except that possibly, the central so-called United States of America--not like what we call the central US but if you literally draw a swath through the middle of the country--that seems to be consistently predicted to have roughly normal winter temperatures. So Kansas...Kansas, everything is probably going to be normal for you and maybe Colorado too. I don't know about the rest of us. **Inmn ** 51:14 Hell yeah. I'm excited. **Brooke ** 51:17 Isn't that great? **Inmn ** 51:18 It is. To kind of get towards the end of the episode, I did remember this other thing that I wanted to tie in, which was we talked a little bit about like border militarization and like how that relates to this water pipeline, and this is in no way a new thing but like just to build this larger linkage. So, I, you know, I live here in Arizona and like border militarization is absolutely ridiculous. It's terrifying. And I was thinking about this thing that I've encountered a lot. And people who live here have encountered a lot, which I realized a lot of other people might not know about, which is that one of the big defense contractors that the US military uses here in Arizona is Elbit Technologies, which is this Israeli defense company. They designed shit for the IDF. And they, you know, a long time ago at this point, they started to build this virtual wall here in Arizona. And it's this...it's this series of fixed towers that build this AI controlled map of the entire border in Arizona. And the development on this is that we used to, in doing humanitarian aid work out in the desert,we used to joke that the towers that monitor infrared and shit would get set off by a cow or a hot rock or something. And since the development of AI technology, that's shifting. So they are now plugging into these monitors a lot of AI technology. And I think the effectiveness of it, which like at different points was laughable, is going to change a lot soon. **Brooke ** 53:41 Okay, that's a lot. **Inmn ** 53:43 Yeah, it is. It's just wacky and terrifying. And it's like a thing that's being felt especially by people on the Tohono O'odham Nation who have these towers completely covering the reservation. And, that makes people who.... You know, these are people who also faced large amounts of government repressio, becoming fearful to leave their homes and shit. Because they're like, "Well, I can't go to that place that I normally go to. Because all those towers are there now." All of this is to connect this thing that we aren't.... We're not going to talk a whole lot about it, but as I'm sure everyone knows, Israel recently invaded Gaza and.... Or, you know, their continued invasion of Gaza has reached new and horrifying levels. And, we're not going to talk about it too much, or we didn't cover it too much, because there's so much information. And there are a lot of really great sources to get a lot more information than we can responsibly provide on a segment on this show. I have been reading stuff from Jewish Currents and I've been reading some stuff from the Palestinian Youth Movement. And those have been really awesome places to see more like.... Like if you want updated timelines and things like that of events, or like ways to support people in Palestine through this genocide then highly recommend people like learning more about this and finding any way that they can to support people on the ground in Palestine. But some kind of cool things have happened because of it. Like, in Eugene, over the weekend, there was this big pro-Palestine march. **Brooke ** 57:04 Eugene, Oregon. **Inmn ** 57:05 Yeah. Eugene, Oregon. There was this big pro-Palestine March. And this guy and a fucking Guy Fawkes mask gets out of his pickup truck in the middle of it and pulls out a handgun and, you know, starts firing it into a crowd. And then two antifascists come up with their own handguns and to like successfully deescalate and disarm this person. **Brooke ** 57:33 Awesome. **Inmn ** 57:34 You know, without shooting him. And,you know, it was later revealed that the gun this person was firing was like a.... it was not a live ammunition gun. It was called a splatter gun or something. But if you see the pictures of it, it looks like a fucking hand gun. So like, hell yeah to the people who intervened in that situation to like, hopefully prevent, to prevent something that's become a horrifying regularity. **Brooke ** 58:06 Yeah, it could have been a real gun. Yeah, we protect us. Yeah, speaking of war and conflict, can I tell you a funny thing from war? **Inmn ** 58:19 Yeah, you have another funny thing. O, you know, these previous things weren't funny. But let's end on a funny thing. **Brooke ** 58:26 Well my first thing was funny. Okay, I hope this will brighten up everyone else's day too. So, of course--this is not happy--there's a war going on against Ukraine right now. We're at, you know, 20 months, 22 months, getting close to two years on it. Ukrainians are continuing to fight and be bad asses and still doing things stealing equipment from the other side, including tanks. I don't know how much that they're still doing that, but we heard about that a lot in the beginning that the Russians would abandon tanks and Ukrainians would take them. So there was a Ukrainian officer, this was earlier this month, early October, who was driving around in his captured tank and started having technical difficulties with it. So he took it to local experts, whatever that means, and they weren't able to fix what's going wrong with it. It had some oil leakage and it was doing some other things. So he called the manufacturer of the tank, which is a Russian manufacturer, and he called them--and they're in Russia where they make them--and they called the Russian people for tech support. And they answered. And the person tried to help him problem solve the problem going on with the tank. He just called up and said, "Hey, I'm driving, you know, I'm involved in the war and I'm driving such-and-such type of tank and I'm having these problems." And he was...he was generally having the problems with a tank but the call to tech support was just to troll them. I mean, he didn't really expect them to answer or get help, but they did. And then they were trying to help problem solve through the issues that he had and let him file a complaint about the issues with the tank. And also passed him along to a manager at the manufacturing plant so he could further discuss the problems that he was having with this stolen Russian tank. **Inmn ** 1:00:19 Oh my god. Did he get the...did he get the tank operational? **Brooke ** 1:00:24 It doesn't sound like it because I think that really wasn't his end goal. He was really just, like I said, trolling them. And yeah, so he ended up talking to a manager about it. And then, you know, finally let them know, "Oh, by the way, I'm Ukrainian. I'm fighting against you guys. This is a tank that we captured, you know, earlier this year, that's giving me trouble. Thanks." **Inmn ** 1:00:48 Oh my god. That is one of the biggest, hilarious, you know, whatever, modern technology society things that I've ever heard. **Brooke ** 1:01:02 Yeah, and you know, he's speaking Russian. They have no idea. It's just great. It's really.... So there you go, troll the bad guys. When all else fails, just maybe, maybe troll them a little bit for the lols. **Inmn ** 1:01:19 Okay, well, I think that about wraps it up for This Month in the Apocalypse. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. **Brooke ** 1:01:32 Yay October! What joys will November bring us? **Inmn ** 1:01:37 So many more. **Inmn ** 1:01:44 If you enjoyed this podcast then live like the world is dying. Because it probably might be. Um, but you can also tell people about the podcast. You can support us in a bunch of other sillier ways, but you should really just tell people tell people about the podcast and talk to people about like, you know, if stuff like this happens where you are, if you are affected by any of these things, like figure out ways to deal with it as a small community that can help your larger community. And you can also support the show by supporting the publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers is a media publishing collective. We put out books, and podcasts, and zines, and a bunch of other stuff, and zines [said to rhyme with "dines"], and you can find us at tangledwilderness.org And you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And that money goes to paying our audio editor. It goes to paying our transcriptionist. And it goes towards supporting the publisher so that we can do lots of other cool stuff. And in particular, we would love to thank these folks. Thank you, Patolli, Eric, Perceval, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thank you for growing this list to such an extent that I'm out of breath by the time that I am done saying it. We hope that you're everyone's doing as well as they can with everything that's going on and we will see you next time.

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret and Patrick talk a lot about covid, public health, the role of anarchism in public health, and the weirdly similar origins of the names of two projects. Guest Info Patrick (he/him) can be found hosting the Last Born in the Wilderness podcast. You can find it at www.lastborninthewilderness.com or wherever you get podcasts. You an also find Patrick on Instagram @patterns.of.behavior or on Twitter @LastBornPodcast Host Info Margaret (she/they) can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Last Born in the Wilderness on Anarchist Public Health **Margaret ** 00:14 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy. I say it that way because there's other hosts now and I'm very excited about that. But sometimes, apparently, we have the same voice. And so people think that we are each other, but we're not. We're different people. And you can tell because my name is Margaret Killjoy and Inmn's name is not Margaret Killjoy. It is instead, Inmn. But that's not what we're talking about. What we're gonna talk about today ... Well, we're gonna talk about a lot of stuff today. I'm really excited about it. We're gonna be talking with the host of a podcast you should probably be listening to if you're not already called Last Born in the Wilderness. And it's like the [laughing] smarter thinking version of this show. And so we're gonna talk about that. And first, here's a jingle from another show on the network, which is ... the network is Channel Zero Network, which is a network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle. Buh buh bah buh buh bah [singing like a simple melody] **Margaret ** 02:09 Okay, we're back. Okay. So if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then kind of maybe introduce this other podcast, this project that you do. **Patrick ** 02:18 Yeah. Thanks for having me on. My name is Patrick Farnsworth. Pronouns are he/him. I'm the host of Last Born in the Wilderness. It's a podcast I've been hosting for quite a long time now and I ... I don't know how to describe it. Someone described it once as a podcast about death and dying, which sounds rather bleak. It's an interesting way to describe it. I mean, it's, uh, you know ... I certainly come from a radical leftist and anarchist, or as someone else has said about me, "anarchistic adjacent perspective." I'm talking about collapse. I'm talking about the implications of global climate change, climate disruption, the so-called sixth mass extinction anthropocene, like these kind of big, heady, huge global subjects around, you know, extinction and mass extinction events and so on. And I kind of also explore the history of settler colonialism and issues around whiteness, or I should say, white supremacy. I talk about a whole bunch of stuff. And I think the point of it is to really get at the question of: what are the roots of these kinds of broader biosphere crises that we're in the midst of? Why is it that human beings, or the dominant culture of human beings that we are part of, producing a mass extinction event? And what does that portend? What does that lead to? What can we expect to happen in the coming decades? And kind of wrestling with really deep ... "Deep." [said with an introspective laugh] I mean "deep" in the sense emotionally and spiritually with the question of what does extinction mean for our species? And how do we grapple with that? It's a big question. So yeah, that's more or less what the podcast is kind of addressing. **Margaret ** 04:03 Yeah, no. Okay, wait, so with extinction, do you run into this thing .... Okay, well, no, first I'm gonna ask about your name, then we're gonna come back to extinction. Where did you get this sick name? It's such a sick name. It's obviously ... As someone who is part of a project called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and then has a show called Live Like the World is Dying, I'm clearly a fan of this slightly long and poetic style of naming. But Last Born in the Wilderness is a sick name. I'm curious about its background. **Patrick ** 04:28 Sure. I mean, the name itself came--it's a funny origin story really--when I came up with the name, I was homesick and I didn't know what to call this thing. I didn't even know what I wanted to make. But I was thinking about what my father would call me because I'm the youngest of this large Mormon family. No longer LDS but grew up in this LDS family, LDS environment. He would call me his "last born in the wilderness" because being kind of ... he's kind of a lovely but very quirky man who would have these very strange nicknames for his kids, including me being the youngest, being the, quote, "last born the wilderness," meaning he was paraphrasing from the Book of Mormon. There's a verse in the Book of Mormon about this family going through the wilderness and something about being the "last born in this wilderness of mine afflictions." Like it's really dramatic kind of bleak Mormon scripture stuff and it's weird. So, I don't know, I guess I thought of my dad, I thought of that, I thought of my history, I thought of ... it sounded like it could have multiple meanings. And it does because as I did the podcast more and more I started to really think about the other layers of it, of, "Okay, are we the last generation?"  Like is this the end of this idea of wilderness. Wilderness itself is kind of an interesting idea. And the kind of colonialist notion, the dualism of civilization versus wilderness, and that in and of itself is a problematic idea. Like, there's a lot of layers to it that I've discovered, which is actually what I love about really cool names or titles of things is when you name something and you realize over time that it actually has other meanings that kind of come up, and you're like, "Oh, that actually means this as well. I did not know that." So that's where it comes from. **Margaret ** 06:13 Okay, I really like that for a thousand reasons. One of the things you talked about ...  I've been reading more and more stuff that's critical of the idea of "wilderness," right? Because you're creating an artificial distinction between humans and everything else, right? As if, like ... I mean, we're not capable of doing things that are not natural because we're literally, natural beings, right?  **Patrick ** 06:33 Yeah, exactly.  **Margaret ** 06:35 And the idea of untouched wilderness as this very colonial concept where it's like, actually, a lot of forests are managed by people and we're .... And it gets humans off the hook if we treat ourselves like we're bad, like, inherently, right?  **Patrick ** 06:51 Yeah.  **Margaret ** 06:51 Because like, "Ahhh, well, we're human, so of course we clear cut." And we're like, "Well, that's not true. A lot of people lived here for a very long time and didn't clear cut everything," right?  **Patrick ** 07:02 They didn't. No.  **Margaret ** 07:03 Okay. And then the other reason I like it, it's kind of the same background as Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness.  **Patrick ** 07:09 Oh, really.  **Margaret ** 07:10 I was once, when I was a weird "look at me, I'm so strange, oogle kid" running around and pulling books out of the trash, I dumpstered the Christian Science holy book. I don't know what it's called. And I just started cutting it up to make new assemblages of words and things, right? And one of the pieces that I cut out of it and then put on this piece of art I was making just said "strangers in the tangled wilderness." And I really liked it. And so I named my first zine I ever made like 20 some years ago--well not the first zine--but the first zine that I called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness because that's how I felt is like this wander, right? And then but since then I've learned, I think, I'm not an expert on Christian Science, although I can claim, my great grandmother was raised that way and then she was like, "This sucks," and then she just became an agnostic atheist pagan person. She was cool. It was like 100 years ago. She applied to college and she got so mad that they asked her what her religion is and she wrote "Sun worshiper," on the thing, which is complicated. But for a woman in the 1910s, I'm fucking into it. Anyway, the next line in it is "strangers in a tangled wilderness, wanders from the parent mind." And so it's using wilderness as a negative conception, I believe, in the traditional thing. And so yeah, it's like this interesting thing where Christianity ... Like, okay, so this "last born in the wilderness" seems to be implying this negative conception of wilderness. Which is this very negative version of Christianity producing such a thing. I don't know. That's what I've got. **Patrick ** 08:46 Yeah, I think the wilderness in scripture and Christian literature, or whatever, it's very much this .... Like, if you're wandering the wilderness, you're not in a good place. You've kind of either been banished or God is leaving you alone, giving you distance to figure your shit out for a while. Like, there's good things and bad things with that. But I think that the wilderness can .... Yeah, there is this implication in it of it being symbolic, or whatever, of it being not the best place to be in. You're not in paradise, that's for sure. You're not in the Promised Land, that's for sure. You're maybe on the way there, but you're not there. Yeah. And certainly, in that passage, if I remember, it's like, "In the wilderness of mine afflictions." Like, it's very, it's not ... you know, it's not a good place to be. But they were on their way to the Promised Land, I guess, in that scripture. So ... **Margaret ** 09:42 Okay, so you're like the last one before we reach paradise or whatever?  **Patrick ** 09:46 I guess. I don't know **Margaret ** 09:47 Like you're the last people who have a concept of wilderness and everyone else is going to live underground growing their food in very controlled environments because everything's hard. **Patrick ** 09:55 I guess so. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I think that certainly the world as we know it, the world that you and I were born into, is like kind of no longer here and we've entered into a new earth, which is not one that is hospitable to human, or much of the more than human life, unfortunately and it's gonna get progressively more and inhospitable. So, being the last born is really ... it's not a ... it's all of us. It's not like ....  You're not the last man on the Earth, or whatever, or the last person on the Earth. You're one of a generation, or several generations, that really remembers what it was like before the climate was completely chaotic and everything was on fire and everyone was coughing in your face with a plague. You know, that was a nice time. Remember that? That was cool. And now we're in this new place, or this seemingly novel place for us at least, of, kind of, amplifying crises. And it's .... Yeah, so anyway, sorry, that's rather bleak. But it's a little bit of what I talk about, I guess, or bring up in the podcast. The overarching sense.  **Margaret ** 11:04 No, no. Okay. Well, let's talk about coughing in people's faces with the plague. [Laughing] One of the topics that we wanted to talk about was kind of a little bit of where we're at with Covid. And not just a like, "Hey, there's a new wave coming. And there's new ... or here." And there's also like, you know, "Time for your yearly booster," and there's the non MRA [struggles with the letters] **Patrick ** 11:27 Non MRNA.  **Margaret ** 11:28 Yeah, thank you. Vaccines that just got approved and like all this other stuff. But, more about, I want to kind of ask you about what you've learned through your work about the fact that we are living in this place where community care has been left to individuals and smaller organizations, by and large, with some larger institutions trying to do good, while the, at least, federal level care and things like that have largely abandoned us to fend for ourselves. **Patrick ** 12:00 Yeah. You know, it's weird. This has been a disillusioning period, I think. Pandemic has been really rough for a lot of reasons. And I think I've talked about it a lot through a variety of lenses. I think there's a baseline of trust that's been lost among myself and a lot of other people. Like, I feel like to kind of continuing to keep up precautions and to avoid catching Covid is really a difficult thing at this time. And it's weird because there's been a normalization on such a broad level. And there's people on the left who really have given up and don't really care about it anymore. And seemingly, it sort of seems like we've kind of turned a corner. It feels like culturally, socially where it's kind of unacceptable to continue to care about it in this way. But I think if you are a leftist, in the broadest sense, not just a radical anarchist, or whatever, you really need to kind of get the facts straight about what Covid is and how it's still impacting people. How many people are becoming effectively disabled as a result of Covid infections? And then normalizing it is really fucked up. It's eugenicist, frankly. It's ableist. It's wrong. And I was just thinking, I don't know if I want to call .... I don't want to .... I don't know. I was thinking recently about how my partner and I moved up to Canada. Actually, we're in Victoria, BC right now, the city that is called Victoria, on Vancouver Island. There was an anarchist bookfair here. No mask requirements at this fair. And I think at other book fairs around, I don't know if around BC or just in the US in particular, masks were a requirement, like respirators were required. It's just a basic thing I think we need to kind of do now as leftists or anarchists is just to have, if we're gonna have a public event, these types of things just need to be kind of there. Like we just have to do them. Because there's a lot of people who are immunocompromised or disabled that just can't show up because this is not a safe, "safe," these [unhearable word] words, but like literally, it'll harm their bodies. **Margaret ** 14:09 Yeah, it's like full of spikes that are shooting out of the ceiling. You know, it's not... **Patrick ** 14:14 Yeah, exactly. So I think just the act of community care on that level--I mean, you don't have to be an anarchist to do this of course--but I think particularly for anarchists that are supposedly about communal acts of care and mutual aid, like this is a really basic one, a pretty easy one. It's interesting how it's not-- you know for anarchists, there's no like ... I don't know if there's a global anarchist Federation that has doled out some kind of guidelines. That would never make sense. But it's interesting how in every place around North America there's different kinds of cultural temperaments, or certain attitudes, around certain things and particularly around Covid. It's interesting how in Canada, how maybe anarchists in Canada don't maybe care as much about it. I don't know. I guess I can't speak for them, but it's an interesting thing to experience the ways in which the normalization of Covid has affected different regions. And it's ... Yeah, so anyway, I just wanted to kind of bring that up because we are still in the midst of this thing. I can get into reasons why it's still a problem, why it is still a threat to people's health, but it shouldn't be. I don't know. I just think it's really imperative that anarchists kind of get with the program if they haven't already. **Margaret ** 15:26 Yeah, and like, I've been fairly proud of the fact that overall I've found anarchists and punks and different sorts of subcultural folks and political folks to be more on top of it than the average person or place, but not .... I haven't been blown away either, you know? And we have had .... Most of the book fairs that I've been aware of or gone to, or whatever, this year have had some kind of masking requirement. Sometimes it's a rigid requirement. Sometimes it's like, here's the masks at the door, and someone's going to kind of be like, "You should really wear one of these," but not like kick you out without a mask. Like, I .... Shout out to the anarchist space called Firestorm in Asheville, North Carolina that during COVID, they actually moved into a new building, and part of why they picked the building, as far as I can tell, is that it used to be an auto shop so the doors open all the way, like one wall is open. And they still have a mask requirement inside of the store because they're like, "Well, they're still a pandemic. So you should wear a mask. This isn't complicated," you know? And like .... Okay, have you ever seen the TV show The 100? **Patrick ** 16:42 I think I've heard of it. **Margaret ** 16:45 I watched the first two or three seasons a while ago. And I .... But there's this thing that I think about all the time. It was not a particularly important TV show to me. But there's one thing that seemed kind of hackneyed at the time where basically almost no one can live on the Earth because there was a pandemic. And a lot of people live in space. And then some people come back down from space. And then there's people who have "lost their minds" and "lost civilization" who, you know, have adapted. And then there's these people who live inside a mountain. And they're like, "Oh, we can't go outside the mountain except with, you know, full suits that protect ...." I forget the word for this, like the chemical suits or whatever.  **Patrick ** 17:23 Like hazmat suits or something like that.  **Margaret ** 17:25 So yeah, you can't go outside without a hazmat suit and a gas mask. And like, you know, when you come back in you have to go through decontamination and all this stuff. And I remember watching it and being like, you just sort of take it for granted. You're like, yeah, you know, if there was a thing in the air that killed people or made people disabled, people would like, take it seriously, you know? And then now I'm like, "Man, that was a utopian piece of fiction right there." Like, within the first week someone would be like 'Fake news. There's nothing in the air outside," and then the whole mountain would have been destroyed.  **Patrick ** 18:00 Speaking of like pop culture .... Like, sometimes it is. I watched that film Contagion a while ago. It came out before Covid. It's like what, a Stevens Soderbergh film? Whatever, it doesn't matter. It came out. And it was like "What would happen if a really, really dangerous, very contagious virus just started spreading? Like, what would the agencies do? What would the CDC do? What would global world governments do?" Whatever. And, you know, it was fairly .... It tried to be realistic while also being kind of dramatic. And it was a really nasty virus. Everybody is locked down, quarantine, blah, blah, blah. They make a vaccine, they do a lottery, people get it at the end, and it's over. Like, that's the end of the movie. Everybody gets the vaccine. Everybody gets the vaccine, everybody's happy to get the vaccine. And no, you know, I mean, yeah, certainly .... Covid is in this weird, I feel like it's in this weird space. And I've said this before on an interview with somebody, this epidemiologist, I was saying it's this weird space where it's like, it's obviously really, really bad to get it, but it's also like a lot of people get it and it doesn't seem to affect them that much. They kind of feel like, "Oh, it's kind of like the cold or kind of like a flu." It isn't, though. I mean, looking at the actual virus and how it affects the body, it is not like those viruses. So it's very different. But the fact is, is that, you know, percentage wise, you know, most people get it, they don't die from it. So what's the big deal? So, I think it's in this weird space where it's a very contagious, very nasty virus, but it doesn't have the mortality rate of like Ebola or something so people aren't going to take it seriously. So, it's weird. It's a weird thing. And we're, you know, almost four years into this thing. So, people are obviously quite weary. We've been talking about it. So yeah, it's hard. **Margaret ** 19:53 No, totally. And like, I mean, it's funny because it's like I also get the ... I get why people are over it and have to live their lives. And I think I talked about this in a recent episode, I can't remember. I was talking to someone about it. I no longer have real conversations. I only have podcast conversations. It was like, okay, we can't not have live music as part of our human experience of the world, or whatever, right? But to me it's all about looking at these cost-benefit analyses. And by and large, with exceptions, like if someone's doing hard manual labor all day I can see why wearing a mask is particularly hard, or like, you know, there's complicating factors. But, overall, it's just not a fucking big deal. Like to--Covid is--but to wear a mask-- **Patrick ** 20:38 Yeah.  **Margaret ** 20:39 --for, I think, most people in most situations, And I think the main reason people don't wear masks is because of the social aspect of it. Because they are afraid of being the only person wearing a mask. And I just like ask us to not act out of fear. I ask us to do what's right. Or I think we are asked by being alive. I think that we are asked to be ... to do what is right, not what is popular, or whatever, right? And, so that's what's so disappointing to me about it. And I mean, this is part of why everyone gets so mad at people who .... Because I also try not to be like .... You don't really like gain a lot when you tell people like, "What the fuck? What's wrong with you? You can't do that." It's not a very effective strategy, you know? And so I do think it's like, overall, I really appreciate a lot of the phrasing that I've seen about being like, "Hey, even if you stop masking, here's like a good reason to start again."  And like, you know, there's no harm in just mea culping and just starting to mask again, **Patrick ** 21:46  Yeah, no, for sure. And I don't know, there's a lot of other things going on too. When you .... It really is fascinating to be like .... You obviously want to be like, you want to encourage this level of care and I think what's sort of hard is there is a real lack of public .... Like, good public health messaging has been terrible. So, it's an interesting dynamic. I feel like anarchists are people who are more on the ground organizing at grassroots levels. At a grassroot level, you are trying to fill a void, which is the government doesn't really want to fucking deal with this shit. They just don't want to deal with it. They have, they've learned enough. And they know that they can move on warm, more or less. And so they're not going to do anything about it anymore. And so you have to take care of yourself, The rich are taking care of themselves. They have all the tools, They know exactly how to run a Covid-safe event. They've been doing it for a while now. And they have really good like .... In the way that you would pay for security or catering at an event, they pay for Covid Safety coordinators. Yeah, they're really good at it. And if they're doing that, and they understand this, then we should be doing it for ourselves because we as the poors, we need to take care of each other, take care of ourselves and learn basic information that unfortunately a lot of people don't have. And actually .... I understand that by doing my podcasts or doing this kind of work that I am able to delve into some of these subjects more closely. So, I might know a little more about Covid than the average person. And honestly, the more I learn about it, the more I don't want to get it and the more I would encourage people to avoid reinfection more than anything. If you've had it before, you don't want to get it again. There's so many intersecting issues here. I guess I just, I just really want to emphasize community care is the most important thing right now in regards to this. Need to really get on top of that, if we haven't already. And a lot of people are. It's amazing, actually, how many people are doing it, like mask blocks. There's all kinds of people organizing around this subject. And they don't have any particular, seemingly political ideology that's animating it. It's just they're doing it because it's right.  **Margaret ** 23:57 Yeah, totally. One of the things you were saying about realizing like the government has abandoned us, so the government has moved on and things like that. It's one of these ... at the beginning of Covid, it actually kind of challenged, in some ways, it challenged a lot of my own anarchist thoughts, right? Because I try not to assume I'm right. I try not to look at a problem and say "What's the anarchist solution?" I try to look at a problem and say, "What's the solution?" I have a bias that lends itself towards non state, non capitalist solutions. But I try to earnestly look at every problem and say, "What is the best solution?" and so far in my life the answer is usually nonstate, anti capitalist, anti oppression, right? Well, and some of those things are also moral, you know. But at the beginning of Covid, you start being like, "Well, shit, someone needs to .... This needs to be organized on a massive scale, right?" And then, now what we actually saw instead gave me the opposite, whereas at the beginning of Covid mutual aid groups popped up everywhere, you know, and mutual aid groups like stepped into the void of what was not being met. Because people were locked down, they were like, not able to meet a bunch of other needs, and a lot of them, in the US, at least, we have, you know, we got stimulus money or whatever. And it wasn't enough for most people. And, but I think that it becomes really clear that you look a year on and as soon as Covid  is over, you're like, "Oh, you're running some cold math about dead people in the economy, or disabled people in the economy, and you are deciding that getting people back to work makes the country more money even though a bunch of people will die or become disabled as a result," you know? And so it's like one of those things, to me, it just lays bare the reality of government, that governments exists to make this kind of cold calculation, not take care of people. **Patrick ** 25:57 Yeah, no, I think at the beginning there was a lot of ambiguity. We didn't know what this would really be. So obviously lock downs--or what we would call lock downs but really just kind of stay-at-home orders--or just tell people, like, "Please just avoid social gatherings for a while." And then the masks came into the picture and things like this, that was implemented just because there was, you know, there was a lot of ambiguity. We didn't know everything we know now. And once the, kind of, the cold calculus really came in, and there's a lot of other things too, but really when that came in and it was like, "This is hurting the economy. This isn't gonna work. You know, we have to really focus on jobs over, you know, everything else, over our lives. So, yeah, let's just get back to work." And I don't know. But I think it is kind of an interesting thing, though, because the anti-mask thing is very much an aesthetic choice. It's not as much a practical, irrational thing, because we could have jobs and all this stuff running exactly as before but people are wearing high quality respirators. Sure, we could have all kinds of things implemented. It would take an investment. From a cold capitalist perspective, it's rational to put an air filtration, it's rational to have people wear respirators, and yet from .... I don't know what it is, but just the idea of actually providing public health infrastructurally on that level is just not possible at this point for some reason. It's just not feasible. I was thinking about the kind of origins of public health, as it were, and like John Sn--I think his name was John Snow in England--he kind of figured out where the cholera outbreaks were coming from. And that really helped kickstart this movement to, you know, kind of figure out how to provide clean water for people on a massive social scale, on the scale of a city, right? It took a long time and a lot of deaths for something to finally change. And now we just take for granted that when you turn on a faucet in most places around, say, North America, you're gonna find you're gonna have clean water. Like it's pretty not always the case, certainly, but, you know, it's kind of taken for granted that that's almost like a right that we have. But clean air has not really entered into that same, that level of feeling like an entitlement that we have as human beings for a quality of life issue, that this is important. So, I don't know, it's interesting to witness how this has been playing out and also sort of an anarchist, or whatever, thinking about it from that level of like, if we want to move away from States and governments, how would an anarchist society deal with this issue? How would non-Statist, anti-Statists deal with this? And it's interesting. I don't know yet. I haven't really figured that out. And, I was kind of thinking because you do a history podcast as well. And I'm wondering if there was anything you came across as, you know, kind of radical leftist movements that were like, "How do we apply the values of public health and health care from a maybe communal collectivist sense that does not rely on the institution of states and bureaucracies? Like, I don't know, I wonder about this because we're trying to just fill the gap of what the State isn't doing. It's almost reactionary, right? What would it look like to be proactive in that sense? I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. I just think it's interesting. **Margaret ** 29:26 Okay, no, that's interesting. From a history point of view, there's a piece that I read right near the beginning of pandemic--that I haven't read in a while and I don't remember as well--this Italian anarchist, Malatesta, wrote a piece called like something like "Anarchists and the Cholera Outbreak," and it was about anarchist public health responses to a late 19th century health crisis. But I also know that anarchists have been doing a ton of stuff on public health since the beginning. I think that like .... I mean, you can look at like ... it's anarchists who, at least in the US, pushed birth control and pushed information about sexually transmitted diseases and like sexual health. And it's like, people are like, "Oh, yes, early feminists," and I'm like, "Yeah, they were early feminist anarchists." I mean, there's some exceptions to that. And then of course, you have bad examples where Margaret Sanger, who founded Planned Parenthood, was, like, a "complicated figure" who embraced non-racialized eugenics. And that is bad. But it is spun to mean that she was different, that she believed in something different than what she actually believed. And, but it's still bad. And she started off as an anarchist. She, actually, by the time she was really doing the eugenics because a lot of like--a lot of eugenics, you kind of need the State for, right, especially like the evilest parts of it or the like who gets to decide who has babies are whatever, right, and all that shit. But Margaret Sanger was an anarchist when she first started doing a lot of the birth control stuff. Emma Goldman got arrested a ton of times. The person who's at the longest in jail in US history for advocating birth control was this guy--I just did an episode about this, I don't normally have all these facts in front of me--was this guy named Ben Reitman, who was mostly an anarchist. He spent most of his life fucking around with the anarchist scene. But the anarchists scene didn't like him because he was super horny and he kept cheating on Emma Goldman, which is impressive because they were in an open relationship. Yeah, but he still managed to sort of piss her off with how many people we slept with, even though it was supposedly okay. He spent the longest of anyone in history, in US history, in jail for advocating birth control. And he was also a ... he was a hobo doctor. He was a doctor who went to medical school, became a physician, specifically so that he could treat STIs in the poorer classes and people who didn't have access to public health. And so a lot ... As far as I can tell, I see this thing, this pattern happen a lot where things come from the bottom up and then the top is like, "Okay, cool, we got that." And you can see this benevolently where you're like, "Oh, it comes from the bottom up and then the State comes in and takes charge and everything's okay." And, and there's some advantages that have come up through that, but overall, I think it is to the detriment of these systems. And I think that... I don't know, I guess I'm like, I think that decentralized networks that have some forms of centralized information sharing, are very capable of doing these sorts of things. Also, sorry, I'll stop spitting out anarchist history in a minute.But the legalization of abortion, the first Western European country... Soviet Russia was the first country to legalize--I could be wrong about this--was one of the first countries, if not the first country, to legalize abortion in Europe. But then Stalin was like, "Just kidding. You must make babies," because he's a bastard. Then Federica Montseny, the woman Minister of Health in revolutionary Spain, who was an anarchist--which is really complicated and there was a lot of arguing at the time about whether Federica Monseigneur and some of her peers should have joined the coalition government--she legalized abortion. And so it's like, funny. So even the State idea of public health came from an anarchist who was part of the State, you know? **Patrick ** 33:30 I don't know, I think that it's this thing where when we're thrust into these big crises, like a pandemic, we start to really... we do have to reevaluate our ideological stances a little bit like. Because for me, you know--I think this is something we talked about when you were on my podcast like three years ago, or whatever--something about, like, it's not our position to tell people how to do things. Like, if it's another country and other people they're going to figure out how to solve their problems in their own way. And, you know, I think a lot of revolutionary movements do lead to certain types of, obviously, State kind of action or States.... It's directed towards the State or the State itself's kind of response to it in a way that is actually beneficial to the people. But that's not because the State is good. It's just under enormous amounts of pressure. It's just.... It's complicated. I don't think it's one thing and I think that it's a good thing that the government was able to mass produce or help mass produce vaccines, but I also think it was really fucked up that it was then decided that that was the end of the pandemic because everybody was vaccinated. It's kind of this... It's this thing. It's not one thing. It's very complicated. But I do think overwhelmingly, absolutely, if public health is being administered on this sort of ground level where the feedback between the actual public and the sort of people administering public health, if that feedback loop is shorter, where you're able to actually hear what people are saying and you can actually see what's going on in the ground, there's an actual connection and it's done democratically and collectively then you actually can administer public health in a way that is going to help people and not being imposed on people. Right? So yeah, I think there's been, for me, a lot of questions and lessons learned from this pandemic up to this point. So, and also, I don't know, I just throw this in there, they're not necessary anarchist, but like the Black Panthers and the Young Lords, you know, they were very much about health care and administering health care on a community level and did forward a lot of things that even today...like I think it was something like the Young Lords were really pushing for patients having access to their own... like that the doctors had to explain to them what....Is that right?  **Margaret ** 35:44 Yeah, they introduced the Patient's Bill of Health that has since been used internationally. **Patrick ** 35:51 So you know, and they were radical, you know, they took over hospitals, they occupied, you know, they did a lot. So, yeah. Anyway, I just, I think in regards to the pandemic, right now, whatever major breakthroughs that we're gonna have in regards to dealing with cleaning the air or, you know, actually making sure that people have access to resources and information, it's gonna have to come from the ground level, in pressure from the ground level because it ain't good right now. It really isn't. **Margaret ** 36:22 No, and that, I really liked that. I think that's a really good point. And when I think about it, the Young Lords are the perfect example of this. And they're, you know, yeah, they were Marxist Leninists, but they were doing something from the bottom up and forced the city of New York City to take action. Like, for example, in the neighborhood that they lived in--they moved all over the place, but they first started in, I want to say, the Upper East Side in a Puerto Rican neighborhood in Manhattan--and no trash was coming. No trash pickup was happening there, partly because of some racism of some white labor unions and the trash union and partly due to just systemic poverty and other forms of racism. It wasn't all just the trash workers problem...fault. But, you know, they just started dragging trash in the middle of the street and setting it on fire. And they did it in the parts of their neighborhood that rich people have to drive through. They did it in the through fares. And it worked. Trash pickup became a major issue in the next mayoral election. And then trash pickup, like they like, revolutionized how trash is picked up in New York City. And it was this major health issue. And then the other things that they would do is they would go door to door to do tuberculosis screenings. And they would also like--they're so fucking cool. At one point, they hijacked an X-ray van that was going through these neighborhoods to like X-ray people for tuberculosis but wasn't going to poor neighborhoods of color. And there's like some arguments about whether that was because of what time the schedule was and didn't work for people's jobs or if it was a straight up, like, "Nah, we're just hanging out in the white neighborhoods." But what happened was the X-ray technicians, they were like, "Sick, we don't give a shit. We just want to fucking help stop TB." And that's what's so interesting to me about government workers versus non-government workers is that the people doing the shit, whether it's for the government or not, they just want to get the shit done. They don't care which system is doing it. Like the X-ray technicians were like "Sick, fuck yeah, we're still getting paid. Like, it's a little weird that you came in with guns, but whatever, it was necessary. You take us up there." And then they started. And they ended up with a fucking X-ray van parked outside the Young Lords headquarters several days a week, paid for by the hospital. And so it.... I got really worked up. **Patrick ** 38:37 Yeah, no. It's cool, though. **Margaret ** 38:38 But I think that these questions about anarchist public health, one of the things that is so interesting to me is that it's like systems allow things to happen but people are who do it. And so often people will ask, will be like, "Well, how will an anarchist society produce insulin?" or whatever. And like, well, part of the answer is, I don't know how we make insulin now, but that's probably how we'll make it then too, right. You know? And so like, anarchist public health can look, in some ways, really similar in terms of like, well, we'll have people who know a lot about public health directing these things, you know? Because it's not the government that regulates things, it is people who design the systems of regulation. And anything that people can do, we are people, and also I'm not trying to disclude those people from my society. And I just want it to happen in a system that is actually anti-oppressive, that is horizontal, that is anti-capitalist, you know, that is all of these things. And so yeah, so what if instead of we build shit from the bottom up and the government swoops in and then kind of makes it shitty and watered down, we build things from the bottom up and then keep building and just keep those buildings that we make horizontal and keep them like.... Yep, I got totally worked up. **Patrick ** 39:51 No, you're good. No, you're right, though. That's exactly it. Like, there are, at every stage of the way, I think...sorry, I'm also kind of worked up.... I feel like health and healthcare is actually is a core and central component of any sort of revolutionary movement because it is so integral to everyone, obviously, our health and well-being is such an integral part of everyone's lives. So how we treat disabled people, how we treat people of all age groups, how access to care is affect...you know, people's sort of demographic that they exist in, the racial system that we have, it affects how people have access to certain types of care. I mean, all of this is so...it intersects with so many things. So, I think the pandemic has highlighted a lot of this. And I think it's been a very upsetting and difficult time. And I think people kind of need to...they've tuned out. They need to kind of tune back in and I get why they tuned out, but they just need to try to tune in tune in a bit because it's going to--I'm sorry, it sounds bleak and this is kind of my thing--it's gonna get worse unless we make it better. And I think there's an assumption that somehow got better and it really hasn't. And again, this is just because I am, I mean, I am doing this sort of collaborative series right now. But also, I've just learned as much as I can about how Covid is affecting the body and it's a nasty virus. It's causing really wild complications in people's bodies. It is a very strange thing. So, you know, it's not enough to just tell you as an individual, "Please do this thing," or "Please do that." We need actual systems of care that really accommodate everybody. So yeah, to me, it is...and I know, we were kind of discussing how this, you know, what my podcast really addresses is a lot of it's around climate and the implications of climate change. How we deal with Covid is indicative of how we're dealing with...it's like a Russian doll, you know, nested within itself. It's like, "This is how we're dealing with this? Well, this is how we're dealing with ecological crisis and the climate crisis as well." How we adapt to the changes that are coming from this pandemic is how we are choosing or not choosing to deal with the changes that are coming from a rapidly changing climate system. So, this is all related. And I think, again, as radical leftists, you have to catch up with that and to kind of recognize that part of it in my opinion. **Margaret ** 42:31 No, that makes sense. There's kind of...one of the things that I do, I do a lot of crafting as my main way to decompress and stuff like that, right, and one of the things that I've like been learning as I get older is a random maxim, that's a cliche, which is how you do one thing is how you do everything. And it's not literally true. But I think about it when I want to cut corners. I think about it, when I like... I finished, you know, I'm making my raised beds and I'm like, "I'm going to not sand that corner. It doesn't really matter. I'm not going to see that part" right? You know? But those all build up and more that by learning the discipline of handling things and taking things seriously, it puts me in the position for the parts that do matter, to not cut corners, to go at things systematically, to make sure I do things right. And I kind of liked this, this presentation of how we handle Covid is how we handle climate change. You know, they're not the same problem. They're related. They're part of the interwoven crises we are facing. And so we shouldn't freak out about either because that literally doesn't do us any good. But we should probably be more alarmed than overall we are about both of these things and looking soberly at the problem and what solutions are and running cost benefit analyses but not cost benefit analysis for what saves the economy but what costs benefit analyses feed people. And to be fair, the economy is part of what feeds people, but there's other methods of feeding people, which the government knows and that's part of why they're like "Shit, we got to make sure that we stay feeding people because otherwise people are gonna figure out communism."  **Patrick ** 44:17 Yeah. [Chuckling] **Margaret ** 44:18 But...No, I like this framework. I like this idea that we should.... You know, I mean, it's a thing that I think I've talked about before on this show where I'm like, well, we should just be installing better HVAC systems. And even if you want to have...like, there's certain things that are not conducive to masking, right? An inside restaurant is not conducive to masking. And personally, I just kind of avoid them because it's not a big part of my life. I live in the middle of nowhere and I make all my own food. But that's me and I can't get mad at other people for making different decisions around that. But--well, I mean, there's certain decisions I can get mad at people about but whatever. But at the very least, you can look at being like, "Okay, we have a restaurant, how are we going to build it for HVAC? How are we going to build it for, you know, cycling the air as much as possible, for keeping windows open, for patio service, for whatever. And this is still within a very not changing that much about society framework. I would prefer greatly to consider larger frameworks. But then again, a lot of things that we talk about within larger frameworks... like when I imagine how I think society would work is that personally, I'd be like, "Well, a lot of food is like people cook at home and eat with their family and friends and stuff, but also, you can just go to the big free restaurant that's kind of probably a food line and they put food on your plate and then you eat it. And it's great. You hang out with everyone. And I'm like, well, how the fuck do you do that in a Covid world? And it's hard to know. And it changes what is possible and what is safe and what is good that we live in this different world. I'm done. This is the end of my rant. **Patrick ** 45:51 Yeah, no, it's.... I think, you know, while I do, admittedly, succumb to sort of bleak and sad and depressed attitudes around a lot of things, I actually think what you said there is interesting because it's actually...you know, people look at it like it is a--what do they call it--a foreclosing of possibilities, right? And it is on some level. You are foreclosing the possibility of...like, for instance, I miss going to just coffee shops and chilling out and drinking coffee and working on my computer, reading, or whatever, and hanging out with people. And there's this whole like social aspect to that particular thing. But it is also a business where people are probably getting paid too little and being treated like shit by entitled customers. And, you know, I've worked in the coffee business long enough that I know exactly what that's like. That said, that is very much related to the restaurant business and all these other types of businesses and industries that people exist in where they're exploited regularly and people don't really, if they don't have to deal with that type of labor and do that themselves, they often don't really care. And so they just want that experience again, right? They just want to go back to being served again in a restaurant. That's so cool. If you, of course, have a more, I mean, anti capitalist laboratory attitude, you'd be like, "Well, how do we have that experience without it being so fucking shitty for a certain group of people," right? And how do we also make it so that it's Covid safe so that people don't catch awful plagues sitting around and having fun together? And eating, you know, and drinking coffee or wine or whatever? It's like, how can we imagine the restaurant/coffee shop experience without it being through this sort of...as it being a sort of capitalist enterprise? And that's...I think, through crisis, or through this sort of thing of a pandemic, we can reimagine it in a way that is safer and better for everybody that isn't exploiting everyone, or certain groups of people. You know what I mean? **Margaret ** 47:48 No, absolutely. I...I don't know, I agree. **Patrick ** 47:53 I think you just said something that kind of brought up something for me because I have this tendency, and it comes through in the podcast that I do a lot, which is I am not a particularly optimistic person. And so I can tend to fall into a.... I mean, there's certain things I'm just always going to have this attitude about, but you know, I think.... My partner laughed when I said that. [A third voice laughs in the background] I...I have the tendency, but I think I can kind of...it does foreclose possibilities and sort of radical action and things that can be done right now and can alleviate some of the suffering and misery that I and others are experiencing if we kind of just...I don't know, it's...I don't know. I guess I just appreciated what you said because it just kind of opened a little door in my head where I kind of forgot, like, "Oh, yeah, like, actually, I don't have to be that way all the time. Okay. Cool."  **Margaret ** 48:47 I think it's really funny that I took the name Killjoy and now I'm basically a professional optimist. I mean, I want to be a realist. But I'm like.... Well, like, I don't know, one of things I learned from cognitive behavioral therapy is they're, "Well, what's the worst that could happen?" and you're like, "Well, I could die." And they're like, "Okay, what then?" and you're like, "Well, then nothing," you know, and they're "Okay, well, what do you want?" Like, you know, and it's kind of like all this really terrible stuff is happening that's absolutely true. We need to take that seriously. But like, well, we're all gonna die anyway, you know? So... **Patrick ** 49:22 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there's even something about..I think that what I've learned from doing my work is that, you know, I do get these responses from people that say, like, "I really appreciate that you're saying the thing. You're not looking away from it. You're just talking about it. There's actually a comfort in it." Because I think people feel kind of--and this word's overused--but gaslit where there's sort of this normalization of stuff that just feels like people aren't quite...like there's a glazed look in their eye when you bring up certain subjects and they're kind of bothered...you know, it's like...Um, it's a difficult thing, and I guess I've always been one to want to talk about those types of subjects. And, yeah, death, if death is the worst possible thing that can happen then, you know, what else? You know, then what? Right?  **Margaret ** 50:12 Yeah, what else you got? Like? **Patrick ** 50:14 Yeah, exactly. So. But, I mean, Frankly, you know, I mean, you know, some of the subjects I deal with in a broad sense, you know, are about extinction and are about the implications of climate change. And that is a heavy thing. And I do think that it weighs on the minds and hearts of people. And so I don't know if there's answers...There's no answer to how to like.... There's no therapy that will fix that, right? There's no like...You can't go to a therapist to fix this problem. It's just, it is what it is. And so then what? And that's... I don't have an answer, but at least I can talk about it. **Margaret ** 50:49 Absolutely. Well, we are running out of time, but I'm wondering if there was anything that I should have asked you on this particular topic and then if not, or after that, I'm wondering how people can find your work to engage with it. **Patrick ** 51:06 Yeah, well, I mean, I'm glad we could talk about Covid and it did kind of open some things up for me, so thank you for the discussion. I don't know, I guess there's a lot to say. I guess I would ask people, if you haven't been masking, start masking again. We are in a wave. Learn more about that. It's actually quite fascinating. So just do that. That'd be cool. It'd be good for your own health and the benefit of others. There's a lot to say, I don't know, I guess I guess we could have talked more about some other aspects of my work. But this is fine because I've been obsessively learning about Covid, so that's probably on my mind more than anything. Yeah, no, I mean, I guess people can learn more about my podcast. I have my website lastborninthewilderness.com. Everything is there. You can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts. You can support my work on Patreon. All that stuff. I have that.... I mentioned I'm doing a collaborative series with, his name is Joshua Pribanic from the Public Herald. He's a journalist and filmmaker. And we're doing a collaborative series on long covid specifically, so that should be.... We haven't quite figured out exactly how that's gonna play out. But we will have that out in the coming weeks or months, starting to release those episodes. So I would ask people to look out for that. **Margaret ** 52:18 Hell yeah. Alright, well, thanks so much for coming on. And I have a feeling...yeah, there's so much more that even was on our list of things we're going to talk about, so I have a feeling I'm going to try and drag you back pretty soon.  **Patrick ** 52:29 Okay, good.  **Margaret ** 52:34 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast then take public health seriously. [Said with a skeptically questioning tone] It shouldn't have to be on us. But it kind of always does because everything is always on us because we're all actually equals in this society that we all collectively build. So think about that, I guess, and listen to the Last Born in the Wilderness. And if you want to support this podcast in particular, you can support it by telling people about it, you can do.... You can tell machines about it. Just go to a computer and write on it with a sharpie and say like, "I like Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, and then whoever's computer it is, hopefully doesn't run as fast as you, and then after that, you can also support us financially by supporting us on Patreon, by supporting our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, whose province of name you now know. Because I was cutting up holy books like a jerk. And you can support us on Patreon and it's patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. If you support us at $10 or more a month, we send you a zine every month. But if you support us at like $1 a month, you're still helping this podcast have a transcript and you're helping this podcast be edited. Those are the people who get paid currently. And one day it'll pay the hosts and that'll be sweet because I like eating food. But I'm not trying to pressure you about that. Also, if you don't have any money, don't give it to us. Just fucking spend it on your own food. Like whatever. From each according to ability to each according to need. It is a slogan that predates Marx, so don't worry. But now I don't remember who said it off the top of my head. In particular, I would like to thank a list of people. I would like to thank Eric and Perceval, Buck, Jacob, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S. J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Michaiah. And as always, Hoss the Dog was a very good dog. I'm not gonna tell you where Hoss lives, but I've met Hoss. Hoss is great. Okay, I hope everyone is doing as well as you can despite the fact that everything's ending

Episode Summary This time on This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke, Inmn, and Margaret talk about food insecurity, genocide in Armenia, a storm in Libya, battles for abortion care access, the government shut down, the state of water, and how everything can tie back to Lord of the Rings. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: September, 2023 **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying [Brooke cheers] and this is our extra fun This Month in the Apocalypse section in which we talk about, unfortunately, most of the horrible things that happened in the last month. I'm one of your hosts today, Inmn, and I have with me some other folks.  **Margaret ** 00:36 Hi. **Brooke ** 00:36 The indomitable you. **Margaret ** 00:40 Brooke is Brooke. I'm...I'm Out-mn [like Inmn, but out] Margaret, **Brooke ** 00:45 I'll be Margaret, you be Out-mn. **Margaret ** 00:49 The inverse of Inmn. [Brooke laughing] Or, I'll be Margaret. And then Inmn can be Brooke. **Inmn ** 01:02 I don't know nearly enough about math to be Brooke, but I will try. **Margaret ** 01:07 Okay, we'll just switch each other's scripts and so that we each read what the other has researched. And y'all can go  with my shitty notes. **Inmn ** 01:17 Yeah, right. You know, that sounds great. But before we get to all of that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here is a jingle from another show on that network. Bah doo boop doo [Singing the words like a simple melody] **Inmn ** 02:21 And we're back. And, to start off the show, we have harped a lot on how horrible of a place Phoenix, Arizona is a lot this year.  **Brooke ** 02:38 Oh, I've definitely talked shit too, so...it's at least an "us" and not necessarily a "we."  **Margaret ** 02:42 I really appreciate you making this a "we" instead of me just talking shit on it. **Inmn ** 02:48 Yeah, no, I mean, it's the place, famously, where propane tanks explode because it's too hot and people fall on the ground and get burned. And, where they're trying to build some giant super future city that Bill Gates wants to trap us all in...or something. But a listener got a hold of me and told me about the history of the name, Phoenix, because it got brought up on the show. And, what he had to tell me about it was that Phoenix is named so because it was built from the ashes of a Hohokam civilization that was literally burned to the ground by white settlers. [Brooke boos] And they wanted to inspiringly build a city in its ashes. [laughing in a horrified way] So yeah, the surprising but not too surprising history of Phoenix.  **Margaret ** 03:58 It's more like the spell Animate Dead where you bring someone back to life but as a mindless zombie who serves you instead of their original purpose.  **Inmn ** 04:04 Yeah, totally. Yeah.  **Margaret ** 04:08 Brooke, what were you gonna say? Sorry.  **Brooke ** 04:09 Oh, just that I think that, as an indigenous person, we should go ahead and re-Phoenix, Phoenix. [Everyone laughs] It's time.  **Margaret ** 04:18 This is just a terrible transitional state that I was in before... **Brooke ** 04:21 I mean if it rises from the ashes, let's burn that motherfucker down and give it back to its proper people. **Inmn ** 04:29 It might do that on its own. The way the city is running it, it might...that might happen regardless of intention. **Brooke ** 04:38 Excellent. I'm glad to help, though. I will help the city towards that goal. **Inmn ** 04:44 Yeah. But, in a hopeful note for Arizona, I did find out that other cities in Arizona, not Phoenix, do weirdly have a pretty robust aquifer system. Like the city of Tucson, for example, only relies on the Colorado River for like 5% of its water, and otherwise, it's all aquifer driven and there's a lot of cool programs in place for--this is me defending that Arizona is a fine place to live. **Margaret ** 05:18 I know. And I'm going to talk about groundwater later [Laughing] and how aquifers are all drying up all over the country. **Brooke ** 05:24 Thank God, because I was going to insert some shit about there right now. So, I'll leave that for you, Margaret. **Inmn ** 05:28 Great. Well, to start us off today aside from Arizona... **Brooke ** 05:36 Phoenix getting burned down. **Inmn ** 05:36 ...Aside from Phoenix getting burned down. There are some bad things happening in the world. I know this is a shock to all of our listeners who came here for a list of joyful things about the apocalypse, right? But, so there's a new wave of activity in the Armenian Genocide from Azerbaijan. And, what's been happening is that on September 19th, Azerbaijan   launched a full assault on Nagorno-Karabakh targeting mostly civilian infrastructure. There have been--you know, this was as of September 19th--200 casualties so far. But, there are 120,000 people who are completely cut off from any kind of external supplies or aid. Nagorno-Karabakh, it's been contested for a really long time. It's been the subject of a lot of past conflicts. And, both sides have--there's been a, you know, an unsteady..."peace" isn't the right word, but, you know, non-attacking-each-other time. And both sides are kind of accusing each other of a military buildup. And while there's a lot of physical evidence that shows Azerbaijan amassing troops and building military infrastructure, the same cannot be said of Armenia, who has--there's a local defense army in that area. Because, the area is sort of technically part of Azerbaijan, but is controlled by an ethnically Armenian population. And, so, part of this big military buildup is that there was this blockade put on, essentially, the only route in and out of this area, was just put on full military blockade. And there was a big humanitarian response to it because they're like, "You're cutting off 120,000 people from all external like food, and medical, and, you know, any kind of supplies, and, in some instances, water. And, there was this big mass starvation happening in this area. And, humanitarian aid convoys that were trying to go into the area were literally being shelled by Azerbaijan. Which eventually culminated in this full assault on September 19th. And, as it stands right now, there's...literally 120,000 people have gotten into their cars and are attempting to leave the area since the... **Brooke ** 05:37 That's a lot of people  **Inmn ** 05:38 Yeah, yeah.  **Margaret ** 05:41 There was a ceasefire or something, right?  **Inmn ** 05:44 There was a ceasefire, which called for the unconditional surrender of the defense army. So, it's now a completely civilian population. And, there has been a call for the reintegration of the Armenian population, which locally is being viewed as a death sentence to pretty much everyone. Because, in the past, reintegration attempts by Azerbaijan have resulted in things like mass torture and rape of civilians and POWs.  **Brooke ** 09:22 Wow.  **Inmn ** 09:23 Yeah. And, to complicate things even more, there's like a...You know, it's in the world view right now. And people are like...Like, other countries are like, "Oh, should we do something?" And weirdly, Russia has been the peacekeeping mediator between the two. **Brooke ** 09:43 What?  **Margaret ** 09:44 So, it's not good. They're not doing good things.  **Inmn ** 09:47 No, they're not doing good things. And, a lot of people suspect them of playing this double game because Russia has publicly supported Armenia in a lot of the disputes, but they are the main arms supplier to Azerbaijan. So, there's obviously a lot of strange conflict. They're essentially...the world at large is viewing them as playing one side against the other. So... **Margaret ** 10:19 So, I don't know as much about this part. I've only been learning about some of this stuff recently. But, Russia, in general, has its own kind of equivalent of NATO, like its power-block type thing. But, Armenia is basically being slowly, kind of, shunted out of it or given less and less say in it, is the impression that I'm under. And, so there's a lot of tension of how Armenia is a little bit more looking to the west or whatever in a way that Russia isn't stoked about. That's the--I'm not 100% certain about this--that's the understanding I've been kind of learning. **Inmn ** 10:58 Yeah, yeah. And so, kind of, one of the big pressing issues right now is what is going to happen to this mostly ethnically Armenian population that is...Like there's a 70 mile line of cars trying to flee the area. And like, yeah, yeah, obviously... **Brooke ** 11:22 Where are they headed towards? **Margaret ** 11:25 Armenia. **Inmn ** 11:26 Yeah. **Margaret ** 11:27 They're in the border region.  **Brooke ** 11:29 Going into Armenia? Not going out of Armenia?  **Margaret ** 11:31 Yeah. No, into. Because, what it is, is there is a border area and that border area, most of it is now controlled by Azerbaijan and was taken, I believe, during the conflict a couple of years ago. However, several of the cities, or several of the population centers, are primarily Armenian even though they're now technically part of Azerbaijan because of this conflict, right? And so they need to get the fuck out because they're going to be genocided. And, they're very aware of the fact that they are going to be genocided. And a lot of the rhetoric that is coming up is genocidal. And, Armenians are being like fairly blunt that, like, "If the world doesn't do something right now, we're going to die." Like, hundreds of thousands of people are going to fucking die. **Inmn ** 12:22 Yeah.  **Brooke ** 12:23 Wow.  **Inmn ** 12:24 Yeah, it's...it's really bad. Yeah, but yeah, that's all I have on that. Brooke, I have heard that there's also some pretty bad things happening in India and Libya? **Brooke ** 12:41 Yeah, well, I can tell you about India, anyway. Well, we talk a lot about, of course, climate events going on. And there's been a lot of stuff that we've talked about this summer with various climate catastrophes, wildness, unusual behavior. And I think it's pretty well known that we're in an El Nino situation right now. One of the countries that has been affected by climate catastrophe this year is India, especially in the northern regions where they do a lot of growing of food. And they have had really unpredictable rainfalls. In some places there's been severe flooding, and other places, there's been less rain than usual, which overall is leading to a lot of problems with a lot of crops. So, some of the food staples in India have seen significant increases in prices. Tomatoes and onions are things popularly used in Indian cooking, and they've seen a five to six times increase in the price for them. [Margaret goes "phew!"] Yeah, yeah, massive increases. And then, and this is then also related to war in Ukraine and wheat and grain prices. The chicken feed has gone up significantly, and chicken is a pretty common meat in a lot of dishes. But, then the chicken has become too expensive--to buy chicken. And to have chickens and feed them and butcher your own chickens has also become too expensive. So, that big source of protein is kind of off the menu in a lot of places too. So, some families are eating, you know, just mashed up vegetables is their whole meal for the day. Other places, they're making just--it's not naan but it's breads that are...roti. Roti breads. They just make some roti bread in the morning and that's all the family has to eat for the day is just bread. A lot of lower income families get a wheat subsidy from the government. They get so many pounds of wheat every month. But, it's not enough to last through the whole month. And of course they're not able to get enough wheat from other sources to even keep up with the levels of demand that people have in the country. So, inflation is making it much harder to buy goods. And, it's due to the climate catastrophe. And in fact, India has gone so far as to ban some exports like rice and sugar. Yeah, they've banned exports on those, which, of course, all of the places that might turn to rice as a grain source when wheat runs out then can't get the rice that they would usually get. Not that they're interchangeable, but, you know? And, in fact, India is looking at importing some things that it historically never has to import, like tomatoes from Nepal. They're looking at having to import those. So, yeah, you know, it's already a very impoverished country. So, India is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, having some trouble with the food staples there. And, not gonna get, you know, better anytime soon because, of course, they're crops that you harvest and that you store. So, rice, you know, being a big one, they're pulling in a smaller rice harvest. There's not enough to go around right now. And then everything that they would usually put in a long term storage, they don't have enough for that. So, there's going to be even more food insecurity down the road, unless they're able to find ways to import some of that and do it in a way that they can afford to do. **Brooke ** 16:58 One more component of that whole foods situation--it's not like the food supply-but speaking of Ukraine, is that India imports fuel from Ukraine. And I can't remember the kind. But, they haven't been able to get as much fuel as they usually would, and so people that use that for cooking, don't have don't have the ability to do as much cooking because they can't afford it or they can't get the fuel that they need in order to cook. **Margaret ** 17:37 It's funny because one of the things I'm sort of hoping we can start doing with a lot of things--obviously, we can do it with all things--is to sort of talk about how to mitigate these problems or how to help with these problems, you know? And there's like two different parts of it. And one is like, you know--and I don't have the research and I'm just like thinking about a way to try and do this--but it's, you know, we don't have a way to necessarily impact food prices in India and so then it's like, "Oh, well, there's the things that we can do here." And then it's like, well, overall, not entirely, but, overall, the average person in America is a lot more privileged. But then it's like...just things like how tomatoes and other crops are also being threatened a lot in the United States right now, and we're probably going to see food prices on a lot of these staple crops, like vegetables and things, go up--not to the same degree, not five or 6...you know, 500%, or whatever, in one year. And it's interesting because there's some of these things that are easier to grow at home, as compared to staple crops. Like, large copper hydrates, corn, wheat, rice, can be grown at home, but very...it's way more complicated. And, you're also very unlikely to have a climate where you can grow all three of those things instead of just one of those things. **Brooke ** 18:54 Yeah, in my heart, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, the solution to this is, you know, everybody should plant a garden." But, that's such a privileged thing to say, to assume that they have space, resources, good soil, you know, with a thousand things that actually tries to do that. **Margaret ** 19:12 Yeah. Yeah. Well... **Brooke ** 19:15 But, if you can garden, you should learn how to do something, plant something. **Margaret ** 19:22 No, I mean, even as a as a prepper, sometimes when something goes wrong for one of my friends, I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna get the thing that helps me if that goes wrong for me." I mean, I try and help them out first, right? But, you know, driving with someone and the muffler or the whole tailpipe detaches from their car, and they're like, "Oh, I need this metal strapping instead of, you know, I had like P-cord or something, right?" And now I have metal strapping in my car because why not? It's tiny and cheap and light, right? And that's not...this doesn't apply on a global level. I'm sorry everyone who's listening who's like, "Shut the fuck up." You're right. Okay, so we decided what we're gonna do is we're gonna do like foreign--foreign... [questions the phrasing] Whatever, international shit before we do shit that's like a little bit more...the shit that we already...the shit that's closer to home. So, the other big thing that I have from this year...from this month--Jesus Christ, it's been...this year...it's just not even.... [Pauses to rest] In Libya, the...Okay, there was a storm called Storm Daniel. And, it was the deadliest storm in the Mediterranean in recorded history. And, it happened on September 11th. Way higher count of dead people than anything--well, then the famous thing that happened on September 11th in United States. I don't know as much about the coup that happened on September 11th years ago. But, Storm Daniel, it's like...it's not a tropical storm because of like, it's not from the sparkling Champagne region of France or whatever...[Brooke laughs, getting the joke] Like...You know what I'm saying? [Affirmative noises] Like, in order for it to be a tropical storm it has to exist in this very specific way. But, it's like...it's a tropical storm, like in terms of its impact. Like, it's a sparkling nightmare. And, you know, so it's legally distinct. But, it hit a ton of Mediterranean countries, and it fucked a lot of things up. And, it most notoriously killed a fuck ton of people in Libya because there were these two aging dams outside of the city of Derna that broke on September 11th. The death toll is anywhere from 4,000 to 11,000 people with 9,000 people that are still missing, even though it's been several weeks. I believe that that 11,000 number includes those missing people. That's the best guess I can get. And, just basically a third of the city fucking washed out to sea. I'm being slightly hyperbolic. A third of the city was damaged and a fuck ton of it washed out into the sea. And...Yeah, the morgues were overfilled. Bodies were laid out in the main square on sidewalks. Eight people, eight officials have been arrested already over this, which is funny because it's better than what the United States would do, you know? And, we're all like, "Oh, look at these terrible, idiotic countries," or whatever. Like, no, they...So far, as of yesterday, as of recording, they've arrested eight people. **Inmn ** 22:32 Like on...because of...because of like what? Like preparation? **Margaret ** 22:36 Because they didn't fix the damn thing. Yeah, sorry. There are these two dams that for decades scientists...The dams were built in the 70's by, I want to say, a Turkish contractor. No, I'm not sure. A contractor from a different country. And, they've been showing signs of aging and they've just been unmaintained for like 50 years. And, in 2012-2013 $2 million was appropriated, like sent to fix them, but Libya has not been an incredibly stable place, and that money did not fix them. And so, yeah. Everyone was like...Scientists were sitting there being like, "There's a crack in this dam that's over the town. We should do something," and everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, totally." [In a tone suggesting they won't fix it] And, you know, I mean, that's, government for you? Like, like, you know? But, on the other hand...Whatever. Glad that people are at least trying to take it seriously. **Inmn ** 23:45 Sorry. Do you have more on that? **Margaret ** 23:47 No, no, let's talk about things in the Western world. **Inmn ** 23:50 Oh, yeah, I'm first. We'll start with the bad, unfortunately. So, the newest battleground for abortion access in Texas is that Texas is...There's this group of lawmakers who, you know, it's the same people who authored the Heartbeat Bill, who are trying to...Instead of making large state or national laws to target abortion, they're trying to target abortion on a very small level--which will have a huge and devastating impact--by building this network of what they call like "Sanctuary for the Unborn" cities. [Margaret scoffs] Yeah, no, it sounds pretty bad. And, so what they're doing is they're going to small towns, especially in West Texas, to try to get those towns to pass local ordinances that would create criminal penalties for traveling through those cities to access abortion care in states where abortion is still legal, like New Mexico. And, this is particularly impactful in West Texas because a lot of--there's a handful of new abortion clinics that have sprung up on the border of New Mexico and Texas specifically to serve people going from West Texas to New Mexico to access abortion care. And, two cities have passed the ordinances so far with as many as 51 cities who are thinking about it. And, the one currently in the news right now is Llano, Texas, which sits at an intersection of six different highways, including a pretty major highway, highway 87, which is a road that a lot of people who are going from Austin to New Mexico might use. And then there's a bunch of cities along I27 that have ordinances brewing for...similar ordinances. And, largely, though, what's interesting about this is that although two cities have passed this so far, there's a lot of conservative apprehension about passing these laws.  **Brooke ** 23:53 Really? **Inmn ** 24:23 And, this comes from...I think this comes from the intersection of like...these are probably more libertarian-minded people who think that it is an overreach for the government to create penalties based on travel, because they're worried about other ways that travel could be limited and for other reasons that travel could be limited. So, it's libertarians and conservatives who are not like...who are probably antiabortion, who probably support abortion bans, but they think that this kind of larger infrastructural travel thing goes way too far. So, there is a lot of conservative pushback from it, which is interesting. **Margaret ** 28:53 Okay, about abortion. Obviously, the State should not use--well, the State shouldn't exist--but, the State shouldn't use the Church or religious teachings in order to determine health care. I think that's a fairly understandable thing. However, if you, the listener, are religious in a Christian variety or if you want to argue with these people, this whole concept of being against abortion as a Christian is pretty fucking newfangled, is one of the things. The Church, the Catholic Church--which is a minority religion in the United States and is not a like primarily powerful force in the United States political sphere--the Catholic Church has only been against abortion since 1869. For almost all of the church's existence, abortion was only a problem during the third trimester after the Quickening, the Ensoulment, right, is what people want to argue about is like when a human gets a soul or whatever. And, until the late 19th century, the Ensoulment happened...people would argue either like...Most Jewish religious teaching, I believe, is that the Ensoulment--that's...I don't know if they use the word "Ensoulment''--but, the first breath of life, right? "You get your soul when your fucking born," is a very common traditional teaching. Also...Or, you get it at the Quickening, which is the fucking...like 24 weeks into pregnancy. And so, this whole idea of life beginning at conception is god damn new. All the people that the Catholics venerate didn't fucking believe that shit. And then, more than that, evangelicals, who are the main people pushing antiabortion shit, they didn't get into the shit until the 1970s. And they were like...basically were like, "Oh, how else can we be shitty?" And they were like, "Oh, we can be shitty by hating women. And so we're gonna fucking all of a sudden decide that we're against the following type of health care." I don't have as much of the facts about that in front of me, about exactly how that went, but basically, they joined...It used to be only the Catholics who were the people running around being shitty about abortion. And, I don't know. I, for some reason, I think that this matters...Like, just even in terms of like when you're talking about...Because people act like it's this like, "Well, I'm a Christian and therefore 2000 years of hating abortion," like that's just not the fucking case. **Inmn ** 31:17 Yeah, and even there was this one person in Llano, who was quoted as saying like--it was like a council person--who was like...she was like, "Yeah, I'm personally not in favor of abortion. But, I remember giving a friend, like picking up a friend from an abortion clinic in high school and like I didn't support it, but I picked them up. And, under this new law, I would be a criminal." So, what is interesting about this overstep to me is that it offers some ground for people to talk about things in a way that might not have been in the forefront before where like...Which is interesting. It's like the more that the government, or, you know, crazy far-right conservatives, overreach, it does have the potential to create these funny little fissures with, you know, just normal everyday people who are like, "Well, whoa, whoa, wait a second. Wait a second. I was against abortion, but this is looking more like Fascism." And, I think that is creating fissures, which is interesting. But... **Margaret ** 32:37 No, and it's good. That side should have fissures and we should make them...we should embiggen those fissures. There's a different word here.  **Brooke ** 32:46 I love it. **Inmn ** 32:51 But, yeah, that's mostly it for Texas. In a related note, Idaho recently became the first state to impose criminal penalties on people who help a minor leave the state for an abortion without parental consent, just as another wave of the war against abortion access. **Brooke ** 33:14 You know, this wasn't on my talking list, but, if I may, speaking of Idaho and abortion, I was reading about a lot of OB-GYN providers who are leaving Idaho in noticeable numbers, especially people who are specialists in like NICU care [Neonatal Intensive Care Unit] or early birth tiny baby death problem kind of things, those sort of high-level baby specialists, because they feel so at risk in Idaho that if something happens to a baby in their care, that they could be criminalized for it. I mean, they're taking jobs in other states and fleeing in such numbers that it's recognizable. And, there's some places that have--hospitals--in rural areas that have shut down their maternity wards. **Margaret ** 34:06 It's just so awful. **Inmn ** 34:09 Well, if state-by-state Christian nationalism bothered you, do I have some bad news, because recently it was unveiled that this horrifying thing called Project 2025, and it is a thousand page, essentially, playbook for conservative lawmakers to dismantle the federal government as it stands. And... **Margaret ** 34:40 Why do they always try to do the cool stuff? [Laughs at the dry joke] **Inmn ** 34:42 I know. I know. And, most of what they're looking at doing is completely dismantling the EPA and a lot of similar jobs that pertain to environmental regulation. But... **Margaret ** 34:54 Yeah, the stuff that we want to have keep happening once we have an organizational system instead of a government Yeah, I'm sure they're gonna keep the fucking cops and Border Patrol. Fuckers. Yeah. **Inmn ** 35:06 Yeah, it's pretty disconcerting. It's like trying...People view it as trying to pave the way for whatever the...whoever the next Republican president is to essentially become, you know a dictator in a more literal sense.  **Brooke ** 35:27 Well, the federal government is trying to fuck itself currently.  **Inmn ** 35:30 Oh, yeah?  **Brooke ** 35:31 If I can transition into that. Because, we are facing another federal government shutdown risk. [Makes an enthusiastic noise] **Margaret ** 35:42 Once again, they're gonna shut down the wrong parts of it, aren't they? **Brooke ** 35:44 Oh, yeah. Uh huh. They're gonna keep essential services, which is apparently not shit like OSHA, and Food and Drug inspections, and air traffic control. Those are not essential services. [Margaret laughing] **Margaret ** 35:58 I'm sure it's the goddamn Border Patrol and making sure poor people pay taxes and rich people don't. **Brooke ** 36:05 Yeah, shit like that. We talked about it one other time, government shutdowns on the show together, and in that context, it was talking about the debt ceiling, the government's self imposed limit on how much money they can borrow. And so, they were at risk of having to shut down because they weren't in agreement about being able to borrow more money. Well, this is the...now, we're facing the most beloved refuse-to-agree-on-a-budget federal government shutdown and fucking every time they have to redo the budget, it's always in the news, "Oh, it's gonna be a federal government shutdown!" And, sometimes it's more serious than others. So it's super hard to take it seriously. It hasn't really happened very many times that there's been a government shutdown. There was one that was back in like 2018-2019 that was 35 days or there abouts. And that one.... **Margaret ** 37:00 Which is the longest one in history?  **Brooke ** 37:02 Exactly. And that one was actually long enough to have an impact that mattered. If they have one right now, it's, you know, they probably won't have one there. And, if they do, it's going to be one of these stupid two or three day kind of things. It's really, really unlikely, because they just don't have the circumstances to have that long one happen again. If it did happen, and it goes on for a long time, then you get a lot of backups in the federal government. You have subsidy programs that won't send out payments, like SNAP benefits and Social Security benefits and housing assistance and financial aid for students. But again, it has to be a shutdown that's closer to a month long, because they're set up to do all of those payments, you know, for the next month. So, if they shut shut down today, October is all set to go and would automatically do its thing, and then November would be fucked if they stayed shut down. So, most likely not going to happen. If it does happen, probably a minimal one and longer interruptions. I guess if it happens and we're looking at a long one, we can talk about it some more and I can tell you all about what's actually going to go on and all the fucked-up-ed-ness. But, if you're seeing it in the news, it's just because this is the thing that the news likes to pick up right now and talk about this time of year. Yeah, don't stress out about it. Like, they fucking take the exact same article from the previous year and and, you know, move the paragraphs around. **Margaret ** 38:27 Well, it's like...it's like...Okay, it's like Covid. It's like...When Covid was first coming up, it was gonna be like another bird flu where we were like, "Oh, no, this thing that won't actually materially affect us that's just a news cycle panic thing." And then it's like every now and then it's a Covid, you know? And, eventually, it might be a Black Death and we're fucked, right? But, most of the time, when there's like...Like I still...Like, even as I was skimming there was some like, "new superbug" in such-and-such place and I'm like, "I'm not worried," right? Like, it's either...It's either gonna be real bad or it's not. But, there's a new one of those to worry about every fucking month. And, so, that makes sense about government shutdown being that it could be real fucking bad, but it usually isn't. Yeah. **Brooke ** 39:19 The worst that it's ever been still wasn't really that bad. I think things got really fucked up for, you know, about a month after they got back online. And then there were some other things that had delays, you know, applications and shit that they didn't process and then had like a backlog of and whatever. But, the biggest thing that could be an impact, that could, even if it's a short one, could be air travel, because the TSA doesn't get paid. And the last time they had a long one, the TSA agents were like, "No, we're not gonna stay here and work for free." And, they fucked off and went and drove Uber. And whatever. **Margaret ** 39:53 Yeah, I mean, there was a whole constitutional amendment about how you can't make people work without giving them money unless they're in prison. **Brooke ** 39:53 The government begged them and they're like, "Please, please. We know you'll...We'll figure it out. Please do it for free? You'll get back pay!"  **Margaret ** 40:08 And they're like "Nah, we fought a war over this." **Brooke ** 40:09 People are like, "I don't need back pay. I need money now." **Margaret ** 40:11 Yeah, if the economy wasn't trashed it wouldn't be a big deal. Everyone's paycheck-to-paycheck, even the fucking middle class, so what the fuck are you gonna do? **Inmn ** 40:22 Yeah. Which is...This is a whole thing. But, um, did you know that billionaires are putting a huge amount of energy and time into trying to figure out how to keep security forces loyal to them when money doesn't exist anymore? **Margaret ** 40:38 I think we've talked about this, haven't we?  **Inmn ** 40:39 I think a little bit. We've touched on it.  **Margaret ** 40:41 Maybe I just talk about it all the time. It just comes up at every dinner. **Inmn ** 40:47 Yeah, yeah. It's wild. It is a huge thing on billionaires minds right now is not getting killed by everyone when the...when civilization collapses. **Margaret ** 40:59 Yeah, specifically, how to get to their security...Yeah, how to get their security guards to like...In their doomsday shelter where they're like, "How will I still be in charge of my doomsday shelter when there's no outside world?" Like, well, you won't. You'll be dead and everyone will be glad. **Brooke ** 41:14 This is why I say "Start early and eat the rich." I've got a solution for India. **Margaret ** 41:21 Also, it's vegan to eat the rich because...Because veganism is a relationship to power, right? And so it's not actually...It's like you can't be speciesist against humans, right? So, you are not oppressing oppressed animals if you eat billionaires. **Brooke ** 41:41 Thank you. I feel even better about that. **Margaret ** 41:45 It might not be vegetarian, but it is vegan. [everyone laughing] **Inmn ** 41:50 Brooke, do you have any other things to tell us? [Nervously laughing] **Margaret ** 41:56 Before it goes over to me? [Laughing] **Brooke ** 41:58 My one other thing to say to you is "Don't talk to cops." Okay, go on. **Margaret ** 42:02 Okay, let's see. I got some bad stuff, some good stuff. Well, in good news, it was the hottest August on record all across the world.  So, get your bathing suits ready, including in the other hemisphere where it was supposed to have been Winter, but it wasn't. Everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, hottest August. I mean, it's fucking August." Like, no, you motherfucker, it's Winter somewhere when it's August.  **Brooke ** 42:28 Margaret, do you know it's September though? Like just checking. **Margaret ** 42:34 I'll take your word for it. The leaves are turning where I live. Okay, so there's like, we had the hottest August, we had the hottest July, and we had the hottest June. We also had five months in a row of the hottest global surface sea temperatures, like each month it hits a new record that is hotter than the one previously. Overall, our August was 2.25 degrees Fahrenheit, like 1.25 Celsius, I think, over the 20th century average.  **Brooke ** 43:03 We did it!  **Margaret ** 43:04 Yeah, exactly. But, don't worry, all of this rising sea temperature actually will make tropical storms, and sparkling storms, rarer. This surprised me. It'll make them rarer. But, it'll make them more powerful. So hurricanes, more common. But, tropical storms and sparkling storms, less common because a higher percentage of them will destroy things in their wake. **Brooke ** 43:33 Okay, but on net because there's less of the other kind, we should just average out to be fine, right? That's what I hear you saying, one's worse, ones...not. **Margaret ** 43:37 Yes, absolutely. It's a good time to get a yacht. And I know who has yachts. They are people who you can eat, ethically. And, if you want to get to the ocean to get some yachts, you can go down the Mississippi River. Except, did y'all hear that? It's not in the fucking national news at all. Did you hear that New Orleans is having a water crisis?  **Brooke ** 43:40 No, I didn't hear about that.  **Margaret ** 43:44 They're gonna have to be shipping in millions of gallons of water to New Orleans for people to drink. Because--and this is not certain. This is looming. This is today's news, like past couple days news. All of the drought that has been happening this year has the Mississippi so fucking low that there's basically backwash from the sea coming up into it. And, so all of the saltwater is going to fuck up southern Louisiana's plumbing, right? And, also fuck up--and you can't, you can't boil advisory saltwater. Off the top of my head, if you are stuck with saltwater, your best bet for desalination is building a solar still or some other kinds of still. Be very careful. If you purchase a still. You can buy them on Amazon. Most of the things you can do with stills are incredibly illegal and will get the ATF paying attention to you. However, I don't know, if I was in New Orleans right now, I'd probably buy a fucking still. Just in case. Because, you can distill water and then the brackish water stays in the bottle. Whatever. Anyway, people can fucking do their own research about that or listen to us talking about this on this very show. So, New Orleans is trying to head this off. And, one of the things that's worth understanding is that there are people who try to stop this stuff and they are worth celebrating, even if they're like the federal government or whatever, right? Like, the US Army Corps of Engineers just built a 25 foot underwater levee to try and stop the backwash of saltwater into the Mississippi. It is not enough. Right? As of this morning's news anyway, it's not enough.  **Brooke ** 43:44 Wait, how much of a levy [misheard levee as levy] was it? Did you say in price or volume?  **Margaret ** 45:45 25 Feet. **Brooke ** 45:46 Oh, feet. **Margaret ** 45:48 The height of it. Yeah, it's 25 feet from the river bottom up levee.  **Brooke ** 45:55 And that's not enough?  **Margaret ** 45:57 No. Yeah. And, okay, so that happened. And that's one of the ones that like...Yeah, I've been struggling to find anything about it besides hearing from people in New Orleans. But, it's a big fucking deal. Because, we also within the United States have these places where people don't pay attention. One of the other places that people don't pay attention to is the border. We sometimes pay attention to the border because we care and we're aware of this monstrous humanitarian crisis caused by the United States government and its policies that's happening at the border, you know? And all of this cruelty and racism that's happening. But, one of the things I want to talk about--because no episode could be complete without some micro rant. And don't worry, my weird thing about theology is not going to be my micro rant for this week. Although, this one's actually probably shorter than my one about fucking theology. I've had a weird month of research. So, all of this bad shit's happening at the border. We are still in a border crisis. There's a lot of families that are trapped between two walls at the southern border. And, these are people who are trying to come as refugees, trying to do the thing that right wingers are like, "Well, if they just came properly like my great grandparents, who totally came before there was even fucking immigration policies, then it would be totally fine." Because, P.S., if you're white, there's a very good chance that your ancestors came before there was any kind of immigration. They probably literally just got off a boat. Anyway. So, there's all these people and there's all these people fucking trying to...not trying to. There's all these people feeding and clothing and providing phone charging services and shit for these people. And, what's kind of cool, is I'm aware of three groups that are doing this outside of San Diego right now. And, they kind of run the gamut, right? You've got the Free Shit Collective, whose logo has 1312 in it. And then you have the American Friends Service Committee, the Quakers. And then, in the middle, you have Border Kindness, who are another group. And so, whatever your flavor of mutual aid is, you fucking go support it. I say support all of them. And let's continue to build good interconnectedness between all of the people who are trying to do good right now. Because, much how even though Gondor did not come to Rohan's aid, it was still very important for the Riders of Rohan to show up to support Gondor when Mordor was attacking them. And, even the Ents, who also had been not treated well by the humans, and the dwarves, and the elves, you know, all come together, right, to fight against the United States government, which is Mordor. And... **Inmn ** 48:49 I'm so excited to transcribe this. **Margaret ** 48:54 You're the only transcript person who will be able to spell any of these things. And so, to that, I want to say, okay, because I was thinking about how we're always like, "Oh, God, we're gonna go talk about a bunch of bad shit." And I know people who listen to our show but don't listen to this episode every month, right? And because it's a series of bad things. And, the thing that I've been thinking about that is that I'm like, but there's all these good things that happen. But, most good things that happen aren't like, "And then there was 100 years of peace and everyone had happy, idyllic lives," right? That is a rare, random thing that some people are lucky enough to live lives of peace, you know? But, that is not what the average human experiences. And I refuse to believe that the average human experience is negative because bad things are always happening. And what makes our lives good, is how we choose to act against that bad. May we view ourselves as lucky that we are born in these times. May we view ourselves as lucky that we can join in the Rider of Rohan and, "A red day, a blood day. Death, death, death!" Although, that's actually...that's actually...I hate when the movie gets things better than the books, but that's a fucking sick speech andonly parts of it are from the books. And, also Tolkien totally cribbed this way older Norse poem about like, "Shields will be splintered..." Whatever. Anyway. "Wolf Time?" I...Fuck, I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, bad things are always happening, **Brooke ** 50:33 Margaret, can I just say that I love you. **Margaret ** 50:34 Aw, I love y'all too. Bad shit's always happening. But, look at these three different groups that are working together to fight this. And what can be more beautiful than that, right? And, they support each other and they talk about each other as all doing good things together. I'm sure that there's some fucking beef between them. And I don't know about it because I'm not there. And that's what you should do with beef, is people should know about it locally, but it's no one's business at the wider world. So, you should support these people, is what I'm trying to say. It's the Free Shit Collective, it is Border Kindness, and it is the American Friends Service Committee. However, if you go to support the American Friends Service Committee, you need to look specifically for their San Diego chapter and for the group of them that is working on border stuff, rather than it just going to the Quakers at large, who are perfectly fine even though they invented the penitentiary, but it's only sort of their fault. Okay, the other thing, the actual just like straight up good news that I have is that the Writers Guild has reached a tentative agreement after 150 days of strike. By the time you all are hearing this, maybe the agreement will probably have either been accepted or not accepted, right? So, either the strike will be over or the strike will be back and everyone's more bitter. But, this is a really beautiful strike and it captured the nation's attention partly because these people know how to write. And, they're also the people who produce the stuff that entertains us, right? And so we're very aware of it. But, that does not make it a less...it actually makes it a more impactful strike because it allows all the rest of us to know that we can strike too. And, absolutely, on the other side, the bosses were out for blood. They were constantly saying like, "We are going to do this until the writers are homeless. We don't care," you know? And, they can say that all they want, but it's a little early to say and you all will either be like "What a naive summer child, saying that." But, it looks like we might win. And when I say, "we," I mean the working class, which is the people who work for a living. It's not about the actual income you make. Middle-class people are often working class. It just depends on whether your money comes from being a fucking landlord or whether it comes from fucking working. Did you all know that "summer child" is also a science fiction reference, or a fantasy reference. Did you know this?  **Inmn ** 53:00 Oh, sort of.  **Margaret ** 53:02 It comes from "Game of Thrones." Everyone thinks that it is an old timey southern saying.  **Brooke ** 53:09 It's not?  **Margaret ** 53:10 It's not. It's from fucking :Game of Thrones.: It doesn't exist before like the mid or late 90s or whatever the fuck that book came out. Because it means... **Inmn ** 53:21 Sorry, this is maybe dashing a thing, but this has literally happened throughout history, like literature inventing funny phrases. I don't think you're saying something negative about it, but Shakespeare is credited with like...It's some horrifying number of words that are in common use right now that didn't exist before. **Margaret ** 53:47 Yeah. And all the sayings and shit all come from him. Or, they come from his like social circle and he's the one who wrote them down... **Inmn ** 53:52 Totally.  **Margaret ** 53:52 ...you know, which also rules. Okay, and then to wrap up news stuff. Okay. There's also, you know how fracking sucks, where people try to get the last little bits of fossil fuels out so that we can turn the Earth into a furnace instead of living decent lives?  **Brooke ** 54:10 Yeah. Defs.  **Margaret ** 54:12 Well, have you all heard of monster fracking? It's not where they use Monster energy drinks. It should be, because that's the only good use for it. **Brooke ** 54:19 Okay, no, I haven't heard of it. **Inmn ** 54:24 Is it releasing monsters from the ground through fracking? **Margaret ** 54:28 Oh, that would be good too. That would actually...I'm entirely in favor of...I mean, Godzilla was originally an anti-nuclear movie. **Brooke ** 54:35 Do they use monsters to do the fracking? **Margaret ** 54:38 No, it's just monstrously large. It's this like mega fracking. It's just where they go and dig wells in order to get enough water. They drain entire aquifers in order to get the last little bits of fucking gas out of the ground. And, this is how it happened. And so, water usage in fracking has gone up seven times since 2011. Since 2011, fracking has used 1.5 trillion gallons of water, which is a lot. It's not...It's a fucking lot. That's what all of Texas uses as tap water for an entire year.  **Brooke ** 55:22 Aquifers? Or the amount of water used?  **Margaret ** 55:25 The amount of water used. And, overall, Americans are using up their aquifers very quickly. But, again, it's this kind of like, "Oh, so don't drink as much water." Like, no, it's monster fracking that is the problem. It is growing the wrong food in the fucking desert that is the problem. **Brooke ** 55:45 But, aquifers are unlimited? [said sarcastically] **Margaret ** 55:47 I mean, it's funny because I live on a well and that's kind of how I feel. Like, it's not true. And, the water drilling, like water drilling, is actually not federally regulated. It's state-by-state. And, a lot of states literally are like, "You're just allowed to do it until there's no more water." You are allowed to frack with water during moderate and severe droughts, anything but extreme is before they start putting any limitations on fracking. So, you are well past the part where you can't water your lawn--which is ,you know, whatever, fucking lawn--but well past the point where you can't water a lawn or wash your car, they're allowed to frack completely unimpeded. And, in Utah, California, and Texas, there have been buckled roads, cracked foundations, and fissures into the earth because of depleted groundwater. And let's see, one oil region in Texas has seen their aquifer falling at 58 feet a year. Last year was the lowest groundwater in US history. And, this affects everything, right? Kansas' corn yields last year were fucked up because its aquifer wasn't...for the first time, it wasn't enough for the agriculture of its region. So, I think they had to import water but also just didn't get to use enough water, so their corn yields were down. And as we've hinted...we've talked about a lot in the show, we overproduce like cereal grains. Not over produce. We produce a fuck ton of cereal grains in this country. So, we actually haven't seen--we've seen prices go up--but we haven't really seen a ton of shortages and stuff yet. This continues to be a threat. I feel a little bit like the girl cries wolf about this where I'm like, "Oh, like, you know, Kansas' corn yields are down," but you can still like go to the store and buy corn tortillas, right? Here. You know, other parts of the world are not so lucky. Anyway, that's what I got. **Brooke ** 57:49 Okay, let me roll up my sleeves and go on my indigenous rant about water protection and sacredness. Now we're out of time. I'm going to do next time. I'm going to open with that next time.  **Inmn ** 58:00 Do it. Do it anyway! **Brooke ** 58:03 Water is sacred. Water is life, motherfuckers. Okay, that's my rant. **Margaret ** 58:08 That's a good rant. **Inmn ** 58:09 Solid. I have some little bitty headlines. Does anyone else have a little bitty headlines? **Margaret ** 58:17 I think I threw most of mine in what I just did. **Inmn ** 58:19 Cool. Before we wrap up, I have a couple little bitty headlines, a handful of which are good. **Margaret ** 58:26 Oh, I have two good ones at the end. **Inmn ** 58:28 Wonderful. So, the first one is a bad one, which is, as Margaret brings up the US-Mexico border...This one actually shocked me. Not because I am unaware of how bad it is, but because I don't know, I think I maybe thought there were places that were worse. I don't know. But, the UN declared that the US-Mexico border is the deadliest land migration route in the world recently.  **Margaret ** 58:55 Jesus. You're right. That's exactly it. Your response is exactly what I thought. **Inmn ** 59:01 Yeah. With...And this is last year, so 2022, with 686 people or migrants died in the desert last year on the US-Mexico border. And, it's a number that like...it's a number that is vastly under reported on. Like having done a lot of humanitarian aid work along the US-Mexico border, that is a horribly underreported number. But, in a kind of cool thing, a federal judge ordered that the death buoys in the Rio Grande be removed, which is...that's cool. [Brooke yays] **Margaret ** 59:44 Haven't they not done it yet? They like ordered it removed, but they still are kind of kicking their heels or there was some other....  **Inmn ** 59:52 I don't know.  **Margaret ** 59:53 Nevermind. I only know the headline level. **Inmn ** 59:56 Me too. A gay couple in Kentucky was recently awarded $100,000 in a settlement over a county clerk's refusal to issue them a marriage license. **Margaret ** 1:00:08 Hell yeah. Fuck that clerk. **Inmn ** 1:00:10 Yeah, pretty cool. **Brooke ** 1:00:11 Gonna be a nice wedding now. **Margaret ** 1:00:14 I hope it's at the house that that guy no longer lives at. I hope they just gave them his house. **Inmn ** 1:00:21 There were five cops indicted over the Tyre Nichols murder in September, which is, you know, also pretty cool.  **Brooke ** 1:00:37 Is eating cops vegan? **Margaret ** 1:00:42 Probably. I mean, you could make an argument that eating any human is vegan because of the speciesism line, but it's certain with billionaires. Cops, like, you know, I mean, I eat honey, so who am I to like really police the lines of veganism? It's like cops are probably like the equivalent of honey, you know? Or, like those sea animals that don't have central nervous systems that can't feel pain. I don't think cops can feel pain. So, I don't think that it's immoral to hurt or eat...This is the sketchiest thing I've ever said on the show. **Brooke ** 1:01:16 So, I can still make a BLT then. Ethically sourced bacon. **Inmn ** 1:01:24 Speaking of cops, I have one last headline on cops, which I realized that we track a lot of...we track a lot of death. And, a lot of those deaths are in our communities or in communities that our communities are either in community with or would be in community with, and I thought it might be interesting to start tracking the number of cops that die every month. **Brooke ** 1:01:52 Oh, that's a joyous headline. **Inmn ** 1:01:55 And, it was only seven in September, mostly from vehicle related accidents.  **Margaret ** 1:02:03 That doesn't surprise me.  **Inmn ** 1:02:04 Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. And, there were 86 this year.  **Margaret ** 1:02:11 86 cops... **Inmn ** 1:02:11 Yeah, 86 cops. [Not getting that it's a joke] **Margaret ** 1:02:14 Eh, eh? Like, when there's no more in the kitchen and we gotta stop serving them...Anyway. **Inmn ** 1:02:21 And one of them was from a train. That's my headline. Is this sketchy to say? I don't know. **Margaret ** 1:02:33 I don't know, I mean, whatever. They...It's still safer than almost every job in America. Well, there's a list of the most dangerous jobs and they're like...they're not at the bottom of the list, but they are nowhere near the top of the list. Okay, the two headlines I got...Call me a future-believer person. In July...Okay, last December there was the fusion test where they actually successfully, I believe for the first time ever, got more power out of a fusion test than they put into it. For anyone who's...like nuclear bombs and shit is fission power, right? And it's one interesting way to make electricity that has a lot of side effects. Fusion power is what the sun does. And seeking cold fusion has been like the holy grail of science for a very long time, because that's when you can have gay space communism. Or, knowing our society, slightly gay capitalism in space or whatever the fuck horrible thing they come up with. But, they've been trying since December to repeat that. And, in July, they got even more power out of a fusion experiment. They, I think they more than doubled what they put into it or...I remember exactly. They got a fuck ton of power out. They've also failed numerous times since then. But, this is still incredibly promising from my point of view. I personally believe that deindustrialization and things like that are essential, but I'm not...I think having some electricity around is quite grand. And, if there's a way we can do it ethically, and environmentally sound, and it doesn't explode the entire world...Like, who knows what fusion will do? Maybe people will just explode the whole world? And I'll be like, "Oops, sorry," but, I won't because I'll be dead. And, whatever, that's how we all end up anyway. And then the other one is that--and actually just speaking of sort of vaguely green but not green ecotech news--there have been a bunch of studies about electric cars. Because, everyone's very aware of how shitty lithium mining and all that stuff is, all of the minerals that are used in the batteries, right? And, it started reaching the point where actually, it's actually been stopping the electric car adoption in some ways is because people are like, "Well, it's so fucking bad that I'm just gonna go back to my, you know, my fossil fuels car." And, so they tested it and it is still, in terms of embedded greenhouse gases and like impact on the environment, driving electric cars, even though all of the mining practices are fucked up, is still less fucked up for the earth than driving a fossil fuel car. Obviously, I think that we should be moving towards mass transit models and more local stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, electric cars are better than gas cars is my take and the take of some recent science, at least in terms of the impact on the climate. Kind of wish that wasn't the note I was ending on, but... **Inmn ** 1:05:36 Wait, I have a cool note. I forgot one. I feel like this is a mixed bag of a thing, but I...Whatever, reform is complicated. But, if there are things that impact people's lives on a material level now like that's cool. Illinois just became the first state to abolish cash bail. [Cheers] Which, I think, is more complicated than a lot of people think. Like, it could have...it could have bad side effects, which is there being...Like, specifically, there's violent and nonviolent...It splits it into violent and nonviolent crimes. And, if you have a nonviolent crime, you basically won't go to jail until you're convicted of a crime that requires you to go to jail, But, for violent crimes you are stuck in jail. And, it's in that, which is how the State defines violence, which makes it complicated. So, you know, for instance, like buddies...like, you know, folks down in Cop City who have been booked on domestic terrorism charges, those people, if a similar thing existed in Georgia, would be stuck in jail throughout their trial without the option of bail. So, this is the kind of complication of no cash bail. But, a really cool thing is that it will get a lot of people out of...Anyone who's in awaiting trial can now petition to be released. **Brooke ** 1:07:22  Oh, wow. **Inmn ** 1:07:23 Which is the really cool part about. Yeah, so that's my ending note. Thanks y'all for being here.  **Margaret ** 1:07:37 Yep.  **Inmn ** 1:07:42 And if you enjoyed this podcast, go join the Riders of Rohan, not just for Gondor but for all of the free peoples of Middle Earth. But, if you want...Also, if you liked this podcast, you should, you know, like, and review, and rate, and I don't know what any of these things actually are. I'm just saying words. But, tell people about the podcast. And you can also support this podcast by supporting its publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers is a media publishing collective. We put out books, zines, and other podcasts like Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchistic literature or the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is a great show for people who love movies and hate cops. And, you can find our Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And, we would like to shout out a few wonderful people in particular. Thank you, Eric, Perceval, Buck, Jacob, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Janice & O'dell, Aly, Paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Michaiah, and the eternal Hoss the Dog. We hope everyone's doing as well as they can and we'll see you next time. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Blix, a river guide. They talk about the utility of packrafting, the joys and travails of river travel, the state of waterways in the western United States, and how river guides might have the best names for the worst things. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Blix on Packrafting **Inmn ** 00:16 Hello, and welcome to Live Like The World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Inmn, and I'm your host for today. Today I'm being joined by my friend Blix, who is a river guide, and we're going to talk about something that I've been really entranced by but know nothing about and I'm a little terrified by. And that is, traveling on rivers with boats and why it might be a good or bad idea during different emergent disasters. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Net of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo doo [Singing the words like an upbeat melody] **Dissident Island Radio ** 01:08 Listen in to Dissident Island Radio live every first and third Friday of the month at 9pm GMT. Check out www.dissidentireland.org for downloads and more. **Inmn ** 01:58 And we're back. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and what you do in the world? You know, not in an existential sort of way, but what is your connection to packrafting. **Blix ** 02:19 My name is Blix. I use she/they pronouns. I am a river guide in Dinosaur National Monument on the Green River. I like to do more things than just river stuff. I'm really into cycling, and gaming, and anything that gets me outside, but river stuff recently has been my main hobby and passion at the moment. Yeah, what was the last one? What is my "what?" **Inmn ** 02:49 What do you...What is your existential purpose in the world [laughing/joking] **Blix ** 03:02 [Stammers while laughing] I'd like to survive. Yeah. The last one was my connection to packrafting. So initially, I got into river...I mean, I've been doing river stuff since I was a kid. I grew up in northeast Iowa, which is not known for anything river related. Or I mean, there are rivers there, but not in the sense that...not the big water and rapid stuff that you typically hear about with river travel or river hobbies, but I grew up kayaking and canoeing. And then I got a packraft four years ago and I've done a couple pack rafting trips since then. Overnighters. And yeah, I think that was kind of the gateway craft that led me to wanting to be a guide. **Inmn ** 04:02 Yeah, it's funny. I can tell if you were being sarcastic about Idaho rivers **Blix ** 04:08 No, Iowa, Iowa.  **Inmn ** 04:10 Ohhh.  **Blix ** 04:11 Yeah, no. Idaho is very well known for rivers. Yeah, no, Iowa is not...You don't think, "Whoa the rivers in Iowa are amazing." But Idaho, definitely. **Inmn ** 04:25 Yeah, there is--maybe it's not Iowa that I'm thinking of--that it's bordered on each side by rivers. Is that true? **Blix ** 04:35 There's the Mississippi on the east and then on the west I think there is a river but I can't remember... Maybe the Sioux River. **Inmn ** 04:45 Yeah or something. Because there's the...I only know this because of going on bike tour and encountering this bike bro who let us sleep at his house. He just saw us on bikes and was like, "Come over, fellow bike tourists." And we're like, "You know, we need showers." And he told us about something called like, Ragbra... **Blix ** 05:05 Ragbrai. I like Ragbra better. Yeah, yeah. RagBrai is riding from the west side of Iowa to the east, and it changes...the route changes every year. But, I've actually never done it.  **Inmn ** 05:23 It did not really sound fun. Very drunken. **Blix ** 05:25 No, I think it...Yeah. As someone who does not drink, it sounds like my worst nightmare. So, **Inmn ** 05:32 Yeah. But anyways, what...So what is packrafting? **Blix ** 05:38 Yeah, packrafting...So, it's a very specific type of craft where you can deflate it and it's pretty much...the way that I've used it, I've strapped it to the front of my bike. You can shove it in backpacks. It can be made very small, and then when you inflate it, some models of pack rafts, you can take your gear and shove them inside the tubes of the craft so you don't have like a pile of gear on your boat.  **Inmn ** 05:51 Like inside the inflatable part of it?  **Blix ** 06:15 Yes, yep. So I've had friends who've done the Grand Canyon in packrafts--which is nuts and also very impressive to me--but yeah, you can put stuff in the tubes. When you want to get it out, you have to deflate it, obviously. But, you put it all in there, inflate it, you can take it downriver. I know people who've carried a ton of gear, like 50 pounds. I know people who've gone hunting with them. You can obviously, I'm sure you've seen, you can strap your bikes to the front of them as well. **Inmn ** 06:50 This was actually my first question is if you can strap it to your bike, can you also somehow take your bike down river? **Blix ** 06:58 Yeah, yeah, it's...I have a lot of opinions about taking bikes--I think it depends on the river and also your bike. The thing with attaching a bike to a water vessel and then floating down a river is it's really exposed to all the elements. And, bikes and water don't...Like, you don't want to submerge your bike in water. There's a lot of issues that can arise from that. So, it's really hard on your bike. And also it makes the packraft hard to maneuver--obviously because you have this big heavy weight in the front--but you can take the front wheel off your bike, put it on top of the frame, and then you can use straps, and they have strap loops, and--trying to think the word of it--they have places where you can take straps and like loop your bike around so it is fully attached to your packraft. **Inmn ** 07:51 Cool. My first impression from hearing about packrafting is, one, that is exactly what I was hoping it would be. But, I guess some questions within that are that it seems highly versatile or mobile. Which, the the thing about boats that I've always thought is boats are really cool and they're really big and you're kind of tied to a boat, and you're stuck on that body of water where the boat is. But, with this, it seems like you can pretty easily be on the river and then decide to leave the river and take the boat with you? **Blix ** 08:35 Yes, yep. And I think that's why they're so popular. I think they're also more affordable. But, it's a multimodal way to navigate places. And yeah, they've exploded in popularity. And it's kind of funny because packrafts themselves--like there's always been smaller crafts like kayaks and inflatable kayaks--but the packraft is kind of this new concept that's come about where you can pack your gear in the tubes and it packs up super small. Whereas kayaks are this big hard thing of plastic that you have to lug around. You know, same with canoes or even inflatable kayaks. Like, those don't deflate to a point where you'd want to carry them in anything. They're so heavy. So packrafts are kind of this ultralight thing that's come on to the river scene and a lot of parks and monuments--at least the monument I work in, they're not sure what to do with them. They're very particular about...like if you go pack rafting down the river, you have to have a bigger support boat. Like you can't just take your pack raft down the river because it's a single chamber. So, it's just like one...When you inflate it, the whole thing inflates. Whereas, normal rafts...I have another bigger raft. It has four different...or excuse me, mine has two chambers. Giant rafts, like 18 foot rafts, have four chambers and then the floor that inflates. So, the thing with packrafts is if you like pop it or tear it, it's going to be a bad day. And that's, I guess, my only issue with them. But, everything else is great, like how light they are. The trips I've done with packrafts and bikes and anything else, it's really nice to not be lugging around a gigantic raft and all this gear. And, it keeps you from overpacking. **Inmn ** 10:26 Yeah, how small is, "small?" and how light is, "light?" Like, does this fit in your hiking pack? **Blix ** 10:34 Yes, yeah, it could fit in a backpack. Like my handlebars on my bike, it fits in between the grips. Like that's how small it is. I think it packs down to like 8-10 pounds. Like it's, it's still a heavy piece of gear but nothing like a huge 2000 pound raft. You know, to me, I'm like, "Wow, this is very light and small." And then as far as like when you're sitting in it, they make different lengths. But, when I'm sitting in my packraft my feet go all the way to the front of it. And I can't think of how...They would probably be like four feet? Three feet? I don't know. I guess I've never measured mine. I just know that I fit in it. I'm not really a dimensions person. I just know that it's light and it's small. So like really specific stuff--I guess I do know how long my big raft is...But, yeah, with packrafts it's just you in the...Like, there's no room really to put other gear. You can shove stuff up by your feet and behind you, but the main idea is you're putting all of it in the tubes. **Inmn ** 11:40 Yeah, okay. Yeah, I guess hearing that their downfall, I guess, or thing that makes them maybe not a great idea is that they can get punctured. Is that something that's likely to happen. Like, can they get punctured easily? Like, how durable are they? **Blix ** 12:00 I guess the story that comes up is that I went on the Salt River this past spring. That's a river in northeast Arizona. There's like a--It's not the tubing section that everyone thinks about. It's like--whenever I tell people that, they're like, "What? You went whitewater on..." And I'm like, "No." There's an upper section that's a solid class 4 river--which, I suppose I should explain classes maybe after...If you're curious. But yeah, okay. But, basically, the story is we were portaging around this big rapid because I didn't feel comfortable running it. It was the end of the day. And portaging is just finding a route that we're able to walk and carry all our gear. Which, wasn't easy because we were in a very steep narrow canyon. But yeah. Someone dropped their packraft on a cactus, which, you know, you'd think--they popped bike tubes--but, their packraft had multiple holes that needed to be patched. Whereas my...I think the rafts are made of different materials...Like, my raft compared to a packraft...Because the packraft is so light, I don't think they can use as heavy duty material. I know people--and from my own experience--one of our packrafts has like gotten rubbed from paddling. Like the paddle rubbed the side and the side could get rubbed raw and then start to leak air. And I do know a lot of folks with packrafts that have a lot of patches. But, I also know...like this is where it comes into play that you need to be good at not just knowing how to paddle a raft but how to like read a river and know how to navigate water and know what hazards are, because, especially in a packraft, it's such...Like you don't want to tear it. Like even in my raft, I don't want to have a tear, but if you puncture your packraft in a significant way it's gonna sink or just be in a really bad spot. And you're going to be...because it is a single chamber and all your gear is in it...Like, that's a huge risk.  **Inmn ** 14:11 So you might just lose every...  **Blix ** 14:13 You might lose everything. And, I think you would have to mess up significantly for that to happen. But, just knowing certain hazards that I've encountered on rivers and things I've heard from other people...The material my boat's made of is this hypalon. It's really thick. Like. I've rammed it into rocks and like, it's been fine, but I also know if you hit things a certain way the like...like it's almost like a knife has cut through your boat. And I just think yeah, it would just be really...I would be really nervous and a packraft because of the single chamber aspect where if it pops, the whole thing is deflating. Whereas with my boat, if one of my tubes pops, I still have another tube that will stay inflated and I could maybe keep getting down the river...and not lose all my gear. **Inmn ** 15:03 Yeah, yeah. And so I guess with inflatable kayaks, are those usually more durable? Or like have more chambers? **Blix ** 15:13 They have...Each side is a chamber and then the floor is a chamber. The packraft floor is also...Wow, sorry, I usually take my big boat out, so I'm trying...I haven't taken my packraft out in a minute, but, yeah, it's just a big single chamber. But, I know that they're making very sturdy packrafts that can go down class five, like really intense whitewater, that are super durable and capable boats. And I think the technology is getting better because it's becoming so popular. **Inmn ** 15:16 That makes sense. Yeah, I imagine in most things, there's the really dinky one that for maybe nothing more than casual water. **Blix ** 16:02 Yep. No. And it definitely depends. Like, even different companies within the packrafting world use different material. And you can tell just by quality, what's going to be more durable than others. But, inflatable kayaks they are...like you can...We call them duckies. I'm not actually sure why we call them duckies. I've never actually thought about that. Inflatable kayak duckies. But they're very--you can't pack anything in them. So it would just all be shoved at the front of this massive pile. So I think--and also duckies, I don't...They just don't navigate the water as well because they're so long. They just are very awkward to sit on. **Inmn ** 16:46 So, what is involved in planning a river trip, whether that's--I guess specifically in a packraft--but in any kind of river transit with camping situation? **Blix ** 17:01 Yeah, I think it's very similar to backpacking and bike packing in the gear you would take. You can't bring anything super bulky. You have to think about what you can fit in your tubes. A big thing that I look at when I'm planning a river trip are rapids, if there are any, what classes they are. I look at predicted flows of the river, and at what point is it flood stage, and at what point is it too low for me to run it. And this is, I think, more specific for rivers out in the West that are very susceptible to flooding and flash flooding and drying up. And then, I mean, I'm looking at the weather too. Like, do I need to bring rain jackets or food. I don't know. It's really similar to backpacking is the only way I can think about it, where I'm bringing sleeping bags and normal things that I would bring on a trip like that. I think the only difference is water. Like, you're on it so you can just bring some type of treatment to treat it. And then, figuring out where to camp along the river can be complex and complicated as well if there's like private land or, I think again,  this is river dependent, if you're in a canyon there's only certain spots you can stop. So, you have to be aware of like, "I have to go this many miles today. I have to," because there are no other places to stop. And, also paying attention to water temperature and how that'll dictate if I'm wearing normal just active clothes or if I'm wearing a dry suit or a wet suit. And then, if it's a multimodal trip, which is if I'm bringing my bike or if it's just solely a river trip to be a river trip. I think also, I mean, you have to bring poop tubes. Like, you're not really allowed to... **Inmn ** 17:10 Poop tubes? [Confused] **Blix ** 19:00 Poop tubes. Like a PVC...You can do it yourself, but you can make one out of PVC pipe. Have one enclosed so you can pack out your poop.  **Inmn ** 19:15 Okay. [Realizing what a poop tube is] **Blix ** 19:16 Yeah, sorry. You have to poop through a tube. [Joking] No, that's not what's going on. But, with bigger rafts and bigger trips we bring something called a Groover, which is this big, basically, toilet so you're packing all that out. Because, if you're all going to the bathroom on like the same beaches and campgrounds and there's not many of them, it turns into a litter box and it's really gross.  **Inmn ** 19:41 I see. I've heard of this on--and maybe it seems like more...Curious on your perspective. So, I've heard of this on especially popular hiking trails and especially multi-day hiking trails that there are spaces where they've literally just become large toilets. And there's so much human shit around buried. It's a big problem ecologically.  **Blix ** 20:12 No, I think I've read a study where I feel like in a lot of national forest and parks the ground is just...they test soil and it always includes human feces, which is deeply disturbing to me. But, I honestly think--and maybe this is a hot take--I think river folks and people who are on the river are really good at packing out feces. And with...Only because--especially in canyons--and maybe this is different out east--but again, there are only these small little spaces that can be used for camping. So again, if somebody shits everywhere, for some reason, people are going to know. And also the National Monument, at least where I work, keeps track of who's camping--because they assigned campsites to people where they can go--so they would probably know the party that like pooped everywhere. And also, they won't let you on the river unless you have a Groover or a way to pack out your feces. Like, they won't let you. They check your gear list. So, it's a highly regulated and permitted activity. For now. That could change. But even then...I...Yeah, you just have to pack out your poop. And then we all pee in the river. That's just what you do. But yeah, I think typically river folks are better than hiking and yeah...There's emergencies, but we're always carrying Wag Bags too.  **Inmn ** 21:49 Wag Bags?  **Blix ** 21:50 It's basically like a dog bag for your own poop, right? Yeah. Yep. **Inmn ** 22:00 Wow. The river community is certainly, I feel like, better than a lot of other niche sub groups at naming things. **Blix ** 22:09 Oh, yeah. I think it...Even like rapids where I'm like, "Really? This is...this is what this rapid is called?" Like...  **Inmn ** 22:19 Like what?  **Blix ** 22:22 I think a lot of them are just intense names. But, like one of them's called Schoolboy or like Fluffy Bunny Rapid or whatever the hell. And, it's like this is...Yeah, I don't know. We have, I feel like, nicknames for a lot of stuff, but...I guess it separates us from the other people? [Said unconvincingly] But, I think guides and river folk also get a bad rap for being adrenaline junkie, like really intense, obnoxious people. So, I won't say that it's a perfect community by any means because it's not, but it's definitely creative. **Inmn ** 23:03 What are some of the dangers of river travel in general, but I guess, you know, specifically we're talking about packrafting or camping as you raft. **Blix ** 23:13 Oh, man. Yeah, there's a lot. I'm trying to think of what I talk about in my safety talk of things we need to be aware of as people on rivers. I think, in general, with any outdoor activity there's the risks of cuts and bruises and broken bones and infections and just things that can happen day to day even if you're not on a river. So, like camp dangers. Which, I think a big thing with rivers that I see are like injured feet with people taking their shoes off on beaches and then running around and running into the water and getting a stick up their foot. [Inmn makes a horrified reaction noise] Yeah, or cutting their foot on a rock. But, river specific dangers, my own standard is I never want to be in the water. Like, out of my boat in the water. I don't enjoy swimming whitewater. It's a personal project I've tried to work on this past summer by forcing myself to swim in rapids. But, hazards that I think of for packrafting is the same with any other--like even if I was in a big raft I'd be thinking about the same thing--but, Keeper Holes, which is a funny...So think about a huge boulder or rock in a river and there's water pouring over it. There's certain...We call them holes because it creates this like giant space behind the rock where the water is kind of...it can recirculate. And if you fall in, or not fall, but float or are getting carried downstream into one of these, there is a risk that you will not be able to swim out of it where you're just getting recirculated underwater.   **Inmn ** 24:59 I see, yeah.  **Blix ** 25:00 Eternally.  **Inmn ** 25:01 Eternally.  **Blix ** 25:02 Yeah. And, I know you said you have fears about rivers. I don't want to freak you out, but... **Inmn ** 25:11 No, please.  **Blix ** 25:13 Okay.  **Inmn ** 25:14 Yeah, I have an utter fascination with water and water travel and also a, you know, horrifying fear of water, which is weird because I'm a triple water sign, but moderately terrified. **Blix ** 25:28 I think it's okay to be afraid of rivers, because when things go wrong, they go wrong very quickly. And you also are on a timeline if someone is in the water, if that makes sense. But, another thing that I think about for hazards is something called a Strainer. So that's when... **Inmn ** 25:29 Y'all are really good at naming things. **Blix ** 25:29 I know, I know. It's terrifying. So, it's when a tree or log falls into the river. And, the way I describe it in my safety talk is when you use strainers at home and you dump the water through, the water goes through, but the noodles get stuck, right?  **Inmn ** 26:10 Yeah.  **Blix ** 26:10 We are human noodles.  **Inmn ** 26:12 Oh God.  **Blix ** 26:12 So, when there's logs or sticks, they tend to pile up in the river and create this huge entrapment hazard. So, if you get flushed into one of those, it's pretty difficult to get out. Like, you will probably get trapped. Another thing is something called foot entrapment, which happens when rivers are shallower. And this is when you're in the water and you can feel the bottom of the river and you're thinking, "Oh, I'm gonna stand up to stop myself." So, you stand up. There's tons of rocks and sticks under the water. Your foot can get stuck under them and push you underwater because you're still...like the pressure of the water is still coming on to you. Does that makes sense? [Inmn makes an affirmative sound] So, you don't ever want to stop yourself with your feet. **Inmn ** 27:01 Okay, that would be my first instinct. **Blix ** 27:04 Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, that's a huge hazard. It's super easy to avoid. For me, that would be the scariest thing that could happen hazard-wise on a river, as my own person. And...because your instinct is "I'm gonna put my feet down to stand up." Yeah, but I've had close calls with foot entrapment. And, if you have even one of them, you will never do it again, just because of how quick the water will push you under. Super scary. Another hazard...[Laughing. Overwhelmed] I'll just keep going? **Inmn ** 27:41 Please tell me all of the ways that I can perish on the river. Which will definitely mean that I will try packrafting. [Dry and sarcastic] **Blix ** 27:49 Yeah. I think you should. It's super fun. I think, again, being aware of these hazards and knowing what to do in situations or read the river. Reading rivers is going to empower you. And I think fear is just a lot of what we don't understand or know, right? And on rivers like--I mean, there's also very legitimate fears of like, "This is fucked."--but, rivers, usually if I can see a log in the river, I know to not go near it. If I'm in the water, I know not to stand up and put my feet down to stop myself. But... **Inmn ** 28:31 No, that makes sense. That is the line that we keep saying on this podcast is preparedness is all about preparing for things that you're afraid of so that you don't have to think about them anymore because you have a plan. And this seems to just be that.  **Blix ** 28:48 Yeah. No, and I'm terrified of all these things, but I should know what to do if that happens. Yeah, there's... I'm trying to think. Other hazards are like Sieves where it's like rock fall and it funnels you through a really tight space and you can get jammed in there. Undercut walls or rocks is when the water erodes away the space underneath it and creates a pocket for you to get sucked under and into. [Inmn makes noises of terror] I'm so sorry. **Inmn ** 29:24 You all can't see me obviously. But, I assume I have this look of just visceral terror.  **Blix ** 29:31 Yeah, that's all right. That's...Usually when I give a safety talk, everyone's faces turn from excitement to complete terror. Or, sometimes kids start crying and I'm like, "Okay, let's go have fun on the river today!" Those are kind of the big ones that I can think of off the top of my head besides drowning. Drowning is...You know, cold water is a huge one where if you're In the water and it's freezing, your body is gonna start shutting down. I think you have 10 minutes to like figure it out.  **Inmn ** 30:07 Ten minutes!?   **Blix ** 30:07 Yeah. I think sometimes even less time. **Inmn ** 30:10 In like what temperature water? **Blix ** 30:14 Um. Oh geez. I feel like 50 degrees, maybe 60? I think it also is body dependent and how well your body is insulated or able to keep warm. Yeah, there's definitely...Like, the start of my season, I'm wearing a dry suit. Which is...Are you? I guess I could explain?  **Inmn ** 30:38 Yeah, a dry suit keeps you dry. Wetsuit keeps you a little bit wet but in a way that is insulative and warm? **Blix ** 30:45 Yeah, so like wetsuits work by, you get wet, but the water close to your body, that's contained in the wetsuit, warms up to your body temperature. So, it's keeping you--at least that's how I understand it--so, it's keeping you somewhat warm. Dry suit is a suit you wear that has gaskets over your wrists and neck and your feet. You're completely enclosed in this goretex super suit. You look super cool. But nothing...You could wear street clothes underneath and they would stay perfectly dry. **Inmn ** 31:17 So you can go LARP [Live Action Role Play] in your like "Dune" LARP?  **Blix ** 31:22 Yeah,basically, it's like a...What is it, still suit? But the opposite. It's not keeping moisture in. Just keeping you dry and warm, hopefully. But yeah. Those are like the hazards I can think of off the top of my head. **Inmn ** 31:39 And then there's the obvious ones, like anything related to camping or being outdoors? **Blix ** 31:43 Yeah. And, you know, you probably want to wear a helmet when you're rafting because of impacts with rocks or...You know, like, there's a lot of things that can go wrong once you're in the water, depending on what kind of rapid you're in or anything like that. **Inmn ** 32:03 Yeah. And there's a thing called swiftwater rescue? **Blix ** 32:11 Yep, um, I am swiftwater rescue certified. And I think if anyone is doing any type of river activity that you should definitely take the class. I don't know. It's expensive, but the knowledge you gained from it, I think, just keeps not only yourself safe as you can be on the river but everybody else around you. And it teaches you things like wading correctly, you know, throw bag techniques, if you wrap a boat, or how to unpin a raft that's wrapped around a rock potentially, techniques for helping people who are like in a foot entrapment situation, which isn't great, swimming out to people, how to swim in whitewater, or try to swim in Whitewater, how to, if you can't get away from a strainer, what to do if you are coming upon logs and sticks in the water. I will say my swiftwater class kind of terrified me because it just made me hyper aware of everything that could go wrong and then what I would possibly have to do to help somebody. But yeah, super intense class physically and mentally. And, yeah, it taught me a lot. But I do feel like I would be able to help in a rescue situation instead of just being some random person who's like just panicking and being like, "I don't know what to do!" So, that feels good. But I would probably still panic to a certain degree. **Inmn ** 33:52 That makes sense, because the principle of any kind of first aid or rescue is, "Don't become another patient."  **Blix ** 34:02 Right?  **Inmn ** 34:03 And so, if you're not trained to rescue someone from one of those situations,  it might be just more dangerous to try to rescue them. **Blix ** 34:13 Yeah. And it's frustrating. It makes me think, like, I take a lot of families down the river and there's, you know, small kids. And, parents always make the comment, "Well, if my kid goes in, I'm gonna jump in after them," which is, you know, then me as a guide, I have to figure out in that scenario, possibly, "Am I saving the parent or the kid?"  **Inmn ** 34:14 Yeah.  **Blix ** 34:14 If I can. Obviously, I want to try to save both but...and I always tell parents, "Hey, if you're not trained in swiftwater rescue, I would not recommend jumping out of my raft to help your kid. You're more help to me in this raft than you are in the water trying to help your child." **Inmn ** 35:02 Yeah. Do you ever just tell them bluntly, "If you do that, then I will be in a situation where I have to choose between which one of you to save." **Blix ** 35:11 Yeah, no. Yeah, I do tell them that if they're being very serious about it and I also try to remind folks that untrained first responders have a very high mortality rate. Which, it's like, you know, I don't understand because I don't have children, but I've seen people I care about swimming in rapids and of course I want to help them but jumping into whitewater is never a good solution. But yeah, I do tell them, "You're gonna make me have a really hard decision to save you or your child, possibly." So. Yeah, it just makes it more complicated. **Inmn ** 36:02 To switch gears a little bit, you know, away from all the grim horror...  **Blix ** 36:07 Yeah.  **Inmn ** 36:08 ...And into some more but differently contextualized grim horror. So, one of the big reasons I wanted to have someone on to talk about packrafting is that we have a lot of...I think knowing different ways to travel is incredibly important and, you know, coupled with my fear of water but also my fascination with water and boat travel, is when I saw "Fellowship of the Ring" when I was ten all I could think about was boat travel, boat travel, boat travel. **Blix ** 36:49 As one does when they watch that movie, more so than anything else in that movie. [Laughing] **Inmn ** 36:53 Yeah, they really...They really made a fun choice...or Tolkein when writing that and they're like, "And then they got on boats," and it's like holy crap. Incredible. How do I get a boat? **Blix ** 37:05 How do I get a boat that looks that cool?  **Inmn ** 37:09 How do I get a boat that looks that cool? And, you know, I feel like the boats that they have in that book are, they're made by elves, and so they're kind of packraftish in that they're abnormally light.  **Blix ** 37:24 Yes.  **Inmn ** 37:25 And so they like do--I'm going to use a fun word that I just learned, I think--portage.  **Blix ** 37:30 Yes.  **Inmn ** 37:31 They get the points where they're like, "Yeah, that's a waterfall. I guess we're gonna pick up the boat and carry it around." **Blix ** 37:37 Yeah. And it's a super light elf boat, so it weighs nothing. I'm sure that one person could carry it, knowing the elves. **Inmn ** 37:43 Yeah. But, the part that was really interesting to me, too, is the reasons why they took to the river and why I'm interested in learning about packrafting, which is, you know, the big reason that they did that was to sneak past the orcs ,which...or the enemy who had all the roads watched, they had the woods patrolled, and they were suddenly in the situation where they were like, "Well, we got to get there somehow."  And so, they took to the river. And so, the thing that I...The piece that I want to bring into the context now is from a situation of preparedness, whether that's preparing for road closures due to the malicious setting of checkpoints or the road is destroyed due to some other kind of disaster...You know, these disasters could be that a right-wing militia has taken over your state, and you're trying to leave that state right, to a more environmentally related disaster has destroyed some kind of key infrastructure, and you are looking for an alternative means to get somewhere. And yeah, I'm curious...I'm wondering if you have ever thought about this and if you have any opinions if...would packrafting help you? Could packrafting be a useful thing in your preparedness kit? **Blix ** 39:18 Yeah, I've definitely thought about this. I think it...Well, it depends. I think in Arizona, we don't have a ton of rivers that we could--and they all for the most part are like...you know, there is an endpoint. And they are going literally...Like, once you're on the river, you are stuck going that way. I do think because of...Getting to the entry point--I'm just thinking of the Salt river because it's the river that we have here. Also, you could do the Grand Canyon, but that's really intense... **Inmn ** 39:59 And like maybe our context out here in the west in Arizona is like...It's not specifically what I'm thinking of. **Blix ** 40:06 Yeah, just in general. **Inmn ** 40:07 Where, there's obviously other places with much more dense and spread out waterways.  **Blix ** 40:13 Yeah. I think it would be a very quick and efficient way to travel if you had a specific place you're going to along that route because you're not encumbered by like...Like, if people are backpacking or biking, you can't just start cutting...Like, backpacking you could cut right into a forest. But, if I was on a bike, I couldn't just turn my bike off the road and just start riding through a forest. Like, that would be super slow. I'd probably be walking my bike a lot. Whereas with river travel, you can go--I think it's, again, river dependent on the speed of the water and a lot of that stuff...But, I don't imagine that people would be patrolling waterways the way they would do with roads. The only thing I think about is if you're on a river anywhere, you'd have to think about when I need to exit before I get to go past a town or go under a bridge, because I think bridges would be huge points where people would post up at, or entry points into a certain area. So, you'd have to think about when I would need to get off to avoid those places. And then how would I get back onto the river? Can I get back onto it? Is there an access point? I'd be thinking about, you know, are their dams on the way? But yeah, honestly, if I could find a way to get onto the Salt River, I would try to post up in there for a while. Especially during the initial fallout. Because I think, if I can anticipate that and get to the river, I could stay in there with enough food in my packraft to be there for maybe two or three weeks because I have unlimited water for the most part, if the Salt's flowing, but it's a very steep narrow canyon that people can't access very well. But, I do wonder if other people would have the same idea with like, "There's water there. And it's hard to get to." **Inmn ** 40:14 Yeah, like, that's the interesting thing about it is it provides these weird little--not like short cuts--but these fairly easy routes through a lot of places that could otherwise be hard to access, but you're also then stuck on it. So yeah, it seems like a double-edge sword. **Blix ** 42:16 It is. And I think, especially with really remote rivers, like even the rivers that I guide on, there's pretty much one way to get in, and then you're in a canyon for a really long time, and there's one way to get out. And like there's a few evacuation points here and there that we've used--they're not great to hike out of--but, I would worry that those sites would also be...Like, would people think to have guards there or set up there to catch people coming down the river? You know? Like, possibly. You know, who knows? I also just...I don't think like...Like, when I think right-wing militia, I feel like they all have jet boats. So, they're not going to be thinking about these little streams and stuff that you can take a packraft on. **Inmn ** 43:37 Yeah, and there's so many weird small water arrays. You know, not here in Arizona, but... **Blix ** 43:41 Right. Well, I'm just thinking like Minnesota, there's tons of creeks and rivers and lakes and there's islands in the lakes that are...Like, think places you can get to that you could like...If it's only accessible via water, you could have stashes there that other people couldn't get to. **Inmn ** 44:02 Yeah. So, a weird dream that I had as a 20 year old oogle.  **Blix ** 44:10 Yes. Perfect. [Laughing] **Inmn ** 44:15 Was to set up funny little like--I didn't realize that I was thinking about this like being a prepper--I was like, "I want to set up all these like little caches. Like, I want to build these weird sheds with bikes and little like inflatable rafts and food stores underneath them. And so you could just, you know, ride trains or whatever and just end up at the weird little safe house, bunker ,like whatever, cache. I got weirdly obsessed with it. I wish that I had been cool enough to have actually done it, but I absolutely did not. Only fantasized about it.  **Blix ** 44:54 No, I think...I do think it's a great option. I don't think it's the end-all thing that you should completely stick to. I think it should be like a multimodal thing. I think, honestly, backpacking and packrafting is like the best combination. Because, I think about with just backpacking, like what if there is a river you need to cross? Or, a body of water that you have to cross and you don't want to swim with a huge backpack? I don't know. I just...And I don't think people...Like, they're gonna be traveling by road, bikes, cars, like I don't think packrafts are well known enough, currently, that people would be looking for crafts in water, especially in smaller waterways. **Inmn ** 44:54 Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that is exactly what the Fellowship of the Ring thought. **Blix ** 45:50 Yes. Yes. I also think...One thing is like, what if the orcs just went to the river edge? They could just pick them off. Like they're moving fast, but I also think you could shoot arrows at them? **Inmn ** 46:09 So, they did at some point. They only traveled at night to make it harder for them to shoot at them. **Blix ** 46:14 Yeah, Right. Right. No, it's okay. **Inmn ** 46:17 But, you know, we do have this dissimilar...We're not on an equal playing field with like bows and arrows in the dark vs the kind of technology that people have access to now with guns and things like that. That would be my first thing is like, if I was going down a major waterway in a canyon, like I would probably not choose this as a way to escape a militia. Like, you're on a canyon wall with a long range gun... **Blix ** 46:47 Yeah, for sure. **Inmn ** 46:48 ...And I'm a tiny slow moving object out in the open... **Blix ** 46:51 Right. No, It's something that I also think about where it would be so easy to just put yourself in a really bad spot if you chose the wrong waterway to go on. Like, I would never be like, "I would use a packraft to travel the Mississippi in those types of times," because I think people would just be near them. I do think though, like, hard to access canyons are still...Like, if you needed to just lay low for a while, would be the place to go. Because, I think the amount of effort it would take to post up on a canyon edge in some of those places is astronomical. Like, no one, I feel like, is going to go--unless you're someone who was really important for people to get to or--like, no one's going to put in that effort, especially in the desert with water being so scarce and like...Yeah. **Inmn ** 46:52 Yeah, Always fun to think about these, you know...Like, "fun." ["Fun," said in a dry sarcastic and questioning way] These terror fantasies that we might be encountered with in the next decade or...currently of far-right violence and having to figure out creative ways to escape it. But, also always want to think about more environmentally related disasters. Like I think...It's like there's things that I...I get really scared here in the desert. Like, one of the big things that I am scared of is getting physically trapped here if there's like gas and energy crisis. **Blix ** 48:33 Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. **Inmn ** 48:34 Figuring out alternative ways to leave--which like, packrafting is not the solution to do that--but thinking about in other places, like, you know, if we're not expecting...like, if our main threat model isn't far-right violence, could packrafting or river travel in general--and maybe we're graduating to the larger raft at this point--could river travel be a helpful thing during other kinds of disasters? **Blix ** 49:06 I think, well, I think of forest fires, like escaping to a body of water or a canyon is a great way to try to mitigate being trapped in a forest that's literally on fire. Because a lot...hopefully nothing's going to catch on fire in the water. That'd be wild.  **Inmn ** 49:06 Stranger things have happened. **Blix ** 49:06 Yeah, I know. So yeah, I think as a means to escape forest fires is great. I think the one thing I think about, especially here in the West, is where our water is going to go. And as someone who guides on a tributary to the Grand Canyon, and the Grand Canyon obviously feeding into Lake Powell and Glenn Canyon and all that stuff, people are constantly talking about water and water rights. And, you know, my fear is that we're...People are going to start hoarding. And by people, I mean, companies and government, they're going to hoard water in these giant reservoirs. And, they're not going to release any to fill up canyons and river beds because it's just going to be such a critical resource. And my thought is that when it gets to that point, they are going to shut off the reservoirs from releasing water and they are just going to keep all of it.  **Inmn ** 49:44 Oh no. **Blix ** 50:18 And, I don't know that river travel will be feasible in the West, except if it's on an undammed river, which there's only...I think the Yampa River, which is a river I guide on, is the last undammed tributary to the Grand Canyon. It is like one of the last wild rivers, which is super susceptible to floods. So, that's another disaster. Whereas with climate change, we're getting these more extreme...Like, they had almost record breaking snowfall in Colorado in the area that feeds into this river. So, the river was flowing at this...It was fine at like 22,000 CFS, which is cubic feet per second. And the way I describe this to people, it's like if I threw a rope from one riverbank to the other, and every second 22,000 basketball sized amounts of water is flowing by.  **Inmn ** 51:35 Wow.   **Blix ** 51:35 Or you could say baby-sized. 22,000 babies are floating by every second. So, it's a ton of water, which being on a river that has that...And so it can be up to, you know, I think the highest flow the Yampa has ever been is like 30,000, which is...I can't even fathom how scary that river would be. But, it can go all the way down to no flow at all. So like, if you can't...if people take out river gauges there's no way of knowing what the flows are going to be for rivers. You would have to show up there with your watercraft and be like, "Well, I hope there's water for me to escape," which I think river travel in the east or a place where there's more water is a better solution than river travel out here in the West. But, as far as natural disasters go and things that could happen, like, if you're trying to escape somewhere due to that, I think we're in a pretty not great place here. Like, the only river I can think of would be going down the Grand. Which is really big water. It ends in...you know, like...You know, like, it's so dependent on...and especially like what if they blow up dams? What if they blow up the reservoirs? Which, what if you're camped along that canyon and someone upstream blows up the reservoir? This is again, all things I've thought about, where it's like, you're gonna get washed away. **Inmn ** 53:11 Yeah, very true. They did just do that in Ukraine. Russia blew up the largest reservoir in Europe. **Blix ** 53:20 Oh, wait. Yes. Yeah, I did see that. Yep. So that's something...I mean, it's something I think about where I think people would blow that up, especially if people downstream needed water. **Inmn ** 53:34 Yeah. Yeah. **Blix ** 53:38 Sorry this is...[Both making sounds about how grim this all is] But...I know...But, I also think the river lends itself to...You know, like, there's fish. You can eat fish, you can...There's lots of food and really fertile soil that can grow along rivers. So, if you had to post up and figure it out, like, I would want to be close to a body of water. **Inmn ** 54:03 Thank you for bringing it back to hope and why this could be helpful. **Blix ** 54:05 Yeah, right. And I think a thing with river stuff as well, and why I love it so much, is it's not an activity that you necessarily want to do alone. In fact, I would like recommend that no one do any river activity alone. But like, you want to be with a community of people on the water, like setting up safety, and sending someone downstream to check that there's no river hazards, and then like having people come through, and you're working as a team constantly. And, you can have people...Like, if someone is injured, someone else could take more gear and like it's...You can carry more things in a pack raft than you could on your back because like--I mean, eventually I think you'd have to carry them on your back--but the water is going to help you with that weight. Or, you can even pull another empty packraft behind you with more gear. Yeah, I think I would very much want to be close to a body or water or a river of some kind. **Inmn ** 54:07 Cool. Um, I think I...One of my last questions is--I'm expecting the answer to be grim again [Blix makes a disappointing groan]--but I'm curious as someone who like works on waterways in the West, how are they? What are they like with climate change? **Blix ** 55:26 Oh, yeah. River or the canyons or the water itself? **Inmn ** 55:33 Everything. Yeah, water and canyons in the West. Yeah, I'm terrified to hear the answer. **Blix ** 55:42 So, I think I notice...Like, when they had to fill up Glen Canyon, I think it was last year, they did a big dam release from the Flaming Gorge dam, which is up river where I guide. So, I'm kind of hyper aware of when shit is bad downstream because they have to do these big releases. But I know this year was a really good year for rivers, especially the ones I guide on, because of the large snowfall that they got in Colorado. Like, we had really high nice water forever. The rivers were all really healthy. But, I think I've...Two years ago I took a group of politicians from Utah down the river. They were like Congress people. Because my company did it. I wasn't like, "I want to take these people..." No, I would never be like, "I want to take these people down the river." But< the point of it was to show these--they were all men--to show these men that the rivers were worth saving, and not like damming up, not drilling for oil and everything in this area. And the moment we got back in the vans to shuttle back, they started talking about canyons they had seen to dam up along the route we had gone on.  **Inmn ** 57:04 Oh my god.  **Blix ** 57:07 But, I think it's because all the water that I guide on is already owned by somebody downstream. **Inmn ** 57:18 Okay, like, “owned by” because it gets used? **Blix ** 57:21 Yes. Like, the Green River gives water to 33 million people. But, it's bizarre to think about water as being something that's owned? **Inmn ** 57:40 I thought it was like that one thing that wasn't for a while. **Blix ** 57:43 Same. No, it's coming to light that it has been. Yeah. But, we mention that to a lot of people we take down the river that all this water belongs to somebody else. Like, this is not ours. This is not like our collective water. **Inmn ** 58:00 Yeah. It's not here for our collective survival. **Blix ** 58:03 Yeah, no, it's for somebody downstream. Which, I mean, they need water too. But I think it's...honestly the rivers I guide on--and maybe this is again is a hot take--but I am not hopeful that they will flow within the next 10 years. I think as water rights and like water wars become more prevalent, I think states are going to start withholding. Like, I think Flaming Gorge is mostly in Wyoming and they could decide to just not--I think it would have a chain reaction if they decided to not leave water let water out. Because all the farms downstream would die. Blah, blah, blah. People would be without that. But um, yeah. But, I'm also, with climate change, it was odd. Like, the first year I worked there, there was no water, there was hardly any water coming down the river. It was super low. Our boats were getting stuck. And I just became hyper aware of how fucked stuff was for some reason. But then this year was so good for water that I was like, "Oh, maybe it won't be so bad." But then I keep...You know, like I think it really...Who's to say? If they dam up more rivers, which I think they might start, then I think that's going to change the game a lot for river travel and it's going to be really dependent on how much water we have access to. **Inmn ** 58:03 Yeah, yeah. Which, that's one of the big key problems is not necessarily there being lack of water, but rather that water is being mismanaged or hoarded. **Blix ** 59:46 Yeah, I think it's a combination of all of that. And where I guide it's desert, but then the valley after the canyon is all alfalfa fields, which is a really water intensive crop.  So then and I...Like, they flood their fields. And it's just like this disconnect of this is not like an infinite resource. And, it's interesting to me that that is this...Yeah, there's a whole lot to unpack with water rights and water usage. And, I think that could even trickle to out East. You know, because who's to say that they won't suffer droughts and experience creeks and rivers drying up? But...I know that is kind of a grim answer. But... **Inmn ** 59:47 The name of the show is Live Like the World is Dying.  **Blix ** 1:00:46 True.  **Inmn ** 1:00:47 Okay. Well, that's about all the time that we have for today. Is there? Is there anything else? Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have asked you or that you would really love to bring into the conversation? Or have any last words of hope for the river? Or just like why...Is packrafting fun? Is it just fun? **Blix ** 1:01:13 It is fun. Yeah, I really want to encourage anyone who's curious about going on rivers or river travel, I love it. Because, I think I mentioned, it's such a community oriented activity versus backpacking and bike packing and other stuff I do that's very, "You're the individual out there fending for yourself," for river stuff I really love because you're always working as a team. You're always trying to keep everybody safe. You learn a lot about yourself. Learning to read rivers, I think, is like a superhero skill. Like, I feel like a tracker. Like, I feel like Aragorn, like, "Oh, I can read this like little miniscule thing that maybe other people missed. And I know..." Like, it's a really cool thing to look at a river and being able to tell what is causing certain waves or currents. Understanding that, I think is...Even if you're just someone who has to cross a river every now then, whether you're backpacking or bikepacking, like being able to figure out the safest place to cross is an important skill to have. But, river river travel and rafting and all that is super fun. Yeah, I would love to have more friends who do river stuff. So yeah. **Inmn ** 1:01:22 Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on. And good luck on the river. **Blix ** 1:02:38 Thank you so much. **Inmn ** 1:02:43 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show then go packrafting with your bike and then please tell me about it or invite me along to live out my "Lord of the Rings" fantasies. Or, you can just tell people about the show. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support the show by talking about it on social media, by rating, and reviewing, and doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for. And, you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is the publisher of this podcast and a few other podcasts, including my other show Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. I'm trying to see how many times I can say the name of the project at one time. But, that is a monthly podcast of anarchists literature. And then there's the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is a good podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And, we would like to shout out some of our patrons in particular. Thank you so much. Perceval, Buck, Jacob, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Funder, Janice & Odell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, S.J., Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much. We could seriously not do any of this without y'all. And I hope that everyone is doing as well as they can with everything that's going on and we will talk to you soon. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is rejoined by Wōen and Roxanne from the Woven Ends Collective to talk about death, dying, and the work of death doulas. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Woven Ends on Death & Dying pt. II Inmn 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today again Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. We're back again this week to finish up our chat with Wōen and Roxy from the Woven Ends Collective to talk about death and dying. I'm not sure exactly where the episode got cut in half, but today we're probably going to hear a lot more about caring for people who are dying and the work of a death doula. Like last week, we're talking about some heavy stuff but in the spirit of building more resilient communities that can prepare for the end times together in all ways. And again, we hope that conversations like this can help shift how people talk about death and dying. And, we don't want to bring this stuff up to either romanticize death or to incite fear of death. It's just going to happen. And I know I would like for my circles to have all the resources that they need when I die. And oh please, god, don't embalm me. I really, really, really want to rot. Does this count as a power of attorney? As we learned last week, no, it does not. Content warning again. At some point we talked about the idea of choosing to die from the perspective of being terminally ill. But before we go into it, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo [Singing the words like a melody] Molotov Now 01:48 Yeah, welcome to Molotov Now, a podcast about taking action. Molotov Now 01:59 In Molotov Now, we analyze and discuss news articles and stories of resistance from around the globe and connect them to our struggles here at home in Aberdeen, Washington. Molotov Now 02:09 In the spirit of building solidarity between the rural and the urban, we hope to inspire direct action in the face of oppression and to light a fire to find each other in the darkness. Inmn 02:29 So what is kind of the pathway from like, say that I die tomorrow--I die in a hospital--like what is the pathway between like, I die in a hospital and my friends bury me in our home cemetery? Like, how does the possession of my remains work? Like, in Little Miss Sunshine, are people gonna have to pay to get my corpse? Like, can they get my corpse? Like, how does that work? Wōen 03:04 Yeah, so you don't...you know, whoever is the designated person, so either the next of kin legally or the legally designated healthcare power of attorney who was also your power of attorney over your disposition, they will have the rights to your body, and you do not have to...If you die at a hospital, you're not going to have to pay to have the body released to you. What normally happens is the hospital will give a family a list of funeral homes, and then from there you'd call the funeral home, then the funeral home will do all the transportation. And then, you often won't even see that exchange from the hospital to the funeral home. You'd go to the funeral home and make arrangements and go from there. But, as the person with the rights, you can do all of that yourself. You can go pick them up and drive them to where they need to be. It's--and this is where like educating around things like bodily care and home funerals is really important--because there are logistical things you need to think about with transportation and caring for the body at home. And so, it can be a little daunting to do on your own, but, you know, if there's a lot of people supporting you, it's actually not very hard. Like, the intimidation factor is the hardest part. And, you know, having a vehicle that can get you home and a space where you can do the burial, those are really the next parts. And we all kind of know inherently how to do these rituals. Like once you enter into that space, it's really beautiful like how people just like fall into these different roles that they feel really confident in. And, yeah. So I would say, you know, if you're not going on that normal mode from hospital to funeral home to cemetery, like having a lot of people involved to care for the process is...Yeah, it's very doable and beautiful. Inmn 05:52 Cool. Will--this is a weird logistical question, but I feel like this is kind of, you know, what we're here for--like, say, if I die, and I die in a hospital and like, say my family, chosen family, support network, which, you know, whoever it is, and we're trying to do like a home burial and they're not ready to, you know, take possession of my body, like will the hospital hold on to it for a little while? In like a refrigerator? Like, what if they're not ready for it? What if they like...you know, obviously, I just died. Maybe they need a week to deal with it. But, they don't want me embalmed and want to take possession of my remains. Wōen 06:54 I can't say the exact timeline, I think it's probably a different state by state, but there is a limit on how long a person can stay at a hospital morgue. So that's a good thing to know where you are. But, another good thing to know is that often you can work with funeral homes to just do transportation or cold storage to give you time. And so I think that would be the best pathway is like, "Okay, we're not ready. Let's call a funeral home and just get them to pick our person up and put them in cold storage. And that will give us time to breathe and figure out what we need to do. And then from there, like you can ask them to, you know, transport them to where they need to go or you can pick them up from the funeral home. You can chip away at what the funeral home is offering. And some, you know, sometimes it'll be met with a little resistance. But like, you can have people tasked with advocating, and having more people to negotiate with different parts of the process is really helpful. Inmn 08:18 Yeah, cool. That is good to know. So I feel like we keep going back to this power of attorney. If I get a medical power of attorney, does that extend to my remains? Like does who has my medical power of attorney also have the rights to the...to my disposition, or? Wōen 08:50 Yeah, the answer is yes. And, it's important to get a good Advanced Directive. Some Advanced Directives don't have a section for disposition and it's important to get one that does. Because if it doesn't, then that is a situation where there could be like...Yeah, where if it's contested on who has rights, the advance directive could fall short. So, knowing that your Advanced Directive has that part, that section, in it is really important. Not all do and it sucks. So, figuring out that you have the right kind of Advanced Directive, and a lot of them do, but some of the popular ones--like the Five Wishes, which is really popular--it doesn't have that section in there. You can write it in yourself. But, if you're doing it and don't have guidance and have never done it before, that part can be missed. And then yeah. And then you could lose that right if it gets contested or there's a situation. Yeah. Inmn 10:18 It's so weird that I think that this is like so--and maybe this is part of it is that in my head all of these decisions are these weird legal red tape or I'm like...I'm surprised to hear and, you know, grateful to hear that my friends could just get my body and do whatever...like, do what--not whatever they want with it...Like, hopefully do what I want them to do. [Everyone laughing] But, it's dispelling this myth that I have died and the State owns me, that the State owns my body and the State determines what happens to it. Like, I had this question for y'all where I was like, "Okay, but how do I get my...like...How do I get the name that I go by, and that people know me in the world by, on my tombstone instead of my legal name?" And it's like...it's...because in my head the Social Security Administration is who sends the form to the stone carver to make that and I'm like, "Why do I have these these weird myths in my head about, like, who owns my body?" Wōen 11:40 I mean, because we live in...Like, when we're, you know, quote unquote, "healthy," we're dealing with that every day. Like people owning our time. You know, the Capitalist...Yeah, the Capitalist greed has infected all parts of our body. Yeah, it's really easy to assume that it will affect us after death too. Yeah. And on your note about your stone, like a headstone, yeah, you can put whatever you want on it, honestly. Like, it's up to you and the stone carver and the cemetery. There's no law or regulation around that. It's whoever has the rights of disposition. Inmn 12:35 Yeah, yeah. And I know, Wōen, that you have to go in a second, so I just have this one last question. And, you know, maybe this is more of a Roxy question or...I don't know. So, I can have a home burial. Can I? Can I die at home? Are there complications to me--like legal complications for my friends--to like...Say, I'm having some kind of medical emergency, and my friends know in my power of attorney that I don't want anything done, that there are interventions that are...like that I've like excluded, like CPR or anything, and I'm in a situation where I need CPR. If they watch me die, is that legally complicated for them? Roxanne 13:30 No, actually. Well, I mean, it could be in the way that there would have to be a lot of proving different things. But it's not illegal to die at home. It's also not illegal to choose death. So maybe slight content warning, you know, it's not illegal to choose to die. And, you don't put other people at risk for any kind of weird legal things for being present when, for example, if someone chose to die and you were there, that's not a legal issue. Wōen 14:20 Yeah, yeah. Just to, you know, be mindful that if there isn't a doctor involved or, you know, ongoing palliative care, like hospice, it's considered to be unexpected in a way. So, whenever, like, say you die at home, whoever finds you or that's there, they need to call emergency services, EMS, and usually, you know, you can tell them to come quietly with their lights off, but they'll need to come. And if there isn't a clear, you know, reason or like you can't, you know...Often the medical examiner, or always the medical examiner, will need to be there if there isn't a doctor involved. And then that often means that police can be there too. So it's, you know, if you have the choice to plan on that, just everyone involved, you know, in planning, like create a complete safety plan around that. Because, that will be the response that EMS will need to come and sometimes the police too. Roxanne 15:53 And the situation really varies. Like in Washington State, I volunteer doing medical aid and dying support. So I go and sit with people who have a terminal diagnosis that have been given six or less months left to live and they ingest a medication that ends their life. So like in those situations, you know, doctors have signed off on it. People know. But, folks are absolutely dying at home. And, we have loose terms around what "home" is in that case. But yeah, and in those situations, for example, maybe a patient did have hospice, we'll call hospice. Otherwise, you know, we'll call the medical examiners or you like...You have to notify someone. But yeah, dying at home--and honestly, I know that this can also be like an issue of resources, and this could be a complicating statement--but I feel like if it is possible, and you feel safe to die at home, and the people that are in your home feel safe with you dying at home, that to me, that is a really ideal scenario and is a really comfortable and safe and nice place to no longer have to exist in. Inmn 17:32 Yeah, yeah. Do you have to go, Wōen? Wōen 17:35 I do. Thank you so much. Inmn 17:38 Yeah. If there's any kind of last things that you want to say before you go or like anything you want to plug...But also, we didn't really get into this as much and I would love to have you back on to talk about this, but would love to at some point have you back on to talk more about grief and like mourning. If that's something that you want to talk about. Not now but at a later situation. Wōen 18:09 Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think we both would have a really awesome perspective on that. Probably different. It's all different. So. Yeah, that'd be sweet. Inmn 18:27 Yeah. Great. Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Roxanne 18:31 Yeah, yeah. Hope you have a beautiful day and that it's not too hot. See you. Inmn 18:41 So I wanted to kind of double back on this question that came up before and it's...Yeah, I guess that it's a little unrelated to this, but we keep going back to the medical power of attorney. I feel like this is like the golden point of the episode is get a power of attorney. Inmn 19:08 And does my hospital debt also pass on to my power of attorney or does that? How does hospital debt work? Like, if I die and there are unpaid hospital bills like what happens? Where does that go? Roxanne 19:08 Yes. Roxanne 19:44 Yeah, that's a great question. I don't fully have the answer to that. It wouldn't just go to someone because they're your power of attorney. That would be more like the person who has control of your assets. So, yeah, in those scenarios, the person who has financial control would be the one that would then, you know, is supposed to settle up. But I, honestly, that's not my powerhouse. So I'm not totally sure. Yeah. Yeah, I don't have the answer to that. I'm so sorry. Oh, Inmn 20:46 No worries. You know, I'm here to...I love bringing up questions even if it, even if there's no clear answers to them Inmn 20:55 I was thinking of the situation where, you know, I do love my family. I don't think I want them controlling my remains, which is...I don't think my family listens to the show. So, hopefully, they didn't hear that. But, let's say I, you know, if I, you know, if I hated my family, then, I'm imagining this situation where I've given my medical power of attorney and the rights to my disposition to, you know, my chosen family. And then...but, financially that my assets are still tied to my next of kin. So, I could give all the good parts to my friends and then shirk that debt off on my piece of shit family. Which, you know, that's a hypothetical. I love my family. All my families. Roxanne 20:55 Totally. Roxanne 21:57 Yeah, that's a spicy...That's a spicy suggestion/question. I like it. Inmn 22:05 Yeah. Or, I don't know. It makes me think about like, I had a friend who--this was years and years ago--and I think we were all 22 or something, and they were like, "Oh, I have to go sign these weird documents today." And I was like, "Oh, why?" And they're like, "Oh, my friend is making me the trustee for their life insurance policy." And I was like, "Oh, a 22 year old is getting a life insurance policy?" And they're like, "Yeah, So, if this person accidentally dies, like, I will get a million dollars." And I was like, "Yeah, that is...Okay. Yeah. How do we,"--not how do we scam death because that's not what's going on--but like, I'm wondering, thinking about how do we set people up for if something does happen to us, that instead of inheriting debt, they're getting money or something? I don't know. Roxanne 23:09 Definitely. And there are people thinking of that. And I think it's so cool. And yeah, I think that that could be a really great way to resource a community also, you know? Being like, okay, death is inevitable. Some of us are going to die younger than others. As many of us as we possibly can, like, maybe we should be all throwing together and have kind of like a big mass life insurance thing pool where everyone...You know, to make sure everyone can get a policy. And within that you can, you know, ask that those funds go into whatever community project or, you know, or to people that, you know, that could really benefit from that resource. Yeah, I think that that's really smart. And the cool thing, too, is, you know, obviously, depending on state and depending on the policy, it covers all different kinds of death, including chosen death. And that's not always true. But, there are many cases in which that is true. You just have to have the policy for a certain amount of years or, you know, there's circumstances in which that's also the case, which I think is good to remember. Inmn 24:41 Yeah. Which it's like, obviously, I would...I'm gonna put all of, as many resources as I can, into people in my community not dying. But... Roxanne 24:52 Yes. Inmn 24:53 But, we are, you know, like you said, we are all going to die and unfortunately we do live in a rapidly changing world, and a world that has always been, you know, very dangerous for queer people, for trans people, for people of color, for disabled people, for, you know, all of these different kinds of people. And I...It's like, I never...I just never want...I never want to see a mutual aid or crowdfunding request for extreme funeral expenses, you know? And, because it's like that...it's obviously important to be able to mourn someone and celebrate someone in the ways that they want it or in not rushed ways or in ways that aren't financially ripping people's lives apart. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, just some things to think about. Roxanne 26:05 Totally. Yeah, definitely. Inmn 26:09 To switch gears a little bit, you have spent a lot of time hanging out with people while they're dying, and I'm wondering if you wanted to talk about that a little bit. I feel like I don't have any super specific questions around that. But, it's something that I'm...something that I'm very unfamiliar with and wish I--I mean, I don't wish that people that I was close to were dying--but, you know, I always want tools for navigating those experiences when they do happen. Roxanne 26:49 Yeah. So I feel like getting to spend time with people in their last few moments is such a special and specific form of intimacy that can't really be recreated. You know, I feel like death workers tend to--and I've also been guilty of this myself--just talk about, like, how beautiful the, you know, this process is and what a gift it is to get to be in the space. And, I believe and agree with all of that. And, I also know that for grieving people, it doesn't always feel beautiful to watch your loved one...You know, maybe their body looks different than you're used to. Or, you know, like to watch someone go through this, sort of change, this metamorphosis. doesn't always feel special and beautiful to people when they're grieving. So I don't...I don't want to negate the heaviness of it. But, I think, you know, in a way, it is really beautiful and it is really special. And, you know, they say that hearing is the last thing to go, so something that I always urge family members, when they're in the room with someone who seems like, you know, like they can't interact with you, they're just breathing and, you know, you can't really like have much interaction with them, is just to talk to them and tell them the things that either, you know, last words that you wish that you could tell them or I think oftentimes dying people want permission, want permission to die. And, you know, if people can, I really encourage them in those last moments, those last bits, to just like, you know, to release someone from this, from this Earthly existence. And I don't, you know, I have...I am not going to speak to whether or not we just die, whether or not there's an afterlife, or, you know, that's not my wheelhouse, but I do know that it feels so nice to know that someone is letting you know that it's okay to go. You know? And, that, you know, people are going to be okay. Like what a relief and what a gift that can be to someone. Yeah. And the whole point of all of this, including, you know, the Advanced Directives and having your disposition stuff figured out, all of this is just to set us up to be able to provide the people that we love more time and space to grieve in ways that feel appropriate for them. You know, the more decisions we make for them about how to deal with the fact that we've died. That's just offering up so much space. And then, people get to really be in their process if, you know, if they can. Sometimes it takes people years to grieve. But, you know, as much as we can set them up for success, I think that's the best case scenario. Inmn 31:07 Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I know the answer to this, but just to vocalize that as a question, like, is it important for a death doula to be close to the person that they are providing end of life care for? And...Or how would, how would you phrase those words, What terms? What terms would you use? Roxanne 31:34 I guess I want to make sure that I understand the question. Like, do you mean physically close? Or do you mean, is it important that the death doula be in relation and community with that person? Inmn 31:50 The latter. Yeah. Roxanne 31:51 Yeah, definitely not. I think that that is a wonderful scenario. And when that can happen, like, what a beautiful gift and the depths that you can go to together in like figuring out this process is just like, even better. But I think, you know, sometimes people really want someone who's kind of removed. Because, some of this, sadly, is our transactional decisions. And sometimes it feels a little too close to home or someone can't be fully honest with someone that they know really well and they want sort of...kind of like a stranger buffer, kind of like why some of us choose therapists, you know? Like, you want this kind of like outside resource that you can reflect and say things that you might not want to say to someone that you really love, you know? I think that it can be a similar thing. So, you know, I think it's great when it can happen, that it be someone that you're close to. And I also understand why some people want it to be a stranger. There's benefits to both. Inmn 33:25 Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's...I feel weird to bring this component into it. And I don't really remember these books. And I've also heard that the author is questionable, like a lot of people in the world. But, there was this concept that, you know, I'm half remembering from a book. Have you ever read "Speaker for the Dead?" [Roxanne makes a sound of negation] It's this book by Orson Scott Card, who...Yeah, I don't know, maybe there's questionable things, I don't know. But it proposed this, you know, this concept of this person who was this speaker for the dead and this person's role was to go around and facilitate these rituals or these processes around people who had died and, you know, they're pointedly like, not even necessarily part of that community. And, you know, they've maybe never...they've probably never interacted with even like the living person. And I, you know, I found that concept super interesting and alluring when I was 12 and reading these books, which is ultimately not really what that book was about, but the concept of a "speaker for the dead" or like...that's maybe not even necessarily like what a death doula is...It was just super interesting and intriguing to me. Roxanne 35:09 Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really cool. The thing that I thought of when you said that was just thinking about like feeling cautious around some of that, like as a white person, making sure that you are not walking into communities of color and trying to tell them how to grieve and what a funerary process can look like and things like that. So yeah, I think it's interesting to think about, like, the outsider piece. And also, yeah. Sounds like that's not what the book was saying. But that's what it brought up for me. Just thinking about...Yeah, I know, I keep mentioning how death work and birth work are so similar, but I think both things have historically been, you know, really white washed, and have been given to more privileged communities, you know? Like, many good forms of care are saved for extreme privilege. But, hopefully we're changing that. Inmn 36:44 Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, one kind of like, I guess, you know, post-life death mourning celebratory experience--flailing for words--Turns out our culture doesn't have a lot of words for talking about these things. Maybe that's part of the problem. Yeah. But like, one thing that I've heard about--I've never experienced one--that I was always like...that sounds amazing. And, you know, I'm not part of this culture. So, you know, I'm not gonna have one or anything. I just think it's beautiful, is the idea of second lines, which are a thing in New Orleans. I don't know if they're specific to New Orleans. Do you know much about second lines? I feel like I'm bringing up a concept... Roxanne 37:34 They're so beautiful. Yeah. I don't feel like it would be appropriate for me to really explain it, because it's also not my culture, but I think that it's such a--I have seen second lines--and I think that it's such a beautiful and, you know, joyous way for community to come together and mourn and grieve together and dance and scream. And yeah, it's such a beautiful ritual. That is what I can say about it, is that it's absolutely such a beautiful ritual. Yeah, and I hope that, you know, we can think of and create more and more beautiful rituals as we go along on ways to both celebrate and grieve at the same time, because those two things really, you know, joy and grief really love each other. We often treat them as opposites, but they are...Because of one, we have the other. And, it's such a beautiful blend. Inmn 37:35 Yeah, yeah. I feel like this is getting into a territory that I absolutely want to talk about more, but I also really want to have y'all back on at some point to talk about mourning and grieving and kind of like post-death experiences. Roxanne 39:12 Would love to do that. Inmn 39:14 Wonderful. So yeah, I don't want to get into it too much. But um...Yeah, are there any other kinds of things about kind of like death doulaing...death--being a death doula, that you want to bring into this into this conversation? I'm sorry, I don't have any...I'm super intrigued by it, but I don't have any super specific questions. Roxanne 39:39 Yeah, totally. You know, the thing that I think I would talk more about but I don't exactly know how to really get it going is to talk about "Death with Dignity," sort of. Like, "Right to Die," stuff, because it is really changing in this country right now. And, it's really exciting. And, there are definitely aspects of it that are contentious. But, I feel really privileged to be someone that has gotten to experience this pretty extreme form of autonomy and self-direction that I find really inspiring and intense and brave. And, I don't really know...You know, it's like my role and capacity as someone who sits with people making these choices isn't as a death doula. It's just as a volunteer, a member of a community, who deeply believes and advocates for the fact that people shouldn't have to die alone. And I think because of this specialization thing that we've touched on a few times, people don't feel confident dying or sitting with people while they die, or, you know, all...pretty much all of the things that we've been talking about in this episode. And I think the more that we're educating each other, the more that we're talking about these things as a community, asking questions, the more confident we will be in approaching these situations and making autonomous, and educated, and self-directed decisions for ourselves. And, that's really the point here is autonomy and self-determination. And as a queer, as an anarchist, you know, like, all of the things that that feels like such an important place, that we're not just trying to figure out the things in our life, but that we're also figuring out those things in our death. Inmn 42:22 Do you--God, this is a weird question--but do you have any tips for people who are...who are sitting with people who are dying, or holding space or like caring for people who are dying, who, you know...people who aren't death doulas? Like say, that person's friends and loved ones. Roxanne 42:46 Totally. Like someone sitting with their grandmother, for just an example or something like that, you know, ask questions, if at all possible. If verbal communication is a possibility, I would ask questions. Touch. Touch each other. I feel like that's such a powerful gift and tool that we can use. You know, I think because we lack the confidence in death and dying, you know, it's almost like, "Oh, somebody just died, Like, I'm not allowed to touch them," like it becomes a crime scene or something. And that's not the case. When my father died, I absolutely climbed into bed and just laid next to him for a long time. And, that felt like such an important part of my healing process. And that might not be true for other people, but yeah, I really encourage people to really, as much as they feel comfortable, to be hands on, ask questions, and if it seems like, you know, if this is a consenting situation. You know, I recorded my dad breathing a lot. Just so that way I could have something when I felt like I really needed that, that I could go back to and listen. And yeah, I think...Yeah, asking questions, inviting vulnerability where you have capacity for, and asking for help. If you need help, that's okay. And I feel like sometimes, you know, sometimes we feel like, "I'm the only one that can handle this." I feel like so often in grief, we really feel like we're the only ones that have been through a situation. And there might be specifics to what we're going through that are specific to our individual situation. But, the more and more people you talk to about this, you know, like, most people have lost someone, have been through some kind of stage of grief. And even if we feel alone, we're not actually alone. And when we find the capacity to open up and let other people into that space of grief with us, you'll find that there are so many people that can share similar experiences with you. But you know, that's all when people are ready. Inmn 45:27 Yeah. Yeah, totally. I like...I'm gonna have a weird moment of vulnerability and honesty with...the world. But, you know, like, I, when I've had people who I have been close to die, like, I have noticed that I like...I shut down a little bit. And it's hard for me to understand how to interact with someone, I think, you know, because of this, like this weird divide that we have around death, this thing where it's like, "Do we do we talk about it? Do we talk about this person dying? Like, you know, with that person?" And I think this thing that I always wonder is I'm like, "What do people want?" Like that...What have you found people want when they're dying? When they're sick? When they have terminal conditions that everyone is aware about? Like? Yeah, what? What do people want? What I imagine they don't want are these awkward conversations where no one's really talking about it or people are hyper focusing on it. And like, I get caught in the...Like, where's the middle ground between those things? And like, personally, I'm like, I don't know, I can be--not like blunt--but just like super willing to talk about awkward things that are in the room. Yeah, I don't know. That's a weird, broad question. But yeah, what do people want when they're sick? Or? Roxanne 47:08 Yeah, I think that's a great question. And obviously, it's gonna depend person to person. And because of that, I think really just, you know, use your active listening skills and follow their lead. It's absolutely okay to ask questions. I feel like, in some instances, people really want to talk about what's going on with them, or the things that they're scared of, or resolving some aspects of conflict. And sometimes, people want to act like it's not happening at all, you know? And sometimes...And a part of that is people holding out, you know, some form of hope that at the, you know, at the 11th hour, something's gonna come in and change their situation. And there's a lot of different reasons for how engaged people do or don't want to be. But, I think it's always okay--You know, people are so worried about saying the wrong thing. And I don't really think that that's...I don't really think that that's possible. I think that as long as you're approaching someone with love, and compassion, and you're not pushing anything, if you get the impression, or someone says that they don't want to talk about something, let them be the guide and don't push it. But, I think oftentimes, you know, people might not want to, you know, constantly be harboring on, you know, the terminal cancer that they have or something. So, you can ask them about aspects of their day that brought them joy, you know? It doesn't have to be--just because someone's dying, that's not the end of their life, until they die. So, you know, there's still a lot of room for joy, and connection, and intimacy that has nothing to do with the inevitability of their situation. And, you know, I think that's true for for grieving people too, which maybe we'll touch on in the future, but I feel like when someone has someone close to them that dies, you know, people might not--oftentimes people don't talk to them about that because they're worried about, you know, bringing up something that feels hard or, you know, they just don't--people are scared of not having the right thing to say. And I think that, you know, asking questions and allowing people space to communicate their needs and desires. And, you know, for me, when I'm sitting with patients' families after they die, one of my favorite questions is to ask them about a story or like to ask them to tell me something that they really loved about that person. And that's, that can be like a really special moment because people, you know, we all like to brag on our people and bring that softness into the room and give people the opportunity to just really express gratitude and joy around the thing that they're, that they're gonna miss. Yeah. Inmn 50:43 Yeah, yeah. It feels like this isn't, you know, too much of a surprise, but from everything that you've just described, it seems like the best way to interact with people is to continue treating them like a person and having these humble and inhuman interactions in ways that you, you know, in the ways that we hope that we're interacting with or treating loved ones in all parts of our life already. Roxanne 51:18 Exactly. Inmn 51:20 But, it's like when death is suddenly a factor, when sickness is suddenly a factor, it's like something changes. And I don't know, does that, does that feel true? Or, I guess, that's something I experience, so I guess it's true. But like, yeah, what do you have to say about that? Roxanne 51:46 Yeah, I think it can change. And I think that keeping our eyes on how those things are changing, you know, is important. Like, maybe you have a close friend who's dying. So, obviously it feels like something is changing. But again, like, as we just said, like treating those people like people, asking about their day, you know, the more kind of mundane things, and yeah, I guess, like...I guess what I was thinking is like, questioning, like, you know, potential for internalized ableism around how things are changing, or why they're changing, and making sure that we aren't projecting that change on to someone unnecessarily. Because things are changing, all the time, every day, in every situation, for all of us. Whether we're facing an imminent life ending situation or not. Yeah, maybe that's not exactly the question that you were asking, but... Inmn 53:09 Oh, no. Yeah, I think that definitely covers it. I thought of this other thing while you were talking about that that was, I feel like, it's like, maybe the thing that changes sometimes is like, when someone, when we know that someone is sick or going to die, or likely going to die, or it's a question in the room, it's like a--this is not the word that I want to use, but I don't know what other word to use--It's suddenly like they are like...God, I really don't want to use this word. Really gonna try to think of another one. Not like a pariah, but like, it's like they're like...It's like a--I can't think of another word to use, so I'm just going to use it--and obviously this word has like different contexts--but it's like almost like an othering experience where like, this person is suddenly just something else. And--or like an alien. That's also not the word but like... Roxanne 54:24 Fragile? Is it fragile? Inmn 54:26 Yeah, maybe fragile? Roxanne 54:28 Yeah, I think, you know, giving space for the potential of fragility makes sense. But, I think it's also really important to not treat people like they're fragile just because they're dying or just because they're extremely sick, unless they have signified to you that that is a way that they want be interacted with. You know? I think I've definitely heard that a lot, especially from, you know, I was an oncology nurse for a long time. And I feel like I heard that a lot of my oncology patients were just being like, "Yes, I have cancer. Yes, I'm fucking dying. No, I don't want to be treated like I'm, you know, suddenly incapable of making decisions for myself or like everything is gonna hurt me or..." you know? Like, yeah, they're the--I think that it is really, you bring up a really good point about the othering aspect, and I think that that's like, from my understanding, a lot of what disability justice stuff is working on, is trying to shift the narrative of that othering. And, because... Inmn 56:02 Yeah, because that's like, that's a big thing for disability communities in our society is that they kind of get othered in this way or like... Inmn 56:15 I don't know, is that...We don't have a ton of time, but I would love to, if you have anything to say about bringing kind of that lens into this conversation of death, dying, and the conjunction with disability. It could be a larger conversation...Yeah, it could be an entire... Roxanne 56:15 Yeah. Roxanne 56:36 It could be its own...That is a very very large conversation. But, I think as far as how we treat each other, just yeah, really following people's lead and believing them when they say how they do or don't want to be treated. And that's true for all forms of living. That's true for all forms of dying, you know? Just making sure that we're checking ourselves, not projecting our own sense of urgency on each other, and just letting those people--meaning in this situation, people that are dying--you know, direct how things go. And yeah, there's really so much that can be said on that topic. And I'm so happy that you touched on it. Inmn 57:35 Yeah, I feel bad just touching on it. But it's kind of like where the conversation ended up flowing. But, which...Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess what I would just love to say about in this more brief context is that it seems like a lot of things that are applicable to the world of death and dying are things that disabled people have been talking about for a very long time already and like doing a lot of work around. Obviously, they're not the same things, but they're, seems like there's similar things that come up in both of these situations. And yeah, we should do a different other episode about that whole conversation. Roxanne 58:34 Yeah, there's so much to be said. And this is a really important thing to talk about. So yeah. Mhmm. Inmn 58:43 Yeah. Um, with that, we are kind of coming up on the end of our time for this, what turned into a two-parter episode, as much as I would love to make it a three parter episode, I probably can't talk for another hour. But yeah, obviously, I would love to have you and Wōen, and or like other people from Woven Ends to come back on and like talk about grief and mourning and celebration even. Yeah, and I just want to mention this because it's a piece--obviously, we could do a whole episode about this too. There's so many things to talk about. But, so you used to do a workshop about death and dying. And, that's actually what got me interested in doing this episode is that I went to one of these workshops, you know, years and years and years ago. And, as we've been doing this podcast, it's been this constant question in my mind, is like, "How do we prepare for death as a community?" And you know, maybe we can do an episode in the future that's just about that. But, there's this little piece from it that I just want to bring into this conversation that I, you know, probably could have gone in a different spot of the talk. But, obviously, we need to...The important thing is to have conversations as a community about death, about dying, about preparing to die, or preparing to get sick, or preparing to have some large life changing thing happen. And one of the things that that brought up for me was this idea that like, you know, a lot of people, especially queer and trans people, have some amount of separation between their lives and their biological family or the family that raised them, and these worlds can look very different. Like, a lot of us can build these separate worlds where we're these two different people depending on how out we are to our biological families or families that raised us. And, it brought up this big thing for me where I was like, "Oh, one big conversation that I need to have with my friends and my chosen family is how to talk to the people that raised me and my biological family, like two groups of people that I love, but two groups of people that I have very different and separate relationships with. And, you know, for other people, thinking about things like, does your...if your chosen family and your biological family, if they have to interact, does your biological family or the people that raised you, like, do they know what name you go by? Do they know that you're queer? Do they know that you're trans? Do they know that...Like, what gaps in information are there and having conversations with your friends now about like things that they might have to deal with if you get sick or die, in having those conversations with people who might--Like it might be great and civil and wonderful and everything goes really, really well and it's really joyous. Or, it might be incredibly conflictual and difficult. And, yeah, not really a question. Just a piece that I really wanted to bring it into the conversation. Roxanne 1:02:43 Yeah, definitely. And like, yeah. I think as much information as you can give your chosen family about how you want those interactions to go, you know. Some people are, you know, out to their community, but aren't out to their family and would like to remain not out to their family. And, that's okay. And, I think as a form of respect, you know, people need to use names and pronouns that are consistent with what someone is asking for in those situations. And, again, that is one of the many reasons why these conversations are so important. And again, just to keep plugging Advanced Directives, is why Advanced Directives are so important. And, you know, if we can write down even--if for some reason you don't feel like you can have those conversations with your family or your community, you know, you can write it down and, and give someone a sealed envelope that's like, "In case I die, please read this. This is how I want things...This is how I want to be talked about. This is how..." you know, because I believe and really trust at the end of the day that people want to honor you in the ways that you want to be honored and do really want to respect you and make decisions that are good and safe for the individual as well as the community. Inmn 1:04:33 Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, do you have any other last last things to say, anything that we didn't talk about, any questions that I should have asked you that I didn't? Roxanne 1:04:46 I don't think so. I just want to thank you so much for opening the space. I know that it is really a hard thing for people to talk about. You know, when we talk about death, generally, it's hard not to think about death, specifically, in our own circumstances. And, dealing with the fact that other people die means that we have to deal with the fact that we're going to die. And yeah, it just feels really special to be in communication with you about this. And yeah, I just, I feel really grateful that y'all were willing to open the space and this dialogue. And yeah, I just, I really feel like it's important. And, yeah, special. And I feel so grateful. Thank you so much for this. Inmn 1:05:46 Yeah, totally. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. I love talking about these things. And I'm so glad that there's people doing so much really amazing work around opening up these spaces and maintaining these spaces. And yeah, yeah. I don't know. Obviously, the work that you've already done to do that has made it so that I want to bring these conversations into this space of community preparedness. So yeah, thank you. Roxanne 1:06:22 Yay. Inmn 1:06:23 Is there anywhere on the internet that you would like to be found or that Woven Ends would like to be found? The answer can be, "No. Don't find me." Roxanne 1:06:39 Currently, no for Woven ends, and honestly, no, for me too, I do have an old death doula Instagram account that I used to refer people to, but I don't really use it. It's not a good resource tool. So, no. Inmn 1:06:59 I love it. I love when people can't be found and shouldn't be found on the internet. Roxanne 1:07:05 But if people have dire questions--Gosh, we really should have some kind of email or something. Maybe I can send that to you? Inmn 1:07:18 Yeah. Yeah, we can put some stuff in the show notes. Roxanne 1:07:21 Some sort of way for people. Yeah. Because I don't. Yeah. If people want to, I don't have a quick like, "Here's my Twitter handle." Inmn 1:07:35 Thank God. Yeah. Got it. Yeah, if you have anything, send it to us. We'll throw it in the show notes. The episode is not going to come out for a couple weeks, probably. Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much for coming on. And we will see you and Wōen back, hopefully soon, to talk more about this. Roxanne 1:07:58 Definitely. Thank you. Have a good day. Inmn 1:08:07 Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please live like you will die. Because we all will. But more importantly, talk to your community, your families, your friends, your ancestors, about death because having these conversations doesn't have to be scary and having them now can really make a difference in other's lives and for our end of lives. You should also tell people about the show, you can support this podcast by telling people about it. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Wōen and Roxanne from the Woven Ends Collective to talk about death, dying, death work, and everything from how to determine who gets to make decisions about your end of life, to how to have your remains dealt with in the manor that you would like, to how to bring community collaboration into death. Next week, they continue the conversation, focusing mostly on the work of death doulas. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript **Live Like the World is Dying: Woven Ends on Death & Dying Part I ** **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host for today Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. Today we're talking about something that we sort of reference all the time on the show, and that is death, a thing that we should all live like is going to happen someday. Because it is. I wanted to have Wōen and Roxy on to talk about this because I found myself thinking about it more and more as things change evermore rapidly in our world. And, I think it's cool to talk about because it's just another form of community preparedness that we can all engage in to make our end of lives easier for ourselves and for the people that we care about, and in general, just demystify the topic as we figure out how to leave this world, whether that pertains to navigating funerary industries, medical industries, legal logistics, medical interventions, the choice to die at home, how to have home burials, how to care for the dying, and how to have these conversations as a community. A content warning, obviously, we're going to be talking about some heavy stuff, and we approach it with some amount of levity, but we do talk at some point about the idea of choosing to die from the perspective of terminal illness. But before we get into it, we are a proud member of Channel Zero network of anarchists podcasts, and here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [saying these sounds like a song melody] Wōen **Inmn ** 02:43 And we're back. Thanks, y'all so much for coming on the show with us today, especially to talk about a subject that I feel like is like a little bit more grim than we usually talk about. Or, I guess we kind of always always talk about it, but we never actually talk about it. So yeah, would you like to introduce yourselves with your names, pronouns, and kind of like what you do in the world? **Wōen ** 03:17 My name is Wōen. I use he/him pronouns. I work in grave care, so burial, and generally any rot-honoring practice that I can help with. **Roxanne ** 03:41 And my name is Roxanne. I am a nurse and have been doing end of life, and death doula sort of work outside of that, for maybe 15 years or so. Yeah. **Inmn ** 04:01 Cool. And y'all are part of a collective that kind of specializes in this kind of work. Would y'all want to introduce that now or we could talk about it later? **Wōen ** 04:17 Yeah, no, we can introduce it now. Our collective is called Woven Ends. We're more recently becoming more outward facing. We're a collection of death care practitioners and community members who are interested in helping the community. We are focused on combating the domination and alienation in our world through making our death rites and the care for the dying more autonomous and a lot more intimate. **Roxanne ** 05:08 And accessible. **Inmn ** 05:12 Cool. Um yeah, it's weird how much the State is like intertwined in death. And that's like not...I feel like that's not something I ever realized until I realized it and then I was like, "Oh, like can you die without the State being involved?" **Wōen ** 05:35 Like the bureaucratic storm is also guided by the industry and a lot of the rituals that we have now and the way that death operates is it's a contrived effort, the funeral industry, to deal with all aspects after death. So, it's a really troubling, difficult thing that families and loved ones navigate. **Roxanne ** 05:35 No. **Roxanne ** 06:14 Yeah, it's pretty devastating. It's like Capital will take hold and commodify any and every aspect of our life possible and not even our life but our afterlife as well. Like yeah, it's hard to believe in true freedom sometimes, but that's why we're here fighting for it. **Inmn ** 06:38 Yeah, I feel like...Whatever, I'm gonna take like a pretty like light hearted and like whimsical tone today because we're talking about something grim, but I feel like we have these ideas that like, "You know, the State's got me in life, but at least when I die I'll be free," and it's like maybe? I mean, your body won't be. **Roxanne ** 07:14 Sadly, no. Eventually Yes but initially, no. **Inmn ** 07:22 Yeah, I feel like that is a literal nightmare of mine. Could y'all kind of break down like what is death work? Like what is a death doula? What is the Woven Ends collective kind of like do in like a material or emotional way? **Roxanne ** 07:50 Well, I can speak towards death doula work. What a death doula is, is a little undefined. And there are powers that be that are trying to make it more defined and kind of like more commodified. But basically, a death doula is someone who helps a family or a loved one sort of like go through the process. So that could look like, before someone dies, helping come up with some like legacy project, some things that people want to leave behind, or how someone wants to be remembered. So, that could be like, you know, if a 40 year old who has three kids dies, kind of legacy work you could do with someone in that situation is like, you know, help them record videos for their kids' future birthdays, you know, stuff like that so that way when their kids get older, like hit those milestones, they can have this video from their parent that has been gone for a while. So yeah, just kind of like, you know, one aspect is focusing on legacy work. Another aspect is just kind of like emotionally helping people with the grieving process, whether that be the person who's actually passing away or the family sort of like talking through the process of all of that with them. And then, you know, other aspects could be more helping set up funerary services, trying to help work on community aspects of disposition. Yeah, death doula is...It's sort of that the individual does different things. And I think if someone's interested in having a death doula, I would really ask questions about what specific services they provide. **Wōen ** 09:59 Yeah, And I can speak more to like our collective. We definitely, we try to connect the right people to help different community members. So, that could be a death doula or even a grave digger. So, a lot of what we do is like guidance around the whole process. And we definitely want to like expand our scope completely to be able to care for the whole process. But most of what we've been doing in the past, and currently, is helping folks with finding burial options that are accessible and hopefully free. And we've been able to create a network of free home burial grounds where we live. And it's been really awesome to be able to provide this for free. And it usually is in tandem with a lot more care going on with death doulas and generally the radial support that happens when you're trying to create a more autonomous situation. **Roxanne ** 11:28 I would also say that a part of the sort of intentional death work thing is to really help communities and individuals kind of like shift narratives towards death. We live in a really deathphobic society. And it is a thing that I think...you know, like, even in our introduction, we're like, "Okay, so this is a really grim topic," but it's interesting, because it's one of, you know, aside from being alive, it's the only other thing that everyone is going to experience, like the one thing that even if you have nothing in common with somebody else, the fact that you're going to die is a thing that you have in common. And so I feel like there's a lot of room for connection there. And, a part of the sort of work is to try to like, you know, find connection, find community, and sort of shift the narrative around this very natural and inevitable thing that's going to happen, and open up room and space for there to be beauty and transition in that instead of just fear. Because I think oftentimes, people don't actually...They're not scared to die. They're scared of being in pain. And those are very different things. So I think, yeah, just like...death workers offer a space for us to really intentionally look at that and say, like, "Okay, you're feeling scared? What is it that you're scared of?" You know? And really helping shift that narrative and also hopefully providing a space where nobody has to die alone. You know, sometimes that's just going to happen, but if at all possible, making sure that we can provide space--unless someone wants to--but they don't have to die alone. **Inmn ** 13:32 Yeah, we do live in a really deathphobic society. And I...you know, obviously it's a sad and hard and difficult thing, but I feel like I have always wished that there...that we as a culture did have different attitudes or different ways that we deal with it, or grieve, or like mourn, or whatever. I don't know, I've just had a couple kind of funny funerary experiences, where I was like, "Are we celebrating this person's life? Or are we mad at them because they didn't tell anyone how sick they were?" And that just like...Yeah, just like a lot of funny experiences like that. Whereas, I wish that we were, I wish we had, that we had a different attitude towards this right now because I'm not sure if this attitude is like helping anyone. **Roxanne ** 14:43 Yeah, definitely. And I think you bring up a good point too, where because of deathphobia but also because of our obsession with what we consider health, sometimes people are so scared to admit that they're sick because there's so little support and resource around that. And people don't want to be, you know, a burden to each other. And instead of being angry at our friends because they wouldn't tell us how sick they are, it's a great time to, you know, take a moment and be like, "Okay, why do we live in a world in which someone that I loved very much could not tell me how sick they were? And like, how do I fight that world instead of my friend?" **Inmn ** 15:37 Yeah, yeah, totally. You mentioned earlier--I just want to like hit on this before we get too far away from it--but there being some effort to make being a death doula more of a defined thing? And I'm--I know, this is subjective--but is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is that a complicated thing? **Roxanne ** 16:01 I mean, in my personal opinion, I'm not for that. I feel like the way...like I understand and respect people wanting to figure out how to do this work and still...Like, it makes sense to me that people want to do this work in a permanent way in this world that we live in, this society of capitalism, like people need to get paid for their time in order to survive. Like that makes sense to me. But, I think that there can be a kind of predatory nature to it. And these...It's like the commodification of the death, dying, death doula world is really similar to what happened in the birth community. And I think that's kind of interesting that the link between the two, because people have been doulaing each other since people were...were born about how to do these things. And, if we lived in communities where we were interacting with birth and death in more tangible ways then we wouldn't need sort of outsiders to tell us how to do these things. But yeah, I think that the certification process doesn't make sense. I think it's just another platform of institutionalization and commodification that isn't necessary, you know? It's like, okay, a lot of these certification organizations are offering education, which is amazing, yes. Like, education is so important. But the real education--and I feel like I learned this in nursing school, too--like, you can learn all the ins-and-outs of things, but where you're actually going to learn is through experience. So like, you want to learn how to be a death, doula? Go volunteer for hospice. Like, go watch people die and you will learn so much just from having that experience or like, you know--and not just hospice. You know, there's a lot of ways that people can sit with people at the end of their life. But, you know, like you don't need to pay someone to teach you how to be an active listener. **Wōen ** 18:37 Yeah, and I think...Like in the realm that I work in--which is what they call green or natural burial--like it's all the same pattern of pushing towards professionalization and specialization, and it's being co-opted by the Capitalist system. Even though a lot of these cemeteries that are providing this like really beautiful practice, they didn't intend on that and they structured themselves as a nonprofit. So they just continued to fall into the trappings of what happens when you professionalize something. And now there's overarching regulatory institutions and it's just...It makes it really hard to get into the process and start a cemetery and...Yeah, and they're walking hand-in-hand with the rest of the funeral industry, so, like annually increasing prices for these rituals that were supposed to be a lot more accessible and ecological, but they're not. They're not accessible. **Roxanne ** 20:07 Totally. And I feel like this...Yeah, this focus on specialization really, you know, negates and alienates the fact that we have inherent wisdom as to how to handle these situations. And then when we can't accept or like don't have--courage isn't the word that I'm looking for--confidence in our own, you know, kind of inherent wisdom, then we feel like we need a specialist to tell us what to do, but it's all right there inside of us in information that we can pass down with each other through, you know, actually having a relationship with death, and dying, and disposition, and all the things. So I feel like, yeah, the more we can be connected and like with death, honestly, the better we can be with life also. **Wōen ** 21:11 Yeah, and when we say, "disposition," we mean burial, cremation, you know, being eaten by birds, everything. It's a general term. **Inmn ** 21:27 Yeah, yeah. I feel like...it's fun to use this as the thing to compare it to, but, you know, I think it's important for us to like have, you know, guides through hard times or like people to...people who are very familiar with or versed in leading these experiences or facilitating these experiences, and it's...like, what you were just describing of kind of like what the Death industry is, it reminds me of a like boutique coffee shop or something. Yeah, like turning death and ritual into a boutique coffee experience that is just another strange industry that maybe people feel better about, but, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much actual connection or like community building that is doing? **Roxanne ** 22:36 Totally. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's a similar thing. Yeah. And again, they did that with the birthing community too. It's, yeah, it's sad. **Wōen ** 22:50 Yeah, and, you know, like with organic foods. **Inmn ** 22:57 Yeah. To kind of switch gears a little bit, why is it important to think about this stuff now? Like, why is it important to think about dying? Why should we be having these conversations as a community? **Wōen ** 23:16 Yeah, I mean, I think it's always been important when you want a culture that renews itself, and especially now when we're facing intense upheaval, developing a deeper intimacy with death, it helps us claim a place, and claim ancestors, and develop a deeper resilience to the chaos in our world. Like when thinking about movements and how under the regime of alienation, and the lack of intergenerational connection, and especially like connection to our ancestors, like, things can really be thwarted without those connections to place or to the people that came before. Yeah, and so being able to be with the unexplainable and unknowable aspect of like... **Roxanne ** 24:47 I think now, as Wōen was just saying, it's so important because we are living in pretty devastating times. It's pretty obvious, I think, to most people with what's going on with the climate, you know, with ecological destruction getting worse very viscerally year by year and not just in one place but all across the world where people are really...You know, you live in Arizona...Wait, maybe I shouldn't say that... **Inmn ** 25:33 I've said it multiple times. **Roxanne ** 25:38 Yeah, well, for example, you live in a place that in the summer if someone accidentally tripped and fell, they would burn themselves on the ground and potentially have to go to the burn ICU. Like, that wasn't true five years ago and it's just only going to become more true for more places across the world. And I think, yeah, just really taking inventory of the trajectory that the world is on right now means that we're...When you're living on a dying planet, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that we are a part of that planet and not separate from that. And I think also, you know, the question of "Why now?" is, like, both a societal question and then also kind of an individual question because I think...You know, I am 39 years old. I think most people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, even 50s aren't really thinking, and hopefully, you know...People even younger than that obviously, need to be thinking about this stuff, too. But I think that, you know, often the more like normative stance--which is also partially a bliss--is just to be like, "Oh, you know, if I have a fine bill of health then why should I be concerned about these things?" And we all know people die unexpectedly. We all know our relationship to health, and all the different forms that that can look like, can change at any moment. We all know that life isn't just inevitable. And so I think really thinking about these things and really starting to prepare for these things is one of the best things we can do to help not just, you know, those around us when we die, but also to help inform how we live our lives. No matter what age you are, I think it's important to be thinking about and talking about. I've been having conversations, for example, with my mom about the fact that she was gonna die since I was like five years old. And then at some point, I was like, "Oh, wait, if you're dying, that means I'm dying too. Shit, I'm gonna have to think about this." **Inmn ** 28:23 Yeah, what does? You know, this is the fun moment where we get to say the name of the podcast in a question, but how does one live like they're dying? Like, what does that mean? **Wōen ** 28:40 I mean, I think it's understanding that ecologically and spiritually the dead make the world. Our ancestors are not just like our [uninterpretable. "In our dirt?"]. They're what came before use. They're everything we eat, and breathe, and even conceive of, and dream of. So, it's fully opening our minds to understanding the deep cycle of life. **Roxanne ** 29:17 Yeah. And, you know, some intentionality, recognizing that the things that we do and how we treat ourselves and each other do matter, you know? Like they do matter because we are people experiencing each other. Or, they don't matter in the way that we are tiny pieces of sand floating around on this huge rock in this ginormous atmosphere. You know? It's like it's both. Both things are happening at the same time. We are a multitude it turns out? Both how we are and who we are matters and also doesn't at all. But I think just like really honoring the fact that it's a limited resource, that life is actually a limited resource, and that the time that we spend together is also limited, and trying to really love people while you can, to be brave enough to really love the people in your life while you can. **Inmn ** 30:32 Yeah, I feel like we have such a...our culture has such a focus on the concept of "later" and the future that like...And you know, this is maybe obvious because a lot of the society that we live in is founded on this idea of...or like founded by people who are informed by a religion that embraces an afterlife that...and something I've really appreciated about--I'm not necessarily an atheist--but like something I've always appreciated about atheism is that it is weirdly pro life and pro living in this way where it's like, "Yeah, there's nothing after this so you gotta do what you want to do now, not later. **Wōen ** 31:32 Yeah that's kind of...I mean, I think the Christian worldview is inherently disassociating from your body? Yeah. Not a good place to start. **Inmn ** 31:53 Yeah, just to switch gears a little bit, I want to talk a little bit more about the logistics of death. So, something that I think about a lot is like, if, you know, if I get sick tomorrow, if I get in an accident tomorrow and like my condition suddenly changes like rapidly, and I have feelings about how I want...like what interventions I want taken or how I want...Let's start with interventions. And then we'll move on to other bits, but how do I prepare for that? How do I prepare for getting the...having the interventions that I want taken or not taken? Or, how do I get to choose who gets to make those decisions when I'm no longer able to? **Wōen ** 32:59 So, the simplest answer to that would be to complete an Advanced Directive that's legally binding. And so this designates the person who will be your advocate legally, to make choices at the end of life and after death. Yeah, and this ends up...Yeah, this supersedes the legal next of kin, which without designating the power of attorney, will be your biological family. So this is really important if you don't want them to be in charge of what you want to happen to you at the end of life or after your death. **Inmn ** 34:00 Do you have something to add to that Roxy? **Roxanne ** 34:02 I do. I think that I just wanted to add that making choices around your health care power of attorney, like who that person should or could be, I think sometimes there can be a lot of pressure from people that are close to you that just because you're close with someone that they should be the one to help make those medical decisions for you. But, I would like to argue that maybe that's not always the best person. What you want in these situations is someone who will follow the directive that you lay out, because just because you have this document stating how you would like for things to go, at the end of the day, the healthcare power of attorney actually gets to make the final call. So maybe you say, you know, "CPR is okay. But I don't want to be intubated." At the end of the day, if your healthcare power of attorney decides, "I want them to be intubated," despite what your paperwork says, they can intubate you. So you really want to pick someone who can...who you think will follow what you've asked for and also someone who, even if they don't have the information themselves, will educate themselves or ask the right questions to make decisions that they think you will want. And it's also I think good to think about, you know, if, for example, you think your partner is going to be so worried and like so in a process of grief, that maybe they're not the one to choose because maybe it's better for them to just to get to be in the grief process and not having to make these big decisions. I've seen so many times in the hospital where the family feels like if they choose to, quote unquote, "Pull the plug," that they're the ones that killed their loved one, not whatever, you know, situation their person was in or just that the bodies can only handle so much. And I think that, yeah, giving someone healthcare power of attorney is--I'm not going to say it's a burden--but there is definitely the potential for weight behind that and it is a serious question. It's not...it's not a popularity contest. It's not about who you like the most. It's about who you really think can help make the decisions when they need to be made or who's going to be brave enough to call it when it needs to be called. **Inmn ** 37:24 Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. **Wōen ** 37:27 Yeah, I think that just kind of reveals the need for, you know, models of anarchist mutual aid where we all support each other. And it's like, being able to have these conversations and support each other outside of these really normative pathways of the nuclear family. And yeah, breaking that prescription on... **Roxanne ** 38:04 I guess I just wanted to add that, for sure, if you want to make sure, as as close as is possible...If you wanted to make sure as much as what's in your capability that your wishes are going to be met with interventions, having an Advanced Directive is the only real way to do that legally. So, if you don't feel like, as Wōen was saying earlier, if you don't feel like you fully trust your family to do the things that you would want to do, you have to have that written down. You have to have it notarized. You really have to go through that process. It's really important. **Inmn ** 38:45 Yeah, and then it seems what is kind of equally as important is having those conversations with your community and with whoever you're designating as your power of attorney, so that like...Yeah, it's like, I'm imagining in this situation that you've built where like, your partner might not be the best person, so you make this Advanced Directive and you designate someone, who's maybe not your partner, as the power of attorney, and then it seems like you have to then have conversations with that person, or with your community as a whole, about what you want. And then...Like, I'm imagining this situation where you do that and then it's like--so it's not entirely falling on one person--maybe one person has to legally make those decisions, but like other people can support them or like it can be a little like network of support that like kind of helps hold people to like what your best wishes were? Does that kind of make sense? **Wōen ** 39:53 Absolutely. And it's like…an Advanced Directive is not all encompassing. Like, being able to guide the types of rituals you want and...Yeah, like, every little detail that you want, you should be able to have, but you have to have those conversations and they have to be on going with as many of your loved ones as possible. So, the Advanced Directive is kind of a way to safeguard against the powers that be from taking control of your life and your death. But, it [hard to tell, but probably "lasts"] like a lot of other guidance that relies on being able to talk about it. **Inmn ** 40:42 So, this is something that I was kind of thinking about with this is like if...So, say maybe that in this hypothetical that I don't have like the best relationship with my parents, or say I have a fine relationship with my parents who are still alive, but I don't think they would make the best decisions, so I designate someone from, you know, my chosen family network to be my power of attorney. But then, you know, I get sick. I get into an accident. And suddenly, my family, my biological family and my chosen family, are in the same room. Is there? I imagine those situations can get pretty contentious, especially for my biological family to find out that they do not have the power of attorney. Like, I guess, obviously, you should maybe have those conversations with your family, but like I...You know, I would rather...I would rather not have that conversation with my family where I'm like, "Hi, I have taken away your medical power of attorney over me." But I also don't want to like necessarily entirely pass that off to my friends to deal with. Like...I don't know, have you like seen situations like that that were contentious, went well, or like, do you have any tips for navigating that? **Wōen ** 42:24 Well, I mean, in different forms I've seen it. I think it's important to say, once you have your power of attorney designated the family no longer have...like, they don't have control. The power of attorney does. And so like in a situation like you're describing, I think, the idea of communal care comes in, where you can have...Like, maybe the person who is your health care advocate isn't necessarily the one who is negotiating with the family or mediating. Just having more people involved to take care of the situation, I think is the best advice I can give. **Roxanne ** 43:20 Yeah, I would say, you know, I always push towards tending towards collaboration when possible. So if someone's family is just absolutely unwilling to work with, you know, the chosen family or the person who has power of attorney then honestly that situation actually just hurts them more. So, I think as much as people can collaborate, the better. And recognizing and appreciating the fact that everyone in a situation is going through some kind of fear and grief, and we don't always behave our best in those situations. So, trying to be generous with each other and give each other time and space to--you know, I'm not saying you have to deal with someone using abusive language towards you or anything like that--but just, you know, recognizing that this can be a real space of grief and that collaboration might not seem possible at first and then it is. I've had situations where collaboration seemed really possible. And then the friend's family member flipped out and tried to get us all kicked out of the hospital. This is before I was a nurse and was just a really kind of traumatic situation for everyone but ended up--like this is actually the situation that really got me on the tip of like, "Oh, we have to have Advanced Directives. This is like imperative." But yeah, I think, as Wōen already said, as much as people can work with each other and collaborate, even if you've been told stories throughout your whole friendship with someone about, you know, what a monster their parent is, or whatever, just like focus on the task at hand, which is helping your friend get safe, and accessible, and good care for as long as they can. And if you need the family to be a part of that, great. And if a family has to go--because sometimes the family's gotta go--you get to make that call. And it's like, if they gotta go, they gotta go. But hopefully that won't be the case. I think it's just...like from a harm reductionist standpoint. **Inmn ** 46:02 Yeah, yeah. Does a family have any legal recourse against a power of attorney? Like, I can imagine a family believing that they have some kind of legal recourse, but like could they sue people? Could they challenge it? **Wōen ** 46:22 I mean, I'm gonna say, no. I know that that happens like a lot of legal challenges happen. But in the moment, I think, what should guide is that health care and funeral services will honor the healthcare power of attorney. So yeah, I think that that is a risk in a really contentious situation, but it is not likely that the healthcare system or the funeral professionals will dishonor the Advanced Directive. **Roxanne ** 47:12 And it might be a situation, like in a hospital sort of setting, it might be a thing where they kind of set up a mediation with an ethics board sort of thing. But at the end of the day, the legal document is the legal document. Yeah. **Inmn ** 47:30 Yeah. And, I'm imagining that the answer to this is along a similar lines, but like, in the reverse situation, if I don't have a power of attorney designated or an Advanced Directive, but I have, you know, my friends that I've had these conversations with about this or I have a journal entry or something about this, I'm guessing that doesn't have...like, at the end of the day, it's the the family or the next of kin, whoever has been legally designated has all of that power to make those decisions? **Wōen ** 48:07 Yeah, and again, that's where a united community who can help, you know, maybe approach the family to be able to negotiate or collaborate. Yeah, that would be the right place to start. But also, if that's not possible, knowing that you can still hold space for your grief as a community even if you're separated from the actual process of dying and death, and that you can enact the depths of meaning that you need and connection with each other. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 48:07 Yeah. **Inmn ** 49:02 Um, to kind of switch gears a little bit, this is a weird question. God. How much does it cost to die? Like obviously, you know, if you do die then that expense is not going to be your responsibility, but I'm imagining this situation like from--I don't know if y'all have seen that movie Little Miss Sunshine. [Roxanne makes an affirmative noise] But like, the grandpa dies, and they're like, "It'll cost this much money to get the body," and they're like, "We don't have that." So, they steal the body. Yeah, how much does it cost to die and have your remains something or anothered? I don't know what...I don't know what a good word is. **Wōen ** 49:55 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can definitely speak to after death. I think the national average has risen, but like a few years ago it was around $8,000 to do a really normal funeral service like burial. More and more people are choosing cremation because it is cheaper, even though it is getting more expensive. And the average cremation cost is anywhere from $1000 to $3000 based on what type of package you buy from the funeral home. There's a lot of ways that funeral homes can be predatory. Not all funeral homes are predatory, but the vast majority are. And every year it gets more expensive. So yeah, it just depends on your form of disposition. So like, if you're doing cremation it's gonna be a lot cheaper. But often people choose that because it's cheaper, not because of thoughts of that's exactly what they wanted, you know? They're thinking about the financial situation of the family, and yeah, it shouldn't be that way. They should have the type of ritual and disposition that they want. Yeah, it's a pretty horrifying situation. Yeah. **Inmn ** 51:28 And, like, what happens to...You know, normally when you go to the hospital there's a bill, but if you die, like who has to pay for the care that you received? **Roxanne ** 51:44 Yeah, your family will get that debt as far as I understand. They're a next of kin kind of situation. **Inmn ** 52:00 So, when I think about my own wishes around my remains, you know, one of those fantasies or ideas is that I would love to, you know, not be embalmed. I would love to have my body rot in the ground. Is that possible? **Wōen ** 52:16 Absolutely. To start, the only federal law around death is that you don't have to be embalmed. It's a strange, actually good law as kind of a response to an exploding funeral industry I think around--I don't exactly remember--decades ago. And so a lot of advocates pushed for that to happen. Yeah, so you definitely don't have to be embalmed even if you go to a funeral home. And if they say like, "This is the only way," they're lying. But luckily that's happening less and less because natural burial, or what they call green burial, is getting a lot more popular. And it's, I think in all states now in this country you can find a place at least within like 100 miles. But, I would advocate that if you have access to land in any way, you should do a home burial, even if that means you have to go through some bureaucracy and like create an official cemetery. You should do that because you've now created a burial ground that others can be buried at in the type of way that you want, to honor rot, to honor the ecosystem. Yeah, so definitely what you want is very possible. **Inmn ** 54:15 Cool. Um, yeah, can--I'm sure it's complicated state by state--but like, can you if you own land, or you know someone that owns land, they can just designate part of it as a cemetery and then people can get buried there? Is that like? What is that process like? **Wōen ** 54:39 It really is county by county. Yeah, county by county. Yeah, it's really...I would say where we, where I am in the southeast, as a general statement, in any rural area it is widely practiced still and it's very easy to do home burial. And as another general statement, you just...you can't do this within city limits. And I think that, for good reason, because, you know, they are hubs of capitalism with land turning over and...Like, from where we're sitting even, you know, half a mile down the road, they're desecrating a Black cemetery that they just unearthed that had been paved over at least twice. So it's...I think, like, yeah. So, being able to be outside of the city limits is the best option and most accessible. I know some states are more difficult. And there's more...like there's more red tape. I would say to research where you live. Yeah. And really think about doing this for your community. **Roxanne ** 55:59 What a gift. We live in a time where land and space is becoming--I mean, has been, is becoming--such an intense battlefield for resources. It's just like a really, really intense thing to have is land and space. So being able to provide that for people for free, even just to put their body in is such an incredible resource. **Wōen ** 56:34 Yeah, I know there's...I know there's a lot of kind of...I've heard of some wild ways to have your remains dealt with that...Maybe just to add a little bit of fun levity to the situation. But uh, I've heard you can get turned into diamonds now? **Roxanne ** 56:58 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:00 Cool. **Wōen ** 57:00 You can get turned into a bowling ball. **Inmn ** 57:03 You can get turned into a bowling ball? I feel like this is a plot to a movie from the 90s. **Wōen ** 57:10 Yeah, I mean, it's...Yeah, you can do a lot with cremated remains. Pretty cool. **Roxanne ** 57:18 Mushroom soup. **Wōen ** 57:19 Uh-huh **Roxanne ** 57:20 I'm really into the soup, personally. **Inmn ** 57:22 The mushroom soup? **Roxanne ** 57:24 Yeah. **Inmn ** 57:25 What is the mushroom soup? **Wōen ** 57:27 What the mushrooms do. I would say it is a little...there needs to be more research on this mushroom soup. But, fungus is a late stage decomposer and this mushroom soup is something you're supposed to be buried in. That's what they're proposing. But often initial decomposition is way too hot and will eat up fungus. And so, it's a little bit not completely thought out. Yeah, so I wouldn't advocate for the mushroom soup, but I would advocate for, you know, creating an aerobic environment to be buried in so you rot really well. And you don't have to worry, the fungus will be there. They will be there to eat up your bones and all your desiccated tissue. Yeah. **Roxanne ** 58:30 I'm picturing like ground lasagna, you know, where there's like dirt, and worms, and things, and then like a layer of mycelial...input. **Wōen ** 58:47 Yeah, that makes the world go round. **Inmn ** 58:51 Yeah. And you can, like on a similar vein, I've heard in Oregon you can get composted? **Wōen ** 59:03 Yeah, I think now it's legal in eight states. It started in Seattle. They call it human composting or natural organic reduction is another term they use. But basically, they're accelerating the decomposition of your soft tissues. I think it's a really awesome thing, especially for folks who don't have access to land because you become soil really fast. And I think a lot of them partner with forest areas where they'll spread your soil. Yeah, I think it's awesome. And I really hope that they make it accessible, you know, like the rest of the Green Death movement. It remains to be seen. But, I hope that that happens. **Inmn ** 1:00:14 Thanks so much for listening. This turned into a much longer episode than we thought it would, which is great that there's just so much to talk about around this topic. So, that's the end of part one. If you enjoyed the show, please go talk to your community about death and tell us about it. And, think about filing an Advanced Medical Directive and power of attorney. We will be back next week with the second half of this episode where me and Roxy will talk a lot more about what it means to be a death doula. I know these topics can be hard and scary, but I think talking about them helps us to not worry about them as much and offers a lot of hope to our communal resilience. If you enjoyed the show, please go tell people about it. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support it by talking about it on social media, rating, and reviewing, or doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for, as much as I don't want that to be something that's true. You can also support us in a financial way by following us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We put out a few more podcasts including my other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchist literature, and the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to shout out some of our patrons in particular. Thank you Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis. Janice & O'dell, Paige, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and as always, Hoss the Dog. Thanks so much. We seriously couldn't do it without you. I hope that everyone is doing as well as they can with everything that's happening and we will see you next week for the second part of this episode. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Riley talks to Margaret about building DIY spaces, how to plan events, and how to build a culture around your events of inclusivity and solidarity. Guest Info The Pansy Collective can be found on Instagram @PansyColletive. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Riley on DIY Spaces **Margaret ** 00:15 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host, Margaret Killjoy. I have just found out that my co-host, Inmn, has a voice that's similar enough to mine that people don't know which one of us is hosting. So, you can tell it's me because I am charming and perfect...Shit, so is Inmn...Okay, so that's not really what matters here. What matters here is that today, we are going to be talking about--a lot of people have written in and been like, "But I don't have community. You talk about community preparedness all the time." And obviously, subculture isn't the only type of community, but it's one of them. And we're going to talk about subculture. And we're gonna talk about DIY subculture. And we're gonna talk about fucking doing shit yourself. And we're gonna talk to someone who has a lot of experience of doing that at the intersection of marginalizations and not just reproducing cis white hetero stuff. So, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Doo doo doo doo doo. Doo. [Singing a simple melody with words] **Margaret ** 01:34 And we're back. Okay, so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then why you think I've brought you on this podcast. **Riley ** 02:06 Hey Y'all. Yeah, my name is Riley. He/him pronouns. You brought me on this podcast because we're friends. And also because we've played some shows together and done some things together. And I'd like to think that we have some shared affinity and maybe even that we are in community together. So yeah, yeah. I think that's kind of why I'm here. **Margaret ** 02:36 Okay. Well, you have experience...When I was like, trying to think I was like, "Who do I know who has experience building DIY scenes and like punk scenes and musical "subgenric" scenes. That's definitely a word. Don't look it up. Do you have experience doing that? What's your experience doing that? **Riley ** 03:00 Yeah, you know, I do have some experience doing it. You said "a lot." I would say "limited." But, I organize with a collective here in Asheville, North Carolina called Pansy Collective. We call ourselves the "benefit booking collective" because a lot of what we do is book DIY shows to raise money for either trans people's surgical, or medical, or just living expenses, and also for grassroots projects that don't get funding any other way. Yeah, so we book shows, we throw parties, we also organize popular education and workshops and kind of use the concept of DIY community in a punk way to push people further to the left. **Margaret ** 03:56 I, I really liked that. I think...I don't know if it was the first time I met you, or just the first time I saw you play, was coming on 10 years ago now. And you were playing this playing this show. And the thing that just like really immediately struck me was how much it felt like...When I first got into when I was like a teenager, I didn't give a shit about punk because...I don't know, the punk on the radio was fine, but it just...Like I liked Sisters of Mercy instead. Well, at the time I probably like Marilyn Manson instead, but we'll pretend like I only ever listened to Sisters of Mercy. And then when I like fell into anarchism and I started going to these like basement shows in Baltimore and there was this shared sense of like urgency to change the world, and that this is a thing that we are doing collectively and a thing we're doing from direct action, even if it just meant that the five foot tall singer was screaming, "I'm going to break a 40 on the motherfucking Nazis face!" or whatever, right? You know, it's like, you like believed her, right? Cuz she was telling the truth. Like, she probably got arrested for that. Well, yeah. And like, a 17 year old from that scene caught 27 felonies for beating up Nazis like two months later...and beat all the charges. She beat all the charges. And so this is what struck me, is that when I went and saw you play, it was like one of the times I really felt that again. And it felt like there was like something there. And I'm wondering if you want to talk about like...well, I guess like punk and about what draws you to it, what keeps you there, and what you're excited about DIY scenes for? Or any of that shit. **Riley ** 05:43 Yeah, I mean, I can't pretend like punk music wasn't a facet of what radicalized me, right? And, I think exposure to--I mean, I wasn't a punk when I was in high school. And I was into riot girl feminism, specifically, was like a really point--and I feel like almost embarrassed to talk about it now, but let's own that for a second, right? **Margaret ** 06:10 Yeah, whatever.    **Riley ** 06:11 Or, what brought me into that was also another facet of radicalization, which was seeking resources for being sexually assaulted at a young age, right? So I'm like, getting politicized through finding feminism and having these kinds of first moments of...You know, I grew up in real rural North Carolina. There's not scenes where I'm from, right? There's not even punks where I'm from. And kind of ideas of resistance, even ideas of bodily autonomy, and that what may be happening to you isn't your fault, and that maybe it's okay to be queer, you know, like, these were like, really groundbreaking ideas as a teenager. And so I'm finding these bands that are kind of espousing these ideologies, and carrying energy that I had no outlet for--or maybe just had really unhealthy outlets for--before I started listening to punk heavily. And then, really moving to Asheville as soon as I turned 18 because in this area, the queer and trans people from rural spots are told, "If you want to go somewhere to find where the other gay people are, go to Asheville." And so I just listened to that and went where I could. And I mean, I had some really pivotal moments, both good and bad, you know, and I'm in really this kind of naive idea that like, "Oh, you know, I'm coming into this from a feminist lens, so punks must be not misogynists, right?" [Margaret laughs] And then I learned that that wasn't true really quickly because I started having shitty experiences in mosh pits and, you know, getting groped, and my friends getting groped, and, you know, just having, I mean, just unsafe experiences that also really, you know, pissed me off because it felt so not...like this is inherently against the ethos of what this genre is in my mind because, you know, I know this is what this is, like not even knowing that there's just a whole slew of apolitical [punks]--or people who, you know,  who're here for different reasons--you know, but it really...I saw a space that was missing. And it wasn't just me, it was, you know, an entire group of young-really-fucking-pissed-off-with-a-lot-of-trauma-and-something-to-prove-about-it queers who enacted a little bit of a takeover in, I don't know, like the early 2010s. And so, the punk scene in Asheville shifted from really...I mean, dude centric, to suddenly there's like, it's just like, these young mad queers who are wearing pink pink studs. And this is like, a few years before G.L.O.S.S came out but I feel like that era just really, yeah, there was a takeover that we both participated in. **Margaret ** 09:24 I kind of...I kind of watched it, but I really appreciated it and I...Yeah, okay. So I guess one of the things that people mention to me a lot when I, you know, when I talk about individual and community preparedness, right, all the time, and usually people are alienated by one of those two words. And either people are like individual community preparedness is just preppers doing nonsense. And then, or, community preparedness doesn't resonate with people literally because a lot of people don't have community. We live in this very isolated and isolating culture, right? And so one of the things that people say, you know, the reason that I...I was driving and I was like thinking about this problem, I was thinking about how people write this to me and I'm always just like, "I don't know, just fix it." And I'm like, that's not a useful answer to provide to people. And I was like, who do I know who perpetuates a subcultural space--that's funny. Usually, when we say "perpetuate," you mean something bad. But like, in this case, you know, "makes continue" is actually sometimes a very good word, if it's a good thing being perpetuated. [And I was like, who do I know who perpetuates a subcultural space and] Makes the subcultural space happen and happen on a DIY level. And so I was really excited to talk to you about it. But, so, the core of my question is like, you talked about how there's not really scenes where you're from? So what do you do? I mean, I guess in this case, the answer is you move to Asheville and then take over the scene, but that's not a bad... **Riley ** 10:53 Yeah. If in places where there's not...I mean, there's a particular context here because it's a small town, but it has a long standing history of punk activity, right? But thinking about the community I'm from, which I'm going to be moving back to pretty soon because I can't afford to stay in the town that I'm in. So, you know, I think about starting small and finding who is around and building with them because deep...Yeah, the way that artists, like rural artists, and the kind of freaky performers that live out in the woods, the way that they move in this area is by finding finding the, you know, the few people around them that they can build with and going from there, even if it's just one, even if it's just one person, or connecting to the internet. But, yeah, I mean, the way that we kind of worked to hit that mark and strive to support everyone is, one, by just casting a wide net. And that's, you know, thinking about how a lot of times, to find, whether it's just connecting with other queer people in a rural area, I mean, you gotta travel far. And so casting a wide net to people who maybe are outside of the friend groups, or maybe are outside of the social networks, and really specifying what your actual affinity is. Like, I see you at shows all the time, but what do we actually have in common? And build from there.  **Margaret ** 12:33 I like that because, actually, one of the next questions I wanted to ask you is about how I know other people who are not interested in punk because they feel like punk is like cool kids, right? And they're not cool. So, they clearly don't belong. And, that's...I'd love to be like, "Oh, it's just not true. Punks are all totally welcoming." And like, you know, you just described a bunch of experiences of punks not being welcoming. My first...The one punk in my high school got really mad. He decided I was becoming a leftist, which actually wasn't true at the time. I was a nothingist. Not in a cool way. I was just a kid. But, he like pulled me aside and he was like, "You have to listen to this." And he put like punk music on my headphones. But it was right-wing punk. And the only thing I remember is--I haven't actually bothered to look up a band that says this--but it's "Down on your..." I remember this very clearly. I was like 16 at the time and it's, "Down on your knees with a gun to your head. You're better off dead than fucking red." And so it's like Nazi punk shit, right? He wasn't a skinhead. He had a big mohawk and like...And I was like, "Man, this was not interested in me at all. Like, what the fuck?" But okay, so punk isn't always welcoming to people. But how do we make it more welcoming to people? Two questions: One, if you're already in the scene, how do you make it more welcoming to people, and two, if you're listening to this, and you're like, a 16 year old or a 35 year old or a 73 year old, and you're like, "This has interested me, but I don't feel...I don't know whether this is the kind of space I can get into." Like, how do you get into it? Or how do you help people get into it? Kind of a tangential question, sorry. **Riley ** 14:07 I think about...I don't want to say, "Just be fucking nice to people," but maybe maybe part of it is like be fucking nice to people. And don't reenact the high school lunch table drama-trauma of whatever everyone is holding. Yeah, I think about getting kind of like cornered by these kind of like gatekeepy dudes when I first moved here like, you know, it's kind of this typical like, "Oh, do you know this band, do you know that band? Do you even know what you know..." I remember this guy.  **Margaret ** 14:48 [Laughing] People really did that to you?  **Riley ** 14:50 At a show that I booked! Being like, "Do you even know what a mosh pit is?"  **Margaret ** 14:55 [Incredulously] No, what's that?  **Riley ** 14:58 No, no, I don't. Sorry. [dry] I actually said, "Is it like this?" and then punched him...Right in the Pensacola. But yeah, I mean, if you're in a position of power, in a position of, you know, some sort of...Like, maybe you know the people around you and you're seeing people that don't, or...Yeah, just engaging people and, you know, making a point to make people feel welcome is a really easy start. And if you're feeling unsure, I...Yeah, I don't know what to say. Because I don't...I think that attending shows and going out to social things, especially in this day and age, is such a small, small sliver of what DIY community feels like now. And so I'm also pushing back on the bounds of what even counts as a DIY event anymore? I'm like, how about that? How about that workshop? Or how about the trans woman's picnic? Or how about... yeah, the firestorm book club, I'm thinking about so many other spaces that count in my mind under this DIY punk ethos umbrella. **Margaret ** 16:23 That makes a lot of sense to me, especially as someone who doesn't...My write up about the anarchist bookfair I just attended and played was, "This is great. Why do shows start so late? Some of us are old. Why are there kids on my lawn? Why did I have to walk uphill both ways to get here?" But, what you're saying about like just like being nice to people, it's funny how that sounds like an easy answer, but it's like actually the easy answer. And it's actually not that hard. Like, I think about...I've spent a lot of time in like nerd spaces subculturally. Like, I've spent a lot of time at like nerd conventions of various types, right? And like, one of the things that is a cultural norm that people are trying to normalize at science fiction conventions and shit is that if you're like standing in a circle of people and you see someone standing at the periphery of the circle, to open up the circle, and so that that person is now standing in the circle. And even if they don't say anything, they're now standing in the circle the same as everyone else, right? And, you know, and you don't have like necessarily as literal of a thing, because like science fiction conventions, there's literally people standing around in circles all weekend. Like, yes, it's kind of... **Riley ** 17:40 Like, I mean, people have a lot of drama on the other side of it about taking people, taking strangers in, you know. Who is this stranger in the wilderness? You know, I'm thinking about how people have been like, you know, "Who is that new person standing over there looking like they're trying to account for something," you know? "That person's a cop, probably!" you know? Or like people start doing all of this in your head speculation and I feel like, you know what's a really good way to try to figure out if someone is a cop or not? Go up and say, "Hi." Go up and have a little conversation. It's really easy to tell really quickly versus just mean mugging the shit out of somebody, you know? You'll never find out anything that way. But yeah, I think people have a lot of trauma on both sides. Like, I don't know that person. It's like, put yourself out there.  Or don't. You also don't have to talk to anybody at the show. [Laughing] **Margaret ** 18:41 Yeah, that's true, too. Okay, so you're talking about like what DIY feels like now and how it's different, right? And, I really appreciate that as, you know, as someone who like...I'll go to shows forever. And I'll ideally, play shows forever, but it's not as much what I'm interested in engaging in. And so with Pansy Collective, do you put on a lot of different types of stuff? Or do you just feel like the larger community that you're part of like you put on lots of stuff? Like, what are some of the things that people could be doing? **Riley ** 19:11 Yeah, I mean, we...I will say that My only interest these days is booking benefits. And my only interest is, you know...Back in pre lockdown times, we would set up shows for bands that are rolling through town, we would organize a fest specifically for rural queer and trans independent artists of all different, you know, way different genres. And nowadays, most of what we do is just trying to fund our struggling community anarchist projects by booking parties. And it's all over the place. I mean, we recently did a cake sitting benefit where we had someone bake 20 cakes and people sat on them and it raised a bunch of money for the book fair. You know, just like it varies from random, gay, pervy dance parties to punk shows to workshop series. We give the people what they want. But, it's kind of like it's either a gay dance party or a punk show, is kind of what it boils down to. **Margaret ** 20:25 I think I've been to a like--I don't know if it was you all that put it on, seems like it would have been--like a wrestling competition? **Riley ** 20:34 Yes, the lube wrestling competition. That was a fun one. That was definitely a pre-lockdown party for sure. But yeah. I mean, something I think about too with booking benefits is you want to hit a good like...So I think about what it takes to book a benefit that is both accessible to our community, who is broke as fuck, and also will raise money for whatever projects. And I mean, the projects that we've been funding lately have been the queer powered prison books project here in Asheville that sends free books to incarcerated queer and trans people.  **Margaret ** 21:18 Is that Tranzmission?  **Riley ** 21:19 Yeah, Tranzmission Prison Project, **Margaret ** 21:21 Which people can look up and support if they would like. It's been around for decades at this point and often has been one of the only projects doing this work at a time when it's incredibly essential. Anyway... **Riley ** 21:35 Yeah, they get so many letters in and really just rely on community support to get the books out to people. So yeah, we've been supporting projects like that. And I think about what it takes to, you know, kind of hit this mark of like, okay, we want this event to be accessible to everyone and we also want to make sure that we raise enough money to support the project and pay artists well, right? Because at a certain point, we realized that if we want to book the artists that we want to book, they need support getting...You know, like, booking especially--and we kind of learned this lesson through co-organizing with some Black trans performers and promoters from Richmond in 2019--like, if you want to book Black and brown artists, you need to pay people well because at the end of the day, if you're just asking artists to donate their time and labor to perform a benefit then only the people who have the privilege and access to be able to donate that time and labor end up being able to perform, and those people are, by and large, white people. So yeah, we really shifted our values to like, just because we're booking a benefit doesn't mean that artists aren't going to get paid well. Everyone. And on top of that, hitting the mark to make sure that, you know, the community project gets a little something too, it's a hard mark to hit. But, you know, I think about going back to that lube wrestling event, which was truly iconic, and you know, charging five bucks at the door and five bucks to enter and making everything always, "If you don't have the money to donate it, don't worry about it." **Margaret ** 23:29 I think...This is really interesting to me. One thing that's changed a lot from like early aughts anarchism, which is as far back as I can speak to personally, was, you know, this culture of, like now we pay people. Like now it's like not bad to get paid for the work that you do. And in retrospect, it almost seems odd, like the whole thing is we come out of this like working class movement, you know? But, I also understand why we had this like, volunteerism thing, right, you know? But, I also...I'm glad we moved out of it. But one of the things that's so interesting to me about like benefits, right, is that it really points out, it highlights to me that there's two points to benefit. One is to raise money. But the other is--well, there's three points. You're raising money. You're raising awareness about the issue. And you're also building community and you're tying the community to activism directly. And when I think about how to fund a project, like the Empire Records model has never been accurate. Like you're never just like, "Oh, we got to save the struggling, small business run by a white guy. But, we are gonna do it, and we're gonna throw a party, and now it's saved because we raised so much money." And that is not the right attitude about benefits. But instead, because I think if I'm like, man, if I really want to fund a project...Well, historically--and I would never recommend this. Anarchists usually do crime in order to fund projects--but, usually people just go out and like are either like get yucky tech jobs, and then just like one person is going to throw down as much money as like the next 50 people who come to the benefit. And that's great. And that's good. And that is a good thing to do and people who have access to work to get a bunch of money should put those resources into the movement, but it doesn't build community the way that a benefit does. And to me these seem like they go really well together. **Riley ** 25:28 I think so too. Yeah, I think it's...you know, it serves the purpose of, yes, us getting together. And I'm really thinking in this kind of specific queer and trans lens. Like us just getting together is a radical act. And also, to push that a little bit further, we're getting together to support people that are behind bars, that we're trying to break down this barrier and break down these walls, and part of how we can do that and kind of, you know, disintegrate the myth that there's any difference between our queer and trans siblings on the inside versus us is by just naming it every chance we get, and normalizing that conversation and really bringing it to the table because there probably are people in the room present who maybe haven't decarceralized their ideologies, or maybe just haven't had a chance to think about it. And I don't think that, I don't know, college classrooms or, you know, on the internet are the only places that we can kind of have these conversations or draw this awareness, you know? **Margaret ** 26:37 Because there's also podcasts. **Riley ** 26:38 There's also podcasts. Or, just listening to me drunk ramble at you at a party. I don't know. I'm sure that I've single handedly turned at least two people onto our side that way. **Margaret ** 26:56 That rules. And if they all turned two people on by drunk ramblin to them at a bar then... **Riley ** 27:00 Keep going! **Margaret ** 27:01 Fuck yeah.  **Riley ** 27:06 I mean, and also I think about, you know, as a promoter, I feel like I need to qualify after saying that I'm drunk rambling at people, that setting up a fucking table with a bunch of harm reduction supplies and just leaving it, setting up a bunch of free shit at a show and just leaving it. If you're thinking about like I want to way to radicalized the party spaces in my town without having to lean in too far, or don't want to be there the whole time, show up with a bunch of zines, and Narcan, and condoms, and leave them on a table and scoot.  **Margaret ** 27:45 No, see, this makes sense to me. And it also is like, as someone who's like fairly...I don't think I'm anti-social, especially since anti-social implies, like, against people hanging out having fun. Although at various points I have been against people having fun. That's how I got the name Killjoy. Right. But, you know, as someone who doesn't go to parties as my like, hobby, right, tabeling is perfect. Tabling is...like going to the space and being like, "I have a purpose. There's a reason I'm here." And, you know, if you're someone who's listening, and you're like worried about how to be...yeah, how to be contributing, like especially if...A lot of people I think struggle to be just an attendee, right? And so yeah, if you set up a little harm reduction distro, or a zine distro, or a combination of the two, or whatever else, you can set up and leave, or you can set it up and hang out and be like, "No, it's cool. I'm supposed to be here. I'm sitting behind a table. That's why I'm not dancing. Everyone thinks I'm not dancing, because I don't like dancing, but it's actually because I'm stuck. behind a table." **Riley ** 28:49 I have an important job to do.   **Margaret ** 28:50 Yeah, totally. I would definitely be dancing and enjoying dancing, but I'm stuck behind this table. If anyone identifies with that. **Riley ** 29:00 Exactly. I just I want to push like, one no-fun-insurrecto listening to this to go to like one dance party and have a couple conversations with people. And I want to have...I want to challenge one listener who's constantly at the dance parties to like, I don't know, go to a gun range or listen to this podcast or something. Yeah. **Margaret ** 29:20 And actually, because you talked about how like punk rock radicalized you, right? And sometimes when I talk to people and people are a little bit dismissive of that, you know, or usually about their own stories. I've never heard anyone be dismissive of other people getting radicalized that way. But you know, it's like people are like, "Oh, like Green Day got me in," or whatever, you know? And I'm like, well, one, Green Day--I don't know if they still do, but they throw...like when the AK Press ware house burned down, they threw a benefit and this is well after they were famous as fuck--but, I think that actually there's like something to the fact that subculture carries the flame when larger social movements have gone away. I actually think that this happened in the 1940s. Sorry, everything I do now has to tie into history because it's what I do, is read history books all day. But, like, there's like this dead period in anarchism and actually most leftist stuff that isn't like purely Bolshevism or whatever, right? After World War II, a lot of us died. And the people carrying the flame were like art movements, and anarcho pacifists in New York City, and Jewish anarchists, who were primarily focusing on the cultural things that they were reproducing in their own culture. And, I think that the same is also true of the like 80s and 90s, that punk and other subcultures carried the flame, not just of anarchism but a whole lot of radical ideas through this very dead period. Obviously, a ton of shit was happening. But overall, there wasn't as much radicalism in the United States as there is more recently. So, I think subculture's a brilliant way to get people in. Yeah, I don't know. **Riley ** 31:05 Yeah, and the internet, I think, has really played a big role in this too because we think about aesthetics, and social media, and how...Yeah, I think about how Covid and the internet usage in the cultures that kind of arose when everyone was, you know, really not able to get together. Punk aesthetics has maybe been like a unifying point. And that that can be a point of radicalization too. It's like, okay, we're getting together for this. And like, if it's the right people engaging, right, it's like, we're coming together for this need to belong, and kind of unifying around a common interest, a common hobby, a common sound, whatever it may be, right? And it's bringing that, you know, the ethics, and the core values, and the core tenets back up and kind of, you know, passing along, if we're carrying the torch, we're also passing it along, right?  **Margaret ** 32:00 Setting people on fire, you mean? [Joking] Okay, so, what does it look like to throw a benefit? Just like, run me through it. I want to throw a benefit. What do I do? **Riley ** 32:15 Yeah, first thing you need to do is identify when and what the goal is. So if you, you know, you say, we have this action going down. We want to do this thing. It's going to take this much money. It's going to be on this date, so we need to have a thing say that's gonna happen a month away. We're gonna book thing. I mean, I would encourage people to not start planning an event within one month of when they plan on executing whatever event it may be. Find a location. Things that I encourage people to consider are just general access of that location. If it's a bar? Or is it going to be an all ages type thing? If it is a DIY space, what does the accessibility of that space look like? Think about physical accessibility, whether or not there will be like an open outdoor space or if it will be enclosed. Whether or not you're going to ask people to wear masks at the space, just kind of general accessibility concerns. Once you have your location locked down. And, you know, there's other things that maybe you'd consider. Maybe you have a connection with somebody who has a space. Maybe it's someone's basement. There's a...Maybe it's under a bridge somewhere. I mean, you can do anything anywhere. Whatever it takes. And the more DIY you want to go, and by that, I mean, like, if you want to say throw a party under a bridge, identify your people that are going to help you because you cannot do that on your own, right? And so if you...say you and I are now just throwing a party under a bridge, that's what we decided on.  Identify what you need and that's going to look like... **Margaret ** 34:13 So we need a generator...  **Riley ** 34:15 Find your people who are going to perform. What is this going to look like? Is it going to be...Are we throwing a goth rave and Nomadic Warmachine's is going to play? Great. Okay, so now we communicate with our artists in the totally professional and respectful way. **Margaret ** 34:32 Promised him that it starts at 7pm and is over by 1am. **Riley ** 34:36 Yes, yes. Or you don't and you don't hold to that at all. [Joking] Yeah, communicate well with your artists. Figure out what their rate may be. And then, once that is secured, then you have your artists, you have your location, you have your date. You need to make your promotional materials and you need to secure your speakers, PA, fog machine...I don't know, whatever you decide that you need. And I mean, I really encourage people to do whatever they want. So, get your lube and giant pools for your lube wrestling party. Whatever it is. But, I don't know, Asheville loves a gimmick. So, we're always throwing a gimmick in there. You know, I also like...Encourage people to figure out what the people around them like. But yeah, so we're at the point now where we have our artists, and our location, and our venue, and we have a flyer, and we have a PA secured. And then, you just put the word out there. I love to hit the streets with a staple gun. And I think that that is a perfectly fine thing to do. And social media is great as well. We promote online, and we promote in the streets, and we pass out handbills at other events. And that's my three main modes of promoting. Maybe you have a listserv in your community that you can let people know. Maybe you can ask the performers to promote it on their networks as well. Maybe your friends with one of the performers with a podcast who can mention it on her podcast. It's about reaching out. I mean, always, always communal over individual when it comes to doing anything, I guess, but doing this as well. You know, reach out to all of your networks and make it less about who it is and more about what it is and what brings us together. And then you do it. And, I mean, unfortunately, we have to take safe...pretty serious safety considerations into the parties that we throw because of threats of violence in the past. Yeah, Margaret and I have both been doxxed after various things that have happened in Asheville that were just fun little events. And so yeah, maybe there's...and again, this is like where I go to collectives and the people you know and the people you trust because we aren't cop callers. And if something were to go down at one of our shows, we put pretty intentional consideration into safety planning, having a medic there in case someone, you know, breaks their leg at lube wrestling, or if, you know, if something really hits the fan, just having having safety plans in place feels important too. What is the evacuation plan if the cops bust up your under the bridge rave? And how can you make sure that everyone is accounted for and that, you know, the marginalized people present are not just left to, you know...that people have each other's backs. And building that culture does start, I think, with the people who are hosting the event. **Margaret ** 38:07 No, that makes a lot of sense to me. Every part of that. And one of the...to the not leaving people behind thing, one of the things that I think actually really behooves experienced...People have experience in the streets and have experience with conflict with police. I have a pretty strong sense of self preservation. And I tend to know the best exit at any given point. And I'm pretty good at getting out of situations. What actually behooves me in crises is to use the fact that I have that experience to not be the first one out. But instead, to help the people who don't have that experience to get out. The more experienced people should be the people who are taking a higher level of risk. The organizers should be the people taking a higher level of risk. The organizers will be more in the know. They'll be more aware of when police are coming, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's a time to be brave. Most, you know, obviously most DIY shows and stuff have nothing of the sort, you know, like but no, I really like.... **Riley ** 39:16 Yeah, I'm just thinking about a time, I'm thinking about a time that some gay college kids here in Asheville threw a house party and some random dude that was a neighbor wandered up on the party and he was being weird. So, he got asked to leave. So he came back with a gun and he fired off a round into the ground, but he was obliterated wasted. And, I mean people people handled it...They responded quickly and handled it as well as they could. But, you know, after that happened, some anarchist homies came through and did porch sitting on their porch for a couple of weeks, but also sat down with them like, "Hey, let's let's make some safety planning for if this happens in the future," and that actually brought like probably 15 or 20 people that I would have never thought they would show any interest in community safety work, you know? And this goes back to just discounting people or not being maybe kind of people like, consider the Yes.... **Margaret ** 40:24 These like apolitical party kids... **Riley ** 40:27 These a political party kids could be on our team with one...It takes not...you know, it's maybe they already are, you know? And that was a really powerful experience because I think...We felt very grateful on both sides. And there was no, there wasn't really a both sides, which we all really kind of knew each other. But, you know, there was a divide. Oh, those kids aren't really with our shit. Oh, those people aren't really, you know? And it was a really unifying moment. Like, yeah, now these party college kids are really down with the struggle and will show up to do porch sitting for others if they need it, you know? And it sucks that it takes a near tragedy for that to happen. But, what came out of it was we safety plan for everything now. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're running scenarios like it's...you know? I mean, because that's what makes me feel like at the actual event, I can relax, because I know, "Well, if something goes down, we have a plan for it." And actually, I mean, the queer and trans events are not getting any safer, not because of anything we're doing but because of increased violence. So, I don't know what...I'm not gonna stop being with my people. So, at the very least, I can increase safety for them. And for myself. And you can do it for me, like, it's not just... Yeah, we work together for that. **Margaret ** 41:59 No, I love it. And the ethos of, "We keep us safe," we just have to like actually mean it and we have to actually think about what it involves. No, this ties in so well to one of the things that I talk about a lot on the show where I'm like, one of the reasons I have a go bag is because I live in the woods and wildfire is a thing that exists. And so I prepare for that. And now I don't worry about it all the time. And what you're talking about, like yeah, I was recently at the Asheville Anarchist Book Fair--I don't think this is a surprise to anyone. I'm not doxxing myself by saying this, I did a talk, played a show. It was very fun. You all did a great job. Yeah. And, I didn't worry incredibly about my safety because of that, because I knew that there were people there doing security. I knew that they were not power hungry type people. If anyone listening is like thinking about doing community defense, that's amazing and beautiful and essential, and takes a certain mindset, and it takes a certain calmness, and it takes a certain...the kind of person who is not looking to exert power over other people. You know? Anyone who thinks in their heart is a petty tyrant, you should be the person to distribute condoms for free and instead, which is also essential. And now don't go up to everyone who's distributing condoms and decide that they're a petty tyrant. Unless they're not letting you have condoms. Unless they're like, "You don't need a condom, you're not getting laid," then you should be opposed to them. **Riley ** 43:32 Flip the table. **Margaret ** 43:34 That's right. Fuck your safer sex. We live danger...[Joking tone] I don't...No, that's like...I really like how much this immediately ties into all the preparedness stuff, because this is what community preparedness is, is building culture, building community. Because the other thing, the way you're talking about this, this is community organizing. [Riley makes an affirmative sound] And like people, I think sometimes think of subcultural spaces, whether it's queer dance parties or punk shows or raves or whatever, as being outside of...people think subculture is distinct from culture, but there is no culture. There's no mainstream culture. You ever talk to a normal person. They're not normal. Like, they may dress as normal as they want, but everyone's got something. You're like, you're talking to someone and then they're like, "And the aliens..." and you're like, "Huh." **Riley ** 44:29 I thought you were into a thing by the way you dress, but you're into a thing.  **Margaret ** 44:34 Exactly. And like, we just have a myriad of intersecting subcultures and we shouldn't be...I don't know. I think that building subculture and especially intersecting subcultures, and like...Like I love that at the book fair, there was a lot of different genres and there was a lot of different things happening. It wasn't just punk, right? And I love punk, but not as much as I love goth, and you, you know, like, I don't know, those weren't the only two genres. I'm just...Yeah. **Riley ** 45:07 Yeah, we had a really great time. And I am thinking more about this safety and what the role of, you know, I think about what my asks are as a promoter of people who are willing to show up to do some role of safety at our events. And I'm back at it again, be nice to people. Like that is one of my main asks over and over again, like, the main energy, I mean...it's a really...And I can usually from talking to someone for a few minutes, gauge to some level, what their ability to do deescalate a situation is. And just like you said, if someone is coming in hot with something to prove, it's like, "No, you're going to be serving beans and rice because that is not the energy we need," you know? And that is...I just have to honor the de-escalation training and the safety trainings that I've received that taught me that, you know, we don't need to reproduce militancy, or ugly masculinity, or yeah...There is no aspect of that, that keeps us safe. And I have been able to do more with my gay voice, and my demeanor, and my just looking someone in the eyes and smiling at them and asking them and like, you know, trying to build points of affinity to de-escalate a situation have been able to accomplish more that way than I've ever been able to accomplish by like, trying to get buck with somebody and trying to like...I'm doing something on a camera that people can't see... **Margaret ** 46:55 Just imagine, just imagine. Riley. Fist up. Head side-to-side. Shoulders also side-to-side... **Riley ** 47:03 It looks like I'm doing a bird mating dance. **Margaret ** 47:09 Well, no, and I, I like that too. Because it's like, it's also like, because most of it is that and then sometimes a bunch of people sit on your porch all week with guns. And while doing that, are not not macho, are communicating, are friendly, are friendly with neighbors, aren't walking around with long guns. I mean, obviously, there are situations in this world where that is necessary. But that's not usually what we're talking about. You know, usually we're talking about people who have specific training that is, especially in medical and like keeping people safe, but also includes like, concealed carry and all of these things. You know, that is a...Whenever non Americans listen to some of the stuff that I talk about, people are like, "Well, fuck, y'all are in trouble." And I'm like "Yeah, we're in trouble!" **Riley ** 47:58 We really are. **Margaret ** 48:02 It's the "I'm in danger," meme, but it's like, but it's okay. Like, that's the other thing that you're talking about being like...you know, you don't go to a movie and you're like, "Why are they showing us the fire movie, the fire exit movie." I guess they don't do this anymore. When I was a kid, you would go to the movie and it would show you like, "Please note the nearest exits." You know, it doesn't mean that the fucking movie theaters gonna burn down. It means that it might and you should know what to do. You know? And, so like bad things happen. Still, probably driving to and from things is more dangerous than doing things like that is...I remember I was reading about like wolf attacks, and like bear attacks, and shit, well camping, and everything was like, "Yeah, you know what the most dangerous part of camping is? Driving to the camping spot."  And I say that not because it's like, everything's safe, but rather we clearly do accept danger. That is part of living. **Riley ** 49:13 Yeah, I just want the danger to be like getting consensually kicked in the face during one of your friends sets in a pit and not like someone throwing punches and calling you slurs outside. **Margaret ** 49:26 Totally. And if I want...if that happens, everyone to know that the plan is to beat that person into the ground and no one talked to the police about what happened.  **Riley ** 49:37 We saw nothing.  **Margaret ** 49:37 We all talked to lawyers instead.  **Riley ** 49:40 Exactly.  **Margaret ** 49:42 No, no. Okay. I like this. This has me excited. Every now and then I'm like...most of the time, I'm happy that I live in the woods and don't do anything. And sometimes. I'm like, wait, sometimes I miss the fact that I did all of these things and I will do these things again. Okay, so you hinted at it a bunch of different times and you talked about different ways to be inclusive, including accessibility of the space for people of different mobility needs, accessibility of letting people know what the Covid risk is, and even like letting people know what the accessibility is, right? Like, own up to it if your space is not wheelchair accessible. And actually, hopefully, by owning up to it, you're kind of like slowly pressuring yourself...Tell me if I'm going about this wrong, but in my mind that you like then kind of slowly pressure yourself to be like, "Oh, I really hate saying that it's not wheelchair accessible, maybe we should..." **Riley ** 50:30 Right, like, maybe I should find a wheelchair accessible place. Even, because that's something I've really processed. I have to give it to a local group DIYabled to really push for accessible spaces within the DIY community here in Asheville. Because I really assessed it with this person, her name is Priya, who kind of runs that group. Like, I want to find these spaces that are accessible, but it's, you know, it's...We live in the mountains. There are...a lot of them just aren't. And, you know, I feel, you know, all this guilt about that. And she's like, "No, like, disabled people greatly appreciate you just saying it. Like, no shame, no shade, like, just let people know so they're not haulin ass all the way out there to find out when they get there, or having to ask first." Like, yes, it does put that pressure on. And even if you aren't like, I really want to find them accessible space, and the space just simply isn't accessible, naming it is increasing access because it's not forcing someone to travel to a place that they can't actually get into, you know? So, no shade at all, if you can't find that kind of space, but... **Margaret ** 51:47 And that makes sense. And then like one of the things that I think about...I'm someone who, you know, I'm very Covid careful, let's say. And, like, I really appreciate when places are like honest about like, you know, "Hey, masking is going to be encouraged," or, "Hey, masking..." Like, like, the thing that would make me sad is if you go to a space that's like, "Masking required," and then like the organizers aren't wearing masks and no one's wearing masks. I'd rather you just didn't put that on the flyer at that point, right? Because then you can make...I can make my own decisions around that. And, you know, I'll...And so like putting on the flyer, like, "Outside space is available," you know, or whatever, right? Like, no, that's interesting. And so, okay, so I'm wondering what other inclusivity, not just accessibility, but like inclusivity things are. Like you mentioned, for example, about paying people. Like that helps remove barriers of access, you know, for Black and brown folks and for people who suffer from class oppression as well. What are some of the other hot tips for inclusivity with Riley? [Said like it's the name of a talk show segment] **Riley ** 53:04 Let me think about that for a second, because I think that at the end of the day, it just boils down to like who is...Maybe it doesn't boil down to who is organizing, but um...Yeah, I wonder like, who is the event actually for and what is the goal? What is the goal? You know, because I think about, you know, how different Pansy Collective might look if the intention was to book queer artists but we weren't in ourselves queer. Or, if I was just like a punk promoter who was like, "I want to make my shows better," but wasn't actually gay. I don't know if it would feel differently. So I'm just like, actually, maybe part of it is...us? We got to be the ones doing it. **Margaret ** 54:05 You mean, like, doing it ourselves like it is in the name? **Riley ** 54:09 It's almost as if we're doing it ourselves. They should call that something do **Margaret ** 54:15 DO. We'll call it DO. [Both are laughing at the dry joke] **Riley ** 54:18 I actually do remember at some point writing something about Pansy Collective and I like closed it off on this line that I was so proud of that was like, "We call it DIY, but really it's DIT, doing it together." And that rings fucking true. I mean, it's a little doing it together... **Margaret ** 54:41 That's a little ditty [Makes "Eh, eh" noises to affirm it's a joke]  **Riley ** 54:43 Yeah, exactly. I think about taking the ego out of it. Or I'm like...Yeah, revisiting the...From a promoter aspect, the thing that I really hate to see from promoters, and the thing that we were able to kind of try our best to circumvent as a collective, was this, you know, we don't want it to be about like who it is that's doing the thing, you know? And for a long time, we try really hard to make the face behind who Pansy Collective was anonymous, for safety reasons, because I don't know, I've named this a little bit already, but at the time in 2016 and 17 when we started organizing together, the block was really hot. And white supremacists were told to start keeping an eye on Asheville. And so there was a lot of attention on what we were doing. So, we tried to stay anonymous, partially for safety reasons, but partially because it felt less like...yeah, like a cool kid club, ego stroked. You know, this is me doing this. And instead it's like, "No, this is, this is a collective and this is this collective is you, and it's me, and it's everyone, and it doesn't matter who it is, because it's about the thing. It's not about who's booking it. I think about that approach from a promoter standpoint as a way to circumvent the "cool kid shit" that makes spaces feel really unwelcoming. Because if you're not in it then you're not welcome. And it's like, well, yeah, if it's nothing to be in then we're all here together. And we're all on the same level. **Margaret ** 56:34 No, that's interesting. So what brought you to move away from that? **Riley ** 56:36 Um, I don't think that...Well, I got less scared of...I got less..After getting doxxed, I got less scared, I guess, because it's...You know, it's just like, "Oh, y'all aren't gonna fucking bust a grape. Like what?" You know, and like this the...our biggest fear happened. And then we... **Margaret ** 57:04 And then nothing happened.  **Riley ** 57:05 And then we took a concealed carry class together. I mean, I don't know. Can I say that? Can I name that we did that? **Margaret ** 57:11 I'm out about…I've talked about how after getting doxxed, I got my concealed carry. Yeah. **Riley ** 57:15 Yeah. And so like, I mean, I was with Margaret on that. I mean, it was probably like 20 or 30 of us, and big props to the person that helped organize getting us all together for that. But yeah, I mean, we really responded like, alright, like, if y'all wanna fuck with us, we're gonna up our defense and keep rolling, and we did and it's fine. And so I got less scared because I'm like, "They don't want any smoke with us." Like, what, you know, blast our dead names. Do whatever. I don't give a shit. We're really not...We've really been putting up with this shit for our whole lives. So it's not that big of a deal. **Margaret ** 57:59 Like when they're like, "Oh, we're gonna tell your parents that you're a queer anarchists." And I'm like, "Oh, they know." **Riley ** 58:05 They know. They already hate me for it. Don't worry. **Margaret ** 58:10 That's either happened in a good way or bad way already for everyone. **Riley ** 58:16 Yeah, no, exactly. It's like I'm sorry that you lost your job for being a Nazi--No, I'm not--but it doesn't really work, like what you're gonna tell my leftist coffee shop job that I'm part of antifa? That got me a raise actually. **Margaret ** 58:30 Yeah, and even like, you know, one of the people who was doxxed who worked at a coffee shop didn't even have a good relationship with the owners of the coffee shop, and the coffee shop was like, "What? That sucks fuck them." You know? Like no one's like mad. Yeah, it's not samie-samie. They think it samie-samie, but they live in a weird bubble where antifa is bad and everyone is aware that Nazis are bad.  **Riley ** 58:55 Everyone knows that Nazis are bad. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that is very well said. So I mean, I still feel..like you know, I still feel like it's important that at whatever event I'm really impressed by organizers, not even just at an event in the streets too, you know. I mean, it's very off putting, and you can tell very quickly if somebody is--my partner calls it "All up in the videos dancin."  **Margaret ** 59:27 Like people who are clout chasing? **Riley ** 59:29 Yeah. Are you here to, you know, are you here to make a difference? Or are you here to be seen as a good person? You know, and that doesn't run as deep at a party because it's like we're all here to do something. It doesn't matter. But yeah, playing a role, whether it's running sound, doing security, handing some artists some money, working behind the table, whatever. Taking the ego out of it makes the event more accessible for everyone, including you. **Margaret ** 1:00:03 Yeah. No, that makes sense to me. **Riley ** 1:00:06 I mean that for artists too. Like, I don't want to book people who are more about themselves than about the community they're playing with. **Margaret ** 1:00:16 Yeah, totally. Because then it's like, I want to celebrate people within my community doing something amazing. But not in this way that makes me think that they're amazing and I'm not, right? When we put people on stages--I mean, obviously, sometimes stages are useful for literal accessibility, actually, so that everyone can see and things like that--but when we elevate people metaphorically, like, this is what I like about punk, the thing that really got me about punk and why I started liking the music more was the sense of like, someone from our crowd has emerged and shown and been, you know, and it could be about their name, it can be about the thing that they've done, and then they come back into the crowd, and then they are of us, and they're coming from us. And I really like that because then we can celebrate what makes us each individual and exceptional, but not in a way that says that these people are better than us, you know? **Riley ** 1:01:16 Yeah, definitely. And I mean, that's why I also never want it to get any bigger than it is, right, right? You know, I love when punk projects keep it to a certain size, you know, I don't want to be working with large venues, I don't want to be working with tens of thousands of dollars. I don't want to be working with green rooms. And yeah, there's just...I am of a particular...I don't even know what it is. I just want to do all that, you know? I feel more comfortable in somebody's hot basement or in a shitty dive bar or under a bridge, I guess? **Margaret ** 1:02:00 No, it makes sense. I think of like...I think of it as like, are there ways where if we get...because I think Chumbawamba rules, right? They did their sell out thing, they got a ton of money, they financed all of these projects, and it was always a compromise. And it like, wasn't an easy thing, right? And then they like blew their, you know, celebrity and like went back to doing DIY shit. And like, that's fucking great. And like, so I think that like...I think we sort of need both. I actually do think we need the stadium stuff. Because if the stadium stuff is also like, financing us? But it's not building the DIY culture. It's kind of like the tech bro who gives tons of money, rules and is great and is amazing, and it is a sacrifice that someone is making to spend all their time working if they are capable of producing...like someone who's capable of getting a lot of money by working I actually think it's like a really good idea for them to do that so they get a bunch of money and give it to things you know? **Riley ** 1:02:00 Yeah. I'm not mad at that at all.  **Margaret ** 1:02:02 Yeah. I think it's funny. I think Chumbawamba would have...like I think people would have been so much less mad at them if it had happened now instead of...or maybe I just say this because now I get paid to podcast? [laughing] I don't know, maybe I have a bias here... **Riley ** 1:03:21 Maybe you get knocked down, but then you get back up again. Maybe it's that. **Margaret ** 1:03:24 I know. Never gonna keep me down. Well, okay, so is there any like standout question that I didn't ask you that I probably should have or do you have any like final words or? **Riley ** 1:03:40 No, I...Let me think about that for a second. I don't know. I think I just want people to get out there and do it. Yeah, start that project. Put yourself out there. Share it with us. Come through Asheville. We'll book you.  **Margaret ** 1:04:05 Hell yeah. Yeah, the secret is to really begin. Do the thing that you want to do. That's what's so great about DIY is that it actually doesn't matter if it sucks. Like, just do it. And then if you don't like it, do it better next time. And if you do like it, and no one else likes it, just keep doing it. Fuck it. Whatever. Eventually the people who think what you're doing is cool will show up. I never thought there would be a goth night at an anarchist bookfair but I've been in a lot of goth bands and finally I got to play an anarchist bookfair so it all works out. Okay, well how can people either find you or your projects? **Riley ** 1:04:44 Y'all can check out Pansy Collective on Instagram. It's Pansy.Collective. Um, that's kind of it. Thank you, Margaret. **Margaret ** 1:04:52 Yeah, thank you so much. **Margaret ** 1:05:00 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, you should go out and start a band or start booking benefits or go to an event and make friends with people or don't make friends with people or don't be a cool kid at the thing if you're already in the in-crowd. Or, you can financially support us because we don't pay--at the moment we don't pay the hosts which is fine--but we do pay the transcriptionist and the audio editor because they're doing the like completely thankless work. And so, thanks, by the way, both the transcriptionist and audio editor who have to hear me say this. You can support us by supporting us on Patreon. It's patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. We send out a zine every month to our backers at $10 or more. We have another podcast called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness where we do a free audio version and an interview with the person who has recorded the zine or who wrote the zine...Put the verbs in the right order on your own time. And in particular, we would like to thank Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, anonymous--that's a good choice--Funder, Jans, Oxalice, Janice & O'dell, Paige, Aly, Paparouna, Milicia, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the dog. Thank you Hoss the dog and everyone be as well as you can and we'll talk to you soon. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by author and activist, Michael Novick. They talk about just how horrible fascism really is. Thankfully, there's a simple solution, antifascism. Michael talks about their work with Anti-Racist Action Network, the Turning The Tide newspaper, and his newest book with Oso Blanco, The Blue Agave Revolution. Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Guest Info Michael (he/they) and The Blue Agave Revolution can be found at www.antiracist.org If you want to take over the Turning The Tide newspaper, find Michael at antiracistaction_ la@yahoo.com Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Michael Novick on Antifascism Inmn 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. This week we are talking about something that is very scary and, in terms of things we think about being prepared for, something that is far more likely to impact our lives than say, a zombie apocalypse. Or I mean, we're already being impacted by this. It is actively killing us. But, if I had to choose between preparing for this and preparing for living in a bunker for 10 years, I would choose this. Oh, golly, I really hope preparing for this doesn't involve living in a bunker for 10 years, though. But the monster of this week is fascism. However, there's a really great solution to fascism...antifascism. And we have a guest today who has spent a lot of their life thinking about and participating in antifascism. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And so here's a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [Singing the words like a cheesy melody] Inmn 02:00 And we're back. And I have with me today writer and organizer Michael Novick, co founder of the John Brown Anti Klan Committee, People Against Racist Terror, Anti-racist Action Network, the TORCH Antifa network and White People For Black Lives. Michael, would you like to introduce yourself with your name, pronouns and kind of...I guess like your history in anti-racist, antifascist struggles and a little bit about what you want to tell us about today? Michael 02:34 Sure. Thanks, Inmn. So yeah, Michael Novick. Pronouns he or they. I've been doing anti-racist and antifascist organizing and educating and work for many many decades at this point. I'm in my 70s. I got involved in political activism in kind of anti-war, civil rights, student rights work in the 60s. I was an SDS at Brooklyn College. And I've been doing that work from an anti white supremacist, anticapitalist, anti-imperialist perspective. And I think that particularly trying to understand fascism in the US context, you have to look at questions of settler colonialism. And, you know, people sometimes use the term racial capitalism. I think that land theft, genocide, enslavement of people of African descent, especially is central to understanding the social formation of this country. I was struck by the name of the podcast in terms of "live like the world is ending," because for a long time, I had an analysis that said that the fear of the end of the world had to do with the projection of the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie feels that its rule is coming to an end and therefore thinks the world is coming to an end, but the world will get on fire without the bourgeoisie and the rulers and the imperialists. Except that because of the lease on life that this empire has gotten repeatedly by the setbacks caused by white and male supremacy and the way it undermines people's movements, the bourgeoisie is actually in a position to bring the world to an end. I think that's what we're facing is a global crisis of the Earth's system based on imperialism, based on settler colonialism, and exploitation of the Earth itself. And so I think it's not just preparing for individual survival in those circumstances. We have to think about really how we can put an end to a system that's destroying the basis for life on the planet. And so I think that those are critical understandings. And the turn towards fascism that we're seeing across the...you know, Anti-Racist Action's analysis has always been that fascism is built from above and below and that there are forces within society. I think particularly because settler colonialism is a mass base for fascism in this country, as well as an elite preference for it under the kind of circumstances that we're looking at, in which, you know, as I said the basis for life itself has been damaged by imperialism, capitalism, and its manifestations. And so the need for extreme repressive measures, and for genocidal approaches, and exterminationist approaches are at hand. So, I think that, again, I think that the question of preparation is preparation for those kinds of circumstances. I think we're living in a kind of low intensity civil war situation already, in which you see the use of violence by the State, obviously, but also by non state forces that people have to deal with. So I think that that's the overall approach that I think we need to think about. And that comes out of, as I said, decades of doing work. I think that there are a few key things that we have to understand about this system, which is that it's not just issues that we face, but there is an enemy, there is a system that is trying to propagate and sustain itself that is inimical to life and inimical to freedom. And that if we want to protect our lives and the lives of other species and if we want to protect people's freedom going forward, we have to recognize that there's an irreconcilable contradiction between those things and between the system that we live in. So that's kind of a sobering perspective. But, I think it's an important one. Inmn 06:20 Yeah, yeah, no, it is. And it's funny, something that you said, kind of made a gear turn in my head. So, you know, normally, yeah, we do talk about in preparing to live like the world is dying, we do usually come at it from this context of that being a bad thing that we need to prepare for bad things to happen. But, the way you were talking about like fascism and empire and stuff, I suddenly thought, "Wait, maybe we should live like that world is dying and like there is something better ahead." Because, you know, we do like to approach the show from...I feel like we like to talk about the bad things that are happening and could happen but also the hopefulness and like the brighter futures that we can imagine. Michael 07:15 I think that's right. And I think it's really important to have both of those understandings. I think that, you know, people do not actually get well organized out of despair. I think they do, you know, you want to have...You know, there used to be a group called Love and Rage. And you have to have both those aspects. You have to have the rage against the machine and the rage against the system that's destroying people, but you have to have the love, you have to have that sense of solidarity and the idea of a culture of not just resistance but a culture of liberation and a culture of solidarity. And I think that, you know, there's a dialectic between the power of the State and the power of these oppressive forces and the power of the people and to the extent that the people can exert their power and to the extent that we can free ourselves from the, you know, the chains of mental slavery is...[Sings a sort of tune] you hear in reggae, you know, that actually weakens the power of the State and the power of the corporations. And they [the State] understand that sometimes better than we do. So there is, you know, there's some lessons I feel like I've learned and one of them is that every time there is a liberatory movement based out of people's experiences and the contradictions that are experienced in their lives, whether it's the gay liberation movement, women's liberation movement, or Black liberation and freedom struggle, there's always an attempt by the rulers to take that over and to reintegrate it into, you know, bourgeois ways of thinking. And, you know, people talk about hegemony and the idea that ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling class, and I think that, you know, I've seen it happen over and over again with different movements. And so, you know, I was involved with the Bay Area gay liberation in the 80s and, you know, one of the things that happened there is that you saw very quickly a different language coming up and different issues coming up. And so suddenly the question of gays in the military was put forward, or we have to be concerned about the fact that gay people have to hide when they're in the military, and the question of normalizing gay relationships in the contract form of marriage came forward. And those were basically efforts to circumscribe and contain the struggle for gay liberation and to break down gender binaries and stuff within the confines of bourgeois conceptions of rights and bourgeois integration into militarism and contractual economic relationships. And you saw that over and over again in terms of the Women's Liberation Movement, and then all of a sudden you've got bourgeois feminism and white white feminism. And I think that that's really important to understand because it means that there's a struggle inside every movement to grasp the contradiction that...and to maintain a kind of self determined analysis and strategy for how that movement is going to carry itself forward in opposition to what the rulers of this society--who rely heavily on, as I say, white supremacy, male supremacy, settler colonialism, and its manifestations--to try to contain and suppress insurrectionary...And you see the same thing within the preparedness movement. There's the dominant politics of the preparedness movement I think that I've seen over many years are actually white supremacist. They're maintaining the homestead of settler colonial land theft. So you have to understand that that's a contradiction in that movement that has to be faced and overcome and struggled with. I think having an understanding is critical to really trying to chart a path forward that will kind of break...create wedge issues on our side of the of the ledger, so to speak, and begin to break people away from identification with the Empire, identification with whiteness, identification with privilege. And, you know, one of the issues I've had over a long time, for example, what I struggle for is people's understanding about the question of privilege. You know, I come out of the...as I said, there were struggles in the 60s and early 70s about what we called white skin privilege. And I think that it's critical to understand that privilege functions throughout the system all the time. It's not a burden of guilt, it's a mechanism of social control. And anything you have as privilege can be taken away. Privilege is a mechanism of actually obtaining consent and adherence to...You know, parents use privileges with their kids to try to get their kids to do what they want. Teachers use privilege with students to get the students to do what they want, Prison guards use privileges with prisoners to get the prisoners to follow the rules and stay incarcerated. And so, you know, that's a mechanism of Imperial domination, of settler colonialism, and certainly within that context. So, it's not an illness or a...It's not something to be guilty about. It's something to contend with and deal with and understand that if there are things you have as privileges that you think are used by right or by merit, you're deluding yourself and you can't actually function facing reality. So when you understand that they are privileges, you understand that they're there to obtain your consent and your adherence, and your compliance, your complicity, your complacency, and then you have to actually resist those privileges or turn those privileges into weapons that you can use to actually weaken the powers that be. And I think that that approach is important to understand that, you know...I used to do a lot of work with people in the Philippines struggle, and they talked about the fact that, you know, on some of the...outside the US Army bases that were imposed in the Philippines, there was a rank order of privilege, like where people could dig in the garbage dumps of the US military to get better quality stuff that was being thrown out by the military. And so that kind of hierarchy and sense of organizing people by by hierarchy, by privilege, is how the system functions at every level. In the workplace they find different privileges that people have to try to divide workers from each other and get people to struggle for privilege as opposed to actually struggle for solidarity and resistance and a different world. And I think that having that understanding begins to free people. Steven Biko was the leader of the Black Consciousness Movement in South Africa that really helped propel it moving forward. One of the things he said is that, "The greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the minds of the oppressed." And, you know, I think to the extent that we can start to free our minds of these structures, we can actually begin to weaken the oppressor and strengthen the struggling and creative powers and energies of people to really build a different world. Inmn 14:00 Yeah, yeah. Sorry, this is gonna seem like a silly question because it feels very basic. But, I love to kind of break things down into their base levels. But, what is fascism? Michael 14:11 Yeah, good question. I think that an important analysis of fascism that I came across is from Cesare Amè. And what he said is that, "Fascism is the application in the metropole (of the colonizing power) of the methods of rule that have been used in the colonies." I think that that has a critical understanding because, as I said, the US is a separate colonial system, so elements of fascism have always been present within the political, economic, and social structure of the United States because they're internally colonized people and stolen land. So, if you're looking at elements of fascism, there's hyper masculinity, there's hyper nationalism, there's obviously slave labor, there's incorporation of a mass base into kind of a visceral identification with a leader. And all of those things really have manifest themselves in US history before we used the term, "fascism." And so, the US is based on land theft, on genocide, on exterminationist policies towards the indigenous people, the enslavement of African people, and also on the incorporation of a mass base based on settler colonialism and the offering of privileges to a sector of the population to say, "Okay, you know, we're going to participate along with the rulers in this system." And so I think that it's important to get that understanding because people often think that fascism is an aberration or it's a particularly extreme form of dictatorial rule or something like that. But I think that it's really a way of trying to reorganize people's personalities around their role within an empire and within, you know, it's trying to control the way people think, and control the way people see themselves in relation to other people. And so, you know, that's why I think that idea that fascism is built from above and below is important because we do see fascist elements that have some contradictions with the state. And we've seen, for example, in January 6th. You know, the government has gone after certain of these elements because they have moved too quickly. Or, the same way that there were premature antifascists during the World War II period and they went after the people in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Sometimes there are sort of premature proto-fascist in this society that have contradictions with the State, and they're operating somewhat independently. So, you know, I think that it's important to understand that and that there are elements in the State and within the different sections of the State that have their own operative plan. So, you know, when you look at the question of police abuse and police brutality, there's one approach to it that certain elements in the State take, which is about command and control. They want to make sure that they control the police forces and that individual officers are not acting independently but are carrying out cohesive state strategies. At the same time, there are elements within law enforcement that are trying to organize individual cops for organized white supremacy. And, it's the same thing in the military. And so there are contradictions there that we have to be aware of, but at the same time, they're operating within a framework of settler colonialism, of organized white supremacy, So, one of the things that's come up recently, for example, is this idea that there...how can there be non-white white supremacists? And, you know, I think it has to do with the fact that it's not just your identity, or your racial identity that's there but who do you...What's your identification? Are you identifying with the Empire? Are you identifying with the bourgeois? Are you identifying with the settler colonial project that has shaped, really, the whole globe over the course of half a millennium? Or, are you identifying with the indigenous? Are you identifying with the struggling people? And it's less a...It's not a question of your particular skin color but which side of the line are you on? Inmn 18:12 How does attempts by the State or by society to kind of like assimilate various oppressed people into the Empire? Like, how does that kind of factor factor into this? Michael 18:24 Well, if you look at the history of, let's say, Central America is one case in point, that there were fascist forces in Central America and their base was not really within their own society. Their base was within the Empire. And so, you had death squads operating, you had mercenaries operating, you had contras [counter revolutionaries] operating in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, carrying out genocidal policies, in many cases, against indigenous people and people of African descent within their own societies. And so, you know, that's not exactly fascism in the same way, but it certainly is aspects of police state and death squad activity that has to be resisted. So I think that, you know, when you see Enrique Tarrio and some of these people that are, quote unquote, "Hispanic," operating as proto-fascists with the Proud Boys or these other formations in the United States that's a manifestation of the same thing, that there are people who have identified themselves with a system of white supremacy and a system of domination, a system of exploitation, and they're trying to make their own individual piece with it and they have collective mechanisms that reinforce that. And they see...So, you know, I think that the fascism has presented itself at times as a decolonizing element in Latin America and Asia and other places where...For example, when the Japanese Empire was trying to strengthen itself and formed an alliance with Italian fascism and German Nazism, they also presented themselves in Asia as liberators of Asia from European colonialism. And, you know, then they carried out atrocities of their own in China, Indochina, and Korea. So, I think that nobody is exempt from this. It's not a genetic factor. It is what ideology...What's the organizing principle that people are operating under to form their society and generate their power? If that's militaristic, if it's hierarchical, if it's exploitative, then regardless of what the skin tone of somebody carrying that out is, it can be fascistic in its nature. Inmn 20:44 Yeah, I like something that you said earlier, which I think is an interesting frame. So, I feel like people in the United States, you might hear people like, talk about the rise of fascism, or the like, emergence of fascism, as if it's this new thing, you know? And I like how you read it, in the formation of the United States as a nationalistic identity with this idea that fascism has always been here, fascism has always been a part of the settler colonial project of the United States. Michael 21:27 Well, I was gonna follow up that is if you look at the countries in which fascism came to power in Europe, they were mainly countries where they felt they were not adequate empires in their own right. In other words, Spain, even Portugal, France, England, you know, had empires. Germany came late to imperialism. And even to the formation of a German state, the German bourgeoisie was not able to really unify all the Germans into a single nation. Same thing with Italy. Italy was, you know, a bunch of kind of mini states and city states and came late to the formation of a national sense of Italy. And so I think that fascism presented itself as a overarching ideology that could galvanize a nation and launch it into an imperial mode where it could compete with other empires. So the US context is a little different because, as I say, from the very beginning it had that element of settler colonialism and cross-class alliance in which not only the bourgeoisie but even working people could be induced to participate in that project of land theft and genocide. There's a famous book called "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev who talked about, you know, how white supremacy affected Irish workers. And what he didn't really look at was that there was some Irish involved right from the very beginning and trying to overturn the land relationships between settlers. They wanted, you know, there was a land theft and a land hunger that they had, and so, for example, even before the question of relation between Irish workers and Black workers came up, there were Irish in the United States that wanted to overturn the agreements that had been reached in Pennsylvania between the Quakers and the indigenous people in Pennsylvania. The Irish wanted land and they wanted to participate in taking that land from the native people. And then that had repercussions back in Ireland itself because that the US Empire and those land thefts then affected the consciousness of the Irish within Ireland itself and weaken the Irish struggle for independence from British colonialism because there was a safety valve of the US Empire. And so I think that it's critical to look at these things because it gives us a sense of what is at stake at different times and what's at issue. And I think that looking at the question of decolonization, looking at the question of solidarity and unity, is the flip sides to this. If we only look at the power of the bourgeois, if we look at the power of the fascists, it can be intimidating or overwhelming or depressing. And I think that that's the...You know, when you talk about preparedness and some of these things, you're talking about what are the generative powers of the people themselves because Imperialism and Capitalism are based on a kind of parasitical relationship. They're extracting wealth from the Earth itself and from the labor of people and turning it into a power over the Earth and over the people. And I think that understanding that actually all that wealth that the system has, all the power that the system has is actually coming out of the people who are oppressed and exploited in the land gives us a sense of what our own powers are and what our own capacity to be creative and generative are. To the extent we exercise those, it weakens them. And I think that that's a critical understanding. Inmn 25:16 Yeah. Are there ways that fascism is currently manifesting that feel different from say, I don't know, like 40 years ago? Michael 25:29 Well, I think the whole phenomenon of social media and the way in which they very effectively organized these Neofascist forces through the gaming...hypermasculine gaming stuff and, you know, I think...We talked a little bit about the..I think the reason that people approached me to do this podcast had to do with my essay in "¡No Pasarán!: Antifascist Dispatches from a World in Crisis." And so that's a piece where I talked about, you know, some of this history of different struggles and how they...what lessons to extract from them. But the other book I've been working on and put out recently, is called "The Blue Agave Revolution: Poetry of the Blind Rebel." This was a book...I was approached by Oso Blanco, an indigenous political prisoner here in the United States who was involved with actually robbing banks to support the Zapatistas in Mexico, and he was getting "Turning the Tide," the newspaper I've been working on for many years that we send free to prisoners, and he approached me. He wanted to work on a book and he said he wanted me to work on the book with him. And he had..."The Poetry of the Blind Rebel" is a story arc and poetry arc of his work that is a story about the Mexican Revolution of the early 20th century, the 1910s-1920. It's kind of magical realism. But, he asked me to write some fiction. And so I wrote kind of a short story cycle of a three way fight between vampires, zombies, and humans. And the vampires are basically--I mean, it's Dracula--but, you know, there's one point where there's a woman who has been trying to grapple with this and she forms a cross with two wooden tent stakes and he kind of laughs and says, "Oh, you bought that old wive's tale. We totally integrated into the church and into the State," you know. Basically, the vampires represent the bourgeoisie because they [the bourgeoisie] are vampiric and parasitic and they have powers. The zombies in this story are a group of incels that have captured a vampire and they think that they can create a potion from vampire blood that will give them power over women and make them...you know...And instead, they turn themselves into zombies. And so then there's a sort of three way fight between the bourgeoisie on the one hand, these vampires, the fascists from below, these sort of incel zombies that have to eat brains, and then the humans who are trying to deal with both of them. And I think that that's an important understanding that, you know, there are contradictions between the vampires and zombies but they're both our enemy. And so, I think that that's an approach that we have to understand that they're....You know, it's not a simple linear equation that's going on. There's a lot of things happening. I think that the fascists from below have contradictions with the fascists above, and we can take advantage of that. And then...but, we have to understand that their, you know, it's not...I think there are weaknesses...[Trails off] Let me go back to this. You know, historically, people have talked about antifascism and anti-imperialism, and there's been an element in both of those of class collaboration. A lot of people in the anti-imperialist movement think, "Oh, well, there's a sort of a national bourgeoisie that also doesn't like the Empire and wants to exert itself. And we have to ally with them. And a lot of people in antifascist movements have thought, "Oh, well, there's, you know, bourgeois Democrats who also hate fascism," and I think that those have been weaknesses historically. And also the contradiction between people who concentrate mostly antifascism, the people who concentrate mostly on anti-imperialism has weakened people's movements. I think having a kind of overarching understanding that fascism is rooted in Empire, particularly in settler colonialism, and that there isn't a contradiction. We have to find the forces of popular resistance that will overturn both fascism and imperialism...and capitalism. And, that we have to, you know, have a self determined struggle for decolonization and recognize people's self determination in their own struggles and their own capacity to live in a different way and to begin to create, you know, the solidarity forever, we say, you know, "Build a new world from the ashes of the old." And, I think that in terms of my own work, I've tried to--although, you might think I'm aging out at this point, but I've been involved at every point that there's an upsurge in struggle. I've tried to participate in that as part of Occupy LA. And more recently, I've been involved with some of the dual power organizing that's going on. And I don't know how much your people are familiar with that, but it is a conception related to, let's say, Cooperation Jackson, in Mississippi, where they're trying to figure out ways of organizing themselves economically and also resisting the power of the State. And so I was at the Dual Power Gathering that took place in Indiana last summer and there's one on the West Coast that's coming up in the Portland area. Inmn 31:06 Yeah, could you explain what--for our listeners--what is dual power? Michael 31:11 Yeah, so dual power is the concept that we have a power and we can exercise that power, and within the framework of this contemporary society, which is so destructive, we can begin to generate and exercise that power, and that there's, as I said, a kind of dialectic between the power of the people and the power of the State, and the corporations, and the power of the fascist, and that the different prefigurative elements of the kind of society we want to live in in the future can be created now. And, that as we exercise that power, it weakens the power of the State. It weakens the power of the bourgeoisie and the power of the imperialists. I went to that Dual Power Gathering in Indiana--I mean, it's not my bio region, but I did used to live in Chicago--and I felt some affinities with it. You know, they were...To talk about the idea of, you know, what's the relationship between dual power and our three-way fight, with a different conception with what the three-way fight is, that we are having to contend with two different enemies, you know, these fascists from below and the fascist from above, the State, and corporate power, and then also right-wing elements. And I think that in terms of both of those, we have to understand what are the powers that we have to organize ourselves to, as they say, to apply the generative and regenerative powers to...So that people have a sense of what they're fighting for. It's not just anti-this and anti-that. So for example, the newspaper I've worked in for many years, "Turning the Tide," originally, we called it the "Journal of Anti-Racist Action," or "Anti-Racist Action Edcuation & Research," and then we changed the subtitle a few years ago to, "The Journal of Intercommunal Solidarity," in the sense that you have to say what you're fighting for? What are we trying to build? What are we trying to create? What are we creating? And how does that give us the capacity to continue to resist and continue to shape the future, not just react always to what they're doing but actually have a proactive, generative stance. And so, you know, people's creative cultural expressions, people's capacity to do permaculture in urban environments or many other things like that, that say, that we want to restore the biological diversity, you know. We want to restore the capacity of the soil. We want to restore the clarity of the water and the air in the process of struggling for our own liberation. And that, you know, those are things that can happen and must happen now. We can't wait for some revolution that will happen in the future in which you know, we'll create a better world. We have to start in the context and the interstices of the system in the place that people are being pulverized. And so, you know, in Los Angeles, people are involved in various kinds of mutual aid work and working with the homeless, working with people being evicted to take over homes and restore them. And I think all those manifestations, that's the question of dual power there. We're looking at the incapacity of the people ruling this society to actually meet basic human needs and we're trying to figure out how to meet them. So, I think that's where it coincides with this question of preparedness is that I think that is a sense that people have to rely on their own resources, their own energies, and understanding that there's a contradiction between the system, the way it functions, and its implications and impact on us. And it's incapacity, its powerlessness, to really protect people from the kinds of calamities it's creating, whether it's flooding, or firestorms, or, you know, all the other manifestations of this global crisis of the Earth's system that is growing out of Capitalism. We have to deal with that now. We can't wait, you know, till sometime in the future when we have, you know, "power," quote unquote, you know? We have the power to start to deal with it. Inmn 35:17 Yeah, and, I feel like there have been different ways that people have tried to do exactly that in the past. And I don't know, like, I'm thinking of a lot of the stuff that the Black Panthers were doing, like creating communities that they...like, declaring that they had power and that they had the power to build the communities that they wanted and to preserve those communities. And then they faced an incredible amount of repression, like, as much for arming themselves as for giving kids lunch and breakfast. And I'm wondering, in what ways does the State try to like...or in what ways has the State tried to destabilize dual power movements in the past? And what can we kind of expect them to do now? Or what are they doing now? Does that make sense? Michael 36:35 Yeah, I think there's always a two-pronged approach by the state. And, sometimes it's referred to as, "The carrot and the stick." You know, it's co-optation ad coercion. And so they always attempt both to control as they modify people's thinking and try to create bourgeois alternatives to liberatory thinking and liberatory organizing. And then simultaneously, they have the repressive aspects, the criminalization of those efforts. And so in relation to the Black Panther Party, for example, they were simultaneously pushing what they called Black Capitalism, and saying, "Oh, yes, you know, we'll give you, you know, we'll find the sector of Black community that can integrate into the system." And then, along with that, they were carrying out COINTELPRO, which was a war strategy of creating contradictions inside Black Liberation organizations, setting one against the other, trying to execute and/or incarcerate people who were not willing to compromise their principles. So I think we have to be aware that you're seeing the same thing go on around policing issues. You know, they constantly want to put forward different reforms and accountability measures and ways that people can participate in civilian oversight mechanisms that really don't do anything. And at the same time, they're, you know, attacking people who are doing Copwatch or groups like the Stop LAPD Spying Network, which has exposed a lot of stuff about this constantly being targeted. So, I think that those, that the two-pronged approach by the State is something we have to be very aware of. It's not only coercion and criminalization and repression, but it's also co-optation and, you know, giving people individual solutions and mechanisms that are...they call it the nonprofit industrial complex, you know, this whole mechanism of structures that are set up to get people involved in grant writing and looking to philanthropists to somehow support them in their work. And I think that trying..You know, one of the things the Black Panther Party did was it had its own self generated funding by going to the base community they were trying to organize in, talking to small shopkeepers, and talking to churches, and trying to integrate that into these Liberatory efforts. So, I think that, you know, looking at that model, when I started doing, for example, People Against Racist Terror, there were a lot of small anti-racist groups around the country and a lot of them ended up going the route of looking for grants and looking for nonprofit organizations that they could fold themselves into, and I think that that kind of denatured them. They became, you know...As opposed to being grassroots, they became board and staff organizations, and individuals would create careers out of it. And I think that that mechanism of transforming popular movements into nonprofit organizations or nongovernmental organizations that accommodate themselves to existing power structures, existing economic realities, is one of the things that we need to try to avoid happening in this current period. Inmn 40:18 That makes that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it's, it's funny, because I feel like I'm seeing a lot of groups involved in mutual aid, who are, I think, taking that lesson of the nonprofit industrial complex but are also trying to access larger swaths of money than the communities that they're part of can provide, like this model of, it's important to involve your community base in those things and to generate those things ourselves, but there is this problem sometimes of like, you're passing the hat and the same 20 people are kicking into the bail fund. And I don't know, I think maybe this is just me being hopeful, but I'm seeing a lot of mutual aid groups kind of dip into grant writing or dip into utilizing nonprofit statuses more so than structures in order to access funding and things like that. But what I'm seeing is people coming at it from like, hopefully, what is a different perspective of taking these lessons of the past and being like, "Well, we don't want to become some horrifying, large nonprofit, but we do want the State to give us 10 grand so that we can build infrastructure. Like I guess my question is, are there ways to responsibly interact with that? Or is this a trap? Michael 41:57 I guess I'd have hear more details. I think it's imperative that it has to come from below and from the grassroots. I think that, you know, I've been involved with the opposite, for example, Pacifica Radio, and Pacifica is listener sponsored radio and is a constant struggle about how much can we accept cooperation of broadcasting funding. They cut us off some years ago and we're trying to get it back Or, there's struggles about trying to get some underwriting. It depends who you're accountable to for the money that you're getting. Are you accountable primarily to the funder? Are you accountable primarily to the people who are using that money and the people who are self organizing for community power and community sustainability, and, you know, some of the things we're talking about of self determined strategies. And, you know, I do think that what happened to a lot of the 60s movements is that there was an ebb in the mass movement. And then people made their separate peace. People were like flotsam and jetsam as the tide of people's power movements were negatively impacted because of white supremacy, male supremacy, COINTELPRO, and an inadequate response to deal with it. Then, you know, people ended up in labor unions where they were doing some good work, but basically they became part of a labor bureaucracy where they ended up in government social services/ They were doing some good work, but they became part of that mechanism. So, I think the critical thing is trying to keep control of what's going on in the hands of the people who are actually organizing themselves and their communities. Inmn 43:55 Yeah. No, that makes sense. What are strategies that we should be embracing for countering this current current escalation in fascist tendencies? Michael 44:10 Well, you know, I've done a lot of work over the years, and as I say, "Turning the Tide" is a newspaper, we send a couple of thousand copies almost every issue into the prisons and we're in touch with a lot of stuff that's going on in the prisons. And I think that that's a critical place to look for some understanding about how to deal with this because we do see under what are essentially very naked fascist conditions of domination inside the prisons, which are very hierarchical. There's a lot of negative activity within the prisons themselves. There's the power of the guards and the wardens in the system and yet you find struggles going on against racism, against sexism, for solidarity against the solitary confinement of people who have been victims of torture are organizing themselves. And I think that understanding of that capacity and looking at that, those are some of the leading struggles in the United States. There have been hunger strikes, there have been labor strikes, the Alabama Prisoners Movement [Free Alabama Movement] here in California and elsewhere. And I think that sense that people under the most severe repression are actually capable of making human connections among themselves and beginning to actually, in a self critical way, look at how they incorporated toxic masculinity and racism into their own approach to reality, and by beginning to purge themselves of those things, they can begin to create multiracial solidarity among all prisoners to actually resist the conditions of incarceration and resist enslavement. So I think that that's very important to look at. I think that here in Los Angeles, there are, as they say, organizations like LACAN, that are working among homeless people and with homeless people to organize themselves to have street watches. They have a community garden on the roof of a building. They have cultural expression. They have theatrical groups...coral...You know, it's like all those things connect people's love and rage, as I say, people's ability to generate creative cultural expression and to use that to strengthen their solidarity and their unity and their ability to resist the coercive power of the State or the police sweeps or to expose what's going on and begin to put out a challenge to the way that society is organized. So I think that those are some critical things. I think that having the capacity to defend ourselves, both physically and also legally is very very important. I think that if you look at stuff like the Stop Cop City struggle that the escalation of repression and the use of charges of terrorism on people that are obviously not terrorists is indicates that the State sees this as a very, very serious threat and is trying to eradicate it and is trying to intimidate people. And I think to the extent that we can turn that around and use it to say to people, you know, "Is this the kind of State you want to live in? Is this the kind of society you want to have?" is a way to begin to change minds and hearts of people who have been going along with the system. I lived through a whole period where we freed many many political prisoners. We freed Bobby. We freed Huey. We freed Angela. And, you know, even the Panther 21 in New York, you know, it's like the jury met for about 30 minutes and acquitted them all because the power of those organized forces affected the consciousness of the jurors. And I think that understanding that we actually have the power to begin to shape not just own consciousness, to ways that struggle with people, to, "Which side are you on?" and to give people a sense that there is a side that they can identify with and become part of, and transform their own lives, and transform society in the process of doing that. So, I think, you know, for example, the stuff around preparedness is vital that, you know, we're living in a world in which there are incredibly destructive wildfires, floods, tornadoes, and it's very clear that the state is incapable of even dealing with it after the fact, let alone preventing it. And so I think that gives us an opening to talk to very wide sectors of the population in cities and in rural areas as well. I think that, you know, for example, Anti-Racist Action Network in its heyday had hundreds of chapters around the country in small towns because young people were, in their own high schools and music scenes, were suddenly faced with this threat of fascism and said, "Hey, we have to get organized." And so I think that, you know, we need to see these things as opportunities to really very massively begin to engage with people and begin to offer an alternative way of thinking about the world that gives some hope and some prospect of dealing not just with the crises and the repression but a way forward for people. Inmn 49:48 Yeah, yeah. And that kind of ties into--I love that you use this phrase. We've had this phrase come up lot with Cindy Milstein, who we've interviewed on the podcast before and who we've published their newest book last year, "Try Anarchism For Life," and they talk a lot about prefigurative organizing and prefigurative spaces. And I think this kind of ties into what you're talking about, but I was wondering if you could kind of give us your take on the importance of building prefigurative spaces? Michael 50:31 Yeah, I think that we have to find ways to bring people together and to give people a sense, as I say, of our own power and our own creative and generative capacity. So I think that that says that whether it's free schools, or it's breakfast for children, or any of the things that the Black Panther Party did and that many other people of color movements did in a certain period are here at our disposal. I know that, for example, there's a crisis in childcare and child rearing that's going on and so organizing people into childcare collectives and people jointly taking responsibility for each other's children and creating trust relationships that make people feel comfortable with that would be one example of that. In food deserts, organizing people to break up some sidewalks and grow some food and I think they're...One of the things that I've come to understand from doing this work for a long time is we live in a kind of fractal or holographic world in which the same contradictions are shot all the way through the system. It's at any level of magnification in fractals. If you look at the coast of Norway, something in the fjords, you know, it's the same pattern is reproduced at every level. And, you know, in a holographic image, any piece of the hologram has the whole hologram in it. So, I think that any area that people want to choose to struggle in, I think as long as they understand that they're struggling against the entirety of the system in that area and that there's an enmity built into that relationship between the system and we see what they're trying to do, I think that's the critical understanding. So if people are engaged in, you know, community gardens, as long as they understand that that's a piece of a larger struggle to create a world in which nature has, has space to reassert itself, and that people can eat different food and better food. And any area that you know, whether it's the struggle over transgender, nonbinary, or anything else, once people see that it's the same system throughout that they're struggling with, it lays a basis for solidarity, for unity, and for a struggle on many fronts simultaneously that says, you know, sort of the "War of the Flea," [A book on guerrilla warfare] the system is vulnerable in a million places because the system is in all those places simultaneously and, you know, they have a lot of money, a lot of power to deal with that, and they're organized in these systems of command and control and artificial intelligence and all the rest of it to keep track of everything, but we're in all those places simultaneously as well because we're everywhere. And trying to coordinate those things, I think, is very important. Inmn 53:51 This is a little bit of a backup that I remembered that I wanted to ask you about it. So, like, we're currently seeing like a pretty horrific and intense wave of legislation against against trans people and against queer people, and nonbinary people. And, yeah, I'm wondering what your take on that is as a kind of indicator, if we have to imagine like fascism as a spectrum of where we could be going, like what is that kind of legislation and repression an indicator of? Michael 54:38 Yeah, you know, I think that obviously fascism always tries to target the people they think are the most vulnerable. And also, as I say, I think they want to create what they see as wedge issues that they can use to divide people and segment people off. And so I think, to the extent that we can reverse that and we can try to unite people around a different conception. You know, one of the things that struck me is that you saw that they sort of had this victory with controlling the courts and overturning Roe v. Wade, for example. And, what that revealed was actually how narrow that really was, the forces that were pushing for that. Because then, you know, Nebraska and Kansas and these various states suddenly had electoral reinforcement of abortion rights happening. And I think the same thing can happen here. I think that there's so many families that they're concerned about their own kids or...and the parental rights. It reveals that these fault lines go through the whole system. That's what I'm trying to say is all of their power is based on repression and exploitation, and to the extent that people begin to see that and how it impacts on them, it opens up the vistas of possibility to say, you know, if you're concerned about your child's right to get the medical assistance they need, why is the State coming in to prevent you from doing that? And what are the interests that are trying to pick this as a threat to the stability of society? Inmn 56:46 And, yeah. Michael 56:48 So, you know, I think that since every crisis is an opportunity, I think the other thing I did want to talk about a little bit was the whole Covid pandemic, you know, going back to the prepper thing. I think you saw, again, you know, a lot of right-wing exploitation of that issue. And I think that the extent that we can get out ahead of that and look at...Okay, for example, in a society like Cuba, which had a completely different relationship to this because they're organized in a different way and, you know, they actually have a public health system and they actually created their own vaccines, not the ones from big pharma here in this country, and begin to get people to think about that and why Cuba is stigmatized by this society? Why are they embargoing Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, all these countries? You know, the connection to a global sense of what are the possibilities in the world? What are the prefigurative formations that are happening inside imperialism by countries that are actually resisting it? And so, if you look at, you know, the medical care system in Cuba, for example, you know, they have...Every neighborhood has a doctor that lives in the neighborhood--and nursing staff and other people--and [the doctor] works door to door with the people in that neighborhood to be concerned about their health and their well being not just, you know, responding to a particular medical crisis, and they have that systematized and they...So in that context, they were able to vaccinate people, not through coercive measures but through trusted people that were part of their community that could reassure them about the fact that they developed the vaccines themselves and that the Cuban pharmaceutical industry came out of their effort to deal with chemical and biological warfare by the United States. The US was like putting in swine fever as a way to destroy pigs that every family in Cuba had their own little pig to raise and, you know, supplement their food. And so they developed animal vaccines first to protect those animals and then they work their way up from there. So I think that that sense of, you know...I had a good friend recently who passed away from complications of diabetes and the Cubans have developed treatments for diabetes and to prevent amputation of limbs and other stuff. And all of that is unavailable to us because of the US imperialist embargo on Cuba and blockade. And giving people a sense that, you know, there actually are people living in the world in much better conditions. The United States is number one in incarceration, number one in many social ills, number one in overdose deaths, and, you know, on and on and on...number one in evictions. And we can begin to, you know, really give a sense to people that this system has nothing to offer them but destruction and that we have the capacity to create something different. Inmn 1:00:13 Yeah. Thanks. I have only to say that...yes. Yes to all of that. We are nearing the end...of the recording, not of the world. [Said as a dry joke] And, yeah, is there any any kind of last things that you want to say before--I'll ask you to plug anything that you want to plug at the end--I mean, that was such a beautiful wrap up, I feel like. But, if there's anything else you want to talk about, that we haven't talked about? Michael 1:00:45 Well, you know, years ago, I was part of a group in Berkeley that took over the California College of Arts and Crafts to create an anti-war poster making facility during the Vietnam War. And out of that group, there was a singing group called the Red Star Singers, and they had a song called "The Power of the People's the Force of Life." And I think we really have to have that sense. It's, you know, it is a dialectic. That's what I think the main thing I want to try to convey is that, you know, to the extent that we can build the people's power, it actually weakens that system. And, you know, just that sense that all the power that they have is actually derived from their exploitation and oppression of people. And that's our power, you know, manifest that against us. And if we take our power back, it actually does weaken them and increases our possibilities of struggling to for a different world. So, I will do the plugs. I, for 35 years, I've been working and I actually wanted to sort of break the story here. I'm looking for a collective that will take over "Turning the Tide." I've been putting it out for a long, long time. Volume 35 # 2 is just about to come out. It's up on antiracist.org. You can reach me at antiracistaction_ la@yahoo.com. But, you know, like I say, I'm 76. I'm currently the interim general manager of KPFK radio in Los Angeles and it's a huge time commitment. And I want I want to see the paper, you know, become, in some way or shape, institutionalized, to continue to meet, you know, send out the 1700-1800 copies to prisoners. And so, if anybody's interested in taking over that project and fulfilling that commitment, I'd love to hear from them. And then, as I say, I have a chapter in "¡No Pasarán!: Antifascist Dispatches from a World in Crisis" edited by Shane Burley from AK Press. And I contributed a lot of material archival stuff and was interviewed extensively for "We Go Where They Go: The Story of Anti-Racist Action" from PM press. Two really, really important books and well worth reading. And then I did, self published and co-authored "The Blue Agave Revolution: The Poetry of the Blind Rebel" with Oso Blanco, Byron Shane Chubbuck. And you can get that again from Anti-Racist Action. So it's PO Box 1055, Culver City, California 90232. And online, just Antiracist.org. Inmn 1:03:27 Wonderful, in "The Blue Agave Revolution," is that Is that where we can find your short story about the three-way fight between vampires, zombies and humans? Michael 1:03:37 It's a kind of a novella. There's about seven chapters of a longer thing. And there's also a shorter one about a group of teenage mutants called Black Bloc, that they have these kind of minor powers. One of them can, you know, it's Jackpot and Crackpot. Crackpot can kind of break out of anything and Jackpot can just affect the odds slightly in their favor and a bunch of other young people, nonbinary and so on. But they're also some different essays of mine in there and a lot of poetry and, yeah...Just the mathematics of the enormity of social economic inequality. People don't understand exactly what it is, but essentially, about 45% of the US population has the equivalent of 50 cents in assets. You know, people don't understand exactly what the class divide and the contradictions inside the society are, you know. We're we're duped into thinking that this is the richest country on the face of the Earth and the most powerful, you know. There's an enormous, hidden social cost and pain behind that and we have to figure out how to galvanize that into the power that actually those people possess and the creativity that they have. Inmn 1:05:03 Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, of course. And I'll we'll drop links to all the things that you mentioned in the show notes for people to find. And yeah, thank you. Michael 1:05:23 Okay. Take care. Have a great day. Inmn 1:05:25 You too. Inmn 1:05:26 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go out and live like the Empire is dying. And then tell us about it. And if you'd like to support this podcast, you can do so by telling people about it. 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Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Shane comes on to teach Margaret about distillation and all of the things that one could produce through distillation, like distilled water, hand sanitizer, fuel alcohol, essential oils, and alcohol for drinking. They talk through the science and dispel some myths around the process. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Shane on Distillation Margaret Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times...and it especially feels like the end times at least as we record this. I don't know when this is gonna come out, but we just had the hottest month on record. Maybe we've just had the hottest month on record when you hear this in October. I don't fucking know. I'm your host. I'm one of your hosts. I'm your only host today, Margaret Killjoy, and this week we're gonna be talking about something that I've wanted to know more about for a long time, although I'm absolutely terrified to have anything to do with it besides on informational and when-the-apocalypse-comes level because this week we are talking about distillation, the thing that should not be anywhere near as illegal as it is...or complicated legally. It's not always illegal. It's complicated legally. And we're gonna be talking about distillation. We're gonna be talking about distillation of alcohol for like...Well I guess all of it's distillation of alcohol, but we're gonna be talking about it from a like medical point of view and like having a good time point of view. And...obviously...don't do any crimes that you can get caught for. And, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Ba buh bub bub. [Making noises like a song melody] Margaret Okay, we're back. And if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then just a little bit of your background about what we're gonna be talking about about distillation. Shane My name is Shane, pronouns are he/him. I'm a hobby distiller. I've been doing it not for that long, but I've been doing a ton of research. I've been learning a lot about it, and yeah... Margaret What kind of....what kind of stuff....Let's point out that you live in Canada where the crime is a different one. Which isn't to say...I guess it's like...Well, obviously don't do any of the illegal stuff. But it seems like Canada has a very different attitude about this as the United States does. Wanna talk about that? Shane Yeah. So where I am, it is illegal. It's mostly illegal under our tax laws because they don't want you making it and selling it out of your basement or whatever. It's not really enforced if you...Don't take my word for that. Like, this is always gonna be a risk, but it's not really enforced if you're just doing it for yourself. Margaret Yeah. That makes sense. Is worth pointing out--I'm going to reiterate this way too many times on the show--that the ATF in the United States has a very different attitude about home distillation. And obviously, people still do it. And before we started recording, we looked it up and it looks like it is federally illegal, but not every state has it illegal and like some states that specifically illegal, I believe. Which, just gets into that weird thing in the United States where there's like some things that are federally illegal but are actually fine state to state. Shane Well I believe the ATF is a federal organization. So you know, it's still a risk if you decide to do that. Margaret Yeah, exactly. And I know for my sake, like, I'm literally not going to--usually, I'm like, like...I'm just, I'm not actually going to end up setting up a still. Even though I'm like very curious about the process, just because the cost-benefit analysis isn't going to work for me, but everyone's going to do their own cost-benefit analysis and it's information that I think is very practical and useful for situations in which you don't live under the United State's jurisdiction, whether because you live in a different country or because the United States has a collapse, which is one of the main things that we talk about on the show. So probably no one's gonna be surprised that I think that that's possible. So with that out of the way, what's distillation? Shane Basically, it's taking everything that's not alcohol out of the alcohol and throwing it away. So, you're just usually heating it up, collecting the steam, cooling the steam down before it escapes your system, and turning it into liquid alcohol. Margaret The steam is the liquid alcohol? Or the steam is that not liquid...is the everything else? Shane The steam is the liquid alcohol. You want to...ideally you want to collect that as it comes off your still, run it through some sort of cooling sleeve or condenser of some kind, and then collect what comes out the other end. Margaret Okay. I like...Whenever someone says like, "And then throw the other parts away." I'm like, "Wait, but tell me about the other parts." Is there like? Can you make like? If you make brandy out of wine, can you have like non alcoholic wine at the end too? Or like, is it just gross weird shit? Shane It's kind of gross, weird shit. There is some uses for it. I believe you can--you may want to look this up, if you have animals before you do this--I think you can mix it with your animal feed to add some nutrition or some calories to that. I've heard of some people doing that. I think you can--well, I know one thing you can do with it--there are certain traditions around making rum that actually keep that and put it into the next batch. Sometimes they put it in a pit and let it rot to add flavor. So, be careful with that. [Margaret laughing] But that is something you can do with it. Margaret So much like--this has come up on all the fermentation and brewing episodes--like there's so much stuff that's just weird magic-- [interrupted] Shane Yeah. Margaret --involved in food. Like, "Oh, yeah, you put it in the pit to rot. And that makes it taste better." And like, I remember once I was picking grapes for wine at a--like someone was just like paying me eight bucks an hour to pick grapes for wine or whatever at a vineyard--and they were...I was like, "Do I pick the moldy ones?" And they were like, "Yes, that's part of the flavor." And I'm like...I'm probably still gonna drink wine, but I'm going to think more about it as I do it. Shane There's a lot of weird magic stuff in distilling to, actually. So like this...one thing that your fermentation episode, the the magic spoon thing reminded me--or that was not the bread episode, I can't remember--But... Margaret I don't remember. Shane This is just folklore, but there was a thing in Scotland where when a big distillery would get a new still, they didn't really know how the flavor worked, all the chemistry of it yet. They would get a new still, but they wanted everything that came out to taste like the old one. So, in an effort to coax the spirit out of the old still, they would beat dents into it to make it looks like the old one. Margaret Hell yeah. [Laughing] Shane And it...that...weirdly enough, that does work. It does, like the shape of the still does affect the flavor. They didn't know why. But that's what they told themselves. Margaret It is so...I'm so glad I'm not a perfectionist. If I ever like am home brewing or whatever. I'm not going to be like, "I am going to recreate Guinness." I'm just going to be like, "Hell yeah, I made beer." Shane I'm the same way. Margaret Okay, so like um...what are some of the things...You know, when you when you pitched this episode to me--I was very happy to hear from you because this is something I've wanted to talk to someone about for a while--you talked about how there's a couple different things that one might want to make with a still. I mean, you're making alcohol, right, but for a lot of different purposes. Do you want to talk about what some of those purposes are? Shane Yeah, well, first of all, even if you're not making alcohol--and this is part of the way that stills get sold in the States and why it's still usually state by state legal to own one--you can make essential oils with it. You can make purified water. That's actually a huge survival benefit of having a still is being able to make distilled water. The alcohol can be used to make fuel which I believe is legal in some states. But besides that, like I said, the fuel alcohol, alcohol for tinctures, you can make any spirit you can drink, like vodka, whiskey, rum, etc. You can make hand sanitizer. I know that was a big deal around the start of Covid when hand sanitizer was selling out everywhere. People were, both big distilleries and some moonshiners in some areas, were kind of coming out of the woodwork and saying "Oh, by the way, I have a still. Here's a bunch of free alcohol to sanitize your hands with." Margaret That's cool. That makes me really happy. Like both sides of that. Shane It's actually one of the things that made me want to get a still was the capacity or the capability to be able to do that...And the obvious reason, but...[Trails off] Margaret Yeah, I mean...which is funny because I know that...When I used to, I used to shoot tintypes and one of the stages involves heating the tintype over an alcohol stove. And so in order to buy alcohol for that it had to be denatured, and that's when I learned that...I'm going to get the different types of alcohol mixed up. Ethanol is the drinking one and methanol is the one that you can't or something maybe? Shane And isopropyl alcohol is the other one you can't. Margaret Okay. And so, Denatured alcohol was alcohol that you can use as fuel. But they specifically add poison to it in order to make it so that you can't drink it, so that it can only be used for fuel? Is that...does that match? Shane That's right. So that started around prohibition. You used to build by ethanol by the barrel for almost nothing. But, they started requiring by law that you add methanol to it because people still needed alcohol for industrial purposes, but, you know, they added methanol specifically because it was damn near impossible to separate it out. And it's extremely deadly as well. So... Margaret We're gonna save people from the vice of drinking by murdering them if they drink this alcohol. Shane And it murdered a hell of a lot of people. Margaret God. Thanks, Protestants for prohibition. [Said with dry sarcasm] Shane I think a lot of places are actually moving away from that. So now a lot of alcoholic is denatured with bitterants instead, the same bitterants they put in air dusters. Don't take that as a reason to go buy some industrial alcohol and drink it, [Margaret laughing] because I'm sure many places are still using methanol. But yeah. Also, it's gonna taste bad if you do. So... Margaret Okay, so let's talk about like...I want to talk about the non alcohol...the non drinky stuff first. Like you mentioned fuel alcohol. What what do people...like to sell our preppers on fuel alcohol. What are you fueling with fuel alcohol? Shane Well, the first example--and one of the things I thought of when I was gonna get a still--I do a lot of camping and I currently use one of those isobutane stoves with the big expensive, disposable isobutane tanks. I'm considering--I haven't done it yet--but I'm considering making one of those can [like tin can] stoves, which is just a small alcohol stove that cost nothing, weighs nothing, to replace that. Cooking is one big thing you can do. You did mention using the store bought alcohol stove for tintyping. I believe there are alcohol engines, at least very small ones, but I don't know much about that. I know you can add ethanol to gasoline to make it a little bit more efficient, but I wouldn't recommend doing that with what comes out of a home still. Because I'm sure that whatever comes out of your home still is going to have some water in it. I wouldn't recommend combining that with gasoline. Margaret Oh, yeah, that sounds bad. Okay, so it's not like what you're going to put in your tractor. But, it could be what you're cooking off of. I suspect that there's ways...I suspect that there's like home heaters that can run off of it or ways to use it to heat homes, probably in very sketchy ways and possibly safer ways as well. Shane Actually, one thing I'm thinking of there is alcohol heaters are...You can actually make them with a mason jar. I've heard of some people, making them as like a mutual aid thing and giving them to people who are stuck in tents during the winter. Margaret Oh, yeah, there's the ones that--you're right--where you take the copper tubing and you do a little loop and you...Those are cool. And they're not fake like the...There's this thing where people are like, "Take a tea light and put it under a pot, and now you've heated your tent." People have done a lot of tests about this. It is not more efficient. It is not a very good way of heating and also it's a fire danger because the melting point...the flash point of wax is lower than the amount of heat that the terracotta pot can eventually put out. And so, you can you can start a fire that way. So actually, ironically, this like...Yeah, no, that's right, heater block. I need to have them on at some point talking about how people use these things. Shane They're also fire risk, but I imagine less so than a camp stove going off in your tent. So...People have made chicken wire cages and stuff for them as well. Margaret What is the like raw material that you're going to be using? Well, let's just talk about how you...How do you distill? Let's use fuel alcohol as like the main--because it's like the neutral one, right? It's not about flavor. It's just a, "Let's make ethanol." How do you make ethanol? Shane For making ethanol for fuel, if flavor doesn't matter at all, you basically want to find the cheapest source of sugars you can find. If you're already into home brewing, I imagine grain, malted grain, is probably one of the cheapest sources. If you don't have any equipment for dealing with grain, your best bet is probably buying the cheapest sugar you can find at a grocery store, combining that with some yeast nutrient, and some yeast, and fermenting that. That's what I've...That's what a lot of people will do when they start distilling. If they're trying to make a neutral like vodka or fuel or something, they'll make what's called a sugar wash. Margaret So a sugar wash is basically just fermented sugar with no added flavoring? Shane Yeah. And well...People will add things that are, like I said, nutrient. And one of the more common, more popular ways of doing it, if you're trying to preserve flavor, is using tomato paste as most of the nutrient. Because if you're adding a very little, very small amount of it, then it's not affecting the flavor when it's all said and done. Margaret When you say nutrient, I presume you don't mean nutrient for the end drinker. Is this nutrient for the yeast or something? Shane This is nutrient for the yeast. Margaret So they need more than just sugar to survive. Shane Yes, like us, they can't survive on sugar alone. Margaret But I've tried. Shane Yes. We all have. Margaret It's so cheap. Shane You put that into a bucket, probably the biggest container you can find, with some water. Obviously, don't just try to ferment the sugars alone. And leave that for about a week. If you do have a lot of the home fermenting equipment like hydrometers, and things like that, you can get a little more scientific about it. You probably don't want to go any higher than 1.01 gravity. Which is...Because beyond that, the yeast doesn't really like to be there. If you're trying to preserve flavor, don't go any higher than 1.0...or 1.007. I might be misremembering how to read these. Margaret Wait, but then why when you make beer, you're like, you're going way higher than 1%, right? Shane Not 1%. Sorry, when I say the starting gravity, you're measuring the amount of sugar, that's when you get that little thermometer looking thing and you float it in your ferment. So, you actually want to go to about 10 to 12%. So you can do the math to figure out how you want to get there. Margaret Okay, so the basic...Is the basic idea of distillation...the basic idea is you make a low alcohol thing, like beer, or wine, or just a sugar wash...You make some...alcohol, right? And then you're concentrating it by pulling out everything that isn't alcohol out of it in the still by--I think you already said this--by evaporating--I assume alcohol is a lower evaporation point than everything else is like the reason it works or something--and then you like run it through some cooling and then you end up with alcohol on the other end? That's the high percent alcohol? Okay. Shane So if you want to get a little more into distillation theory, it is a bit more complicated than that. But essentially, yeah, it is just because alcohol boils at 70 degrees instead of 100. The alcohol is gonna boil off first. Margaret Is that Celsius? Shane Yes, sorry. Margaret Great. No, we can use Celsius. Yeah, just wanted to...Yeah. Shane Especially when it comes to anything distillation related, I tend to default to that. Canada is one of the...kind of like the UK where we have a mix of units. But uh... Margaret Yeah, I think Celsius is better for science stuff and Fahrenheit is better for like how cold it is outside stuff, personally. Shane Especially if you're talking about boiling points of liquids. So...It's kinda made exactly for that. Margaret Yeah, that is I guess that is Celsius' main thing, yeah. Okay, so you make your sugar mash. Okay, let's just..To run through it, you've made your sugar wash, not sugar mash, sugar wash. Now, what are we...now what are you doing? Shane Mash is usually...If you're making it with grains, you'll call it a mash. But, after that, you will take all that and put it in your boiler, so the part of your still that's actually supposed to eat. You'll seal everything up, make sure there's no leaks. You obviously want to keep an eye on that. So one quick safety note: The most dangerous thing coming out of your still is vapor alcohol. Ideally, you don't want any vapor coming out at any point. That's why you have the condenser to cool everything. Margaret Oh shit. Yeah, because it's explosive. Shane It's very flammable. It's far more flammable than just a pool of liquid alcohol sitting there. Margaret Oh shit. Shane Unless you are...unless you have terrible terrible luck and you're in a closed system, it's not going to explode. But, it could cause a pretty bad fire. So I keep a fire extinguisher next to my still at all times. Anyway, so like I said, you want to seal everything up, make sure your water is running through your condenser, if using that kind of condenser and turn on the heat... Margaret What's a...just tell me what a condenser is. Shane So a condenser, because you don't want any steam coming out because it's hard to collect, it's kind of...All the steam will go through your condenser. The condenser will cool it all down, condense it back into a liquid, and liquid will come out of the other end. Margaret This is the like...wrapped copper pipe or some...tube? Shane Yeah, so there's a few different kinds. If you're looking at like a moonshine still, you're gonna see a copper tube coiled up through a bucket. I personally, I've had one of those. I hate that style. Because unless you're doing it outside by a river, it's kind of hard to control how much water is going through it and prevent it from overflowing. The kind I'd recommend, if you're going the DIY route, is a Liebig condenser, which is...You can look up easy plans online. So, you have a smaller copper pipe, a larger copper pipe on the outside of that with water running through it. So you'll have two, like an inlet and an outlet, and the hose or something running through that. And that's usually enough to cool down however much steam is coming out the other end. Margaret Okay, so like the big...When people talk about distillation, right, the big things people worry about is the government, obviously, but then also safety, like the food safety level of it, right? How dangerous is it to make ethanol? Are you going to go blind if you drink it? Is it safe to make fuel alcohol, dangerous to make drinking alcohol? Is it all overblown? Are there certain things that people can do? Please, whoever's listening, don't assume that you know how to do things just because you heard about it on a podcast. See this as like an overview and an overall interest. Shane Well, like I said, the main danger is fire safety. It's very flammable. Especially in the olden days, when they would do this on a propane fire or a wood fire or whatever. If you can avoid it, don't run your still over an open flame. I know your great grandfather probably did. But don't, Margaret So don't use the fuel alcohol to make more alcohol. [Laughing], Shane Preferably no. Unless you're outside and you're away from anything flammable. Margaret Okay. Shane But as far as food safety goes, there is a tiny amount of methanol whenever you ferment something. The methanol is the thing that makes you go blind, apparently. But the thing is, you're not getting anything out of your still that wasn't in the wine, or sugar wash, or beer that you put into it. There's not really any risk of methanol poisoning unless you really screwed something up with fermenting, in which case you would also get it from drinking whatever you drank, whatever you made from, whatever you fermented. There is this myth that popped up around prohibition because...So moonshiners would make their moonshine and they will try to increase their yields a little bit by adding industrial alcohol. That is where the myth of going blind and methanol poisoning comes from. It's not from people running their still in competently, it's from people trying to pass off industrial alcohol as safe. Margaret Okay, so like denatured alcohol got it in the mix? Shane Yeah, exactly. And sometimes there was never even a still involved. It's just some unscrupulous guy bought a bunch of industrial alcohol, threw some juniper berries in it, and called a gin. Margaret Okay. I'm half convinced that--I'm not from where I live right now, right--I'm half convinced that the person around here who gave me some moonshine, I'm like, half convinced that they just gave me some like,fucking vodka with food flavoring in it, and were like, "Yeah, that bitch isn't gonna fucking know the difference." But, yeah, I do...I like to think that I that they didn't do that, to me. Shane There's a big trend of you can just buy moonshine in alcohol and liquor stores now. But it's...a lot of people kind of don't consider it real moonshine because it wasn't made in the backwoods in an old copper still. Margaret Yeah, I mean, in my mind, moonshine means illegally manufactured alcohol that's very alcoholic. Shane Sorry, back to the like, the safety thing. There is one note. So, a lot of people will tell you when you're running you're still, that first thing you have to do is take the four shots out. And that's the first ounce or so that comes out of you're still... Margaret What's that called, the four shot? Shane Four shots. So that's a bit outdated. It comes from....So, basically a bunch of people were dying from from methanol poisoning and moonshiners were--the honest ones-- were scratching their heads trying to figure out what they were doing wrong. And so they thought, "Well, the methanol has a lower boiling point. So we can just take off whatever comes out first and throw that away," right? Margaret Okay. Shane Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Methanol and alcohol have very similar boiling points, and they come off throughout the entire run. You're not going to get rid of all the methanol by getting rid of the first shot. But what you...So, you don't really need to take four shots, but when you're distilling for drinking purposes, you're not going to drink the first little bit anyway. So you're going to take your cuts, so your four shots, the first section of cuts, then there's the heads, which has some acetone, some fruity esters, some nasty stuff in it that you don't really want, and you're gonna throw all that away. Margaret Can you use it as fuel alcohol or no? Shane Oh, yeah, you can still use that as fuel alcohol. Margaret Okay. Shane That's right. I shouldn't have even said throw it away. I don't throw mine away, personally. I use it when I start fires. Margaret I'm sure it's the way people talk about it. I just have a weird like, "Throw something away?!" But I'm a hoarder...I mean, uhhh, preparedness. Okay. Yeah. Shane The four shots thing is a bit outdated but that is...some people still do it as sort of a "just in case" or superstition more than anything. But that's the...The main thing is in the heads, there are things that aren't good for you. But like I said before, those things are going to be in your beer or your wine that you're fermenting anyway. The worst thing they're going to do is give you a worse hangover if you drink them. Margaret Oh, okay. That...I've always wondered why different...I've had some homebrew that has caused everyone in the room to blackout. Shane Mhmm. Margaret So, I've had some...I've had some homemade moonshine, also, that caused everyone to blackout. So it was probably heads or just like poorly made or something. Shane There's a another bit of like folklore. So there's another type of distilling you can do--this is a bit of a tangent--called a freeze...fractional freezing, where you take your--this is commonly done with apple cider--you take your cider, you put it in the freezer, you let it freeze, you scoop out all the ice, and what's left is a higher proof, higher strength. Margaret Wow, that's cool. Shane So, that was considered one of the first distilled beverages people would drink because it was called Applejack. And the hangovers from it were so bad that they gave them its own name Applepalsy because you couldn't take cuts when you're doing that. People would get completely sloshed on Applejack and they would...they probably woke up wishing they had methanol poisoning. Margaret So because you've talked about how all the like methanol and acetone and all that stuff is already in your homemade beer, right? Shane Exactly. Margaret But it seems like maybe the distillation process...like Applejack sounds like kind of was giving people a worse time than the apple cider was, is that because it's just a higher concentration, right? It's the literal amount of acetone, but there's like...it's just distilled? Shane It's mostly because people were drinking more of it and they're drinking it faster. So, if you take like a 500 mil, or a standard bottle of cider, and you drink all of that, it's not going to hurt you any less than if you distilled that and then drank everything that came out of it. But, you know, it's easier to get drunker on spirits than it is on cider. Margaret Yeah, that's true. Shane No. I also...the one thing I definitely wouldn't recommend, I wouldn't recommend taking all the heads and just drinking that because then you are getting a higher concentration of the acetone and methanol and... Margaret Right, so most people are getting rid of their heads also, and then only taking--what's the the opposite? Tails? What comes after heads? Shane Wait, why are you watering it down? Wait, I'm a little confused. What does, "take your cuts" mean in this context? Shane Tails is the last bit. You don't really want that either. Hearts is the good stuff in the middle. [Margaret giggles] So when you're taking your...typically, when you're running to still, you'll run it into mason jars, or any other small jar or whatever you can collect a lot of, and you'll just, you'll taste as you go, and you'll just swap out the jars as they fill up. And then the next day, when you got a fresh palate, you'll look at everything, water it down, taste it, and see where you want to make your cuts. Shane Take your cuts is when you figure out where your heads are, like where the nasty acetone, sickly sweet stuff is. And you water it down because you don't want to be like tasting 70%. You're not going to get much out of that. So you're figuring out what's your heads, what's your heart, the good stuff, and what's your tails, which is where it starts smelling a little weird, wet dog ish? Margaret Oh, I see. So it's not like, "The first third is this. The second third is this." Instead, you take all of it, and you keep it like all lined up so you know what's what. And then you're like, "Alright, jar three, it's starting to get a little bit less nasty. Jar five, it's smelling...it taste good. Jar nine, it tastes bad again." Shane Exactly. So unless you have a really well established recipe and you have a very consistent still, you're never gonna base it on how much has come through, or what temperature it's at, or what proof it's at. You're gonna base on taste. So, if you're running an industrial pot still, you're probably running off of an established recipe that your boss made for you. And so you're you're measuring, okay, so the alcohol is at 65%. We're going to start our heads...or our hearts here and separate that out. But if you're running a home still, you're not gonna be able to do that usually. Margaret Okay. Alright, so I have questions. Is there a way to test for methanol? Shane Not at home that I know of. But again, if you are the one who fermented the product, and you're the one who put it in your still, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's...Like I said, it's going to be in your cider or your beer or whatever. Anyway. It's almost impossible... [Interrupted] Margaret If you're willing to drink your beer, you should be willing to drink your whiskey. Shane Yeah, it's damn near impossible to get a lethal amount, or even a slightly dangerous amount, of methanol and your spirits. Margaret Okay. All right. My other question is, what are the variables? Like you talked about, like people in Scotland were like, denting their stills? Or maybe they're fermenting for beer? I don't remember what they were denting. Shane It was the stills. Yep. Margaret Okay. So it's like, does the taste and all of that change based on how quickly it came to a boil versus how quickly it didn't? Is it? Like, like, what are the...I assume there's just like a million variables and that makes it fun. So I kinda want to hear about them. Shane There's so many variables that this is like an active area of study in like industrial distilling. We don't know all the chemicals that are in like whiskey, for example. I'll use whiskey as an example because that's where flavor matters the most for a lot of people. Like when you're fermenting something, what kind of yeast you use matters a lot, what kind of grain, how much of each grain. And yeast doesn't just produce alcohol. Depending on how--people use the term stress--depending on how stressed out the yeast is, like how perfect the environment is for the yeast is going to produce different chemicals. Margaret How its day at work was and stuff. Shane Yeah, basically. If you ferment at a different temperature, or if you have too much sugar in your wash, that's going to affect the flavor. And if you use a different species of yeast, etc, but...And then, when it's in the still, all those different chemicals that that yeast made, and there's a lot of them, and also putting things that were just in the grain, not even things the yeast had anything to do with, all that comes off at a different temperature, at a different time. Some of it will come off in the heads. Like, I mentioned, acetone. There's also some...fruity tasting compounds that will come off in there that the yeast made or that were in the grain. The variable there is the fermentation, I guess. The next one would probably be...So you've probably noticed that most people make their stills out of copper. Margaret Yeah. I think so. I knew the pipes were but yeah. Margaret That's okay. It seems like we've kind of...fuel alcohol was a good base for now. Shane The reason for that, aside from the fact that that's probably what you can get at a hardware store when you're making moonshine, is there's also some sulfur compounds that kind of give the spirit a weird taste or smell, and copper supposedly does a pretty good job of stripping some of that out. So the more copper contact the vapor has in your still, the better. For flavor, at least. We're kind of getting away from few alcohol here. But that's for... Shane For fuel alcohol, you want to run it as high proof as you can. Ideally, don't put anything more than 40%. in you're still if you're running in your kitchen because for safety reasons. You just want to get as high proof as you can. That's the main thing. You want yield. But, for flavor, the amount of copper contact, the shape of the still matters because of something called reflux or passive reflux. Margaret Oh, I get that...Sorry, that's a joke about heartburn. Anyway... Shane I mean, it's similar in a still, weirdly enough, but like if you want to get more into the difference between the pot still and reflux still later, we can. But basically, a reflux still is something that does this on purpose. A pot still, depending on the shape of it and the temperature around you when you're distilling, some of the...As the vapor is going up, and before it even gets to your condenser, some of it is going to condense and fall back down. And some of it is going to condense and stick to the side of your still. And that's going to interact more with the vapor. That changes what chemicals come through it. Usually the more volatile chemicals will come through when that happens. Margaret So y'all are nerds, I'm guessing. Shane Oh, yeah. Margaret That's cool. I love that hobbies have like weird deep divy shit. So people like care about what percent of their vapor is coming down the sides and stuff because of how it changes the taste and other things? Shane Mhmm. And like I said, people didn't know how this worked before. They would literally just say, "Well, that I know that still makes some really good stuff. Let's just beat up this still so it looks like that one." And it works. So. No, you also don't have to get this nerdy with it. You can just buy a cheap Amazon or even there's.... Shane There's a good company called Still Spirits that makes a home still. You can buy one of those, throw your sugar wash in, mix it with some flavorings, and you got booze. If that's all you want to do. But..I'm a nerd about it. So yeah. Margaret Like a cheap water purifier? Shane Exactly. Margaret No, I mean, it seems like the kind of thing where like...I always go at things at two levels. I like first just like do it. And I like don't want to get nerdy when I first start. I just want to like, "Fuck yeah, I made some..." Well, I don't want to do this because...whatever. But like, I made some rum or whatever, right? I just want to do it and then after that, that's when I want to like do it the same over and over again or like compare the different things. And, so a lot of the variables and stuff aren't going to matter if your goal is to just have rum and you don't care if the rum is consistent because you're not a commercial thing. Margaret And it's more about it being fun to try and create the consistency? Shane You may still want to get nerdy with the cuts, though, because.... Margaret Because you don't want to drink acetone. you're not perceived. Acetone Shane Not for safety reasons. Even if you're just make...even if you just want to get some rum made and try it. If you don't bother taking cuts at all, it's going to taste awful. So at least put it in the jars and taste it and see what's best. So that's as nerdy as you want to get for your first go. That's what I did. That's as nerdy as I got my first run. Margaret What um, what was your first run? What would you recommend if they're different? What do you like making? Shane Honestly for your first run, just do a sugar wash because you're gonna throw that away or use it for fuel anyway because you want to do a cleaning run. If you got your still on Amazon or if you made it yourself, you want to make sure you get anything that could dissolve in alcohol out of there, like any fluff solder or whatever. And also make sure you using plumbing solder not leaded solder, that sort of thing. But...After that, the first thing I did was rum, because it was kind of easy. All I had to do was just figure out a way to ferment molasses. And I live not too far away from a place that makes molasses. So, it was really cheap for me to get a big jug of it. Margaret Hell yeah. Can I get some molasses? Shane But for your first go, you're probably going to do a sugar wash anyway. And I'd recommend turning it into gin because it's not gonna taste great on its own. Margaret Yeah, I was going to ask. Okay, so like...in my head, every hard liquor is like, the distillation of some soft liquor? But why is it called hard liquor? There's no other...All liquors hard liquor? Is that? Wait... Shane If it's distilled, it's hard, I think. I don't know. Different legal definitions. Margaret Yeah. So, like, in my mind, whiskey is like, beer that you take too far. Brandy has wine that you take too far. Not too far. But further...But maybe I like run out because I actually don't know what rum is...It's apparently made from molasses. Is vodka? Shane Anything. Any sugar cane product. Technically a sugar wash, I think, is rum. So, sugar cane...the easiest way for me to get sugar cane concentrate is in molasses from the store. So. Margaret Molasses is just burned sugar, right? Shane Molasses is just concentrated sugar cane juice. So fancy molasses is that Blackstrap stuff. They boil it to get all the sugar out of it and what's left over as Blackstrap molasses. So it's like a byproduct at that point, basically. Margaret That's kind of cool. I like weird byproducts that people have probably figured out by now. Okay, what's vodka? Is it potato liquor? Shane Vodka. A lot of people think it's potato liquor. It's really just neutral grain alcohol. So, it's basically, pretty much anything you make out of a grain...Potatoes are used for a lot of, in a lot of places cause it is what they have a lot of. But it's just anything that you've distilled up to above 95 or as high as you can go and then you water it down to drinkable 40%. So you're trying to get rid of as many impurities as you possibly can and make it as neutral as you can. That's vodka. Margaret Okay. Alright. Then what's whiskey? Shane You're pretty much on the money when you say it's just distilled beer. You wouldn't want to put hops in it because it won't taste very good. And you don't need to preserve it anyway. But it's any anything that's...any distilled, fermented grain. So, whether it's corn, or wheat, barley, whatever. Margaret Is there like a secret distillers only alcohol that you like can't get in the store? I guess moonshine is this. Okay, well, what's moonshine? Shane It depends. A lot of different people have different definitions. Like I read a thing about this on the home distillers forums--there's a whole hobby forum for this--their way of saying is whatever you consider moonshine is moonshine, because it's just any illegal alcohol. Traditionally, I think it's just an unaged corn whiskey. So just fermented corn, basically, and then distilled. Margaret Okay. But like, okay, so, in my mind, there's got to be like, a type of...Like, you know, if you like...People who grow food, often eat different kinds of foods that you can't get in the store, right? Or, like, people are like, "Oh, there's all these fruits that you don't even know exist," you know, because you go to the store and there's like only certain things. Is there like a hidden liquor? Is there like a distillers' liquor that--I mean, I guess moonshine is the closest to this--but like... Shane Well, probably the only one and it's more for because it's cheaper than anything but Sugar Shine. No one...like big companies aren't making sugar sugar washes mostly because, at that scale, grains are cheaper and sugar. But yeah, Sugar Shine is probably the closest thing to a secret distillers only. So it's like I said, that's when you take a sugar wash, you just fill it out. And it can be kind of good. It. It tastes like a sugar bowl smells. Does that make sense? Margaret It seems like it'd make a good mixed. Shane Yeah, oh, yeah. It's basically a vodka at that point. If you're doing it right. Margaret Is there an overlap or like a hatred between the groups of hobby distillers and the people who are really into like mixed drinks? Shane No. Mostly because anything you...Anything that comes out of a home still, you're probably mixing into a mixed drink anyway. Margaret Yeah, okay. Shane It's not...my long term goal is to make something that is good enough to sip neat, like to sip just no ice, just out of a glass. I haven't gotten there yet. Margaret Alright. How...the stuff that you're making, how headachy, hangovery, blackoutty? Are you doing like pretty good on that level. Shane I'm doing pretty....It's no worse than the commercial stuff, for sure. There's a couple things that aren't exactly distillers only, but they're less common for people who aren't alcohol nerds. One of them is absinthe. Margaret Yeah, okay, what's absinthe made out of? I know there's a wormwood in it. That's all I know. Shane So absinthe is...So it's a neutral spirit. You mix some wormwood and anise, usually, some other herbs and stuff in it. And you then you distill it again after it's been soaking in that for a day or so. And then you color it with more wormwood or fennel or something to give it a green color, or you can just leave a white if you want. Margaret Alright. My other question is, how much work is it? Like how much like raw stuff to make a little bit...Like you mentioned that people distill maybe flower essences or some other essential oils. Is that what you said? Shane Yeah. Margaret I know that essential oils are an incredibly like...like, you got to grow a field of lavender in order to make a vial of lavender essential oils, right? Shane Essential oils is a very different process that I haven't gotten super into. But from my understanding of it, you're really just using your still to boil water at that point. You're using the steam to extract the oils. So that you're getting a very little product, I imagine. For alcohol, if you make a standard batch that you would make for like a beer or wine like a 23 liter, or I think 6 gallon, you're probably gonna get two or three bottles, like standard sized bottles out of that. Margaret Oh, well, the standard like... Shane Like 750 milliliter bottles. Margaret Okay. So you can either have 24 beers or 2 bottles of liquor? Shane Yeah, basically. And that also depends on how strict you are when you're taking your cuts and stuff. And whether or not you're taking the cuts...Oh, one thing you can do with the cuts, by the way, I forgot to mention this earlier, if you're doing a pot still, you can take that and put it into the next batch to get a little bit more of the good stuff out of it. So you're gonna increase your yield as you go, basically. Margaret And if you make whiskey...if you make like flavored alcohols, can you still use them as fuel alcohol? Or is it like, not so good? Shane As long as you don't water it down. Yeah, sure. I think you want to keep your alcohol above 75% if you're using it for fuel. But if you're just...if you're drinking it, you probably don't want it to be 75%, in general. Margaret And how do you measure the alcoholness, the gravity? Is it still the same, you still use a hydrometer, or whatever, even though it's like super alcoholly? Shane You have to get a different hydrometer. It is the same thing. But you have to get a hydrometer that's made for measuring proof. And this hydrometer will not work in your beer. You can't proof out your beer using this because there's particulates in the beer that will affect your measurement. But if you're putting it in a spirit, that'll work. Margaret I, every now and then, get really annoyed at living in the United States. And this is one of those moments. I'm like, this sounds fun. It just doesn't sound cost-benefit fun. Shane Yeah, so I do enjoy the cheap alcohol aspect of this. But only if I don't think about how much time I spend on it. Margaret Oh, yeah, no, totally. Shane It takes like an entire day to run the still. It's just like an eight hour day. Margaret To get your like two bottles? Shane Yeah. So, it's not not even worth it from that point. But, it's a hobby, not a not a job. So that's why if they ever come accuse me of selling alcohol, I'll just show them the math. It's not worth it. Margaret Okay, now, is it fuel efficient, right? Like if you...I know that you shouldn't do it over and open flame, but it's the apocalypse and you have to. Do you have to spend...Do you have to burn more fuel alcohol to make...Like, do you get a net gain of fuel alcohol? Or do you get a net loss of fuel alcohol? Shane I've never tried to run it over and open flame, so I don't know. Margaret Yeah, don't do it. I'm just curious. Shane I will say, it does take a fair bit of power. So I don't know if you'd actually get a...like, back in the day, they used to do it over like a wood fire. I imagine probably because they probably don't want to take their moonshine and pour that in a big bucket and light that on fire to use that instead. Margaret Yeah, that makes sense. I guess there's other things that people like to burn more than...okay. I think that like answers most of my questions about distillation. Is there something amazing that I'm missing or anything that you like? Shane Do you want to give people some more practical information on like, where they can...Where or how they can get this stuff if it's legal in the area? Margaret Yeah. Shane I've done a little bit of, I've pulled up a few things on this. So, one of the common things that people will get is a still from Still Spirits called a Turbo 500. It's like a somewhat modular, cheap ish--It's like $550--still. It's kind of an all on one set. You just kind of plug it in and go. For the most part. You gotta have water running through it, but if you're trying to... Margaret Oh, it's electric? Shane Yeah, it's electric. Margaret So you don't have to like put it on a stove. That makes so much sense and it never occurred to me when you were like, "Oh, you don't have to put it over open flame anymore." I was imagining putting it on my like electric stove top. No, great. Okay. Shane Oh, I have done that with my first still. It's a little bit of a pain in the ass. I wouldn't recommend it. It's a bit fiddly on a typical coil stove because you got to balance everything on top of the little coil. Margaret Yeah. Okay, so anyway, so Turbo 500... Shane Yeah, so that's a fairly common model. It's under $1,000. If you live in an apartment and you just want to have the ability to do this, should it ever come up, if you need some sanitizer or just want to make a small amount of vodka, or if you want to use it for its intended advertised purpose and purify water, you can get a air still for under 100 bucks, usually. Margaret What's an air still? Shane So you don't even need water for this. You put...I'll actually describe what you're supposed to do with it. You fill it with water, your tap water. You plug it in, it'll boil that water, and it'll use a fan and an air cooler on the top to condense that back into water. So, it will distill water. And it'll do the exact same thing to alcohol if you let it. Margaret Okay, if you use it against its intended purposes, like if you were to use a bong to smoke weed instead of tobacco... Shane Exactly. So yeah. Now, some people don't like them because there's a lot of plastics in making them and people are iffy about having alcohol vapor touch plastic. Understandably. Yeah, but, you know, if you just want to...if you're making hand sanitizer or fuel, it's a great option to have. Like it fits under your counter. It's the size of a coffee maker. Margaret Okay, and you can put, "For tobacco use only," on it, and then people will... Shane Yeah. And then people will try to put tobacco in your air still and be really confused. [Laughing] Okay, so that's...and then the option that if you're getting really into fermenting, you're probably going to end up getting at some point, an all-in-one grain brewing system is what they're called. So it's...Have you ever seen those like big coffee carafes they have at like churches and like food banks and stuff or soup kitchens and stuff. Like the big cylinder, stainless steel cylinder for coffee? Margaret Yeah. Like it looks like one of those robots from Doctor Who. It looks like a Dalek. Shane Kind of, yeah. Okay. The T-500 is also very similar to that, but it looks like one of those. It comes with like a filter and stuff to filter out your grains from your beer before you turn it into beer. And a lot of the companies that make those will include little clamps on the side so that if you wanted to, you could go buy, whether it's a T-500 condenser, so you could buy the condenser separate or make your own condenser, you can slap it on top of that, clamp it down, and now you have a still. So that's actually...If you're getting really into fermenting, I'd recommend you get one of those anyway, because if you're going to be doing any beer, any grains, you're gonna want to have that. And if you ever decide you want to make a still, you've already got your boiler. Those can be a bit expensive, but I think they're worth it. Especially if you're making a lot of beer. Margaret Yeah. Yeah, I mean, every hobby starts at the $100 level, and then immediately goes to the $3,000 level, once you want to do it well enough, you know, Shane You can get these all grain brewing systems for less than $1000 as well. And also, if you want to make whiskey, you're going to be working with grains anyway. So it's this exact same sort of thing. You're making a beer up until the point where you put hops in. Margaret Okay. Is the Turbo 500, is that what you use? Shane No, I went over the route of getting the grain brewing system. Initially, I went the route of getting the cheapest still Amazon had, hating it, modifying it, throwing all that away, and getting what I just mentioned. Margaret Yeah, that's how I would do it too. Shane I got a couple of neat things out of the stove top still, but I eventually wanted to get something a bit bigger and a bit safer. So yeah, I went that route. Margaret Yeah, imagine. Are the cheap ones just like are they just like pressure cookers with some like copper coming out of the top? Shane They're essentially just pressure cooker stills with a coil and a--like the coil condenser that I mentioned I hate them--so my first modification was getting rid of that and replacing it with the Liebig condenser. So I made my own Liebig and it worked, but it wasn't...I had to tie it to my cupboard to keep it from falling over. Margaret So it's kind of...There's only one real object that people need. I mean, there's like ways to do it modularly, right, but there's not like a lot of different little... Margaret Well, there's also, importantly, two different types of stills. Margaret The reflux and the pot. Shane Yeah, the reflux in the pot. So I've been talking a lot about pot stills. The T-500 is a reflux still, although you can modify it to be a pot still if you want. And you can also get some cheap modular reflux stills, which is what I got to put on top of my grain brewing system. If you want to make vodka, if you want to make something that tastes very neutral, or if you want to make something that's a very high percentage, you need to reflect still. Margaret Oh, interesting. Because it's, kind of re...It's like multi...It's doing like almost like multiple passes of a distillation at once, basically? Shane Exactly, yeah. So, you could sit there all week and just run your product through a pot still 20 times or you can put it in a reflux still, once. Yeah, that sounds better. Okay. It's also safer, because I don't know exactly why this is the case. But the hobby communities rule of thumb is nothing more than 40% in the pot. Okay, so the highest you're gonna get out of that is around 70 or 80%. Which is Margaret Yeah, that sounds better. Okay. Shane It's also safer, because...I don't know exactly why this is the case, but the hobby communities rule of thumb is, "Nothing more than 40% in the pot." So the highest you're gonna get out of that is around 70 or 80%. Margaret Which is higher than I normally imagine wanting alcohol anyway. Like, I'd be watering down anything over 50% anyway, personally, but... Shane But if you want to make gin or absinthe or anything that starts with a neutral, or a vodka, for example, you're going to want to go up as high as you possibly can, which the highest you can go is about 95. Because the higher the higher you go, the less flavor you're getting out of it. Margaret Yeah. Which actually...It's suddenly making me think of Everclear. And like, the reason that I keep Everclear in my house is for like preservation and like herbs and tinctures and stuff, you know, which is something that I hadn't even...We didn't...Maybe you mentioned it in the list of things, but I'm only just now thinking of is like one of the other reasons that it'd be really useful for people to have access to make alcohol. Shane That's actually the reason I got it. Where I am, I actually can't buy Everclear because, you know, to protect us, I guess. Margaret Half the states are the same way. Shane But the thing is, I wanted to make orange liquor, is one of the first reasons, first things I thought of when I got into this. I wanted to make orange liquor, but I couldn't find Everclear Yeah, so I had to make my own. Margaret That's cool. That seems like that would be even more rewarding. Like I feel like trying to like learn how to make like a signature whiskey would be like fun, right? But what seems rewarding is making some 95% proof stuff that you can use as a mixer, or use to preserve things, and make medicine, and make things last a long time. But I'm also obsessed with making things last a long time. Shane And you can make sanitizer and medicine and stuff like that with what comes out of a pot still, but it's gonna be more effective...Well, it's gonna smell less bad on your hands, I guess, if you're making hand sanitizer, but you actually do want to water it down to 70 anyway, so... Margaret Oh, interesting. Yeah, and is making hand sanitizer basically just make 70% alcohol and then you like put that on your hands? Or is it like...are you using like...Do you like gel it up? Like, what do you do? Shane I mean, if you're just trying to get something, get some cheap sanitizer, yeah, you just make 70 or 80% alcohol and put it on your hands. You could mix aloe vera or lotion or something in there to make it, you know, less harsh, but... Margaret Okay. Well, is there any any last thing we're missing? Or a question that I should have asked you? Shane I don't think so. The last detail I wanted to get in there was make sure you don't try to use 100% or 95% alcohol sanitizer, because it doesn't work as well. I think a lot of people learned that around Covid, though. Margaret Okay, and then one weird thing I know about hand sanitizer is that hand sanitizer is very good for certain things. But if you live off grid and you put it in your outhouse or whatever, it doesn't do any good there. Hand sanitizer is effective for...My doctor friend will be mad at me if I don't get this exactly right. It's not good for the fecal oral transmission route. It is good for like stopping colds and stuff. Shane Now, I didn't know that because when I go camping, every outhouse I see has hand sanitizer in it. Margaret Oh, yeah. And you know what? It's great. It stops other stuff that is unrelated to what you just did. A good thing to have. Shane A false sense of security there, I guess. Margaret Yeah, exactly. And you know, and if you have other safety practices in place for your off grid bathroom then you should be good in terms of distance from your kitchen. But more importantly, like, if--this is completely just a PSA--if you're setting up some kind of like outhouse space for a lot of people and your camping or whatever, you're going to want to set up a hand wash station that use soap and water because that is what stops transmission of things along the fecal oral route. And I don't remember what the thing that, the word for what hand sanitizer does is, but I think it's the breathey-iny-type stuff is what hand sanitizer is good for. I hope I got that right. And if not, do your own research. Don't listen to some girl on the internet who's interested in everything and not good at any of it. Shane Also, one last note. The same for this stuff. Don't listen to this podcast and then immediately buy a still. There is a lot of information, like hobby information online. There's the Home Distillers Forum. There's a couple of Youtubers that make content about this. So get your information from more than one place. Margaret Well, is there anything you want to shout out or plug either something that you do or something that you want other people to pay attention to here at the end? Shane Beyond what I just said, No. I don't really want to be found. So, don't have anything to plug. I just wanted to make this information available to people. Margaret Well, I really appreciate it. And thanks so much for reaching out. And thanks for coming on. Margaret Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode, if you didn't, why did you keep listening? Was it that you set it on in the background and then went about your day and have been like sort of angry the whole time that you've been walking your dog or driving that you're still listening to it and you wish you'd been listening to something else? If so, don't tell me about it. But if you did like listening to it, you should tell other people about it. You should tell people, "Live like the world is dying!" and then people will be like, "What?" And you'll be like, "Sorry, it's the name of a podcast I like. Don't actually do anything different about the fact that the world's ending. Just go about living your life," and then people will be like, "You're exactly the kind of reason that we don't like listening to doom say..." Okay, so if you like this podcast, you can support it by telling people about it. That's the single biggest thing that you can do. You can also support it by supporting us financially on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness, because this podcast is put out by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is an anarchist publishing collective that puts out podcasts as well as books, and zines, and a bunch of stuff. And we've been around for almost 20 years. We haven't been doing podcasts that whole time, because there weren't podcasts when we started. Instead, it was mostly zines for a while. But in particular, I want to thank, first and foremost and always, Hoss the Dog. And I want to thank Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, Paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice & Odell, Oxalis, Jans, Funder, Anonymous--names are getting really interesting more recently--BenBen, Princess Miranda, Trixter, and Lord Harken. Sorry, just a silly way to pronounce that. I think. All right. I'll talk to you soon. I'm gonna go eat fucking dinner because I've been recording all day. Jesus. Which was months ago now by the time you're listening to this. Why are you still listening to this? You should hit stop. There's not any like big secrets that I'm going to reveal if you keep listening. I'm just going to tell you what I ate for a snack, which was that I air fried some frozen potatoes and thought to myself, "I wonder if I can make my own frozen potatoes. I wonder if that's what I can do with old potatoes before they go bad, if I don't eat them in time. I wonder if I can cut them up into little shoestring fries and put them in a freezer bag and then put them in the deep freezer and eat them later?" Are you still listening? Bye. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Pat talks to Margaret about working outside for a living with the National Park Service. They talk about gear, preparedness while hiking, search and rescue, how to prevent needing to be sought for and rescued, and the unfortunate realities of climate change. Guest Info Find Pat on the trails. Do not find them on the internet. They cannot be found there. Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Pat on Working Outside Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy. And this week...Okay, so you know sometimes I have these shows and it's basically like I find people who talk to me about the things that I've decided I'm really interested in that week. Well, this is one of those examples! And so I'm really excited about it. I think you'll all be excited about it too because this week I am talking to Pat who works outside for a living and he gets to do search and rescue and help people access parks because he is a backwoods...person...at a national park. And yeah, I don't know, I think...I'm excited for the conversation. I can't tell you what's gonna be in it because I haven't done it yet because I record these before I do the interview instead of afterwards. But! This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Baba Baba bu ba baa ba ba baaa. [Making noises like a song melody] Margaret 01:51 Okay, and we're back. Pat, so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then just like a little bit about the work you do? Pat 02:02 Yeah. So I'm Pat. He/him. I am a back country ranger for the National Park Service and I've been doing it for about 10 years. So I basically just hike around to talk with people, help out with search and rescue, clean toilets, do whatever needs doing. Yeah. Margaret 02:24 Hell yeah. Okay, I have one question up front. Pat 02:26 Yes. Margaret 02:27 Okay, once when I was doing this forest campaign in a national forest--so not the Park Service, but, you know, the National Forest Service--there was this pit toilet. And--because he brought up toilets--there was this pit toilet and it had a door. And we would prop the door open to avoid it smelling. But then the Ranger came by and yelled at us and says that it works better...The like ventilation system is built on the door being closed. But then other times, I feel like I've seen ones that say, "Leave the door open." What's the deal? Pat 03:00 That is...I'm going to chalk it up to every toilet in the back country is different. So maybe one of them was like designed in such a way with specific ventilation systems, because they get pretty high tech. We have some that have like little solar powered computer fans that will like vent air out and bring fresh air in to try to dry them out. It's kind of neat. It's a huge part of the job. Margaret 03:25 This was like 20 years ago I think...Probably didn't have a solar panel Pat 03:27 Probably not solar powered then. [At the same time as Margaret says above Margaret 03:28 I just couldn't figure out whether she was like fucking with us because she didn't like us or whether she was just like annoyed at these idiots who thought they knew about the woods but didn't. Pat 03:41 Well, the reason they gave may have not been like 100% accurate. Like one thing that comes to mind is--it really sucks--but you know, critters find their way down into there. And so if the door's open like, you know, a raccoon or something may climb down there and like it really sucks because oftentimes they get down there and they can't get out. And you know, at my park, we shovel all of that waste out into buckets and hike it out. [Margaret makes a "pee-yew" noise of disgust] And sometimes you know little chipmunks and stuff are in there. It's really sad. Margaret 04:12 Yeah, Is there like a back entrance where you can go down and access the pit? Or do you have to just literally like drop buckets and like it's a terrible well? Pat 04:24 Oh, no, those structures are literally just...like you just you just like rock them and move the wooden structures off. They're not secured to the ground. and then you put a hole in the ground with just like posthole diggers. Margaret 04:44 That's fun. I'm glad that this is the first question I asked you. [Laughing] Pat 04:48 It's part of the job. Sorry, gonna turn all the listeners away. Margaret 04:52 No, no, no, no, I asked. And I think that that's like....Okay, I mean, that even gets kind of...Um, when I would do any kind of forest defense or anything that involves living in the woods, I feel like one of the main signs of like a newbie in a bad way was people who didn't dig a hole before they took a shit. Pat 04:53 Yes. Margaret 04:54 You know? And so the stuff that when you're like in houses and stuff that you sort of take for granted, you can't take for granted when you're not. So it sort of makes sense that shit is the defining characteristic. Pat 05:28 Yeah, it's kind of fun. Margaret 05:29 But, speaking of shitty jobs...Hehe, I had to make the pun at least once. I'm very sorry. What got you deciding that you want to work outside? Pat 05:41 I feel like I was kind of like destined for it. Kind of a weird way to put it. I was basically...my first backpacking trip was before I could walk. My dad put me on his shoulders. And I was out in the woods when I still in diapers. I grew up doing Boy Scouts so I was backpacking basically once a month. And so I just continuously did that essentially my whole life, and then, weirdly enough, in college kind of fell off for a bit. And then, you know, I graduated and decided to volunteer and have been doing it ever since. Margaret 06:17 Okay, and you moved from volunteer to now this is what you do professionally, right? Pat 06:20 Yeah, that's kind of the primary path to get in. If you're not coming from some sort of military background or something, you kind of have to volunteer or do an internship or something like that. It's a pretty small community. So getting your foot in the door and learning the lingo is kind of important. And having a name that a hiring manager can call for a reference check that's like in the system is kind of an important deal. Margaret 06:49 That makes sense. Pat 06:50 Yeah. Kind of a small community. Margaret 06:53 What do you like about it? Like, I think that a lot of people listening...So the reason I wanted to had you on, part of it is about search and rescue stuff--which I want to talk to you about in a bit--But part of why I wanted to have you on is I think that a lot of the listeners, a lot of listeners do either work outside or spend...Like I actually work inside, but almost all of my hobbies--and I make it this way on purpose--take me outside. And then I often sort of live outside. I don't currently, but I have at various points. But I think that a lot of people are looking for ways to get outside and don't like their current work or don't have work at all or whatever. And so I guess I want to ask you about what you like and don't like about having a job that has you outside all the time? Pat 07:43 Yeah. I mean, it's...I love that my job like requires me to be out there. It's like such a huge boost for mental health and everything. It's nice that I don't have to, like take time off for my family to go out and get those experiences. So that's really huge. Yeah, the outdoors is like a...I'm sure a lot of people that go out regularly have the experience where it's...even if you're not religious or anything but it's kind of got a spiritual element to it where you're just like out in it in the wilderness by yourself or even with a small group, and it's just refreshing, you know. It fills you up. So that's huge that I get to do that and I get paid for it and I get to--I think most of all--I get to help people get out to get into it, pointing out trails, conditions, things that. Yeah, it's really cool to have a job where I can, like materially help people on a day to day basis, you know? Like when I recommend a day hike and someone comes back like all sweaty but smiling and thanks you for it. You know, it's a good feeling. Margaret 08:52 Yeah, yeah. So you're like the human Alltrails[.com]? Is that what you're saying? Pat 08:57 Yeah, I've got a little bit of a beef with Alltrails. But that's maybe another conversation. Margaret 09:04 Wait, I want to hear because I've been using Alltrails Pat 09:07 I, and maybe this is just me, but I dislike how Alltrails chunks everything down into like little specific trails. So like, people come in and ask about like this one trail and it's got a name that I've never heard of and I'm like, "Oh, you're talking about like this section of the trail going up to here." Like, I'm much more like destination based. But that's just me, you know. People like it. And it's really great for finding new stuff. You have the maps right there, which is really great. Although I don't think it's as robust of a GPS tool as some of the other apps. But yeah, it's got some weird stuff with like...Some of the information isn't always accurate. So don't trust it 100% is what I'm getting at. Margaret 09:54 Yeah, I have noticed that, that it never takes me to the right place to start a trail... Pat 09:59 See. Margaret 09:59 Which, i feel like it's just trying to keep me honest. It's trying to make sure I learned how to read maps right. Because it takes me to the wrong spot. But it doesn't do it when I'm like in the backwoods as much, right? Like backwoods is an exaggeration of the kind of hikes I do. Okay, no, no, I mean, because one of the things that I almost dislike about it when I started using it is I'm like...It's kind of like when I'm driving, and I used to drive without a GPS, and drive across the country and all that. And now I drive with a GPS and I know exactly how many minutes are left in my drive. It's a little weird that I have brought that into my hiking life I admit. But, I do like that there have been a couple times where I've been hiking and I'm like, "I don't know where this fucking trail is. Where the fuck am I?" And it's been like, "You're in the wrong place." And I'm like, "Thank God." Pat 10:56 Yeah. Good job, mapping tool. Margaret 11:01 Yeah, exactly. Pat 11:03 It's amazing now how the phones have replaced so many tools in my back country pack. You know, it's like, my camera, it's my GPS, it's, you know, I listen to podcasts when I'm hike. It's...Yeah, it's kind of cool. Very Powerful. Margaret 11:19 Yeah, no, I like it too. I used to hike around with an SLR [Big camera]. And I'm glad I don't anymore. Margaret 11:20 That's a lot of weight. Yeah. Margaret 11:32 Yeah. Okay, so how does it affect...You talked about like...One of the things that you said about working outdoors that actually seemed really interesting to me that seems really cool is that you don't have to take time away from your family to do it because it is the thing...You're combining the thing that you want to be doing and the thing you do for work. How else does it affect your life, working outside or even specifically working for the park service? Pat 12:00 Yeah. So you know, I have a family. I have a wife and kid at home. So...but where I work is, you know, it's a good couple hours away from where my wife and kid are. So it can be a little bit challenging at times. And I'm really lucky that I've got the situation that I do because my wife has a decent job with all the benefits and everything and I'm a seasonal employee. So I'm working May to October, and then I get like...and so in the winter months it's kind of worked out where I'm able to be a stay at home dad and take care of my kiddo. Yeah, it's pretty...It works out really well. And as she's starting school, I'm just transitioning to homemaker, which is kind of working out pretty nicely. I just get to bake bread and do the laundry and all that fun stuff. It's pretty great. Yeah, it's a good setup. But in the summers, I ended up being away from my family. I go home on my weekends. But, you know, I spend four days at a time out here in the back country and in the office. And, you know, it kind of stinks, but I'm out in the woods and I get so much family time in the actual winter that it it kind of evens out. Yeah. Margaret 13:17 No, I mean, it sounds like it has advantages over almost every office job. Like even though my parents came home every day, both of them worked easily 12 hour days most days. Yeah. Pat 13:32 And my wife's job allows her to travel in the summers. So they go and visit family. Like they're off doing stuff. So you know, the couple months where they're off doing those kinds of things, you know, it's not terrible. It lets me go off and do my own thing on my days off. So it works out nicely. Margaret 13:49 Yeah. What would you say for like...I'm obviously...I presume you can only speak specifically to the park service or whatever. But do you know much about like other outdoors jobs or like what kind of like...What would you say to someone who's like thinking about working outdoors? Pat 14:06 Yeah. So I've worked closely with some forest service stuff, forest service people. I shared an office with them for a couple of years. So, you don't just have to work for the government to work in the outdoors. You know, there are a variety of jobs working for federal or state agencies. You know, there's wildland fire. There's jobs that take you outdoors if you're interested in like biology. You know, there's people that go out and survey frogs and that's their whole...Their whole job is they spend the summers at alpine lakes just like doing frog surveys, which is pretty cool. But, there's also some of the non government jobs,. You know, there's guiding services. They're the folks that take people up those mountains like Denali and Rainier. They're private companies. That's a job that you can get in there. And also--it's not necessarily in the outdoors but adjacent to it--you know, all those national parks have concessions, you know, private companies that run the hotels and the shuttle services and all of that stuff. So you don't even necessarily like have to be a park ranger to like work in Yosemite or something like that, you know? You can be like a line cook and still live in the valley and be able to go day hiking in those gorgeous places on your days off. So... Margaret 15:30 Okay, so I actually first ran across you because I put out a call saying I'm interested in talking to people who work with search and rescue. And I had initially thought of--and I'll probably interview some other people about this, and who knows what order they'll come out, so maybe you're hearing this after I've already put out some other ones--But I was originally thinking about volunteer search and rescue, right, and the the groups that do it in different regions, but you do search and rescue as part of your work. And I wanted to talk to you about that, about what search and rescue is like. And just to...the reason I got really interested in thinking about this was I was thinking a lot about how search and rescue is a form of mutual aid that our society puts together and how there's been like--I guess every now and then people try and charge people for search and rescue services and then everyone gets really upset about it. This is like something I'm completely outside of. I just read articles every now yeah and then. So I kind of wanted to ask you about the field of search and rescue and your work with it. And what that's...What's been involved? Pat 16:31 Yeah, um, I am kind of...you mentioned it, pretty lucky in the search and rescue world in that I get a paycheck for what I do. The Park Service is unique in that it's part of like our enabling legislation to provide for the safety of our visitors. So most other places, it just goes to the county sheriff. That's just the default, the County Sheriff. They don't have the budget to have a paid search and rescue team. And there's always, always always volunteers, people willing to step up to help. Which is, yeah, kind of amazing. And yeah, it's pretty great. We don't ever charge for anything. My park owns a helicopter and we don't charge for pulling people out of places and lifting them everywhere. Yeah, it's a pretty cool setup that we're able to just purely help and not at all worry about money or anything like that. It's pretty great. It's interesting because you see it a lot just in everyday like back country interactions with, you know, non search and rescue personnel to where, you know, you get injured in the back country and complete strangers are going to help you no matter what. Like, you see someone on the trail, they will help you in pretty much any sort of issue you have. I do love that about that sort of wilderness aspect is that like, everyone helps each other. It's kind of great. Margaret 18:08 That is a...I think that's a really important point. We had a guest recently who's a wilderness guide in Arctic regions and how that work actually led him to understanding anarchism and non-hierarchical organizing was that realization of like, of some of the things that come up in the back country. And so this thing that you're talking about, about how everyone helps you when you're in the backwoods, I think about...Like, I'm a real weird looking person by most of society's standards. And if I am in most...If I'm in the back country, if I am on a hike anywhere other than kind of like a weird city trail or something, no one looks at me weird. Everyone just like nods like they do everyone else. And it reminds me...[Interrupted] Pat 19:02 Everyone says hello... Margaret 19:02 Oh, go ahead. Pat 19:03 I was just...Yeah, it's amazing. People just say hi. They wave. It's...You drive a dirt road and everyone waves. It's interesting. Margaret 19:12 Yeah. And it reminds me a little bit about what I hear about, and what I've had minor experiences of, of what happens in disaster, which is, you know, the main theme of the show, right? And I wonder whether it's just because when we're far away from civilization and like we...the alienation of society, or civilization, or whatever the fuck--I don't know what we call this--but, you know, the alienation drifts away when we're in these places that don't have as many structures in place or like...What do you think it is? Why is it...If someone's passed out in the street in a city, everyone walks by them, and it's like, "Oh, that person didn't take care of themselves. So fuck them." right?" Pat 20:00 Yeah, it's...You're absolutely right. It's an interesting phenomenon. I think it has something to do with when you're away from that safety net of society, when you're away from like, "Oh, an ambulance is just a 911 call away. Someone else will do it. Someone else has done it." When you're out there and you're...You know that, "Oh, I haven't seen anyone in two hours and here's this person who's injured." You know that like you are the only one. I think that's part of it. And also like maybe a sense of, "Well, I would want someone to help me in this situation." And I you know, when we're in the woods we we see ourselves potentially in more risky situations. I don't know. It is... Margaret 20:48 No, that that bystander effect....Go Ahead. Pat 20:50 No, I'm just, you know, it's that or it's just, you know, when you're away from all of this modern everything we've built, people just are how they naturally are, which is helpful and kind. Margaret 21:04 Yeah. And, and that's what's so interesting to me about it is that like because people talk about like--a lot of preppers, especially like the center-right preppers and things--will talk about backwoods skills as the most important prepping skills. And overall, I don't think that that's true. Although, I think backwoods skills are great and I'm personally trying to work on mine. But maybe it's like, they're getting the wrong things out of it, right? Like, I mean, it's cool to know how to hit squirrels with axes and skin them or whatever. But knowing how...Like returning to this, "We take care of us" thing, returning to this sense of like, "We're in this together," maybe that's the more important backwoods skill. Pat 21:52 Honestly, it's wild. You have, you know, just the interaction you have when you're just far enough away, where you're not, you know, close enough to society. Everyone's...everyone's really friendly. Yeah, it makes my job really easy. Margaret 22:16 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I always have...Like, when I talk to park rangers of various types, they're usually fairly happy and not like smiling because they have to for work. Pat 22:28 Well, it's like a customer service job at its core, but you're talking with the crowd of people that are--like we were just talking about--gonna go out into the woods and say hi to every person they see. And they're like, going off and they're spending their free time to go do this. Like it's a very specific crowd of people. And it's very like, okay, yeah, it's gonna be...[Audio distortion with missing words] Very rarely do I ever have difficult interactions with people. Margaret 22:55 Yeah. So with search and rescue, I have a couple questions about it. Okay, one, the least...the most specific--sometimes I like to just ask the most specific question that's on my mind. Which is, so I carry...like when I hike I carry a Garmin inReach Mini 2. I carry an SOS device and a satellite communicator, right. And it's the most expensive thing on my fucking pack. It probably costs as much as the rest of my pack, but I like having it because I hike by myself. I hike by myself...well, with my dog. And this seems like overall a very good thing. I'm very glad I have it, but I keep wondering, especially like when compared with like smartwatches that can send SOS's and like now phones can send an SOS, are you all like buried under fake SOS calls now? Pat 23:46 So no. Not really. We haven't...I feel like it's just that like new iPhone I think that does that SOS, but I don't think we have enough of those out there just yet to really see a lot of that. But, the inReach is our--my goodness--like gold standard. Those things it's an absolute wonder how those streamline the search and rescue process and get people to the care that they need quick. Yeah, like there's numerous situations I can think of off the top of my head where an individual would have potential...would likely have have died if they didn't have an inReach. Yeah, that...I'm sold on those things. They're just the absolute best. And there's a different brands, not inReach specifically. There's a couple other varieties, you know. I'm not here to sell Garmin products or anything, but anything that you can press a button and call 911 is huge. Margaret 24:51 Right. They haven't sent us one for free. Okay, yeah, it's funny because ever since I bought the Garmin inReach I am on their like mailing list and so I get the like...like once a month they send a story of like, "This man survived because he...on a ledge for six hours because of his Garmin inReach 2." Yeah. And it's like clearly sales propaganda. But it's also true in this case. Pat 25:18 Just last year, we had an individual who was experiencing heat stroke, was getting like combative with the rescuers. They were in such a bad way. And if they had not had the inReach, they were like 15-20 miles from the nearest road. If they had not had that inReach for us to be able to get a helicopter there like quickly, it would have been a much different mission for us. So yeah, it's...Yeah, those things are amazing. Margaret 25:49 Yeah. So if you're listening, Garmin, send us free ones to give to our listeners.. Pat 25:59 Garmin kind of stinks because you have to pay a fee, like the monthly whatever, in order to pay for it. Like the best...The only like real benefit it has over some of the other ones is that you can send messages. But the other ones, I think Spot is a simple one, you just buy once and you don't have to pay things. You just like jam a button and it's good. Also most boats have them, so if you have access to a sailboat, you could probably find one Margaret 26:24 Okay, now that actually, that's funny. I mean, one of the things, the only thing I've ever used my Garmin for, right is the text communication and the...So for anyone who's listening, it's a small device. It's like, it looks like a miniature walkie talkie. It's smaller than my cell phone, but it's like chunky and it's a satellite communicator. I pay a monthly fee. I think it's like 10 bucks. You can pause it whenever you want. So, if you're not gonna go anywhere for six months, you can stop. And it gives you like basically a phone number that you can text anywhere you can see the sky in the world. And then you're paying, you know, 25 cents a text or I'm making that number up. I don't remember how much money it is. It's around that. And yeah, and so it gives you an SOS button, which calls for help and tells people where you are, or initiates communications with the responders. And it also just lets you...like it Bluetooths to your phone, or you can very slowly and annoyingly type on this like weird thing. It doesn't have a touchscreen. And so, one of the reasons I actually do like that model is that like, I don't want to interact with authorities unless I absolutely need to, right? And I absolutely will press the like "Please save my life button," right. But, there's a lot more situations where it's just like, "Oh, I'm gonna go be off grid for a week. It would be really nice to know..." Like, recently I was off camping in the backwoods. Well, not really the backwoods. I'm playing myself up. I was fucking...I was at Joshua Tree. I didn't have cell service and my aunt was in the hospital and I just wanted to know if anything happened to her. And so it was nice to know that I was able to be reached. Pat 28:20 Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's huge. You know, I do a lot of solo travel too. And so it's nice to be able to--just because you can send your track as well. So you can send like, "Oh, this here, you can follow me on the website." And so like, you can just send a link and initiate your tracking. Like, "I'm gonna go off trail and scramble up this little peek here. Like, go ahead and follow along." It's kind of nice, nice reassuring, at least. But then you're connecting with that outside world, which takes away that part of the wilderness a little bit. Margaret 28:55 I know. I was gonna say that part of it. And I feel bad saying it, but like... Pat 29:00 It's true. Margaret 29:01 Everywhere has cell service now and I'm like not always glad. Pat 29:06 It's nice when you can't be...[Talking over each other] Margaret 29:10 Okay, well...Go ahead. Pat 29:11 I was just saying it's nice when you can't be reached. Margaret 29:12 Yeah. For anyone who is listening is wondering why the conversation...We both have shitty internet. So there's lag and that's what you all are listening to. Which, is the fun thing about two people in a rural situation and trying to record a podcast together. And so okay. So you go and you do search and rescue and I have two questions about that. I have more questions about that. Garmin was my like weird specific one. What are people doing? What are the main takeaways that you're learning that you see hikers or campers or all vehicle, all-terrain whatever...offroaders. Whatever. Like, what are people doing that puts them in these situations where they need rescue. Like what? What lessons can you impart to our audience from having seen people both live and die in bad situations in the woods. Pat 30:05 I think the biggest thing...So it kind of depends on where we are. If we're talking about like the close in day hiking trails, the folks that are just out for a vacation and like maybe doing a hike in flip flops. For that, we're looking at a lot of the basic like, you know, the dehydration, twisted ankles, things like that. You know, people that don't hike a lot are going out and suddenly doing a, what may be for them, a really strenuous hike. And so those sort of like, broken ankle dehydration, whatever medical issues, you know. Grandma doesn't really hike and she's suddenly climbing up some switchbacks and, you know, has some some sort of condition that that causes her to go down or something like that. So that's what happens kind of in the front country. In the back country, when you're like really a little bit deeper out into the wilderness, oftentimes, what gets people into the most trouble is they are overextending themselves. They are pushing past what they are really kind of capable of doing. Oftentimes, you get a lot of like the weekend warriors who maybe haven't done a ton of hiking, who really decide like, "I want to do this one hike, because I saw it on Instagram. And I've got to do it because it looks really cool." And it's way above where their skills are at. They maybe go on too hot of a day and they don't have enough electrolytes. And so we still get a variety of, you know, the whole gambit of issues that can arise when you're out in the back country. But usually, it all stems from pushing themselves beyond what they should do for their capabilities. Yeah, and then the occasional like, whoopsie daisies breaking an ankle. Margaret 31:57 So it's actually kind of the same thing as the front country? Pat 32:00 Yeah, I mean, you're right in a sense. I don't...Yeah, it's just more of...Yeah, you're right. It ultimately comes down to just going beyond what you're, you know, expecting yourself to go do more than what you're actually able to do. Yeah. Margaret 32:15 Yeah. Alright, so are the majority of things heat related and ankle related? Pat 32:22 Oh, yeah, those are the two big examples. Those are honestly, kind of the most often are lower leg injuries, you just you step wrong, and you mess up an ankle, and then dehydration, and like heat illnesses. That's like, probably a solid like 80% of what we see on a day-to-day basis. And those are all easily resolved. You know, they're the quick in and out a couple hours and it's done. Go in. Bring some electrolytes to someone. Bring them back up and you just walk out, make sure they're okay. Or if it's an ankle, quickly pop up there, and if they're close enough, give them some crutches and help them get out. Get into a litter and wheel them out if you need to. Margaret 33:06 Okay, so the reason that I'm like...the ankle thing. I watch way too much like hiking YouTube. I wear--just because I'm an old punk--I wear boots all day every day. I used to wear big stupid steel toed boots and hike in them. And now I wear like tactical boots because they have side zippers and they're lighter. And I like them more. Not aesthetically, honestly but for my life. But but all the hikers I know are all obsessed with trail runners. And everyone is like, "No one actually rolls an ankle. What are you talking about?" But you're telling me that people roll ankles? Pat 33:45 Yeah. The people that roll ankles are usually in boots, surprisingly enough. Margaret 33:51 Oh, shit. [Laughs a little manically] Pat 33:53 Yeah. If you're like using trail runners, oftentimes, you're like strengthening your ankles and allowing that movement in your ankle, you know, because like the trail runners usually coincides with lighter pack weight as well. So, you have less weight, less risk. We're able to actually like move with you rolling an ankle. So like, yeah, like I occasionally like step weird. My ankle twists. But like, I'm not locked into something where now all of my body weight is going to be over that. I can quickly adjust and like, be fine. But yeah, it's usually the boots that you're seeing the ankle injuries with. But like if it works for you, hike your own hike. I try not to judge people for their gear. But yeah, the trail runner cult is real and for good reason. Margaret 34:45 Yeah, you're a trail runner guy. Okay. Okay. Pat 34:48 I only wear boots in snow. Margaret 34:49 I mean, everyone I know who's actually an outdoors person. Pat 34:52 Yeah. That's trail runners. Margaret 34:55 Okay. Yeah, I mean, at least like, you know, I...my friend Carrot was on talking about ultralight hiking and thru-hiking and you can hear in that episode me slowly getting sold on light weight hiking. I've always been like a maximalist. Yeah. And then in my defense I'm like, well, I used to live out of a backpack. I like know all about carrying weight many many miles. I was 25 when I lived out of a backpack I am. There's that meme from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, "I'm a full 30 or 40 years old and I don't need this anymore." Yeah. Okay, okay. Pat 35:44 Join the future. Margaret 35:45 So you would overall suggest that lighter pack weight and trail runners might be a safer method than making sure that you carry everything that would be in a Dungeons and Dragons adventuring pack? Pat 35:59 Yeah, um, honestly, you know, people aren't used to usually carrying like 40 pounds on their back. Like, it's not something humans normally do on a day-to-day basis. Like 20 is like not that much different. And most people can move pretty much the same way if they've got 20. But with 40, you're like, you're lumbering. Much more prone to the trips and falls and not being able to place your feet quickly and nicely. So...But, okay, ultimately, it's, you know, there is a trade off of like you're carrying less stuff, probably less robust stuff, you're relying on doubling things up, multi-use stuff. So that's kind of like...It's a trade off. Margaret 36:48 No, and that's really interesting to me because like what we were talking about earlier about people taking care of each other in the backwoods, I was thinking about how camping and hiking and outdoor stuff, in a way, is like making a hobby out of a little apocalypse. You're going somewhere where you can only rely on what's around you, the people around you, and the stuff that you've brought, right. And so that leads me towards my like, vaguely maximalist...Like what I do now, is that like, my pack is a weird lightweight maximalism. I like still want...Like, I carry P-cord, right? And that's like not in an ultralight hike pack. But, I'm also not throug-hhiking. So I'm kind of like, whatever. Pat 37:39 Who cares? Margaret 37:42 But I don't carry like 50 foot of climb line, you know? And like, I'm not set to repel. I could repel in an emergency with my fucking p-cord. And it would be bad idea, but I would do it if I had to, right. Pat 37:56 Terrifying. Margaret 37:57 Yeah, no, I would double it up and then be terrified. Don't do...No one should listen to me. That's why I have experts on. Pat 38:04 Don't ever do that. [Laughing] Margaret 38:07 Okay, got it. All right. Everyone makes sure to repel with P chord. If you're not, you're not ultralight. So. Okay, so I expected the answer to be like, "What goes wrong in the back country?" I expected it to be like, people aren't prepared, right? Because I have this like, tendency to think like, "Preparedness!" and like... But what you're saying is that it's a different kind of prepared. People are overestimating their capacity rather than running into a problem that they don't have the wand of magic missiles that can solve or whatever. Pat 38:47 Most of the issues we see are not solved by some like gizmo that you carry. It's usually like your preparedness, your like physical ability, things like that, you know. Some little tool in your pack, like for the most part isn't going to prevent the issues that we see. Margaret 39:10 Right? Yeah. But sometimes they're fun. Like a walkie talkie. Pat 39:15 Oh, yeah, they're great. Margaret 39:22 Okay, okay. So while we're...Is most of what you're doing like day-to-day hanging out at a back country office or the office of...What do you do in your day-to-day? I should just ask that. Pat 39:39 So like about half of my days, I am behind the desk in the front country just chatting with people, pointing out day hikes. I issue permits for backpacking things like that. And I have my, I always got my SAR [Search and rescue] pack there ready in case something pops off that I can quickly go hustle up trail to help with. And then the other half of my time I am in the field, in the back country, hiking around, chatting with folks, making sure that they're not feeding the bears, and I get the point out cool flowers and frogs to people. It's pretty cool. Explore new routes. Try to find shortcuts into places for quick access for search and rescue teams. It's a cool job. Margaret 40:24 Does your back country pack include a full SAR setup? Pat 40:29 It does. Yeah, so I...But a full SAR setup isn't...I should correct that. It does not have a full SAR setup because I don't carry a helmet with me when I'm in the back country. And whenever we're on SAR, we've always got helmets. Margaret 40:46 Like, like the Team Wendy Bump helmets? Pat 40:48 Yeah, like climbing helmets because we're often like, doing off trail stuff in the dark in weird weather and they were getting way too many search and rescue personnel getting like head injuries. And the last thing you want out there is to like bonk your head on a tree. You know, head injuries bleed a lot. They're not usually scary, but like a cut on your forehead is like...looks scary. And so it's just too much to deal with in the back country. So we got to wear helmets, even when we're hiking for SAR. It's kind of silly. Margaret 41:20 So all hikers should wear helmets at all times. [Joking tone] Pat 41:23 Yes, that's what I'm saying. Margaret 41:25 Cool. Maximalism, that's what you're here to promote. So, how heavy is your back country pack? Pat 41:36 Yeah, um, I actually got it loaded up right here because I'm heading out after this. But it is...Right now. It's probably about 25 pounds-ish. And that's loaded for three days with overnight gear, food, extra SAR stuff. SAR stuff isn't that much more in addition. It's just a little bit more robust things. Like I carry a bunch of like hand warmers. I carry just extra radio batteries, a big heavy duty like tarp emergency blanket, and then just enough layers where I can like stand outside all night long and not need shelter. Other than that, eye pro, ear pro, gloves. [Eye and ear protection] Not much different that you really need. Any like specialized equipment is coming to you. Or you would start out from the trailhead with it. Margaret 42:36 I see. So it's not like you're carrying the larger first-aid kit? Pat 42:41 No, I mean, I've got a decent sized firstaid kit, but most of the time my first-aid kit is for me. And when I'm treating, when I'm helping someone, I'm using their first-aid kit, and I've got some extra stuff for like bigger injuries. But for the most part, I'm like if you're injured on the trail, I'm finding your first-aid kit and I'm going through that first. So it there's like a cool specialized band-aid that you like, make sure that you put that in your first-aid kit. Margaret 43:15 Okay, everyone needs a full suture kit. And everyone needs at least three Sam splints. [Joking tone] Pat 43:25 Sam splints are great, but they're just so big. Margaret 43:28 I know, they're never in my pack and I always sort of wish it was, but it never is. It doesn't...Even my maximalism doesn't put my Sam split in my my pack, but I'm not like a medic. Pat 43:41 It's funny you mentioned that suture kit. I actually have a story about someone carrying a suture kit in the wilderness and it working out well. Margaret 43:49 Oh, okay. [Surprised] Pat 43:50 They...It was in Boy Scouts and we were out hiking and one of the adults with us was a dentist and like way maximalist over packed. He had like an 85 pound pack, but he had a full suture kit. And lo and behold, someone fell and like gashed their knee open like incredibly deep. It was like a big bleed. There he was, sewing right up on trail. Margaret 44:13 Hell yeah. Pat 44:14 it was pretty cool. But I don't know if it was worth all of that extra weight. I mean, it was I guess but... Margaret 44:21 Yeah. I am so...I love talking to people about this because I'm so torn between my...like I mean the main pack that I carry, I just go day hiking most of the time right now and car camping. Currently, I used to basically backpack for a...not a living, but you know I lived out of a backpack, right? Pat 44:44 You're a professional backpacker. Margaret 44:47 Yeah. And now I just have like a day hiking pack and it has, you know, it probably has more stuff than I need, but I'm not pushing myself super hard on how long I'm hiking. I have a dog with me who provides a natural limit into how much I can hike. I can't push myself too hard. I actually don't go out too much in the summer, frankly, because my dog does not like the heat. He is a cold weather dog who loves the snow. I have bad news for him about the coming world. But, I am a little bit maximalist. And so I try. I'm trying so hard to pare it down. And it's so hard. But okay. All right. So....Oh, I have so much more I want to ask you about SAR. Do you know much...Like do you all ever work with volunteers when you do SAR? Like, do you have like...Okay, so most of the SAR calls you get are like someone like calls in and it's like, "I fell. My ankles fucked. I can't walk home," and whether it's someone on a switchback in the front country, or whether they're 20 miles in or whatever, do you like? Like, how often is it? It was...I mean, I don't know, it's almost like...I mean I'm not going to put this in the title, so it's not clickbait. But like, how often is it like, "Oh, shit, we have to get there in time, someone's dying, or like, you find corpses or all the gnarly intense stuff? Margaret 46:21 Okay. So, only hike with a helicopter. Bring a helicopter with you in your maximalist pack. [Dry joking] Pat 46:21 Usually...usually every day, there's something small happening. Small meaning like, "Oh, someone twisted their ankle a quarter mile trail from the visitor center." Every...it's usually probably three or four every summer, big ones, that have a big outcome, like where it ropes in a lot of folks and ends up being a kind of a big incident. Usually at three or four. But they can also resolve incredibly quickly too. So you can have a major thing that is from the time of knowing about, it's within an hour, it's completely resolved. You know, if you have a helicopter around and someone's like impaled with an ice axe or something like that, we can quickly get them out to a hospital like within an hour if we have if we have a rush. Yeah. Pat 47:27 Yes. Bring a helicopter. [Dry joking] Margaret 47:33 Okay, and then okay, so I want to ask--I guess I asked a version of this--but it's like okay, so you're mostly saying like, bring electrolytes and don't push yourself too hard. Are there other things that people like get wrong or even sort of get right about about backpacking or about just like spending a bunch of time in the outdoors whether it's day hikes or not? Pat 47:56 Yeah, I think what people can get wrong is that like tunnel focus on the destination of like, "I have to get here because Alltrails says that's a cool hike. And it says it's moderate. So I have to do it." That's the same light vein of thinking of like people pushing themselves. Where people get right is folks usually have like their ten essentials like people usually have like a backpack, and like a water bottle, and some way to treat water, or something like that. Most folks these days have like the navigation. They've got Alltrails on their phone. They've got ways to get away like get around. So we don't see too many folks getting lost these days, at least in my current park, which is kind of nice. Margaret 48:44 Yeah that's cool. Because I only read...Like I read some article about how the ski slopes have like...Local cops near a ski slope have stopped responding to the like Apple Watch "This person fell." Pat 49:00 Oh, gosh. Margaret 49:01 Because there's like something about skiing that sets it off on your watch or something, you know? Pat 49:09 Wow. Margaret 49:10 And so I like have mostly read about the like, here's how technology is like, making some things like more complicated and worse, but it makes sense to me that...Yeah, I don't know. It's easy to...I don't get lost anymore. My phone tells me where to go. I mean the closest I've come right as you you go hiking and you're like, "Shit, I didn't charge my phone enough," or like or I always assume that in my day pack, I have a spare battery. And then like one day I was like, "I apparently didn't bring my battery in my pack," you know? So I died. No, I clearly didn't. But no, it's cool to hear that people are getting lost less. And even I think that that also even applies to the like outdoors as mini apocalypse type thing, is that it helps to like know that there's certain...I mean, obviously we rely on certain technologies that may or may not work in different situations, right? Like if we're entirely reliant on cell service and cell service is no longer available or whatever. I am trying to think of what the, what the other thing is...I feel like there's...Okay, well, one, I want to ask you what water filter you use, what water treatment system you use? Pat 50:34 I use a Sawyer. Sawyer Squeeze. Put it right on my little water bottle. I like literally have my pack right here. Margaret 50:44 Yeah, no, I got really excited when you said that because I...I like, I make fun of how like preppers always, like, nerd out about gear. But it's just impossible not to. If you get involved in a hobby, or an interest, at some point, you're going to be like, "But what did you use?" Like, you know? So...But having a way to do it. Yeah, like Sawyer Squeeze...Sawyer is what I use when I lived off grid at the beginning of the pandemic and needed to filter all my water. Pat 51:16 They're great. They're cheap. Can buy them in any outdoor store. Kind of nice. Margaret 51:24 Yeah. All right. The sad question. Maybe the answer isn't sad. How have you seen, working at one place for 10 years...I assume...Whatever. I think you've been there for 10 years. Pat 51:36 I've worked in two different parks. But yeah, ten years. Margaret 51:39 Okay. How has climate change affected? Like you see the outdoors every year? What's been changing? And what are? What are people around you saying and thinking? Like, how seriously are people taking it? And what's that? Pat 51:58 Yeah, we all kind of collectively acknowledged that, especially like the group of seasonals that are like that I'm like working with, we all kind of acknowledge that, like, "Yeah, we get to be frontline watching these places go through the changes for, you know, climate change. We're going to be like, documenting these in our patrol reports of like, how the snow melt is different from year to year and what the new normals are. And it's kind of a weird, like, yeah, like, somebody's got to document it. And so we're, we're here for that. And it's yeah, it's, it's sad. It's like a collective like, "Oh, shit, we're gonna see this place, these places change. And we're going to, we're going to be documenting that, and recording that, and being that that data collection," at least from like, firsthand accounts, so...You know, it's tough when we're just, you know, we're just little patrol Rangers. We don't have really much power other than just communicating to people. That's one of the things I like to talk about. And I like point out things on a map is like, "Oh, yeah, do you see this, like this glacier was here. And now it's way up here. And it's receding this much every year." Yeah. So we have that power to communicate with people. But it's, it's a tough part of the job. Let's put it like that. Margaret 53:25 Yeah, it...I don't know. Climate grief is a....At some point we need and episode on climate grief. Because it's something that like we all sort of avoid thinking about, even when you're like doing preparedness. Like part of the point of doing preparedness, from my point of view is to like avoid thinking about like how things might go. What have been people's responses, like, do you run across...Are most people....? Because if you hang out on Twitter, anytime someone says, "Hey, this is the hottest day ever. This is a problem." You have like 50 blue checkmarks, who may or may not be real people, being like, "Everything's seasonal, you idiots." Like do you run across those people in like a 50/50 to regular....people who actually understand what's happening. Pat 54:11 No, the vast majority of people that I talk to about that stuff....First off, I'm talking usually to backpackers. So it's usually like a certain crowd of people, and like National Park backpackers as well. There's also like a selective crowd. And so most people are like acknowledge the reality of climate change and recognize like, "Oh my gosh, this is a changing landscape now." Occasionally, though, I get the person that is like, "Oh, climate change. That's...These glaciers, they always grow and shrink. What are you talking about?" And it's, it's a delicate manner, you know, to talk my way out of that one because I'm in uniform and everything. Margaret 54:58 Yeah, you don't just like pull a gun and chase them out of the park? [Joking] Pat 55:04 That'd be nice. I'd be like, "What are you doing here? Why are you here? Go away!" No, I have to be friendly and I don't know, show them pictures of wherever glaciers used to be. Margaret 55:16 No, that makes sense. No, it actually, I mean, I actually...I think if anything is gonna get us out of...Well obviously, there's no stopping climate change, right? Like there's mitigating the worst impacts, both in terms of the level of change and how that change affects us. But like, we're well past the like...We're like, actually in it now. You know? But I do think still that like getting people...Like changing people's minds, it still actually matters. And it's still actually...You know, there's this counter inflammation program that's designed to destroy the fucking Earth and we have to counter it. And okay, but I have a non climate change related question. And it's the last one I have on my list and then I'm gonna ask you if you have anything that I should have been asking you. What can folks...You deal with a lot of different people coming in, and you talked about different people overestimating their levels of ability and stuff. And sometimes, when I run across like outdoorsy stuff, there's like this macho culture of like, who can do the most vertical feet? And who can, you know, walk the furthest in the worst climate? It's actually almost cool that the weird macho thing about gear is to have us be lighter instead of heavier. But..which is the opposite of what I what I would expect it, you know? But, how can people of different levels of ability...like one of the things I like about...We didn't really talk about the problems at the Park Service. I think that that's just a thing? Pat 57:06 That's a whole conversation. Margaret 57:11 Right? You know, the Park Service comes from a very bad place. And so does all of the United States, right? And... Pat 57:19 Yes. Margaret 57:19 You know, like, you talked earlier about like private versus public. And, you know, and it's like, is giving yuppies a safe taste of the wilderness for a private company like more ethical than working for the federal government? I don't actually think so. I think everyone has to do different things in order to survive. But...Well, actually, I guess I'm now bringing that up. If you have anything you want to say about that we could talk about. You don't have to. Pat 57:38 I don't mind. Yeah, it's it's tough. You know, I love these places. It's not my land, though. You know, I'm on indigenous land. This is where I work. And it's, it is a tough aspect to kind of try to reconcile because I love my job. And these, I'm happy these places are protected. But also, like, I don't know, if...Like, you know, I'm white. Like, I don't know, if I should be the person in the back country telling people not to step on the wildflowers, you know? I'll do it because the job is there. And honestly, I couldn't imagine doing something else. But if that land got returned to the indigenous tribes, tomorrow, I would be all for it. You know, it's, it's at the edge. It's a tough one to reconcile. And they're starting to make moves. You know, just the other day, got to go through all of our little laminated maps and sharpie out one of the names for a lake because it used to be a really offensive name for Indigenous women. And now, it's not that anymore. It's like a local indigenous word for grandmother. And it's like, "Wonderful! I get to cross this out and write in the new name on this map." Like, that's fun. But also, you know, it's still not the tribe's land anymore. So, I don't know. It's tough. Margaret 57:44 No, it makes sense. And I mean, when I think about the National Park Service, I think about a lot of really negative things and then I also think about how like as when I was doing forest defense, the National Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture and national forests exist federally not to be protected but to be harvested. And any like people use, or nature use that--and people are nature but you know--that comes along the way is like a byproduct. Pat 59:05 Yeah. Margaret 59:09 You know? And yeah, that's the...It's weird because the park services are like, parts of them and more some of them more than others, are like theme park for nature. And there's like all kinds of complicated things. But it's also like...I remember at one point, I was in Yosemite, and I was like on a raised walkway to go see some falls. And I'm like, "You know, it fucking rules that these falls are wheelchair accessible." Like, that's cool. And it's interesting to me that there are people working to try and figure out how to balance, access and preservation. And so even though it comes from the....I don't know, whatever. I'm not trying to be like, "The park service is great," right? But it's just like, it's fucking complicated. Pat 1:00:44 Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, you make the parks really accessible and then that degrades the quality of the resource in the that solitude in that wilderness aspects if there's a parking lot with 1000 cars, or you know, 200 people on the trail. But also, like, it's great that people can get out to these places. That is the...Yeah, give a park ranger a beer and ask them, "How do you balance access versus preservation?" and that's a that's a whole podcast series right there. Margaret 1:01:18 Yeah, no, I would totally listen to a podcast series that both talks about the weird fucked up place that the parks come from, and like the way that they do all this bad stuff, but then also, they're complicated, like...I remember being in a national park run cave and this little kid was like, "Why can't we go in that part of the cave?" And the Ranger was like, "Because there's a bat sleeping." And the kid was like, "Well, what if I want to go in anyway?" And the Ranger looks at this like little kid and is like, "If it's between you and the bat, the bat gets the cave and you don't." Like, watching the entitlement strip away from this little kid's eyes and I'm like, yeah...I don't know. Well, okay, and this actually gets into the thing that I was going to ask as my question, which is, um, what can people different levels of ability do? Right? If you try to get involved in, in, not necessarily working outdoors but like, engaging with the outdoors and you're not like, totally able to just immediately--I mean, I can't fucking hike like I used to. I'm not trying to fucking go...Like, I walk seven miles and up 2000 feet, and I'm like, "I am fucking done." And my dog is like, "We are done." You know? But like, what can people do? Like...how make more accessible? Pat 1:02:44 The best way to really get started if you don't have that experience and really want to avoid that pitfall of like, "I'm going to do this hike because I saw a guide book that says I should do this hike. So I've got to do it." It's just be completely flexible with not getting to whatever the destination of the hike is, you know? Choose something small to start off with, you know, and only do a couple miles, and set a time to like turn around. Say like, "I want to hike for two hours and turn around in one hour," regardless of if you get to the destination or not. And really try to change your mindset from the point of the hike being to get to the viewpoint or to get to the cool cave or whatever, to being the point of the hike is to like stop and see the little things along the way. Some of favorite days are like cloudy, rainy days because I'm not looking for views on those days. I'm like, focused down on like how the rain and the water makes the moss look different or changes the coloration of the wood grain and things like that. You know, rocks look a lot cooler in crummy weather. So I think like changing your mindset to like, "I'm not hiking to get somewhere. I'm hiking to be in nature," can really change like your mentality of, "I don't have to push myself to get to that place. Because just around the corner, there might be a cool thing to look at," and like really sit and explore and like look closely. Margaret 1:04:19 Yeah, okay. Pat 1:04:20 That's my advice is to treat it like a walk in the woods before a trek. And you'll eventually get better and more fit and more experience to be able to push on and do more extreme stuff. Margaret 1:04:36 I like that a lot. Okay, well, that's, that's my questions. Is there like a question you wish I had asked you or like final thoughts or anything? Pat 1:04:44 No, I think the biggest thing is that folks should get out and hike and push yourself, but have a backup plan and make sure that you don't get in over your head. Drink your electrolytes. It's hot. Margaret 1:05:06 Yeah. What electrolyte do you rep? What do you pack? Pat 1:05:12 The gold standard is the that Liquid IV brand, just because it's like four times as much electrolytes than the other stuff. It's also really expensive. So like the knockoff store brand version of that, I've found it like a Safeway has been...It's been okay. Yeah, okay. Margaret 1:05:34 Alright. Well, everyone go outside, or don't, but probably do. See the world while it's still around? I gotta admit, that's been a big part of it for me is I'm like, "But I haven't seen everywhere." Pat 1:05:53 Yeah, I want to see it before that doesn't happen there anymore. Yeah, it's tough. Go touch really faraway grass. Margaret 1:06:08 Yeah. Well, do you have anything that you want to promote or push? Or do you want people to follow you on the internet or support any given program or thing? Pat 1:06:20 I wish I had thought about this before recording, but I don't...I don't like having an online presence. So don't try to find me online. You can't. But yeah, go for a hike. And touch some grass that's really far away. That's my advice. That's what I'm gonna plug. Margaret 1:06:41 Hell yeah. Margaret 1:06:47 Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell people about it. Word of mouth is the main way that podcasts spread. The other way is algorithmically. And, you can influence those algorithms by liking and subscribing and commenting and doing all that fucking bullshit that makes me very sad to have to point out is true. You can also support making this podcast happen. Several people make--well, not their living. It doesn't don't come out well enough for that. But several people make some part of their living by making this happen, including our audio engineer and our transcriptionist. And we really appreciate your support. And you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness, because this is published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is an anarchist publishing collective that puts out podcasts, and zines, and books, and all kinds of stuff. In particular, I want to thank Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalix, Janice & O'dell, Paige, Aly, Paparouna, Milicia, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Always Hoss the Dog. And there's like new names on that list since the last time I read that and that makes me really happy. There's a lot that we are trying to do as a collective that your support allows us to do and it will be cool. And you'll be glad. Maybe. I hope so. Anyway, good luck with the apocalypse. I hope you all are building resilient communities and/or learning how to make hard tack. Maybe both. Talk to you soon. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Episode Summary On This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke, Margaret, and Inmn talk about a lot of really bad things that happened in July, from the intensifying heat, to floods, to medicine shortages, to Antarctica's ice melting, to grain shortages, to terrifying new laws. But also, there are some hopeful things that happened, and as always the group finds ways to stay positive and for communities to prepare for what's to come. Host Info Brooke can be found on Twitter or Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke. Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery. Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript This Month in the Apocalypse: July, 2023 Margaret 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Margaret. Now one of you says, "Hi." Brooke 00:22 Hi, Margaret. Margaret 00:26 No, you say "Hi," like you say who you are. Brooke 00:29 Oh, hi, who I am. Brooke. Inmn 00:32 And I'm Inmn. Brooke 00:34 Did I do good? Was that good? Alright, Margaret 00:37 Y'all did great. I'm joined by Brooke and Inmn today for another episode of This Month in the Apocalypse. And this is an extra special extra apocalypsey month that we're going to be talking about because we're talking about July, 2023, the hottest month in the history of humans being alive. Unless you're listening to this in August, in which case maybe you're like, "July that was some fucking amateur hour shit." But for now, hear us at the end of July, hottest month ever. And you know what else is hot is the Channel Zero Network, the network of anarchists podcasts. There's nothing wrong with this comparison. We are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcast and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Da da da da duh daa [Humming a melody] Inmn 02:12 And we're back. And to start off today, we're going to talk a little bit about global temperatures and the heatwave that we are in the middle of experiencing right now. So this July was quite possibly the hottest--or I mean, definitely the hottest month on record in, you know, a recorded historical way--and possibly one of the hottest months on the planet in a very long time. So I live in Arizona, and in Phoenix, the ground temperature...There were daily record breaks in the in the heat where the hottest day on record was...it was 117 degrees. And then the next day it was 118 degrees. And then the next day, it was 119 degrees. Margaret 03:09 They won't even make it to that 20. Like come on. Just give us the round number. Brooke 03:15 No, no, don't. Stay less. Margaret 03:19 Oh, interesting. Okay. [dryly sarcastic] Inmn 03:21 There is I learned, a really horrifying thing that happens at 120 degrees. So I really hope that it doesn't get to 120 degrees. Do y'all know what happens when the ground temperature reaches 120 degrees in the sun? Margaret 03:35 Does Mothra break out of the cracked Earth and fight Godzilla? Inmn 03:41 Sort of. Propane tanks spontaneously combust. Margaret 03:49 That's bad. Brooke 03:51 Oh my gosh, Inmn 03:53 It's really bad. So in actuality, the temperature did reach 120 degrees because an enormous propane tank near the Sky Harbor International Airport exploded along with a bunch of like five gallon ones and it caused this huge fire. A bunch of cars were destroyed. And yeah, which you know, is by itself not like some huge world ending thing. But if you live anywhere where it might be 120 degrees on the ground, possibly in Arizona, take your propane tanks out of the sun because they might explode. Margaret 04:35 Normally, I would say don't put them inside because in general that's a really bad idea. But, it's probably better than like popcorn kernels in your yard. Inmn 04:46 Yeah, yeah. And I say this for people who like, you know, if you have a grill outside that just has the propane tank attached to it and it's not in the shade or anything. Um then, yeah, it could just explode and destroy your house. Brooke 05:06 But only if it's 120 degrees. If you're at 119, you're perfectly safe. Leave those propane tanks just right out there in the middle of the sun on the asphalt, right? [sarcastically] Inmn 05:16 No, don't do that. [laughing] Margaret 05:18 Place them near the following people who run the following companies. Brooke 05:29 Do you want to know about the the average overall temperatures in the month of July in Phoenix while we're talking about Phoenix? Margaret 05:36 I mean, no, but tell us anyway. Brooke 05:39 Okay, for the month of July, in Phoenix, the average high temperature, daily high temperature, was 114 degrees. And here's the really fun one, the average low temperature like the coldest it got was 90 degrees. Margaret 05:56 There was also a new low warm record. There was a night in Phoenix where it didn't get below 97 degrees. Inmn 06:04 Oh, golly. Margaret 06:06 Which is too hot. Inmn 06:08 It is too hot. Margaret 06:09 And, I didn't write this number down because I forgot. Massive..Like there was also a record for the most electricity the city of Phoenix has ever drawn because everyone was running their air conditioners, for good reasons. This is not a "Don't run your air conditioners," this is more of a, "There is a limit to what the grid can handle." Inmn 06:31 Yeah. And just to, since we're hyper focusing on Phoenix, in the last, I think--I don't think this was last month-- but in the last couple of months, the governor did halt a lot of new housing developments that were getting built due to concerns over the future of water in Phoenix. Margaret 06:57 And it seems like there's two ways to read that. There is the like...I am notably on the record of feeling like people who are...That Arizona is in trouble. I am on the record for that. And I don't want to get into specifics. But the more kind way to read the lack of expansion is that it was less like these places are out of water and more that, I believe in Arizona, or in the Phoenix metro area or something, you have to be able to prove that there will be water access for the next 100 years in order to build. And so it is a little bit less like these places are out of water and more like, "We cannot guarantee this water." I think that's the kinder way...No, not the kinder...That is one way to read that. The other is that Arizona is in fucking trouble. Inmn 07:55 Yeah, and you know, it stems from these like larger issues of the Colorado River having these like all time lows in water flow, and just due to Phoenix being this like huge, sprawling place that is like under constant development. Like I think it's where...Outside of Phoenix is where Bill Gates is trying to build some like new smart future city. Which is really confusing. Margaret 08:27 Has fucking Elon Musk gotten into him or something? Inmn 08:29 Yeah, like it's supposed to be this like huge self contained smart city that's outside of...it's in the larger Phoenix area, but like is separated from Phoenix. And my first thing that I thought was like, "Why? There's no...Where are you going to get water from?" Which I guess if you're really...If you're Bill Gates, you maybe have to worry less about where your water's coming from. But... Margaret 08:57 I mean, eventually. Other heat stuff from this month, let's see, we had...I was looking at a bunch of maps of where all of this heatwave stuff hit right, and overall, the hardest hit places were the coastal south, the southwest, of course--Phoenix gets a lot of the attention and for good reason--the coastal South got an awful lot, and then actually in terms of it being way hotter than usual, it also affected the lower and middle Midwest. The Pacific Northwest and central Appalachia--aka the two best places in the country based on the general disbursement of the three people on this call--were the least affected. And last weekend--sorry last week--thousands of people across the US went to the hospital for heat related illnesses. Only six states have laws protecting workers that say things like "You actually can't make people work when it's too hot out or they'll die." Only six states actually have laws that are like, "You have to provide like shade, and rest, and water for people working outside." I read a heartbreaking story about a young man who died laying cable trying to send money to his mother and work his way through school and all that shit. The federal government is working on a law about, "Maybe you shouldn't let people work where it kills them in the heat." That law has not..They've been working on it for years and nothing has happened. Yep. Got any more heat heat or move on to wildfire? Brooke 10:41 Capitalism is so ridiculous. The fact that we have to come along and legislate like, "Hey, maybe don't work people to death in the heat." Like that shouldn't have to be a law that anyone has to have because we are fucking human beings. And yeah, we should treat each other better. Yeah, yeah, sorry. It's upsetting. So, the United States is not the only place that's super hot. Europe's going through another massive heatwave like they did last summer. And last summer's heatwave, you may recall from the news, was breaking record temperatures and was quite severe. And one report I read said something like 60,000 Europeans died last year due to the heatwave. Their average temperatures are currently much higher than they were last summer even...or are getting to high temperatures earlier in the summer than they did last year. That's what I really mean to say. And it's affecting lots of things. For instance, Greece is experiencing wildfires on a massive scale, which I guess they're somewhat prone to wildfires already like the Pacific Northwest. But, the amount of acreage burning right now is two and a half times the average that they've experienced this time of year. Particularly the island of Rhodes, which is a Greece Island. Greek. Greek island. [The island] has had to evacuate tens of thousands of people off the island due to the wildfires. There's something like 90,000 acres of wildfires currently burning in Greece, which is a really significant size of wildfire. And it's weird how much perspective shifts on this, especially being from somewhere like the Pacific Northwest where we're kind of prone to wildfires. And if we get one that's like 10,000-20,000 acres, I'm like, "Meh [disapprovingly]." I mean, that's huge. But at the same time, in the last few years, we've had ones that are at 90,000-100,000 acres. So, you know, perspective shifts on what a severe wildfire is, but 90,000 acres is just massive. So yeah. Greece is...Greece is not having a good time with the fires right now. Margaret 13:03 And then, right before we hit record [on the episode], I was reading about how today, there's a third 300,000 person city in Sicily, whose name I forgot to write down, that is largely without water or electricity today because the 46 degree Celsius which I want to say is like 118 [Fahrenheit], or something like that, melted asphalt and fucked up all the infrastructure underneath. So no more electricity and water in a town of 300,000, that is also like experiencing a ton of wildfire. Apparently like the city is also surrounded by wildfire, but maybe that was a different city nearby. Brooke 13:45 You know when you say that, Margaret, it does...I distinctly remember us talking last summer about the heatwave and how a lot of European towns, countries, aren't built for the high heats and things were melting like that. Like the asphalt and stuff. Margaret 13:59 And then, yeah, I remember. And you had England, you had like the tarmac, which is the British word for asphalt, I think. I don't know. They don't do anything. Right. And then, speaking of places that Europe hasn't done right, Northern Africa is also completely fucked by the current heatwave. And in particular, wildfires. Algerian wildfires are fucking everything up. Like, as I'm...Like, as we're recording, unfortunately, they'll probably get worse by the time this comes out. Algerian wildfires, so far, have killed at least 38 people, including at least 10 soldiers who were doing wildland fire duty. More than 1,500 people have been evacuated from 97 fires around that country. Tunisia is also having some fucking times because, actually, it turns out that national borders are nonsense. And Algiers, the city of Algiers, had a fun 120 degree day. This I believe last week. And two years ago, Algerian wildfires killed 65 people in one week, including, a lot of those people are the people who are like, bravely fighting those wildfires. And I don't know, those people are fucking heroes and martyrs to climate change. Brooke 15:17 Is the heat causing other kinds of problems in the world, Margaret? Margaret 15:21 You mean the Antarctic ice that isn't there? Well hear me out. It's actually a solution because we're all going to move to Antarctica, which will be green. And there won't be any Lovecraftian temples with strange writing...in the mountains of madness. Someone's gonna yell at me about Lovecraft. Anyway. Antarctica is like having some real interesting times. I don't know if people have seen the news this week. Every now and then like climate change people like post the deviation from norms charts, where the like waves go up and down and stuff. And this year's, they're just not. Usually they're like, "Check it out. This wave is a little bit different. It's pushing the envelope. It's got some new records." There's no Antarctic ice. That's an exaggeration. That's hyperbole. Antarctic ice is lower than it's possible for people to easily conceptualize right now. It's winter in Antarctica right now. It's...When we talk about the hottest year on record, and we're like, "Oh, well, it's summer. Of course, it's hot, right?" Where I'm at, the hottest year in the fucking world, half of the world is in winter right now. Right? But, sea temperatures are rising, which actually are going to...Fuck I forgot to write this down..I was reading about right beforehand. There's a new study saying that the Gulf Stream, the thing that like cycles the fucking goddamn waters of the world, will likely stop somewhere between 2025 and 2100, with the average guess being about 2050 but as soon as two years from now. Which will have all kinds of changes. Ironically, one of them is that Europe might get colder. It's that movie, The Day After Tomorrow, is based on this concept of the Gulf streams disappearing. Brooke 17:10 Oh, that movie. Margaret 17:11 Yeah. That beautiful, wonderful movie. I barely remember it. We snuck into the theater. And I was like too paranoid the whole time. I was like afraid we'd get caught because we were like, really obviously dirty punks. And it was just like, so obvious. But, we didn't get caught. And I don't really remember much about that movie besides it's cold, and that people are willing to walk a very long way for their family, which is very sweet. So this event is, this is a historic low of ice following the previous all time lows of 2016, 2017, and 2022. But this is a five to six sigma event. Five to six--not like cool guys who'd go their own way--but five to six standard deviations away from a normal event, which is a meaningless thing. I had to spend like 20 minutes reading about what the fuck that means to try and explain it to people because you're just like, "Oh, it's a lot, right?" It's a lot, a lot. Statistically, a four sigma event, four standards of probability standard deviation thing, is now you're talking about something that is functionally 100%. Right? This is now so far...Basically, it's like imagine stuff is on a bell curve. The far edges of it are the sigma, are the standard deviations away from the norm, the norm is the center. When you get to the...When you get to like four, you're at functionally 100% of things don't don't fall into this, right? Or something that happens functionally 0% of the time, it's not actually 0% of the time. So it is...but it's often seen as statistically insignificant. For example, if you were to flip a coin 100 times, the odds of that coming up heads all 100 times is one in 3.5 million. That is a five sigma event. Right? The standard deviation, this the amount of Antarctic ice that isn't there this winter when it's supposed to be coming back, is more than that. It is about twice that. It is a one in 7.5 million year event, which isn't to say this happened 7.5 million years ago. It didn't. That's the odds of it happening randomly any given year. So it's really funny because scientists have to be very exact, which is part of what causes a lot of like climate change confusion, because if you ask a scientist like, "Is this man made?" a scientist has to be like, "We cannot to 100% certainty, certain that," right? Because they're like, because they're not certain, and science is based on an uncertainty. And so like a lot of the articles they're like, "Look, technically we're not sure. It's just really, really unlikely that it isn't." And I remember--one time I asked one of my science minded doctor friends--I was like, "What are the odds I am going to have the following health problem that is too personal for me to explain on-air?" He was like, "Look, that is possible. That is a possible risk vector. It's about as likely as you getting eaten by a shark, today, in Asheville, North Carolina." Which is to say, it was possible but not worth fucking worrying about. And this is the opposite of that. This is worth fucking worrying about. And ice decrease, of course, obviously, it makes the water get bigger, right, because it's not in ice form. But also, ice reflects back an awful lot of sunlight. There is a chance that the ice will be back next year. There is a chance that it won't. I was not able to find...I was able to find scientists being like, "We don't fucking know." I was not able to find scientists giving statistics. This is...I think..So I'm gonna go on a rant. I warned everyone--not you all the listeners--but I warned my co-host that I'm gonna go on a little bit of a rant today. Brooke 20:58 And that was it. Margaret 20:59 No, no, we're just getting started. Sorry. Brooke 21:05 Let me buckle in for this. We buckle in for this. Okay, yeah, ready to go. Margaret 21:07 Alright. So I think...I try really hard to not be like, the-sky-is-falling girl, right? I talk about preparedness and possible bad futures. Semi professional--actually, I don't get paid for this--but like, I do it a lot. It's like one of the main things. It's like, what I do with my time. And I try really hard to be like, "Look, we don't know. Don't put all your eggs into your savings for the when-you're-80 basket. But also don't put none of them in, right? Because the future is unknowable. And that is true. I think that this month marks a turning point where we can no longer in good conscience, talk about climate change as a possibility or even as like a certainty that's a little bit away. And we don't know how bad it's going to be. I think we have to talk about things from the point of view that this is happening. And this is really bad. And this is going to stay bad no matter what we do. That is not to say we can't do anything. And that's not to say we can't mitigate it. But I think that we need to just like...I know I will at least have to stop hedging some of what I say. And I think that this month is the most clear that we are in a really bad time--I don't wanna say "apocalypse," because it's a sort of a meaningless word--since we've been having the show, with the possible exception of March, 2020. And so I just like really quickly--and we'll get back to our regularly scheduled talking about some stuff--I want to talk about some of the stuff we can do really quickly and like what I think is really useful. And overall, what I believe is useful, is that we need to start working together in communities to build bottom-up solutions, not necessarily just to climate change--although that's true--but to preparing for and weathering the impacts of climate change. I don't believe that top-down solutions are coming. Prove me wrong government handler assigned to listen to this show. Prove me fucking wrong. I will turn in my anarchy card if you fucking stop global warming. Maybe. I might thank you and then still try to end you. But... Brooke 23:25 Weather. Weathering climate change. Margaret 23:31 I believe that working to create small, medium, and large scale communities that work from the bottom-up, that are horizontally organized, that work in federation with other groups to organize on as large of scale as is necessary, is our best bet going forward for how we can mitigate the worst effects of this, both in terms of our survivability, and in terms of having a culture that directly confronts fossil fuel infrastructure, that directly confronts, you know, the people who are doing this, right? There's that old, I think Utah Phillips quote, "The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And the people who are doing the killing have names and addresses." Brooke 24:22 I'm gonna put that on my wall. Margaret 24:24 I believe that we can build the kind of resilient communities that can allow more of us to live as long and healthy lives as is possible, considering what's happening. And I believe that the time to start thinking about that and doing that is now. I think that it is time for people to talk to their neighbors. It is time for people to work at like whatever your local community center is that is most aligned to your values. If you don't have one, fucking start one, and start having skill shares. Start prioritizing this. I think that people should make their decisions about where they want to live based on climate right now, and not just move away from the bad--obviously, that's going to happen--but also like where you want to live when/if the structures that currently provide for us are no longer able to do so. Like for myself, I didn't pick "I'm moving to where I think is going to be the least impacted by climate change." I moved to where my family is. Because that is a priority that I will make above my own personal safety every time, you know. But everyone's going to make those decisions differently. And then the other final thing is that I think that we have this problem where Al Gore government type people are like, "This is your fault because you didn't use fluorescent light bulbs, you used incandescent light bulbs," right? [Brooke laughs] To date myself to like 20 years ago when that was like a way that we were trying to get blamed as individuals, like, "If you don't recycle then like the world's gonna end." And it's like, "Oh, the world's ending. It's clearly because I didn't recycle enough." Like one, recycling is mostly fake. Although it shouldn't be. And I think it's still good practice for people to think about their waste, right? But, and so individual like so...[tails of and start over] So there's this problem where corporations are like, "Ah, individuals, that's the solution. We don't have to change anything," right. But we can accidentally fall on the other side of that. And we can say like, "Oh, well, since this isn't my fault. And my individual choices don't necessarily change things. I'm off the hook." And we the way we talk about the hook is wrong. There is a difference between fault and responsibility. It is not your fault, dear listener, that this is happening. Right? It is not your fault that you once got drunk and threw a car battery in the ocean. I have no idea why everyone uses throwing car batteries into the ocean as the example of horrible pollution that individuals can do. But it like comes up all the time. So, if you...[interrupted] Brooke 26:58 I have ever heard that example before. Margaret 27:00 Then you have different DMs than me. When you wanna talk about climate change, people are like, "I'm gonna throw my car battery into the ocean." I don't get it. If someone wants to explain it to me, you can send it to me by my DMs and I won't look. And but there is a difference between the fault and the responsibility. It is not your fault, right? But it is our--not your--our responsibility because no one else is going to fucking do it. Rather, the people whose fault it is, are not going to fucking do it. And we need to figure out how to do this because we're running out of time. And I think that...It's essentially liberalism in a bad sense. It is both liberalism to blame the individual, right? But it's also liberalism to be like, "Well, it's not my fault. So I don't have to do anything about it," because like, when you're being oppressed, right, like...For example, I, to use myself as an example as like a trans person, right? It is like not my fault that people hate trans people. But like, I don't want to be oppressed. So, I need to look at doing that. I need to look at solving my problems even though it isn't my fault. And it is a delicate balance to walk when we talk about this because we need to not blame victims. But we need, as collectively the billions of victims of climate change, to figure out our own power and work our way out of this. I think that's the end of my rant. Brooke 28:31 Actually, I really appreciate that, Margaret, especially the end part there, just because like I, in my own personal life, have been struggling with a little bit of that lately, especially with the heat this summer, and that feeling like, you know, there's nothing I can do, this isn't my fault, so fuck it, I want to turn down my AC some more or something like that. And I haven't, but that like the mentality that I'm struggling with sometimes right now. So I really appreciate you saying that. Margaret 28:59 Yeah, and like use your AC. Like, I mean when there's like...Sometimes you get these like warnings--there are individual structures that are currently top-down that I don't think are bad--like when they send out a text being like, "Look, if everyone could kind of lay off the power a little bit so we don't all have brownouts, that would be really good." Like you know, that's when we can all like pitch in. It sucks that we're all expected to pitch in while they still fucking clear cut, and drill, and burn everything in the goddamn world. Inmn 29:29 Yeah, it's like the...Like this came up in Texas. Was it last year or like the year before with like the huge power outages in Texas? They were due to...There was like a huge heat wave. And the thing, one of the things that the grid collapsing was blamed on was people cranking their ACs because it was like 115 degrees outside. And which, you know, probably probably the ACs are not actually what caused the grid to collapse. It's like, the normal strain of the grid is supporting so many unnecessary and ridiculous things. But like, people were asked to turn off their air conditioners, right, during a heatwave so that the grid wouldn't collapse because the grid is not managed well and it's owned by private companies and they don't manage it well. And so the grid collapsed. And then people were like...People were getting heat sick. People were dying. And it's like, we can rely on things like ACs to cool ourselves. But we actually can't because of the mismanagement of utilities and stuff like that could be what causes grids to collapse, not because it is the individual's like fault, but that there's all this other mismanagement and strain from Capitalism, etc. Margaret 30:57 Totally. And like, I think it's a good example too where, at the same time, it is not the people who want to turn up their AC's fault, right? But I want to be alive more than I want to not be at fault, right? So it's like, if I...[interrupted] Inmn 31:15 Just because it's not our fault, it still might cause it. Margaret 31:20 It's our problem. You know, someone else caused a problem. Like, the person who's hitting me with a stick, it is their fault that they are hitting me with a stick, but they're clearly not going to stop. And the AC example is like, if I get a text that's like, "Turn down your AC or everyone's power is going to go out. I'm going to turn down my AC because I don't want everyone's power to go out." And it's not because I'm like--I mean, it is a good like, we're all pitching in together to not die thing, right--but it's also like...It's hard, because it then becomes easy to blame people to be like, "Oh, you didn't turn down your AC. So it's your fault." It's like, "No, it's the people who fucking..." I mean, Texas is that brilliant example, where it's like cut off from the rest of America's grid because it's like, "We got to be Texas." And that's like, why it's so--and that and all the privatization--is why it's so precarious. And so we just build resiliency. It's like, I don't want to be pure fault. I want to be alive. And so like, I want to say like, "Okay, what will I do to keep cool if my AC goes out?" You know? Anyway. Brooke 32:29 Can I point out that it's weird how we talk about AC because we talk about turning down the AC, which makes me think like turning down power. But actually, what we mean is turning down temperature. Yeah. And then I say, when I say like, turn up the AC, that means make it, I'm making it hot--in my mind, in my mind--if I turn up the AC. Anyway. Yeah, it's difficult. Yeah. Floods! Margaret 32:54 All right. Margaret 32:56 That would be really bad if there's more than one disaster at once. Can't wildfires be enough? Or have there been floods? Inmn 33:02 There have also been floods. And I'm going to focus in on a couple of kind of specific floods that have happened this month in the United States. But there is this...It points to this larger problem and some of the things that I learned after digging into the floods in Vermont, kind of highlight some key issues that I think are worth exploring. So, the flood in Vermont that happened on like July 10th or 11th or something, where essentially two whole months of rain fell in two days. There was like nine inches of rain, which, I was curious how much water that is because, you know, we hear like, "Oh, one inch of rain, nine inches of rain." Like what does that mean? And nine inches of rain over like, over 20,000 square miles--which I don't actually know how big Vermont is, but this is the statistic that I looked up--is like two and a half not trillion but the next number, the next magnitude. Quadrillion? Margaret 34:24 I don't really know what's above a trillion off the top my head. Inmn 34:26 Yeah, it's like two and a half quadrillion gallons of water, you know. It's so...I hope I don't get at'd about this math, but... Margaret 34:35 No, it is quadrillion. That is the...Well, you at least got the word right. I looked at that. Inmn 34:41 Great, great, great. Yeah, it's like...It's that much water. So like when we think about like, "Oh, one inch of rain is falling." Like one inch of rain falling in one day as a lot. You know, like where I used to live flooded over an inch and a half of rain, you know? And so to put that in perspective, nine inches of rain fell in Vermont over a two day period. And in the first 24 hours, the river--and I am not going to pronounce this right--the Winooski River, it rose 19 feet in 24 hours. And then on the next day, in a couple hours, it rose to 40 feet. And they're measuring this on a 170 foot dam. And are there any guesses as to how high the water rose on that dam? Brooke 35:41 70 foot damn. Water had nine inches.... Margaret 35:47 I'm just gonna be wrong. Seven feet. Brooke 35:50 Oh, I was gonna guess like 50 feet. Margaret 35:51 Yeah, I just figured I'd be wrong. Inmn 35:54 It rose 169 feet. Margaret 35:58 Nice. I mean... Inmn 36:02 It came within one foot of the dam breaching, which it like, this dam sits over Montpelier, which is like one of the only cities in Vermont, and so the dam came within inches of breaching and... Margaret 36:16 Oh, jeez, it would have flooded the city. Inmn 36:19 Yes, it would have. Like, this already huge catastrophe would have turned into something several magnitudes higher if the dam had been breached. Brooke 36:31 As an indigenous woman. I'm like, "Fuck you, dams." But at the same time, like I don't want them to break like that and kill a bunch of people. Inmn 36:40 Yeah, and yeah. And so the dam did not breach. There was only one recorded death in the incident. Margaret 36:50 A lot better than Pennsylvania did this month for floods in terms of deaths. Brooke 36:55 But, wait, what happened Pennsylvania? Inmn 36:56 Wait, wait, sorry. I got more. I got more. So, one of the other big concerns, and I think this ties in well to kind of preparedness, is locally, there were a lot of people worried about a rather large houseless population that was turned out of COVID housing, like a COVID housing program that ended in June, and so in July, there were like, a lot more houseless people kicking around areas--and houseless people, as some may know, love to congregate around like rivers and stuff because those are usually pretty chill places to hang out and like access resources and stuff. And so like, one thing that's noted is that like a lot of people experiencing housing insecurity tend to congregate in the most flood prone areas because those are the areas available to people to congregate. And so one cool thing that did happen is there was this shelter network, that when they heard about the severe storms, they immediately went and started doing outreach to people living by the river. And actually, they were able to do in evacuation of people on a bus. The bus actually ended up getting caught in floodwaters and was destroyed. But the people on it were not harmed. And people were able to like evacuate by other means. But yeah, just as like a wonderful thing you can do if you think your area might experience a flood is doing outreach to like houseless communities who might not know about the danger and might not have the resources to escape it themselves. Yeah. One of the other big things was that in Vermont--this isn't quite as true as in a lot of other places, but it's something specific to areas like Vermont, or like West Virginia, or like other mountainous areas--like they have that phrase like, "Well, it's only three miles as the crow flies, but it's going to take an hour and a half to get there on the windy mountainous roads." Well, Vermont has a lot of windy mountainous roads, and almost all of those roads became completely undriveable because of roads washing out, mudslides, and these like huge floodwaters. And so the populations of Vermont were largely left trapped in their homes unable to escape if things had gotten worse. Like people described being completely cut off on these little, you know, mini islands in floodwaters. And yeah, just things to think about if you live in these, if you live in mountainous areas, is like having these kind of early warnings to leave places because as much as you might be able to fortify your house as like a bunker for preparedness, if you get trapped in it and it floods then it didn't save your life. Brooke 40:14 That goes back to what you [Margaret] were saying about community building earlier. Margaret 40:20 As someone who often lives in the mountains, and currently lives in the mountains, and this is like...Mountains flash flood really bad. And a lot of mountainous areas, like in the mountains, people often build in the hollers in the lower areas between, you know, in the valleys between different pieces of the mountain and stuff. But...And usually it's like the town actually floods sometimes more than some of the rural houses outside of town. Not necessarily, right. But it's like, because you put all...If you have a bunch of houses, you put them in the low lying area. But, if you've got like two houses, you can put them up on the ridge. And there's like unfortunately...If you're randomly being like, "Man, I want to move to the mountains," you should think about buying one of the houses and that's up on a hill instead of down in the valley for that reason. And then the other weird random thing that I was like reading about is that apparently in a lot of flood prone places--this isn't like...this isn't gonna save everyone--but people put an axe in their attic because one of the ways that a lot of people die in floods is that they go higher and higher in their house. And so then, as it gets up to their second floor, or whatever the fuck, they then go into their attic. But if you go into your attic, you can't get out in a flood. And so some people keep an axe in their attic. I don't know whether that's...I'm reading about it in a book, but in a fiction book, you know? Inmn 41:43 Yeah. Yeah, that is...that is weirdly relatable. Like me and Margaret used to live somewhere that was prone to flooding. And I remember the first time that we got a really bad flood, like this was when our eight foot wide stream turned into like a 70 foot wide moving current of water that was up to your chest... Margaret 42:10 And bringing all kinds of shit down from... Inmn 42:14 Yeah, and yeah, there's like trees floating by. And there's all these, you know, tiny houses and structures and stuff, and nobody there was all that concerned about it I think, except for me. Like, we were running around trying to save tools, and equipment, and like stuff like that, and make sure the cars were up on the highest ground possible. And I was like, "We have to leave because we might not be able to if we wait too long." And like, thankfully, I was wrong. But like it worried me how unworried people were about the flood in this like mountainous area that we could have easily become trapped in. Margaret 42:59 I was a little bit like, "My house was on the hill." So I went down to help. Why don't we put our houses on the hill, which is not very community minded of me. Inmn 43:12 No, that's fine. But sorry, just to speak to one other thing real quick. So another thing to think about with flooding is that--and I've never thought about this until I was reading about it to prepare for this--but if you grow food, either in a garden or on a farm water, like when there's these huge floods--especially when the wastewater management facility gets like flooded out like it did in Vermont--all of the water that is in this flood water is very dirty. It's filled with like...It's filled with raw sewage, like a stupid amount of raw sewage. It's filled with like oil, and like contaminants, and like chemicals, and like anything that was swept up in the floodwaters. And so, if you grow food and your garden gets flooded out, you can't eat any of that food, even if it's like root vegetables Like pretty much like all fruit and vegetables that get contaminated by floodwater are like completely inedible and like unsafe to eat. So, it's something that, you know, in a local area where a flood happens, it can cause a lot of problems for people and then like globally, it can also cause huge problems with food insecurity. Yeah. And, talking about another food insecurity thing that's connected to floods, so, in Ukraine this past month, a dam, like one of the largest water reservoirs in Europe, was blown up. And you know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, the Russians did it because they're in control of it." And the Russians are like, "We didn't do it, but the dam did mysteriously blow up". And it... Margaret 45:10 Derek Jensen was running...Someone in a raccoon sweater was seen running from the crime, screaming about how trans people are bad. Inmn 45:17 Yeah. And so like this...the water in Kherson rose 20 feet, and it destroyed all of these like irrigation systems. And it is expected to affect 600,000 hectares of farmland that produce over 4 million tons of grain and a huge amount of the world's vegetable oil. Margaret 45:48 Okay, I was reading about how there's a vegetable oil shortage is expected. But I didn't get to the why. That explains that. Inmn 45:55 Because a dam exploded in Ukraine. Margaret 45:59 Because of the war that is currently localized but will eventually spread. Inmn 46:04 Brooke, are there other things going on with food insecurity? Brooke 46:07 Never. But maybe. I don't think I have anything on food insecurity. Inmn 46:14 Oh, oh, sorry, I read the notes wrong. Margaret 46:16 I made these notes ahead of time for everyone. And I put them in the chat. But then they lost all their--just so everyone knows behind the scenes and all the cool insider information--I put in the chat an agenda of what we're going to talk about, but it lost all of the formatting when I pasted it in. So, it's basically incomprehensible. But, I will tell you about medication insecurity. Ehh? That will make everyone happy. Because that's not one of the...Okay, just to be clear, like medication is obviously one of the things that people will get the most concerned about when it comes to preparedness and stuff, right? Because of the way that medication is gate kept--sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad reasons--It is not necessarily available to people to do anything sort of like stockpiling and things like that, right? And we rely on a lot of medications for very good reasons in our society. Tornado Alley. You're like, "Oh, obviously it's related to tornadoes." Tornado Alley is the alley...It's the the part of the US where tornadoes are sort of expected and normal, as if they're not fucking terrifying. Jesus Christ. There's very few natural disasters I'm more like... Because I feel like a tornado could just be behind your back and you wouldn't know. It's like a horror movie. You're driving down the road, and then everything turns green, and then all of a sudden there's this death machine just like, "Baaaah!" [makes a 'scaring someone noise] and it's coming at you--and it makes exactly that noises and sticks his tongue out. And people are like, not excited about tornadoes. At least I'm not. Brooke 46:19 And they're green and have tongues. Margaret 47:35 Yeah, well, the sky does turn green sometimes before a tornado. Anyway, so Tornado Alley is expanding thanks to climate change is the point of this. And there's been more and more bad tornadoes further east than there used to be. A tornado in Rocky Mount North Carolina, which is outside of previous Tornado Alley, at least according to the article I read. I've been in North Carolina when there have been tornadoes, but they weren't like, "This is totally normal." It was like kind of a bad thing. Well, do you know that there was one 1.4 million square foot Pfizer a manufacturing plant that was responsible for 25% of all of Pfizer's medications that it sends out to hospitals? Brooke 48:24 Nope. Margaret 48:27 Did you know that one tornado destroyed the entire fucking thing this month? A tornado of 150 mile per hour wind speeds--I wrote down the like classification, but then I deleted it because I didn't feel like looking at all the classifications and trying to explain it...A tornado. It was a bad tornado. And it fucked this thing up. It destroyed 50,000 pallets of medication. And more specifically than that, it stopped the ability for this plant to produce the medication. It was an injectable sterile medication place, so, a lot of anesthetics, so things that make you unconscious, and I think also some antibiotics, and other stuff that goes into like IVs, and stuff was destroyed and the capacity for Pfizer to make more of it was destroyed. The one silver lining is that the article used to have it wrong and say, "25% of the US's injectable medication." That was only Pfizer's percent, which is probably a lot still. Pfizer's a really fucking big name in medication. So medication shortages were already, before this, the worst that they've been in 10 years. In 2014 there were medication shortages about as bad as now. At the end of June, again before the tornado, there were 309 specific like named drug shortages in the United States. A lot of them are related to like chemotherapy and all kinds of stuff. So that's bad. Brooke 49:52 I didn't realize the medication shortage was worse now than it was like during the height of the pandemic and the end of it because I feel like you don't hear about it. Margaret 50:02 Yeah, I mean, well the pandemics over. So no one has to worry about anything anymore. [said sarcastically] I feel like this is the kind of thing where it's like, it's so hard because it's like...Well, it's like, as we talked with...Like, This Month in the Apocalypse is just a fuck ton of bad shit, right? Like and we're talking about or like some posi like little silver lining, like I saw cute monkey, kind of style stories, you know. Like, he's on roller skates. And, and it's like, it's hard to spin fucking this shit. It's hard to spin. Too much of our...I don't even want to tell them they're making drugs wrong. I don't know how to fucking make insulin, you know. But, obviously, there's some problems with centralization when there's tornadoes around, which I guess was like my Mothra-Godzilla thing I was talking about earlier. And I don't know, I mean...but it's the kind of thing that I wish we stayed more aware of. And I think it's the kind of thing that people mostly don't want to think about because we like to imagine that even if we'd go into debt to do so, if bad things happen, the existing system will be there for us. And, I don't want to knock the people who work really goddamn hard to make the existing system work, and the nurses, and doctors, and all the rest of the staff who work endlessly to make this shit happen. And so Pfizer is trying to move that manufacturing to other plants. But they haven't been able to yet. And they're basically like, "Look, it's not actually easy. You would be talking about moving..." None of the employees were hurt is the one upside of all of it. There's 2000 employees at that plant. And that's all I got. Besides...Are we ready for headlines like do do do [makes type write noise] headline time? Inmn 51:49 I think Brooke has something about a murder wall. Brooke 51:52 I know, but I don't want to talk about it anymore. Because it's so depressing. I want to talk about happy headlines. Margaret 51:59 Should we just shout out that there's a fucking murder wall and it's bad. Brooke 52:04 The great state of Texas. Yeah, that wonderful place, and it's a dictator du jour, Greg Abbott, decided to roll out some new measures in order to try and stop immigration across the border. So they got a whole bunch of buoys. Buoys are things that float in the water that are like wrecking ball size, which I actually don't know how big a wrecking ball is, but I assume they're massive, Margaret 52:31 Bigger than a breadbox. Brooke 52:38 Like the size of a car maybe? I actually don't know. Somebody, somebody comment and tell us how big wrecking balls are. I don't know big. Anyway, they got a shit ton of them and floated them out into the Rio Grande River and anchored them to the riverbed to basically create a floating wall in the middle of the river that's currently about 1000 feet long and make it longer. And then they also went through...As part of that project, there's lots of little islands that are on the Rio, and they tend to have grasses, and shrub brushes, and stuff like that. And they had the the Texas military go in and basically bulldoze everything off the top of the islands. So, they're just like dirt mounds in the middle of the river, and also, Margaret 53:25 Some World War I shit is what's happening. Brooke 53:27 Yeah, yeah, they bulldozed down the riverbanks on the United States side so that they could put up barbed wire along sections of the river there to, which you know, the river is at its low part right now because we're in summer, so I'm sure that taking away all of the vegetation and root systems won't have any problems with the waters rise later in the year. [Sarcastically] Inmn 53:53 None at all. [Also sarcastically] Margaret 53:54 Well, you know, it's just worth the trade off to economically destroy....Even if even if I was a fucking capitalist, I would be against the border wall. Like what the fuck? Like? Brooke 54:04 Yeah, it's...There's several things that are wrong with it besides just the really obvious, you know, ethical wrongness of the whole fucking thing. Margaret 54:14 The murderness. Brooke 54:14 And, you know, as an indigenous person, I have really complicated feelings about that because borders and migration anyway, but like it was the state of Texas that did it. They didn't talk to the local cities and municipalities about the work that they were doing. So they just, you know, rolled up destroying this shit. And then it's also technically international waters because it's a border between two countries and they didn't talk to Mexico about it either or the federal government for that matter. So you know, Mexico is threatening to to take action against Texas, and the federal government has sued the state of Texas, and local governments are super pissed off. So fun on so many levels. Margaret 54:59 I'm glad people are pissed off about it. So that's the one...I'm glad that murder wall has been a step too far for even some governments. Inmn 55:09 Yeah, I mean, it's like, Arizona did a similar thing last year before the governor...Like when the governor realized that he was not going to get reelected, He started building this giant shipping container wall along the border. And he was actually ordered by the federal government to stop doing it. And he just didn't. And there were...But there were all these like interesting things that happened where there were local sheriffs and stuff who were enforcing that law against the governor, like the people building the wall. And then there were all these wild disputes about it, where it became very like a the US government versus the US government like situation. Margaret 55:57 I don't hate that. I've played enough Risk. I know that when my enemies are fighting, it's time to sit back. Inmn 56:04 Yeah, but a really cool thing that was able to happen was that a lot of people were, because it was not a legal thing, were able to stage some pretty large scale defense against the area by going and occupying the area to stop construction, but no one was going to arrest them because it wasn't legal for them to be building it. Brooke 56:25 Oh, this river section also hosts a large annual kayak race that now can't happen because the buoys are in the way, so like a Republican kayaker guy who's like, you know, super into anti-immigration, is like, "But now that, you know, we can't do our kayak race here, I'm super pissed off about it." So like, even more reasons that people are angry about this that are ridiculous, but hey, let's, you know, let's be angry. Margaret 56:55 Yeah. Inmn 56:56 Yeah, golly. Is it time for headlines? Margaret 57:00 It's time for headlines. Is that our wait, we got to come up with....[Brooke makes type write noise] Yeah, there we go. Alright. What I got. Okay, you know how there's this thing that like COVID and the flu and shit were all hitting and then there was also RSV, which like mostly comes up for kids, and adults...In adults who aren't old. I don't know how to phrase this. Without, okay, whatever. In some people, it just manifests as a cold and other people it is really bad, right? RSV I don't even know what it stands for. I didn't write down enough. This is my supposed to be my headlines. And now I'm contextualizing...They have an injectable antibody that the FDA just approved called Beyfortus. And it's the first time that there has been a good specific thing that is like a preventative for RSV that has become available. And so that's promising. I'm curious to see how that goes. Because I know RSV was like fucking over a lot of people I know. Apparently, cement is one of the biggest causes of climate change and damage. It is the 12th biggest cause of climate change. It beats out air travel, apparently. And it...And cement overall puts out more carbon than the entire country of India does. One company is working on a carbon negative cement that is just like manufactured very different from Portland cement. Portland cement is like the main way that people make cement, which both involves a lot of burning of carbon in order to create it because you need kilns. And also then it is slowly off gassing carbon for like, a very long time with the concrete. And so they're working on, and they've proven it to be like structurally sound, and who knows whether this will act...[interrupts self] I know that it won't see widespread adoption because there's no incentive for it because capitalism is the economic system that runs the world. But someone has invented a concrete that actually absorbs carbon. It just sort of passively brings it on instead of putting it out. Brooke 59:15 I don't know if this is the same project, but I worked for a nonprofit a couple of years ago, or right before the start of the pandemic, that was doing research into this very thing. And they were putting really tiny amounts of wood fiber, cellulose, into cement and they were...They weren't doing it. They were funding, because it was a charity organization, they were funding the testing of this. And I wonder if this is maybe the next stage of that or even the same company. Margaret 59:41 This company is called Brimstone, which is funny. They might be evil. They might not be. But, they're named Brimstone and we don't live in a boring world. And then my final little posi note is that some agricultural workers have been like...Well, some agricultural workers have been dying in the heat. And so another agricultural woman, agricultural worker woman, developed a cooling vest and has just been doing a lot of studies about like, just specific ways about like, how people who are working outside and are stuck working outside beat the heat with these hot new ideas. But it's like...It's one of those things where it's like, well, what if people just didn't have to do this fun work outside in the goddamn heat? But, it's still good for us to develop these systems. And I love that it is coming from people who do this work themselves. So, I think it's like kind of a swamp cooler style vest. It's like...And they just did a lot of studies about like, if a worker drinks water, versus a worker drinks electrolytes, the person who drinks electrolytes is going to have a substantially lower risk of hospitalization and heatstroke. And then even like, wearing a wet bandanna makes a huge difference. Obviously, like anything that relies on swamp cooling is going to be different based on your humidity levels. If you're in the southeast, it's going to be way harder to use passive cooling from water than if you live in the southwest. But that's what I got. Anyone else? De de deet deet, de de deet deet [making typewriter noises] Hot off the Wire. Inmn 1:01:22 I have a bunch of headlines. They're not good. One is interesting. Margaret 1:01:30 You're fired. I'm not actually capable of doing that. Okay. Inmn 1:01:36 In the great state of Florida this month, it was declared by Rick DeSantis that middle schoolers will be taught about the personal benefits that slavery had for individuals as part of DeSantis' "War on Wokeness." He also was quoted as saying that he was really upset about the ways that--and he meant this in how Democrats are doing it--are criminalizing political differences, which is interesting because he's like the forefront of criminalizing political differences. Margaret 1:02:16 So, it's almost like it's illegal to advocate the eradication of people based on their race. Inmn 1:02:21 Yeah. And he passed some wild laws in Florida this month. This one, this one is...Like by itself, you might hear it and you're like, "Lack of sympathy," but like contextualizing it with other stuff that Rick DeSantis is doing is important. So, he passed a law that allowed for the death penalty in child rape convictions despite the Supreme Court having ruled otherwise. Which, you know, when I hear that I'm like, this is another Roe v. Wade situation of states like trying to get laws passed in the hopes that when federal rulings are overturned that they have these laws on the books. Margaret 1:03:03 Yeah, I mean, this is so that he can kill gay people and trans people. Inmn 1:03:06 Yeah, so then interestingly, in Texas last month, a lesbian couple was arrested for kissing at a mini golf course. And they were charged with "sexual harassment of a minor." So like, if we contextualize these things together and DeSantis' like war on trans people, we can sort of see where this is going is that he does probably want to make it legal to enforce the death penalty against trans people. He also signed a bill to end unanimous jury requirements in death penalty sentences. Margaret 1:03:46 Sick. Inmn 1:03:48 Now you just need an 8-4 in favor, which is a huge, huge spread. You know? Yeah, this is gonna go great. He was also involved in a car accident this morning in Tennessee and he was...not hurt. Margaret 1:04:08 Dammit. That's fucked up. Inmn 1:04:10 Right. In some other fun headlines, Robert Kennedy claimed at a press conference that COVID may have been ethnically targeted to spare the Jews in a absolutely absurd brand of conspiracy theories against Jewish people. Student debt forgiveness: people will be expected to pay back their refunded payments according to the student debt forgiveness being repealed. Margaret 1:04:47 Have they met the blood and the stone? The ability to withdraw one from the other... Inmn 1:04:57 Supreme Court ruling was like kind of...Not like overturned but an old ruling was over...like, not used in a case right now around stalking, where it's going to be a lot easier for people who are stalking people, especially on the internet, to not get in trouble for it. And it kind of boils down to this idea there that the more deluded the stalker, the more protected the stalking will be. Margaret 1:05:31 It's like pleading insanity, kind of? Inmn 1:05:34 Yeah. Being like, "This person was unaware of the impacts that it could have had on this person." Margaret 1:05:40 Classic thing that should inform the law. Inmn 1:05:48 It's weirdly situated like that to protect people like at protests, who might scream like, like, "I'm gonna fucking kill so-and-so," you know, in like a heightened state, and then that being weighed against that that person probably didn't mean that. But, it being used like that to protect people threatening to kill people on the internet while stalking them is, you know, clearly, clearly these things aren't the same thing. Brooke 1:06:25 Laws are bad. Inmn 1:06:26 Puberty blockers in England were disallowed on a large scale outside of exceptional cases. So like, trans kids in Europe will no longer be allowed to access puberty blockers. Margaret 1:06:43 You mean, the UK. Technically no longer Europe, thanks to their right wing move to separate themselves. Yes, does not make it any better for the UK kids. I'm sorry. I'm being a pedant. I apologize. Brooke 1:06:54 Yay, terf Island. Inmn 1:06:59 Putin signed new legislation on like this past Monday, I think, which marked the final step in outlawing gender affirming procedures. So basically, you can't get any gender affirming, like surgical procedures in Russia any more. And the bill was unanimously approved by the Russian Parliament, which bans any medical interventions aimed at changing the sex of a person as well as changing any one's gender marker on their documents. The only exception will be for medical intervention to treat congenital anomalies, which I think probably refers to like, assigning intersex people genders. It also annuls marriages in which one person has changed their gender and bars, transgender people from becoming foster or adoptive parents. And yeah, so Russia is even more terrifying. Margaret 1:08:03 Starting to not like Russia. Brooke 1:08:07 Starting to? Margaret 1:08:08 I don't know. Putin starting to seem like kind of a...I'm starting to develop a negative impression. [sarcastically] Inmn 1:08:17 Yeah. And, you know, just to give people in the United States an idea of where we're headed, this was all in the name of "Upholding traditional family values." That was the main cause for this legislation. Brooke 1:08:31 TFV. TFV. Inmn 1:08:34 And my last little headlines, which I wanted to connect to talking about heat wave stuff earlier, a nine year old migrant died after having seizures due to heat related illness in Arizona. This past month, there were at least 10 recorded migrant deaths in southern Arizona due to heat related complications. But, Border Patrol claims to have rescued 45 people from the scorching heat of the desert. But interestingly, in Ajo, Arizona, which is like western Arizona, there was a...It was like 114 degrees outside and border patrol had 50 migrants in custody who they were keeping in an outdoor chain-link pen with like, no shade or anything. So, they have the people that they rescued then put in life threatening conditions, Margaret 1:09:40 Starting to not like the United States Government either. Yeah, starting to feel on par with Russian governments. I know you're supposed to pick one or the other party. Yeah, it's bad. Everything's bad. Inmn 1:09:56 Really bad. And I want to get more into the southwest and border patrol and this issue another time. But...Stuff's really bad right now. So yeah, that's my headlines. Brooke 1:10:11 Margaret, you're the optimistic one today. What do we do? What do we do in this terrible world, Margaret 1:10:17 We build resilient communities, network them together, teach each other things, try to limit the amount of gatekeeping we do within those communities. We value conflict resolution as high as we can. We value survival skills and more traditional forms of preparedness, and we support a diversity of actions against all of the negative things that are happening in the world, whether or not we believe those actions are strategic. We support any action that falls within our bounds of ethics, including people who are like annoying church liberals, or people who are like taking things too far with the gasoline and the timers made out of kitchen timers. We support the wide range of it and we try to live our lives as best we can. We recognize that winning is not a condition. It's not like a win state, right? There's not a state in which we win. But instead, there's a reason we say, "Winning at life." We don't say, "Won at life." We say that we are in the process of winning. And when we fight, and when we build, and when we love one another we win. We live the best lives that we can despite everything that's happening and we work really hard to help other people live the best lives that they can. Was that a rhetorical question? I'm not sure. Brooke 1:11:34 No, I do feel a little bit...No, honestly, I feel a little bit better now. I really do. Love wins. We win with love. Love and care. And the thing that goes on if me being me as a nurturing, loving person. Inmn 1:11:50 In living like we're preparing for the world to die, should we also live like the Empire could be dying? Margaret 1:12:02 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, capitalism has proved a sturdy beast, but it can certainly be slain. And if anything can slay it, it is the nightmare that is coming that we will all figure out how to come together to handle. Yay. Good. That a good end note? Anyone got more headlines? Brooke 1:12:34 No? Well, no. I'm too sad. Margaret 1:12:42 Well, if you enjoyed this podcast, you can tell your friends about it. And you can more than that, get together with your friends and talk about what the fuck we're gonna do, right? Because it is a good idea for us to get together and talk about what we're going to do because you're talking heads on the radio podcast land can't tell you what to do. You. You and your friends decide what risks are appropriate based on what's happening, and what you all want to do with the time that is available to you. But, one of the things you can do with the time that's available too, is support this podcast by supporting us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. We put out new features every month. And we have multiple podcasts, including one called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and one called Anarcho Geek Power Hour, and one called Live Like the World is Dying, which you probably know is the one that you're listening to right now if you made it this far. And if you become one of ou