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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 1, 2022 51:08

Wondering how to earn more points towards travel? Trying to decide which travel credit card is the best fit for your family? This week we chat with points and miles expert Jennifer Yellin about the best travel credit cards for families. Kim and Tamara also talk about the changing travel restrictions in Europe, the Caribbean, and cruises. Note that since this podcast was recorded, Italy has also dropped its testing requirement for fully vaccinated travelers. About Jennifer Yellin Jennifer Yellin is the founder of Deals We Like, where she helps her readers travel on a deal. She writes about everything travel related, such as travel credit cards, travel rewards (points and miles) and travel destinations. Jennifer is also a freelance writer for CNN Underscored and The Points Guy where she writes on similar travel topics. Jennifer loves traveling to beach destinations and embracing ski trips with her family. How to Pick the Best Travel Credit Card for your Family For family travel, you need to book early if you are looking to use points since they are popular times to travel and you need more seats than if you are traveling solo When choosing a credit card to start using points there are some that are very easy to redeem points, like Capital One which allows you to earn points and then use the points eraser to erase the travel charge on your credit card. Others, like Chase Ultimate Rewards, you transfer your points to airline or hotel programs to use your points. You can get better value that way but it takes a little more work There are also airline or hotel specific cards that provide certain perks, like a free night certificate or free baggage, that can be valuable if you are able to fully utilize it Also look at the annual fees and make sure you are getting more value than you are paying in annual fees The Hyatt card will help you earn Globalist status, which will provide nice perks like room upgrades. See our episode about the best hotel loyalty programs Southwest is a popular card for Southwest fliers that can earn the Companion Pass (see our episode about flying families for free) The Chase Sapphire Preferred is a great card but wait to sign up until they have a very good sign up bonus. Points transfer easily on a one-to-one basis and you can even book through their travel portal. They have a partnership with Southwest and OneWorld Alliance members like American and British Airways If you transfer 1-to-1 to Hyatt, you will get more value out of your points then transferring to Marriott If you do decide to have multiple cards, make a note of which cards give more points for specific categories (e.g. gas, travel, supermarket) and put a piece of tape or label on each card and write on it which category to use that card for If you have a specific trip in mind, find out what hotel you want to stay at and then look at signing up for that hotel brand credit card and sign up when there is a good bonus (unless a card like Chase has a better welcome offer) You can also sign up for credit cards in you and your partner's name or a personal and business card to get multiple sign up offers if you have a specific trip in mind When you want to use points for a family, it can be hard to find enough free seats for everyone. Just keep in mind that if you book separately you may end up separated if they reshuffle the flights but you can try to get the itineraries linked to avoid this If you have status, you probably want to buy a ticket for the person with status and use points for the rest Expert Flyer is a membership website that helps you find special award availability For international airlines, it also helps to use an award booking service to help find flights to a specific destination, these usually cost about $150-200. Usually you don't pay unless you can book You can use Point.me (used to be Juicy Miles) where you put in your itinerary and the system will provide you with options that you can book and that is a less expensive service because it is automated When you transfer points, it can take 24-48 hours for the points to show up in your account and you can't book until they are available. You can Google how long it takes to transfer points between specific programs Once you transfer points from your credit card to an airline or hotel program, you can switch them back to the credit card so be sure you want to use them To earn additional points, sign up for every shopping portal available such as eBates/Rakuten (for cash back or points), some have Chrome Extensions to remind you to purchase through the portal. Most mainstream ecommerce sites will earn you points There are also a lot of sign up bonuses around big shopping weekends Cashbackholic will show you which shopping portals offer the best rates/points offers EV Rewards will also compare for you Always look at the targeted offers that are sent to you from your credit card companies to earn extra points or cash back Buy gift cards through shopping portals, put purchases on credit card and have others pay you back for group dinners, class gifts, etc. Never sign up for a credit card without a sign up offer Southwest currently has a good offer for earning a Southwest Companion Pass Make sure you can always easily meet the minimum spend requirements when signing up for a new card If you are applying for a mortgage or a loan soon, don't apply for a new credit card, but otherwise it won't hurt your credit score Cancel cards when you are no longer getting value, but you can also call and see if you can get a fee waived or reduced If you have applied for 5 or more Chase cards in 24 months, you can't get approved for a new card and Amex offers are usually once in a lifetime but you may be able to get it once they roll off your credit card in seven years or so Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.190] - Kim Tate Stay tuned to find out how you can charge your way to free travel. [00:00:15.450] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We 3 Travel. [00:00:29.890] - Kim Tate Tamara. It's kind of a fun intro today because I feel like we're going to share some happy news for a change that's happening. Do you want to kick us off and start talking about some changes that are happening in the travel space lately? [00:00:41.710] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, just overall, I think everyone feels a whole lot better than they did a month ago, for sure. And I know traffic to my website showing that people are more interested in international travel than they have been, for obvious reasons. But it's just so nice to be on the side of things where it's like things are getting better. [00:00:58.670] - Kim Tate We have good news. Yeah. [00:01:00.680] - Tamara Gruber But as you guys know, we're planning a spring break trip coming up very quickly, and we've been keeping everything crossed that everything goes okay. But we saw just actually, I just saw very recently, I think it was on February 12 that France has lifted their testing requirement to get into the country. So it's just like one of these hurdles that I can check. I can just cross off like, okay, the day before, how am I going to get the test that I need? And is it going to come back in time depending on how things are there or they're going to shut now that things are better, they're closing some testing centers. What's the best way to get this test that they need? So it's just like one of those hurdles that I don't have to go through now. And it's just it's such a relief. And also because Hannah had COVID in early January, I was actually going to get her tested to see if she's still testing positive. Do I need to get the doctor's note and go through that whole thing? And so as restrictions are lifted, it's just so nice to have one less thing that you have to do as you're getting out the door, and then one less thing that could kind of screw up the road. [00:02:11.860] - Tamara Gruber Obviously, you could still get sick, but hopefully you would know that versus like, oh, no, you're actually asymptomatic. Not that we want to be traveling asymptomatically, but you know what I mean? So I'm just encouraged that there are a number of European countries that are lifting their testing requirements at the same time, though, I should say that is for people that are fully vaccinated and different countries have different rules about full vaccination. Like, for example, for France, you need to also be boosted if it's been more than seven months since your second shot or your only shot if you're like me when it was Johnson, Johnson. So you need to follow still those kind of guidelines and all of the rest. But at least on the testing front, it's one thing. So, yeah, so France lifted it. The UK has lifted that, Ireland has lifted it. Spain lifted it. And I've seen that both Portugal and Greece have lifted it for the EU. And so my matter of time before they lift it for the US as well. And part of it might be like the US still has the requirement that people need to test, including US citizens, on entry into the US. [00:03:24.420] - Tamara Gruber So it might be one of those things where it's like, well, if you lift it for us, we'll have it for you kind of thing. But yeah, at least I mean, right now we're still going to have to get tested in France to go into Italy. But at least we know that that's pretty easy to do. Like, there's tons of pharmacies around and it's cheap and readily available and fast turn around. So I'm not as worried about that. And then I actually just ordered some testing kits from EMED, which is what you and I used when we were in Portugal because it's the proctored self testing that is accepted for return to the US. [00:04:00.540] - Kim Tate And it's instant. Yeah, it's really good. [00:04:02.170] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:04:03.870] - Kim Tate That horrible one day window that the US enacted, which I hope they're going to reedit that now that Omicron is calming down because that one day is a big ask. [00:04:13.080] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's definitely and I was worried about like, oh, if we're in Italy, I know I can get tested, but will the turnaround be in time? So I just felt like bringing these along is going to be the easiest scenario. We just do that in the room and we'll be all set. So positive news on my friend. And I know you've been paying attention to some other stuff going on, so you have some positive news, too. [00:04:34.640] - Kim Tate Yeah. Well, we're headed out on a cruise for spring break, and we're getting numerous emails that keep coming in because cruises are really volatile right now with the way they're changing. A lot of them went back into even a lockdown. They canceled a lot of cruises in January. And now I think things are loosening up, and so that's kind of opening up options. And so I think that for cruising, just know that cruising is back. Cruises in general have always been, as we talked about in that episode a while back, they're pretty obsessed with cleanliness and germs because of other things like norovirus that they've had issues with. So just know that cruising is back. And so if that's an option. The other thing that I like about cruising is because we're doing a Caribbean cruise and because you come in and out of a US Port, you are waived from a lot of those testing requirements that if you were just flying directly into a Caribbean Island. So there is some benefit to that. Just know that some of the Caribbean Islands also are editing what they're requiring. And I know that, for example, I believe it's the Bahamas and maybe even Aruba, if you're vaccinated, you no longer have to submit a PCR test. [00:05:41.530] - Kim Tate You can take a rapid test. Of course, it has to be a proven rapid test. You can't just take one of the Amazon ones and take a picture of it. It has to be like the EMED ones that you're talking about. But I think for some travelers, those are way easier than, like you said, making appointments and going in through a drive through or some kind of testing site. And then that stress over. Will I get the results in time, especially if for us out here, the Sundays really throw us off because they don't run the results on Sundays and do the testing. So if you need it, you kind of have to either wait for Monday or you have to go Saturday and hope that process works. So I just know that for us, it's kind of a big thing to keep an eye on. And I do think, like you that things are relaxing, and I think everybody's ready to get back to travel. So I feel like a lot of us traveled over the past year anyways, but it's becoming more accessible for people who maybe don't want the cost or the stress of testing. [00:06:35.070] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, I've talked to a couple of people recently. They were like, oh, I just paid $100 for a test, and then they dropped it the next day. The cost for a family to have to deal with that kind of testing is considerable. It's huge. [00:06:51.000] - Kim Tate Well, our in laws won't come visit us from Canada because they're a family of five and they didn't come last summer because even after the border opened, they can't pay for five test times $150 or whatever. It just was cost prohibitive. [00:07:06.880] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, I like to be an optimist, and it's been hard for a couple of years. And I know things can change and all of that, but it is just nice to see positive news, positive things happening. And I'm excited. I'm excited for where all of our travels are going to take us this year. [00:07:26.130] - Kim Tate I definitely think that it's exciting and I think that it's people I mean, governments are seeing that the travel restrictions and the testing isn't necessarily catching it. It's still spreading like wildfire all throughout the country. I think that's a bigger thing. Like, I'm fully into watching things, but the fact that obviously Omicron moved through multiple countries, it really shows that we kind of all just need to get back to living and do our responsible parts. [00:07:54.940] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, speaking of getting back to living, I think everyone has been thinking of the trips that they want to take. And so we've been trying to have some episodes that addressed some of that, like some of that inspirational dream travel and today we're going to talk to really a credit card expert, and she's going to help us figure out ways to earn our way to those dream trips using credit cards. So I'm very excited to kind of find some new strategies after talking to her today. [00:08:26.090] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. Jennifer is a true expert. So let's get talking to her. [00:08:38.270] - Tamara Gruber We are here this week with Jennifer Yellin. She's a travel and credit card expert, founder of travel site Deals We Like, and a freelance writer for The Points Guy and CNN Underscored. So, Jennifer, I feel a little bit odd to have such an expert here today, but welcome. [00:08:52.970] - Jennifer Yellin Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. [00:08:55.340] - Tamara Gruber Well, we get a lot of questions about credit cards and strategies. And there are always some of our favorite episodes, and people always have different advice. So it's really nice to talk to, like, people with different viewpoints and experience. But before we get into really talking about what credit cards families should be using to earn points, I was hoping you could inspire us a little bit with some of the trips or flights that you've been able to book using miles and points. Sure. [00:09:21.790] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. So this past two years, like many of you, probably has been a little bit of a pause in staying at home. But just more recently, my family was actually able to take our first trip since the Pandemic started to Aruba, and we were able to book that fully on points, utilize our JetBlue points. And with JetBlue, it's really cool that if the flight goes down in price, you can cancel now with your points and rebook it. So I was able to do that a few times and really get that price down really low. Booking with points, even during the Christmas time period, it was pretty awesome. And then we stayed at the Hyatt Regency there right on Palm Beach and used points as well. And my husband actually has global status, which is their top tier status. So we are able to apply a suite upgrade. And we're confirmed into a two bedroom suite. And my kids had their own bunkbed room, which I thought was so cool. [00:10:11.020] - Kim Tate That's amazing. That's definitely like a dream. Good job on that, because I know those suite rewards are kind of difficulties sometimes. I hear they are. [00:10:19.280] - Jennifer Yellin I mean, it wasn't available right away. I had a check online daily, maybe hourly leading up to it. And probably about two weeks before our trip. [00:10:26.930] - Kim Tate It opened up nice. [00:10:28.700] - Jennifer Yellin That was good. [00:10:29.960] - Kim Tate That definitely sounds good. I know Tamara was in Aruba, too, but I think those are the dream trips that everybody thinks about when they can do points on Airlines and hotels. So Unfortunately, I get overwhelmed at that aspect of, like, how to redeem. And so I have a whole bunch of points, but they're all just sitting in my account doing nothing for me. So I had a friend who's in the point space once say to me, what do you hate free money? Because you're not using your points. So I know that that's a good thing when you can use them. [00:10:57.520] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. Family travel, specifically points kind of early because we always are booking during the popular Christmas break, spring break time frame. And that's when everyone books early. So right now I have a bunch of trips planned for December break. Clearly, I'm not taking them all, but booking them right when the war calendar opens up has allowed like a word availability to be booked and it's easier to come by. [00:11:22.660] - Tamara Gruber That's a good tip. [00:11:23.840] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. As long as I can cancel them, I'm good. I probably have like four different trips. [00:11:28.850] - Kim Tate Yeah. It becomes you have to have a spreadsheet to manage it sometimes. [00:11:33.110] - Kim Tate Well, what do you think is some of the so let's start off by talking about what you think some of the criteria is for people to look for when they're choosing a credit card to start earning points because there are a lot of options and I know kind of what I'm thinking and what other people have said. So in your opinion, what should people look at? [00:11:50.580] - Jennifer Yellin I think it kind of depends. There's two types of credit cards out there in the points space. Forget about cash back, but there's those that allow you to easily redeem your points. Like capital One is the first one that comes to mind. You book your flight and you can kind of use your points to wipe away the charge. [00:12:10.730] - Kim Tate Like the eraser or something. [00:12:12.510] - Jennifer Yellin Exactly. Like at a very easy rate. You don't have to worry about award availability. Like you were saying that you don't want to deal with if the flight is available. The hotel is available on points. As long as you can book it with cash, you can use your points. Then there's one like the Chase Ultimate Rewards, which kind of has a few different programs, actually. But those are where you can redeem your points to various hotel and airline programs by transferring your points. But that takes kind of some motivation, I guess it takes some effort and work and you need to kind of learn the programs, but then you could actually get something of better value. So it kind of depends on what your personality is. [00:12:53.540] - Kim Tate Right. And then, of course, there's also, like specific airline credit cards, like Delta or I have an Alaska card just because it gives me some perks. But it's funny because on Alaska I still book with my Amex because Alaska pays three times, but Amex pays five times. So it's kind of funny how you have to think about that stuff. [00:13:10.330] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. Other things I look for is I try to keep my annual fees low because I have a decent amount of credit cards. But are there perks that come with a credit card, like a free night certificate? So like Hyatt offers a free night certificate. It's capped at a category four, but I always find that that helps pay for the annual fee and actually allows me to come out ahead. So are there any of those other bonuses or perks that you'll utilize? [00:13:35.210] - Tamara Gruber I used to have a Marriott card, and I felt like sometimes I ended up not always using that voucher for the free night because then you would look at it and when I wanted to book, it was only like $100, $150. And you're like, oh, I'm going to save it for something else. And then it never ended up happening with all these things you definitely have to stay on top of make sure you're using the perks and the bonuses that you get. Right. [00:13:58.270] - Jennifer Yellin Definitely. Because if not, you could be spending a good amount on just fees where you're really not worth it. [00:14:04.160] - Tamara Gruber I mean, I totally admit that we've had the Capital One venture card for years and years, and the Holy Racer thing is just super simple. [00:14:12.670] - Kim Tate Yeah. That's what Paul likes. He loves that one. Just for the ease of it. [00:14:16.910] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. And we've also been using a higher credit card. And even though we're not getting the best value every time you make a purchase, it helps us earn global status, which, as I've mentioned before, is like their top tier status. So by earning that status, because every time you spend, I think $5,000 on the card, you get two nights towards status. So that, combined with staying at hotels, allows us to use that and then kind of get these awesome perks. So you kind of got to look at the pros and cons of every car and see what works best for you. Whenever anyone asks me, my simple answer sometimes is it depends. [00:14:51.780] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. We talked to who is Ed Pizza, right. A few months ago, Kim, and he was really recommending Hyatt as a great program for families. So I'm glad that you brought that one up and like ways to kind of maximize that because their point redemption is certainly much more generous than, as I mentioned, the Marriott card. [00:15:11.380] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. Ed and I are big Hyatt people for sure. [00:15:15.100] - Tamara Gruber Well, it sounds like you gave a couple of good starter cards for someone that's interested in travel but maybe doesn't have any particular destination in mind, or they just want to be able to use it, like travel generally. I know some people are like, really into Southwest, do everything Southwest. We had somebody on that talked about that in the past. But are there any other kind of starter cards that you would recommend for someone that doesn't want to be loyal to a particular brand or a particular airline? [00:15:43.570] - Jennifer Yellin Sure. Yes. If you don't want to be loyal and you kind of want to be agnostic and have to diversify your portfolio, I guess the Chase Sapphire Preferred is a great card. I wouldn't say the sign up bonus is as high as it has been over the past year. So if you're not in a rush, you might want to hold off. But that is a good program where it's simple. They have really good transfer partners such as Hyatt, United, JetBlue, and then once you get more into it, you can explore some of the international airline partners as well. But it's simple. Everything transfers as one to one, and you can kind of figure out what your needs are and then transfer to the program. Or you can book through their travel portal. I think it's run by Expedia. It's the exact same process as booking as any other Expedia hotel you would or Air flight. And you can utilize your points that way, too. It's at a fixed value, so they offer a good amount of opportunities. [00:16:37.550] - Tamara Gruber And are they one that has a really broad portfolio of Airlines? I remember I used to do that a lot with Amex, and then they had gotten rid of a lot of their partners and we kind of dropped Amex for a while. Some still have limited partnerships with the one to one transfers. [00:16:55.310] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah, I think they have a broad number of transfer partners. It's on the airline front, off the top of my head. United JetBlue, British Airways, which a lot of people will book domestically. You can book their British Airways points using on American Airlines, so they're a partner. So it's really easy to travel domestically even with an international airline. And then there are some other international carriers, too, in Southwest actually is one of them as well. So I think they have a good amount. There are definitely ones that are better than others just because of not all points are pretty equal. So if you transfer one to one to Hyatt versus one to one to Marriott, Hyatt points are 20,000 Hyatt points is probably equivalent to 60,000 Marriott points. So it's slightly different when you're transferring in a one to one rate. You want to get the best value. I'd say. [00:17:45.920] - Kim Tate Yeah. I think that it's good to mention that you do have to be mindful of the transfer partners because that is where you can get into. There's a whole it's kind of like couponing, right? Where the people who are like those extreme couponers, they knew everything and they could stack stuff. And I think that people who really get into this are good at stacking stuff because it's like, oh, I know for a fact that British Airways has really high taxes. So maybe you want to fly Air Lingus into Ireland and then get to there's little things like that that you learn over time. But it is nice to have the multiple transfer partners knowing that you can kind of optimize the way the credit cards work for you. Do you have any tips? Because I know this is a big thing in the point space about deciding if you do decide to have multiple cards, how do you decide what expenses to put on each card? [00:18:29.730] - Jennifer Yellin So I have many cards, probably too many, but I kind of look at category bonuses. So some credit cards will give increased payout for gas, some will for restaurants, some for travel, supermarkets, your common purchases. And so I kind of lay it out and I actually have what's it called tape with Sharpie written on which one to use for various types of purchases. And that has helped, but that can definitely get overwhelming. I'd say if you don't want to be overwhelmed, you're probably better off with a credit card like the Capital Adventure that just offers you two points for every dollar you spent. It doesn't matter what you're purchasing. If you're buying a toy for your child, purchasing travel, going to grocery store, anything, it's the same return. So it really depends on maybe your personality and how much you want to spend on this. But if you're willing to put in the effort, you can definitely maximize every single purchase you make. But it will require a few different credit cards. [00:19:35.410] - Tamara Gruber I like that tip, though, of like putting a little note on them in some way because I have a terrible memory when it comes to numbers. And so I could see myself having a spreadsheet somewhere that says use this one for gas and this one for that. But until it becomes like routine and a habit, I would be like which 01:00 a.m. I supposed to use again. So like a little tip, right? [00:19:56.480] - Kim Tate So many people in the point space on the groups, a new quarter comes around and they change out and they have those label makers like the Dymo label makers, and they put them on their cards, which card to use? And they do it for their spouses too. That maybe aren't into it as much because sure enough, I think of that. I'm like, which one do I want to use for dining? What do I want to pay here? [00:20:24.450] - Tamara Gruber I'm thinking like when you use Apple Pay or you do online and your card saved, you can name them. Usually just name it like Amex or Visa. You could name it like grocery store, dining, gas. [00:20:36.650] - Kim Tate All the gas probably isn't needed online. [00:20:39.090] - Tamara Gruber So that kind of covers some of the general travel. I know some people have some dream trips in mind. Like say, okay, I want to go to the Maldives or I want to go to Tokyo. Like what is a good strategy to get me to a particular destination? Is that better to then look at a specific card for the airline? That might be best for that? What would your approach to that kind of scenario be? [00:21:05.080] - Kim Tate Absolutely. [00:21:05.600] - Jennifer Yellin Whenever I give anyone advice, I always actually find it's easier for me to help them when they have a specific trip in mind, because then you can have a strategy for that particular destination. So I know it was a few years back, but a friend of mine wanted to go on our honeymoon to the Maldives. Like you had mentioned, it's definitely a quite extensive adventure. So this is a prime opportunity to use your points and miles. And I said, well, the Hyatt actually has a great property there get the highest credit card. I can't remember what the actual bonus was at the time, but right off the bat, it was either two or three nights free at the Maldives. This was many years ago when before the point rates went up a little bit. But that was probably a $3,000 in savings. So I think if you know exactly where you want to stay, let's say it's the Hyatt, then look to see what the Hyatt credit card is offering at the time. Look to see what maybe the Chase Sapphire Preferred is offering at the time, since you can transfer the Hyatt and see which one is going to give you a better welcome offer for that particular destination in mind. [00:22:07.650] - Kim Tate Yeah, I know we were planning a trip to Tokyo, and Japan Airlines is a partner with Alaska, and Alaska is my airline of choice here in Seattle. And so that was easy for me because I was kind of banking those miles and I got the Alaska card because my status gives me free bags, but I was able to get free bags for my kids as well. And all that. And those points really helped in the way get us our Tokyo flights that we didn't get to use, but still there. [00:22:32.320] - Tamara Gruber You got them? [00:22:33.530] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:22:33.910] - Jennifer Yellin I did something similar last year about probably eleven months ago. I knew I wanted to go to Hawaii over this past December break. We didn't go, therefore, we went to Aruba. But I purposely just got the Alaska credit card purely for them, based in Boston. Boston. I don't think I've actually ever flown Alaskan Airlines in my life, actually. But there was a points available I saw. So I immediately applied for the credit card and both my name and my husband's name. And actually I applied for the personal credit card and the business credit card in both of us. And I knew that immediately would give us both a one way flight there. And I already had American Airlines booked on the way home with points. So I applied for that card for that one specific destination. I now have all these Alaska airline miles, and I know that I'll just use them at another point of time to hopefully go to Hawaii again. [00:23:21.250] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:23:22.350] - Jennifer Yellin So I did that myself, too. [00:23:24.870] - Kim Tate So let's talk about we talked about booking flights and using points because this is something that I've struggled with a lot. When you are for a family, when you are wanting to use points, do you think it's easier to just always search for four tickets? Say you're a family four. Tamara is a family, three, whatever you are, your whole family search for tickets with those points? Or do you think it's better to be willing to pay for some and get tickets for some? Because I know that I've struggled with that, especially because as a status person, I almost want to buy my ticket, which is what I did for our spring break. I bought my ticket and I use points on my family's three tickets because now I'll earn miles on that trip and they don't care about anything else. So do you have any tips about that for using points with a family? [00:24:10.340] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah, we actually do the same. We fly JetBlue a lot now. And my husband had status and actually they extended his status. So he still has his status, which actually isn't worth as much anymore. But we'll pay for his ticket and then use the points to purchase tickets for myself and my two kids. And then Jeff, who allows you if you call them and the tickets are booked within a few minutes of one another, they'll kind of link them kind of for you. So that's a strategy we use with JetBlue and Southwest. There's no capacity control. So as long as there's a paid ticket available, you can go ahead and use your points. It doesn't matter, unlike some other Airlines. But with other Airlines, sometimes I do recommend just looking at one ticket at a time, because if there's one or two tickets, you could do that. The only problem is when you're booking with multiple itineraries. And sometimes if there's schedule changes, the Airlines aren't as helpful, I guess is the right term to keep families together, necessarily if they are booked on separate itineraries. So that's just one thing to keep in mind if you're booking under multiple reservations. [00:25:15.090] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, we've actually had that happen to us a number of times. We used to travel on points much more often and we were separated. And it's one of those things that especially when you book far out in advance, they tend to reshuffle flights fairly often and equipment, and so you can easily get moved around. And it's something I'm sensitive to because I have a child who is now older, but when she was younger was also a nervous liar. So there's, like, no way I would have wanted her separated from me. I think it's a good tip to say call, tell them to link the PNR numbers on the itinerary, but it's definitely not foolproof. So if it's something that you're concerned about, definitely something to keep in mind. [00:25:59.070] - Jennifer Yellin Right. And my thought is if I'm willing to pay for two or three of the passengers and I'm probably willing to pay for all of them and then use the points at another time, I personally like to book with everything either paid or points just to keep everything clean. [00:26:15.750] - Kim Tate And I know that when you do talk about just for people who are maybe a little more intermediate or advanced well, if they're advanced they already know this. But I know that a lot of people use Expert Flyer, which is a website. You can actually pay a yearly membership fee. I think it's like $49 a year. $99 a year. I don't remember what it is. And they somehow have some magic API that looks for special award availability that's coded a certain way. And so if you are trying to play a game, I know some people set up like alerts so that if they're watching a specific flight or a specific destination, they can kind of if an award ticket becomes available, they can hurry and log in and book it. [00:26:57.950] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah, absolutely. That is one good technique. And another thing I've kind of found helpful at times is using an award booking service. I know that seems silly from someone who kind of knows as well, but specifically with international Airlines, it can be beyond overwhelming. And they have all the tools and they have the same API's. And I don't know what they do in the background, but sometimes they're able to find ways that you didn't think of to go ahead and book an award internationally using partner programs. And it can actually save you points. So if you have points on one Airlines, but then also points in a flexible program like the Chase Sapphire Preferred Card, which awards you ultimate reward points, you actually could potentially transfer your points to a program and then book your itinerary for less points than booking with another program. So there's so many different things to know, I guess, when it comes to that. But there are services out there. [00:27:53.490] - Kim Tate Yeah. Do you have any? Because I know a friend that I kind of met once that's in the space. And at one point when we were looking at Japan and I was trying to decide if I was going to do it myself and he charged like 150 or something to do it for you. But do you know what those typically charge or what? Is there a top one or two that you know by name that you could mention? Sure. [00:28:15.120] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. That price point sounds about right. But then there are other services that have kind of come out over the past few years. So one is Point me, it used to be called Juicy Miles, and instead of them actually booking it for you, you can kind of like Expert Flyer in a sense, somewhat. You put in your itinerary and it kind of lists out all these different options for you. So it's all system process. There's no one physically doing it for you. And that's a much less expensive option. I think that you can charge a monthly fee or maybe just you can do it a one time or even a seven day trial period. I think so. Those are some good options, too, because it's less expensive. But it will give you all these international Airlines that you do in point programs that you probably didn't even know existed. And how to book. The only problem is some of them are a little bit more challenging to actually transfer to and book. But by quick Google searching, there's, like everything out there that you can figure out on how to transfer points and everything. It's time consuming. [00:29:16.410] - Jennifer Yellin It's really time consuming. And sometimes, I don't know, it might be easier. [00:29:19.740] - Kim Tate That's what I'm saying at this point. I would pay someone $250 to do it for me because I do know how time consuming. [00:29:26.970] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. And usually you don't pay unless it works. Right. [00:29:30.550] - Kim Tate Unless they get it for you. [00:29:31.880] - Jennifer Yellin Right. If you're not happy with it, no harm. [00:29:34.500] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's good tip. And I think also just a heads up for some people realize that a lot of these, like, I know Amex and Ultimate Rewards, a lot of their transfer partners take 24 to 72 hours for the points to kick into your account, which can be a big issue, especially if you're like, oh, this airfare just became available. Now I have to transfer the points, but then you're waiting there two, three days. I'm hoping that they hit your account so you can buy that award ticket. It's very stressful. I actually did that for Alaska to get our Japan tickets. I needed like 50,000 more and I had to transfer some. And I was like, oh, my gosh, please get in my account before these disappear. [00:30:09.750] - Tamara Gruber That's a really good point. [00:30:11.620] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. If you like Google also, I don't know why has it, but if you Google, like, time to transfer points from one program to another, there's so many experts out there, points people that have kind of taken all the data and put it all together. So some of them are instant. Some of them could even take seven days. But you could probably get a good inkling based on what these other people have put together. [00:30:35.190] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, it's one of these spaces where there are so many experts, but trying to sort through it all on your own is definitely confusing. That idea of being able to hire someone to help you. And thinking about that, I'm such an advanced planner, you kind of want to be like, oh, well, I'm probably going to use this. I'll just switch the points over now, but then you can't switch them back. [00:30:58.030] - Jennifer Yellin That is a good tip. Once you transfer points out of, like, Capital One or City or American Express Chase, I think those are the three main ones. They're in that program of choice. They are not going back in. So once flexible, points are no longer flexible. [00:31:12.770] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. One way. [00:31:14.020] - Jennifer Yellin Yes. [00:31:15.690] - Tamara Gruber Well, we talked a little bit about some ways that you can maximize kind of your earning potential through these. But maybe we can just touch on that a little bit more deeply because I feel like it gets challenging for families that don't have someone that's like a real road warrior that's traveling a lot to kind of build up points simply from travel. So obviously you need to find other ways to earn those points. So maybe you can just touch on a few of those strategies. [00:31:41.670] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. So one major way is to sign up for every single shopping portal. Ebates is one that's always advertised and that will give you cash back, although you can now have those points go into American Express. But similar to ebay, you can sign up and receive points to American Airlines or United Alaska. All the Airlines have their own shopping portal. So all you have to do is Google Alaska Airlines shopping portal and it'll bring you up. And a lot of them even have those widgets on your computer where every time you go to a site, if you were to Gap.com, it'll pop up and say kind of give you a reminder, remember to shop through the Alaska Port. I don't know if that. [00:32:22.620] - Kim Tate Yeah, the extensions. Like the Chrome extensions. Yeah, exactly. And I think Ebates, just so everyone knows it's called Racketon. Now, if you're confused about that. No, it's okay. You're good. I still think of them as ebay. So I wanted everyone to yes. [00:32:35.800] - Jennifer Yellin Ebay was definitely a softer name. So every time you make a purchase online, there's no reason not to earn points unless it's more of a boutique store. But with your mainstream stores, even if you're only earning one point per dollar spent that's one point more than you would have earned otherwise. And sometimes if you sign up for their emails, if you spend $200, earn $1,000 bonus. They have these types of bonuses all the time, especially around the holidays, Black Friday, even randomly, the long holiday weekends, like Memorial Day, Labor Day, big shopping weekends, and just sometimes out of the blue. So there's ways to really accrue a lot of miles from home. [00:33:17.530] - Kim Tate Absolutely. [00:33:18.420] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. [00:33:18.790] - Kim Tate That's one of my favorite tips. I do that a lot and I really like it. And there's these websites now, the one I use the most is like Cashback Holic. And they'll compare. So if you're going to you're like, okay, I'm about ready to buy. I'm going to book this Marriott stay. You can type in Marriott and it'll show you like who, because I belong to Racketon and Top Cashback and I can compare those two. I try not to get into too many of them, so I mainly use those two. But I'm like, oh, Top Cashback is 6%. Racketon is only four. I'm going to go to Top Cashback so you can get really nerdy and kind of compare them also. [00:33:49.190] - Jennifer Yellin Oh, totally. Absolutely. And EV Rewards is another one that will also compare for you is great. [00:33:57.090] - Tamara Gruber I totally admit that. I completely suck at this. I don't use any of these. And every time you read about it, you're like, oh yeah, I should do that. And I just get excited if I actually learn how to use one of the bonuses on my credit card, like get $50, $50. [00:34:16.510] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah. And another thing you want to do, I mean, this is separate from the shopping portal is I remember I think it was the last time I received an email from Barclaycard. And they are the bank with JetBlue. And it was like ridiculous offer spent $2,000 on your card over three months and earn I think it was 40,000 points. It was a targeted offer. I got it. My husband didn't. I was like, all right, moving all my spent to my JetBlue card for the next few months. Right. And they're just paying attention just helps you earn these increased offers. So there's definitely ways from home without flying to earn points and miles. [00:34:55.990] - Kim Tate I've definitely been getting better about when I'm about ready to either go on a trip or go shopping with my girls or something along those lines. I log into my Chase and my Amex accounts online and I look because they have an offer section because you have to add them to your card. [00:35:09.740] - Jennifer Yellin Yes. [00:35:10.010] - Kim Tate And I don't think people always realize that. So if it's like, oh, Levi's is having a deal, I add it to my card because maybe they're going to want Levi's jeans while we're on back to school shopping or, oh, guess what? Hilton is doing this special. If you spend if you stay two nights, you get whatever the case may be. And I don't think people do that enough. But it's a good way to really I think if you want to get serious about it, you should log in often to the offers page because they reset every month. [00:35:34.850] Yeah. [00:35:35.740] - Jennifer Yellin Every day you're going to laugh. But American Express offers used to update every day at three in the morning. And I'm not joking. And so when my kids were small and I was up in the middle of the night non stop, I was like, so excited. And that was part of my daily routine. Some people have their morning coffee. I would look at my American Express offers. I'm not even kidding. That's awesome. Daily. But I will say it used to be you could add them to every single American Express credit card you have. I can't remember when, but a few years ago, it's now just one per account. So it's not as generous as it used to be. But I used to check them every single morning. And I'd saved thousands of dollars this way because it's not earning points. Well, actually, there are offers that you can earn points, but some of them are cashback. So now there's either cash back or increase point offers. So it depends on the offer and the type of card you have, because some cards might have it somewhere, but they're really great way to earn points or offset your purchases. [00:36:33.850] - Kim Tate And like you said, so many are targeted. Like Tamara got this offer for a Marriott offer at one point on her Amex and mine. I didn't have it and I'm convinced it's because I had the Amex Marriott card. [00:36:42.870] - Tamara Gruber I don't know. [00:36:44.830] - Jennifer Yellin You'll never know. And sometimes you can even I remember I can't remember the exact offer, but it was like grocery stores and I spend $500 getting $100 offer, something like that. And I wasn't going to make $500 purchase in once because sometimes it's on a single purchase. So I just bought a $500 gift card there and then just use the gift card over the course of my shopping fees. So there are ways to kind of I don't know if scheme the system is the right term, but play the game. [00:37:13.460] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, I do what you do, Kim, is when I'm shopping online, I'm like, wait, that might have an offer. Let me look. But the other thing with the gift cards is just simply like gifts, right. We give gifts and I buy gift cards for people all the time. And it's just like if it's something that you're spending anyway, just find a way to use to earn points on it, right? [00:37:34.430] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. Or be the one to pay the bill at the restaurant and have everyone to Mo you buy the class gifts or anything like that. Like everyone wonders why I'm always a class mom. It's to accrue all the money and then I can put all the purchases on her credit card. [00:37:49.320] - Tamara Gruber Love it. [00:37:49.910] - Jennifer Yellin Little things like that. [00:37:51.290] - Kim Tate Well, I know another big way to maximize points is with sign up bonuses. So could you give any final tips for people that are thinking of getting a new card, anything they should know about sign up bonuses or things to watch for, and then wrap it up with any final tips that you think people need to know about credit card points? [00:38:07.580] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. So one thing you want to make sure of is when you sign up for a credit card, make sure it doesn't have to be the best offer because you might be waiting around for a year for the best offer. But make sure it's a really good offer. I know we were speaking before and you said you apply for an offer that was like half of what it typically is. So when you see an offer, make sure it's a good value and it's going to provide you with enough points that you'll be happy with that. Even if a better offer comes along in a month or two. Pay attention to best offer. Some banks, actually, if you apply within a few weeks or maybe even a month, if you call them up and say this better offer just came out, will you match it? They may or may not match it for you, but it's always worth a try. You never know. Some banks have kind of different fools and they change every so often also. But if you're looking for a credit card right now and specifically for family travel. The Southwest Credit Card actually has one of the best offers where you'll earn the Southwest Companion Pass. [00:39:05.500] - Jennifer Yellin I don't know if you guys have discussed the Southwest Companion Pass much on the podcast, but it's definitely one of my favorite travel features. And it allows someone to fly with you for free in a limited number of times. I've been a passholder for the past 13 or 14 years at this point. And it's like the most amazing thing ever. So that's one of my favorite offers right now. If you live in a Southwest hub, if you don't live near Southwest, then it's not worth it. [00:39:33.520] - Kim Tate And I'll chime in and just say that we did cover quite extensively about that Southwest offer and stuff with Lynne and that's episode 181. If anybody wants to go back and listen to that awesome. [00:39:43.960] - Jennifer Yellin Yes, she's an expert and everything's Southwest as well. So that's one thing right now, credit card offers are changing all the time. I think Marriott just came out with something last week, United as well. So it's like hard to even keep track. But sometimes even just like Googling best credit card offers from the experts. You'll get pages, but make sure it's really the best and not just them pushing you on the best when it might not be. [00:40:11.950] - Kim Tate Yeah, I definitely think that I've done that where especially if I have a big purchase, like, oh, I'm buying a new camera or we're about ready to take a big trip and I'm going to be putting a lot of charges. I kind of go and I say, okay, best credit card offers for March 2022 or whatever. And of course, it's the points guy, nerd wallet, upgraded points. [00:40:31.310] - Tamara Gruber Like all those guys. [00:40:32.280] - Kim Tate And so it's kind of good to just read through those and kind of see which ones are popping up. And they definitely, you'll know, because it's not just an offer. Like they'll write a whole article about this amazing offer is one of the best we've seen lately, that sort of stuff. [00:40:45.640] - Jennifer Yellin Right? Absolutely. And also just another tip is make sure you can meet the minimum spend requirements. Some of the credit cards are 1000 $2,000 in three months, six months. But the Capital One Venture X card right now, for example, is like, I think it's $10,000. So that might not be obtainable for most families. [00:41:04.130] - Kim Tate Exactly. [00:41:04.910] - Jennifer Yellin So it just makes it something you can do. [00:41:07.420] - Kim Tate Those business cards can sometimes have really high spends. Because I've looked at doing a business card, sometimes I'm just like, there's just no way I can spend that right now. [00:41:15.240] - Jennifer Yellin Right. [00:41:16.170] - Kim Tate Although I know that's a whole other expert level of people who do credit or gift card buy and resell to do that. So that's a whole other level. [00:41:24.990] - Jennifer Yellin Yes, it is. If you're interested in that, go to Greg at the Frequent Mile or he is crazy when it comes to this. But awesome attitude. [00:41:32.530] - Tamara Gruber One of the things that I'm thinking about. As I'm listening to you guys, I'm thinking about what I have an upcoming trip where I'm going to be spending a lot of money and some of that's already on one of my credit cards. But maybe I should look into what bonuses are up right now. But it makes me think about when you want to churn your cards. And we obviously talked about signing up, you and your husband for a card and signing up for this card in that card. And it's like, at what point are too many cards? Like too many? Like, how long do you keep it before you get rid of it? Are there considerations to think about in terms of your credit or just eligibility for future cards? That just to make people aware of? [00:42:10.930] Sure. [00:42:11.520] - Jennifer Yellin So as long as you're responsible with your credit cards, for the most part, credit cards are not going to hurt your credit. I mean, you'll see people who have 50 credit cards and they still have these awesome 800 credit scores. If you're applying for a mortgage to get a house in a few weeks, don't apply for a credit card right now. Right. So there's definitely or even any loan I wouldn't recommend applying for a credit card. Wait. And then go and get it. In regards to when you should cancel, if you're not getting value out of your credit card, cancel it's not going to hurt you or downgrade to a no annual fee. For example, if you have the Chase Sapphire preferred card and you find that the $95 annual fee is not worth it anymore, first of all, call and see if they'll do something for you. A lot of times they might say, okay, if you spend $1,000, we'll give you a $95 credit. You just never hurt. I know. Last year I think I ended up getting about $500 back from American Express amongst a lot of my credit cards. I know COVID played a hand in that. [00:43:16.470] - Jennifer Yellin But always call and see. And if not, then see if there's a car that you can downgrade it to, and then there won't be a Ding on your credit report. I mean, it also depends on what your current credit score is. And sometimes you might get a Ding, but it will go back up in a few months. So there's a few factors depending on. [00:43:34.050] - Kim Tate Yeah, it's like ten point Ding, and it does pop right back up because we've had that opening up a credit card kind of opens up. [00:43:40.310] - Jennifer Yellin Gives you more credit, which creditors like, too. [00:43:43.520] - Kim Tate So opening up credit cards is not a bad thing unless you're applying for a big mortgage. They don't like to see your capital, your accessibility too high, right? [00:43:53.510] - Jennifer Yellin Absolutely. And then Chase also has Chase and American Express have different rules in place. So I'm not sure if you've discussed Chase is 524. [00:44:01.800] - Kim Tate Yeah, we talked about that. [00:44:03.530] - Jennifer Yellin So you've applied for five or more cards. Usually they're personal cards, but sometimes they throw business cards into it, too. Chase will automatically not approve you for another credit card. I've seen some reports that that might be changing, actually. So we'll kind of see what happens over the next few months. But that's one thing to keep in mind. It's five or more cards in 24 months, I think I said. And then American Express also doesn't allow you to get the welcome offer for I believe it's like once in a lifetime, but once it falls off your credit report, they might not know. So might be like seven years. So those are things to kind of keep in mind. That's why you want to apply when the offer is the best, because if it's not and you're going to be losing out on points if a new offer comes around and then you're not able to get it and you're no longer a card holder. [00:44:48.390] - Tamara Gruber I have one more question for you, because now I'm just going to use you as my personal source for information if you want to get an additional card for someone in your family. So, for example, I have a 17 year old that we've been waiting till she turns 18 to get a credit card for her. And we've been debating like, do you get her own credit card or do we put her on one of ours? Do we get another one of the capital one cards? Any tips for if you're adding somebody in your family, maybe a first card? Is there any advantage, like kind of getting points from them versus kind of setting them up on their own? [00:45:24.660] Sure. [00:45:25.100] - Jennifer Yellin So just remember, if someone is an authorized user, you're responsible for all of their credit card habits. So if the credit card bill is not paid or if anything happens, it kind of can hit you. So just something to keep in mind with teenagers. But I actually personally don't know a lot about the high school age and what credit cards you can and cannot apply for for that age. I'm not there yet, fortunately. But setting someone up as an authorized user, I think some credit cards you can maybe do as early as 13, you can add them on. And that actually helps them as well build their own credit score. So it's always a great thing to get add on authorized users if they're not eligible to get their own credit card. And then when they are to get them, there are various student credit cards, and a lot of times those comes with $300 spend limits or very low thresholds that you might want for your child. But yeah, definitely getting them set up will only help their credit score, which can then ultimately help them in their 20s to apply for a credit card. [00:46:26.470] - Jennifer Yellin That will be useful. But there are a lot of student credit cards out there that do give you points and miles. [00:46:32.810] - Kim Tate They do come with a really high annual fee or not annual fee interest rate. Normally, that's the only bad thing. We actually added my husband and my daughter, both as authorized users with my Amex Platinum Tamara, because of the lounge access. So now, especially if they're changing it, we're going to get Mia. And that'll be my maxed on three, because with Amex Platinum, you get three authorized users for $175 total. So you pay the $175 and then they get all the lounge benefits as well. Are they changing the lounge that you can no longer guests unless you spend like $75,000 starting in January of 2023? I think you don't get anywhere. Is that right, Jennifer? I think that's right. [00:47:15.840] - Jennifer Yellin That I don't know. [00:47:17.100] - Kim Tate Okay. [00:47:17.820] - Jennifer Yellin Sorry. [00:47:18.780] - Kim Tate No, you're fine. [00:47:19.580] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah, but I will say that the expensive credit cards a lot of times you have to pay to add an authorized user, but no annual fee or low annual fee credit cards. Usually you can add a few authorized users for no fee. [00:47:33.380] - Kim Tate Great. Well, one of our questions that we ask all of our guests is what do you wear when you travel? So do you have any favorite brands that you want to tell us about when you travel? [00:47:41.020] - Jennifer Yellin Sure. I travel as comfortably as possibly. And I also wear my everyday clothes, which consists of black as leader pants, which is side pockets, like those leggings. And then you can put your cell phone or any cars. Side pockets are a necessity. Once I found them, like two years ago, I can never go back. And sneakers or flip flops, depending on the weather. Nothing fun and exciting. [00:48:05.480] - Tamara Gruber Well, you're brave wearing flip flops on the plane. [00:48:07.370] - Kim Tate My feet are always freezing. [00:48:09.230] - Jennifer Yellin Yeah, that is a good point. It depends on the length of it's. Just like an hour flight that's going to be different. But you're right. I used to travel for work every single week for many years. And I would always be traveling like those high heels and hated every second of it. I would get off the plane and go straight to the client site for the week. And now I just want to be comfortable. [00:48:28.770] - Kim Tate And everyone has those little packable ballet flats that you can just pop in and out. Yeah. [00:48:34.610] - Tamara Gruber I'm happy, though. So work travel days are behind me, too. And just like work dress in general has changed. [00:48:41.210] - Jennifer Yellin Oh, yeah. I got rid of all of my stuff, never going back. [00:48:44.640] - Kim Tate Good. [00:48:45.030] - Tamara Gruber Well, can you remind our listeners where they can find you online or learn more about points? [00:48:51.120] - Kim Tate Absolutely. [00:48:51.940] - Jennifer Yellin So you can find me at my blog Deals We Like. You can also find me on Twitter or Facebook. Everything is at Deals We Like. And then also I'm a freelance contributor at the Point Sky and CNN Underscore. So I have some great articles there as well. That where you can learn more about credit cards, family travel, anything in the points and miles world. [00:49:10.850] - Tamara Gruber Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us. It's always really great when we can get an expert on and just kind of brainstorm some ideas. Hopefully people will have something new that they can try to get them a little bit closer to their next kind of dream trip. [00:49:25.130] - Kim Tate Thanks for having me. It was great chatting with you. [00:49:27.320] - Announcer Thanks. [00:49:27.630] - Tamara Gruber You too. [00:49:31.850] - Kim Tate Well, as always, thanks for joining us for another week here and I have a little request. Tamara, I was looking at our podcast page the other day and I noticed that we were almost at 100 reviews. We are really close so I'm going to do a little bag from all of our lovely listeners and ask you guys if you're willing if you love our show, if you would leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast app, the one I looked on was Apple podcast. But wherever you're at or listen to us, if you'd leave us a positive review, we'd love it. We love hearing from you guys and I'd love to see that switch to 100 reviews. [00:50:05.780] - Tamara Gruber That would be great. I know we've been at this for almost six years and actually by the time it comes out it will be six years and we're just really bad about asking for reviews. We definitely appreciate it. I know some podcasts every day it's like the first thing that you hear is like leave us a review but we would appreciate it. We'll give you shout outs online. We'll read them especially if they're nice, but even if they're not nice, we will read them mindful of it but otherwise stay tuned because next episode we're going to be talking about sustainable travel and I think that is also on a lot of people's minds as we're getting back out there and how to be responsible and thinking about things in a more sustainable way. So join us next time talk to you again soon. Bye.

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200 Porto Douro Valley Portugal

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 2, 2021 44:28

Our 200th episode kicks off a series of podcast episodes covering Kim and Tamara's recent EPIC trip to Portugal. This week we are joined by Kirsten Maxwell, from Kids Are a Trip and Multigenerational Vacations to talk about visiting Porto and the Douro Valley in Northern Portugal. Stay tuned for future episodes on the Alentejo, Algarve and Azores regions of Portugal! Disclosure: Our trip was hosted by EPIC Travel, a boutique travel agency specializing in arranging custom itineraries in Portugal and Morocco. EPIC's in-country travel planners have close relationships with hotels, guides, drivers and tour operators and can design the perfect trip for your travel style and interests. EPIC focuses on adventure and cultural experiences to allow you to have a deeper and more epic journey. Visiting Porto & the Douro Valley Porto is similar to Lisbon but much smaller and more compact, easier to explore in just a couple of days. Start off your visiting with a walking tour (we used Explore Sideways) to get a feel of the city. Be sure to walk across one of the bridges, or take a water taxi, to Vila Nova de Gaia, across the river World of Wine is an entertainment complex with multiple museums, restaurants, and bars in Vila Nova de Gaia -- offering so much to do for families, friends, and couples. WOW offers a Chocolate Museum and experience where you can take workshops such as a chocolate and port pairing class. There is also a museum about Porto and Portuguese history and even a Rosé museum! You can learn a lot about Port wine with a tour and tasting at Taylor's, one of the major port producers, which is located right next to WOW. We stayed at Vila Foz, a luxury boutique property in the Foz district of Porto, about 10 minutes from downtown. It is located right across from the coast, along a coastal pathway great for walking, running, or biking. Vila Foz offers both a historic manor house and more modern rooms. The service and food are excellent and the hotel has a very nice spa, making it ideal for couples or a girlfriend getaway. To visit the Douro Valley, you can either rent a car and self-drive, or take a day trip tour from Porto. Even if you are staying in the Valley, we would recommend that you hire a driver or take a wine tour (we worked with Lab Tours Portugal) when you want to go wine tasting. Also keep in mind that driving in the cities is quite harrowing, as are the narrow streets you will find in many of the small towns in the countryside. So if you are not comfortable with that, be sure to hire a driver instead. The Douro River Valley is a UNESCO Heritage site for its terraced vineyards. It is a popular river cruise destination but if you are visiting by land, you can get a good sense of it in just one to two days. If you want time to relax and enjoy activities at your hotel, then plan on staying longer. The Douro River Valley is ideal for couples or friends because the main activity is wine tasting. However, if you are visiting with kids you can find other activities like hiking and kayaking. You can also take a Douro River boat cruise from the town of Pinhaõ on one of the historic boats used to transport barrels of port wine down the river to Porto. If traveling with young kids, be sure to stay at a hotel that offers on-site activities and/or babysitting. Douro 41 is located between Porto and the Douro Valley, but on the Douro River, and it is a great choice for families with young kids or teens. They offer many activities on site including picnics, boat cruises, kayaking, and paddleboards. The hotel also has a movie corner and game room with a snooker table and board games. When going wine tasting, you will want to make reservations ahead of time and be sure to plan out your day as the quintas are all very spread out and there aren't a lot of restaurants and things around. It is best to work with a wine tour company like Lab Tours Portugal. For a high-end, luxury stay, book a room at the Six Senses Douro Valley. The Six Senses offers a convenient location, great rooms, wonderful food, and tons of activities on site for adults as well as children from pickling classes to making your own bath products. Some are complimentary and some are additional. The Vintage House in Pinhao is a more traditional British style hotel located right on the river in a convenient location for exploring the small town. There is a wonderful on-site restaurant, outdoor terrace, and lovely pool. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.190] - Kim Tate Discover why you should visit the second biggest city in Portugal. [00:00:15.950] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We 3Travel. [00:00:30.410] - Kim Tate So, Tamara, we are back from our massive epic trip to Portugal, and we are going to dive in on some coverage and talk about our trip over the next few episodes. [00:00:41.990] - Tamara Gruber Actually, I know we have to apologize for having, like, an extra week break in there, but we were just too tired last week. Guys, we couldn't do it, I think. [00:00:51.050] - Kim Tate My eight hour time zone change. I'm still not recovered one weekend. There was no way we were making it happen. So hopefully you guys forgiven us for our extra delay. [00:01:03.530] - Tamara Gruber We had a very busy trip. And so when we were on the trip, we decided that the best way to do to cover it for our listeners would be to break it up into the different regions that we visited. Because as much as you may like us, you probably don't want to have us going on and on for about 4 hours trying to cover everything that we did in our trip, and then we probably still couldn't get to it. [00:01:25.310] - Kim Tate Yeah. I think 17 days in one podcast episode is too much to ask of anyone. So I think we made the right choice. And I think that we learned about the variety of Portugal and how much more there is than just Lisbon. And that's what we're hoping to help share with you guys with these episodes. And having multiple episodes is that we can help you see that there is variety. It's not just pretty tiles and Rivers. So we're going to help share some of that. [00:01:53.810] - Tamara Gruber So let's break down where we went and we're just going to probably cover things maybe not exactly chronologically the way that we did them, but breaking up into regions. But our trip started out in Porto, which is a Northern city of Portugal. And from there we explored the Douro River Valley, and those two areas are what we're going to talk about today, because a lot of that would be captured in one trip. But I think as we work our way through the different episodes, you'll kind of get a better sense of if you want to do this region in that region, like what things kind of go together. [00:02:29.390] - Tamara Gruber But after Porto and Douro, what do we cover next? [00:02:33.350] - Kim Tate I think we're going to move to the Alentejo region, which is the biggest region of Portugal. And it's kind of that whole middle section in between kind of the Northern section, which is Porto Douro, and then the Southern section, which is the Algarve. It was a real delight for me to discover. It's definitely a wine region, has some epic night skies and sunsets, and we're going to kind of get more information about that region. [00:03:02.090] - Tamara Gruber I kind of think of it as if you like Southern Spain or if you like Tuscany, like you would probably really like Alentejo. It has a lot of that kind of rolling Hills. There's some small hillside, historic towns, big wine farms, I should say, big vineyards as well as wine, hotels and estates that are on those properties. So a lot to offer families, couples, really any type of travelers, especially those that like to get a little bit more off the beaten path. But then from Alentejo, we're going to go. [00:03:37.070] - Tamara Gruber I don't know if we'll cover it this way, but on our trip, we went down to the Algarve, which is going from off the beaten path to probably very much the beaten path with many tourists. But it was some place I've never been to, and I've always wanted to go because I don't care how busy something is. Those gorgeous coastlines and the caves and the cliffs is just something that I needed to see for myself. [00:03:59.090] - Kim Tate Agreed. It's quite beautiful. And again, another amazing place to find sunsets. And yeah, it was neat to see that. And then I think then we'll wrap up. We came back into Lisbon after the Algarve and flew over to the Azores, which is kind of I think that's probably the trendiest place that people seem to be most excited about hearing about based on social shares that I've seen all of us, the comments we've been getting. [00:04:24.710] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I think not as many people have gone. It's on a lot of bucket lists. There's a lot of curiosity in terms of where do you go? How do you do it? There's a lot more information out there about Lisbon and Porto, so definitely look forward to sharing that. Of course, we only had a chance to visit one of the Islands, but we try to see as much of that island as we could, so definitely stay tuned, lots of content. But this week we're going to start off with Porto and Douro. [00:04:52.490] - Tamara Gruber And since you probably don't want to hear just from us, we're going to try to bring in some other people on these episodes, too. That joined us on the trip or that helped us plan the trip. [00:05:02.330] - Kim Tate So we're starting off today with Kirsten, who is with us for the first seven days. And so with her, we are going to talk all about Porto and Douro Valley. [00:05:18.810] - Tamara Gruber So this week we're here with Kirsten Maxwell, who is founder of Kids Are A Trip. And you may remember her from previous episodes where we talked about what do we talk about? We've talked about kids with allergies I know. You've been on many times. Kirsten right. [00:05:31.350] - Kirsten Maxwell That's right. I also did all inclusive Mexico resorts with you guys yes. [00:05:36.270] - Tamara Gruber Such a good resource. So this time, we're having on to talk about Porto and the Douro Valley in Portugal because we were all just there together. [00:05:44.190] - Kirsten Maxwell We're so fun. Yeah. [00:05:46.230] - Tamara Gruber So before we get into talking about that particular region, I just wanted to kind of go through a Disclaimer and talk a little bit about how we did our trip. So for this trip, we worked with Epic Travel. Epic is a boutique travel agency that focuses exclusively on Portugal and Morocco, and they create custom itineraries for families and couples and others that are looking to explore a little deeper and add some adventure and culture into their journey through Portugal. And so we worked with them to try to get a sense of what type of experiences and things that they can arrange. [00:06:23.430] - Tamara Gruber And so just as a Disclaimer, our trip was hosted by both Epic, and their travel partners, different hotels and activity providers. And our flights were provided by TAP Airlines. So big thank you to them. But in the meantime, if anyone is interested in planning a trip after you're inspired by our little discussion here today, then you can reach out it's Epic Travel and check out what they have to offer. But let's talk about it. So, Kirsten, you've been to Portugal before, but I think this was your first time in Porto or the Douro Valley. [00:06:57.450] - Tamara Gruber What did you expect when we went? What were your overall thoughts about that part of the trip? [00:07:03.630] - Kirsten Maxwell This was my first time to visit both those areas. And I think what I expected was a smaller version of Lisbon, which I kind of feel like Porto is and with the Douro Valley, I had no idea what to expect. I mean, I knew it was a wine region famous for its river cruises, but no idea what we would find there. [00:07:24.750] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I've heard about it being very pretty and a UNESCO heritage site with the terraced river valleys. Also, I knew it was the birthplace of Port, but I was not thinking of it exclusively as Port. And then when we were in Porto, we learned so much about Port that I got worried. I know it's going to be only Port. I was relieved to find out that they actually do a lot of other wine there as well. [00:07:49.650] - Kirsten Maxwell I think I probably have the same misconception as well. [00:07:52.470] - Kim Tate Well, I was kind of excited to see how each of the Quintas as we soon learned what they call their farms and kind of wineries out there. They do wine differently than I think in the States that we're used to where it's like, oh, these are the Cab grapes, and this is our cab. Sov and this is our Merlot or whatever it is. And there they just kind of say, oh, we're just going to grab all the grapes, mix them together and see what we get. [00:08:18.990] - Kirsten Maxwell That's true. [00:08:20.790] - Tamara Gruber Mix and match different way of planting. Yes. [00:08:25.110] - Kim Tate So we only had two days in Porto, but why don't you kind of highlight some of the things that stood out to you? And how long do you think people should maybe plan on spending in Porto? [00:08:37.710] - Kirsten Maxwell We did pack in a lot in two days. I think I had mentioned maybe to Tamara while we were walking around through the city. I mean, that was my favorite part, just walking through the little back alleyways and seeing the historic buildings and seeing all the people outside enjoying dining and the restaurant terraces. I really thought that was part of the fun was just kind of going through the back alleyways and finding those hidden gems I still love.We went to this place called the World of Wine or WOW World of Wine and it is massive. I can call it like an entertainment complex with I think there's seven different museums, twelve restaurants. It has everything you could want to spend, like a fun day out with family, kids, husband, girlfriends, whatever. For as many days, I would say at least two days minimum in Porto. And you probably could go up to maybe four with, like, a day trip to the Door Valley. [00:09:39.030] - Tamara Gruber Probably. Especially if you wanted to build in some of the workshops or experiences that they had. It. Well, like we did the chocolate and Port tasting, but even for kids and families, they have, like the chocolate pop cake, pop making and the whole chocolate Museum. I think my kid could spend a good amount of time in there, especially when they got to the tasting section. [00:09:59.730] - Kirsten Maxwell Agree that and the Rose place. I can't remember what it was called, but I think a teenager that was of drinking age would really enjoy doing all the selfies that they had to offer. Yeah. [00:10:11.430] - Kim Tate You can tell that that whole Museum district was definitely designed with kind of Instagram and very modern tourism take on stuff. [00:10:20.910] - Kirsten Maxwell That's cool. [00:10:23.610] - Kim Tate I think you made a good point, though. That one of the highlights for me was that they arranged that walking tour for us because I think Porto is definitely one of those cities, and I think this is like it. I mean, Tamara does food tours a lot, but just when you're new to an international city, getting a tour early on can really, I think help you know what you want to do on the other days as well and kind of give you more of a feel for the city and help you identify things that maybe you wouldn't have noticed before. [00:10:55.110] - Kim Tate And so I love those local walking tours when you kind of get a feel for the city and being able to find where to eat and where to get stuff. I mean, that was huge. Yeah. [00:11:05.850] - Tamara Gruber And I found it really interesting, too, to learn about some of the history of Porto as you're walking around, you see all these names that sound very English, like Taylors and Sandman. So you're like, what is that connection with Port and the English? And you learned about this, like, 500 year old history and this alliance and how they developed Port because the regular wine didn't make the journey up to England, and so they fortified it. And just so many interesting little facts that help you feel like you understand the place a bit more. [00:11:34.530] - Tamara Gruber I mean, look, we learned all about these kind of winemaking families in the Douro Valley and competition or competitiveness, I guess, between some of them. [00:11:44.190] - Kirsten Maxwell Yeah. And I would agree it was such a nice introduction to the city in the area to do a walking tour. And for us, that's one of the best places to start. Like you said, you do different classes and stuff when you travel for us. It's a tour because it gives you the instant layout of the city. And usually the tour guides are a great resource for where to eat or what not to miss or a special gem. So definitely recommend taking a tour. [00:12:10.590] - Tamara Gruber So what did you think of Porto in general compared to Lisbon? I have a feeling I know what Kim is going to answer, but I want to hear what yours is first. [00:12:18.090] - Kirsten Maxwell So it's such a hard thing to say because they're totally the same but different if you understand what I mean. Porto is smaller, but it's got the Atlantic Coast, it has surfing, it has rocky shorelines, it's much more compact. And I think that Lisbon is just humongous. I mean, it's just hard to explore in a day or two. You really have to set yourself there and make time to see everything. But now I want to know what Kim has to say. [00:12:52.290] - Kim Tate It's so funny because I fell in love with Lisbon, but I really liked Porto, and I think it's for a little bit of the same reasons. They have much of the similar feel. I liked that Porto was kind of a little more compact. And then I really liked how they had, like, the two feels of the town, like Porto and then going across, I can't remember what it was called Gaia. And then it's called something like Novella Gaia or whatever. But I like that kind of how they had little sectors that they considered. [00:13:24.030] - Kim Tate And I really liked Porto. I just thought it was a cool thing. I loved staying at where we stayed. I love being able to see the rocky shoreline and kind of walk around. And then all the bridges were just so amazing. And I remember we were on one of the bridges and looking out and seeing all these modernist type buildings and boats and everything. And then there's like this Castle wall right there as well. And I love that about Portugal, that it's just such a really unique blend of history and old with kind of modern life still and I just love that. [00:13:54.810] - Kim Tate I think I liked Porto slightly more than Lisbon, but I love them both, so I'm not sure. [00:14:00.330] - Tamara Gruber Visit them both, I guess. [00:14:03.270] - Kim Tate I think it is really we can talk about this later. But I do think for people who are planning to go over there, I think it makes a lot of sense to fly into Porto and back out of Lisbon and do some stuff in between. I think that makes a lot of sense. [00:14:17.250] - Tamara Gruber Well, Kim, you mentioned where we stayed, which was a little bit outside of the downtown historic center of Porto in this neighborhood called Foz with Foz. And we really all loved our stay at Villa Foz. I think it was one of our favorites of the trip. And so Kirsten, I guess maybe you could tell our listeners a little bit about this hotel. Like, why did we like it so much? And would you recommend that people stay there, or do you think it's better to be in town? [00:14:45.330] - Kirsten Maxwell Yeah, sure. So like you mentioned, it's kind of on the outskirts of Porto, and it's a former Manor home and a newer building hotel building kind of attached to it, but attached to an underground. And the decor is phenomenal. I mean, it's just stunning when you walk in and you're just greeted by these high ceilings and wood and beautiful, deep, rich colors. And I will say the hospitality, I think we can all agree with second to none. You felt like wherever you turn, there was somebody there who could help you with anything you needed. [00:15:20.910] - Kirsten Maxwell And I think that as far as who should stay there definitely families. Maybe if you're looking for a little bit somewhere close to the beaches, it has good beach access, but more maybe for couples because they had a great spa and the restaurant top notch, one of the best meals we had there. [00:15:43.170] - Kim Tate Yeah, I agree with what you said. What do you think, Tamara? What did you think of Vila Foz? [00:15:48.150] - Tamara Gruber I mean, I loved it. Definitely. Like you said the service, the breakfast was great. I mean, not many places have oysters and champagne for their breakfast buffet. Not that I was ever up for oysters and champagne after, like, late night chef's tasting dinner with wine courses. But it was nice that it was there if I wanted it true. But yeah, I definitely thought it was great. And I agree it would be good for couples. [00:16:12.090] - Kim Tate And I think it was nice that they did have the set up where they did arrange transportation in and out of the city via Uber, but they kind of managed it themselves. So that is a little bit of a perk. It's maybe a little clunky right now how that works. But for people who are maybe looking to be not in the middle of the city necessarily. And like those lazy mornings and kind of being on site and eating, I think that's a good option, because you can then just get transportation into the city and then back home when you're ready or back to the hotel. [00:16:43.050] - Kim Tate But building on that, why don't we talk about maybe getting from place to place? Because we got to explore a lot of Portugal, which was one of my favorite things that I kind of got outside of the cities and got to see more of what Portugal is like the countryside. So what do you think your recommendation is for families or couples, whoever. How should they get around Portugal? Because don't you agree that there's more to Portugal to see than just Lisbon and Porto? [00:17:10.350] - Kirsten Maxwell Yes. Absolutely. And I think that was one of my favorite parts of this whole trip was getting outside of the major cities and seeing the countryside both in the Douro Valley and in Alentejo. And I think for families because usually have more than two, three, four people. I would recommend probably renting a car or hiring a driver, I think definitely hire a driver if you're going to do wine tasting. I highly recommend that I have had experiences many times with the transportation system, the public transport in Portugal, and it's not the most efficient. [00:17:49.710] - Kirsten Maxwell So for me, it just kind of makes more sense to do it on your own or hire a driver or like you said, take a plane, fly into one, fly out of the other, rent a car in between the two. I think that would be a great idea. What did you guys think? [00:18:04.890] - Kim Tate I definitely felt like the highways and everything are very easy to drive. It's normal, right sided driving. So for those who are used to driving in the States and everything, it's easy and things are well marked and all of that. The only thing is little towns. There are some tiny, tiny streets, and I would definitely not want to be doing that. So that's where if you're going to be touring little towns or like you're getting in and out of Lisbon or Porto, I would be a little hesitant to be driving in the city itself, but definitely small cars are going to be your friends there, which is going to be a little trickier for families with a lot of luggage. [00:18:44.850] - Tamara Gruber I feel like with so many cities, the idea is if you have to have a car, drop it off, like outside of the city, right. We saw Kirsten, you weren't there, but driving in Lisbon is just impossible. There's no way I'd want to attempt that. And I definitely would also agree with certainly hiring a driver for the Douro Valley and having someone that is maybe not just a driver, but that can arrange a wine tour for you to visit different wineries, because like many places, it's something where you need to have an appointment. [00:19:17.250] - Tamara Gruber But we saw, like, especially on I think it was the north side of the river. The roads aren't even as fully developed. So we were on some very narrow, gravely roads that were like Cliff right there, and there's no way you'd want to go wine tasting and beyond those roads. So 100% you need a driver then? [00:19:35.850] - Kim Tate Yeah. Absolutely agree. [00:19:37.770] - Tamara Gruber Since we're talking about the Douro Valley, we should talk to a little bit about kind of what it's like when we touched on it briefly. We know it's popular as a river cruise destination. So what are some of your overall thoughts about the region? Just what are the things to do outside of wine tasting? Or is this strictly something that you would recommend for people if they're looking for kind of beautiful scenery and wine? [00:20:05.190] - Kirsten Maxwell That's an interesting question. I think that there probably is a lot to do. We didn't have a lot of time to explore outside the vineyards, but we had a conversation with our host at Douro 41 Hotel, and they were talking to us about going kayaking, that there's several national parks nearby that you can go and explore and do hiking and stuff like that. So I think you could make time out of it. A little bit of a city escape where you're sitting by the pool or you're going out and doing some hikes. [00:20:39.090] - Kirsten Maxwell For the most part, though, I probably stick to couples, girls trips, single travel, even. I think that it really is all about the wine region for the most part there. [00:20:51.390] - Kim Tate Yeah, we did do that boat tour on the river out of when we were in Pinhaõ, and I think that was quite fun and neat and would be great for families. And maybe we didn't spend enough time in that city specifically. But I agree 100%. I think that region the real gem of it is visiting the different Quintas and tasting Port and wine and having some lazy lunches and definitely can find some luxury and high end stuff there as well. So maybe not the best for families, depending on how much time you want or what your family's travel style is, I think. [00:21:31.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I must feel like if you have little kids, you could stay at a place where there's a lot of very kid focused activities and do some relaxation and then just take a day trip, even if they had kind of the babysitting or kids club activities, maybe just the parents go off and do some wine tasting and come back. But you need to look at it as like this is the downtime, quieter time of the trip. [00:21:54.390] - Kim Tate Or just like your hotel base type. It's the kind of destination where you're going to really enjoy your hotel activities. Yeah, that's fine. [00:22:03.390] - Kim Tate So do you think, Tamara, you recommend the Douro, just like Kirsten said, you think it's good for mostly couples or girlfriend getaways type thing. [00:22:11.010] - Tamara Gruber I think it would be ideal for that again. Like with little kids. I think you want to be at a hotel that has hotel based activities. And then for teens, maybe you want to be a little bit more like where we were at Douro 41, which is somewhere between Porto and the Douro Valley, where you can do a lot more adventure and active types of things. [00:22:31.530] - Kim Tate I definitely think that was kind of a little gem there, with the Douro 41 being kind of on the Porto side of the Douro Valley, and it seemed like they did have more. They were saying they're pretty popular families and had, like, the movie nights and stuff. But then they had beaches and water activity on the riverfront, so definitely more of a fit for families there. So what do you think about any tips for visiting Douro? I feel like we kind of went through Porto pretty quickly, but maybe those together. [00:23:01.410] - Kim Tate What do you think are the tips for visiting the Douro region? And what about anything to follow up with Porto either? [00:23:08.130] - Kirsten Maxwell Yeah, I think we covered some of the small tidbits. But number one, Tamara talked about the roads. Definitely. If you're not comfortable driving small roads or winding roads or have a kid that gets car sick, you might want to make a mental note and consider an alternative option of exploring, which would be by a river cruise or just a day trip. Even from Porto, you could take a cruise up there might be easier and then making appointments at the different Quintas because they aren't like, I know a lot of places in the States you can just drop in. [00:23:41.730] - Kirsten Maxwell It seemed like many of them were making appointments ahead of time. I'm sure maybe some of the bigger ones you can drop in, but I'm not even sure about that. Which is why it comes in helpful to have somebody do that for you. [00:23:54.870] - Kirsten Maxwell I think that the hotels, restaurants, everything else seemed to be pretty spread out. So you want to have a clear plan going into things like have your itinerary sketched out of where you're going to go. What you're going to see what you're going to do ahead of time because it's not really let's wing it kind of a trip. [00:24:15.210] - Kim Tate Yeah, I know. Let's get on the road. Oh, let's stop there. That looks good. [00:24:19.170] - Kim Tate It's not really not that kind of part of your trip. [00:24:22.350] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I found that, especially in the Douro Valley, that it wasn't like they were just restaurants all along. You had some that were tied into Quintas, which I think you pretty much needed the reservations for. There was that one. Was it called like, Doc, I think. Yeah, Doc or something? That was, I think, a Michelin star chef, but it's a very nice restaurant right on the river. And then there's only really a couple of little towns there's Pinhao that we stayed at that seemed pretty small in terms of restaurants and things. [00:24:51.450] - Tamara Gruber And then there was one larger town gosh. I can't remember the name of it. I remember, it wasn't, like, super attractive. [00:25:00.450] - Tamara Gruber You definitely need some planning. And we all enjoyed our experience with Lab Tours Portugal. [00:25:08.310] - Kim Tate I was going to say I really think he did a great job, and I would recommend that way of doing it and even doing it from, like Kirsten said, a day trip from Porto kind of getting over there and getting picked up. That's really great. [00:25:21.390] - Tamara Gruber Well, we talked a little bit about some of the hotels that we experienced. One of the things that as we get into more of our Portugal trip, we'll find that we moved around a lot. But the good news is we got to experience, like, a lot of different hotels, which some of them would appeal to different types of travelers. And so we can break down some of the ones that we experienced in the Douro Valley when we stayed at two and then we had lunch and took a tour of another. [00:25:46.650] - Tamara Gruber So should we start at the top and just talk about six senses? [00:25:50.730] - Kirsten Maxwell I mean, how do you not? I think it's one of the most popular accommodations in the Douro Valley. If I'm correct it's very high end luxury property and tons of activities for families, families, adults, friends. They've really kind of thought about everything when it comes to six senses. I think that's kind of what they're known for. I would definitely recommend that for families with young children because I believe they had a child care there. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong and definitely had activities. Teens might like it, but I could see them getting kind of bored. [00:26:29.490] - Kirsten Maxwell You'd have to schedule some off property activities, which I'm sure they could schedule for you. [00:26:34.470] - Kim Tate I did see they did have quite a few activities each day that some were complementary and some were extra. But there were things like four by four tours and things like that. So I think if you're splurging to stay at the Six Senses, you can probably afford a few of those activities, and you could keep teens entertained so that could work. But yeah, and I think when you talk about luxury, we all looked up kind of the pricing there, and it's definitely you're going to be paying for that. [00:26:59.970] - Kim Tate But it's a very nice property. I loved how it was decorated and everything, and especially their little hotel dog Aqua. [00:27:09.210] - Kirsten Maxwell So cute. [00:27:10.950] - Tamara Gruber It's always nice to have a little friendly greeter like that. I feel like a lot of the programming that they had. I agree. It would definitely like that younger age group would be wonderful. We did something in the spa where we made a scrub. So they do those types of things for adults. But then they had that whole little workshop where they did types of things from the ground. So they would do things with herbs or pickle vegetables, or they seem like all types of different, very unique hands on types of things that I think some younger kids can really get into. [00:27:44.070] - Tamara Gruber So definitely, if you can spring for six senses would be a great way to go. But then we had another stay at Vintage House, which was a very different vibe, but very nice in its own way. So can you describe that one Kirsten? [00:27:58.050] - Kirsten Maxwell The Vintage house is. I call it traditionally British kind of hotel. It's very classical decor, something you'd expect to find in England almost was located right on the river, which was perfect. And you can kind of see the boats coming and going from your balcony in the room. They had lovely restaurant. We had really good dinner there, and it's located in the town of Pinhao. So if you wanted to walk into town and explore, you could do that. But it really was for them all about I think the location and their food. They had a great pool to be wonderful during the summer for kids and families, but there wasn't really much I felt going on for a family stay. Do you guys agree? Disagree. [00:28:48.030] - Kim Tate I agree. That's where we took that river cruise and they offer longer river cruises. We did, like a 1 hour one. I think that was ideal. So for families or even couples, it gives you a good little taste, but it's not so long that you're like, okay. Yeah, I've seen this. There's another Quinta on the Hill, so I definitely think that that was really nice and its location right there on the river was great. I loved the decor and kind of the classicness. [00:29:15.810] - Kim Tate They mentioned that it's going to be going through a remodel soon because you definitely had the it's very old and classic and kind of original. It's the original building. And so it's kind of got some really quaint and cool things like that. But I wish we would have had more time to kind of explore that city because I feel like if we knew more about Pinhao and what it was like, then maybe that would be more of a gem. So if you're thinking of kind of a little bit of a city stay in the Douro Valley region, you might look at Vintage House and Pinhao out and see what it kind of attracts. [00:29:46.530] - Kim Tate But I think overall, as we kind of expressed, Douro is kind of a maybe one or two night stay type destination, depending on what type of vacation you're looking for. [00:29:58.710] - Tamara Gruber Definitely central location. Good for that short stay. If somebody did want to stay longer in Douro, then stay at one of the other properties where they have much more going on on site. And it's more of a relaxation. This is kind of like a great place to lay your head while you're exploring the Douro Valley. [00:30:15.450] - Tamara Gruber So we already talked a little bit about the other one that we see. That Douro 41. But, Kirsten, what are your thoughts about Douro 41? [00:30:22.810] - Kirsten Maxwell I love six senses because it was super over the top and amazing. But Douro 41 is more of the reachable hotel for most families. What I loved about the rooms is you really felt like you walked in. Then you had floor to ceiling windows right overlooking the river. And it feels like you're almost on a river cruise. It seemed like that was kind of the feel that you got in the room. And then there were so many different little nooks and crannies around the hotel for families. [00:30:53.910] - Kirsten Maxwell There was a game area, there was a snooker table, there was a movie night area. They had pizza making classes, so many different things they had to offer for families that I thought it would make a really good stay if you wanted to escape from the city. Yeah. [00:31:11.370] - Tamara Gruber I was really impressed by some of the things they did from arranging picnics and doing the boat rides, doing the stand up paddle boards and kayaks. It just seemed like there was really such a great range for different age groups. And while it wasn't right there by anything, there were some restaurants. They said they were, like, 15 minutes away. Plus, they have two restaurants on site. One was like, I think a Michelin Star chef, and the other one was a casual, more of a casual pizzeria. So, like having those options around it. [00:31:40.170] - Tamara Gruber So you're not in the middle of a certain region or town, but there's still plenty to do, especially if you're willing to drive a little bit. Yeah. [00:31:48.330] - Kim Tate Agree. So any final thoughts about Porto and Douro Valley? Kirsten, you start then maybe Tamara you can kind of give your chime in about what you thought of those two areas. And just so people know, they're the north. They're on the north side of Portugal. So to give you a feel for the country, that's where we're talking. [00:32:09.030] - Kirsten Maxwell I think they're definitely must visit places in Portugal. I think so many people get trapped into the Lisbon Algarve experience because that's what they hear. [00:32:21.750] - Kirsten Maxwell But I think Porto is one of those. I mean, it's a huge city. Don't get me wrong, but there's still something about that seems a little bit hidden gem exploration kind of thing. Douro Valley. I really loved it, but I kind of feel like it's once you do it, then you can be. I don't know that I would go back to experience it's. Maybe with my husband. It just didn't give me that vibe of, like, hey, everything here is unique and felt very repetitive for me. The region. [00:32:54.870] - Kim Tate I totally agree. [00:32:57.270] - Tamara Gruber Before I went, I've heard so many people, especially young people, like, really raving about Porto, and I was never quite sure if it was just because it's like, the new thing versus Lisbon, like Lisbon being a little bit over touristed and trying to find that new thing. So it kind of had really high expectations of Porto. And with the Douro Valley. I've heard descriptions and I've seen some pictures and I kept thinking, oh, it would be a great place to do one of those week long river cruises, like a Viking cruise or something like that. [00:33:29.010] - Tamara Gruber So my two impressions, like leaving are that I really love Porto, but I didn't love it like that much more than Lisbon. So I think it's maybe just if people went to Lisbon and it was a little too crowded that Porto would possibly be a better alternative. I think we were also there at a nice time in fall when it's maybe not high season, but those nice shoulder seasons. So I definitely enjoyed it. And then the Douro Valley, I am pretty sure I would not need to take a river cruise through there. [00:33:59.790] - Tamara Gruber I think spending the two to three days there, it was definitely good. I think a week would feel kind of long. And then also, I guess there was our experience in the lounge of seeing all the people going on the Viking cruise, where we were kind of convinced that maybe we should pick a different one, right? [00:34:17.010] - Kirsten Maxwell Yeah. Different demographic than us. [00:34:19.770] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So I feel like if you want to go to Portugal for just a few days, like, maybe you have, like, a five day trip in mind. If you did just Porto and Douro, you could do that. And if you wanted to do a longer trip, then you want to add in those other things and do it. Kim said, which is like, go into one and out of the other. That would make a lot of sense. But it would be nice, like, as a pairing if you want to do just a five day trip or if you want to stretch it into a week and just have a little bit more downtime to relax. [00:34:49.350] - Kim Tate Yeah. I think that's all good. Those are all good points. [00:34:51.750] - Kirsten Maxwell I agree. [00:34:52.170] - Kim Tate I think the one thing we're not giving enough credit to Douro Valley is that no, I think we're doing enough credit, but that's the thing to know. It's amazing to see. And I remember the first day when we drove into there. We're like, Can you please pull over the car and we're all taking pictures? It was just amazing. [00:35:06.630] - Tamara Gruber It was so beautiful. [00:35:07.650] - Kim Tate And so it's breathtaking like that. It's a very unique area, and you can see why it's UNESCO World Heritage Site. However you get that and then you've gotten it. So you're good. So that's the thing to know about it. We're a week long vacation. It's kind of like, okay. Well, I guess we're going to go this do this again. So I think that that's good points for people to know. And I think that if you do, like Port and you do like wine tasting. It is a fun destination to go like that. [00:35:33.450] - Kim Tate However, it's also not like Napa, where you're able to just drive down the street and find another winery. I mean, they're spread out very far, and it's in a region that's not overly developed. So they were saying, like we were talking when we were on the river, like Kirsten said, one side, there's like no roads, barely. And the other side is where the main road is. And so if you're doing wine tasting and you work with a driver or a tour guide, they're going to help, you know, to stay on that other side of the river where you can visit a couple at a time. [00:36:02.010] - Kim Tate Because if you go across and try and drive on those no road type places, you're going to spend your whole day getting to one quinta, and you're going to miss out on when you maybe would have been able to visit two or three on the other side. [00:36:13.590] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Great points. Great point, Kirsten. We obviously worked with Epic to plan this trip, and they kind of took what we were interested in covering and developed an itinerary for us. When do you think it would make sense for a family to work with someone like Epic when they're planning a trip to Portugal? [00:36:32.970] - Kirsten Maxwell Wow. There are so many good times, I think, to use a boutique travel agency like Epic, it was so nice to be able to tell them our interest and have them kind of figure out what would be a good itinerary to go along with that. I think too often if you book, like, one of the major group tour travel agencies, you're stuck with a big group of people and you're going to the places that they pick for you versus Epic. I mean, they're working with you to customize everything from the beginning of your day to the time your head hits the bed at night and to kind of relieve yourself of all that stress of planning. [00:37:15.270] - Kirsten Maxwell There's just something to be said for that. And I think they did a phenomenal job of just hitting everything kind of right for us and what we were looking for. [00:37:24.270] - Kim Tate I think one of the other things that was huge about them is they're able to arrange kind of these unique things that maybe you wouldn't necessarily know to ask for to look for. And I think that's where the fact that they're not just a general travel agency, they only focus on Morocco and Portugal, and they live in those countries, so they know the guides, they know the hotels, they have personal relationships. Like we were there. Tamara and I were on talking to one of the Epic girls that was traveling with us, and she was like, oh, yeah. [00:37:50.670] - Kim Tate I'm just checking in with the hotel about some clients that are coming in next week, and I just want to make sure everything is set up for them. It's like a real personal experience. They're making sure everything is ready for you. And I think that's a huge thing. And little things, like, Tamara and I were going to the source, and we needed to have a negative PCR test. And so they arranged all of that in Lisbon for us. So we had the appointment, they got that all set up. [00:38:19.110] - Kim Tate So that kind of having someone that just knows what to do and helps you set all that up is huge. [00:38:25.290] - Tamara Gruber And the experiences that they can do, and they really focus on finding those unique things. I mean, it's easy enough nowadays to be like, oh, I want to do a food tour, walking tour, like, when you're in a city, fine. Like, you can find that. But then there's always, like, that next level of experiences. Like, I remember when we were taking the tram into downtown Porto, they were telling us about some things they did, like, they can arrange to do a private tram with a dinner on it with a great chef. [00:38:52.710] - Tamara Gruber Where you're doing, like, a chef's tasting while you're on the tram, going around the city. And one of those bridges, they do this experience where you're I don't know what you'd call it, like bridge climbing, like, you're like cable. So if you're into adventure, I mean, I'm thinking some teens, especially, would love something like that. It just seemed like there were so many of these things that they can do throughout the country that were so unique. And, like you said, you wouldn't know to ask for it. [00:39:20.550] - Tamara Gruber You many know I want to take a walking tour. I want to take a wine tour. Things like that. But these are things that you would never even come up with. But because they've spent so much time getting to know people personally, they have these relationships can do these types of things. So if you say, hey, I know I if I was working with them, I'd be like, hey, my daughter really loves stargazing, and we definitely would have been doing that. They can find those interests and things and then just make that next level experience and then having that hands on knowledge and even things when it comes to the hotel rooms, like, okay, this one is going to be better for, like, this room type is going to be better for you, like, knowing things to that level. [00:40:01.470] - Kim Tate Well, even me, like you said, I mentioned, oh, when we're in Lisbon, I really want to see a great sunset. Can you help us figure out and arrange so at sunset, we were at some kind of lookout or really great sunset. And they ran with that. And they were like, we ended up on a private Chartered sailboat river cruise for sunset. Right. Tamara? And she said it was all because you mentioned that you wanted to have a great sunset in Lisbon. And that's what we ended up with. [00:40:26.610] - Kim Tate So that's the kind of stuff that they do. [00:40:29.310] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And that's the kind of thing where that's just the moment that you remember with the trip, right? Like, something like that is the best way to start a trip or end a trip. It's just so like, wow, special. [00:40:42.210] - Kim Tate Well, Kirsten, we've probably already asked you what you like to wear when you travel since you've been a guest before. But what about anything new, any new travel products or apps or anything you've discovered recently that you want to share with our listeners. Okay. [00:40:54.090] - Kirsten Maxwell I came up with two things that I thought. Okay, maybe you haven't discussed on here before, but number one, because of the whole thing with having to carry your vaccine card. Now I've invested in a passport wallet so that I can always keep the vaccine passport and vaccine card with my passport anywhere I go. So I found that carrying one of those kind of wallets has been super helpful for me, especially when I'm usually tasked with carrying everybody's passports in our family. So it's kind of nice to have them all in one place. [00:41:26.970] - Kirsten Maxwell And then the other thing that I've found for individual traveling is a doorstop. And you guys maybe have seen these, but that you put underneath your hotel door and that if anybody tries to get into your room, it makes a big alarm, super blaring alarm to let you know somebody's trying to break into your room. But I feel like when you travel alone, you can never be too safe. So in addition to checking out your surroundings, like, I think it's a nice peace of mind to just stick it under the door at night, go to bed and then enjoy the rest of your trip. [00:42:01.890] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, that is a good idea. I feel like I've thought about those in the past, and I haven't invested in one. And I said I'm thinking about that time I forget where we were, which hotel. But I went to take a shower and I came out and they had made a delivery of, like, an Amenity or something. And I'm like, that wasn't fair when I went in the shower. Yeah. [00:42:20.970] - Kim Tate I'm thinking even with being the mom of two teen girls as they start going off on their own travels or stuff, maybe with girlfriends or whatever by themselves, then that would be a good little. [00:42:31.650] - Tamara Gruber Or you can have them in a separate room, right? [00:42:33.930] - Kirsten Maxwell Yeah. Exactly. [00:42:36.630] - Tamara Gruber Good suggestion, Kirsten. [00:42:38.010] - Kirsten Maxwell Oh, thank you. [00:42:39.090] - Tamara Gruber So can you remind our listeners where they can find you online? Absolutely. [00:42:44.430] - Kirsten Maxwell You can find me at kidsratrip.Com. [00:42:48.030] - Kirsten Maxwell That's A-R-E-A. Versus just the letter R. And then I'm at multigenerationalvacations.Com. [00:42:55.530] - Kirsten Maxwell That's my site about multigenerationalfamily travel. [00:42:58.830] - Tamara Gruber Awesome. [00:42:59.370] - Kim Tate Well, thanks again for being a guest. And I'm so glad we all got to travel again. It was really fun, and there's nothing quite like taking a trip with your girlfriends so thank you. [00:43:10.050] - Kirsten Maxwell Guys, thanks so much for having me. This was such a fun trip, and I would love to repeat it again with a different destination because there were so many good times that I'm like, oh, my God. That was really fun. Having a good time relaxing and enjoying life without the stresses of family. [00:43:28.110] - Tamara Gruber 2022 Here we come. Thank you. [00:43:32.250] - Kirsten Maxwell Thanks. [00:43:32.610] - Tamara Gruber Bye. [00:43:32.850] - Kirsten Maxwell Thanks, guys. [00:43:37.690] - Tamara Gruber Well, thanks for listening to another episode of vacation mavens, I hope you enjoyed hearing about our first few days in Portugal, and we are going to take a little break from our Portuguese coverage. [00:43:46.990] - Kim Tate So tune in next time because we are going to be talking about cruising and how cruising is coming back, which I know we just booked a spring break cruise. So I'm definitely interested in hearing about this. And maybe you are, too. [00:43:57.610] - Tamara Gruber Yes, lots of new policies, new ships, things to talk about. So we're going to get a couple of cruise experts on to dive into some details. So see you next time. Talk to you soon. Bye.

god world english england talk mexico british trip uber hotels wine epic states portugal valley museum southern teens guys castle port rivers doc cliff portuguese hills northern morocco viking sandman disagree islands unesco michelin porto gaia lisbon pcr manor napa versus aqua tuscany cab michelin stars algarve merlot taylors azores amenities vila nova sov unesco world heritage sites chartered foz alentejo douro atlantic coast quintas southern spain six senses unesco heritage douro valley full episode transcript douro river wow world kirsten maxwell tamara gruber vacation mavens announcer welcome stuffed suitcase

199 Fall Travel

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 5, 2021 31:38

Is the weather starting to change where you live? Autumn has arrived in the Northern Hemisphere and this week Kim and Tamara talk about where they have visited recently for fall travel and some other fall favorites. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.000] - Kim Tate It's time to fall into fall travel. [00:00:14.670] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:29.180] - Tamara Gruber So Kim, by the time this comes out, it's going to be less than a month from Halloween. Do your girls still do stuff for Halloween, or do they dress up or do they go on any haunted hay rides or any of those kind of things they have done? [00:00:42.560] - Kim Tate We have haunted corn mazes and stuff down here, and they normally get together with friends. And there's some kind of youth event that happens at some of the local farms and pumpkin patches and stuff. And we've been known to go to the pumpkin patches and do some of the kiddish activities. But with Mia being 14 now, she's kind of at the cusp of that, and she's got a sweet heart, so she still likes it. But she's not quite into all the activities as much anymore. [00:01:10.100] - Tamara Gruber No more trick or treating? [00:01:11.930] - Kim Tate She actually mentioned because they didn't go last year, and she said, I think I'm going to go this year. It'll be with her best friend. She's like, it'll be our last year, and we're going to go for it. And I said, go do it. That's awesome. [00:01:23.240] - Tamara Gruber So yeah, I'm waiting to see what Hannah will do. I know her friends have really been trying to convince her to do some kind of haunted house hayride kind of thing. To me, the whole idea of a haunted corn maze sounds absolutely terrifying. Something could just jump out of you. I don't like jump scares either. As a teen, I did do a haunted hayride, but at least then you know, the direction they're coming from. They only come outside, and I can kind of sit in the middle in a little safer, but right down the street for me, they have some kind of I don't even know I've never gone, but it's this whole horror thing in one of the parks that you kind of walk through. [00:02:00.240] - Tamara Gruber So it's a little bit more of a walk through type of thing, but they've not convinced her. So I don't know about trick or treating, though, because last year obviously no trick or treating. The year before she was going to go with one friend, but then it ended up raining. So I think they decided just to stay home and hand out candy instead. I'm not sure if there'll be one last or she'll just stay home, and we usually try to do Apple picking or some kind of visit to a farm this year. [00:02:27.240] - Tamara Gruber I've already gone and picked up Apple cider Donuts for her. I think she's just so busy she can't really see about it this year. I'm trying to still give all the fall treats. Here's some Apple cider and Apple cider Donuts. And I made pumpkin pie dip when we had some people over recently in our backyard. And so as she's getting the fall stuff without the scary stuff, that's cool. [00:02:52.230] - Kim Tate I grew up in Kansas City, and when I was a teenager, there's this area. And I can't even think because I know it's something like all the Kansas City listeners are going to be laughing that I can't think of this. I want to say it's something like the flats or the bottoms, or I can't remember. But there's this area in Kansas City, and it's like, known for having some of the creepiest most amazing haunted houses. And because it's this old warehouse district, right. And they would dress them all up and everything. [00:03:19.730] - Kim Tate And that was the thing that we always did as teens. And I'm kind of glad that my girls haven't gotten into that. I do know there's one up north, that's kind of a haunted house type thing in a warehouse. But other than the corn maze, there's not as much around here, but I remember as a kid those things that freak me out so mad. [00:03:38.260] - Tamara Gruber I'm starting to wonder if it like, haunted or not haunted, but it's just general, like, really creepy lawn decorations are like the new holiday lights. You know, how people know, there's the houses that do a really good holiday lights, and they drive around and look at them. The other day, I was driving and a home from practice, and there's a house that is absolutely terrifying. I don't know what's wrong with the people that live there, but there's basically a 15 foot skeleton. Then there's a whole line of super creepy zombie dudes. [00:04:09.280] - Tamara Gruber And then out of the corner of my eye, I see it's got to be like, ten foot tall pig with a giant knife and an apron on. And I'm like, Where do you even find this bizarre stuff? I really need to go buy the house and take a picture of it. But I'm scared that if I do, I don't know somebody who's a little disturbed in there. [00:04:31.390] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think I saw something a while back that spending for spending for decorations and all that stuff on Halloween is second only to Christmas. [00:04:42.320] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's so easy. And I were talking about all the houses that we used to never be able to go to when she was little. There was the house with the giant Spider. No, we had to skip that one. There was the one that had the little smoke tunnel you went through. We had to skip that one because she was scared of everything when she was little. So we were laughing about that. But not everything has changed because, yeah, I know, literally, we couldn't even go down certain aisles and target because if something started to move and make noise, she'd have a little breakdown. [00:05:10.370] - Tamara Gruber Oh, man, she's not the haunted house type. That's for sure. [00:05:14.760] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:05:15.470] - Tamara Gruber Well, there's lots of other fun things to do, though. You just went and did some haunted kind of stuff. I know I saw your picture when you're in Disneyland, and I'm like, Whoa, that looks kind of crazy for Disneyland. But tell me what you did when you were just down in California. [00:05:29.370] - Kim Tate Yeah. So for those of you who know Disneyland, they actually do a lot of seasonal parties. And starting in September, they do a Halloween time at Disneyland Resort, and they go out. They kind of decorate the parks with beautiful Orange swags, and they have some hand carved pumpkins decorating Main Street. And then they do a few other things this year, they have quite a cool area back in one of the regions for Coco and Dia des Muertes. And then some celebrations around that as well. And then the bigger thing that you saw my picture of was they have parties called Oogie Boogie Bash, and it's kind of crazy how expensive it can be, especially for a family, because they sell these bash party tickets in addition to your park ticket. [00:06:19.400] - Kim Tate But you don't have to have a park ticket for this party, which is kind of nice. So you can theoretically go to the parks with normal park ticket and then buy one of these. And you can get in 3 hours before your park before the party starts. You can get in at 03:00 p.m. When the party starts at six. And so some people choose to do that, but they are sold out. So if anyone's hearing this, you need to be looking ahead to 2022 if you're thinking of doing kind of a Disneyland and fall. [00:06:45.290] - Kim Tate But you can still go to Disneyland and celebrate stuff during the Halloween time celebrations. They do a ride overlay for Haunted Mansion, which is called Haunted Mansion Holiday. And it's got Jack Skellington, and he kind of takes over the ride. And sorry for Disney people. I should say the attraction. But anyways, so he takes that over and that lasts all for Christmas because it's kind of like him like that spooky mixed with Christmas season. So it's kind of fun thing. And then they also do cars Land also gets a big makeover and becomes radiator screams, which is kind of funny. And they do a lot of fun, like car part themed, like spiders made out of engines. And, you know, Crow bar stuff. And then they've got these fun cones and tire eyes. And each of the two rides that are not the main radio racers. Each of the two rides get a makeover with fun music and theming around Halloween. So they do that. And then the last one is Guardians of the Galaxy, which used to be Tower of Terror. [00:07:45.380] - Kim Tate It gets a makeover at night. So kind of later afternoon evenings, it becomes Guardians of the Galaxy, Monsters after dark. And so the theming of the ride, like the story that you see on the screens and the music changes, and it can be pretty intense and scary, I think, for some people. So anyway, that's kind of the thing at Disneyland, but the OG Boogie bash party is something different. And that's what I showed your picture of. Yeah. [00:08:10.200] - Tamara Gruber Well, I mean, Tower of Terror or Guardians of the Galaxy. The attraction itself is scary to me with that one. [00:08:18.930] - Kim Tate I know. I see that one I can't handle. My stomach can't handle it. [00:08:23.210] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So how long do they keep that theming before they switch over to Christmas stuff? [00:08:28.900] - Kim Tate so this actually is ending October 31 for the season. Sometimes it goes to the first day or two of November. I think it depends on how the week falls, but there's a chance you'll see some stuff. Still, if you're there on November 1 as they take it down. But they're pretty good about getting those holiday things up. And then right back down and then the Halloween decorations will be gone. And then you'll have until about the second week of November. I think this year it's November 12 is when the holiday overlay starts happening and kind of comes alive. [00:09:02.960] - Kim Tate And then they'll have some festival, the holidays, events that celebrate not just Christmas. So they tried to bring in like Hannukkah and Kwanza and Three Kings Day, so they're trying to make it a little more open to everyone. And then they also just launched this brand new party thing. It's just kind of like the Oogie Boogie bash party called Merriest Nights, which is a ticketed event. There's still a couple of tickets for two days open for that one. So if you did want to do holidays in Disneyland, you could look into that. [00:09:31.820] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:09:32.510] - Kim Tate So there's a little about ten to 14 days that you get the parks without anything. And then it goes from Halloween time to Christmas time. Or I guess I should say holiday time, out of time, festive season, winter festivities. Yeah. [00:09:50.540] - Tamara Gruber And they do some similar things, but different at Walt Disney World, right? [00:09:54.870] - Kim Tate Yeah. So the big news with Walt Disney World right now, they are doing like a boo bash thing. That's an after hour ticketed event. I haven't heard as much about it. I don't know how big of a hit it was. And then they normally do some kind of Christmas thing. They've announced a few things down there. But the big news for Disney World right now is that October 1 is the start of their 50th anniversary celebration, and they've kind of gone all in on decor and merchandise and special things around that. [00:10:23.730] - Kim Tate So if you are headed to Florida and Walt Disney World this fall and winter, you'll be kind of looking at that 50th anniversary. Definitely. Check out the two Halloween and winter holiday activities that they have and parties. [00:10:39.310] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. It's good to know, too, that you need to plan in advance for some of these, or at least you might get lucky with some tickets, but it makes sense to try to think ahead. [00:10:48.730] - Kim Tate Yeah, especially since you have to make reservations for all the park. Still. So you still have to be making you buy your tickets and make your park day reservations and stuff. And park hopping is very limited. So you pick the park, you're going to start it, and then you can't go to another park until 01:00 p.m.. I'm not quite sure on the timing at Walt Disney World. [00:11:08.590] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's even more complicated. [00:11:11.280] - Kim Tate More exactly, even more planning than it already has been. But, yeah, that's just a little bit of fall holidays. But what about in your neck of the Woods, about fall seasonal stuff? What kind of things are you for? Travel wise? What do you know about what do you hear about? [00:11:30.200] - Tamara Gruber Well, we're kind of in that time where everybody wants to go all type of fall here in New England, but I just got back from a trip to the Finger Lakes in New York, and that's definitely a great destination. We were there for the grape harvest. You know, it always varies a little bit on timing when that's going to be, but definitely a fun time. And we have a beautiful weekend. It was low 70s or high 60s, but sunny, and it was just such a perfect we I went with two of my College friends, and we had a blast because I've talked about the Finger Lakes before. [00:12:06.840] - Tamara Gruber This time I stayed in Ithaca. I was actually hosted at Hotel Ithaca in downtown Ithaca, which is home to Cornell and Ithaca College. It has that College town vibe. In the past, I've stayed at on a different Lake. I've stayed Ithaca right near Cayuga Lake, and in the past I've stayed at Watkins Glen, which is on Seneca Lake. And then one time, I took Hannah to the Finger Lakes, and we stayed in Hammondsport or Corning, which is on Keuka Lake. So there's actually eleven Lakes in the Finger Lakes region, and there's over 100 wineries. [00:12:39.510] - Tamara Gruber And there's also a ton of craft breweries. There's distilleries, there's tons of cideries, there's tons of farms. So we did a really nice mix of, like, some wine tasting. And we also went to a cider place. But we also did agritourism types of things because it's beautiful up there. It's kind of like a little bit hilly between the Lakes. So there's so many farms or wineries where you're looking down a gentle slope to the Lake in the distance. It just gives such a pretty backdrop. And the leaves there are just starting to change. [00:13:12.610] - Tamara Gruber So I think in the next couple of weeks, it's going to be really nice. We started with a boat tour with Discover Cayuga Lake, and that was like a little sunset cruise. They do a whole bunch of different Eco cruises. And then the next day, we went to their farmers market in Ithaca, which is like amazing tons of food and beautiful produce. Wineries, cideries, honey, there's local apiaries, so many nice things. We picked up some breakfast there and sat at a picnic table by the Lake and just enjoyed that. [00:13:45.400] - Tamara Gruber And then we did a couple of tastings at wineries like a pairing with everyone had a charcuterie board, too. And it was just like a really nicely paced, like, really good, relaxing, enjoyable pairing. And then we did a blind tasting somewhere, which is a lot of fun. And then we visited a goat farm. And then yesterday we went to an alpaca farm. I don't know if you got a chance to see my Instagram stories on that, but they're so cute. [00:14:13.240] - Kim Tate Sweet. Did you buy some alpaca socks or Wolf? [00:14:17.760] - Tamara Gruber I bought plenty. I had held back at the farmers market and all these other places, but then I was like, okay, I'm supporting the economy right here, which is nice because it's a family on farm. We had signed up to do a farm tour and to take the alpacas for a walk. And I can just say from a wellness perspective, getting to see and interact with really cute, adorable animals is just really nice. It gives such a good feeling, right? Yeah. But yes, I bought a hat, which maybe I'll bring with me to Portugal. [00:14:51.940] - Tamara Gruber Maybe you'll get to see it. I bought a little scarf. I bought this adorable little fluff ball thing that looks like an alpaca for Hannah, because that was the one thing I always say these days. She's not very jealous of when I go away and do things like she still enjoys when we get to do things together. But she's so busy and stuff going on with her own life that she's not like, oh, I wish I could come with the one. I told her I was going to an Alpaca farm. [00:15:16.990] - Tamara Gruber She's like, Can you send me pictures? [00:15:20.020] - Kim Tate Well, I'm jealous. Definitely. I can't wait to see your hat. I hope you do bring it because is it like a felted wool hat? [00:15:26.650] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's kind of. I don't know what kind of like a news boy hat. [00:15:31.760] - Kim Tate Oh, yes. I don't know what that's called. The sweeper. [00:15:37.760] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:15:38.430] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:15:39.450] - Tamara Gruber I'm not a fashion person, as you know, I'm not a fashion person. [00:15:42.030] - Kim Tate But I know I should know what that's called, but I can't think of it right now. Okay, cool. [00:15:46.230] - Tamara Gruber So that's definitely one great destination. And I can see just from the traffic on my website. Like, what the other popular things to do are. I think even back to last year, last year, we did some family glamping, and I did some glamping on my own, and I think that that's a really nice time to do it before it gets too cold. The nights are crisp and the days are nice. You're not, like sweating in the tent. It's kind of perfect camping or glamping. [00:16:15.590] - Kim Tate Kind of want the fires at night and stuff. [00:16:18.550] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. So I think that's a really fun thing to do now. And there's so many places to do that now. I have a whole post on my website about places to go glamping in New England and new ones keep cropping up, which is great. But I know Vermont and New Hampshire are super popular. I think some people come a little bit too late, so just keep track of every state puts out a fall foliage kind of tracker. I have a blog post on my website about following road trips in New England, and I have links to each of those state trackers, so you can see when they expect it to be peak and stuff like that. [00:16:56.060] - Tamara Gruber But basically the further north you go, the early it's going to be. So things are starting to really pop right now in New Hampshire, in Vermont and Maine, and that's going to continue to kind of work its way south. So one of the things that we like to do is in New Hampshire, there's a scenic drive called the Kancamagus Highway, and I have a post about all the scenic spots to stop along there. [00:17:23.560] Nice. [00:17:24.040] - Tamara Gruber And that is now kind of doing really well on the website. And I have a post about New York road trips to take in the fall and Vermont. I know I've been getting a lot of messages from people like, what should I do in Vermont? All of how many people are open to and yeah, exactly. The thing to think about, though, is that it's total leaf peeping season, and it is hard to find hotels on certain weekends, especially the three day weekend in October can be really tough. [00:17:55.110] - Tamara Gruber So you might need to, you know, try to search early. It's a little bit late for that, but try to look for maybe Airbnb or VRBO or the Glamping and things like that to try to find some alternatives cool or just plan for 220 and 22. What about by you? Do you have other I mean, I'm sure between, like, Apple season and wine harvest, you must have so many great places to go for fall by you as well. [00:18:19.280] - Kim Tate I was going to say I think Washington State is definitely a big gem for October trips or fall seasonal trips, especially people think about New England, but if you look, it's latitude, right? Not longitude. Yeah. Latitudes. We're kind of similar. And even though we are like the evergreen state, there's a lot of aspens and poplars and Maple trees out here, and we get some beautiful fall colors mixed in with the green trees. So I definitely think that in Washington State, October is also just a really nice temperature. [00:18:53.680] - Kim Tate If you want to do hiking or drives, you definitely do have to prepare for dreary weather. I'll call it because it's not necessarily always rainy. But dreary is definitely the right word. And fall is when we do get most of our wind storms. We don't have, like, thunderstorms like I grew up with in the Midwest. But we have these massive wind storms, and that normally is in the fall when that can be a problem. So that is something to keep in mind. But otherwise, it's just so nice here. [00:19:24.150] - Kim Tate The temperatures are so mild, and it's like you said, with glamping and things. It's cool in the evenings, but can kind of get a little warm in the in the daytime, but not too much. It depends how much of the cloud cover Burns off. But I think kind of like with the Finger Lakes. The big thing out here is the fact that it's harvest season. And there are a lot of fall festivals and wine crushing events. And I know that Chelan, which is a very popular vacation destination for Seattle people. [00:19:52.630] - Kim Tate It's kind of a Lake community destination out here. And they have a massive fall festival that lasts from October through Thanksgiving. And so you can find stuff happening all the time there with different vendors and activities and things like that. And they have, like, an evening. They have family events during the day, and then they have these evening haunted things as well. So it's kind of a big destination. So if you're in Washington state, Chelan is kind of a big thing. And then, of course, some people may have heard of the little town of Leavenworth, which is a Bavarian village out here in Washington. [00:20:26.820] - Kim Tate It's about, I'd say, about 2 hours from Seattle, probably it depends what traffic's like. And when you're going. And it is known for first, it's October Fest because of the fact that it's a Bavarian town. So it's very German inspired. And they do a big October festival. But then they also do a big holiday lights festival and that's very popular local. So those are kind of the main things I'm thinking about here, of course, like you said, with apples, there's a lot of cider events happening. [00:20:56.800] - Kim Tate So if you like to drink cider, Washington State is a great place for that as well. And I think Oregon is pretty big in breweries and cideries and stuff as well. And of course, they have their whole Willamette Valley for wine. So they're pretty big as well in the fall embibing travel. Maybe that should be a term. But yeah. So those are kind of the big things that I can think of. I've heard also that I am not a fan of mushrooms, but supposedly Washington has a big mushroom festival as well. [00:21:28.850] - Kim Tate I guess October is a good mushroom season. So if you know. [00:21:32.620] - Tamara Gruber A and the Finger Lakes, there is a mushroom spirits distillery. Okay. I don't know much about distilleries. You know, obviously, they're they're made from many different things from vodkas. [00:21:43.720] - Kim Tate Potatoes, but you never know exactly like. [00:21:46.770] - Tamara Gruber I don't know what that would be like. [00:21:49.050] - Kim Tate No idea. [00:21:49.570] - Tamara Gruber I also saw that they were having an Apple Fest in Ithaca, like next weekend. Definitely. The Apple Fest is huge. Yeah. [00:21:58.330] - Kim Tate We also have Washington state and even in Oregon and stuff. It's really, really big. I know you have this on the East Coast too, but pumpkin patches and corn mazes. It's just huge. Like I mentioned with when I was talking about what the kids do with the haunted corn maze and all that stuff. It's insane. In our little area. We have probably seven pumpkin patches and corn maze and stuff we could choose to go to. So, I mean, some are definitely bigger than others, but it's a huge thing out here in Washington are the at least at Western Washington is the pumpkin patches and all that stuff. [00:22:31.820] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's definitely big here, too. We have were small state, but we have quite a few in Rhode Island, and then in Massachusetts, there's some super massive ones. I remember taking Hannah to one in Rhode Island, one where the parents didn't go in. We kind of stood outside and chatted, and then we're like, it's been a really long time. Are they ever going to make their way out? But that wasn't haunted. It was just during the day, regular regular comes. But yeah, there's so many fun things to do. [00:23:01.620] - Tamara Gruber It's outside and a lot of the farms by us. They'll bring in food trucks and live music and sometimes like, little kiddie rides. You definitely do the wagon rides into the pumpkin patch. [00:23:14.380] - Kim Tate Hay rides, and there's normally some animal. [00:23:18.700] - Tamara Gruber Some cows, petting Zoo kind of thing. And then there's all kinds of great baked goods. And I love this time of year. I will still always love summer more, and I try to really get out and appreciate fall when I can, because it's just so short for us. September through mid to late. October is beautiful. You still see blue skies. The weather is great. This year has been fantastic, but by November it's Brown and Gray, so it's over. It's done. So I try to take it in as much as I can. [00:23:57.470] - Tamara Gruber Now, even I'm sitting here looking at my window, like, Why didn't I go for a walk out? [00:24:02.190] - Kim Tate You can still go. [00:24:03.970] - Tamara Gruber I know. I have to get work. [00:24:06.440] - Kim Tate I can still go. I'm with you. I definitely prefer summer. And being in Seattle, we don't have that nice blue sky. Fall day in Seattle is celebrated as if it's the best thing in the world because it's when the cloud cover definitely moves in. So that is one kind of bummer, but we definitely keep our green. I mean, I love the fact that we have green trees all year round, so there's a payoff to it. [00:24:35.080] - Tamara Gruber Well, I think for people that are looking for some fall color and stuff a little bit later in the season because I've had people reach out to me like, we're coming to Boston in November and where can we see the best? I'm like over one, but you think about a Great Smoky Mountain National Park and so many parts of Tennessee, North Carolina, the Northern Georgia mountains that gets it in Yosemite and stuff as well. That too. [00:25:02.710] - Kim Tate It's absolutely gorgeous in the fall. [00:25:04.880] - Tamara Gruber And I know you mentioned Aspens. I definitely see, like in Colorado, they are really popping right now. [00:25:09.560] - Kim Tate Like, Vail is gorgeous right now. [00:25:11.510] - Tamara Gruber Not everything is on our time schedule since we're up here further to the north. [00:25:18.480] - Kim Tate Well, and then we headed in November will be heading down to Arizona. And so for those people who are looking to start escaping that dreary winter, moving in the south, especially Arizona in the fall can be amazing. I'm looking forward to spending a few hours by the pool with you. [00:25:38.460] - Tamara Gruber I'm kind of hoping that this year we can go back to previous years where I can escape my drink Gray dreary winter with some Sunshine if you the winter. So, knock wood, because Arizona. And then we're supposed to, as I mentioned, go to Aruba, and then we'll see how it all goes. But I really look forward to those little bits of Sunshine in the middle of the cold is that we have well. [00:26:05.800] - Kim Tate And for those people that are looking for that are into cruising. I know Thanksgiving cruises are very popular. I do feel like they're doing limited capacity on ships because it seems like prices are not really moving on cruises. You're not going to be getting a steal of a deal. And I think getting to choose your cabin, it's going to be limited as well. But I don't know how long that's going to be kept up, but cruising is always kind of a fun fall getaway because you normally head somewhere warm. [00:26:34.980] - Kim Tate I know the fall is really popular for a lot of Seattle people. They go down to Cabo and that area of Mexico in the fall. [00:26:41.980] - Tamara Gruber So here's to a good fall. I feel like I need to go pour myself some Apple cider right now. [00:26:47.830] - Kim Tate I'm jealous of the Apple cider Donuts. Do you know that I've never had Apple cider? [00:26:51.550] - Tamara Gruber Donuts? [00:26:51.940] - Kim Tate I don't think I ever have, and I would love them. They sound amazing. I've had pumpkin spice Donuts and I've had lots of fresh Apple cider, but Apple cider Donuts. I don't think I've ever had one. [00:27:01.480] - Tamara Gruber See, now I'm going to see you soon, and I would happily bring you some Apple cider Donuts. But I will say there are nothing like getting a hot, fresh, fresh one cider donut. So can you just come visit me next fall? Yes, I will have to. [00:27:16.960] - Kim Tate That's a plan. Let's make it happen. 2022 New England or Bust. Yeah. [00:27:22.400] - Tamara Gruber New England. You should see New England in the fall for sure. [00:27:26.030] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. [00:27:26.990] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:27:27.530] - Kim Tate Well, you'll be my tour guide, so I think we can make that happen. It's always so busy. Like I just got back from a trip. And why is the fall always so busy with work? [00:27:37.210] - Tamara Gruber Stuff. I know as excited as I am about Portugal. And I know that we're going to get a little taste of all there, too, because we're going to be there during their wine harvest. And we're going to get to in some of those wine events. And for those of you that are listening, pop over to Instagram and check out our Instagram accounts because we're going to be doing some really cool things, like hot air balloon and some very special wine events. And so staying at some really interesting, amazing hotels sounds like it's going to be awesome. [00:28:09.740] - Kim Tate We're staying at some amazing places we are staying at. Now. This will give you guys a little idea, like work is work, and it's not always vacation. But we are staying at a new hotel almost every day. I think there's two times that we stay at a hotel two nights. Yeah. And we're there for 17 days. So just so you guys know, we are going to be sharing a lot. And we're not just in Lisbon, we're going to Porto and the sorts and Lisbon and and we're going to see a lot of the country. [00:28:40.580] - Tamara Gruber And I think people are kind of used to seeing certain pictures from Lisbon in particular. And I no Porto is very popular as well. But we're going to get out into the countryside and show you and be able to help figure out what are the great itineraries to do. How can you organize it? So you're not visit our not a new hotel every night? [00:29:01.640] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:29:02.180] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. [00:29:02.740] - Kim Tate Well. And also knowing it to be a situation where it's like, what's worth? What are these gems that you're not realizing so that you're not just the standard tourists going to the Portugal is an amazing country. And so I'm so excited to get a feel for more of this country that I've already fallen in love with. And so I'm really excited about that and being able to share kind of the other because I think you and I have always said that there needs to be this balance with doing the standard touristy stuff. [00:29:29.280] - Kim Tate It's a touristy thing for a reason. Most of the time it's worthwhile. And some you don't want to not see it. But you need to balance that with some more, not even off the beaten path, but more things that you wouldn't necessarily know about or think about. And that's why I'm so glad that we're working with the epic travel people because they're on the ground there, and they have all those little gems that they can help put us on that you and I I don't think we wouldn't necessarily have known to look for I'm really excited. [00:29:56.480] - Tamara Gruber So of the regions we're on top of mind. Right. And then we're doing something like one of the big products in Portugal is cork. And so we're going to do a cork trekking hike. I can't wait where we're going to go and look and see how they would harvest it. [00:30:16.380] - Tamara Gruber So there's so many interesting things, like digging deeper, traveling in a way that really gets to know the culture and totally up our alley. I'm super excited. So I know we were talking all about fall, and my whole point was as excited as I am about Portugal. I'm missing out on some of the best part of here in New England, but I'll take it. I agreed. [00:30:39.170] - Kim Tate I mean, everything I'm looking at, it sounds like Portugal is going to be an amazing October destination. So if any of you are listening and thinking about October trips, definitely be following along Tamara again is @we3travel and I'm @stuffedsuitcase, and we will be sharing because from the research I'm doing, it seems seems like a great time to go. [00:30:58.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Definitely follow along when we come back. Our next episode is going to be all about our Portugal trip. So hopefully you'll follow along and then you'll want to hear even more about it. So you'll tune in next time. [00:31:13.160] - Kim Tate Well, thanks for joining us, as always, and we hope that you have some wonderful fall travels or local adventures planned ahead. Tchau.

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198 Hotel Loyalty Programs

A Healthy Bite - ThatOrganicMom

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2021 53:16

You know how you always hear people talking about getting free stays at hotels or status perks? How do they do that? Find out! This week on the podcast we talk road warrior Ed Pizza from the Miles to Go podcast about the best hotel loyalty programs for families and ways to earn status and free hotel stays. About Our Sponsor: Room Steals Today's episode is sponsored by Room Steals. Listeners may remember Room Steals from our discussion on finding hotel deals in Episode 185, but Room Steals is a Chrome browser extension that works alongside existing booking sites to show you what the wholesale price is for that room. Just install the browser extension and search for a hotel as you usually would on Hotels.com, Booking.com, Expedia, or Google. Once you've done your initial search, Room Steals will show you in a pop-up if that same room is available for less. If it is, you can click on that pop-up and book it directly through Room Steals. Downloading and using Room Steals is free; however, if you want to book a discounted room you have to pay an annual membership fee. Listeners can save 20% off the annual membership fee with promo code vacationmavens. If you travel multiple times in a year, the subscription will quickly pay for itself. One listener already saved $400 using Room Steals on her first booking! To learn more, visit roomsteals.com. That's roomsteals.com and use promo code vacationmavens to save 20% off your membership to Room Steals, and we thank them for their support. About Ed Pizza Ed Pizza is a road warrior and family traveler. When we're not in the middle of a pandemic he travels 100,000 miles a year for work. His family loves luxury travel, all things Disney and even bought an RV during the pandemic. You can check out his podcast, Miles to Go, the same places you catch Vacation Mavens and you can find him writing about travel at pizzainmotion.com. Best Hotel Loyalty Programs for Families Hyatt offers the best loyalty program for families as it is easier to earn and use points (you need fewer points to redeem for a free night than other programs) and they offer great family-friendly perks like free breakfast, guaranteed late check out, and, if you have status with them, the concierge is good at guaranteeing connecting rooms or confirming suite upgrades in advance. The only challenge with Hyatt is that they don't have as large of a footprint as Hilton or Marriott, especially if you are traveling to smaller destinations. Hyatt does have a number of family-friendly brands including Hyatt Place on the lower end and Hyatt House for suites. A few terrific Hyatt properties in popular family travel destinations include: Hyatt Grand Cypress (outside of Disney), Ziva Resorts in Mexico, Costa Rica, and the Caribbean, the Hyatt Regency Sydney in Australia (which is more affordable than the Park Hyatt Sydney but still has amazing views), Grand Hyatt Bahia Mar in the Bahamas, and the Driscoll in Austin. Wyndham also is an excellent choice for families. In addition to the hotels, you can use points at many of their vacation rental or timeshare properties, which offer so much more room for families. Wyndham also has a partnership with Vacasa for vacation home rentals. Some great Wyndham properties include the Magic Villages in Orlando, ski lodges and log cabins in Montana, and great properties overseas. Wyndham now has a credit card through Barclay's that helps you earn points and they have bonus points on things like utility bills, which you don't find elsewhere. Hilton has some pros and cons for their loyalty programs. Hilton values treating folks well on award stays and they don't add resort fees, unlike some other programs that still charge fees on free stays. Hilton also gives away a lot of points for stays and through their credit card. The footprint isn't as big as Marriott but larger than Hyatt. Hilton Honors Gold members also receive little perks like free bottles of water at check in and free WiFi. However, Hilton recently rolled back their free breakfast offer for members (at least temporarily). Instead there will be a credit per day to use as you want (drinks from the bar, meals, etc), however it wouldn't typically cover everything that you would get at a free breakfast. Marriott has the largest footprint, but they do charge fees like resort fees and parking on award stays. IHG (which includes Holiday Inn, Intercontinental, Hotel Indigo, etc) doesn't offer as much as the other brands but can be good if you do a lot of road tripping and then redeeming points for stays overseas at classic, boutique hotels. Unless you are a road warrior traveling frequently on business, the best way to earn points is through a credit card. Instead of using the brand specific credit card, it is better to use a credit card with programs like Chase Ultimate Rewards or American Express Membership Rewards that you can transfer points to hotels to book award stays. Chase offers a bit more flexibility and value over Amex. When you transfer points, it is often 1:1 transfer so you will get more bang for your points if you transfer to a program like Hyatt where your points go further. If you are going to stay with a specific brand often, a hotel credit card can get you to the next status tier (and related perks) faster and you will often get one free hotel stay certificate per year. You need to make sure you are using the value of the cost of the annual fee. Generally it makes sense to pay for your hotel stays with that card but you will get more points per dollar for other types of stays from other types of cards. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.000] - Kim Tate Which hotels deserve your loyalty? Stay tuned to find out. [00:00:15.290] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:29.940] - Kim Tate Today's episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Room Steals. You guys may have already heard of it. Room Steals is a browser extension that you add to Chrome, so that when you're shopping for the next hotel for your vacation, you can see if you are really getting the best rate. You plug in your destination on one of the major booking engines, whether it's Expedia or Travelocity or booking.com or hotels.com, and a window will pop up, letting you know if they found a better deal for you. [00:00:55.810] - Kim Tate The program is free to use, so you can always see and shop and figure out if the there is a better deal out there. And if you do spot a better deal, you can book it through the Room Steals site where there is an annual membership fee. But our listeners get to save on their annual membership fee with the code vacationmavens, they can save 20%. [00:01:14.110] - Tamara Gruber So I was just researching some potential hotels in Dublin in Ireland because we're still trying to figure out where to take Hannah for her graduation trip. And that's one option. And I was going through some of these options because I really want it to be like, nice hotels, like special hotel in for this trip. But obviously I would always like to save some money. So I found one on Room Steals where I could save $142 and then another one where I could save $60. So it's like all these things could add up over the course of a big trip. [00:01:46.570] - Tamara Gruber So it's like even just that one hotel stay would be saving more than the cost of the membership. So I definitely encourage everyone to go check out Room Steals. Like Kim said, it is a browser extension that you can download add to Chrome. And then when you're searching for hotels, you're able to see whether or not there's a deal that you'd like to take advantage of. And just remember, check out Room steals. Com. You can sign up using Code vacationmavens all one word, all lowercase and save 20%, and we thank them for their support. [00:02:15.280] - Kim Tate So Tamara talking about hotels and getting deals through Room Steals. Today we are going to talk with a guest that we've had on before, and he's one of my favorite savvy travel guys. And that's Ed Pizza. [00:02:27.960] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So he travels so so much every year, he knows all the hotels, all the programs, what the best deals are, what the best credit cards are, and he's going to share all of his knowledge. So I can't wait to jump into that interview. [00:02:40.540] - Kim Tate Let's chat with him. [00:02:49.470] - Tamara Gruber So today we're here with Ed Pizza. He's a road warrior, and family traveler. And when we're not in the middle of a pandemic, he travels 100,000 miles a year for work. His family loves luxury travel, all things Disney, and even bought an RV during the pandemic. You can check out his podcast Miles to go at the same places you can catch vacation, mavens. And you can also find him writing about traveling a pizza in motion dot com. So Ed, welcome back to the podcast. [00:03:15.640] - Ed Pizza Hey, thanks for having me back, guys. It's been a while and I'm excited to be back on talking stuff. [00:03:20.110] - Tamara Gruber I know you're back traveling a little bit for work, but how long did you go without being on an airplane? [00:03:25.780] - Ed Pizza So I was actually in New Zealand helping a friend on the Tarmac when the US announced that they were closing arrivals to Europeans. And that was me coming back into the country. So that was called like, March 14 ish. And I didn't get back on a plane. That was March 14, 2020. Sorry, I didn't get back on a plane until early June 2021, but I have been ramping things up, and I think it's interesting that if you guys hadn't reached doubt to have me come podcast, I was almost going to reach out to you guys because we're following this parallel track and that I spent a couple of weeks in Maine, I think right before you did, Sarah and I just finished coming back across the Canadian border on the east side, Kim to your west. [00:04:11.260] - Kim Tate Nice. [00:04:13.150] - Ed Pizza So a little bit of family travel, mostly road warrior stuff. [00:04:18.470] - Kim Tate Especially now that you have an RV that you were one of the many that jumped into that lifestyle. I've seen some of your things that's kind of funny how you're like, I'm embracing this for my family, but I am not embracing this. This is what I want to do with my life. [00:04:33.000] - Ed Pizza Yeah. I mean, as I've said jokingly a number of times if it happened to burn to the ground and I got an insurance settlement, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But the kids and you guys know that your kids are older than mine. And so I think you probably have a better grasp of this than I do. You wake up at some point and you realize that they're going to College and you're like, Well, did I fill up the bucket enough? And our kids still love both of us. [00:04:59.150] - Ed Pizza My wife and I, and they like being with us. And they really love the camping thing. And so as much as I grumble and say bad words, sometimes when things break, which is pretty much every time we roll it anywhere, the memories that they're creating with us, I hope, will be things that when they get to College, it's, wow. That's in the bucket of things that I love doing as a kid. [00:05:21.850] - Tamara Gruber That's good. You speaking to my heart there. [00:05:24.870] - Kim Tate I was going to say Tamara and I are both right there because we both have girls going off to College. As you've probably heard, we're definitely in that wondering how we can keep scraping some more trips in there and then hoping that the College schedules will allow us to keep traveling and that our kids will keep traveling with us through those four years as well, at least for me. [00:05:47.390] - Ed Pizza And I know it's not what we're talking about today, but I think a really good point to make that I've obviously seen with the way that both of you guys travel with your family is that we all make memories in a variety of different ways. But we've all chosen travel as one of those primary ways to create those memories. And just like you, I'm hoping that the work that we put in for travel up until our daughter is a sophomore in high school. Now I'm hopeful that when she gets into College, it'll be, hey, I'd love to go take a Disney trip. [00:06:18.940] - Ed Pizza Hey, dad, mom, do you want to go or, hey, I love Lisbon. Or can we go visit Peggy's Cove in Canada? Whatever that there's a powerful enough connection to a place that they've been. They're like, I want to go and I want to go with mom and dad. [00:06:32.830] - Tamara Gruber I was just thinking mine is talking about the road trip that she wants to do with her friends post graduation, but I know she'll come back to our trips as well. [00:06:41.510] - Kim Tate Definitely. I think we're in that same boat, Tamara. So if you're listening to this and like, do you have a few more years? Definitely. Don't worry about I spent so many summers not planning and stuff because I hated crowds and also because we have such nice summers here in Seattle. But I now kind of regret not using that summertime more efficiently. Although we did take a lot of family trips and visited family and had family here. So I guess it was well used, but definitely maximize your time off with your kids. [00:07:13.940] - Tamara Gruber Well, speaking of traveling with kids and planning and thinking ahead and all of that, one of the ways that we've gotten to travel a little bit more or structure our budget a little bit more is using hotel loyalty programs and trying to maximize some free nights here and there. And I was thinking about which programs are really best for families. And I know a lot of programs have changed recently. And Ed, you came to mind because I know on your Miles to Go, you talk about this a lot, and I think I might know the answer. [00:07:47.180] - Tamara Gruber But when it comes to hotel loyalty programs, what one do you really like for families? So not business travelers, but really for families. [00:07:56.600] - Ed Pizza I'm going to give you my favorite. And then if we have time later, I'm going to give you my sleeper because I think there's someone coming up on the outside turn that maybe doesn't become my favorite, but it started to earn their keep above some of the other chains. But for me, it's it. And for many years it was starwood preferred guest before Marriott bought them because they understood that road warriors have husbands, wives, significant others, in a lot of cases, kids. And they want to take care of those other people because that makes that means the business traveler want to patronize them and high. [00:08:29.570] - Ed Pizza It just where they really get this right, and they get it right in a number of different ways. But I think primarily it's in reducing friction for family travel. So when we think about a family of three or four, we don't all live in one room at home. We certainly don't share one bathroom, especially with a teenage daughter. So being able to have space when we travel, it is huge. And it has benefits like being able to request and confirm a suite upgrade at the time of booking, which is unique amongst the major hotel chains. [00:09:00.780] - Ed Pizza And you say, well, if I know ahead of time where I can get that extra space for my family, that helps drive where we might choose to go on vacation. And there are a lot of other benefits to the world Hyatt program that I think make things easier for families, things like free breakfast, guaranteed late checkout, just things that make it easier for when family travel goes sideways, which the younger your kids are, the more frequently that happens. [00:09:23.820] - Tamara Gruber 100% agree. My husband was ambassador level with Marriott for a while, and he had these five suite upgrades of a year or something to use. And we were looking to book a suite in Amsterdam. I think it was and we like you we want the space. It's all about having a little extra space, not being crammed into those two double beds in particular. And we wanted to book this week, but we're like, do we actually pay for it, or do we take the risk that we can use one of these upgrades and not being able to confirm that, you know, you have that upgrade. [00:09:58.620] - Tamara Gruber It makes such a difference because you're making a totally different choice. And of course, we ended up just doing an Airbnb instead. [00:10:03.840] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And especially when you talk about families in Europe in that the restrictions on the number of people in a room are very different from the US. There are plenty of rooms in Europe where two is the Max Occupancy and a flu or three same in Asia. So that's a complication. And I think one of the things you mentioned, Marriott Ambassador, and I had a Marriott ambassador for a long time. In the beginning, they were great at communicating with the properties and they could advocate on your behalf. [00:10:31.470] - Ed Pizza But I'll be honest with you. For me, at least one of the biggest benefits that world of Hyatt provides for me. I have their equivalent. It's called my Hyatt concierge as part of their globalist status. It isn't even necessarily the suite upgrades. Those are great. And who doesn't love a big plus room with an awesome view and all that stuff? But for me, it can really be as simple as can you just guarantee me connecting rooms? My kids are younger, like we just want connecting rooms. [00:10:56.420] - Ed Pizza I don't need something fancy, and my Hyatt concierge would always contact the property early on my behalf, and they would work with the property to block rooms. And I can say, honest to God, I very rarely use the words always or never. In the ten or so years I've been top tier status with Hyatt, I've never shown up at a property that promised me connecting rooms ahead of time and not gotten them. And as a family traveler, that's huge. I need just a few times a year, but when I need it, I need it and they always say yes, we're going to take care of you. [00:11:29.720] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, Hyatt is not a property or a brand that I get to stay at a lot. There aren't quite as many. I think that's one of the problems that people run into. But when I've had an opportunity to stay at a Hyatt place just in terms of the lower tier, I was kind of amazed. I love this setup where it has kind of a partial dividing wall between the bed and the sitting area with the pullout couch. So when you have a younger child, you have that little bit of that separation of space without going for the larger suite or two rooms. [00:11:59.390] - Tamara Gruber So another benefit to me are some of the Hyatt brands that people may not be familiar with. [00:12:04.310] - Ed Pizza Yeah, no, I agree. And I think Hyatt House is another brand of there where they have multiple room suites. And I've had a reasonable amount of luck in contacting a property ahead of time through the concierge and asking even though it wasn't, isn't a published benefit to say, hey, can I use a suite upgrade certificate to just get a two bedroom unit instead of a one bedroom? And very rarely I've been told no for things like that. So I think it's the flexibility that they work with folks on. [00:12:30.320] - Ed Pizza It's not that Marriott or Hilton or anything to change doesn't have fabulous, unbelievable properties. I think it's for family travelers and for specific needs. We just need a little bit more flexibility at times. And Hyatt works hard to give that that's nice. [00:12:46.630] - Kim Tate I've heard a few other people that are kind of in the point space. They just love Hyatt. I'll admit, one of the things that's kept me from just going all in on them. I find I have a harder time finding properties where if you're doing like a road tripping type family or something like that, those Marriott properties, it seems like everywhere you go there's a Fairfield Inn. So that is one thing that I have noticed. Do you think there's any limitations on property availability with Hyatts? And then do you have any favorite property within that program that you think are great for families to check out if they're looking for a kind of hotel destination? [00:13:23.000] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And I think that's a fair criticism of Hyatt. If there is one is that they don't have the third tier city when you're going to visit friends and family when you're going to visit Grandma, if you're road tripping in the US, that's certainly an area where they're weaker than the other chains. They've expanded their footprint through really interesting partnerships. They have a big partnership with small luxury hotels of the world, which means that they now have over a dozen properties in Italy where they used to have one, and they things of that nature. [00:13:54.090] - Ed Pizza But as you say, I always use Williamsburg, Virginia, sort of my textbook example of the comparison between Marriott Hyatt, and each person will choose what's most important to them. Williamsburg, Virginia, Colonial, Williamsburg, Busch Gardens, all that stuff. It's a family destination. Not far from my house. There are zero Hyatts. There are no limited service properties. There are five Marriotts. They're all kind of dingy, but there are five properties there. And so the choice I make when my family goes to Williamsburg is do we drive 45 minutes from a very new Hyatt place, or do we stay right there at one of the Marriotts? [00:14:28.410] - Ed Pizza That's convenient, but not as nice as property, and I don't know that there's a right answer for that. I think every family makes that decision. But if you're going to make a compromise at times, that's the compromise you'd make with a road tripping in the US where I think they have some really specific fits, though, that work well for families. As you mentioned, what are some of my favorite properties? First and foremost, I think Hyatt Regency Grand Cypress, just outside the gates at Disney World, is a big plus, and it didn't use to be as big a plus. [00:14:57.680] - Ed Pizza But as Disney has reduced the benefits you get from staying on site, the Grand Cypress, it hasn't taken anything away. And beautiful property, tons of space, lots of pools, all that stuff right outside the gates of Disney, so it's easy to get to. I think again, when we think about family travel, Hyatt has a brand called Ziva, which is a family geared, all inclusive brand with properties mostly focused in Mexico and the Caribbean, which on points can be a really great way to go on vacation without spending money, because you could generally redeem points for extra guests in your room as well as the two base guests that are normally included in a reservation. [00:15:36.710] - Ed Pizza So you can actually use points to pay for your meals at an all inclusive with Hyatt, which I think is interesting, and it might not be the best value for everyone. But again, if it's hey, how do we take an extra family vacation every year being able to use points to cover meals? It might mean that your family gets to go rent a catamaran for the day or swim with Dolphins or do some other activity that maybe you didn't have the cash for something like that. [00:16:00.530] - Ed Pizza It's a great choice. And then we were really surprised to go further afield. Everybody, all the bloggers talk about the Park Hyatt Sydney is this unbelievably beautiful property that overlooks the opera house, and it's under the Harbor Bridge in Sydney. And I agree with all those things. I stayed there a few times. It's a wonderful hotel, but right down the road from it is the Hyatt Regency Sydney, which opened up a few years ago. And it's kind of a rooftop lounge up on one of the really high floors. [00:16:26.870] - Ed Pizza And so we were there for a week right before the pandemic in 2019. And by the second day of our stay, everybody in the lounge had memorized not only our kids names but the drinks that they liked in the morning, in the evening and what they like for breakfast. And so my kids were doted on by the lounge grew all included with my room as part of our stay, and they never had to ask for anything. They were doted on. They loved it. And my wife and I could enjoy a cup of coffee or out on the terrace on our own and watch our kids through the glass and watch the staff take care of them. [00:16:59.420] - Ed Pizza And it was a really great way to sort of sneak away for a few minutes as a husband wife while our kids were still with us on this epic trip. [00:17:06.460] - Kim Tate That's important. I think that when you can find a good hotel, they kind of recognize your kids as guests as well. Kids love that. And they remember that for sure. [00:17:15.240] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And I might not get this exactly right because I didn't look it up on the charts before we hopped on to record. But I think it's half the points of the Park Hyatt, which again is a delightful hotel, but it's pricey. And then I think there's other fun things. Grand Hyatt Bahamas is a really huge resort property in the Bahamas. So if you're looking for a way to do something like in Atlantis style property, but using points, I think that's a great choice. And then I'm a sucker for old historical properties. [00:17:43.390] - Ed Pizza So the Driscoll in Austin, Texas, is the Yellow Rose, as they call it, is one of my favorite old historic hotels. That's part of it as well. [00:17:51.240] - Tamara Gruber Does it have a collection like that the way the autograph collection for Marriott or gosh, what's the Hilton one. [00:17:58.350] - Ed Pizza There's so many of those different brand like the Marriott Hilton has spawned all these names for different things of all the brands. And the short answer is not only is the answer yes, but there's a ton of them, and some. Some of my fellow travel bloggers have almost criticized the hits and the merits of the world for having you have too many brands. Those things don't necessarily matter as much to me per se. I guess I understand it to some degree, but at the end the day, I think as travelers and especially family drivers, we're just looking for interesting, unique properties. [00:18:29.110] - Ed Pizza And as long as they come up on the website, I'm all years yet they have their unbound collection. And that was where it started with some recent acquisitions. They sort of added a bunch of other brands, so they fall under a bunch of different names, and I won't list all of them out. But like unbound one destination hotels, Thompson Hotels, a bunch of collections that they've absorbed over the past few years and acquisitions. But I think one of the fun things that hit does is they have what's called a Brand Explorer program. [00:18:57.870] - Ed Pizza I don't quote me on this, but I think there are 15 brands right now across the portfolio and in the boundless portfolio and the independent collections. For every five different brands you visit with it, you earn a free night, and so you can earn up to three free nights by staying at all the different brands. So it's a pretty cool unpublished benefit of it is that every time you chalk up one of these, you're closer to a free night at a high in the world. [00:19:22.760] - Tamara Gruber That's interesting. So they really want you to explore the breath of those brands. I mean, I like those kind of collections because then, you know, you're having something that's maybe historic or at least has character and personality versus your standard Hyatt. Hilton, whatever the generic kind of business hotel cool. That's good to know. Well, I am very intrigued by your hinting at a dark horse. So before we jump into our other questions, what would be your number two? [00:19:51.760] - Ed Pizza Yeah. So I'm not sure if this is my number two, but certainly they're right there in line with Hilton, because I think Hilton's maybe just a smidge ahead of them. But Wyndham redid their credit card portfolio late last year. And honestly, it was one of the things I wasn't paying a ton of attention to and through a mutual friend they had asked about sponsoring the podcast, and I'm generally not somebody who does that sort of thing unless it's a brand that I really support a lot of like, I really want to be into something. [00:20:18.520] - Ed Pizza I was like, Wyndham, it's not my favorite. Could there are a lot of lower to your properties that weren't really my fit. The credit card is really geared up being able to maximize points for earning for families, which I think is a hard thing to do if you're not a road warrior. And where I think they really fit for family travel is they have a huge chunk of vacation rentals. So they have some of their own, quote, unquote vacation rental properties. And they have partnerships with brands like Vacasa. [00:20:47.480] - Ed Pizza I never know if I say that correctly, but because of that, that we think of again, when we think of families, or at least for me, I think of space. And so there's a property in Orlando called Magic Villages, which is a Wyndham property, and you can use your points to redeem for up to a four bedroom luxury condo with pools and all that other stuff that are beautifully appointed, big barbecue grills outside at Zero fridges, all that stuff. And you can do that with points. [00:21:18.200] - Ed Pizza And it's equidistant between Disney World and Universal. And then you've got ski lodges and log cabins in Montana and properties overseas. And so I think when I think about family travel and I think about space and Airbnb and the role it plays and how our family travel world has changed. Wyndham sort of forging this middle ground where they say like, yeah, sure. If you want a Wyndham hotel or one of our other limited service brands like, we got you covered. But if you need more space, you can turn those points into Airbnb ish type rental in hundreds of cities around the world. [00:21:56.270] - Ed Pizza And I think that adds a lot of value for family travelers. Not as much for people who like to travel in a traditional way. But I think family Traveler specifically Wyndhams carving at a niche to say you could earn a bunch of points on our credit cards and you can use them for Airbnb ish type stays around the world. [00:22:12.740] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, that's good. I think about Smugglers Notch in Vermont, which is an amazing family ski resort. I used to be part of Wyndham Vacation Rentals, and I have to double check that it is. And I know I have a friends awesome that really love the property in Orlando and love that space option. Like you mentioned. [00:22:33.490] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And the Smugglers Notch is still a Club Wyndham property. And again, people think of timeshares like, oh, I don't want to buy a Timeshare, and that's a whole other podcast for some other day. But I think Wyndham gives you the ability to stay at those properties and not be a timeshare owner. So I think that's what's unique about the them in Hyatt has a very small collection of those properties time shersh sort of residence club properties. In fact, one of my favorites is in Sedona. It's called the Hyatt Residence Club Pinon Point, not that far from the Grand Canyon, but they only have 15 or 20 of those where Wyndham literally has over 1000 with the Club Wyndham stuff, vacation rentals and the Vacasa partnership. [00:23:14.530] - Ed Pizza So if you like that sort of travel where you're not staying in a hotel and you want a little bit more space, Wyndham is really carved that niche. And before when they didn't have a really robust credit card platform, it was harder to earn a lot of points with them. And now, especially if I'm a small business owner, and I understand that not everybody is that. But if you are a small business owner, some of the stuff that they have bonus categories on are very unique, like utility bills and stuff like that, that definitely aren't for everyone. [00:23:47.230] - Ed Pizza But if you happen to be somebody who as a small business owner and you've got all that stuff, it's a great way. Wait a pile on a ton of points that you're not going to find somewhere else. [00:23:54.620] - Kim Tate And do you know, if Wyndham is a transfer partner of either Chase or Amex it's one of the downsides is that they're not really have that kind of the credit card of their own to their credit cards are issued by Barkley's. [00:24:08.960] - Ed Pizza And I think you guys know some of the Barclay cards they've had over time, but they don't really have a flexible currency. Okay, as you say, with Chase and American Express, and even sort of coming around the bend with City adding like, I a partner like American Airlines to their fold, that in doing the and the Capital One is really up their game. This is the area where I think Barclay's as weakest is that they just don't have that robust transfer network. So you'd have to invest in holding a Wyndham card to earn a bunch of Wyndham points. [00:24:41.800] - Ed Pizza And I might be forgetting some other Wyndham transfer partner out there. And if they're out there, I apologize. I'm definitely not a credit card expert, like some other folks are in the space. I my interest has been peaked in a way that I wasn't expecting. [00:24:55.860] - Kim Tate Well, definitely for families. I can see why that might be appealing. So let's quickly just finish up this little bit of a category and touch base about maybe Hilton, of course, Marriott. Maybe even if we have time, you could mention IHG do you see, what are the pros and cons for any of those three type brands for to show up on their loyalty train. [00:25:20.870] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And I'll try to cover all three quickly. I think they all represent slightly different things. One of the things that I think Hilton has in common with Hyatt is that they value treating folks well on award stays. So things like no resort fees on award stays is a really cool benefit of Hilton that it has as well. I think the benefit for Hilton is massive footprint, easy to earn lots of points. And so you sort of got this world where Marriott has really expensive properties that cost a ton of points, but they don't issue a lot of points you've hired as a smaller footprint, and their properties cost less points. [00:25:57.480] - Ed Pizza And Hilton somewhere in the middle, and that they do have an award chart where the resort property can get pricey, but they give away a lot of points for hotel stays, they give away a lot of points for folks who happen to hold their credit cards. And as you mentioned earlier about road tripping, you can find a Hilton anywhere. Marriott is the same way in terms of footprint size, but they do charge things like resort fees and parking and stuff like that on awards stays, so they're not completely quote, unquote free. [00:26:23.030] - Tamara Gruber Can you explain for our listeners what award stays are? [00:26:26.040] - Ed Pizza Yeah. So if you spend on a credit card or you stay on a paid stay, you earn points in the loyalty program. So if you have a Hilton credit card, you're in Hilton points. If you have a Marriott credit card earning Marriott points, and then there's all the transferable partners, which maybe we find time to talk about today. But as Kim alluded to Chase and American Express, so you build up these points. And those points help get you a free room. And not all points are created equally. [00:26:54.150] - Ed Pizza So we like to say that top tier property at Marriott is 100,000 points and a top tier property that is 30,000 points per night. And so it's a lot easier, cheaper in points to get a free room with it. But they don't quite give the same amount of points per dollar. That's where it gets a little bit like funny money math. But Hilton, like I said, sits in the middle where they give a lot of points for folks who stay on paid nights. And you can also earn a lot of points with bonus categories on their credit cards. [00:27:25.740] - Ed Pizza So you you can build up a pretty big balance of Hilton points quickly if your goal is to save up for a family vacation. [00:27:32.140] - Tamara Gruber Now, some of these programs have changed some things recently. Do you want to touch on that? [00:27:37.280] - Ed Pizza Yeah. So again, we talk about family travel. Things like free breakfast is important, and Hilton rolled out some changes that they say are temporary. And I'm actually supposed to be recording with an executive from Hilton on my podcast in October. So hoping to get a more final answer on this. But they've temporarily removed to a benefit where instead of getting free breakfast, you get a credit per day that you can use for breakfast. If you wanted to use it for breakfast, which you can also use it for a drink in the bar in the evening, et cetera. [00:28:08.660] - Ed Pizza It doesn't cover traditionally what a free breakfast used to cover. And sort of where this came from was during the pandemic. A lot of hotels eliminated free breakfast completely in the beginning. It was because we didn't really know how COVID was bread is now sort of become this thing of, well, gosh, we lost a lot of money during COVID, so we don't want to have breakfast out anymore. And I think it's a big question Mark right now on what the future will look like. I think hotel owners don't really want to give free breakfast. [00:28:32.760] - Ed Pizza They've never really wanted to, but it's always been a benefit that's been there. And so there's this unique most moment where a chain like Hilton is trying to move away. It seems from that free breakfast benefit, and I'm going to be really interested to see how this rolls for, because as of right now, it is only listed as a temporary benefit. You guys have been in this business long enough to know that lots of things that are temporary become permanent. So that might be where we end up with us. [00:28:57.450] - Ed Pizza But right now, the breakfast benefit, Hilton is nowhere near as good as it used to be in a vacuum. That being said in my travels, I've seen very few hotels that really have have a free breakfast out, as opposed to a Brown paper bag with a Nutri grain bar, an Apple and a bottle of water [00:29:14.620] - Kim Tate for a while there when we took our spring break road trip, they weren't even stocked with that stuff because they couldn't get supply chains as like we have one almond milk and an Orange going to the first customer down. [00:29:27.910] - Ed Pizza Yeah, it has been crazy and I didn't touch on IHG I think is sort of falls behind those others. I think at this point Wyndham has passed them in my mind and that it doesn't really have the vacation rental part of their platform. And for those that might not know IHG or brands like Holiday Inn, Holiday and Express Intercontinental, they have beautiful properties overseas, Europe and Asia, much more so than I'd say in the US where the I think they can play a role is definitely road tripping. [00:30:00.260] - Ed Pizza And then also, if you happen to be somebody who has some travel for work in the US, I think earning points stand staying at US based IHG properties and then using them for some of the really cool properties overseas. They have some really eclectic older style properties in Europe that I think are a lot of fun. So that would be how I think about trying to use is it would be saying if your traveler road warrior staying at the Holiday Express throughout the year so you can redeem for a really cool Intercontental stay in Europe or Asia. [00:30:34.620] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, they have cool. The Hotel Indigo brand properties are pretty cool too for those boutique type of stays. [00:30:43.570] - Ed Pizza And they are expanding. The Hotel Indigo brand obviously has a lot of change during the pandemic, but I do expect there to be more Hotel Indigo being built over the next handful of years. [00:30:57.260] - Kim Tate A brand I always like the decor and stuff. It's very clean and modern feel and a little bit of the local vibe with local artists and some of that stuff. So that's cool. [00:31:07.960] - Ed Pizza Yeah. Last I checked and don't quote me on this. There's probably about 100 or so Hotel Indigo in the pipeline and there's probably about 100 open right now, so they'll probably double the size of that brand over the next call, four or five years. [00:31:23.220] - Kim Tate So now that you've given us a good layout of all the great programs, and maybe people are thinking of which property or which brand might work best for them. Do you have any tips or suggestions for how to build up points with some of these programs beyond just hotel stays? So you mentioned a little bit about the Wyndham credit cards, so I know credit cards are a huge part of it. So any other tips or what info do they need to know about earning and transferring hotel points? [00:31:49.700] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And I think you keyed right there on the last two words that you said are the two ways that we're thinking about this. Are we earning points or are we transferring them? And so I think there's two separate paths, and I'm going to take them backwards because I think the transferring path is the one that's going to work for more people. Then the best example I like to use for folks is for anybody out there that has a retirement account. I hope you don't have everything all in one individual stock or mutual fund. [00:32:14.850] - Ed Pizza You're diversified. So Kim kind of alluded to this before where Chase and American Express both have their own flexible currencies. Chases is called Ultimate Rewards, and American Express is called membership rewards. And so you can spend on a credit card, a certain Chase branded credit cards and certain American Express branded credit cards. And you can then transfer those points to hotels. And for this, I specifically like Chase better than I like American Express, and that Chase has multiple hotel partners you can transfer to IG. But you can also transfer to Marriott and to High. [00:32:49.820] - Ed Pizza So lots of flexibility there. And if you ultimately decide you didn't want to transfer hotels because you got a really super deal, like you found a super cheap hotel and you want to use your money on your hotels and then use your points for airline tickets. You'd have that flexibility. But this also goes back to what the value of points are. And if you transfer points from Chase Ultimate Reward, so let's say you had, like, a Chase Sapphire preferred card, and you earn points for dining out and groceries and all that stuff. [00:33:17.670] - Ed Pizza And then you transfer those points. They're going to go a lot further with Hyatt, where the most expensive property costs 30,000 points a night versus Marriott, where the most expensive property will set you back about 100,000 points a night because you're still transferring on a one to one basis from Chase Ultimate Rewards to these different hotel programs. So for most folks, I think those sorts of cards offer great flexibility, which I think is what we want in travel, especially for family travelers. If hotels is really the thing that you're most focused on, then yes, absolutely. [00:33:49.470] - Ed Pizza They're or hotel credit cards. And not just because of my bias towards Hyatt, but I also think they have a pretty strong offering for credit cards in that they offer bonus points for dining out airline tickets, gym memberships, which is a fairly unique category. Mass transit, tolls, taxis, just a whole bunch of different categories where you can earn points for the things that you do on an everyday basis and use those to turn into vacation points further down the road. [00:34:19.360] - Tamara Gruber So would you ever recommend having a brand specific card as well? [00:34:24.720] - Ed Pizza You know, I think if your main goal is that you're going to be a free agent from an air travel standpoint where you're never going to use points for that, then I think a hotel branded credit card can make more sense. I think the other thing, too, that's a really solid reason to pick up a hotel credit card is that some of the cards do offer some level of status along with holding the card. That's a benefit of some cards, and it's very different amongst the different cards people use Hyatt as an example is that you do get discovered status with them, which earns you a free late checkout and a bonus on points that you earn. But it also gives you sort of a head start to the next level of status as well. So those can be great ways to sort of bridge across. Marriott has a lot more credit cards than hit us, so you have the ability to sort of maximize that if you're willing to hold multiple credit cards, they also have credit cards from both Chase and American Express. [00:35:23.520] - Ed Pizza But you really do have to sit down and think about as you start to get into multiple credit cards. Are you really getting the value for the annual fees for all these cards? Because some of them have gotten quite expensive for annual fees for five $600 a fee. And we just want to make sure that we're getting that value if we're going to keep that card in our wallet year in, year out. Whereas something like Chase Sapphire preferred annual fee is $95, and it's not hard to get $95 in value on a yearly basis. [00:35:48.640] - Kim Tate Yeah, I was going to say one of the things I have the Marriott, and it is kind of nice when I choose that knowing that I'm earning six points or ten points or whatever it is now on those hotel stays, and I don't even have to think about that. And then it's kind of funny, though, because I get gold with them, which doesn't do anything with Marriott now and then I get gold with my Amex as well. So I'm paying all the stupid fees to get overlap that still doesn't do anything. [00:36:13.730] - Kim Tate But I've been really looking at my Amex Platinum lately to see if I'm really getting my $700 worth or whatever they raise the annual fee to this year. [00:36:23.030] - Ed Pizza Yeah, not to dig too deeply into the numbers of it but again, depending on which Marriott card you have, we talked about the one to one transfer from Chase to Marriott. And so for every day spend, you could still either category where you can earn three, four, five chase points per dollar and then transfer those to Marriott in a one to one basis. So you can definitely make an argument why a Marriott card might be really good for you to pay for your Marriott stays. [00:36:53.350] - Ed Pizza The other bonus categories on those cards generally aren't as generous as some of these, like middle of the road flexible currency cards where you can come out of head. [00:37:02.330] - Kim Tate Overall, I've been trying to figure that with dining. That's been my biggest dilemma lately is when I'm eating out because I don't have, like, a freedom or any of those things. So I feel like the Marriott actually recently looked like it was more. But then when you look at the points value, my Chase ink is probably the best way to go. So I was really torn about that one. [00:37:21.960] - Ed Pizza Yeah, and dining is one of those things. It isn't necessarily a big strength of the Marriott card. The chase cards are pretty weak on those categories, and I don't remember all the American Express benefits off the top of my head. But when you think about the fact that you take a car like the American Express gold card that are in four points per one dollars on dining, that's a pretty sizable bonuses compared to the other cards. And don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure that annual fee is 250 where you're obviously a lot higher with some of the premium cards. [00:37:56.360] - Ed Pizza So you get three points per dollar on the Bonvoy brilliant. I was tell the names are confused. [00:38:01.250] - Kim Tate I know they make it. Yeah, I have their business one. I don't know which one that is. I don't have a really expensive one. [00:38:06.490] - Ed Pizza They all have B names, but that one only earns three points per dollar on dining where you're getting four on American Express gold. So again, it's a mixed bag of things. I think if you're going to have a lot of Marriott stays, those can be solid cards for you, but I think at the end of the day it's hey, sit down and make sure you're doing the math on what you're paying for annual fee to make sure you really are getting the value. Because on that one, like a big part of why that card should be in your wallet is because you're going to use that $300 credit that it comes with at a Marriott property, because if not, then you're paying $450 for a credit card on a yearly basis. [00:38:44.060] - Ed Pizza And that's a pretty big chunk of change. [00:38:45.950] - Kim Tate I have the size down one on that one. I don't have that expensive one. The other one boundless or busy. I don't know why they chose to make the full you'll never know makes them hard to say. [00:38:58.580] - Ed Pizza Yes. [00:38:59.470] - Tamara Gruber I will say that one time I got Marriott card for a while. And if anybody has an event coming up, it's a good thing to do. Right. So I hosted my daughter's, bat mitzvah party at a Marriott, and you basically got, I think, like, three times the points. If you're hosting an event there, there was some kind of calculation that I did where I was getting points for the rooms that were booked as part of my group as well as the event itself by putting it all on that Marriott card. [00:39:29.840] - Tamara Gruber So that's how I tried to maximize that for a while. [00:39:33.200] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And you can even triple up and that they have a meeting planner program. So when you're planning larger events like that, you can earn points on top of those points. [00:39:41.940] - Tamara Gruber I think that's what I did. Yeah. [00:39:45.020] - Ed Pizza That's a great way to triple up with you, as you say, when you have things like special family events that can really maximize your earnings. [00:39:51.480] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, as you said, we can dive into credit cards for a very long time. And I suggest anyone that really wants to get into this should definitely be subscribed to Miles to go, because sometimes you guys get into conversations on there where I'm like, Whoa, too much vernacular, too much jargon going on here because you definitely have guests that really know what they're talking about. So I would definitely recommend that. But I'm just curious. As a road warrior in so many hotels, sometimes you always want to write a post about biggest hotel pet peeves. [00:40:22.900] - Tamara Gruber But of course, who would care? But I want to hear what are your biggest pet peeves when it comes to hotels? And are they brand specific? [00:40:29.860] - Ed Pizza Well, and first off, I would care. So if you ever do write that, so let me know what I'll read it for me. Honestly, the biggest pet peeve that's developed over the past couple of years, and I hate to think of just the pandemic, but I think that this was lasting effects after we're done is what I've started to affectionately refer to as what I call no notice. No housekeeping. A lot of chains made changes to their housekeeping rules during the pandemic. In some cases, they weren't coming into rooms at all. [00:40:56.890] - Ed Pizza In other cases, like Hilton, they sort of moved away from the the standard of daily housekeeping. Two rules that make it sound like can't have housekeeping on a daily basis where in most cases, you could still ask for it. But I think the notice is the big part. We're all adults here. Let us make adult choices if you're not going to offer me housekeeping, which for the 40 plus years I've been on this planet has been a standard of pretty much every hotel in the country, minus some very limited narrow set of brands. [00:41:26.170] - Ed Pizza Housekeeping is a thing. We expect it. And so if you if you don't have enough staff or there's not enough money to do it. All those things. Just be honest about it and tell me upfront that. Hey, you're going to be here for six days and we're never going to clean your room. As with anybody in the pandemic, I can understand that hotels have gone through a real tough time not to sound sarcastic. I'm in the restaurant industry. We serve burgers and fries. If a customer pays me the same price they paid for a burger last year, I can't tell them I'm not giving them a hamburger bun today. [00:41:56.150] - Ed Pizza I still need to give them everything that they paid for. And housekeeping. I still just one of those things that I expect as part of hotel stay unless you tell me a time. And if you tell me out of time, hey, we're not going to here are the rules. At least I know the rules going into it. It's the changing of things and not telling customers clearly hear that we're not offering just like we talked about the free breakfast thing. Like, look, it's the published benefit than I expected. [00:42:17.600] - Ed Pizza And if you tell me you're not going to deliver it because of XYZ, at least I can make the choice as to whether or not I come stay at your exactly. [00:42:24.460] - Kim Tate I totally agree. They've been really lazy at notifying everyone even along on booking. I understand they can't always control third party booking sites, but on their own sites, they need to be saying if the breakfast is going to be a grab and grow bag, it should be right there on your reservation page. Or if they're not offering daily housekeeping or daily housekeeping can be added on to your even if they start saying, okay, you can get a prepay rate, you can get a regular refundable rate, or you can also book a rate that includes housekeeping. [00:42:55.990] - Kim Tate Fine, start doing that. But I think the lack of, like, housekeepers has been a big impact, and but I'm with you. Just let us know in advance. [00:43:06.360] - Ed Pizza Yeah, just be intellectually honest with your customers. We're smart enough to figure out that nobody came in and cleaned the room, and we're smart enough to remember we weren't told. So just get it out there ahead of time. [00:43:15.100] - Kim Tate That's the most annoying thing to me is just not knowing and then coming home expecting, especially when you're a family. [00:43:20.740] - Tamara Gruber Right. [00:43:20.950] - Kim Tate And you've got all of your towels are all mixed up and the kids would put theirs all over the floor, beds or carpet. And you're like, who's that never happens. You. Well, your kids are perfect. [00:43:31.790] - Tamara Gruber And not to mention there's that one tiny garbage can that fills up within a minute of arriving. [00:43:37.800] - Kim Tate And then for a while, when you were eating all your meals, like in your room, that worked really well. [00:43:43.740] - Ed Pizza Yeah, I think again, like, we're all adults, we can all cope with a new reality. If you tell me. I've got to put my trash can out by 08:00 at night, and sombody's going to pick it up. [00:43:52.060] - Kim Tate Great. [00:43:52.600] - Ed Pizza Then I know what the standard is. If we're never going to dump your trash can for five days, that's going to get ugly. [00:43:57.390] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, and also back in the day, you were at least given the incentive of you get some points if you bypass housekeeping with kind of I always did not trust the greenness of that. I thought it was more of a way of getting out of housekeeping, but at least you got something for for it, right? Whereas now it's like, oh, no, you have to request it like you're being a diva to request it. It's like, no, if I'm going to say that, I'm not kidding it then give me something for that. [00:44:25.090] - Ed Pizza And the height of the pandemic when hotel rates were like, 50 or $60 a night because nobody was staying, I think it was an understandable quid pro quo. As a business traveler, I paid $300 to stay in a regular old Marriott property a handful of weeks ago and was told that I couldn't get daily housekeeping. It's like I'm paying three hundred dollars a night. That rate should have enough baked into it that you can get somebody clean the room. And if you can't understand, staffing is a big issue, but you need to communicate that. [00:44:51.910] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I told this story recently on the podcast where I paid 250 a night to stay at a really crappy town place suites that was dirty and they didn't even have a pillow for my daughter to use on the pull out bed. It's like those kinds of things, like, no, sorry, it's taking it too far. Yeah, I agree. [00:45:09.430] - Kim Tate So now that we've talked about pet peeves and things that are driving us all nuts, what about some of the amenities or perks that you look for when you're debating between what hotel to choose? Yeah. [00:45:20.830] - Ed Pizza Well, we obviously talked about one of my favorites before, which were those confirmable suite upgrades at time of booking for Hyatt. So I think that's a really big one, just because I can lay that shit down when I need to for that one or two vacations a year and say, here's my ticket. I want that special room and tell me now. So I think that's a big one for me and for our family. I also think we're Hyatt and Hilton have really focused on reducing fees for folks who are on award stays. [00:45:50.310] - Ed Pizza So resort fees for Hyatt Hilton Hyatt went so far as to say we're not going to charge for parking on award stays. And it's not that parking costs a lot of money, but it's more like the nickeling and diming of stuff when you're on vacation, like, here's another fee and here's another fee and here's another fee. So I really like that those two who chains are really focusing on removing those fees when you have a, quote, unquote free room, it's actually closer to free. And that sounds funny for folks who maybe don't redeem points a lot. [00:46:17.830] - Ed Pizza But at some brands, there are lots and lots of fees. I know there are a lot of people that love club lounges. As our kids have gotten a little bit older, we probably use them just a little bit less because we like to get out and sort of explore local cities, if you will. And eating breakfast at a small cafe, Paris or Amsterdam or Lisbon is more appealing than hitting the lounge. But I still think lounges have a tremendous amount of value for families with younger children. [00:46:48.040] - Ed Pizza And so as our kids have gotten older, maybe that one's a little bit less important. But, boy, did we save a lot of money on properties that had free breakfast. And actually, I think the Hyatt Regency Grand Cypress was a great example of that pre pandemic. Their lounge has been closed during the pandemic, but before going to Disney World every morning, we'd have breakfast in the lounge. And I would say that's probably worth at least 30 or $40 a day for a family of four to eat breakfast somewhere. [00:47:12.660] - Tamara Gruber Well, I'm with you on the lounges, but also one of my things that I love is free water. So it's like the Hilton will give you the bottles of water. I remember checking in with my husband to a Courtyard Marriott in Portland, Maine, and he's Ambassador level. They didn't have us an upgrade available. And I was like, Can we get a couple of waters? And they're like, oh, we don't do that here. And I'm like, Seriously, you won't give us two bottles of water and the lounges. [00:47:39.520] - Tamara Gruber I stayed recently at a Marriott in Buffalo and had access to the lounge. And I think I was wiping them out on the water because the stuff from the tap just wasn't doing it. And they didn't have any refill stations open. So those little things Kim, knows how much I need my water. So it saves me a lot. [00:47:57.040] - Kim Tate It seems like they've gotten rid of those communal water fill, you know, for, like, some hotels have the little jug in the lobby, but because a COVID they got rid of that. And I have a feeling that's going to be another thing we never see see return. [00:48:10.580] - Ed Pizza Yeah, it's a good point. And I think you're the same way I am Tamara that I drink a ton of water when I'm on the road, just trying to stay hydrated wherever I am. And so that's a huge benefit for us. And you're right, Hilton is very good about offering that every time I check in like, hey, do you need a couple of bottles of water? It's also something that IoT is very good at and not to pile on Marriott. Put your comment about we don't do that there. [00:48:35.510] - Ed Pizza It's kind of sort of like an unwritten model of Marriott. That the property sort of do what they feel comfortable with. And some properties are really good about taking care of their guests. And a lot of the other ones are like, well, there's no financial justification for us to give you two bottles of water so you can buy them. [00:48:50.330] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, they're like, there's a little shop, little. I don't know what to call it, but it's like the main marketplace. Thank you. [00:48:57.540] - Ed Pizza Where you can pay $4 for a bottle of Aquafina. [00:49:01.840] - Tamara Gruber well, you've been on the program before, so you know that we always ask a question about what you wear. But since we've heard that, I thought maybe we would mix it up and ask if you have a favorite type of luggage or brand for a carry on bag or a rolling bag. [00:49:16.240] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And I'm among the minority here. So my favorite brand is Briggs and Riley. They're not the prettiest suitcases. Sometimes my wife kind of looks sideways at them because not all the bags are like the sexiest and sleekest suitcases. But my main Briggs and Riley bag is now almost 20 years old. They've prepared at a time or two. A true lifetime warranty. It's got over a million miles rolled on it. They're just really, really durable, functional bags again, not as pretty as to me, but never had a zipper break on a Brigand rally bag in almost 20 years. [00:49:51.190] - Tamara Gruber That's amazing. [00:49:52.420] - Ed Pizza Yeah. [00:49:52.760] - Kim Tate There's somebody else who really loves those that I'm trying to think of. [00:49:56.000] - Tamara Gruber Is it Eric? Yeah. Okay. [00:49:58.130] - Kim Tate Maybe I couldn't remember. I was like, who else do I know that's a real Briggs and Riley fan. [00:50:02.340] - Ed Pizza Yeah. I mean, I've had really good luck with them. I think the brand stands behind their bags. And I've had so many people tell me about how they tried to send there to me, a bag away to get it repaired. And it was gone for weeks and weeks, and they had to pay for shipping and all this stuff. And I'm just a no nonsense guy. And the bags just work. [00:50:24.330] - Kim Tate Well, you have given us so much great information, but as we've already shared before, you have a lot more out there. So why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you on the line and follow along with all your great travel tips? [00:50:34.900] - Ed Pizza Yeah. And thanks again, guys, for having me on this was a lot of fun for me. I live vicariously through some of the travel that you guys have done over the summer, and I can't wait to get back to some of those fun places. So it's always great to be on the show with you. We do publish a podcast on a weekly basis, just like you guys find me at Miles to go on all the popular podcasting platform where you can find vacation mavens. And you can find me writing at PizzainMotion.com and all the Twitter, Facebook Instagram stuff is all @pizzainmotion as well. [00:51:06.880] - Tamara Gruber Thanks so much, Ed. [00:51:08.100] - Kim Tate Yeah, thanks. We love having you, and we will look forward to chatting with you again sometime soon. [00:51:12.940] - Ed Pizza Thanks, guys. [00:51:17.060] - Tamara Gruber And we forgot to mention at the beginning of the episode, but Kim and I do have an announcement to make, and that is something that we talked about a little bit on the last episode, but is now official. We're going to Portugal, although I'm totally knocking wood as I say that because, oh, my God, things can totally come up last minute. Now, I'm like, scared. Did I just drink this? Kim? [00:51:37.290] - Kim Tate No, no, it's all good. We're good. [00:51:39.300] - Tamara Gruber But we're going to be in Portugal. We're going to be exploring so much of this country. Kim and I have actually gone there together in the past, but now we're going to get to Do Porto and the Duoro and Alentejo hopefully that's how you pronounce it the Algarve. We're going to the Azores. It's going to be an amazing trip. I hope that you will follow us both on social media. So Tam

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How Do You Know if You Have Sleep Apnea

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 8, 2021 48:35

You probably know that daytime sleepiness is an indication that you're not getting sufficient sleep. If you have ever been sleep-deprived because you or your partner kept waking up during the night, you're not alone. It might surprise you to know that an estimated 90% of people with sleep apnea are completely unaware of their condition. What are the symptoms of Sleep Apnea The signs, as well as symptoms of obstructive along with central sleep apneas, tend to overlap. This can sometimes make it tough to figure out which kind you have. The signs and symptoms that are the most common of these sleep apneas are:TMJLA.com Snoring loudlyTimes when you stop breathing whilst sleeping, this would be told to you by someone else, i.e., your sleep partnerGasping for air whilst sleepingWaking up having a dry mouthHaving a headache in the morningFinding it tough to remain asleep or insomniaExtreme daytime sleepiness or hypersomniaFinding it tough paying attention when awakeFeeling irritableHaving heartburn You can also read more about the risk factors for obstructive sleep apnea or central sleep apnea here. In this episode of A Healthy Bite, Dr. David Shirazi explains how sleep apnea is related to many other conditions such as type 2 diabetes, hypertension, and more. He tackles sleep and pain problems head-on, empowering people to rewrite their narrative and take control of their health. Dr. Shirazi believes that sleep disturbances are at the basis of many health problems and that improving sleep hygiene can help folks cope with practically any ailment, including ADHD, dementia, hypertension, and more. If you are not getting quality sleep, do yourself a favor and listen to this episode. You can find Dr. Shirazi at TMJLA.com. Resources Quiz for Obstructive Sleep ApneaRead more about sleep disorders and their therapies Dr. Shirazi's Google TalksDownload my ebook Why Am I So Sleepy Sleep Apnea with David Shirazi [00:00:00] Rebecca: Today's guest. Dr. David Shirazi is a TMJ and sleep expert. Dr. David holds too many degrees and certifications for me to list, but to read his bio, please visit thatorganicmom.com/sleep-apnea. Dr. David is a dentist and acupuncturist, a sleep expert, and lots more. If you have a sleep issue or sleep challenge, chances are Dr. David Shirazi knows how to diagnose and treat it. I hope that you'll stick around for the end of this episode, as he shares his expertise. And you can find out more about Dr. David and his work with TMJ and sleep therapy at his website, which is TMJLA.Com. [00:00:47] Announcer: Welcome to a healthy bite. You're one nibble closer to a more satisfying way of life, a healthier you and bite size bits of healthy motivation. Now let's dig in on the dish with Rebecca Huff. [00:01:02] Dr. David: So I'm a dentist. I'm an acupuncturist for five years. I was a sleep technologist and I have a master's in psychology. I got into sleep because my focus was TMJ disorders and and chronic pain. And, you know, we found out that one of the reasons why we clench our teeth is because of sleep breathing disorder. And so I decided, okay, well, I should, I should learn. I should know more about these sort of things,, for example, things like TMJ and sleep, you know, sleep apnea. These are things that can't be fixed with acupuncture and herbs, right? Because if someone has a TMJ problem, if it's acute, it can be. But the problem with, with someone, with the jaw problem, If they continue to clench their teeth every night and sometimes during the day that, you know, you're never going to resolve it with acupuncture, even lasers or what have you, because the patient's going to go back into what we call parafunction. [00:02:07] So as I was studying the sleep; the dental courses for dentists treating sleep apnea were all basically learn how to make this appliance, you know? And then buy our appliance, it was basically the gist of about 90, 95% of them. And then

adhd sleep apnea tmj shirazi david shirazi announcer welcome healthy bite

197 Crossing the Canadian Border & A Road Trip to Buffalo

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 7, 2021 43:42

This week Kim and Tamara are catching up on their respective August travels. Kim shares what it is like to cross the land border between Canada and the USA right now, plus what you need to know before you go. Meanwhile, Tamara almost made it to the Canadian border on her Western New York road trip, but not quite. She tells us about her eating adventures along the Upstate Eats Trail in Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo, New York. ABOUT OUR SPONSOR: ROOM STEALS Today's episode is sponsored by Room Steals. Listeners may remember Room Steals from our discussion on finding hotel deals in Episode 185, but Room Steals is a Chrome browser extension that works alongside existing booking sites to show you what the wholesale price is for that room. Just install the browser extension and search for a hotel as you usually would on Hotels.com, Booking.com, Expedia, or Google. Once you've done your initial search, Room Steals will show you in a pop-up if that same room is available for less. If it is, you can click on that pop-up and book it directly through Room Steals. Downloading and using Room Steals is free; however, if you want to book a discounted room you have to pay an annual membership fee. Listeners can save 20% off the annual membership fee with promo code vacationmavens. If you travel multiple times in a year, the subscription will quickly pay for itself. One listener already saved $400 using Room Steals on her first booking! To learn more, visit roomsteals.com. That's roomsteals.com and use promo code vacationmavens to save 20% off your membership to Room Steals, and we thank them for their support. Crossing the Canadian Border The land border is still currently closed for Canadians looking to enter the USA, but US citizens are permitted to visit Canada. To cross the border, US citizens need to show a negative COVID test result taken within 72 hours of crossing (note 72 hours NOT 3 days so test timing matters). Tests need to be PCR tests done through a lab (not an at-home test). Anyone age-eligible needs to be fully vaccinated to enter Canada and be prepared to show your vaccination card. Children under 12 crossing with a vaccinated parent may need to be tested again at the border crossing. You also need to have a quarantine plan (identify a hotel where you would stay if you needed to quarantine in Canada.) Canada can also do random COVID testing at the border. You currently do NOT need a negative COVID test to return from Canada to the United States if you are crossing via a land border (anyone arriving into the US by air still needs to have a negative COVID test taken within 72 hours of boarding the plane.) You can upload all your documents into the Arrive CAN app prior to travel. Keep in mind that if you are driving through Western Canada you will want to pay close attention to any wildfires and road closures when planning your route. Be sure to check the Canadian government website for the latest updates. Upstate Eats Trail Road Trip Stops The Upstate Eats Trail runs from Binghampton to Buffalo to Rochester to Syracuse, New York with local food stops along the way This area also has a lot of history with the Erie Canal, suffrage movement, and Underground Railroad See Tamara's full blog post about the Upstate Eats Trail In Syracuse, Green Lakes State Park is home to a glacial lake with a beautiful blue color like you see in the some of the lakes up in Canada. In Downtown Syracuse, Dinosaur BBQ is a popular restaurant with excellent barbecue. Salt City Market is a food hall in Downtown Buffalo with many different types of cuisine from Burmese to Jamaican, Thai, and more. The Marriott in Downtown Syracuse is a beautiful historic hotel and has a great location for exploring downtown. On the way from Syracuse to Rochester, stop in Auburn, New York at the Harriet Tubman House National Historic Site and the New York State Equal Rights Center. In Rochester, stop at Bill Gray's for their red and white hot dogs with meat sauce. One location is right on Lake Ontario. Nearby you can grab a soft serve frozen custard Abbott's. Rochester is famous for the garbage plate, which was invented at Nick Tahou Hots. A garbage plate has potatoes (usually fries), macaroni salad, and is topped with either hamburgers or hot dogs and covered with meat sauce, onions, and other toppings. If you are visiting Rochester with kids, be sure to visit the Strong Museum of Play. This interactive museum focuses on play and has areas with interactive play as well as a Toy Hall of Fame and toys from different decades. High Falls is another spot to check out in Rochester, which is a 90' waterfall in the center of town. There is a nice bridge and viewing point overlooking the falls. Genessee Brew House is located right near the falls. Famous for Genessee Cream Ale, they now have a craft brewery and restaurant. Buffalo is known for a wide selection of food beyond wings, 35 craft breweries, 5 distilleries, street art, history and a revitalized waterfront. Tamara stayed at the Downtown Marriott in Buffalo in the Canalside district, which is where the boat tours leave and where you can rent kayaks, paddleboards, and water bikes. Buffalo River History Tours runs boat tours that explain the history of the river and the grain silos that line the banks. River Works is another entertainment district along the river that is home to ice hockey/roller derby rinks, a ropes course, a brewery, restaurant, tiki bar, entertainment venue and soon a Ferris wheel and zip lining. Silo City is home to a large number of grain silos and elevators that are being converted into lofts and commercial / exhibition space. Duende is a fun bar in Silo City that features live music on some evenings, outdoor space, and fun cocktails or local craft beers. General Mills still has a plant in Buffalo that manufactures Cheerios and Lucky Charms, and the area around it smells like cereal. There are many breweries in Buffalo and one favorite is Resurgence Brewing. Ted's Hot Dogs is famous for its spicy meat sauce. Anchor Bar is home to the original buffalo wings. Other local Buffalo foods to try include beef on weck, sponge candy, and Buffalo-style pizza. If you enjoy architecture, be sure to visit Frank Lloyd Wright's Martin House. See more things to do on a Buffalo girls' trip. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.000] - Kim Tate We're saying goodbye to summer. Here's the latest of what we've been up to. [00:00:15.440] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:29.940] - Kim Tate Today's episode is brought to us by our continuing sponsor, Room Steals. Room Steals is an extension that you can add to your browser. And while you're shopping for your next hotel room, you can see if you're getting the very best rate. [00:00:43.230] - Tamara Gruber I don't know if I had mentioned to you, but my family is planning on doing a Thanksgiving get away this year with all of Glenn's family. It is a multi generational trip, hopefully to Aruba. It was something that was supposed to happen a couple of years ago and was cancelled. I don't know if it's going to happen, but right now that's what our plan is. And so I was like, you know what? It's Thanksgiving week. I don't think that there would be any deals on Room Steals, but let me just give it a quick look. [00:01:08.730] - Tamara Gruber So I looked and we were going to do the Ritz Carlton in Aruba, and it looks like we could save almost $900 if we use Room Steals because it depends on what room types. Some would be like $400. Some would be 600 or would be $800. So now I need to go and tell my father in law, but he's going to pay for quite a few rooms. So if you think about if that's like $800 per room, you know, when you're doing, like, five rooms, that's a lot of money. [00:01:37.110] - Kim Tate That's a lot of money. [00:01:37.930] - Tamara Gruber It's a lot of money. So anyway, if anyone is thinking of planning some travel, I definitely suggest checking out Room Steals. As we mentioned, it's a Chrome browser extension that works alongside all of these different booking sites, like hotels or Booking or Expedia or even Google. And the nice thing is, you can see what the rate would be for free. And then if you want to book that rate, that's when you can sign up for Room Steals membership. And they are offering our listeners 20% off the annual membership fee with the promotion code, vacationmavens. It is Vacation Mavens. All one word, all lower case. Go ahead and check it out at Room Steals dot com. [00:02:18.200] - Tamara Gruber So, Kim, I was hoping to use this episode to talk about our big announcement of a big trip that we're doing that we're going to see each other on for the first time in how long? I know. I don't know. I don't think we have an announcement to make. [00:02:33.330] - Kim Tate I don't think we can announce it yet, but I can at least say what we're crossing our fingers for. We are crossing our fingers that Tamara and I will be going to Portugal in October. So I'm still hoping I'm crossing my fingers and my heart. [00:02:49.080] - Tamara Gruber I think anyone that's trying to plan any trips right now is very much in this state of is it happening? Is it not happening? Especially if it's international. We're all trying to make the best decisions and look at the most recent information. And just recently we've gone through, do we do this or not? And we're like, okay, Portugal has the second best vaccination rate in Europe. Their cases are flattening out. They've got all these great measures in place. [00:03:18.380] - Tamara Gruber Everything was coming together, all getting organized. We're ready to go. And it's like one of those things where just when you're about to pull the trigger, it's like because Europe announces that they are taking the US off of their safe list of countries that they're accepting into the European Union. So at first that's like, what is that going to mean? You read into it a little bit more. It looks like it probably will be mostly targeted towards unvaccinated travelers, but it's really up to each individual country now to determine what they're going to decide to do. [00:03:55.110] - Tamara Gruber And so I think probably a lot of them will do is that you need to be both vaccinated and have a negative test for arrival and then implementing that vaccine passport that they're using throughout Europe to be able to check into hotels and go to restaurants and things like that. So it is definitely something to keep your eye on very closely as it can change at anytime. [00:04:18.380] - Kim Tate I mean, we're over a year into this, so hopefully we've all learned to keep things fluid, but it's definitely a a situation that's up in the air. And like Tamara said, we're just trying to really follow all the rules and regulations, make sure. And the thing is, you have to make sure you're doing the research yourself because I saw someone recently. They showed up to the airport and they had done their own research and knew that they had to get a test and all this stuff. But people were at the airport and being denied their flight because they didn't have a test to show the airport check in, and they were complaining. [00:04:52.500] - Kim Tate Well, the airline never sent us this information. They never told us this was needed, so you can't rely on getting your information from one source. You have to really kind of do the leg work yourself. [00:05:03.120] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I think there's a lot of that, like, just not understanding what needs to happen. And I think sometimes I pay a little too much attention to the news, but you need to definitely follow all that information. I just put up a little Instagram story the other day just with some steps to take, make sure that you register for the Smart Traveler enrollment program, the Step program through the State Department, make sure you are following and read through everything on the embassy page to understand what the rules are and following those kind of resources, especially on social media, is that probably gets updated more quickly. [00:05:39.220] - Tamara Gruber So you definitely need to get some information. But things are always changing even here in the US, right. We were just kind of talking about how difficult it is even to plan a travel podcast, because some of the things that we wanted to talk to you guys about this fall. Now it's probably not the best time to visit those destinations. So between fires and storms and other things, travel is continued to be fluid. But road trips tend to still be good. And you and I both made a road trip recently, right. [00:06:09.540] - Kim Tate We did. [00:06:10.360] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:06:10.890] - Kim Tate I think it's hopefully still in our ability. However, there's some interesting stuff, even with road tripping, it we had experience when we were in Canada, but yeah, I think that things right now. I mean, just as we've always said, things, you have to really pack your patience and do your research and be flexible and fluid. [00:06:29.340] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So you got to finally visit Paul's family, which I'm so glad you were able to do that. So what was it like driving across the border? I guess both ways, especially since we're a little bit unequal partners in that. We are now allowed into Canada. But Canadians are not allowed to cross our border. So there's all these different rules to sort out. We talked about it a little bit last time, but now that you've been through it, maybe you could just talk about that would like, yeah, definitely. [00:06:53.880] - Kim Tate So it's probably good to let everyone know what the experience was. In actuality, we got up to the border. We made good time. We were the only car at the border crossing where we went, and we were using one of the border crossings. That's not as busy up here. We have three that we well, actually, there's four that we can use kind of across the Washington, our side of the border that we do when we're traveling up to Edmonton, we normally pick ones that are a little bit further east than the traditional Vancouver ones. [00:07:22.280] - Kim Tate So we passed at a slower location, and it was we were the only people there. We got up there and they wanted to see our passports. And then I had put our vaccine cards in my passport and it dropped, of course. And he's like, I just want your passports now. So he didn't want to see my card, but he saw that we had it. I'm guessing. So he gave that to us and looked at our passport, scan them and everything. And then he wanted to see our negative COVID test. [00:07:52.420] - Kim Tate And so I pulled mine up on my phone. But the girls, they don't have digital ones because they're minors, so they don't have the digital account. So we had gotten print outs in advance, and he looked because I know that mine. We actually we got tested separately and mine and Mia was exactly three days before. And whereas Paul and Lizzy there was two days before, but early in the morning and he looked at his watch because he was looking for the 72 hours. So I was curious how that would work if they really hold to the 72 hours or it would be just kind of like three days before. [00:08:28.270] - Kim Tate But he looked at his watch because ours got processed at 05:00 p.m.. And he wanted to make sure that the time that you got the test or the time that the results came for us. It was the time that the test was administered. So what happened, though, is we collected. We gave our sample probably around 1:20, but the test results said sample process at 05:00 p.m.. So there was like a holding period before they actually ran our sample. But our results didn't come in for two days after that. [00:08:58.220] - Kim Tate But it's not based on when you're basically, I would say, is have your sample collected no sooner than 72 hours before you think you're going to pass that, you know, that border. And I know there's different rulings on if you're originating in one place and then connecting somewhere. And I think there's some stuff with that as well. [00:09:20.230] - Tamara Gruber Well, you really have to account for traffic there, too, just yet. [00:09:23.610] - Kim Tate I know that's what I was saying. So that's where we were, because it's like, okay, well, we want to leave the house at this time, but knowing my family, we're probably going to know we give it that time. So I want to give myself an hour cushion. But then we had, like I said, we had quite a bit of a cushion from just when the processing was when the test was processed. It was a few hours after we'd given our samples. [00:09:48.540] - Tamara Gruber Did you do that through like, a standard state testing site. We did pharmacy or anything. [00:09:54.690] - Kim Tate We did it through our normal clinic site. So our hospital, like our doctor's clinic has a drive through clinic set up for all the patients. And so we were able to just drive through there and do our little swabs and stick and imagine it has to be PCR. It has to be PCR. And Canada does not allow those Abbott ones. [00:10:19.370] - Tamara Gruber Unless they've started self administered one. [00:10:21.800] - Kim Tate Yeah, it has to be through a lab and stuff in there. They have different rules. So you just need to really make sure you're doing it the right way and stuff. So we got them and no problem. So he checked that. Now we had used the app that was the arrive can app, and I had it pulled up and in there. And again, I wonder how much they noticed this and don't ask for it then, because he didn't ask us for vaccination cards, and he didn't ask to see the app. [00:10:46.760] - Kim Tate But I had it already, like in the hand on my lap. So then we got through. It's kind of funny how we did this because we drove separately. So Paul and Mia were right behind us, and they got up there and he wanted to see their arrive can, and he wanted to see their vaccination cards in addition to everything else. So I don't know how that worked, but yeah, so we had everything in order. So we had the arrived can filled out. The tricky thing about the arrive can is they actually make you create a quarantine, not create, but tell them what your quarantine plan is because because they can spontaneously request a test at the border. [00:11:24.150] - Kim Tate And I'm guessing this is done more when you're flying. But I did have a friend recently say that it happened to their kids because they weren't able to get vaccinated. But those tests don't come through for three days or can be three days. And so when they give you the results, they've already let you into the country. But when they give you the results, if you're positive, you have to go into quarantine immediately at that point, and you have to follow that plan that you input into this app. [00:11:52.290] - Kim Tate So we just put that we would stay at a residence in that was near his family. So that's just something to be mindful of that you do have to know what your arrangements will be. And you can't just say, oh, we'll just stay with family because it has to be in a situation where you can not touch or be around anyone else. So you have to be able to get your own food. You have to be able to not be with anyone who is not part of your traveling party. [00:12:18.500] - Tamara Gruber Well, that's challenging. But you didn't have to make a reservation just in case. [00:12:23.220] - Kim Tate No, I did not have to make a reservation. They just wanted to know what you would do. And I thought for some people who were going to Vancouver, I wondered if you could just put your home address in there and say, hey, I just turn around and go right back home. [00:12:35.540] - Tamara Gruber Right. [00:12:36.050] - Kim Tate But I don't know if the US. So that was the other. So then we get to the other flip side of it, which was once. The reason we drove up separately is because we actually parked one car at the airport, and we were driving up to together to visit Paul's family. And then we were able to me and I flew back early on our own to at an airport and picked up the car and drove home because she had a camp that started the day. And normally we do that drive in two days. [00:13:00.300] - Kim Tate It's a little long for a one day drive. So we had that experience when we were ready to cross back in the border, we went through the same again, very small border crossing, and it was closed off. And so I was a little worried because I was like, okay, I didn't check the hours. But it was like, 10:00 a.m.. I was like, sure, truly, it's open at 10:00 a.m.. Maybe it's a weekend. And there was a border patrol agent there and got out of his car and it was like, pull forward. [00:13:25.670] - Kim Tate And I was like, okay. And I rolled down the line. I'm like, Is this crossing not open? And he's like, Well, the border has been closed since March of 2020. Don't you know that? And I was like, no we are Americans. And so he's like, sdo you have American passports? And I was like. Yes, here they are. [00:13:42.030] - Kim Tate And so he looked at him and he took them. And I was like, we're just visiting my husband's family, my in laws. And we're just coming back home. And he's like, okay, and move the thing. And he's like, drive forward to the booth. So we drove forward. I went through the process. And that was so like, they didn't want to test. They didn't want anything. They were just like, welcome home. Then we went through. [00:14:02.340] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I was listening to the Miles to Go podcast. And he also recently had gone up to Canada, I think, to visit family. And apparently you don't need a test to come back into the US when you are at a land crossing. Yes, you only do for a flight. Which seems so odd. I don't know why you wouldn't just have the same rule. But did you know that ahead of time, I had you gotten tested, just in case. [00:14:27.690] - Kim Tate When I recorded the previous podcast, I had mentioned that we were going to buy those Abbott Binax and just do a testing. But then I had two friends who had both crossed recently. One had been crossing regularly to visit her family, and then the other one had just gone up to visit his family. But both of them said they've never been. There's nothing with testing required when you're crossing at the land border. So we did not buy those Abbott tests. And we just took it at words at the word. [00:14:56.040] - Kim Tate And sure enough, they did not ask for any kind of test. So interesting. Yeah, it is kind of interesting. I don't know how that works, but we're thankfully lucky enough that we didn't have to do that extra step and expense. [00:15:07.050] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Glad everything worked out and that you have a family. [00:15:10.620] - Kim Tate It was so nice. I'm so glad we went. And it was good to be around my, you know, one niece, she had a new baby. So we were able to see him. And it was great. [00:15:22.310] - Tamara Gruber It was nice. [00:15:23.400] - Kim Tate We went to West Edmonton Mall. So for those people are curious, we didn't do it. We did mostly just hang out with family. But we did go out to eat a couple of times. They had some patio seating. And with it being summer, it was actually really nice to be in Edmonton and we went to West Edmonton mall, and the girls got some back to school shopping done. And we happened to be during a big hockey tournament. So there's a bunch of kids playing. They have a big ice rink in the middle of their West Edmonton wall. [00:15:53.520] - Tamara Gruber As they do in Edmonton. [00:15:54.990] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. It's like, is anyone surprised that they have a big hockey rink? If anyone doesn't know West Edmonton mall, I used to be kind of the largest mall in North America, and it and Mall of America, which is in Minnesota. I think they used to go back and forth. I don't know who's the current reigning champion because they would add on and do different things. But anyways, while the girls were shopping, we kind of stood and watched the kids play a hockey tournament. And it was a fun, very Canadian that. [00:16:27.300] - Kim Tate Yeah, it was. And we got Tim Hortons coffee. So Tim Bits, it was a very Canadian esque situation. My sister in law is actually a pilot, a small plane pilot. She's working up her. She just got commercial pilots, but she's working up her hours and stuff. But she took Paul and the girls up in her little four seater plane up for a flight one day. So that was another fun thing they got to do. And they loved that. It's neat. Yeah. I stayed on the ground. [00:16:56.350] - Kim Tate I did not go. [00:16:57.540] - Tamara Gruber I'd be in after my one experience with the glider plane. I'm okay on small planes. [00:17:04.130] - Kim Tate I remember when you and I have that chance to go on the helicopter in Ireland. [00:17:09.170] - Tamara Gruber And we both were like. [00:17:10.250] - Kim Tate No, maybe not a good idea. [00:17:11.750] - Tamara Gruber See the helicopter for me is more about the motion sickness. [00:17:15.560] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's what I was worried about. [00:17:17.180] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I was little planes. I'm just not a fan of the little plane inside. [00:17:20.680] - Kim Tate Yeah. For me, I was pretty sure that I just know I'm not a calm flyer. Like I have fear flying. I used to have it really bad. And then as I flew more, I've gotten over it. But turbulence and stuff is just a problem. But I also know on the smaller planes, the motion sickness would really get to me if I couldn't be looking out continually and stuff. [00:17:42.110] - Tamara Gruber Especially when they're like, oh, let's Zoom in to see the scenery. I really enjoyed our float plane that we did in Alaska when we went to see the bears and stuff, but it was short. So I did get to the motion sickness wasn't too bad, but yeah, well, I was up right near the Canadian border. I thought of you. [00:18:01.870] - Kim Tate Exactly. You didn't quite cross. Yeah. Had you considered it? [00:18:04.910] Initially, I was tempted. But it's funny because a friend of mine met me in Buffalo, and I'll explain the trip in a minute. But she's from New Jersey, and she actually never had Tim Hortons, which here in New England. There are some Tim Hortons around okay. So it's not like a brand new thing, but she was like, oh, what is that? I've never heard of it. And we're like, what have you never heard? It's important. So anyway, we're very used to our Dunkin Donuts here. [00:18:29.570] - Kim Tate And, yeah, that's something. I don't even know if I've ever had a Dunkin Donuts. I can't think if I ever have. [00:18:37.360] - Tamara Gruber Well, you know, I'm not a coffee person, so I don't get into that hole to be all I can evaluate the Donuts. [00:18:43.490] - Kim Tate Yeah, I have to say that Tim Hortons, I like Tim Hortons more than McDonald's, but that's about where the level is at. So for people who are wondering, it's not like, you know, in Seattle, I'm so spoiled because we have a coffee stand booth of, you know, like, small source coffees at every corner. So it's a little different. So it's definitely like, drive through coffee. So I don't know if I could compare honestly what Duncan ones versus McDonald's versus Tim Hortons. I don't know if I could do any justice to that in there. [00:19:13.740] - Kim Tate Yeah, but, yeah, I want to hear all about because I know you went up to Buffalo to do a big foodie trail. So what was that like? [00:19:20.150] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I had talked to the tourism board from Visit Buffalo back in January. So this is a trip that they hosted me on because what intrigued me about Buffalo is it kind of has some similarities to where I live here in Providence. They talked about a big revitalization of their waterfront, a good foodie scene, craft breweries, things like that. So I thought, you know what that sounds like a fun summer getaway summer or fall. I didn't really want to go up to Buffalo in the winter. And so they've put together this entire Upstate Eats trail. [00:19:55.190] - Tamara Gruber So it's really more Western New York. You could hit Binghamton, which is down more like Upstate, but a little closer to where the Finger Lakes and then cut through the Finger Lakes up to Buffalo. What I did, though, since I'm coming from Rhode Island, is I went right across Interstate 90, and I stopped first in Syracuse and spent a night there, and then one night in Rochester and then three nights in Buffalo. So I got to experience three stops along the Upstate Eats Trail and kind of got to see the unique foods of that area, which I just have so much fun discovering what foods are really unique and special. [00:20:34.050] - Tamara Gruber And sometimes it's just like a twist on something like a hot dog. But it's just the thing that they have up there. So I found that when I moved to Rhode Island, so many people that live in Rhode Island have lived there all their lives, and they may not recognize that these things are not everywhere. But when I moved to Rhode Island, I'm like, oh, there's so many very unique foods. And I remember writing a post about the must try foods in Rhode Island. So it's become my thing to really discover those unique foods that you only find in certain places. [00:21:04.500] - Tamara Gruber And I found a lot of other things along the way because that area just has so much history between the suffrage movement, the Underground Railroad, just overall industrialism and stuff. There's just so much history to explore there, too. So there were a lot of places in between those cities that I wanted to stop at. That I didn't always have a chance to. So I did a few on the way back. I'm working on a whole blog post that I'll link to in our show notes when this comes out about the different stops along the way. [00:21:35.150] - Tamara Gruber But, yeah, my first surprise was that when I got to Syracuse, they have a glacial Lake there. That is that beautiful color that you see, like in Canada. I'm like, wait, I didn't know that we had this in New York, but then Syracuse, downtown. Syracuse is big for the University, Syracuse University, but it has a good downtown. There's a lot of diversity there. I didn't have. I didn't get a chance to do some of the things I would have liked to have done because it was a Monday in museums and some other things were closed. [00:22:08.220] - Tamara Gruber But it's also that area is because of the Great Lakes. You see so much distribution and things. So the Erie Canal was a huge deal in terms of getting goods from the Great Lakes down into other parts of the state. So they have an Erie Canal Museum. And there's also stops along the Underground Railroad. They're in Syracuse. So the thing that I got to do, of course, was eat. I asked people, where should I eat? And certain places always came up in Syracuse. It was dinosaur barbecue. [00:22:44.720] - Tamara Gruber So it was just like a big, famous place for barbecue. Which is funny. I was actually in my grocery store yesterday, and I had to buy a barbecue sauce, and I saw that they have dinosaur barbecue sauce. I'm like, either I've never noticed that before or I just didn't know where it came from. Right. [00:22:59.330] - Kim Tate Right. Yeah. [00:23:00.260] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:23:01.080] - Kim Tate Like the sauce, right. [00:23:02.610] - Tamara Gruber I didn't realize that that was a restaurant. So I did that. And then kind of just spent my time walking around town. And then in the evening, I went to they have a food hall. [00:23:12.710] - Kim Tate I love those. [00:23:13.800] - Tamara Gruber So this food Hall, Salt City Market, was right next to the hotel where I was staying at, which was like a Marriott, which was beautiful. It was an old historic hotel that had been renovated and changed into a Marriott. And the food hall had all kinds of different cuisine. I had, like, I think I got a Jamaican meat pie. And then they had another place they made, like, homemade, I think, a peach pie, different things. They had Vietnamese and Burmese and Cambodian. So tons of different cuisines that you could try and sample. [00:23:44.870] - Tamara Gruber So that was the cool thing. I always like when I see these kind of interesting food experiences. Yeah. Definitely. [00:23:51.200] - Kim Tate We were talking about that when I was in Irvine. It's neat because we get so stuck in kind of the standard stuff. And maybe when you're traveling far away, you think of it. But yeah, that's nice. [00:24:00.980] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And then in Rochester, I went up. Well, first I stopped like an Auburn, and I stopped the Harriet Tubman house and did a tour there, just trying to take in a little bit more of the history. I've been through this area a couple of times and stopped at a few historic sites. And we're trying to put it all together at some point that I've seen a lot of it and also in Auburn, and they have an equal rights. It's like a New York State equal rights center. [00:24:24.520] - Tamara Gruber So it deals with women's rights, civil rights and LGBTQ rights. So it's like this whole kind of all of the luminaries within New York who have fought for equal rights of some type. So that was an interesting little stop, too. Then in Rochester, I went to a place called Bill Grays, and they're famous for their red hots. So the red hot and their white hot. So apparently it's like you're talking about. [00:24:52.000] - Kim Tate Like, the candy, right? No. [00:24:53.610] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. [00:24:54.210] - Kim Tate Oh, sorry. [00:24:55.140] - Tamara Gruber I'm talking about hot dogs. Okay. [00:24:57.600] - Kim Tate Sorry. [00:24:58.410] - Tamara Gruber It's confusing, right? [00:25:00.280] - Kim Tate That's what I thought. [00:25:01.210] - Tamara Gruber Too, when I saw the red hots listed. So there's just all these different hot dog joints. They use specific hot dogs that are produced there. And this particular place, Bill Grays, has a white one. So it's like a white hot dog. Kind of looks like a sausage or something or what. But it's not those bright red hot dogs that you've seen. And sometimes in Maine, those are just kind of crazy from outer space. Hot dogs. There's kind of like a regular hot dog or a white hot dog. [00:25:31.170] - Tamara Gruber But they put a meat sauce and onion and a bunch of other stuff on it. I'm kind of used to usually and onions. Yeah. But it's not chilly. It's kind of close. So that's kind of what makes it unique, like, where you go. And I know how there's always like, oh, I like this one because they do something in their particular style. I think everyone develops a style that they like. So anyway, I try to wait one just to see what it was like. And it's fine. [00:25:59.910] - Tamara Gruber So I did that. And then I was right on Lake Ontario there. So I took a little to walk on the Lake. And every time I'm on the Great Lakes, I'm just amazed by, of course, how big they are. But you and the beach also felt like it was a nice, soft sand beach. And this is actually really nice. [00:26:15.840] - Kim Tate You know, that's an area I've never been to or discovered. So that's nice. I think it's I'm sure it feels like it's overlooked by a lot of people. But I'm sure there's a lot of people who know about it. Probably it's probably got a great tourism industry. [00:26:29.210] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. But I don't think when you think of New York, you think generally, of course, New York City, you think maybe the catskills, the other index, the finger likes things that we've talked about. And I think this section of Western New York isn't thought of as a tourist destination unless it's Niagara. But I will say Buffalo is only like half an hour from Niagara Falls, so it's easy to add in a few days there and expand what you can do in that area. It's also there's a lot of great ice cream stand. [00:26:59.900] - Tamara Gruber It's a lot of this kind of, like, fast casual types of food. It definitely brought my tum along, but it was fun to explore the different styles. But one thing that they have in Rochester that is just so cool is the Museum of Play. And I've heard about this for a long time. Everyone always says it's something you have to do when you go to Rochester. So even though I wasn't going with a kid, I was by myself. I still went to the Strong. It's the National Museum of Play, and it has this whole reading area where it's focused on different genre or characters from books. [00:27:38.710] - Tamara Gruber And it's like an amazing children's Museum, but with a real focus on play. So there's an area where it has toys from different generations. There's a Toy Hall of Fame. So it kind of reminds me of a place that you and I went to in Kansas City. [00:27:55.550] - Kim Tate Where in Kansas City. [00:27:57.130] - Tamara Gruber Where you look back and you're like, oh, I remember light bright. Remember that. Remember all this kind of different toys? So there's, like, the nostalgia factor. But then there's also an area where there's a whole Sesame Street thing or like a movement thing where you're building paper airplanes and learning, trying to see how far you can make them fly. There's a Wegman, which is like the big grocery store chain up there. So it's like the little like you would go to at a children's Museum where you're pretending to shop and pretending to check out. [00:28:27.820] - Tamara Gruber And I imagine if I lived up there, I would have had a membership and been taking my kid there all the time. So much fun. They had a whole butterfly garden. There were, like a pinball arcade, like another type of arcade, just so much to do. That's very interactive. You could easily spend hours and hours. They are you're with kids. So if you do make it to that area with kids, definitely check out the Strong Museum of Play and also downtown. There's this area called High Falls. [00:28:59.080] - Tamara Gruber That is basically I think it's like a 90 foot waterfall in the middle of town. It's like one of these surprising things that you're in the middle of what feels like not industrial city. But you have a strong presence there of Kodak and some other large commercial buildings. And there's really interesting architecture downtown. So you don't really expect to see this big waterfall in town. There's a great bridge that you can walk and get a good view of it. It's right by the genes. Have you heard of Genesee Cremale? [00:29:33.210] - Tamara Gruber Jenny Cream ale? Is that just like an East Coast thing? [00:29:36.130] - Kim Tate But I was like. [00:29:36.780] - Tamara Gruber I haven't heard it very much. I think what people's grandfather's drink, it's like an old cream ale. So it's like one of the breweries that's been around for a long time. But now they still produce that. But they also have more of, like a craft brewery side as well. So I actually had dinner there because it's kind of like the next generation of these original breweries. And I did not try the cream ale, but I tried some others, and those were pretty good. And the other thing that Rochester is really famous for is called a garbage plate. [00:30:06.930] - Tamara Gruber So it's one of their famous dishes that was created. And I was feeling exactly. It was so funny. I was talking to the tourism in person, and she was saying like, yeah, some people are like, why would you want to advertise your city with something with garbage in the name? But at the same time, so many people search for that because they know that that's the thing to eat there. So it's like, where are you going to get the best garbage plate. So I went to the place that invented the garbage plate, which is like a total little hole in the wall kind of place. [00:30:35.970] - Tamara Gruber But now everywhere you go for dinner, if it's a casual place has their version of the garbage plate. So they might call it the everything plate or something like that. But it is basically like a pile of French fries, a bunch bunch of macaroni salad, which is like a strange combination to begin with, topped with either like burgers or cheeseburgers or hot dogs without buns. And then on top of that, just like this meat sauce and onions and ketchup and mustard. And who knows what else? [00:31:07.910] - Tamara Gruber I'm not even sure. So it's just like this pile of carbs and meat I just presented to you on a plate. It's pretty funny. I think it's the kind of thing where if you are looking for something after a late night, it would hit the spot. I was really surprised at the place that I went to that originated it closed at, like, six. I'm like, is this more like a two in the morning kind of thing to eat? [00:31:31.730] - Kim Tate Maybe they need to open up a thing in Colorado or Seattle? I'm just kidding. [00:31:42.760] - Tamara Gruber But it was good to experience that because it was something that everyone's like, you got to try the garbage plate. [00:31:47.830] - Kim Tate Yeah, it sounds. I don't know. [00:31:50.500] - Tamara Gruber Oh, well, I like fries. So fries. [00:31:53.420] - Kim Tate I like fries, but are you talking about macaroni salad, like the creamy potato salad thing? [00:32:00.080] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I thought it was going to be like, Mac and cheese. Yeah. But it's like macaroni salad, like the mayonnaise based one. Yeah.I like macaroni salad, like on a picnic and stuff. [00:32:13.160] - Tamara Gruber But, like, apart from the so it would not be good for the people that are like, I don't like my food touching. [00:32:19.670] - Kim Tate Yeah. Exactly. [00:32:20.800] - Tamara Gruber Definitely not good. [00:32:21.680] - Kim Tate My husband is not one of those people. He would probably be if he ate meat. He would be all over it, I'm sure. [00:32:29.170] - Tamara Gruber But it's something like if you go there, you have to try it. Try it. [00:32:32.870] - Kim Tate No, that's awesome. I'm glad you tried it. So you could report back. I'm sure there's some people listening right now on this podcast. They're like, oh, yeah. I'm craving one right now. [00:32:40.240] - Tamara Gruber And people were, like, telling me where to go to favorite was funny. Yeah. But then I drove from Rochester over to Buffalo, and Buffalo was definitely so fun. I mean, if you're looking for a place where there's a wide selection of food, it's not just Buffalo wings. There are 35 craft breweries, five distilleries. There's a ton of street art. They have all these different areas that they've developed along the river front that are being revitalized. There's history. So there's a lot to do there now pretty busy for our three days there. [00:33:19.270] - Tamara Gruber So we had a great time. It's like a lot of what interests me. I think when you go to a place and luckily, the friend that met me, there was not somebody that travels a lot, but she was really happy to have discovered something that she would have never thought to go to. And I was like, That's what I love to do. And she's like, Well, I need to travel with you more often. I'm like, yeah, come along. [00:33:40.060] - Tamara Gruber So it was fun. But a couple of things that I'll call out. So we stayed at the downtown Marriott in Buffalo, which is a rate in the Canal Side District. So this is an area that has different boat tours going out from. We took one called the Buffalo River History Tour, and there's also one that go out more onto Lake Erie. And you can also rent kayaks and paddle boards and even those water bikes if you just want to explore the river front on your own. So you can do all of that rate in this Canal Side district. [00:34:14.370] - Tamara Gruber And there's also a naval or more of a military ships park there. So if you like to climb onto an old naval ships and submarine, that kind of thing. So that would be a fun thing to do, I think, with kids as well. And it's just an area where they have, like, a carousel. And there's a little beer garden, and they do a lot of outdoor events. So they would do music there. I know the day that we were checking out, I look down from our hotel room and you could see this big lawn. [00:34:42.550] - Tamara Gruber And there was a big yoga class taking place out there because it's very community driven to have a lot of entertainment, like free entertainment available for people as well. So that's one area there's this other area called River Works, which was about a mile from where we were staying. But we walked because it was pretty easy. And there they actually they're building out more of a whole entertainment center or district. I should say they have a couple of ice or roller banks, so they will do curling, their ice hockey, roller Derby. [00:35:18.610] - Tamara Gruber They have a ropes course. There's a couple of bars there's a brewery, there's a Tiki bar. There's one of those floating Tiki bars that leaves from there as well. And what they're building right now is like a Ferris wheel. And then they're going to have zip lining between grain silos and some other rides and entertainment there. So it's going to be like this whole district. There's quite a bit of it. They are already and you can tell that they do concerts because the inside of the one restaurant was huge and clearly had a stage where they would have live entertainment. [00:35:52.540] - Tamara Gruber So definitely like a fun place there. And another section that's being developed. It's called Silo City. So one of the things that Buffalo is really famous for is all these green silos, because their position on the Great Lakes, like corn and wheat would come in from the Midwest. And then they would put it onto trains or into the canals or whatever. And they would also process some of it there. They're actually still a General Mills plant there. And so when you're going by, it smells like Cheerios. [00:36:26.580] - Kim Tate That's funny. [00:36:27.570] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So like Cheerios or I don't know, something very sweet, because what's the one with the little leprechun, Lucky Charms, because they have a mural right next to the plants with those two things on it. So I'm like, really, it makes you hungry when you're near there that they have the largest collection of green silos in one area in the world. But a lot of them are abandoned now. And so when you go along the river front, you learn about this history. You see all these big old structures, but they're like, prime real estate for developing into different kinds of things. [00:37:01.820] - Tamara Gruber So some of them this area of Silo City, they're into, like, lofts. And so that will be like part residential, part commercial. And they have an entertainment space and some of them or they will do, like art exhibits or poetry readings or live music, something like that. And we went to one of the bar. Well, there's 1 bar that's there as well called Duende, and we went good cocktails, local craft beer. And they had live music playing outside or just like a very cool settings. So there's a lot of these cool little places, you know, when you're just walking somewhere and you're like, oh, this is neat. [00:37:40.820] - Tamara Gruber This is cool. This is not chain restaurants or overly busy, overly commercial. It has this nice modern vibe to it. And so we took a walking tour one day, and we met at one of the breweries called Resurgence Brewery. And again, that was a really cool space that felt like it was probably an industrial building and that's been transformed into this brewery. And that's something that we see here in Providence a lot, too. And great beer. So it was a lot of fun. And we definitely did a range of things for the food scene. [00:38:16.420] - Tamara Gruber We went to Ted's Hot Dogs, which is famous for their spicy meat sauce that they put on their hot dog, of course, went to Anchor Bar because Buffalo wings were invented there. Okay. [00:38:28.330] - Kim Tate I never knew. I figured it's funny how that becomes such a thing. Are you a Buffalo Wings fan to start with? [00:38:37.160] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I love buffalo wings but I like them crispy with a lot of sauce. [00:38:44.110] - Kim Tate I don't like the skin to be kind of rubbery. No, I like it crispy. And I also like lots of sauce. It's tricky finding those, because so often I find that they're not fried enough. [00:38:57.580] - Tamara Gruber I agree. And I actually will say I Anchor Bar not my favorite wings that I've ever had, but it's definitely a tourist attraction. It's the kind of thing where you can buy swag from the T shirts and all that. And it's like a food challenge. [00:39:10.850] - Kim Tate Like you have to eat a plate of wings to earn a shirt or something. [00:39:13.750] - Tamara Gruber All the locals are, like, the only people that go to Anchor Bar, the tourist. [00:39:18.380] - Kim Tate But fine. [00:39:19.130] - Tamara Gruber They have a good business for that. Everyone has their own favorites, and they also have Buffalo style pizza. They have something called sponge candy, which I remember when I was told about it. I expect it to be like those marshmallowy kind of candies that you get in a sampler box. But it's not. It's actually like the circus peanuts kind of. And I wonder if it was going to be like that, too, but it's actually more of like a coffee, like a square, like an inch square crunchy butter crunch or coffee type of candy. [00:39:51.880] - Kim Tate So I'm near bubbles in it. That's where it's sponge. [00:39:55.240] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And actually, what we found out was if you just leave it out when it's not sealed, then it I get spongy. It was not as crispy the second day. Yeah, it wasn't, again, my favorite, but it was interesting to seek it out. And it's just one of those things that you see everywhere, and people just don't understand that you don't know what sponge candy is. [00:40:15.440] - Kim Tate Yeah. That's funny. [00:40:16.850] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it was fun just exploring all of that. I would definitely recommend it if you enjoy the kind of things that I talked about, then give it a shot. Actually, I was looking into flying there, and I think they have direct flights from 20 different cities across the country, so maybe easier to get to than you might expect. [00:40:38.980] - Kim Tate That sounds cool. It sounds like you had a lot of good experiences. [00:40:41.870] - Tamara Gruber We did, and I got to hang out with a friend of mine that I used to be very close to. That just don't get to see very much anymore. So that was nice as well. The other thing we did was we visited one of the Frank Lloyd Wright houses. [00:40:53.960] - Kim Tate Oh, yeah. I saw that. [00:40:55.130] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:40:55.630] - Kim Tate That's the one architect I knew. And you were like, which architect? Yes. [00:41:00.260] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Exactly. I know it's pretty easy between his style and the fact that he is probably the most famous architect. It's an easy guess, right? [00:41:08.980] - Kim Tate Exactly. Well, it sounds like we both had kind of a nice little end to our summer, and you got to eat some good food. I got some good family time. And now, as we mentioned earlier, cross our fingers that we will see each other in person in October. [00:41:24.520] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. We will let you guys know so you can follow along. Yeah. Otherwise, good luck with back to school shall even mention that that are going back to school. [00:41:33.890] - Kim Tate Should you even mention what? [00:41:35.330] - Tamara Gruber That we both have seniors? [00:41:38.320] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:41:38.540] - Tamara Gruber I know. [00:41:40.330] - Kim Tate For those of you who know that we are in the stressful College application time frame of our lives right now, right? [00:41:49.210] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, especially for me. It's like the last is the last that it's like. [00:41:55.330] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:41:55.960] - Tamara Gruber The thing of having only one is that it's your first and last at the same time. [00:42:00.130] - Kim Tate Right? I guess for me, it's also the first one. I feel kind of guilty because my first one's kind of mad that she didn't know more advance. And so she's telling her little sister everything and making me feel really bad. Why didn't you have me take more AP classes? [00:42:15.740] - Tamara Gruber I'm like. I don't know. So anyways, well, I'm pretty sure if you were, like, take all of these AP classes, she would have said, I don't want to take all these AP classes. [00:42:27.260] - Kim Tate Well, it's just weird. It's sad how competitive it's gotten because she doesn't love history and routine, so I would never push her into those APS. So she took all the APS she could with math and science. But when you're going against people who've had seven and ten APS, it's a little hard to show up before, but she's a great student, and I'm sure she's going to end up where she's supposed to end up and have a great College experience. [00:42:54.170] - Tamara Gruber I and Hannah will tell her she's better off that she didn't take a push because it's not really fun class. [00:43:01.900] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:43:02.200] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. Yeah. So anyway, best of luck to everyone out there this year, back to school because obviously continues to be challenging. [00:43:12.660] - Kim Tate Those who are going back to school. Enjoy your travels. I'm on your time not having to manage it, but, yeah. Thanks for joining us again. And we will look forward to talking to you guys again. [00:43:23.260] - Tamara Gruber Soon. Take care.

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196 Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico (Beyond Cancun)

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 31, 2021 43:47

We all know Cancun, and maybe even the Riviera Maya, Tulum, or Playa del Carmen...but did you know there is so much more to the Yucatan Peninsula? This week we chat with Rossana Wyatt from Life is Full of Adventures to learn more about the Yucatan state of Mexico, Mérida, Mayan ruins, and other things to see on the Yucatan peninsula. ABOUT OUR SPONSOR: ROOM STEALS Today's episode is sponsored by Room Steals. Listeners may remember Room Steals from our discussion on finding hotel deals in Episode 185, but Room Steals is a Chrome browser extension that works alongside existing booking sites to show you what the wholesale price is for that room. Just install the browser extension and search for a hotel as you usually would on Hotels.com, Booking.com, Expedia, or Google. Once you've done your initial search, Room Steals will show you in a pop-up if that same room is available for less. If it is, you can click on that pop-up and book it directly through Room Steals. Downloading and using Room Steals is free; however, if you want to book a discounted room you have to pay an annual membership fee. Listeners can save 20% off the annual membership fee with promo code vacationmavens. If you travel multiple times in a year, the subscription will quickly pay for itself. One listener already saved $400 using Room Steals on her first booking! To learn more, visit roomsteals.com. That's roomsteals.com and use promo code vacationmavens to save 20% off your membership to Room Steals, and we thank them for their support. About Rossana Wyatt Rossana is a gluten-free lifestyle & travel writer specializing in family & solo travel, she loves discovering new foods & adventures on her journeys as she explores. Rossana tells the stories of the destinations she has visited, sharing her love of travel, her wanderlust and enticing her readers to explore these places on their own. When she is not traveling, Rossana works as a social media strategist in the tourism industry. She brings people and brands together, creating campaigns that build awareness and community, while building influencer relationships. Where to Go in the Yucatan, Mexico Cancun is part of the Mexican state of Quintana Roo, on the Caribbean-facing side of the Yucatan Peninsula At the moment, you don't need to quarantine or test to enter Mexico but that is subject to change. Keep in mind to that return to the U.S. or Canada you will need a test to return to your home country and many hotels do on-site testing. Keep in mind that Mexican citizens are only about 27% vaccinated so you need to be aware of keeping the local community safe as well through masking and testing. When you get beyond Cancun and into the state of Yucatan, there is so much history and culture to explore. Instead of flying into Cancun, to explore the Yucatan, it actually makes more sense to connect through Mexico City and fly into Merida, since getting from the Cancun airport to Merida is a bit more challenging if you aren't driving. Chichen Itza is about 2.5 hours from Merida and the beach is 30 minutes from the city center. Las Coloradas has pink sand salt pond beaches is about 1.5 hours from Merida. Unless you speak Spanish well or know the area, it is best to join tour groups or private tours from Merida.There are many beautiful haciendas just outside of the city that have their own pool or rooftop patios if you want more privacy, but there are also beautiful boutique hotels in the renovated haciendas within the city. You could also split your time between Merida for the city vibe and Progresso on the beach. Cenotes are fun to do with kids as you can swim through these ancient sinkholes. Be sure to shower first and don't wear sunscreen or creams. Just keep in mind that the water is from underground and is chilly. Izamal is known as the Yellow City and was named one of Mexico's "Pueblos Mágicos" in 2002 that are recognized for their magical qualities. It is a beautiful city to explore and is built on an ancient Mayan city and the ruins are scattered throughout the city. The Convent of San Antonio de Padua is one of the most well-known buildings in the area and has the second largest atrium next to St. Peter's in the Vatican. You can still hear Mayan spoken in Izamal. Izamal would be a great place to stay overnight to have more time to enjoy and soak in the magic of the city and enjoy the wonderful restaurants.Valladolid is another great town to visit, and it has a cenote in the middle of the town. Plan to visit the Mayan temples and buildings in Chichen Itza and Uxmal. At Uxmal you can climb on the buildings. Chichen Itza has an amazing evening light show that also covers a lot of history. There is also a driving route that explores Ruta Puuc and ruins near Merida including: Kabah, Labna, and Sayil. There are also plantation-style hacienda or farms to visit. It is important to look up safety warnings for each specific city/state that you are visiting before you go. It is recommended to drink bottled water or using water purification processes. Carrying cash is best for small towns but don't carry large amounts, carry it in different spots, and be aware of pick pockets. You may need to adjust your meal times to local customs. Always wear sunscreen and dress according to the weather. Hurricane season is usually late summer to early fall. Spring is an ideal time to go because it is very hot in the summer. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.000] - Kim Tate Dive into Mayan culture this week as we talk about the Yucatan Peninsula. [00:00:16.070] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.710] - Kim Tate This week's episode is again brought to us by Room Steals. Our listeners may remember that Room Steals talked to us in Episode 185, and it's all about using a Chrome browser called Room Steals that works alongside booking sites to make sure that you're getting a wholesale price for that room. And what you do is you install the extension and then you shop for a hotel like you normally would on your favorite booking site, whether that's something like Hotels.com, Booking.com, Expedia, or even Google. [00:00:57.390] - Kim Tate And then once you've done your search and pick your hotel, Room Steals will show you a pop up to see if that room is available for a cheaper wholesale rate. When you click on that pop up, then you can book the room directly through Room Steals. Downloading and using Room Steals is totally free. You can just install the browser and be able to see if they can get you a better deal. If you want to book the discounted rate, you're going to have to pay an annual membership fee, and our listeners are going to be given 20% off their fee with the code Vacation Mavens Again, Vacation Mavens. [00:01:28.260] - Kim Tate So if you travel more multiple times a year or even if you're shopping around, the nice thing is that you get to test it out before you pay. And it's possible that you'll make up the annual membership fee in savings with just one trip. So go ahead and check out Room Steals again. It's an extension. And then if you use the code Vacation Mavens, you'll save 20% off your membership, and we thank them for their support. [00:01:50.680] - Tamara Gruber And if any of you guys have already signed up for Rooms Steams and had some savings, please let us know. We'd love to share what you've saved and what your experience has been. So, Kim, it sounds like you had some good news recently with the Canadian border opening and maybe you get a chance to go see Paul's family. [00:02:09.490] - Kim Tate Yeah, we're really excited. I'm still crossing my fingers that it all works out, but we are planning to finally get to go see Paul's family. It'll be the first time we've seen them in two years since we haven't been able to travel either way. And so we're really looking forward to it. And Canada did come out and say that they would welcome vaccinated Americans and our family of four all qualifies as that. So we're excited to hopefully head up there and visit his family. [00:02:38.670] - Kim Tate Finally. [00:02:39.260] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. It's still a little complicated. From what I understand, but I know that you've dug into it a lot deeper, obviously, because you are going to have some Canadian family come stay with you. And now you're going to go stay with them. And so can you kind of walk our listeners through what are the things that people need to be aware of if they want to go visit Canada right now from the US? [00:02:58.640] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. So I think that's the first thing to mention is that this is Canada has said that they will allow vaccinated US citizens to come up into Canada. There are testing protocols, which I'll talk about later, but the US recently said they are still keeping the borders closed to Canadians. So that was a big for non essential travel. So that was a big hindrance. So our family can't come see us, however we are able to go up to them. But like I said, there are a few things that have to be done in order to make that happen. [00:03:30.860] - Kim Tate And I just want to specify right now the information is still very unknown a little bit. It's a little up in the air. And there's also how it's being handled if you're flying into Canada versus if you're driving across the border, it's a little unknown about how exactly things will be handled with that. But right now, the policies that I know of and that is currently being released is that in order to cross the border into Canada, you have to be vaccinated. And they have one of those apps. [00:04:01.370] - Kim Tate It's called I think it's called ArriveCan. And you use that app to help upload and share your vaccination information on that app, as well as you have to have a PCR test done within 72 hours. Now, this is a tricky one where Canada has actually said they have not mentioned that they will allow those Binax that the US is allowing. They actually want it to be done at a laboratory type facility. So whether that will adjust and they'll start allowing those tests, I'm not sure. [00:04:30.840] - Kim Tate So right now you would have to go get a test done at a lab. And so we'll be scheduling that. And again, it has to be 72 hours before your travel day and those results that are uploaded in your app as well, then you're allowed to cross the border. And when you cross the border, there are, this is where I say you have to keep checking because it's a little unsure of whether they will require you to test. Again. I think this might be a thing where they'll do spot checking if you're flying into an airport and maybe as well, if you're crossing at a land border, they might spot check and say, okay, you need to pull over and get tested. [00:05:04.080] - Kim Tate Again. I'm not sure how that's going to actually work out once it opens on August 9. So that's how you're covered there, and you can get into Canada, and that basically you're exempt then from the quarantine, which being vaccinated to exempt you from that. So right now, Canada had been saying that you could come into Canada with all these tests, but then you would also have to quarantine for 14 days, and their quarantine was pretty strict. You had to have separate facility like you couldn't just go stay with your family. [00:05:33.680] - Kim Tate You had to have completely separate facilities, which which was not doable for most Americans or US citizens wanting to visit into Canada. [00:05:43.170] - Tamara Gruber Right. I don't really want to sit in a hotel room for not much to pay for a hotel. [00:05:48.340] - Kim Tate Yeah. Exactly. So that's where that all comes down to. And then the other part of that, then is the US is still requiring Americans who are traveling back internationally to be tested 72 hours before they cross the border. And so what we're actually going to do is have those rapid test and take them up to Canada with us. And hopefully that will take care of it, because the tricky thing is, and this was part of the thing when we originally thought Canada was just going to require tests. [00:06:17.210] - Kim Tate Our Canadian family was trying to figure out how they would get tested in the States without having to pay $150 per person. And there wasn't a good option at that time. Whereas, you know, for most US citizens, we can go and testing and vaccines are covered by the US government right now for easy to go. Yeah. But for a Canadian who doesn't have US insurance to be able to prove they would have to pay out of pocket. So that's one of the other. I think over time, as things work out, it'll maybe become a little more easier to navigate. [00:06:52.940] - Kim Tate But then when the United States came out and said no, they're going to continue to extend the closures, it became an on issue because it was two whammies. They couldn't get around either. [00:07:03.520] - Kim Tate So that's kind of the situation [00:07:05.290] - Tamara Gruber and a couple of things that come to mind when I'm listening to you talk about that. Like, number one is I've noticed because every time I get basically anything, I go get tested if I feel like a little bit rundown. So I've noticed that a lot of the testing sites around me are closing end of July, something like that. So I think we've gotten used to as Americans having a lot of access to testing, thankfully. And I think that it's not that it's going to be more limited, but there's going to be fewer testing centers. [00:07:36.440] - Tamara Gruber So you might have to plan a little bit more in advance. And to understand, you might have to drive a little further. Or you might have to book your appointment a little bit earlier to make sure you get the time slots that you want things like that to keep aware of. And then on the way back, I know we mentioned when we were talking in the episode we talked about in Greece, but the next text that you can buy, like a CVS aren't the ones that are valid for travel back to the US. [00:08:00.980] - Tamara Gruber So just make sure for people that are considering it, to get the ones that are qualified for that. [00:08:06.400] - Kim Tate And you have to buy those. I did some reading and research. I had an article which we can link to in the show notes, but I think it's through. I think it's Emed. It's kind of a random website where you can buy them and you buy them as a six pack for $150. And the other tip that they recommend is that they recommend, actually, if you're really relying on traveling, that you buy each person should have two, just in case there's an inconclusive or if there's any issues in administration, I don't think we're going to travel with eight. [00:08:38.960] - Kim Tate I think we'll have the the six pack and hope that the two extras will cover our family of four if we have an inconclusive or if we need to redo one. But just a mind just for everyone to be mindful of. It's something to keep in mind. [00:08:51.980] - Tamara Gruber We were debating that because we're planning on going to Aruba in November and who knows what the situation will be and if the world will change, whatever. But just thinking ahead, we're like, oh, if testing isn't available down there, maybe we would buy one six pack for the three of us. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe we should at least get two. Yeah. So it's definitely something to think about. I wonder you don't want to be stuck without anything? [00:09:16.580] - Kim Tate Well, the Caribbean and Mexico have been so great about at least the tourist resorts. All inclusive resorts are really going out of their way to make sure that US citizens have access to testing. So that is kind of one benefit. And I'm sure I guarantee you, in Canada, it's probably not too hard to figure out a way. And once we were up there, I could be able to figure out a way to go get tested. And it would probably literally cost us $23 out of pocket or something knowing how they handle their medical right there. [00:09:48.940] - Kim Tate But just we didn't want to risk that. [00:09:51.850] - Tamara Gruber I'm actually heading to Buffalo, New York, and I will be up there right after the border opens. And part of me was like, oh, maybe it's really close to Niagara Falls. Maybe I should just swing by. I've been to Niagara Falls before, but just for kicks, when you're so close, you feel like you should just go. And I'm like, oh, and I can just walk across the border then. I'm like, yeah, but how am I going to get the get tested to think about usually something like that. [00:10:19.530] - Tamara Gruber You could literally just walk across the border on the bridge, walk back an hour later, but more things to think about. [00:10:26.130] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. [00:10:27.320] - Tamara Gruber I'm glad I'm happy for you that this is finally happening. I was very excited. Glad you'll get to see family. And hopefully this will be a positive sign for things moving forward. I know there's been movement in terms of visiting the UK as well, and we'll just see, obviously everything is constantly changing, so definitely everyone needs to stay vigilant and keep up with the news. But I guess it's a positive sign for now. Right. [00:10:58.620] - Kim Tate Yeah. We're going to take it as that. And we also talked about just trying to be more mindful of watching our own exposure during the time we're up there. And then also leading up to the week two weeks before we leave because we don't want to make all these plans and then have everything fall through because one of us test positive. And so that's the other thing is you really don't want to test positive. If you're doing all these tests, what will happen if someone test positive? [00:11:27.260] - Kim Tate So make sure that you guys are all thinking ahead of what is the worst case scenario. What do we do if that happens? Yeah. [00:11:36.640] - Tamara Gruber We are about to talk to a Canadian and we're going to talk to her about our neighbor to the south. Yeah. [00:11:43.790] - Kim Tate We're covering all of North America. [00:11:45.380] - Tamara Gruber To stay tuned, we're going to talk about the Yucatan. [00:11:58.320] So this week we're here with Rosanna Wyatt. And she is a gluten free lifestyle and travel writer specializing in family and solo travel. She loves discovering new foods and adventures on her journeys. As she explores, Rosanna tells the stories of the destination she has visited, sharing her love of travel, her wander last and enticing her readers to explore these places on their own. When she's not traveling, Rosanna works as a social media strategist in the tourism industry. [00:12:23.550] - Tamara Gruber She brings people and brands together, creating campaigns that build awareness and community while building influence to relationships. So welcome to the Vacation Mavens. [00:12:34.940] - Rossana Wyatt Thank you. So nice to be here. [00:12:37.480] - Tamara Gruber And I guess we should specify that you're in Canada. [00:12:44.720] - Rossana Wyatt I'm located just west of Toronto. We are in across the border. [00:12:50.840] - Tamara Gruber Across the border that by the time this comes out be open once again. [00:12:55.960] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah, it will. [00:12:58.890] - Kim Tate At least one way I was going to say which way it'll be open. [00:13:01.410] - Tamara Gruber That's true. [00:13:02.030] - Rossana Wyatt A and then all that depends on what's happening with the variants as well. [00:13:07.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, of course. Right. But we're hopeful. So before we dive into our topic, today is going to be about places in the Yucatan. And before we talk about that, I just figured as we're talking about changing guidelines and rules and all that kind of stuff, I know people are already thinking about winter break and spring break even. Do you have any insight that you can share for right now? Obviously, we know the situation is always changing, but for people that do want to visit Mexico from the North America, either the US or Canada. [00:13:40.760] - Rossana Wyatt Well, I at the moment, there really aren't any rules about quarantine. They do like you to have tests, but then again, they're not strict about it. They do have protocols in some areas are more strict than others. So depending on where you're going to be heading, of course, all hotels will have access to the testing information for when you're coming back, because there are going to be different expectations where you're coming back across the border and restrictions. But there are going to be specific protocols according to where you are going to be going. [00:14:16.260] - Rossana Wyatt But all hotels, most public places will have specific, I guess, disinfection and cleaning protocols in place, and many places will still have masking going on. But Mexico is just starting to ramp up on their vaccination schedule. So there are people that I know that won't be getting their vaccines until sometime in October. And that's the first one, whether it's Canadians, Americans when we're going over. And even though we're vaxxed, we still have to remember that we may have protection for ourselves, but we can be carrying that symptomatically, and we have to be careful where we're going and making sure that we're being safe for everyone else as well. [00:14:59.330] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah. [00:14:59.570] - Kim Tate That's a great, great insight. And I think people don't always see that that it's not just like you're safe. It's also about doing your part as a world citizen and making sure that you're keeping the communities that you're visiting, keeping those people safe as well. Exactly. [00:15:14.270] - Rossana Wyatt And when you're heading into different areas that don't have the vaccination rates that we have here, we have to be extra careful because we can be annoyingly spreading it further. So although we keep ourselves safe, like you said, we need to make sure everyone is safe. [00:15:33.290] - Kim Tate Yeah. And I think it's also just important that we all know how this has been such a fluid and quick changing time. And so the best thing to do is when you're researching whether you want to travel, is researching exactly where you're going and what the rules and regulations are for that there'll be rules. Like you said, the United States or Canada will have their own set of rules on getting back into the country. And then, of course, Mexico, depending on which state you go into, will have their own protocols depending on when you're visiting. [00:16:02.570] - Kim Tate The best thing to do is to research that probably at that time. [00:16:06.480] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah. And then, as I said, they do have most of the towns and cities within the States themselves will have different areas where you can have access to testing so that you can get it before you come back to your own home state or home province. [00:16:21.740] - Kim Tate So I know a lot of all inclusives were doing that to try and get their tourists back because they will make it as easy as possible. [00:16:27.740] - Rossana Wyatt Which makes it very nice because then you don't have to go finding right. Right there. Yeah. [00:16:33.400] - Kim Tate Well, we will jump right in then. And obviously, Cancun is what most people think about when people start thinking about the Yucatan Peninsula, and it's considered popular, affordable destination, popular with families. But it's nice to know what else there is to do beyond that hotel strip and all inclusive and everything that so many people are used to. And so can you help maybe talk about some other areas of the Yucatan Peninsula that you're going to be talking about today and focusing on? [00:17:02.620] - Rossana Wyatt Absolutely. Yes. And as you said, most people know about Cancun and the different areas around there. But there is so much more to the Yucatan peninsula itself it encompasses both UK and Quintana Roo. As you said, most people know Cancun is the beach destination, and it is a big hub that people fly into. But the Yucatan itself has so much history and so many areas to explore. The Mayans are there's so much culture in history in the Mayan civilization, and most of that was centered around the Yucatan itself, which is right next to Quintana Roo, where Cancun is located. [00:17:45.260] - Rossana Wyatt The history, the beaches, the ancient ruins there are so many cenotes as well, I'll bet, are located all over the state. They are also located in Quintana Roo, but you'll find many more within Yucatan itself. But there are historic cities and haciendas to visit. So there's always so much more to explore. And the food is actually kind of cool because what they do is they do use a lot of their cultural and bring that back the history into the food. So you see them cooking with fire in pits in the ground as well, which is actually quite neat. [00:18:17.970] - Rossana Wyatt And they have their special little spices that they use. So there's so much in the Yucatan area itself to explore. [00:18:24.300] - Kim Tate It sounds like what you're describing also is just a much more culturally aware visit than just an all inclusive on the beach. It's nice that if people are actually wanting to understand a little bit about the history and the culture, it sounds like this is the kind of vacation that you might want to plan. [00:18:40.440] - Rossana Wyatt Yes. Absolutely. And it's so great, especially if you have kids. There is so much history there. And it's really cool to see that be able to actually see the physical most of the pyramids within Yucatan. You can't climb because they want to make sure that they don't get ruined because they've been around for so many years. But there are a couple that they still allow the kids to climb on and to explore and to sort of climb into. And it's neat for them to even see they sort of step into history, because that's what you're doing. [00:19:12.870] - Rossana Wyatt You're stepping into those historical sites and you're stepping into that history, which is really amazing. And then when you have some of the Mayan gods go through and they're telling you the retelling that whole history and what they're doing and what things were for, what buildings were used for. It's really quite cool. [00:19:31.660] - Tamara Gruber Well, I remember my very first time that I flew. My very first time that I went out of the country was with a Spanish trip from high school. I think I was 16 and we flew to Mexico City and then to Merida. And can you maybe help our listeners understand if you wanted to visit Yucatan, the state of Yucatan, and see some of these ruins and things like that, where would you fly into? Where would you base yourself? And then maybe if you moved around a bit like, where are some of the top places that they should look at staying? [00:20:06.560] - Rossana Wyatt Well, actually, you did it perfectly because you go into Mexico City and you can fly into Merida from there and then you can base into Media. Then everything is located fairly close to there, Chichen Itza, which is one of the main ruin sites, is about two and a half hours from Merida. You have the beach, which is like 30 minutes from Merida. Then you have La Coloradas, which are about, I believe, an hour and a half from Merida. But then there are smaller ruins as well. [00:20:40.250] - Rossana Wyatt Within an hour drive an hour and a half drive from Merida. So everything is pretty central to Merida, so that's probably one of the better places to fly into. If you were to go to fly into Cancun, it can be a little bit more difficult to get to that area if you're not driving. [00:20:56.520] - Tamara Gruber So it's not as easy to get a connecting flight there. [00:20:59.350] - Rossana Wyatt No, not from Cancun. But Mexico City has many flights into Media throughout the day so that it is easier to do that. But if you wanted to to drive, you could fly into Cancun and then drive into it's about 3 hours. If you're going from Cancun to Merida it is about a three hour drive. [00:21:20.280] - Kim Tate So are you recommending then would you say people should rent a car and have their own car? Or do you think it's better done as kind of like tour group or day trips or hiring a driver? What would you say is the best way to if you are basing yourself out of Merida. [00:21:38.080] - Rossana Wyatt if you're basing yourself in merida, tour groups are probably one of the better ways to go unless you can speak the language and you can hire a driver. So that would probably be the other option is to do some of the the tour. They have many tour groups that will go out to different destinations or you can hire to me honestly, if you don't know the area and you don't speak the language quite well, I think it's probably best that you stay with a tour group itself that will go out that has different time schedules and things that will be going out through the day as I said many of these things can be done on day trips. [00:22:17.080] - Tamara Gruber And do you find would it be good to rent a Hacienda if you are a family or better to stay at a hotel? Do you have any places that you would recommend? [00:22:26.990] - Rossana Wyatt There are some incredible haciendas within some of the cities. The Hacienda themselves are absolutely beautiful. Sometimes they have their own little pool and some of them have some rooftop patio that you can take a look at and see the rest of the city. And they're really well taken care of. But they're also the one hotel that we stayed at a a beautiful and closed courtyard with a pool. So some of the buildings are they're all a colonial architecture and they're just absolutely stunning. And they take all that in and work it in with upgrading some of the interior of the buildings. [00:23:02.150] - Rossana Wyatt But I would stay in a smaller boutique hotel, which they've sort of taken some of the Asian doesn't turn them into these but hotels. Or if you wanted to go out of town for a little bit and rent Hacienda itself, that would be another option, depending on the size of your but I think one of the smaller boutique hotels within the city is probably a great place to start. [00:23:30.500] - Kim Tate So I have a quick question. I say family is going to spend a week down there. How do you recommend maybe like what are some of the beaches or cities or something they should check out? Or do you recommend they split their trip between two destinations? So how would you recommend, like what are the must see kind of in that region? If they had one week? And how would you time that? [00:23:53.160] - Rossana Wyatt Well, Progresso. Like I said, Progresso is only a 30 minutes drive from Merida, the beach there. So you could certainly either if you wanted to base in progress or you could even do that and then stay away from some of the business of the city. Not that it is that busy compared to some, but Progresso would help get the feel of the beach area. And you could relax, have a few days relaxing there, and then also go into the city when you wanted to be able to do that. [00:24:20.800] - Rossana Wyatt But then again, you probably they do have a great transportation as well, so that you could go back and forth. But the cenotes is probably a fun sort of thing for would be a fun thing for the kids, because they're the ancient sink holes that the Mayans used to use for a groundwater and depending on some of the rituals and things like that, and also they're great for swimming for the kids because it's a different experience and they're absolutely stunning. The no two sites are like either, and some of them are quite small and some of them are quite open. [00:24:59.630] - Rossana Wyatt They would be fun for kids to explore. But the other thing is you have to make sure that when you're swimming in the cenotes that you shower, most areas will have shower facilities before because they don't want you going in with any kind of creams or anything on you, because that can hurt whatever plant life is within the site itself. [00:25:17.890] - Tamara Gruber Is it like the one in Riviera Maya, where there's some organized where you to tube through, or is it more like go on your own? [00:25:27.810] - Rossana Wyatt Well, they do have some where you can go, but you don't tube through any of them. Some of them you can go down through stairs. They're actually just like a hole. You go to specific areas you drive up, and there's like a little area where you shower and stuff. And then there's a staircase that's taken down, and some of them are not that deep, but they are not in the same they're not the same as you see the ones that they show through Cancun with that you're going through in these different little boats to different little caves and things like that. [00:26:02.410] - Rossana Wyatt But they're not like that at all. [00:26:03.640] - Tamara Gruber The water still very cold. [00:26:05.610] - Rossana Wyatt It is it is, but it's just they have this I had this huge way of sunlight coming in, and it's just absolutely spectacular. It's so magical just to see it. And as I said, no two are alike because they're different sizes. There's different vegetation growing. They're different depths. But it's a cool experience for kids to sort of be able to jump in. And some of them, they have these ropes that you just sort of swing and you jump in and others you can sort of walk in, but not all of them. [00:26:40.330] - Rossana Wyatt So they're all different. [00:26:42.130] - Tamara Gruber So you never get going to get the same feeling from are there certain ones that are more famous or ones that you would really recommend? Or is it really just you kind of ask the hotel where to go? [00:26:51.040] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah. And then actually, one of the cities has a note in the middle of the city, but you just kind of have to go with the tour group that will take you there because you can just rent a car with a driver and they'll take you out there and you can go out for the day or even take a side trip out there's. Also, aside from the Cenotes themselves, just some of the cities as wonderful historic city. Izamal is known as the Yellow City, and it was named Pueblos Magicos in 2002 by the Mexican government. [00:27:28.140] - Rossana Wyatt They're basically towns are recognized for the quote, their magical qualities, whether it's their incredible beauty, the rich history, or some extraordinary Legends that they're known for. But this city is when you look at all the yellow, it's this beautiful, rich goldish yellow. And it truly is magical seeing it everywhere with the colonial architecture and this hue of yellow. But it gives the city kind of an energy. And this city is actually built upon ancient Mayan city and you can see some of the ancient Mayan ruins here and there. [00:28:08.210] - Rossana Wyatt And the convent of San Antonio de Padua is one of the most well known buildings in the area. And apparently it is the second largest, quote atrium after St Peter's, the square in the Vatican. And it's a big cultural significance as part of the homage for Catholics as well. So that's another big draw for many people. It's a very small town. And as I said, you can actually hear the Mayan language spoken because it's still spoken a lot of the homes there so that they retain a lot of their cultural qualities. [00:28:42.200] - Rossana Wyatt And it's a beautiful city. Like I said, the energy and the light just seen that all the Arc protector just in viewed with this incredible color. [00:28:52.600] - Tamara Gruber Is that one that you would maybe stay out overnight or still just visit on a day trip? [00:28:57.290] - Rossana Wyatt I would stay overnight only because actually there are a couple of different little areas there, and they have a lot of, I guess, what you would call sandos, but they're all little homes that you can rent, and they have their own little sort of courtyard, and they're just absolutely stunning. The city itself just walking around. And the people are so warm. It's really quite beautiful. And of course, they have many wonderful restaurants as well. And with the food. So it's always nice to be able to integrate that because that's part of their culture. [00:29:31.300] - Kim Tate So I know you mentioned some of the cenotes and you said Progresso is a great beach to go to. And then, of course, you just talked about a Izamal that sounds like a wonderful little town. What are some of the other highlights that you think if people are spending time in that region, where are some other places they should check out or plan to visit? [00:29:50.620] - Rossana Wyatt Well, Valladolid is another city. It's a very colonial town. It has a lot of historic buildings and plazas. And this one also has the Cenote in the middle of the town, the one that I mentioned. But along with Chichen Itza, there is another one about an hour and a half from Merida Uxmal U-X-M-A-L, and this is the one that I was mentioning that they let people sort of climb all over and actually go through. And it is larger or an area in ground area, then Chichen Itza is, even though Chichen Itza is more well known to people. [00:30:28.540] - Rossana Wyatt So there is also a driving route if you wanted to take hire a car. And it explores different Mayan ruins near Merida itself. It's called Ruta Puuc. And it goes across the hilly forest and train, and it passes up three different Mayan ruins. They are the Tie Pac and Lana, which I know that you probably didn't get all of it, but I can install them out if you want. [00:30:59.500] - Tamara Gruber If you can give them to us, we can put it in the show notes. So anyone can look it up there. [00:31:04.760] - Rossana Wyatt And they lead all those if you're following that route along, they will actually lead to their Mayan ruins at Kabah. So there's that. And there's also outside of Merida itself, there are lots of haciendas that are known. The people in Yucatan know as Hacienda are these big plantations very similar to the plantations in the US. So they were big, sprawling manufacturing and farming States at the time, especially around the turn of the century, when they did a lot of the crop is the Hannekin or Sisal. So they were very popular back then. [00:31:45.290] - Rossana Wyatt And then once all the synthetic fibers came to be, they sort of started to fall back and unfortunately lost a lot of the work because of the synthetic fibers. So right now, a lot of those haciendas are being restored and they're being used as big event venues. But there are also some of them also have a lot of the manufactured area sort of still there. And so they do some of the tours through some of those areas. So many are turned into luxury accommodations, but they still retain a lot of those production areas. [00:32:19.350] - Rossana Wyatt So you can actually tour them and learn what the unique history and the Hannekin production itself, because it was huge. The production from the Yucatan was sent out all over the world, and these cases became quite wealthy until, as I said, the synthetic fibers came to be small. [00:32:40.640] - Tamara Gruber Uxmal, If I'm pronouncing it correctly, that was the first place that I went on my little trip with my Spanish class, and I have a picture of me climbing the pyramids so that you can still do that, although I remember being very steep and very little scary coming back down. [00:32:55.590] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah. Ok. Uxmal, unfortunately, because of the erosion and everything else, they really want to try and keep as much as many people off of it as possible. Yeah. The one thing I have to say is the fact that we can to have an evening light show, which is really quite cool because they go through a lot of the history and they explore why they moved to certain areas and how they did certain things and stuff. But then we also did the sunrise tour, where we were the only group out there. [00:33:30.830] - Rossana Wyatt And you could just watch the sunrise over the ruins, which are still just incredible. And you could see how they would see it first thing in the morning. And it was really quite spectacular. So I would recommend that if they can. [00:33:43.210] - Tamara Gruber There's so much emphasis on early mythology and things that I always go back to the Rick Riordan books that brought so much interest to Percy Jackson, the Greek and the Romans, and then they be Egyptian. But my daughter has always been very fascinated by Mayan culture. And also it's just absolutely amazing when you are there and you realize the knowledge and how much was learned. I remember I think it was Chichen Itza where it's like on the Solstice, it looks like the way that the light hits, it almost looks like a giant snake is coming down the side. [00:34:14.380] - Tamara Gruber It's mind blowing. And so I think for kids that are interested in some of these, like, I don't want to say just mythology, because these are ancient cultures, but the beliefs of ancient civilizations and things, it really is a great place to absolutely. [00:34:31.580] - Rossana Wyatt And the best thing is when you're talking to one of the guides, the Mayan guys, they had it handed down to them. And there are really only a handful that know the actual cultural aspects of the historical aspects, because even though some of the languages carried on, not everything is passed along. So it's neat to hear how everything, how it's been down and so much of the history itself. But yeah, it's absolutely incredible. And it really boggles your mind how much they knew and how much what word I'm looking for, how progressive they were, I guess, because of everything they knew, they were such they were so lightened for the time that they were in. [00:35:15.270] - Rossana Wyatt Does that make sense? Yeah. [00:35:17.390] - Tamara Gruber Until you talk about the sacrificial well. [00:35:21.230] - Rossana Wyatt I wasn't talking to it. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. [00:35:24.920] - Tamara Gruber I know exactly what you mean. Well, I know one of the concerns that people have when traveling in Mexico, especially in a region that is not dominated by resorts and all inclusive and things is just around safety. It sounds like you're mostly talking about doing some guided tours, which obviously you don't have to worry about wandering off on your own there. But do you have any thoughts just about safety in this particular area? [00:35:50.280] - Rossana Wyatt Well, actually, I found it very safe because even though I was part of the group itself, I was staying somewhere separate from them. So I would walk back and forth on my own. And then I actually had some time on my own. So I went to explore in and around Merida on my own so that I had no worries about trying to explain that area. Izamal was the same because I ended up walking back and forth from where the others were staying. And like I said, it was just walking in another. [00:36:22.910] - Rossana Wyatt I felt just a safer than walking here in my area here because people they were just regular people from the town. And I didn't have to worry about anything. And even in Merida, which is much larger and they're much more people, I had no worries about safety. Obviously, you don't want to be going and doing something silly and standing out like a sore thumb. But my daughter says that I look over that could fit into the different crowds and stuff. So I don't know it's with anything else. [00:37:00.360] - Rossana Wyatt Don't do anything that you wouldn't do at home and don't stick out like a sore thumb. [00:37:04.990] - Tamara Gruber Well, and I think it's important to you here in the US, at least. I'm sure Canada has something similar. But you can look up safety warnings and things about places that you're going to visit. And I think it is important to dig down into the particular state or city that you're visiting and not just look at kind of country level or something. [00:37:22.010] - Rossana Wyatt Yeah. And every state is going to be different. There are some States within Mexico that have a little bit more crime, and what you do is you stay away from them. Even areas within Quintana Roo that people don't know about, they're more well known are the ones that people know about the crime that are going on because Quintana Roo more popular areas. So crime there is more well known, I guess, in a sense. And people tend to just sort of stick to their resort areas. But within the Yucatan itself, you can certainly go out and go on to different tours and not really worry about them so much. [00:38:03.920] - Rossana Wyatt So because it is one of the safer areas in Mexico. [00:38:07.500] - Kim Tate It's good to know and have your insight on that. So do you have any final tips to wrap up about traveling to the Yucatan that you think people should keep in mind those trusty travel tips, somebody who's been there? [00:38:22.470] - Rossana Wyatt Well, the water is purified most within the Merida, the city is getting most of the purification done. But the thing that you had to remember some of the tanks because a lot of those buildings have big tanks that they used to hold. This is cisterns where they used to hold the water. And because they have been all upgraded, even though the water itself may be purified, it isn't always what comes out. Does that make sense? Yeah. So it is always good to make sure that you're wary of that. [00:38:56.930] - Rossana Wyatt So you're either drinking bottled water or you have something that may help disinfect your water itself. Like I have one of those water bottles that actually it's called the crazy cap that actually purifies water itself. And that helps a lot because it just sort of cleans the water. I can put in water from wherever it'll purify it and clean it. And that way I have water on demand all the time. I but the other thing is maybe carrying cash is best instead of credit, because not every place if you go, especially if you're going into a small town, everyone has the credit capability. [00:39:34.010] - Rossana Wyatt You'll also be able to barter a little bit more when you're carrying cash and don't carry large amounts. And as always, just be weary because I mean, they're pick pockets everywhere and people the flight bump you never know in carrying in different spots. But the same thing with pretty much anywhere you go, don't carry a lot of cash. If you do carry can make sure you carry it in different places. And you'll also find that if you're looking, especially with families, because you tend to eat at a certain time. [00:40:02.750] - Rossana Wyatt You also have to remember that in certain villages you won't find or towns cities you won't always find everything open. So you kind of have to accommodate meal times to according to when they're going to be open. Restaurants and cafes will be open. I think that's it for one, but always wear sunscreen as always, because it's very hot. It is very hot there and try and dress cool because it can get quite humid and the heat you don't always depending on where you're from in certain areas, but you feel heat a lot more. [00:40:34.200] - Tamara Gruber What about when it comes to when to travel? Is there a rainy season? Is it often hit by Hurricanes or the times to avoid or better times to go? [00:40:42.850] - Rossana Wyatt Well, Hurricane seasons are always the early fall is usually more of a Hurricane season, but I think I've been in October and it was fine. But with anything, things change really quickly, so it's just a matter of just keeping an eye out when things are going to be happening. It gets very hot in the summer months down there. So spring is probably a good time to go and really fall. [00:41:17.560] - Kim Tate Perfect. So we will wrap up with our question that we ask all of our guests and that is what do you wear when you travel? Do you have any favorite go to that you like? [00:41:26.830] - Rossana Wyatt I don't have any favorite. It goes. I prefer wearing dresses because they tend to keep me cooler on scores when I can't when you're hiking or whatever. But I guess more than anything is just sandals and shoes that give me extra support, like Keens and Clarks. I tend to go to those more than anything else because then I can have a pair of shoes that doesn't look so horrible and I can wear them with a dress. And then I can also wear them hiking and they keep my feet cool and support it. [00:41:57.100] - Tamara Gruber Well, before we close out, if you can remind our guest where they can find you online and sell your travels once Canadians can start traveling again. [00:42:07.180] - Rossana Wyatt Well, I'm Rosanna Wyatt on all social platforms at Ross A-N-A-W-Y-A-T-T, pretty much most of those social platforms. And then you can also check out my rating and life is full of adventures com, but those are mainly the places that you can find me. [00:42:27.760] - Kim Tate Great. Thanks so much for for joining us and giving us this insight into the area beyond Cancun. We appreciate your time. I look forward to sharing more about this area. [00:42:38.180] - Rossana Wyatt Well, thank you very much for having me and for allowing me to share. As I said, the area around Yucatan is just amazing. We can certainly learn so much more about the Mayan culture and there is more to that Peninsula then just at the Cancun and the Riviera Maya and Playa Del Carmen. . [00:43:00.940] - Tamara Gruber Sounds good. [00:43:01.910] - Rossana Wyatt Thank you. Bye. [00:43:06.460] - Tamara Gruber Well, that wraps up another week on Vacation Mavens, and we think Room Steals for their support. Please go check out their Chrome browser extension and see what kind of money you can save on your upcoming travels. And I hope you enjoy the rest of your summer. Next time we'll talk to you. I guess we'll be in that whole back to school time. [00:43:24.470] - Kim Tate Yeah, thanks for joining you guys. Talk to you later. Bye.

united states new york canada google uk media talk mexico americans canadian spring toronto spanish romans north america plan greek adventures asian hotels mexican restaurants states buffalo legends caribbean greece hurricanes san antonio egyptian mexico city arc carrying booking vatican catholics chrome cvs pcr cancun mayan solstice playa niagara falls hacienda tulum aruba percy jackson peninsula expedia st peter valladolid mayans downloading padua yucatan progresso merida rick riordan quintana roo convent clarks riviera maya rossana playa del carmen yucatan peninsula chichen itza arrivecan cenotes pueblos m kabah cenote uxmal full episode transcript emed tamara gruber vacation mavens announcer welcome we3travel stuffed suitcase

195 Kim's Trip to Disneyland & Irvine, California

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 10, 2021 54:54

Wondering what it is like to visit Disneyland now that California is reopened? Want to hear about a fun place to stay near Disneyland that makes a great family vacation? Tune in this week while Kim shares her family's experience in Disneyland and Irvine, California. About Our Sponsor: Room Steals Today's episode is sponsored by Room Steals. Listeners may remember Room Steals from our discussion on finding hotel deals in Episode 185, but Room Steals is a Chrome browser extension that works alongside existing booking sites to show you what the wholesale price is for that room. Just install the browser extension and search for a hotel as you usually would on Hotels.com, Booking.com, Expedia, or Google. Once you've done your initial search, Room Steals will show you in a pop-up if that same room is available for less. If it is, you can click on that pop-up and book it directly through Room Steals. Downloading and using Room Steals is free; however, if you want to book a discounted room you have to pay an annual membership fee. Listeners can save 20% off the annual membership fee with promo code vacationmavens. If you travel multiple times in a year, the subscription will quickly pay for itself. One listener already saved $400 using Room Steals on her first booking! To learn more, visit roomsteals.com. That's roomsteals.com and use promo code vacationmavens to save 20% off your membership to Room Steals, and we thank them for their support. Tips for Visiting Disneyland (Summer 2021) Disneyland reopened this spring and is now allowing out-of-state visitors, and has been steadily increasing capacity. The parks are crowded and they have not yet restarted Max Pass so you have no choice but to wait in long lines. The rides have also been breaking down frequently this summer, making it harder to ride all the rides that you want to get to. At the time, they were no longer offering annual passes, although there was a special for California residents. A new annual pass plan has recently been announced. When you purchase tickets, you need to make a reservation for a specific day to visit and which park you want to visit. Park reservations can be booked 120 days in advance of your visit. If you are visiting in less than 120 days, make sure you look at the availability calendar before booking your trip. If you purchase a Park Hopper ticket, you can hop to the other park after 1 pm. Two rides require boarding group reservations on top of your ticket reservation. You can try to claim a boarding group beginning at 7 am, and they are usually gone within seconds. Another opportunity will begin at noon, but only if you have already used your first boarding group or if you didn't have success in the morning. Those two rides are Rise of the Resistance in California Adventure Park and the new Avenger's Web Slingers. You need a Park Hopper ticket to be able to get two boarding groups/virtual queues within the same day. To get prepared for how to snag a spot in the virtual queue for Web Slingers, check out this post on Trips with Tykes. Mobile ordering for food is getting better but still a little spotty. It is best to plan on eating off hours and bringing snacks to tide you over. Kim stayed at the Hotel Lulu, which is nearby Disneyland and newly renovated. There are pharmacies on the corner, which are great for stocking up on snacks and drinks. There is also a Starbucks nearby. Hotel Lulu, which was recently taken over by Red Lion, is a good budget option. They are often allowing guests to go through security and the turnstiles before the opening time so for a 8 am opening, it pays to arrive around 7 or 7:10. It pays to stay in the Grand Californian hotel for easy access to the parks but the hotel pricing is $800+ right now so finding a nearby alternative helps the budget. If you stay at one of the Harbor hotels you can still take a break in the middle of the day. Just keep in mind that the hotels around Disneyland are suffering from major staff shortages this summer. Also keep in mind that car rental shortages and pricing continues to be an issue as well, especially with the smaller, non-airport locations. Auto Slash is a good option for finding deals on rental cars. Tips for a Family Vacation to Irvine, California Irvine is where the John Wayne / Orange County airport is located, which is the closest Disneyland Kim stayed at the Marriott Irvine Spectrum hotel, which was a nice way to decompress after a few days in Disneyland. The hotel has a nice pool and a rooftop bar on the 16th floor that is popular with locals and guests. There is also a Club floor that provides access to a lounge with snacks and drinks. Boomers is a cool family fun park with go karts, putt putt golf, laser tag, an arcade, and all kinds of games. Irvine has one of the lowest hotel occupancy taxes in California. Tanaka Farms in Irvine is family-owned and is a non-profit that donates food to people in the area. You can do a U-pick tour on a wagon tour and you can pick the produce that are in season. Irvine is also known for its outdoor hiking paths. Irvine Spectrum Center is a large outdoor mall with a ton of restaurants and the Great Wheel ferris wheel. There is a lawn with a stage and they have live music. Irvine is also home to the Orange County Soccer Club, which is fun to watch and is near the Great Park Balloon. Diamond Jamboree is a great spot to find authentic Asian cuisine. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.060] - Kim Tate It's summertime at Disneyland, listen to find out what it's like right now. [00:00:15.900] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.690] - Kim Tate Today's episode is sponsored by Room Steals. Listeners may remember Room Steals from our discussion on finding hotel deals in Episode 185, but Room Steals is a Chrome browser extension that works alongside your existing booking sites. To show you what the wholesale price is for that room, just install the browser extension and search for a hotel, as you normally would on Hotels.com. Booking.com, Expedia or Google. Once you've done your initial search, Roo Steals will show you in a pop up if that same room is available for cheaper. [00:00:57.210] - Kim Tate If it is, you can click on that pop up and book directly through Room Steals instead. Downloading and using Room Steals is free. However, if you want to book a discounted room, you will have to pay an annual membership fee. Listeners can save 20 percent of the annual membership fee with promo code vacationmavens. If you travel multiple times a year, the subscription will quickly pay for itself. One listener has already saved four hundred dollars using Room Steals on her first booking to learn more visit RoomSteals.com, that's roomsteals.com and use promo code vacationmavens to save 20 percent off your membership to Room Steals, and we thank them for their support. [00:01:30.790] - Tamara Gruber So, Kim, last week we talked all about my trip to Greece and this week, we get to talk all about your return trip to California. You're really doing a lot of California these days, huh? [00:01:41.620] - Kim Tate Yeah, it's so funny because we had family and friends say, you're going to Disneyland again. And it's tough because I know that in some ways we'd like to do other vacations. But the girls had missed getting to Disneyland. And I feel like they really liked it and that's what they wanted to do. And it's a pretty easy trip in a lot of ways. So we headed back to Disneyland for family vacation. [00:02:05.650] - Tamara Gruber And it's a really nice, I'm sure, a change of scenery to go to from pine trees to palm trees, right? [00:02:11.680] - Kim Tate Yes, exactly. It's so different. It's kind of funny how the atmosphere is so different there. And we experience that, especially because we did Disneyland for a few days and then we spent three days in Irvine, California, which is actually a city. It's kind of the neighboring city to Disneyland. A lot of people will know if you fly in and out of Disneyland. The closest airport is called in a also known as John Wayne or Orange County Airport. [00:02:36.040] - Kim Tate And that airport is located in Irvine. So it's kind of a neighboring city. And we thought it would be a good time to kind of get that Disneyland trip for the girls, but then also be in a hotel and kind of have a more relaxed end to our vacation so that Paul could be happy and have, you know, time to sleep in and kick up his feet a little. [00:02:54.360] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, that's good. I mean, plus like you've been to Disneyland, but it's probably been a couple of years or more since the girls have been. Right. [00:03:02.110] - Kim Tate Right. Yeah. So in February 2020 we actually went to a conference in Disney World and then I was in Disneyland for a conference in March of 2020. Well it was end of February when I flew home March 1st before everything shut down. But yeah, the girls have not been to Disneyland in a little while and so that's what they were really excited about. And it was our home park that we kind of know the best. And I think for the girls, they feel really confident in how to manage it and touring it. [00:03:30.440] - Kim Tate And so that was kind of a for them. It's a trip that they they feel, I think, empowered and excited about. [00:03:37.970] - Tamara Gruber And it all worked out because they just reopened for out-of-state visitors in June. [00:03:42.640] - Kim Tate That was one of the big reasons. When they got that news, they're like, that's what I want to do. I want to go back to Disneyland. And I figure, you know this, too. With the girls getting older and especially with Lizzy going into her senior year, it's getting tougher and tougher. Once they get into high school and even late middle school, it gets tough to pull them out of school. And so you kind of need to do those summer trips. [00:04:04.070] - Kim Tate And that's where they wanted to go. I thought, well, you know, I guess that's what we'll do. And I was hearing these reports that everyone was saying, oh, it's the perfect time to be in Disneyland. You know, there's no crowds and it's really easy and it's really nice. And then they had the new Avengers campus that was going to open. So we thought it was going to be a great trip and we had a lot of fun. [00:04:21.850] - Kim Tate But it's definitely not the it's not the low, low crowds that people were expecting, I think, for summer in Disneyland. You if you if you've been to summer to Disneyland in the summer and you know what those ride wait times were like, then, yes, it's going to be a real delight for you. But if you go normally in off-seasons or other times and you kind of are used to being able to really own the park and kind of fly through lines, especially with the fact that there's no Fastpass or Max pass, which we are very confident using, you are faced with just plain waiting in lines and that's something my girls were not very excited about. [00:05:02.020] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I was going to say. And just the fact that it's been so long since people have been around a lot of people and had to do these kind of things were waiting in line. It must have like probably gets to maybe even a little bit more. [00:05:15.490] - Kim Tate Yeah, it is interesting, especially also because we some of the rides I felt like the rides were going down more often. Also it seemed like or they had limited capacity, not on, not for social distancing, but just you know, for example, Lizzy's favorite ride is the Guardians of the Galaxy, which used to be Tower of Terror. And on we were there for three days. And the first day she rode it twice, thinking she would write it the other days as well. [00:05:40.390] - Kim Tate And they had two of their elevators break down. So they were only using one one elevator of. So basically they had to have six loading zones and, you know, park opening would happen and you would see it go from like a zero 15 minute wait all sudden in one hundred and twenty five minute wait, 90 minute wait throughout the day. And so that was real disappointing. They finally got it fixed, but she wasn't able to go on it again the whole trip. [00:06:07.210] - Kim Tate So she was kind of bummed about that. So there are those little things where when you're used to doing that and then I don't know if it's just staffing or if the maintenance I mean, I don't know if Disneyland has been able to get all their workers back. But you can see that, you know, when something went awry that you love does go down, it can be tough. And then, you know, it's weird because Space Mountain is normally one of the top rides with long wait times. [00:06:30.510] - Kim Tate And, you know, you're used to seeing it with those kind of wait times, normally 70 to 90 minutes is what I see a lot of times, and it was regularly 40 to 60 minutes throughout the day. So that was a real win. But like the railroad was 30 to 40 minutes. It's just unacceptable to me. So it was really weird how the the numbers kind of flowed. So I don't know what to think. And they had opened up a Disneyland California resident ticket offer shortly before our trip. [00:06:59.340] - Kim Tate And I'm wondering how much of that special affected people, because, you know, they don't have annual passes anymore. And I think a lot of locals are craving their Disney fix, but buying tickets each time has gotten expensive. And I think this ticket coming out probably made a lot of locals who really understand the park flocked to the park. So I think it affected certain certain rides and things more maybe. [00:07:24.810] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I mean, that all makes sense. It seems like it's just in that transition kind of phase. Now, what you said that there's no max pass. So that obviously is a big change. What are some of the other things like do you need a reservation for that day in advance and that kind of thing? [00:07:40.290] - Kim Tate Yeah. So you still need reservations so you can buy your tickets and then you have to reserve the day you want to visit and it's automatically linked to your ticket when you reserve the day through your, you know, like Disneyland, my Disney account. And so that's one nice thing, is that it's all linked. So as long as you have a reservation for that day, you have no issue booking, not Max, but the boarding groups for two other rides, which I'll explain in a minute. [00:08:07.770] - Kim Tate And so there is that it's it's very fluid, like going through the turnstiles. It's all linked. You just show your ticket. It's it's good to go, but you do have to do a little bit of advance planning and definitely make sure before you plan a trip that there's the availability. So they are opening up the park reservations for you to book one hundred and twenty days out. So if you're, you know, planning a trip that's more than that, it's no problem. [00:08:33.090] - Kim Tate Just decide what they want to do it and then you book it as those days open up on the calendar. And then if you are within the 120 days, you definitely want to make sure you check the availability calendar and make sure however, it's the calendar is pretty open. It seems like the capacity has definitely been increased. I know our week that we were there, they had it looked like the Disneyland park, because that's the other thing that I'll explain in a minute, because you book a specific park. [00:08:58.290] - Kim Tate It looked like Disneyland had locked up and was closed and there weren't any more reservations. But then all of a sudden, I know they opened up more reservations. So it's kind of an interesting I don't know if people are releasing reservations and that's why it looks open or if they're strictly just adjusting capacity limits as they want, I'm not sure. So something to know about the reservation system is it is so Disneyland has the two parks, they have Disneyland Park and then they have Disney, California Adventure. [00:09:24.990] - Kim Tate And the reservation works for one of the parks. And that's the park you start in. Now, if you buy a park hopper ticket, you can hop to the other park after 1:00 p.m., but you have to start in that starting park. And if you don't buy a park hopper ticket, then you're only in that park for the day, if that makes sense. So that's kind of an extra little level that you have to think about. And then it gets even further planning because there's two major rides have to have boarding group passes, which is a huge ordeal in itself. [00:10:01.080] - Kim Tate And you try and get into a boarding group, which is basically the chance to ride. You still go stand in the line, although the line is very short, but you have to win one of those boarding groups and these things are gone in seconds, like not even minutes. These are gone in seconds. And your chances at seven a.m. and then at noon. And so whichever park you're starting in is the one you can get the seven a.m. for and then at noon you can get it for the other part. [00:10:27.360] - Kim Tate So in Disneyland, it's rise of the resistance. That's that Star Wars in California adventure, the other is the new Avengers Web slingers ride. So that's another level that we had all four of us logging in trying to get these boarding passes. And it was it was stressful, but we were successful every time. So but that's part of it because I knew I, I knew this was a thing. [00:10:54.420] - Kim Tate And I've been reading articles like our friend Leslie from Trips with Tikes has an article about it. And then I actually watched like a video on YouTube to show Paul and the girls, like, here's what you need to do. And it's sad, though, because I think people who are wanting to experience those, the fact that you have to know all of that and be, you know, like 6:58 we're there on our phones, like, OK, stop everything we're doing and get ready to get these tickets and then setting alarms for eleven fifty eight so we can get the noon one and it's it can be stressful. [00:11:25.470] - Kim Tate So it's kind of an interesting and and if you don't have hoppers you only have the one. You do have it at 7:00 a.m. and noon, so so if you're booked at Disneyland and you miss out at the seven a.m. one, you can try again for the noon one. Either park, you can try again, but you can't go on the same ride twice. So if we were in Disney, California adventure, we couldn't go to Web slingers if we got a boarding group at seven a.m. and then try and get another boarding group for Web slingers at noon. [00:11:52.100] - Kim Tate But we can. And then this is another level of it. Sorry, you guys. This is getting a lot of information, but you have to have already used your first boarding pass before you can get the noon one. So if you have a late boarding group that hasn't been able to ride yet and you haven't used your boarding pass yet, by noon, you won't get to try for the noon pass for the ride. Right. [00:12:14.240] - Tamara Gruber But if you had like a one o'clock boarding, I'm sure by one o'clock they're all gone for the rest. [00:12:18.740] - Kim Tate Oh, definitely. Yeah, in seconds. I mean, literally it's seven to one. There's nothing available like for people who sit there and they don't know the system and they think, oh, it's seven, I'm going to open my app and try and get a boarding group. Nope. They're already gone like you. There's some tricks. You have to have the like, we were rebooting our phone. Everything was closed. We had the app already open and then there's like refresh, refresh, refresh, and then you have to know exactly where to hit. [00:12:42.230] - Kim Tate Like you hit here and then you hit start hitting here and you just get lucky you're not. And it's crazy. [00:12:47.930] - Tamara Gruber I heard Leslie talking about that on her Disney deciphered podcast. It was yes. It was very intense. I know. And when Hannah and I were in Los Angeles, we had a free day and Glenn was like, oh, you should go to Disneyland so you can finally ride. You know, the the you know, Rise of the resistance. And I was like, no, it's like, first of all, like, I'm just not it would have been like the day after they opened to out-of-state people. [00:13:10.370] - Tamara Gruber And I was like, I just can't deal with that stress. Like, I, I want to go when I know that I can ride that ride because that's why I would go, you know. Yeah. [00:13:20.330] - Kim Tate We were talking about that as a family. We're just saying how, you know, hard and it's nice that we knew what to do and that we were able to do it. But then the other thing is it's kind of bad, like, OK, well, we got to ride the rides multiple times. What about like, we felt kind of bad. What if there's people out there like this little kid who really wanted to go on Spider-Man loves Spider-Man and we wish there was a way we could be like, here, just use our pass, you know, for this kid to be able to go, you know, because it's it feels bad because you. [00:13:47.960] - Kim Tate Yeah, and I saw people on Twitter, you know, they're like, oh, I didn't get it, you know, and I just want to ride this ride. I'd wait three hours for it because and I think that's what they're trying to do, is prevent, you know, when Disney World opened Avatar, Pandora flight of passage. Right. And people were like parking out in the parking lot at three a.m. so that they could get out of their car and go wait at the gates and be the first people to the rope line and then be the first people in that line because the line would grow to like three hundred and twenty minutes. [00:14:16.070] - Kim Tate It was just insane. Like, I don't even know how you spend your entire day there. It's just crazy. [00:14:20.360] - Tamara Gruber So I could just say, like, I'm sure there's nothing in the world that I want to do that much. [00:14:25.070] - Kim Tate I do. It's kind of crazy. I mean, you want to wait six hours for a ride. It's just insane. But yeah. So I think they're trying to avoid that because that's it's not a positive park experience. But unfortunately, right now and then the other issue you have is just these rides have a lot of working mechanisms and go down a lot. I mean, we got we were on ride of the resistance, and it went down and we got had to leave the line and then come back later. [00:14:51.740] - Kim Tate And thankfully, they do have a fastpass working for that now. They didn't originally, I think, but they have that working again. So they were able to program that for our ticket. So we were able to come back when it was open and go back through. So it's interesting. It's it's definitely another level. So I would say if you're planning a visit and you're not wanting or willing to be obsessive about getting those passes, definitely maybe take those two rides off your agenda and just pretend you never heard of those rides and be happy with all the other things that are. [00:15:24.440] - Kim Tate Yeah, right. [00:15:25.820] - Tamara Gruber So this helps to be like Disney ignorant in a way. That just going to be like happy with what you get, I don't know. [00:15:32.810] - Kim Tate Well, and there is certainly some great I mean the wait times can certainly be great. So in a lot of ways certain rides, if you're not trying to go for these certain rides, the wait times can be great, like Toy Story mania. We almost ride that only once because normally the family is not used to it and it normally has a long wait and nobody's willing to wait with me because it's one of my favorite rides. And this time, I mean, we went on it twice because the wait time was kind of low. [00:15:56.390] - Kim Tate And but then you looked at Mickey's fun wheel, which you would normally. It's not too crazy, but it was easily fifty to sixty minutes. It seemed like there in the middle of the day every time we were there. So it's just weird. It was a really weird. That's why I think there was a lot of California people maybe who just kind of wanted to go for, I don't know how to read the visitors because it was just an odd, odd feel. [00:16:19.580] - Kim Tate Yeah, the numbers didn't line up everywhere we wanted and dining was a little tough. Still, they've definitely they've got the mobile ordering down a little bit better, I think, at Disneyland. Where. You can place your mail order. We didn't really have an issue getting our order, we found we have one place that we love called bingo barbecue, and we had no real issue with finding an open time slot that fit with what we wanted. And it was almost always available right away. [00:16:45.020] - Kim Tate And then it's like a half an hour time slot. So then you go and you're like, I'm here. And then once you say I'm here to pick up your food, it's normally a it can be, you know, a minute to ten minutes before they have your food ready. But it was pretty quick. Well, that's good. A little, yes. [00:17:00.110] - Tamara Gruber But with that, it sounds like you guys had a good time, though. I mean, luckily, it all worked out for you with the with those particular rides, because I'm sure the girls, you know, really wanted to. Yes. [00:17:10.970] - Kim Tate Yeah. Web slingers, we all kind of thought it was ho hum. In all honesty, we did it again. And once you do it a second time, you kind of understand it a little better. And so maybe it becomes a little more fun. But I think for people who are waiting and then we also we waited 60 minutes. Well, it was we got in line at like ten, I think it was ten or two or something. [00:17:30.410] - Kim Tate And we left at eleven o four after the ride. And that was the ride had gone down while we were in line and it was probably down for 15 minutes. So I mean, even when you get there, it's you might still have a long wait to get on the rise of the resistance. We didn't have quite that at any other times. We rode that. So but just, you know, Web slingers is a you kind of put on these 3D goggles and you it's a bit like Toy Story in a way, but you use your hands to shoot webs and you're trying to attack these, you know, little bots on the screen. [00:18:02.570] - Kim Tate And so your webs are shooting them and you earn points. And so at the end of the ride, you have accumulated a certain amount of points. [00:18:09.260] - Tamara Gruber So instead of like shooting a little laser gun thing. [00:18:13.280] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. [00:18:14.630] - Tamara Gruber The next generation more interactive, I guess. [00:18:17.060] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah. But you're just moving like it's I thought it would be more like I don't know how to explain it like spinning or like, you know, universal Orlando. That's the Harry Potter, the forbidden journey. I know how you go in front of the screens and you watch stuff happen, but going between the screens you're like, oh it's roller coaster. [00:18:37.760] - Kim Tate OK, yeah, but I kind of wanted that kind of experience. And this you're just on a car like Toy Story mania and you just kind of get like moved over to this next screen and then you move to this next screen and it opens. And so there's no real there's it's it's literally like, yeah, Lightyear, not Buzz Lightyear, but like Toy Story with the screen. And instead of using a little gun thing that's in front of you, you're using your hands and then, yeah, you earn points and people want to do it because they want to get better at their points. [00:19:07.700] - Kim Tate And that's it. [00:19:09.380] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:19:10.070] - Kim Tate Rise, on the other hand, is amazing. We really liked it, although it it's funny because we were so excited for Paul to finally get to ride it because he was a he's a Star Wars guy like Star Wars. He's not a Star Wars freak, but he I don't mean to say freak if he runs into Star Wars fans. I know. No, I didn't mean like that. But he's he likes Star Wars, you know, like. [00:19:27.890] - Kim Tate Yes. Age. He grew up with it and like, I know Star Wars, but yeah. So we are really excited for him to do rise. And then we took him to Millennium Falcon. He's like, oh, that was way better than it was so funny because we live opposite. We were like a Millennium Falcon is not that great. And then he just loved it and he thought it was so fun and he liked it. He liked Millennium Falcon and rides better than Web slingers so. [00:19:49.580] - Tamara Gruber Well, it's just something about like when you're so invested in a franchise, like to have like the that more immersive kind of experience is so exciting. I mean, that's why I know, like, the first time we went to Universal and all the Harry Potter stuff, it was just like a dream come true, I think like to be like walking through Hogwarts and all this kind of stuff. So I think that type of response, you know, it doesn't surprise me too much because it's not just about the ride, it's about everything else. [00:20:16.790] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:20:17.000] - Kim Tate The characters and all that. Yeah. The big thing we dining just eating off hours is a big thing because seating seems to be a little limited again. And so just I recommend I always say like take a granola bar so that they can tide you over and just try and plan to eat off hours. We actually saw the first day the girls did the full day in the park and we got there. We did rope drop every morning, which they're back to rope drop. [00:20:42.410] - Kim Tate So I was kind of bummed because they had done with rope drop because they didn't want to have everybody congregating together. And so people were getting there early and they were opening the turnstiles early and people were able to go just on rides like an hour before the park officially opened. Wow. [00:20:56.570] - Tamara Gruber Because it used to be like even if you could get through the turnstiles, like the rides weren't operating, but you could least get in line. [00:21:02.210] - Kim Tate Yeah. And so that's what they're back to. So you can get through the turns, you can get through security, you can get through the turnstiles and then you go wait at this rope. Were these, you know, cast members are holding and a big group mob of people just line up there and it's kind of depending on where you're at, but the ropes are leading into the main main areas. So you kind of held back and you can get there early. [00:21:25.160] - Kim Tate So that's what we did. So we aimed. So we kind of aim to be on our way. Walking, we got we stayed at a new renovated hotel, it's newly branded through a best western is called Hotel Lulu and it's nearby. It's kind of in walking distance a little longer. But the cool thing about it is it is near a Walgreens and a CVS. So we stopped in there and we're able to get like Gatorade's and water for much cheaper. [00:21:49.440] - Kim Tate Kind of, you know, that was nice for stocking up on little snacks and drinks. And definitely, even though it's a pharmacy, you know, pricing it still way cheaper than in the park. And it was nice to have that. It was so convenient that it was next door and the walking distances, I would still call it walking distance. It was maybe a ten minute walk. And there was also a Starbucks next to it. They had mobile ordering most days, but they seem to close that down on our last day. [00:22:14.100] - Kim Tate We're not sure why. So I don't know if they're just over staffed with mobile ordering, but that's something to check. And it made it easier for us to get coffee in the morning on our way. And so we try and get coffees and then be on our way. And then we'd be slightly outside of the park and at the six fifty nine, when we'd try and get those boarding groups, we'd walk or, you know, pull over to the side of the sidewalk and get it and then go get in line. [00:22:34.080] - Kim Tate So we were showing up. It was an eight a.m. opening time. So we were getting to the security line up right around seven to seven tennish, you know, and it worked pretty well for us. We we got in there, so we went through the security line. Then we got through security fast and then we waited in the line for the turnstiles. They open the turnstiles a half an hour before the park opened. And then once you got through the turnstiles, you walked and waited again at the rope drop where you wait, you know, where you waited for the eight a.m. opening and then you quickly walked, don't run. [00:23:05.070] - Kim Tate Even though people ran down to the whatever ride you wanted to go for. So that was it. It was fun. It was it's a lot to manage. I think Disneyland is one of those things where if you just want to show up in the middle of the day and go on some rides, you should probably allow for more time, because there are people who I mean, we know the ins and outs. And if you're not willing to learn all those ins and outs of tricks, then you're going to just have to wait in lines, be OK with that. [00:23:31.080] - Tamara Gruber So I'm ready to go back after the fast passes are back and after the special like after hours events and all the kind of stuff. [00:23:42.570] - Tamara Gruber I was just going to say I just really I don't love rides except some of the special ones like Flight of Passage and I'm sure I will love the Star Wars ones. And so just being able to do it without the lines, you know, that would be the way I prefer to go. [00:23:58.260] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where our girls are at because they really liked the rides. And so it's funny because Paul he wants to just like oh I want to watch that show or I just want to sit on this bench and people watch and I and there was like, no, we're going to go get this right and we're going to get this right. And this was the trip, though. It's nice when you're a little older and the kids can be left alone. [00:24:17.280] - Kim Tate Like like I said, the first day, the girls stayed the full time the park. And then Paul and I left towards the afternoon evening. We took a little break in the room and then we went and got dinner again. This hotel where we stayed down the road, it's near, you know, like tourist restaurants. So it's like Cheesecake Factory and Bubba Gump Shrimp and I don't know what else there was, but opening. So we went out there and it was nice to have that little break. [00:24:42.270] - Kim Tate And then the next two days we left after we did the rope drop, the numbers were just going insane. And the girls, like I said, they're all about the ride. So when those rides, the wait times were more than they wanted to wait. We just left and went back and took a midday break in the hotel and then went back later in the day to do more stuff. And so I think those it's that's one of the benefits. [00:25:02.010] - Kim Tate Where does that is if you stay on property, it's great because you're in kind of the bubble of Disney. And if you stay at the Grand Californian, it's got the private access into Disney California Adventure Park. But those rooms are going for like eight hundred bucks a night right now. And you don't get the early entry with it, which normally one of the benefits of staying on site is that you get into the parks an hour early. So it's definitely a tradeoff. [00:25:26.580] - Kim Tate So if you stay off site on one of the harbor hotels, you can, you know, kind of take those midday breaks still and walk to and from the park. But you're faced with that extra, you know, a little bit extra going through more people and a few extra waits. But it is nice to have the midday breaks. [00:25:43.820] - Tamara Gruber I'm telling you, if I ever come to Disneyland, I'm going to go with you. Yeah. You and Leslie. Oh, yeah. I follow you guys because, I mean, I feel like, you know, I had gone to Disney World a long time ago and then recently I've gone a few times in recent years. And so now I feel like comfortable with Disney World, you know, but I've never been to Disneyland. So whole new thing. [00:26:03.870] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, well, I'm excited to take you and show you all the ins and outs, but I will say for anybody who's thinking of taking a trip, there's a couple of things I want to mention. First is hotels. So our hotel that we stayed at, Hotel Lulu, they, you know, mentioned that they're in a real staff shortage right now. And of course, there was no housekeeping. You can request your towels when you want them and if you need garbage taken out. [00:26:26.550] - Tamara Gruber So we definitely did that and they took care of it right away and. But it's something to keep in mind, and the Hotel Lulu, like I said, it's the best Western property recently got taken over by a Red Lion. And so it's definitely a budget friendly park property. So if people are looking to save money, that would be a good option, especially since, like I said, it's near the Walgreens and there's a CVS right across the street. [00:26:45.840] - Tamara Gruber They both have like Disney souvenir stuff at less price than what you're going to pay in the park. So if you want to surprise your kids with something, you could always go in there and grab it. They also have, you know, of course, sunscreens and anything. You might forget that it's just a little bit different than buying them in the park. So that's convenient from a budget standpoint. The rooms themselves, I, I think there they go for around, you know, depending on the season, around 150 a night. [00:27:10.440] - Tamara Gruber So comparing that to some of the other hotels that are a little closer, it's definitely a budget savings. And then again, even with going down the street, you have those you know, there was a California pizza kitchen, P.F. Chang's, and Cheesecake Factory. So you've got some major restaurants there. If you're trying to save a little money and take a midday break and get lunch there, get an early dinner before you go back in the parks or something, that might be an option, but definitely something with all of the hotels around Disneyland right now is that they are all dealing with a severe staff shortage. [00:27:42.240] - Tamara Gruber They went, you know, the hotels where I talked to the people at the hotel where we stayed and they went from having like 17 rooms booked to all of a sudden having over one hundred. And they just don't they haven't been able to hire the staff. They've increased their pay rate and they still can't get staff in. And so managers are going up to clean rooms. And it's just I mean, we've heard this everywhere. But in Disneyland, it's really obvious this summer is that hotels are hurting with staff. [00:28:08.460] - Tamara Gruber I know one of the hotels that's a popular kind of mom and pop called candy cane inn. They are not even open again yet because of staff. [00:28:16.720] - Tamara Gruber Wow. So, yeah, it's it continues to be a problem. I hope that by far maybe things will, you know, sort themselves out. I'm seeing even like restaurants around here like closing because they're not able to have the staff and service that they want. And it's yeah, I'm sure they'll be back, but it'll just take us some time. [00:28:35.730] - Kim Tate Yeah. And so I think you just have to be, you know, little things to just be aware of and be a little more. I mean, we've talked about this be patient, but just understanding that like maybe the cleanliness level in hotels and what you're expecting or what you're used to is not perhaps going to be what you are thinking you're going to get. So just be aware of that. And then the other thing would be the car rentals. We had our own little issue with car rentals, which everyone knows the car rental shortage issue. [00:29:01.860] - Kim Tate We rented a car from the airport to drive and go to Disneyland and do it. We visited USC and Cal Tech for Lizzy and we had no problem. The car was there. We rented it. I was like, phew, I think it is no issue. We are fine. We dropped it off after ours, dropped our keys and we dropped it off at this Alamo that was right near where we were staying at Disneyland. And we were supposed to pick up another car on Thursday, so we dropped it off on Sunday. [00:29:28.650] - Kim Tate We're supposed to pick up a different car on Thursday because we didn't need a car for those three days when we were at the parks because we were just going to go to the parks. And we got called Wednesday night like five minutes before they closed, telling us they wouldn't have a car for us. That was it. And then they never returned my phone call. So I reached out to them on Twitter, gotten a reply, and finally just used auto slash, which we've I think we've mentioned that before, and a rental car episode. [00:29:54.840] - Kim Tate But I've never used it before. But I used auto slash to just find a rate and they found me a great Hertz rate that was actually cheaper than what I walked through. Alamo maybe last minute, you know, they had some availability and I was able to go down there the next day and we got the car rental and had no issue. So thank goodness it all worked out. But just beware some of the smaller like I think this was part of it because it was a smaller location. [00:30:17.160] - Kim Tate They're not managing their inventory well. And so beware. [00:30:20.940] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, if there's problems at airports, I can certainly imagine that there's even more problems at these, like off, you know, airport kind of locations. Yes, it's it's sad. I mean, I definitely see as places are increasing, you know, we've talked about Hawaii before. I saw someone that just got back from Iceland posting that things were like five hundred to a thousand dollars a day. And then I saw someone in my Iceland planning group just saying, like, I can't find a rental, like, what am I going to do? [00:30:48.450] - Tamara Gruber And so I was just advising my aunt to try to book something like in advance, you know, as far as you can. But it's just hard because like you did that and then they canceled that. What do you do? You know exactly. [00:31:00.690] - Kim Tate And I know I have another blogging friend who had the exact same thing happen to her with the exact same Alamo's site there in Disneyland about a week or two before I did. I have that problem. [00:31:11.010] - Kim Tate So definitely something to be aware of. You can do the booking and know that you have your your reservation made. But whether they actually have a car for you when you show up for that reservation and they what I experienced, they did nothing to help us. So you just I think when you you have to be ready to backpedal and hope for the best and. So we were ready to just, you know, use Uber, find another one available, and thankfully it all worked out and we were able to get another kind of wonder if that's a case where, you know, maybe it helps if you, like, pay more like Hertz is always usually the most expensive. [00:31:45.940] - Tamara Gruber Right. But it's like if you pay more or if if you're part of a like a loyalty club versus. Yeah, you're going to save more if you use, like auto slash or Costco or something like that. But I wonder if booking direct helps at all, like if the first people they cancel are the third parties, like who knows. But it does. I have no idea. I even booked a premium car hoping that they like it would give us more as opposed to an economy. [00:32:09.500] - Kim Tate I booked the premium because it was only two dollars more. And so I thought that would help. But no. So it was nothing help. So I don't know now. [00:32:18.010] - Tamara Gruber I'm glad it worked out for you. Yeah. And then you guys had some time to chill out and. Yeah. [00:32:21.960] - Kim Tate So that was the other part of it. Yeah. So we you know, Paul's not a huge Disneyland person. Even I like Disneyland, but I'm not crazy crazy. And I can you know, I enjoy taking the breaks. And so we booked our final three nights in Irvine, which was nearby and near the John Wayne Airport that we were flying home from. And they we stayed at a brand new hotel called the Marriott Irvine Spectrum. And we loved it. [00:32:47.540] - Kim Tate We had such a good time is the perfect way to end our vacation, because we I worked with Irvine. They gave us a couple of ideas and helped us set up a couple of things. And then we got to our hotel, kind of had a lazy day that day and just had it. It was nice. We just had I don't know what the term and what I'm trying to think of, but we just didn't have a lot on our calendar, so it kind of worked out well. [00:33:09.030] - Kim Tate So the first day that we were checking in, we got in there and then we went to this kind of family park fun center called Boomers, and it was where they had a huge arcade with the arcade. But we did putt putt golf and then we did laser tag game, which surprisingly enough, we were all super competitive. I was completely out of breath after that. It was brutal. The girls beat both the parents. Paul actually was very sad to find out he was last, which is kind of sad. [00:33:36.890] - Kim Tate Doesn't surprise me at all that you would be competitive. [00:33:41.150] - Kim Tate Yeah. Evidently I rubbed it off on my kids too. So but yeah. So it was kind of fun and we we had a great time there and then playing it was a lot of fun and it was a great, you know, like, that's like a vacation. Right. I mean that was so nice. Like we did the Disneyland thing, but then we had this break in Irvine so close we didn't need to do that much traveling on the crazy interstate's of, you know, Sokal and. [00:34:05.420] - Kim Tate Yeah, so Boomers was fun. It was just kind of one of those family park fun centers. We didn't do any of the arcade. We just did the laser tag. And oh, they did have go karts, which Paul got. You talk about competitive. He got super competitive. I got taken out by like a twelve year old boy. It made me really mad because you're like you're not allowed to bump. [00:34:22.670] - Kim Tate But they evidently care about the rules. And so and he was just going and going and going and he'd figured out that I think he was with a friend and they figured out which cars are the fastest. So they just kept going and going. And they would always like he would specifically skip cars and go to a specific car where the rest of us just got in the car where that was next in line and it was brutal. So that was one one negative. [00:34:43.520] - Kim Tate Is the teenage boy or not? I guess tween boy, but we still had fun and it was nice. So that was, you know, kind of a relaxed day. And then, like, we just hung out at the pool and the hotel was really nice. They, you know, it was a new Marriott. It had trying to think of how many flaws there were. Now I think it was sixteen floors. And on the sixteenth floor, they have like a rooftop bar that's supposed to be really, really popular. [00:35:09.170] - Kim Tate They actually were able to get in on our last night and kind of go up there and look. And it's absolutely gorgeous. And I talked to the manager of the bar and he was saying that it's like seventy percent locals and visitors and only thirty percent for the hotel. So it's got its own, like, vibe and social standing. Not that's not even linked to the hotel, if that makes sense. [00:35:29.120] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's a place to go. [00:35:31.130] - Kim Tate So, yes, the hotel itself is a gorgeous Marriott property. Knew the rooms were nice and everything was good. It had a view our room had like a view of the freeway, but it had mountains in the background. So it was really kind of cool. And Irvine, I think, is unknown. I'm trying to think of I thought it was something I'm trying to think of what I know them for. But they had a whole bunch of office buildings, so they must have. [00:35:50.000] - Kim Tate I know they have really they're one of the lowest hotel occupancy taxes in California. So you know how you always get those, you know, 15 to 18 percent charges. There's just like ten percent. So if you're staying in a nice hotel for a while, that little bit of savings can be nice. So but they have a lot of businesses around there and we were staying right across from the Taco Bell headquarters. So we laughed. And I wonder if they have a drive through. [00:36:15.920] - Kim Tate So the hotel is nice. They had a club lounge which we were able to get into. And you know that with Glenn's, you know, status, it's always nice because lots of water. I mean, we went there for so much water, it was nice. And the girls would go there to get all the. Free chips and stuff, and then, of course, we had breakfast in the morning there, which was a nice little perk. [00:36:33.600] - Tamara Gruber Oh, that's surprising. Like the actual hotel perks, really, when we were seated that that nice Athens hotel, that's a Marriott and we were on the what did they call it like the the butler or concierge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we walk by like the little you know, usually the the lounge room and it was locked and I was like, oh well good thing we're only here one day and it included breakfast early. So it was actually a wonderful breakfast that included. [00:37:02.730] - Tamara Gruber That's nice. Yeah. But we were like oh can we get a little extra perk. [00:37:06.660] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah. This is nice because they had, you know, like the coffee machine there and then they had like three hot dishes so and a meat and potatoes and then they had like porridge and cinnamon rolls. But it was great. I mean it was really nice. And they have this little patio. I mean, the hotel itself, it's a really nice property is one of those. It's a it's like weird. It's kind of resource. We feel it's not huge, though, but it's a resource we feel in this, you know, city of California. [00:37:33.180] - Kim Tate So it was nice. But the pool lounge and then the restaurant and bar area is just beautiful. It's absolutely gorgeous. Like downstairs restaurant of our not even the rooftop bar is just really, really nice. And we we enjoyed dinner there and it was great. [00:37:47.760] - Tamara Gruber Nice properties. Sounds like you wanted to have that pool time and stuff. [00:37:53.190] - Kim Tate Exactly. And we actually were able to get so we went down two times to middle of the day, like to lounge and everything, get drinks at the pool and we were able to get loungers each time and there's not tons loungers. So I think we definitely noticed in the weekend because we we were there Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and we flew home Sunday. And we definitely noticed Saturday was much busier. Whereas when we were there Thursday and Friday, the pool was not as busy. [00:38:18.910] - Kim Tate So definitely kind of well. And a sports team came in for a competition. And so there was a lot of kids there in sports uniforms and stuff, which was kind of funny because it doesn't strike me as a I mean, it's definitely a business Marriott property. So it kind of struck me as funny that. But I don't know. There must I mean, there's a big sports complex that we went and saw a soccer game at. So it's possible that that's why they pick there, because it's close to that kind of one of the most popular hotels near that sports complex. [00:38:48.200] - Tamara Gruber Makes sense. Yeah. [00:38:49.680] - Kim Tate So one of the I'll just mention a couple of the other things we did was in Irvine, we went to a place called Tanaka Farms, which was really cool. It's like this family owned, you know, farm it actually they told us the story that I don't and I didn't I haven't checked this. But it's a Japanese family who they said that in when the war was going on and they were doing the internment camps in the U.S., that if you opened a farmer, were running a farm, you were able to not go to an internment camp. [00:39:19.800] - Kim Tate And so this family opened this farm. And that's sort of how it's how it stayed and it's family owned. And then it's also a nonprofit. They have volunteers who worked there and they donate part of their produce and everything to local people in need in the area. So it was pretty cool. And so we did this. It's called a you pick tour. So it's like a wagon tour and they give you these little, you know, cardboard basket things and you go around to different parts in the field. [00:39:47.940] - Kim Tate They're like, today we're going to be picking tomatoes and Sushmita peppers and melon. And so they drove us. I mean, OK, we're going to go here and you're going to pick from these plans on the tomatoes and you got your little cardboard basket and you could just fill it up with whatever you want to. And they drove you on the wagon to the next spot and they're like, OK, now we're picking Chido Peppers. And we picked those and then moved on. [00:40:06.450] - Kim Tate OK, here's our melon. So we've already picked some but pick which ones you want. So it's kind of cool is a really neat experience and then they hand you it or. Yeah, we kept it so we ate it on our trip. We actually brought the peppers home with us in our suitcase and they were fine because we TSA says fruit and vegetables are allowed. Paul actually carried on some of the melons, but they were getting super ripe. [00:40:25.350] - Kim Tate It was funny because we were on the plane and I was like, OK, those melons are starting to smell too, right? Like I can. I'm starting to smell them. So, like, they weren't soft. Yeah, but, you know, they just start putting off the strong scent. People are like smelling it. I'm like, don't put it at your feet. Definitely put it up. I was so embarrassed. I was like, no, I have such a sensitive nose. [00:40:44.390] - Tamara Gruber I would have been like, you have melon like like hand cream or whatever was that [00:40:50.220] - Kim Tate It was so embarrassing. I was like, oh my gosh. So anyways, but yeah. So we you got to keep the food and everything and it's just neat. And they had animals there. So we got to see some, you know, sheep and chickens and all that. But it was just a cool, you know, neat little thing to see this big farm and agriculture and then to get a pick food that you couldn't eat. [00:41:08.430] - Kim Tate So we thought that was a neat thing. And then we like I said, we did. We went to UC Irvine, which they told you that. But Lizzy's college shop in and UC Irvine was kind of on her list of interested campuses. And so we drove there and got out and she actually really liked it. It was kind of funny because she it seems like she's drawn to more of the city college campuses, but this one's more suburb, and she really liked it, she thought it was really nice. [00:41:34.710] - Kim Tate So who knows if she becomes an anteater that's still there, the anteaters. It's an interesting, interesting mascot. [00:41:41.430] - Tamara Gruber But I've been watching, like, never have I ever. Is that what it is? Yeah. Netflix, have you watched that. [00:41:48.030] - Kim Tate I haven't. But the girls I know, the girls were like, oh, there's a new season or there's new something. [00:41:51.680] - Tamara Gruber It's so cute. It's like, I don't know. It's a teen comedy. Yeah. Yeah, I, I know. I love it. I thought it was so cute. But their mascot is a cricket like so terrible. Exactly. [00:42:03.900] - Kim Tate I think anteater is slightly better than cricket. Yeah. How funny. So we did that and we, we drove by. So Irvine is known for their outdoor like they have so many bike paths, hiking trails and stuff. So it's really interesting. So if you're an outdoorsy person and looking to do something like that remains a great destination. So we they had a wild, wild wilderness access to this place called Bomber Canyon, and it's near the campus. [00:42:29.670] - Kim Tate So we drove over there and it was basically they give you this access to this deeper part of the woods, the deeper part of the park that normally isn't open. And we didn't pack for hiking. So we just kind of looked at it and got a feel for it. It's definitely of course, not Pacific Northwest hiking. It's definitely like Southern California, more arid hiking. So we but it was just it was neat. So it's kind of a thing. [00:42:52.200] - Kim Tate So if you're into outdoor stuff, Irvine is a destination for that. I don't remember all the facts, but I know they have a huge number of miles of bike and hiking trails. It's crazy. [00:43:02.470] - Tamara Gruber So definitely interesting because my perception as an east coaster, Irvine has just been. Yeah, like the John Wayne Airport. I used to work with a guy that lived in Irvine and he would talk about like some kind of giant shopping mall that's out there. Like, I have very different view of Irvine. I think of it as very like Orange County upscale. Like, I do not think about outdoor activities. [00:43:28.260] - Tamara Gruber So that's cool to know that it has that side, too. [00:43:30.870] - Kim Tate It's really cool. It actually is a neat little city. I think. I think people would be surprised if they gave it a chance. It feels very spread out. So it's not total. OASDI like Huntington Beach, Newport. It's not one of those tiny it's not one of those. It's more spread out open a little more open area. But there's got some really cute little houses, lots of businesses. And then, yeah, the shopping mall, which I'll talk about in a minute, is a big part of Irvine, which is a huge aspect, but it was actually a lot of fun. [00:43:57.960] - Kim Tate So but yeah. So that was kind of that aspect of it. But the big thing that you're talking about is the Irvine Spectrum Center, which is basically a large outdoor mall that has tons of restaurants. And then they have this thing called the Great Wheel, which is kind of a Ferris wheel. And so it's not really like it's not an enclosed wheel like some of the, you know, other cities have like. Yeah, like it a lot. [00:44:22.920] - Kim Tate And I and I not as big as that and not even like the Seattle one. That's kind of like gondola Sized seating. This is more like Ferris wheel chair lift or not chair lift. It's that's the weird thing. So it's almost like a ride where it's got kind of bench seating around. So our family of four, we sat like in a circle and there's a center thing that you hang on. But it was really cute and they had live music there when we went and we just sat on this. [00:44:47.670] - Kim Tate They have kind of Astroturf lawn in front of the stage that's right in front of the wheel. And I showed on my Instagram stories people might have seen it, but it was just so pretty and it was fun. And the girls, whenever they had a Hello Kitty cafe and then of course, they had Brandy Melville. And I don't know what other stores the girls went to, but they did a little shopping. I went early to a place called the Yard House, which we actually have in Seattle, but it's a big sports bar with lots of beers on tap. [00:45:11.610] - Kim Tate And so I said, oh, Paul's never been to Yard house and he would love that. So we went there and kind of watch TV while the girls finish shopping. And then we got some, you know, ordered dinner and they joined us and then we headed home. But it was fun. So it is a it is a big shopping mall, but it's it's got a neat vibe and a good feel. And it was busy on the weekend, that's for sure. [00:45:31.350] - Kim Tate Definitely the the Irvine teen hangout spot. [00:45:34.830] - Tamara Gruber Well, then teens should fit right in. [00:45:36.810] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. So I mean they, I mean they were happy, they loved it so and it's got a lot of name brand stores in Barnes and Noble. So Lizzie was excited about that. Yeah. It was good, good place. And one other cool little thing that we did was we went to a soccer match. So they have a it's called the Orange County Soccer Club. And so it's a, I think, level for soccer. So it's not MLS like level one. [00:46:01.260] - Kim Tate So it's level four. And so some young kids, but some people who just love playing the sport, some are paid, I think in some aren't. I think some are just walk on. But it was a really cool kind of outdoor venue. And it's in this area, I think it's called Great Park, but they have this famous, like balloon thing called the Great Park Balloon. It's this giant orange because destination Irvine, their logo's and orange. [00:46:25.110] - Kim Tate I never found out if they have a bunch of orange fields or Richard. Nearby or something, but it's this kind of I know that you've seen it from it's very similar to Walt Disney World, what they have that downtown Disney, the Disney Springs balloon that kind of goes up and people get in the basket. Yeah. So that's basically what it is. And it's supposedly free, but there can be long waits and of course, it's dependent on wind and all that. [00:46:47.390] - Kim Tate And so we didn't we didn't have time and go up it, but we saw it when we went to the soccer match and we were able to see that it, you know, looks like a fun little thing, gives you an overview of the whole area. But in that that complex was where it was staying so that we watched the soccer match and then there's that balloon. And then there's also like baseball fields and soccer fields and softball fields. So I think it's a big little sports center for probably local teams to play it cool. [00:47:13.760] - Tamara Gruber So does that wrap up your trip? [00:47:16.040] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think I want it. I'll mention one of the things we did, and that's just about food, because we didn't you know, we did eat at the hotel and then we ate at the Irvine Spectrum Center, like I mentioned. But one thing that's interesting about Irvine that I learned is that they have a over 40 percent demographic Asian demographic for their in their citizenship. And so international, like Asian cuisines, have been a big part of their make up of their dining industry. [00:47:41.210] - Kim Tate And they have this area called Diamond Jamboree, which is basically a strip mall, but it's filled full of, you know, like different Asian cuisine restaurants. And it was is they recommended that we go there. And so we went and it looked like a really popular place. And so it's funny because you think, oh, it's just a standard strip mall, but it's just neat. They have all these different places you can eat. And they'd given us a recommendation, like one of the places they had it was called Tim Huan, which is a Michelin star, like he's a Hong Kong based chef. [00:48:10.640] - Kim Tate And I guess there was something about like, oh, it's a best paper place at Michelin Star meal. You can get her the cheapest Michelin star meal you can get. So I don't know what he is, but it's supposed to be pretty cool. So we were thinking about going there, but we ended up going to another one. They said it was called Pepper Lunch, which is like a DIY tepid restaurant. But it's more like kind of we did teriyaki, but basically you're served your food on a really hot, hot cast iron dish. [00:48:37.220] - Kim Tate So you don't touch it. And they'll put like if you get a certain meat dish, they'll actually have the meat is raw and you kind of move it around and mix it with the rice to cook it because it's that boiling hot on that cast iron still. And it was it was a neat experience. And it was again, it was so fast. I mean, it's just order and it's there. So it's a popular lunch place for, I think, a lot of those businesses and working people in Irvine. [00:48:59.570] - Kim Tate But it was a really neat place. It's called the Diamond Jamboree. And if you you know, it's a great little stop and a very affordable too. So that was nice. Double bonus. That kind of wraps it up. [00:49:11.810] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, that sounds good. It's like I love being able to try different cuisines when you're traveling. I mean, here in Rhode Island, we don't have like I mean, I don't know, it's getting better, but there's not like as many different kind of ethnicities when it comes to cuisine. And so when I go other places, I'm like, oh yeah, I try that so well. [00:49:32.610] - Kim Tate And I think, yeah, I think the cool thing about this is that you get so I mean, being Americans like us, sometimes we get so pigeonholed like, oh it's Asian cuisine, OK, like that must be Chinese or Japanese or and it's neat to think no, there's all Cambodian. Ah. There's, you know, there's a lot of types like, you know, different, you know, Hong Kong and different cuisine styles. And so that was kind of an interesting concept to consider. [00:49:56.930] - Kim Tate And keep in mind, [00:49:57.830] - Tamara Gruber when we were in Berkeley the first night, we're exhausted. Hannah could barely stay awake. And I walked out to get something to eat. And, you know, it's like a lot of just like more casual pickup places right near the school. Yeah. So I found, you know, like a good Korean place. And that was I think it

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194 Tamaras Greek Islands Trip

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 27, 2021 68:18

Tamara is just back from a trip to Greece and she tells us all about this dream vacation. Find out what it is like to travel to Greece right now -- plus what to do and where to stay in Santorini and Naxos! ABOUT OUR SPONSOR – ATLAS OCEAN VOYAGES Today's podcast is brought to you by Atlas Ocean Voyages. If you have ever dreamed of cruising to Greece or Egypt, now is the time to book! Atlas Ocean Voyages just introduced its expedition ship World Navigator. This small ship, luxury vessel is built for adventure in a sustainable, energy-efficient manner. Perfect for adventurous families or multi-generational groups, its compact size and small guest count of fewer than 200 passengers, means a higher space to guest ratio and more intimacy and personalized service. From August through September 2021, World Navigator will sail 7 separate 12 night itineraries to Greece and Egypt. And its small size and agility means she can dock in smaller ports, avoiding large crowds and getting a more authentic experience. And this summer, arrivals in Greece do not coincide with any other cruise ships in port! Bookings are all inclusive, including both airfare and excursions. The ship's facilities and protocols reflect state of the art public health guidance. With stringent public health protocols followed by staff and crew with pre-boarding and pre-embarkation PCR testing provided for all passengers. Social distancing will be maintained with small group shore excursions. Atlas welcomes travelers to ‘come back to something brand new' To learn more, please visit www.AtlasOceanVoyages.com and we thank them for their support. 2021 Trip to Greece Tips Greece reopened to USA citizens this springs. Visitors need to either be fully vaccinated (all shots + 14 days) and have a vaccination card OR show a negative PCR test taken within 72 hours of boarding the plane. These are reviewed at check in for your flight. Visitors also need to fill out a Passenger Locator Form more than 24 hours before arrival. The Greece government will then send you a QR code after midnight on the day of your arrival that you need to show at Customs on your arrival. You need to show the receipt of submission or QR code when you check in to your flight. Masks are required in airports, planes, trains, ferries, ferry ports, busses, and taxis, as well as indoors. You also need to complete health forms before going on ferries or boats and either be vaccinated or take a test before going on a ferry. Vaccination cards will also be checked when you check into hotels. To return to the USA, you need to take a PCR test within 72 hours of your flight departure. There are public clinics available to get tested but appointments may be required and hours are limited. Tamara's tests on Naxos were 60 euro per person. You can also order Binax Now tests from Abbott Laboratories online. Just make sure they are the ones approved for travel and include online monitoring of the test as that is what is needed for re-entry into the USA. On Santorini, Tamara stayed at the Canaves Oia Epitome, which is a new property from the Canaves brand, and it is a luxury hotel located about 10 minutes walk from Oia and Ammoudi Bay. They booked the honeymoon suite with private plunge pool. Elements Restaurant at the Canaves Oia Epitome offers an amazing Degustation Menu and it was a top dining experience. Santorini is a very popular destination and Oia is the most famous town. When you visit, be sure to go into town early in the morning to avoid crowds. Tamara also had a chef's tasting dinner at Lycabettus in Oia but felt it wasn't worth the price. Santorini Wine Trails does half or full-day wine tours in Santorini. All tours are private right now. Ammoudi Fish Tavern is a fun restaurant right on the water in Ammoudi Bay with great views and fresh fish. Tamara also did a photo shoot with Nikola from Flytographer and got some great photos. Book ferry tickets in advance of your trip Note that you should arrive at the ferry port early to figure out where to queue up. Boarding the ferry can be chaotic so listen closely for when they call your boat and note that the same ferry makes multiple stops at different islands so it isn't like there is a separate boat for each island. It helps to arrange transportation for airport and ferry pick ups so you don't have to wait in a long line when you arrive. We used Welcome Pickups on Santorini and Athens. On Naxos, Tamara stayed at the Virtu Suites boutique hotel on the beach in Agios Prokopios. Naxos is a much more affordable than Santorini -- dinner for two costs only about 40 euro at many local tavernas. Tamara booked a full day private boat tour and snorkeling with Naxos Sailing. They also offer small group trips and have a variety of itineraries. The boat tour stopped in Paros and Tamara took a cab to Naoussa, the main town, which is really beautiful and filled with shops and restaurants. Tamara and Glenn also took a full day wine, cheese and island tour with Eleni from Philema Food Tours. In Naxos Town many people visit Apollo's Temple or the Portara for sunset but you need to get there early to get a prime photo spot. In Athens, Tamara stayed at the Hotel Grand Bretagne, which she was able to book using Marriott points. The rooftop restaurant, where breakfast is also served, has beautiful views of the Acropolis. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.060] - Kim Tate Today, we're taking a European journey to the Greek islands. [00:00:15.900] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.870] - Tamara Gruber Today's podcast is brought to you by Atlas Ocean Voyages. If you've ever dreamed of cruising to Greece or Egypt, now is the time to book. Atlas Ocean Voyages just introduced its new expedition ship, The World Navigator. This small ship luxury vessel is built for adventure in a sustainable but energy efficient manner. It's perfect for adventurous families or multigenerational groups. Its compact size and small guest count of fewer than 200 passengers means a higher space to guest ratio and more intimacy and personalized service. [00:01:00.750] - Tamara Gruber From August through September 2021, World Navigator will sail seven separate 12 night itineraries to Greece and Egypt, and its small size and agility means she can dock in smaller ports, avoiding large crowds and getting a more authentic experience. And this summer, arrivals in Greece do not coincide with any other cruise ships, and port bookings are all inclusive, including both airfare and excursions. [00:01:22.590] - Tamara Gruber The ship's facilities and protocols reflect state of the art public health guidance, with stringent public health protocols followed by staff and crew. With preboarding and pre embarkation PCR testing provided for all passengers, social distancing will be maintained with small groups shore excursions. Atlas welcomes travelers to come back to something brand new. To learn more, please visit AtlasOceanVoyages.com, and we thank them for their support. [00:01:48.330] - Tamara Gruber Kim, I have to say after just coming back from Greece, now is such a good time to go that if people could still book a cruise for later this summer or the, you know, the fall, it would really be a great time to go. [00:02:01.560] - Kim Tate I can see that I was following along on your stories. I think a lot of people are just unsure about all the you know, I guess in some ways you'd say loopholes and things you have to think about when you're traveling. And so it might be the perfect time for summer in Europe. [00:02:16.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's definitely not as crowded. And people are very eager to welcome you back. And, you know, luckily, especially with Greece, the emphasis that they've put on vaccinating people in hospitality and on the islands and plus the fact that everything is outside it makes you feel so much more comfortable. So definitely a good time to go. But otherwise, if you can't go this year and you've dreamed about a cruise either to Egypt or the Greek islands, then check out Atlas Ocean Voyages for small ship luxury cruising. [00:02:48.060] - Tamara Gruber Sounds like a great way to go because it includes all your excursions and everything else. At least you know exactly what it's going to cost you. [00:02:54.660] - Kim Tate Yeah. And as we've already said, the small ships are really the way to get a more intimate experience with the destination. So you're not being dropped off on huge piers. [00:03:03.390] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, exactly. When we took our ferry back, I saw maybe one or two cruise ships that a couple of the islands that we stopped out on the ferry back to Athens. But those were mostly like small ships as well. [00:03:14.070] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, cruising is coming back. We saw on our flight back to JFK, like one whole section in the back seemed to have those little celebrity bags. So it's nice. Yeah, well, that's exciting. And I think it's great if people want to look at kind of that new journey. And like you said, there's still a whole month of August left for the summer. So if you've got some free time to make an impromptu vacation plans, then the Atlas Ocean Voyages might have a good deal for you to jump on. [00:03:43.800] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, and if you want to explore Greece by land or at least to the islands, then I can give you some tips, because that's what we're going to be talking about this episode. [00:03:53.460] - Kim Tate I cannot wait to hear about your trip. It seems like you guys really enjoyed your time together. And, you know, for an anniversary trip, it seems like it it just checked all the boxes for you guys. So I'm looking forward to sharing with our listeners everything that you guys did and what you learned. And we should just get right into it. [00:04:11.580] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, definitely. It was one of those trips where I was prepping myself as we were driving down because we had to drive to New York and we flew from there just so that we could get a direct flight to Athens. [00:04:23.550] - Tamara Gruber So since our other flight was canceled, we wanted to not have to worry about transiting through another European country and worrying about what their entrance requirements were and such. And so we're driving down and I said to Glennn, like, look like something is going to happen, like not everything is going to go smoothly. [00:04:41.010] - Tamara Gruber You know, that's always the case, but especially right now, like, we need to prep ourselves like I've had in my mind, like this dream trip for two years now. Right. And that's like dangerous, you know, when you are putting so much like, you know, hope and everything into this trip that you've thought about for so long and especially, you know, as we're used to traveling. But, you know, after two years of not a lot of travel, it's like it gets even more focus, you know, for you. [00:05:04.510] - Tamara Gruber I'm like, something's going to go wrong. And it just ended up like, you know, OK, there are a couple, like, little bumps, but thankfully, like, nothing huge happened. And it was just it was just so nice. Still be in a different place, you know what I had said, like, I need a change of scenery. If we can't go to Greece, like we're going somewhere that has palm trees or something, like I needed a change of scenery and then it just it was beautiful, but it was everything is outdoors and we just. [00:05:33.430] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, you had to put on a mask when you were in, like, you know, a cab or something like that. But we just didn't worry. [00:05:38.770] - Tamara Gruber And it was really amazing. [00:05:40.450] - Tamara Gruber And I think it was like the combination of those couple of things of like feeling really normal and being in a new place and just having this amazing time. [00:05:50.260] - Tamara Gruber And and we you know, it was a splurge trip for us. So I booked, you know, some luxury hotels. And just like being that back in that experience. And you think about like what we talked about in our last episode about how like for the services and the hotels and stuff right now, you know, because of staffing, I like to be back in like what felt like a very normal travel experience was it was just amazing. It really is awesome. [00:06:13.570] - Tamara Gruber It really was so good. And I look yeah, I look at the pictures and I'm like, you can just tell, like, our smiles, like we're just happy. [00:06:21.670] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. That's what I got that sense from. Just everything that I was watching and following and seeing. It was just seemed like you guys had had a really great time. So why don't you start us, you know, for the people who are wondering, why don't you explain what you did before to be able to get to Greece, you know, so they just know what the requirements are maybe. And then walk us through your itinerary if you want or however you want to present it. [00:06:45.960] - Tamara Gruber Definitely. So, yeah, there's definitely a few things to know about going to Greece right now. I mean, they were one of the first European countries to open up. So what they require is you either need to be vaccinated, fully vaccinated, which includes the two weeks after your second dose or your one dose if your one dose person like I was. And you also need you know, if you don't have that, then you need to show a negative test PCR test within the last 72 hours. [00:07:14.110] - Tamara Gruber And you show that when you arrive at the airport, when you're checking in in the U.S. and the other thing that you need to do is complete a passenger locator form and you need to do that. You can probably would be emailed it from your airline carrier, but otherwise you can find it on like the Greek website. [00:07:32.710] - Tamara Gruber You need to fill that out before 24 hours before you leave. So, you know, at least a day before you leave, you fill that out and it has all your information, your passport information, all that kind of stuff. But also look where you're going to be staying. [00:07:44.950] - Tamara Gruber You know what places you're visiting, all of that. It's an online form. You you submit it and then you get a receipt that it's been submitted and that's what you show when you get to the airport to check in. [00:07:59.020] - Tamara Gruber Then when you arrive in Greece, it's kind of weird because they email you a QR code, but they only email it to you like after midnight the day of your arrival. So we were doing like an overnight flight. So it's like we couldn't show it at the airport when we arrived because we don't have it yet. But we showed it at the airport I'm sorry, when we arrived in New York. But when we arrived in Athens, luckily they have free Wi-Fi in the airport. [00:08:23.800] - Tamara Gruber Just connect and then you get the QR code and you show them as you're coming into the customs area for Athens. [00:08:30.550] - Tamara Gruber So that's really it. It's pretty simple, really. There are some other things to think about just in terms of, you know, traveling right now. Like if you're going on a ferry, you need to show your vaccination card or your test, but you also need to complete like a health form, you know, like one of those like you haven't had these symptoms, you know, that kind of stuff. And they give you a QR code for that. [00:08:56.200] - Tamara Gruber Of course, I can talk later about like the whole ferry boarding process. And it's such like a madhouse. They don't actually check that. [00:09:02.110] - Tamara Gruber But, you know, technically, you need to do those kind of things, too. So there are some things. [00:09:07.900] - Tamara Gruber And when we checked into each of our hotels, they checked our vaccination cards. [00:09:11.620] - Tamara Gruber So, you know, you keep that information handy. We had to do one for a boat that we went out on for the day. We had to show the vaccination card and fill out a health form for that as well. So I guess either a vaccination card or a negative test. Yeah, but then within three days, does it have to be within three days so we can keep repeatedly testing while you're there if you're not, you know, because we're vaccinated. That's something that you would look into if you have younger children that couldn't be vaccinated or something like that. Yeah. Something to ask. And then, of course, to come back to the US, everyone right now needs to have a negative PCR test. [00:09:48.940] - Tamara Gruber So when we arrived, I had already figured out what we were going to do to make sure that it was possible. Otherwise I would have bought those Abbot Binax Now test to bring with us. [00:10:04.990] - Tamara Gruber So they have two different Abbott ones. This is I guess good to know. Like there's one that you can buy just in like a CVS or something. That that does not qualify for overseas travel. [00:10:15.310] - Tamara Gruber Because it needs to be monitored, but they have another one that you can order online, I think it's one hundred and fifty dollars that includes like multiple tests. [00:10:24.220] - Tamara Gruber And what you do is you self administer it, but you do it like you get in an appointment with a doctor, like over Zoom. Right. And watch, you know, that you're doing it so that they can verify, you know that to you. [00:10:36.700] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, that's a separate one. You have to order online and that's actually an option. But luckily for us, we were able to get to our second island of Naxos. We our hotel helped us arrange an appointment at a clinic there. We just it could take up to 24 hours before we were getting our results. So we did on Friday for a Sunday morning departure. And we had our results by Friday evening. And it cost us only 60 euro per person. [00:11:03.400] - Tamara Gruber If they came to the hotel and did it for us, it was going to be like a hundred and twenty euro per person. So that's what we did. [00:11:08.950] - Tamara Gruber But just one thing to note about when you are traveling and you're looking to go to a local clinic for your way back, the hours are very limited. Still, like the one that we went to is closed on Saturdays. So, you know, you needed to plan that into your time window. But then some of them will be open, like for a few hours in the morning or a couple hours in the afternoon. But it's not like all day or, you know, you know, 24 hours. [00:11:31.600] - Tamara Gruber So you need to definitely plan ahead with that. But overall, like, it was pretty easy. I definitely think the the most challenging part is, you know, just the long flight, you know, frankly, like, I've never had a mask on for 16 hours before. And that is true. You know, that was a really long time because we had to deal with our long flight. You know, you have your time in the airport, the long flight on the way there. [00:11:54.490] - Tamara Gruber We then had like a three hour layover in the Athens airport and then another flight to Santorini, because our itinerary was to have three nights in Santorini, five nights on Naxos, and then one night in Athens for our return. So when we arrived, we wanted to not have to spend time in Athens, but get right to our destination just because we didn't have we just didn't have a lot of time. If I had two weeks, I would definitely spend more time like in Athens. [00:12:19.900] - Tamara Gruber So we had that flight, you know, and then the cab ride from the airport to our hotel. So, you know, that's that's a long time, you know, to be in your mask. I definitely switched up my mask like midway. Yeah. About getting this thing kind of stinks after a while, you know. Yeah. [00:12:36.490] - Kim Tate Are they not doing food either? So do you have to kind of make sure you're packing your own food and then are you able to eat it. [00:12:41.620] - Tamara Gruber They do do food, yeah. [00:12:42.770] - Tamara Gruber So we had our flight was Delta from JFK to Athens. We did have a bit of a scare that we weren't going to make our flight because we gave ourselves five hours to get to New York and it should take three hours. But it ended up taking like five and a half. And we parked in like an economy pre booked online. So then we had to take an air train over to the airport. And we were so nervous that, you know, we started off so relaxed, like we have plenty of time. Then we were so nervous that we weren't going to make it, but we got there. It was kind of chaos in the JFK Airport because it's just super busy. And, of course, you know, everyone, not everyone had all the information they were supposed to have right now. [00:13:25.360] - Tamara Gruber And then that takes a little bit of a longer time. But we got triggered as we were boarding. [00:13:29.920] - Tamara Gruber We got on luckily, they were serving food because we our plan was to go to a lounge and have a meal and, you know, take some, you know, some time. We didn't have that. So we were getting on to the plane with a bag of chips and some trail mix for like a ten hour flight. So, yeah, luckily they serve food and basically, you know, they make announcements, of course, when you board just the same way they would in the US. [00:13:53.560] - Tamara Gruber And while you're eating, you can lower your mask. And then it's kind of like after they do their meal service, they're going around being like mask up, like making sure everyone was still lingering, you know, that they're lifting the mask. But I will say, and I've said this before, like with us travel, that if I was not vaccinated, I would not be comfortable going because there are a lot of people that, you know, it's an overnight flight, it's dark. [00:14:20.080] - Tamara Gruber People are kind of lowering their masks as they're sleeping. And on those kind of overnight flights, the flight attendants aren't up and down the aisles as much checking. So I think, yeah, you definitely see some like if they saw someone, they would say something, but they weren't being super proactive with. Checking often is I say, you know. [00:14:40.840] - Tamara Gruber But that's not the case in the ferries and in the, you know, Athens airport, it seemed like, you know, much more strict. And on the ferry, someone went around regularly like, you know, talking to people and even having a little confrontations with people. So if that's something that's worried, I know I've gotten a lot of messages. I don't want to linger on this too much because there's a lot of really good stuff to talk about. [00:15:01.900] - Tamara Gruber But, you know, I've gotten a lot of messages from people, like asking how comfortable I was. And I want to say, like when I was in Greece, I felt extremely comfortable. I really, really did. [00:15:10.900] - Tamara Gruber You know, we had masks on in the cabs, but everything else. Is really outside, you know, like it's it's amazing how much everything is outside, I came back and I'm like, oh, right, restaurants have indoor dining, but we don't want to do that, you know? So it's it's very comfortable in that way. [00:15:28.320] - Kim Tate Great. So you made it to Santorini. That was your first stop. So what sort of things did you do there? [00:15:34.440] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So in Santorini, Santorini is a very crowded like over tourist island. It's really expensive, but it is very, very beautiful. [00:15:44.820] - Tamara Gruber And so I knew that we wanted to only spend a few nights there because they didn't have the budget to spend a long time. And I have to say that this year is such a great time to go because it still seemed a little crowded at times and it was picking up like throughout our stay seem to increase. But they were telling me, all the locals are telling me that it was only about 20 percent of the 2019 numbers. So it's definitely like an over tourist destination. [00:16:12.600] - Tamara Gruber And I had an opportunity to visit when there weren't that many people there, which made it like absolutely amazing. [00:16:18.460] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, we stayed like one of the main towns is called Oia. And it is it's an essential that everybody sees in the pictures. Exactly. [00:16:30.130] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Yeah. So I really wanted to stay there again. This was our milestone anniversary, a birthday trip. So it was a splurge, something that we'd saved up for for a while. [00:16:40.620] - Tamara Gruber So I had booked us three nights at a luxury hotel that called the Canaves Oia Epitome. So this brand, the Canaves, they have, I think three or four properties that are well known, luxury properties, most of them are right in the town. This one is brand new and it is just about a ten minute walk outside of town, kind of like down the hill. But we love the location and I loved the property. It was gorgeous. [00:17:07.740] - Tamara Gruber I had booked us a honeymoon suite with a plunge pool. So big splurge on the suite. We've never spent this much on a hotel. I will admit, you know, definitely like a huge privilege here. [00:17:17.580] - Tamara Gruber But we walked in and so it was like you kind of opened this one door. You go up some steps and there's like our patio with our plunge pool to loungers, picnic table, a little bench. And then you go into the room from there. [00:17:32.340] - Tamara Gruber And we walked in and we were just like, wow, like this. It's just so nice to go back to, like a luxury hotel and have this beautiful place and beautiful, you know, setting. And it was just it was so nice. Like, I'm so glad that we had that splurge. They do have other they have some other spaces for families. And there actually I saw a number of families, both with teens and with like toddlers are smaller, like elementary school age. [00:18:01.770] - Tamara Gruber So there are other types of rooms, some larger, some smaller. So that was my big splurge. At one point, Glennn was like, how much was this place? And I'm like, I'm not going to tell you. This was one where I was like, I want to book this, you know, and surprise you. And so we we really, really enjoyed that, like, kind of sitting out by the our little plunge pool. [00:18:22.500] - Tamara Gruber But then they also have, you know, the property has like a really nice infinity pool and it overlooks the water. And you get really beautiful sunset views there, which, you know, in this part of Greece, like some some of the views, some of the places will face a caldera. So you'll get really pretty hues and color, but you don't see the actual sunset. So this is the sunset and it's like ten minute walk up to town or they can shuttle you and like a ten minute walk down to Ammoudi bay, which is where are the sunset catamarans go out. [00:18:55.620] - Tamara Gruber And it's just like there's a lot of cool fish restaurants. So I thought the location was fabulous. [00:19:01.110] - Tamara Gruber The service was amazing, the food was great, the breakfast is included. And it's one of those things where you can order as much off the menu as you want. You know, like you order a la carte and then they're like, oh, do you want fruit? Do you want this? Like the one day that I had breakfast, I like pineapple juice. And so on their menu, they had grapefruit and orange juice. And I was like, oh, do you have pineapple juice? [00:19:22.440] - Tamara Gruber And they're like, we can do that for you. And they came out, they had like blended a fresh pineapple for me. [00:19:28.770] - Tamara Gruber And the the food was just it was fantastic. Like everything was so good. And our first night there, like we were exhausted. [00:19:35.280] - Tamara Gruber Right, because we had this five hour drive. Then we had, you know, a ten hour flight, three hour layover, half hour flight, you know, so we got there and I saw those lounge chairs by our plunge pool. And I'm like, I am taking a nap right there. And so we kind of just like napped in the sun for like an hour or two was somehow like it. Just something about the excitement of the first day of your trip where you just like kind of have the adrenaline to keep going, right? [00:20:01.320] - Tamara Gruber So that little nap was like all I needed. I usually plan for something like this for our first day to just have dinner close to the hotel where we're staying. So I had booked dinner at the hotel. The hotel has two restaurants, one is like fine dining, one is casual. I had booked us at the fine dining restaurant and so we ended up having like a degustation menu, like a chef's tasting menu, seven courses. And so you would think we would be like way to jet lag to like appreciate it. [00:20:31.580] - Tamara Gruber But I will tell you, this is one of the best dining experiences of our lives. And we still go back and we're like, is it because we were just so happy to be there? Or is it just like that first night? You have nothing to compare it to. [00:20:44.120] - Tamara Gruber But it was really just wonderful because the service was so it was just so perfect. [00:20:49.160] - Tamara Gruber It wasn't crowded because it was primarily just people at the hotel. So, you know, we were outside. We are overlooking this beautiful infinity pool and the sunset and, you know, our tables were all spaced and our server was just so sweet. Like every time I was, like, really enjoying a dish. And I would compliment her and compliment the dish. She would get almost like a giggly, you know, like she was so pleased with how much we liked it. [00:21:17.480] - Tamara Gruber And it just like that shows like how much like it means to them to, like, present and prepare like something that someone's really enjoying, you know, like that kind of hospitality where it's not just like a you know, like a process, like a routine. You know, it was just like a lot of it added a lot of enjoyment. And the the food was just it was fantastic. It was so, so good. So, you know, another huge splurge for us. [00:21:41.090] - Tamara Gruber But like, if you stay there and I actually had like three people, I think like or more messaged me on Instagram saying that they had either already booked it or they were booking it for the fall, like that particular hotel and asking about the restaurant. So I definitely think it's the it's a luxury hotel. And the price point is just slightly below the places that are in town. So it made it you know, it made it fit with my budget. [00:22:07.400] - Tamara Gruber You know, it was already a splurge budget, but. Yeah. So anyway, that's what we did the first day. And then the next day, again, I didn't want to like over because I really wanted to make sure that this trip was like some exploration, but a lot of time for like relaxation and doubt and just time to enjoy it and soak it in. You know, I didn't want us to be like, go, go, go. [00:22:26.300] - Tamara Gruber And we also didn't want to be around a lot of other groups or people. So we did things, you know, like more on our own or privately. [00:22:33.560] - Tamara Gruber So the next day we decided to walk into town and I thought we're just going to maybe, like, wander around for a little bit. But it was so charming. And so we were just like going down all these side streets and I'm taking like a million pictures and we just loved it. [00:22:47.810] - Tamara Gruber And it was so quiet at first. Like in the beginning, the streets were like empty when we got there, probably like ten thirty. [00:22:54.500] - Tamara Gruber And the streets were so empty. And everyone says, like, go super early in the morning, but I'm like my first day. I'm not getting out there like 6:00 a.m. you know, that's not my idea of a vacation. And then it got like a little busier, like closer to noon. But I think if you're going on a regular year, you probably really have to get there early to avoid the crowds. That's why it's kind of nice to stay right in that area, because if you're traveling from another part of the island, of course, you're not going to get there, you know, quite that early. [00:23:19.820] - Tamara Gruber Right. But it got really hot, definitely. People ask me about the weather, too. It was probably in the high eighties, like maybe low 90s the entire time we were there. I mean, I loved it. [00:23:30.470] - Tamara Gruber Like it was it was the kind of weather where I could go out every night in a sundress and not have to bring a sweater, you know, just like, wonderful. And it was, you know, the sun was strong. [00:23:40.940] - Tamara Gruber So you would like a little break from it or take a swim. But it wasn't I didn't find it oppressive. Apparently earlier in that week, there was you kind of what's been typical Europe right now is the end of June, early July for the last few years has had like an extremely high heat wave. So they had temperatures well above one hundred for a few days. But then, like I said, when we were there, it was kind of more normal summer. [00:24:03.300] - Tamara Gruber But still, we needed a place. We needed a little break. And their lunches are a little bit later. They're still like at one point we stopped and we just Glennn had, I think, like a beer and I had a smoothie and we just sat at a place where we're having this beautiful view. And then we walked around some more and then we had this amazing lunch. I like this salad with grilled shrimp and like, everything was like so wonderful. [00:24:24.050] - Tamara Gruber And all I could think was like years ago when I was a picky eater, I was like, oh, I could never do I could never go to Greece because I don't like and I like this like at the time I didn't like feta, now I love feta. [00:24:34.970] - Tamara Gruber I still don't like olives. And I didn't eat as much fish. But it is like the food was amazing. All the food that I had was really, really good and I did not have a problem with that at all because I for a long time ago I was like, I'm gonna have to do it on a cruise so that I like the food, but I've expanded my palate. So we had a wonderful lunch. Like there's just so many places that have beautiful views or cute courtyards. [00:24:58.520] - Tamara Gruber And it's just we had a lovely time and it reminded me a lot of the Amalfi Coast in Italy and in Capri, except the shops there aren't like the big designer shops. It's more like, you know, there's there's a lot of touristy kind. You know, now knickknacks and T-shirt kind of things, but then there's some more local shops, and so I liked that. You know, sometimes when you go to places and you see all these, like really upscale designer shops and like, well, first of all, I can't afford to shop there wherever I see them. [00:25:30.650] - Tamara Gruber And like, if you can get that at a city, like, near you, like, why do you need it like on vacation? You know, I'd rather find, like, more of the local kind of authentic things. Like we stopped into a gallery and I totally was ready to buy art until I realized we missed a zero on the on the painting price. But yeah, we just had a really lovely time. We went back and we sat by the pool and then we went back into town that night and we did another tasting menu at this place called Lycabettus, I'm sure mispronouncing it. [00:25:59.150] - Tamara Gruber But it's named that after a place in Athens that also has a beautiful viewpoint. But it basically is a restaurant like on a cliff side. So you pay more to sit on this like promontory that sticks out into the caldera. And you have this great view. Of course, Glennn was like, so where it is like, am I going to be nervous? And we had to go down all these steps to get to it. [00:26:24.500] - Tamara Gruber He was like slowly going down the steps and the the hostess kept turning and looking back. And I'm like, we're OK, you know? But I will say, like, that place was crazy expensive, which we knew it was going to be, because it's definitely very like this is one of the most beautiful places to have a meal or whatever. But I didn't think it was worth it. So I wouldn't say to do it like the food was good, but it was much more like it came out very quickly and it was like everybody near us was getting the same thing at the same time. [00:26:54.950] - Tamara Gruber And it just didn't have that personal feel to it. And for like a gas station menu was a lot of like phone this and, you know, like very I don't know, kind of it was inventive, but it also felt very like it's probably been done a lot, you know. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, but it was still we had a beautiful view. We wandered around town afterwards and it's just so nice. [00:27:13.550] - Tamara Gruber We sit as we're sitting there because we probably had like an eight thirty reservation, like, you know, the sunsets. And then so things start to have that beautiful glow and then the lights start to come on. And then by the time you leave, it's like all lit up and it's just, you know, like really, really gorgeous. I really fell in love with, like, that part of Santorini. But, you know, someone asked me, like, how long should you stay in Santorini? [00:27:35.750] - Tamara Gruber And I said, well, I think at least three nights, you know, maybe two nights if you've already, you know, been in Greece. But really, it depends on your budget. Like, how long can you afford to stay there because the food's expensive, like everything is definitely pricey. [00:27:49.700] - Tamara Gruber So our last day on Sunday, we ended up we had booked a half day wine tour with Santorini wine trails, and we did that. All the tours that they're doing right now are private. So, you know, we basically visited a vineyard and then Santorini is probably most well known for their wine, their white wine. And so we went to, I think, three wineries and did different tastings and tasting. We had like some local cheese or one thing I totally fell in love with was the tomato paste, because like Santorini is known for tomatoes, too. [00:28:25.520] - Tamara Gruber And you think about tomato paste like that, you would buy at the store, come to where the little can and you just like your lasagna or something like that. Like this was it was like you just want to spread it on bread. It was amazing. You know, I definitely had a great time on that tour. We learned a lot. You know, it's just the kind of thing that we like to do. Again, this trip was very oriented towards couples, you know, as I apologize, or people like looking for family, you know, kids, things to do because we were very focused on things that we love to do. [00:28:56.390] - Kim Tate Well, that still sounds awesome. Sounds like a gorgeous splurge. And I'm sure there's plenty of people listening that don't have kids are looking for an anniversary trip or, you know, some kind of luxury luxury time. So I think it's good. [00:29:08.840] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:29:09.800] - Tamara Gruber And then our last night, we walked down to Ammoudi bay and we watched other sunset catamarans go out and man, those things were packed. Those were crowded. [00:29:17.900] - Tamara Gruber And then we had dinner down there at a Ammoudi Fish Tavern, which was it was just a great you know, it's very touristy feeling, but it's just it was like such fresh fish. The guy was like, no, no, come over to that, because I was asking, like, what is this type of fish like? And he's like, come look. And I'm like looking at it is not going to help me know how it tastes like, you know, he kept trying to like, you know, like, look at this one and we'll cut it this way. [00:29:44.810] - Tamara Gruber He'll do this. But, you know, it's very fresh. [00:29:47.390] - Tamara Gruber So, you know, that was that was a lot of fun. And I didn't mention. But if you follow on Instagram, you've probably seen. [00:29:52.730] - Tamara Gruber But we did a Flytographer photography shoot that morning before we did the wine tour. So that was a lot of fun to [00:30:00.770] - Kim Tate those turned out so well. And I'm happy with the dress you chose. It looked perfect. [00:30:05.240] - Tamara Gruber Thank you. And thank you. Yes. For your advice. I was going back and forth, but I'm like, you know, I just feel comfortable in this one. And I think, like, you know, Glennn is a pink shirt. It'll kind of go together and yeah, we worked with Nikola and he did a fantastic job. And he did so many different, like locations. We're like really fast, which is good because, like, I didn't think about poor Glenn because it was a lot of like edges. Edges. [00:30:33.540] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, exactly. I did at one point he was just like, I need a break. I, I'm sitting this one out, take some pictures of her on her own. But, you know, we had fun. It was it was really nice. So it's just something that it's just such a good memory. Like I know I will look back at those photos and like always smile, you know, I was they'll bring back such happiness. [00:30:56.520] - Tamara Gruber It's nice to have photos of the two of us because frankly, I don't know. We have some from our wedding, like, yeah, I have a lot of that. [00:31:03.210] - Kim Tate So he did a great job also of posing you guys. I mean, they were definitely nice anniversary shots. And I think that was part of it is some of the looks and the poses were great. So it wasn't just being in a beautiful area. I mean, they really were engaging of the two of you and good, good representative representation of your relationship. [00:31:22.210] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, no, I agree. [00:31:23.970] - Tamara Gruber It was it was really it was very nice. And so I'm happy to do that and tip for anyone that wants to do something like that for a future trip. What I do for photographer is every Black Friday they have a sale and I buy a gift certificate like gift card for that sale and then I'll just use it whenever I book for a trip. So little money saving tip there. [00:31:47.270] - Kim Tate If it's that smart, is it? So it's like a gift card or whatever. And then you can. Yeah. [00:31:51.840] - Tamara Gruber And then I get a code or whatever you apply. [00:31:53.670] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:55.320] - Tamara Gruber So and that one I had a credit from, we had booked for Paris and twenty twenty that we didn't do and so I wanted to use it. I didn't know how long they were going to keep that credit valid and I didn't know when our next family trip would be. So my kids do this so. [00:32:09.600] - Tamara Gruber Yeah but so that kind of wraps up Santorini. And then the next day we were taking a ferry over to Naxos, which is one of the largest of the Cyclades Islands. And it's you know, but it's quieter and it is a lot less expensive. I know that our friend Eric from Travel Babo has gone there a lot with his family. And, you know, so I decided to do that as our second island. [00:32:32.860] - Tamara Gruber It would have been nice if we had a little more time to maybe squeeze in one other island. But, you know, that one was good. We did five nights. I think a lot of people will do like Santorini. Well, maybe they'll do Mykonos, but Mykonos is very much like a young party island. I'm like, yeah, I'm too old for that. And it's super expensive. Or they'll do Crete, but Crete is huge. And so you could do like your whole vacation. [00:32:54.150] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Just on Crete. Yeah. So yeah, this felt like a good mix for us to have like one more of the famous ones and one of the slightly less visited ones. So we took the ferry and I'll just like a few words about taking the ferries in Greece just because it was new to me. And now I know. And if I had known what to expect, I may not have been so stressed out. [00:33:12.420] - Tamara Gruber But we got to the very port early. But it's just open. There's no like docks that have names of where to go. So we went into like the siege at office, which was the ferry that I had booked. [00:33:24.000] - Tamara Gruber We had filled out our forms and also done our mobile boarding passes. We had all that like on our phones, but we weren't quite sure where to go when we got there. So I went to the office. They're like, oh, just go to like this building like Terminal four. So, OK, so we go in there and we're sitting there and I hear different people talking around me and they're like, oh, we're going to make a noise, we're going to Athens. [00:33:43.740] - Tamara Gruber So I'm like, OK, so there's multiple boats. So we have to like, really listen for like when our boat is coming right. And the time is getting closer and closer and closer and the place is really filling up and everyone's talking and it's just like loud and you can't hear a thing. And then I hear some guy like all the way at the end of the hall, like coming in and shouting like anyone going to want, you know, and you're like, what was that? [00:34:06.870] - Tamara Gruber So there's like nothing on the loudspeaker to like. No. You know, which boat are they announcing? Should I go out? Do I not go out like what's going on? And then finally I hear them say, like Paros and I hear them say things. [00:34:20.280] - Tamara Gruber And so I'm like, oh, OK, that's not us. That's not us. And then finally, it seems like everyone is just walking and going. So I'm like, we should just go. Like, I was going, yeah. So as we get out there, the boat is coming in and I realize it's a huge boat. This boat is going to all those islands. It's not like there's one boat to meagerness, one boat to Paris, one boat to Athens. [00:34:43.320] - Tamara Gruber So I'm like, oh, OK, I get it now. But so you're in this giant, like heard and then they are running a few minutes late, which they often are. And so like the boat is not even like docked yet and you know, the gangplank is down, people are ready to walk off and they're like hurting us. They're like, go, go, go, go, go down. You, you know? And I'm like, you know, I have my you know, we have our luggage. [00:35:07.230] - Tamara Gruber Of course, I have my phone out to show, like the boarding pass. And I think I'm have to show like my health form and my boarding pass and like all this stuff. And the people are streaming off the boat and and, you know, we're like streaming on at the same time and the people are in the back almost with, like, cattle prods, like, go, go, go. And I hear the captain go in like, we got to go. [00:35:26.710] - Tamara Gruber We got to leave. We got to leave my. Oh, my God. Like, what are they going to do, like leave people, you know, we're barely on the boat. And the thing is coming up and they're pulling away and we're it's just like you're in the hold of the boat with, like, the cars. And there's like these racks where you can put your luggage and some of them are labeled with certain islands. But, you know, people are just throwing their luggage up on racks and like you're running out of space. [00:35:51.910] - Tamara Gruber So Glenn's like putting it up on the top thing. And then there's this huge, like line to get up the stairs, you know, but it's like very bouncy at this point. So you're, like trying to keep your balance, but there's like a catch point because that's where you then have to show, like, your boarding pass. They never checked the health forms, you know, and then we get up there and then finally they're like, OK, these are your seats. [00:36:11.650] - Tamara Gruber And we sit down. [00:36:12.160] - Tamara Gruber We're like, oh, OK. [00:36:14.200] - Kim Tate Like, that was very stressful. How long ago, right? Was it? [00:36:17.560] - Tamara Gruber It was. I think I was like about an hour and a half to go from Santorini to Naxos. [00:36:22.900] - Kim Tate What do they do with the people who don't have their boarding? [00:36:25.120] - Tamara Gruber I know. Exactly. And they start from like they stopped at another island like Ios, I think first, you know, and so I don't know. I don't know. Do they like I have no idea what you put your kind of don't want to put your bag in first either because like how do you get your bag out then these racks of everybody and throwing their bags on top. And I believe that they wait there for a while. They'll let you get your bag. [00:36:50.590] - Tamara Gruber so then we're sitting there and you hear and it's, you know, how things are. At least they had a loudspeaker on the on the ferry. And the ferry is very much like, do you actually hear it, though? It's probably like what you're used to with your ferries where, you know, you have assigned seating. It's more like airplane seating, like, you know, like you have seats. [00:37:07.330] - Kim Tate We don't run out here in Seattle. It's open seating. [00:37:10.790] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah. So we had assigned seating and I was like, there's a concession bar. So it's more like, you know, it's, it's a big, you know, it's a big boat. [00:37:17.410] - Tamara Gruber There's multiple tiers. [00:37:18.790] - Tamara Gruber So there is a loudspeaker, there's like TVs playing but they're in Greek. I don't know what's going on in them. And they're making the announcement first in Greek, but then in English. But I tell them, you you cannot understand it. It's just Charlie Brown. Yeah. And so we're just like, what? [00:37:33.010] - Tamara Gruber You know, what was that? [00:37:34.000] - Tamara Gruber What was that? And like, luckily we had seen as the boat was coming in, there was like one of those leg things where it was like Ios, Naxos, Paros, and it gave like the order. It seems like we're going to be the second one. Just remember where the second one, you know, but they're like, oh my, please report to whatever. [00:37:50.770] - Tamara Gruber So basically, like before you get to your island, they're calling you to go down to the hold and that's where you grab your luggage. Yeah. So then we grab our bag. [00:37:59.920] - Tamara Gruber But even then, like, it got stuck on, like there was like a net up there and like the wheel was stuck and we're like, oh, I got to get it out, you know. And then we're, you know, standing there and again, like it's like the thing is barely coming down. Stop, drop and roll. [00:38:12.280] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, like, go, go, go, go. [00:38:15.040] - Tamara Gruber And then the cars are coming off and they're like, get out of the way. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, what am I supposed to do? This is crazy. But one thing I will say is when you arrive at an island by ferry or by plane, it's really helpful if you have your transportation already arranged because there are not a ton of taxis on these islands. So we saw people like waiting a really long time for a taxi. [00:38:37.510] - Tamara Gruber So I had used I read about it online somewhere, but it's called Welcome Pickup's. It's like a little bit like an Uber, but you arrange it ahead of time and it worked seamlessly. They weren't on Naxos, but it worked in Athens and it worked in Santorini, you know, where we walked out of the plane in Santorini. And there's a guy holding a sign, you know, Gruber, and we get right in and go. And that's how it was when we arrived in Naxos. [00:39:00.730] - Tamara Gruber Although I didn't use that service, it was like through the hotel. But it was just so nice to be like, oh, here's a guy. You know, we do that we like just super long line to try to find a taxi. And, you know, so that was really great. I would definitely recommend using the welcome pick ups because the hotel in Santorini was going to arrange something. I think they were going to charge us maybe like seventy five euro. [00:39:21.580] - Tamara Gruber And then I booked through this and it was like less than 50 euro. So I'm sure it's even cheaper if you got a taxi. Sometimes it's like you're already spending that much money. It's like, do you really need to save twenty five bucks or whatever? [00:39:38.170] - Tamara Gruber Then that's how a lot of like when we were in Naxos, we the main town is called Naxos Town or Chora, I guess like what I've learned is that on the islands there's one town and all the others are villages, you know, so you have to like get to a certain size. And then all the main town is called like or something like that. And but it's also just called Naxos. [00:39:56.620] - Tamara Gruber So so we were about fifteen minutes south of there, like on a beach called Agios Prokopios. I always like switch the key in the P and so you could take a bus like back and forth. But we were like, yeah, I'll just take a taxi. But, you know, like, it's it is a little bit more so I can see why people would like to stay in town, but I really loved our location. So we stayed at a place called the Virtu Suites. [00:40:30.980] - Tamara Gruber Maybe they have a dozen rooms or so. They have different ones. We didn't we didn't go with the top of the line there. I just looked like a Seaview suite. So it was just like basically you walked out of our room and the pool was right there. But I love this hotel again. It was really new. Like they opened, I think late 2019. [00:40:51.880] - Tamara Gruber So then they were closed most of last year. [00:40:55.090] - Tamara Gruber And so there, you know, they are back and they were like, please leave us a review. Or if you like, we need, you know, we need to get the word out and like don't you worry. Yeah. I'm going to like let them know. So we, I loved it. Like everything was all these natural materials. It was like rope and wood. And, you know, it's just like a very, very nice style, very comfortable style. [00:41:16.990] - Tamara Gruber The service was wonderful. It wasn't I don't even know if all the rooms were filled. Definitely not when we got there, because we got there on a Monday, I felt like at first. We might have been like one of the only ones in the place. The room was pretty large, you know, it was just it was just so nice like you. [00:41:32.230] - Tamara Gruber We walked out of our room, you know, two steps. [00:41:34.930] - Tamara Gruber There is the pool, you know, ten steps. We're at the restaurant, which is like open area, restaurant, bar facing the street. And then you go across the street and there's the beach and the beach is gorgeous. [00:41:46.840] - Tamara Gruber And they have you know, they have loungers with umbrellas. And all you have to do is a hotel guest just have them reserve it. They give you a form the night before and the reserve you loungers down in the front. And then if those don't fill up, then like people can come and pay to stay at the other ones, you know, and they can bring you drinks and food and stuff. And so it was the and the beach was beautiful. [00:42:09.850] - Tamara Gruber The water was like fairly calm, whereas up by town, like there were a lot more waves. It was rougher. Like that's where people like surf and windsurf. [00:42:17.260] - Tamara Gruber So I thought it was great even for families, you know, like it. And it was it was fun because someone had said like, oh the yeah, the because the beaches in Santorini are like rock. [00:42:28.990] - Tamara Gruber So they're like, oh no. Naxos has really good beaches there. It's like silk. And I'm like, OK, they haven't seen, you know, some beaches because that was not like Florida. Well, it was it was not rock. It was more like, you know, what I'd have here in the in the Northeast, like, you know, coarse sand and then, you know, maybe some rock, like as you are getting into the water. [00:42:51.400] - Tamara Gruber And then it kind of drops off fairly quickly. And then it's super, super soft, like there is no seaweed, no shells. [00:42:57.130] - Tamara Gruber Like it was just really beautiful. [00:42:59.470] - Tamara Gruber You could go out, you know, and just kind of float or swim. And you had a pretty good current. Glenn tried to swim a little bit and it was it was tough. [00:43:06.700] - Tamara Gruber But, you know, you can just float and just like, you know, enjoy and relax. And the water was clear and, you know, a couple of fish swimming around. It was just it was really, really beautiful. Like, I was like, why am I in the Caribbean like this water? It was so turquoise. It was really beautiful and quiet. there were families. They would play like beach games and, you know, kids around. But it was it did not feel super crowded at all, like especially if you were out there in the morning. I think I posted some pictures and you can see there was like no one in the water. It was just it was beautiful, really, really beautiful. So I loved where we stayed. [00:43:40.720] - Tamara Gruber The town right where we were staying was smaller. So it was basically like a couple of beach shops with like beach bags and bathing suits and stuff like that. [00:43:50.200] - Tamara Gruber Maybe one boutique shop where I actually bought something and a few restaurants, you know, there were there were a few like attached to hotels. There were a few like right on that beachfront road and then a couple of others, but like very, you know, authentic and good food. [00:44:07.000] - Tamara Gruber You know, like we had our two dinners that we did. There were forty euro total and we had an appetizer to like giant entrees that we couldn't finish, I think. Well, the one place they brought us a free dessert, two drinks, like I was like forty euro versus Santorini. So it was it was really very affordable there. Even the hotel restaurant, which was really good, was not overpriced, you know, for anything. A hotel restaurant is always going to be a bit more. [00:44:35.380] - Tamara Gruber So we loved it there. I would definitely recommend looking at staying there. Like I said, it was very comfortable, great service. [00:44:42.520] - Tamara Gruber And, you know, the distance from town was a little bit of a challenge, like we did take a taxi back and forth a few times. But it depends like if you're planning on renting a car or if you're going to, you know, just spend time on the beach, like you don't necessarily need to be going back and forth every day. Yes, I really enjoyed it. And then our first sounds nice. [00:45:03.010] - Kim Tate You know, first full day there, I had arranged for us to charter a private sailing on a sailboat. It was something that we had done. When we were in Italy one time and it was like one of my best travel days ever, so like, I really want to do this and we just didn't want to do like we wanted. I felt like we're in the islands, like, how do you not get out on the water and see it from the water? [00:45:25.360] - Kim Tate And like that felt like part of the experience. But I didn't want to do like a big group thing. Like, it just wasn't comfortable with that. [00:45:31.900] - Tamara Gruber So, yes, I had booked it through Naxos Sailing and the guy, the Captain George was like he was such a character, so funny. [00:45:40.960] - Tamara Gruber So I don't know, like, sarcastic, like just he was great. But he also like, you know, he really took care of us and he had like another guy that was kind of like apprenticing for him, helping out too. But we went out for the whole day and we went first to it. So basically, like from Naxos, you can see the island of Paros. So we went over to Paros and then there's some small, like a smaller island off of Paros called Antiparos And so there was an area there where we were snorkeling or is like definitely popular. You could see like a number of boats coming out to do snorkeling there. There are a couple like yachts sitting there. It was a little bit rough. It reminded me a little bit of when you and I were in Key Largo and we went, oh, yeah, yeah. So not as seasick, but like, remember when we got in there and we're like, really bobbing around like the water bobbing like this. [00:46:37.390] Like I went in and I'm going to I'm you know, I'm just not comfortable in the water. It's, I've never like the water, I don't enjoy swimming. I don't like going under the water. Snorkeling is fine because I can stay on top. But then when you're like bobbing around and then like a wave is coming and like water went down my snorkel. So then I'm like coughing and they're like, just blow it out. And I'm like, no, I'm done. [00:46:55.000] - Tamara Gruber I'm out of here. So, Glenn, you know, he did a little bit more and I just, like, hung out in the boat. But, you know, the water is beautiful, is great. [00:47:02.680] - Tamara Gruber Then we went over on Paros. [00:47:04.930] - Tamara Gruber There's like a sea cave that you can snorkel into, but the top of the cave has a big hole in it. So you had, like, the stream of light, like coming into this cave. So it's like a really neat experience. So we pulled up to there. But because it's like a fairly big sailboat, he couldn't get super close. [00:47:20.200] - Tamara Gruber So you'd have to, like, swim over and he gives you like a noodle and stuff, you know, because, like, I'm not a super strong swimmer, but I, I was like climbing down to get into the water and I just looked at it and I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. I'm sorry. Like, I'm just not I don't because I, I remember when we were in Italy, we I swam through this like grotto and like on the other side I had Hannah and stupidly, we didn't have like life jackets or noodles with us. [00:47:45.010] - Tamara Gruber And we were both getting tired. And I pulled her up on to some rocks and some guy had to like, help me get her back to the boat. So I'm like, no, I just don't think I can swim that far. Like, I don't think I'm that, you know, I'm comfortable. So Glenn went with, like, the other guy on the boat and I just hung out on the boat and he loved it. He thought it was great, but it just wasn't something like like, again, I'm just not a very good swimmer. [00:48:06.370] - Tamara Gruber So then from there went to like a small fishing village on Paros and we could stay in, like, hang out and have lunch there and go to a beach there. We're going to be there for like three hours. So it gives you time to like explore Paros. That's the reason I booked this particular tour, because I felt like, oh, this gives us a way to, like, see another island without having to, like, worry about the ferry schedule. [00:48:29.860] - Tamara Gruber So we decided to go and take a cab to the main town and I always mispronounce this one too. But it's like Naoussa. We had to wait a really long time for a cab. So again, like if we had arranged it ahead of time, it would have worked much better because by the time we finally got there, we only had like a little over an hour and we needed to eat some lunch too. [00:48:59.380] - Tamara Gruber Like I would have I would have had lunch while I was waiting if I had known it was going to take that long. And they're like, oh, it's going to be ten minutes and it was going to be half an hour. And then suddenly, like an hour later, we're still like waiting for the cab. But that town was gorgeous. [00:49:12.490] - Tamara Gruber It was so charming. I know again, Eric has posted some pictures from there in the past, but it was I fell in love with that town and I'm like, we have to come back and we have to stay on Pario so that we can explore more of this town. [00:49:24.430] - Tamara Gruber It just felt like there were just so many shops. There's so many, like in the old town, like so many little alleyways and restaurants and things to explore. Just looks so cute. But we had kind of a quick lunch quick, a little walk through, and then we had to take the cab back. [00:49:37.990] - Tamara Gruber And then from there we sailed back to Naxos and I just kind of like chilled out. And it was it was a great day. [00:49:46.420] - Tamara Gruber So, you know, again, a really fun thing to do, whether you do it private or they do, you know, small groups, you know, and he has a bunch of different tours he does on sunset catamarans. So actually, he gives you a DVD with the photos because he has like an underwater camera. So he takes photos all throughout the trip. Then he gives you a DVD. [00:50:04.990] - Tamara Gruber So the next day when we were in town, we stopped by the boat to get the DVD and he was like, oh, someone like already reached out to me that said that, you know, they heard. About it from you, and they booked a trip with us. I'm like, oh, that's amazing. You know, so because I don't think he I mean, we paid for everything on this trip like nothing was sponsored or comped. So I didn't even always even mention that to people. [00:50:25.670] - Tamara Gruber So I don't even know if I don't think he's very savvy when it comes to Instagram. I don't think he knew that I tagged, you know. [00:50:32.000] - Tamara Gruber Oh, yeah. He was probably just like, wow, this is great, you know? Yeah. So that was a great day. I'm sorry. I'm just like going on. [00:50:41.600]

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193 Kims Summer Travels to Seattle WA and Vail CO

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 13, 2021 59:21

Kim is back to traveling and this week she fills us in on her recent Seattle staycation and her mother-daughters trip to Vail, Colorado. About Our Sponsor - Atlas Ocean Voyages Today's podcast is brought to you by Atlas Ocean Voyages. If you have ever dreamed of cruising to Greece or Egypt, now is the time to book! Atlas Ocean Voyages just introduced its expedition ship World Navigator. This small ship, luxury vessel is built for adventure in a sustainable, energy-efficient manner. Perfect for adventurous families or multi-generational groups, its compact size and small guest count of fewer than 200 passengers, means a higher space to guest ratio and more intimacy and personalized service. From August through September 2021, World Navigator will sail 7 separate 12 night itineraries to Greece and Egypt. And its small size and agility means she can dock in smaller ports, avoiding large crowds and getting a more authentic experience. And this summer, arrivals in Greece do not coincide with any other cruise ships in port! Bookings are all inclusive, including both airfare and excursions. The ship's facilities and protocols reflect state of the art public health guidance. With stringent public health protocols followed by staff and crew with pre-boarding and pre-embarkation PCR testing provided for all passengers. Social distancing will be maintained with small group shore excursions. Atlas welcomes travelers to ‘come back to something brand new' To learn more, please visit www.AtlasOceanVoyages.com and we thank them for their support. Seattle Staycation There are two many tourist districts in Seattle, one is downtown not far from Pike Place Market, the Seattle Aquarium, and the waterfront, and the other is at Seattle Center, where the Space Needle, MoPop, the Science Center, and the Chihuly Garden and Glass is located. You can use the monorail to get between these two main areas. Kim and her girls stayed at the newly remodeled Fairmont Olympic Hotel downtown. You can have afternoon tea in the newly redecorated lobby and lobby bar -- and they are very good about food allergies. A great way to explore the city is with CityPASS. For the Seattle CityPASS you can go to three of the following five attractions: Space Needle, Seattle Aquarium, Argosy Harbor Cruise, MoPop, and Woodland Park Zoo. The Pacific Science Center is usually included as an option but it is currently closed and scheduled to reopen in late 2021. Many attractions currently require reservations but the CityPASS system makes this easy to do online -- although it pays to do it a week or more in advance. If you can, try to plan your days to visit the Aquarium and Pike Place on the same day (and do a harbor cruise if that is your choice). Then visit the Space Needle, Chihuly, and MoPop on the same day since they are all very close to each other. You can then visit the zoo on the third day of your trip. However, you should consider the weather forecast and try to pick a clear day to visit the Space Needle. Right now MoPop has a special Disney Villians and Heroes Exhibit (not included in the CityPASS) Pike Place Chowder in the waterfront area is a great place for lunch. Woodland Park Zoo currently has a very cute baby gorilla. Summer Trip to Vail Note: Kim and her family were hosted by Vail Resorts. All opinions are her own. If you fly into Denver, you can take the Epic Mountain Express shuttle to Vail, which is about a 2.5 hour trip depending on traffic (Denver is known for bad traffic) Kim stayed in the Manor Vail condos, about a 10 minute walk from Vail Village (there are also shuttles). Manor Vail is next to the Betty Ford Alpine Gardens In Vail Village there are many restaurants and shops, an indoor bowling alley, and outdoor cornhole, which is a lot of fun Give yourself time to adjust to altitude but rest, drinking a lot of water, and an oxygen shot can help. You can go horseback riding in Vail with a two hour trail ride through a magical forest. Alpen Rose is a great spot in town for dinner. From Lion's Head you can take the Eagle Bahn Gondola At the top of the mountain there is an Epic Discovery park with ziplines, a mountain coaster, trampolines, a rock wall, and a lawn slide. Eating at the top of the mountain is expensive so be prepared or eat before you go. The ziplines and ropes course is currently closed for the summer. Picnic Vail will arrange a picnic for you at the Betty Ford Alpine Gardens, including set up and clean up, complete with food and interactive games to play together. If you can visit during the week it will be less crowded in Vail Village and at the activities If you decide to rent a car, rent in advance and be prepared for long lines and high rates this summer. There are also more flight cancellations this summer as travel gets back into gear and airlines struggle to bring employees back on board. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.060] - Kim Tate Staycation and vacations. Find out what Kim's been up to this summer. [00:00:16.530] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.620] - Tamara Gruber Today's podcast is brought to you by Atlas Ocean Voyages. If you've ever dreamed of cruising to Greece or Egypt, now is the time to book Atlas. Ocean Voyages just introduced its new expedition ship, The World Navigator. This small ship luxury vessel is built for adventure in a sustainable but energy efficient manner. It's perfect for adventurous families or multigenerational groups. It's compact size and small guest count of fewer than 200 passengers means a higher space to guest ratio and more intimacy and personalized service. [00:01:01.500] - Tamara Gruber From August through September 2021, World Navigator will sail seven separate 12 night itineraries to Greece and Egypt, and its small size and agility means she can dock in smaller ports, avoiding large crowds and getting a more authentic experience. And this summer, arrivals in Greece do not coincide with any other cruise ships in port bookings are all inclusive, including both airfare and excursions. The ship's facilities and protocols reflect state of the art public health guidance, with stringent public health protocols followed by staff and crew. [00:01:30.390] - Tamara Gruber With preboarding and pre embarkation PCR testing provided for all passengers, social distancing will be maintained with small groups shore excursions. Atlas welcomes travelers to come back to something brand new. To learn more, please visit www.AtlasOcean Voyages.com, and we thank them for their support. So Kim, I'm sure you're like melting over there in Seattle in this heat wave. Are you ready to hop on a cruise ship to Greece? [00:01:56.760] - Kim Tate Yes. That sounded pleasant when you were saying it. I was thinking it'd be so nice to stand out on a cruise deck with the ocean. And, you know, that cool ocean breeze sounds so amazing right now. [00:02:08.310] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And, you know, I love the small ship concept. Sounds like really good to me. And the fact that it can go into the smaller ports and the more authentic kind of places and not have any other cruise ships and ports. You're not fighting with all those other gazillion passengers. [00:02:22.710] - Kim Tate You know, that's huge, I think, because we all I mean, those of us who have cruised on mega ships, which is everything I've done, you definitely get that sense of kind of being the herd at the end of the dock as you all come off and everybody's trying to sell you stuff and it's just chaos. [00:02:40.800] - Kim Tate So I like the idea that it's just a small ship and kind of sounds like it's more of an intimate feel and you probably get more, you know, like you think when you step off and there's not a bunch of people you can kind of enjoy taking in the scenery a little more. You're not worried about all the hustle and bustle and hurrying somewhere, right? [00:02:57.630] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. Yeah. Well, I'm by the time this comes out, I'm actually going to be back from my trip from Greece, assuming all goes well. But you've had a few little trips of your own recently and I would love to hear more about them. So do you want to tell us a little bit about your staycation first? [00:03:15.690] - Kim Tate Of course, yeah. I'm so excited to get a chat a little because you've been so busy traveling. So finally, I got to dip my toes back in the summer travels and our first trip was more of just a staycation and it was with Seattle. And what happened is basically it was that CityPASS had reached out and said, hey, are you still in Seattle? Do you want to, you know, use some CityPASSes and enjoy some of the sights now that they're opening back up? [00:03:39.060] - Kim Tate And I said, absolutely, let's do it. And so I actually arranged with the Fairmont in Seattle, the Fairmont Olympic Hotel, which I've never stayed at before. And it's kind of considered one of those classic original hotels in Seattle that people will actually come in to kind of tour and get a look around. And they have a brand new lobby design and a brand new lobby bar that they just opened. So I reached out to them and they hosted us for two nights. [00:04:07.260] - Kim Tate And one thing I'll say is for people who are planning a trip to Seattle, I don't know much about Seattle. I consider, of course, Seattle's spread out and has tons of neighborhoods and each neighborhood has some benefits and nice parts to it. But if you're going to do like the traditional touristy things, there's kind of a downtown district that's more of the business district and it's just up from kind of Pike Place Market and the wharf and the aquarium and all the all the cruise sports kind of are nearby there. And then a little further up is Seattle Center. And that's where I mean, I know, you know this that's where they have MoPop and the Space Needle and Chiluly is there as well as the science center. So there's two main kind of tourist sectors. And I personally love staying in the more the downtown corridor that's near Pike Place, that's just I like that area better. [00:05:01.530] - Kim Tate It just has kind of a vibe that I like. So that's where Fairmont is. It's kind of in that area. And we really liked our stay there. I stayed in a King executive suite and then they gave us a connecting room for the girls, which was a double and. Again, it's just so nice I mean, the rooms are nice, very clean, you know, fresh linens and all of that, the lobby is just amazing there. [00:05:25.170] - Kim Tate And we actually had afternoon tea at the Fairmont, which is something they're well known for. All Fairmont's are known for. [00:05:30.990] - Tamara Gruber I was going to say, yes, I always think I mean, I love Fairmont Hotels. They're just wonderful. I've stayed in that area a couple of times, but it's always been the Westin. But the Fairmont's definitely are known for the tea, so you got to do that. [00:05:44.370] - Kim Tate So we did do that one day and it was so nice. The girls and I both liked it and I thought, they were so helpful with Mia's allergies. So we had said, you know, nuts and eggs are an issue. And they actually brought her out her own little tray of food and then and our own tray that Lizzy and I could eat off of. And so it's just things like, you know, we had chicken salad. [00:06:08.220] - Kim Tate Some of our sandwiches were like chicken salad on little piece of lettuce, whereas they just gave her little bits of chicken without the mayo for the salad part. And then the all the sweet treats they provided were vegan. So no eggs and then didn't have nuts. So she was very happy. And it was nice that they recognize that. And then, of course, the tea aspect, it's so fun for them. They really enjoy that because we each you know, each of us got to choose our own type of tea. [00:06:34.950] - Kim Tate And then they bring the pot and you have your glass and your little strainer and you can pour it. And they just it was just nice. And the other thing is the seating areas they have they're in the lobby for it are all cozy seating, you know, which has become so popular, I think, with hotels now. But, you know, we had like a couch and two armchairs and that was to kind of whatever you call poufs, which, of course, we didn't use because there was just three of us. [00:06:59.760] - Kim Tate But it's just a really it's kind of a fun seating area where you can relax a little bit. And so we talked and we spent, I would say, about an hour and 15 minutes just kind of enjoying our experience there. So that was a lot of fun. And I was glad that we got to experience one of the Fairmont Classic things to do. [00:07:16.410] - Tamara Gruber Did you guys get dressed up for it too? [00:07:18.510] - Kim Tate We did. Yeah, we did. I had each of the girls and I was kind of nice. So then we went back up to our room, changed into more, you know, normal everyday clothes. And we we used, which is something I did with you. We use the monorail a lot and it is under construction. Now, the Westlake Center is under construction right now, but they're still operating the monorail, which is such a convenient way, like I said, to get between those two areas. [00:07:44.070] - Kim Tate And that was the funny thing about the monorail is built with the 62 World's Fair when the Space Needle was built. And so it's got this futuristic feel, but it is just like a monorail, kind of like it Disney or, you know, anything like that. The thing that throws most people off, because I heard tourists on the train, they didn't get that. There's literally one stop. It's just a back and forth shuttle of sorts. So that's one thing to keep in mind. [00:08:08.310] - Kim Tate It's not like this really long. You're not going throughout the city in it. [00:08:12.270] - Kim Tate Yeah. You're not getting a tour. Exactly. Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. So but we use that a lot just to get up there, because like I said, with the CityPASS, which is one of the reasons we're there, your admission if you buy a CityPASS ticket, you automatically get admission to the Space Needle and the aquarium, which, like I said, are in the two different sectors. And then you also get to choose three attractions from a list of five. [00:08:35.850] - Kim Tate So it's you can either take a little harbor tour with Argosy Cruises. You can go to the Museum of Pop Culture, also known as Mo Pop, used to be called Experience Music Project. And then you can go to the Woodland Park Zoo, you can go to Chihuly garden of glass or you can go to the Pacific Science Center. The Pacific Science Center is still closed right now and isn't set to reopen until the end of this year. Late this year or so, that one wasn't an issue for us. [00:09:02.310] - Kim Tate So we chose to do the Space Needle. The aquarium, MoPop, the zoo, and Chilhuly. And the thing to think, the thing that we did on that, that is something you have to keep in mind right now. A CityPASS is the fact that you have to make reservations in advance for a lot of these places because they're still just doing limited capacity. And so I was a little worried about how that would work. However, the CityPASS system is really just works great. [00:09:28.140] - Kim Tate They have everything streamlined and it's all done electronically. You know, through a website, you just click on, say, make a reservation. The hardest reservation to make was the aquarium. They had the most limitations. And like I said, because of the location of things, I tried to pair the aquarium up on a different day, whereas I compared, like the Space Needle and Chihuly and MoPop, I wanted to pair them together since they're all in one area and then the zoo is a little further north. [00:09:55.470] - Kim Tate So when we checked out of the hotel, we just drove up to the zoo and did that before we drove home. So, yeah, it was a fun day. You know, they're just such classic things to do in Seattle, the Space Needle, it was a beautiful, clear day. It was very busy. So we once we turned it, you know, scanned our tickets for entrance. It was probably about a half an hour. Till we got to the elevator, so they have kind of a queue line that wraps around the gift shop of all places, but you stand in that line and then you you don't actually get to shop. [00:10:27.370] - Kim Tate It's kind of an overlook over the gift shop. But you then get to the elevators and they have a couple of different elevators that they start taking people up. There's actually four elevators on different sides. And I didn't even realize that. It's so funny. I've been up the Space Needle a few times and I've never really considered that it does make a difference which elevator you get your view. I mean, obviously. So the four elevators that face different directions give you a very different view. [00:10:53.020] - Kim Tate So we are lucky enough to get the which I consider one of the best elevators, which is more of the south facing elevator. So you can see Rainier as you're going up and you also see the Puget Sound a bit. And whereas if you're on the north side, you see like the Lake Union, Lake Washington, University of Washington, kind of that angle. So it's an interesting thing to keep in mind is just that depending on what elevator you get, your view up is a little different. [00:11:16.900] - Kim Tate But once you get in, you know, I walk around when you're like, yes, yes, that's I was going to say, of course, once I get to top, it doesn't matter what the view is, it's strictly just when you're in the elevator, they have to it's got kind of the window view. But, yeah, once you're at the top, they've got the interesting thing is they've got it open. However, they've started doing something. [00:11:35.410] - Kim Tate I think this might have just been I'm curious if this will stick around. I saw that they did close it for the summer. And so I'm wondering if this is going to be an off season thing or how this works. But they did close sections of the viewpoints and they had put private tables there and they sold packages to people where you could go do like wine tasting and appetizers up on the needle. And it was a table for two. And I think they had maybe some for four as well. [00:12:02.270] - Kim Tate So if you did it with another couple, but it is something to keep in mind so you don't get quite the wide open look as you used to. However, when I was doing the research, I noticed they closed. There was no more tickets for that. So I'm wondering if during peak summer they're getting rid of that. And that's more of an off season thing to help fill dollar bills that say, you know what, I'm trying to. [00:12:23.890] - Tamara Gruber So, I mean, the Space Needle, they just redid that, like not that many years ago. So I remember when you and I met up there. Yes. It after we did the cruise. Right like that. It was recently done and it looked, you know, looked things looked really nice. Yeah, it is really nice. They have a few they have kind of that the you know, they've got the glass walls now and then they have these glass benches or maybe it's not glass, plastic or whatever it is, but basically it's clear. [00:12:51.130] - Kim Tate So you can get the sensation, like you can sit on the bench and lean back, you know, so slightly angled out on the glass if you feel brave enough. And so there's a couple of things where they try make it interactive like that and then you can go down. So that's the upper level. And then you go down one level and that's where they have the rotating floor. That's the glass. And so you can stand on the floor and kind of see yourself rotate over the Seattle center area. [00:13:15.370] - Kim Tate And then, of course, you still have the windows to look out, but it's not the open air like on the upper level. And so there are two levels that you can explore. And then they have a little, you know, bar up there. So some people choose to you know, I don't know how the reservations work for that. But, you know, it's just something to keep in mind. But they are it's a fun thing to do, especially if it's a clear day, which since you have to make reservations, it's a little more, you know, to make sure you time that right. [00:13:42.850] - Kim Tate So I did definitely look on for a weekend. I looked on the weather forecast and I chose the day there was seemed, you know, it was like partly cloudy and sort of cloudy. We had a beautiful, beautiful view of Mt. Rainier in the city skyline. So it was gorgeous. [00:14:00.790] - Tamara Gruber And so it's nice and it works out, especially with your Seattle weather, right? [00:14:04.840] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Our Seattle weather man, it's like you already said, we're dying now. So it's crazy, our weather. So that's the one thing we did. And then we actually had worked it. We actually did that on the first day. And like I said, how I tried to pair everything up. But the aquarium we did that evening. So we finished up the needle, went and got lunch and then came back and then walked down and did the aquarium, which is, you know, it's it's renowned and people love it. [00:14:32.530] - Kim Tate It's my girls really wanted to go there. That was the number one thing they wanted to do. I think it's a fine aquarium. It's not like Monterey Bay Aquarium or it's not, you know, like some of these massive aquariums that you hear about the Seattle aquariums. Not like that. The cool thing about the Seattle Aquarium is that it's really focused around, like the fact that it sits over Puget Sound and they actually funnel water from the sound through some of their exhibits. [00:14:55.660] - Kim Tate You get a real sense that these are the animals, this is the climate, this is the habitat that you're looking at right out here. And I think that's the neat the neat part of it is that it is so tangibly linked to the Puget Sound. So that's one cool thing. They they're little. They my girls love their little otters and they were not out and visible. So we were kind of bummed on that. But it's neat to be down there. [00:15:20.860] - Kim Tate And like I said, it's on the waterfront, which is always a fun, fun place to walk around and see. [00:15:28.000] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I remember when I was there just to hanging out at the otters for quite a while because they are so cute is a bummer that they're not that they weren't swimming. They are there are a lot of fun to watch. And I do have to say something really quickly about if you're the type that likes to buy souvenirs, all these Seattle attractions do an amazing job with their gift shops. I don't know who curates them or whatever, but we end up always browsing and walking through the gift shops and they they just somehow find the cutest little things that they procure. And so allow time for that and money for that. [00:16:03.340] - Kim Tate If you like buying souvenirs, because the gift shops at the Space Needle, especially, we bought actually a puzzle for my mom. That was from the sixty two World's Fair. That was really cool. And the girls got Lizzy got two sweatshirts. But anyways, the Seattle Aquarium was great. We went back then we went we went and got dinner and then kind of called it a night. And then the next day we did Chihuly and Mo Pop. [00:16:30.370] - Kim Tate I'm sure a lot of people have heard of Dave Chihuly. He's a major glass artist that he actually studied in the Seattle area for a while. And that's why there's such a tie to him there. I can't remember where he's originally from. I'm blanking right now. But he helped found some of the glass school stuff in Seattle. So he's a big name for the Seattle Glass art community. But that usually garden and glass exhibit is just beautiful. It's not if you've been there once, it doesn't really change. [00:16:57.700] - Kim Tate It's but it's got the most amazing artistry when you can really look at the artistry of the pieces instead of just like, oh, cool. It's a big piece of art sculpture that's cool. And you kind of get past it. But then when you actually start diving in and looking at the unique striations or little bumps here and you think of how that was done with hot molten glass, it really is quite, quite amazing artistry. [00:17:23.080] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, his work is is amazing. I've I mean, I think everyone's seen it even if they don't know that they've seen it. You know, there's so many pieces and so many places from like know casinos to airports and all that, that that museum is really spectacular. [00:17:37.780] - Kim Tate Yeah, it's quite beautiful. And they have a nice little, you know, cafe near there that we actually ate at on this trip. And I love that cafe because it's kind of fun. They have these it's a really eclectic it's like collectors. They have they have like a whole bunch of old accordions hanging from the ceiling. And then they have these old radios on the wall. And I don't know, it's kind of fun on our our table. [00:18:01.570] - Kim Tate There was a hollowed out section. So under the glass top table, there were, I think, old radios. It's just cute. [00:18:08.140] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I remember the food is good. It wasn't just like, you know, some places would have a like a restaurant cafe and it would be like, you know, burgers and fries and stuff like. [00:18:17.210] - Kim Tate Yes, this one. Nice. Yeah, this was flatbread. Pizzas is what they had going on right now and definitely pricey. But the the pizzas were delicious. We each got one and yeah, it was well done. And you can see them cook in the pizzas, you know, nearby. So it was great. So that was a nice little stop. And again, it's right next to the Space Needle, but we had done that the previous day and then we went over to Mo Pop, which I actually upgraded from our CityPASS. [00:18:44.500] - Kim Tate Right now they have a Disney Heroes and Villains costume exhibit, which was six dollars more per person. So I actually paid that and upgraded our CityPASS. The CityPASS covers the the museum itself and then the extra exhibit cost more. But we've been. To MoPop before, and it's it's just kind of a fun, fun thing. It was funny because I was just there in March with Mia when it was still kind of, you know, things were still kind of locked down and they had just recently reopened and there was nobody in there. [00:19:13.870] - Kim Tate And they had a Minecraft exhibit that she was really wanting to go see. And so we had gone and done that and there was nobody in there. And, you know, you get there and they gave us these little styluses to use. And now when we when we went there and it was, you know, June, everything's open again. And they still have the timed entry. But there was so many people. And, you know, Lizzy was kind of sad because she didn't get to see the Minecraft exhibit because they got rid of that, of course, to bring in the Disney exhibit. [00:19:40.030] - Kim Tate And there was just it was there was a lot of people visiting. And so tourism is definitely back in Seattle. We had one of our favorite places that Mia loves is called Pike Place Chowder, and they are down this kind of back alley is what it's called near Pike Place Market. And we thought, oh, yeah, we'll just hop over there and get you some food. And that was our first experience, like our first day down there. [00:20:02.860] - Kim Tate We went down there to go get lunch there. And I was like, wow, OK, tourism's definitely back because the line was all the way to the street. And, you know, it's just it was just kind of funny. It was it was great. It's great to see that people are back and visiting the city and spending money. And so we were you're like, oh, I have to wait in line. [00:20:20.690] - Kim Tate Exactly. Especially when it's a staycation. Right? You're like, oh, this this is my town. I want to just be able to do whatever I want. And why didn't I take advantage of this before everyone came back? So, yeah, it's but it was good. So we didn't get the chowder there. But I don't remember where I was going with this when I went off on that. [00:20:41.950] - Tamara Gruber I've been to MoPop twice and I do love that they always change those exhibits because, you know, it makes it very fresh. But I do I think the first time I visited, I didn't realize that I was in a temporary exhibit. So I came back and I told Glenn all about this whole Star Trek exhibit. So when we were there for the cruise, we're like, we got to go, we got to go. [00:20:57.610] - Tamara Gruber And we went there and he's like, there's no Star Trek exhibit. But then I think it was like Marvel, which, you know, he loved, you know, having that thing, all the Marvel costumes. Right. [00:21:06.380] - Kim Tate But yeah, that was good. That's always that up upper level is the one that they use. And they do I think I think sometimes the visiting exhibits are just amazing. We there's another one that we always like. That's the fairy tale which is down. There's the floor of horrors, which is kind of freaky. And then there's the, you know, fairy tale exhibit, which is kind of fun. But we it's funny because things must be getting busy again, like I said, because there is a few things when me and I were there in March that she wanted to show Lizzy, like one of it was I'm trying to think is a crown from some I can't think of which show now. [00:21:44.530] - Kim Tate And it was on loan somewhere. And then another piece that was in the Harry Potter memorabilia was on loan and they had put something else instead. And we're like, oh, man. You know, I was just kind of funny how sometimes the rotate to you, so but they have a few like inset places and of course, Nirvanas huge there. And that's a big part that people a lot of people do pilgrimages to Seattle to do the whole nirvana and grunge movement thing. [00:22:13.690] - Kim Tate So that's a big part of it there. Sound lab, which they normally have, which our kids love, and it's very hands on thing that is still closed. So they don't have the sound lab open. But the Heroes and Villains exhibit with Disney was amazing. It was so neat, especially because I like Disney and just the costuming. It makes you realize how much costumes make characters really stand out. And I think it's just it's really cool to see that. [00:22:42.260] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, those are really neat, especially for like fantasy kind of shows like that, like where you said it's it is so much about the costume. Like I'm thinking of you and I were in Belfast and we went to the Game of Thrones exhibit all the you know, the different costumes for them. [00:22:58.000] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the Belfast one was cute or cool with the Game of Thrones because they had a lot of the accessories and props as well. This one didn't have as much like the props. It was definitely the costumes. So but anyway, so that was kind of cool. And then, like I said, our last day we went to Woodland Park Zoo, which is kind of just normal zoo. They do have a baby gorilla, which was born in January and it still looks so small. [00:23:25.540] - Kim Tate And we were seen and the mom was just holding it. And it was funny just the way seeing her hold it and just the way she would like pat his head, like just, you know, and this kind of maternal way. It was so sweet. And yeah. [00:23:39.670] - Tamara Gruber So I remember seeing your story about that and just how cute and sweet it is. [00:23:43.990] - Kim Tate It's so adorable. Yeah. Yeah. So that was kind of our little Seattle staycation. It was great. There was just you know, it was I really do think that when you're going to do the traditional tourist things and even being locals, we still like to do some of these tourist things. The CityPASS really is a great way to do it, and especially if I think I did the math and basically you have to do three things. [00:24:07.350] - Kim Tate You can do four and already save money. And then, of course, you get an extra bonus item as well. So if you're if you're planning to visit for it depends on how the math works. But most of it is if you're planning to do four of the things, then yes, makes a lot of sense. [00:24:22.020] - Tamara Gruber And I like the way, you know, in Seattle, they're so clustered able to do like if you could get the timed entry tickets. And, you know, when this science center opens, like, you know, the way then the Space Needle and the Chihuly and the Science Center, it's like you can just so easily walk to all the three. [00:24:38.040] - Kim Tate All those. Yeah. Same at the Science Center. It's right there as well. So. Yeah. Yeah. And then the crew. Yeah, yeah. It's all together. And then the Argosy Cruises is down by the aquarium, so that's very easy to get in the right place anyway. [00:24:50.790] - Tamara Gruber So it's exciting to be there. So it's like you can really fit it into a weekend or definitely a three day weekend, but even a two day weekend because sometimes you feel like I'm never going to be able to fit all this in if I'm just visiting for a weekend. But I think. Yeah, yeah, CityPASS is great. And like, not only I mean, it may not be the case now, but there are some times when you can skip the line to you. [00:25:12.570] - Tamara Gruber And I did that in New York when I went to the Empire State Building. And that saves you I mean, I could save you a couple of hours sometimes. [00:25:19.590] - Kim Tate I agree. Yeah. It can be really useful to be able to do that. I didn't have that at the Space Needle. They used to a long time ago. So I don't know if they'll ever bring that back. But it's not a not a thing they're right now. But yeah, when you can skip the line, they normally promote or publish that. And that's very helpful. Yeah. So, yeah, that's right. I agree. Yeah, it was good. [00:25:40.590] - Kim Tate And I think a weekend, it works for a weekend. It depends how busy you want to be because if you want to it's definitely that. But we're going to be doing attractions all weekend long and not having a lot of downtime when you get you eat and just kind of wander between the two things. So we'll see how long the advance reservations last. And that just requires a little bit of advance planning. But like I said, we were able to get reservations. [00:26:02.670] - Kim Tate No problem. I booked, I believe, the day before. So like I said, the aquarium was the hardest one. That one was one where it would have made more sense to book it a week out and book that one first. So just a heads up on that. But yeah. [00:26:15.450] So from that, we just got home from Vail, which was very different. But I'm excited to share all about that trip. And we so from Seattle, we flew into Denver and then we took the epic Mountain Express shuttle from Denver to Vail. [00:26:33.030] - Kim Tate And we've taken a shuttle system like that to Keystone as well before. And so all those from Denver to all of those kind of mountain resorts, it's about a two to two and a half hour trip. But traffic is definitely the the asterisk on that. [00:26:50.340] - Tamara Gruber Yes. [00:26:50.880] - Kim Tate Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've been in the area, too, but Denver traffic can really throw a kink into things. There's construction a lot of times, especially with the summer and then just a lot of people coming in and out of Denver in all directions to go to the suburbs. And so that's just something to keep in mind, is that traffic can be an issue. Hopefully it's not, especially in the summer. It's less of an issue in the winter. [00:27:14.400] - Kim Tate Sometimes there's avalanches or, you know, roads are closed down for a few hours. And so that can be an issue. But it is standard. I've done like I said, we've done it twice and both times it's been about two to two and a half hours. And they do allow they have us a middle midway spot that they will actually say, does anybody need to use the restroom or get something to drink? And they have like it's kind of funny because it's a privately owned store and Starbucks that's actually owned by the by Epic Ski, you know, Vail Resorts that does the epic. [00:27:46.800] - Kim Tate So it's kind of funny. So they they stop there and they have, you know, front curb parking for the shuttles and you can go in and go to the restroom. And then of course, seems like all all of us bought Starbucks as well. So it's a smart little a very contained system. You get all the. [00:28:05.600] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, they've got it figured out. So anyways, that's but that's good. So we headed to Vail and we actually stayed at this condo resort type community called Manor Vail. And it is just I want to say east, but I don't know my map perfectly for Vail. So it could be us, but it's just about ten minutes walking distance like outside of Vail Village, but really connected availability, if that makes sense to you just kind of wandering in to get to the main center. [00:28:34.620] - Kim Tate It might not even be ten minutes, but about ten minutes would be the safe thing to say. So we walked. So you have so many different accommodations, things. So, you know, always going to be like directly in the village. [00:28:47.730] - Tamara Gruber But I mean, I remember when we a couple of summers ago stayed in Copper Mountain and we were right in the village. There's downsides to that, too, because like the music playing and stuff like that. So it's sometimes it's not too bad to have, like, a little bit of a walk. [00:29:00.450] - Kim Tate Yeah, we actually really liked it and there is a free metro shuttle system and we chose to walk because it was not bad. We did get rained on once and we just dealt with it. The girls were give me a hard time. They're like, we're from Seattle, Mom, like, chill out, it's fine. And I was like, don't you want to take the bus? But yeah. So it was it was great. [00:29:22.080] - Kim Tate And so they do have a bus that, you know, operates regularly, like every I think they say like five, eight minutes, you know, a bus is coming around and takes you and then so on. The other end is Lionhead, which is where another one of the big gondolas is and between where we stayed in Manor Vail and Lion's Head is about one mile, but it's about a 30 minute walk just because of curves and in and out of streets. [00:29:42.750] - Kim Tate And we did that walk, we know one day and it is a little longer, but it's totally doable. And so I you know, we really liked it. We fell in love with Vale Village. It was it was so nice. And just what you expect of those kind of, you know, European folsky villages, it was just nice. And I think that's a hidden those are hidden destinations in the summer, although it's certainly definitely it certainly seemed busy. [00:30:06.680] - Kim Tate I'll say that, you know, which is great to see. [00:30:09.480] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, I've only experienced it a little bit, but I really love mountain resorts in the summer and I have not been Vail. But when I whenever I see anyone's pictures, it just looks like a little Swiss town. And I'm like, oh yeah. It just it looks so cute. And I just I would love to do this today. It's just so it's just nice to be, you know, in the mountains because they have so many activities like those those resorts are so good about, you know, like you don't have to leave that resort. [00:30:35.040] - Tamara Gruber There's so much to do. Right. [00:30:36.840] - Kim Tate Right. Well, it's so nice to be able I mean, there's so much to eat. I just there's so much. And so we're we're out Manor Vail. It's actually right next to this Betty Ford Alpine Gardens area and park. And so we had this beautiful view of the water and people were, you know, go over there and they sometimes have little festivals and there's an amphitheater over there. And it's just really neat. And like you said, there's just there's stuff to do. [00:31:00.930] - Kim Tate And even if, you know, like in the center of town, there's this big Solaris, which is a kind of luxury condo, I think, resort. And they have a big space. They have like the lower level are all restaurants and shops. And then upper levels are the rooms. And on the lower level, they have this place called Bowl, which is an indoor bowling alley. And then outside they have cornhole in kind of an open green space that kids were playing soccer while we were playing cornhole. [00:31:26.580] - Kim Tate And there's just they can sell you drinks and there is seating and you can just hang out and chat. And so it's a really it's kind of one of those villages where you could easily just go find a place to people watch and sit and drink and eat and chat. And so I think it's a really good social town, if that makes sense, like it's a good place to go, be social as a family or with friends for sure. Yeah. [00:31:48.840] - Kim Tate So yeah, our first so we flew in and the first day we arrived we just took it easy and we had dinner at our, you know, after a long travel day, we just had dinner at our hotel which they have like a little restaurant there. And then the next day we got up to go horseback riding. And one thing is, Lizzy, she got up and she was going to go. She was like, oh, I'm not feeling good. [00:32:08.910] - Kim Tate And it took her a while to get out of the room. We were a little late because we were just buying her. We bought her some oxygen shot and she got there and there was a booking issue. They only had two of us and they were going to add a third. But she's like, you know, honestly, I don't feel good anyways. And we didn't want her to, like, pass out on top of her horse or be uncomfortable. [00:32:27.810] - Kim Tate Yeah. So the we had gotten, you know, driven there by the hotel. And so they we called and they were going to come back and get her and take her back to the room. And we told her just to drink lots of water, eat food, rest, take some of the more of the oxygen shot. And then so me and I went on the horseback ride and I was we made the right choice because we actually went up quite a bit like took a bit of an elevation because we wanted to out to our to her, to our to her anyways, changing ours there, but headed up the mountain. [00:32:56.790] - Kim Tate And it was just beautiful. It's nice to go horseback riding. We did it through Vail Stables, which was right across from where we were staying at at Manor Vail. So it was an easy, really easy get to thankfully they drove us. It's oh, it's across the main interstate. So you can't, like, walk there and it's quite up the hill a little. So but it was it was fun. We had our little horseback ride and it was the nice thing. [00:33:20.550] - Kim Tate Like one of the one of the parts was they called it magical forest and it was where it was a really narrow path. And of course, it was a trail ride. So single single-file line, but it was just through these aspen trees and just the green and the white bark of the aspen trees and just like little birds chirping. And we actually heard they were like, that's a moment that was talking, you know, like to make these funny noises. [00:33:44.280] - Kim Tate And so it was just it was really nice. It's a great way to kind of get that mountain, you know, Aspen feel. And then, of course, we got on a couple little meadow outlooks where you could look down and see Vail Village in the distance. So that was pretty cool. But yeah. So we did that. Yeah, and then once we came back and got to the room, Lizzy was feeling much better and was ready to go out to lunch. [00:34:05.810] - Kim Tate And so thankfully, she had adjusted with the rest and water and oxygen. We had gone into the village and did a little bit of shopping, like souvenir shopping for some sweatshirts and just getting a feel for the village a little. And then we went back to our room and we were thinking about going swimming, but it looked like there was rain moving in. So we decided to just that we wouldn't do that. And then we ended up going to dinner that night at a really famous place in the village called Alpen Rose, which when you're talking about like Suess, this is total Bavarian, I think, a little restaurant in the heart of the village. [00:34:42.410] - Kim Tate And it was so perfect. It's kind of one of those things where, you know, we had a busy day and then there was some rain and we just were looking for a good evening meal. And this place was just amazing. It's a very it's I wouldn't call it very limited menu, but it's a small menu because what they do, they do really well. If that makes sense and they put us in this front little it's kind of a house is what it feels like, maybe like a chalet, because it's kind of open, like not tons of little rooms, but the lower floor definitely felt kind of like a house. [00:35:15.020] - Kim Tate And they put us at the front, a front window bench seating table, which was just so cute. And you could totally they have an outdoor patio as well. And it was just amazing. We loved it. And it was kind of one of those things we had. We all three of us got hot chocolates which were served in these kind of enamel mugs that just looked really cute with the whipped cream. It was just it felt like we were like you said, it felt like we were at a European ski village and just enjoying some great pasta, Mia got salmon, and it was it was awesome. [00:35:49.670] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I was going to ask if you had, like, schnitzel or something like that because it seemed like it would the kind of place. [00:35:54.390] - Kim Tate That's exactly. They had it on the menu. There is schnitzel on the menu. But yeah, we were we realized we got a few because there was a big pretzel. I don't know if you saw the picture that, you know, they had a massive pretzel. And then we also got this. I can't even think of the name of it, but there is kind of like fried potato bites of sorts. And we got so full we realized that Lizzy and I should have just shared because we both ordered the pasta carbonara, which featured grandma's pasta, which was like fresh made pasta. [00:36:23.930] - Kim Tate And we realized we should just shared it because after the appetizers and, you know, the hot chocolate and everything, we we both didn't finish our our plates of pasta. [00:36:32.240] - Tamara Gruber I feel like there's always so many times when Hannah and I are traveling and we're like, when are we going to learn that we need to just share? [00:36:37.730] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think you should we should know that, like when you order appetizers, but you order the appetizer and then you're like, OK, well, what are you going to order for your main dish? Then you just kind of forget that there's going to be this other food that's about ready to arrive, right? [00:36:49.160] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And, you know, sometimes menus are exciting and you're like, well, that sounds good. And that sounds good. [00:36:54.920] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, we that was our we ended our day on that one and the next day we like I said, we walked over to Lion's Head, which is such a fun walk. I mean it really is like I said, and I don't know how to say this enough, but part of the appeal was just wandering and kind of going into shops. And there's so many little patio seating areas where you could just go, OK, let's go get a drink here. [00:37:17.060] - Kim Tate We'll have an appetizer here. I think it would be really fun to do that is where you just kind of visit one place and get something here and then go to another place, get another drink and eat something there and just kind of wander around, I think would be a real fun way to enjoy that village. So we wandered and walked over to Lion's Head and we ended up going up the Eagle Bahn Gondola because we were headed up to the top of the mountain to be able to go on there. [00:37:41.840] - Kim Tate They have it's called Epic Discovery, and it's basically kind of like an adventure park at the top, OK? And they've got, you know, zip lines and ropes courses and a big giant lawn slide. And they've got this little roller coaster, mountain coaster thing. And then they also had little kids. They've got like kids bouncy like trampolines, and they got a kid zip line. And then they have like a rock climbing wall and a kid's lawn slide as well. [00:38:06.170] - Kim Tate So it works well, like there's some little kid things as well. And we were there and then lightning moved in in the area. And so they had to shut everything down. So they shut the gondola down. So we did a couple of passes on the slide. And then unfortunately, we weren't able to do any more of the activities. And we actually kind of just waited up there. They had a food place, so we grabbed some food. [00:38:26.090] - Kim Tate I'll be honest that the food was extremely pricey at the top of the mountain. So once they it's kind of like once they have you there, they know you don't have an option. [00:38:36.800] - Kim Tate So we did get some we got some fries and some drinks because we weren't sure how long we'd be waiting. And then we they opened back the gondola and we thought, well, instead of waiting on the line, we'll go wait and hope that they open the coaster back. They opened both gondolas, but they didn't open the epic discovery things and the zip lines and the ropes courses were both already closed for the summer, I don't know if they're going to do a renovation, but to me it looked like it was probably just staffing because those things, I think, require a lot of staff for getting in and out at a higher level of training, probably also just for insurance and security. So those were not open. And so we went back down the gondola and just kind of again explored the village a little bit and hung out. We got lunch and then we headed back to our room to get ready because we were doing something really cool, which was called Picnic Vail, which like I said, remember how I said Manor Vail is right next to the Betty Ford Gardens. [00:39:36.060] - Kim Tate Actually it's this company. I think it's a lady like she started up this business called Picnic Vail. And she basically comes and sets up a little one of those outdoor picnic, the charming outdoor picnics for you outdoors. And she found for us because she was like, well, we don't know if it's going to sprinkle again because it had rain. Like we said, that we got stranded up on the mountain because rain and we got back down. [00:39:58.020] - Kim Tate It wasn't raining anymore. So we went over to the gardens and it was sunny and gorgeous. And she had set us up in this little picnic underneath the bow of an evergreen tree, like it was kind of open and it was so cute. She had a table set up and it was just like this gorgeous charcuterie board. And then we had water. And then she also had a table of games, which was really fun. [00:40:19.530] - Kim Tate I didn't realize that would be part of it. So when we were thinking, I was like, oh, it's probably going to be about an hour, you know, just eat and chat and then we'll go. But we got there and she had, like, ladder ball set up, you know, the little ladder ball we have. Those are fun. Yeah. And so we had ladder ball and then there was also like this conversation starters. [00:40:37.590] - Kim Tate It's the, you know, that Scandinavian word for like cozy home. h y y g y e. [00:40:46.990] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. [00:40:47.460] - Kim Tate Anyways that was like a conversation starter game and we had a lot of fun doing that. We kept just passing around the cards and we draw and ask questions for the other people and it was just fun. It was a great conversation thing and and then yeah. Ladder ball and there was something else. I'm blanking out what it was, but we had just a great time. We really enjoyed it. So and again, she was able to make sure that there was no nuts or eggs on the board. [00:41:11.490] - Kim Tate So that worked out well as well and really good with that. [00:41:15.810] - Tamara Gruber So that was a nice change from being just always restaurants to have something like that. And when I saw pictures of you doing like a lot of guys assume that that was like where the cornhole was and like other games, like in the village. [00:41:27.840] - Kim Tate So that's, you know, yeah, it was our own private little experience, you know. So it was great. It was I mean, it was fun. The funny thing was they were also doing a festival of sorts. [00:41:39.900] - Kim Tate It looked really small. It wasn't massive, but they had live music. So we had heard the live music the night before. And then when that happened on that was Friday night, they had live music again. So she was like, I didn't realize you'd get live music with your, you know, with your picnic. So we sat there. Is this kind of funny because the festival is like right there and we get to hear the live music while we enjoy things. [00:42:00.870] - Kim Tate So it was great. It was a fun little experience. And and the nice thing is she you know, she leaves like her name and her phone number. So you get two hours and then she's like, if you want to leave early or just give her, you know, 20 to 30 minute heads up because she cleans everything up for you. And the food, of course, since it's in a park, she doesn't want there to be attract animals. [00:42:20.850] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, that's really neat, because when I saw it again, I just assumed that, like, you picked up a picnic from a place that does picnics, but you picked up a picnic and there they are and they included games. But I didn't realize, like, they set it up for you. They set it up for you. Is you like. That's exactly it was it was a nice service. Yeah. [00:42:37.590] - Kim Tate Yeah, it was great. Yeah. You do nothing. So and there was even take home containers. She's like, oh there's containers if you want to take home any leftovers. And we're like, well we've been eating well and we leave tomorrow so there's no time for us to eat it. So thank you though. But yeah, you, you don't have to do any of the cleanup. She acts like there's a bag there for garbage if you do open stuff, wrap garbage and things. [00:42:57.210] - Kim Tate But yeah, it's all done for you. And that was what was so nice. And I think for families it's it would be so nice for moms. I mean, it was so nice for me to just show up and the kids fix their own food and all of that. And then we had games that they played and we're having fun with. And then I just called her and I'm like, OK, we're ready to wrap up. And then she showed back up and it was I mean, and you don't have to do that. [00:43:19.200] - Kim Tate If you go the two hours, which we could have, it was just the girls were getting a little tired. So I was like, go ahead. You know, we just did fifteen minutes earlier. So we said, you know, meet us at some fifteen and yeah, it was just awesome. So I think it was it was cool. Like I tried to start folding the blanket because we as she left to really cozy blankets as well in case it got chilly and I had pulled one out and she's like, don't, don't do that. [00:43:41.340] - Kim Tate Stop being a mom. I get it. I clean up everything. [00:43:43.800] - Kim Tate You know, it was awesome. So I think for for being on vacation, it was a really fun way to, you know, just relax. And it was unique for the girls as well. So they were engaged more on playing and, you know, just kind of the game, you know, varied the games. She had like four different games. There, so you definitely have enough where kids get bored with one thing, you can move to something else. [00:44:04.780] - Kim Tate So it was great. [00:44:05.550] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, and you're not like waiting for the server to come over to order and then waiting for your food. And then we had another check and all that kind of stuff. So. [00:44:13.650] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. [00:44:14.760] - Tamara Gruber Yes. Sounds like a great getaway. Now I'm like, OK, Colorado next year. [00:44:19.500] - Kim Tate Yes, I loved it. I you know, the girls were saying, like, because I asked them, I say, what is this some place you would want to come back to? You know, what did you think? And they were like, yes, they absolutely loved it. And like I said, the Vail Village was really cool. I definitely I would give I mean, I think it depends on what you're looking for. But I did notice, you know, we arrived Wednesday and even like coming in and seeing what we saw Wednesday and then Thursday, the difference between Friday and then when we left on Saturday is quite remarkable. [00:44:47.880] - Kim Tate So it definitely, I think, attracts weekend visitors. And so if you can visit during the weekday, you might have more of a a little more laid back. But then again, if you're looking for like the live music and a lot of the if you like that vibe of the socialization and stuff, the weekends are great for that. So that's just something to keep in mind. [00:45:08.610] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, no surprise, I guess. But I think the other thing is, like you mentioned, just kind of planning for that traffic and stuff, right? [00:45:16.740] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And I asked them, I said, is it tied to like rush hour, like you should get into the airport during a certain time and not during, you know? And they said, well, that's some of it. But a lot of it, they said, is just the construction. You can't always be sure. But like our return trip, he said, like, he brought us some wide way instead of going, like closer to the city. [00:45:38.130] - Kim Tate He took a different route because he said, you know, he was looking at traffic and he's like, oh, you know, 70s really bad. So we're going to do 70. What? I don't remember it. It was so just something to keep in mind that you can probably ask if you are getting a shuttle. And they do know kind of the if you're not renting a car, the shuttle people kind of know the tricks to try and avoid some of it. [00:45:59.310] - Kim Tate So but definitely I would think you just try and avoid that standard rush hour ideas of, you know, into the city and out of the city, I'm guessing. [00:46:07.200] - Tamara Gruber And was your shuttle like one of the big charter busses or more of like a sprinter and yet more sprinter than the first one? When we arrived, we were the only ones. So I don't know how this. Yeah. So I don't know how they time the I don't know how they manage the pickups. Like, I don't know if we just got lucky randomly. I don't think they booked it as a private, you know, private experience. So but on the way home there were two other, we were the third and we're the last pick up. [00:46:36.690] - Kim Tate And but thankfully there was a nice couple on because Mia and I both have motion sickness issues and they were sitting in the front and I was like, oh, I didn't even realize because we were the only ones on the way there. I hadn't realized it wasn't going to be a private thing. And so I asked the driver and he's like, well, you should have made a request for, you know, that you needed to sit in the front. [00:46:53.970] - Kim Tate And he's like, we have this one front seat. And the next would be right next to the two people for two hour trip because it was like a three seat, like the front seat, three seats. Does that make sense? And so I just spoke up and asked the couple. I was like, you know, do you guys need to sit in the front by any chance? I was like, my daughter has bad motions. And they were like, oh, no problem. [00:47:12.840] - Kim Tate And they move back one. So thank goodness it wasn't an issue. [00:47:15.870] - Tamara Gruber That's good, because the one time that I took one of those shuttles, I thought we were all set because they picked us up and like the village where where we were and we were like the first ones on. So we sat right in the front. And then it's like and now we're going over here where you're getting on like the real shuttle, you know? And so they brought us to another meeting place and then we were the last ones. And so we were literally like against the back wall. [00:47:40.140] - Tamara Gruber And and we were jammed in, like the whole thing was full. And we're Hannah and I were just we felt terrible the whole time. [00:47:46.170] - Kim Tate Yeah. I have a feeling that it you know, you could get the bad luck of the draw and be could get sixteen passengers, I'm thinking. But we didn't have that experience. So that wasn't one of the big, big ones. It definitely was a sprinter van, but still it's for sprinter. So you know, and didn't think about the option of is always renting a car but yeah. You don't really need it when you're there say probably especially these days when you're paying so much for cars. [00:48:13.230] - Kim Tate And can I just mention, like, the whole car rental thing, because I know we've talked about it off and on like one hand and I just flew to California, we waited in line to pick up our rental car because there was remember how we've talked about how, like, you know, if you're Emerald Club or whatever, like you, you don't have to you can, like, bypass the line. There was no there was no bypass. [00:48:31.290] - Tamara Gruber It was like the desks were closed and it was like go to the garage. And then there's just like one line in front of, like a little not even a kiosk, but like a podium in the garage. And there was shows they were so short staffed. So it's again, it's another thing we're like a lot of people got laid off and it's taken a while to like hire people back and train them up and everything. And so we waited in that line for definitely over an hour. [00:48:53.850] - Tamara Gruber And I talked to a friend of mine that rented a car in Savannah. She flew down, I think it was either Savannah or Charleston. And she waited in line for over two hours. Oh, my goodness, to pick up the car. [00:49:05.160] - Kim Tate That's horrible. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. So just something to build in your stomach. Exactly. Yeah. Is be prepared for that. [00:49:13.170] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I, I'm really glad I decided to drive from like San Francisco to L.A., L.A. to California to Arizona, renting a car each time. [00:49:22.140] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Originally I was thinking, oh I'll just fly, fly. But I'm like, oh it's going to be such a pain. And what if they don't have car, you know, like just I want to deal with all the hassles. And then I was so relieved. [00:49:31.320] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that sounds dreadful. I'm you know, I'm wondering what we'll have because that was one of the reasons I was looking forward to our our rental was oh it's you know, I don't know if we're alema inside or whichever one it is. And you can get the skip the line if you do the advance check. And so be interesting to see at LAX if they have it staffed that way better, I don't know. [00:49:53.860] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, yeah. I mean it's hopefully better, but everything you know kind of has this. [00:49:59.520] - Kim Tate Yeah. Well we've seen what's happening also with flights and everything. I know one of our mutual friends, Leslie, she's stuck in Connecticut for an extra two days because Southwest just canceled a bunch of flights, including the one they were supposed to be on south of the flight on me like I was before the flight. And I spent my entire tour of University of Arizona walking around in like 110 degree heat, trying to figure out how I was going to get from Arizona to Houston in that afternoon. [00:50:27.750] - Kim Tate So, yeah, super stressful, like it's in Southwest has been doing this a lot. [00:50:32.580] - Kim Tate I think this is definitely a summer where everyone the demand is just higher than what the capacity the work capacity is right now. So if you do not already have vacation plans, I would definitely recommend a road trip, you know, near you in your own car. [00:50:49.860] - Tamara Gruber Well, it's funny. I read an article recently that American was having people volunteer to work in the in the airport. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, who wants to do that? You know, like to be the one that's maybe like getting yelled at or something. But I think they're more like directing people to different places. But yeah, they're like asking office workers to come volunteer to work for jobs and like, that's that's a that's a huge ask. [00:51:16.140] - Tamara Gruber Like, why are you not paying that? They're not. I don't know. I understand. Like, I know. And they got bailed out. So it's like they don't have the funds. Yeah. And then I've also seen and hear I've heard a lot of people complaining about cleanliness in hotel rooms. I don't know what your experience has been, but they're saying that, you know, everyone's saying they're up to the standar

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192 Off-The-Beaten-Path Maine

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 29, 2021 61:36

This week we dive into Tamara's recent Maine road trip and explore how to get off-the-beaten path in the Downeast Acadia and Maine Highlands regions. ABOUT SAFE TRAVELS KIT Our sponsor this week is Safe Travels Kit. Founded by New York fashion executive and avid globetrotter, Adriana Martone, the Safe Travels Kit is a patent pending, first-to-market travel and airline bedding kit that launched in December 2020. After a horrific experience with a dirty airplane seat, Adriana thought something more needed to be done to create more sanitary, comfortable travel experiences for all. Hence, the Safe Travels Kit brand was born. Now, when travelers set off on a vacation or business trip, instead of worrying about encountering unsanitary surroundings, they can journey in comfort and serenity, resting on the Safe Travels Kit super-soft seat covers and pillowcases, made from high-tech fabric that prevents germs from penetrating. Each kit costs $39.95 and contains: One lightweight, washable, compact travel pouch (weighs .7 ounces) one seat cover that fits planes (economy and business class seats), trains, and cars; One standard size pillow case (made of the same material as the seat cover); 10 individually wrapped sanitising wipes; and One surgical face mask. How to Get Off-the-Beaten Path in Maine Read Tamara's post on 7 must-try adventures in the Maine Highlands Read Tamara's post on things to do near Acadia National Park Read Tamara's Maine road trip itinerary When visiting Acadia National Park, visit the Schoodic Peninsula and the Schoodic section of Acadia National Park. You will not find the crowds that are on Mount Desert Island. If you do stay in Bar Harbor and visit Acadia National Park to see Cadillac Mountain, you do need reservations to drive up the mountain at sunrise. Tamara stayed in Winter Harbor, which is very close to the Schoodic section of Acadia National Park and you can take a ferry to Bar Harbor. Visiting Schoodic Point is nice at high tide when the waves crash against the rocks. When visiting less touristy towns, be prepared to be flexible and patient when eating out and recognize that many restaurants close by 8pm. Fogtown Brewing in Ellsworth is a great stop at the beginning of the trip. Drive the Schoodic National Scenic Byway east of Ellsworth and stop for KidsQuest interactive learning activities along the way. Renting a cottage or vacation home is a good option for families. Tamara stayed at MainStay Cottages & RV Park in Winter Harbor. You can take a puffin boat tour from Winter Harbor or Milbridge. Many trails in Schoodic are family friendly including the Alder Trail. Make sure to have lunch at Lunch on the Wharf in Corea. The oldest winery in Maine is Bartlett Maine Estate Winery, which is also a distillery. You can take a puffin tour from Milbridge with Robertson's Sea Tours and Adventures. Have a picnic at McClellan Park in Milbridge with great water views. Hazel with Maine Outdoor School leads guided hikes and paddles to help you find new places and learn more about the area. Be prepared for flies, mosquitos and ticks when you are hiking or spending a lot of time outside. You can spray your clothing and gear/shoes before you go outside. Lubec is the easternmost town in the USA and people like to visit West Quoddy head Lighthouse for sunrise. When the border is open you can visit Campobello island where the Roosevelt's summer home was and they have fun events like Tea with Eleanor. You must stop at Monica's Chocolates when in Lubec. Bangor is a nice small city with a vibrant downtown and great history and architecture. The Bangor Historical Society offers walking tours to learn more about the history of the town and the region. The Hollywood Casino Hotel is a good place to stay in Bangor even if you aren't interested in gambling. The Hirundo Wildlife Refuge is located close to Bangor and has good walking and hiking trails, many of which are wheelchair or stroller accessible. You can also borrow canoes or kayaks for free. The Orono Bog Boardwalk is also a nice and easy trail for families Tamara stayed at the New England Outdoor Center (NEOC) on Millinocket Lake, which offers cabins and lodges to rent. At NEOC you can borrow canoes, kayaks, and paddleboards as well as rent fat tire bikes or take a wildlife tour. From Millinocket Lake, drive the Katahdin Woods & Waters National Scenic Byway to the town of Patten. Tamara stayed at Shin Pond Village near Patten, which also offers both cabins and camp or RV sites. Shin Pond Village rents out Polaris side-by-side vehicles and there are hundreds of miles of trails to explore nearby. Katahdin Woods & Waters National Monument is a new national monument that is also a Dark Sky Sanctuary. There are not any facilities like a visitor's center or bathrooms, but it is perfect for backcountry camping, hiking, and star gazing. For more information on star parties and events, visit Dark Sky Maine and Friends of Katahdin Woods & Waters. Baxter State Park is very popular, especially in the southern entrance. Parking reservations are required for trails that lead to Mt. Katahdin. Sandy Stream pond is very popular early in the morning for moose and wildlife viewing. Driving all the way through the park is on a gravel road and it could take 3-4 hours to drive through the entire park. Shin Pond Village is close to the northern entrance to Baxter State Park. From there, the South Branch Pond area offers many hiking trails and you can also rent canoes. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.120] - Kim Tate From Rocky Coasts to Mountain Lakes, today, we're talking about Maine. [00:00:16.460] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.700] - Tamara Gruber Today's episode is brought to us by Safe Travels, Kit, Safe Travels Kit is a travel and airline bedding kit that helps travelers create a more sanitary, comfortable travel experience. Now, when travelers set off on a vacation or business trip, instead of worrying about encountering unsanitary surroundings, they can journey in comfort and serenity, resting on the safe travels, super safe seat covers and pillowcases made from high-tech fabric that prevents germs from penetrating. You can purchase one for your upcoming travel safetravels.com or on Amazon or at many airport Brookstone locations. [00:01:02.750] - Tamara Gruber So, Kim, we've been talking about Safe Travels Kit for a little bit now. And, you know, I was just on this road trip that we're going to talk about on this episode, and it made me think about the number of times that I've rented cars and maybe from, like, budget kind of places. and I've gotten in and be like kind of smells in here, like what's been going on in here. And so I was thinking you could put the seat cover on your rental car probably as well. [00:01:28.730] - Kim Tate Yeah, of course. I'll never forget that time that we rented a car. And I remember it was pretty stinky, smelly. I don't remember where we were, but for some reason it stayed in my head. [00:01:38.640] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, we had that. I feel like we took out the like they had they had one of those that room fresheners, like a car freshener, air fresheners. Oh, that's in there. And we took it out and then we realized why it was in there. [00:01:50.810] - Kim Tate Like, OK, it needs to be here. Yeah. Especially now, you know, I, I saw somebody who's a frequent traveler sharing that he was rented a 2018 vehicle recently at the rental car lot. The rental cars are not many left. So there's getting whatever they can. So now what am I going to get when I go to California? [00:02:14.750] Yeah, well, I'm bringing I'm packing my Safe Travels Kit, so I will have it for the plane and I'll have another rental car, so and I'll have an extra pillowcase. [00:02:26.390] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's a long flight for you. You guys might try to, you know, use the time on the plane wisely and [00:02:32.600] Yeah, I think actually my time on the plane is going to be writing about Maine. [00:02:37.280] - Kim Tate Oh nice. That's good. Well we will jump right in then and get talking about your trip to Maine, because I was I have to admit, I was so jealous and wished I was there with you, especially because it was a solo trip for you. And I was thinking, man, I could have just flown out there and, you know, spent some time. We could have had our our fun little hiking and, you know, Maine time together. [00:02:57.380] - Kim Tate But it seems like you had a lot of fun. You were definitely ready to get back to your family, but you were gone for a while. So we're going to jump right in and talk all about your your time exploring, you know, all the rocky coasts and lighthouses all the way to the lakes. And I know you saw a few moose, so we'll talk about that. [00:03:13.190] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about you, too, especially since, you know, two summers ago we went to some of these areas, not the same exact area, but similar. And so I was definitely I was missing you and thinking of you. But, yeah, I spent I think it was about twelve days in Maine, which is such a long trip. But the state is so huge, you know, like people tend to think of more of the the Maine beaches, which is kind of like the southern coast. [00:03:39.620] - Tamara Gruber And then there's the Portland, of course, and then like the mid coast. And then they kind of look at Acadia National Park is super popular. But to go beyond that is, you know, much more off the beaten path. And so I made my way up the Maine coast and maybe we'll talk about that actually in a different episode, because I think if I covered all twelve days, it would be like way too much. [00:04:01.160] - Tamara Gruber But I was working with two different tourism boards. They had hired me to do a campaign with them because they're trying to say, hey, there is so much more to Maine than just, you know, these parts that people tend to gravitate towards. And so I was working with Downeast Acadia Regional Tourism, which is kind of the region from Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park, all the way to the the Canadian border along the coast and then the Maine Highlands, which is Bangor, and then up into kind of that Moosehead Lake area that we've been before and Baxter State Park and that, you know, mountains and lakes type of area. [00:04:38.540] - Tamara Gruber So it's a lot to cover. When I was driving along and meeting and talking to different people, I mean, one thing about traveling by yourself is I become a little bit more extroverted. I mean, there's no one else to talk to you. Right. And it's really nice because you get to, like, make more conversation with locals. And and there were hardly any visitors at the time, which is great. So I was really able to kind of get a sense of the real thing. [00:05:02.180] - Tamara Gruber But somebody was saying, like just one county in Maine is bigger than Connecticut, I'm sorry, Connecticut and Rhode Island combined. So it's like people just don't understand the scale. Like they get calls like, you know, places to stay and things like that. They get called. They're like, well, we're going to do like a day trip to, you know, they'll name a place I like, you realize it's like a five hour drive away, you know? [00:05:22.230] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah. So it is a really big state. There's a lot to cover. But I think what I did with this road trip was kind of a little bit like the best of both worlds, because everyone loves that quintessential rocky coast with the lighthouses and the lobster and all that. But then, you know, the idea of seeing moose and getting out and hiking and seeing the lakes and the rivers like, you know, that is really appealing too. [00:05:48.240] - Tamara Gruber And so I feel like for especially for this summer, it's going to be a great trip for people to do because you are trying to be outside still, but you're also trying to get away from people. And we've talked about before the summer is going to be really, you know, it's going to be really busy. Yeah, especially in national parks. And I saw a headline when I was there saying that Acadia is expecting record breaking numbers this summer. [00:06:12.780] - Tamara Gruber I think that record breaking last summer and they expect to break that again this summer and they are requiring reservations. If you want to drive to the top of Cadillac Mountain and see the sunrise there, which is a very popular thing to do. So it's something you where again, like you really have to plan ahead. You don't really expect that as much on the East Coast as much as you might. And like Zion and, you know, some of the other parks where it's a little bit more known that you might need to take like shuttles and reservations and things. [00:06:40.510] - Tamara Gruber So I really focused on areas outside of that. So I guess I'll just kind of start off with talking about what I what I did on the trip. And I did stay one night in Bar Harbor and that was at a glamping resort that I've just wanted to check out on my own. And that was like before I started this campaign portion of the trip. And so, you know, if you do want to start in Bar Harbor, that's fine. [00:07:03.840] - Tamara Gruber And I think what Acadia National Park is most well known for is like the town of Bar Harbor and then the part of the park that is on this island called Mount Desert Island. And so that's where you're going to find the popular Cadillac Mountain and Jordan Pond and the Beehive Trail, things like that. But there are actually two other parts of the park in different locations and no one really goes to those. So you can still see some of the really beautiful parts of like why this is a national park without all of those crowds. [00:07:33.610] - Tamara Gruber And so I stayed in a town called Winter Harbor, which is kind of just across the the bay or, you know, as you would imagine, like, you know, different harbors. And I was maybe five minutes outside of a section of the park that's called this Schoodic section of Acadia National Park, because it's on the Schoodic Peninsula, because if you think about the coast of Maine, it's kind of like all these fingers coming down. There's all these peninsulas coming off of the coast, which is why you have all that great coastline. [00:08:01.290] - Tamara Gruber And so this is just, you know, right across there is actually right next to where I stayed. You could take a ferry that would bring you over to Bar Harbor, but the area, the Schoodic section of the park was empty. I went on a Friday night, my first time there, a Friday night for sunset. And you think, oh, it's going to be busier. There is no one on the right like the whole time. [00:08:21.870] - Tamara Gruber I think it's of maybe a 14 mile loop. You know, I should probably look that up, but it's a one way loop through the park with different viewpoints and different trails and things that you can stop at. And the end point is called Schoodic Point. And that's where, especially at high tide, the waves are crashing on the rocky shoreline and the sunset is like, you know, going down right over there. So it's a popular spot to go for sunset. [00:08:46.530] - Tamara Gruber And I saw, I think, to other people when I was there. Wow. Yeah, it was amazing and great. It's early June, but still it was like Friday. It was a weekend, you know. Yeah. So it was really it was it was quiet. So if you want to kind of get all of that national park ness with your. Yeah. Beautiful coastline and hikes and mountains and all that, without the crowds, you just have to go across over to this peninsula part of it. [00:09:13.390] - Kim Tate So that's a great tip. I think that's what people need to be looking for, especially I think this is the last year that we'll have a lot of because there's even though international is coming back, people I think are still staying domestic. And so all those people who are eager to travel are all looking. And I've seen Maine coming up quite a bit. It's kind of it's kind of been funny. [00:09:32.010] - Tamara Gruber So I have to yeah. I think it's you know, maybe people are thinking about alternatives to like the Southwest, knowing it's going to be high and. Yeah, maybe alternatives for some of the the other Western. Well, I think yeah. [00:09:44.970] - Kim Tate I think people forget that Maine is up there and it offers I mean, it's kind of like they think of New England and they forget about everything else. That's like even upper state New York and, you know, all of that. They kind of forget that there's all that beautiful nature up there. [00:09:59.130] - Tamara Gruber And yeah. Yeah. And I will say, like, last summer I went to the Adirondacks and granted it was in the middle of summer, but it was you know, things are really crowded like there. You really have to get to trailheads by six a.m. and, you know, expect like you might have trouble parking and all that and. I just don't see that in this part of these parts of Maine that I'm going to talk about, it is, you know, it is further, but if you're flying, you can fly into Bangor and then everything like from Bangor to Acadia is like an hour and 15 minutes. [00:10:31.880] - Tamara Gruber And then from Bangor up to like where I was on Millinocket Lake. And like some of the Highlands area is, again, like an hour and a half, you know. So it's really. Yeah, you can even use that as a, you know, like a home base and do like a hub and spoke kind of trips you wanted to as well. So it's really and from it is it is up there. But even from Boston, like if you drove highway and not coast, you can get up there in like five hours. [00:10:59.540] - Tamara Gruber So, you know, it's really not too bad. But again, I will say, though, the one thing to think about is that it is a little bit further out. And so you're not going to find all of the same tourist infrastructure that you find like a little bit further south or in some of the towns like Kennebunkport or Portland or whatever. And just I think everywhere is kind of experiencing a bit of a labor shortage right now. [00:11:23.480] - Tamara Gruber But they're definitely seeing that in Maine, too, and places trying to get staffed up. And so you see more of, you know, there's, you know, maybe going to be a slower service at some of the restaurants or shorter hours or just the fact that when you're in some of these towns, there might only be two or three options. And what I found is that some of them close early, actually, most of them close early because it's just it's more of a you get up early and go to bed early kind of place than me, which is a night owl. [00:11:53.360] - Tamara Gruber You know, I think when I was working with the person, the tourism board, I was like, yeah, dinner at around 7:00, you know, sounds good. And she's like, oh, I could tell you're not a morning person. Oh really? I thought that was still kind of early, but I found out, like, I would go, like, try to take sunset pictures and then go have dinner afterwards and no, no, no places close at 8. [00:12:12.440] - Kim Tate So it's like that's that's surprisingly enough. [00:12:15.260] - Kim Tate When we were in Rocky Mountain National Park, which is Estes Park is right there, they were the same thing. It was this small mountain town and everything closed to eat. It was so weird. You know, we had trouble sometimes, I mean, because it was the middle peak, July, middle of summer and. Right. [00:12:29.790] - Tamara Gruber You have a lot of sunlight. You want to be out. Yeah. Stuff. [00:12:32.060] - Kim Tate Right, exactly. Yeah. [00:12:33.740] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Well, let me I'll get into my trip a little bit and kind of give some details for people that want to plan some of their own. So my first stop was in the town of Ellsworth, which is kind of right above Bar Harbor, and it's a little downtown that has like some different brewing places. And I went mean, is like big with their craft beer scene. They're known for lobster, but they're also big blueberries. There's certain things you got to try. [00:12:57.530] - Tamara Gruber So I went to this place called Town Brewing and that they had like an outdoor like food truck and beer garden kind of place. So, you know, it was really cool. And then I drove it was a lot of scenic byway. So I drove this Greek National Scenic Byway down. Like I said, this peninsula to this town of Winter Harbor. And again, you're not going to find the same like hotels and things they're going to find. [00:13:21.380] - Tamara Gruber And Bar Harbor, there is a couple of inns, there's a couple bed and breakfasts. But if you're going as a family, you're probably better off trying to look for like a cottage rental of some sort. And I definitely saw lots of signs for those. And some of them are gorgeous. So I think that that's probably a better choice. I stayed at a place called Mainstay Cottages and RV Park, and I thought it was going to be kind of like your traditional RV park. [00:13:46.130] - Tamara Gruber It was not. It was so nice. It was this piece of land right on the water. So your RV sites are like really overlooking the water. But there's only like 10 RV sites. And they were kind of to one side and the other side where cottages and I stayed in what was the original building there, which is a boat house. So it's like, you know, I walked down to the water, up a little ramp to my boat house. [00:14:07.970] - Tamara Gruber That's like sitting over the water. So amazing, like sunset views. It was just a little like one bedroom cottage, but it had this back deck, the where you could just sit and watch the boats and watch the sunset. [00:14:21.050] - Kim Tate And yeah, it was I would say that I remember that about Maine having the most amazing sunsets and the stuff you were sharing, it just reinforced that, that it's just amazing the colors that their skies get. [00:14:34.640] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Especially because a lot of it was kind of dreary when I was there during the day. And then it would surprise me at night. I'm like, yes, thank you. You know, so that was a really nice place to stay, like as a home base, because you literally could walk to the to the ferry that would go to Bar Harbor right there. There was also a little boat tour that went out that did a puffin tour, I think it was called Acadian Puffins. [00:14:57.560] - Tamara Gruber So you could take a boat tour to go to an island off of a wildlife refuge where they've brought back the North Atlantic puffins. And so I was supposed to do that actually in a different town. And it got canceled because of high seas, but luckily earlier in my trip when I was in Booth Bay Harbor, I was able to do a similar trip. [00:15:22.500] - Tamara Gruber But the thing about like Booth Bay is a bigger boat, more like a whale watching boat, like multi-tier. And so I have a feeling they don't get quite as close. Like maybe these boats were smaller. But the other thing to worry about is like if it is rough seas and you're on a small boat, you're going to feel it a lot more, you know. So but, you know, that's definitely a neat thing to do because, I mean, I've been fortunate enough to see them in Iceland, but it's a very unique thing to get to do and see. [00:15:49.890] - Tamara Gruber And I think most people don't realize that puffins are actually really small. They're smaller than seabirds. [00:15:55.050] - Kim Tate So they're very tiny. [00:15:56.740] - Tamara Gruber Yes. You really it's hard to get a good view of them. I think people really expect you see the pictures and you're like, oh, that's what I'm going to see. I'm like, no, I had this amazing zoom camera and I could still only get so close. So, you need to bring binoculars. [00:16:12.420] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. We went whale watching in, you know, on the Pacific Coast, surprisingly, and there's a wildlife refuge and they have some puffins and we actually got to see puffins out here. And it was it was kind of crazy because they seem so bright and like when you see them on rocks and in people's photos because they do zoom in, you don't realize how small they are. And you'd have to be really close to be able to even get that clear vision of their beak and all that beautiful coloring they have. [00:16:40.260] - Kim Tate And so, yeah, I know what you mean by that, but they're so cute. They are. They're adorable. [00:16:45.150] - Tamara Gruber And we mostly saw them like on the water when I took that trip. But there is a place in this downeast region that you have to book it in advance, but it's like a small boat. And so it depends on the weather. But they'll take some people out to the island and you can stay there and like, stand in the bird blind, you know, like the box where you are kind of covered. You just watch them. So there are if you're really into it, there are things to do like. [00:17:12.590] - Tamara Gruber But where I stayed, like as I said, I was like five minutes from the entrance to that section of Acadia National Park, there was a place where you could rent kayaks there. There was a place where you could rent bikes because a lot of people just bike into the park and loop that way, which is a great option. So it's definitely a place where you could stay for a few days and just do there's so many different like hiking trails and things to do. [00:17:36.150] - Tamara Gruber So like, you know, there's some in the park, but then there's all these different, like preserves and the national wildlife preserves, other types of preserves like around. And a lot of them have kids activities like there's this thing called Kids Quest where they're like each place has like different like learning opportunities for kids, like a train station. So this is where we you learn about seaweed, this is where you learn about tides, you know, so there's things like that that you can do if you have younger kids. [00:18:02.020] - Tamara Gruber Also, you know, I spent pretty much like my first day really exploring the park. And I did a hike, like up to the top of a mountain. And the hikes there are not super long. I mean, you can do kind of a longer ridge, not real ridge, but, you know, you could do like a longer one. But most of the hikes are not too long and not too steep. I did come down one that was like a little bit steeper and not as clearly marked. [00:18:28.140] - Tamara Gruber But I think for families, if you could do like this Alder Trail and I will put this all in the post that will be published by the time this episode comes out. So, like, everybody can see the details. But I also somebody told me that at low tide you can walk out to this little island that's off the coast of the park and sometimes the harbor seals will hang out there. So I checked to see like what time low tide was going to be. [00:18:52.530] - Tamara Gruber And I made sure I went before, like, the actual low tide, you know, so I would have time to be there and get back before, you know, the water would start coming back in. Unfortunately, I didn't see any seals, but like that, you know, that was a neat kind of thing. Like you're walking on the ocean floor kind of thing. Yeah. And then just you did the loop, went out to see the waves crashing and, you know, so it's just it's pretty. [00:19:15.390] - Tamara Gruber If you like a rocky coast, you will definitely get your fill. [00:19:20.130] - Kim Tate Yeah, that sounds amazing. I'm impressed with Maine even from my one trip. I think it's really a place if you're if you're looking for like a relaxing, outdoorsy, just kind of laid back vacation. I think Maine is definitely a good place to look for that. [00:19:34.410] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And like I said, there's a lot of, like, little charming things like one of the I think that day I left the park and I went to have a late lunch that someone told me about. Again, some of these things like you need like a local will tell you that because they're not very well promoted or, you know, talked about even within the park, there's a place that was called like Ravens Nest. And it's not even on the list, like it's not even on the park map. [00:20:01.320] - Tamara Gruber But like all the locals will tell you, oh, you got to go to these cliffs, you know, so stuff like that. So I talked to actually the person that was she owned the the property where I was staying. And she recommended going to this little fishing village of Corea or. Actually, I think it's Korea, but with a C and there is like a food truck kind of thing there, but lunch on the wharf and it's only open in the summer and it's only open like from 11:00 to three and not open on Sundays. [00:20:28.550] - Tamara Gruber So that kind of thing, like where you kind of have to know about it to go, but they have lobster rolls and all that, and you're right on the water. And, you know, there are places like that and like further south in Maine that people will line up for for like an hour, you know, but they're like it was just so nice, you know, like I sat just looking at the boats, because I can't even tell you how many harbors there are, because all these little coves and, you know, they're just filled with lobstering boats and fishing boats and they're just bobbing there. [00:20:57.440] - Tamara Gruber And all along the the pier, as you just see, you know, all the lobster traps and you see the bouys and the ropes. And it's just it's so classic. It's so classic, like Maine and New England. So it's like, I don't know, it just kind of, you know that expression like fills your bucket, just kind of like your bucket with like all these, like, good sites that you wanted to see when you came to Maine. [00:21:18.470] - Tamara Gruber And it's like everywhere you turn is there there's another lighthouse, you know, like it's just it's so quaint. [00:21:24.440] - Kim Tate Yeah. Well, I was definitely jealous of all the lobster rolls and stuff you were having, so I definitely think that's something people think about. So the food sounds like it's it's definitely not to be missed when you're on a trip there. [00:21:37.080] - Tamara Gruber I came home and Glenn was like, what would you want for dinner? And I'm like, I think pasta, a chicken, I had a lot of seafood. And then when I was like further north, you know, it was like much more casual. So like I had a lot of fried stuff there. So I kind of just want, good. You know, like, give me salad, you know, that kind of stuff. [00:21:56.360] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot of other things, like there's some cute farms like organic farms you can stop at. There's a couple of wineries surprisingly, but they specialize in fruit wine. But I did visit the one that was the oldest in Maine. It's called Bartlett Maine Estate Winery. So it's a distillery too. So I guess, you know, you can maybe find your your drink in one of those, too. So, you know, there's other things that you can do. [00:22:20.210] - Tamara Gruber It's not just about like hiking and stuff like that, but yeah, there's just so many good places. So after I stayed in Winter Harbor, I went over, I kind of made my way east to the town of Machias. But first I stopped in this town called Milbridge. And there were a couple of things that I think of note there that I would want to mention. And one is that you can do a puffin tour from there with Robertson seatours and Adventures. [00:22:48.740] - Tamara Gruber That's the one that I was supposed to do, but unfortunately got canceled. But there's some really nice parks around there, too. So I went to this park called McClellan Park. It's a state I don't actually I don't know if it's State Park. I think it's just a local town park. So you're driving, like, down this peninsula and you're like, oh, is this going to be worth it? And then you turn into this park and it's just, you know, you're driving through the woods, really bumpy little road. [00:23:13.580] - Tamara Gruber Follow the sign to the picnic area. I get out of the car at the picnic area and it's like one table in the middle of like a grassy kind of field surrounded by trees. And I'm like, why am I here? You know? And then I realized then I realized there was like this little path. And so I follow this path. And then you're on these gorgeous, like rock. I wouldn't call them cliffs, but like, you know, these big boulders along the coast with picnic tables there. [00:23:37.640] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, OK, I get it now. It's gorgeous. And if this was at home, there would be so many other people there, you know, you'd have to stake out your spot. All that there was I saw, like in the distance one other person, you know, so you could just go and have this amazing picnic with a wonderful view. And I feel like, you know, that's that's what it was about. It was just about like amazing views and stuff like that. [00:24:00.680] - Tamara Gruber But without the people, I'm going to sound like very like people adverse. But, you know, like it can get crowded in places. And it's just so nice to find those places that are still so great that are undiscovered somewhat, you know. [00:24:13.130] - Kim Tate Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I think it's it's kind of interesting that, like you said, that there are those spaces still and it's hard to know, like, as you know, people like you and I who shared travel destinations. And I think we need to all be mindful of looking for those little more. I mean, beautiful places certainly don't just end at the border of a national park, although sometimes they can. But, you know, it can be quite beautiful anywhere you go. [00:24:41.890] - Kim Tate Yeah. And in talking to the locals, they're kind of like, well, we know we want people to come in, don't have to change. So it's still in that little bit of, you know, back and forth thing. But apparently, like during the pandemic, people have been buying land up there, like sight unseen, paying cash, just like grabbing up land. So they're kind of like what is going to happen after they have a winter to up here, because that is a very different experience. [00:25:10.760] - Tamara Gruber So we'll see. They're a little worried about, like, you know, driving up the cost of land and rent. And things like that, but we'll see, you know, like it might really transform, you know, so that there becomes a bit more of an infrastructure. But I will say, like, you know, you do have to go with expectations, like I ate at this one place called Saltbox in Winter Harbor that was, you know, a very nice restaurant, you know, wonderful food. [00:25:33.670] - Tamara Gruber Like, you know, what you would expect from, like a fine dining type of experience. But mostly it is like a family home cooking kind of places, you know, so you just have the right expectations. It's not like there's anything wrong with that. But, you know, you're not going just a lot of heavy, rich food over time. [00:25:51.500] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, yeah. Lots of fresh fish and stuff, though. The other thing that I would really recommend, especially for families, I think is I did a guided hike with Hazel from Maine Outdoor School, and she's like an outdoor educator. She's, you know, she's from Maine. She's very passionate about it. But she knows so much like about the area, but also about like the, you know, all of the plants and all the trees and all the the birds and, you know, like everything that you're going through. [00:26:22.600] - Tamara Gruber So I feel like she could do something that would really engage kids. She's used to doing like kids programs, too. So she knows how to be very engaging with kids and, you know, teach you a lot, but then maybe bring you places that you may not have found on your own. And, you know, one of the things she offered to me was to do like an evening paddle, like where you could see wildlife and stuff. [00:26:43.030] - Tamara Gruber And we didn't do that just because of my schedule. But that would be something other. I'll just make sure you bring, like, proper bug gear if you're going to do that. Yeah, I should I should mention that, like, yeah, May and June are usually like black fly season in Maine but I got really lucky and I did not get bothered by them at all. And even the mosquitoes, which they're always there's like t shirts that are like the state bird is, you know, mosquito. [00:27:08.410] - Kim Tate Yeah. I remember having to fight with mosquitoes when we were there. [00:27:12.160] - Tamara Gruber So I didn't have too much of a problem with that either. I mean obviously I put on bug spray the things that drove me a little bit crazy a couple times were like those no see ums. [00:27:20.110] - Kim Tate Oh yeah. Those little gnat biters. [00:27:22.090] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Because they're the ones that just drive you insane. Yeah. But it was only a couple of times and like usually if you're moving it was fine. And they say like after like mid-July somebody said that's like the third thunderstorm in July is when the flies go. I love these like old time. [00:27:39.820] - Kim Tate Like the Farmer's Almanac type. Yeah that's right. Yeah. What about I mean another thing does just mention that, you know, we don't deal with as much out here, but pretty soon the whole US is going to have to deal with it. Just being aware of ticks and Lyme disease when you're out hiking and checking yourself for that. Right. [00:27:54.550] - Tamara Gruber Ticks are a huge problem. And I actually I'm a little bit worried that they're going to be worse this year just because, like some people that I know that are spending a lot of time outdoors are finding them already. I actually when I did the glamping at Terramor in Bar Harbor, I sat outside by the fire for a while and then it started to rain. I had a blanket wrapped around me because it was kind of cold. And when I came in, I, like put the blanket out just to look at it. [00:28:16.570] - Tamara Gruber And I found a tick on it and I was like freaking out. You know, I flushed it like it wasn't on me. I did it had a decent mirror. I did like a good tick check, but I definitely think, like, yes, spray your gear. There's some stuff I can link to it on our show. Notes that you can spray like your backpack and your shoes and things with before you like, not, you know, like spray it, not when you're in it. [00:28:38.350] - Tamara Gruber And then just, you know, use some good bug spray and do good checks and wear it and all that kind of stuff. But Hannah's going back to camp this summer in Maine, and I've already told her, like, OK, you really have to be good about this. [00:28:49.270] - Kim Tate You know, I think wearing the hats, the big one is just getting in. Your hair is the other. [00:28:52.960] - Tamara Gruber Apparently, they climb up, you see, like a lot of times because it's like you're going through the tall grasses and they grab on your leg, they grab on to like your shoes and your legs. And that's why some people will tuck their socks, like, in to their socks and then, you know, so then they crawl up and they look for like warm areas, like armpits and stuff like that. So, yeah, I mean, there's plenty of stuff online to tell you, like what to do about it. [00:29:17.470] - Kim Tate Yeah. I don't want it to discourage people. I mean, everyone is dealing with that, but it's just something like for me, I'm not so used to it out here in the West Coast. So it's definitely something to be mindful about. I think Kansas I remember my mom checking me when I were I would play in the woods. [00:29:32.200] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, when I grew up, we we would get them a lot. And it didn't figure out the same way because there wasn't that disease associated with it, you know. Yeah. So yeah. So it is definitely, you know, something to stay aware of. But luckily that was my only encounter with that, you know. And I did keep checking all throughout. [00:29:51.910] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah. Just something to be mindful of for people I don't want. Sorry to go off on that side tangent, but I think it's important to just know since we are talking about it as a destination. [00:30:01.720] - Tamara Gruber Definitely. So from there I made my way to this town of Machias, which is like a little bit larger of a town. And there's some other things you can do if you did want to like kind of base there for a little bit. There's Roque Bluffs. State Park has a nice sand beach, and I think nearby there's like Jenkins' Beach, which is more like ground, colorful pebbles, but there aren't as many like beach type of places, you know in Maine, because it's at least in that section, because it's more rocky coast. [00:30:27.500] - Tamara Gruber So it's nice when you can find, you know, a real beach to, like, hang out on or sabayon. In the town of Machias, there's a nice, like waterfall in the center of town. But I will say, like, there's not again, there's not a lot when it comes to restaurants. And I think there's two or three more motel kind of places. I think a couple of them have been renovated, you know, so that they look, you know, newer. [00:30:52.130] - Tamara Gruber But it is still that kind of accommodation unless you would want to rent a cabin. But I actually stayed at a gorgeous place. It was called the Inn at Schoppee Farm. So it was a farmhouse that they've converted into an inn. And I stayed in the river room, which was on the first floor. I think the other rooms are on the second floor. And it was gorgeous, like the person the people that run. [00:31:18.190] - Tamara Gruber It's like a young couple clearly have such nice design style because it felt like it felt like it was from like a magazine or a decor show because it was just very simple, like farmhouse kind of, you know, like white linens, like the wide plank floors, the exposed beams in the ceiling. There's like old little table, but just with a like a vase of like these simple yellow flowers. So it's just like wood and white and a little splash of yellow. [00:31:45.140] - Tamara Gruber And it was just it was beautiful and it's right on the river. It's accessible to like this path that's used for like biking or running or ATVs or stuff like that. So and it's just really great outside of town. So that was really like a wonderful farm. I don't know if you'd call it like a farm stay because there weren't like animals and things around, but it was it had that feel. But I think, you know, unless you're going to take a couple of rooms, it's going to be better for like a couple than a family. [00:32:12.010] - Kim Tate Makes sense. [00:32:13.640] - Tamara Gruber And then the next day, I decided I was going to drive all the way out to the Canadian border, the town of Lubec, because it is everyone kept telling me, you got to go. It's such a cute town. And I realized I was only like forty-five minutes away. And I'm like, how do I come this far and not make it go all the way, you know? So I was like, you know, I'm just going to get up early one day and do it. [00:32:36.710] - Tamara Gruber Although I will say I did not get up as early as some people do, because the thing to do in Lubec is there's this really cute, like red and white striped light House called the West Quoddy head light. And it is the, you know, the easternmost town in the U.S. And so it is where, like the first sunrise, you know, first hits the U.S. So it's like a lot it's a thing for people to go and see sunrise there. [00:33:02.240] - Kim Tate New Year's Day. I've seen pictures of that. [00:33:05.510] - Tamara Gruber But you know me, I'm not a morning person. Sunrise right now is like four something, you know. So I was not going to get up at like three thirty to drive out there wasn't happening. But still I went out there and again handful of people were there while I was there. So I, I set up shop, I had my tripod, I was taking pictures, you know, I was like hanging out there. And I am so self-conscious about stuff like that, like I feel so uncomfortable, like taking up anyone else's space or time or whatever. [00:33:35.990] - Tamara Gruber So I tend to not do those things when there's people around. I just feel really uncomfortable. But because there was no one around, I'm like, oh, cool, I can take some pictures with me in it. I'm going to set up my tripod. And so it was it was nice. It was really cute. And then the town itself, I mean, it's quiet now because obviously the border is closed, but it's really cute. There's a place called Cohills inn & Pub which supposedly makes like great cocktails. [00:33:58.970] - Tamara Gruber There's a brewing place there. There's all kinds of trails and things. If you did decide to stay. And what most people do when the border is open is there's this island that kind of shares the border and it's called Campobello. And it's where the Roosevelts had like a summer home. So you can go out there and visit like this, you know, historic home. Sometimes they'll do like tea with Eleanor, you know, and the those things to do. [00:34:23.540] - Tamara Gruber But, like, that's a really popular thing to do. But it's it's closed right now because of the the border is closed. But if you go in the future, when the Canadian border is open, like, definitely check that out. But it was well worth it. And there's also if you go, you have to stop at this place called Monika's Chocolates. She will walk you through every bit of her shop. She makes everything by hand. [00:34:44.660] - Tamara Gruber So not just the chocolate, but she makes her own peanut butter. She makes her own caramel. Like everything that's going into this stuff, she's making by hand also. And the chocolates are amazing. So I was like, OK, they're going to melt in the car, but I have to get some. And so I was like trying to keep them cold by putting, like, water bottles around it and stuff. So that was kind of wrapping up my time in the Downeast region. [00:35:10.250] - Tamara Gruber And then I went up to the Maine highlands. [00:35:12.740] - Kim Tate Yeah. And so that's the Maine highlands. It's kind of like what you and I that's more of the lake and mountain interior, is that correct? Yeah. [00:35:19.400] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I spent one night in Bangor kind of as a layover and I visited like I drove by the Stephen King's house. He does still live there, but I guess they're turning it into a writer's retreat. And actually, I was able to get a lot of history because I took a walk, actually were supposed to be walking tour, but it because it was like 95 degrees, they nicely drove me around with the Bangor Historical Society. [00:35:42.620] - Kim Tate But they have a whole bunch of different tours that you can do because it at one point had the most millionaires. And I don't know if it was New England or the U.S., but because it was a logging town, there was like just a lot of wealth there at one time. So the town itself has these beautiful Victorian mansions, like the architecture's really beautiful. A lot of downtown was destroyed in a fire at one point. And obviously it's not a big lumber town today, but it's still cute like downtown. [00:36:12.470] - Kim Tate I mean, it's a little bit hard to judge sometimes right now some of the towns, because they're like coming back. But it was much more vibrant than I would have expected given this past year, you know, and everything that's happened. Yeah, but it was you know, there are a lot of cafes. There are tons of like outdoor dining kind of options. It was cute. You know, it was definitely a cute little town. And then they have like a good concert arena there that apparently bands love to play at. [00:36:38.090] - Kim Tate It's like you're on a river. And so, you know, people will come from far away to go see a show there and then stay overnight. So I stayed surprisingly. This one really surprised me. There's a casino hotel like I didn't expect that. They say this place called like the Hollywood Casino Hotel. But like, luckily, like, I was not interested in going to the casino, but like, the hotel part is separate. So, like, you didn't have to encounter any of that other stuff at all. [00:37:06.770] - Tamara Gruber Like even I came in a different entrance thinking I could cut through to get to the hotel because I'd walked across the street for dinner. And that was completely sectioned off, so it's like you, I did not have to walk through it at all, so that was like if you're not into gambling, then you don't worry about it [00:37:25.430] - Kim Tate We have a casino hotel out here like that, that's very separate that you can get to him through a lobby, but you don't it's not like a Vegas hotel where you walk through the casino to get to the elevators or something. [00:37:34.690] - Tamara Gruber Right. And where they don't want you to find your way out. [00:37:36.890] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. You know, you actually can't find your room. [00:37:40.790] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So from there, like the next morning I drove up to where I was staying in Millinocket Lake. But first I stopped at a place called the Hirundo Wildlife Refuge, and I did like a guided paddle, was with a naturalist there. And this is like a it's a really nice like if you are staying in Bangor and you want to get out and do some, like, walks and hikes without driving an hour and a half, it was you know, it's only like maybe 25 minutes or so out there. [00:38:09.830] - Tamara Gruber And they've tried to make it really accessible and affordable for families. So it's free. They do take donations. You can even borrow canoes or kayaks for free. I mean, they hope that you make a donation. So that's really nice. And a lot of their trails are wheelchair or stroller accessible, which is a lot of hiking trails in Maine are what they call rocks and routes. So it's a very uneven surface. So anyone that has any mobility issues, it's it's a bit of a struggle to get out in nature. [00:38:40.500] - Tamara Gruber And so the fact that these are like, you know, nicely done trails, there's also another one called the, I don't know, Orono bog boardwalk that I did. So it's like a boardwalk, you know, out like overlooking a bog back in. So it's nice to see that, like, again, for families that don't want to have, like, something too strenuous but want to get out nature, there's something for them to do. [00:38:59.870] - Tamara Gruber Then I drove up to it's called the New England Outdoors Center. And remember how you and I did like the Appalachian Mountain Club Lodge and we did that. Yeah. So it's you know, they have a large and then they have cabins. They don't do the same kind of family style dinners, communal dining. [00:39:17.710] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:39:18.200] - Tamara Gruber So it is different in that way, but it's on a lake and it's a lodge. They run activities, they have a restaurant there. It was closed when I was there just for that day. They try to balance it with other restaurants in the area so that everybody has a day off, you know, especially being short staffed right now. But they put me up in an amazing cabin like this, especially when I walked in there, I was like, OK, to three bedroom, two bath cabin with like this gorgeous kitchen. [00:39:44.690] - Tamara Gruber I can't believe, you know, like this is what I wish I had people with me. [00:39:47.720] - Kim Tate Yeah, of course. I remember you sharing your stories. I was like, oh, man. And it's like always happens with us when we find a great place, it's like, oh, you're here for ten hours. [00:39:56.420] - Tamara Gruber I was there for one night and I'm like, oh man. But they have a mix of cabins like they have smaller, like, you know, kind of more basic cabins. They're premium cabins. I think this was like a premium lodge, you know, kind of thing. But they have some that sleep up to fourteen. So great for like family groups, you know, extended families, friends, that kind of thing. And the waterfront there is beautiful. [00:40:18.380] - Tamara Gruber So they had their on Millinocket Lake looking across the lake to Mount Katahdin, which is the tallest mountain in Maine, and that's the end point of the Appalachian Trail. So it's like where it's famous because a lot of people will finish their hikes there and so people will go and meet them and greet them. So it's a great view. They have, like, I guess a tiny little beach front area, but they have like a picnic area, you know, like along the waterfront. [00:40:44.210] - Tamara Gruber And you can borrow canoes and kayaks or stand up paddleboards to go out. They also rent mountain bikes and they're building out like mountain bike trails there. But the thing that I did that was exciting was I did one of their wildlife tours. So when you and I did a moose tour, we went out like early morning and we're in a van. And then we did a canoe. This one they have in the evening or the early morning. But you go out on a pontoon boat, so you go across the lake and then you go into all these little streams and inlets because that's where the moose come down, like [00:41:17.630] - Kim Tate where the almost like the airboat tours in Florida. [00:41:20.660] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:41:23.090] - Tamara Gruber So we did that and we were like looking around and it was like, you know, that point where you're just about to give up. And then he's like, I think I see something. And it was really far in the distance, but you could really see there's the moose. And as we were coming back, we saw another one like a little bit closer to shore. So I still have not seen one with, like, the I've still haven't seen a male with the antlers [00:41:43.940] - Kim Tate Still. I know I was watching all year. I was watching all your pictures and I'm like, oh, another. And whatever the female ones are called. [00:41:50.690] - Tamara Gruber Cows. Yeah. Yeah. So and they're still big because they're still like they are because. [00:41:56.870] - Kim Tate Yeah. You don't want to get, you know, next to one of those. [00:41:59.630] - Tamara Gruber But yeah I was super excited though because I saw a lot of beaver and beaver was one thing that it's just I don't know, I've always wanted to see one in the wild because I see the beaver dams a lot. [00:42:10.970] - Tamara Gruber But you never actually see the beaver. And so as we were going, you know, you would see the Beaver Dam and then you would see like a head swimming through the water. And when I did my paddle at the wildlife refuge, like earlier in the day, she was talking about Beaver and, you know, you mostly would see them at night and that they slap their tail to scare you away. And she kind of demonstrated with the paddle how loud the slap was. [00:42:35.410] - Tamara Gruber Well, I got they slapped their tail at us a lot, you know, so I have a picture of like this huge splash from them. So, like, I have some pictures of their head in the water, but it's like a distance. It's nothing. It's nothing that like. Yeah, yeah. Nothing great. But definitely saw them. Definitely heard them that really get away from here. Oh yes. That was cool. [00:42:56.540] - Kim Tate Awesome. So lots of wildlife and getting out into nature. What else did you do when you were in that area. [00:43:02.830] - Tamara Gruber So I did do some kayaking on the lake, but it was a little bit choppy. So I didn't go. I kind of just stuck to shore and, you know, just kind of explored a little bit because then I was driving the next day, I drove up a little bit further north, but I took another scenic road. It's Route 11 and it's called the Katahdin Woods scenic byway up to a town of Patten, like there's a lumberjack museum there. [00:43:29.650] - Tamara Gruber So it's big, big, big lumber town. And I stayed at a place called Shin Pond Village. And this is they also have a bunch of cabins. So they have camping sites, RV sites. And then I think about a dozen different cabins, again, like a two bedroom cabin. It was you know, it was nice. It was it was not fancy, but it was it was spacious and, you know, nice. [00:43:54.950] - Tamara Gruber And so I liked it a lot. And, you know, it had kind of a nice view over like a meadow. But the thing that they do there is they rent side by side like ATVs. But the Polaris like side by side here, because there's just like tons of trails out there. So it's kind of like one of the big things to do in that area is to go, you know, ride these trails. And so there's different ATV clubs that have built them out and maintain them. [00:44:22.600] - Tamara Gruber And so someone from Shin Pond Village took me out on a little guided tour. They don't usually do the guided excursions, but each of the vehicles has like a GPS built in and a tracker built in. So it's kind of easy. They give you a map, they kind of talk to you about where to go. But I was surprised that even as we're driving, like I would get lost in a second, you would think. But she was easily following GPS. [00:44:43.600] - Tamara Gruber But there were also times when you come across like a trail map and they'd be like, you are here. And it was so different things. So that's good. [00:44:49.750] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, they really maintain them nicely. [00:44:51.610] - Kim Tate It sounds kind of funny, but there's some show on TV and I don't even know what it is, but it's like the I don't know what they would be called, but they're like the police officers that take care of nature, OK, or whatever. Yeah. Some kind. And they have the show. I remember it being in Maine and they were talking about it was there was a bunch of ATV drivers and they were talking about all the trails and like their speed limits on the trails and yeah. [00:45:14.710] - Kim Tate Like a whole trail system. And it was kind of it seems like it's a major it's almost like it seems like it's like cross-country ski trails during the winter and then in the summer. Snowmobiling. Yeah. Or snowmobiles. Yeah. So they turn out that's what it probably is, a snowmobiles and they turn on ATVs in the summer. So it's kind of cool how they it's such a big part of their life out there. [00:45:35.860] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I was talking to Riley from Shrimpton village and she was saying that it's actually winter was always there big season for snowmobiling, but summer is now becoming like just as big or even bigger. And it's longer season, obviously, you know, for ATV and Hannah and I did something similar to this, like a couple of years ago up in northern New Hampshire. We went up and we did a little cabin in a place, you know, did kind of guided tours, you know, and we actually crossed over into Vermont for the day and had lunch and came back. [00:46:03.400] - Tamara Gruber And, you know, it was really neat. So it's definitely some of these towns, like there's just not a lot of other stuff there, you know, so like this has become both their recreation and a way to bring in tourism. . And I think of like my nephew loves ATVing, you know, like he would love to go up there and do that, kind of like for me, you know, an hour or two of bumping around and I'm OK. [00:46:25.780] - Tamara Gruber But, you know, some people are like, really love it. And I also like, how fast can we go? How much, how dirty can we get that stuff. Yeah, but like like they brought me up to the top of I think it was called Robert's Mountain and, you know, really beautiful view. She's like, we love to watch sunset here. But then on the way back we encounter a lot of moose. And again, that that's OK. [00:46:45.130] - Tamara Gruber I do not want to be on the ATV trails at night, but she said those things I like really good lights and all that. So I'm like, OK, I mean, you know, so if you're into that, it's definitely a great place to go for it. But there's also like plenty of other hiking and stuff to do nearby, of course. [00:47:00.250] - Kim Tate Yeah. [00:47:00.730] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So because it's so there's this new national monument called Katahdin Woods and Waters National Monument. So if you think about like the national park system, like National Park is like the most well known. But then there's all these other types of public land, right, the historical monuments and, you know, [00:47:17.480] - Kim Tate That's like that white sands, I always got thrown that it was a national monument, but now it's a national park. [00:47:23.670] - Tamara Gruber Now it's a national park. Exactly. Yeah. So it is. They told me it's very rough and I didn't know exactly what that meant. But basically it means that there's really not like facilities there. [00:47:33.810] - Kim Tate So I mean infrastructure. Yeah, there's no visitor center and bathrooms and stuff like that. [00:47:37.230] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. It's more about I mean it's it's newly designated. So I'm sure some of that will develop over time. But it's also an international dark sky preserve and newly has that designation too. And that's like actually I think it might be a sanctuary. So there's levels there's like a sanctuary preserve community. There's like different designations for dark sky, but it is known for its dark skies. So I don't think they want to develop it too too much. But it's good for like if you want to do backcountry camping and stargazing or if you did want to do some like a real back country, like hiking. [00:48:14.340] - Tamara Gruber But I will say, like I so the first night that I was up there, I drove in and I was meeting an astronomer from Dark Sky Maine to do some stargazing because I was a little nervous to just like wander out there on my own, like, where do I go? What do I do? And so I started driving into the park and it has like a 17 mile loop, I think 14 or 17. And they told me it would take like two hours to do the whole loop. [00:48:39.030] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, OK, you know, and wondering. But as I didn't realize, it's like ten miles, like just to get to the loop it felt like. And so and it's really rough. So there are a number of places where you would go, you know, up in this section of Maine and you and I experienced this to where it's really logging roads. [00:48:57.240] - Kim Tate Yeah. You don't even know if it's a road. Yeah. [00:48:59.460] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So it is, you know, it's gravel but there's like there's different grades of gravel, like it is, you know, like there are big potholes, big chunks of rock, you know, like where if you, if you have a low clearance car like forget about it, like it's it's not happening for you. And so I'm bumping along this and I right before I went, I had my car serviced. I'm like, OK, we just did a whole lot of driving, going to make sure my car's like in good shape. [00:49:24.780] - Tamara Gruber And they said like, oh, I think you need tires. And I'm like, really? Because I got tires right before you and I went to Maine two years ago. But I well, I didn't drive like 5000 miles, you know. Yeah. For one road trip. And then I've done all these other we drove to Florida, you know, like we have put on a lot of miles. And so I could think was what if I pop a tire out here? [00:49:43.230] - Tamara Gruber There's no cell service. There's no one coming. I just have to walk, like, through the wilderness back. So I'm like, you know, I'm just going to wait. I'm just going to wait over here, you know, for the person I'm meeting and he's going to drive me in. So that's what I did. So I would say, like, it is a place to go, like if that is what you're looking for. [00:50:01.860] - Tamara Gruber But just be aware, you know, when it comes to services that that's what it is. I actually totally because I was reading a blog post recently and it said you could see lots of monuments there like you were there. [00:50:18.570] - Tamara Gruber Yes. Because it's called the National Monument. Does not mean there are monuments there. [00:50:22.470] - Kim Tate Exactly. It's not like Washington, D.C.. Yeah, that's crazy. [00:50:26.610] - Tamara Gruber So I'm like, OK, blogger, start to make sure you've actually been there. [00:50:30.390] - Kim Tate But anyway. Don't write for SEO, write for helping people. [00:50:33.420] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, exactly. So at least our listeners know that we're going to give it straight. Right. You know. Yeah, I really feel. But we went out there and we saw a beautiful sunset over the mountain because we stopped this overlook overlooking Mt Katahdin and then they clouded it up. So I was like, I am such a bad. [00:50:53.430] - Kim Tate You have such bad luck with it. [00:50:59.250] - Tamara Gruber I mean, at least we got this. I got to see the northern lights. Normally every time I've done stargazing, you know, it rains or it clouds up. So we hung out for a while. I mea

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191 Tamara's New England Travels

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 15, 2021 50:07

This week we are catching up on Tamara's recent travels around New England -- from a girlfriend getaway in Vermont to glamping in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. About Safe Travels Kit Our sponsor this week is Safe Travels Kit. Founded by New York fashion executive and avid globetrotter, Adriana Martone, the Safe Travels Kit is a patent pending, first-to-market travel and airline bedding kit that launched in December 2020. After a horrific experience with a dirty airplane seat, Adriana thought something more needed to be done to create more sanitary, comfortable travel experiences for all. Hence, the Safe Travels Kit brand was born. Now, when travelers set off on a vacation or business trip, instead of worrying about encountering unsanitary surroundings, they can journey in comfort and serenity, resting on the Safe Travels Kit super-soft seat covers and pillowcases, made from high-tech fabric that prevents germs from penetrating. Each kit costs $39.95 and contains: One lightweight, washable, compact travel pouch (weighs .7 ounces) one seat cover that fits planes (economy and business class seats), trains, and cars; One standard size pillow case (made of the same material as the seat cover); 10 individually wrapped sanitising wipes; and One surgical face mask. New England Trip Tips Many state tourism boards have put together different trails that make it easy to plan a trip. Vermont has a cheese trail, beer trail, covered bridges trail, and more. The visitor center or the visitor's board website can provide a lot of information and sometimes coupons. Tamara has a good post on We3Travel with her itinerary for planning a Vermont road trip and read more about her weekend getaway on YourTimetoFly.com. Brattleboro, Vermont is a hip artsy town. Bennington, Vermont is a historic town in Southern Vermont. Manchester, Vermont has a lot to do in town and nearby and Tamara has a post about things to do in Manchester. Lye Brook Falls is a great hike just outside of Manchester. The Mountain Inn in Killington was perfect for a girls' trip. They have a restaurant and distillery on-site and have renovated the rooms to be trendy. In the winter they have a dining experience to eat in a gondola. Cold Hollow Cider Mill has great apple cider donuts and hard cider tastings. Bring along a cooler or cooler bag with ice packs to be able to bring home cheese and other goodies. Morse Farm near Montpelier does a maple syrup tasting. Auto Camp is a glamping resort that offers airstream camping, safari tents, and X Suites. There are locations in Sonoma, Yosemite, Zion, and now Cape Cod. You can read Tamara's full review of Auto Camp Cape Cod on YourTimetoFly. See other places to go glamping in New England. You can read about Tamara's trip to the Tuxbury Tiny House Village in New Hampshire on We3Travel, which is not far from Newburyport, Massachusetts and Portsmouth, New Hampshire. The Kimpton Hotel Monaco has a great location in Old City Philadelphia. It is a great hotel right next to all the historic sites like Independence Hall. Stay tuned next week to hear more about Tamara's trip to Maine! Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.240] - Kim Tate Today, we're checking in with Tamara about her recent travels to New England. [00:00:16.710] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:32.040] - Kim Tate Today's episode is sponsored by Safe Travels Kit. And as some of you may know, we are a family that deals with food allergies and the Safe Travels kit is perfect for those who are trying to protect themselves when they travel normally. I have to board the airplane in advance and wipe down our whole seat. And trust me, all the crevices around seats are not always the cleanest things. And the Safe Travels kit comes with an adjustable seat cover that covers the seat. [00:00:57.100] - Kim Tate So I don't have to worry about all the germs and any food particles that may be there, as well as a super soft pillowcase and 10 sanitizing wipes that are perfect for helping me wipe down the tray table. And it even comes with one face mask. So if you guys are looking for a safe way to travel, you might want to check out the safe travels kit. [00:01:14.960] - Tamara Gruber You know, I think about so many other kinds of germs, but I luckily don't have to deal with those allergens. So I never even thought of it for that reason. But really, I would love the security of knowing that those things are being kept away. [00:01:27.570] - Kim Tate Definitely. Especially the spaces between chairs that can just get gross. So nice to know that this is an option for us. Great. [00:01:33.570] - Tamara Gruber Well, everyone can check out Safe TravelsKit.com or check it out on Amazon. [00:01:39.560] - Kim Tate So, Tamara, I, of course, follow you all over social media, and I've been very sad and feeling left out because you are just jet setting around New England and I have been stuck at home in Seattle. And so why don't you tell us all about some of the adventures you've been on lately? [00:01:56.000] - Tamara Gruber I know I feel a little bit like a champagne. That was shook and then the cork was popped you know? [00:02:01.130] - Kim Tate Well, exactly. It's like party vaccination rocks. [00:02:05.720] - Tamara Gruber Totally. [00:02:06.560] - Tamara Gruber I mean, it's just like it just has come about in that way. But there's definitely, I'm sure for everyone, like a lot of pent up demand for travel. And it just worked out like luckily Glenn is still not traveling for work. And so he's here to help out, you know, bring Hannah to and from school. So I've been able to go out and do some things on my own. But our first one was actually a Mother's Day thing. [00:02:27.170] - Tamara Gruber So one night Glenn was asking, like, you know, what would you want to do for Mother's Day? Do you want to go for brunch or, you know, these things? And I kind of looked at him and I'm like, how do I tell them I just want to go away, like, without them? So I did. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I really just want to go somewhere. And Vermont had recently reopened to people that were vaccinated. [00:02:49.970] - Tamara Gruber And I have wanted to go to Vermont like all last summer, but I couldn't because of the travel restrictions. So I asked a friend of mine who had also said, like, hey, when we're vaccinated, like, we should do something. So she's a teacher and she's had, of course, like a really very stressful year. So I was like, would you want to go to Vermont? She's like, absolutely. And so I planned it. [00:03:12.740] - Tamara Gruber And I was like, Do you want to know anything that we're doing or should I just surprise you? And she was like, I have so much to deal with. I would be happy with whatever you do. And I know she's like she's someone that she likes to travel. She loves checking out new things. She's kind of like up for anything type of person anyway. So I just, like, went crazy. And I was like going through all these like, oh, like Vermont has a cheese trail and they have a beer trail and they have a, you know, like covered bridges trail. [00:03:38.600] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, how can I, like, fit a whole bunch in to, you know, like a long three day weekend. [00:03:43.790] - Kim Tate So that's I like states do that when they do. I mean, that's become a thing. I remember remember that long time ago you and I did that press trip to Jefferson Parish. Louisiana. And they had like an oyster trail. And I just think it's it's really cool how, you know, states do that. It kind of gives you a cohesive theme and very organized literature to help you learn how to kind of explore. [00:04:09.360] - Tamara Gruber It does. You know, and I think a lot of times, like a lot of people really don't have time to plan things. And so you see something like that, you're like, oh, yeah, that sounds interesting. Like, let's go do it. And it's fun. Like, I know my sister and my brother, actually, both of them, they're part of this group of couples through their church where they always travel together like twice a year. [00:04:26.960] - Tamara Gruber And my brother is the organizer. Imagine that one of the things that they do is like this chocolate. I don't know if it's like a scavenger hunt, but it's like one of these things, like the town hall sets up like different kind of chocolate related death by chocolate, I think it's called, and then makes you go visit like each of the businesses that are participating to get your little piece of chocolate at or whatever. So it's just a fun thing and like and now it's something that they look forward to. [00:04:53.780] - Tamara Gruber Like we go and we do this together and it's our tradition. [00:04:56.870] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's awesome. I think also a heads up to people just when you are planning to explore a new region, don't forget about the visitors bureaus and visitor centers of the city or town or state that you're planning to visit because they are there for visitors specifically and they have a lot of great information and can really help you make the most out of your trip. So a lot of it's online, but sometimes I find that going into their little visitor centers can be extremely useful. [00:05:26.180] - Kim Tate Yeah, and that's done some great coupons. [00:05:29.210] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, that's what I really want to do with Vermont, which I think is Vermont vacation dotcom. But we were coming up from Rhode Island, so it was kind of doing a lot of southern and central Vermont. But they have a lot of scenic byways, as you can imagine, because it's just a very it's just such a pretty state. It's one of my favorites in New England. It just has that very classic feel, you know, like these towns with the church, with the big steeple and, you know, like just exactly what you think of when you think classic Americana. [00:05:58.430] - Tamara Gruber Totally. So we started out in Brattleboro, which I hadn't really spent a lot of time in, and that is kind of like a artsy kind of hip little town. So we just kind of walked around town and did like a cheese shop there. And then we drove across like a scenic byway over to the town of Bennington, which is like a little bit more of a historic town. We started a bunch of covered bridges and different sites, and then we went up and we spent our first night in Manchester. [00:06:27.950] - Tamara Gruber And if anyone hasn't been to Vermont, like Manchester is definitely one of my favorite towns. It's just it's really pretty. It's really quaint. There's a lot to do nearby. There's, you know, a number of ski resorts that aren't that to. Too far away, really good food scene, there's outlet shopping like a high end outlet shopping, if you enjoy that. But then there's also like the Orvis. Yeah, flyfishing company, their headquarters is there. [00:06:51.340] - Tamara Gruber They have a resort there that has like a Land Rover experience. And then there's, of course, fly-Fishing, you know, there's Norman Rockwell stuff. So tons to do in that area. But we we stayed overnight there and we the next day went and did a waterfall because I was like, OK, we're going to see a lot of covered bridges. We're going to see a lot of waterfalls that we're going to eat like a lot of cheese and maple sirup kind of stuff. [00:07:11.900] - Tamara Gruber So we did this hike, which I think you would have enjoyed, too. It was like five miles round trip, but it was up to a waterfall. And when we got up there, it was pretty much empty, like there was no one there for quite a while. And then after I was taking some pictures, like a bunch of people came and then there was like a whole flood of people coming up. We're like, well, we made it here just in time. [00:07:30.370] - Tamara Gruber But it was like one of those good, you know, like uphill climbs that you felt like you worked hard for it, but you weren't, like, totally exhausted afterwards, you know, and you had a good reward, you know, when I got there. [00:07:41.590] - Kim Tate So that was sometimes something. Yeah. [00:07:43.150] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And then we went we did a historic home that Robert Lincoln, who's Abraham Lincoln's son, had built a summer home up there when he was like president of the Pullman like the Pullman cars and trains like that company that like, you know, a little self guided tour of that home. And then we drove from there. We made a couple other stops at like Maple sirup places up to Killington, which is one of the major ski resorts in in Vermont. [00:08:12.280] - Tamara Gruber And we at this place called the Mountain In. And it was kind of like you could tell it was probably like an old like not so great hotel that they have renovated to make it look like cool and retro. You know, sometimes they take anything like motels or different hotels and they add like this, you know, kind of cool element to it. [00:08:31.330] - Kim Tate We stayed in one like that in Santa Rosa. I remember we. Yeah, that it was kind of a motel, but it had such cute, like, retro theming. [00:08:38.110] - Tamara Gruber Right. Right. Yes. [00:08:39.560] - Kim Tate This one was. I think it was anyway. Sorry. Go ahead. [00:08:42.300] - Tamara Gruber This one has a distillery there. So it's like distillery and in and then they have like a restaurant there. So it's like cool. And I thought it was really good for like a girls trip because, you know, like they have the little tasting room where you can taste the different spirits. And like I was like a cool, trendy thing. And then they had little balconies off the room where you can overlook the the slopes at Killington, which still had some snow on them, you know, so it was really neat. [00:09:06.610] - Tamara Gruber And then I booked us a special experience, like something that I've wanted to do all winter here. But the places that do it are so darn expensive that I haven't done it. But is eating in a ski gondola. Oh, yeah. Yes. Have you seen those? Do you have. [00:09:20.410] - Kim Tate Yeah, I don't think we have a gondola, but we have the little the Globes like the glass triangle globe things in Seattle. But yeah, I've seen the gondolas. I know they have them in Colorado. [00:09:31.390] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. It's just something that I've wanted to do and like yeah there's a place here called Ocean House which does it and it's like a fondue experience, but it's like five hundred dollars and you get basically like crudite and fondue and like not even wine or anything. So I'm like I want to do that. Looks so cool. It's like so cool Instagram ish kind of thing. But anyway they had it there, you did have to pay a little extra, but then the food was just like normal and they're heated and they had actually like built it out so that it had like little curtains and pillows and like it was like designed inside. [00:10:04.870] - Tamara Gruber So it was really neat. And they had music piped in so, so fun because it was definitely cold that night, you know. So they're like the waitress would come in, like open the doors and give us the food. And it was just it was such a fun experience. It was very too, because they brought out like a I think a like maple aged bourbon or something like maple barrel bourbon was like their thing and they brought it out. [00:10:26.920] - Tamara Gruber And I don't really drink like spirits that much. And so it came out, you know, you know, like an amuse bouche. When they're serving you like dinner, they'll bring a little thing from the chef. So I'm like, is this like the alcohol amuse bouche? But like, I I'm not a bourbon fan. So I was like sipping it. And then I'm like, OK, I'm just going to dump the rest and the rest of my drink and. [00:10:48.850] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, but I'm like, is it really bad if I just switch to wine when I'm at a distillery? [00:10:54.280] - Kim Tate Yeah, I'm not a spirits person but it sounds good. I wonder how many restaurants are going to have a whole new monetization like as bad as and hard as the you know, pandemic was on them being able to have this new revenue stream that maybe some of them have found and developed is going to be exciting like the outdoor dining. [00:11:13.340] - Tamara Gruber I mean, Glenn and I were just talking about that this weekend because we're in Philadelphia. And I was saying, like, there's so many things that I hope stick around. You know, like so much outdoor dining, I really hope stays. But yeah. So we did that. We stayed. So that was our second night. We stayed in Killington and then the next day we drove up the scenic route one hundred to a few more like waterfalls and different sites. [00:11:34.930] - Tamara Gruber And we hit we're going to hit that Ben and Jerry's factory store, but we've both already done. So we went to this other, like apple cider place that I've gone to called Cold Hollow Cider Mill, and since I last been there, they actually added hard cider, too. So you would like this because they do like a cider tasting. Like hard cider tasting. [00:11:53.690] - Kim Tate That's right up my alley. Yeah, I like regular cider and hard ciders. [00:11:57.680] - Tamara Gruber Well, and the good thing about this was, although you may not like it as much as I did, but when you do the hard cider tasting, they give you a coupon for six free apple cider donuts across the street. [00:12:06.920] - Kim Tate Oh, I would love that. Love it. [00:12:09.860] - Kim Tate Yeah. I have to come do fall with you in New England because the Apple Cider Donuts, we have one place out here that does, um, and I've heard of people getting them out here, but I've never gone around to it. But that's, you know, sounds like a dream dessert for me. [00:12:24.890] - Tamara Gruber They're so good. They're so, so good. There's a place that I like to go to. Sometimes they'll have like an hour waiting in line to get them. It'll be worth it if we'll just chat for an hour. We can record a podcast while we wait for apple cider. Well, I will say definitely the thing to do is if you're going to do one of these road trips to Vermont is bring a cooler because I brought like a cooler like a small cooler bag. [00:12:45.170] - Tamara Gruber But it was not big enough because, of course, like, there's all these cheese places, like we went to like two or three artisan cheese places. So we bought cheese and then we would stop at the maple syrup, you know, the maple sugar shacks. And so you'd get like maple syrup and, you know, just like different maple goods, you know, and then you have the craft beer, you know, like there's so many things that you want to, like, pop into that cooler. [00:13:07.280] - Kim Tate We'll have to go back to that travel tech episode. I'm sure that he has some advice on the best coolers. I remember him talking about that. [00:13:14.810] - Tamara Gruber I was like, well, good thing it's still cold out. You know, we did bring it in for, like a fridge one day, but the next night it was going to be 32 degrees and like, it can just be fine. So we had a lot of fun. And we in the last place we went to, I think it was called Morse Farm, and they did a syrup tasting. [00:13:31.520] - Tamara Gruber So a lot of places like you kind of have to know, do you like like a rich robust or do you like a lighter amber? But there they didn't and even did it with covid. They had a Plexiglas shield. They gave you a little spoon each time and then you just kind of lowered your mask and popped it in. But it was really neat, you know, to do that kind of sirup tasting. And of course, everybody, one of the things that's big there are maple cremees. [00:13:52.880] - Tamara Gruber So it's like a soft ice cream, but it's maple flavored soft ice cream. [00:13:57.710] - Kim Tate That's so that sounds good. I like maple sirup. I'm not I'm not like in the maple candies that much, but I don't.Yeah, I like caramel so maybe I don't know, I'm not big on like the maple stuff. Like the sugar candy. [00:14:09.650] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I was never big on that but I love syrup definitely. I round my pancakes and syrup and like all of these country stores are just they're so cute, you know, they have like all the pancake mix and you know, just like all the locally made products kind of stuff. [00:14:26.150] - Tamara Gruber So I anyway I have a whole itinerary that I just put up on We3Travel just with the three days in Vermont if you want to see all of our stops. But it was just so much fun. It was just a very it was a good girls trip, right. Yeah. I don't know if, like, everyone would have wanted to do the stops that we made, you know, like I probably would have been like, OK, enough of cheese shops or enough covered bridges. [00:14:49.550] - Tamara Gruber Now, like, they all kind of start to look alike, you know, like things like that. But the waterfalls are beautiful, too. And it was a good time of year to be out there, you know, because the water is in this. Yeah, the water. I will say, though, the only the struggle still was finding a bathroom because so many of the visitors centers and I think because Vermont had just reopened. Oh, yeah. [00:15:09.560] - Tamara Gruber Like a lot of places that had closed down, maybe they open during ski season, but then closed again. And we're going to open like after Memorial Day. So we had a little bit of trouble sometimes, like finding restaurants that were open or like one day we just we took some of our cheese and crackers and we made ourselves a little picnic, you know, and that's what we did for lunch. [00:15:29.270] - Kim Tate Yeah. I definitely think that, like, the travel sector is changing fast. And I think after Memorial Day, it'll be interesting to see how quickly destinations are able to adjust. And because, you know, I think it's also finding workers again and getting back on board. [00:15:45.950] - Tamara Gruber And so I was going to say definitely the challenge is staffing because know here, like quite a few states have lifted restrictions entirely. So it's like, yeah, wide open, which is kind of crazy and takes getting used to. [00:15:58.520] - Tamara Gruber But definitely the challenge is still like staffing. You know, we went to a restaurant the other day and we're looking to like move our reservation to be a little bit earlier. And there didn't seem like there's anything available. And we walked up and like the whole like half the patio is empty. We're like, what do you mean it wasn't available? Like, that part was closed off. I'm sure they just didn't have, you know, staffing for it. [00:16:20.750] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, definitely an issue. But it was it was such a nice trip. My friend loved it. It was just like one of those things where it was like the first, you know, getaway like without the family, the first getaway, like, you know, and so long. And it was just it was just so nice. It was just kind of strange. Like we got to be around someone that we didn't live with and stayed in the room with her and you still negotiate some of that, like, mask. [00:16:49.300] - Tamara Gruber It was interesting. I mean, I definitely think that's going to be everyone has to come to like different comfort levels. And it's like the more you kind of get yourself out there, the more comfortable you might feel. It's also nice to know that, like, Vermont is like 70 percent vaccinated. So you're going to a fairly safe, you know, destination where everyone around you is kind of in a similar boat. So it makes you good. [00:17:12.370] - Kim Tate But that's awesome. So that's trip one. I know there's like two or three other ones. Was what's next that you're going to dish about? [00:17:21.790] - Tamara Gruber So the next thing I did, I did on my own and it was glamping things. So I went to this place called Auto Camp Cape Cod. So Auto Camp is like a upscale glamping resort that uses Airstream like retrofitted like new Airstream trailers. And they also have some like camping tents and some what they call X Suites, which are tiny houses, really, but they have locations. There's one in Russian River and Sonoma. There's one outside of Zion, one outside of Yosemite. [00:17:54.760] - Tamara Gruber This one in Cape Cod just opened, I think, in April. And then there is a few others that are opening this year. So it's definitely like one of the it's kind of like under canvas, you know, it's like dedicated glamping, but upscale lots of amenities, you know, kind of feels like you're on a hotel resort, except your accommodations are are very different. And I will say I loved it. So this one I went by myself because I just wanted to check this out. [00:18:20.350] - Tamara Gruber I've written about glamping in New England in the past. In the fall, I have an article about like 20 different places that you can go camping in New England. But I wanted to do more of a deep dove into this one. And I just I was really happy to be away by myself. It was so fun, but it was such a unique experience. It was like the first of all, the clubhouse that they have, like the main kind of lobby. [00:18:45.010] - Tamara Gruber You could say it was just gorgeous. It was very like they call it mid century modern, but it felt like they had like an eco lodge type of feel to it, too, because it was very like inside. Outside. So you, like, walked in this big door. There's a desk, there's like a little shop with all the kind of curated gift shop kind of stuff, but then also like food and things like that that you could buy. [00:19:05.830] - Tamara Gruber And then they had this huge, like, lobby area with all these different types of like lounge seating, a little area where they would you can purchase breakfast or coffee or they do all day dining. Then there were these long, like work tables that you would sometimes find in like a Courtyard Marriott type of lobby where there's like a workstations like long tables that have like outlets and things so people can do work there. But then it opened straight into a patio with more different types of lounge seating. [00:19:31.420] - Tamara Gruber And then like a view across the lawn and in the distance, you could see like the ocean and they had like a fire pit, you know, set up outside. And then there was like a really neat looking fireplace inside as well. So it was like a just a beautiful property. Like, you step in right away and you're like, OK, this is not like a campground. You know, this is something. [00:19:53.140] - Tamara Gruber I love how more hotels and resorts are getting kind of this lobby focus where they're creating a lot of sitting areas in the lobbies, because I think a lot of people want to do that. They don't want to just be in your room the whole time. So that's cool that I think that's a trend that I've been noticing more and more. [00:20:12.340] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's nice, especially if you're traveling with somebody to right to have a place to, like, hang out. And I definitely saw that with, you know, whether it was like family groups or, you know, like friend groups that these kind of places, you know, tend to attract that kind of thing where you can have your individual accommodations, but then you're kind of hanging out around the campfire together, something like, yeah, I definitely feel like this was a really good spot for a romantic getaway, because the way that the trailers are set up, they have a queen bed in a bedroom and then they do have a couch that could fold out into a futon. [00:20:46.090] - Tamara Gruber But it's really like one adult or two little kids. Like there's no way like a family of four, like teen, you know, with teens, like there's no way you could do it with them. Yeah. And even that like even the family, like I saw a lot of families are like toddler age. They're like, OK, so they put the kids on the pull out, but like the bathrooms on one side and the bedrooms on the other side and the kids are in the middle, you know, so it's like a little bit like where do you go, where do you hang out? [00:21:13.330] - Tamara Gruber And I know you have that in a hotel room, too, and you can certainly hang out, you know, outside by the fire and such. But, you know, I definitely felt like it would be really nice as a romantic getaway for something just very different. [00:21:25.960] - Kim Tate I think that sounds nice. I mean, I yeah, I think it's it varies based on what people are looking for. It's so it's good to consider spacing. I mean, you talked about that even when we talked about the road trip, the massive road trip. You. Like, sometimes families need space, and so you have to remember that when you're booking your accommodations, right? [00:21:45.680] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Just because it says it can sleep four. [00:21:48.440] - Kim Tate Exactly. [00:21:48.970] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, well, it was sleep, the four of you comfortably. Yes. But the Airstreams itself, they were really nice. So you went in and there was like this, you know, lounge living area with the couch that converts to a bed and then there's a kitchen area. The kitchen had like a mini fridge and a microwave and a sink and just like a coffeemaker with, like, fresh ground coffee from like a local roaster. And the bathroom was super nice. [00:22:19.130] - Tamara Gruber And they had all of the products that you would need, again, like, you know, local organic kind of products, really soft towels. They provided robes the bedroom, like little things that you don't even always find in a hotel like next to the bed either side. There is a little mini nightstand that had USB plugs as well as like the lighting controls and stuff. And in the whole Airstream, you could actually pair your, like, phone or something to their Bluetooth and then play music through the speakers like throughout the Airstream I saw, which was really neat, like when I was just hanging out by myself, I was doing some work and I was like playing some music and just doing some work using the Wi-Fi. [00:22:59.930] - Tamara Gruber You know, it's just little things like that that were good. And then I had like air conditioning and and heating and I had like a skylight. And even in the bathroom, I had like a little you could pop the skylight and then the fan to kind of get the steam out of there. So I was really impressed. I just I really liked it. They all come with, like a picnic table and two chairs, not like folding chairs, but like, you know, two chairs next to a little fire. [00:23:26.240] - Tamara Gruber The only thing is that you can't burn firewood there. You have to, like, buy the stuff called Goodwood, which is kind of like, look, I kind of compressed sawdust like made into like a log kind of thing. So I think it's like for environmental purposes, just not to be burning like wood. But it was also like it was right on this bikeway that goes through one section of the cape. It's like an 11 mile bike path and it's backs right up on the on the bike path. [00:23:51.080] - Tamara Gruber And they have a little bike shed where you can borrow bikes to use. So the next day I, I rode all the way down to Woods Hole, which is where the ferry will go out to go over to Martha's Vineyard, you know, one of the islands off of the Cape. And, you know, it's just a cute little town with shops and restaurants and stuff. So you can ride down there. You go past a beach, you can hang out at the beach, you can go. [00:24:14.210] - Tamara Gruber This other direction was through like a swampy. Sounds terrible, but like a nice, you know, like a marsh area where there's like seabirds and things like that. So it was just, you know, it was really it was really very, very nice getaway. And I had fun. It was nice. I would definitely check out one of their destinations. If you're going to be, you know, in some of the national parks, and especially as they start to open up more, I think they're opening up one in the Catskills, which we did an episode on that. [00:24:39.780] - Tamara Gruber So another option for you. [00:24:43.130] - Kim Tate Well, that definitely sounds like a great solo getaway, but I know that you have even more coming up. You've been so busy. So what's next on your New England adventures? [00:24:53.510] - Tamara Gruber You know, it's funny because I was just thinking about it, too. It's like one of each kind of trip. I did a girls trip. I did a solo trip. I did a family trip, and I did a couples trip. Yeah, that's where all the kind of that you like to enjoy. It's nice that you had that. That's awesome. [00:25:06.930] - Kim Tate So what's what's up next? Now, what's the family trip? [00:25:09.650] - Tamara Gruber Well, so the family trip was a weekend away and another type of glamping situation. It was a tiny house. So I think everyone's kind of heard of these little tiny houses. It's definitely a trend like some people are moving to, like, let's get rid of the house and live in, like, these tiny house living type of thing. But it also can be used for camping. And so there's a place called Tuxbury tiny house village, and it is part of the Tuxbury Pond RV resort, which is right on the border between Massachusetts and New Hampshire. [00:25:41.420] - Tamara Gruber So I think the address is officially New Hampshire, but it was only about an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes away for us to go up. And I've written about them, you know, in my little glamping round up, but I hadn't had a chance to go and do it. So they were like, hey, you know, do you have a chance this year? So I was like, sure, I'll come up. [00:25:59.300] - Tamara Gruber So they hosted us. And luckily Hannah agreed it was like between her exams. So she was able to get away for the weekend because sometimes she's like, no, I'm too busy. So it was like the one weekend that we didn't have anything going on. So I basically came home from Cape Cod and then repacked and we drove up to New Hampshire. But it was a similar type of thing. But instead of it being an Airstream, it was a tiny house. [00:26:23.000] - Tamara Gruber So you guys can go on to We3Travel. And I have a post that'll be up by the time this comes out. So you can see a little bit more. If you can't understand what I'm describing, you know, from the pictures, you'll you'll be able to get it. But this was like this was like a real rV campground, so like when you pulled in the office, it was already closed, but they left keys for us. [00:26:44.210] - Tamara Gruber So it's like, you know, your typical, like RV campground where there's just tons of RVs everywhere. Like, some peoples are clearly like permanently there. You know, some people have porch decorations. [00:26:58.820] - Tamara Gruber And it's also every time I've been to one of these, like when I've done a KOA kind of thing, I'm always taken by, like, how it's such a community, like everyone seems to know each other. Right. And so like the next day. [00:27:13.610] - Kim Tate I was just going to say, you have hosts like there's like RV campground hosts that welcome you or, you know, is family a very community respect. [00:27:20.960] - Tamara Gruber We late for that, I guess. But yeah, they have all kinds of activities. But you would just see, like, neighbors talking to each other. A lot of them, I think, because it's a really big campground, have these golf carts that they store there. So they're like zooming around in their golf carts and waving to people and talking to people. And, you know, just, you know, it's like being in a neighborhood. [00:27:38.900] - Tamara Gruber So sometimes when you go into that, you're like, oh, I feel like a little like I'm missing something here. Like I'm not part of that. Yeah, but we just kind of did our own thing and they had all of the little tiny houses off to like one side. And ours was called Emerson because they'll have names and it was right on the pond. So we had like a really nice view sitting in our Adirondack chairs looking at the like where a fire pit was like looking out on the pond, you know. [00:28:04.640] - Tamara Gruber So that was it was nice. And they definitely have activities there, like they had horseshoes and basketball and volleyball and they have a pool and they have a playground. And they had like a calendar of activities. And like, Hannah, do you want to go to the hypnotist show? And she's like, yeah, no, I'll pass on that, you know, but they have stuff that you can do, you know, on site. [00:28:23.210] - Tamara Gruber And otherwise it's like so accessible to so many things there. We went to Portsmouth, New Hampshire one day, which is like a really nice historic downtown, kind of like a Portland, Maine, that you've been to cobblestone streets like, you know, little downtown, like lots of great restaurants and shops and things. So we did that one day. And then the next day when we were leaving, we went to Newbury Port in Massachusetts, which similar kind of on the water, cute town harbor, cobblestone streets, shops and things like that, which I had promised Hannah I would take her to a bookstore. [00:28:56.000] - Tamara Gruber And so she was like, be lining for that bookstore. But she was happy because she came back with a bag full of books. But, you know, it was just like a nice little getaway. And we have not done very much of that, you know, even beyond covid, just like in the school year during high school. So it was really nice and it was nice that Hanna was like chill and relaxed about it. And, you know, we went to lunch one day, actually both days we went out to lunch. [00:29:23.170] - Tamara Gruber I will tell you, it was funny story, though. So when we got up there, we were running a little bit late. And I'm like, we have to get there before it turns dark because I need to take pictures, you know? You know what that's like. [00:29:32.720] - Kim Tate I know that I planned vacations with knowing and I need to get to an area. If I could tell you our safari west spring break, I'd understand anyways. [00:29:42.710] - Tamara Gruber So, of course, like Glenn's on phone calls and he has like every day he has like a five thirty phone call or whatever. So I'm like, you know, driving. And he's like on the phone in the car and I'm like racing up the highway trying to get there. And so then we get there and the office is closed and I'm like, oh my God, we can't even get any cell phone coverage. Like who do I call what I do. [00:30:02.000] - Tamara Gruber Luckily there was like the keys were left in a mailbox. It just took a minute to figure that out. So we get there and I'm like, OK, we need to start dinner right away because we had these burgers. So I figured, OK, that night when we get there, we're just going to make dinner there. And then the next night we'll go out to dinner because I don't like to cook every night when we're like on vacation because, yeah, of course you want to chill out, but I'm like, I don't know what's going to be around. [00:30:25.130] - Tamara Gruber Let's like bring stuff to cook like that night. So I saw it was a charcoal grill. We have a gas grill at home, so I don't really know how to cook on charcoal. But like I did it when I was at auto camp, I just bought charcoal from them and I lit it with a match and it lit and it was fine and it was all good. So we get down there and we had this old bag of charcoal. [00:30:45.320] - Tamara Gruber I put it in there. So I'm like, OK, you guys like, start the fire, I'm going to take the pictures. And then I come out and like, Glenn could not get this fire going. Like he's like trying everything to get this charcoal. And of course, we can't go buy charcoal like lighter fluid because the store is closed and we have no idea where, like, the closest whatever is, you know, and it's already like getting dark. [00:31:04.850] - Tamara Gruber And I forgot to bring, like, the headlamp, you know, I'm like, oh, we can't even see what we're doing out here. So, you know, he's trying he's trying to get it going and it and we were already late, like, we didn't get there until almost eight o'clock. And so we're like, is there even going to be a place to get food that's still open? And, you know, so he's like trying to get on the wi fi to try to find, you know, and he was like, pick up some food. [00:31:26.540] - Tamara Gruber So that just we're not, like, starving that night. I mean, I brought, like, snacks, but we were hungry. [00:31:30.480] - Kim Tate Right. [00:31:31.430] - Tamara Gruber And so then I'm like, OK, there's a stovetop here, there's a frying pan. I'm just going to cook the burgers on the stove top like. Granted, it's going to take a while to the frying pan fits like one burger at a time, but I'm going to go ahead and do this. So I start cooking it and the whole place, like, fills with smoke. And I'm like, I don't know how that smoke detector didn't go off. [00:31:51.560] - Tamara Gruber So I'm like opening every window in the place and trying to, you know, when you're like the smoke alarms going off and you're like when you're fanning it. [00:31:58.250] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, yeah. So I'm like trying to push the smoke out the window and I'm trying to find is there an exhaust fan? And I'm turning on the fan from like the bathroom trying to get anything to suck the smoke out of there. And so Glenn is like, that's it. I'm just going to like get a pizza. He's like, just turn it off. And I'm like, well, now these burgers are like like half. What do I do? [00:32:16.820] - Tamara Gruber And so he calls and he's like, I'm just going to go get a pizza. So he goes and he leaves because he's like, I have to get there. They close at 9:00, I have to get there. So I'm like, OK, go, go, go. And then I like come out and I see Hannah still trying to work on the charcoal she's got and she has like the coals kind of going. So I'm like good job honey. [00:32:34.640] - Tamara Gruber I'm like, OK, I'm gonna bring these burgers that I'm like half cooked in the pan will put the other half over the charcoal. So, you know, but we can't see what we're doing. It's like pitch black. I like did Dad even clean the great or am I putting like my burger on some like disgusting, like dirty thing, you know, and so we start cooking the burgers out there and the first two are like, OK, those are done. [00:32:56.570] - Tamara Gruber So I'm unwrapping the other two to bring out and have them start to cook. And so meanwhile, like Hannah and I are sharing a burger while Glenn's like sitting waiting for pizza, because then the pizza place is like really backed up. He ends up not getting back until almost 10:00 at night with the pizza. Meanwhile, we've already had like a burger and a half to try to cook these other two burgers. And the coals just will not keep they're just dying. [00:33:21.380] - Tamara Gruber They're dying. We cannot get them going. So then I have like, these gray pretty much raw burgers and I'm like, what am I going to do with it? And it's grossing me out. And I'm like, you know, like raw meat, like whatever. So like, I have nothing to even wrap it in. Glenn's like, well, don't just throw them out. Those were like good burgers. I'm like, well what are we going to do it. [00:33:39.410] - Tamara Gruber Like what, where are we cooking these things? You know, so they cover them up and put them in the fridge. I'm like, OK, fine. So I had them on a plate and I put like a bowl on top of it and put it in the fridge. And then the next one we're finally leaving because we never cooked the burgers. I'm like, now you're going to have, like, stinky rotting meat, like in the garbage. So we were like tying it up in bags so it wouldn't smell and wasn't disgusting. But anyway, that's my terrible story about trying to cook while we're at the tiny house. [00:34:06.860] - Kim Tate Oh my goodness, that is so funny. It's just this is family travel. [00:34:12.470] - Kim Tate Like I feel like all of us who have traveled with kids have been in a situation like that where your food is such a stressor. There's all these like different levels. And if something can go wrong on a family vacation, you know, there's a good chance it will. [00:34:26.870] - Tamara Gruber So I thought I had it figured out. I was like, yeah, like, you can eat well. [00:34:31.300] - Kim Tate I mean, well, we all have so much experience on this, but inevitably something still is like, oh, I hadn't planned for that. Like, OK, now, you know, you need to pack coals and lighter fluid. [00:34:41.210] - Tamara Gruber Right. [00:34:41.930] - Kim Tate And flashlights. Although did you use your phone flashlight you could have used. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were using it. So funny. Oh my. OK, so well you know after any other parts of that stay that you want to mention, was it a nice it looked like a cute little place and a nice getaway. [00:34:57.320] - Tamara Gruber It was like I definitely you know, I would recommend it. It was so much more affordable too than some of the other glamping kind of things that are out there, because it starts, I think, around one hundred and forty five or a hundred and fifty dollars a night, you know, for this space, which, you know, I thought was pretty good. So it slept. I think that one could sleep up to six, but that would be really tight. [00:35:18.200] - Tamara Gruber So basically, like downstairs, it had a couch that could fold open. It had a table with three chairs. It had the kitchen, tiny little bathroom. And then you went up a flight of stairs to the sleeping loft. But the thing is, like the loft, it's not like full size. You can't stand up up there. Right. So basically, like, you walked up the stairs and then kind of crawled onto the bed and fell asleep. [00:35:38.660] - Tamara Gruber And there was a queen and a double, just like on the, you know, on the ground, like the mattresses on the ground. But it was fine, like it was comfortable and we enjoyed it. It was very different. You know, we had fun. It was just nice to be away. We like sat and like, you know, looked and watched the pond, like we took a little walk and then we went and did those excursions, you know, on those days. [00:36:00.140] - Tamara Gruber So it's just like a chill, you know, getaway. It wasn't about like we're doing a lot of stuff. [00:36:05.570] - Kim Tate Awesome. So then the final trip of your, you know, massive travel reopening, you know, it was a couple's getaway. So tell us all about that. [00:36:16.280] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So my nephew was getting married down outside of Philadelphia. And, you know, we were all invited, but Hannah had to study for exams and she also wasn't fully vaccinated, so she wasn't really comfortable to go and do that quite yet. And so then I decided that we were going to go and we actually left her alone for the first. Oh, nice. Which is like big and that week was actually the first time that she drove on her own because like we you know, she got her license a month ago, but she's still like only driven with me in the car, you know, like she hasn't gone to see her friends or anything like that. [00:36:52.770] - Tamara Gruber It's just like the way it's a little bit hard because, you know, she lives a half hour away from school, half hour away from her friends. So, you know, anything that she's going to go do is like, you know, getting on the highway. It's like a bigger thing, like she does it with me. But just to do it on her own, you know, she hasn't had the opportunity. She hasn't asked for it. [00:37:11.360] - Tamara Gruber And then she's not the type to be like, oh, I want to go to Dunkin Donuts. Like, it's funny because sometimes I've been like, hey, why don't you go do this? And she's like, but then I have to buy something. Then I have to talk to someone. And she's like, well, how do I do it? Like, I'm like, well, you have a debit card. And she's like, Yeah, what do I do? [00:37:30.740] - Tamara Gruber Put a pin in? And I'm like, I don't know, like I don't use a debit card like cash. So it's just really funny. But it's one of those things I think. I'm sure you've experienced this with your teens, but it seems like a big deal until it's done. And so, you know, there was all this like I don't know if I'm ready to drive on my own. I don't know. I don't know. And so earlier that week, she had something out at there, like the schools, like farm campus, which is a little bit easier to get to. [00:37:56.720] - Tamara Gruber And it's you don't have to parallel park on a very small city street. There's a parking lot. So I'm like, hey, why don't you drive yourself? And she's like, what? It's like, drive yourself. So she did it. And it was like, you know, this major milestone. And she came back. She's like, Yeah, it's fine. [00:38:11.720] - Kim Tate Nice! [00:38:15.980] - Tamara Gruber and then they did it and they're like, What are you talking about? I just never worried about that. [00:38:19.770] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:38:21.290] - Tamara Gruber You're all you're making it all up, you know. So we went away and she did have to drive herself to go to her friends, the school play there in the school play. So she did that and she cooked herself dinner and cleaned up after herself. So she had her first little independence. [00:38:36.140] - Kim Tate That's good. Yeah, it's kind of yeah. It's been nice with Lizzie. She has a job now and stuff and she has a lot of her own money and she, you know, is responsible now. She books her own hair appointments and she's totally done shopping on her own. She buys stuff online. She's fully it's nice. It's been really it's definitely a step in independence when they have their own money and they learn to start making choices with that money. [00:39:00.230] - Kim Tate And it's cool. So, yeah. [00:39:02.700] - Tamara Gruber I guess it's yeah, we're at the beginning of that road. I know it'll probably snowball and go quickly like once it starts. But it's kind of neat to watch. But it was good. I mean we were nervous but she's such a she's a good kid. I mean when we were leaving Glenn's like we're still through any house parties and she's like, Dad, I have to study. [00:39:22.160] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it was also your anniversary. [00:39:28.790] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So it was our twenty first anniversary and obviously we didn't really do much last year. And so I was like, look, you know, we can stay at like the best western near the place where the where the wedding is taking place. Or we can just stay in downtown Philadelphia. Nice hotel and make a weekend of it. So we're like, yeah, let's make a weekend of it. So we went down and we stayed at the Kimpton Hotel Monaco, which I've stayed at before when I was in Philadelphia. [00:39:52.160] - Tamara Gruber And it's such a great location. Like, I just I love Philadelphia. I know you haven't been, but it's like it's just, you know, [00:39:57.770] - Kim Tate I was there with you once! We went for a one day conference. We took the train from New York. It was my first, like, East Coast train experience. Yeah. Yeah. But I didn't really see much of Philadelphia, so yeah. I've been there. [00:40:12.440] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I think where we stayed was more like Center City and this was more like Old City. So it's right, right across from like Independence Hall, the Liberty Bell. So you just have like some cobblestone streets, you have all this history right there. There's a lot of green space around like a lot of parks. It's just a nice part of town. I really like staying there. And I just feel like Philadelphia in general, it's just it's cleaner. [00:40:35.000] - Tamara Gruber It's like not as busy, but there's still like a good vibe to it. You know, it's still an energy. And this was our first experience, like kind of being in a city post, vaccination, you know, feel like it's nice out and just feeling kind of normal ish. And it was it's actually really cool. So we we arrived again. We're like racing, you know, because Glenn's phone calls and all that stuff, you know. [00:40:58.220] - Tamara Gruber So racing into town, I had made a nine thirty dinner reservation for us because I'm like, look, we can either stop an eat like whatever crap on the New Jersey Turnpike or we can get into town and just eat late but have a good dinner. And there's this place called Buddakan that I've always wanted to try, and it's like a three minute walk from our hotel. So I'm like, let's just go there. So I thought for sure we weren't going to make it because Friday night traffic and everything like that. [00:41:22.130] - Tamara Gruber But we kind of like skidded in just in time. And I'm like, Glenn, go check the valet and I'm going to go like walk down and make sure that our table's kept. So we we were doing like outdoor dining, but the way that they've done it is they've built like almost like little individual booths. So it's like a protected kind of space, but there was like a barrier in between each table, so it was really, really cool. [00:41:43.330] - Tamara Gruber The dinner was fantastic. And then, you know, when it comes to good dinner stories, OK, I, I shared this on my Instagram story, but this story is still kind of blows me away. But we were having dinner and the table next to us, they were celebrating a fiftieth birthday. It was like a group of women friends and you know, so when they were singing Happy Birthday to her, we clapped and we were just like wishing them happy birthday. [00:42:06.190] - Tamara Gruber And then someone came along the street and he was like looking for money. And, you know, first Glenn was kind of trying not to pay attention because we were having our dinner. But then we you know, the guy I don't know if his story was true or not, but he's like, I served the country for 20 years was that, you know, I'm a vet and like all this stuff and I'm down on my luck and have four year old daughter. [00:42:26.020] - Tamara Gruber And we're like, oh, you know, like it just it was we were in a tough spot. So, Glenn, I gave him some money and he left. And then, like, the people next to us were like, oh, that was so nice that you did that. Like, I'm so glad you didn't come to our table because we wouldn't have done that or whatever. And so at the end of the meal, you know, Glenn, I just like we're just really enjoying, like, being out the two of us having a great dinner, great experience, just like a nice energy around. [00:42:48.580] - Tamara Gruber But we felt like super safe because, I mean, first of all, we're outside we're vaccinated. It's all like, you know, distanced and everything. And and then the woman from the table next to us comes over. She puts a receipt on her table and she was like, your dinner is taken care of. And she walked away. And we're like, what? Because this was like our anniversary dinner. We were not like holding back, like it was not a budget dinner. [00:43:13.240] - Tamara Gruber And she paid for our dinner. [00:43:15.490] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's also it was unbelievable. Like, I was like, oh, cool. [00:43:19.240] - Tamara Gruber This is a time when I feel like so much distrust over other people and fear and like, you're just getting used to being around other people again. And here is this woman comes over and just like pays for our dinner just because she thought Glenn did something nice. And I'm like, wow. [00:43:37.120] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's amazing. That's awesome. Yeah. [00:43:39.520] - Tamara Gruber So it kind of started our a weekend off great. But we had a wonderful weekend, just like exploring, you know, like walking around Philadelphia was like ninety degrees. So it was like boiling. We were it was just great. We were outside and just enjoying it. We stopped on Saturday that this independence beer garden near the hotel. So it's just all this outdoor space really cutely designed, you know, some of it shaded just a beer garden. [00:44:04.600] - Tamara Gruber So we hung out there for a while, had had some lunch, and then we went, you know, got dressed and we went to the wedding. And then on Sunday, we just had brunch. And then we drove back home, which that was a nightmare, but it was just nice. Yes. I've had a little bit of every kind of travel, which is really nice. I really. What is that? Is it. Yeah, I think that sounds so great. [00:44:25.720] - Kim Tate I'm so excited about travel reopening and I think the biggest thing is now I'm it seems like everybody wants to travel again now. And so I feel like things are more busier than ever, and especially if some places are still not fully staffed and or have capacity limitations. I just I still wonder if we're quite there yet where it's normal. I feel like there's people are ready to travel, but whether the industry can handle it right now is where am I, where my worry is. [00:44:53.950] - Tamara Gruber I agree. And I do think that there's going to be some both disappointment and frustration this summer because of that. I think people are going to find they're going to be very eager to have the perfect experience, but they need it, you know, after everything. And then they're going to get there and it's going to be crowded or service may be what they're expecting. And so I definitely think that if you can set your expectations, you know, a little bit lower, it would be good, because I just find, yeah, everything is going to be crowded and you are off the beaten path as you can get, you know, like the better. [00:45:27.160] - Kim Tate But avoiding national parks. Yeah, I agree too. Yeah. We so we jumped on because the girls really wanted to go to they miss Disney when we went down for spring break. Like I don't mean to be one of these crazy Disney families, but we do like Disney and the girls had really wanted to go to Disneyland again. And so I thought, well, you know, kind of the same situation with you. The summer right now is definitely the only time we can really travel, because Lizzy, going into our senior year and with college applications, everything, it's just not a lot of flexible time. [00:45:56.860] - Kim Tate And she has a job. And so we booked a trip for mid-July for Disneyland. I thought this is going to be a great time to go. We're hoping that it's opened out of staters. I mean, they're saying that they think it's going to happen in June. And they but now with the worry over if they're going to reopen everything at one hundred percent, which is what California is going to do starting June 15th, we're just worried, like, are we going to end up in the summer at Disneyland with eight million crowds? [00:46:23.530] - Kim Tate Like, I don't know what their capacity is. So, yeah, I think it's people we're all I mean, I was hopeful. I was so excited like twenty five. Thirty five percent capacity. That sounds awesome. Like, OK, let's use our hard earned money to buy this communication and now I'm kind of regretting it and. Yeah, I think everybody just going to have to really keep in mind what I don't even know what I'm trying to say, but just have a little bit of ability to be relaxed and, yeah, expect crowds and maybe slower service than you might think. [00:46:54.720] - Tamara Gruber It's going to be tough as things continue to to change. And I you know, I feel bad for the people. Like I know some of the people that I follow on Instagram now had booked a trip to Disney World and was super excited about it. But then, like before they got there, they dropped the mask mandate. And, you know, and so her experience there is not at all what she expected it to be. [00:47:20.460] - Tamara Gruber And that changed on a dime. Know. So it's. [00:47:22.710] - Kim Tate Yeah, they made that decision quickly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, we are lucky that all four of our family will be vaccinated, and that's a huge relief. [00:47:34.150] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, I feel actually as of today, Hannah is fully vaccinated. So I've said that many times. Like I feel today when we're recording this, I feel very fortunate, you know, that we're in that position. I definitely you know, I feel for the families that are dealing with having younger kids and then feeling, you know, maybe not as safe because of the some of the restrictions have been lifted. And, you know, but they're still vulnerable. [00:48:03.030] - Tamara Gruber So it's it's a challenging time to continue to navigate and hopefully have a little bit of, like you said, patience. But also just share a little love, I guess. Yeah, I'm still feeling it from my experience. [00:48:15.450] - Kim Tate Well, that should teach everyone be kind to your neighbor. Yeah, well, it's been great to chat with you and hear about all those trips. And I'm sure that if anybody has any questions for you, they can always reach out to you on your social media @we3travel. So I know our next episode is going to be about another one of your travel adventures in the Northeast. So why don't you give everyone a teaser about where we'll be talking about next? [00:48:38.040] - Tamara Gruber Yes, my next trip is to Maine, which you and I have been to, and I'm going back to some of that region, but I'm first going to do a trip along the coast and so hitting a lot of the coastal towns of Maine. And then I will be up in what they call down east, which is the area around Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park. But I'm going to be doing exactly what I'm recommending everyone else do, which is do the stuff outside of the national park, you know, the bit off the beaten path kind of stuff. [00:49:09.000] - Tamara Gruber And then I'm going to head up into the Maine Highlands, which is around Bangor, and then like Baxter State Park and some of the kind of lakes and mountains area, a little bit, you know, close to where you and I were when we had our girls trip up there. And so definitely getting like a little off the grid, you know, off the the beaten path. And so I can't wait to share that because I think it's going to be a good option for families, at least those in driving distance to the northeast or flying this summer. [00:49:38.730] - Tamara Gruber I think it'll be a good option. So, yeah. So stay tuned for that one. And then I guess after that, we're going to be talking about your travel and my travel. And we've got other topics coming up. So definitely stay tuned.

god love new york amazon california disney mother travel colorado seattle philadelphia dad portland massachusetts louisiana memorial day happy birthday new england maine manchester disneyland new hampshire east coast vermont wifi fishing disney world founded rhode island rv northeast abraham lincoln thirty americana vineyard granted usb bluetooth cape portsmouth cape cod maple yosemite sonoma dunkin donuts santa rosa tiny houses catskills land rover pullman glamping marthas vineyard rvs bangor globes airstream bennington norman rockwell old city adirondack goodwood montpelier liberty bell newburyport center city acadia national park russian river independence hall bar harbor orvis safe travels brattleboro killington woods hole plexiglas new jersey turnpike jefferson parish southern vermont airstreams baxter state park full episode transcript old city philadelphia tamara gruber vacation mavens announcer welcome we3travel stuffed suitcase

190 West Coast Road Trip - Oregon to Central California

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 1, 2021 60:43

This week Kim gives us the download about her West Coast road trip from Seattle to Los Angeles, California. Planning a West Coast Road Trip Driving from Seattle to Southern California takes about three days if you want to take the scenic routes and make stops along the way. Ideally you will take 10-14 days for this trip. However, if you have less time you can drive from Seattle to Southern California and then fly home. The best way to take the trip is from north to south (Seattle to LA) versus south to north because you will have better views and the scenic pullouts will be on your side of the road. Try to plan no more than four hours of driving time a day to leave plenty of time for stops and attractions. There are three main routes that you can take once you are in California. The fastest route is on Interstate 5. Highway 1 is the coastal route which is the slowest but most scenic. Highway 101 will still take you through vineyards and farms with some scenic attractions but it is faster than Highway 1. You can start in Seattle or Portland, Oregon. If you start in Seattle, cut over to the Olympic Peninsula where you can see the Hoh Rainforest, Rialto Beach, Ruby Beach, and the famous tree of life before hitting some of Washington's small beach towns like Long Beach and Ocean Shores. On Kim's trip they drove straight to the Oregon border and stayed the first night in Astoria, which is a neat little town where the Goonies was filmed. You can also visit the Naval Maritime Museum. If you are traveling in the summer of 2021, keep in mind that many restaurants are still understaffed or not fully open so plan accordingly as these small towns get very crowded and overwhelmed with tourists, especially on the weekend. A few other stops in Oregon should include: Cannon Beach with Haystack Rock, Tillamook Creamery, Devil's Punchbowl, and the Oregon Dunes Recreation Area, and Agate Beach. Kim stayed her second night in Klamath on the Oregon/California border (be aware that there is major road construction going on in this area.) On the Oregon coast, check the tide charts to know when the high and low tides are because it can make a big difference in the experience. Try to avoid weekends in the small touristy town as much as possible. Google will also sometimes give predictions on when the busiest times are for attractions, which can help plan your itinerary. In Northern California, Kim stopped at the drive through tree in Klamath, Trees of Mystery, and Avenue of the Giants in the Redwoods. On the third night, Kim stayed in Ukiah, CA. The next day, Kim and the girls stayed in a glamping tent at Safari West and got to do the drive through safari. Kim then spent two nights in Monterey (read all about things to do in Monterey) and did an e-bike tour with Mad Dogs and Englishmen and visited Pacific Grove, staying at the Hyatt Regency Monterey Hotel and Spa. In Monterey, Kim recommends eating at Rio Grill, Alta Bakery, and Lucy's on Lighthouse, which is a hot dog stand with a skateboard theme. Keep in mind that highway 1 is often closed by Big Sur because of landslides so always check ahead to see what is open and take Highway 101 as an alternate. You can drive as far south as Bixby Bridge, but be careful and stay within the boundaries when taking a picture. Lily Valley is another great stop where wild calla lillies grow. If you are going to hike to the Hollywood sign, look for options for a four-mile hike, versus the six-mile hike from the Griffith Observatory, and go mid-week if you can. There is then so much more to do in Southern California but what Kim did would be at least a 7-8 day trip. Read Kim's Olympic National Park itinerary Read all about Kim's West Coast Road Trip itinerary and tips Read Tamara's tips for driving from San Francisco to Cambria on Highway 1 [00:00:00.060] - Kim Tate Today, we're winding down the West Coast. [00:00:14.880] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:29.820] - Tamara Gruber Today's episode is brought to us by Safe Travels Kit, which does exactly what it sounds like and it helps keep you safe when you're traveling, whether it's on an airplane, a train or even in the car, it is all in one little pouch that includes a seat cover and a pillowcase and sanitizing wipes and a face mask. What I love about it is that it's super soft. So, Kim, the material, you know how sensitive my skin is, but if I'm going to put my face on a pillow case, I want it to be like super soft and comfortable. [00:00:57.660] - Kim Tate And I love that part. And if there's anything that we've learned in this last years that there's a lot of germs out there and now I'm even more like not wanting them to touch me, definitely. [00:01:07.950] - Kim Tate I can't even imagine using one of those airplane pillows at this point where you're never quite sure if they actually changed that white little non soft cover that they put over them. [00:01:18.450] - Tamara Gruber Definitely. So this is very easy to pack in your carry on. It's actually sold on Amazon as well as you'll find it in many of the Brookstone airport stores or in Bloomingdale's. But you can find it on Safe Travels, Kit.Com, and we thank them for their support. [00:01:35.360] - Tamara Gruber So, Kim, I know that your West Coast road trip feels like probably ancient history by now, but I know that we wanted to come back to it and really do a deep dive because so many of our listeners have planned on doing some type of California or West Coast road trip. [00:01:52.010] - Tamara Gruber So I thought it'd be really helpful if we could, you know, talk about what you've done. And I know that you've done this trip quite a few times. You have a lot of knowledge to share. But can you fill us in, I know you did, what, two weeks down back in April from Washington down to California. But give us an idea of what was your overall itinerary like? [00:02:14.890] - Kim Tate So in this trip, yeah, we had two weeks, but part of that was because we were going to hang out with friends at the end of our trip and then spent three days getting home. So I would say for this trip, we just focused on mainly driving along the Oregon coast and California coast a bit and then headed over and near Santa Barbara where we stopped, which is kind of the southern central. It maybe is considered like the northern tip of, I consider central California. [00:02:44.140] - Kim Tate But some people might think it's kind of So Cal because it's near L.A. But I think of L.A. is kind of the northern part of SoCal. So anyways, that was a long ramble. So I would say we spent 14 days, but of that, we took about a five day, five to seven days to drive down. That's the timeline. I think that there's a few options. Like you said, we've done this trip quite a bit. [00:03:07.850] - Kim Tate When we were going to Disneyland and spent a few days in Disneyland and we actually did a one way car rental and we drove from Seattle down and just did kind of the California coast and then stayed in Disneyland for a couple of days and then flew home to help save as much time as possible. So I definitely think that's an option for people. This trip, we actually did some of the Oregon coast and then California coast, which again is adds time and all of these things. [00:03:34.360] - Kim Tate You just have to think about how much time you have. And then another option, if we had a lot of extra time and didn't want to spend as much time like in California being a tourist in California, if that makes sense, if you're just in it for the road trip, then adding the or The Washington Post, which is basically Olympic National Park, the Olympic Peninsula and a few of the Washington Southern Washington coastal beach towns, that's another option as well. [00:03:59.020] - Kim Tate So I think if people are looking at a timeline, then it's going to depend on how much time you have on how much you can do. [00:04:07.120] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, like what things you need to skip or whether you're taking the highway or the coastal route. And I mean, obviously the point of this is to see as much of the scenic parts as you can. So nobody wants to spend all of their time on the interstate. And I definitely think if people are from not from that area. So if you're coming from the East Coast, like us you would want to fly in and then just do it one way. [00:04:29.530] - Tamara Gruber And if you did that, do you think which do you like better? Do you like the north to south or the south to north? [00:04:34.510] - Kim Tate This is a huge, huge tip I have. And this I actually wrote this in my West Coast road trip post. I think north to south is the only way to go. Absolutely. And the reason I say that is for two reasons. One, the driver's most always going to be focused on the road and for safety reasons. I think that's good. So I think it's good that the passenger gets to look out and can have a phone and take pictures if they want. [00:04:56.260] - Kim Tate But the bigger point that I think north to South works is because all the turnouts are on the, you know, far west side of the highway. And so if you're headed on the right side of the road, you are easily you have easy access to enter and exit the pull out into the lane of traffic as opposed to trying to cross traffic, which on busy you know, travel day is not a busy route like that. It actually can make a huge difference and kind of be a safety hindrance. [00:05:22.780] - Kim Tate So I think north to south is the way to go. [00:05:25.990] - Tamara Gruber Absolutely. I've only done, you know, a piece of it, you know, from basically San Francisco down to Central Coast. And I would totally agree. Definitely the better option, you know, from a driver and a passenger standpoint. [00:05:41.200] - Kim Tate Yeah. And I think a few other tips for just planning when people are thinking about this is this is the kind of route where you really need to allow a lot of spontaneity and stopping time. And so our first time we did this and I mentioned this before, we way over packed our drive times and we were looking at, you know, five hour days and stuff and then with stops and getting started and going in the morning and then traffic and winding roads. [00:06:08.080] - Kim Tate We we were getting into our next stop like at 7:00 or 8:00 at night sometimes. And it was just brutal. And so this trip, I tried to make sure that no day was longer than four hours and my target time for drive time each day was around three hours. So that's something to keep in mind that really, I think makes a difference in planning. It's not your typical, you know, open highway type road trip planning. It's a very I mean, you want to take it slow and easy. [00:06:35.080] - Kim Tate I'm sure some people would even want to do, you know, a couple of days in one place and then an hour and another day and, you know, take it really slow. But for us, I found the three hour mark, kind of the sweet spot. [00:06:46.270] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I mean, if you have the ability to do slow travel and you can take, you know, the summer. Yeah. And that's wonderful. But otherwise, yeah, you have to have some trade offs. But it's good that you gave yourself that extra time this time, especially since you were the only driver to. But it well I guess Lizzy could have driven, but it gives you, you know, a nice little break and it makes it much more relaxed. [00:07:07.720] - Tamara Gruber I hate that feeling of like I'm usually the one that wants to stop so the other people don't like mind skipping as much, but I hate that. Feeling of like missing out, you know, is something I really want to do, like how many times am I doing this trip? And so I hate like having to skip things that I wanted to do. But I also hate that feeling of like stress, like, are we going to get they're going to get there is going to be too late. [00:07:29.530] - Tamara Gruber Everyone's going to be so hungry, you know. [00:07:31.990] - Kim Tate Yeah, it can be horrible. And I'll just mention, like for people planning who are and pretend that people that maybe are not aware at all, even with all the extra time I had and trying to allow all this time, I still made some choices to shorten the trip. And so this is I'll give this little tip and information. I think people need to know that there's three main north south routes along, mainly along the California section. But this sort of applies to the Oregon and Washington, a little Oregon and Washington, the one and one on one, are kind of the same through a lot of it. [00:08:04.780] - Kim Tate So it's not as noticeable. But once you get past the redwood forests of Northern California, you kind of start having this choice of Highway one is what hugs the coast. That is the one that, you know, is right there on the coast. And it's extremely slow going, but it's extremely beautiful. And then you have the 101 that kind of juts over. And that's when you start to get into like wine country and some of the agriculture area. [00:08:31.180] - Kim Tate And you'll notice that the 1 and the 101 kind of travel together until you hit San Francisco and they kind of merge in a little bit together again. And then they split off again. And you're you're left with that same choice of the coastal routes versus the a little more. It's still coastal and not coastal, but it's still close to the coast in a way. But anyways, that's two things to know, that there are those two routes and they do separate. [00:08:54.040] - Kim Tate And it's a very different driving experience over time as well as visual like what you're going to see. And then, of course, Interstate five is the main interstate that runs north and south all the way up to the California border, to the I mean, the Canada border to the Mexico border. So for us, we went down along, you know, the one and then we actually cut over to the 101 because between like Santa Rosa and San Francisco, the one, it's beautiful. [00:09:20.410] - Kim Tate And there's some cool things to see. And like just north of San Francisco, you have Muir Woods, which is, you know, I've still never spent a lot of time on that side of the route. But it does add, you know, probably a couple of hours to what you would plan if you just went the 101, which is a little bit faster and more heavily trafficked. And then on our way home, we just drove by five the whole way because at that point we were just hurrying to get home. [00:09:48.850] - Kim Tate So when people. Yeah. So I just wanted to give you a heads up that there's three main routes that people need to think of. One's going to be your slowest. So if you want to do the one the whole way, you really need to allow a lot of time. [00:10:00.700] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, we've done part of the one. And I know what when we moved back up to San Francisco, we did the five and it was like, how did we just do that? And what, like an hour or two while the other took all day. And even that was kind of scenic because you go through so many like agricultural, like giant farms. And we realized like we're so much produce comes from. But yeah. So let's dig into your trip a little bit. [00:10:23.650] - Tamara Gruber So what like what was your first day like, where did you stop along the way. Like if you can walk us through some of your itinerary would be great. [00:10:31.240] - Kim Tate Yeah. So I think that like I said, if people are wanting to do this and they're not they don't live on the West Coast, Seattle is a great starting point. You could also do Portland, Oregon. That would be if you don't care about the Washington section of it. If you do want to do Seattle, you can do Seattle and then cross over onto the Olympic Peninsula and do your Washington side of the road trip, which is where you're going to see like the HOH Rain Forest. [00:10:54.130] - Kim Tate You're going to see some of the beautiful, like beaches like Rialto Beach, Ruby Beach, a few things on the Olympic Peninsula. You'll see that famous tree of life that some people maybe have seen. And then you'll come into a few of the popular little Washington State beach cities. I think Long Beach and Ocean Shores are two of the main ones right there, the the border. And then you can also cross there's a really cool bridge that you can cross into. [00:11:19.300] - Kim Tate But our first day we just drove I5 straight down to the Oregon border and then crossed over. And we stayed overnight in Astoria, Oregon, which we've been to before. It's kind of a neat little town. People may be familiar with it because of its famous for being the place where they filmed a lot of The Goonies. [00:11:37.690] - Tamara Gruber That's what I thought. [00:11:38.860] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. And they definitely have a kind of a seaside. They have a beautiful naval, kind of a fun Naval Maritime Museum. That's cool. So if you have a kid that is really into ships or even an adult that's really in the ships, that's a neat place. And the actual it's really neat to think because Astoria sits at the mouth of the Columbia River, which is a major, major, you know, like through route. And they have these pilot boat captains. [00:12:05.410] - Kim Tate And it's one of the most rigorous piloting, I don't know what you would call it, like waters. There's a lot of sandbars and a lot of heavy. Tides and currents, and so it's a very you know, it's you have to have a lot of skill and experience to be able to pilot a boat and help get the barges in and out of that that little Columbia River mouth. So it's kind of cool to learn about that history. So I think a story is that is cool that way. [00:12:31.440] - Kim Tate It's definitely a little bit of a grungy, you know, small northwest town. It's got some limited dining experiences, especially, you know, like we've talked about on our episodes. We hit there on a Saturday night and our dining experience was a headache. So just a heads up, if you are planning summertime trips around some of these smaller coastal towns, you really need to think ahead of your dinner time planning shows early. No, it's mostly just because there's only a few restaurants and then they have all these tourists that come in. [00:13:05.490] - Kim Tate And so you have, you know, to wait for an hour to order or they're a small little restaurant and so they have five tables. And so people are waiting to just get takeout, even if there's just a long line, because you only have if you don't want fast food, you only have like three restaurants to choose from to find food. So it's just kind of a tricky situation with that. So just a heads up on some of those. [00:13:27.360] - Kim Tate You know, the weekends, summer weekends we were traveling during spring break can just be a bit of a headache. We waited about an hour, just under an hour to order our food. And then it was another 40 minutes to actually get the food to take back to our hotel room. So, yeah. [00:13:43.250] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So some angry people at that point. [00:13:46.440] - Kim Tate Yeah. And we had that same experience in Port Angeles on the Olympic Peninsula when we did our Olympic National Park trip in August of 2020, we had the same thing where those smaller coastal towns are just not used to it. And so on the weekends when you have a bunch of tourists that come in, they just really flood the few restaurants that are available and they just are so small they don't have a lot of seating area. And then their take out program gets really bogged down. [00:14:11.460] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, and we should mention that we did do an episode on your Olympic National Park, a trip last year, so people can look that up. And I'm sure you have a post on your website about it too. I do too. [00:14:22.170] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So our first night was in Astoria, but we just basically got in there at night and that was probably the longest little stretch of our our drive, you know, of our trip. And then the next morning we set out and I had all these great. This is where you have to be, you know, fluid with a road trip. I had all these great plans. And of course, we're on the Oregon coast. [00:14:42.270] - Kim Tate It's going to be awesome. We were going to go to Cannon Beach and see the famous Haystack Rock, which, you know, we had never really seen. And it was disgusting whether it was blowing blowing winds like, you know, you're holding white knuckling the steering wheel. So when the you know, the winds, the rain is blowing sideways and it's just gross. So my day for that day was a little ruined because I had all these plans. [00:15:04.380] - Kim Tate So we were going to see Haystack Rock. We skipped we drove over there and kind of looked at it. But no, we didn't get out and hang out on the beach at all. And then we also were planning to go to the Tillamook Creamery, which is we've been to before. And it's really it's so funny because we went to years and years ago, it was actually when me we were headed down to California on this road trip for Mia's fifth birthday. [00:15:25.080] - Kim Tate So that gives you an idea. It's almost, you know, ten years, nine years and it's gone through. Evidently, everyone figured out that it's an awesome destination because they have fully made a whole tourist attraction museum tour system. And on a Sunday, it was jam packed with wall to wall, people waiting outside to get in because they had limited entrance. So we skipped the Tillamook Creamery because we didn't want to stand in line for hours outside. [00:15:55.170] - Kim Tate There's also a famous stop along the way called Devil's Punchbowl, which we skipped because of the weather. And then we finally we're going to end right around the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area. And again, because of the weather, we skipped that. So we got in really early to our, you know, best Western basic hotel in Reidsport. Oregon was where I kind of picked because it was near those dunes. And I thought it would be a fun a fun stopover, but it did not happen. [00:16:22.380] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, I it's so hard. Like we talked about, like, you know, letting go of things. I think, you know, you're a photographer. Like we both, you know, do this for work. It's it's sometimes it's not even just about missing seeing something, but it's like, oh, we had these dreams of like the pictures that you're going to get and, you know, how are you going to use them and you know all of that. [00:16:41.340] - Tamara Gruber And then you're like, yeah, now this does not cooperate at all. I've had so many of those experiences where it's like, oh, I'm going to get these epic photos. And you're like, yep, nope, that's not happening. Yeah, but I think I find it interesting, like what you're saying about Tillamook, because I feel like in general, like agritourism has become so much more popular. You know, it's just something that is, you know, of a lot more interest. [00:17:02.670] - Tamara Gruber And I really I think it's smart the way a lot of these farms and, you know, other makers have turned it into, you know, another revenue stream for them. You know, so it's interesting, I remember one time we were staying for a week on Cape Cod and it was pouring rain, so it's like opening the summer, like what are you going to do? You look like indoor stuff. And we're like, oh, let's go to the Cape Cod potato chip factory. [00:17:25.940] - Tamara Gruber And we stood outside in line, you know, with an umbrella overhead for like an hour. Yes. Get into like this potato chip factory where basically all we did was like shuffle down a hallway and like, look at the machines working. Yes, we know. Yeah, they went to the gift shop. But I'm like, you could have gone to the grocery store and bought like five different flavors, like, why did we do this? [00:17:44.070] - Kim Tate Yeah, yeah. That's what I was thinking. That's why we skipped Tillamook, because we kind of know already. I mean, it had been improved. So we thought, oh, it'll be neat to see it. And but you do you kind of just walk and you get to see the factory and, you know, the machines working. But it you know, it was a Sunday, too. So I was like, well, it's probably not really in operation right now because most of those factories also are just, you know, the the next day. [00:18:06.740] - Kim Tate Yeah. So anyways, we skipped it and. Yeah. Just kept going. But yeah, I think that's, that was our, that was our idea is like, oh it'll be nice, go inside and have those inside things since it's such a gross day. But everyone had that same idea here. But the next the fun thing was this was where I talked about once we got to our hotel, since we're there early, I kind of started looking the next day to see if there were any, you know, like dunes on that stretch on our next day out. [00:18:31.490] - Kim Tate And that was where I found that one random all trails where it was like some weird trailhead that held ten cars. And we went and it turned out to be this awesome, cool sand dune that we spent an hour at. So I think that, you know, it is fun when you can have those kind of things. [00:18:47.120] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's nice. You can find, you know, find something that you didn't plan on that makes up for the things that you missed. [00:18:53.690] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. And I think that's cool. You know, that would be something for people to know about, like the Oregon coast that I know California has it as well. There's you know, Pismo Beach is known and famous for their dunes. But that is something to just be known that Oregon is known for. And then as we made our way sort of south, we did, like I said, that scenic. It was like this scenic corridor that I saw from road trippers. [00:19:14.930] - Kim Tate And again, it's just on the road, basically. And you just turned off. We just turned off and parked and did a little hike. And it's where you start getting that feel a little more of the California, you know, rocky coastal feel of stuff. But it's cool because in Oregon, it was still very Pacific Northwest with lots of, you know, evergreen trees. And so it was kind of a neat feeling as you move south and just see a little bit how things start different, differing, a little. [00:19:42.650] - Kim Tate It's cool. [00:19:44.000] - Tamara Gruber It makes me kind of want to see that landscape. But, yeah, one of the things about the summer is like, Glen, no matter what we do, like, I need a different landscape. I'm super excited about the trips that I have coming up around New England. And, you know, really, I can't wait for it, but I really want just a different landscape. And I remember years ago when Hannah and I were driving through central Oregon and we landed in Portland, we did a little bit of the Columbia River Gorge. [00:20:07.130] - Tamara Gruber And then we started driving down to Bend and just driving through those forests, the pine forests of those towering trees. It's like we just don't have that here. And so, yeah, I'm picturing that as you're talking. Yeah. Like the redwoods and everything. Just kind of it's exciting to be in one of those types of forest. They're just so. Like magnificent. [00:20:25.910] - Kim Tate You know, it is it's a really it's a cool part of nature and it's fun. [00:20:30.170] - Kim Tate And when you do the whole coast, like, you know, Washington, Oregon, and then you make your way down into California, it's neat just to see, you know, when you're doing it on one trip like that, it's fun to go, wow, you know, things really start changing and feeling different. And it's cool. It's neat and fun. So, yeah, but then we so we kind of stayed overnight, right at the. [00:20:51.140] - Kim Tate It's kind of funny how this happened too, because we ended up staying overnight in Northern California, a place called Klamath, California. And the cool thing about that, that you know, how you everyone's mind you get lucky on something is there was major road construction. And this is something to keep in mind, you know, on these smaller routes. And it's where it's, you know, the piloted car allowance. Do you know where they it's only one lane open. [00:21:15.470] - Kim Tate And so they'll have like a truck that guides the, you know, northbound through and then the truck running right around three. [00:21:21.530] - Tamara Gruber So I've experienced that before. [00:21:22.930] - Kim Tate Yeah. So you know what I'm talking about. Well, we were crossing and it was right along the Oregon to California border and we were crossing and we didn't have any weight at all. We were like the fifth car and we got picked up on the next pilot and it was fine and didn't think anything of it. And then the next morning, like where we we're when we were getting out of the we were checking out of our hotel that we stayed at, they had notices all about like Oregon border, you know, construction and two hour delays. [00:21:51.470] - Kim Tate And so I was like, oh, my goodness. So that's something to keep in mind also is that when you're on those two lane highway routes, you have to really be mindful of construction and stuff because they that route, Highway One is so susceptible to landslides and, you know, erosion where they have to close the road down because they're doing major repairs. So it's just something to keep in mind and. We lucked out being, you know, kind of at the end of the day and doing that crossover. [00:22:18.210] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, well, it's funny, we were just talking, you know, on a recent episode about how bad the roads are and how much they need them fixed. I was thinking that today as I was driving Hannah home from school and there was road construction, two places that I had to, like, detour around. And I was like, you know, our roads are terrible, but why do they have to fix these? [00:22:37.360] - Kim Tate We get all mad. Really, right? Can it just happen magically? Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:43.380] - Tamara Gruber Well it sounds like that good that you avoided that. At least you got a good start. [00:22:47.730] - Kim Tate Yeah. So I do think that, you know, something to keep in mind is like weekends right now in this season of local road trip travel that I feel like people are doing weekends. If you can avoid weekends as much as possible, it's definitely the thing to know, especially on those small, like touristy coastal towns. It seems like a lot of locals are going to them as well and are doing things on the weekends so that you're getting tourists as well as locals that are just getting out of their house and trying to do something. [00:23:16.020] - Kim Tate And so just a heads up to people if you're planning a vacation at all, that's involving like smaller towns are road tripping, trying to avoid the weekends because that's something I noticed, not the most surprising. [00:23:27.720] - Tamara Gruber Everyone is so excited to do anything and everything. Yeah. I mean, I found any little thing that we try to do is, you know, it's busy. Everyone is excited to be out of the house. [00:23:38.680] - Kim Tate Exactly. Yeah. We have that experience. A couple places that I can mention, but definitely something I noticed. So as I said, we moved into Northern California and we were susceptible to billboard advertising, which how many people can actually say that? I didn't even know they worked anymore. But evidently when you have a 14 year old kid in your car, they can still work because my daughter saw this trees of mystery mentioned on the billboard as we were getting ready to cross into California. [00:24:06.160] - Kim Tate And she's like, I really want to do that. You know, I always see that. And I you know, I never let them stop because I've always got the schedule planned. I'm like, no, we don't have time. And so this time, since I did try and allow more flexibility, I called them and they the last entrance was like four or something. And they said we probably wouldn't make it in time. And so I told me I was like, well, let's go do we'll do the drive thru tree, which I had planned for in the morning, and then we'll do the trees of mystery thing in the morning. [00:24:32.310] - Kim Tate We'll just drive back up because it was about a ten minute is about ten minutes away from the hotel. So we backtracked a little, but it wasn't a big deal at all and that worked out perfect. So I would say try and have some flexibility with your planning, if you can at all. But it actually paid off because and here's another tip for people. We if you do like Google, if you do a search for Google, like for the destination. [00:24:56.310] - Kim Tate So, for instance, I did the tour through Tree in Klamath, California, and I had navigated to it or something. And sometimes you'll see Google will give you like it's busier than normal or they'll have you seen that where they give you a little line graphs and tell you how busy it is? Well, I noticed that on the daytime, like in the mornings, it's very busy, but in the evenings it's not busy at all. And I was like, well, this will actually work perfect. [00:25:21.870] - Kim Tate We'll go in on that Monday evening, get the pictures and do it because it's still fairly light out, you know, until 7:00 p.m. or so and do that. And then the next morning, it gave us time to go to Trees of Mystery. And we drove up and had no wait. And while we were there taking pictures, only one other car showed up. So that's the other thing to think about are some of these things. If you can actually, you know, eat somehow and then really use that, I would say it's the final two minutes, kind of it's like the five p.m. to seven, eight, especially in the summers. [00:25:50.610] - Kim Tate You can really push it to eight or nine with the longer daylight. I think that's a sweet spot of like avoiding a lot of crowds if you if the places are operational and open. [00:26:01.320] - Tamara Gruber So. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like typical dinnertime. Yeah, no. So if you can either eat earlier or eat late, but just make sure that places are open, especially in small places like that. But that's good. [00:26:12.780] - Kim Tate Well it's funny, the road trip routes, people kind of get to their hotels by four or five p.m. and they're kind of done for the day they go eat. And I mean, that's sort of what we would do. So then if you add something in during that time or go back out from your hotel, which is what you know, we did it, it really can pay off. [00:26:28.590] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. It's funny that you mention, though, the the roadside like advertising, because I actually like that part of road trips where it's advertising a an attraction, you know, and not just, you know, whatever business or lawyer, you know, fill up at Shell. Yeah. Yeah. So when we were driving to Steamboat Springs, I was probably about two hours on this like smaller road. And I can't even tell you how many signs it had to be like one hundred signs, just like every, you know, whatever number of feet advertising this one, like cowboy hat and cowboy boots off. [00:27:06.450] - Tamara Gruber So when we were in Steamboat Springs, we we had lunch there and then we walked around a little bit before we went to the ranch. I'm like, we have to go into this. Or I mean, they put so much effort into it, like not and we walked in and Glenn was like I'll be next door, I was like, OK, but I had to at least check it out. Yeah, exactly. Kind of like the wall drugs or, you know, of those sort of tourist attraction kind of places. [00:27:29.170] - Tamara Gruber I don't know. Yeah. It kind of makes me happy to see those kind of things. [00:27:32.050] - Kim Tate Yeah. There was another one in like southern Oregon that we kept passing signs for. That was like a wildlife drive through park thing. And the girls were like, oh, that's cool. And, you know, so, you know, it seems like that's the thing to do for some of those those attractions is probably how they get a lot of people. But again, that's where I say having some flexibility and not over scheduling your drive times allow you those a little bit of ability to be a little more spontaneous, which I think makes a road trip because and we've talked about this on our road trip thing where you needed to decide if the road trip is going to be just about getting to a destination or if the road trip is going to be a the the trip of itself. [00:28:11.770] - Kim Tate Right. [00:28:12.370] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. So so I'm getting from you, though, that the trees of mystery is worth skipping, whatever that mystery is. [00:28:20.290] - Kim Tate I think it depends. It was definitely like it's a little pricey. It's like 20 dollars a person. So but if you we had fun. It's like rope walks and then you take like a little gondola way high on a hill. And the look from the hill isn't anything fun. But the girls had fun riding in the gondola and I mean, walking through the bridges, through the trees is fun. [00:28:44.530] - Kim Tate And the girls liked that. But it's short. And I mean, I think I'd be more comfortable at the ten dollars per person mark. However, you know, I don't regret going. And the girls enjoyed it. And it was a good way to stretch your legs and stuff. And it's kind of a fun way to it's a quirky roadside attraction. It was the one thing where we saw it definitely was attract a lot of out-of-state tourists. We saw a lot of out-of-state plates in the parking lot. [00:29:09.550] - Kim Tate We did see a lower mask compliance, just like passing people because it's outdoors and stuff. And this is where the outdoor like if you're vaccinated. So it I think it just attracts like it's an outdoorsy type place. So I could see that it could get really crowded on a weekend. Yeah. We definitely by the time we left, so it was good because we got up early because we are and like I say, we were only ten minutes away from our hotel. [00:29:31.990] - Kim Tate We got up early, went there and it was it was great. I mean, we weren't like maybe it seemed like there was five other people there same night we were. But when we came out, it was just packed. And so we probably were leaving around eleven ish and we got there around nine thirty and. Yeah. Yeah. So that gives you an idea of just earlier the better for that thing. Right. Yeah. So then we entered into the redwoods as always that we've been to before. [00:30:00.190] - Kim Tate We did notice something weird, like the main exit I normally take because I wanted to drive along like the Prairie Creek Road. They had that closed for some reason. So I went south and I could have come back in from the north route. But I don't know why they had it closed for any reason. But we decided to skip that little leg of it and just kept going. But here's something to think about. If you are doing a coastal trip and this is something that I mentioned in my Olympic National Park Post, and it also matters. [00:30:28.360] - Kim Tate On the Oregon coast you really need to become familiar with tide charts when you're on the West Coast. And I'm sure the East Coast is the same thing. But it it makes a difference when you're expecting these great like things. One of the things we looked at that I wanted to do is called Agate Beach, and it's supposed to be a really popular place where you go and you can walk along a pretty beach and find these really cool Agate rocks and kind of collect some if you want. [00:30:54.370] - Kim Tate And we found out, though, as we were coming through and looked at the tide schedule, that we are going to be there basically smack dab at high tide. It seems like it's not finding any rocks. Yeah. So we wouldn't and so I pulled in and it was a ten dollar. I thought, well, we'll still go look and see, but it was ten dollar, you know, park admission. And so I asked the they had a actually they had a park ranger on site there. [00:31:17.560] - Kim Tate And so I asked if they had a you know, if it was even worth going down there. And he was like not really, not during high tide. So just something to keep in mind that if you're doing any like beach visits and things like that, that it can really make a difference depending on the tide charts. [00:31:31.810] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I feel like I saw that recently. Someone had posted something somewhere about the sea glass beach that you had gone to in the past, much in the past. [00:31:40.270] - Tamara Gruber And they were super disappointed with it. And I was like, oh, that's interesting because someone else, you know, really liked it. So clearly it's a different experience, depending on if you're there, you can actually collect sea glass or not. [00:31:51.430] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that makes a difference. You know, we had the same thing, like with tide pools, like when the tide pool, when things are really high, the tide pools aren't as cool, you know, because sure, you can't walk out and see all the pools. And so you want to visit during low tide. And then something to keep in mind is it's always good when you look at the charts, you always kind of want the tide to be leaving as opposed to the tide come. [00:32:13.520] - Kim Tate And because if you happen to go around like a jut that seems like it's dry at the time, but the tides coming in, suddenly you turn around to go back to where you parked or whatever, and it used to be a beach and now it's, you know, two feet underwater. And so that's just something to keep in mind when you're doing an app for that or just just the weather app that shows you the the tides as well. I just do Google searches and I click on one of the websites that does the tides. [00:32:39.530] - Kim Tate I don't use just a general weather one. I definitely do like a specific, but I don't have an app. I'm sure you could install an app. I just do a Google search for it and I just search for the destination. So if I'm like I beach or it was called some park, you know, tide schedule and you can normally find a few different ones and I'll show you. And there's, you know, it'll show you like low tide times. [00:32:59.030] - Kim Tate And based on the chart they give you, you can easily figure out if the tides leaving or the tides coming in. And then we kind of the big thing we did was the Avenue of the Giants, which is one of my favorite parts of the Redwood Forest. And so we still did that. And even though we've done the redwoods a lot in, the girls are just kind of like your mom. I don't need to do any hikes. And I accepted that. [00:33:20.330] - Kim Tate I was like, yeah, we've done a lot of like walking in the redwoods. We still pulled over. There's a lot of little turnouts and we still pulled over and tried to get kind of some fun, you know, like tree road drive shots, like tree road pictures. That's a tip is you know, that would be another thing that if you're there at night, like between five to seven, it would look so much better because with the sunlight dappling through the trees, it looks pretty. [00:33:42.170] - Kim Tate And it seems like it would be really pretty on like in photos. But it's not it doesn't look right at all. You definitely want the darker, moodier shot for those kind of shots. But sorry, that's a little photography talk. But we did have one little stop where we went and kind of explored a little. And there is this awesome big tree that the girls climbed on. And I got a fun picture on that, that you guys might have seen. [00:34:02.120] - Kim Tate Those of you who follow me on Instagram. Yeah. [00:34:04.340] - Tamara Gruber And reminded me of a shot that you and I had when we were in Santa Rosa. [00:34:08.450] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was even bigger than that tree at the Armstrong Woods in Santa Rosa. So it was kind of cool, but it was pretty epic. It was funny because I was taking these pictures with Lizzy and all of a sudden I'm like, Mia, where are you? And then she's like, I'm up here like thirty feet in the sky. It was crazy. But yeah. So we did the Avenue, the Giants, and then we went and stayed at a hotel just for the night to prepare for our two little kind of partnership things. [00:34:35.120] - Kim Tate So we the next day we headed into Santa Rosa. This was a funny I'll just share with people our little tip, because this is something fun that I want to share. We so the weather in Seattle is normally pretty moderate. I mean, we don't even have an air conditioner at our house that I think, you know. You know, that summer we hadn't had major harsh hot weather yet from this road trip. Mm. Especially being on the coast. [00:34:59.450] - Kim Tate Well, we stayed overnight in a place called Ukiah, and that was where we had kind of moved away from the redwoods in the coast. And we started moving inland at that point. And we woke up the next morning and we slept in it was asleep and day and got in the car and started driving. And it was boiling hot. I think by the I think when we left just before noon, the it was about seventy two or seventy three and then the temperature was going to hit like 81 or 82 that day. [00:35:26.780] - Kim Tate And we started driving and we're all like sweating and the air conditioner is not working. Like I'm literally like my shirt sticking to my back and we're like, oh my goodness. And I'm trying to get a hold of Paul. I'm driving or trying to call Paul. And he's in meetings all day. And he's normally my I'll be I'll admit, like he's definitely the car guy for us and the fix it guy. And we then decided, like, what am I going to do? [00:35:50.060] - Kim Tate And so I asked me to help look up a Honda dealership because thankfully this was a really short drive into Santa Rosa and there was a Honda dealership there. So I called them and said, here's the situation. We have a busy road trip. Like, I don't have any time, do you have any time to get in and look at it and maybe be able to fix it if it's something easy and they're like, yeah, go ahead, bring it on in. [00:36:09.410] - Kim Tate And I said, OK, we'll be there in forty minutes. We're on the road. And so then we pull into this Honda dealership and they tell us that it's a five hundred dollar diagnosis fee, like just to diagnose. I'm not even to fix it. And Lizzie jumps on because she's learned from her dad, she jumps on YouTube and she types in like a Honda Odyssey air conditioner not working. And she finds this YouTube video that she starts to watch. [00:36:34.850] - Kim Tate And in it, the guy talks about a Fuse, you know, they call it a Fuse. It's actually called a relay, I guess, or something. But she learned she's like, Mom, I watched this video. And there's just you take the you open the hood and you take off this lid on this thing and you use some pliers and pull out this thing. And I'm going, oh, great. You know, OK. And so we've sure enough find an auto autozone. [00:36:54.860] - Kim Tate I get a hold of Paul. Finally, he has a short break and he's like, yeah, just go ahead and try it. And, you know, I've got another Mini I can't talk. And so I'm like, OK, great. So I'm going to the AutoZone and Lizzy and I just are watching this YouTube video. And so we talk to the AutoZone. They don't have any pliers or anything we can use. They try and sell us a fuse puller, because of that point, Lizzy keeps calling it a Fuse, and so we buy this Fuse puller, we go out there and open it all up and are like, this doesn't fit. This is not what it is. And so we go back in and return that and ask the guy like, can we just borrow some pliers? Because Lizzie said that's what the guy used on YouTube. And we buy the had to buy pliers for ten dollars. [00:37:30.710] - Kim Tate And sure enough, we pull the piece, the part out that the guy recommended and take it into AutoZone. Do you guys sell this part? Nope, they don't sell it. So then we call Lizzy actually gets on the phone calls the Honda dealership that just told us they'd charge us five hundred dollars to diagnose it and asks if they have this part. Sure enough, they have the part for thirty four dollars. So we all hop in the car and drive back over to the Honda dealership, going to the parts department, buy the part in the parking lot. [00:37:56.240] - Kim Tate We swap out this little Fuse relay and put it all back together, turn on the car. We have air conditioning. So instead of spending five hundred dollars plus, you know, they probably would have charged us seventy dollars for the part and another hundred dollars for to install it. We came out of there having Lizzy empowered about fixing her own car, our own car problem, and then also only spending thirty four dollars. [00:38:20.780] - Tamara Gruber Yeah I think that's amazing. When you shared that story I even told Glenn and Hannah and we were all like, wow, we were so impressed with, with Lizzy and you guys are figuring that out. So awesome job. So Paul should be very proud of you. [00:38:33.740] - Kim Tate He was, he was so excited. He thought it was the coolest thing ever. And he was a little, you know, worried, like, did you keep the did you put it all back together? You sure? You know, like a little a little concern, but we're like, no. And so it Lizzy is very proud of herself to which I think was was a lot of fun. But just a heads up for you guys. YouTube can teach a lot. [00:38:52.910] - Kim Tate I feel bad sometimes for the parts departments, but my goodness. Or I mean not part the service departments of car places. [00:38:59.360] - Tamara Gruber But it's helped me with my washing machine when I've had. [00:39:02.010] - Kim Tate Yes, yeah. We fix so many things on YouTube. And I was so happy that Lizzy, you know, learn from her dad to look it up. And yeah, that was her thinking. [00:39:09.230] - Tamara Gruber So empowering. [00:39:10.340] - Kim Tate Yeah. So sorry guys. That was a little side note, but we did make it to Santa Rosa finally. And then, you know, we had air conditioning and we headed over to Safari West, which you and I have been to. And I think we talked about it on the podcast whenever we talked about our little getaway to Santa Rosa. But Safari West is a it's an accredited zoo association. It's part of the ACA and it's a wildlife park that, you know, is works towards conservation and education about primarily African animals. [00:39:41.360] - Kim Tate And it's pretty cool because you can camp there overnight and they have these amazing, you know, like really luxury Botswana camping tents. And Tamara, you and I have stayed in one and we got to stay with the girls and had a great time. [00:39:56.270] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, they're really nice tents, too. It's gorgeous. Yeah. I was always I was very impressed. I mean, I've now done a few different glamping tents and I would say that they were the best. I was. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Better than under canvas even which I would put maybe second. Yeah. Yeah. Really. Like although I did do a really nice one at KOA that had electricity and he and a bathroom with like a rain shower kind of thing, but not a super, super nice because where else in the U.S. can you stay in that tent and then step out onto your porch and look at giraffes. [00:40:29.600] - Kim Tate Yeah. And that's where, you know, you you and I, we had a different they were like fully booked when they hooked us up for our stay. And so we were in a different location. We were up on a hillside. And I definitely like you and I had the better cabin and it's worth it. I think they cost probably about fifty more dollars to stay at that lower location. But for reasons of sound and just accessibility to the main lobby areas and then the view of the giraffes, I think the Antelope Valley is what those ones were called and it was well worth a little bit of extra, but they're definitely the premium. [00:41:00.380] - Kim Tate I love all the linens they have, like you said, like the heating blankets. And it's you don't and they've got the space heater, whereas, you know, under canvas you're kind of dumping you have to manage your own fire to make heat. And then I also like that it's got two plugs in the bathroom. So you do have some electricity and then you can also turn on the shower like a normal shower with under canvas. It's a pull chain shower. [00:41:22.160] - Kim Tate So. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was it was so nice. And I love it there because you can truly do, you know, like a getaway where they've got the restaurant, they serve you breakfast and then you can have dinner there as well. You can even arrange lunch if you want it. And then you get to do this, you can do this wildlife tour, which is about two and a half to three hours, and they drive you around and you get to see see all the different animals. [00:41:44.540] - Kim Tate So it's really fun. [00:41:46.460] - Tamara Gruber Do the girls really love it? I mean, they haven't been before, so now they haven't. [00:41:50.630] - Kim Tate They loved it. Yeah, they thought it was cool. And they're excited about the they of course, really loved the giraffes and then they just had fun. Once we moved to the top, we weren't on the top in the giraffe section, but once we moved up to the top later on, they had a lot of fun. And when we were lower on, the ostriches came over in like we're really close to me. [00:42:06.860] - Kim Tate And she thought it was so fun. And we just sat there and kind of looked at them up close and personal and it was pretty cool. So I think it's great and the food there is really good I mean, we had a great time and with it being covered right now, they've got it where you get to order your breakfast in advance and they have, like kind of your tent. You have a section you can set out for dinner and everything is just spaced well and you're eating outdoors. [00:42:28.380] - Kim Tate And it just felt really nice. And relaxing, I think is the big thing is it's just a really relaxing type of trip, I will say, which you and I experienced. Mara, you do have to look at the temperature, especially the overnight temps, because when you go to bed at night, it can get cold fast. And then when you wake up in the morning to go into that bathroom, you keep the door to the bathroom close because they keep it kind of airflow for smells, I think, or something. [00:42:51.540] - Kim Tate But it's really cold. So when you if you choose to take a shower in the morning, it's icy, the water's warm, but the room is just really cold. [00:43:00.600] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I had that when I did my glamping stay in New Hampshire and I think it was early October, but I was freezing, absolutely freezing. And I had like a little space heater in the bathroom and the warm shower. But it's still like it was harsh stepping out of it. Yeah, well, it sounds like a neat and fun, very different thing for California. So, yeah. So now you're like, you know, heading like out of Northern California to central California. [00:43:27.810] - Tamara Gruber What was your next, you know, day? [00:43:29.340] - Kim Tate So the next stop after Santa Rosa is passing through San Francisco and we almost always have driven across the Golden Gate Bridge. But on this trip, this was where we wanted to go swing by and just see the UC Berkeley campus. And so we actually went across the other bridge, which I don't know if it's the Oakland Bridge or if it's just some other bridge. I'm not sure which bridge it's called, but it was a pretty nice bridge as well. [00:43:50.490] - Kim Tate And it just passed is kind of a little more east than the Golden Gate Bridge. And we drove through the Berkeley campus and then got back on the road and we were going to go to Santa Cruz near Santa Cruz place called Watsonville. There's the Martinelli's cider. And we've done that cider tasting there and we were so excited to do it again. But before we left, I made sure to check and I realized they're not even doing the tastings because of covid. [00:44:16.620] - Kim Tate And so we didn't stop, you know, because it's all closed down. So thankfully, we figured that out before. We actually because it was a little out of the way, but not too bad. But we determined that. And we just made our way to Monterey, where we spent two nights in Monterey, and that was kind of the last part of our trip. So I think you've done more of the central coast, like from Monterey down you go through Big Sur and all of that. [00:44:39.690] - Kim Tate Cambria, there's a lot of beautiful stuff that as you get ready to come in, like Ventura and Santa Barbara and stay along the coast there, the highway one was closed at Big Sur. So Monterey was kind of sort of the most the main the southernmost, most section that was still open. And so we headed over after Monterey, back over to the 101 and then headed down to stay with our friends. [00:45:05.700] - Tamara Gruber So what do you do in Monterey? Did you go to the aquarium? [00:45:08.160] - Kim Tate We did not. The aquarium was still closed, so they had not opened yet. But we actually did a couple of things. So we did a bike tour. So we kind of did an E bike tour, which was fun with a company called Mad Dogs and Englishmen. And so we headed out in the morning, met them, and they actually have a new little spot right there in Monterey on Cannery Row. And so you can park at the hotel. [00:45:32.910] - Kim Tate They do free valet parking for the tour guests, which was a huge perk. And you can then get on your little E bikes. And they took us around like part of seventeen mile, seventeen mile, you know, Pebble Beach. Yeah. And only part of it though. And then we headed back around and came through some of the town and they just would stop occasionally. And of course Pacific Grove where they had the beautiful purple flowers just along the coast and just gave us some little tips and had some pretty stops along the way. [00:46:00.930] - Kim Tate And it was E bikes, which is yeah, it's gorgeous. And it was kind of a cold morning. So I actually ended up buying like seventy dollar hoodies for the girls because both of them somehow managed to not get the message to wear coat because I guess it had been so hot, you know, at their other things. So we stayed at the Hyatt Regency Monterey Hotel and Spa, which is just kind of remodeled, I think, not remodeled. [00:46:24.240] - Kim Tate The the rooms have been upgraded. So more of a soft linens upgrade and kind of refashion. And it looked really nice. And so we we stayed there. They are like fully open and have a couple pools open and then they also have a golf course there. So they at night they do these fire pits, kind of communal fire pits. But if one group's already there, you're not you're not supposed to go into it, if that makes sense. [00:46:46.660] - Kim Tate So it was kind of a central it was a good jumping off point because we stayed there and then went around and did a few things. So that was good. We did drive down to the famous Bixby Bridge, which we just wanted to take a look at that. [00:46:59.550] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, but I saw you guys there. [00:47:01.920] - Kim Tate Yeah. And they're really they're trying to, like, not encourage travel there. People are just insane. So it's really limited parking, of course, but then they have these big, big rocks to try and. Encourage people to stay in, like right along the parking area and just look at the bridge and the coast, but I mean, these people are insane. They're like climbing over the rocks and climbing, like off the ledge, a little bit of the you know, because it's a it goes to the ocean and people have gotten hurt there and people are not caring. [00:47:32.630] - Kim Tate So they're not necessarily encouraging that. But I just encourage you, if you're going to go to Bixby Bridge, make sure you stay safe on the ground. That's next. The parking area. And don't try and go get that perfect Instagram shot, which is what I saw. All the crazy people that were doing it were kind of going past that section. But sorry, I'm doing a so it's really a shame. Like how many things have turned into that? [00:47:54.980] - Kim Tate Like, because of Instagram, I was going to get like this shot and it's it's definitely not worth taking your life in your hands. [00:48:04.280] - Kim Tate So right near that is a place called Garrapata State Park. [00:48:09.920] - Tamara Gruber I stopped there. That's beautiful. [00:48:13.310] - Kim Tate It's beautiful. Beautiful. And they actually have a beautiful you can go, they have a white sandy beach area that you can hike down to and they also have not too far from there are really famous spot called Lily Valley which is where all these wild calla lilies grow. Wow. And it's kind of along a stream that empties over into the ocean and along this little streamy valley is this calla lilly Valley. It's just insane of all these wild calla lilies. So it's kind of a popular little tourist spot. [00:48:41.030] - Kim Tate And we hiked around there and all the wildflowers and just kind of the it's like a cliff beach of a sort. So you're you're up a little higher and then you kind of look down on the white sand beach and the waves, it just seemed like a really nice place to hang out. And I think the parking lot is very the parking is limited. And you could see that it's probably really popular and can get busy. [00:49:03.440] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, when we stayed in Carmel, we we stopped there like on our way down towards Big Sur. But then we had also done like a day hike or, you know, like a spent part of a day at Point Lobos State Park, which is another gorgeous spot right now. [00:49:19.130] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's that's a really popular spot. We didn't go there, but yeah, I could tell that was popular. There was people like hiking out to the highway from the from the park entrance. They marked it closed because there was no parking. I mean the park was open but you couldn't drive in there. [00:49:32.460] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I was full. I love that part of the coast. It's really beautiful. And it's so especially if you can if you can. I know some other people do like kayaking tours are where you can see otters and things like that. So there is definitely a lot to do if you, you know, for people that want to spend. Yeah. A couple or a few days in that area. [00:49:49.040] - Kim Tate Well, in the Monterey Bay Aquarium is amazing and really cool. But like I said, that was it was closed, but it was opening. It was opening in May. So it will be reopen soon. And I have to say, I'll give a couple shout outs to food places in Monterey just because this is one place I know we're getting a little long, but one place that I really had some good experiences, one place we ate at was called Rio Grill, which it's kind of cool. [00:50:09.530] - Kim Tate You can tell that they have kind of made their sidewalk and outdoor seating area and it was quaint. They had, you know, heating the heaters going and they had created kind of a wall of sorts from the parking lot with plants and. Yeah, fence. And it just looked great. So they did a good job at that. And the food was delicious and they were so helpful. Mia had ordered something and felt like she was like she started eating it. [00:50:34.490] - Kim Tate They thought it was safe. But she's like, no, and it's normally eggs will do this. It wasn't nothing. But she's like, no, it doesn't seem right. And so they were like, oh, no problem, let's get you something. And so she took a Benadryl and then they got her something different. And it was so awesome. And the food was delicious and they were so friendly and so helpful. And then there's also a really famous bakery in Monterey called Alta Bakery. [00:50:58.280] - Kim Tate And we stop there for breakfast the next morning before our bike ride. And I have to say they had some amazing things. There's a huge line normally waiting outside to place your order and stuff. So you do have to allow a little bit of time. And finding parking can be a little tricky, but it was an awesome little spot. And then lastly, I want to give a shout out to a place called Lucie's on Lighthouse, which was a hot dog joint that's got like kind of a skateboard theme. [00:51:22.460] - Kim Tate And basically they have all these crazy hot dogs that you can get all these different, whatever it's called, you know, like toppings and stuff. So a little bit about that. It was really awesome. Sound fun. Yeah. And so for Monterey, we went, like I said, to our friend's house and that was kind of it, and that was in Ojai. And so we didn't really do much else. We did some day trips. [00:51:45.950] - Kim Tate We hiked the Hollywood sign, which was a pretty epic fun thing to do. And that was about a I think it was just over four mile hike, round trip and, you know, some great views of L.A. It was not t

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189 Southwest Grand Circle Road Trip

Play Episode Listen Later May 18, 2021 41:41

This week we tackle on of this year's most popular road trips -- the Grand Circle road trip in the Southwest USA. And we have the perfect guest! Anne Howard from Honeytrek shares her insights and tips after having spent weeks in this region over multiple trips. About Anne Howard Anne is the co-founder of the couples adventure travel blog HoneyTrek and co-author of the books Comfortably Wild: The Best Glamping Destinations in North America and National Geographic's Ultimate Journeys for Two. Since 2012, Anne and her husband Mike have been traveling full-time across the seven continents and have road tripped from Baja to The Arctic Circle and 50 US States in between. Mike & Anne Howard left on their honeymoon in January 2012...and never came home. They created HoneyTrek.com to chronicle their journey across all seven continents and help people mobilize their travel dreams. Their story of the World's Longest Honeymoon, savvy tips, and blog have been featured in hundreds of international media outlets—from USA Today to Lonely Planet. Firm believers that love and travel make the world a better place, they authored Ultimate Journeys for Two—National Geographic's bestselling couples travel guide. To write their newest book, Comfortably Wild, they bought a vintage RV (aka Buddy the Camper) and traveled 73,000 miles across 9 countries to find the best glamping experiences in North America. Along the way, they fell in love with RVing and have made Buddy their full-time adventure mobile. They've taken their 1985 Toyota Sunrader from the tip of Baja Mexico to the Arctic Circle of Canada and 50 US states in between. As full-time nomads and travel journalists, the Howards are always on the hunt for off-the-track destinations, uncommon adventures, and the human stories that make each place so special. Follow their adventures at www.HoneyTrek.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. You can also see a gallery of photos from their Grand Circle Road Trip on Facebook. Tips for Planning a Grand Circle Road Trip The Grand Circle road trip is the loop of national parks and monuments in the Southwest including the Zion, Bryce, Capitol Reef, Canyonlands, Arches, the Grand Canyon and many other national monuments, tribal lands, and state parks along the way. Trying to hit the six big National Parks, you need at least two weeks to adequately cover the Grand Circle road trip. You want to leave time to stop at roadside shops, restaurants, photo opportunities, etc along the way. Utah has such amazing landscapes but also has many dinosaur fossils. To start the road trip, fly into Las Vegas. Sometimes camping or RVing in the parks sounds ideal, but it can get hard to find campsites in the national parks so sometimes staying in hotels or other lodging can actually be better. Keep in mind that big RVs aren't able to go in some areas of the national parks and driving a large RV on the small roads or fitting into parking lots can be a big challenge. If you are renting an RV to do the Grand Circle road trip, stick to an RV that is 27' or smaller. The ideal size is probably 22 feet. From Las Vegas, it is only a three hour drive to Zion National Park (versus four hours from Phoenix to the Grand Canyon.) From Zion you will go to Bryce along Highway 12, which is a gorgeous scenic drive. You will also pass by Escalante National Monument, which is massive and you want to leave some time to explore. You will then go to Capitol Reef, then Arches National Park, before heading down to the Grand Canyon. Don't just follow Google Maps, which will just route you the fastest way. After Canyonlands, leave time to go to Bears Ears National Monument, which is underrated but is a sacred destination for various Native American nations and you will have an opportunity to see cliff dwellings and petroglyphs and it is not crowded at all. You will also want to leave time on your trip down to the Grand Canyon to swing through Monument Valley and the Navajo nation's lands and tribal parks. Just 15 minutes or so away from Monument Valley is Goosenecks State Park. It has a double loop in the river, which is a much better photo opportunity than the popular Horseshoe Bend and it is inexpensive and not crowded. It is a true hidden gem! Beyond the national parks, look for other types of public lands -- national forests, Bureau of Land Management land, etc. To find public lands and campsites, you can use iOverlander and UCPublic CG Ultimate Campgrounds app. But please leave reviews and share useful information to grow these communities. Don't miss hiking the slot canyons of Spooky and Peekaboo Canyons in Escalante National Monument. It is a tough road to get there and one is a more technical hike, but doable for kids and well worth the effort. They can get very narrow at points, sometimes no wider than a foot. A more family friendly hike between Bryce and Escalante is Willis Creek Slot canyon. Keep in mind that this could be icy in the winter. This is also much easier to get to. Escalante Yurts is a great spot to glamp when you are in this area. Make sure you hike a slot canyon while in Utah. You can also plan other adventures, like canyoneering in Orderville Slot Canyon near Zion or off-roading in Moab, where there is some of the best off-roading in the world, or do a scenic flight over Canyonland and Arches. Bryce also has astronomy rangers and you can do full moon hikes twice a month. Some big adventures need permits, such as hiking the Narrows. Try to do the national parks midweek and state parks on the weekend to try to avoid some crowds. This can also be a good winter road trip when it isn't as crowded and it can be beautiful in the snow, but not everything may be available. Spring is another great time because there is more water running, more flowers, and it isn't as hot as summer. These areas are warmer during the day and can get colder at night, so be prepared. In Arches, if you can't do the whole park because you are pressed for time, make sure you hike Devil's Garden with the largest concentration of arches. Zion isn't that large and doesn't take too long to do. Canyonlands is huge, and there are also two separate entrances, which makes it almost like two separate parks. The Island in the Sky in the north end near Moab is actually hours aways from the Needle section. The Needle section is actually less traveled and very lovely. Make sure you spend time understanding the Native American history for all of these places. When you are traveling in the Needles section of Canyonlands, Newspaper Rock is a quick stop but it has two thousand years of history in petroglyphs. (Note: this was recently horribly and thoughtlessly defaced.) The Butler Wash Ruins in Bears Ears is another great place to see amazing cliff dwellings from the 1200s (similar to Mesa Verde in Colorado.) Glamping is a great way to experience the outdoors and this area including Under Canvas, which is usually just outside of the national parks, and Wunder Camp, which has a series of camps near national parks but at a lower price point. Be sure to buy Anne's book, Comfortably Wild: The Best Glamping Destinations in North America , for more glamping suggestions. If you need to skip something, you can miss the full 18-mile scenic drive in Bryce as the best parts are at the beginning and it is an out and back drive and not a loop. Be careful about hiking down the Grand Canyon as you have to hike back up and it is a tough hike and plan accordingly with time, water, and energy. This is a good trip to buy a National Parks Pass. It would also be useful to buy the Secrets to the National Parks and Scenic Highways and Byways books for the trip. Anne also covers a lot of the southwest, including Moab and a southwest road trip section, in her book Ultimate Journeys for Two. When visiting this area, make sure you pack a good wide brim sunhat to block the strong sun and layers to deal with the changing temperatures. Anne recommends Asolo hiking boots for women and men, as well as Kyodan leggings with pockets. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.060] - Kim Tate Stay tuned, because today we're circling around the southwest. [00:00:16.090] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.000] - Tamara Gruber Hey, Kim, I've missed talking to you. [00:00:33.580] - Kim Tate I know it's crazy. I feel like we just got done saying, like, we're back and now we are. We had another break. [00:00:39.430] - Tamara Gruber So it's you know, we've gone to these every other week episodes for a while because we weren't traveling. And now I think we're going to start traveling, which makes it hard find time to record. But in the meantime, we've gotten some feedback from our listeners. And I thought we should maybe take a little bit of time before our interview today just to share a little bit of the feedback, because I always love it when our listeners come back with some advice and some recommendations of their own. [00:01:08.060] - Tamara Gruber So I thought it would be great to share. [00:01:09.700] - Kim Tate Yeah, definitely. I love knowing that people are actually listening to us because I really like you and I just love talking to each other and it's kind of fun. But to actually know that people actually care and like us, it's awesome. [00:01:21.400] - Tamara Gruber I know we say it all the time, but we really, really do get a big smile on our face every time we get, you know, one of these kind of comments or emails or messages. And it just, you know, definitely makes us happy to know we aren't just talking into the void. But I wanted to share about our episode, probably a month or two now ago, we talked about some of our favorite hotels in Florida with Joella. [00:01:43.330] - Tamara Gruber And I got a message from David and Karen from family boarding pass, and they had some to recommend also. So I thought I would share those because I feel like it is prime vacation planning time right now. And I know that hotels, especially in Florida, getting really booked up. So they had recommended the Pink Shell Hotel, which is in Fort Myers Beach and also the Hilton in Clearwater. And there's lots to do around there. You can walk to beach locations and they also have additional activities like kayaks and bike rentals. [00:02:12.610] - Tamara Gruber And I know that they gave one other recommendation for old Key West, but unfortunately, that part of the message got cut off. And so, you know, thanks, guys, for sending that in. I always love finding new hotels that people that are like me have tried and liked. So check those out if you're looking for a stay on the west coast of Florida, the summer. [00:02:32.860] - Kim Tate Yeah, I definitely feel like hotels are kind of people seem to be really into resort vacations right now, and I think it's just they're starting to get ready to branch out a little more. But organizing tours and with some things being closed down, hotels are definitely getting some good travel. I am going to share something because speaking of hotels, we recently had Episode one eight five and we talked to Nate from Room Steals and we actually had a listener, pint sized mommy who left us a message on our Instagram post about it, saying that she used her Room Steals to book a hotel and she saved four hundred and forty five dollars. [00:03:08.980] - Kim Tate And so she thanked us for that episode. And I think that's cool like we were talking about. It's fun to know that we're actually helping our listeners, too. [00:03:16.360] - Tamara Gruber So it's a reminder to go back and use that too because, you know, I, of course, like added the extension and then said, I'm not always using chrome. A lot of times I do my searches either on my phone or in Safari. And so I need to go back and try to use that because I am trying to book some things, you know, in the next couple of weeks. So maybe I can get a deal, too, because. [00:03:36.850] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, Elisa, that's amazing. I mean, 440 dollars. That's that's substantial. [00:03:42.400] - Kim Tate Yeah, it is. And you know, one of the cool things, you know, we had originally when we were talking to Nate, I wondered about if it defaults to a specific room taken, families might be stuck. But I actually tried it out myself when I was looking at some hotels for a trip that we're planning coming up. And you can actually click through and then you can see different room types and the pricing that they found for those different room types. [00:04:03.220] - Kim Tate Even so, it's not like you're just buying one room or one price and you just get stuck with whatever room. So they still have the ability to choose a specific room, which was cool. But just so everyone knows, it only works on like aggregator sites like Expedia and stuff like that. It doesn't work if you just go to like Marriott Dotcom. So the idea is that it's it uses those aggregate bulk pricing sites. [00:04:27.730] - Tamara Gruber Interesting. Yeah, it's good to know. Yeah. And I also wanted to give a shout out to Patty from following the magic on Instagram. She has been a follower for a bit and she gave us some feedback that she really loved the episode that we were talking about my road trip because remember how I went on and on and I felt like it was so long. And so she was like, no, no, I love listening to you guys, you know, share about your travels. [00:04:48.310] - Tamara Gruber And so I just want to say thank you. I definitely appreciate that. And I know that those always tend to get a little bit even higher downloads than some of the other episodes. And so we are traveling again. And so you'll hear more of those coming up. But that Patti, thanks for that feedback. [00:05:04.420] - Kim Tate Yeah, we loved hearing that. And it's so funny to actually have her message that because it made Tamara and I both look and we're like, yeah, when you look at download numbers, which with podcasting, you don't get a lot of statistics, but you can definitely see download numbers and then listening time and Tamara and I have both have noticed that you guys seem to like when it's just us rambling on like nonsense. So that's good to know. But we also wanted to take a moment to reach out to you guys and tell you that we're thinking about doing a mailbag episode. [00:05:33.520] - Kim Tate And if you're a podcast, avid podcast listener, you probably have heard of this where the episode will just be filled with questions from our, you know, listeners. If you guys have a question about maybe you're planning a trip, you need advice, maybe you want Tamara and I to look at a specific destination and help you pick a hotel, maybe you need help with an itinerary or destination ideas, any of that. We would love to hear from you and help you do some travel planning or give you some travel tips. [00:06:00.160] - Kim Tate So if you have any thoughts or questions for us, send us an email at podcast@VacationMavens.com, or you can always reach out to us on social media @stuffedsuitcase or @we3travel or even @vacationmavens and send us a message. So just let us know and we would love to hear from you and be able to do an episode all about our, you know, our listeners questions. [00:06:23.860] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And if we don't have the answer, we may know someone that does or will read it in. One of our listeners may tune in for the next episode to try to give us some answers. So it's the great thing about the community. But in the meantime, we're going to be talking about a really popular road trip. I feel like especially this year, I feel like everyone that I know seems to be planning a trip out here. But a lot of our listeners have also asked for an episode for us to talk about the grand circle through a lot of the Southwest, the Utah parks and some of Arizona. [00:06:54.190] - Tamara Gruber So we're going to be chatting with Anne Howard, who has spent so much time in this area. And this was an interview that I absolutely loved because she just had so many great tips to share. So definitely stay tuned. [00:07:05.770] - Kim Tate Yeah, we already love Anne and her enthusiasm about this subject will come through in this episode. So I hope you guys enjoy. [00:07:21.840] - Tamara Gruber So this week, we're here with Anne Howard and is the co-founder of the couples adventure travel blog, Honey Trek, and also the coauthor of books Comfortably Wild The Best Glamping Destinations in North America and National Geographic's Ultimate Journeys for Two. Since 2012, Anne her husband, Mike, has been traveling full time across the seven continents and have a road trip from Baja to the Arctic Circle and 50 United States in between. So Anne, you've been everywhere. Where are you right now? [00:07:48.870] - Anne Howard We are in San Miguel de Allende Mexico. [00:07:51.660] - Tamara Gruber Oh, I've heard such good things about that area. [00:07:54.170] - Anne Howard Yeah, it's always hard to leave. The camper waits and long term storage somewhere randomly outside of Sacramento, but I'm sure it'll be fine because you got to mix up your adventures domestically, internationally. So we'll be back to the camper in about two months. [00:08:07.500] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. What is the campers name, Buddy? [00:08:09.450] - Anne Howard His name is Buddy. Yeah, buddy. The camper. Good old buddy. [00:08:13.980] - Tamara Gruber Well, you took our you took Buddy on a big road trip. I mean, you've taken Buddy on many, many road trips. But one that I know a lot of our listeners have been asking about is the grand circle road trip is kind of a I'm not exactly sure where and when it got that name, but I've been hearing it kind of pop up in all kinds of chat groups and Facebook groups and things. It seems to be on everybody's radar this year. [00:08:36.690] - Tamara Gruber So I was hoping maybe you could tell us a little bit about what exactly is a grand circle type of Southwest road trip? What does it include? [00:08:45.570] - Anne Howard Yeah, the grand circle. I mean, conveniently, many of the most amazing national parks of the Southwest are in a sort of natural loop. Zion, Bryce Canyon lands arches and the Grand Canyon all connect. But what makes it even grander is that there are many national monuments, state parks, Navajo tribal parks that that actually follow this route as well. So it's as grand as you want it to be. And in reality, we've actually done it over the course of two years, really many years. [00:09:20.340] - Anne Howard We've done many of these parks many times. And then a certain point we're like, wait a second, we just did the Grand Circle Road trip. And because it doesn't need to follow such a linear path, but in its classic sense, it's hitting those big five national parks. But we really encourage people to take as long as they can. And rather than really rush and think about it is like a bucket list thing, like I must do it all in one loop. [00:09:43.500] - Anne Howard It might be two different trips for you. And that's OK. I'd actually prefer people break it up into two trips because I'd hate to see race by all these other fabulous things just to have it be a check on your bucket list. [00:09:57.110] - Kim Tate Yeah, totally, I know we talked to I can't remember who our guest was, I want to say, Alison, it was perhaps a while back like it was one of our first episodes. So we'll have to link in the show notes to that episode. But she had mentioned, like, how amazing many of the Utah state parks are and that they can have a lot less of the crowds and offer some of the same amazing scenery. So I agree with what you're saying. [00:10:19.920] - Kim Tate Like this type of thing isn't maybe to be rushed through and split it up a little and decide, you know, take it in parts maybe. But it is a lot of ground. Yeah, definitely. It's a lot of ground to cover. [00:10:37.550] - Anne Howard I missed one. So it's Zion, Bryce Capital, Reef, Canyonlands, Arches and Grand Canyon. So six are technically on there. But like I said, there's so many more wonderful national mountains, the state parks along the way. [00:10:48.710] - Kim Tate Yeah, of course. I think Grand Canyon throwing it in there throws off the big five. That is Utah's big thing. Yeah, it is. It really is. All you tell you. [00:10:56.150] - Kim Tate Yeah. So do you think how many days, you know, if they are going to try and do it as the grand circle, you know, how many days do you think they. I'm I'm sure you guys are going to say two months, but somebody is going to try and do it with a standard vacation allotment. How many days do you think they need to adequately make the grand circle trip? [00:11:15.110] - Anne Howard I would say really two week minimum if you could. But every anything is possible, right? You could do all the parts and just, you know, one day I think it's nicer to be at them two days each. There are some sometimes was more significant travel days. You have to realize you're not going to do all of Zion one day and then all of the other because you're going to be you need to actually get between those places, those you happen to be closer than the others, but it's hard to get from Canyonlands to Grand Canyon. [00:11:43.640] - Anne Howard So that's you have to buffer in a little bit of extra time. And you just you know, that is always the serendipity of a road trip, is you never know what you're going to find along the way so that having those those stops and when you see them incredible photo stop, a fun rock shop, a neat roadside restaurant, you don't want to squander those things. [00:12:00.590] - Kim Tate Mm hmm. Yeah. There's nothing worse than being on a road trip. And, you know, like because I've experienced this, unfortunately, where you're like, sorry, we don't have time to stop. And like, you actually start skipping like turnouts. Yeah, no, we're not going to get a snack there because we have to get to this hotel and it's almost dark. And, you know, the office closes at ten and that's just miserable. [00:12:20.090] - Kim Tate You don't you don't want that life. [00:12:21.890] - Anne Howard Yeah, totally. [00:12:23.390] - Tamara Gruber I feel like especially that part of the country, you know, for many of us, it's just such a different landscape. It's such a unique place that you do want to stop. Like, would I usually want to stop at a rock shop? No, probably not. But I don't know if I've really seen a rock shop, so maybe I do want to stop. [00:12:39.740] - Anne Howard You do want to stop at at rock shop. Utah particularly has incredible history and not just geologically, but also dinosaurs. I mean, you'd stop at a rock shot. You're like, I'm pretty sure that's a Tyrannosaurus Rex femur in this guy's backyard. Like, are you serious right now? Like, there's some crazy roadside things to see, especially when it comes to rocks and bones and probably a lot of crafts, too, right? [00:13:06.080] - Anne Howard For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:13:08.300] - Tamara Gruber So I guess the point is, like, where do you start? Do you typically would you fly into Phoenix, would you fly into Vegas. Like what is if you're not driving buddy, you know, where do you usually start? [00:13:20.510] - Anne Howard And even though it seems like we have an advantage because we do have a camper, we actually have have done this road trip in many ways. So while we love RV and can sing those praises, we've also done it as traditional road trips where we stayed in camping camps and some of the historic park lodges. So I think it's actually just as cool a trip either way. So don't feel bad if you don't have an RV if you wanted to try it. [00:13:43.220] - Anne Howard I think it's an awesome way to do it. But it's also really tricky to camp in national parks. They fill up fast. They're crowded, like sometimes camping in RV and national parks is not the way to go. So I think you could do it whichever way makes you happy, because there are so many charming lodging options and they're not massive distances. So you it's you're going to get to your destination before sunset and check into a into a camp or a hotel. [00:14:11.030] - Anne Howard So it doesn't have to be that way, even though I am a fan of RV. But I would say if you are going to fly in and rent a car or rent an RV, flying into Vegas just makes a lot of sense. If you from from Vegas, it's like under three hours to Zion and there's plenty of cool things. One, there's Vegas is its own phenomenon. So if you want to spend the night there just for fun, it's it's a great kid friendly place as well. [00:14:33.860] - Anne Howard But then you to get to Zion in under three hours versus if you came from Phoenix is more like four hours the Grand Canyon. And it's just kind of a slog and it's like Vegas ready for that road trip and you know, people are coming for it. So I that would be my recommendation. [00:14:49.010] - Kim Tate That's some great advice. And I think, you know, one other tidbit about that is I'll never forget being in Yellowstone and seeing the campers and even though they. Parking for RVs. You know, it seems like sometimes the stress for those guys getting in and out of some of those turnouts, especially when you're looking at the bison further, you know, in Lamar Valley, there was times where you just couldn't get in there. And that's kind of disappointing. [00:15:12.640] - Kim Tate So I see what you mean about maybe RV's aren't the best for national parks. [00:15:16.170] - Anne Howard Also that also small, big RV's are not the best for national parks. There are length restrictions on many of these like wonderful winding roads that you want to be on. So if you are going to rent an RV, like keep it under twenty seven feet, we think the smaller the better. We think the perfect size of twenty two because yeah. You'll get boxed out of certain opportunities because of your length. [00:15:36.750] - Kim Tate Well so we talked about flying into Vegas. You think that that's a good one. So does that mean then you're like there's a certain direction that you take the loop or a certain order that you hit the hit the six parks. [00:15:46.480] - Anne Howard Yeah. I mean, from there you're going to go to to Zion and then you're going to then is Bryce one of the Highway 12 is absolutely gorgeous, like going along that way. But then as you're going to also be passing through Escalante National Monument, which is massive. So you want to give that some extra time, if you can, before heading into Capitol Reef, then Canyonlands. And then I had my map up and then my computer crashed. [00:16:12.270] - Anne Howard And I don't have my map in front of me right now. [00:16:14.230] - Kim Tate And I think it's Arches. [00:16:16.020] - Anne Howard Then Arches, then Canylonlands. And then down to Grand Canyon. But then once again, you're going to pass through if you're going to go just the straight Google map, fastest way they're going to have you skip major things. You also have an opportunity from Canyonlands to go through Bears Ears National Monument, which is totally underrated. It is an incredible sacred destination for various Native American tribes. So incredible opportunities to see cliff dwellings and petroglyphs. [00:16:43.110] - Anne Howard And it's not traveled at all. So that's a gem. We actually lived in that area of Utah for two months doing a house that taking care of lots of turkeys and chickens. So and we lived we actually took care of a house for two park rangers. So they knew all the best places. And we had an incredible time. And then once again, they might want to speed you just to get to take the fastest highway. No, you should certainly take the very slight detour to go through Monument Valley, which is the Navajo Nation. [00:17:10.740] - Anne Howard So, no, that's not a national park. But the equivalent of a Navajo national park is their tribal parks for Monument Valley. The highly recommend that before just racing down the Grand Canyon. [00:17:22.140] - Tamara Gruber I once drove through Monument Valley at sunset. And it was so magical. I mean, this area is not an area that I've had a chance to explore very much. But I did once, as I've told I think on the podcast before, I had to drive from San Diego to New York City after 9/11, and we were like, it was me and my boss, because we were stranded there. [00:17:42.990] - Tamara Gruber And we were like, if we're going to drive this way, we're going to see one thing. And so we decided to stop at the Grand Canyon and we basically had lunch, took a couple of pictures and then drove through Monument Valley up to Moab that night. But it was I think it was also that time that I was there that to see nature so beautifully and then the sun, it just it was kind of like a healing type of moment. [00:18:03.690] - Tamara Gruber But that area, I think a lot of people do kind of skip over and it's yes, definitely beautiful. [00:18:09.030] - Anne Howard And then actually one of our favorite, totally underrated state parks. I swear no one goes there. It is. And it's right next to to Monument Valley with like a 15 minute detour is called Gooseneck State Park. So everybody knows what Horseshoe Bend looks like. Right. It's probably the screensaver on your Windows PC right now. It's like that look like it's an arch with a river going around this peninsula. And it's stunning. Well, gooseneck is that Horseshoe Bend Times, too. [00:18:36.990] - Anne Howard So it's a double loop around two peninsulas with this snaking river, Red Rock, turquoise water. It is absolutely stunning. And it's five bucks to go and a million dollar photo op and you can camp there and no one's there that night and they barbecue pits and the whole thing. So that's that's a fun extra that I feel like I wouldn't have known without the help of my Utah Park Ranger friends. [00:19:00.090] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And I feel like especially now, like this year, I think is going to be a little bit insane when it comes to going to a lot of these national parks. I mean, I've already seen arches tweeting almost every day that by like ten, eleven they're full. You know, it's something that people are going to get to really plan in advance and hopefully really look for those other kind of opportunities. But I feel like between the desire for everyone to be outside but still travel this year domestically and then Instagram, you know, the fact that, like now I see so many people are talking about, like, I want to go to Goblin or I want to like these different places that I had never heard of until Instagram. [00:19:37.170] - Tamara Gruber Right. So everyone's trying to get that photo op. Everyone's there at sunset or sunrise or, you know, the craziness of it. And I just, you know, I couldn't stand crowds before. So now I'm probably going to have, like, what's the phobia for crowds? I don't know. [00:19:49.110] - Anne Howard But that's why I also because that's I feel similarily about national parks and that's why we discovered public lands. For every national park, it's that's like the most protected designation of public lands, but then it it definitely eases up and opens up from there. So I highly encourage people instead of thinking I have to stay at the the National Park campground, look at the surrounding public lands. That means National Forests, Bureau of Land Management, land, and that's all wide open and it's usually free. [00:20:20.500] - Anne Howard So and there are no crowds and there are some some wonderful apps to find that kind of thing. I Overlander is a great app to find public lands, one of our favorite, which I will share, even though Mike is sort of territorial over it. But I do. I will share it if that you are one a good steward of the land and two, you leave a review because that's what this app lacks, is the community element of like people saying, hey, watch out for the pothole on the right or o sounds. [00:20:49.240] - Anne Howard That is even better over here. I Overlander has that. But the app and I'm, I tell you, UCPublic CG, which is Ultimate Campgrounds app, is an incredible, incredible resource to discover public lands and camping opportunities. It's like five dollars for the app and it's so worth that. So that is a great way to kind of get out of the fray of summer like the the national park traffic. [00:21:13.690] - Tamara Gruber So I know you don't want to give up all of your secrets, but since we're talking about these more off the beaten path parks and things that we should see, do you have a few others that you would recommend? That would be if you are looking for alternatives to some of the national parks or even if you can do a longer trip to add in there? [00:21:32.440] - Anne Howard Yeah, I mean, Escalante, national monument is massive and one of the coolest hikes ever. It's a challenging road to get out there and it's a kind of a typical hike. But I also did it with some friends and they had their little kids with them and they were having the best time ever. So I've seen, like, kids age seven do it. I've seen dogs do it. But please don't bring your dog. It's way too complicated for that. [00:21:53.290] - Anne Howard But Utah has amazing slot canyon. So no matter what, you can't leave Utah without hiking a slot canyon to the technical one I was describing. It's actually two that come together called spooky and peekaboo canyons. And it's sometimes it's only as wide as a foot. It's crazy. So a slot canyon, basically these sort of sheer walls that have been carved by a river or an erosion over time. And they kind of create this magical play of light and it's like a little bit of rock scrambling. [00:22:23.410] - Anne Howard And and it really is a full body experience. And it's totally magic for those. That's a more challenging version, another one that is super cool and very easy and family friendly. And just kind of on your way between Bryce and Escalante is called Willis Creek Canyon. Funny enough, we did it with my mom and we were staying at Escalante. It's a great camping camp. That's a really wonderful base for your trip. She's like, oh, do definitely do Willis Creek. [00:22:54.070] - Anne Howard And she didn't she didn't really mention that it might be frozen. So we were like ice skating there and well, still kind of through the river at one point. But it's only no matter what, it's only like four inches deep. So in the summer, that's going to feel really good. It's a waiting. You're wading through the water at very, very shallow levels. You're not going to worry. That swept away. And then it's maybe like a mile and a half and then, oh, it's like amazing. [00:23:19.180] - Anne Howard Slot Canyon appears at the end and it's not very crowded and it's it's really special. And that's like an easy detour, peekaboo and spooky or like a life experience and a drive and of itself, but very cool. So do slot canyon no matter what in Utah. Also like this is the land of true adventure. Do a do something big. Don't you see, I love hiking, but you have opportunities to try new things. So maybe it's doing canyoneering in Orderville slot Canyon near Zion or maybe it's doing a four by four trip in Moab because they have some of the best rock off roading in the world. [00:23:57.700] - Anne Howard Maybe it's doing the scenic flight to kind of get a sense of the geology from above what you can do for many places. But there's a great one that kind of loops over both canyons and arches that you could do another fun things if you can time your trip or with the full moon. Bryce does they have their astronomy rangers and you can do full moon hikes two nights of the month. So and that's a totally unique way to see the park. [00:24:25.420] - Anne Howard So, yeah, mix it up, try new adventures, be it hiking, getting a boat at some point, strapping yourself in for some canyoneering or hopping in four by four and challenge yourself to do something new. [00:24:38.400] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's great tips and kind of fun to think beyond, just, you know, like let's look for some fun hikes. You know, it is the adventure and there are soft adventures, you know. You know that you don't have to be, you know, jumping out of an airplane to have some adventures. Yeah. [00:24:53.880] - Tamara Gruber It's perfect for our teens too right Kim? [00:24:56.190] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I could see it being much better to kind of having teenagers if you have. They always like to have something unique that's cool and that they can brag about with friends. It's not just we went on a hike so. Yeah. Any other, you know, a must see attractions or experiences you think. I mean we've talked a lot in the past about, you know, we've talked about the Grand Canyon, the big five, house boating even on Lake Powell. [00:25:20.610] - Kim Tate But do you think there's any highlights that are certainly not to be missed? You've talked, of course, about, you know, getting beyond the beyond the standard, but what do you think are some of the must dos for that area? [00:25:31.600] - Anne Howard It was good to know that some of these truly iconic things like, say, for example, hiking the narrows, which is up around the Virgin River, is an amazing experience. But it needs a permit. So it's not a big deal is you need to know that certain big adventures need permits, not too many. But like, that's one of the most Instagramable things ever. Why? Because it's that popular. And as a result, you now need a permit. [00:25:54.450] - Anne Howard So don't let that deter you. But at the same time, like not, everything's always going to be available to you. I think to avoid some of this rush in general, though, is to know what days of the week you're going to like, maybe get your your national parks midweek and your state parks on the weekend and also your time of year. I think we chat about season later, but time of year is going to make a big difference about what things are available to you. [00:26:19.650] - Anne Howard We actually loved doing these this road trip in the winter when, like, no one's around and you know it like seeing like the red hoodies embrace of the blanket of snow or the layers of the Grand Canyon like feathered with white. It's an unbelievable. So I wouldn't rule out I don't want my neck to rush to do it this summer when it's the hottest. Like you can hurry up. Actually, spring is a great time to do it. And spring and winter, our favorite times to go to beat some of the crowds and actually see some more unique things. [00:26:47.880] - Anne Howard More water runs in the spring. More flowers come out in spring. [00:26:51.780] - Tamara Gruber I'm really glad to hear you say that about winter because there's been so many times where we've talked about doing it as like our we have a spring break in March. That's two weeks. And we're always like, is it going to be too cold or not? And dances are usually we'll head off somewhere internationally, but obviously not now. But is that what we were actually thinking, like, well, hey, maybe next year we can try to do it for March break. [00:27:15.660] - Tamara Gruber So if it if it's going to be nice in mid-March, it's still pleasant, you know, where you can still access everything. That sounds ideal to me. [00:27:24.360] - Anne Howard Yeah. And most of these areas like heat up during the day, they might drop in the morning at night, but it's usually pretty much always hiking weather. You disappear, maybe dress a little. And we actually saw the Grand Canyon in a blizzard, a straight blizzard. And but we had we actually had booked a room at the Bright Angel Lodge on the rim. Actually, that not that was luck. That happened to be one room left. And we took it and we woke up to just the sunniest Grand Canyon, all fluffy white. [00:27:49.980] - Anne Howard It was absolutely unreal. So I was like, what a benefit. We had seen the Grand Canyon the summer. I was like, wow, you can't beat winter. This is unreal. So, yeah, don't let nature deter you all year round is actually quite good. I'd say summer is probably the least desirable time to go. But hey, if that's what your schedule allows for kids, vacations, whatever, if you can make it work. [00:28:09.400] - Kim Tate Are there any do you think there's any, you know of the hikes of I mean I'm thinking about of course, Big five a little bit, but were there any hikes that you feel like you have to get there early or do you have to make time for this one? Because the the views are just epic? Or do you or do you feel like maybe there's a hike in, say, because I've seen like Bryce, it looks very different than arches, you know? [00:28:32.610] - Kim Tate So do you are there any that you're like, yeah, take your time, make sure you do get out and see this or anything like that. [00:28:39.960] - Anne Howard I see. Well, I mean, say in arches like hiking the devil's garden, if you can't do the whole park, what you know, if you're really crunched for time. Well, Devil's Garden has the largest concentration of natural arches in the world. So, like, that's some place to prioritize. But, you know, all of these parks, like our like Zion isn't that big a place. Arches isn't that big a place. Canyonlands is a massive place. [00:29:04.200] - Anne Howard And actually, Canyonlands is good to know that it's not one entrance. You actually it's almost two totally separate parks. So know that in your planning that the island in the sky in the north end near Moab is like hours away actually from the other end. The needle section, the needle section is actually less traveled and a really lovely and actually I'd say in general and needles is a good place to do this, but throughout is make sure you spend some time understanding, like the Native American history that goes with all of these places, because, of course, the geology says. [00:29:38.220] - Anne Howard Eye popping, but really there's there's incredible narratives from various, you know, from ancestral Pueblo ones to the more contemporary Navajo who are who hold these places as sacred and who left their mark in their own way. So like, say, for example, when you're driving the the long road needles to get to the section of Canyonlands newspaper Rock is a quick little stop. But you could certainly miss it if you're not paying attention. And it shows petroglyphs dating back two thousand years and starting with ancestral lines. [00:30:11.910] - Anne Howard But then, like other groups have layered on and layered on so called newspaper because like literally like kind of putting the news as time goes on on this rock. So it was incredible concentration of petroglyphs that actually are go pretty close to print. So it's very interesting the how different groups, you know, what they're what their symbols were and and spending some time learning about that also on the ancestral puebloan and sort of Native American history of the area. [00:30:42.180] - Anne Howard Bear Ears there's one place called there's many places, but the Butler Wash ruins is very easily accessible just off the road. And that's where you get to see amazing cliff dwellings from like the twelve hundreds. So it's so cool to see almost like a city in the rocks and in Mesa Verde National Park is an example of that in Colorado, the canyon all the way to Colorado on this trip. We'll know that you can also do it in Utah. [00:31:05.730] - Kim Tate That's fabulous tips. I think that's good. And I think that's what more people need to be willing to do to help with the overcrowding that we're experiencing in our national parks is you know, I appreciate you guys being such a great voice for that of recognizing, like you said, the heritage of these lands and then also, you know, getting beyond just the borders and the national park entrance and looking for the stories that are around those areas, too. [00:31:28.110] - Anne Howard Yeah, absolutely. And one thing another way to kind of beat the crowds. And I will shamelessly plug that. We we wrote a book about camping and but it's because we're really passionate about this way to experience the outdoors. And I think particularly when it comes to this sort of everyone checking the same camp or the national parks or trying to be at the historic lodge, they offer great opportunities to places to look into. Under canvas is the most known, but they've kind of built their model about finding the public lands and building their beautiful safari tents just outside the national park. [00:32:05.050] - Anne Howard So you can get that serenity again. They are more they are higher end or I'd say a higher price point, rather. But another really amazing company who's doing something similar at a more at a lower price point. Equally awesome is called Wunder Camp. And they have a series of camps that are around some of these national parks to where they're setting up tents and helping you kind of set up so that you could be they had various programing. So it could be you're doing the cooking or they're doing the cooking. [00:32:35.460] - Anne Howard But that's that's a great way to be outdoors. And, yeah, I think I just think life is such a cool way to get in touch with nature and have that serenity and meet the crowds and try something different. [00:32:46.650] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I agree. Kim and I have both stated under canvas what can you've been outside a glacier and Yellowstone and I was outside of Mt. Rushmore. And I love that experience. I mean, I've never been drawn to camping as much because I love my bathrooms and things like that. So I really like this kind of in-between world of camping. And it it's just such a unique experience that even if you don't do it for the your entire trip, just to do it for a few nights and have that experience, it really it makes things stand out. [00:33:14.850] - Tamara Gruber It's very memorable, certainly much more memorable than, you know, staying at the Holiday Inn or whatever. So. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we've talked a lot about some of the off the beaten path things. And I feel like one of the things that I know I struggle with and I think a lot of people do is letting go of something like, you know, everyone does this and you feel like this pressure like this. [00:33:38.580] - Tamara Gruber Well, I have to get that picture, too. How can I come back from this trip and not have a picture of Horseshoe Bend or, you know, like some of these things, like you feel this pressure of like, I must do all the things and I'm just wondering, like, what are some of the ones that people feel are so like, you have to do this. You have to do the narrows or, you know, something else that you would say, you know what? [00:33:58.950] - Tamara Gruber You really don't have to like you're not going to be missing anything. It's OK if you let that one go. Are there any that you think maybe are worth leaving off the list and to be able to fit in some of these other great experiences that you've talked about? [00:34:12.430] - Anne Howard You know, like, say, for example, we were we showed my mom part of the Grand Circle, actually, we did the complete grand circle with her over the course of two trips and then we wanted to pack and that a lot that day and went to Bryce. And I really need to do the full 18 miles. It's in it's an in and out, so it's not a loop. So you're making the choice to go all the way out that way and turn around like the best of us, really on the front end. [00:34:37.060] - Anne Howard So not just because it's not fabulous and you have all day go for it and you're going to it's going to get less crowded as you go. There is a benefit to completing, but that's one small example of like, you know, you don't need to do the full thing to feel like you've achieved the goal. And also knowing that when you hike to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, you need to hike back up. So be very aware of how that it's going to make your body feel because you probably haven't hike straight down and then straight up to that degree ever in your life and you are going to feel it. [00:35:08.980] - Anne Howard So not to say you can't do it, but know that you might just be really sore. And once whatever you do, it's hot and it's you need to be packing your own water and to plan for life pretty extreme. So it's it's more than a mile deep, but it's a mile like you've never experienced before switchbacks. So it's more than a mile. So. Yeah. So really weigh in your mind if you need to go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and plan accordingly, because it's going to take you all day and you might with kids, you don't want to be stuck in the dark and not make it back in time. [00:35:41.230] - Anne Howard So take that with a real cautionary tale. [00:35:45.390] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's a great tip, so we will wrap up and just ask if there's any final tips that you think people should consider. I was just thinking, you know, when you were talking that maybe this is a perfect kind of trip to make sure that you look into maybe buying a annual national parks pass, but maybe also Utah State Parks pass as well. I don't know if they offer it, but might be kind of a good idea. But do you have any tips for families that are thinking of planning this Southwest Grand Circle Road trip? [00:36:12.120] - Anne Howard Yeah, mean, I think it's just so great the national parks pass with 80 dollars. And if it just inspires any other trip in your year, it's certainly worth buying because it encompasses like hundreds of sites that gets you in for free. And it's just 100 percent do that. And it spurs our park system, which I think is great. Utah State Park Pass is actually a really good tip. I can't tell you specifics on that, but probably worth it. [00:36:35.190] - Anne Howard And we are big fans of the book, two National Geographic Books, one that's called Secrets to the National Parks and another one that is the scenic Highways and Byways book, which covers the Southwest in great detail, much less the entire country. We reference that book every time we take a big drive. It's fantastic. And then actually we wrote two books, so Ultimate Journeys four two that's published by National Geographic as well. We we love the Southwest and we have various sections. [00:37:06.930] - Anne Howard We go in super detail on MOAB, which is the home of of Arches and Canyonlands, and then we have a different Southwest road trip. Sections of that could be a great resource for you and also supports us. And it's a really great book. And and then, as we said comfortably, while others are glad book, which has got a lot of SWS options to. [00:37:24.590] - Kim Tate Perfect. We'll definitely link to those in the show notes. Thanks, guys. [00:37:28.850] - Tamara Gruber So now for maybe an easier question, I don't know. But it's a question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, what do you wear when you travel? It's hard for you because you guys are always traveling. But so maybe we should focus it on the Southwest. What would you recommend? What is your go to gear when you're doing one of these kind of road trips? [00:37:47.000] - Anne Howard Oh, my God, you need good hat. You need some strong sun, some incredibly strong sun. You need that, like wide brim, full ball caps. Not going to cut it like you need a proper sun hat. And yeah, knowing that the temperature swing is massive from morning to night. So, yes, layers being key. And I'm not a close person really. It's hard for me. I like, you know, since I literally drive with my closet, I have all things with me at all times. [00:38:15.860] - Anne Howard So like I've become a terrible packer because like I always have everything with me. But yes, it's a hot place and, you know, hydrating and some coverage and all that is like more important than ever. [00:38:26.780] - Kim Tate Do you have any favorite, like, shoes that you guys like to wear that works well for various rock shopping and hiking? [00:38:35.090] - Anne Howard Yeah, I mean, these are a little heavier, but I think they look cool without looking. They don't. They are they're heavy duty. Then they look and they're kind of like Mike, even worse is like jeans and it still looks good. A solo makes a really great, sturdy hiking boot that's actually like not so clunky and aesthetically pleasing. So that's that's great. They have women's and men's. So in the market for any boots I'm probably will get well is the next round. [00:38:58.370] - Anne Howard And I have these leggings that I swear by because now I'm discovered leggings can have pockets and I really just want like carry all my stuff, like to put a phone in my pocket, a little bit of money as needed. And even your car keys like without having to feel like you're jingling, jangling and things are being knocked around. Is this brand called Kyodan? And they are so soft and they have deep pockets. So I kind of tend to wear those when I hike. [00:39:30.450] - Kim Tate Great, that sounds awesome, thanks so much for joining us and why don't you let our listeners know where they can find you guys online and follow along on your adventures? [00:39:39.090] - Anne Howard Yeah, thanks so much. Has been really, really nice to you podcast. So we are we are we I say we my husband Mike and I with our couples travel blog is called Honey Trek. So Trek, like a long walk around the world and we are all over the place, but it's at Honey Trek across Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you like to hang out. And Honey Trek is also sort of the hub of our our nine years on the road and glamping tips and road trip. [00:40:07.080] - Anne Howard We have a lot of road trip content in general, and it's also where you can get signed copies of our books for gifts or for your own collection. [00:40:15.600] - Tamara Gruber That's perfect. Thank you so much. We'll link to those in the show notes and you know where you're going to be after Mexico. [00:40:22.110] - Anne Howard We bought a one way ticket. I don't want to be in Mexico where the camper is parked in Northern California. So, yeah, I mean, the trajectory. Might we kind of follow the seasons to we are going to probably head more north. Check out the far reaches of Northern California, which I think most people don't get to. Maybe check out Lassen Volcanic National Park, and the sort of the wild north of California and maybe into Idaho. [00:40:47.070] - Tamara Gruber Good. Well, have safe travels and thank you again. [00:40:50.580] - Anne Howard Yeah. Thanks so much. [00:40:55.800] - Tamara Gruber We are back and thanks again for listening. And if you do have any questions for us or, you know, travel advice that you need, just a reminder to send in a message, a podcast@vacationmavens.com or talk to us on social media. [00:41:09.390] - Kim Tate And in the meantime, tune in in another two weeks, because I'm going to be sharing all about my Oregon to California coast road trip and sharing kind of some of the things we did along the way. So stay tuned for that. Can't wait.

united states god california canada world new york city google rock las vegas mexico colorado secrets spring arizona tips planning devil gardens oregon north america funny san diego utah island circle mt native americans spooky idaho road trips usa today highways sacramento buddy rv southwest firm northern california bureau national geographic yellowstone national park national parks safari grand canyon hilton google maps parking needle pueblo baja goblin equally rushmore moab canyon navajo key west reef needles camper clearwater expedia sections arctic circle san miguel navajo nation glamping rvs holiday inn lonely planet land management tyrannosaurus rex national forests escalante monument valley arches zion national park us states narrows red rock windows pcs rving lake powell virgin river howards sws bryce canyon bears ears mesa verde arches national park canyonlands baja mexico byways bears ears national monument fort myers beach mesa verde national park horseshoe bend asolo capitol reef anne howard lassen volcanic national park full episode transcript honeytrek national geographic books ultimate journeys utah state parks lamar valley vacation mavens announcer welcome we3travel stuffed suitcase

188 Travel Tech for Vacations

Play Episode Listen Later May 4, 2021 53:34

Sometimes we want to avoid technology when we travel, but other times tech can actually make travel easier and more enjoyable. Stay tuned this week as we chat with Scott Tharler, The Family CTO, to get his recommendations for family travel. About Scott Tharler Married with three children, Scott Tharler is a gadget expert with over 20 years of experience writing consumer technology columns for Club Life Magazine, Gear Patrol, Maxim, Fodor's Travel, American Airlines and many others. He’s performed live gadget demonstrations on TV and radio, as well as for public schools and libraries, and at private companies and retreats. And this past fall, Scott launched The Family CTO, a new kind of gadget site to help you enhance your digital lifestyle with fun, practical gadgets. To hear the latest episode of The Family CTO podcast, just ask your smart speaker to “play The Family CTO podcast.” Or find and stream the show on your preferred podcast platform. If you’d like to see all sorts of helpful tech solution roundups, reviews and buying guides—or ask Scott a gadget-related question—head over to TheFamilyCTO.com. You can also follow Scott on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. Travel Tech Recommendations This post contains affiliate links. If you click a link and make a purchase we may receive a small commission. RoadTrippers is great for discovering roadside attractions and local recommendations. AllTrails is helpful to find hiking trails and read reviews and see pictures from real people. GasBuddy is helpful for finding gas stations, especially those that have cheaper prices. Scosche FrescheAir portable HEPA air filter is great for getting rid of odors on long road trips. The Calm App is helpful for providing sleep sounds or helping you get to sleep at night when in a new place (or at home) For road trips, it helps to have a reliable stand for your phone, especially if you are using it for GPS. Scott recommends the GoDonut, which is a little round phone or tablet stand. Iottie is a dash or windshield phone mount with Amazon Alexa built in. Wilson Electronics WeBoost is a cell signal booster for cars. Eggtronic Power Bar is a battery that allows you to wirelessly recharges two phones and a watch at once. QuietOn Sleep Earbuds offer active noise canceling to drown out noise when trying to sleep in a hotel room. Loop Earplugs are not electronic, but they naturally attenuates concerts and loud noises and are also good for sleeping. Bringing along a Roku Streaming Stick+ or an Amazon Fire stick will help provide entertainment in the hotel room if the TV has a port that you can plug into. Nomatic accessories such as the wallet and Navigator Tech Organizer are useful for storing cords and accessories. Twelve South AirFly Pro is a 2-way Bluetooth headphones adapter for connecting two headphones / AirPods to one device. Puro Sound Labs has volume limiting Bluetooth kids’ headphones. Pictar Pro Grip is a smartphone grip, charger, and remote shutter which is great for using your phone as a camera. Insta360 Go 2 is a tiny action cam Western Digital My Passport Wireless SSD is a small wireless drive for storing extra photos. You can put the SD card from your camera into it and it will automatically back up your photos. And because it is wireless you can share it with others. SanDisk Ultra Dual Drive USB Type-C is a good back up for Android phones and the SanDisk iXpand Flash Drive Go is good for backing up iPhones. Inrix Driving App is a good traffic monitoring app that if you plan ahead, you it will tell you the best time to go and during your trip, it shows you the best route. ScottEVest offers great tech-oriented travel clothes with lots of pockets. SkyHour lets you donate or save money toward flight time. ACBC offers zip travel shoes for men that lets you change out the top of the shoe. Link Flip-shoes is a topless, no thong flip flop. [00:00:00.120] - Kim Tate Gadgets and gizmos galore today, we're talking about family travel tech. [00:00:16.760] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.640] - Tamara Gruber So Kim we're both back from our road trips. [00:00:34.100] - Kim Tate And I don't know why I'm cheering that. I kind of want to be back on it. [00:00:39.020] - Tamara Gruber Don't tell your husband that. But I'm wondering, we were going a long time. You were gone a long time. Did you find any, like tech or apps or things that you found really useful on this trip? [00:00:51.620] - Kim Tate Yes, I actually have some good things to mention. And so this is perfect timing. I think I'll start with the app thing because there are two apps that I use tons. [00:01:01.010] - Kim Tate And the first one was called Road Trippers. And we've talked I think we've talked about road trippers in the past. And I know you and I did a giveaway of a road trippers plus membership, which I think is pretty affordable. It's I want to say twenty four dollars a year, if that sounds right. I don't know if that sounds right to you. [00:01:18.380] - Kim Tate So they actually gave me a complimentary one to try out. And so I thought, OK, I'm planning this massive trip. And we went basically from the Oregon coast all the way down the coast of Northern California and then kind of ducked inland and went down to stay at a friend's guest house for a while. And so I planned the whole trip with this road trippers plus. [00:01:37.310] - Kim Tate And I absolutely loved it. It was cool. I think using the app is better. At first I started just using it on my desktop, like on through a Web browser, and once I installed the app, using on your phone is way easier, but it just helps you, you know, map your route and find little that kind of like roadside attractions. [00:01:57.230] - Kim Tate But there's some really cool stuff on there. And like there was this one part where it was like a scenic byway. And I thought, oh, that's cool. So I added it to my itinerary. And then I looked on alltrails and found a hike to go with it. So that's the other app I used was on this trip. A lot that I recommend is all trails, but yeah. So Road Trippers Plus was just cool because it people can also add photos. [00:02:18.230] - Kim Tate And so you really get a sense of like because one was like the largest totem pole and I thought, well that's pretty cool, like my girls might like that. But then when I looked at the photos I was like, yeah, it seems kind of like a cheesy tourist stop. [00:02:29.330] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Like you've been to Vancouver. [00:02:31.520] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Like so so we skipped that, you know. So that's the idea is that it has some of those things. But also, you know, I finally decided on this trip, I wanted to do a drive thru tree and so I went and I got to see like what the drive through. There was three of them that are kind of the main ones that I know about. And I looked at the pictures and then also read the reviews and what people said. And it helped me decide that, like, OK, we're going to do this one that's in Klamath. [00:02:55.940] - Kim Tate And so I really liked it for that sort of stuff because it is user generated content. So I loved that there's reviews about the spots and, you know, sometimes there's good photos and you really get a feel for it. [00:03:07.160] - Tamara Gruber So that is what I like about all trails. You know that you can really get a sense of what you're going to see and how hard it is and things. And then, yeah. So it's nice to see it has that kind of community because I haven't done the plus a pro version, but I did look at it on my desktop when I was planning my trip, but then I ran out like the free version only has like so many stops or something. [00:03:26.150] - Kim Tate Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:26.840] - Tamara Gruber But I did see like we were going to drive past the what's it called. The Oh gosh. What's that movie. The baseball movie with Kevin Costner. Field Dreams. we're going to drive past that site. So I was like, oh Glenn. Like what else are we going to be in this corner of Iowa to, like, drive past that? Would you want to go? But then it turns out they were closed in March. [00:03:44.540] - Kim Tate Oh, no, that happened to us. We wanted to go to the Martinelli cider tasting that we've done before, actually. And I was like, oh, I'm going to add that on there. But yeah, they were closed. They're not doing it right now. So I was like, oh, bummer. [00:03:56.060] - Kim Tate But anyways, yeah. So I definitely if you're looking for new app, I think road trippers and paying for the plus, like Tamara said, you get to have as many stops as you want and so you can use it if you just want five stops and so you can get a feel for it and then you can really decide. [00:04:12.110] - Kim Tate But using the app, like if you're doing planning on your iPad or your iPhone is the key. So that was the one thing. [00:04:17.960] - Kim Tate And then, like you already said, all trails is huge. And I actually use that. It was so cool because we found we were driving through Oregon and I realized kind of the timing. It was a nasty, nasty day. And so the day I was going to do this big and didn't stop, it was gross. It was so windy and gross. [00:04:35.270] - Kim Tate And I said, well, there's no point in us going because we're just going to be cold and miserable. And so then the next day, I was looking that night on trails and trying to find hikes, you know, along this stretch we were going to be doing and I found a dune, you know, a dune hike. And it was this random, like I never would have known where it was. It was like John P. Duganhim trailhead or something like that. [00:04:58.940] - Kim Tate And I wouldn't have known to go there. And sure enough, it was a tiny parking lot, probably ten cars. And we parked and we we hiked maybe a quarter of a mile in. [00:05:07.520] - Kim Tate And then all of a sudden we came out to this amazing, huge, like massive felt like the Arabian desert sand dunes. So awesome. Yeah, and if it wouldn't have been for all trails and just kind of looking and like you said, you know, being able to see the photos that people have submitted and really getting a feel like I like all trails because it shows you like the actual route and it gives you the distance. [00:05:29.490] - Kim Tate So you can see like, oh, it's a loop, it's not back and it's just it works really well. And then it has a really cool, like getting there section for most of the trails, not all of them. And it helps you. [00:05:39.870] - Kim Tate Like I said, it helped me go OK, right after the city. I need to kind of be looking because there's this campground. It's the turns right after that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:48.360] - Tamara Gruber So that sounds fun. So any other tech or apps that you used? [00:05:52.560] - Kim Tate Yeah. So another app, one more app. And then I have one tech thing. So another app that I loved was called Gas Buddy and I've heard of that before and I know I used it in the olden days like when it first came out, but I actually got it again and I found it really useful on a road trip because I actually ended up using Costco gas stations a lot. [00:06:10.140] - Kim Tate And same with Fred Meyer because we're Costco members. And like at one place, we saved 30 cents per gallon by just driving a mile down the road and going to a Costco instead. And so, you know, I mean, it's not always worth it, but at 30 cents a gallon, it saved us about five or six bucks. So it was worth the little one mile down the road type thing. [00:06:28.440] - Kim Tate But I think gas buddy's just great because you can really see that, oh, in this city, should I fill up now where our hotel is or should we get on the road for an hour and then fill up? Because I'm I kind of like to keep my gas really full, especially when I'm traveling on my own. Yeah. I'm like, once it gets below a half a tank, I'm like, okay, keep my eyes open, you know, where's where's the next gas fill up? [00:06:48.000] - Kim Tate I'm going to do so anyways. But yes, a gas buddy was good. And then the one piece of tech that I absolutely loved and like full disclosure, these guys sent me this item by skosh and I got it from CES, which took place virtually in January. [00:07:02.340] - Kim Tate It's called The Fresh Air HEPA Air Purifier. It's an air purifier that's like a cylinder. So it almost is like a coffee tumbler type thing. And it actually fits perfectly like in a cup holder in a car. [00:07:14.190] - Kim Tate And I was wondering, I'm like, OK, how much use are my going to get on this? But we're going on a road trip. So I said, sure, send it to me, I'll try it out. [00:07:20.820] - Kim Tate And it was so useful for these days of like eating in the car, because I will admit we ate McDonald's a couple of times and then one time we actually got like fish in the car, like fish and chips and coleslaw, and we're eating it in the car. And even though you throw the garbage away, your car still kind of stinks. And I turn this thing on after we would eat. And it really worked like it was amazing. And then the next morning, because almost every day for me, I have a really sensitive nose. [00:07:46.140] - Kim Tate And so. Yeah. So you know how you park in the hotel and like, you don't really notice it because you've been in the car the whole day. [00:07:51.750] - Kim Tate But then you go sleep in the hotel and then you come out the next morning, you open your car and you're like, OK, yeah, it smells like fish or McDonald's or whatever. I did not experience that on this trip at all. And so I think this thing really helps. So anyway, that's my one piece of advice [00:08:05.220] - Tamara Gruber We ate in the car a ton also because it was just safer and I told Hannah, she's going to turn into a chicken nugget because they're going to start, like, calling her Nugget. I think we had more fast food in those two weeks than we've had like the last two years. It was crazy, but it's just easier and honestly, like it felt safer, like some of those kind of things. So, yeah, usually I would love to do all the local stuff, but we didn't this time, so I could have used that for sure. [00:08:30.540] - Kim Tate Yeah, it's and I mean it is, I think it's, I think it's ninety nine dollars so it's not cheap, cheap. But if you do spend a lot of time in the car, I was, I was impressed with it. I felt like it worked. So I'm just thinking also like after picking up kids from athletic practice might be good. [00:08:46.080] - Tamara Gruber Definitely. Yeah, for sure. So I remember even when we were we were talking a couple of years ago about that road trip that you took out West with like a bunch of teenagers near like. [00:08:56.910] - Kim Tate Yes. Their feet. Yes. Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Perfect timing for, like, you know, summer road trips with teens. [00:09:05.130] - Tamara Gruber Well, those are definitely good recommendations. I would feel like we didn't use nearly as much, although I will say that I lived with the Calm App because I needed that to for background noise, for sleeping. [00:09:18.510] - Tamara Gruber And I also tried I think we're going to talk about this when we get into our interview. But I did just get some air pod pros and they're supposed to be noise canceling. But let me tell you, it's not quite enough to block out my husband's snoring. And the other thing is I didn't realize how short their time frame was because I used to have, like, the Bose sleep buds and they would last night. So these like go, they stop, they run out of battery at like six hours or so. [00:09:44.220] - Tamara Gruber And so I would find myself like waking up and then I would take them out and I would like put them in the, you know, in the charger and like just like kind of like doze a little bit, hold it in my hand for a while. Then when, like, it always seemed the time of morning when Glenn got really loud. [00:09:58.440] - Tamara Gruber So then I would put him back in for like another hour or so, like I need to charge these things. But the calm app at least, you know, like, well, it does do some calming. I actually enjoy it for sleeping, but I like the this kind of the sounds that they have. [00:10:12.120] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, that was really my only thing, although I definitely need. Those little tinier, you know, earplug things that go in the ear, yes, these things definitely still hurt as a side sleeper. [00:10:23.400] - Kim Tate So, yeah, I, I couldn't handle that because like you said, I'm a side sleeper, so. [00:10:28.950] - Tamara Gruber Well, I know that Scott has a lot of other recommendations for us, so why don't we jump over and start chatting with him and find out what other tech he has to recommend. [00:10:45.960] - Tamara Gruber So today we're here with Scott Tharler, and he's a gadget expert with over 20 years of experience writing consumer technology columns for Club Life magazine gear patrol Maxim, Fodor's Travel, American Airlines and others. He's also performed live gadget demonstrations on TV and radio, as well as for public schools and libraries. [00:11:03.900] - Tamara Gruber And this past fall, Scott also launched the Family CTO, which is a new kind of gadget site which helps you enhance your digital lifestyle with fun and practical gadgets. So welcome, Scott. [00:11:14.340] - Scott Tharler Hey, thanks for having me here. [00:11:16.110] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's nice to talk to a gadget guy because I think, you know, I know Kim has reviewed quite a bit of gear in the past, you know, on her website. And I come from a tech background. So I think we both have that in our brains, which is probably why we started podcasting together, too. [00:11:32.820] - Kim Tate Yeah, I'm excited. I've always kind of been an early adopter, too, which my husband hates because he he never buys the first iteration of something. He always waits a little longer. And I'm sort of getting into his line of thinking, but I still like having the brand new gadget. [00:11:46.860] - Scott Tharler Well, there's something nice about having something that helps you out when you need it most. And I'm so into travel tech because that's it's the whole reason I got into gadgets. It's when you want something to help you enjoy stuff more or you want to make sure that you're connected and whatever that means to you, tech can help you on your trip. [00:12:07.980] - Tamara Gruber So before we jump into some specific tech recommendations, can you tell us a little bit about, like, your family and how did you get into tech as a career? [00:12:17.740] - Scott Tharler Sure, well, I'm married with three kids, they are 10, eight and four, which is they are interesting ages. I think every age is an interesting age, but those are interesting as they're starting to get to those preteen and teen years. [00:12:32.410] - Scott Tharler I got into gadgets, I guess I was always into watches. I first started getting into watches, probably when I was about my kids' age. I was like eight or ten and I had a fancy watch that could not only digitally tell you the time, but the seconds. And it had an alarm like that's what passed for fancy back then. And from there that was like my gateway drug to gadgets. I had watches that could tell you the temperature, that had a calculator that played games that could dial the phone. [00:13:04.540] - Scott Tharler And it's very funny now because I don't even wear a watch now. But watches were kind of how I got into it because I just love the idea of always having some tech with me. [00:13:13.960] - Kim Tate That's cool. I was always jealous. I was not a Swatch kid. I wanted a Swatch, but my family couldn't afford one. So when you speak of watches, I kind of have these flashbacks to my nervousness of people who own the Swatch watches. And I remember playing Snake on a couple watch I had at some point. [00:13:34.300] - Scott Tharler Yeah, there's definitely some Swatch envy out there, but I, I still look at watches. I'm jealous of my kids because now their watches have cameras and stuff built in and apps and they're listening to music from them and stuff like I literally couldn't have even dreamed of back then. [00:13:51.940] - Kim Tate So we know that Tamara and I, we love tech and we're definitely into it. And so we're definitely excited about this and helping our listeners learn a little more about maybe some cool travel tech. [00:14:02.650] - Kim Tate So outside of your phone, what do you think is the best tech gadget that somebody could bring with them when they're traveling? [00:14:10.500] - Scott Tharler You know, it's a tough one because there's so many, you know, on some level, I'm I'm almost disappointed if I don't get stopped going through TSA because it's like, dude, I have so many things with me, I'm going to say something disappointing. My most favorite gadget is just my brain, because I am always thinking, like, OK, what am I going to be doing? [00:14:31.380] - Scott Tharler How am I going to be using this? And so what winds up happening is there's not just one special gadget, but I take a lot of time to pack cords and adapters and accessories to make sure that I have what I need so that if I'm in the car, you know, OK, we're going to be renting a car. So I'm going to want to bring a car adapter so I can charge my stuff in the car or I want an audio, Jack, so I can make sure that if I want to play something from the TV in this place that we're staying at, that I can play it on this. [00:15:06.060] - Scott Tharler So it tends to be more functional stuff. And I start packing. My wife will say, like, oh, are you packed already? I'm like, yeah, yeah. I just need to throw some clothes in a bag. Like I always have trousers. [00:15:20.910] - Scott Tharler It's always electronics first because I really it's like when you pack you think, what am I going to be doing? I'm going to be going hiking. So I need comfortable shoes, comfortable socks and a water bottle and a hat. I do the same thing, but I think I want to make sure that my water bottle has a sensor on it to tell me that I'm drinking enough water. And given that we're going to be hiking, I'll probably want to bring a three hundred and sixty degree camera so that I can take pictures of everything around me and really get some great panoramic shots. [00:15:50.820] - Tamara Gruber So you're not a minimalist, I think is what you're saying when it comes to to travel? [00:15:55.980] - Scott Tharler I, I try to be I'm in theory. Well, when I'm packing, I'm not a minimalist. I have all sorts of redundancy when I'm packing. But when I actually go out. Yeah. I don't want to be schlepping around. You know, if we're at a waterfall in a state park, I want to be enjoying the waterfall. I don't want to be fumbling through my bag looking for just the right stand or just the right camera, just the right anything. It's important to know when to put your gadgets down and actually just enjoy where you are. [00:16:25.730] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's a great point. [00:16:26.930] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, and there's only so much you can fit in your bag, I always find, like I finally ended up selling my drone because I found I was always trying to bring, like, a tripod, my camera, the drone, all the cords, your laptop, you know, like ever your GoPro for the actual shots and too much stuff. [00:16:45.090] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. But anyway, I thought it would be helpful if we kind of break it down into different kinds of travel when we're talking about family travel and see, you know, maybe some of your recommendations for that type of environment, you know, what will help us in, you know, different types of travel environments. So maybe we can start with road trips since a lot of people are doing those right now. Do you have any tech gadgets that you would really recommend for people going on a road trip? [00:17:08.120] - Tamara Gruber And I say this, Kim and I are both, you know, have big road trips coming up, so. [00:17:12.720] - Scott Tharler So the first one I mentioned is a car adapter. There are plenty of ones where there are very small ones that can charge to a USB like a regular if you have your charging cord with you and they can do a USB, see if you have that kind of a device. So I would look for something small that can charge multiple devices at once. [00:17:34.020] - Scott Tharler And then also I think stands are important things that hold your phone or your tablet in place. I just got this really interesting one called a go donut, and I do not like the name of it, but it is actually it's like four inches across. I'm actually holding one right now and it's like the size of a donut. And then it has these slits in there that allow you to put your phone or tablet at different angles. And so you could put this on, say, the armrest and then everybody in the back seat is watching something. [00:18:05.640] - Scott Tharler So that's cool. There are other ones out there that are more they would keep it more secure. So if you're bouncing all over the place, you don't have to worry about it going. This is I mean, it's pretty steady, but there are other things that I bring along that are more like a clamp that clamps on to one end and then it clamps your phone into place. [00:18:24.180] - Kim Tate Yeah, I've seen those that, like, clamp onto the headrest and then lock in the phone. And I've always felt like those were a little safe, you know, nice. A little bit of a safety in case there was an accident or something. You don't have this projectile flying around. [00:18:35.580] - Scott Tharler Yeah, you don't. You want as a rule, you want like the fewest number of things flying around the cabin. So there's actually one there's a company called Iotti and I'll send you a link and we can put it in the show notes. But they have this it looks sort of like a charging stand, but it's a suction cup that goes to an arm and holds your phone in place. And it actually has Alexa built in. And so you have your Amazon smart assistant with you in the phone, in the car, and then you basically just tell in the app, the Alexa app, that you want this to work. [00:19:12.060] - Scott Tharler So I know that whenever we go someplace, we go to an Airbnb or a hotel or whatever, the kids feel like they're more at home. If Alexa is there and I'm not going to bring the Alexa speaker everywhere we go, but it's nice to know if you're in the car, you can say, hey, Alexa, how far are we from the nearest restaurant or whatever? And it's a it's a hands free thing. So you don't have to worry about, you know, fumbling with your phone or your tablet while you're driving. [00:19:40.140] - Tamara Gruber I wish I had something like that when my daughter was little and she would just ask so many questions when we were driving. And I was always like, why don't you write that down in your notebook and we'll look that up when we get home because mommy didn't know the answers. [00:19:53.610] - Scott Tharler Yeah, there are so many ways of passing the time. And I think, you know, I think gadgets are one way, but I like the fact that my kids are getting old enough that we can do all sorts of fun word games and math games and more of like the kind of things that I would do as a kid to pass the time when I wasn't we didn't have phones or anything like we didn't even read in the car. It was just sort of playing games. [00:20:17.910] - Scott Tharler And so there's part of that. But for people who do use their phones and tablets a lot, it's good to have something like we boost, which is basically it boosts your cellular. So if you're going to be driving and getting, you know, a change of scenery, you could be going through some parts that you're only getting one or two bars. And so it's good to know that you have connectivity. And so there are things that are it's either a stand that you put your phone in or it could be something that boosts several devices, like whatever devices are in the car so that you always have cellular service. [00:20:53.700] - Scott Tharler And I think that's a good one for people who are thinking about road trips. That's really cool. [00:20:58.680] - Kim Tate Yeah. Especially as since so many of us rely on our phone GPS and you have those little moments where it's like, I can't find you any longer and you're driving along hoping that you're not going to miss a turn. Yeah, yeah. [00:21:09.810] - Tamara Gruber It looks like you're driving through outer space or you're off the road. [00:21:14.640] - Kim Tate Anything else about road trips? [00:21:17.130] - Scott Tharler Road trips are interesting because it's not like when you're flying, you think I want to bring the fewest number of things possible and things need to be light. When you're bringing stuff on a road trip, then that's when I would think about bringing a drone instead of, you know, a different camera. So there are drones that sometimes I'll bring a drone along. [00:21:39.390] - Scott Tharler It's not like an always thing. But I do think that there's some things that you think like, oh, I'll I'll just put this in the back and then if I use it, it's OK. Coolers are a good example. Actually, it's funny because they're not really super techie, but I started to write a piece about Cooler's because I love the the family CTO is all about the lifestyle and like, what are you doing? What problem are you solving? [00:22:02.760] - Scott Tharler And there are a lot of different colors. And I didn't know until I did the research that in this article I'm going over like ten different kinds of cooler's. So, for instance, you might have a backpack cooler if you're going hiking, you might have something where it's more about the kind that you put when you're rolling onto the beach. So you want to make sure it has good wheels that go in the sand or there might be a different kind that does better for ice retention if you're going out camping. [00:22:29.900] - Scott Tharler And so it really depends on the kind of trip. And so for all of these gadgets, it's thinking about what are you going to do and how can the technology serve you rather than how do I get 100 gadgets into my car? It's really thinking about the the purpose of the gadgets. [00:22:47.780] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think you have to think also quickly about Coolers. We have like a little mini fridge for cars. That's supposed to be like a cooler. But we've realized it's really a pain in a way because it's really hard to open the door unless you keep a cushion kind of around it. So you can't pack the car as tight as you'd want, whereas if you have one that opens from the top, you could just open it and grab something out of it. [00:23:08.090] - Kim Tate And then when they started inventing the car light, I don't know, I'm so old. I just noticed a cigarette light adapter. But whatever that's called and the 120 volt or something in the back, those worked so well because he could plug those fridges right in the back. But we still have older cars and so we don't have one of those. But when we've rented cars on a trip, it's been nice to be able to plug directly in back there instead of having a big cord going all the way up to the front. [00:23:33.380] - Scott Tharler Yeah, and they have some now. There's a company called Go Son that has essentially the ice list cooler and it's solar powered. So you can not even have to worry about that. You can charge it up beforehand and then use solar to just keep it going if you're especially if you're out camping and stuff like that and you have some sunshine. [00:23:52.250] - Kim Tate That's awesome. Oh, well, what about for hotel rooms and vacation rentals, you know? And I have a few of those coming up. So any products that you think, you know, we mentioned the Alexa, but anything else you think maybe makes it feel a little more comfortable tech wise? [00:24:08.820] - Scott Tharler Yeah, I mean, tech wise, the first two things I always think of are basically power and audio or power and entertainment. [00:24:17.520] - Scott Tharler So for power, I have this thing here called the Egg Tronic Power Bar, and you can't see it because we're on a podcast. But it's essentially like it looks like a bar that's about the size of a maybe a thicker version of like a big remote control. And then there are three spots on it. And it's essentially a battery that you can wirelessly charge like two phones and a smartwatch on at the same time. And I love that because I don't want to have to start worrying about where am I digging for outlets. [00:24:48.360] - Scott Tharler And I'm not going to bring the same dock that I have by the side of my bed. You know, I don't want to start worrying about that. And so it's nice and portable and it's a big battery. So it is going to charge like three things and and be good. What's another one? I think for entertainment stuff, you could bring a streaming stick. So like a Roku or an Amazon fire stick. Those are fun to bring because it's little. [00:25:14.220] - Scott Tharler And if you're someplace where either they don't have a lot of TV or you get stuck on a rainy day, you can sort of plug in your streaming stick, whatever it is, into the HDMI port of the back of the TV and then give it power. You do have to remember to bring your remote. I've done that where I forgot to bring the remote. But if you do that, then essentially it's like you're bringing your entire collection of entertainment like you never, never in the old days would you have brought like a DVD player and a remote and three hundred DVDs. [00:25:46.440] - Scott Tharler But this you're just bringing bringing something that's like the size of a USB drive and you basically have all your movies. So I like the idea of doing that. It just has to connect to whatever the the Wi-Fi is. [00:25:59.250] - Kim Tate And my girls actually we've forgotten remotes before, but they'll use their phones. So I guess at least with the Amazon fire, it has an app that you can use as a remote on your phone. [00:26:07.980] - Scott Tharler So, yeah, and that's a great backup. I've actually had to do that with the Roku before. So as long as as long as your phone is on the same Wi-Fi network as the streaming stick, then that's a great workaround. [00:26:20.400] - Tamara Gruber It's funny, my daughter just asked me the other day, I think the Grammys are going to be on on a certain night or some awards show that she went to watch while we were traveling. [00:26:28.560] - Tamara Gruber And she's like, do you think the hotel will have CBS? They are so used, like only doing streaming kind of stuff they don't even know, like regular TV? [00:26:38.700] - Scott Tharler Yeah, yeah. I my kids are growing up in a very interesting world where, like, if they can't listen to the exact song that they want or watch the exact movie that they want. Right. Then, then they're just befuddled. Like, why can't we? Because in the olden days we had to wait for things like we had to wait for a commercial. [00:26:57.450] - Scott Tharler And then when The Wizard of Oz comes on once a year, you see it. You don't just say, like, you know, play Wizard of Oz and then it just shows up. [00:27:04.200] - Kim Tate Yeah, we actually just had that last night where we were going to watch a movie and, you know, they were ready to just rent it for three bucks. And I was like, well, let me just check and see if it's on anything, because we have all these services and then we also pay for Comcast. And sure enough, it was free on Comcast through like Fox Channel or whatever. And they were like, oh, but it has ads and commercials, mom. I'm like, too bad we're going to take advantage of this like free streaming and not pay three bucks for it. [00:27:33.990] - Kim Tate But they're just so like they just expect that they can just get it. And it's kind of funny. And we also happen to pay for Spotify, even though we already pay for YouTube music because they like Spotify and all their friends are on Spotify. And so I don't know. This tech tech world is when you have teenagers, it becomes a another level. [00:27:54.180] - Scott Tharler Yeah, I mean, you were talking about swatches, I remember there was a thing when I was in junior high school of that people would have these jackets that could pack into themselves and it was like fold up jacket and everybody had it. [00:28:08.160] - Scott Tharler And so, you know, that's one thing if you're buying like a 30 dollar jacket, but then there's like headphones and laptops and phones and there's so much stuff that teenagers are going to want to have that that seems overwhelming to me. So that's sort of what I'm bracing for. So you mentioned if you go to a vacation house or a rental or something like that, one of the things you might not be used to are the sounds that are going on. [00:28:32.160] - Scott Tharler And so I like to bring they're either passive or active noise canceling earbuds. And by passive, I mean it literally is just an earplug. And there's a particular brand called Loop that I like. And then for active, that's more of what you're used to for noise canceling. But these are tiny. There's a company out of Finland called Quiet On and they're so small that they fit into your ears and you can actually sleep with them on and they will last the whole night. [00:28:58.950] - Scott Tharler And it makes a big difference if it is canceled out snoring and other environmental sounds that I just didn't want to hear that help me sleep better on vacation because you want to be you want to be actually awake to enjoy your vacation. So it's nice to to be fully rested. [00:29:14.450] - Tamara Gruber I'm gonna have to look those up because I think I've talked about on the podcast before, I used to use the Bose sleep buds and then the battery stopped working and then the company recalled them actually because they couldn't get the battery to work and actually refunded me, even though it was I had had the product for a year. And I've been wanting them to come out with a new one. I think they did just come out with a new one. But then I also just recently finally gave in and got the Apple AirPods that are noise canceling. [00:29:39.870] - Tamara Gruber So they're not as small. So obviously not as comfortable, but they at least are multipurpose. But those sound those aren't great because that is always my issue is snoring and definitely any hall noise. When you're in a hotel like I can't stand when people walk by, like late at night making lots of noise or you're near the elevator or the ice machine, you know, something like that. Yeah. [00:29:59.460] - Scott Tharler Or people that don't realize that, like after 10:00 p.m., maybe just don't stand in the hallway talking. They're actually other people who are families who might want to get to sleep. I always feel like such an old person saying that. But, you know, we just paid to come down here, stayed at Disney Resort and we're going to be going before the park opens. So maybe get back into your room and have that conversation. [00:30:19.900] - Tamara Gruber That's why I hate when you either know that there's a wedding there because, you know, there's going to be the drunk people coming back late or when there's some kind of sports sports team tournament, it's those kids are going to be like, we're running up and down the hallways. [00:30:31.180] - Tamara Gruber Yep, yep. So we talked about kind of in the hotel room where vacation rental. We talked about in the car. I know it's been a long time since we've flown. We're probably a lot of us, maybe not everybody. But, you know, what are some things that you would recommend to use on a flight to make it more comfortable or more enjoyable? [00:30:50.040] - Scott Tharler Well, you know, I said that I am very much into the adapters and the cables and everything, but I don't want to be reaching into my bag until like a rat's nest of stuff to try to get at whatever I'm getting at. [00:31:03.420] - Scott Tharler So I like having an organizer that's just four cables and little accessories like that. There's a great company you probably know about them called Nomatic. And it's that the last part of it is spelled like automatic. So Nomatic has great suitcases and bags. And I just discovered that they have some other sort of everyday carriers, like a wallet, a very minimalist wallet that just carries your cash and cards in with this little material, as you can imagine. And then they have this thing that they just call their travel organizer. [00:31:35.220] - Scott Tharler That's exactly for what I just said. So it carries spare batteries and earbuds and memory cards and all your wires and things so that when you you know that you want to take something from that out, you can just pull out one thing, open it up, and there you have it. So I like that. You know, the old thing used to be, like you said, Bose, like everybody, you would walk down the aisle and you could just see like 20 different people wearing Bose headphones. [00:32:01.140] - Scott Tharler And those are great. But it's not it's not the first thing I think of. I think of like, are my kids going to be set? And I'm not necessarily going to get them three hundred dollar headphones. So I like the idea of getting them their own headphones. There's a company called Puro that makes great kids' headphones that are actually stylish and they are a volume limiting so they can't crank it up over eighty five decibels, which can cause hearing damage. [00:32:29.250] - Scott Tharler So I love Puro headphones for that. [00:32:32.190] - Scott Tharler And then the most important little accessory you can have sometimes, especially if you have two kids, is a splitter, but they actually make them. Now there's a company called 12 s that make something called the Air Fly Pro and it's basically a Bluetooth adapter. And so it works both ways. So way number one is that if you plug this into the armrest or sometimes they have like an audio jack in the back of the headrest, you plug this in and then you can have two different sets of Bluetooth earphones listening to that same audio, whatever that is. So that's a great thing to stop fights for 90 minutes. [00:33:13.830] - Kim Tate But it actually works important because I can't tell you how many times I've seen people bring Bluetooth headphones on a flight without their, you know, the cord that all the Bluetooth come with. But they forget the cord because they're just used to using Bluetooth and then they have the seatback entertainment for like a long international flight and they can't do anything that they have to ask for. [00:33:32.250] - Kim Tate One of the pay five dollars for the cheap, you know, dollar store earbuds from the airline. [00:33:37.770] - Tamara Gruber I still have like a JetBlue survey in my little travel kit, because for Hannah, I've had to do that a few times. [00:33:43.090] - Scott Tharler Yeah, yeah. It's awful. And these actually this 12 South product I just mentioned, there's another kind of Bluetooth adapter, which is it can take wird headphones and make them Bluetooth so it works the other way. So if you have your favorite wired headphones or earbuds or whatever, you can plug those into this and then it can be Bluetooth to whatever your phone or whatever is the source of playing the music. Cool, and I'll give one shout out of something that happened to me is, you know, wireless earbuds are so popular and like air pods, they actually have like little and this is not techie, but I don't know what you would call it. [00:34:23.460] - Kim Tate It reminds me of like glasses holders like that. You would keep on a pair of glasses to be able to hang there. But I had an earbud in and I was kind of falling asleep and it popped out of my ear. And then I'm like looking all over the floor for this earbud that just fell down. And, you know, it's not a good you don't want to be digging around for a earbud on the floor of an airplane. [00:34:42.660] - Kim Tate So just a heads up that if you are using earbuds, it might, you know, see if you can look into any that have a some kind of like especially it works with the airports. I know where you can keep them together. So if one pops out, you don't. It's attached to the other one. [00:34:56.910] - Tamara Gruber Still, I feel like that's why they make the announcement now. Like if you lose something, don't you know, like call your flight attendant or something. Yeah. [00:35:05.430] - Scott Tharler Yeah. I don't want to be digging around on the floor for anything that's I don't know. Everybody has their own thing with germs in most places like around my house, if something falls on the floor, I will pick it up and eat it. That's fine. But there's certain floors where I just go like I don't even like walking around. Hotel room floor is like without socks on. So I don't know. [00:35:28.650] - Kim Tate I hear you there. Well, why don't we move on and just quickly chat about photography? Because a huge part of travel is taking photos. So I know this can go down a huge you know, it could be an episode on its own, but just, you know, kind of top level. Do you have any favorite gear that you like to bring on family vacations for photography? Yeah, definitely, there are a bunch of different factors, I won't go into drones because we talked about that. [00:35:54.430] - Scott Tharler I think one thing is most people don't even think about bringing a traditional camera, you know, like the old school camera. And so if you're going to be using your smartphone, then there are a couple of things that you can do to make it even better. There's a company called Pictou that has something called the they're pro grip, that it does a few things. First of all, it looks like sort of half of a camera. And so it looks and feels like you're holding a camera. [00:36:23.770] - Scott Tharler So it's not you don't have to do that weird thing where you're like scissoring your your pinky and your pointer to try to hold your camera when you're taking pictures. But it actually will charge your phone while it's in there and it has some actual real life buttons on there. So you can do things like bring up a different mode or zoom in or actually take the picture by clicking a button, which is nice because then you don't have to, like, look away and fumble and touch your screen. [00:36:50.770] - Scott Tharler So having something like that is fun. Another thing if you're going to be using your phone is a gimble. Have you guys ever used a gimble when shooting photos or videos? Yeah, we've. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:03.280] - Kim Tate I own the Osmo pockets but and then the Osmo mobile too so. [00:37:11.290] - Scott Tharler Yeah. So like that's the DJI product. A lot of these drone companies realize they're making things that allow the drones to be steady and take great pictures. Hey, why don't we make everybody's picture study. So I would recommend having a gimble with you. [00:37:26.090] - Kim Tate I think for video mainly like if you're shooting video is what I've noticed on that. So, yeah, kind of my go to for that. [00:37:32.890] - Scott Tharler There's sort of something nostalgic like when you picture, if you picture like your parents, your grandparents like, oh, remember those pictures we took from Bermuda in the fifties? You picture it being kind of shaky. So there's something nice about it. But if you plan on watching something for more than like two minutes, like you really don't want shaky video. So it's nice to just get rid of that. Another thing that's good to have is if you're going to be taking a lot of pictures and videos, that's going to take up a lot of memory. [00:37:57.160] - Scott Tharler And so it's good to have a back up of memory. And so Western Digital makes a product that's basically like a wireless drive. It's about let's say I have it here. It's like about six inches by six inches and maybe an inch thick. And you can take if you do have a camera that you're shooting off of, you can take the memory card from that, put it in, and it will automatically back up your pictures. And it's a wireless drive, meaning that you can then everybody on their own phones can load up the app and see whatever pictures or video you shot from that. [00:38:34.180] - Scott Tharler So you could actually have a bunch of videos that are just on there. And then if you're waiting at the airport, you could be everybody could be looking at pictures and watching them and talking about them on their phones and stuff. [00:38:45.580] - Scott Tharler So I like having a way of backing up stuff so that I don't lose pictures that I've taken. I guess another one would be there's a company called Insta 360. And I actually just talked about this product called the Go on my podcast, and it's like the size of your pinky. And they just came out with the go to just this week. And it's so small that I read somewhere that it weighs the same as six pieces of paper. Like, it's super duper small and this is the kind of thing that you could wear and you can program it to just take pictures like every 30 seconds or every whatever. [00:39:26.620] - Scott Tharler And so it's a great action cam because it actually does it uses some software to do some stabilization optically. And then it's just also good because there are a lot of fun effects. [00:39:40.360] - Scott Tharler You can do slow motion, you can do time lapse. So like if you want to see, you know, it's kind of pretty to see a time lapse picture of, like the clouds going by along the beach in Hawaii or seeing a sunset or just seeing the rush of people in a city. So there are a lot of different fun effects that you can do and they make it really easy to edit stuff. And so it's a great little camera. [00:40:01.540] - Scott Tharler But really, the secret sauce is the editing. It's so easy to make really fun effects and it's just a new way. Instead of like, you know, in the old days, you take a picture, you print it out, you look at it like that's all there is to do with it. This there's so many different ways of sort of making your memories into a more of a multimedia experience. So I like their stuff. So what does that look like? [00:40:24.850] - Tamara Gruber I'm just trying to, like, picture how small it is. Is it you like clips on? [00:40:30.320] - Scott Tharler Yeah, so they have different mounts and clips, the one that I have, the original one is it has a magnetic back. So you would put like the magnetic back one little piece of it under your shirt and then this on your shirt on their website. They show people literally like it's on a sweatband or on a hat. You can clip it on there. [00:40:48.410] - Scott Tharler So it's more of like your eyes, your perspective, but it is tiny. And so there is sort of a conundrum with with having tiny tech. Like you just said, the last thing you want is to have a couple hundred dollar action cam falling on the floor of your airplane and then you don't know where it is or that you lose it in your Airbnb or wherever you are. So they have some some really good accessories that help you mount it to different places because they want you to be mounting onto your bike or your car or whatever so that you can take some interesting shots. [00:41:22.060] - Tamara Gruber Kim, all I can think about is how many how much photo editing you're doing to, like, straighten the horizon. [00:41:27.140] - Kim Tate Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It sounds like it's like stitching together and so [00:41:35.210] - Scott Tharler yeah, it'll stitch it together and then it's all this artificial intelligence stuff that you basically upload this stuff and it says, OK, I will tell you what your best shots were or I will put together a montage of like all the coolest video that you did. So that's that's what makes it really cool, I think. Yeah. [00:41:56.180] - Tamara Gruber But otherwise it sounds a little bit overwhelming. I'm just thinking back to back in the day when we would all come back from a trip and make like a photo book, you know, like how many of those photo books did we actually do? And, you know, like kind of I know I gave up on them in about twenty fifteen or something like that. [00:42:13.010] - Tamara Gruber But so that's we've certainly covered a lot so far. I'm just curious. We've talked a lot about hardware, but do you have any favorite travel apps that you like to use when you're planning? [00:42:23.990] - Scott Tharler You know, I'm so boring when it comes to that. I really just use Kayak to to look at what the best flights are because I just love the granularity of being able to say, you know, I want under this price range with no red eyes going through these airports. But for these dates, I tend to book hotels on Priceline. And because I do, I've become like a VIP gold. And so I just like the express deals. And if I what I like about Priceline is that you can get a good rate, but it it really rewards flexibility, which most travel does like. [00:42:59.780] - Scott Tharler And so if you don't have to stay in an exact place at an exact time, you just know, I want to be somewhere near Charlottesville because we're going to go on the Skyline Drive. And so, you know, within twenty miles you can find something that is a good deal. So I like those you know, there actually some apps I've used. You're talking about road trips. There's one called INRIX. That is a it's basically a traffic monitoring. [00:43:26.960] - Scott Tharler And I know other people use Waze or just Google Maps. It's sort of built in. But INRIX, I found if you say I'm going from here to here, it's the most accurate way of doing real time updates to say actually based on traffic, we think it would be best if you went this way. And then it has another interesting thing where you can slide the timeline. So it would say like, OK, it's three thirty, but what if we left at four and it will use whatever fancy eye is out there thinking of what's going to happen with the traffic to say, you know, if you go at three thirty, it's going to take you an hour. But if you go at four, it's only going to take you thirty five minutes. [00:44:04.580] - Scott Tharler So I kind of like that. Other than that, I think there's there actually some interesting things that are more like programs that I found. My daughter is currently in the fourth grade and apparently that's a magical age because there's a program that the government has called every kid outdoors where they get like a free pass to every state park or every national park. Every national park. Yeah. [00:44:27.920] - Kim Tate And so and they actually expand it to fifth graders this year as well because of the shutdown last year. [00:44:33.410] - Scott Tharler Yeah, and that's great. And there was another thing here I happened to be in in New York. And they have there's a program called Ski in New York where fourth graders can ski for free. So it's a golden time to be nine or ten years old. Like, there's all sorts of fun things, but I think it's just a matter of sort of looking out there and seeing what cool programs happen to be out there. The the only thing that I don't know if you've heard of, there's a site out there called Sky Hour. [00:44:58.250] - Scott Tharler Have you heard of that one? Sky Hour our is an interesting one. [00:45:02.210] - Kim Tate I know you can imagine what it does, but. [00:45:04.010] - Scott Tharler Yeah, yeah. No, it's like you when you recently had I think her name is Danielle from the the thought card, she was talking about saving up for trips. It's actually something to help you save up for trips, but it's something where people can help out. And the basis of it is that you pay for hours of flight, you're not paying for distance. You're not paying for like this is how much it is. [00:45:25.790] - Scott Tharler You literally I think it's something like, you know, it's sixty dollars. For an hour of flight and so you can start to do the math and realize, like if you're going to Florida or California, that might not make sense, but actually going to Europe, that's not that crazy. Like, it's not that crazy that you would pay for, you know, five or six hours to certain places in Europe. And so if I know you're going on a trip, I could say, hey, Kim, I'm going to donate an hour to your trip and then either other people add more hours to that or you just pay whatever the differences. [00:45:58.930] - Scott Tharler But it's basically good on any airlines. You're just paying for something that then gets instead of transferring points into a flight, it's if you have the right number of hours that turns into a flight. So I just thought that was an interesting spin on things I hadn't seen before. That's really cool. [00:46:15.430] - Kim Tate Yeah, I was thinking it was going to be I know there's websites that'll show you like the Sunrise and Sunset Times for specific locations so that you can do it. So I was thinking when you said Skaara, that was what I was doing. It was. But that sounds way cooler. And I think that would be really good. I was thinking to my graduation trips type thing where, you know, you can say, hey, donate an hour of flight time or something. [00:46:36.010] - Tamara Gruber That's pretty cool. [00:46:37.010] - Scott Tharler Yeah, but it's also that factor, like you're saying with your other guest, where you get to see it building up. So you get to see, oh, cool, I have this much towards my trip and it's not just like maybe I'll get to go on the trip or maybe I won't. Right. [00:46:51.280] - Tamara Gruber Right. You know, that's really neat. It makes you think of like when people get married and they register where you can kind of donate towards their honeymoon or something like that, it'd be another neat way to use it. [00:47:01.720] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, exactly. Well, we've certainly have talked about a lot of things, but we have a question for you that we ask all of our guests. And I imagine that you're is still going to have some kind of tech angle to it since you talked about water bottles of sensors and all these kind of things. But do you have any favorite brand of clothing or, you know, what do you wear when you travel? [00:47:23.800] - Scott Tharler I definitely do. And I think the first one is called Scotte Vest. And I am I am not the Scott and Scotte Vest. It's actually a friend of mine, Scott Jordan, that I've known for 20 years. And I love his stuff because it started off as just being literally like a fishing vest with a bunch of pockets in it. But it's grown to be shirts. I'm actually wearing a what they call their camping shirt now. It's it's like a nice short sleeved button down shirt. [00:47:49.210] - Scott Tharler They have pants and shorts and dresses. They even have a mask nowadays. But all of their stuff is based on not just having a lot of pockets, but bringing your tech with you. And I know when I'm going on a business trip, if I have the blazer, they have like a sport jacket with a lot of stuff. It literally saves me like a carry ons worth of stuff that I can put in there. And so I have cords and batteries and a lot of the stuff that I talked about, I will have in specific pockets in that. [00:48:19.390] - Scott Tharler So I'm a big fan of Scotty. [00:48:21.280] - Tamara Gruber Best you can tell your friend Scott that I also own two of the long cardigans that they have for women with those big, deep pockets. [00:48:29.650] - Scott Tharler Cool. Yeah. I mean, they they really have expanded. They have I guess they never got into shoes, but they have underwear. There's all sorts of stuff like if you want to for some reason, if you want to be walking around your hotel room and your underwear, but you also want your phone with you, then they've got you covered. [00:48:46.370] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I'm really picturing the pocket, you said. [00:48:50.210] - Scott Tharler Yeah, there's there's all sorts of fun ways that could go. But but basically I, I always have something. I always have like one or two things with me that are like it's usually like a polo shirt and a t shirt or, you know, like a camping shirt and a t shirt that have these pockets built in. And it's just it's nice. And it's also I think people nowadays are more accepting of the fact that you're going to have tech with you, but you still don't want to look like you're schlepping around a bunch of stuff. [00:49:18.610] - Scott Tharler So it's good at hiding the fact that you have definitely. [00:49:22.150] - Kim Tate I agree. Yeah. [00:49:23.380] - Scott Tharler The other one that I tend to bring with me, it's an Italian shoe company called ACBC and it stands for anything can be changed. And basically these are these you might have heard of these. They're like zip up shoes. And what I mean by that is that you bring along like one pair of soles and then you zip the tops off like and right here I'm actually holding them in my hand. And so if you're hiking during the day and you're walking around another part of the day and then at night you're going to be going to some nicer event or just going out to a nice dinner, then you could basically have just three sets of the tops that you zip on to the bottom and it takes up way less space. [00:50:04.480] - Scott Tharler You know, like when I go to the annual Consumer Electronics Show, I could have five pairs of shoes, but it takes up not that much more than just one or two pairs of shoes in my bag. [00:50:15.550] - Tamara Gruber Oh, that's really neat to look into, though, because I've not heard of it, I am familiar with, like the women's flip flop brand that has where you switch out like the top, you know, the thong part, but interesting. [00:50:26.840] - Scott Tharler Oh, it's funny you mention that actually, because there's a new company that I just I know you guys are fans of Oofos, but there's one that I just found out that they're based out of Israel and it's called Link. And they have what they call flip shoes. And they're like flip flops, except for they don't have the top part, just like the bottom part only. And so the bottom part goes like around your foot and hugs your foot and then you don't your front two toes don't have to grip on to the thong for dear life that like your foot, you walk out of your shoes. [00:50:59.630] - Scott Tharler So those look really cool. I haven't tried them yet, but they look really amazing. [00:51:04.090] - Tamara Gruber Sounds like modernistic space agey. [00:51:06.910] - Scott Tharler Yeah. Yeah, definitely. [00:51:09.100] - Kim Tate Well, Scott, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you online? Because I know a lot of this tech they're going to want to kind of see and you probably have a lot of reviews and pictures. So where can they find you? [00:51:19.570] - Scott Tharler So the company is called the Family CTO. And of course, we have channels on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. There's a podcast you can look up wherever you listen to podcast, you can look up the family CTO. But really, the website is the great launching pad. So if you just go to TheFamilyCTO.com, then there are links to all of that stuff. [00:51:41.960] - Tamara Gruber Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes, as well as a lot of the products that you mentioned today. And so I know I'm going to be Googling a lot of things after this interview and looking things up. So I hope that our listeners found it very helpful. And I really appreciate you coming on and sharing all your knowledge. You have gone much deeper than either Kim and I think I've ever done into a dove into this, you know, family travel tech. [00:52:06.350] - Scott Tharler Oh, it's my pleasure. I love talking about it. And thanks for having me on the show. [00:52:14.030] - Tamara Gruber So we're back. And I just wanted to give a shout out to one of our listeners, Lee. He wrote in because he was listening to the episode that we did with Nate from Room Steals about tips for finding hotel deals. And I know that Nate was asking us recommendations for comfortable men shoes, and we didn't really have a lot to tell him. So anyway, Lee recommends Cole Hahn. He really loves those. And he said that their souls were actually made by Nike, which I did not realize. [00:52:37.530] - Tamara Gruber So that explains why they're a little more comfortable. So guys that we've been ignoring, sorry about that. And we have some more recommendations for you. So thanks, Lee, for giving us an email and and giving us your tip. [00:52:50.300] Yeah, that's a good tip. I actually, you know, my husband has a very Cole Hahn working shoes that, you know, are kind of l

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187 Spring Break Travel Tamara's Road Trip to Colorado

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 20, 2021 61:48

This week we check in with Tamara about her family's spring break road trip to look at colleges. Find out how the trip went and why her visit to the Vista Verde Ranch in Colorado was the perfect spring break retreat. College Road Trip Stops The first stop was in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to visit Lehigh University. This historic town is popular at Christmas time and offers a cute downtown with lots of restaurants. The historic Hotel Bethlehem is nice but in need of renovation. If you visit, try the Social Still for dinner and the Flying Egg for breakfast. The second stop was in Cleveland to visit Case Western Reserve University. Located in the University Circle neighborhood near the Cleveland Clinic, this is a nice area to explore the city's museums such as the Museum of Art, Museum of Natural History, and Botanical Gardens. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland is offering timed-entry tickets, temperature checks, one-way traffic, and social distancing. It was not crowded at all, making it a good time to visit. The third stop was in Ann Arbor to visit the University of Michigan. The Graduate Ann Arbor is a perfect spot to stay to visit the college and offers one-bedroom king suites for families. If you are staying in town, have lunch at Zingerman's Deli, dinner at the Slurping Turtle, and breakfast, lunch or dinner at Sava's. Next up was the University of Madison - Wisconsin. Again, The Graduate Madison is a good spot to stay just off State Street and close to campus. If you are traveling through Nebraska, the Old Haymarket District of Lincoln, Nebraska, home of the University of Nebraska, is a cool neighborhood to visit. The next college stop was at the University of Colorado - Boulder. The Embassy Suites in Boulder offers beautiful views, one-bedroom suites, and modern decor within walking distance to campus. When in Boulder, plan to spend time in the Pearl Street Mall area. Two great dinner stops are Oak at Fourteenth and Santo Boulder. If you are visiting Colorado Springs, you will probably want to visit the Garden of the Gods park, but be prepared for crowds in addition to beautiful red rock formations. Tamara's family then spent a few days relaxing at the Vista Verde Ranch. This all-inclusive luxury ranch was an ideal spring break retreat offering snow tubing, snow shoeing, cross country skiing, ice fishing, snow mobiling, horse back riding and other indoor and outdoor options. The food is amazing and plentiful and there are a number of cabin options on property ranging from one to four bedrooms. On their way back, Tamara stopped in Topeka, Kansas, St. Louis, Missouri, and outside of Pittsburg, PA. In St. Louis, the Hotel St. Louis, an Autograph Collection property by Marriott, is a great place to stay with gorgeous large suites and a convenient location. If you are planning on visiting the Gateway Arch, be sure to by timed-entry tickets in advance. The social distancing protocols make for a pleasant, uncrowded stay with designated tram cars and viewing windows. See Tamara's tips for road trip mistakes to avoid. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.120] - Kim Tate We're back. Stay tuned to hear about our latest adventures. [00:00:16.230] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.260] - Kim Tate Tamara, we have just had, you know, a couple of awesome road trips. So I'm sure our listeners are dying to hear all about it. Everything that we've done, everything we learned or discovered. So this is our episode to kind of dish and just tell them about our latest. [00:00:46.920] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I was thinking as I was driving, I'm like, hmm, this is what I want to say about Nebraska. This is what I want to say. Well, you know, just kind of and I was like, I really should make notes, but I was driving for half the time, so I didn't actually make notes. [00:00:59.400] - Tamara Gruber But I'm excited to chat with you. It's been so long and I know we're going to go into more detail about your California road trip in a couple of episodes, because I know that that's a trip that probably a lot of people want to make. [00:01:11.370] - Kim Tate But we should definitely talk about your epic one, because how many miles and how many states did you hit? [00:01:15.990] - Tamara Gruber Oh, my God, 5000 miles. I didn't realize it was going to be quite that far. And I think I think because of the way we came back, we actually hit 16 states. [00:01:26.970] - Kim Tate Yeah. My goodness. Yeah. [00:01:28.260] - Tamara Gruber And I mean, a lot of those actually, for me, I had been to all of them before. But for Hannah, there were some new ones. For Glenn, there are some new ones. We saw, you know, a lot of ground, I will say, because we went in mid-March. I remember before we went, you were sending me pictures like it'll be pretty and you're sending me pictures of, like fields of wheat in the sun, sunset and like. Yeah, no, it is just brown. [00:01:50.940] - Tamara Gruber It's brown, brown, brown. So it was not a scenic road trip at all. I think a lot of our listeners know that we were going to look at colleges. We did have a really beautiful part of Colorado, you know, where we were in Colorado and we stayed at a ranch. And, you know, I could talk about that a little bit, but it did convince me, too, that I really should consider moving to Colorado at some point. But it was most of the trip was, you know, a little bit boring when it came to the scenery. [00:02:21.990] - Tamara Gruber But we did get to see quite a few colleges. And you know what? There's something about driving through huge parts of this country that it just stirs me. You know, like I just I it's so important to me to feel like connected. And I feel like I can visualize, like, what it is like to live in other parts of the country, you know, get a little bit more sense of like where people coming from, what their, you know, regular life is like, you know, because I'm just I've lived all my life in the Northeast and the Northeast we know is like, you know, it's crowded. [00:02:55.050] - Tamara Gruber It's just, you know, like one city blurs into the other, you know, in our rural areas are, you know, like you can't drive for miles and miles without finding, you know, a place to get gas or, you know, like any of these things. [00:03:08.490] - Tamara Gruber It's just very different. And so I really appreciate every time I'm able to, like, drive through a lot of this country. And I really I really hope that more people, you know, can do that kind of thing. You know, like even if it wasn't pretty, there was just something to it. [00:03:21.810] - Kim Tate It's just something to like the vastness and the diversity and everything to it. Yeah, I think that it's good for the coastal people to realize and experience the breadbasket of America like they term it because it is so different. And, you know, I grew up in the Midwest, of course, and knew nothing really about toll roads and all that stuff. And so that's always something. When I go to the coast, I'm always like, oh, there's there's toll roads in these places. [00:03:47.310] - Tamara Gruber So I just wrote a post about like road trip mistakes that people make because I feel like tolls is definitely one that people don't always pay attention to. [00:03:56.130] - Tamara Gruber And nowadays there's not always a man toll booth like it's often like electronic billing. And if you're not from that area, you don't have that system. And so then you have to try to figure it out. I can't even tell you how many hours I spent trying to figure out where I was supposed to pay the Illinois tollway, you know, and I don't I'm not sure I'm expecting I mean, like eight tickets in the mail. [00:04:16.530] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, I registered for your site. I filled out everything. But I'm not seeing, like, where I actually I we took pictures of every single, like, gate kind of thing. Like the time and the number, you know, because Glenn's been there before and I'm like, I can't figure this out. So some of the systems are not so easy to figure out. Come to the northeast and they're like what do you mean it's fifteen dollars across the bridge. I'm like yeah. [00:04:44.040] - Kim Tate Yeah. And it's you know, well we have on the West Coast like HOV lanes. Right. So we had where we couldn't even use the lane near San Francisco because we didn't have you there. And we have that in Seattle as well. Like you can use the HOV lane for a fee for a fee. [00:05:00.150] - Kim Tate But if you want to use it as a high occupancy vehicle, you have to have the, you know, Washington tag that's in your windshield and is registered to your vehicle on your plate. And so, yeah, it was kind of frustrating. I was like, oh, because we got hit in a major traffic. And like, I was like, oh, I want to be in that carpool lane, but I couldn't. I didn't want to pay whatever the fee was because, you know, in Washington, if you don't have the past, you have to pay three dollars to pay it by mail. They charge you a three dollar surcharge. So anyways, it's crazy. [00:05:32.830] - Tamara Gruber Well, I will say, I have a lot of overall observations of driving 5000 miles. Number one, our roads are crap. They are terrible. [00:05:42.130] - Tamara Gruber Like I know they're trying to pass an infrastructure bill and I can't even say how much we need it. Like I always comment on that around, like where I live. But I feel like I live in such a busy area, like it's get so much traffic. Well, you know what, we're driving i 80, i 70, i 90 like. [00:05:59.500] - Tamara Gruber And it's all trucks, there's so many trucks and it was you know, I don't know if it's more now or not, but like it was the point where it's not relaxing at all, even though it's just a straight highway. It's like because you're constantly passing trucks like we had had to drive. She just has a permit. Knock wood. By the time you hear that, she'll have her license. But she drove for like three hours in Nebraska and three hours in Kansas. And the speed limit is like seventy five. And she's like constantly like trucks are passing her, she's passing trucks. And it was she's like, I'm exhausted. I don't know if you see that on the West Coast, but it was terrible. [00:06:44.740] - Kim Tate Yeah, well, we went through Oregon and I guess in Oregon, it's one of the few states that allows three semi links. And I think you probably passed some, but I we don't have it in California or Washington. Oh, but it's semi trucks allow three, you know, the back seat and it says long load. [00:07:07.660] - Tamara Gruber I even said it like those trucks drive like they rule the world and like who cares about you. I had one literally drive me off the road like I'm so glad that I was driving and not Hannah because I managed to keep us like in the like in not a shoulder. I had to go into the grass but like straight without like like she probably would have with the car. It's like they I was next to it and not like far back, like next to its cab. [00:07:38.740] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And it started, you know, it put its turn signal on and it started coming and I'm like laying on the horn and it just kept coming. And so I had to go into the median and again, you know, you're like you're driving through grass and you're like seventy five miles an hour, you know? [00:07:52.790] - Tamara Gruber And then I was able to like, you know, safely get us back up, you know, on the road. And that almost happened to me multiple times. So I will say, like, it's not you know, it was not always pleasant driving. I would have loved to have gotten off on just some of the smaller roads, like when we were in like Wisconsin and Colorado, we were in some smaller roads that were like much more pleasant. Although let me tell you the other thing that I observed about Wisconsin. [00:08:21.730] - Tamara Gruber I felt like I was in another country. We have you ever seen this where the instead of, you know, how you have interstate, you know, we have Interstate 95, we have high U.S. Highway One, we have state route two. There are like state highways or, you know, it was like exit for Highway X, Y or an X. [00:08:42.070] - Tamara Gruber It was the letter letters I've never seen. I know we're going to have listeners that are like, what's wrong with you? But like, I had never I never seen that either. [00:08:52.570] - Kim Tate I didn't know that either. I are. We're just inspiring people to take road trips with all these. I'm just kidding. [00:08:59.050] - Tamara Gruber Sorry. anyways, these are the things you learn, right? [00:09:02.830] - Kim Tate Yeah, these are the things you learn. But I always think it's cool how the states have different highways. They have the little symbols. And I've never seen anything fun like in California or Oregon or Washington. But I know once we were in like I think Utah and they have like a beehive. Is there like have you seen. [00:09:18.400] - Kim Tate Oh yeah. It's like different shape. So, yeah, different states have fun little shapes and stuff, but I don't think we have anything fun. So I was wondering if you saw any fun shaped state highways. [00:09:28.510] - Tamara Gruber Not that I recognize, but I can kind of picture that. I'm pretty sure in New Hampshire there's looks like one of the mountain faces. I did learn that Nebraska. Oh, what's that? What was the town? [00:09:40.410] - Tamara Gruber Kearney, Nebraska is the sandhill Crane, capital of the world. As we're driving, this is the time that Hannah was driving. So I was sitting in the back because I'm like, you know, I need a break. And if I'm in the front, like, somebody needs to, like, be paying attention to her. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm just going to sit in the back for a little bit. I can't do it long because I get carsick, but I'm like, I'm going to go back there. [00:10:01.450] - Tamara Gruber So I'm just like looking out the window and I just see all these birds that I'm like they kind of look like Osprey, like they look like water birds, but they're all in these open fields, you know, because it's just like plowed fields now. And I'm like, this is so I. And I'm like, did you guys see that, did you guys see that and they're like, what? What's, you know, like I have nothing else to look at back here. You can't, like, look ahead of me, you know? [00:10:22.150] - Tamara Gruber So anyway, then we would drive past the sign that says the sandhill crane capital of the world. I'm like, oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, that's cool. [00:10:29.380] - Kim Tate I was going to mention with bathrooms when you're talking about stops and stuff is surprisingly I forgot about travel centers like for when you know about travel centers. [00:10:43.450] - Kim Tate They normally have like a food place in them, but I find they're the restrooms at most of those travel centers, like the big ones, like the TravelCenters of America, like the big T and A.. [00:10:52.750] - Kim Tate Yeah. Although it's funny, like growing up in the Midwest, we always laughed about the T and the giant T&A. But anyways, you know, it's normally a pretty good one. And so we stopped at that a couple of times. And I think that the other thing we had done was because she was looking for like a cheesy California keychain for a friend. And I was like, oh, we need to find a travel center, because that's the kind of stuff they have there. [00:11:16.480] - Tamara Gruber And yeah, like, that's that kind of thing is very common here in the East Coast. It's not like they're not always the labeled ones like like they're just like like if you're driving like I-95, it's like, you know, here's this rest area and it's there's gas and there's inside there's bathrooms, there's, you know, food court. And there's the little shop and the bathrooms there. [00:11:36.790] - Tamara Gruber Like I actually they're usually pretty clean, like they weren't when I worked at one back on the New Jersey Turnpike when I was 16. [00:11:43.630] - Tamara Gruber But it's pretty clean and you don't have to touch any doors, you know, like everything touchless, you know. So that is and it's very open like versus going into like a gas station that has like a one. [00:11:56.020] - Kim Tate Yeah, yeah. Or they've got like the paddle key you have to get. Yeah. That people have touched in the last fifty. [00:12:00.250] - Tamara Gruber But even and even if they have like one that has multiple stalls, it's like two or three styles and people might be waiting in a line and it's very close, whereas those are like so open, you know, that like the circulation is much better. [00:12:11.090] - Kim Tate Exactly. And there's normally find parking and certainly easy to get on and off and back on the highway. Yeah. So I really like those. And then we used rest stops a lot actually. And I was really impressed. [00:12:20.860] - Kim Tate I think rest stops are like the gift to road trips because for us, especially with teenagers and when they were little kids, we discovered this. [00:12:28.900] - Kim Tate Inevitably somebody is waiting for a bathroom, are looking for and they end up wandering down the aisles and wanting to get this chip in this drink. And you spend another hundred and fifty dollars on snacks that day because of all the stops for bathrooms that you ended up buying junk food. And I noticed at least on the West Coast, I think it was practically 100 percent mask wearing on all the rest stops. And I even noticed one point because I kind of I think it was partially me, because I noticed this older couple was walking towards me like walking their dog and they didn't have my son. [00:13:02.530] - Kim Tate And I, like, gave them a wide berth. Like I walked in the grass to go around them. And as soon as I passed, I heard the woman go, Oh, honey, we have our mask. Let's see, I'm going to go to the car and get our mask. Like she hadn't thought of it because she was thinking they were just going to walk our dog. But then she realized, you know, there's a lot of foot traffic. [00:13:17.050] - Tamara Gruber Right. Right. I've had that experience, too. Yeah. So for you, like when you say, like, rest stop, So that's like the building off of the highway where like, yeah, people walk the dog and there's bathrooms and sometimes there's like a brochure's or something but that's like yeah ok. Yeah. [00:13:31.810] - Tamara Gruber Great. Yeah. Yeah we have been, we have like the big ones kind of too. [00:13:36.460] - Kim Tate So yeah these are, I'm talking about the ones that are just like literally on and off the highway, I-95 there almost every twenty five miles ish most of the time. So but yeah. And there's definitely different qualities in some of them are nice and have lots of stalls and others are not great. [00:13:52.660] - Kim Tate But everyone we all went to always had toilet paper, had seat covers, running water, all that. So it was a good, good thing for us. [00:14:00.670] - Tamara Gruber It shows you our priorities that we're spending like five minutes talking about bathroom. I'm so sorry, everyone. [00:14:06.280] - Kim Tate They're like, OK, yeah, I'm bored. Yeah, we're like twenty minutes. And we haven't even started talking about your road trip. So let's jump to that. [00:14:18.220] - Kim Tate Let's talk about your specific road trip. We've talked about the mileage and the states, but what were the highlights? [00:14:23.980] - Tamara Gruber Let's see. I'll just run through an order because it's easiest for me to remember, like, in that way. But we our first stop was in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, which is known for its like Christmas things, because, as you can imagine. So we visited Lehigh University there and that was good. It was actually a very cute little downtown. It was good. [00:14:43.600] - Tamara Gruber I liked the university was beautiful, but it was not Hannah's favorite just because she wants something a little more integrated, even though it was like a very cute town, she's like it's more like town adjacent than town, like into like, OK, so that was our first stop. [00:14:56.440] - Tamara Gruber And then we headed off to Cleveland and we stayed in the university circle neighborhood of Cleveland. So we didn't see a lot of downtown, but I really explored that area. It's so it's case Western Reserve University is the school that we're visiting and it's right next to like all the hospitals and Cleveland Clinic, but it's also near there. Museum. So they have like this really nice green area, you know, with like parks and it's like the Wade oval and around it there's a botanical gardens, a museum of natural history, an art museum. [00:15:28.080] - Tamara Gruber And then also just a few minutes away, kind of right next to campus, too, is a contemporary art museum. So there's a lot of museums around there to explore. There's like a Little Italy neighborhood, you know, and of course, we spent time, like walking around campus. [00:15:42.210] - Tamara Gruber But then one of the things that we got to do was to go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, because I'm like, if we're going to go to Cleveland, like, we have to do this, like we all love music. [00:15:52.230] - Tamara Gruber You know, Glenn, you know, especially like is such a classic rock guy. But I was really surprised by, like, how up to date it was, you know, they had like outfits from Billy Eilish, you know, like it was it was very like all the like Harry Styles to like all the way up to date. [00:16:08.280] - Tamara Gruber And here's going to be my plug in my learning for this. It's like I know that everyone's going to head to the outdoors in the national parks this summer. I know in a couple weeks we're going to be talking about one of those kind of road trips. But I will say, if you want to be counterintuitive, it's actually really cheap to be in cities right now. [00:16:27.870] - Tamara Gruber And the indoor attractions are very quiet. [00:16:31.470] - Tamara Gruber And it's so well managed that I we felt so much safer in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame than we did when we went to the Outdoor Garden of the Gods in a park in Colorado Springs because you had to get timed entry tickets. [00:16:47.100] - Tamara Gruber Everybody has temperatures taken. It's one way traffic. It's all sanitized like everything. Like I really felt we were obviously were there on a Monday afternoon. So it wasn't like primetime. [00:16:57.090] - Tamara Gruber But I was like, could there even have been 50 people in this entire building of like three or four floors? Like, it didn't it was not crowded at all. Some of the interactive types of things were closed. So I'm sure it would have been more fun if we could have done more of that, like listening kind of things. [00:17:13.140] - Tamara Gruber But we still like, you know, we really enjoyed it. We got a lot out of it. So I feel like maybe it's not too bad to do some of these indoor things or things that are usually crowded when there's not the crowds. So I can throw that out there as an idea. [00:17:26.520] - Kim Tate You know, I totally sorry. I was going to say I totally agree. I was just talking to Carolyn, our friend Carolyn, about that, because I went to the mop up museum in Seattle and it was the same thing. It was like a timed entry ticket that you bought online, got temperature checked. Everything's one way. [00:17:39.510] - Kim Tate And there is it felt like nobody felt like we had the exhibits to ourselves. And of course, like you said, we went in the weekday. But I definitely think you're right that that's the place to, like, really take advantage of your, like, staycation local cities. If there's some museums you avoid or I think now's the time to. [00:17:56.100] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, because and like I said, the the days I mean, for the most part, almost all of the hotels we were in, we it was not like they they are kind of concentrating people on certain floors, I think probably for housekeeping reasons. [00:18:08.010] - Tamara Gruber So it's not like we're the only one on the floor, but only in I think one place did we sometimes encounter people like on the elevator and we'd have to wait for the next elevator. But for the most part, there was like no one around and it was cheap, you know, so that all worked out well. [00:18:23.010] - Tamara Gruber So we moved from Cleveland and I actually really like that school, too. So so maybe we'll be back and explore more in Cleveland. We'll see. But from then, we drove like about two and a half hours to Ann Arbor, Michigan. And I will say, like, I know Michigan is a huge school, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, and they have the largest stadium football stadium in the Western Hemisphere, the big house. [00:18:43.680] - Tamara Gruber And so I thought the school is going to feel immense and like really just spread out and like not manageable and confusing. And it really didn't like first of all, Ann Arbor is the cutest town. You know, like there's great, like restaurants and like just little districts. And, you know, walking around was great. And the campus felt like there's like a north campus that you definitely have to drive to. But then the rest of it felt like pretty compact. And there's just so much school spirit there. [00:19:10.110] - Tamara Gruber Like everyone that you walk by is wearing like Michigan or something, you know, like sweatpants, sweatshirt, you know, like it just you could tell, like, they're super into it. So and we had a couple we brought in. [00:19:21.630] - Tamara Gruber Well, one time we eat outside at a deli. Zingerman's Deli is like really famous there. So we had to check that out. And then we brought in from like an Asian place called Slurping Turtle, which was delicious. [00:19:33.300] - Tamara Gruber We stayed at the graduate there, which again, I love graduate hotels for college towns because they have so much personality. And there it was, you know, not crowded at all. And it was adjacent to campus, like adjacent to State Street, like everything was convenient. So if you go in to Ann Arbor, like, I would definitely look at a stay there. It was you know, it was a really nice property. [00:19:55.680] - Tamara Gruber We I had booked a suite, so it wasn't quite as big of a separate little room as I thought, but it had like this little living room area, you know, I usually like the suite would be like the main room is like you walk into, like the living area and then the bedroom would be off here. You walked into the bedroom and then off the bedroom there was a. A little like I would call it a den, you know, like it had a little tiny couch and a little like a TV and a chair. [00:20:20.810] - Tamara Gruber So we put Hannah in there and like you, you could extend the bed, but you couldn't then walk around it, like, crawl across. [00:20:28.400] - Tamara Gruber So it's very small, but it was perfect because, you know, she had at least her own little space. And then the next morning before we left, we had this amazing brunch. [00:20:37.920] - Tamara Gruber I have to, like, look up where it was. But we had this, you know, amazing brunch of this beautiful place. We actually had to knock on the door, like to have them open for us. [00:20:46.790] - Tamara Gruber So we were the only people in there for a while. And I think that was one of the like, you know, eating inside still makes us nervous. So we're like, OK, it's like a two story place. We're the only people in here, so we're good. So if you go to Ann Arbor, the place is called Savas. And it was it was delicious. I'm sure it would be amazing for lunch or dinner, too. [00:21:03.350] - Tamara Gruber But from there, we moved to Madison, Wisconsin, and I've been to Madison before, as you know, and I really liked it a lot when we got there. [00:21:11.780] - Tamara Gruber It was pretty like rainy, but like an icy cold, you know, windy kind of rain. So it wasn't like ideal conditions for exploring. But luckily, like a friend of ours, their daughter goes to University of Wisconsin, Madison. So she was able to walk us around, I think, which definitely made an impression on Hannah because the other places we were just exploring on our own because tours weren't open right at the time. So, you know, so that was good. [00:21:36.320] - Tamara Gruber And we that day was actually St. Patrick's Day. So I was like, I am not going out on St. Patrick's Day in a college town. Like, there's no way. Not a pandemic, no way. So we brought in some food there. And we also stated a graduate there and actually the graduate there, we stayed at we again booked a suite. It was called like the Camp Wanda Wenga Suite or something. But it's set up like very camp style. [00:21:58.190] - Tamara Gruber And the separate little room had bunk beds and it had like an Atari and like, you know, a little gaming system and stuff. So it was really cute. And I was like, oh, my. Like, top bunk is going to be for this and I'm going to be in the bottom bunk. And I know she she had fun that she had bunk beds. That's cute. So that was good. [00:22:13.250] - Tamara Gruber And then we drove. That's the day that we then drove and we stayed in Nebraska. So that was just like we had a driving day and then we had another driving day and we got to Boulder, Colorado, and we definitely loved our stay in Boulder. [00:22:25.250] - Tamara Gruber It's such a cute it's a cute city. Has is like this Pearl Street district where it's just like an open pedestrian mall with tons of like restaurants and shops and stuff off of it. [00:22:35.570] - Tamara Gruber And we stayed at an Embassy Suites. And I will say, like Glenn and I were, we used points for a lot of these. And so Glenn and I were kind of expecting, you know, a lot of embassy suites are kind of old, right? [00:22:46.910] - Kim Tate You know, like, yeah, they have this in the nineties. Like this big center foyer. Pyramid or whatever. [00:22:54.500] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was like a brand new Embassy Suites. It was the nicest Embassy Suites or looked brand new that I've ever seen. [00:23:02.240] - Kim Tate And we had a nice we had an Embassy Suites in Seattle. [00:23:07.220] - Tamara Gruber Really nice. Yeah. It's just. Yeah yeah I agree because you get that stuck in your head about certain brands. Right. You kind of have like what your expectations are. So I was like, well you know, we're using points like whatever, it's an embassy suites and I got there, I'm like, oh this is really nice. And again had a suite again. We were on the road a lot, very close together. So a few times I wanted to splurge and have a suite and have like a little more space, you know, to be in. [00:23:32.150] - Tamara Gruber But it overlooked the you could see the campus, which is kind of up on a hill, then behind it, the Flatiron Mountains. And it was stunning. It's like, you know, to to open up the window and see, that was amazing. [00:23:45.530] - Tamara Gruber And just the campus was beautiful. We love you know, she loved the campus. She loved Boulder. I just loved, you know, they had just gotten like two feet of snow a week before. So I thought it was going to be crazy. And, yeah, there was some snow on the ground, but it just doesn't stick. I think, like, you and I are both come from like wet climb, you know, colder like wet climates. [00:24:02.660] - Tamara Gruber And so we'll get ice, you know, it sticks around. But there I think because it's dry, like the snow just melts and evaporates right away. [00:24:10.970] - Tamara Gruber But yeah. So one day we drove down, we were going to go to Rocky Mountain National Park, but then I was reading about it and it looked like a lot of the trails, like I would need snow shoes. And then I'm like, well, you know, you can only drive so much of it because the main road is closed in the winter. You know, you can't go all the way across the park. [00:24:28.520] - Tamara Gruber And so I was just debating, do we bother to go up there? We're going to have we're going to do snowshoeing and stuff when we go on our next stop. So I didn't really want to rent equipment to do that. So instead, we it was a beautiful day. It was like seventy degrees, which is crazy. So we drove down to Colorado Springs and we went to the Garden of the Gods, which I think everyone has seen pictures of. [00:24:48.800] - Tamara Gruber And I just oh, it looks so beautiful. Like let's go down there. [00:24:51.830] - Tamara Gruber First of all, we got stuck in all this traffic, which was crazy. And then, you know, so that was stressful. And then we got there and it was insane. It was it was a Saturday afternoon. It was seventy degrees, but it was insanely crowded. So I had and I got there. I had to use the bathroom speaking bathrooms. So I did wait in line like outside, because everyone that came in to the visitors center had to like sign in and provide your. [00:25:14.170] - Tamara Gruber Contact information for contact tracing, which was a joke because it's interesting that they're still doing that. Yeah, like everyone else, like tons of people didn't even go inside. And so we're walking, you know, then into the park and like, no one had masks, hardly anybody had masks on. [00:25:30.550] - Tamara Gruber And these are like jammed walkways, like you cannot avoid being within six feet of people. And it says, like, you know, mask is required even outside for when you can't be. It wasn't like it required all the time, but it's like when you can't be with, you know, more than six feet away. But it's like you clearly no one can be. [00:25:50.440] - Tamara Gruber So we were wearing a mask and we're like trying to like, you know, get through it really quickly in a way. But it was it was definitely stressful. [00:25:57.370] - Tamara Gruber It was like it was really like all of us were feeling it were a super stressful, you know, like trying to, like, look away when somebody, like, walked by you and like, you know, like just I don't know, like just protect yourself. [00:26:07.860] - Tamara Gruber And I know what's outside. And you generally passing people like within seconds. And there's probably very little danger, but it's still kind of freaked us out, you know, like it's been a long time since we've been around a lot of people. [00:26:19.090] - Tamara Gruber And it was not really fun. And I wanted it to be fun and I felt bad. So that's just my feeling is that granted, if I was in that situation and I had been vaccinated already, I wouldn't feel quite as worried. But I do really worry about being in crowded places like this summer and like what that's going to be like in some of the parks. And I know some people will feel like very comfortable because they're vaccinated. But like, if things are still circulating a lot, you know, like we still have to take certain precautions. [00:26:47.890] - Tamara Gruber And, you know, I don't know. It does make me a little bit worried about being in, like I said, crowded places in the summer. [00:26:54.370] - Kim Tate But was it pretty, though? [00:26:56.110] - Tamara Gruber It was beautiful. It was. It was. But it probably was a little more crowded than I would have liked anyway. I just have to get used to that. [00:27:04.900] - Tamara Gruber So after Boulder, we ended up going to a ranch for a couple of days, which was like definitely the highlight of our trip. And, you know, you know that when we went to the ranch in Montana a few years ago, it was still like one of our top trips. We just kind of love that experience. But I wasn't quite sure what it was going to be like in the winter, spring, you know, kind of season, like what activities there would be and what it would be like. [00:27:30.400] - Tamara Gruber But it was exactly what we needed. You know, it was like time outside. We had, you know, time. It was just such a relaxed environment, I think. So we went to the Vista Verde Ranch, which is just a little bit north of Steamboat Springs, and it is a luxury ranch. So they definitely have more amenities and, you know, service than the ranch that we went to before. And I think both can be great. [00:27:56.950] - Tamara Gruber But I felt like for this, especially for this season, it was nice to have the kind of that extra level of of amenities and activities and things. But there max capacity is something like 50 people, you know. So I think it's like a dozen cabins. They have cabins that go from one bedroom up to four bedroom. And you have you know, you have your own space because you have a cabin. [00:28:17.500] - Tamara Gruber So it felt like a very covid friendly type of vacation. And I wasn't sure because everything that we did before was so like community oriented. [00:28:26.590] - Tamara Gruber And I think that that does it is sad that you don't have some of that now, because that is like one of the really cool things about a ranch environment. Right. But it's still like they did it in such a way. That was it was just really nice. So I just can't like I don't know, I was so happy. Like, I wish we could have stayed longer. It's definitely pricey, but it is, you know, just a very unique experience. [00:28:47.980] - Tamara Gruber I mean, we did activities they have like you can sign up for activities like the day before. They have a calendar out. There's morning activities and afternoon activities, and sometimes there's a night activity. And so we did snowshoeing one day, which was just fabulous. And the way that they do it, you know, they have all the equipment on site, they have guides. And what they're doing now is like if you're with a family or small group, they're sending you out with like a private guide. [00:29:17.470] - Tamara Gruber So you're not even in a group of people, you know, it's just you and your family, which is kind of nice because I think I've told a story about like one other time when I went snowshoeing and I showed up and like all my ski gear, like thinking I was going to be freezing and I showed up and there were this there was like the guide in this other couple and they were in, I don't know, like a sweatshirt and like winter pants kind of thing. [00:29:40.480] - Tamara Gruber And they were like, I hope we're going to really get our hearts going now. And I'm like, oh, crap. I did it myself into and the whole time I'm like huffing and puffing because there it was like climbing in, like trying to keep up with them and sweating and ripping off layers of clothes. And then I would catch up to them and then they'd be like and then they would keep going, you know what I'm like. I didn't get a chance to have a rest. And so I feel like to go by yourself. And the other time I did it was in Idaho and it was just me and a guide. But she was like twenty three. She was out there on the mountain every day, you know, and I was like my foot hurt from. For the last few days and, you know, it's just like you're at altitude and you're climbing up and I remember being like, I'm going to stop and take a picture. [00:30:21.760] - Tamara Gruber I'm going to stop stopping and taking pictures because I needed a little break. But this one was like, you know, he kept stopping and he was just like, how are you guys doing? We're like, no, we're good. Like, let's keep going and let's let's climb up there. And, you know, we climbed up to this point. We had a beautiful view and know. So they really can match your peace. And like he says, like, you know, with a family, like your patient, with each other, you know, it's not like a group that, you know, someone's left behind or annoyed or, you know, all that. [00:30:48.020] - Tamara Gruber So so that was, you know, really worked out well. And then I think that afternoon, Hannah and I did a trail ride. I forget what Glenn did. Maybe he just decided to skip it. But we did a trail ride. And so, you know, typical, like, you know, line up my horse. [00:31:06.100] - Tamara Gruber My horse was a little nasty, though. Apparently, it was like the I don't know, what's the queen bee of horses, you know, like it has like seniority. So I kept trying to bite all the other horses. I would like to try to walk by. And so, yeah, like then the other horses were like, given it the side. I'm like, hold onto it like really tight. So stop trying to like bite the other horse. I have a little like a little bully over here. [00:31:43.810] - Tamara Gruber I was talking to one of the ranch hands afterwards about it and she was like, oh yeah, he's got a little attitude, you know, but they're so used to some of it that I don't know, like I just I felt like like it was a personal reflection on me. [00:31:55.360] - Tamara Gruber One of my horses tried to, you know, be nasty to another was like I wasn't controlling it well. But he was just like an hour, you know, ride like through a trail. But it's, you know, everything was still snow covered. So it was really it was just pretty. And I can't even tell you how much we enjoyed the weather because it was like sunny skies, blue skies, which I'm leaving looking at my window now in April. [00:32:17.440] - Tamara Gruber And I'm just seeing gray, you know, and it's just it makes me feel like so much more alive when the sun is out. [00:32:24.310] - Tamara Gruber And even though it was like twenty, thirty degrees when we were doing these things, like we went snowshoeing and I just had a base layer. And like a zip up fleece and that's it. And like my snow pants and I was totally fine and like that's kind of it felt like thirty degrees warmer than it actually the temperature was. [00:32:46.150] - Tamara Gruber So we had a good time with that. And then afterwards they let you go into the paddock for this thing they call a spring shed. And so basically the horses are shedding their winter coat and so you can go and help like brush them and you can just like, you know, go up to any horse. [00:33:01.840] - Tamara Gruber And so I was like, do we need to be careful around there? Like, no, just kind of like them. No, like, talk to them, let them know that you're coming. [00:33:08.380] - Tamara Gruber And so we're brushing them and of course, like it was starting to be mud season. So it's like a little icky out there, like with the poop. [00:33:16.900] - Tamara Gruber And and so I'm like, OK, I really wish I brought my rain boots that I could just, like, spray off. Yeah. So my tip would be to bring like a plastic bag or anything that is coming back from there. But it was, you know, it was just fun. Like Hannah loves horses. [00:33:32.650] - Tamara Gruber So it was like, you know, fun for her to just be able to to do that for a while and then, oh, the food was crazy good, like so, so good and so much food like the first night we got there and it was barbecue night. [00:33:47.590] - Tamara Gruber So you think it's going to be, I don't know, like family style. First of all, it's all like table service. And what they've done is they did used to have like community tables, but now because of covid, you can choose to have your own table. And so they've spread things out. So they have like them spread out in the dining room. [00:34:04.030] - Tamara Gruber And ours was actually in the main lobby, which is like towering ceilings, like beautiful lodge. And we were by a window. So we had this amazing view. There was no table anywhere near us. So it was like so comfortable, you know, for like indoor dining. And they would know. So you had a printed menu every time, like beautiful place sitting. Everything was like a starter, an entree and a dessert. And the first night it was like brisket, ribs or Alaskan king crab legs. [00:34:33.400] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, I didn't even get Alaskan king crab legs when I went on an Alaskan cruise and I went to the seafood restaurant, you know, like so Glen was like, well, I can't decide, like, can I get everything? And the girl was like, sure. And he was like, what? Like, you don't expect people to do that, you know? And she's like, yeah, like if you want like whatever you want, like I can bring you a little bit of this, little bit of that. And in the next morning scene with like breakfast, I was like, OK, well can I have like a pancake and an egg and some bacon. She's like, sure. So they it was so much food and it was really. Yeah, it was delicious, you know. And the next night was a formal night. So the kids have an option of doing like grab and go. Dining where it's more like a kid's meal, you know, that they can just take and they can eat it in the cabin and or go do a kid activity, but it's a little bit more of a formal meal. But it wasn't like you had to get dressed up. But these chefs came out and like presented and then they had like a wine pairing to go with it. So that one was I think we had like a salmon over like a lemon truffle, cauliflower risotto and Brussels sprout leaves. And, you know, it was like really it was it was fine dining. [00:35:43.710] - Tamara Gruber And every meal was great, like, you know, you had lunch. And I was like, OK, let's start with like a giant salad and then a burger and then dessert. And I'm like, I can't do this. Like, I can't keep eating. [00:35:54.360] - Tamara Gruber It's like it's so much food. But it was all so good. So definitely like a food is food is like a major highlight there. [00:36:06.780] So you go at happy hour at like five thirty and they have a selection of wines and beer. I don't even know if they had cocktails. I think it's wine and beer and then like a little like aperitif, you know, you had at one night was like a prosciutto wrapped date. [00:36:21.760] - Tamara Gruber And one night was like a deviled eggs, you know. So you had these little like snacks with your drinks. And that's the time where people can socialize if, you know, if they want to. So like there was oh, we just sat at our table because we were already in, like, that large area with our reserved table. So we would just sit there. But then there was this one group, like a big family group that would gather by the fireplace. [00:36:40.890] - Tamara Gruber And sometimes they were a little forgetful when it came to like putting on their mask, when they stood up to walk to back to the bar or whatever. But luckily, like, we're like, OK, we're over here. You stay over there. Yeah, but it felt weird to, like, not be super friendly, you know, like it's the kind of thing where usually you'd have more interaction with people. But then what do we do? The next day we went and we did cross country skiing because Glenn really wanted to try that. And all I can say. Have you done cross-country before? [00:37:07.860] - Kim Tate I have once. Paul is really into cross-country skiing and something they did in Edmonton a lot. [00:37:12.180] - Tamara Gruber But yeah, I could see that because he's like the triathlon kind of guy. Yeah, yeah. It's not my thing. That's all I'll really say we were doing. [00:37:20.820] - Tamara Gruber It was funny because we were gearing up and they said, like, it's not really great conditions for it because it's a little too icy, because that day it was like a little bit snowy, a little bit, it was still pretty cold in the morning there. It's like it's better in the afternoon. But we wanted to do something else in the afternoon and we're only there for a couple of days. So we didn't have like a ton of choice. [00:37:39.330] - Tamara Gruber And so we're like, you know what, it's included. This is our chance to try it. Let's just go and do it. And they kept saying, like, oh, like when you fall, this is what you do. [00:37:47.460] - Tamara Gruber And I'm like, fall. Like, isn't this just like walking? Like, when are we going to fall on cross country? And they do have like groomed trails, but they took us into like backcountry. And so then we were going like up a hill and then we had to go downhill. And I, I had no idea how different the skis are, you know. So, like, there's just I'm used to being able to, like, dig in or like control. [00:38:09.750] - Kim Tate And it's just, you know, was your heel is free. [00:38:12.430] - Tamara Gruber So, yeah, I'm like walking and the edges, there's just not like the edges that you have in downhill. [00:38:16.710] - Kim Tate No, not at all. Yeah. So you stay, the whole idea is like, I mean I guess some people like plow but when I that time I went cross-country skiing. You're kind of in a rut of already done. [00:38:28.530] - Tamara Gruber So you kind of I think it would have been cool if we did like the groomed trail but. But they're groomed trail was more like almost like a track, like an overall kind of thing. And then they it's more used to get people comfortable with it and then they go out to backcountry. Yeah. So like that part, I mean we made it fine. It was fine. Hannah actually really liked it and she liked like going ahead and laughing at us a bit. [00:38:51.120] - Tamara Gruber But I just, I definitely love snowshoeing. So I'm like I don't think I would choose like cross country over snowshoeing. You know, I just I, you know, me and my control, like, I like to be in control and like, it's so easy to be in control. [00:39:06.720] - Kim Tate Snowshoeing is better for that with than cross country. Yeah. I took out, yeah. I took out my father in law because I didn't know anything about it or how to stop and he had stopped to like look at something.I just kept going. I don't know what to do. So it's kind of funny. I mean it we were fine but yeah. [00:39:25.260] - Tamara Gruber Yeah that was cool to get to try that, you know, and then the next thing we did didn't end up quite as well, but we went snow tubing and again, it's like a little bit icy. And so they have, you know, there this is just all on their property. [00:39:40.710] - Tamara Gruber So they have a hill where they have kind of, you know, trails. But it's not like this. Quite the same grooming that you would have, you know, if you went to a ski resort type of of snow tubing. But they pull you up in a snowmobile, so they take you up there up to the hill on the snowmobile, you tube down, then they snowmobile you back up, you know, so that's kind of cool. And it was a lot of fun. [00:40:00.450] - Tamara Gruber Like, we were definitely having a ton of fun, like Glenn and Hannah were going down, like in Hannah. And I did it, too, like together together, you know, and like, go down. But when you went down, you were going really fast. [00:40:10.680] - Tamara Gruber They're like it's really slick, just so you know. So if you. Want to slow down like you use your foot to, like, kind of slow you down, like it's better if you went on your belly. We're usually like sit in the tube, you know, go on your belly and then you can, like, control it a little bit more. [00:40:23.870] - Tamara Gruber And then at the bottom, they had some, like, barriers. And it's like you don't really want to go past the barrier because you're not going to go off a cliff. But it's it's not going to be great if you keep going, you know. [00:40:32.150] - Tamara Gruber So I would always, you know, slow myself down, but it definitely was getting sicker and sicker. And then Glenn and Hannah, which we're almost it was almost going to be like the end anyway, like we're almost at the end of the day. But he went and then I saw, like, the two of them went like because there's two runs and I was waiting at the top. And then I went down. I kind of saw Glenn go like, oh, you know. [00:40:52.790] - Tamara Gruber And then I was like, oh, what happens? I get down to the bottom and he can't stand because he he was using his foot to slow down and he felt something. And then when he went to stand up afterwards, the snow is like really deep, but it was just a little bit crusty on top. So then you kind of fall through and you might you know, you might be like a couple feet deep and snow and you have to, like, lift your foot out. [00:41:13.970] - Tamara Gruber And so he kind of fell in to someone's like hole and then his foot, like he just felt something so like a few to three years, two years ago, he fractured his foot doing, you know, like he was doing a half marathon. [00:41:27.650] - Tamara Gruber He was running a lot and he had like a stress fracture. So he says that this is what it felt like. So that was not the ideal end to our little trip. Yeah, it's a bummer because it sounds like you guys were having such a good time. [00:41:40.610] - Kim Tate And then now it's a, you know, kind of like the end as calmly as you want it. [00:41:46.160] - Tamara Gruber And then, yeah, it was especially great that while at least I was like, OK, let's like put ice on it and wrap it and like, put it up and just like, relax for a while and like see how you feel. But then he called a friend and the friend was like, you really should get x rays before you go, like all the way home, because we're leaving the next morning to start at 10, 12 hour drive to Kansas. [00:42:07.160] - Tamara Gruber And so then I was like, I really think I have to go get x rays. And by this point it's like five o'clock. And I'm like, well, by the time I get you to Steamboat Springs, like we're missing dinner here. And then we're driving back here at night after dark, which not like great roads for driving after dark when you're not familiar with them. [00:42:26.510] - Tamara Gruber And then we're just getting up and leaving the next morning and we're we'll have to drive back, pass through Steamboat Springs, you know, like we were north and we needed to go south. So I was like, OK, I think what we should do is just pack up and check out early and I should take it as Steamboat Springs and then like, let's just stay down there and then start our drive from there in the morning. It just, you know, it just wasn't worth it to come back, like just for breakfast and so sad, like we only really had to two nights there, but it worked out like we drove down. [00:42:56.810] - Tamara Gruber I got us all packed up and checked out and we drove down to Steamboat Springs and dropped them off at the hospital for X-rays. I'm like, well, I can't come in anyway. So like, let me go take care of, like, getting gas in the car and finding where we can get some food to pick up and, you know, researching where to stay. And so, like, we could have stayed in Steamboat Springs, but we were kind of like, you know what, let's just drive down to 70, Interstate 70, so that in the morning, like, we definitely have less of a big drive tomorrow. [00:43:22.340] - Tamara Gruber And so we we thought it was all going to be good. And we he was finally done at like eight o'clock. So it's like, you know, maybe before eight o'clock is like just turning dark and we start driving and we have to go up like over a mountain pass. [00:43:36.950] - Tamara Gruber And I'm driving, of course, because he has like a boot and crutches and it starts snowing like swirling white out snow, like I can barely see. So I'm driving this mountain pass like I don't know how easy it is, you know what I mean? Like, is it is it really slick? Like, it was terrifying. I will tell you, like even like everyone in the car just like was quiet. So I could like, just very much focus on my drive. [00:44:04.100] - Tamara Gruber And I was like gripping that wheel and going like twenty five miles an hour and just trying to be so careful because, you know, like it's a mountain pass in Colorado, like. [00:44:14.180] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. And all I could think was if I pull over, are we going to end up one of those people that like died on the side of the road because they froze overnight. And, you know, like, what if it gets worse, you know, versus better? [00:44:25.220] - Tamara Gruber And so I just, like, pushed through. And when we finally started coming back down, at least it stopped snowing. But then I was like, still so tense, like the rest of the drive. It was like a two hour drive to get like south to Interstate 70 because, you know, it's just dark and small mountain road. And then we had to look out for deer. There's all these signs for Deer Crossing. And they even I saw a couple bridges. [00:44:48.500] - Tamara Gruber So I think it's where they've made those like wildlife. Yeah. Crossing thing. Crossing things. Yeah. Yeah. So and and the people at the hospital had warned Glen, like, if you're driving that way, like watch out for deer. So, you know, we finally made it to our hotel and it was good that we were plant we had booked ahead because when we got there the hotel parking lot was jammed. And so I dropped Glenn and he ran off up front, you know, because he has crutches and they went in to check in and like I. [00:45:12.700] - Tamara Gruber To go park so far away and as I got out of the car, I realized a lot of people were actually sleeping in the car and their cars were running. And I'm like, what's going on? And then I realized that, like, they had closed Interstate 70 because of snow. And people were just, like, waiting it out there, I think. [00:45:30.520] - Tamara Gruber So I'm like, oh, I'm really glad that I had booked the hotel room and I'm glad that we didn't plan to go any further. But I was so exhausted. We got there and I was like, I just need a minute. Like, I just I need to decompress. Like it was I was at the point that stressful. Yeah, I felt like breaking down in tears. I was just like, I need to like, let out all the stress, like I was so like I just really needed to breathe for a little bit. [00:46:01.570] - Tamara Gruber I really, really enjoyed the ranch part and then from there we just, you know, we headed home and we, we stayed. I will give a lot of credit to Marriott because we booked a lot of our hotels with points and we ended up on the way back, like having to adjust. [00:46:16.720] - Tamara Gruber Like, I just like to have our hotels booked on a road trip because I don't know, like I'm just worried. Like, what about the thing like with, you know, Interstate 70 and like the hotel gets sold out or, you know, something like that. So we're planning on stopping in. You will know. Is it Seleena or Salina? Salina, yeah. [00:46:34.180] - Tamara Gruber So we were planning on stopping there, but because we had started from, you know, like an earlier like because we had already gone south and we were starting it was going to be not as long a drive. We're like, let's just push on and go a little further. And so we decided to push on. I don't even remember where we stopped, but it was like closer to Kansas City. I think it was still in Kansas, like, I seriously can't even remember. But we called, you know, on at least it brought us like another hour or two, you know, like, yeah, further east. [00:47:03.310] - Tamara Gruber And so Glen called and he had you know, he's so big into his like, I got the email the day before, you know, because I'm like, whatever status does in already. So, yeah, we want to change it. But he's already checked in like . [00:47:15.700] - Tamara Gruber And so I was like, well you need to call because like if y'all like maybe they'll say something, you know, they'll let you. So they were like, OK, we're canceling it. But, you know, you booked this with a certificate, so you're going to have to call like Marriott to get it, like reinstated. So then luckily I'm driving because Glenns. But, you know, so he's calling. He gets them to, like, give him back his points and then immediately, like, we rebooked somewhere else, like with the points. [00:47:41.770] - Tamara Gruber So it was all like very seamless. Yeah, it was great. [00:47:44.680] - Tamara Gruber So we did that and then. Oh I think it was Topeka. Oh I think that's where we stopped.There was a very good coffee shop across the street. That's all I know. Which I don't, you know, I don't even drink coffee but it was really cool. [00:48:07.150] - Kim Tate I saw people become coffee drinkers just because like when the craze of the coffee shop aspect and then, like, working at home, I think people it's kind of funny to think that way, but I'm convinced. [00:48:18.700] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it was. And then. Yeah. So the next day we just had to drive to St. Louis and so we got there and you know, you and I had talked about on a previous episode like that, we were going to go to the arch and so I had bought tickets in advance. And it's another thing, just like the Rock Hall of Fame, where it was such a better experience because there were hardly any people, you know. [00:48:38.800] - Tamara Gruber So I bought the tickets in advance, which is good. When we showed up, there was a big sign that was like we're sold out for the day, but we had something at the end of the day anyway. So we got there. We didn't have time to do the museum downstairs first because we were a little like five minutes late for our tram, you know, up to the top. You did that, which definitely it is. [00:48:58.540] - Tamara Gruber If you've not done it is not good for claustrophobic people. So it's like these little pods. I don't know if you remember from when you went, but it's like this little round pod that, like, you get in. But they've done it. [00:49:09.310] - Tamara Gruber It's kind of like a Disney ride now. So like you get a boarding pass and you stand on like Circle five and then you're going to be in pod five. And somehow in normal times, they could fit like five or six people in these pods. And I have no idea, like a gondola pod. [00:49:28.810] - Tamara Gruber But then you're going up. I mean, it's kind of fascinating technology because first we're like, how do they do this? Like how do you go up on an angle. [00:49:36.010] - Tamara Gruber So you have to like read about how they do it. But it's like because it's like a you know, like a round pod, they can like, rotate it like you don't feel it. But anyway, it's it's interesting, but it does have like a glass door. So then you can like, look down. So that's also not so great for some people. Even Hannah was like, I don't really like this, but it's like I think three minutes up or like maybe four minutes up, three minutes down or something like that. [00:49:59.710] - Tamara Gruber But then when you get to the top, you have an assigned viewing window. So like we were window five and one on both sides. [00:50:07.150] - Tamara Gruber So no one, you know, like you're not fighting with anyone for like a photo. No one's leaning into your. Like, you have your own little window again, and I didn't love it because you had to, she's getting like a little bit nervous with some heights you had to, like, lean just like you said, like you have to lean to look out the window. [00:50:24.540] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, but and also it had been raining and so it was pretty foggy, but it was still is a pretty view. I'm glad we did it. We went downstairs. There was a really cool museum, which, you know, a lot of things. [00:50:35.130] - Tamara Gruber She's like, oh, that's in our AP history class. And, you know, like all the, you know, things that she had learned recently. So it's a nice museum. Then they were closing. So we left and we had to leave the building. But it's pouring torrential rain when we walk out and we have to walk like ten minutes back to the hotel. And so we were like, well, like we just have to walk. Like, I hadn't brought an umbrella and I had a coat that's at least like water-Resistant, but hers was not really. And luckily it wasn't freezing, freezing cold, but it was so torrential, like we were laughing, like we were just so completely soaked, like to our skin that we were just laughing. And we got there.We walked in and Glen was like, oh, my God. Like, look at you guys. And like, the front of our pants were like a completely different color than, like the back of our pants. [00:51:28.710] - Tamara Gruber Are you sure that I could feel the water like running down my leg inside my pants, like into my shoe. It was so bad but it was like funny. So we immediately were like, OK, we're like stripping out of this. I think we yeah. [00:51:41.160] - Tamara Gruber We did like a room service, like drop off thing for dinner and we got into like the robes and stuff. Oh. And this was the place it's called Hotel St. Louis. It's an autograph collection of Marriott. And it is it was great. Like it was a beautiful, historic kind of property. And are we again got a suite like Glen did the upgrade thing with his points. And it was a huge, beautiful suite. And it had this big bathroom with like this nice shower stall and a tub. But it had something I've never seen before. And it had a heated toilet seat with like a built in bidet. But like when I pulled off those wet pants and I sat on that toilet seat and it kind of like, OK, I

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186 Best Florida Hotels Resorts

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 30, 2021 45:50

Dreaming of sunny skies and palm trees? Us too. Before you plan your next vacation to the Sunshine State, be sure to listen to this week's episode with Joella Doobrow from RovingJo. We break down the best Florida hotels and resorts up and down both coasts (and a few in the middle) for families, girls' trips, and romantic getaways. About Joella Doobrow Joella was born in Venezuela and currently lives in Florida. She moved to the USA alone when she was 18 and is now married with two teenage girls. Together they enjoy outdoor adventures mixed in with a few great city escapes. Travel has been a part of her life since she was a few months old and it has undoubtedly shaped it. Joella now shares her travel experiences through RovingJo.com to help inspire others to find their own adventures and create memories that will shape their lives in a positive way. She believes that no matter how busy life gets, there is always time to travel and discover something new. Even if that something new is just a few miles away from home. You can follow Joella on Instagram. Best Florida Hotels and Resorts If you are looking for a bucket list resort in Florida and budget isn't an issue, look at Little Palm Island in the Florida Keys. Hawk's Cay in the Florida Keys is an excellent choice for families, with villas with kitchens, lots of activities, and even dolphin encounters. While in the Keys you could potentially take a day trip to Dry Tortugas National Park. Margaritaville in Hollywood, Florida is also great for families. They have a Florider surfing simulator, a rooftop pool, and a Parakeets kids club. Just outside the hotel you can walk or bike along the boardwalk or go to the beach. The Margaritaville Orlando is also a great pick for families. In Palm Beach, The Breakers is old world luxury but has a kids and teens club and activities. They also offer activities like golf, kayaking, snorkeling, and complimentary bicycles. The Ritz Carlton in Key Biscayne and Amelia Island both offer great properties and kids programs. On the Gulf Coast of Florida, the beaches are softer with white, sugary sand and the water is calmer with a beautiful blue-green color. Marco Island and Naples are favorite family travel destinations on the Gulf Coast. The JW Marriott in Marco Island is perfect for families. They have a beautiful beach, golf nearby, multiple restaurants, kids clubs, and even an arcade/brewery. You can also take Dolphin watching tours and other watersports, or tours out to the Ten Thousand Islands. Twin Rivers Island Resort in Captiva allows locals and visitors to pay a day rate to use the resort. Captiva is a great spot for shelling and watching manatees. In Naples, the Naples Grande or Ritz Carlton are good options for families. The Inn on Fifth in Naples is great for a girlfriend getaway or romantic getaway as it is right in the heart of town. Tradewinds in the St. Pete/ Clearwater area is great for families. They have a large ocean waterpark, five pools, plenty of restaurants and bars, as well as a kids club. It isn't luxury but is great for pure family fun. We also like the Wyndham or Hyatt in Clearwater. Anna Maria Island is a great destination to rent a vacation home, but you could also try the boutique Rod and Reel Resort. They offers suites for families and they offer paddleboards, bikes, and other amenities. In the Panhandle, Port St. Joe, Rosemary Beach, and Seaside are all great communities, but they are better for vacation rental homes. Watercolor is one beautiful resort in that area. For Disney hotels, Animal Kingdom Lodge is a favorite for families because of the pools, playground, food, and, of course, the animals. The new Riviera is also very nice and it is on the Skyliner for easy transportation to the parks. The Swan or The Dolphin are also convenient if you are going to one of the festivals at Epcot, plus you can sometimes use Marriott points. If you want to stay outside of Disney, the Four Seasons Orlando can't be beat. For a girl's trip, head to Palm Beach and stay at either the Eau Palm Beach or The Colony. If you like a spa setting and want to be closer to the Miami action, the Acqualina Resort and Spa is perfect for a girls trip. For a romantic getaway, try the Bungalows Key Largo. It is an adults-only all-inclusive property. Cheeca Lodge is another option but they are remodeling right now. Amelia Island is another great spot for a romantic getaway, but you may want to rent a condo or stay at a bed and breakfast. When looking for deals, you can find good options in the summer when it is hot or during hurricane season in the fall. Read the Full Show Transcript [00:00:00.090] - Kim Tate Craving some sunshine and palm trees today, we're talking about Florida hotels. [00:00:17.120] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:32.120] - Kim Tate So, Tamara, before we get chatting with our guest all about Florida hotels, I thought since we've been talking a lot about vacation planning and we talked recently about finding hotel deals, I thought maybe you and I could chime in a little bit on some of the tricks or things that we do when we're booking hotels, because you and I both just booked a whole bunch of hotels for our road trips. So did you want to start us off and share maybe a tip that you utilized or thought about with your booking? [00:00:59.480] - Tamara Gruber Sure, yeah. I think both of us with our road trips recently, we had to choose some destinations based on where we're going. But then some of our in-between destinations were maybe based on where we might have a hotel that we had a connection with, whether it's a loyalty program or, something through the credit card. So I feel like understanding where you are from a point perspective or if there are any certain deals like with your credit card or any certain like rewards points. [00:01:31.550] - Tamara Gruber You know, one of those like get the extra night free or, you know, double points or something like that. A lot of times I tend to ignore those. It's not very good as a a travel blogger, but sometimes I ignore them because I'm very focused on the destination. I like what I want to experience and not necessarily like chasing a particular hotel but I did for this trip try to look at that a little bit more. Some of it was like we also wanted to be like right in the heart of the town where campus was. [00:02:01.820] - Tamara Gruber So that's why in a couple of places I chose a Graduate hotel, because I'm like, OK, I know that this is going to give me like a very close to campus experience, but also a very local, authentic kind of experience because the Graduate hotels are awesome, bringing in local artists and local like culture and themes and things that you almost question. I know when we were in Madison, Wisconsin, and they have like Pink Flamingos and like, what's the deal with Pink Flamingos in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, and you you learn about it. And so I like that element. So we did that. But then we were more in between, you know, we're traveling, we just need a place to stop. I'm like, OK, let's look at you know, we're pretty loyal Marriott members like, what are the Marriott properties? [00:02:42.020] - Tamara Gruber You know, which ones are rated, you know, this where how far off the highway are they? But there are a couple of things that we saw because we were trying to book with points and we were also, you know, with the three of us being on the road, being in the car together so much, it's like, you know, a lot of togetherness. They thought we might want to spread out like a little bit when we get to the hotel and just, like, chill out and maybe have more than just like your typical to queen kind of room. [00:03:06.320] - Tamara Gruber So I was looking at different properties that have an extended room or have a one bedroom suite. So I'd find these Courtyard Marriotts that have a one bedroom king suite. So it's a king bed and then a separate room with a pullout couch. That gives us like lots of space. So I went and created a document with all the links to it and sent it to Glenn because he's the one with all the points and I'm like, can you book these? And he comes back to me and he's like, none of these are showing up. [00:03:36.710] - Tamara Gruber So what I learned is that a lot of times those premium rooms are not available for points, so then you have to make a choice do you really want that space? And the other thing is he is a titanium member so we could get there and get the upgrade potentially. So sometimes I'm like let's book the regular and see if we can get an upgrade. And other times, I'm like, we're going to be very tired. We're there for two nights, let's pay and make sure we get what we want. [00:04:09.380] - Tamara Gruber But when we were paying for it, I saw American Express Platinum card had a certain offer for Marriott where if you spent two hundred, you got a certain amount back. So then I was like, OK, well, let's use this deal. I made sure, like on my itinerary to write like use use Amex card. [00:04:31.040] - Tamara Gruber It wasn't just like an automatic thing. So sometimes like when you get those emails from your credit card, it does make sense if you have a trip coming up to really read through them and understand, because even though sometimes even deals like, I don't know, for restaurant chains or something like that. So I'm like, OK, let's like make a note of that so that I remember to use this credit card. [00:04:54.930] - Tamara Gruber So those are some of the things that we are doing. We also always get into the discussion of is it worth it to pay or not? You know, because as I mentioned, like on one of our episodes, you know, some of the inner city hotels are a little bit cheaper right now versus, you know, more of a leisure property. So we found a lot of good deals. And it's like, well, if it's only like one hundred and twenty five dollars, should we just pay for it, but then we decided towards the end of our trip, we wanted to, like, treat ourselves a little bit. So we decided to use the points. [00:05:24.970] - Tamara Gruber And actually, instead of staying at, like the Courtyard, we're staying at like an Autograph collection hotel, you know, something that's in the city has a little character, sometimes they're historic properties but it just has a little bit more character. [00:05:38.980] - Tamara Gruber I mean, I love a Courtyard and a Hilton garden inn because, like, I know exactly what to expect when we are stopping in Nebraska. I'm like, we're stopping in a Courtyard. I know that they have a washing machine. I know I can do my laundry. Like there's there's a comfort to that. They don't charge for parking. The Courtyards don't do breakfast, but if you stay at a Residence Inn and they do, you know, so you can always kind of figure out like what is going to be your state of mind? [00:06:05.530] - Tamara Gruber Are you in the middle of nowhere? And you really just want, like, a quick breakfast before you hit the road? Or are you staying in a city where you might want to go out to brunch or pick or see like a local place, you know, and therefore you don't need breakfast at the hotel. [00:06:16.780] - Tamara Gruber So I don't know. Those are some of the things that we think about and we thought about and planning our recent road trip. But I know you were a little bit more strategic in the way that you were using, like your points and your certificates and things. So why don't you talk a little bit about kind of what the process you went through? [00:06:32.380] - Kim Tate Well, I think you brought up something really good. I need to go check my Chase offers, because if you guys log into a credit card that you use, the offers will be like on your dashboard. And, you know, like Tamara said, she scored that Marriott one. And so it's always a good idea before you start doing a big trip like this to look and see what, you know, little bonuses you might have. And so I need to go check my Chase ones and see if I had anything from there. [00:06:59.170] - Kim Tate And then I also think that it's good to mention the breakfast thing, because that was something that really has me at a quandary right now, because I'm curious which hotels actually will have breakfast still and what that will look like because. [00:07:13.180] - Kim Tate So I'm not a yogurt eater. So I'm really worried that I'm going to be getting bags of like an orange or an apple and a yogurt every morning on right now when I have the free breakfast ones, because on the West Coast, you know, everything's still pretty, pretty locked down a little bit. So we'll see what happens. I have no idea what to think about the breakfast, but on a road trip, that's definitely something I look for is the free breakfast. [00:07:34.900] - Kim Tate Because for us, you would get this, but I have some late sleepers and it's hard to get up and get going in the morning. And if I have to make a stop for breakfast, then we are totally already going to be hours longer for us. So that's something that I keep in mind for sure. But I think one of the things that I do when I'm doing a big trip is I, I definitely plan. [00:07:57.880] - Kim Tate Like I said already last week that I look at how far I need to drive each week and or each day. And so I look at like, what are the main cities in those destinations? And I think what Tamara already touched on that a lot of us know is if you're doing a road trip, you're going to be doing a lot of these smaller towns. And so you're going to be drawn to a lot of those chains like Holiday Inn Express. [00:08:17.140] - Kim Tate You know, I for like Tamara said, Courtyard's I had a lot of Fairfield inns on mine. So you're going to be kind of looking at that. And I think the important thing is just to log in and check out what those hotels have going for promotions. For example, I saw that Holiday Inn Express, which is IHG, had a stay two nights, get double points promotion and you have to register in advance for it. So I registered in advance for that. [00:08:41.590] - Kim Tate And two of our nights on our road trip, are Holiday Inn Express's. So that'll work out and give us a little bonus on points. It's not that much of a money savings, but it's always nice to give. It's kind of like getting the free money that's sitting there. It's not a big deal if you don't get it, but it is a nice little perk. So that's something I think is important. You know, recently I was booking a Marriott property and I actually found that they were doing a certain promotion and I canceled my previous booking and rebooked it. [00:09:09.580] - Kim Tate And that's the other thing. Talking about cancellation of a lot of hotels offer you a much cheaper rate if you're willing to pay in advance. So you commit and say, I'm ready to do this, but for my planning and just with where the world is right now, I went ahead and paid the extra to get the free cancelation. Or you can cancel at least anywhere from one to three days normally before your trip. However, a little tip I'll mention is that there's nothing that says you can't log back in, recheck those rooms and cancel rebook at the lower the prepaid rate and then cancel the advance purchase rate. [00:09:44.380] - Kim Tate But that takes a lot of thinking in advance. But just a little heads up, you can set a little timer once you know that you're going and there's not any real risk if you have like a day before cancelation, there's nothing that stops you two days before from rebooking at the prepaid rate. [00:10:00.100] - Kim Tate So that's just some of the little hacks and stuff I have. I'm a triple-A, member. I actually need to reminds me I need to add, Lizzie, because I just always felt more. I don't think I've used it once, but I like having it and it just makes me feel comfortable. [00:10:19.980] - Tamara Gruber I used to work at AAA so I'm a AAA fan. [00:10:19.980] - Kim Tate I remember you telling me about making all those triptiks. So I think AAA is another thing to have in mind, that for a road trip it it serves two purposes is it can, you know, offer you the peace of mind if you do lock your keys or need a tow or have car trouble or need a change of tire or whatever your case may be, you have them on, you know, at the ready. And then also because a lot of hotels offer triple-A discounts. And that's a great little way to save, you know, save some money. I saved about I, I think I save, you know, around 10 to 20 percent on a room with it. [00:10:56.880] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's funny you mention that because, like, I do that and I don't even think about I don't even think about mentioning it. But yeah, I mean, so many of them, when you're going and you're looking at the price they have like little checkboxes, like if you want to see the AAA. Specifically like ask to see the rate. [00:11:12.450] - Kim Tate And then I know with Marriott you actually have to input your triple-A number when you're making the booking. So it can be a great, I mean based on this trip alone, it paid for itself. [00:11:27.930] - Tamara Gruber By the way, with us I actually went and I upgraded our membership to plus before because our like my car is getting like a little bit older. And so the roadside assistance isn't the built in like that when you buy it. Sometimes it includes assistance for a certain amount of time. So I don't have that anymore. And your typical triple-A is only like a three or five mile tow. And I'm like, we're going to be in the middle of nowhere. And so I want to make sure that I can. So actually, it's funny that you mention that because I didn't even think of it, but we actually upgraded our membership just so we can do that road trip. [00:12:02.340] - Kim Tate And the cool thing about triple A also for you parents who have teen drivers is it works for any car the person is in. So it's a membership for the person. So if your teen is with friends and there's something happens, they can always call AAA and get help even if their friend doesn't have AAA. Same with you. If you're renting a car or, you know, whatever the case may be, your AAA covers you. So it's really getting membership is free. [00:12:34.320] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I recently just got a thing asking me like free two months of the plus or whatever if I signed up for that. So I need to log in and do that because I thought of doing that just for a road trip. [00:12:46.230] - Kim Tate So anyways, that's some of the little tips I have. But yeah, I think hopefully we haven't overwhelmed people, but that's the way our brains work, right. We're always I mean, I'm just always looking for deals because if I can save a little money here and there, it means you can splurge and do a little more in other places. But I think the chains are the big thing to recognize on a road trip. [00:13:04.560] - Kim Tate You're going to be doing a lot of chains. And if you can have loyalty or look for those bonuses, it might pay off a little bit. I know a lot of hotels used to do, you know, stay two nights, get one night free you type certificates. And with my Marriott credit card, I get a free certificate every year. But figuring out how to use those is the tricky thing. And then also considering parking costs, like Tamara said, I considered an Autograph hotel as well. [00:13:28.560] - Kim Tate And one of our stops that was in a bigger city that had that. However, they charged a 35 dollar parking fee. And I thought that doesn't make any sense for us. We'll just stay at the Fairfield Inn and get our nice supposedly free breakfast. The differences between, you know, like just staying on the outskirts at a more of a chain property versus, you know, being in the city at a flagship property, you know, the extra expense can be insane between parking. [00:13:53.550] - Tamara Gruber Then you charge for breakfast and you think about like some of those chains, like I just love, like Residence Inn or, you know, one of the like Springhill Suites is that have also they have like the little happy hour. [00:14:05.820] - Tamara Gruber And then they have sometimes I know Residence Inn like sometimes on like a Tuesday night they have like the manager's reception or something and they'll like grill hot dogs, you know, like something like that. But there's, there's a lot of like little perks to some of the places that maybe don't have you know, they're not the downtown location. [00:14:22.440] - Tamara Gruber They're not the more stylish, perhaps. But I also I like the consistency of a lot of those brands, though, in terms of knowing what you're getting. [00:14:30.990] - Kim Tate Well, and I like the fact that if I'm on a long road trip, it's, a money saving because they're normally pretty affordable. And I just need a place to sleep for the night that I know it's going to be clean and I like the chains because I know that there's a cleanliness standard for the brand. And so you feel a little more confident there, even though they can't be franchised. [00:14:50.850] - Kim Tate So we are going to talk today all about Florida hotels, and I'm excited to hear about that because I'm definitely dreaming of sunshine and palm trees. [00:14:59.970] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, Florida is such a popular destination, so we wanted to cover kind of a variety, you know, from like what's good for family, what's good for girlfriend getaway, romantic, you know, different areas. So lots of, I think a little gems that we're going to talk about today. So I'm excited to talk to Joella. [00:15:24.700] - Tamara Gruber Today, we're here with Joella Doobrow, and she was born in Venezuela and now lives in Florida with her husband and two teen girls, travel has been a part of her life since she was very young. And today she shares her experience through her blog at Roving Jo to help inspire others to find their own adventures and create memories to shape their lives in a positive way. So welcome, Joella. [00:15:45.680] - Joella Doobrow Thanks. I'm really excited to be here with you guys. [00:15:48.350] - Tamara Gruber Now, I've been following you on Instagram for so long now, and I am always jealous of all of the day trips and, you know, weekends and overnights and things that you've been doing, especially as I'm kind of trapped in the cold up here. So I'm eager to get your opinion on some of the your favorite hotels and resorts in Florida. But before we get into some of the details, I'm going to ask you a really hard question. And that is, if you could stay at any resort in Florida with any budget, where would you go? [00:16:17.000] - Joella Doobrow Actually, I think it's this resort, it's called a little Palm Island resort. Tt's a very exclusive. It's on a private island and it's voted like the number seven resort in the USA by, you know, Conde Nast Traveler. And it's really the epitome of luxury and escape. I mean, you need to get there by boat or sea plane. And I just love the idea of no phones, no TVs, no guests under 18 and, you know, really good dining and just secluded and, you know, getting away from the world and having lots of luxury. [00:16:51.770] - Tamara Gruber It sounded perfect to me. Kim and I were actually just talking about this on our last episode briefly, because I was, kind of scrounging around for different ideas for the summer. And I came across it and I was so excited until I saw the price. So, yes, when I win the lottery, that's where I'm going to go to. [00:17:11.600] - Kim Tate So we are going to be talking all about Florida, which I'm sure most people understand is a, you know, fairly good sized state. So let's start on the East Coast. And, you know, there we're looking at Amelia Island, Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, the Keys, of course. So what are some of your favorite East Coast beaches and resorts for families that you recommend for, you know, a good, good getaway? [00:17:34.340] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, there's actually several. And like I said, I mean, the East Coast is fairly large. So, you know, starting all the way on the south towards the keys for the family, we really enjoyed Hawk's Cay. So it's not all the way down in Key West, but they have a lot of really, really fun amenities that are for families. They'll do dolphin encounters, you can do snorkeling, scuba packages, sunset cruises, paddleboards kayaks, fishing. They have tons of activities on site, game rooms, kids club, a wonderful playground. [00:18:10.370] - Joella Doobrow They have this little pirate ship type pool putting course. I mean, it's it's just there's everything there and it's getting into the keys. So there's tons of things to do outside the resort as well. It's really fabulous. [00:18:24.440] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I stayed there with my family once quite a few years ago, and I think I've told Kim before, I still have a scar on my knee from that pirate pool. [00:18:33.740] - Kim Tate I actually was talking to them recently and I think it kind of has that it sounded like a very all inclusive feel where or almost like, you know, like staying on on site with Disney in a way where you're kind of insulated. They're they've got everything for restaurants and all your activities. You don't have to think about anything beyond that if you don't want to. So it seems like it's really great. Set it and forget it. Vacation destination. [00:18:56.450] - Tamara Gruber It's a good one for now, too, because they have those villas that have kitchens and it's you know, you're you're really self-contained and self-catering if you want to be. [00:19:06.440] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, they do. They have the both the the hotel side and then the villas. So if you need more space or want to cook your own stuff and or even if I think they even have places where you can dock your boat, it's it's really nice. [00:19:18.500] - Kim Tate Cool, so moving north, what else have you got on the East Coast. [00:19:22.070] - Joella Doobrow So a little bit closer to where I live and we've done this as a day trip or staycation is Margaritaville in Hollywood. And it's really fun because they have you know, aside from the pool, they have the florider where you can kind of like, you know, surf. But yes, it's lots of fun both for kids and adults. And they do have, of course, the rooftop pool with cabanas. And they do have a parakeets kids club with, you know, games and crafts for kids and stuff like that. I think between ages four and twelve. [00:19:53.330] - Tamara Gruber I'm a big Jimmy Buffett fan. And was it two years ago? I stayed at the Margaritaville in Orlando when it first opened and I loved it. So I'm I imagine that they all have a similar vibe. But it just I felt very relaxed when I was there, which I usually wouldn't feel when I'm in Orlando. [00:20:09.140] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, I was really fun. And then right outside the hotel, there's a broad walk or boardwalk. I don't know how people pronounce it, but I mean, you can skate there, ride your bike some there's tons of restaurants out there and cool places where you can get like ice cream. And it has that old town, Florida, feel. And, you know, it's right on the beach, too. So it's great. [00:20:31.700] - Joella Doobrow A little further north, if you go to West Palm, there is the Breakers, which kind of has that old style to it. It's really great for adults and kids because they do have a lot of kids programs. There are even for teens, they have one for teens, thirteen and up, which is great. And they have activities like golf and kayaking and snorkeling and arcades and, you know, complimentary bicycles that you can take and and use for West Palm Beach, which is a great way to get around the area. [00:21:01.030] - Kim Tate Now are any of those, would you say, better for like a beach, like white sand beach vacation type thing, because I know as you move to the keys, sometimes it's not always, you know, sandy beaches and sometimes with currents or tides or, you know, seaweed, stuff like that. So do you have any that are kind of more of a sure bet if you want the white sand beach? [00:21:20.200] - Joella Doobrow Margaritaville is right on the water, and that is sand beach. I feel on the east. It's not as white powdery sand. You'll find that on the West Coast. There's also the the Ritz Carlton, either on Key Biscayne down south or if you want to go north on Amelia Island. Both of them have great family programs. I mean, it is more luxury. It's more that luxury family resort type thing. But they have, you know, different pools once for the family, once, you know, just for the kids and for the adults and the kids club is always really good with Ritz Carlton. So those are beach. [00:21:56.760] - Tamara Gruber They even have those cute little like rich kids check in like a little stepstool so the kids can check it. And I stayed that Amelia Island one one said it was it was nice because I think there's a lot of, like, pirate history up there. So a lot of the kids program activities were involving, like, we're going to look for sharks teeth. We're going to, you know, learn about pirates. And we have like a pirate tuck in and we do stargazing at night in the dunes and some cool things like that that you may not think of as more Floridian, you know. [00:22:25.300] - Joella Doobrow And Amelia Island, the beaches there are pretty nice. So, you know, if you're looking for more of that powdery sand, that's as close as you're going to get, I think, on the East Coast. Cool. [00:22:35.440] - Tamara Gruber Do you have any others that you would want to mention on the East Coast or should we move over to the West Coast? [00:22:39.720] - Joella Doobrow I think let's move on to the Gulf Coast. [00:22:42.550] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I love the Gulf Coast because there you do find that that powdery sand, but also that blue green water. And it's like calmer and warmer. [00:22:52.840] - Joella Doobrow It's my favorite part of Florida and it's when we want to get away, that's where we tend to go, even if we just go for the day. That's that is, you know, what we love. We feel more at peace there because, you know, you don't have the huge big waves. And like you said, the sand is like super white and powdery and the water is calm and it goes with that clear blue to that emerald green. [00:23:17.290] - Tamara Gruber What areas do you like to stay at or would you like to visit? What do you think families should go to on the Gulf Coast? [00:23:23.380] - Joella Doobrow So our our favorites that that we go to pretty much all the time as either Marco Island or Naples. So Naples, we do a lot of day trips there. And if we want to stay overnight, a lot of times we do, Marco, because we really love the J.W. Marriott that is there. It's really family friendly. You can also use points, which is fabulous. You know, if if you want to reduce cost, they do have three miles of private beach. [00:23:47.560] - Joella Doobrow They have 12 restaurants inside. They have golf courses, you know, water sports day camps for the kids. And, you know, they even have the dove in movie. I mean, I don't know if they're doing that now during quarantine, of course. But, you know, they they used to do that where they had the huge screen outside. And you just you could stay on the pool and watch the movie from there. And on that side of the Gulf, they they can set you up to do the dolphin watching tours, which are fabulous. [00:24:12.550] - Joella Doobrow We've done like kayaking out there and out to the Ten Thousand Islands. And, you know, you can see the domes out there. It's all it's really neat is there are a lot of shelling. So there's kids that, you know, like looking at the different shells and collecting them. It's a great area for that. So we really like staying there. [00:24:31.960] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, we're definitely on the same wavelength here because you and I seem to like a lot of the same hotels. My daughter and I stayed there December of twenty nineteen and we loved it because they had also just open some kind of like microbrew, but it also had like a game room. So it was almost like Dave and Busters kind of place in a way. And so we played a bunch of games and we just had such a blast. And it's not far to the Everglades, too. I know one day we took a day trip down and did an airboat tour, see the alligators, you know, all that kind of stuff. [00:25:09.430] - Joella Doobrow We did a kayaking tour through the mangroves and the Everglades there with a small local company. And, you know, it was fabulous. You get to see the alligators really right next to you and wildlife, all the birds. It's we love that area. [00:25:24.370] - Tamara Gruber Although for some people, the whole alligators may not be right next to them, may not be a positive. I feel like every time I post something from, like a some type of tour that has alligators, they're like, are you crazy? [00:25:39.490] - Kim Tate That's so funny that I live in Seattle, you know, and I've actually done sea kayaking. And, you know, it's funny because I'm scared of alligators. Yet I went out in the sea in kayaked where orcas regularly, you know, will come and they can really flip you. So, yeah, I'm like, I'm probably need to keep my mouth shut and just understand that, you know, alligators probably a lot less scary than orca whales, but. [00:26:01.150] - Joella Doobrow Well, you can always just do the the boat and they take you on the boat. Exactly. You know. Yeah. No problem with flipping the dolphins come right up on you. [00:26:10.570] - Joella Doobrow And then if you if you go when the the waters are warm, the manatees are [00:26:15.530] - Kim Tate I that's what I would love to see would be the manatees that people are they now are the manatees more like inland from the, you know, Gulf side or are they inland? [00:26:25.720] - Joella Doobrow You see them right on the Gulf. OK, yeah. So on the Ten Thousand Islands and you can get there on a tour from Marco all through the canals there. When the waters are warm, you see the manatees, I mean, hundreds and thousands of them. But now, you know, during more of the winter, they migrate from the ocean and they go into the springs closer to central Florida. You see a lot of them up there. [00:26:50.590] - Joella Doobrow And then where the power plants are that keep the water warm so they all kind of migrate to where the waters are warmer. So that's why everybody kind of goes up to the springs to see them there. [00:27:02.200] - Tamara Gruber When we were in Captiva, my gosh, Hannah was probably like four the resort that we stayed at, had a marina and they would always hang out there. So we would just go kind of sit in the marina and watch the manatees bobbing around. I mean, they're so they're ugly but fascinating and cute all at the same time, you know, so. [00:27:18.700] - Joella Doobrow So you said Captiva. And I'm going to let you in on a little secret that us locals here do. There is a little resort down there. It's called Twin Waters Island Resort. And you have to call them the day of if you're if you're local. And it used to be for. Five dollars, but I think it's gone up to 60 now per car, and if they have availability, you pay the 60 dollars, you park your car there. [00:27:42.450] - Joella Doobrow They used to give you, I don't know, twenty five or thirty dollars in credit that you could use in the resort and you could use the facilities, the beach, which is right there, because, as you know, Captiva, there's no real public like it's all like you have to be staying at a home or a resort and so you can use all the property and the amenities and I mean pretty much have a day at a resort. [00:28:07.500] - Kim Tate Florida is really big on right now is day passes and I think that's going to be I did that once when I had a cruise, that we had a late flight out and I bought a day pass to a resort in Fort Lauderdale. And we spent the day we had a room at the resort and we played on the beach and the pool. And then we went to the airport at five pm or whatever. And it was so great. And I know there's a lot of Florida hotels that do that. [00:28:31.140] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, it's great. It's great. This one's kind of hidden. People don't know much about it. Yeah. [00:28:36.750] - Tamara Gruber Now, what about Naples? Do you have a favorite place to stay there? [00:28:40.620] - Joella Doobrow Yes, but I'll talk a little bit about that when we talk about a girlfriend getaway. [00:28:46.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I'd say there are a couple of times and you know, one, I think it was the Naples Grande, which I didn't really love. It was for a family vacation. Yeah. And then the last time Hannah and I just spent a couple of days and I had Marriott points, so I went from the J.W. Marriott, Marco Island to the residence inn Naples. I was trying to balance the use of those points. [00:29:09.060] - Joella Doobrow I have stayed at the Ritz, they have the one by the ocean and then they have the one that's the golf course. And we really do like that. We have stayed up at the grand and it's there's no luxury, but it's we like that beach is really nice, although there's public access to it. And then there's the little inn on fifth. [00:29:29.970] - Tamara Gruber So any other favorite places on the Gulf Coast or even in the other families. [00:29:34.350] - Joella Doobrow I think Tradewinds in the St.. Pete Clearwater area is probably the best bet. I mean it is huge. It's like close to sixteen thousand square feet of floating ocean water park, which I'm sure it's not running right now. But you know, during regular times, having a great floating ocean water park is fantastic. They have five pools, you know, like ten restaurants and bars. Four hundred and fifty cabanas, kids club. I mean, all kinds of stuff. [00:30:03.060] - Joella Doobrow They think they have two different properties with different amenities on each. But and it is not a luxury. It is pure fun. It's a great place for families just looking to really be entertained. So that's what limitation for that tomorrow. [00:30:19.620] - Kim Tate And then we're in Clearwater before. And I think it seemed like an ideal family destination. [00:30:26.350] - Joella Doobrow St. Pete and Clearwater has a lot to do. I mean, even if you don't stay just in the resort, there's tons of things in the area as well. Another place we really love as a family is Anna Maria Island. We just recently stayed in a small boutique resort. There normally will either rent a house or stay off the island with points somewhere and then just commute in. But we stayed at this small boutique resort that only has about eight rooms, and it's called the Rod and Reel resort. [00:30:50.880] - Joella Doobrow And it's super quaint, super nice. It's all inclusive. They provide you with bicycles and kayaks and paddle boards. And the suites are great because there's tons of room for the family. So like we stayed in a two bedroom, which was great. The kids feel like they had all the room to themselves or bathroom and just, you know, kind of on their own like that on top of us. So they really, really liked it. And the island itself is just great for families. [00:31:20.370] - Joella Doobrow There's very laid back, cute little restaurants. You can get everybody by bicycle. And the beaches are absolutely stunning, beautiful sunsets. And we just love it there. That sounds awesome. I know that, you know, it seems like there's these little hidden areas all around Florida, there's so much coastline, I'm sure there's a lot of little you know, I feel this this one's kind of being more discovered now. [00:31:44.150] - Joella Doobrow And it's yeah, it's getting hard to even get rooms there. And they're going up in prices, which is, you know, I think part of. [00:31:50.940] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about Florida, because it seems like for people who are ready to travel and do feel comfortable traveling, Florida is definitely seeing a huge boom in tourism. So if people are looking for escapes, it seems like the hotels there are welcome. [00:32:05.300] - Joella Doobrow There are definitely open. It's like nothing's ever going on. [00:32:12.980] - Kim Tate Well, one last area before we move on, I just want to ask about is the Panhandle, which I hear a lot of people talking about. Do you have any? [00:32:22.790] - Joella Doobrow I have stayed in Port St. near Port St. Joe, but we rented we rented a house, a home there and stayed on the beach. But I know that there's beautiful areas like Rosemary Beach and Seaside, and I've just never made it up there. It takes me nine hours to get to the Panhandle. So it's not something we've done. [00:32:45.290] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, you have enough beaches close to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's and I definitely hear that that area is more, you know, for like the vacation rental market, like I've heard of, like what is it, water color in or something that's that's would be very, very nice but definitely more known for its vacation rental home. [00:33:03.820] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, definitely. I mean it's great you do a whole week and you mean you can split it with a family and you know, it's, it's really nice you bring in your groceries and just hang out. We did that in I mean, near Port St. Joe. I don't remember what the name of the town was, but it was in that area. And I have friends who have stayed in Seaside and they've absolutely loved it. [00:33:24.380] - Tamara Gruber Well, obviously, one of the areas that people love to go to in Florida is Orlando. So not on the beach, but do you have any places that you really love if you're in the Orlando area? [00:33:33.380] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, well, I mean, if we're going to talk about some Disney hotels, our favorite is Animal Kingdom Lodge, just because we are big animal lovers and you know, the idea of having the giraffes walking by and it's it's just. [00:33:48.440] Awesome. Plus, I think the pools are really beautiful, the they have like that zero in depth entry that kind of looks like a watering hole. I mean, the way they think they're their hotels is just great. You know, the playgrounds with the ropes and bridge and you can kind of overlook and see the animals on the other side. And of course, the food is phenomenal at that resort. So I'm all about the food, too. So we like it there. [00:34:13.340] - Kim Tate Now we're talking about Disney, my newest favorite little spot is I loved the Riviera resort because it's on the skyline. And just having that way of getting in and out of the parks, especially I two kids who really love Epcot and the Riviera. The skyline has a kind of back entrance to the world showcase in Epcot, which with teenagers, it's really nice because they can you can kind of stay in the room if you're tired and they can go back out. [00:34:37.610] - Joella Doobrow Yeah. For us, when we go to Epcot, we usually stay at either the Swan or the dolphin. Yeah. Just because I mean, it's not over. Yeah. You can walk and it's not it's not technically a Disney hotel, so it's not themed, you know, in that way. But if you have little kids you can still like I think it's the swan has the, you know, the meal, the breakfast, the standards. So you can do that. [00:35:04.130] - Joella Doobrow You know, they do give you perks. You can get transportation to the parks, free parking, you know, the extra magic hours and the complimentary, you know, fastpass plus or whatever that's that's called. You get some of the perks. [00:35:15.980] - Kim Tate But yeah, there are Marriott property. So points person, you can try and snag a room. It's really hard there. [00:35:24.230] - Joella Doobrow And I don't think the redemption is all that great for either. But yeah. Because our prices I mean are are fairly low, especially compared to some of the other resorts that are right there. I mean some of the big Disney resorts that are super expensive are right there. So compared to them, this is a big deal. So that's why we do that. Especially we're going to like the food and wine or something like that. Yeah, we're going to drink a little bit. And you can just walk home. [00:35:50.450] - Kim Tate Yeah. What other places other than Disney do you love? [00:35:55.130] - Joella Doobrow In Orlando, I mean, if we're if we're going to stay in the Orlando area and budget is not an issue, I mean, the Four Seasons is beautiful for a resort. You don't have to leave. Yeah, you really don't have to leave. It's everything is just there. It's just ridiculously expensive. [00:36:13.850] - Tamara Gruber Well, you kind of teased us earlier by talking about some girl trip destinations. Now, Kim and I did a girls trip down to the Keys, but I'd love to hear if you have any places that you love for girls trip to Florida. Yes. [00:36:25.790] - Joella Doobrow And I won't mention the Keys at all. OK, so I actually feel Palm Beach is a fabulous place for girls trip. I would recommend two resorts. I mean, that you can pick depending on the kind of vibe that you want. I mean, there's Eau Palm Beach which actually used to be a Ritz Carlton. So their spa is fantastic. It's like a forty two thousand square foot spots, like one of the best ones there. And it's phenomenal. [00:36:53.810] - Joella Doobrow So if you want to do that with the girls, that's awesome. They have a great adult only pool. And of course, there's all the luxury that comes with with the brand. And then if you kind of prefer that more cutesy Instagram style type hotel, there's The Colony. So that one's not on the beach, but they do take you to the beach. And not only do they take it to the beach, they have a beach butler that will deliver like little bites and stuff in a pink yeti cooler. [00:37:23.450] - Joella Doobrow So everything's kind of very Instagram able. I mean, you'll find pinks and blues and flamingo prince and banana leaf prints. It's just all super cute and Instagramable. [00:37:35.000] - Tamara Gruber So it's a good place to wear your lily Pulitzer dresses. [00:37:37.820] - Joella Doobrow Perfect. And it's just fun, fun place for the girls. And they have bikes that you can take everything in. And Palm Beach is very either walkable or you can get around with a bike. So it's you can just get on the bikes and go exploring lots of really good restaurants. It's a fun place and shopping, of course, lots of shopping. If I was somebody that I follow on Instagram that's been posting pictures from the colony this week and so I'm very familiar with what you mean with that like pastel pink and. [00:38:07.590] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, yeah. Looks very cute. It is cute but is cute and I mean another one. If you kind of like the whole spa thing and maybe want to be closer to some of the Miami action, there is the aqualina resort and spa. It is. It's around Sunny Isles. So it's it's really kind of nice, the location, it's on the beach and it's close to both Aventura and Bal Harbor shops. So between spending time on the beach, pool, spa and shopping, I mean, make for great girls getaway. [00:38:42.600] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I've heard great things about that hotel also. [00:38:45.930] - Joella Doobrow I've gone there just for spa, like we have a month here that is spa month. So they have like really discounted rates. So we'll we'll take the girls and we'll just go for a spa day though. [00:38:56.610] - Kim Tate So nice. I'm definitely dreaming of a girls getaway. Yeah. So but what about if we're looking for a romantic getaway. [00:39:03.960] - Kim Tate I know Tamara. That's one of the reasons she's eyeing Florida a lot in case her Greece trip doesn't happen. So what do you think about that? [00:39:11.420] - Joella Doobrow Well, if you win the lottery and want to go to Little Palm Island, go for it. If you don't, then I think a little less expensive alternative are the bungalows at Key Largo. That was the other one I was looking at. Yeah, it's an adult only property. It's all inclusive. It's, you know, kind of smaller in size. Has that feel of like you're in Bali. They have like that little spa garden getaway kind of thing. [00:39:36.570] - Joella Doobrow It's it's supposed to be really nice and romantic. I personally have not been, but I would think that that would be a great place. I have been to the Checca Lodge. And that was really nice. I know they're remodeling it right now, so I don't I think it won't be ready till sometime in 2022, but that's another really nice option. [00:39:57.100] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, Kim, that was one that we were maybe going to stay at when we were in Key Largo. Yeah, but then we ended up at Baker's. [00:40:03.580] - Kim Tate I really liked that Baker's Cay spot that they put us up at. I thought that was nice and I haven't even heard of that. [00:40:11.590] - Tamara Gruber That was was that an autograph? I remember one that we stayed at was not autograph. And when we visited was a curio collection by Hilton or I may have flipped those, something like that. Yeah. [00:40:22.660] - Kim Tate I think the curio one was the baker's key I think. Yeah. And then there was the one next door to it too and I don't remember what that one was. [00:40:29.740] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I playa Largo I think. Well that's some nice options. Do you have any others for a romantic getaway. I mean at this point anything sounds good to me. Yeah. [00:40:38.920] - Joella Doobrow I mean I like, I like Amelia Island on the East but I would rent, I would rent or stay in a little bed and breakfast or something. Right. [00:40:48.500] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, and the Omni has those residences right on property, so you can, like, have your own condo. I mean, that's not maybe quite as charming, romantic as you might be imagining with a bed and breakfast. [00:41:03.170] - Joella Doobrow Yeah, it's an option and it definitely is an option. [00:41:06.230] - Tamara Gruber Cool. Well, that's a lot of ground that we covered are a lot of coastline at least. I was going to say a lot of state. You gave us some great ideas to think about. And now I just, of course, want to travel more than ever. But out of everything that we talked about, do you have a favorite that you've been to? [00:41:23.690] - Joella Doobrow Oh, it's it's hard. I think we just keep going back to the day of Marriott in Marco just because we love the location. The amenities are great. It's the prices reasonable. It just kind of ticks all the boxes for us. Lots of, like little day trips and things that we can do from their little excursions on boats and kayaking and that kind of stuff. So it takes a lot of the boxes for us. So that's where we keep going back to. [00:41:53.150] - Joella Doobrow I feel like the changes by the mood, it's seasonal too, right? Yeah, that's true. I mean, some of them, you know, get decorate are really nice around Christmas when you go, you know, I mean, Disney is absolutely beautiful. During Christmas. [00:42:07.640] - Kim Tate I was just going to ask, is there a season that you think that people, you know, if they're looking for kind of a resort beach, you know, we're thinking more of the traditional Florida beach escape. Is there, you know, any seasons that you think are great for either weather and or money? Like savings, like getting deals? [00:42:24.120] - Joella Doobrow Well, for savings, hurricane season. But yeah, but you probably don't want to travel during hurricane season. [00:42:31.970] - Joella Doobrow Summer usually, believe it or not, has the better deals because it is incredibly hot. So you do get better deals like this time of the year is expensive because it's horrible everywhere else and everybody wants to come to Florida. Yeah, but the weather's great. And that's why everybody I mean, this is perfect weather here now. I mean, you can still go in the in the ocean. It's, you know, seventy three degrees out. You know, it's perfect. [00:42:56.960] - Joella Doobrow I mean, spring is great here, but it's expensive. [00:43:00.650] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. You're in season. [00:43:04.190] - Tamara Gruber Well, I guess we want to wrap up by asking a question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, do you have a favorite travel outfit or brand of clothing that you like to wear when you're traveling? [00:43:14.990] - Joella Doobrow Oh, well, in Florida, I mostly wear like sun dresses and maxi dresses. I have some favorite rap rap style dresses that I get from Lulus when they're on sale. But I'm not I don't like just subscribe to one brand. It's whatever I find. I'm not brand loyal. So if I find something else that's comfortable, it's fine. But if I'm going to do anything outdoors and hiking, which we love to do, but we don't do that in Florida, we go away for that. [00:43:39.290] - Joella Doobrow Then usually we do Columbia. We have a great we have great outlet shops here. So I actually live really close to a Columbia outlet and we get most of our stuff from there. And then, of course, also Prana when they're on sale. [00:43:52.460] - Joella Doobrow So those are kind of my those are two of them, too, like outdoorsy, relaxed, you know, gear. I absolutely love Prana and Columbia both. Yeah. [00:44:00.920] - Tamara Gruber And I know from seeing you on Instagram, you always have very cute dresses. [00:44:06.320] - Joella Doobrow I have I have these wrap dresses from Lulus, which I mean, one, they're super, super comfortable for travel, too. They look fabulous. Some pictures. And, you know, you can dress them up or dress them down. [00:44:19.380] - Kim Tate Great. So, you know, Tamara mentioned seeing you on Instagram, so do you want to let our listeners know where they can find you online? Yes, I do live most of my life there on Instagram, on my handle is roving Joe, I do have the same handle on Facebook and my website is the same as roving Jo Dotcom. [00:44:38.060] - Tamara Gruber And that's Joe with no E at the end. [00:44:39.860] - Tamara Gruber Just so. Yes, everyone knows and we'll link to that in their show notes. So thank you again for coming in and sharing your expertise with us. And we hope everyone does pop over to Instagram and give you a follow and a little shout out there. [00:44:55.260] - Joella Doobrow And thanks for having me. This was super fun and I hope I was able to provide some valuable information. [00:45:01.130] - Kim Tate I think you have us all dreaming of kind of a nice, you know, warm weather beach escape right now. So it's helpful to have an idea of where to look. [00:45:12.530] - Kim Tate As always, thanks for joining us for another week here at Vacation MAVEN's. [00:45:16.790] - Tamara Gruber And stay tuned because next time we're going to be talking to someone all about family travel tech. So your favorite gadgets to help make family travel a little bit easier. [00:45:25.970] - Kim Tate Can't wait for that one, because you know me, I'm all about travel and tech gadgets. [00:45:29.960] - Tamara Gruber So stay tuned.

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185 Tips for Finding Hotel Deals

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 16, 2021 48:03

Needs some tips for stretching your vacation budget to go further? This week we chat with dad and tech entrepreneur Nate Ritter, from RoomSteals and learn some new tricks for finding hotel deals. About Nate Ritter Nate is a travel expert, who first got started in 2007 when he was able to fly & stay in Paris for $300 (accommodation included). This first experience sparked his interest in all things travel hacking through miles/points/finding deals, etc. Most recently, he founded RoomSteals, which is a chrome extension that lets you see wholesale hotel rates before booking. Most companies, like Expedia and Booking, make money by marking up the hotel price or getting a commission (between 7-18%). They don’t add margin or take commission, so the prices are at the rock bottom. You can follow Nate on Twitter or you can follow RoomSteals. Tips for Finding Hotel Deals One way to get cheap accommodations is to look for new home exchange start ups and sign up with them. Often they will offer points or credits just for listing your house, even if you don't want to actually swap your house. Sometimes those points are enough to get a free stay. One option is Love Home Swap which was later bought by HomeExchange.com. Hotels have wholesale inventory that they offer to online travel agencies but those prices aren't usually available to the public. RoomSteals allows anyone to become a member and lets you see those wholesale rates. RoomSteals is a Chrome browser extension that shows these secret deals once you are logged in and looking at hotel rates on Booking.com, Expedia, Travelocity, etc. You don't need to be a paid member to log in and see the wholesale rates but once you see the rates and want to book, you need a paid membership to RoomSteals.com. RoomSteals doesn't make a commission or transaction fee on bookings, only on a subscription of $59 per year (currently). Members often save enough on one trip to cover the cost of the annual membership. RoomSteals.com will show you the cheapest rate at that hotel, which may not be the exact room configuration that you are looking for. But you can compare once you look at RoomSteals booking engine and you can always select the room configuration that you want even if the price is slightly different. Members are saving an average of 25% across an entire year of bookings. You typically do not use points when you book wholesale rates, but you can always call the hotel in advance or give your number at check in to see if you can still get credit for your stay. Also look closely at the rate as often it is non-refundable or does not have some of the amenities like free breakfast or such. It is hard to find wholesale rates during peak travel seasons. It is easier to find rates when there is a bit of a lull in the market. Discounts can be as drastic as $300 for a $3000 penthouse suite. It often helps to call and talk to someone personally in advance as you will be more apt to get upgraded or special perks if you form a personal connection. Use coupon code VacationMavens to receive 20% off an annual membership to RoomSteals.com. [00:00:00.000] - Kim Tate Today we're talking about how to score a steal of a deal on your next hotel. [00:00:16.200] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, the family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Hosts Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.700] - Kim Tate Well Tamara, when this episode airs you are going to be on the road off on an adventure with a teenager. So maybe we could talk before we start chatting about hotels. Let's talk a little bit about road trips road trip planning and in anything useful you think our listeners would like to know if there might be helpful for them cuz I have a feeling road trips are going to be pretty popular this spring break. [00:00:53.300] - Tamara Gruber We have done a lot of road trips and so this isn't our first rodeo as they say but this is time Glenn is coming along too. So I don't know if it will make it harder or or what, but it is a massive road trip. Like I'm almost embarrassed to tell people because they are like where you going and I said, well we're going to go look at colleges and they think that we're just going around the New England area and we have enough colleges here but we're actually making our way all the way out to Colorado, so I can't even imagine how many miles we are going to put on the car. Glenn asked if you want to bring the Tesla and I was like no way because I know that while its a great car, but we just don't want to have to like sit and charge all the time and she likes more space or whatever. [00:01:45.500] - Tamara Gruber Well by the time you hear this we will be I don't even know what state will be in like, Michigan or Wisconsin I think maybe Ohio but we are we're heading through Pennsylvania and looking at schools in Pennsylvania then we are going to Cleveland. We're going to Ann Arbor, Michigan; Madison, Wisconsin, we're going to go and stop a night in Nebraska and then make our way to Colorado and then we're going to spend a few nights. [00:02:08.900] - Tamara Gruber Then I set up a stay at a ranch which is going to be our relaxation portion of our trip and then book it all the way back to the east coast. Of course. We are stopping a couple of nights along the way because it is a lot of driving we get back and then we need a quarantine for a week and I'll be so happy to not have to drive Hannah to school. Our car is going to need another service by the time we get back. [00:02:36.900] - Kim Tate I'm sure it will be like when we did that Maine trip kind and I assume you're driving the Volvo then? It served us well it's going to tag along again [00:02:48.400] - Tamara Gruber Hey it went down to Florida and back in the summer. So, you know, it's got a lot of miles but yeah, it took I mean for us to this trip was really it was all about, you know, seeing colleges. We feel like there's quite a few to see she's interested in ones kind of all across the country. Even if we wanted to fly to them. We don't we have to be like hopping onto planes here and there if we really can't travel at all during school because of the quarantine requirements and so luckily the spring break works out where she is on a hybrid week when we get back. And so when we get back we can quarantine so do her virtual learning. The rules here are you have to test after 5 days quarantine for 7 and then she has to test again before she goes into school. So it all works out. You know, it's great. It's an opportunity for us to look at quite a few schools and hopefully we'll get a few more in over the summer and then she can decide where she wants to apply and if she wants to do early decision or any of those kind of things cuz fall's just crazy cuz we have soccer which is a very time-consuming thing and then she'll be you know, in her new classes and working on an application. [00:03:57.400] - Tamara Gruber So it's really not ideal time to go look at schools unless they're local and then of course you could wait until after you get acceptances or whatever, but I think she would like to just narrow down where she would like to apply so it'll be good, you know, obviously there's no tours happening, but it's just about going and like walking the campuses seeing the surrounding areas are some of them have a self-guided walking like Maps or apps are things that you can use. So yeah so are our route was very much dictated by okay, which schools are on her potential list that we could kind of wrap into this trip and how many hours in between and how much like when are we going to get there while we have at least like half a day to spend, you know in this area before we move on and the timing was very much dictated by that like, okay, we've got a six-hour drive. We're going to get in here at night and then leave the next morning and and then in the afternoon, we'll head to the next place or something like that. So it's it's very it's like it's not a relaxing trip. [00:04:59.100] - Kim Tate That sounds like it's a little different cuz I don't know. You have planned a lot of road trips and so have we. Do you have a plan of how far each day you want to drive and I know it makes a difference with that where you're saying you're more about getting to the destination. But you know for us we're headed out on a road trip down along the coast and so we're going to make Scenic stops. Like we want to be able to pull out and you know it admire the scenery take some photos. There's stops along the way. So do you guys have a plan normally when you're planning a road trip like we don't do more than this many hours per day. [00:05:34.300] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. I'm going to try to stick to that just cuz I know how exhausting it can be. We definitely are driving down to Florida and 21 hours with you know, something that we're not eager to do again, but we try to stick to somewhere between like a 7 to 9 hours a day and we have a couple of those are going to have to drive from Wisconsin to Colorado. I think it would be like a 14-hour drive in this just like a little too much. [00:05:59.600] - Tamara Gruber So we're stopping in Nebraska like along the way to break that up and then when we come back we're going from Steamboat Springs in Colorado, which is kind of in the central Colorado and then we not like Center but like it's it's not on the Eastern edge of Colorado. I guess I should say and then we're going to drive like I was debating. Can we make it to Kansas City? Can you do should we try to push all the way to you know, Saint Louis like how far do we go? And we did we decided you know, what we're going to push for like, I think it's an 11-hour day that day and get somewhere in Kansas and then go to St. [00:06:41.400] - Tamara Gruber Louis the next day and then St Louis to Columbus and then Columbus home is going to be like a 12-hour day, but it was one of those things where it's like well at the time with Pennsylvania or New York, you've had quarantine or testing requirements. So I'm like, well, we can't stop Pennsylvania or New York overnight. So we kind of have to just push through that last leg. So I think again with everything like with covid it's not always what we typically do is. [00:07:09.200] - Tamara Gruber We have to do so, you know sometimes right now but I would say generally we try to stick to like a 7 to 9 hour driving day because you know, I mean if it's not much driving, obviously you stop to go to the bathroom. You stop to pick up some food, you know, so it becomes a lot longer. [00:07:25.600] - Kim Tate When we're planning our road trips. Like when we go out to Canada to visit family where it's more like we're just taking a little time on the road and get into Canada. [00:07:35.800] - Kim Tate Then we're normally around that 7 to 9 hour mark is what we would actually works out to almost 7 hours one day and nine hours the next almost perfectly good spot. But when I'm doing scenic driving I try and keep it around the 3-5 hour mark and that's even last time when we did our California coast trip. I planned on 5 hour days and that was way too much we missed out on so many things and we are getting in to these beautiful destinations at night so late where you didn't even see the ocean and you missed the California sunsets you were having dinner at 8 at night and so for me when I'm doing like a Scenic Drive, I try and keep it around that 3 to definitely no more than five hours. But the three two three four hour is kind of in my opinion a sweet spot for us a Scenic nice vacation drives that makes sense that money, [00:08:33.500] - Tamara Gruber especially something like the California coast. Because there are so so many places to stop. I know we just drove like Carmel to Cambria and that drive there is so many places to stop like just yeah, you think you think that you're going to make it by like you said that you end up spending way more time than you think so, I think that's really very smart. There is definitely a difference between a we're driving to get there and we're driving to enjoy our drive. [00:09:04.200] - Kim Tate Yeah, and I think that's what people maybe don't always consider and think about enough and also just how many days you are going to be at it like the fact that you guys are seasoned roadtrippers. So, you know what that feels like what I mean for people who aren't used to it the leg cramp sciatica back. I mean it it gets exhausting. And so if you're pushing a seven and nine hour days for 3-4 days in a row, you're you're not going to be happy and you're not going to have I mean, I don't know if you're not going to have a good vacation. [00:09:32.300] - Tamara Gruber That's what I'm a little bit worried about Glenn cuz he has not done many of the road trips with us at all. You know. What were we certainly drive to New York the New York-New Jersey area all the time, but that can be like me anywhere from 4 hours till like seven hours depending on traffic. But yeah, so it'll be interesting and that's why I tried to make sure we didn't have too many back-to-back long drives, you know, like the super long like, okay, let's like I think when we are doing that last home, it'll be like, we just want to get home like you have that anyway, yes, so I think that'll be a motivator to us and I didn't want to have too many of those long days. And if I did have a really long day like when we have like a 10-hour day and the next day is only like a 4-Hour day and then we're going to spend some time in St. Louis. You know, I went to the top of the arch. [00:10:22.200] - Kim Tate I want to say that that Arch I have been there. I was there when I was a little kid and then recently again later in life. I remember being told to go up to the windows when you're at the top when you get out in a little room and 2 lean like you put your feet against it and lean into the window that do not have Glenn do that. It is just freakiest feeling I've ever experienced you actually I don't know if it's something about the way the windows are cut you feel like you're falling like you feel like the arch is falling like it's moving. Yeah, but a very weird sensation. [00:11:09.000] - Tamara Gruber I did go out in the Sears Tower or whatever. It's called now in Chicago where they have those like box that like go out and I did do that. It took me a minute, but actually it was easier. If I like sat down on it then when I was standing in it, I don't know why but it just felt like more secure but they have all of those kind of things now where it's like the Tilt out, you know where you are like cleaning? Hannah will do it. [00:11:36.800] - Kim Tate I'm sure you are going to have a great time and I'm looking forward to following along and it'll be fun to hear. You know, what Hannah thought and what you guys experienced on the college visits on our upcoming road trip. We are swinging through to a UC Berkeley which is on Lizzy's list. And so we'll see what that campus looks like. Again, it's California, so there's not any open. We're just going to swing through there and. [00:12:09.100] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, well, we have to let me know cuz that's definitely maybe one that we would get to in the summer as well. And I just I hear that that's a very beautiful campus and it yeah, you know, a lot of these campuses that are not closed campuses like you do residents and everyone kind of walks through them. Anyway. Just can't go into buildings . [00:12:25.300] - Kim Tate Yeah we will see, I mean she cannot afford UC Berkeley but luckily it's not her first. It's not her absolute first choice, but it's definitely on her list, so. [00:12:38.000] - Kim Tate Well, let's talk to Nate because we're going to go from talking about planning our drives to learning about maybe some little tricks to getting a great deal and all those hotels that we have to stay at along the way [00:12:49.500] - Tamara Gruber which is certainly helpful so let's talk to Nate. [00:12:58.600] - Tamara Gruber We're here with me Twitter. Nate is a travel expert who got started in 2007 when he was able to fly and stay in Paris for $300 and his first experience sparked his interest in all things travel hacking through miles points and finding deals most recently. He founded rooms deals, which is a Chrome extension that lets you see wholesale rates before booking and today he lives in San Diego with his family. So welcome Nate! [00:13:22.700] - Nate Ritter Thanks for having me! [00:13:24.700] - Tamara Gruber I'm a little jealous of the sunny San Diego and I'm here in the cold snowy Northeast. But you know, it's okay one day I'll get to travel those places again. [00:13:34.700] - Nate Ritter We have I please have our crosses to bear right buyers. So you have cold. [00:13:40.600] - Tamara Gruber So I thought it'd be nice to get a little bit of your backstory. Maybe can tell us like how you got started. Obviously that trip to Paris was pretty influential. Can you tell us a little bit about how you managed that and what where that has led since. [00:13:58.700] - Nate Ritter Yeah, absolutely I just love the travel hacking was by the way your second podcast with DF and then he had another one recently right with Lynn. These are fantastic podcast. So I'm happy to be here on that. Yeah, so flying to Paris for a couple hundred dollars round trip, and we stayed we actually stayed there for a month with free accommodations as well. So we the only thing we really spent there was on food in dinner entertainment or whatever we did when we went out. [00:14:26.500] - Nate Ritter So it was pretty fantastic to be able to do that and you know it all credit to the person who taught me how to do it originally travel hacks in a couple years earlier that was it has changed our lives as a family for sure. So we we paid our first we paid for our first flight and hotel in about 10 years recently. So we've got to go get a couple we used to take an international trip every year or every other year and then about 5 or so domestic trips in the alternate year. I'm all for free. [00:14:58.700] - Nate Ritter Or almost-free would sometimes we have to pay taxes, but one of the bigger than a fun times we had was when we rented out our house for the weekend in San Diego. Comic-Con was a big event and we didn't didn't realize it until we rented it and then realized oh, this is a big event day and can somebody snapped it up so fast we can just we actually ended up backing it out cuz we were like nevermind so we backed it up and then we put it up and we used points to stay at a hotel for that weekend. [00:15:31.800] - Nate Ritter And so we went to hotel with a pool for the kids and the kitchen and all this kind of thing and we came back with $1,000 more than when we left. So that was our favorite favorite kind of moments the other than the Paris one. [00:15:44.500] - Tamara Gruber But yeah, that's another advantage of living in a place like, San Diego. [00:15:58.600] - Kim Tate You said someone gave you a tip to get you started, what was that? [00:16:01.200] - Nate Ritter Yeah, I think the travel hacking part of it that first step was when somebody had told me and I think I'm going to I can't remember exactly where they said they were going to say Amsterdam perhaps but they said they were going and they were only spending a couple hundred dollars. I never got to be there for a week and was like, that's no way like, how did you do that? And I trusted this guy is so it's like I know you're not lying to me. [00:16:22.600] - Nate Ritter Like, how did you how are you doing this and he's like, how do you know when it's every couple years to different places and I'm like, okay for real like what are you what it what is this like some weird club that night? [00:16:41.400] - Nate Ritter But now he was he sat down he's like, well, I have the spreadsheet and I have all these credit cards that we turn through and then he showed me the credit cards and he literally had like a ziplock bag full of credit card sound like that's in that's crazy like. You know, and so I asked all the typical first, you know, two questions that come you know come with it. How do you how do you do that? And I get your credit hit doesn't doesn't hurt your credit. [00:17:05.400] - Nate Ritter How do you how are you able to do that? Don't you get in a blacklisted by the credit cards? And you know, how long does it take to do it? Like all these questions? Right? And he's like, okay, it's alright. Let's just sit down for an evening in any explained it all in and that was it. I was hooked. [00:17:18.200] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, it's kind of like travel blogging and people always like I do you get to travel for free and like, well, you know, there's a lot of work behind it and it's like with travel hacking it is you're traveling for free, but you have to put an effort right to do that cuz I'm sitting here thinking like Kim, what are we doing wrong? Like I do travel and use points in miles and all that but not to quite that extent we're still paying a little bit more than $200 [00:17:44.700] - Kim Tate you know talked about this before tomorrow that it truly can be like the couponing thing and you have to have a real passion for it where the amount of time and effort is kind of fun and like a hobby to you because it's it takes a lot of work to manage all that. I mean I've seen the people like you said, I need that have like the credit cards in the every quarter. They change out every month or change output. [00:18:07.000] - Kim Tate Like what car do you use for dining, what card use for gas what can to use at grocery stores and they keep track of all that and it's it's definitely a lot of work. [00:18:15.100] - Nate Ritter I think it actually one of the hardest things not actually earning it even that like that's take some organization. I think the spending of those points is probably where it is the craziest cuz you have you know, only so many things right all the awards seats that that that alone with a divvy up the airline itself they divvy up all the seats into the all the different, you know categories and what not. Like that's I didn't know that until I started. [00:18:41.600] - Kim Tate And sometimes it's like so if you want to see the availability for this Airline, you actually go to this other partner line. If you're not going to talk about flying we are going to talk a little bit more about hotels but to start off, you know, we know you've mentioned that you have kids. So what do you normally look for in a hotel that you think makes it family-friendly when you're considering where to stay with your family?. [00:19:08.000] - Nate Ritter Yeah, there's a couple things we look for in fact, I recently just found a list of brands that I'm going to be looking for specifically, but we look for Extended Stay or Residence Inn type of brand and I think one of the reasons why we've all kind of gone towards Airbnb's because we get those kitchens and and the extra rooms and that kind of thing and so we don't we look for hotels, which usually if you see if you stay with a particular brand new kind of know what their standard is. [00:19:35.400] - Nate Ritter It's not quite as a variable at airbnb's of course with hotels, but should we look for these Extended Stays or residence Inns or those kinds of things where you get kitchenettes? That's our first that's the first thing we look for is do we get a kitchen. I'm usually that means that the room is slightly bigger as well and they're not that different of a price in any other hotels in so that our number one filter in the number two think we look for is transportation and I'm things that I like for instance it is it easy to get there with buses or Subways or ridesharing can be a little difficult unless if you have kids too big because I'm sure as many of your listeners know what do you do about the seats, you know, if you did you bring along when those inflatable ones or do they have them or do you never know? So inflatable seat car seats can be helpful in certain situations, but we really try and stick to public transportation if we can and then we look for a walkable locations. So less traffic roads Parks beaches nearby grocery stores restaurants all those kinds of things. [00:20:36.400] - Nate Ritter They really cut down on the cost of a transportation outside of the area that you're in but also just the enjoyment of like walking outside of your hotel are your accommodations in finding, you know a park to play into the kids or Beach to run on those kinds of things is just very very helpful. So one of the examples we have this when we did go to Paris now we have is absolutely gorgeous inside inner Courtyard area, and I'm the staff was amazing, especially to our kids sitting up like chocolates and fruit baskets and I mean like we're not a celebrity. [00:21:07.900] - Nate Ritter We were treated like it and that it was literally two blocks from the Eiffel Tower but it was practically hidden and it was to searching like like that that we kind of came across this this little gem of a of a hotel. It was tiny, but you'd never see it from the outside. But from the inside was just absolutely beautiful to [00:21:25.000] - Tamara Gruber I love those little hidden gems fantastic and as you are talking about some of those Brands. So I'm thinking like also like not only do they have kitchenettes which are so helpful, especially right now and you're trying to like maybe prepare more food or bring more food in if you are traveling but a lot of times they're the ones that have the free breakfast and then there was no charge for parking if you'd like those kind of things to so I'm actually looking at doing a road trip and that's exactly the kind of brand that we're looking at right now. [00:21:53.100] - Tamara Gruber So I imagine that when you were first doing your travel hacking it was a lot easier than when you started trying to manage it with traveling with a family. I mean, especially when it comes to the airfare is but you know hotels definitely add up, you know when you travel. [00:22:07.900] - Tamara Gruber The family and I both have teens. So just wait for that because then you need a little bit more space. You know, everybody doesn't fit into one room quite as easy, so I'm wondering do you have any tips on ways to find deals mean sounds like you've done a good job so far is it just using you know miles or are points rather or are you actually just into finding some good deals and kind of secret ways. [00:22:31.800] - Nate Ritter Yeah kind of a combination of things now with the credit card churning. It's become a bit difficult, especially with Chase and kind of the changes they have made in the recent years. So we do a bit less of that now but what are the ways in in this is something that is not not easy to do all the time because it's you have to kind of keep an eye on what's out there. But what we've done in the past to get like Frances free accommodations one way as we keep track and kind of look for new startups that would come out that we're kind of like home exchange type startups and we found one you may have heard of Called Love home swap. [00:23:06.700] - Nate Ritter And when they first started they were out of UK and they would actually give you points credits towards staying to get with another member if you just simply listed your home and so we didn't necessarily want to rent it out for say, but we did want to see you in a what was this exchange thing about and when we when we listed it we got points eventually home exchange. Com bought them and we transfer their points into that service, but we would get points just simply through services like that. [00:23:36.400] - Nate Ritter Just a listing are our house not necessarily even renting it then we ended up with I think about a month's worth of points in that way, but I learned through working in the travel industry about this kind of underlying inventory of hotel prices that existed that nobody really it's not public because of the way that the the hotel industry kind of works. They they have this agreement with the online travel agencies, which are like the expedia's and booking.com and hotels.com of the world have this agreement there that this whole it looks like we're going to call wholesale inventory does not exist in it. You can't exist in the public sphere. You can't show the prices for particular dates for that particular hotel. That's kind of a three points there if you do and it was some some companies have done this in the past. They can get their hands slapped and then basically they lose their ability to show that inventory. And so it's pretty push down upon in terms of like making sure that you know, who is who who's accessing these rates but there are there's a whole underlying set of hotel rates that I found out about it a couple years ago and I was just blown away that price difference is that are out there. And so that's the other other we're out that we trying and and get really good discount rates on hotels. [00:24:56.300] - Tamara Gruber Once you see that or once you know that there's some of those routes available like how do you then have access to him? Like I'm thinking I had a brief stint as a travel advisor for a short period of time. So I know the travel agents get commission and that's usually off of a best available rate. So clearly there's even better that could be offered and then there's of course like corporate rates and discounts things like that. But how is your kind of an average traveler family traveler? How do you get access to those more wholesale rates? [00:25:27.300] - Nate Ritter There's traditionally been offered to people in clubs. It is basically a closed user group and that's basically kind of these membership clubs where you would buy it and we've heard about these clubs that exists and have effectively the same inventory that we have with the product that we built but they have this this this inventory and they charge something like $1600 a year and then some like, you know, a hundred dollars a month or something like that to have access to it. [00:25:56.300] - Nate Ritter Essentially what it is is it's it's a non Publix. It's a private group of people wear the company whose administrating that group knows each of the members that I can't so that way it kind of keeps it to a private atmosphere so in a way you can kind of think of it as corporate rates. And so if you work for Verizon as an employee, for instance, you might be given some code or something that you could then tell the hotel. Hey, I have the corporate rate and they would give you a better discount better rate because the corporation has managed to negotiate this in this particular case is not even a negotiation. [00:26:29.600] - Nate Ritter It's just that this is what it used to be is it used to be that the hotels with bundle with airfare and tour operators in the area and those kinds of things and now because of the internet those have all been kind of unbundled and so now you have hotels which have a huge margin this underlying cause that's actually very low compared to what you're seeing online and so because of that unbundling that the online travel agencies like Expedia have done, now those are capable to be used in purchased just because of the industry acronyms they're not able to be purchased by the average consumer at the price that they could be. So what we do at RoomSteals. We've basically taken this idea and said well, we're just going to go ahead and say you anybody can become a member and you can see the see that price and where to make that completely transparent and so we're to show you what that prices and then let you book it. [00:27:24.700] - Nate Ritter If you would like so is a bit bit of a couple caveats the model and I had to how we're doing it. But the Baseline idea there is that we want to show the public. This is the actual wholesale rate that's available to you and it's just that we have to hide it behind at login. So you have to be a member and that's it. So we do that through social login. So for instance if you you can use a username and password, but the easiest ways to the also use for instance your Google account or Gmail account or something like that. [00:27:56.200] - Nate Ritter What you do with it is considered private and now we can show you the wholesale rates for trying to expose that to the public but doing so still within the rules of the travel industry. [00:28:05.500] - Kim Tate It's good to know that you're you're kind of aware of those the rules cuz I know you know, there was a big story about I think it's skiplagged or something like that where a guy had written code that basically would find it was cheaper to go to go from Orlando to Seattle and you want to there's a stop in Denver, but you find out that it's actually cheaper than what Orlando to Denver is. And so the skip lag was kind of doing this cheating way of getting you where you just get off the plane in Denver and not get back on. [00:28:35.300] - Kim Tate There was a problem because it was against the terms of service of your airfare, but it sounds like the secrets of power that by keeping it clean so that it is it is kind of open up now. Here's a question that I wonder do you earn any points? So if I'm a Marriott member and I find a Marriott deal and I use rooms deals what iron Marriott points still. [00:29:01.500] - Nate Ritter So that's a great question in Wholesale in the wholesale Marketplace traditionally, you don't and so what you're giving up. Is it giving up some of the amenities some of the extra things like using your loyalty cards in in those kinds of things you may not get for instance a free breakfast. Sometimes their terms of service might change. Do you want to come to pay attention that to see if it's refundable or cancel? A lot of times it is now because of covid-19 that's still something that they could be given up. [00:29:28.400] - Nate Ritter But what I found though is even with these rates actually to trick it seems to be just the one thing to do is is even if you booked a hotel rate in the matter what rate you book actually I would always now I always call the hotel ahead of time and I give him my loyalty card in the added to my reservation nine times out of ten. Even if it's a wholesale rate and then the same thing though, I would also call and just you know talk to them and many times do I upgrade you to a room? Like for instance that that's small room that I mentioned in Paris next to the Eiffel Tower we just told them hey, we had this kind of crazy experience and we're coming in and you know that we know it's last-minute and we just kind of told him the story and our story as to what we were experiencing while being there and they like, oh no problem come in and they upgraded us to this suite and that's when they started sending like chocolates and like all kinds of crazy stuff and it was just because we had a conversation we didn't we didn't specifically ask for it and we didn't even infer it, we were just surprised by it and it was just because you know as a front desk clerk, I mean their job is to really make your stay really great. [00:30:33.500] - Nate Ritter And if they have room in time to do that, then they'll do it in the same thing goes for the loyalty points. So back to your question that it if you just simply say I have a loyalty card tonight add that to this reservation nine times out of ten they're going to do it and even if they don't what I would do then is I would go to the front desk when I check in and do the same thing and say, you know, we leave out of here because you'll get a different response depending on the person sometimes. [00:31:01.500] - Kim Tate I've had that with conference rates and sometimes they will still treat me like, you know a member so I sometimes feel counted as a stay right even if you don't get points and sometimes it's like a number like you have X number stays than you qualify for something. [00:31:13.200] - Nate Ritter That's one of the biggest tips that I give to people and it seems so mundane because you like to talk to people I know that's right, but it's it seems too good to have the most perks out of all the things that that we do in terms of travel hacking and all that is talking to the front desk folks and just being super nice and and it's amazing what happens when you're just nice to people that should have said it's sad that maybe that's a rarity. [00:31:44.300] - Tamara Gruber But yeah, so you mentioned that you know that typically this would be a club membership that you're paying into and I know a lot of when it comes to flights a lot of those are still like paid subscriptions and things to access certain deals. So is there a payment or is there a membership fee for using room steals or it's just you login and membership in quotes is free. [00:32:07.400] - Nate Ritter There is a fee. The way that we decided to do this to make this more transparent and more available to people kind of one of our internal motto is we want to enable you to save more so that you can travel more and so the idea here is that we want to show you what the wholesale rate is. So that's free. So when you sign into room steals you and then we have a Chrome extension that you can use in so as you browse around like booking.com Expedia or something like that, it will show you the rate the wholesale rate that's available. [00:32:43.900] - Nate Ritter And so if that rate makes sense if it's cheaper than what the rate is that you're going to see I'm at booking.com. For instance. Then you can click on on on a extension and come over to Room Steals to book in the part where we make our money. So we make no money on the transaction. [00:33:01.400] - Nate Ritter So if so no money on on commissions no money on margins for each transaction that comes to your system. So we honestly don't care whether you booked it through us or whether we find you another rate somewhere else and we show that to you our goal is to make sure that you see the cheapest rate possible. So we make no money on each transaction book. So to be able to enable us to do that. We do have kind of a subscription model. So it's an annual fee right now. [00:33:27.900] - Nate Ritter It's $59 and will probably be up in that actually in the next month or so and we will by the way grandfather everybody into Old pricing. We have some people who are still on a dollar 99 a month. But yeah, we kind of gate keep it by making an annual fee. So it's kind of like a Costco sort of thing. Like we keep the commission's really low and not on Frost we didn't eat nothing but we make our money on the subscription. So the idea here is if you see a rate that covers that subscription, which many, most of our members are paying members. do, you book it and you're likely covered completely and as an example, I'm just last week. We had a new member show up and they saved $500 off of think it was a two day or maybe 3-day stay so easily cover their they're $59 a year membership, you know, so and it's still way better than paying the retail price no matter what once you pay the annual membership now, it's like basically all you can eat from there on. [00:34:34.100] - Kim Tate So yeah, like you said, it is nice that you show the number in advance. So you can really see that's all I'm going to save more than $59. So it's a done deal. So are there we talked about the fact that it sounds like you can book on the on the sites and everything is there so there's no tricks then if you want to see secret deals in Hidden rooms, and you know, we've all had the the old fashioned Travelocity price. [00:35:01.300] - Kim Tate So, is there a this is it sounds like this is just like booking a room direct. You can choose your room configuration. Cuz for families that's huge. Like I'm not going to share a king bed with my daughter and my husband. [00:35:14.300] - Nate Ritter Yeah, you are search engine in the way that the rooms are displayed because we pull in from so many different sources. It's not as nice and neat as booking.com, I'll admit that but we are showing you is the cheapest rate at that hotel so might not be the exact configuration that you're looking for. [00:35:32.200] - Nate Ritter But that being said, you know at that point when we take you to 2 hour booking engine, you can easily compare and see what the differences are. It does say, this is a king with a couch or this is to Queens or whatever so that you can select your configuration the price that we show you is like I said is the cheapest at that hotel and it may not be the one that you're looking for. But you can definitely select your configuration. It might be a slightly different price but wholesale still should beat whatever the. [00:36:01.300] - Nate Ritter Retailcomm public version is and isn't always happen that way and I'll be the first to admit that but the bookings that we have gotten they've been quite significant and we see most of our members when they booked something with us. They're saving on average of 25% over across the entire year they're booking and that's just because some people find insane rates and some people find you no one's in there just booking embittered the same as it celebrates, but on average is 25% So I think that it seems when I've used the service myself that I'm able to find Kings and double queens and those kinds of things without too much problem in there still much cheaper than I would find on any of the other sites. [00:36:40.300] - Tamara Gruber So it sounds like you see maybe the lowest in the extension, but then once you click over to actually book, then you can still get that actual the room the specific room and configuration that you're looking for. [00:36:51.700] - Nate Ritter Yes, and yes and many times. I has the same verbage even in the description so you can look at the the verbage it says, you know, here's the thing includes breakfast or doesn't include breakfast and you can see the same verbage on the on booking.com or whatever service you looking at. [00:37:08.000] - Tamara Gruber So when it comes to family travel, you know, we time to travel more on the weekends school breaks summer all of that kind of stuff. Is there a better time that you're seeing better deals, like is it with this typically be more of like a corporate and then therefore you're seeing better deals on the weekend or is it just kind of like everything where it depends on kind of more of the location of the hotel? [00:37:30.400] - Nate Ritter Yeah, it really depends on all kinds of factors. So as you your list has been no hotels and especially the bigger brands have a person who is dedicated to be to find out how they can manipulate prices to get the maximum dollars at total dollars out of whether it is occupancy or the rate itself. And so they're always manipulating that price over time depending on what they see. So if the weather is going to be great for some. Of time or there's a golf tournament in town or something like that. [00:38:00.600] - Nate Ritter They're going to change the rates according to what they see in in their Marketplace. And so the hotel rates, do the same thing, they fluctuate as well. And so the only thing I could say pretty definitively is if there is a Citywide event. So let's say for instance a Formula One event or something like that in your city or something that's going to take up the entire city. There's it's very unlikely. There will be any wholesale rates available at that point just because it's really if you think about Supply. [00:38:30.300] - Nate Ritter They're not going to have that I can give you any wholesale rates if they're occupancy is quite high already. And so that's their that this person is at old job is to maximize that that amount the whole wholesale rates show up when there's a bit of a lull in in the marketplace. It's really there for tour operators or for other people to package together groups of travel packages in so that that was its original purpose for the wholesale rates. And so so when that happens when there's availability in the market for people to come in and be tourists, then they're going to the rear to see more wholesale rates available when there's less capacity and available and in the city is bought up in terms of hotels or travel traveling tourist, you get to see the last not to say that it's completely unheard of in a high season at all since I've seen in both Las Vegas and in Portugal I heard I've seen these rates where the penthouse suite switch by no means will I ever be able to afford? Otherwise we're going for $3,000 a night and I saw them for going for $300 a night and that's what the difference is an end. If you looked on Expedia or any of these other sites, you will see them at $3,000 because they're selling that same price that they're buying it at 300 and that's that's where we come in. That's that's actually one of the examples that I used because it was so irritating me to see that that's why I built the service at the meeting. [00:40:06.800] - Nate Ritter But again, it's it's really depending upon what the market kind of looks like in the local Geographic market and what that revenue managers doing. [00:40:15.900] - Tamara Gruber It is good to think about though. I think back to quite a few years ago when we were traveling to New York and I found like such better rates in lower Manhattan because it's more in a business district on the weekends, you know, if you can kind of think about like well hey, where would they may be be, you know offering maybe where would capacity be lower that they might need to offer these rates, you know, and so maybe think about that even locationwise or timing-wise. [00:40:41.800] - Kim Tate I think families they need to keep in mind like if you're wanting to go on vacation that weekend cuz your kids are out of school or whatever. There's probably a large majority of people who have that same idea to wrap up. We got your good deal about the rooms deals in wholesale. [00:40:58.900] - Kim Tate You've also given us the tip of you know, talking to the hotel directly and seeing what you can you know yet maybe as a little perk or upgrades but do you have any other final tips that families are people Travelers can use on you know deals for saving money on hotels that you want to share with our listeners. [00:41:15.600] - Nate Ritter Yeah, I think the the biggest tip again goes back to you. I think normally it's just being flexible with any kind of Point hacking any kind of travel hacking that you're doing really thought flexibility is about as I mentioned talking to the front desk and then of course, you know, you've done these shows in the past on credit card points in miles and I think that's that's how we've been able to travel as much as we have. So the new services like these home exchange services are something to keep tabs on outside of that. [00:41:43.300] - Nate Ritter It's really about making sure that you have access to those wholesale rates because they can be amazing at times but I think that pretty well sums up our kind of a 8:20 like what we really look for when were when were traveling is a family and then how we kind of do our travel hacking with those kind of of points of focus. [00:42:02.300] - Tamara Gruber Well you have definitely given me something to think about. I'm actually still a little fixated on the penthouse suite and because we haven't traveled in so long I'm all right now about like give me the perks like I want to I want be luxury where is when I'm traveling all the time. I'm like, I just want a place to stay. I want to see things and do things, you know, but right now it's just like I just want to be in a nice hotel and you know be treated like give me those chocolates, right? [00:42:36.300] - Tamara Gruber But yeah, so thanks a lot for your tips one question that we ask all of our guests and that is what do you wear when you travel do you have any favorite brands that you enjoy?. [00:42:47.500] - Nate Ritter Well, I'm a jeans and t-shirt or hoodie kind of guy. So literally, that's all I prefer to wear while traveling. I don't really have anything different but the most comfortable thing that I can bring it to us about any weather in without too much trouble. I do love my backpack. I will say that I try not to pack any more than I can fit in there and it's by Nomatic and I want to try out and then all as well, but they they seem to have similar to crossover in terms of how how great the kind of community loves each of them. [00:43:15.700] - Nate Ritter But I will I do when I can I throw this back at you. I do actually have a question. I wish I had a comfy shoe to wear and I have not really spent much on shoes. But when I'm traveling if I'm like, that's the one thing that I wish I I wish I would wish I would spend on tonight. I don't even know where would you look for any suggestions? [00:43:33.600] - Tamara Gruber You know, we always ask and we tend to interview more women than men and so many of the women will answer about the shoes. And then as you say that I'm thinking like, you know, my husband was complaining about his feet when were walking around a lot? And so maybe he's not thinking it as much I don't know. I mean, I don't pay a lot of attention to guy shoes, but I think like Skechers in general like, you know, very comfortable and so they have a lot of options for guys too. And they're not necessarily did on all look like basic sneaker, you know, like some of them have some style to them. [00:44:07.500] - Kim Tate I was thinking of we did talk to the one lady that was talking about Oofos that are made for runners and offer good support, and I know you love Taos too Tamara. [00:44:20.900] - Kim Tate Yeah, and I think they have a male line as well, but they have really good arch support knee and said of the Taos shoes might be something to look at and we did just one of the men we we talked to recently actually went on about a shoes didn't he had a couple different things. I feel like somebody we talked to recently. [00:44:39.400] - Kim Tate Talk about shoes, but now I can't I'm blanking on it. But we're going to go to look that up. You'll have to look it up and get back to you Nate. But a couple that you might look at is that Oofos or the Taos. But I might be a good hiking like I think Merrill most most people on our show always rave about Merrill and they make a lot of different styles. [00:45:20.000] - Kim Tate Why don't you let our listeners know where they can find you online? If you share your travels anywhere and then also kind of tell them about how they can get signed up for room steals. If they want to look for some of those wholesale hotel rates. [00:45:34.400] - Nate Ritter So I can be found in a pretty active on Twitter. So Nate Ritter and n a t e r i t t e r and then we first have RoomSteals on Twitter and then RoomSteals.com for the website there. [00:45:49.600] - Nate Ritter And then I'd love to give your listeners a coupon code for RoomSteals. So this would be for the annual fee. So when you go to room steals.com or you download the extension sign-in, you can still see all the pricing for free, but when you're ready to actually book that hotel and need to become a member and pay the annual we have a coupon code with just use the all one word vacation mavens and that coupon code will give you 20% off of that subscription so that Annual fees so when you actually book your hotel, you'll get even better the price at that point. [00:46:25.800] - Tamara Gruber Thank you, that's awesome. I'm sure our listeners will be jumping on that.I think can be very useful to families and we look forward to checking it out both. [00:46:48.400] - Tamara Gruber We are back and I just wanted to give a quick shout-out to one of our listeners who I know is a long time listener. So Eliza, I just want to say thank you so much because when we put out our Instagram post about our fifth anniversary a couple of weeks ago, she let us know that she's listen to every single episode which I think is amazing and we definitely appreciate and if there is anyone else out there that it can make that same claim. Please let us know. [00:47:13.700] - Tamara Gruber We're happy to give you a shout out and thanks to everyone that you gave us a congratulations and your supported us throughout the years [00:47:21.300] - Kim Tate A huge thank you. We have loved because you guys so when you tell us that you like us and that you're listening to us that makes us feel so happy. So thanks for tuning in and speaking of you can join us again in 2 weeks. We are going to be talking all about Florida hotels which are having a boom year unlike most of the travel industry. [00:47:41.400] - Tamara Gruber So join us then talk to you soon.

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184 Wine Tasting Tips and Wine Travel

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 2, 2021 41:07

It is the five year anniversary of the Vacation Mavens podcast! To celebrate, we are talking about one of our favorite topics -- wine (and travel)! This week we are joined by Mary Jo Mazanares, from Traveling with MJ, to talk about how to go wine tasting and some of our favorite wine regions. About Mary Jo Mazanares Mary Jo is an avid traveler with over 16 years of digital publishing experience. She publishes at Traveling with MJ with a focus on value luxury travel, luxury for real people, not celebrities, and is currently working on Secret Seattle, to be published by Reedy Press in 2021. She and her husband Tony own Leeward Media, LLC, and publish six travel and lifestyle sites. You can follow Mary Jo at @travelingwithmj on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Wine Tasting and Wine Travel Tips If you are new to wine tasting, it helps to start with smaller wineries where you will get more personalized service because they aren't as busy rushing around and serving other customers. Don't be afraid to tell the pourer that you are a newbie and let them help you choose which wines to try. They will often ask some questions about what you like and then get feedback on what you taste to go on from there. When doing virtual wine tastings, you also want to keep it to a small group where you can have a more intimate conversation. See more about MJ's virtual wine tastings with Washington wines or get ideas for other virtual wine tastings. When going wine tasting for a day, make sure you either hire a driver or set a designated driver. If you are going to be just sipping and tasting, not drinking the full pour, you can probably get to three to four wineries a day. However, if you really want to leave yourself time to take a tour or really engage with the staff, two to three might be a better number. If you are tasting with someone else, you may be able to share a pour. Don't be afraid to use the dump bucket for wines you don't enjoy or if you just don't want to drink too much. If you drink a full tasting pour each time, by the end the wines might blend together and you may have a harder time differentiating between them and identifying what you enjoy. In some regions like Walla Walla, the downtown have a number of tasting rooms within walking distance to each other, making it easier to visit a few without needing a designated driver. You can also find this in Napa, Carmel, Sonoma, and Santa Rosa. Be sure to plan who and when you are going to eat during your wine tasting day. Either make a lunch reservation or plan a wine and food pairing tasting. Many wineries will also sell charcuterie boards that you can enjoy with your tasting or after. Three big things to consider when doing a tasting are how does the wine look? How does it smell? And how does it taste? For looks -- swirl the wine, hold it up to the light, see how it clings to the side of the glass, is it dark/light/opaque? For smell, put your nose in the glass and breathe in. Can you pick up any particular aromas? Does it change over time or after you swirl? For taste - take a small sip and see how it feels on your tongue and your palate. Give some time to see what flavors might linger or where it hits you in your mouth. Taste again after a few minutes to see if it has changed at all. To learn a bit more, you can purchase a wine wheel (this is an affiliate link. If you click and make a purchase, we may receive a small commission.) Just remember that wine tasting and wine preference is a personal thing and there is no "best wine" just the best wine for you. Favorite wine regions: In Europe, MJ is a fan of Tuscany and sangiovese-based wines In Northern California, MJ loves downtown Napa Her home state of Washington is MJ's favorite, especially Walla Walla If you are planning a trip to Tuscany, Tamara had a terrific wine tour with Tuscan Organic Tours. It is nice to know what varietals wine regions are known for and plan a trip based on wines that you enjoy. It will also help to have that knowledge before you do tastings. Oregon is well-known for Pinot Noir. Wineries in the south tend to specialize in sweeter wines or whites. The Finger Lakes region in New York is known for Dry Reislings. The South of France, including Languedoc and Provence, are known for rosé, among others. Don't be afraid to try something new when you are traveling, especially if that is the dominant varietal in the region. It can be very different at the source from what you may have had at home. When you are traveling, you can't always ship home. Some wineries are limited to certain states where they can ship and some countries, like France, charge so much that it just isn't worthwhile. So you may want to leave some space in your luggage to wrap up a couple of bottles and bring them home that way. Keep in mind that your tastes will change over time. It is a journey and the object is to enjoy it along the way. Just be willing to experiment. Wine tastings can range from free to $30 per tasting, depending on the region and the winery. Typically if you buy a bottle or a certain dollar amount, your wine tasting fee will be credited. If you ask questions, show interest, and build a relationship with the pourer, they are likely to share some wines that aren't typically on the tasting menu because they see true interest. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.120] - Kim Tate Cheers to five years. Today, we're talking about wine. [00:00:16.100] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We 3Travel [00:00:31.100] - Kim Tate Tamara. Happy Anniversary podcast partner. Woohoo! Five years we've been doing this together. We're so lucky. [00:00:39.530] - Tamara Gruber We're so lucky that we found each other and that we've, you know, managed to pull this off for five years. And we've developed such a special friendship through it. And I'm so glad I'm very thankful for you. I'm thankful for our podcast listeners. It's just been a great experience. [00:00:54.050] - Kim Tate I agree. I think it's funny because our podcast, if any of you, our fellow podcasters, you'll know it's you know, we'll be very upfront, there's not a lot of money in podcasting. But Tamara and I always say there's just something about getting to chat with your best friend weekly and have people listen to you and get to know you. And, you know, when you guys email us or message us on Facebook or on Instagram, it means so much to us. [00:01:17.810] - Kim Tate It makes us happy. We'll take screenshot and share it with people. And it's really good. So it's nice that we've created kind of a little community here and it means a lot to us. [00:01:26.780] - Tamara Gruber And can you just imagine this last year? I know we're doing fewer episodes a month. But if I didn't have you to reach out and talk to, it would have been even worse this past year. [00:01:37.400] - Kim Tate Agreed. It's great. I mean, technology is so awesome that even though we've been separated by a country, we're still going strong. [00:01:45.020] - Kim Tate We just need to get back to our trips because we've had some pretty epic trips. And I know today we are going to be talking all about winetasting, kind of some tips and then also a few destinations. But, you know, I thought it'd be good time before we get talking to Mary Jo all about some of our, you know, memorable trips together, maybe to celebrate our five years. I'm sure a lot of our longtime listeners will have heard of most of these, but might be kind of fun. Do you have any trips that stand out to you? [00:02:13.310] - Tamara Gruber Well, you know, the nice thing is that all of them have involved some wine. But, you know, I love when we go wine tasting together because while we may have very different opinions or tastes, I should say in some things like you love coffee and I hate the smell of it, you know, you're an early riser and I'm a late riser. But like we we seem to hit the similar notes when it comes to wine. [00:02:35.510] - Tamara Gruber I'm so glad that we're both like, no, no, we want the dry. We don't want the sweet. No, we don't want to oaky Chardonnay. Like, there have been things like that. [00:02:43.430] - Tamara Gruber And I've always been very impressed by your wine knowledge when we do go to tastings and it always makes for like a nice conversation with whoever's pouring or if we get to talk to the winemaker. And so you're very good travel partner when it comes to visiting wineries. [00:02:58.520] - Kim Tate Oh, that's so nice. I have actually the same feeling about my experience with you because I feel like we're kind of on the same level of awareness and we both enjoy the same things. And so I agree. I think that's funny. I just had this funny trip memory pop up and this will show people like how much we love wine and being like with each other. We took a trip to Clearwater, Florida for a conference and Tamara got in earlier than me and I was letting her know that I was like in the Uber almost at the airport or I mean, almost at the hotel. And she ran out to some like I don't even remember where you went. [00:03:32.750] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, a grocery store. [00:03:34.400] - Kim Tate Yeah. It was like she's like, I'm getting a bottle of wine. We need to chat. And so literally, I came in from, you know, the airplane and everything, and we popped open a wine and poured ourselves a glass and sat down. And it was an awesome start to just kind of a, you know, a work trip with your best friend is pretty awesome. [00:03:51.050] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've tasted wine in Texas. Remember Texas. [00:03:57.830] - Kim Tate Grapevine. Right. That's I mean, literally called Grapevine for a reason. [00:04:02.300] - Tamara Gruber It was funny because I remember being I don't know if we were together at this part of the trip, but I was at one place where we're doing a tasting and everyone got super excited about, like the chocolate tasting red wine, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, that's OK. [00:04:18.380] - Kim Tate It is funny about the South because that was that experience that we had in New Mexico with El Paso as well. Was it was what was it like? Chili flavored that was really bad. [00:04:29.330] - Tamara Gruber And that was the one where I'm like, OK, I could have a glass of this or like a half a glass. But I'm not like going to have more than one. I was actually just talking to some friends recently and I had said, like, clearly I will admit that I'm not usually a person to have one glass. [00:04:47.470] - Tamara Gruber And so therefore if I'm going to have more than one glass, it's going to have to be something that I want more than one glass of, because we have this winery that's kind of down the road from us. And I made the mistake of going there when I first moved in here, not knowing that it was all like fruit wine and we were the only ones in there tasting. So I felt really bad to just like walk out that. [00:05:06.950] - Kim Tate Yikes. Yeah. I'm not into the flavored wines. Like the grapes have enough.Well I guess they flavor, I mean there are flavored wines, people add stuff [00:05:15.920] - Tamara Gruber But I do like that New Mexico one though because it was the we had a chance to talk to the wine maker, the wine he was from Chile. And so he kind of said like, look, this is not like I also make these like big Chilean reds. But I also I do this to satisfy, like, you know, a slice of our audience, like he knows where he is and what people are looking for. But then he also kind of did some of the wines that he loved, too. [00:05:41.540] - Kim Tate Yeah, well, and I was also remembering when we were in Santa Rosa and we got to do I love the wine tastings that go along with like food or snacks with it. And I think that's really fun. And I know Paul and I did one of those in Northern California, I guess it was more close to central California as we were leaving the redwoods once. And it's kind of fun to see how much it can really change the flavor of stuff. So, yeah, it was a fun experience with you. [00:06:05.300] - Tamara Gruber Glenn I did one of those in Mondavi once and it was, you know, completely different, you know, when he's like, OK, you know, have a bite of this now taste it again. We're like, whoa, totally different. Although I did learn when we went to where was it, Kendall Jackson together the year. You're not quite as into cheese as I am. [00:06:23.390] - Kim Tate Yeah, no, I'm not a cheese person and I shouldn't be really a dessert person either. [00:06:27.580] - Tamara Gruber Yeah and I have lactose issues, but I still love them. [00:06:31.310] - Kim Tate But yeah, I don't. [00:06:32.770] - Tamara Gruber What is wrong with, you know, cheese and dessert, this is why you stay healthy. [00:06:36.860] - Kim Tate Yeah. I don't know, I yeah. I'd much rather eat a bunch of vegetables or nuts [00:06:41.630] - Tamara Gruber But yeah I'm like bring me the fried stuff in the cheese. [00:06:45.320] - Kim Tate There's some fried stuff I like but yeah. So I think you know, some of those memories are so awesome. I'm excited that we've had five years of experiences together [00:06:54.920] - Tamara Gruber So we'll have to talk to Mary Jo and get some ideas and where we're winetasting next. Maybe it's up by you. [00:07:01.700] - Kim Tate I definitely think. Yeah, we definitely need to. Washington wine tasting. I also would love to do the Willamette Valley in Oregon. I've never really spent time there and I think we're due for a trip there. But I know somewhere I'm definitely due for a trip with you. And that is Italy, because you know a lot about Italian wine and I know very little. So and I also would love to go get a champagne tasting and learn more about champagne. So I have some international wine tasting trips I need to do with you. [00:07:29.330] - Tamara Gruber Well, let's talk to Mary Jo all about wine tasting and hopefully we can inspire some of our listeners to plan their next trip. [00:07:36.350] - Tamara Gruber Sounds great. [00:07:45.930] - Tamara Gruber So this week, we're here with Mary Jo Manzanares, and she is an avid traveler with over 16 years of digital publishing experience. You can see her traveling with M.J. where she focuses on value luxury travel, which is luxury for real people, not celebrities, and is currently working on Secret Seattle, which is going to be published by Readers Press in 2021. Congratulations on that. And she actually publishes six different travel and lifestyle sites. So welcome, Mary Jo. [00:08:13.380] - Mary Jo Mazanares Welcome. I'm so glad to be here. [00:08:16.050] - Tamara Gruber Well, we are always happy to talk about wine because we probably have been enjoying a little too much of it in the last year. But it's nice when you cannot just, you know, knock it down in, you know, but you're actually doing it with a purpose. And that's one of the things I always love about wine tasting when we are traveling. And even some of the virtual things that are available now is to to really sit back and enjoy the experience. [00:08:40.830] - Tamara Gruber And I know that you've actually hosted a few virtual wine tastings over the last year. And so we thought it'd be nice to talk to you. [00:08:49.010] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, it's always nice to talk wine with friends. [00:08:51.680] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I wish we were drinking it right now, but it's a little bit early, is a little early for you. But before we get into it all, I have to ask, do you have a favorite varietal? [00:09:01.850] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, OK, so this is like asking a parent to choose their favorite child and every winemaker will tell you their favorite is the one that's currently in their glass. So with those caveats in mind, you know, I'm a fan of the big reds, so I lean toward the the cabs and the merlots that are big and juicy. And when you take that first sip, they just explode in your mouth. [00:09:27.320] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I like those too. Sometimes I'm just like, really in the mood for, like, I'm all back or something, actually. [00:09:32.000] - Mary Jo Mazanares With a good steak. [00:09:33.110] - Tamara Gruber Yes, of course. [00:09:35.420] - Kim Tate Sounds amazing. So we thought we would kind of talk to you and just, you know, winetasting is such a huge part for Tamara and I when we travel. We love it. And neither of us have amazing you know, we don't have credentials, we're not experts, but we've come to realize that you can enjoy wine even if you aren't an expert. So what do you think for people who are kind of considering wine tasting or wine region or visiting wineries near them? [00:10:01.300] - Kim Tate What tips do you have when they choose, like what wineries to go into or try a tasting at? [00:10:07.750] - Mary Jo Mazanares I think it's really easy to start with smaller wineries. It just feels a little bit less intimidating. And you really have that direct connection with whoever happens to be running the tasting room. Sometimes it's the winemaker or a family member of the winemaker. [00:10:25.120] - Mary Jo Mazanares And just there's nothing wrong with saying I'm a newbie at this. I don't know what I like. I don't know what I don't like. And they are generally thrilled to help you with that path of discovery. [00:10:37.810] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I have found that sometimes people gravitate towards like the name brands. And whenever you go into those, it's like a factory in there. You know, it's very busy. The pourers don't have time to really spend with you. It's kind of really here's our five. You know, here's my little recitation of what the description is. But when you go into those smaller ones, I end up like spending a lot of time and usually a lot of money, but it's so fun. [00:11:06.040] - Tamara Gruber And those are the ones where, you know, if you really enjoy something, they're always like, you know, if you like that, let me show you this, too. And it gets you know, it just turns into a whole experience. [00:11:15.760] - Mary Jo Mazanares And it's it's not it's a journey, not a destination. And sometimes that means finding that you don't like a whole bunch of stuff, a whole bunch of flavors that just don't suit you. And then you find the one that you just love. [00:11:31.630] - Mary Jo Mazanares And the one thing I found visiting small wineries is when you meet the winemaker or the family and there's the winery, dog or cat, there's something about falling in love with the experience that I think has a direct influence on how you feel about the wine. [00:11:47.590] - Kim Tate Oh, 100 percent absolutely agree. [00:11:50.140] - Kim Tate I think you gave a great tip about look for those smaller wineries, because I you know, it's the same thing I've had some of the best experiences have been when either I'm almost all alone in there or, you know, there's one person pouring for when people come in and it's just it feels more focused on you versus the larger ones that are going to attract a lot of people. You know, like you said Tamara, it's almost like you're on an assembly line and you got them running and they're like, OK, which one are you at? [00:12:17.920] - Kim Tate And they don't even remember where your tasting is at and they're just pouring you another one. And so I think I think that's a good tip because like you said, you can kind of end up in this relationship and really discover things you wouldn't have considered before. And I think when people are starting out with wine tasting, that's one of the, you know, most, I guess, joyous parts of it is when you discover a varietal or you discover something and you can actually put words to it and go, oh, yeah, OK, that's what I like. That's what I don't like. And I think that's cool. [00:12:47.710] - Mary Jo Mazanares And I think when you visit a smaller winery, or especially one that's not really busy, it's it is about a relationship, as you said, and you have that time to actually enjoy and learn and taste. And that's just all part of the experience. Yeah. [00:13:04.930] - Tamara Gruber And, you know, I'm just kind of thinking and transitioning of the to the virtual world that some of us are in now. And I think it goes hand in hand, like I joined the virtual wine tasting. I think it was like through wine enthusiast. And, you know, of course, there's thousands of people. You're just listening in. You're not actually interacting. And it was more about like, let's use this celebrity name to try to get a lot of attention. And sell a lot of wine. And it wasn't as much about what are we really tasting. You know, it was more about like, let's just impress you with this, like, name and back story. So I think it must go hand in hand, like when you're doing the virtual tastings where you can get a little bit more of an intimate experience. [00:13:48.490] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, and I've kept my virtual tasting small. I don't want more than ten people because that does simulate if you were actually at the winery and you have direct interaction with the winemaker to ask questions and get information. So I've really enjoyed keeping it far more intimate than that because that's the experience I prefer. Now, that's not for everyone. I get it. But I really do prefer small, intimate group when I'm enjoying my wine. [00:14:16.150] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think the virtual wine tastings have become, you know, kind of a really neat thing that has evolved because of, ah, you know, what am I trying to say because of the pandemic, because it wasn't as popular then. But some of these wineries have done amazing things where, you know, you can order the wine, you know. Three bottles, six bottles or whatever, and they'll ship it to you and you, you know, sit down one night and you can taste it with the winemaker. [00:14:42.840] - Kim Tate And again, like you said, Tamara, the smaller wineries, sometimes you're almost one on one with the winemaker, and it's really fun. So I highly recommend people who are interested to look into that. And it's a great way to support an economy, you know, that's definitely struggling, especially Mary Jo. You and I know on the West Coast, our wineries are really, you know, they need our help as much as possible. So I think it's a great way for people to buy and help them out. I mean, I think people need to realize that there are a lot of great virtual opportunities. [00:15:13.470] - Kim Tate But let's start and consider that in the future we are all able to travel again and we are going to be going on a wine tasting trip. [00:15:21.810] - Kim Tate Why don't you start with some tips like how many wineries should you plan to visit a day? Because, yeah, you don't always consider that the big question. [00:15:31.320] - Mary Jo Mazanares And first of all, I think any time you talk about alcohol, you have to make really clear that, you know, don't drink and drive, have a designated driver, all of those kind of things, because that's just part of the prudence of wine tasting. [00:15:47.340] - Mary Jo Mazanares I usually can do three, sometimes four. [00:15:52.170] - Mary Jo Mazanares However I taste, I don't drink. And I think that you need to decide if you're going to taste, which really means, you know, taking a few sips of a variety of wines or if you're going to actually enjoy a full pour for my husband and I, you know, if we will, one full pour of a taste is more than enough for both of us to decide if we like it or not. [00:16:16.380] - Mary Jo Mazanares Plus dump in the bucket so so we can do three, four if they're if we really have to. But any more than that, it just all blurs together. And we don't know what we've tasted and what we'd like to what we didn't like. [00:16:32.230] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I agree. We've sometimes done that where it's like, you know, OK, this one I think I really want to taste my own if we have different opinions. But other times we will sometimes split a tasting flight and and do it that way, although I will say, you know, a good plug so that you're both enjoying it and you can do whatever you like is he could hire a driver? Definitely. I mean, we've done some wine tours, actually. [00:16:54.220] - Tamara Gruber We did a wine tour in France and one in Italy. And it was just amazing. You know, it's just so nice to have it all taken care of for you because they're also making the appointments and setting everything up in advance for you. [00:17:06.120] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, you know that you you want to totally indulge and drink a full pour of several at several locations, just find some that are close together and easily walkable from one to another. If you're in an urban setting, you can like downtown Walla Walla. You can easily walk from tasting room to tasting room. And you don't need to worry about driving if you're going someplace farther, farther out than you do need to think about either an Uber or a car and driver for the whole time. [00:17:34.590] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, I like that idea that some of the towns, you know, we'll have tasting rooms. So some of the times the wineries will have their own tasting room at the vineyard. But like in town, they'll have a little tasting room. And I know, like in Carmel we did that we had like a little wine passport and we just kind of walked around town. And that was it was great. But sometimes I definitely love that winery experience. [00:17:54.360] - Mary Jo Mazanares And downtown Napa, it has the same thing. You can taste a number of the tasting rooms downtown rather than drive out to the wineries, which are so spread apart. [00:18:04.200] - Kim Tate Yeah, and I think another thing to consider is food during that time. And, you know, if they offer any charcuterie boards and things on that line, it's always good to make sure. Do you balance a little bit of food with the drinking? [00:18:16.140] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Like you can schedule a lunch or you can do a you know, like you said, sign up for a food and wine pairing kind of tasting or cheese and wine. [00:18:25.140] - Kim Tate Like you and I did when we were in Sonoma. I was remembering that when we went they had a big Mary-Jo, they had a big festival. What was that? It was like the Winemaker's Awards. I can't remember the name of it now in Santa Rosa. And Tamara and I, it was nice, you know, to Uber from her hotel over. [00:18:42.300] - Kim Tate And while we we certainly drank a lot that night and they had an Uber back. [00:18:49.020] - Tamara Gruber Not as much as some of those, not as much as some of the people. [00:18:51.480] - Kim Tate It was funny. I mean, people watching at that event was quite you know, you walked in and everything seemed normal, but by, you know, two hours in, it was quite the show. [00:18:59.880] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Once I saw some some shoving going on, I'm like, yeah, it's time to go. [00:19:05.370] - Tamara Gruber Well, I mean, that's kind of covers, you know, some things to think about when you're planning a, you know, planning your day, when you're planning a wine tasting day. But when you're actually, you know, sitting down or standing up to taste your wine, do you have any tips or someone like what should they look at? What is your method for tasting wine? You know, what should they be looking for in terms of like taste or appearance or, you know, just without getting too fancy? But I think a little bit of understanding, you know. [00:19:35.500] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, everyone will tell you that there are three things to consider when you're doing a tasting are, you know, what does it look like? What does it smell like? How does it taste? And that's way oversimplifying the whole science and art of wine tasting. [00:19:51.370] - Mary Jo Mazanares But I try to follow that at a novice to intermediate kind of level. [00:19:56.920] - Mary Jo Mazanares I mean, I look at what it looks in the glass. I swirl it. I put my nose deep into the glass and see what it smells like. What does that what does that do to my senses? [00:20:06.850] - Mary Jo Mazanares And then I sip and I have never been able to master that art of somehow breathing in and sipping and making that noise as you're tasting. I mean, I can't do that. [00:20:20.500] - Mary Jo Mazanares I give that up to the experts and the Soms who really know what they're doing. I just take a sip and see what that first sip feels like in my mouth and what my reaction to it is. And then I take my second sip to really see how it it lingers on the palate. [00:20:36.760] - Tamara Gruber You know, it's funny, my husband does that little gargle kind of thing. I'm like, I can gargle mouthwash without choking. So that's not going to happen. [00:20:45.400] - Tamara Gruber But I really like to do that, you know, nice, good sniff and like, see what I'm picking up then and then see like when you taste it, are you catching those same things, you know, are you tasting something different? And then it's really, truly amazing how much wine changes, you know, when it's had time to breathe or if you just had something else on your palate. Sometimes I love doing those tastings where it's like, OK, take a taste now, take a bite of this and taste it again. You're like, oh my gosh, it's a completely different thing. You know, it makes you realize, like, the differences there. [00:21:18.900] - Mary Jo Mazanares And we found that when we started doing some tastings and wanting to learn a little bit more about it, we purchased a wine wheel and I think we just got it from Amazon or something. And to help us identify what we were tasting. And the other thing we learned was there are some flavors I will never be able to recognize because I don't know what they are. [00:21:42.300] - Mary Jo Mazanares And some people just can't taste certain things and some people can. [00:21:46.770] - Mary Jo Mazanares I always pick up the leathery, earthy mushrooms, the smoky kind of flavors and wine, and my husband rarely notices those. [00:21:57.420] - Mary Jo Mazanares He picks up the dark cherries and the stone fruit. And those are just really sort of, you know, I don't even notice. So it's like, yeah, yeah, there they are. So very much it's a personal thing, which is why there's not really a best wine. It's just the best wine for you. [00:22:14.400] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's a good thing to consider. And I mean, I think people will learn that as they taste. And the more you do it, you'll soon start to see like, oh, you know, that's a that's a lighter in appearance. You know, maybe that's a pinot noir, you know, and OK, this is the color I'd expect from it versus OK, now they're pouring me a, you know, Malbec. And it's going to look very different. And and I think, like you said, it's fun, I mean, I love when I smell wine and then I taste it. I love those moments when it's not what I expect because I'll pick up, you know, a lot of that. Earthy, leathery, very. Yeah. Earthy tone in the smelling. And then I'll taste it. And it's so jammy on my tongue and I'm like, whoa, that was not what I was expecting at all, you know? So it's kind of funny how you can have those experiences. [00:22:59.250] - Tamara Gruber I always love, like the blind taste test, too, you know, when they do like the black glass or something. And and you need to to guess and I know some people are doing that with virtual wine tastings, too, but it adds like that fun element to it and almost like little competition element. You know who got it right? My husband, he's he loves wine. [00:23:16.110] - Tamara Gruber And he I think one of the first times he went to Napa, he was like, this is what I would like to do when I retire is like go work in one of these places. So he actually he has gotten is like level one WSET, but then he never had time to go pursue number two. And I was it sounds terrible, but he now that we've been home so much, I'm like, oh, if only you could have done it online. Like now you have all this time to do it because before he's always traveling and never able to, you know, go to the actual class. [00:23:47.430] - Tamara Gruber But he it's funny, he doesn't have the same palate that I do, not just in differences of taste, but he has a lot of trouble picking up on some of it. And I always pick on him. I tell him it's because he drinks so much coffee. It's like deaden his taste buds. But who knows? Like, people are like you said, they're just very different. [00:24:03.660] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, you can do a couple of levels of the WSET at home because I was looking into it thinking, well, you know, I've always wanted to do it, but with travel, I've never been able to make the commitment maybe I should do it for from home so it can be done. [00:24:20.160] - Tamara Gruber I'm going to have them look into it because, you know, it's it's been his dream. He's wanted to do it. And so we'll see. Maybe now would be a time to to get that next level. [00:24:28.770] - Kim Tate I have a friend who retired and she's a pourer in a local little winery here in Washington State. So she loves it. It's fun because she gets to say social and she works very part time hours and just enjoys it. [00:24:41.880] - Mary Jo Mazanares So, yeah, well, and it's not uncommon with family owned wineries that you'll have multiple generations working at the the winery, whether it's doing the book, serve the tasting room or or some of the consumer facing activities. So it's a multigenerational. [00:25:01.470] - Kim Tate Yeah, I think that's fun when you you sit down on some of those, like you said, the smaller wineries, and you find out like, oh, you're the winemaker. Oh, OK. [00:25:09.390] - Kim Tate Is it totally different than when it's just you're just a hired hand who's pouring and, you know, isn't as emotionally connected to the wines as a winemaker is. [00:25:20.610] - Kim Tate Well, we've talked about kind of some tips for what people should look for and taste and what you know, let's imagine that we're all ready to book a wine trip and we're all safe to travel again. Do you have some favorite wine regions that you just love traveling to? [00:25:37.430] - Mary Jo Mazanares Oh, now you're just going to be breaking my heart. [00:25:40.800] - Kim Tate No, I mean, we've got to come in again. We'll just, you know, pretend we're going to be imagining where we're booking our next trip. [00:25:48.990] - Mary Jo Mazanares Oh, well, I think I'll give three of my favorites. So I'm not offending too many people in Europe. I'm really a fan of Tuscany dominantly because I like the big super Tuscans Brunello Sangiovese is. [00:26:05.160] - Mary Jo Mazanares And that's just, you know, where to go to the source. And I just I just loved wine tasting there. And we always wind up shipping wine home. So, you know, a. It's also a very expensive trip, so in Europe, that would be one of my recommendations outside of Washington because my home state is obviously my favorite. I really like downtown Napa. And the reason is that you can stay close in, you can walk everywhere. [00:26:34.960] - Mary Jo Mazanares You don't need a car. It's easy to get to from a variety of airports, San Francisco, Oakland or Sacramento, the latter. I think it's the easiest to fly in. And you can really get a lot done both tasting and having fun without having to have a car and worry about driving. [00:26:53.550] - Mary Jo Mazanares And there's some great wines there and locally. Oh, it's hard to choose a favorite, but my favorite locally here in Washington would probably be Walla Walla. [00:27:03.570] - Mary Jo Mazanares The given that they have several different districts, you can really focus on a district without having to do too much driving and really get some great flavors plus there downtown. So if you stay close in to downtown, you don't have to drive everywhere. So those would be my three recommendations. [00:27:24.930] - Tamara Gruber Well, I'm going to give a little plug and a shout out to someone that we had a great time with when we were in Tuscany a couple of years ago, and that's Tuscan organic tours. So they focus on like small, organic, biodynamic type of wineries. [00:27:37.290] - Tamara Gruber And we worked with their owner, Giacomo, and it was like one of the best days of our lives. It was so, so wonderful. Like all the little like family run kind of wineries that we visited had an amazing lunch in a tiny village, you know, learned so much about kind of the local agritourism. And, yeah, it was fantastic. So if anyone is going to go to Tuscany, definitely check them out. [00:28:00.390] - Kim Tate I think one of the things, Mary Jo, that you mentioned that I think is good for people to realize, especially I mean, people who are not novices will know this, but for people who are kind of not as into it, but want to get into wine tasting, it's good to know that a lot of times regions definitely have certain varietals or certain wines that they're known for. [00:28:19.470] - Kim Tate And so if you know that you really like, you know, bold reds, then a Tuscany trip might make sense. [00:28:25.530] - Kim Tate And of course, Tuscany, I mean, they've got everything. But, you know, you might want to choose based on wines you really like, whereas, you know, Tamara and I, it's kind of funny to even mention this, but we were in El Paso and they drove us over the border. And do you even remember where that was to in New Mexico? Yeah, but I mean, I don't remember the winery. But anyways, they drove us over the border to New Mexico to do a wine tasting. [00:28:49.380] - Kim Tate And it was very you know, Tamara and I are not into sweet wines. And they were a lot of sweet whites. And part of the reason they said, you know, they're down south and people are really, you know, they're craving a kind of cold and quenching drink as opposed to, you know, if you live in the north, a big, big red isn't that big of a deal because you're not going to be in sweltering hot weather. [00:29:10.770] - Kim Tate So I think, you know, that's something to keep in mind when you're planning a trip or thinking of doing a trip that's going to do some wine tasting is figure out maybe what that region is known for. I mean, there are areas, of course, all over California and Washington state, even we've become quite, you know, known what used to say Oregon would be the home of Pinot Noir. But, you know, some regions definitely have a few varieties, but it's a good thing to keep in mind. [00:29:36.840] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, definitely. I mean, we you know, I'm thinking here on the Northeast, you know, in New York state, the Finger Lakes very well known for their dry Rieslings, like their German style dry Rieslings. And just thinking about when we were in the south of France, like the Languedoc in the Provence, very well known for their roses, you know. So definitely that's something good to keep in mind. [00:29:59.460] - Tamara Gruber And I find, like a lot of the newer regions that are still developing, you know, their vines are not as old. So, you know, the flavors are probably going to still continue to develop. But a lot of those regions tend to kind of have a sweet and a dry like tasting menu. [00:30:16.860] - Tamara Gruber Even I think they know that their audience is, you know, may be new to it as well. And so they're like, well, what do you like? And they kind of direct you one path or another. [00:30:26.430] - Mary Jo Mazanares The other thing that we found is that certain choices that we might avoid at home that we try on when we're traveling are totally different now and we're predominantly red wine drinkers. But at home, we would never go buy a bottle of Chablis. It is just not anything that would ever occur to us. [00:30:47.610] - Mary Jo Mazanares We were on a barge cruise in France and actually went to Chablis and visited the Chalbis' there. Totally different experience. Not at all. But we would find here at home, at the store. So, yeah, you have to be willing to to do a little bit of experimenting when you travel and and realize that things aren't necessarily the same when you're at the source. As when you're you're in your home region. [00:31:15.600] - Kim Tate That's such a good point. I was just going to quickly say, like Chardonnay, California chardonnays, I would normally run screaming from the brand before they put a California Chardonnay in front of me. But, you know, it's kind of fun because as they've evolved, you know, the tasting rooms have learned because some winemakers are like, OK, we want to reclaim Chardonnay for California. And they'll be like, no, you have to taste this. It's not your traditional California Chardonnay. [00:31:37.470] - Kim Tate And sure enough, they've you know, it's not as oaky and buttery. They put it in a steel barrel and stuff. So it's just kind of fun to, like you said, to be able to do a tasting because it can you wouldn't want to spend, you know, thirty bucks on a bottle when you're trying something out. But yet, if you're at a tasting, you you know, it's a minor fee to just try something. [00:31:58.350] - Tamara Gruber That's one of the things I love and miss about travel, too, is that, like you said, Mary Jo, like you're in a particular region, they're known for something. And maybe it's something that you didn't think you like or maybe something you never heard of before and you would have never ordered because you had no idea what it was. [00:32:14.550] - Tamara Gruber But when we were in France, I fell in love with the Picpoul de Pinet. It's like a white wine that has like a lot of minerality in it, you know, because it comes from the coast and I just. Now, I'm, like, obsessed with it in the summer. I'm like, let's get oysters and Picpoul, you know, like it makes me so happy when I can find it at home. But it just brings back those travel memories to, you know, [00:32:35.510] - Mary Jo Mazanares You have to go back and send some home. [00:32:38.510] - Tamara Gruber You know, I will say when we talk about shipping home, when we were in Tuscany, it was very easy to ship home a lot of times if you bought enough, they included the shipping. They took care of the shipping. It was all good. It was not outlandish. [00:32:51.440] - Tamara Gruber When we were in France, the wine was so cheap, but you could not ship it home like nobody shipped. And if you tried to find, like, one that shipped, it was going to definitely cost as much as the wine. And so it really made it not worth it. [00:33:04.130] - Tamara Gruber It was so disappointing because we found so many that we fell in love with. So now, you know, we just made sure we brought back a list to our local wine shop and, you know, try to get them to get what they can. A lot of these smaller wineries just don't distribute that much, you know. So it's enjoy it while you're there. [00:33:19.880] - Mary Jo Mazanares I guess, to you know, when we find a small winery that we always figure we'll put a bottle in our our checked luggage coming home and we've never had a problem with breakage. Yeah. And then if there's someplace that'll ship, we try to take advantage of that. But you're right, some of the small places, they're just mom and pop operation, then you just have to grab it and be willing to carry it home. [00:33:43.380] - Tamara Gruber Yeah, exactly. Or carry it and drink it the next day. [00:33:50.210] - Kim Tate So do you have any final wine tasting tips that you could share with our listeners if they're considering, you know, getting into wine tasting and checking this whole, like, passion of ours? [00:34:01.790] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, yeah. I mean, it's it's a journey. And what I like 10 or 15 years ago is not what I like now. And that's because I've explored and learn new things and leave your preconceptions at the door. Don't bring them to the bottle and be willing to try something, even if you think you won't like it, because you know you might be right. It might be. Oh yeah, no, don't like this one. [00:34:27.620] - Mary Jo Mazanares Or you might be pleasantly surprised, but generally speaking, you will still learn something sometimes the path to finding your favorite wine or your favorite wine for the week or the month, it's just learning what you don't like. [00:34:41.600] - Mary Jo Mazanares So my biggest thing is just be willing to try to experiment and, you know, don't be a jerk. Don't try to impress people with everything that you know or think you know about wine. Just it's community. It's family. Just go and have a good time. [00:34:56.240] - Kim Tate That's a really great advice. Yeah, I was going to also mention for people who are novices with this, maybe we could also talk about really quickly pricing so people understand, like, you know, you buy a wine tasting, but normally that's credited if you buy a bottle. [00:35:11.750] - Kim Tate So what do you see as the average tastings that you're used to? [00:35:15.350] - Mary Jo Mazanares I mean, well, right now it's just all over the board. And I think that it changes based on the region in California. When I started wine tasting there, it was always free. And there may be a fee if you were getting a premier, you know, wine or something from, you know, the seller that was more spending. Now, pretty much every place is is fee based around Washington. You know, it's really hit or miss. [00:35:46.550] - Mary Jo Mazanares Some places are fee based. Some are not. Sometimes it's rebated against the wine if you buy it. Sometimes it's if you buy three bottles, they'll rebate it. It really is all over the board. [00:35:57.380] - Mary Jo Mazanares And during covid, I think the the differences in what people are doing is even greater. So just just check the wine winery or the wine tasting rooms website and hopefully they'll have have updated it. [00:36:12.380] - Mary Jo Mazanares But if I'm going to spend, you know, more than a nominal amount, it it has to be one superb tasting. I know there were a few tasting rooms in California that were charging twenty five dollars for a flight of three wines and yeah, that's that's it. [00:36:30.110] - Tamara Gruber It better be tasting real premium wines and that better be the reserves. [00:36:34.770] - Mary Jo Mazanares Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:36:37.100] - Mary Jo Mazanares Or they're their club wines or something. Limited edition. Absolutely agree. [00:36:41.970] - Kim Tate I would say I mean, most often I see five five dollar tastings is kind of pretty common, especially in Washington. But like you said, sometimes they're not even going to charge it and especially the smaller ones are just so happy to talk to you. And then you almost always end up finding something you like and walking out of there with a bottle. So it works well. [00:36:59.940] - Mary Jo Mazanares But I've what I've found is, is that sometimes when you're talking with them and they really know that you're interested and you want to make some purchases and you want to learn more, you know, they break out some stuff that maybe wasn't on the tasting list or they add something in because you're not there just to get that cheap drunk on. [00:37:18.420] - Mary Jo Mazanares You're actually there to learn about them and and to discover something. [00:37:22.590] - Tamara Gruber Exactly. [00:37:23.400] - Kim Tate I think that's a good tip. I think the good that, you know, pulling that out a little more is make a relationship with the person doing the tasting with you, you know, actually be interested, actually try and learn. And like you said, I think, you know, you might be surprised by some stuff that you might get a sneak peek at. [00:37:39.750] - Tamara Gruber Yeah. Ask them questions. You know, talk about how you you know, what you're thinking of the different ones. Like, definitely it's I've seen that happen many, many times because they just get excited and they're like, yeah. And you would like this one. [00:37:51.870] - Kim Tate Yeah. Great. Well, we will wrap up and ask you our question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, what do you wear when you travel? Do you have a favorite brand of clothing or shoes or anything? That's a go to travel gear item for you? [00:38:05.490] - Mary Jo Mazanares Well, I'm a comfort girl, so I want I want comfortable clothes. Nothing too short, too long, too tight. So I, I tend to pretty much stick with, you know, leggings and an oversize top. And I'm not particularly brand loyal in that regard. If I know that I'm going to be doing a lot of walking, you know, my feet are where I probably pay a little bit more attention. I really like Skechers. They give me lots of support. They have a variety of styles from a true trail or walking shoe to something that I can easily wear yet cobblestone streets in in Europe without standing out. So I'm all about the comfort. [00:38:48.660] - Tamara Gruber We are right there with you. [00:38:49.890] - Kim Tate Yeah, I was going to say Tamara and I are with you. [00:38:52.290] - Mary Jo Mazanares Good. Well, can you remind our listeners where they can find you online anywhere in lots of places, but maybe give a few. [00:38:57.930] - Mary Jo Mazanares I'll give you my primary sites. I met traveling with MJ that's traveling with MJ Dotcom. And you can find me at all the social channels at traveling with MJ as well. Great. Thank you so much. Oh, ladies, it's so good talking wine, and I just can't wait till we can get together and do this in person. [00:39:17.260] - Kim Tate I agree, especially, you know, now that we're we're semi local, so once we can socialize it, be easy for you and I to meet up and Woodinville or something and do some tastings, pick a winery. [00:39:26.860] - Mary Jo Mazanares I'll meet you there. Yeah, sounds good. [00:39:29.080] - Tamara Gruber You guys can face time, me in. Sounds good. Well, enjoy. Thank you so much. [00:39:39.010] - Tamara Gruber OK, so we are back and I just want to give a shout out to one of our listeners, Heather Hill. She sent in a message. We were talking about places to go this summer that were good for the outdoors. And she had suggested Michigan, which I've actually thought about a lot, because there's so many places there that you wouldn't really think that you're in the northern part of the country. [00:39:57.820] - Tamara Gruber You know, the water is so beautiful or there's sand dunes. You know, there's just so much there. So she had mentioned the national parks and Mackinac Island and Traverse City. So I may not be pronouncing that entirely correctly, but so that was, you know, a suggestion. And she also was looking for some episodes about other kinds of vacation rentals. So we're going to look into that as well. But I just want to say thank you, Heather, for writing in to us and for giving us the suggestion. [00:40:25.330] - Kim Tate Yeah, that's a great one. I know Michigan's really popular with, you know, like cabins and lake getaways and stuff. So it sounds like a good episode we should check out. [00:40:36.100] - Kim Tate Well, if you guys are joining again in two weeks because we're still on our biweekly schedule, we are going to be talking all about tips for finding hotel deals. And we've got something kind of cool interviewee. [00:40:48.340] Talk to you then.

new york amazon california texas europe washington france talk san francisco michigan italy german italian oregon south uber wine awards llc traveling chile taste falling in love new mexico west coast oakland congratulations sacramento limited mj northern california northeast washington state el paso chili chilean happy anniversary napa wineries provence days of our lives tuscany sonoma clearwater santa rosa chardonnay soms grapevine giacomo pinot noir winemaker wine tasting tuscan traverse city riesling mary jo malbec finger lakes willamette valley walla walla skechers mackinac island languedoc earthy wset woodinville chablis mondavi kendall jackson pinet wine travel heather hill california chardonnay full episode transcript picpoul vacation mavens announcer welcome mary jo manzanares stuffed suitcase

183 Tips for Saving for Travel

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 16, 2021 42:39

Budget is often cited as a top reason why families don't travel. Given how many of us are having our budgets squeezed right now, how can we start to save for a future trip? This week we talk to Danielle Desir from The Thought Card podcast and get some insights on turning your dream vacation into a reality. About Danielle Desir Danielle Desir, and she is an author, blogger, podcaster and Founder of The Thought Card, which is an award winning affordable travel and personal finance blog and podcast, empowering financially savvy travelers to make informed financial decisions, travel more, pay off debt and build wealth. She's also the co-producer of Millennial Wealth Builders, a three time grant funded audio docu series highlighting women of color building wealth. Follow Danielle on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. You can also subscribe to her podcast, The Thought Card or purchase either of her books: Affording Travel: Saving Strategies For Financially Savvy Travelers Planning Local Trips During A Pandemic Tips for How to Save for Travel Start with creating a monthly household budget so you are tracking how much you spend (and how much you can spend) in different categories Sit down at least quarterly and review your budget to see where you might need to adjust Create a wants versus needs list and see what you can take off of your wants list and do without Streaming services, gym memberships, ordering in using delivery services...these are common expenses that can be reduced Create a separate bank account that will be your travel fund, so you it isn't intermingled with money that you use to pay bills or daily spending Look for a bank account that you can open with little or no money to start, that doesn't charge a lot of fees or have a lot of restrictions, such as with Charles Schwab or Ally online banking See Danielle's tips on why you need multiple bank accounts Take a look at your top three expenses. Usually you can't reduce your housing expenses but can you reduce your transportation expenses (especially now when more of us are working from home) or food expenses (avoiding expensive delivery services, cooking more, etc.) Automate as much as possible using direct deposit, including contributions to your travel fund Danielle recommends the Digit app. It will automatically take a set amount out of your account everyday and put it into different funds that you set up for different expenses (such as travel) Have your family buy into your savings plan and name your bank accounts for that specific trip you are saving for to give everyone an incentive to save for that purpose Make sure you educate your kids about how to manage a budget and talk about spending decisions Think about what you value when you travel to determine where to spend your money. For example, do you prefer to have a better hotel experience or more money to spend on activities but you don't need a luxury air experience To find affordable airfare, Danielle recommends SecretFlying.com for finding cheap deals online Signing up for airfare deals emails lets you establish a baseline of flight costs to particular destinations, so you know whether or not you are getting a deal when you are ready to book, as well as helps you find those special deals that you can jump on when available TheFlightDeal.com and The Points Guy also offer daily flight deal emails. For hotels or package combination deals with flights, hotels and activities, Danielle recommends TravelZoo. TravelZoo is especially good when looking for deals to China. They have a Wednesday top 20 list Gate 1 Travel also has a weekly deal list every Monday and they do both independent travel and packaged group trips You can often find good deals even in expensive locations if you travel off season Lisbon and Mexico are very affordable international destinations Traveling locally is also a great way to travel now and you can save money on transportation If you are using an Airbnb or vrbo now, be sure to start looking about 4-5 months earlier. Fees and rates have increased recently because of demand and cleaning costs Local hotels, especially in towns/cities that don't usually cater to leisure travelers are very affordable right now For those traveling locally, be sure to check each state's travel and quarantine restrictions Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.120] - Kim Here's some tips for filling up your piggy bank for your next trip. [00:00:15.730] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.550] - Kim Tamara, we are fast forwarding through 2021. Some of us knew it wouldn't be a big reawakening. But I can't even believe that we're in February. So have you been thinking about travel? Do you see hope on the horizon? Are you making any plans yourself? [00:00:48.580] - Tamara Well, I'm definitely thinking about it. It's kind of all I can think about because otherwise I'm just so bored. You know, the other day was Groundhog Day and it feels like that. Like every day one of my friends had texted me and saying, like, how are you doing? And I'm like, you know, same old, same old. [00:01:05.290] - Tamara She's like, pretty much like work, work out, cook, eat, TV, sleep, repeat. But I'm starting to think about it. I've started to look into a couple of things I think I have mentioned before that like our Greece trip, but I doubt it's going to happen. [00:01:19.900] - Tamara So I'm trying to come up with other kind of backup plans and we're still kind of hoping that we can go look at some colleges this spring. So we're looking into that and booking things tentatively. Everything is like, if things are going well, so I guess it's written in pencil, not in pen. [00:01:39.940] - Kim Yeah. I felt all excited. We, you know, attended a conference recently, virtually, of course. So our listeners don't get shocked. But it was just nice to talk about travel again. But it really it made me excited and I would love to plan a trip for spring break and do something. But I'm kind of torn on, you know, will California like, we've done the road trip to California, a few spring breaks and it's always such a nice trip and I'm tempted to do that again. However, California right now doesn't want people from out of state and even people in state are not supposed to go without like 100 some miles from their house. [00:02:21.400] - Kim And so I'm kind of torn on do I make plans or because I'm kind of tired of canceling stuff, it's it's almost discouraging. So I'm almost in a holding pattern. [00:02:31.000] - Kim I thought about booking a Lake Front Cabin or something on Airbnb, where for spring break we could just go and relax and bring Sophie and just kind of get out of our space. But we you know, we have this nice backyard now and some of our space, we live on a lake. And so, I mean, we're not on the lake, but we're, you know, very close. [00:02:52.510] - Kim So it seems kind of stupid to spend money to go have kind of a lifestyle that we already sort of have. And yeah. So I'm just torn. I guess I don't really want to cancel anything. I don't know what to book. I don't I still don't know. I probably need to just make a tentative plan of doing something in state, even if it's a weekend getaway, just kind of having a hotel stay again. It was so nice when we did that for Christmas. We went to one of our local hotels and did a shopping trip and just kind of stayed in the hotel. And it was it was nice. It was nice just to get out of our house for a little while. But yeah, I guess the cancellation is holding me back. [00:03:27.910] - Tamara I brought that up to Hannah recently. Like, what about doing like a staycation at a hotel? And she's like, well, it's like dumb to spend the money. And part of me feels like, yeah, you know, I would like to save it for like real travel. But on the other side of the coin, like, I do know that it's just been so long that you forget. But I do know that every time we have gotten away, you know, even for a weekend, we always look at each other and we're like, we feel like we're so far away. Like we feel like everything changed so much. Like, you know, it's just so nice to have that change of scenery. So I do think we're all craving it right now. But it is definitely a cost consideration, right. [00:04:06.580] - Tamara Because like you said, do you want to still do those fun things when they come up? And I know the episode we're talking about today with Danielle is all about how to save for a trip. And so spending on things you don't need is probably not the advice, but sometimes mentally you do need it. But I mean, as we're looking into different things, I'm definitely seeing like a trend in terms of pricing. Like we're looking at doing this road trip to visit some colleges. And there we would be staying close to the college and, you know, more like in a city or small town kind of thing. [00:04:41.230] - Tamara And those hotels are actually really affordable because there's just not a lot of that kind of tourism happening right now, you know? [00:04:49.750] - Tamara So I've even been like, well, if we do this, I want to book a suite because I want to have space. Like, I don't want to feel like we're on top of each other, but I also want to have a place where we can bring food in and eat because, you know, it's still going to be cold. [00:05:02.920] - Tamara And so we're not really doing outdoor dining, but we're not going to want to do much indoor dining unless something has a very low capacity, you know? [00:05:10.810] - Kim And a place where the microwave is helpful because we are in a hotel that had a. And it was nice to get the food and take out and bring it back, but, you know, every once in a while you'd want to heat it up and we didn't have it. [00:05:22.040] - Tamara So, yes, I found that actually for what I thought would be the cost of a regular room, I can get a suite, so that's good. But then when it comes to summer, I'm looking at doing something that feels more resort, like more, if we can't go to Greece, I would like something. I know it's not going to be Greece, but can it be something like nice? And I think you know me. You know that I don't really love the big high rise hotels and that type of thing because I want something a little bit more intimate, more personal, has more character or whatever. [00:05:56.410] - Tamara and also like now in times of covid, like, I don't want to have to always be in an elevator, in a hallway or a crowded pool area or like any of that kind of stuff, like I want more like open air. So I found a couple of places that I absolutely fell in love with in the Florida Keys. But oh my God, the price like it is insane. So it was one of those moments where I've always told Glenn, don't show me things that I can't afford. I don't want to look at houses that I can't afford, and I want to look at cars that I can't afford. I don't want to look at clothes that I can't afford. [00:06:27.220] - Tamara And there's also some things where it's like even if you could afford it, like there are times where I've gone to, like, shopping for a store and I'm like, I'm sorry, but I am not spending 100 dollars on jeans. [00:06:37.840] - Tamara It's just not like I grew up so frugal that it's like really hard for me to, like, spend on certain things. And I am more willing to do it on like travel. And I look at it, I said, look, I want something special. Like we gave up, you know, our special trip last year. We're probably giving up this year. I still want to do it in the future. [00:06:55.240] - Tamara But can we have something special like not just we went away for like four days, but like, can it be to a special place, you know, to try to find that in an environment that feels safe, knowing that this summer is still, you know, all the protocols are still going to be in place. Like whether or not we will be vaccinated is still a big if. And so they're still going to be a lot of travel and safety concerns. And, you know, I wanted to feel special, but I can't spend two thousand dollars a night. I mean, it's just insane. [00:07:24.850] - Tamara Every time I look at things, I'm like, are there really that many rich people in the world like? And then I realized, there are. [00:07:32.320] - Kim yeah, obviously. So I mean, I'll never forget the time that I spent five hundred dollars for one night at a Disneyland hotel and I thought that was just stupid. I felt like an idiot then. But it was important for me to have the extra hour and make the most of our time and stuff. [00:07:46.960] - Tamara I feel like sometimes I'm willing to do it like it gives you enough pleasure. It it provides something that you're really looking for, you know, and I would I would even spend, you know, a good amount more than that, but not two thousand dollars a night. [00:07:59.810] - Tamara And then have to buy food, you know, food and drink and everything else on top of that. And so all I can say is if anybody just won the lottery, look up little Palm Island in Florida and you'll be very happy. And I found another place that looked really good, too. It's called Bungalows Key Largo. They look pretty good. [00:08:15.970] - Tamara It's like an adult, only all inclusive in Florida because we're just trying to stay where can we get that tropical feel without necessarily leaving the country and having to deal with, like, all the bubbles and testing and, you know, just all the kind of hassles for a fairly short trip. [00:08:31.280] - Tamara So anyway, I'm still searching and maybe using some of Danielle's tips will help me, you know, continue to save, although I don't think I'm saving quite that much. [00:08:42.160] - Kim Yeah, well, maybe she'll inspire you to realize that you don't need the 2000 night hotel that you know. I know. But now I've seen it. I definitely think that Florida is probably attracting a lot of those kind of, you know, snow escapers right now. So I'm not surprised to hear that there. [00:09:01.240] - Tamara This is because I'm looking for July, everybody's making plans. Everybody wants to make it now. Well, and I think the other tip is like, you really do need to plan in advance. The reason I want to book something now is because for those things that if you want what you want, like, so does everyone else. [00:09:18.670] - Kim I think that's a good tip. Well, let's talk to Danielle and hopefully she can inspire us all to put away a little bit of savings so maybe we can splurge on something that's safe and fun for this summer. [00:09:28.780] - Tamara Sounds good. [00:09:38.030] - Tamara So this week, we're here with Danielle Desir, and she is an author, blogger, podcaster and Founder of the Thought Card, which is an award winning affordable travel and personal finance blog and podcast, empowering financially savvy travelers to make informed financial decisions, travel more, pay off debt and build wealth. She's also the coproducer of Millennial Wealth Builders, a three time grant funded audio docu series highlighting women of color building wealth. Welcome, Danielle. [00:10:03.950] - Danielle Thank you so much for having me. [00:10:06.230] - Tamara We're always excited to talk to another podcaster here. And we focus so much on family travel that sometimes we forget we need to get out of our little family travel bubble and talk to some new people, too. So I know you have a very interesting, back story when it comes to paying off debt, building wealth and traveling while you're doing it. [00:10:26.220] - Tamara And I think this is a time, especially so many families are struggling right now, given everything we've all been dealing with for the past year and trying to afford a vacation when the time is right is definitely a challenge. I think now is the time maybe to start thinking about strategies and ways for that. So that's why we want to talk to you today. But before we jump into that, can you tell us a little bit more about your own personal journey? [00:10:51.200] - Danielle Sure. So I would say that I have a love for travel at a really young age. And I also grew up in a family where money was talked about all the time. So it wasn't a secret. My mom was very transparent about how to save, how to spend. I even remember seeing her student loan with so many zeros at the end, like a really young age, so that that love of travel and that love of, I guess, the love of money or appreciating money and understanding, using it as a tool came early on. Now, my family, every summer we would go to Haiti. [00:11:28.010] - Danielle That's where my family's from. And that's where I would spend all summer there with my grandparents running around with the chickens and the farm and learning the culture, the food, speaking the language. So, I mean, since I was like five years old, so I was about 15 when it kind of became uncool to, like, leave your boyfriend back home for the summer. So that's really like my back story of like how travel has been a really big, integral part of my life since I was really young. [00:11:53.990] - Danielle And money, again, was talked about all the time. Now, I would say when I got to high school, I started to see travel as being uncool. It was taking me away from my friends.And like I mentioned, my boyfriend at the time. And I was I was really hanging out with my friends and I was really friend focused. So I gave up travel. It really just the left it alone until I got to college and travel emerged again. [00:12:21.530] - Danielle But now it was like, it's the cool thing to do. Everyone was going on spring break trips and, you know, study abroad programs. And unfortunately, at the time my study abroad, I couldn't study abroad on a financial aid package. I had a ton of scholarships that helped to put my costs down for school, but they weren't going to cover studying abroad. So I had asked my mom, I said, Mom, listen, I would love to go to spend a semester in Paris. Is that possible? And she was like, of course I would do anything that I can. And that was great. But the back stories that we were losing our home to foreclosure. So a part of me felt so guilty that my mom couldn't even keep the lights on. Right. We're about to lose our house. And here I would be gallivanting off in Paris. [00:13:08.480] - Danielle So I made the decision that I wasn't going to study abroad, but I made also the vow to myself and a promise to myself, which ultimately has helped me become the traveler I am today, that once I graduated from college, graduate from grad school, I would work really hard to be able to save and prioritize travel in my life. So that vow now, like almost ten years later, has been something that kept me grounded. I went on my first trip in 2014. My had graduated in 2011, so it took me three years to, like, get out to save enough funds. [00:13:46.280] - Danielle But it started off with saving twenty five dollars every two weeks when I actually did get a job so that twenty five dollars every two week transformed into a week long trip to Paris in 2014. And then every single year I just try to learn more about being a savvy traveler, saving more money, you know, going on more trips. And here we are in twenty, twenty one. [00:14:09.470] - Tamara That's nice. It makes me think of like growing up, we really didn't do any travel and we were just visiting family and I had such a passion for travel and stuff like travel posters on my walls. And my first real trip was to Mexico with like a school class in high school. And I think my mom, like, actually cashed in an insurance policy so that I could go on that. So, yeah, I've had my own little journey to being able to travel, but it means so much and you can make it happen. [00:14:38.240] - Kim I agree. I was kind of in the same situation. My family did not have a lot of money growing up and there was travel wasn't really anything a part of it. The most I traveled was for like a softball tournament to a nearby city. And I think I went from Kansas, Oklahoma once for a tournament. And then I remember taking one epic trip to visit family in Southern California in like fifth grade. And that was kind of a big you know, that was a big deal for me. [00:15:02.270] - Kim But once I got married, I was like, OK, travel is going to be a part of our life. And so I kind of started planning and getting into it more. But it's interesting how it can, you know, like you have this passion even if you didn't experience it as a kid. [00:15:15.770] - Danielle So, yes, I totally agree. One of my dreams when I was a little kid was to go to Disney World, I'm sure, as a lot of kids have that goal. And it wasn't until I was, you know, 22, 23 that I actually ended up going to Disney. And I make fun of my mom now. I was like, mom, like, you never took me to Disney. We could laugh about it now. But I'm at the point now where it means so much more to me that I can take my mom and Disney when I have the finances to do that. [00:15:45.200] - Danielle So I think sometimes when you are growing up and you may not have the ability or maybe maybe like for me, I was going to Haiti every single summer, which was a part of travel, but I also did dance lessons. I also did like so many extracurricular activities. So I think when it comes to like family saving and prioritizing and travel, there are a lot of other things that may come before travel. So as an adult, I feel so much like more equipped to to make it work. [00:16:15.680] - Kim Yeah, exactly. Well, I know that there's probably a lot of people right now and then in in the grand scheme of things that feel like they can't afford to travel. I know I've had people say to me, like, how do you afford to take so many trips? And of course, being a travel writer now, they don't ask that as much. But when we first started traveling all the time, they would ask that all the time. [00:16:35.390] - Kim So what do you think are some top budgeting tips that you would give for people who, you know, want to travel but don't see how they could financially do it? [00:16:45.650] - Danielle So I know that budgeting is a bad word for a lot of people. It's the B word that everyone tries to avoid. But I definitely see budgeting as empowering because who set your budget? You do, right? Like, of course, we all have limitations based off of our income, but we have the ability to dictate how our money is moved around and where it gets allocated to. So no one seeing your budget as a tool that's going to be that you're going to use to really determine what your future is going to look like. [00:17:16.160] - Danielle Another thing I want to say is that when it comes to budgeting, I really like to sit down, I would say on a quarterly basis, especially after and during the pandemic, like right now, it's a good time to reassess and to do of wants versus needs list. So out of all of your expenses for the month, what are the things you absolutely need to survive versus the things that are nice to have? [00:17:38.450] - Danielle And the easiest place, if you're looking to save more for travel is to reduce from the wants list. So things that maybe maybe nice, maybe not. Maybe you have Hulu, Netflix and HBO. Maybe you don't need all three. Right? Maybe you just need one of them. So that that needs versus wants list is really, really powerful and it can help you to remove some unnecessary expenses. Like for me, I've been doing a lot of jumping rope at home, which has significantly reduced my gym costs. But I was paying for my gym for like the last six months because I just kept it on autopilot. [00:18:15.260] - Danielle So this is the time to go through. What are you spending your money on and what are things that, OK, I no longer need. Maybe that was my old life and now I can move on and and make sure you capture that and put it towards your travel savings. [00:18:28.940] - Danielle So my third tip is to create a travel fund. So a travel fund is simply a separate account that's devoted solely to your travel savings. [00:18:37.430] - Danielle There's a number of reasons why you want to do this, because no one at a glance you can see undistracted how much money you have available to go on a trip. That is very empowering. And also you're not commingling with other funds. So just being able to see it separately is really helpful. [00:18:54.950] There are a lot of online banks right now, for example, like if you're in the U.S., Ali or Charles Schwab, actually have a blog post on my Web site that recommends about three different big accounts that where you could open up a bank account for no money, you know, little to no money compared to brick and mortars, a lot of them have like maintenance fees and minimums and and it has all these and restrictions. [00:19:20.360] - Kim So, yeah, I was just chiming in again, one of those tips of those online, don't they? Also, a lot of times the ATM cards work well, like overseas and things. There's not fees on those as well. So that's another like travel perk. If you have your travel fund in a in one of those, then it also works for helping you get cash if you're overseas. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to add that is another little thing. [00:19:46.550] - Danielle And also, realistically speaking, like you're not necessarily going to be needing to run over to your brick and mortar to take out money on a consistent basis when it comes to your travel fund. It's usually going to be maybe a couple of times a year. So an online bank is just a great way to have some buffers and a little bit of a boundary and a space from just being able to go to your brick and mortar and take money out like willy nilly whenever you need to. [00:20:09.800] - Danielle So I definitely think a travel fund is just a just a great budgeting tip. [00:20:14.450] - Danielle And last but not least is to really take a look at your top three expenses. So for a lot of people, that's shelter like your housing costs, which is primarily fixed, like if you can't house hack or anything like that, like your housing is fixed. Transportation is another category that I've seen that I have significantly reduced since the pandemic. I'm not commuting as much. I'm not really driving that much. So that has been a place where I can funnel money into my travel fund and other goals and food. [00:20:45.200] - Danielle Food is a huge category, especially if you're like using insta cart, which I've become addicted to recently. So those are my my budgeting tips that's to get you started, really prioritizing, figuring out the things that you need versus the things that you want and try to funnel as much money as you can toward your travel savings. [00:21:09.860] - Tamara I mean, I love that you have these concrete tips because just the idea of putting it in a separate fund and watching that grow, it's such an incentive. You know, like when you see something, whether it's like in your business or whatever it is, when you see it growing, it's just I don't know. It's almost right now Kim knows this. I'm like lacking for positive, like a feedback loop in my life right now. [00:21:32.480] - Tamara And so even like a little thing like watching my bank account grow would be like, yeah, I'm doing it and feeling good. So I love that. I was also just thinking that my credit card expires or will renew, you know, next month. So I need to sit down with my bill and go through and see what's automatically billed every month, because you know how I will then stop being automatically billed, because your expiration date came up and I thought this is going to be a good time for me to look at it and figure out what things do we really not need. [00:22:01.760] - Tamara You know, because sometimes just looking at that bill, you skim it. But, you know, if you're not looking at every line item and realizing how much that that adds up, it's a good exercise to kind of go through every now and then just to say, hey, do I really need this? Do I really need that? But, you know, those are some great budgeting tips. [00:22:18.710] - Tamara But I'm wondering when it comes to actually saving for travel, do you have any other ideas? You know, how do you take the budget and make it a reality? [00:22:29.030] - Danielle So once you've identified areas where you can start funnelling into your travel fund, I would highly recommend to automate as much as possible. And I think you referred to this year, like, I just want to set it, forget it and just watch it grow. [00:22:42.470] - Danielle And that's so powerful, being able to dictate where money is going to go and not having to actually think about it. So I try to best as possible. I have a direct deposit automation since I have a 9:00 to 5:00 employer. Even if you're a freelancer, you can still do like a bank transfer every so often except the frequency. But that's been really helpful. So throughout the entire pandemic, I've been fortunate enough where I did not even touch that automation at all. So now I have a stash of cash to pull from to go on that bigger, bigger trip one day when we can travel because it's been automated. So automation really allows you to just kind of let things happen in the background. [00:23:27.260] - Danielle Now, one of my favorite apps to help me save a little bit extra cash for travel is digit. So digit is a auto saving app. There is a small monthly fee, but for me, it's been able to pay like it's paid for itself, just one little automation it's been able to pay itself. But what it does is that every single day it takes maybe a little bit like a couple of cents out of your account to a couple of dollars out of your account every single day. [00:23:56.720] - Danielle Or you could also say whenever you're swiping your card, you could really determine how frequent you want it. And it just stashes it for you and you could determine what type of goals you want to have. So I have a mini travel fund goal. I have a mini shopping spree goal. So all of these automation's happening in the background is actually in twenty nineteen. When I went to Disney for a week, I didn't even look at my travel fund because I just pulled from digit. I was like, oh there's just all this cash sitting there like I did even I literally did not even feel it. And if you're worried like oh my gosh, are they going to overdraft my account? They do have stops in place, which prevents that from happening. So and you could even say, listen, pause this until X, Y, Z, which is helpful. [00:24:41.780] - Danielle So in addition to my travel fund, I also have like this digit stash I pull from, which has been been awesome. And then the last tip I have when it comes to money saving tips for travel is having family buy in. So getting your family involved in the process of planning a trip, saving for travel from start to finish, getting them involved as early as possible. One of the things that I like to do is I like to name my bank accounts with my with my husband. And that allows us to both say, OK, what is it that we're both really excited about for our next trip? [00:25:20.870] - Danielle And we named that account and we we both collectively try to work on that goal together. And then when we're going to plan the trip, all that hard work we can celebrate. I just think it's really great to not only the practical tips, but also just getting your family involved as much as possible with the planning process. [00:25:39.000] - Kim We've always kind of said that with family travel, especially like with getting kids involved in it and, you know, excited about the destination, giving them a little control over it. And I think when people you know, when you when you combine the enthusiasm and the focus, it can make a difference. And I think that's a good tip. And that digit sounds really cool. Like I remember in the old days I don't remember which bank account would let you round up. So every time you would swipe your card, it would round up and that money would go into a savings account for you. And so it's really it's a really clever way of just kind of I think automating it, like we've mentioned, is a huge factor so that you're not feeling like it's costing you something to put the money away. [00:26:20.850] - Tamara It makes me feel like going and looking at how much is in there would be like when you find the 20 dollar bill in your pocket, they forgot you had there, you know. [00:26:29.310] - Danielle Or like when you're doing laundry and then you find that money in your pocket, like, oh, my gosh. [00:26:35.970] - Kim And I think my girls have experienced that recently, you know, that we have savings accounts for them. And I started giving them the savings account like their statements and then being able to see that, like, interest does add up, even though it's so minimal now. But that's, I think, seen how interest accruing and all that works is very motivating for a lot of people. [00:26:56.730] - Tamara And I feel like even when you make a decision, like I know I always try to talk to Hannah about things like when I'm making a decision, I'm like, well, you know, I just feel like that's too much money to spend. And I'll explain why, you know, kind of explain the rationale behind it. [00:27:10.260] - Tamara And you know why making the choice that I am and maybe what that then allows us to do, you know, versus if we did, you know, X, Y, Z all the time, you know. So I think having those conversations, like you said, Danielle, like your mom was very open with you, I feel like it's really important to kind of it's an education, too. And it's really important to educate our kids about how to manage their money. [00:27:31.560] - Kim Yeah, I totally agree. So, Danielle, do you have any, you know, top you mentioned digit is one of your favorite apps, but do you have any other tips or apps for finding travel deals? So once you've saved money, maybe, how can you get a good deal on your vacation? [00:27:47.010] - Danielle Yes, this is my favorite part about both parts of my favorite parts, because that's what I think makes up a financially savvy traveler, is not only being able to accrue enough money to go on a trip, but also to be able to spend it as wisely as possible. But value based spending.So it's really like, what are you valuing and making sure that your spending aligns with that versus just spending frivolously. [00:28:12.960] - Danielle So just to just to really think back in terms of what is a financially savvy traveler for me, prior to the pandemic, I was I was cornering the cheap flights market like that was that was me that I was finding the cheapest deals ever. [00:28:31.980] - Danielle And it was just so exciting. And this goes back to the Value-Based Spending Idea, because for me, I just want to arrive safely at a destination. I don't really care that much for luxurious comforts in the air, but everyone is different, right? If you prioritize your your flight experience and you may not necessarily prioritizing your hotel or accommodation. So everyone has something that they're prioritizing. For me, it was not airfare. So that's where I focus my energy on trying to maximize like just spend as little as possible. [00:29:04.830] - Danielle So some of the sites that I I look at when I'm thinking about cheap flights and I'm going to also offer some sites as well, that's more general travel planning because a lot of people are not flying right now. One of my favorite is secret flying. So secretflying.com is a free website which offers daily flight deals every single day, which is really helpful from all over the world. So I would sign up for their free newsletter and everyday they will send you a couple each day. [00:29:35.160] - Danielle And this is important because it's helping you to establish a baseline for your flight costs, which is important because you want to be able to know when you're maximizing and when you're finding a really good deal. Not everything that comes across your desk is a good deal. But how are you going to know that if you're not using data, making a data driven decision? [00:29:54.120] - Danielle So I would use websites like Secret flying to just really understand, like, OK, to Europe baseline, how much do I expect to spend? And then I'm always looking for like that below average costs. So secret flying is a good one. [00:30:07.620] - Danielle The flight deal is fantastic they are another free web site that again offers you daily deals, which is helpful. I really like to keep an eye on. The PointsGuy also has been really helpful. They have a daily deal section. Those are more for like the flights now. [00:30:25.440] - Danielle I really love Travelzoo. So Travelzoo dot com. They have a weekly Wednesday top twenty list now prepandemic make those deals were amazing. [00:30:36.510] - Danielle Those deals were amazing. And I'll give you like a quick example of the deal that I found there. The deal, one of the deals that I will never forget is I found a 299 dollar deal, a ten, ten day all expenses like flights, hotels, some food to China, China. [00:30:53.980] - Kim Yes, I saw that my my husband and father in law did that deal. [00:30:58.980] - Danielle Yes. I mean, there there are some pros and I believe that's its own episode. There's a lot of with that. [00:31:03.600] - Danielle There you go. Yes, you're right. It is. It's own episode. It's its own episode. We'll put an asterisk on that for everyone who also wants to go book that there's an Asterix. [00:31:12.090] - Danielle Yes, there's a lot of Asterisk on that. But it was a deal that I spotted through Travelzoo, which is incredible. So Travelzoo not only offers flights, but sometimes they offer hotels or combined packages. So that's a free newsletter that I highly recommend to. [00:31:28.620] - Kim Some other hotel deals are amazing, unlike luxury, you know, nice four and sometimes five star resorts. They they offer some great deals. [00:31:36.660] - Danielle Exactly. Exactly. And then the last website that I really like is gate one travel. So gate one travel. They have not only independent trips where they pretty much like book your flight and they book your hotel, but they also run tours, too. So you could have like the full fledged experience where you have a tour guide and all of that and they have a weekly deal list every Monday, which they've actually reinstated since the pandemic. And it's just good to see like they have frequently like a thousand dollar deals to Dubai or other other really cool destinations. So I'm really all about signing up for all the free newsletters and keeping an eye out to see what's happening. [00:32:17.370] - Danielle And then, you know, being able to not only couple that with the finances and then book it and go and love that, especially it does. [00:32:26.010] - Tamara When you see a lot of those deals, you kind of get a sense for not just like what that base price, you know, is what is a good deal, but also just. What are some of the destinations that come up a lot for deals, because there are certain places that you'll see pop up like kind of over and over and you're like, OK, so I know if I want to go there, I'm going to be able to find a deal. I just need to hold out and wait for it. You know what I mean? And I really like your point about prioritizing. It's one of the things that Kim knows that we really like to enjoy local food. We're kind of foodies. And so we will spend a lot more on food when we're in a destination than some other people. [00:32:59.600] - Tamara So it's one of those things when I'm looking at, you know, like my overall budget, I'm like, well, we spent this, but you may not need to, you know, like, there are other options. So like you said, it all depends on what is important to you. So it sounds like you probably have found a lot of your kind of budget trips through some of these deals and such. [00:33:21.250] - Tamara But through your travels, have you found some destinations that you feel are more, you know, kind of favorite budget destinations, like places where people kind of should keep an eye out? Because if you're looking for a budget deal, you're apt to find one? [00:33:35.920] - Danielle Yeah, I think it depends on the time of year. So I would frequently go to Ireland. I've been to Ireland twice in January because I found years apart the same or similar price deals to go to Ireland, to go to Dublin. So I it's funny because Dublin in Ireland is not necessarily the cheapest, the cheapest places to go do. And it's interesting because I the places I love to visit are actually some of the most expensive in the world. So Iceland. I love Iceland, I love Bermuda, I love Ireland. [00:34:08.500] - Danielle These places are not necessarily cheap, but again, it's all about like the expenses and how you spend there. But in terms of my own personal experiences, I found Lisbon, Portugal to be affordable, especially as a European destination. I found that pretty affordable. I also found Mexico to be affordable as well, which has been really helpful. And let's see if there's any other. China was also very affordable as well. [00:34:39.690] - Kim Tamara and I were in Lisbon and, you know, so that's great. And we were actually been in Ireland together, too. [00:34:46.060] - Kim So I can remember in Lisbon, we had that like five euro lunch. That was a lot of food. [00:34:51.340] - Tamara Yeah, I was thinking of that. I think Tamara and I both realized that in some ways Lisbon is extremely affordable as a European destination. Like even there are tourist attractions that you go to are still like priced fairly well. [00:35:06.550] - Danielle Yes, there's a couple, actually, a family, a family that they're on YouTube. They're called Our Rich Journey. And they recently moved to Portugal after retiring early and being financially independent. And it's just really interesting to hear why. Like, why did they pick Portugal out of all the places in the world? So, yes, definitely. I definitely agree. Lisbon has really great food beaches. So many great things to do at a at a really good price. [00:35:35.320] - Kim So we've covered, you know, kind of some big destinations and definitely places for a lot of our listeners that they would be putting off right now. But, you know, one of the hot topics I think right now for a lot of us is kind of local travel, you know, sticking around your own backyard or maybe, you know, around your own region. Do you have any tips for families that might be thinking of exploring around them that you think could, you know, be beneficial from a savings standpoint? [00:36:03.040] - Danielle Yeah, last summer was, for me, the Great Awakening, because I realized, like, OK, travel's changed completely for me. I'm no longer flying. So I did a lot of more road trips and I live in the Northeast. So I visited towns or cities like between four and five hours away from home. One of the things I personally think that's important is to really think about if you prefer to stay at a hotel right now or if you prefer to stay at an Airbnb, each of them have their own pros and cons. [00:36:37.780] - Danielle If you want to be necessarily like, let's say, secluded or you prefer to be like in a more remote location, then you have a lot of more options with Airbnb. Now, the problem with Airbnb is that there's so much more expensive now. A lot of hosts actually have higher fees, the cleaning fees. That has been astronomical. So if you are thinking about going on a, you know, more local trip or road trip, definitely start looking at Airbnb early. I would say anything from like four to five months early just to start to see, OK, what are price trends? Is it even affordable to stay at an Airbnb or do I prefer to stay at hotels? Now, in the countryside, a lot of hotels are offering really deep discounts. So a lot of financially savvy travelers are telling me that staying at a luxury hotel is like the most affordable it's ever been, right, because the capacities are down. The demand is down, which means prices are down, which is really helpful. So that I think is is number one is really great. [00:37:45.970] - Danielle I think for the majority of all the money saving tips and ideas I was sharing before are all relevant, like using digit and making priorities in your budget and and getting your family involved. These are all things that regardless of the destination or the type of travel they could, still going to be beneficial. [00:38:05.050] - Danielle Some other tips I would just share for those who are thinking about local travel. The thing about it right now, especially what I've discovered from last summer, is that each state has its own restrictions. Each state has its own quarantine. Or I mean, there's 50 states and each state is different. So really making sure that before you set out and go looking at what the state requirements, not only the state that you want to visit, but also your state as well, because some states are actually fining folks if you're not like being compliant. So that that's really helpful. And I would also say look at the tourism board website. [00:38:42.560] - Danielle So tourism boards are going to keep you up to date with what's going on. And that's one of the places I actually look for for the most important information. [00:38:51.520] - Tamara And sometimes they have deals to like sometimes they might have like a pass or, you know, sometimes some of their attractions. If you book online, you get a little discount. So Kim and I always talk about like looking at the tourism board website. And it's amazing. Kind of the I don't know, it's very helpful just to figure out what's there, but it's just helpful, you know, also finding some of those little deals and things that you may not have known about, like which restaurants offer kids eat free or which, you know, might have a Monday half price wine night or something like that, you know? [00:39:23.500] - Tamara Well, you've given us a lot to think about. And I love that a lot of your tips have given us some apps and things, too, that we haven't necessarily talked about with some of our other guests. But we do have a question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, what do you wear when you travel? Do you have a favorite brand? You know, any particular go to travel outfit? [00:39:43.750] - Danielle I would say I'm more of obsessive over footwear, so I really, really want to make sure that I have something comfortable with my feet. So I usually go to with vans. I like that their slip on that they're super comfortable and that I can just be more relaxed in them. No high heels for me, no high heels. [00:40:04.210] - Tamara I'm with you there. [00:40:05.470] - Kim Yes. So Danielle, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you online? [00:40:11.500] - Danielle Well, thank you again so much for having me. It was really fun chatting all about traveling money. You could head over to thought car dotcom. That's my affordable travel website. I also have the thought card podcast, which is my Affordable Travel and personal finance podcast. And I actually have two books that I think would be relevant to today's conversation. So the first book I have is called Affording Travel Saving Strategies Financially Savvy Travelers. And another book I published recently is planning local trips during a pandemic. So I think those two books would be really great to take the next step. [00:40:52.810] - Tamara So thank you again for being on and chatting with us and looking forward to following your future travels. And I need you to tell me which luxury resorts in the Northeast are offering discounts, because I'm telling you, all the ones I've been looking at are way beyond my price range. [00:41:07.360] - Danielle You know, it's so funny. I've been sticking to Airbnb, so I've been hearing rumors that they're cheaper. But I just prefer Airbnb out. They have been out in the cabin. So the countryside [00:41:18.280] - Tamara We've done some of that. So I'm looking at something for the summer. I'm like, oh, man, I know the hotels are hurting, but these prices are outrageous. So I'm going to keep dreaming on that one for a bit. Keep dreaming and keep saving. [00:41:31.000] - Kim Now, if you keep saving, maybe something, then sign up for some emails. You never know what I'll fall. [00:41:34.690] - Danielle You never know. You never know. [00:41:37.390] - Kim Thanks so much, Danielle. It was great chatting with you. [00:41:39.490] - Kim Thanks so much as always. Thanks for joining us. For another week of vacation mavens next time, which is two weeks away, we're going to be celebrating something big. It's our fifth year anniversary of Vacation MAVEN's. We are five years old, so we are celebrating in a manner that, you know, truly is fitting for Tamara and I, for those of you that know us, we are going to be talking all about wine tasting and wine tasting tips. [00:42:05.410] - Kim So I hope you will join us in two weeks and we will talk to you again soon [00:42:10.510] - Tamara Come raise a virtual glass with us to celebrate and look forward to it and send us a picture. Yeah, definitely. Say cheers to us.

christmas god tv netflix california founders europe china disney secret mexico travel european tips local ireland mom hbo budget oklahoma web saving portugal kansas southern california traveling airbnb streaming gate hulu greece dubai haiti disneyland dublin disney world iceland transportation signing fees northeast groundhog day atm bermuda lisbon automate great awakening digit charles schwab florida keys asterix asterisk points guy danielle desir palm island travelzoo full episode transcript vacation mavens danielle you announcer welcome kim here we3travel stuffed suitcase

182 Catskills NY

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 2, 2021 49:59

This week we are "traveling" to upstate New York to the land of mountain resorts of yore in the Catskill Mountains in New York. Fadra Nally from All Things Fadra fills us in on what is different in this region from the times of Dirty Dancing and The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and why it makes a great spot for an outdoor-focused girlfriend getaway with waterfalls, wine, and shopping or a family vacation destination with hiking, kayaking and more. About Fadra Nally Fadra is a blogger and podcaster focusing on the lighter side of cars, entertainment, and travel. Her favorite destinations are as close as West Virginia and as far away as Saudi Arabia. You can find her online at AllThingsFadra.com, or on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter. Tips for Visiting the Catskills The Catskills are located just about two hours north of New York City and cover 700,000 acres over four counties, with the Hudson River creating the eastern border. While the Catskills were popular in the 1950s, especially with families in NYC, many of those all-inclusive type of family resorts are no longer there. Dirty Dancing was based on a resort called Grossinger's, which is no longer operating, but it was actually filmed in Virginia and North Carolina. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel episodes in the Catskills were filmed at a family-run resort called Scott's Family Resort at Oquaga Lake. The Catskills are a good four-season destination, with skiing and winter sports in the winter, great hiking year-round, and beautiful fall foliage in October. However, some activities and attractions may only be open from May to October. There are a lot of breweries, wineries, and distilleries in the Catskill region. Kaaterskill Falls is one of the tallest in New York State at 260 feet, which is higher than Niagara Falls. It is approximately a one-mile hike, including a series of stairs, to reach the top and an overlook. Some trail heads may be closed so look online to find alternatives. There are many cute towns with great bookstores, restaurants, and boutiques for shopping. There are many cabin rentals that you can find on Airbnb that are perfect for a self-contained getaway where you can either cook or bring in take out. Mohonk Mountain House near New Paltz is a great hotel to stay at or even visit for brunch and then enjoy the hiking trails on the grounds. Catskill, Kingston,and Hudson are all great little towns to set up a home base. Fadra stayed in Cocksackie on the water, which has a smaller downtown that is undergoing a revitalization to make it a wedding destination. Cocksackie has a great bottle shop and Chez Figata is a good restaurant to try for dinner. If you go further west in the Catskills you will find more resorts and mountains. It is a great destination for a girlfriend getaway, romantic getaway, or a family vacation. The Kartrite Resort in the Catskills is great for families and has an indoor waterpark. Fadra stayed at an Airbnb called Heron's View. Be sure to plan in advance if you are going to rent a cabin or vacation home. [00:00:00.150] - Kim Where can you find Waterfalls, wine and shopping just a couple of hours from New York City? Stay tuned to find out. [00:00:18.730] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:33.700] - Kim So, Tamara, we are in February. And, you know, things are starting to change a bit in the travel sector. I feel like we've been in a pretty standard operating procedure. But we recently had some big news come out for people that are planning to fly into the United States, and that is that they are going to require a negative covid test. [00:00:56.890] - Tamara Yeah, and I think that's a big deal. I'm thinking of people that have done some trips like to the Caribbean especially. I've been seeing a lot of that or Mexico. And now to think about how you are going to get that test on the way back, otherwise you're not going to be allowed home. Tt's something you have to really take into consideration. I think in the past, we've thought about testing to leave, but not testing to come back. So definitely a change. [00:01:23.920] - Kim Yeah, I think it makes sense. It seems good. I'll be honest where we're at with not traveling at all. It seems odd that people are traveling to the Caribbean and Mexico. [00:01:34.420] - Kim But I know that some people are choosing to do that and definitely still planning vacations and traveling and stuff. But I think this is definitely going to be an extra layer of logistics that they have to consider. I know you had mentioned some testing might be done at airports or such, but I know I've received a couple of press releases from major hotels such as the Palace Resorts, where we had stayed at one Moon Palace in Jamaica. [00:02:03.400] - Kim But they are offering free testing to their guests that will help them further. You know, American guests are flying back into the states so that that is one thing that you might consider is checking for hotels that are offering it. I think they know how much they rely on that tourism dollar. And so they're doing whatever they can to make sure that American tourists keep coming down and visiting. [00:02:27.030] - Tamara Yeah, especially because I imagine they could get pricey. I mean, if you think about some of the private testing that is available tends to be 100 dollars or more a person, so that can definitely add to the vacation cost. I was just talking to friends of ours and we were talking about their 25th anniversary in October, and they wanted to do like a four day getaway to the Caribbean. And I was like, here are some things to think about. [00:02:49.900] - Tamara And they're like, do you think that's still going to be in place? And I have no idea. And that's the thing is like we don't know how long. So, maybe people are thinking about a spring break trip, maybe they're thinking about summer. We just don't know how long these things are going to be in place. And it's definitely, for a four day trip, you think about the time it takes you away from your little vacation to have to deal with testing. [00:03:12.130] - Tamara And even before you go, like even though testing is more widespread, I know here a lot of the testing that I can get easily and that they encourage us to get regularly now is the rapid test and the rapid test is not going to qualify for what most countries will we will need. [00:03:27.640] - Tamara They'll need a PCR test for coming in, so if I try to get a PCR test, it doesn't have the same guaranteed turnaround time. And so then that could really mess up your trip. And so then you have to think about, OK, maybe I have to do private testing. Like when we talked to Amber about her trip to Hawaii, she used a company called Vault Health to do private testing before she left. [00:03:49.570] - Tamara And so now you might be paying for testing on both sides, plus taking time away from your vacation like I was just thinking about in Mexico when we went to Riviera Maya, it was about an hour from the Cancun airport. And transportation was pretty expensive because we weren't going to rent a car because we were planning on staying on the resort and then, getting back and forth to the airport. If that's where you have to do your testing, that that's going to be time consuming out of your trip. [00:04:17.830] - Kim So, yeah, a lot of considerations. [00:04:20.410] - Tamara And then I think also there's things to think about. Obviously, every country has their own rules. And I mean, pretty much most of them are still off limits. But even the ones that are accepting visitors from the U.S., which are a lot of the Caribbean islands and Mexico, Costa Rica. I know I was just following our friend Sarah that talked to us about kind of where the Caribbean was and they're reopening of the islands to go to. And we talked to her back in the summer. She does a lot of reporting from down there. [00:04:50.020] - Tamara So she's just in Anguilla and it looks like she had to have a PCR test before she left a PCR test when she arrived. And then you're quarantined in your hotel room until the results of that get back, which are supposed to be within 12 hours. [00:05:04.690] - Tamara But then even beyond that, there's a 14 day quarantine within certain resorts or properties or a restaurant. [00:05:11.850] - Tamara So basically they've created this little like traveler's bubble so that if you are a visitor and your negative, but you're still have a red wristband that you're in a 14 day quarantine and you can go to certain hotels, certain restaurants, but only on certain days. And then they're accessible to locals on other days to keep the locals and the visitors, I guess, a little separated. And I mean, it seems to be working. They've had no deaths and very few cases. [00:05:38.650] - Tamara But, wow, that's a huge I don't know I don't want to say restriction on your vacation because, you know, frankly, just being able to travel at all right now is a huge privilege and so but it's really it's not everyone's like, oh, I want to go on vacation. I wanted to be feel normal. Well, you know, maybe not. [00:05:57.250] - Kim Yeah, I think that's the thing is, it's I mean, we're still not looking at what normal is going to be for a while. And I think that's that's the big thing. I know. You know, we I do feel lucky that we have such great summers here in the Pacific Northwest and we could say, hey, we can, you know, go explore our own area again. But I think everybody is getting kind of sick of that. I know I'm you know, we love California and I'm typically down there a couple or few times a year. And we I just miss, you know, pool lounging and, you know, sunsets on the beach and all of that, you know, palm tree lifestyle. And so I don't know. And, you know, Disneyland is still not open. And I don't think it has any chance of opening for spring break, in my opinion. [00:06:44.260] - Kim So what that must be doing to that economy and all those workers, I mean, I can't even imagine. [00:06:49.030] - Kim So it's kind of a crazy, crazy world still. I mean, I can't believe we're coming on one full year of it. [00:06:55.630] - Tamara And yeah, I know it's it's beyond depressing, but I'm thinking mostly about summer and I just need a change of scenery, like, desperately. And so we're going to go somewhere. You know, our plan was to go to Greece, which we wanted to do last year, this year. And that may just never happen. So my strategy right now is I'm creating backup plans. [00:07:22.300] - Tamara So I'm just booking things that are cancelable and will go where we can go. I mean, I'm not going to book like airfare or whatever, but like I did for Greece, but it is changeable without a fee and it was a good deal. So I don't know I don't know what it will happen with that eventually. [00:07:40.870] - Tamara And the hard thing is, like everything is contingent on everything else. And that's what drives me crazy in my life because I am a planner and have a really, really hard time like not knowing what the future holds, not being able to plan for not having anything in my control. So even just talking to Hannah about like her summer plans, like last year, she was going to do this like counselor in training year at the camp that she's gone to and then do this Israel trip. [00:08:07.090] - Tamara And obviously that was canceled and all she did was stay home and take summer optional classes and face time with friends and go for runs with me. And then we did a couple little trips, but it was just not good. And so she was thinking that this year would be something entirely different. But then the camp said, well, we're just going to kind of push it out a year. [00:08:30.820] - Tamara So you have another chance. You know, she'd kind of like given up on that hope that she was going to do that. So now the camp is like, well, you know what, we're just like adding an extra year to camp. So now you can do it as a rising senior as well. And everything she's ever heard has been that that's like the best year of camp. And so she really wants to do it. [00:08:48.610] - Tamara But then we were kind of thinking this year she might focus on something a little bit more like a job or like an academic program or internship, something like that. And so it's like all these things like, is that camp, is it going to move forward? Because if it doesn't doesn't should you do this? And here are these other, like, astronomy related things that she wanted to do. But like one by one, those are getting canceled, too. [00:09:08.830] - Tamara So they're off the table. And then we are like, if you do that, then you'd be around here. But if you're not doing that, then you wouldn't be around here and maybe you want to do a family trip versus a you know, Glenn and I go on a trip. [00:09:20.680] - Tamara And then there's also like, well, coming back are there's still going to be quarantines and restrictions in place because like right now, especially with our school, there's very strong rules about, you know, what's allowed. [00:09:30.460] - Tamara And so it's like, well, if we did something when you came back from camp, but you need to have time to quarantine or whatever before you would have to start up soccer practice in like mid-August. And we're also trying to look at colleges like all over the country. [00:09:46.510] - Tamara And it's like, oh, gosh, it's just there's so many feel overwhelming. And it just feels overwhelming to get locked in, you know. Yeah. The one thing that I can then like, plan things around. [00:09:57.220] - Kim I get it. Yeah. [00:09:58.840] - Tamara And unfortunately it'll be like last year where it will literally be June, you know, like days before something where you finally know what the situation is. [00:10:07.780] - Kim Yeah. Who knows. We can hold out hope and just see what's going to happen the next couple of months. But I think it's important for us all to just try and like. You said earlier it's it's still a very privileged worry and a lot of ways with what's going on, so long as we keep that in mind that it is a privilege to travel and we all miss it and we will get to it when we can, and we just all support each other and do the best we can to follow rules. [00:10:33.250] - Kim I think the rules are there to keep everyone safe on both like visitors and locals. So I think just be following rules and make sure that you're educated about rules before you make plans. I think that's the thing to focus on right now, certainly. [00:10:46.450] - Tamara And I think also, if you are considering doing one of those like Caribbean, Mexico, whatever trips, it seems like Canada is on the verge of telling people like if you go out of the country, you may not be able to come back in. So it's like, who knows? That could happen here as well. [00:11:01.570] - Tamara Like right now there's bans on travel for people that are not U.S. citizens. But there's a lot of considerations to travel right now. [00:11:13.360] - Kim Well, I mean, the Tokyo Olympics have completely been scrapped, which is just so sad and hard on that country. And I'm sure. So it's it's affected so much of, you know, I mean, it's not like they can't delay it another year like they did. So it's very sad for all those situation. [00:11:33.010] - Tamara Yeah. [00:11:34.000] - Kim Well, we are going to try and not focus on the sad and we are going to talk about a New York state escape. So for many people, depending on, like you've said, travel restrictions and quarantine requirements, it is a possible escape because it sounds like it's a lot of small towns, kind of keep to yourself, go outdoors, hike destination. So we are going to be talking about the Catskills. [00:11:58.930] - Tamara Yes. Let's let's go to the Land of Dirty Dancing, right? [00:12:02.080] - Kim Yeah, exactly. [00:12:12.650] - Tamara Today, we're here with Fadra Nally. Fadra is a blogger and podcast author who focuses on the lighter side of cars, entertainment and travel, her favorite destinations are as close as West Virginia and as far away as Saudi Arabia. So welcome, Fadra. [00:12:26.660] - Fadra Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today about a location that's pretty close to where I am, but I've actually only been a few times. [00:12:35.450] - Tamara We're going to talk about the Catskill Mountains, but some of our listeners may have only heard of the Catskills for movies like Dirty Dancing or I think The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, they spend some time in the Catskills. But can you explain to our listeners, like, where are the Catskill Mountains and what are some of the towns in their area if you're going to look it up on a map? [00:12:53.000] - Fadra Well, I'll tell you, before I went last time, last November, for the first time, I only knew that I knew it from Dirty Dancing. And that was pretty much it. And, you know, it's it was kind of well known back in the 50s. It was a big sort of like a summer location for wealthy, usually Jewish families from New York City. They would head out to the Catskills and it's it's considered upstate New York. [00:13:16.520] - Fadra It is west of the Hudson River. And it actually encompasses it's about 700,000 acres and takes up four different counties. So it's a pretty large region. It's kind of in southeast New York state. So it's a very big area. It's a mountainous area. It's actually part of the Appalachian Mountains. So there's there's a lot to see and do there. And it's kind of funny that you mentioned the entertainment aspect, because I do cover entertainment as well as travel. [00:13:45.680] - Fadra And so it was kind of fun just to read a little bit more about it. And just a quick side note on Dirty Dancing. So the resort in that film is called Kellerman's, and it was inspired by a resort called Grossinger's, which is it's now gone. It's long gone, actually. So they actually shot that movie in Virginia and North Carolina. [00:14:07.850] - Fadra So they didn't even shoot it in the Catskills. But Mrs. Maisel, they did actually shoot there. There's a place called Scott's Family Resort at Oquaga Lake, and it's a family run hotel. I haven't been to the one in the Catskills. I've been to similar type hotels where it's sort of like an all inclusive, rustic, family friendly family activity type place. And that one, they actually chose to film it there because that's remained largely unchanged since the 50s. [00:14:35.060] - Tamara Yeah, it was funny. You talk about the 50s because I think my husband would get upset because growing up he always went to the Catskills and it was not in the 50s. [00:14:43.280] - Tamara But I always call him old, so. Yeah, but but he was definitely one of the New York Jewish families that always went to the Catskills. They went to the Concord, was like the big resort then. And he tells me about like some of the comedians that came in. And so, like the whole Mrs. Maisel thing, like definitely ties into that. But it's really funny because one of the first times we went skiing together, his only experience skiing was at the Concord, which I guess is like just a small little hill that you would take like a tow rope up. [00:15:10.310] - Tamara And so when we were going up the lift, I think it was in Mount Snow in Vermont, he was like, how high are we going? Like, how long is this lift? And I was like, I don't know. I'll take about like 10, 15 minutes. He's like, What? And then I was like, well, how long is it going to take to get down? I'm like, I don't know, like half an hour or so. [00:15:27.590] - Tamara And he was just like so shocked because it was, you know, his experience was, you know, very much going to the Concord in the winter and skiing there. But skiing was more like, you know, that most five minutes down the hill. [00:15:39.390] - Fadra So his idea of skiing sounds more like my idea of. So that's good to know. If I want to go skiing, I'm going to go to the Catskills. [00:15:47.160] - Tamara Yeah, I think there are some some tougher hills or mountains, I should say now. But anyway, it's funny because he definitely always talked about his experience in the Catskills. [00:15:57.530] - Kim That's funny. So speaking of winter and seasons, you had mentioned that you went in November, which would have been the fall. So it's it seems like maybe it's a seasonal destination. Do you know anything about some of the things that you can do around the different seasons and maybe the best time you think for people to visit? [00:16:14.480] - Fadra Well, you know, the great thing about the Catskills are that it's really a four season area. So I think it just depends on what you like to do. [00:16:23.150] - Fadra So I am not a skier, as you might have inferred from like those small little hills. I actually grew up doing some ski trips to Pennsylvania, which are also, you know, nice little hills, and I can handle that. So I'm not a big winter sports fan. They do have skiing there. So if that's something that you like to do, that is something that you can do in the Catskills. But the other three seasons are where you're really going to be able to take advantage of a lot of the outdoor activities. [00:16:49.370] - Fadra So, for example, I love to kayak and we actually stayed at a place right on the Hudson River. So you do have access to the river and you do have access to the mountains. So depending on what you like to do, we stayed right by the river, which would be great for warmer weather activities. And then, of course, all the mountain activities are, you know, just a short drive away. [00:17:09.590] - Fadra But I found November was just a bit too chilly for any activities on the river, and when you get into fall in an area like New York and in the mountains, you know, it's kind of hit or miss. You're going to have some warmer days and then you're going to have some really cold days. So I was actually content to just sit on the shore of the river. And for people that don't know, the Hudson River is a major waterway for cargo ships. [00:17:32.850] - Fadra And so, it's kind of fun just sitting out there. In fact, our first night there, I looked out the window. [00:17:38.610] - Fadra I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And my friends were like, what's wrong? What's wrong? I said, there's a giant ship on the river. [00:17:47.730] - Fadra So it was totally unexpected to see them go up and down. So that was kind of fun. But, you know, fall and spring are great for hiking, as is summer. [00:17:55.270] - Fadra I mean, you could do anything in the summer, but fall, fall or spring. It was perfect for us to do some brisk hiking. And then, like I said, if if you don't mind snow and you like skiing, there are opportunities in the winter as well. So, you know, it really just depends on what you like to do. But I would definitely consider it a four season area. [00:18:13.560] - Kim Is it really like tree heavy snow would fall be have a lot of fall colors like you hear so much about in the Northeast, or is it a little too far north for that? [00:18:22.680] - Fadra No, I think it depends. Again, it depends on where you go. Keep in mind that the Catskill region is huge and it goes all the way from the Hudson River, pretty far west. So if you start driving up, I think you're talking about maybe elevation wise, it is it you don't get a lot of trees. No, it was actually most of the leaves were gone by the time we went. We went mid to late November. [00:18:44.220] - Fadra So, you know, of course, the further north you go, the earlier the foliage season is. But no, the area is definitely popular for fall foliage and they definitely encourage that. In fact, it's still a big area for New York City people, even though it's a couple hours away, you'll get a lot of the leaf peepers in the fall. So, yeah, it's a beautiful area for that. [00:19:05.050] - Tamara Yeah, I was thinking I was in the Finger Lakes in September, like late September of this year. And so they are not too different in terms of how high up they are. So feel like October would probably be prime leaf season. [00:19:24.690] - Tamara And I definitely think that the Catskills have a lot of agritourism because when I was there for a family reunion, this was, oh, gosh, maybe 15 years ago almost. We went in the summer and there were like a lot of farms to visit. So I imagine in the fall that could be really, you know, an excellent time to like do all the pumpkin patches and stuff like that. [00:19:49.200] - Kim I'm betting if it's near the it has a lot of trees and it's near the river, it's probably really good for birdwatching. Not that I'm into that, but I'm thinking spring time would probably be really popular. [00:19:58.230] - Fadra I actually love bird watching, but I can't say it was something that occurred to me because along the river. So if you're going to stay along the river, you're probably going to stay in a town which is going to be a little bit more developed. [00:20:10.740] - Kim OK, but it's more I'm picturing like Pacific Northwest Rivers, but that's more like when I lived in Kansas. It's like the Missouri River, like transport river type. [00:20:19.020] - Fadra Exactly. Exactly. [00:20:20.680] - Tamara Okay. Yeah. When you were talking about kayaking, I'm like, wow, the Hudson, that's that's huge. And I'm not quite sure I'd want to kayak on that. [00:20:27.900] - Fadra You know, it's kind of funny because my husband grew up a little further south, but right along the Hudson River and he used to tell me stories of how they would jet ski all the time on the Hudson River. And you just you don't really grasp it until you're there. And you see, OK, it's a pretty big it's a pretty wide river. And then you see these massive ships going up. And I came home and I said, you were jet skiing on that river with these giant cargo ships. [00:20:52.260] - Fadra And he said, yeah, we used to you know, they would go behind the ships and catch the wake of the ships and jump them. And, you know, I was like, we are different people. He also did black diamond skiing trails. So, you know, he's more of a thrill seeker. [00:21:06.540] - Fadra I'm more of a I'm going to sit over here with my glass of wine and just, you know, take a look at the the world going by. [00:21:12.090] - Fadra But, yeah, I would I would definitely do some kayaking. I'd probably be more inclined to keep it, you know, close to the shore. And there are rules on the river. So, you know, they do have buoys, so you don't go out past a certain place and there are shipping lanes. So it's not like you can just cut straight across. [00:21:28.890] - Kim So, yeah, funny when you said that, it reminds me, I don't know if either of you are. Well I know not on TikTok, but I'm, I like TikTok sometimes and there's a thing and it's like, the best relationships always have one really boring person and one really crazy person because the it works. It's the only it's the only way that matches up. [00:21:49.110] - Fadra Did you just call me boring? [00:21:50.670] - Fadra Yeah, I'm, I'm with you. Compared to my look compared to my husband. I like different types. You know, I might try and exotic fish. [00:22:01.530] - Fadra You know, you live you live large. He's done everything jump out of airplanes. Motorcycles that I'm like, let's stay in a nice luxury hotel. [00:22:17.900] - Tamara I'm just thinking, I think that we're both the boring ones, which leaves Hannah to be the wild one. [00:22:23.900] - Tamara But, yeah, so we talked about kayaking and, you know, maybe some hiking, things like that. Are there any other, like activities? Are there attractions that you should see in the Catskills? [00:22:33.890] - Fadra So, you know, keep in mind that I went in November and we are, you know, in the midst of this thing called a pandemic. So, you know, I didn't get to explore everything that I wanted to see because, you know, there are reduced hours and reduced availability. And also there are some things that are open seasonally. So I would say, you know, the biggest activities are probably open from May to October. So keep that in mind. [00:22:58.790] - Fadra I was there in November. But with that said, I think the biggest things that I would recommend are waterfalls and wineries. And even if you're not into wineries, they have a lot of distilleries that are pretty well known. They have a lot of breweries. And so we didn't actually get a chance to hit any of those. But there are some you know, there are a couple really well-known distilleries that we were looking to get to. But waterfalls, of course, are, you know, available. [00:23:24.830] - Fadra That's that's a four season thing as well. I don't know that I would go in the winter, but it was a nice brisk hike to do the waterfalls. And, of course, you know, you have the mountains, you have the water. So you're going to get a lot of waterfalls. One of the places that we went that I absolutely loved, it's called Catskill Falls. And keep in mind that this area was founded by the Dutch. [00:23:45.380] - Fadra So you'll get that skill like Fishkill and Peekskill and which I think I think that I think Kill actually refers to River. I think that's what I think that's what it means. So it's a Dutch word. But Catskill Falls is a it's one of the largest the highest waterfalls in New York State. It's 260 feet tall. [00:24:05.000] - Fadra So it's actually higher than Niagara Falls. It's the tallest cascading waterfall in New York State. And it's really popular. And we went and it was it's about a one mile hike to get to the base of the waterfalls. And then you can actually go up a series of stairs to take you to the top of the waterfall. And it's a it's a beautiful overlook. It's a nice hike. And, you know, the only thing to keep in mind, again, during the pandemic, if you look online, it'll say the falls are closed. [00:24:38.180] - Fadra And what that means is some of the trailheads are closed. So you have to be a little bit more strategic about, you know, where you park and how you access it. But Catskill Falls was really amazing. And if you're not a super outdoorsy person, if you just wanted like a nice relaxing getaway, there are all kinds of cute little towns with shopping and eating. [00:24:59.300] - Fadra And again, you know, availability during this time is really going to vary by towns. But we found great bookstores and cute little coffee shops and restaurants and just like boutique shops, unique artsy shops. And one of the things that that I like to do when I travel is I like to stimulate the local economy and I like to try and find things that I couldn't find other, you know, in other places. So I do a lot of boutique shopping. [00:25:26.150] - Fadra And so, yeah, they had some really unique stuff there. So I definitely recommend the shopping as well. It's great. [00:25:32.310] - Kim It sounds like a kind of the type of place that you'd pick a nice hotel and maybe get a spa treatment and enjoy a lazy breakfast and then stroll around and maybe do a hike or two. And that's the kind of vacation I'm dreaming of right now as a kind of nice for a girlfriend getaway. [00:25:47.630] - Tamara Yeah, exactly. A romantic getaway. I think you definitely sold both of us on the waterfalls and wine. [00:25:52.100] - Kim Yeah, exactly. Tamara and I, those are it's like we're sold. We're in. [00:25:56.330] - Fadra And actually that's why I went in November. So last year was a big birthday for me. And I had decided going into the year that this is going to be my year to travel. And as you know, the world had other plans. And so two of my friends actually said, let's do just a local getaway. You know, it's drivable for all of us. And so we it was three girlfriends and we stayed in a little Airbnb, beautiful Airbnb on the water with three bedrooms. [00:26:26.870] - Fadra And it was just, you know, it was a perfect getaway for us. And, you know, the thing is right now that you can go out, but you can also, you know, get some takeout and have a girls night in and just be away from home. [00:26:39.020] - Tamara And it was really, really nice. Yeah, well, I share that big birthday with you, and I was also planning a year of travel, so I'm going to make up for it. We are definitely eventually I kept saying we're going to do in twenty, twenty one. I'm like, uh, maybe the latter half of 2021. [00:26:55.970] - Fadra So yeah. Still holding out hope. [00:26:58.550] - Kim So is there any, special area, you know you've, you've just been the one time. But I know with your research and probably what you plan, what about any favorite areas to stay because you said it's a huge region, so. What would you like, what towns or areas do you think are the the winning winning spots? So, you know, I've actually been up that way, you know, quite a few times because my I have family that lives up in Fishkill, New York, which is a little further south of the Catskills, and it's on the east side of the Hudson River. [00:27:29.620] - Fadra So my husband and I go up there almost every year and we do a lot of day trips. And so I've done things like hiking and biking and brunching at Mohonk Mountain House. I don't know if you're familiar with. [00:27:41.260] - Tamara Oh, yeah, I've wanted to stay there. [00:27:42.850] - Fadra Yeah, it's beautiful in New Paltz, New York. [00:27:45.160] - Fadra So that's a place where normally you can only go there if you are a guest. But, you know, fun little secret. If you make a brunch reservation, then you could spend the whole day there. You know, they'll let you in as long as you have brunch reservations or something. And so they have some great trails that go all the way around the lake. So I've done that. [00:28:04.960] - Fadra But this time I stayed further north in a town called. If you were to read it, it looks like it's Cock Sakey, which is a horrible name, but they pronounce it Cook Soki. . [00:28:19.270] - Fadra I thought it was really just the perfect location. It's not too far from Albany. It's a really easy drive. I live, you know, close to Baltimore and drove up there and it was actually a really, really easy drive. I thought it was a good location and it was kind of a good place where we could go to the east side of the river if we wanted to visit. Some towns over there like Hudson is a really cute town there. [00:28:45.370] - Fadra If we wanted to go as far south to a town called Kingston, we went there or if we wanted to stay closer, you know, there there is actually a town called Catskill. And then, of course, the town we stayed in Cocksackie and just in the little downtown area, there's not there's not a ton there. [00:29:03.040] - Fadra They're actually doing a lot of revitalization there. They have some investors coming in. And, you know, I think they're going to kind of try and make it a wedding destination. But there were some great restaurants we ate at this place called Chez Figata, and they were open for business. There was a great bottle shop, which we call them wine stores. But I guess up there it's a bottle shop and really great wines and just some small little little shops that we were able to walk to from where we were staying. [00:29:31.540] - Fadra So I actually really love staying there and I wouldn't mind staying there again, but I would love to explore the areas further west. So the Catskills go much further west, a little bit deeper into the mountains, and that's where you're going to find the resorts and the ski areas and so on. [00:29:49.450] - Tamara And what about Woodstock, Woodstock's part of the Catskills, isn't it? Or is that further South? [00:29:53.350] - Fadra It is. Well, it's further south, but it's very close to New Paltz. So, you know, Woodstock, as in the Woodstock is right up there, which was actually just a big, you know, farming area, big farm where they had it. [00:30:06.400] - Fadra So you'll find that there's pretty, how shall I say, crunchy towns up that way. [00:30:13.270] - Tamara Yeah, those are fun. Like you said, though, bookstore's like unique boutiques like I love that kind of things. [00:30:20.710] - Tamara I again I keep going back to like maybe more girlfriend getaway a romantic getaway. But at the same time like I know that we've done family things there and there are definitely I feel like there's like amusement park. [00:30:32.410] - Tamara I'm trying to think of like all the things my nieces and nephews did when we were on that family reunion quite a few years ago. [00:30:39.760] - Fadra Well, let me just say that right now, especially to the moms out there, we're pretty much home with everybody almost all the time. And it's OK to take a little time for yourself and do do a girlfriend getaway. I know it's easy to think like, well, if we're spending the time or the money, we should do a family trip. But it's really worthwhile to just kind of refresh and recharge and take that back home to your family. [00:31:09.310] - Tamara Yeah, I think especially this should be a year where there should be less guilt about that because we're like, oh, I never see them. We're so busy. I'm like, no, you've seen them. [00:31:18.910] - Fadra So we need to spend more time as a family. No, we don't. [00:31:24.880] - Kim I have to say, I was, you know, really thankful that we never, you know, embrace the RV or tiny home lifestyle, you know? But then I was thinking of our friend Brianna, who runs Crazy family adventure, and they've been living in their RV with her, you know, kids for six years now or something. And I'm like, I guess this pandemic's really not that different for them. [00:31:48.280] - Fadra So my friend Andrea Updyke, I don't know if you know Andrea, they recently bought an RV. By the way, RVs are hard to come by right now because because because of the pandemic, everyone's like, let's get on the road. So they bought an RV and they actually just did a trip out to the Grand Canyon from North Carolina. And it was a three week trip and I said, how was it, and she said, actually, you know, it's great, we had a wonderful trip, we all got along really well. [00:32:15.450] - Fadra But it's funny because when she's home and I think when you're away with your family, it's a little bit different. So she says when we're home, a lot of times they'll plug the RV in on their driveway. And she uses that as her little like oasis away from her family. [00:32:30.630] - Kim It's like her, she shed. I think it's funny. [00:32:37.050] - Tamara So, you know, we were talking about that its kind of good for the girlfriend getaway, a romantic getaway. I remember when Glenn and I were dating, when we lived in New York and we went up to the Catskills, we stayed to someplace I wish I could remember. [00:32:48.570] - Tamara It was like a B&B, but we stayed in like a loft in the barn and it was on a pond that was supposed to be like, I don't know where they filmed on Golden Pond or something like that. And I remember like rowing in a rowboat was so romantic. [00:33:03.150] - Tamara But there are you know, there are still some family resorts up there. Do you have any that, you know, kind of heard of or know about? I think the one that I've that comes to mind for me is Kartrite, which has like the water park inside, kind of like a great wolf kind of thing. [00:33:19.170] - Tamara But are there some more of those kind of the traditional like what used to be Catskill family resorts? [00:33:24.870] - Fadra There are there are about 25 different mountain resort. [00:33:29.760] - Fadra So if you're looking for a mountain resort in particular, they all have a little bit of a different focus. So some are that family oriented, all inclusive, where it's, you know, three meals a day or whatever it is. And they have all the family activities and everything is right there. Others are casino resorts and some are ski resorts. So I think it really just depends on what you're looking for. [00:33:53.620] - Kim It's good to know that there's probably a lot of options out there. [00:33:56.230] - Kim I seem to recall I recently wrote a post and I was referencing like some All-Inclusive in the United States, and I seem to recall one that's there. And I can't think of which one now, but I know it was in that upstate New York area and it's probably in that region, I'm guessing. And it's one of the all inclusive that kind of attracts families. [00:34:13.360] - Fadra Yeah. And when you when you mention all inclusive, I mean, here's the thing. Depending on the resort, I've stayed at a couple in the U.S., not up in the Catskills. And, you know, the one thing I want people to keep in mind is you're probably not going to get the all all inclusive experience at, say, like in the Caribbean. So it's it's a little bit different. Some that are more old fashioned and more family oriented. [00:34:37.200] - Fadra To me, they feel more like summer camp for families. Right. And then others, I've been to some I've been to some in the Poconos, and that's more like a cruise ship on land. So it's still not quite that Caribbean feel. But I think it's important to kind of reset your expectations for what an all inclusive is if you're doing something within the U.S.. [00:34:58.290] - Tamara That's true. Very true. It's definitely not a yeah. Not the same. You know, bring me my drink by the poolside. [00:35:04.820] - Fadra Exactly, exactly. [00:35:06.870] - Kim It's more of just like a meal package included. Yes, exactly. [00:35:10.380] - Fadra So it's also a good area for camping. And by camping, I mean tent camping. We talked about RV camping. I got to be honest, for years I wanted that to be my thing. It's not my thing. In fact, I mentioned my friend when she got an RV and it was just very exciting. And I mentioned it to my husband. I said, what would you think about this? And he looks at me and he goes, No. [00:35:32.850] - Fadra And I said, Really? He's like, Do you really think that's us? We're more like luxury hotel kind of people, which makes me sound sort of snobby. It doesn't have to be a luxury hotel, but I like places like you said, like something that's a little bit unique, like staying in a loft in a barn or something that's just that feels really clean and modern and comfortable. So we actually rented the first time ever that I stayed in an Airbnb and I absolutely loved it. [00:36:00.570] - Fadra And I'm really worried now because I don't know if all experiences are that good. So we stayed at a place called Heron's View, which is right on the Hudson River in Cocksackie. And like I said, it was an older home. They completely renovated it. So it still had character, but it was modern and clean and I just loved it. So I definitely recommend that. [00:36:23.610] - Fadra But again, I hate to keep referring to the P word, but in the time of the pandemic, these kind of things actually book up because a lot of people who maybe would have, you know, done their European vacation or gone on a cruise, they're not they're looking for these smaller, family oriented, more accessible type vacations. So these things actually fill up fairly quickly. In fact, the place where we stayed, Heron's view, I think for the entire month of August, it was rented by three working women out of New York City that just wanted to get out of the city. [00:36:59.460] - Fadra And so it wasn't really a vacation. It was just a place for them to stay while they were working. So you'll find a lot more of those kinds of things. So I definitely recommend planning in advance for whatever it is. That you want to do? [00:37:10.920] - Tamara Yeah, and we had that when we went to the Adirondacks over the summer and I definitely think it's going to continue. I think people are already looking at some of that this year, even if it's their backup plan. [00:37:22.580] - Tamara You know, like if other things can't happen, at least they have something. So the better properties, like you said, like the ones that have those unique characteristics or the views or the you know, they're lakeside like that type of thing, if you're looking for that. I agree. They definitely book it up early. Those I think it's going to continue to be a very popular way to travel throughout 2021. [00:37:44.600] - Fadra I think so, too. And, you know, I want to mention that because a lot of people feel like they can't travel. [00:37:51.470] - Fadra And, you know, of course you have to pay attention to state requirements and state restrictions and your personal level of comfort as well. But, you know, because we all work in the travel industry, you know, I want to make sure that people know that you can travel, you can travel safely. You know, it just depends on where you're going and how you're choosing to travel. I think we went out to eat maybe once, maybe twice. [00:38:15.440] - Fadra But we we did takeout and we brought it back. You know, we all made sure that we were safe before we traveled together. We brought takeout back. We brought board games with us. You know, we went to the bottle shop and got bottles of wine. And it was really about spending time with each other in a different destination. So you can do it. I don't think that you have to put off travel. You just have to figure out more creative ways to do it. [00:38:39.530] - Kim Yeah, that's what we're starting to see. I mean, these these towns and tourist districts, I mean, as travel writers, we're seeing what they how they've been impacted. And I don't know if many of them can go through another summer or even spring into summer facing this. [00:38:56.030] - Kim So I think it is smart for us to figure out where our level is and make sure, of course, that you're following any rules and restrictions, but then do what works best for your family and help try and support the local economy. I love that you talk about buying from the local shops. And, you know, we've been trying to do that locally, just eating at our local restaurants and getting order out instead of, you know, visiting as many chains and little things like that. [00:39:21.290] - Kim So I think there are ways that if you're comfortable and you're following the rules and restrictions Tamara do you know, does New York State have any current travel restrictions? [00:39:31.400] - Tamara They do. They have had for quite a while. So definitely check their website. They had some quarantine restrictions. There's a form that you need to fill out. Yeah. So definitely before you go, make sure you understand what the restrictions are. The good side is that I don't know what your experience was, Fadra, but I know when we were in the Adirondacks, it's like because New York has taken things very seriously, we saw a lot of compliance, you know, like we didn't have many issues. [00:39:59.420] - Tamara It was it felt like a pretty safe place to go, you know, so that I really appreciate it. [00:40:06.610] - Fadra I mean, I felt comfortable. But it's one of those things where if you're walking around town, you're having a mask on. Whether you're inside or outside, you just you wear the mask. And when even when we went hiking, there were people that wore masks. We chose not to wear them outside. But you make sure if if that's how someone feels comfortable, you give them a wide berth when you pass them on the trail, right? [00:40:29.090] Yeah, definitely. We we would usually have something that we would like pull up if you're passing someone. But I definitely appreciated the people that didn't have it and they made sure they stepped far off the trail and that was good. [00:40:43.670] - Kim So do you have any final tips that you'd like to share for, you know, if someone's thinking of planning a trip to the Catskills? [00:40:50.840] - Fadra Well, just to kind of recap some of the things we talked about, I'd say planning it in advance, you know, make sure there's availability for where you might want to stay, especially right now. Make sure you know what's open, whether it's something that's closed for seasonal reasons or it's closed because of, you know, pandemic reasons, because you don't want to get your heart set on something. You'd be like, oh, well, we can't do that now and then. [00:41:13.610] - Fadra You know, you don't know. You don't know what to do. I also want to mention that just because it's outside doesn't mean it's easily accessible. This is true, honestly, throughout the country, there are some trailheads that are closed primarily to reduce the number of people, you know, a lot of the national parks, which drives me a little crazy that, you know, some of the parking lots are closed and the shops are closed and some of the attractions are closed. [00:41:39.230] - Fadra But more importantly, the bathrooms are closed. That's the only thing that bothers me. [00:41:44.690] - Fadra But they do that because they want to kind of discourage, you know, large crowds of people gathering together. The other thing, and I sort of hinted at this is be prepared for any kind of weather. Even in the summer, it can get very chilly in the mountains. So we were staying right on the water and it it was actually nice during the day and then it would drop down at night. But, you know, a lot of places are used to having you know, we had a fire pit, we had an outdoor heater. [00:42:10.760] - Fadra So but we definitely brought layers as well. [00:42:14.340] - Tamara Yeah, very good point. I mean, even in the summer when you're in the mountains, it gets colder. Well, speaking of layers of question that we ask, all of our guest is, what do you wear when you travel? Do you have any favorite brands or gear? [00:42:29.400] - Fadra Well, for me, it changes by season. So, for example, in the summer, I love fit flops and I wear them pretty much everywhere I go. [00:42:39.000] - Fadra If I'm hiking, I'm more of a I wear new balance hiking shoes. If if I'm hiking, I don't do hiking boots, I do hiking shoes. But in the summer I do flip flops. This winter I've been wearing a lot of toms and I don't mean the little canvas toms. Toms makes some nice, they're kind of like sneaker ankle boots and I love them and I also have some wool clogs from earthier. Can you tell that footwear is important to me. [00:43:05.400] - Fadra I like to be comfortable. And I also did a little shopping in Kingston, New York, which is a little bit south of Catskill, and I bought a shirt from a boutique. Between us, it's the most expensive shirt I've ever bought, but I love it. It's from a brand called Faherty. It's hard to say f h e r t y. And I've heard that it's my new favorite shirt. It's just like it looks like it's a gray wool shirt, but it's just a button up shirt with just the right fit, the right stretch. [00:43:34.110] - Fadra And so like that's my go to shirt. [00:43:36.150] - Tamara Now that's what I love about boutique shopping, though. It's I mean, I rarely do it here because I can't afford it on a regular basis. But it's just so nice to have something that's unique and like you said, that has like that special fit. [00:43:50.130] - Tamara And you're going to remember going to remember where you got it. Going to remember the time that you had it with your girlfriends and all of that. [00:43:54.870] - Fadra So every time I put it on, I text my friends and say I'm wearing my special shirt today and I know exactly what I'm talking about. That's awesome. [00:44:02.820] - Kim Well, thank you so much for all these awesome tips. And why don't you let our listeners know where they can find you online? Sure. [00:44:09.390] - Fadra Well, I have a blog called All Things Fadra, and you can find it at all things Phaedra dot com. It's spelled FADRA and I also produce a lot of videos. So I do have I do have quite a few travel videos on my YouTube channel and that's YouTube.com/allthingsfadra and I'm a sometime podcast store where I talk about TV in movies and you can find all the info on that at StingerUniverse.com. [00:44:36.510] - Tamara And I've gotten a lot of tips from you guys on things to watch, so I enjoy listening. [00:44:42.480] - Fadra Pandemic is a perfect time to really dig into entertainment. [00:44:46.200] - Kim Can you believe how long ago Tiger King was like four years ago? That was still. That was it. [00:45:12.690] - Kim Yes, but Fadra, you have to make time for Bridgton, OK? [00:45:16.500] - Fadra Not with my son around though. [00:45:18.180] - Kim No, definitely not. Well, you know, if you're into entertainment, you can't pass that by. [00:45:26.790] - Tamara I kind of thought I was a teen drama kind of thing. And then I started watching. I'm like, oh, OK. [00:45:33.150] - Fadra Isn't it sort of like a period teen drama, though? [00:45:35.580] - Tamara Well, yeah, yeah it's yeah. It's like what the eighteen hundreds supposed to be. [00:45:40.350] - Kim Well I mean it's just back to like when I mean I think the problem is the fact that girls used to be married off when they turned 17 and 18 like you come into your first season and you better get married then are you going to be on the shelf, you know, type mentality, then you'll be an old old maid or. [00:45:56.100] - Fadra Yeah, well, we just got a new elliptical so I need something to motivate me and get my heart rate up so that if I don't work nights. [00:46:06.360] - Tamara So have you ever watched Reign? [00:46:09.540] - Kim No, I haven't is it ok? I need to watch that one. [00:46:12.030] - Tamara If you liked Bridgton then you will definitely like that. [00:46:15.750] - Kim I've been thinking I need to watch that, but I want to watch Queen's Gambit first and I just started. I haven't watched it yet and I was debating because I was trying to start watching the office, which Paul really liked the office years ago, like when it was out and I never really got into it with him, but a couple of times I would see some episodes. And so I thought I should go back and start it like season one and watch it. Yeah, but then I was just like I loaded it and I watched the pilot last night. I was like, there's like nine seasons and they're twenty some episodes per season. I mean, it's a lot. [00:46:48.210] - Tamara We've watched all of those with Hannah like a few years ago we went through it. But I will say like I love the office. But the things that Michael did that were cringeworthy then are like a hundred times more cringeworth now. And you're like, how did they ever put that on the air? You know? [00:47:06.060] - Kim I watched the first one. I'm like, oh my goodness, this is sort of hard to watch. [00:47:09.640] - Fadra Pretty sure I worked for Michael Scott, so. I think we've seen every single episode about 17 times, so we're well versed in the office. [00:47:22.480] - Tamara What I want is just a compilation of all of the practical jokes that Jim plays on Dwight like that would just make me laugh, like I would roll over, you know, just like watching an hour straight of all of those. [00:47:35.920] - Fadra You know what? Let me just give one plug for a little show you guys should watch. Speaking of the office, it's a show on Netflix called We Are the Champions. If you haven't watched it, it's I think like a six or seven is running through my head. Yeah, it's like a six or seven episode docu series by Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight on the office. And, you know, I'm mentioning it because it goes to all different parts of the world and and the country so we can kind of tie it back to travel a little bit. [00:48:03.820] - Fadra And it's really about unique competitions. It's like there's one and I think it's England, a cheese rolling competition where they roll a wheel of cheese down a very steep hill in this small town. And it's a big competition for who can get to the bottom and catch the cheese first. There's another one about the frog jumping competition in Calberas County, California. So it's just a really fun show. And, you know, even the kids would like it. [00:48:31.870] Great recommendation. Well, thanks so much, Fadra, for spending time with us. And yeah, we look forward to hopefully chatting with you again soon and maybe eventually we'll see each other again on a vacation or somewhere.. [00:48:49.360] - Kim Well, as always, thanks for listening. And we have something exciting if you go to on Instagram, if you go to Stuffed Suitcase or We3Travel, go to one of our Instagram pages and check out our post. [00:49:01.390] - Kim We are actually doing a giveaway with a lot of amazing books that will help you at least be inspired. If you are thinking of planning a vacation, it'll help you get some things figured out and started on your vacation planning. So go to our Instagram and check that out. [00:49:17.620] - Tamara Yep. And stay tuned, because next week we're going to be talking about tips for saving for travel. And I think this is a big one because as we've talked about before, like budget is certainly an issue. And I think we're going to be trying to share as many tips as we can in the next few episodes and from different people about ways to save on travel and for travel. We'll chat with you again in two weeks.

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181 Use Points to Fly Your Family for Free

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 19, 2021 43:34

The cost of a family vacation is one of the top factors preventing many families from traveling. When travel is safe, I know many families will be excited to take the skies and get away. This week we chat with Lyn Mettler from Families Fly Free to get her tips about saving on airfare and earning points to fly for free. Lyn Mettler is a longtime travel writer for US News, the TODAY Show and MSN, who in 2015 discovered a way to easily fly her family free all around the US, Caribbean and Europe. She now teaches other families her simple process through her Families Fly Free members program, podcast and blog. Tips to Help Families Fly Free To save money on airfare, book international trips at least six months in advance. Thanksgiving is a good time to search for flight deals for spring break or summer vacations. Search for flight deals using services such as Scott's Cheap Flights, Dollar Flight Club, Hopper, FlyLine, and SkyScanner. Being flexible with your departure airports, looking at major cities within a driving distance, will help you find better flight deals. If you are looking to use upgrade using miles, check the airline websites daily to see what seats may have opened up. Be sure to consider partner airlines from your preferred airline when thinking about where you might be able to fly for free. If you have an American Express Platinum card, you can book some hotels and airfares through American Express Travel and receive 5 times points on your purchases. Those points can then be transferred to partner airlines. Sometimes American Express or other credit cards offer a transfer bonus where you might be able to transfer your Amex points and instead of getting a 1:1 transfer, you might get a 1:1.5 transfer, offering up bonus points. Southwest is one of the best airlines to fly a family for free. The first step is signing up for a credit card to receive the sign up bonus, but only use it for things that you would buy anyway -- don't go into debt to fly for free. A Southwest Companion Pass is good on all flights during the year that it is earned, unlike some other airlines that have a companion pass but it is only good for one flight. Southwest is expanding their footprint of where they fly, offering many options for families looking to fly in the United States, the Caribbean, and even to Costa Rica. There is no need to sign up for tons of credit cards all the time. You can easily fly free with only about three different credit cards. Always book when a fare sale is happening to book with the fewest points, but realize that not every sale is a good sale. Luckily with Southwest you can always cancel and rebook when you find a better price. It helps to be flexible in where you want to fly and chase the best fare sales. Tuesday is generally the best day to book when the fares are the lowest. Keep checking even after you book and if fares go down, rebook those flights to save more points. For international flights to Europe, Aer Lingus typically offers the best fare and points deals. You can fly to Dublin and then from there, use cheap European airlines to hop to other places within Europe. If you fly Aer Lingus during the non-peak season, you can usually fly to Dublin for 26,000 points round trip. Chase Sapphire Reserve also offers great sign up bonuses. Aer Lingus, British Airways, and Iberia (Spanish airline) all use the Avios points program and it is easy to transfer points from Chase Sapphire Reserve to Avios and Southwest. Get Seven Ways to Earn Frequent Flyer Miles at home from Lyn Mettler. [00:00:00.120] - Kim Start banking miles now to fly later. [00:00:15.380] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.140] - Kim So, Tamara, we are going to be chatting all about airfare deals and a few tips for families that maybe are looking at having to buy a few tickets. And I think for a lot of us, now is a perfect time to start saving up some miles and points and looking at what we plan to do in the future when travel opens again. [00:00:49.580] - Kim So do you have any favorite little, I guess I would say, travel hacks that you've gotten on airfare, any deals that you've scored? [00:00:58.580] - Tamara You know, I was just posting something on Instagram recently about how I'm such an advanced planner. And all these people came back like, oh, I do it like still last minute. [00:01:05.870] - Tamara Like, we find an airfare fair deal and we go and I know that's how so many people travel. But we tend to be more focused on, like, OK, we want to go here and then how do we get there. There are definitely been sometimes though, where an airfare deal has led us where we're going, but maybe it's helped us narrow down. I remember specifically a few years ago it was right before Thanksgiving, which is a great time to look for airfare deals, especially international ones. [00:01:35.000] - Tamara And we were looking at a number of different cities. And Vienna came up as something that we could get to for about five hundred dollars or a little bit under per person. And we we just booked it like very much on the fly. And so that's you know, that's one that was definitely driven by that. [00:01:49.250] - Tamara And then a couple of years ago, we were debating between a few different destinations. I think it was like Japan somewhere in South America and Morocco. And then Morocco came up with like a five hundred dollar deal. And we're like, OK, decision made we are going to Morocco, you know? So sometimes that's how it's been. I mean, I definitely use different apps and things to track airfare. [00:02:10.160] - Tamara I just I think, as you know, I don't have the flexibility, as much on timing and such. And I am an advance planner, so I like to do it in advance. But I think my biggest tip, from that is just know when is a good time to buy. [00:02:26.900] - Tamara For us, when we're looking at spring break airfare or even maybe summer, especially international, Thanksgiving is a really good period because there are definitely a lot of sales and definitely with internationally, you want to be a good six months out from your trip because it's just going to get more expensive from there. I remember a few years ago, Glenn and I were kind of last minute for us, which was maybe three months before I decided to go to France in the summer. [00:02:54.680] - Tamara And I think we ended up paying eighteen hundred dollars round trip each for economy. And it was killing us, you know, that other times we've gotten that for five hundred. But it's just that's what happens when you can't make up your mind. But then you want to go to a particular place, you know. So it's like, either be very flexible with where and when you want to go or plan pretty far in advance. [00:03:17.420] - Kim Yeah, I remember that episode that we talked to with Dia Adams and that was Episode one, our very first episode. And one of the things she had said I remember is flexibility. You've got to be flexible either on where you want to go or when you want to go. And so I think that's a big thing that people don't always consider. And we also have talked to Monet with the traveling child and they get some great airfare deals. [00:03:41.360] - Kim But for them, it's kind of like what you saw with it just pops up where. OK, well, this is the cheap airfare. That's where we're going to go. And now we're going to plan that vacation based on that destination. [00:03:50.720] - Kim So I think I think there's some, you know, good, good thinking of that. And when you're locked in a little more, it limits what you can do. I think for us, one of my best deals was I did a lot of research for our trip to Japan, which didn't happen. [00:04:05.570] - Kim And I had figured out because, being an Alaska Airlines member, I found that there was a sweet spot with Alaska because they were partnered with Japan Airlines and I was able to score business class seats for us from Seattle to Tokyo nonstop. And I was so excited. Of course, now all those points are back in my account and we didn't get to use them. [00:04:26.060] - Kim But I remember faithfully stalking the Alaska Airlines app every morning I would wake up and load it and search to see if any availability had come up for business class on those Japan Airlines flights. And I would check Seattle, San Francisco, Oakland. I think a tip is that if you have nearby airports, you can kind of search and see. And I think that Lyn will give us some of that same info that if you can be flexible with a few of your departure airports on International, that can be a real benefit. [00:04:58.790] - Kim I know you've had that as well, where you've sometimes, of course, mostly with your international going out of Boston. It's a pretty major airport. [00:05:06.890] - Tamara So, yeah, the one when we went through to Morocco, we did go through New York. [00:05:13.940] - Tamara I was thinking of you and your Japan trip, when I was thinking about this episode, seemed like, well, you think about the times that we have done some of our best hacking work and we actually didn't get to take this trip. We didn't do quite the work that you did, but we had some Delta points which transfer to Air France. And then I had Glenn open up a Delta card. [00:05:35.000] - Tamara And then I had booked our Greece trip on American Express where you got five times points for hotels and airfare. And so then I took those points and transferred them to like his Delta. So we were doing our trip to Paris with three free flights. And so now we have all these Delta points where we have nothing to do with them because we we hardly ever fly Delta. Would like to it's a nice airline. It's just usually not something that is going where we're going from, where we're going. [00:06:10.880] - Kim Yeah, yeah. We have Delta points as well. Banked because I used our Delta points because Paul likes Delta and there a hub in Seattle after they had their big, nasty breakup with Alaska. But so we actually I wanted to fly home from Osaka. So we were going into Tokyo and out of Osaka. And the Japan Airlines flights connect from Osaka back through Tokyo. And whereas Delta goes direct from Osaka to Seattle. And so I booked I used, you know, Delta points and I transferred either Chase rewards or ultimate rewards membership, American Express points, I don't remember which one into Delta so that I could get us home and I got us in whatever like the economy. [00:06:54.110] - Kim But yeah, those now are in my account too. And I like I said, I am a loyal Alaska Airlines flight flyer, so I kind of am like, OK, when are we going to use these Delta points? Because I always choose Alaska when I can. But yeah, I mean, I love Delta too. [00:07:18.230] - Tamara Well it's funny because our American Express I had some points left and I used for Hannah and I to go to Marco Island in Florida and stay at the J.W. Marriott. This is not last December but the December before. And I then when I got refunded for my Greece hotels, they took away the points and now I have negative thirty five thousand points, so it's terrible. [00:07:43.760] - Tamara But then the other day as well, another bad news thing is in the last six months I've had to replace practically all of our appliances in the house, everything keeps breaking. Our entire travel budget right now is going towards appliances, it seems like. But the other day I went to use the dryer and it was not working at all. And they're ten years old. So I'm like, OK, so we went and we were buying a new washer dryer. And I'm like, I'm going to put it on my American Express because number one, you get the extra one year of like warranty extension and then I can make up some of those negative points. I need to get back to at least a zero balance. It's really kind of sad to see negative points, you know? [00:08:20.780] - Kim I know. Yeah, that's tough. The American Express card, by the way, right now, the platinum card, you get a thirty dollar PayPal credit. [00:08:28.250] - Tamara I got that. [00:08:33.620] - Kim I was paying our cell phone bill so I was getting the twenty dollar AT&T credit and then you know they need to give me something because we pay. What do we pay? I think it's four fifty a year for that stinking card. And I haven't stepped foot in a lounge for. [00:08:50.720] - Kim Well I guess March first I think was my last flight, I flew home from Disneyland on March 1st. It's crazy to think that. [00:08:58.820] - Tamara Yeah well American Express definitely needs to do something to keep their members happy for what we pay. [00:09:04.280] - Tamara I know they've been doing that. Uber eats, you know, credit instead of giving you an Uber credit, but I've never actually used it because the fees and things are so expensive. And I feel bad because it takes away from the restaurant. So we tend to just order directly from the restaurant anyway. So I've had almost a whole year of those credits just disappearing. [00:09:22.290] - Kim Yeah, we do the same thing. We try to do local because I saw a thing that showed the math that restaurants can make almost nothing from Uber and those delivery services. And so the other day when Paul took the girls skiing, I was like, oh, I'm going to splurge and I'll use my Uber credit because, you know, in December, I think it's like twenty dollars or something. That's more than the fifteen. So I thought I would splurge. [00:09:46.310] - Kim And so I logged on to buy myself a meal from a local Mexican restaurant, and it was just one entree and some chips and salsa and it was like over thirty dollars to have that meal and it's just ridiculous. And it still took them like 45 minutes to get here because I was like drop number three or something. So I had to heat my food up anyway. So I'd rather just order my food and go pick it up locally. [00:10:17.920] - Tamara And it's funny, because you think about these services, I'm like, aren't these what college kids are using, how they're going to afford that, right? [00:10:26.430] - Kim So hopefully they can give us some good deals and we can all keep stockpiling our miles for when we're ready to travel again. But I wanted to give people a heads up because we're going to be talking to Lynn about her tips. [00:10:39.210] - Kim But if you are kind of flexible on what you want to do and you are saving Miles or you're just searching for cheap flights, a few of the sites that I know that I can give you guys a little shout out about are Scott's cheap flights. [00:10:51.480] - Kim And I believe they have like a free one and then they have a premium version. And a lot of people that have the premium say that it's worthwhile. How that works for a family that needs to buy multiple tickets, I'm not so sure. And then the other really popular cheap flight alert deal site is called Delta Flight Club. And so I know that's another one that they send you emails, you know, throughout the day of all these deals. So that's a couple of you know, if you're looking for those cheap airfare deals, those are good. [00:11:19.680] - Kim But again, I don't know how well those work for families. I know Monet likes them, so they must work for families. [00:11:28.110] - Tamara I've used Dollar Fly Club and I've used Fly Line, which is someone that I started working with last year and lets you kind of build together your flight using different airlines. So if you're going international, you might do one hop on one airline and the other hop on the other airline. But it puts together in one ticket. So you don't have to deal with issues of them not checking you in or something like that you can check on all the way through. [00:11:51.300] - Tamara So that was a good one. And then I've used Hopper a lot in the past just to kind of keep an eye on things and of course, Google flights is kind of the the one that's taken over everything. [00:12:00.600] - Kim Yeah. Not that we like, you know, giving Google all of our information, but I do know that Google flights is good because you can put in your outbound city and then like the dates you want to fly and you can leave the destination kind of blink and it'll show you flight deals for all around the United States if you're in the U.S. and then also international deals. [00:12:22.080] - Tamara Yeah, it's a good way to take a look when you're not quite sure where you want to go. You know, you want to do it on a budget. [00:12:27.300] - Kim Exactly. And I know that another one that people have talked about a lot that I tried to use a little bit is called Skyscanner. [00:12:33.780] - Kim And I think Skyscanner is good. Again, it's a monitoring flight, so you can kind of monitor your destination and deals and stuff. However, I do see that Skyscanner has a lot of third party flight sale booking sites and a lot of them have very negative reviews. [00:12:51.840] - Kim And so I kind of stopped using it just because I feel like when you you find a great deal, then you see that it's that, you know, Big Bob's cheap airfare. [00:13:01.950] - Kim And so I haven't been, you know, totally on board with that. So just another heads up. For some people, Skyscanner works well. But, you know, a little bit of word of caution there. [00:13:12.330] - Tamara That's why sometimes the the membership ones are interesting because they're alerting you to deals and that's how they're making their money. But you don't have to necessarily book through them. You know, I always prefer and what we've talked about this a lot is booking direct whenever we can, just because it gives you more flexibility and cancellations or changes and all that kind of stuff. [00:13:32.760] - Tamara Well we've certainly covered different topics along the almost five years now that we've been doing this podcast, different things about traveling with points or travel hacking or how to find travel deals. So there's definitely episodes to go back and listen to, but it's always great to get people's perspectives. And so today we're going to talk to Lyn, and she works a lot with Southwest, but she has a whole program about helping families fly free. [00:13:57.810] - Tamara And I know that for many of us, that's, you know, we're dreaming about travel, but we may not have a big budget. So it's time to start thinking about it and planning it now so that when we can travel, you've got some some miles in the bank, so to speak, and you can absolutely take off somewhere. Let's talk to Lyn. [00:14:23.980] - Tamara Today, we're here with Lyn Mettler. She's a long time travel writer for U.S. News, The Today Show on MSN. And in 2015, she discovered a way to easily fly free with her family all over the U.S., Caribbean and Europe. And she now teaches other families her simple process through Families Fly Free Members program and her podcast and blog. So welcome, Lyn. [00:14:44.470] - Lyn Thanks for having me and glad to be here. [00:14:53.590] - Tamara Obviously, our listeners are interested in trying to fly free with their families. Maybe not right now, but for the future. I think everyone's budget has been a little bit crunched this year and we're looking forward to planning things in the future. So this hopefully will give them a chance to think ahead, plan ahead and start building towards that dream trip whenever whenever they can get it back out there. [00:15:18.850] - Lyn Like, now is a great time if you're not traveling to be getting your plan in place and collecting your frequent flyer miles and whatever you need, even if you're just sitting at home so that you can do that in the future, at least it gives you something to look forward to. [00:15:34.720] - Kim So Lyn, why don't you start off and tell our listeners a little bit about some of the awesome destinations that your family has flown for free to? [00:15:42.490] - Lyn As Tamara said, we really just try to focus on the U.S., the Caribbean and Europe. So the first trip we took where we totally flew free, all four of us was to San Diego. That destination holds a special place in our heart and we'd love to go back there. But we also love to go to National Parks. So we've been able to go to lots of different national parks we would have never been able to do by flying free. [00:16:06.820] - Lyn We like Disney. So pretty much every year we either go to Disney World or Disneyland. Of course, we we took our dream trip to Europe again that I never thought we'd be able to afford to do. And I was able to fly all four of us over there on miles. And then the Caribbean is awesome, too, you know, when you ready for some warm weather. And so my favorite Caribbean destination so far that we've been to is Grand Cayman. [00:16:29.970] - Kim I like Grand Cayman, have great beaches there. [00:16:32.730] - Lyn They do, and it's just feels very American. I think it's very especially if you haven't been traveled internationally, it's a it's an easy one to start. Yeah. [00:16:43.080] - Tamara Until you go to drive and then they're on the other side of the road. [00:16:46.560] - Lyn That's a little weird. My husband was able to do that, amazingly. But yeah, if you're not comfortable with that, then take a taxi or something instead. [00:16:55.260] - Tamara It's definitely easier than in Ireland. At least the roads are much wider. But I remember the first time we landed in Grand Cayman, I got into the into the taxi and the guy just like looked at me and I realized I was sitting in the driver's seat. [00:17:11.280] - Tamara So I imagine that took a lot of work. And there's four of you that you mentioned. So you're flying everyone for free versus, you know, getting one ticket or trying to do like the, you know, first class thing. You know, you are looking at flying a family, and that is definitely our audience as well. So can you tell us a little bit more about some of the travel hacking methods that you use? I mean, we've talked about this a couple of times with some other people on the podcast, but everybody has their own system and ways that they like to do things. [00:17:39.090] - Tamara And some are a lot more work than others. So I'd love to hear about your process. [00:17:43.560] - Lyn Sure. So my goals are, number one, to keep it simple and also to fly my whole family, as you said, to as many places as we can go. So we are not the people that are flying first class to Japan and fly back seat on a plane with the shower and glasses of wine. Like, I will hang on to the back of the plane if I have to, as long as I'm flying there free. So I really try to focus on the the fewest number of steps you can take yet to fly everyone free. [00:18:13.300] - Lyn So for us, that is taking advantage of a couple of travel credit cards and of course, earning the those big sign on bonuses where you get a whole bunch of miles just in one go, just by meeting the minimum spend. And I always teach people, you to only put your everyday expenses on. There are things that you were already going to buy anyway. It's never about getting yourself in debt or buying things you shouldn't be buying. [00:18:43.230] - Lyn I'm a big proponent of Southwest Airlines. So I think for families who again, want to keep it simple and want to travel a lot of places, they have the simplest system to do that. And one of the big reasons is the Southwest companion pass. So if you're not familiar with that, that is a pass that you earn and it lets you bring one person with you on as many flights as you want to take while you have this pass for free. [00:19:10.020] - Lyn Aside from the five dollar and 60 cent government security fees, you have to pay per person. But other than that, you're not paying an airfare, let's just say. And that pass is good, not just once, because some airlines have companion passes, but they're good one time. This pass is good from the time you earn until the end of the following year. So that falls into my category of like the one thing you can do to save significantly on airfare, because if you don't ever have to pay for one member of your family to fly, like, there is just no better deal than that going. [00:19:44.250] - Lyn Then to get that pass, you need to earn one hundred and twenty five thousand Southwest points to do so. And then you can use those points to book everyone else in your family free. So you've got one person you don't have to use any points or dollars for and the rest of you uses that one hundred twenty five thousand points to fly free. So it did take me about a year to kind of figure out the best process and do all the research and read all the blogs and all of that until I really streamlined how we do it. [00:20:13.860] - Lyn And that is kind of basically how it works. And I would say the first year that I figured this out, we were able to take our family of four to six different places over the course of a year for about a hundred dollars per trip. And I've now figured out how to do that for less. And that hundred dollars comes from that five dollar and 60 cents per day per person. [00:20:36.870] - Lyn You have to pay the annual fees for just two cards that we used. And then we ended up buying a few points at the very beginning to kind of get us to where we needed to be to actually redeem a free flight. So it's pretty amazing what you can do. And again, with Southwest, a lot of people don't like that you can't pick your seat. So you might be in the back of the plane. But who cares if you're flying for free. That's my thought. [00:21:00.720] - Tamara Yeah, well, and you guys have teens, too. So it's if you're not all together, isn't maybe not as big of a deal. [00:21:07.650] - Lyn Right. And we have never had a situation where one parent and one child couldn't sit together. That's how we do it. We just break it up into two and two. But I've even forgotten to like check in, which is how you get your boarding order on Southwest. And I was literally in the very back and we still could sit two and two and their flight attendants are awesome. So, if for some reason you have a young child and you can't find a seat together, they'll figure it out, it's like they'll get someone to switch with you or something, you know? [00:21:34.930] - Kim I was going to mention also like just four people on the West Coast that, you know, side note, the Alaska Airlines card has a similar type of thing, not quite the same. Not quite the good deal. But you can if you have the Alaska Airlines credit card once a year, you get a companion certificate where you pay ninety nine dollars plus those taxes. [00:21:54.310] - Kim And so for families, that also is a good thing if you're on the West Coast a lot and doing that kind of trip because, you know, you can pay 100 hundred bucks for what would be a 500 to 600 dollar flight, so that can be a good savings. [00:22:14.470] - Lyn And is that just a one time? [00:22:16.340] - Kim So it's every year it's an annual. It's just the one time. Yeah. But I would say a lot of families, it seems they take that one spring break or summer trip. We all travel a lot more than that. But for some families it's a good plan. [00:22:36.850] - Lyn Absolutely. [00:22:37.990] - Lyn And Southwest has added a lot of destinations in 2020. Well, they're going to be adding mostly in 2021. So they're expanding their footprint, which I like too. So if you happen to be in a place where they don't fly, they're starting to branch out a bit more. [00:22:51.640] - Kim Yeah, and Southwest is also just good for, you know, if you are buying the other tickets as well. They're so convenient with the no change fees and free checked baggage and all that is is definitely a plus. [00:23:05.260] - Lyn I've gotten to where I could hardly book another airline not knowing that I could change it if I wanted to, because we just book all the time with points because we think we might want to go somewhere and it's a good deal. [00:23:18.040] - Lyn And then if we a kid gets sick or we decide we don't want to do that or whatever, easy. We just cancel the points, go right back in our account. No penalty. You know, it's just I have a peace of mind. So, I mean, in the way I show families how to do this is you really just work with the Southwest program for the U.S. and the Caribbean so you don't have to worry about is this airline a partner with this airline in which cards, you know. I like I use three travel credit cards for 90 percent of our free travel. [00:23:50.560] - Lyn So I'm definitely not someone who recommends, you know, because it's very easy to get turned into, oh, this card has an amazing offer and I should get it because it's a limited time and whatever. And I think we've all made, like, the mistakes early on of getting a card. We wish we hadn't because it seemed like a great deal. So I have a very specific like here's the cards I recommend get them in this order and then you're done, you know, so you don't have to worry about. [00:24:15.820] - Tamara Yeah. We're so busy. I listen to a couple of points people and they talk about the spreadsheet that they have, you know, the bonuses. And when you turn off this one and that one and I'm like, oh no thank you. [00:24:28.450] - Kim Yeah it is. They have like sticky notes on the credit cards in their wallet. So they're like, OK, I'm at a restaurant, I'm using this one this time. And they change the sticky notes like every month on which credit card they use. And it's overwhelming. It's like you said, Tamara, it's totally like couponing. [00:24:42.040] - Lyn I mean, like you can get into you can doing it that way if you want, for sure. You know, some people love doing that, but yeah, for busy moms, I mean, we're working and managing kids and helping parents and, you know, trying to take care of ourselves. Like we don't need to be spending hours on this. [00:24:57.730] - Tamara You know, we want simple so that it works. [00:25:00.340] - Lyn Keep it simple. [00:25:01.570] - Tamara Well, in one question I have for you is you use Southwest and we fly southwest quite a bit. And I also I enjoy that airline because I know some people are uncomfortable with the method of lining up and getting on in the open seating. But I actually like it because it feels very orderly instead of everyone trying to cram in there and fight with the entire rest of the plane. So I kind of like that part of it. And I've gotten used to, you know, how things work and, you know, waking up early or whatever to try to log in right away to to get my boarding order assignment. [00:25:39.400] - Tamara But one of the things that I found about Southwest is like if you fly, you know, at off times, like you can find some really amazing, you know, like one way is for 7000 points or these kind of really amazing, amazingly low point rewards. [00:25:55.690] - Tamara But you have two teens. So I imagine you also have trouble like working around school schedules a little bit, what do you find? [00:26:02.890] - Tamara Do you really look for destinations that have low points in terms of flying there? Or are you just like, here's where we want to go and when we want to go? And we'll we'll book whatever it takes. [00:26:16.750] - Lyn So a key part of this and I have a program called Families Fly Free where I teach everyone my process and I give them, like, updated information that they need to know in real time to keep doing this. So first part is you have to kind of learn the process. Second is what you're asking about, how it's booking the flights for the fewest amount of points possible, and so we literally just flew to Las Vegas in October to drove into Utah to do the national parks. I flew us there for 2700 points per flight. [00:26:50.890] - Lyn You you learn to you have to buy when they're having a sale. And we alert our members always when they have a sale almost every week. So they're not all good. So we tell them it's a sale, but we'll tell them this is a good sale. This isn't a good sale because Southwest lets you book in points and change with no penalty. You need to constantly check and see if the price has gone down. And when I say constantly, as much as you want, at least once a week is what I suggest on Tuesdays, because that's when airfares tend to be lowest. [00:27:18.100] - Lyn So check and see if the price has gone down. And if it has, it's really easy to rebook on their website. And if you've booked on points, those points go right back into your account. So we have saved tens of thousands of points just by doing that alone. And most people miss that. They don't realize you can keep checking and keep adjusting and changing if you find a better deal. So and then, yes, I do look for destinations that are fewer points from my home airport, which is Indianapolis. [00:27:48.580] - Lyn And we also are willing to drive and we do this. A fair amount will drive up to Chicago, which is about two and a half hours from us. If the airfare is significantly less. So that deal to Las Vegas, we actually did drive up and flew out of Midway because it would have been like seven thousand points per day from Indianapolis. And if I can pay twenty seven hundred points, that's another free trip my family can take right there. [00:28:17.470] - Kim Well, we've definitely talked a lot about the United States and those kind of destinations. And with Southwest Airlines being, you know, mostly a U.S. and Caribbean airline, what about Europe? You know, I figure that's much harder. And you said you have been to Europe. So do you have any little tips for families who are thinking of a dream European vacation? [00:28:36.160] - Lyn Yeah. So my favorite way to fly to Europe, which I think is it's the cheapest number of miles and the easiest way to do it is on Aer Lingus, which is the national airline of Ireland. And they have a really good deal where if you fly during their off peak season, which is actually two thirds of the year, so it's most of the year except for the peak summer months, spring break. And like the holidays, you can fly for twenty six thousand miles roundtrip from several major cities in the U.S. to Dublin. [00:29:11.530] - Lyn So it's like Boston and DC and New York and Chicago and San Francisco, lots of major cities. So you may need to get to one of those major cities. And I recommend flying Southwest or using a companion pass to do so. But again, we just would drive up to Chicago and then we fly over to Dublin. And then once you're over in Europe, it's really cheap to get a flight out of Dublin like. So when we took our big trip a couple of years ago, we flew to Dublin and then we just used points to fly on into Paris. [00:29:42.010] - Lyn And then we flew Ryanair, which is a really cheap discount airline in Europe for like three hundred dollars for all four of us to go from Paris to Bologna. And that was with all they have there, one of those that charge a bunch of fees, but that included all of the baggage fees and everything. And then we flew points from Bologna back to Dublin. And so I was able to do that with one card sign up, which happened to be the Chase Sapphire Reserve. [00:30:09.250] - Lyn When they had that card first came out, they were offering one hundred thousand points if you met the minimum spend. So my husband was able to get that. And that was enough for all four of us to fly to Europe, which was amazing. So pretty simple, really, because it was one card sign up and then one airline. [00:30:27.040] - Lyn And Aer Lingus uses Avios, which is we're talking about partner airlines. They are partners with British Airways and Iberia. So if you have, you can transfer or use for any of those three airlines. And the way I like to earn them is with the Chase ultimate rewards because Chase ultimate rewards transfer to Southwest super easy and they also transfer to Aer Lingus super easy. So that accomplishes my goals of US and Europe. [00:30:57.370] - Tamara When we went to London three years ago, we flew Aer Lingus through Dublin. We didn't do it with points we paid. But just even from a cash standpoint, it was definitely cheaper than, you know, the direct flights to London, which, you know, it's added a little bit of time, but not really that much time. [00:31:13.720] - Lyn And we just made like a day trip out of it. We stayed in Dublin actually for two nights and just saw the sights of Dublin for a day just to check that all our bucket list, you know, so that's a way to do it, too. If you want to spend a little bit of time in Ireland. And Dublin is a really, really nice airport and. Flying out of Dublin, you actually go through customs before you board in Dublin, so you don't have to do it when you get off in the U.S., which is another great benefit. [00:31:39.540] - Tamara And they even have Global entry and everything there, too. [00:31:42.750] - Kim They have a lounge there, too. [00:31:48.240] - Kim Well, yeah, I think that that's I think what you said, there's two parts to that that I'll just quickly mention that I thought stood out was just be flexible and kind of be willing to look beyond just the traditional I'm going to fly from Seattle to Tokyo, you know, even though that's a common flight. But you know what I mean. You know, like you guys going to Chicago and then going to Dublin and using that as a jumping off point, I think that's really a tip for people, is to be a little more flexible and see if you can even get from one place. [00:32:15.750] - Kim Like I know a lot of times I have looked when we were planning that Japan trip, I looked out of LAX in San Francisco because, you know, sometimes those flights to Japan were a little cheaper. And for me to get from Seattle to L.A. or San Francisco is pretty easy. So definitely be, you know, thinking outside of the box on that. And then I think one of the things I'll quickly mention is what you said about that people need to be aware of is something like Chase and the American Express cards have kind of those I don't know what the term is used, but they're universal points that can be traded into other networks and programs. [00:32:50.070] - Kim And sometimes that can be handy for families who aren't loyal to one brand and want to kind of spread things around. So I think that that's that's something for people to be aware of, is that there is a difference where when people talk about travel credit cards, sometimes it's with one hotel like Marriott or it's with one airline, you know, like Southwest. But other times it could be just the American Express or the Chase, which are kind of universal points that can be traded in. So I think that's something for people to be aware of. [00:33:17.250] - Lyn Yeah, I'm a big fan of the flexible points for that for exactly what you're saying. Now, if you're loyal to one airline or to one hotel brand, you really use it a lot, then you do need to probably have their card because you'll get some good perks for doing so. But then pair that with the flexible card who whose points travel to your favorite programs, you know, and Chase Ultimate Rewards works well within my system. And then it happens to transfer to some hotel programs as well. Should we have plenty of points and want to use it for that also. [00:33:49.290] - Tamara Well, definitely lots to think about when it comes to planning some trips. I know you'd also mentioned the Caribbean. Now, would Southwest also be your preferred airline for getting to the Caribbean? [00:33:59.280] - Lyn Absolutely. And because you can bring someone free with you. So, yeah, that's a great deal. [00:34:06.540] - Tamara Now, what are some of the islands that they go to? [00:34:09.930] - Lyn A lot of different places in the Caribbean. Mexico is a is very popular among families. Of course, Grand Cayman, Turks and Caicos. We've been to the Dominican Republic on Southwest. They go to the most recent like Jamaica. Yeah. And Costa Rica. [00:34:29.760] - Lyn So, yeah. Lots of choices there. And of course they now fly to Hawaii. So for lots of families, that's their dream bucket list trip is to to go away. [00:34:40.950] - Tamara And so for when we just talked about Hawaii too. And that is from California. Right. So if you get yourself to California, then you connect there. [00:34:49.680] - Lyn Right. You will have to connect in California. But yeah, you can fly from major U.S. cities to connect in California and then over and there's, you know, good ones like San Francisco and San Diego, where you can if you want it again to stop and make it kind of hang out there for a weekend or something and then hop on over to Hawaii. So it's not such a long flight. That's a good option, too. [00:35:13.140] - Kim So you mentioned it took you about a year when you first were starting. What would you say for the average family starting out? Maybe they're a family of four. How much time should they allow for kind of earning points? How does that how does that look for an average family on, you know, what would be realistic to think if they want to have a vacation and they're going to buy all their airfare with points, what does that look like, do you think, from a time perspective? [00:35:37.410] - Lyn If you know what to do and what steps to take within two to three months, you can be flying around the U.S. in the Caribbean. [00:35:46.650] - Lyn For Europe, I'd give yourself four to six months of time to to get those points in order. But the key is you need to know what steps to take and what order. [00:35:56.850] - Lyn And you can definitely search online and discover a process for yourself. But like I said, I've mapped mine down just for families who want to travel to those destinations. It's really pretty simple if you know what to do when. [00:36:14.260] - Tamara And you've talked about the companion pass for Southwest and I seem to recall like is that only offered as a special promotion at certain times of year and is sometimes limited? Like I remember there is one that I was going to do, and I didn't live in a state where it was offered or something like that. Are there sometimes restrictions that you need to look out for? [00:36:32.500] - Lyn No, you can earn one any time of the year and it's good from whatever you earn it till the end of the following year. So there's no location restrictions. All you have to do is earn these hundred and twenty five thousand qualifying points. Boom, you got it. [00:36:48.880] - Kim When they first launched their Hawaii one Tamara, I think that's what you're thinking of. They did it to just California residents when they first launched that, you know, and they will have like special promotions where you can earn a companion pass by just meeting a minimum spend or by flying six flights. But the typical process that you can use at any point in time is to just get those qualifying points in and then you just have your pass. [00:37:14.200] - Tamara There was a year when my husband was flying to Milwaukee every week and he was always flying Southwest. So he made A list but for some reason we never went through getting the companion pass, like now thinking back now, why did we not take advantage of all that Southwest flying? [00:37:30.820] - Lyn It's it's totally the number one thing you can do to fly free. That's simple. You know, if you if you just do that, you're in good shape for a while for even for a whole thing. [00:37:43.690] - Kim So do you have any final tips that you want to share with our listeners, just about, you know, helping families fly free? [00:37:51.760] - Lyn One thing I want to make sure families know is that you can earn frequent flyer miles for whatever your preferred airline from home. That was the big light bulb moment for me. When I started into this, I thought people who flew a lot is who earned frequent flyer miles and I didn't fly a lot. So how can I earn frequent flyer miles? [00:38:13.210] - Lyn So, I mean, making sure, you know, there's a lot that you can do from home right now, like taking advantage of airline shopping portals, which just means you start your online shopping in their portal and then you earn points for things you were going to be buying anyway. You earn frequent flyer miles or travel points, right. Or dining at restaurants. [00:38:33.340] - Lyn All of the airlines have dining programs where you can earn points just by getting carry out at your local restaurant or eating there. There's a lot of different things. In fact, I have a list on my go to travel gal dot com blog of 101 Ways You Can Earn Southwest points and very few of them are by I mean certainly you can earn them by flying, but that's not the way I recommend doing it. We get all of our points mostly without flying. [00:39:00.250] - Lyn They're earned without flying is what I should say. I also have a list of seven different ways you can start earning frequent flyer miles from home that you can download and that you can find that at families fly free dot com slash vacation mavens. So that's just for you guys. It's a PDF that you can download and it's easy things you can start doing today even if you're not traveling and start accruing those points for your future travels whenever you're ready to travel again. [00:39:28.420] - Tamara Perfect. And we'll definitely link to that in our show notes because. I think that's really sort of us these days, like I can't remember things, so to have something written down that we can follow. That's what I mean. [00:39:41.480] - Kim Great. So we will start wrapping up by asking our question that we ask all of our guests. And that is, what do you wear when you travel? [00:39:48.590] - Lyn Yes. I can't wait for this. Been waiting for this question. So my favorite thing are Ofos flip flops. They were originally designed to be like a recovery shoe for runners. And I had a son who was a runner and I just happened upon them at the running store one day and I was like, these are the most comfortable, supportive things I have ever put on. So I got myself a pair and I have one. I'm on pair of number three. I think now take I wear a mountain about a year, but I have worn them all over the world, like at Disney, on the cobblestone streets of Europe, on the beach, you name it, you know. [00:40:25.640] - Lyn And I love them because they're not your flat flip flop where you're, you know, that hurt your feet if you do much walking like these are more supportive than any sneaker or tennis shoe I've ever owned. And I at one point I had plantar fasciitis and that was the only thing I could wear that kept my feet from hurting. So I absolutely loved those. And they now come in all kind of different stylish designs and colors because people beyond runners have now have now figured out how great they are. [00:40:52.100] - Tamara Yeah, I actually have a pair of their recovery slides and my husband had gotten them first and we we laughed at him that he called them recovery slides. But then I tried them on one day and I'm like, oh, these are so comfortable and I have plantar fasciitis too. And I needed something for just around the house. Like I can't just walk around barefoot, you know, it just will bother it. So I started using those as well. And I noticed last time I was in a running store, they have all pretty styles as well. [00:41:19.760] - Kim I wonder if they have closed toed ones because Lizzie has a lot of trouble. She works in retail and she's on her feet like her whole shift and she comes home with a bit of the plantar fasciitis, like her feet are swollen and really hurt. And so I wonder if those would be if they have those toed ones that they do. [00:41:35.030] - Lyn They do. And they look like they now they have boots. So I wear them in the winter for my boots. And they have kind of clogs which are but they're made out of material, not they're super soft kind of foamy stuff. But I think they have close toed ones, like the flip flops too. [00:41:52.190] - Tamara So maybe you can just remind our listeners where they can find you online. [00:41:56.810] - Lyn Sure. You can find me at Families Fly Free dot com. And then I also have a podcast where I teach families how to fly free, and that's called the Families Fly Free podcast. And then you can find me on Instagram as families fly free and then Facebook and Twitter is go to travel go, which is my blog. So great. [00:42:19.730] - Tamara Well, thank you so much for sharing some of your process and your insights. And I'm sure everyone that wants to get more into this can go and download the PDF that you mentioned. So thank you for that as well. [00:42:30.620] - Lyn Great. Yes. I love to show people how to fly free. Everyone needs to know how to do it. [00:42:35.660] - Kim Thanks so much, Lynn. We appreciate you all the tips. [00:42:42.860] - Tamara Well, thanks for joining us for another week on Vacation Mavens. We are coming up on our five year anniversary. So if you guys have any suggestions on a special episode that you would like to hear or recaps or anything like that, please let us know. In the meantime, stay tuned. Our next episode in two weeks is going to be all about travel to the Catskill Mountains in New York, which is a great destination in the winter and the summer and the fall. Not so sure about the spring, but we're going to find out more next week. [00:43:12.080] - Kim Thanks for joining us and we'll chat with you again soon. Take care.

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180 Visiting Hawaii During Covid

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2021 31:16

So many of us are dreaming about a tropical escape right now, but is it possible? This week we talk with Amber Mamian, from Global Munchkins, about her recent family trip to Hawaii. Find out what to expect in terms of testing, travel restrictions, and hotel and activity protocols when you are visiting Hawaii during COVID. About Amber Mamian Amber Mamian is a family travel expert, founder of Global Munchkins, and ambassador for Oprah Magazine who resides in Southern CA with her husband and 5 children. You can follow her family's adventures and more on Instagram at @global_munchkins and on her site GlobalMunchkins.com. Get Amber's guide to planning a Hawaii vacation here. What to Expect when Visiting Hawaii During COVID The state of Hawaii currently has a 14-day mandatory quarantine for visitors. However, you can bypass this quarantine if you have a negative test within 72 hours of your arrival. But note that Hawaii only accepts tests from certain companies so you need to do your research regarding testing in your area to determine how you can get a test before your trip, and whether or not you will get the results back in time. You can find the information you need about required testing on HawaiiCOVID19.com/travel. Amber had a good experience with an at-home testing kit and processing from Vault Health. You take your saliva-based test at home in front of a doctor or nurse on Zoom and then overnight them the kit and you have the results in 24 hours. You also need to fill out a mandatory Hawaii travel and health form before you arrive. After submitting your forms, you receive a user account with the state of Hawaii. There you can upload the PDF of your testing results. Once you have submitted your testing results, you are given a QR code to show on your phone when you arrive, checking in at the hotel, and whenever asked throughout your trip. If you do not have a negative test upon arrival, you have to do the full 14-day quarantine, even if your results come in during that time. Some airlines, such as United, will make you show your negative test results to board the plane. Delta is currently still keeping the middle seat open but we aren't sure how long they will keep that in place. When you arrive at the airport they will check every person's QR code and contact tracing form. For hotel check in, every adult may need to be present to show ID and your QR code. Restaurants adhere very strictly to the rule of only five people at a table, so even if you have a large family, you cannot sit more than 5 people together. Once you are there, Hawaii doesn't have a lot of visitors right now so it is easy to social distance when on the beach or taking hikes. The Disney Aulani has done an excellent job of explaining safety protocols, providing signage and sanitizing stations throughout the resort, and guests were very good about complying with those protocols. The five person rule was also enforced at the pool, where no more than five people from the same family/household could sit together. At some resorts in Waikiki, pool usage is restricted to certain hours with reservations required. You will likely need to show your QR code when visiting attractions or doing activities outside of your hotel. It is helpful to use sites like Yelp to read up on which attractions and restaurants are still open and their hours and protocols. Don't be surprised to find many restaurants closed or require reservations. It is helpful to stay in a villa or a place with a kitchen so you can prepare some of your meals. Be sure to stay on top of updates in the time leading up to your trip Make sure you research your state's travel restrictions and quarantine requirements on return. Also make sure you read your cancellation policies for everything you book because things can change quickly. Amber loves the swimsuits and travel clothes from Albion Fit. She also loves blazers from Chicos. Read the Episode Transcript [00:00:00.150] - Kim Dreaming of a tropical escape? Find out what it's like to travel to Hawaii right now. [00:00:16.930] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.750] - Kim Tamara, it is the New Year. So happy New Year. [00:00:34.540] - Tamara Happy New Year. Yay! We all made it to 2021. [00:00:37.690] - Kim Yeah exactly. Is it going to be better? Like let's hope, let's hope that 2020 is in the Blinder's, right? [00:00:44.020] - Tamara Yeah. Yeah. I mean it has to be at some point. Right. Like it may not be immediately better but we're going to get there. Yeah, definitely. [00:00:50.800] - Kim Well the vaccination news is certainly hopeful and good. So hopefully that's a good signal for all of us that we are all going to get back to traveling soon. And I know that today we're going to be talking about a pretty awesome destination that I think a lot of people are probably dreaming about, especially since when we're recording this, it's winter for most people. So I know that I'm dreaming of warm weather at this time of year. [00:01:13.600] - Tamara There's a foot of snow out my window, so I'm definitely dreaming of warm weather right now. [00:01:18.830] - Kim So we're going to talk to Amber all about Hawaii. She and her family took a little trip there, and it definitely looks different right now. There's a lot of regulations. And, of course, everyone's going to take their own consideration on whether they're comfortable traveling and what that looks like for them and their family. But we just wanted to give you guys an insight into what Hawaii travel looks like right now with the regulations about covid. But in the meantime, if you are dreaming of more Hawaii destinations, I think Tamara has some of our old episodes that she's going to give a little mention of. [00:01:51.130] - Tamara Yeah, definitely, because this episode is very much focused on what it's like to travel right now. And if you are just new to traveling to Hawaii and you want to have some more of a background on maybe some of the different islands and what it's like at the different hotels, if you go back to Episode 75, we talked to both Kim and Kristi Marcelle about the Disney Aulani, and we went into some very detailed descriptions about what that resort is like. And that's what Amber is going to talk about also. And if you go all the way back to Episode 55, we talked to Mary from The World is a book about Hawaii. And we were talking about, I think primarily Maui and the Big Island and Oahu. So I guess we still need to do an episode on Kauai at some point, right? [00:02:37.600] - Kim Yeah, we should have been there. It was a short trip, but I have been there. [00:02:42.010] - Tamara That's definitely where I want to go and when I would return to Hawaii. But anyway, yeah, let's chat with Amber and see what it it was like to be there now. [00:02:58.850] - Tamara This week, we're here with Amber Mamian. She is a family travel expert, founder of Global Munchkins and an ambassador for Oprah magazine. She lives in Southern California with her husband and her five children. And you can follow her family's adventures and more on Instagram at Global_Munchkins or on our site at Global Munchkins.Com. So welcome back to the podcast. Amber. [00:03:19.520] - Amber Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be back. [00:03:22.240] - Tamara I know it's been a really long time. Last time we talked to you, it was about cruising, I think maybe Disney cruises, but it certainly has been a long time since any of us were cruising, so. And in some ways, it's been a long time since any of us have traveled. But you have traveled recently to one of your favorite destinations. Now, I know you guys being on the West Coast go to Hawaii pretty often. But this year it looked a little bit different. So I was hoping that we could talk to you to learn a little bit more about what is it like to go to Hawaii now? Like what does it take to get there? What are the requirements? And really what is it like on the ground, you know, for someone that is considering a trip? So can you walk our listeners through, like, what are some of the testing requirements that are necessary to visit Hawaii right now? [00:04:06.200] - Amber Absolutely. So the good news is once you are there, it's fantastic. Their numbers are really low. It felt very safe the whole time to get there. It's a little tricky. You just have to kind of do your homework and your research. Currently, the state of Hawaii has a 14 day mandatory quarantine. However, you can bypass that if you do, if you take a negative covid test and 72 hours before your departure, it's important to look because the state of Hawaii only accepts tests done from certain companies. [00:04:36.180] - Amber So you do have to go on to their website. It's Hawaii covid-19 dot com forward slash travel and everything's listed right there. But basically, you get your test done 72 hours before departure. And we went through a company called Vault Health, which I highly recommend. [00:04:50.660] - Amber It was an at home saliva test, which was really easy on all of us, including my youngest, who's seven. You do the saliva test in front of it like a doctor or nurse on a zoom, and then they overnight the test kit back to the company and they have your results back in 24 hours. In our case, which was amazing because we're able to upload those results before we ever departed. And then beyond the testing, you're also required to fill out a mandatory state of Hawaii travel and health form. [00:05:17.990] - Amber And it's for every member of the family, which was a lot because there's seven of us adults are required to fill out their own forms. But I was able to fill them all out for the kids. And once you have those done, you have like a user account from the state of Hawaii. And when you get your results back from your testing, you actually upload that PDF right to that website or with your user, you know, your account, I guess I should say. [00:05:38.330] - Amber And once that's uploaded, they email you a QR code and that is like your ticket of gold. You know, when you land, you're going to need your QR code. I mean, you're going to possibly need it for the resort. You stay at activities you do. So you definitely need, like your your QR code golden ticket. That's what I'd call it. [00:05:57.120] - Kim Great. And can I just mention, is it true, though, that Kaui is one of the islands, they actually have have been able to opt out, so they still require a mandatory 14 day quarantine? Is that correct? [00:06:08.400] - Amber Yes. And thank you for saying that. And you also you cannot island hop either. So, like, you know, we were planning on going to Oahu and Maui instead. We only travelled to Oahu because we would have had to either do another 14 day quarantine when we got to Maui or we would have had to retest again while we were in Oahu. [00:06:26.430] - Tamara That's really good to know. And I think it's really interesting that you used that private company, because I know with cases on the rise, like testing, not everywhere is it's not possible everywhere to get testing if you're asymptomatic or just for travel anyway. But even if you can, there's not really guarantees of how quickly you're going to get it back. And I can't even imagine making that investment and then not getting a test back in time. [00:06:52.170] - Amber And there's a new law, and I probably should have looked that before we talked, but my cousin traveled on her honeymoon. It did not. Her husband got his test results from CVS and before the flight, and she didn't they only had to quarantine in the hotel for a day or two. But since we've been I was told by the hotel that now the state of Hawaii, if you do not have a negative test upon arrival, you have to do a full mandatory 14 days instead of waiting for your test results, come in a day or two. [00:07:22.020] - Kim I heard that as well. And I also heard that I think somebody said CVS might be actually opting out or they're not allowed anymore, but I'm not sure on that. But check that out. So definitely make sure you know who to use. And then I've heard lots of horror stories where they say it'll be back in a certain amount of time, but the people are still like they're ready to fly out and the results aren't back yet. [00:07:44.430] - Amber So, yeah, I mean, we went with a really big group and we all used Vault health. I think there was 14 of us total because it was my brother and his family and my parents and all of our tests came back within twenty four hours from Vault Health. So, I mean, we were really impressed with their service grade. [00:07:59.850] - Kim So beyond just now that everyone knows what the requirements are, what was your experience going navigating like the airport and then your in-flight experience, of course, your West Coast, Southern California. So your flight time is probably only what, like three and a half hours? But what's the experience like? [00:08:17.130] - Amber Yeah, it's like five or six hours. Yeah, it's still quite a long flight. So in flight I was really nervous like a couple of days before. We haven't flown since, but it was our first flight and I did like that everybody on the plane most likely had a negative covid test. My mom flew united and they had to show their covid test just to get on the plane. [00:08:40.620] - Amber And so that made me comfortable. And then once we were on the plane, I was really impressed. We did switch airlines. We originally with one airline that stopped doing the middle seat being open. So we switched to Delta and paid a little bit more just to have that comfort of knowing the middle seats would be open and we'd have a little bit more space on the plane. So I do appreciate the Delta did that. The planes were spotless and I did talk to Delta and they sanitized the entire flight before every single departure. And then they wipe down all the seats and sanitize in that way. [00:09:11.430] And then when you board the flight, they give you another Purell wipe to wipe down your seat yourself. So between all of that I felt pretty good on the flight. I know that they change their air filtration systems often, they said even more often than they are required to. I talked to them about their testing program. I was really impressed with that. For all of their employees, they're able to do even the rapid test in the lounge at the airport at LAX, which I liked. [00:09:37.710] - Amber And, you know, it's funny to be on a flight, honestly, and have you know, I was worried about the kids having to wear masks the whole time and it ended up not being a big deal at all. [00:09:46.690] - Tamara That's good. I mean, hopefully by now people are kind of used to it, although that's a long period of time, especially if you're trying to, you know, take a drink or have a snack, you know, quickly or something like that. [00:10:00.820] - Amber I was so nervous, we had the regular mask and then I had bought the clear, like shield. So when we were eating, I had the kid, I just pulled those out and so when they would have the mask off, I would let them have the face shield. That way they could still be somewhat protected. But on the flight home, I guess we felt so comfortable we didn't use them, to be honest. [00:10:18.420] - Kim That's good to know. And did you, I'm assuming did you pack your own snacks because they aren't doing or are airlines still doing like drinks and snacks service? [00:10:27.570] - Amber So I can only speak for Delta because that's all I've flown since covid. But what they gave you is a Ziploc bag. It had a Cheezits in it. The cookies, I can't think of what they're called the you know, the cookies they always have on planes, the bottle of water and a single use Purell. That was it for the entire flight. So we definitely knew that going into it. They email you and Delta stays in contact and is very upfront about the fact that there's not going to be those services. [00:10:52.410] - Kim So we were able to pack enough snacks to be fine. [00:10:55.650] - Tamara I think I'd have to pack a whole backpack full of water bottles. [00:10:59.550] - Amber Yes, we did. [00:11:00.720] - Amber We definitely did pack a lot of water because they give you, like, those little bottles to like it is about a teeny bottle. And they did pass them out. [00:11:08.700] - Amber I mean, they pass out water several times. But I do normally drink just so much water on a plane that I had to pack, you know, several water bottles, which you have to buy after you enter the terminal. [00:11:21.270] - Tamara So it sounds like once you have your QR code and it's your golden ticket that you're able to get into pretty much everywhere. But are they doing any additional screenings like temperature checks or forms or anything like that, like when you check into your hotel or go to restaurants? [00:11:36.000] - Amber It depends, I think, on each place. So when you land, it it seems kind of funky, like you were waiting a really long line, almost like you're going through like a customs. And they check each family's QR codes and they have to check that. You filled out that form from the Travel Hawaii, which has all of your contact tracing, what resort you're going to be at. All of your information is there. [00:11:55.980] - Amber Once they double check that, then you're free to leave. Same kind of thing, though, when you show up to the hotel, just a little bit like extra steps. Like I think they needed to know our flight home. We again had to show the QR code. They needed to see each adult. We arrived really late at night and I was in the car with the kids waiting and I thought my husband could just check in, but they needed to see each adult in the party and have ID and your QR code. [00:12:16.890] - Amber So I think you just have to be ready to have to show those forms, especially with every adult. It seems like they need to check every adult. The only other thing that we saw when we went out at restaurants, especially being a larger party, being there with my brother and my family, even my own family, to be honest, because we're seven is the only allow groups of five at like restaurants so that they were very strict about almost every restaurant we went to. [00:12:39.060] - Amber We were never able to sit together. They said the state of Hawaii could get them in trouble. And so, you know, obviously a very respectful but I think it's important for people to know in advance because I had my kids been younger ages, it would have been really difficult for us to have, you know, all of seven of us at one table and one. [00:13:06.710] - Tamara Meanwhile, teens are probably like, yeah, we're fine. We're fine. [00:13:10.110] - Amber Yeah, it was pretty much the teens at one table and our younger seven year old with us. [00:13:16.060] - Kim So beyond everyone's getting tested before they come in and then the basics of just wearing masks when you're outside and around others and social distancing and cleaning things like that, is there anything else that maybe feels different or seems different about Hawaii vacation right now? [00:13:31.600] - Amber Honestly, no, we had such an amazing vacation, it was such a huge breath of fresh air, I think we're pretty used to all those mandates now. That's the way we're living at home. [00:13:40.480] - Amber So to have to do that there didn't feel too awkward. And it was just, you know, the initial getting through the airport, there was a little bit different and nerve wracking once we were there. It felt really good. And there's a lot of open space in Hawaii where and it's very empty right now. So we'd be at beaches where there was hardly anybody there and definitely nobody within, you know, I mean, 20 or 30 feet of us. [00:13:59.920] - Amber So in those situations when we were hiking and stuff, we take our masks off if we were alone. So it felt really good to us. [00:14:07.430] - Tamara That's nice. It's good when you can feel, you know, like you are having a vacation, you are having something that's a break from the norm, I guess. [00:14:17.030] - Amber I mean, it definitely felt like a complete vacation. We didn't want to come home. [00:14:23.110] - Tamara So I know you say to the Disney Aulani, which is one of your favorite hotels, we had recently talked to Rob Taylor from two travel dads and he talked to us about what it's like to go to Walt Disney World right now and what a good job they were doing. So I'm hoping that you had the same experience at Aulani. But what was your experience like? Was it something where you were feeling very comfortable, where the things you think they could be doing better? [00:14:44.500] - Amber I thought that Aulani did a fantastic job. I mean, one of the reasons we chose to stay at the Aulani was because we had heard so many positive things about the way that they were doing things at Disney World. And we're big fans of Disney and we've been to Aulani. several times. Everybody at the resorts seemed to be not even have to have the rules be enforced. I think that at check in they let you know what the rules were there signs around everywhere and hands sanitizing stations are throughout the resort. [00:15:08.170] - Amber And thankfully, all the guests seem to just comply. So it's not like I was in a situation where I saw people having to, you know, be scolded or anything for not wearing masks. It just seemed like people were respecting each other. And I did speak with other guests who stayed at other resorts in Waikiki who were telling me that at their resort, the pool had like, you know, hours where they had to make a reservation to go to the pool and that it was a little bit more strict. [00:15:33.340] - Amber Once you're out at the Aulani, if you're in the pool area, you don't have to have your mask on. All the chairs are spaced within six foot distance. So there is that gathering rule again. So for my family, a little complicated because you can't have more than five people together in a group. So for larger families, I think, you know, that's something to pay attention to. But I think most families are probably about the size of five people. [00:15:57.310] - Kim And are they doing a lesser occupancy rate? We've been to the Aulani and the chairs are normally completely full on a sunny afternoon. So are they is doing an occupancy decrease so that there aren't so many people at the pools? [00:16:16.480] - Amber Yes. So there is an occupancy decrease and I cannot remember what it is, but it is a reduced occupancy. And like you said, normally Aulani is very, very crowded. It it was very empty. You could you know, you didn't have to, like, run down to reserve chairs in the morning. There would be good seats available if you strolled into the pool area around two o'clock in the afternoon. [00:16:36.040] - Amber I did notice that it seemed like locals come in on the weekends. So if I was choosing to stay there I would definitely try to book a more of a midweek stay like a Sunday through Thursday stay just to avoid that crowd. We decided to leave the resort on those days to avoid having it crowded. But it still was less of a crowd than I was used to at Aulani. [00:17:01.520] - Tamara Now, what about when you went off property? Were there things that you had to keep in mind there, like did you need to make advance reservations or were there additional protocols that were in place there? [00:17:12.320] - Amber So we did several activities, including a cage dive with sharks, which they did check our QR code. And we also visited Waimea Valley, which is like a like a nature center. And they both of those places checked our QR codes before allowing us in. And they obviously made sure that all the normal restrictions of mask mandates and social distancing were told to us before we entered. But other than that, things seem to be pretty normal. We did try to keep in touch with what was going on as far as like on Yelp and stuff, trying to see what restaurants were open because some places have limited hours and some places were just closed completely. [00:17:48.560] - Amber I think that food was probably a tougher challenge than activities. [00:17:52.910] - Kim Yeah, that's what Tamara and I have noticed. You know, all the trips we took this summer is the restaurants and dining is the hardest part about travel right now just because, like you said, some restaurants haven't been able to keep their doors open, which is limited, the options that are open and then others are, you know, operating at 50 percent or something. And so getting, you know, the mass of people in and out is just really hard. [00:18:17.500] - Tamara So is a little side chat about what the heck with a shark cage dive? [00:18:22.860] - Kim I can't believe I'm ignoring it. I'm ignoring it and ignoring it. [00:18:27.200] - Amber It's in a cage. I was really nervous and I almost canceled before we went. I it was all my brother. He's the thrill seeker. So he wanted to do it. And then my husband, because they become competitive, and then I have an 18 year old son who has to prove himself when the guys are doing something. So I felt like I better go and make sure everybody's OK because I would have had a harder time sitting out, I think. [00:18:53.690] - Tamara Especially if you're like on the boat and you're looking down and seeing, like, fins circling your loved ones. [00:18:58.730] - Amber Right. Right. I mean, it's like I'd rather just be in it with them, but it ended up not being scary really at all. [00:19:04.550] - Amber And I know that it still is definitely, you know, a risk hopping into that cage. But it didn't feel as scary as I thought it would. [00:19:10.850] - Kim Well, the you guys weren't in, like, South Africa, right? You know, like the, you know, Great Barrier Reef, where it's like great whites, you know, bull sharks. [00:19:20.240] - Tamara It's like on our honeymoon we were in Bora Bora. And one of the things that we had signed up for was a shark and ray feeding. And my husband, who loves to dive, is just like, oh, they're just black tip reef sharks. And I'm like, they're sharks. Their face looks like sharks. Like when they're swimming right at you, it's a shark. And that's all you can think about. [00:19:36.710] And I remember the night before I am was cancelled, I was up like all night. I was terrified. And then it was no cage, you know, it was just like we kind of made a line, like behind a rope, kind of like you're snorkeling and it's like made a line and then they feed them right in front of you. So the sharks come and they swim like directly at your face. And it's like last minute they turn and they go back and oh my goodness, I lasted for like a couple of minutes and I'm like, I'll be in the boat. [00:20:07.820] - Tamara OK, well you're brave. I just had to ask about that. [00:20:12.290] - Amber So I'll get to food. I was going to say one of the reasons we chose to stay at Aulani was we stayed in their villa, which has a small kitchen. And so we're able to stock up at Target before we got to the hotel. So we were able to do some meals, you know, within our little hotel room, which was super convenient and highly recommend, like maybe Airbnb stays or something like that, or resorts with kitchens would be nice right now. [00:20:40.520] - Kim If people don't know about Aulani, it's actually about would you say it's about forty minutes away from Honolulu, from the airport. [00:20:46.730] - Amber Yeah, I guess depending on your travel, because it's like kind of a suburb of sorts. [00:20:50.810] - Kim It's called javelina, but there's like a Costco right there too nearby. [00:20:55.250] - Kim And so it's it's definitely convenient if you can splurge for those kind of villa. I think that shopping and having food that you can make in your room is a definite plus right now. So I have an awkward question that I've heard some talk about it in some travel groups. But did you feel like there was any kind of negative vibe from the locals towards tourists that you know? [00:21:27.890] - Kim I know that it's kind of a double edged sword. It seems like Hawaii really wants the money that tourism brings. However, I know a lot of locals are kind of stressed and don't want tourists coming to their island and putting them at risk. So did you have any weird vibes that you felt like the locals weren't welcoming? [00:21:41.870] - Amber So we personally didn't. And I don't know if it would be, you know, whether or not you're following, you know, the restrictions and being respectful, like because to us, people were more than grateful to have a say. I like the small restaurants where, you know, over accommodating. They were, you know, making sure that they cleaned everything and thanking us. And so I had. Kind of the exact opposite, so it's probably just hit or miss, depending on who you run into, I guess. [00:22:07.200] - Tamara Yeah, that's good, I mean, it's it is a difficult challenge, I think it's a challenge for any tourism area and really every state to, you know, in that you need the economic boost that tourism brings. [00:22:19.740] - Tamara But, you know, it brings along some risk, too. So it's good to hear you weren't, you know, met with kind of open opposition, but more open arms. [00:22:29.340] - Tamara Well, since we have you on the podcast, we've talked about Hawaii on a few other episodes, but maybe we can just quickly get some of your thoughts and some of your favorite, you know, things to do in Hawaii and stuff. But do you have a favorite island? I know this time you went to Wahoo, but do you have a favorite overall? [00:22:46.130] - Amber It is such a hard question, I think, of why all the Hawaiian islands that I've been to or to just Kauai, Maui and Oahu Island, Kona are amazing. [00:22:53.840] - Amber I really like Oahu. I think that it's great. It's got that iconic North Shore and some big resorts. And if you're looking for more of the hustle bustle, it's there. But Maui is probably my ultimate favorite. It's just more relaxed than North Shore, less populated. And I love the road to Hana. That's really cool. Yeah, I've been to I still haven't been to the big island, so that's kind of the one I want to get on my bucket list. [00:23:17.020] - Kim But I've been to Oahu, Maui and Kauai, and I just love Oahu because I kind of I do like all the resort hotels, but I think the Kaanapali Beach area on Maui can bring that. And like it's like you said, kind of it's it's a little lesser, you know, a little more stepped back, which is kind of nice. And the road Hana is pretty awesome. [00:23:38.440] - Amber Right. And then Kauai is like so lush and beautiful, but it's like I feel like even more deserted. Kona is like the big island. It was a trip to me because it's more volcanic. So I remember getting off the plane and being like, it's all black. Yeah. And there's goats like mountain goats like where's the kitchen? Where's the palm trees? I was really confused. You drive up to the resorts and you'll find the beaches there. But that one is definitely different. Very different. But you can see a live volcano, you know. Right. [00:24:05.620] - Tamara The only time I've been to Hawaii, we did the Big Island, mostly because we wanted to see a live volcano. But I had the first, you know, thought when I first got off because I'm like, hey, where's all the lush, you know, like this? But then we did Maui, too, and we definitely found it there. But I loved both. And I would just love to go back to now I need to do Kauai and Oahu. [00:24:25.990] - Kim So do you have any other favorite hotels in Hawaii that you stayed at or because like you said, Oahu for family is Aulani certainly is a nice draw. So any other favourite hotels for your family? [00:24:37.270] - Amber I Think that the best contender for Aulani to me is Grand Wailea in Maui, they have like interconnecting slides in the world, only water elevator. It's absolutely incredible. [00:24:47.770] - Kim Yeah, they are pretty nice there. [00:24:49.000] - Kim We stayed at the Sheraton, I think, and they have like a sister property now. I can't even remember it. And they have like all these pools that run throughout the resort and stuff. [00:24:58.900] - Kim And I've heard Grand Wailea has a similar kind of just the expansiveness of the pools and the grounds are really fun to explore, right? [00:25:07.850] - Amber Yeah, it's great for families. [00:25:10.720] - Tamara Well, what about some of your other favorite things to do with kids, maybe we can just touch on a couple in Maui and Oahu, since those are your top islands. [00:25:19.810] - Amber I mean, we go to Hawaii really to, like, turn off and relax. So a lot of times we just hit the beach and surf and boogie board and then go like hiking and snorkeling. I think in Maui, like I said, the road to Hana is really great. It wasn't really great when my kids were like four of them were really young and I didn't love it. But as they've gotten older, that's a really fun trip. [00:25:39.430] - Amber And obviously getting to North Shore and Oahu, we always see sea turtles and it's, you know, so fun to watch those incredible surfers surf there, too, [00:25:48.880] - Kim and get some shrimp you got for Giovanni's shrimp truck [00:25:53.140] - Amber or Macky's you know, it's like a big rivalry. [00:25:55.680] - Amber So you got to, I guess, eat from both and then choose, which is the one that you're going to support [00:25:59.710] - Kim and then get some Massimo's shaved ice afterwards. [00:26:02.860] - Amber Exactly. Yes, that is exactly what you need to do. [00:26:06.890] - Kim Cool. So do you have any final tips for listeners who are considering a visit to Hawaii during these times of covid anything to keep in mind that they should be aware of? [00:26:17.920] - Amber I think just do your homework, make sure you stay on top of updates, because unfortunately things do change, you know, as numbers change. So I think that way you're just prepared, you know what's going to happen. Make sure that you talk to the resort before you go so that you know what their policies are as far as, you know, the pool and stuff like that, activities that you're going to be doing. [00:26:35.180] - Amber So you have proper expectations when you get there. And then I mean, I know like sponsorship with Vault health, but I just was so impressed with them. I keep telling everybody about their services. [00:26:46.720] - Tamara And then I guess I think it's probably important to make sure when you're doing that research about Hawaii to understand your home state, you know, and if they have, you know, travel restrictions, I mean, luckily, Hawaii is the one state that whose numbers aren't going up as much. [00:27:00.640] - Tamara So maybe they're not on your travel restriction list. But, you know, to know if you have to quarantine when you get back or anything like that, [00:27:06.670] - Amber that's a really good point. And I think all of that, yeah, I was going to say, like California just went on lockdown now. And I think also a cancellation policies. A friend of mine had booked Kauai and was having trouble with their Airbnb, canceling that trip after California had a lockdown. Hawaii now has restrictions, not letting people in. So I think just, you know, making sure that you go in fully aware, like really make sure you're reading everything, asking questions. [00:27:29.830] - Amber I think it's important right now because travel can be done. [00:27:32.440] - Amber It's just a little bit more work. [00:27:34.940] - Kim Yeah, and just like you said, I know Delta has promised to keep the middle seats empty, I think through March and I know Alaska is through January, they're keeping their middle seats empty. And they are I think those those statements come with an Asterix, though, sometimes like if the flight ends up canceled or sold out or I don't know how that works, but it's definitely something to keep in mind also is getting their things to research and be aware of good will. [00:27:59.450] - Tamara We have a fun question for you. And I always think of things I don't know you may not want me to say a fashion icon, but you're always very stylish. And so I would love to hear from you what some of your favorite brands are. What what do you like to wear when you travel lately? [00:28:14.600] - Amber I've really loved Albian Fit, and it might be because I just did, you know, Hawaii. But their travel clothes are ones that I've had for years and they, like, don't go out of fashion. So I love it because I can just add a couple of pieces and, you know, it changes that the outfit I like to do those capsule wardrobes. And I think because they sell really high quality basics that are good for travel that they're kind of my go to. [00:28:34.190] - Amber And their swimsuits, honestly, are the best fitting swimsuits I like the most comfortable in those. [00:28:39.530] - Tamara Oh, that's nice. I love places that you can go to where you don't need to bring like so many extras and you like jackets and things like that because then you can fit more in your bag, you know. [00:28:50.390] - Amber Yes. I want it so easy. Yeah. One of my favorite outfits I always see you in Amber that you always pull off so well. It's just like a T-shirt with a blazer [00:28:58.580] - Kim and you wear the cutest little blazers. And every time I try to look for like a cute, like t shirt blazer combo, the Blazers are always like too long or too structured. So I don't know. I'll have to ask you later where you where you find your cute little khaki colored beige blazers. [00:29:13.550] - Amber I get them at Chicos. Everyday I get teased, but I always find, like, super cute like wraps. I think they call those ones like Rhona's or something like that. I might be saying it wrong, but those and blazers at Chico's and you can usually find them on sale too online. [00:29:27.950] - Tamara Thanks for your tips. That's great. So maybe we can just remind our listeners where they can find you online. And I imagine with California's recent lock down that you're not going anywhere anytime soon. But, you know, at least they can follow you online and you always post so much from your adorable family. [00:29:46.670] - Amber So there's still some trips because that's what I did. I decided to give away trips all through twenty, twenty one. And the travel is good through like twenty, twenty two. So, you know, somebody can travel someday since I'm but some are twenty, twenty one. [00:30:02.840] - Amber Right. People can follow us at global underscore munchkins on Instagram and then global munchkins dot com online. [00:30:11.200] - Tamara Perfect. Well, thanks so much for being on to share your recent experience with who I am glad that you guys had a wonderful time. I'm glad that you came back relaxed and ready to face whatever the next few months bring. [00:30:22.570] - Amber Right. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Thanks so much, Kim. [00:30:29.910] - Kim Well, thanks for joining us for another week here at Vacation MAVEN's. And you definitely want to tune in next week. What are we going to be talking about Tamara? [00:30:36.610] - Tamara We are going to be talking to someone who's going to teach us how families can fly free and that includes to Hawaii. [00:30:42.940] - Tamara And you can do that just within a few months. [00:30:45.520] - Tamara So, yeah, tune in, because I think we're all thinking about how to make our budgets stretch and still keep our travel dreams alive. So tune in on the next episode. Talk to you then. Bye bye.

covid-19 new year california world disney talk zoom hawaii south africa target restaurants oprah winfrey alaska southern california airbnb id west coast delta disney world costco visiting hawaiian maui vault qr yelp cvs chico blazers honolulu kona lax oprah magazine massimo north shore oahu great barrier reef kauai big island asterix wahoo chicos bora bora waikiki sheraton blinder cheez its ziploc purell southern ca aulani macky rob taylor disney aulani kim it vacation mavens announcer welcome kim well we3travel waimea valley stuffed suitcase

179 What to Expect at Ski Resorts this Winter

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2020 42:03

Like everything, skiing is going to look a little different this year. This week on the podcast, Kim and Tamara talk about what to expect if you are planning a day trip or ski vacation this winter. Be prepared to make reservations, limited capacity, longer lift lines, and new lodge and shuttle procedures. Get the scoop! What to Expect at a Ski Resort in 2020-2021 Due to Covid, most resorts will ask you to book reservations in advance, which will make going for a last minute weekend trips harder. Priority for reservations has been given to season or EPIC pass holders. You are really going to have to do your research for the resorts you will want to go and find out what the rules and regulations are for booking your trip. You will also need to look into how you are going to get there. If you are going into a different state for your ski vacation you will also need to look into what that state's rules are for coming and going. Many ski resorts will not be running parking shuttles and/or mountain shuttles. If they are running, it will be at lower capacity and the wait times might be longer. A lot of Ski lodge eateries are going to require reservations. So you will need to plan out your runs more so that you don’t miss your reservation. Some places will also have a time limit that you will even be able to spend at your table. So no relaxing with a drink while you wait for your family to be done with a lesson or run. It will be easiest to stay in a ski in/ski out condo where you can make your own meals. If you or your child are going to need lessons, you will need to make reservations in advance. There likely will not be any full day ski programs for kids. Social distancing is a challenge in ski rental shops. It may be easier to arrange for ski rentals from a local ski shop and bring them with you. Alternatively, you can rent from someone that will deliver to your accommodations. You should look at your local state park websites and see if they offer any other winter activities like snowshoeing, sledding or even just playing in the snow. Mentioned on the Podcast Ski.com Episode 117 - Ski Resorts in the US for Family Travel Episode 37 - Planning a Family Ski Trip Read the Full Transcript [00:00:00.090] - Kim What to know before hitting the slopes this winter. [00:00:15.130] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.340] - Tamara So Kim, winter is here and we are starting to think about what we're going to do outside since we know there's not a lot to do inside besides stay in our home. And I think you guys have really started to enjoy skiing a lot. Do you have plans to go skiing this winter? [00:00:47.160] - Kim Yeah, so we well, we had originally been thinking of going to Jackson Hole and that trip has been canceled, obviously. And so we are definitely sticking close to home. Thankfully, we have a local ski resort that's only about an hour and 15 minutes away that we like to go to. And it is an Epic Pass resort. [00:01:06.090] - Kim So we every year we kind of buy a four pack of passes for this resort and we go, you know, about once a month, sometimes twice. And so, yeah, we're planning on doing that again. It was a little different this year than what we've done in the past. So that was kind of the biggest change for us. But we're still planning on, you know, going skiing. We just know because of the changes, we're not able to just go, hey, do you guys want to go skiing this weekend? [00:01:30.360] - Kim Because, and that's what I'll go into I guess, is we bought our Epic Pass, which we normally end up buying them in October, that is when they start going on sale for the cheapest prices. [00:01:40.620] - Kim So it's kind of weird to be thinking that far ahead. But they start promoting and telling you to like buy in I think even August and September, they start selling the passes and by October they're giving you like, OK, it's the final day. You know, you need to get this purchased right away. And you can buy an Epic Pass that covers like a whole bunch of the Vail Resorts across the West Coast and even a lot of resorts in the East Coast also. [00:02:04.020] - Kim Or we buy just a four pack to our local resort that's close by and it's a little bit cheaper because it's a smaller resort. So we did that this year and got that purchase in advance. But then we got a notice that we had to make reservations for what days we want to go skiing this year, which is the big change, I think, that people might not be prepared for. [00:02:24.570] - Tamara Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've seen you know, I've kind of been tracking what's going on, even though I don't think we're going to be going skiing because there is actually one ski hill in Rhode Island, which is where you go to learn to ski, you know, initially. [00:02:39.510] - Tamara And I think Hannah did the black diamond after like six lessons, you know, so it's it's not much of a of a ski experience unless you're a little tiny kid learning to ski. [00:02:50.610] - Tamara But I've been listening to what's going on. And definitely it seems like many of the mountains are moving to this reservation system. I listened to a whole session from Ski Vermont, with all the different ski resorts kind of talking about their changes for this year. And it seems like some of the smaller mountains are not requiring reservations, but definitely all the bigger ones are. [00:03:14.930] - Tamara Not only that, but they're giving priority to reservations for pass holders. I think some of them are opening up for reservations on like December 8th. But the pass holders have already made all their reservations. So you're basically left with the leftovers at that point. [00:03:32.550] - Kim Yeah, that's been the biggest thing that the emails were suggesting and that I've seen is that pass holders have priority. So people who have like Epic Pass and Icon Pass and stuff like that. [00:03:41.820] - Kim And even, you know, if you have a season pass for that ski resort, they're giving those pass holders first option to book their their days. [00:03:52.050] - Kim So if you're planning on just buying a, you know, regular ski pass, you might have some trouble on the weekends getting a date. So it's definitely something you need to look into and be prepared for. [00:04:03.630] - Tamara Yeah, I know that in the past we've mostly done ski weekends when we go to Maine or Vermont and those you book in advance anyway because of your accommodations and you kind of hope for the best weather. But for more local things, sometimes I've been tempted to like go on Lifttopia and buy some passes in advance. [00:04:21.510] - Tamara But then I'm like, well, suppose like the weather isn't great, you know, because it varies so much and I've always like held off and now it's like, well, you're really locked in, especially, you know, it's one thing if you're making it like a weekend and it's if you if it isn't a great ski day, maybe the resort has like other things to do. [00:04:39.180] - Tamara But for you guys, where it's just like, OK, we're driving an hour and 15 minutes, we're going to ski this day, you know what? If the snow is terrible, what if it rains? There's like a lot more risk involved. [00:04:54.210] - Kim There's definitely a lot more risk because we've had those days where it's like, oh, it's you know, especially later in the spring here, out here by us, we they have something called Cascade Concrete. And as it gets towards, you know, February, March, the snow gets really wet and the way it falls really heavy and fast and wet, it's it's just like you get locked into place, like you can't even move. One time in March, our in-laws are visiting and they actually know where they had to carry like Lizzie and Mia down the hill because they couldn't even ski or move. [00:05:26.940] - Kim And their body weight isn't enough to break through the the thickness of the snow. So, yeah, I mean, if you pick a day and it's snowing heavy like that and you've got that really wet snow, you're kind of just wasted your pass day and you don't have as much freedom to go, oh, let's not go today because, you know, it's a lot of wet snow. So that's kind of a bummer. [00:05:45.740] - Tamara Yeah, we have that issue a little bit differently, but we get a lot of, ice and, things like that or, sometimes like last winter, there wasn't a lot of snow, so you could get up there and it's only the snow that they've made and that might be really icy. And I don't I don't really like skiing when it's only the snow that they've made because it's bare next to where your are skiing. [00:06:07.730] - Tamara And I know one time we were up in Okemo in Vermont, like one of the first weekends that they were open and they had such a base built up on the trails. But if you went off the edge of the trail, it was like you were just dropping down a few feet onto the ground. And it was also a weekend. It was like the first weekend ski racing was open and they were one of the first ones open in the state. [00:06:31.050] - Tamara So like all the ski racers in the in the whole state were there on the slopes, meanwhile, we're not confident skiers. And you got ski racers, zooming by you and. Yeah, this drop off the edge. We're like, oh, this is not an ideal experience. We're used to going in January, February like that. Not early in the season. [00:06:50.000] - Tamara Yeah. So I think that that's definitely an issue and it's but there's no way around it, you know, unless you are going to one of the smaller ski mountains, that doesn't require a reservation. [00:06:58.280] - Tamara I think really as with everything when it comes to covid and travel right now, it's doing your research during your research, not being a last minute planner and making sure that you're really reading through the website and the protocols and you're planning in advance and which, again, planning in advance a little bit difficult these days when you're like, I don't know what travel restrictions will change or will I be healthy and, you know, all those kind of things. [00:07:25.880] - Tamara So it's definitely it's a challenge. But hopefully, when people are out there, you'll feel like normal and you can enjoy the outdoors, the views, the exercise. [00:07:38.450] - Kim I think skiing would be the perfect kind of vacation getaway for 2020 or even, you know, winter 2021. Seems like it would be perfect. So we'll see. I think, though, if you're a first time skier and or if you're not really confident or if you're not into stresses and stuff like that, I probably would say this might be the winter to hold off and, you know, plan for that next ski vacation next winter, because I think there are going to be a lot of a lot of extra hiccups and things to think through. [00:08:13.310] - Kim So just now we've talked about the reservations and getting on the hill. But just getting to the hill is going to be another consideration people have to take into account. I've heard that some places are reserving parking lot reservations to be able to actually drive and park and other resorts are not running the mountain shuttles that normally would pick up in the town and drive you up to the mountain. [00:08:37.340] - Kim I think that some of those shuttles are either not being run at all or if they are, they're being run at a very low capacity, which is going to affect wait times and things. [00:08:45.830] - Tamara And there's nothing I hate more than having to schlep all my stuff and standing around and waiting for a shuttle. It's so irritating and frustrating. My biggest recommendation for this year would be splurge for the ski in, ski out like condo or hotel. [00:09:06.800] - Tamara I remember one year we were up at Mount Snow and Hannah had a fever, which, you know, thinking back like that would been a whole different thing now. [00:09:16.040] - Tamara But she really wanted to try to ski and we didn't realize how sick she was. So we were on the lift and her head whent down an clunked against the bar and I was like, oh my God, she is going to pass out on the lift. So I got her down and we went and we had to wait for a shuttle to get back to our condo. And I'm holding both of our stuff because she's too sick and I'm like propping her up and trying to get us on. [00:09:45.410] - Tamara I think our listeners might know that one of my favorite places to ski is Sun River in Maine. And there we usually do a ski in ski out condo. But there have been times where we might be staying off property and Glenn might drop us off at the front and then he would go park. [00:10:03.380] - Tamara And of course unless you're there really early, you have to park pretty far away and hope that there's a shuttle, but you can always walk it. In a lot of places, it's just too far to walk. Also at Sunday River and a lot of mountains, there are multiple mountains on the resort. So you can ski, take one lift up and you're skiing around and you kind of ski down another side. And then to get back to your original lodge, you have to take a shuttle if you don't want to go back up another trail. [00:10:34.820] - Tamara I definitely think, like every step of the experience, you have to think about what that's going to look like. If you are there for the day, a lot of times you just shove your bag either in a locker or just in the lodge somewhere and hope nobody takes it and you just leave there and you go back whenever you need to get it, that's going to look different this year. [00:10:53.620] - Kim Yeah, definitely. Everything you're saying is exactly what I think some of the things are that people have to consider. And I know that the other thing we should talk about is renting gear as its going to be another huge factor because people are cannot be crammed in a line and at the rental store waiting for their gear, it's going to have to be spread out. [00:11:17.230] - Kim And there's really going to be longer waits because they're not going to be able to cram in. I'm sure you've had this. I don't know how often you've rented, but there's like ten people on a bench and you're all getting fitted with your boots and all that stuff. [00:11:28.480] - Tamara We almost always rent because Hannah had some when she was younger, but she doesn't anymore. And Glenn has boots but not skis. So, yeah, we're always renting something. I think rentals are going to look totally different. Yeah. What we've done a lot of times is rent locally at a local ski shop and then bring it up with us. [00:11:47.380] - Kim Yeah, I agree. We have all of our own gear and so when we go locally we just take our gear, of course. And but when we've gone on trips we've always rented. But I do know something that people will want to look into is a lot of rentals will actually deliver your rentals if you're staying on property. And so if you have that option, if you are going somewhere, you're going to need rent. Try and find an outfitter that will deliver to your condo or whatever, because I think that's going to be that's always better anyways, because you waiting in those lines on their first morning is brutal. [00:12:21.310] - Tamara oh, I hate that. I always try if we can get in like the night before, before it closes, to pick up then. But sometimes you have only a certain number of hours or days. When I was booking travel for people I used ski.com and they did a lot of total packages where it was the accommodations, the lift tickets, and the rentals that were delivered to your accommodations. And that was a really nice one stop shop, so it might be something that people would look into. [00:12:52.960] - Kim Yeah, I think that's a good thing. So we've talked about reservations. We've talked about rentals. We've talked about shuttles and parking. What else do you think we should talk about? Probably eating. I think that's going to be another big thing. And the lodges. [00:13:05.860] - Tamara Yeah, definitely. I've looked at a couple of the mountains that we've typically gone to, and they're all doing reduced capacity when it comes to how many people can be in either a restaurant or even the kind of the more self serve type of things. So that's good. And that, to me, is always such a pain, my preference, and I think you're this way, too, is to ski as long as I can. And go inside after the main lunch crowd has eaten. And then I'm basically done for the day. Once I warm up and I loosen my boots and all of that and I've had my my beer I'm about done. [00:13:48.850] - Tamara But right now it looks like a lot of them are going to require a reservation for any of the sit down dining. And that impacts where you are on the mountain, how many more runs are you going to do, to get there in time for this reservation. [00:14:07.210] - Tamara You can't always plan it out quite so perfectly, not like when you are in the lodge and walking down to the restaurant. And then also they're going to have a cap of the time that you spend there. So my whole thing of like, oh, let's have my ramen soup and my beer and just hang out until Hannah's done her lesson, maybe can't do that anymore. [00:14:28.960] - Tamara I definitely think the ski in ski out would be so much easier. You can just go back to the condo and have your lunch there whenever you need to. [00:14:40.360] - Kim I think this is the year to, like you said, splurge for the ski and ski out condo and do your grocery shopping and all that. Because I know we stayed. Was it last year? Was that two years ago now? Now I can't even remember at Keystone. And it was an amazing time. We loved that. And we stayed in there in Riverrun Village and it was a condo and we were in walking distance. [00:15:02.170] - Kim I mean, it was a little bit of a walk, so you had to carry your gear and a lot of people had little wagons they would just pull behind them and carry their skis and boots and all that. But I think that it's definitely the year to do that because otherwise, your options are to packing lunch and snacks and all of that in the car. [00:15:27.460] - Kim And so then when everybody's ready for lunch, we'll be coming back to the parking lot, sitting in the car, eating our lunch and stuff, and then gearing back up and going back to finish out the day skiing. Normally in our family, the girls get lunch in the lodge and they eat macaroni and cheese or whatever they want, and then head back out on the mountain and then on their way home, they grab an early dinner. And normally, I know this sounds crazy about McDonald's, but that's kind of their tradition. [00:16:06.610] - Kim But I think your car is going to be your home base if you do not have a ski in ski out situation. I think that's what people should count on. And like I don't know how bathrooms are going to be handled because they're always so crazy and dirty. [00:16:22.960] - Tamara I was just thinking about that. I wonder if they will put in porta potties. Can you imagine trying to go in a porta potty in a snowstorm? Oh my goodness. [00:16:37.930] - Kim You know, this would be the year to make sure you have the pants and not the bibs with the suspenders because they're going to be hanging down on who knows what. [00:16:45.670] - Tamara Yes. It's so funny because obviously we're middle aged women and our listeners know bathrooms are something we think about. [00:16:54.220] - Tamara I was listening to this ski Vermont call and they were talking about lessons and, so we'll talk about lessons in a second. But one of the thing with lessons with little kids is some of them need some help, like you said, with all that gear, going to the bathroom. And so they were saying, we're not going to be able to do that. So you can only have a lesson if your child can, you know, go to the bathroom ourselves and all that. [00:17:18.530] - Tamara For lessons I used to sign her up for a full day lesson and they would all go and eat lunch together in their own little space. But that's not going to be allowed anymore. [00:17:28.660] - Tamara Obviously the size of lessons is going to be reduced. I think it's only going to be a half day or shorter lessons and then you can have a family lunch in between or something. [00:17:40.630] - Kim There's going to be a lot of differences and reservations, of course. [00:17:43.630] - Tamara Yeah. That's the one thing I've seen is that if you do want ski lessons, you need to make a reservation in advance. I'm curious how they'll do it. I don't know. I wonder if pricing will be higher because it's going to be semiprivate versus, you know, a big group of kids. So I don't know what that's going to look like because normally it's two kind of instructors and then like a class of like ten to twelve kids. [00:18:22.690] - Tamara I know some of the resorts were debating whether or not they should even open because even just hiring, I'm thinking in Vermont, a lot of resorts might hire from out of state and you can't do that now. [00:18:33.640] - Kim And so, yeah, I guess that they're living there. [00:18:36.490] - Tamara You can, but you don't know like what capacity you're actually going to have. [00:18:43.600] - Kim It's just really a huge task. And I really feel for the ski resorts trying to do their best. But there's so many contact points, you know, there's so many things to to think through for sure. And we didn't even talk about the lifts. [00:18:59.230] - Tamara Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's going to be that's going to be interesting because obviously you can't travel up with someone that is not in your party. So lift lines might move a little slower. And I know in the past well, because I love the part of the mountain that's, you know, not the blacks. So I go I tend to ski near where the ski school is. And so often the kids will be coming up and they'll be like, can you take one? Can you take one? Which always stressed me out anyway. Like, I don't want to be responsible for my own. [00:19:32.450] - Tamara I think I've talked about this before, but when you're already not a fully confident skier, especially, a few years ago before I had the experience that I do now, I was worried about getting myself off the lift, I didn't want to worry about a little kid. [00:19:46.510] - Tamara And then the few times we brought up a little kid, they're fearless and they're just kicking their feet and they're leaning down. They're sliding down. I'm like, oh, my God, they're going to go under. [00:19:54.540] - Kim Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:19:57.540] - Tamara And sometimes I would just be like, I'm really sorry, but I'm not comfortable because I don't want my kid with somebody that's not like fully comfortable. [00:20:06.960] - Tamara Yeah. So it'll definitely be a little bit slower on the lines. And then I have a feeling though, more people, more resorts might be moving to the scanners or the RFID where you don't have to get close to scan somebody. So maybe that can go like a little faster. [00:20:37.360] - Kim I think that it's going to be interesting also because I mean I'm thinking in those lines, like even when we talked to Rob with the Disneyland. Or I mean, Disney World and Universal, and he was talking about the switchbacks are skipped even, and I hadn't even considered that, like I was only thinking of the people, like in front of you being six feet apart. [00:20:55.810] - Tamara But, yeah, when you have, like, a normal like a snake line formation where you're backtracking back and forth and zigzagging you, I mean, you got to skip six feet there, too. [00:21:06.760] - Kim And so I don't know how the lines will work. I mean, I think in some ways it seems like it's going to be better because they're limiting the amount of people they're going to give passes to each day. But when you think of the limitations of, you know, only your party can go on the up the chairlift and things like that, it's going to look very different. And then I was even thinking like Keystone, they have a big tubing hill that's really fun and awesome. [00:21:33.340] - Kim And I'm thinking of that because when we were there, you know, everyone's just grabbing their tube and rushing over to get back up the because you get to be there for like an hour. [00:21:41.730] - Kim So the faster you are, getting off the hill and up back up the little conveyor belt that takes you up the mountain, the more rides you can get in. But that's just packed person to person to person. And so even that's going to be have to be spread out. So that's going to be a lot slower. And then you're not going to be waiting back to back with these people to go for your turn to go down the hill. [00:22:04.240] - Kim So that's going to all just look very different. So I don't know what what's going to happen with some of those extracurricular things, too. But, yeah, I think the the lines on the chairlifts are going to be are going to move slower and they're probably going to be a lot more spread out than you're used to. [00:22:18.760] - Tamara Yeah, because I'm thinking of different ones that I'm familiar with. And it's not necessarily the zigzag, but there might be three lines, coming in and then you alternate, when you get up to the front. [00:22:40.480] - Tamara One thing that we haven't talked about yet, too, is just, travel restrictions. Yeah. I know that, you know, we we've been dealing with travel restrictions here for many months, but places like California and even Washington, you know, like you, you guys have started to implement at least recommendations or some restrictions. And, I think about Vermont was saying that they are usually so busy with people from New York and New Jersey that come up because they're one of the closest resorts for that. [00:23:09.160] - Tamara And they don't anticipate that that would happen this year because they have a 14 day quarantine requirement or can do like seven days plus a test. [00:23:20.020] - Tamara But you're certainly not going to have weekend people that are coming up. And I did ask because everyone's like, well, are they really checking? I asked a couple of the different major resorts and hotels and they actually said that they reach out to everyone that they see from out of state with an out-of-state reservation. [00:23:38.620] - Tamara So this wouldn't probably be the same for some rentals, you know, but for at least hotels, if they see you're coming from a state that would require a quarantine, which is pretty much everyone, they reach out to you and they ask you like, what's your plan? And you have to submit something that says I'm quarantined at home or this is where I'm quarantining before I arrive. [00:23:56.630] - Tamara So they are being proactive with it. So it's not like I'll just ignore that guideline. [00:24:03.730] - Kim Yeah, I think that's one of the big reasons Washington and I think California is a recommended as well. I can't remember California, but they're not able to enforce it. And I think it's because you get to a certain level of people and they just can't follow up with every reservation in person. But that's good that it's being I mean, it's kind of like, again, going back to that idea of the theme parks you can have rules, but enforcing them is what's going to actually provide the the feeling of safety. [00:24:33.700] - Tamara So definitely and honestly, I mean, we should just talk about the elephant that's in the room, which is we all know that right now there's not many places where cases aren't on the rise. [00:24:44.770] - Tamara You know, things aren't looking good. So I think what you are planning is is good, right? You're local. You're just going to drive there and follow the protocols and enjoy your day. But in terms of, like ski travel, I think people really need to think about what that really would entail and whether or not that is something that they should really be taking part of right now. [00:25:09.850] - Kim Well, I know this is kind of getting a little macabre, but even looking at if something does happen to you on a ski hill and you have a catastrophic accident or whatever, like, you know, ICU room beds and hospitals near some of these ski resorts and what are their what are their abilities to take care of you at that point? [00:25:38.380] - Kim I know that Idaho is very popular ski resort, but I know last month they were asking Washington State whether they could take some patients and staff possible, they're trying to set up things to possibly take some patients because of the covid numbers on the rise there and the hospitals being full. [00:25:56.660] - Kim So that's definitely another aspect, like you said, to keep in mind and whether people should be traveling or feel comfortable traveling right now and doing something that is kind of a, you know, not high risk sport, but it is a sport that comes with possible consequences. [00:26:11.800] - Tamara It does. I know a number of people that have broken things. You know, I mean, it doesn't have to be completely catastrophic, but even that is exactly not ideal for sure. I mean, even here in Rhode Island, they opened field hospitals yesterday. [00:26:31.360] - Kim So I think that's just something for everyone to keep in mind. We're not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but definitely something to consider. And and all of this information hopefully won't even be a problem. And if you just think, you know, try and maybe stay close to home and then look ahead to next winter might be a fabulous time. And you can really relax and enjoy it. [00:26:55.480] - Tamara And for the people that don't live near a ski resort, it's definitely a good time to start thinking about next year. If you wanted to go back and listen to a couple of our previous episodes, I know we did Episode 117, which was 2019. We did an episode on the best ski resorts for families. And so that would give people a lot of ideas. [00:27:17.680] - Tamara We tried to cover both the East Coast, West Coast, Colorado, Utah area. So we've got a lot that we covered in that one that would be good to go back and listen to. And then we did a previous episode. I can't remember the number of that one, but it was just kind of about planning your first ski trip for a family and things to keep in mind. So some good episodes to go back to two really good ones. [00:27:39.190] - Kim I think skiing is a fun sport. It's expensive also. And I think that's another thing for people to just keep in mind is the the cost of lift tickets and everything, make sure you're looking into that in advance and rentals and getting that all figured out, you know, so you're not surprised by anything. [00:27:54.730] - Tamara Yeah. And in the meantime, I think that there's also other ways to get outside this winter. I know that snowshoeing is going to be really popular as well as Nordic skiing, because there you don't have to deal with some of the same issues in terms of the lines and things like that. And and many times, if a resort offers Nordic or snowshoeing, many times it's out of a separate lodge or soopers facility, you know, so you're not always dealing with the the main crowd. [00:28:23.770] - Tamara It's funny, there have been so many different things where I've predicted like, oh, there's going to be a run on that. I'm like there's going to be a run on snow shoes by that. It's funny though because I forget we were watching, but it was like a commercial or something. And they're like, this is hard to find. And Hannah looked at me and she was like, you just said, that was going to be hard to find like a month ago. And I'm like, I should go play the lottery. [00:28:46.570] - Kim Yeah, exactly. You should be in marketing. So that makes sense. [00:28:53.050] - Kim Well, and that was what I was going to say, is I actually and I feel kind of stupid for not realizing this, but I actually recently looked up because I was trying to figure out if I could find snow anywhere near as that has like an easy parking lot for like from some photos I wanted to get. And I realized that in our state if youlook up your state park system, so for me, Washington state parks, and you can find that they actually have snow parks. And these are parks that are specifically designed for people to just go play in the snow. So you can do you can park at a trailhead and you can go snowshoeing or you can, you know, build a snowman or you can go sledding and things like that. And some have there's also some winter recreation parks specifically for like snowmobiles. [00:29:35.950] - Kim And then they'll have like non motorized that are specifically, again, for people to be able to go snowshoeing and play in the snow and sledding. So if you're curious and you want to get out and enjoy the winter, look up your state park system and see what they have listed for like winter recreation, because you might be surprised and find that there's some, you know, parks specifically for snow play and or trails specifically for, you know, like you said, snowshoeing and Nordic skiing. [00:30:00.310] - Kim So don't be scared to look on your local state park website. [00:30:04.420] - Tamara That's a great recommendation. Definitely not something that I think I have here. But, you know, many places that would have larger state park systems or more opportunity for snow probably would. So it's great. [00:30:16.690] - Kim Yeah, well, you just go in your backyard, right? [00:30:18.970] - Tamara Well, hopefully not too much. I mean, we did have that one snow in October, but last year we didn't get very much. I really enjoy snowshoeing. You know, I've done it a couple of times. I've always surprised by what hard work it is, you know. But I would like to get snow shoes. But they're a little pricey. I mean, you can get them for like one hundred and fifty or so. [00:30:42.580] Yeah. Good ones. Because if you're going to buy some, you want to splurge a little because you want the lightweight ones, because it is hard work and lifting your feet up and stuff, you definitely want the you want the titanium ones, not the stainless steel or whatever. [00:30:57.440] - Tamara And then I'm like, do I really want to get them now when I don't really want to spend money and who knows if it'll snow or not. And you know, it's one of those things. [00:31:13.590] - Kim Yeah, well, it might be a time to look also on your local Craigslist or Facebook marketplace, because people might be upgrading their snowshoes this year and getting rid of older ones. [00:31:23.490] - Tamara You know, you never know. It's funny. Right before the pandemic, I've had my basement for years. Hannah's old skis and and ski boots, like from when she was really little that I have never bothered to bring to a place to sell. [00:31:35.280] - Tamara And I keep thinking, should I donate it or should I sell it? So I had that for a while. And then I had a chest freezer that we just hadn't used in years. And before the pandemic, I sold both of them. But I sold both of them. And I'm like, well, that was bad timing. Like, I could have gotten so much more. So much more. And it's funny, I guess I'm good with some timing and bad with others. [00:32:04.110] But hopefully we'll all find some ways to get outdoors this winter because we'll need we'll need it. We'll need the fresh air. We'll need the change of scenery. I know there used to be so many places that we would go in the winter to, you know, be entertained even when it's freezing out. And those are not places that I feel comfortable going right now. [00:32:24.120] - Kim Well, most of them are not open anyway. Yeah, I was going to say I feel like for us, it's cruising is always a very popular thing for people to go down to the Caribbean and take a cruise. And I don't know where people are going to escape to this winter. [00:32:36.960] - Tamara Well, I know that we will be inside a bit more this winter and not really going to many places. But do you have any holiday plans? Do you have any special traditions or things that you're going to put in place for the girls to try to make it as festive as you can? [00:32:52.900] - Kim I think it's probably going to be a pretty standard holiday for us. We already if some people follow me on Instagram, they already maybe saw that one of our biggest traditions because we live in Washington state is that we we go and pick out our Christmas tree at a local Christmas tree farm in advance. [00:33:08.830] - Kim And so we you know, at the beginning of November, we go and you walk around their farm and you pick the tree you want and you wrap it up and you take off a little tag and they write it down that this is your tree. And so then we went the weekend of Thanksgiving and we actually cut down our tree and brought it home and then we'll decorate it and everything. So that's kind of one of our big holiday traditions. And it is interesting, though, is that girls have gotten older. [00:33:32.620] - Kim They're less like into it, as we used to be, which is kind of sad. But so we're we're sticking with that. And then we'll just have our standard, you know, holiday. My mom is our she's lives out here and she's alone. And so she part of kind of our bubble unit. And so we'll have her over for Christmas. And that's that's about it. It'll be a pretty easy at home. We had planned to go to Canada like we try and add in Canada a couple every few years. [00:33:59.500] - Kim And we were this was supposed to be a Canada Christmas year. So for us, we are not going to Canada for Christmas, but we will still have a wonderful time at home and just relax. And I know that Paul has a bunch of vacation time, so he's going to be taking off. I think he gets like the two weeks, the last two weeks of the year off. So that'll be a nice little thing to have just some family time at home. [00:34:21.580] - Tamara That's good. Hopefully he can do some skiing. [00:34:24.400] - Kim Yeah, exactly. We've got a couple a few days. We've got four days booked, so. Yeah. So what about you guys? Do you have any holiday plans this month and in the year? [00:34:33.610] - Tamara This will be definitely very different for us because we're never home on Christmas. You know, we always go down to my mom's house and we see my whole family for Christmas and she lives in New Jersey. And it's if we put our whole like my immediate family, my brothers, my sisters, their kids, now, they're kids, kids together. I think we're like twenty six people. So that is not happening. So it'll be sad. [00:34:57.490] - Tamara I'll be the first time ever that we've been home for Christmas. And as you guys know, like we have a Jewish home, so we don't have a Christmas tree and all that kind of stuff. And I've never really thought about it because we're just not here. I don't want to miss the specialness of it, but I don't know quite what to do to create it. You know, it's only it's just the three of us. [00:35:26.080] - Tamara It's always just the three of us, you know, like we don't have anybody nearby. So I'm not sure. But I think what I will enjoy is the fact that this month is going to be quieter. You know, usually it feels like such a rush and so busy and so I don't feel like making Christmas cookies because I always go down to New Jersey and my sister makes like twenty six kinds of cookies and my brother makes like twenty kinds. [00:35:52.630] - Tamara My mom makes like twenty kinds and they all give us like these big tins of cookies and we come back and we have cookies for like months. So I was like OK Hannah like let's make some cookies, like let's pick which ones we want to make. We're going to make cookies and we'll deliver them to like her friends and, you know, we'll deliver them to people. So that'll make us feel like we're doing something special. And then a lot of times, like for Hanukkah, it is like on top of Christmas or it's like too early. [00:36:18.700] - Tamara It's you know, it's like it's never a great time. And we like I like to make potato pancakes and applesauce. [00:36:29.380] - Tamara And when I do it, I make like pounds and pounds of potatoes. So it's like a whole day affair, like I'm frying for hours and then my entire house smells. The kitchen is like coated in grease. So it's basically like my time to deep clean the kitchen. I cook all day and then I clean it all spraying down the cabinets and everything like it, everything really clean, you know. [00:36:53.740] - Tamara But I don't always have time to do that. So some years I'm like, oh, I'm just not like making them this year because it's not worth the effort to just make a few. It's like you want to make a lot. So I think this year, like that weekend, that Hanukkah falls over, like I'll just make a bunch of latkes and maybe do the same, like give them out to some people and, you know, make it festive. [00:37:14.680] - Tamara We are going to do like a drive through holiday lights thing. [00:37:22.390] - Tamara But you know what to figure out as we go. I mean it in a way it's like nice to not have to travel, but our Christmas is like this Christmas spectacular of you know, we drive down to New Jersey and Christmas Eve is at my brother's house and he has done for thirty years, I think, like where he does appetizers and we look forward to certain appetizers that he does. [00:37:43.120] - Tamara And then Christmas Day, we used to always go to my sister's house and now we go to my nephew's house. And then the day after Christmas, my mom does a whole big dinner and we. Are all at her house, you know, and then we drive home the next day and sometimes we stop at New York, in New York on the way home and we see some family there, or we visit the, you know, the Christmas decorations in New York City, you know, do something like that. [00:38:04.900] - Tamara So it's it's always been like a big thing. So it's going to be like definitely really different. And if anybody wants to send me a little holiday cheer message, I'm sure that I will appreciate it at that time because I'm going to be just, like, bored. [00:38:21.260] - Kim Do you guys do light a menorah? [00:38:23.530] - Tamara We do at home. So, yeah, we'll be at least you'll be home for more of the and we'll all be here, which a lot of years like, you know, Glenn is traveling or something. [00:38:31.870] - Tamara So like I'll do the candles with Hannah, but then we don't always do like I used to always get her eight gifts and she would open one a day. This year she needed a new computer. So she's not getting gifts. [00:38:43.840] - Kim So you're like, here's a monitor, here's a mouse. Here's your cell, you know? [00:38:49.870] - Tamara Yeah, it'll it'll be different. In the New Year's Eve, we always the last quite a few number of years have done with our neighbors that live up the street. And they also love food the way that we do. And so Glenn and Greg just cook this amazing, like multi course, like gourmet food. We have caviar, we have oysters. Like, it's amazing. It's this it's actually my favorite day of the entire year. [00:39:16.090] - Tamara And I don't you know, I don't know if there'll be a way to do that safely or not. I was like, well, maybe we can deliver courses to each other and cook, like, over a face time. I don't know, we have to figure out if there's a way, we'll be quarantined. [00:39:27.670] - Tamara So if you guys are willing to quarantine ahead of time because we don't we won't be seeing anyone, then we'd be good. But I think they would do it, but I'm not so sure their sons would be willing to do that. [00:39:39.610] - Kim Teenagers make things a little tricky. Well, and we have right now that with Lizzie has a job now outside the home. So that's she's kind of our biggest risk for our family because the rest of us are at home all the time. So yeah, it's definitely gets interesting. It's really hard to find someone that you can, you know, pod up with that. [00:40:23.050] - Kim Yeah, well, hopefully it'll work out and that you guys will have some new memories and discover some fun ways, you know, fun activities together and stuff. I hope it works out. And for all of our listeners, this is going to be our last episode for the year. So we are wrapping up 2020. It was definitely a different year than other years for Vacation Mavens. And hopefully you guys have enjoyed what we've still shared. And we really appreciate you guys coming along during these crazy times. [00:40:50.950] - Kim And, you know, joining us every other week to listen to what we ramble on about. [00:40:57.010] - Tamara Yeah, we definitely really, really appreciate it, especially sticking with us when, you know, we all know we're not traveling as much as possible. And we always love those kind of encouraging messages that listeners send about different episodes or just when when we realize that someone that follows us on Instagram is also a listener, you know, things like that. It's just it's very heartwarming. And we definitely appreciate it. [00:41:21.430] - Kim And we hope that you all have a very safe and wonderful holiday season. We will be back, you know, next year, probably going to stick to our every other week schedule for a while until at least until travel should pick up more. And we actually enjoy having a little extra time in our schedules, too. So definitely. Anyway, wishing everyone a very happy holiday. Yeah. Happy holidays, everyone. Thanks again by.

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Meet Dart's Scott Draper & How He Honors His Family With Every Mile He Drives

The Trucker

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 14, 2020 17:49

On this edition of the Dart Network Podcast, you'll meet Scott Draper, the new driver behind the wheel of Dart's Breast Cancer Awareness Truck. As you'll hear, Scott felt a strong call to submit an application to fill the open seat of this special truck within the Dart company fleet. Scott's new ride features decals of the iconic pink ribbon that has become the symbol of American Cancer Society's ongoing Breast Cancer Awareness Campaign. For Scott, the opportunity to drive this truck provides him with a rolling tribute to his mother and his sister. As you'll hear Scott tell PodWheels Network Executive Producer Greg Thompson during our interview, Scott lost both his mother and his sister to breast cancer in recent years. And while the pain of those losses is still present, Scott shares with Greg how driving across the nation's highways these days has also allowed him to the feel hope and inspiration his new truck delivers with every mile. This podcast is brought to you by PodWheelsNetwork.com Listen to more podcasts. Read the podcast transcript Announcer: Coming up next on the Dart Network Podcast, you'll meet Scott Draper, a company driver in the Dart fleet who recently was given the opportunity to honor his mother and sister with every mile he drives. As you'll hear in this preview. Scott is now the proud driver of Dart's breast cancer awareness truck. Scott Draper: To finally do something for my mother and my sister... Now, I'm starting to recognize more people out there that have dealt with this horrible disease. The response that I get, I didn't realize that, before I was seated in the truck, makes me feel good for the people that come up and shake my hand. The people that come up and want to take pictures. I know my mom and my sister recognizing that also makes me feel even better. Announcer: Welcome back to the Dart Network Podcast. Thanks for connecting with us again on the PodWheels Network. In this edition of the podcast you'll meet Scott Draper, the new driver behind the wheel of Dart's breast cancer awareness truck. As you'll hear during our interview, Scott felt a strong call to submit an application to fill the open seat of the jet-black truck in the Dart company fleet featuring decals of the iconic pink ribbon that has become the symbol of the American Cancer Society's ongoing breast cancer awareness campaign. Dart's breast cancer awareness truck also offers encouraging words for those afflicted with breast cancer and their families. As many of you in the Dart Network know, “Drive Like A Boss” has been a slogan associated with Dart for many years. With the breast cancer awareness truck, Dart placed an inspirational twist within those words, by displaying a “Fight Like A Boss” decal on the big rig. For Scott Draper, his new ride provides him with a rolling tribute to his mother and his sister. As you'll hear Scott tell PodWheels Network Executive Producer Greg Thompson during our interview, Scott lost both his mother and his sister to breast cancer in recent years. While the pain of those losses is still present, Scott shares with Greg how driving across the nation's highways these days has also allowed him to feel the hope and inspiration his new truck delivers with every mile. Greg Thompson: It's our pleasure to welcome in Scott Draper to the Dart Network Podcast. Scott was recently seated in the breast cancer awareness truck that is in the Dart fleet. Scott, welcome to the Dart Network Podcast, and congratulations on your new ride. Scott Draper: Thank you, Greg. I greatly appreciate it. I've been really enjoying the response that I'm getting from driving this truck. Greg Thompson: Scott, speaking of your ride, the breast cancer awareness truck is one of the specially badged trucks in the Dart fleet. It's got the pink bows on both sides of it as well as on the front of it, and it says, “Fight Like A Boss.” It's much like the military trucks in the Dart Network fleet in that it ...

family drives mile honors dart american cancer society draper announcer welcome

Kubernetes Sucks for Developers, Right? No. (Ep 21)

Play Episode Listen Later May 11, 2020 47:56

We are joined by Ellen Körbes for this episode, where we focus on Kubernetes and its tooling. Ellen has a position at Tilt where they work in developer relations. Before Tilt, they were doing closely related kinds of work at Garden, a similar company! Both companies are directly related to working with Kubernetes and Ellen is here to talk to us about why Kubernetes does not have to be the difficult thing that it is made out to be. According to her, this mostly comes down to tooling. Ellen believes that with the right set of tools at your disposal it is not actually necessary to completely understand all of Kubernetes or even be familiar with a lot of its functions. You do not have to start from the bottom every time you start a new project and developers who are new to Kubernetes need not becomes experts in it in order to take advantage of its benefits.The major goal for Ellen and Tilt is to get developers code up, running and live in as quick a time as possible. When the system is standing in the way this process can take much longer, whereas, with Tilt, Ellen believes the process should be around two seconds! Ellen comments on who should be using Kubernetes and who it would most benefit. We also discuss where Kubernetes should be run, either locally or externally, for best results and Tilt's part in the process of unit testing and feedback. We finish off peering into the future of Kubernetes, so make sure to join us for this highly informative and empowering chat! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://www.notion.so/thepodlets/The-Podlets-Guest-Central-9cec18726e924863b559ef278cf695c9 Guest: Ellen Körbes https://twitter.com/ellenkorbes Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Olive Power Key Points From This Episode: Ellen's work at Tilt and the jumping-off point for today's discussion. The projects and companies that Ellen and Tilt work with, that they are allowed to mention! Who Ellen is referring to when they say 'developers' in this context. Tilt's goal of getting all developers' code up and running in the two seconds range. Who should be using Kubernetes? Is it necessary in development if it is used in production? Operating and deploying Kubernetes — who is it that does this? Where developers seem to be running Kubernetes; considerations around space and speed. Possible security concerns using Tilt; avoiding damage through Kubernetes options. Allowing greater possibilities for developers through useful shortcuts. VS Code extensions and IDE integrations that are possible with Kubernetes at present. Where to start with Kubernetes and getting a handle on the tooling like Tilt. Using unit testing for feedback and Tilt's part in this process. The future of Kubernetes tooling and looking across possible developments in the space. Quotes: “You're not meant to edit Kubernetes YAML by hand.” — @ellenkorbes [0:07:43] “I think from the point of view of a developer, you should try and stay away from Kubernetes for as long as you can.” — @ellenkorbes [0:11:50] “I've heard from many companies that the main reason they decided to use Kubernetes in development is that they wanted to mimic production as closely as possible.” — @ellenkorbes [0:13:21] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Ellen Körbes — http://ellenkorbes.com/ Ellen Körbes on Twitter — https://twitter.com/ellenkorbes?lang=en Tilt — https://tilt.dev/ Garden — https://garden.io/ Cluster API — https://cluster-api.sigs.k8s.io/ Lyft — https://www.lyft.com/ KubeCon — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2019/ Unu Motors — https://unumotors.com/en Mindspace — https://www.mindspace.me/ Docker — https://www.docker.com/ Netflix — https://www.netflix.com/ GCP — https://cloud.google.com/ Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/ AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/ ksonnet — https://ksonnet.io/ Ruby on Rails — https://rubyonrails.org/ Lambda – https://aws.amazon.com/lambda/ DynamoDB — https://aws.amazon.com/dynamodb/ Telepresence — https://www.telepresence.io/ Skaffold Google — https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/application-development/kubernetes-development-simplified-skaffold-is-now-ga Python — https://www.python.org/ REPL — https://repl.it/ Spring — https://spring.io/community Go — https://golang.org/ Helm — https://helm.sh/ Pulumi — https://www.pulumi.com/ Starlark — https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark Transcript: EPISODE 22 [ANNOUNCER] Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores cloud native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision-maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.8] CC: Hi, everybody. This is The Podlets. We are back this week with a special guest, Ellen Körbes. Ellen will introduce themselves in a little bit. Also on the show, it’s myself, Carlisia Campos, Michael Gasch and Duffie Cooley. [0:00:57.9] DC: Hey, everybody. [0:00:59.2] CC: Today’s topic is Kubernetes Sucks for Developers, right? No. Ellen is going to introduce themselves now and tell us all about what that even means. [0:01:11.7] EK: Hi. I’m L. I do developer relations at Tilt. Tilt is a company whose main focus is development experience when it comes to Kubernetes and multi-service development. Before Tilt, I used to work at Garden. They basically do the same thing, it's just a different approach. That is basically the topic that we're going to discuss, the fact that Kubernetes does not have to suck for developers. You just need to – you need some hacks and fixes and tools and then things get better. [0:01:46.4] DC: Yeah, I’m looking forward to this one. I've actually seen Tilt being used in some pretty high-profile open source projects. I've seen it being used in Cluster API and some of the work we've seen there and some of the other ones. What are some of the larger projects that you are aware of that are using it today? [0:02:02.6] EK: Oh, boy. That's complicated, because every company has a different policy as to whether I can name them publicly or not. Let's go around that question a little bit. You might notice that Lyft has a talk at KubeCon, where they're going to talk about Tilt. I can't tell you right now that they use Tilt, but there's that. Hopefully, I found a legal loophole here. I think they're the biggest name that you can find right now. Cluster API is of course huge and Cluster API is fun, because the way they're doing things is very different. We're used to seeing mostly companies that do apps in some way or another, like websites, phone apps, etc. Then Cluster API is completely insane. It's something else totally. There's tons of other companies. I'm not sure which ones that are large I can name specifically. There are smaller companies. Unu Motors, they do electric motorcycles. It's a company here in Berlin. They have 25 developers. They’re using Tilt. We have very tiny companies, like Mindspace, their studio in Tucson, Arizona. They also use Tilt and it's a three-person team. We have the whole spectrum, from very, very tiny companies that are using Docker for Mac and pretty happy with it, all the way up to huge companies with their own fleet of development clusters and all of that and they're using Tilt as well. [0:03:38.2] DC: That field is awesome. [0:03:39.3] MG: Quick question, Ellen. The title says ‘developers’. Developers is a pretty broad name. I have people saying that okay, Kubernetes is too raw. It's more like a Linux kernel that we want this past experience. Our business developers, our application developers are developing in there. How would you do describe developer interfacing with Kubernetes using the tools that you just mentioned? Is it the traditional enterprise developer, or more Kubernetes developers developing on Kubernetes? [0:04:10.4] EK: No. I specifically mean not Kubernetes developers. You have people work in Kubernetes. For example, the Cluster API folks, they're doing stuff that is Kubernetes specific. That is not my focus. The focus is you’re a back-end developer, you’re a front-end developer, you're the person configuring, I don't know the databases or whatever. Basically, you work at a company, you have your own business logic, you have your own product, your own app, your own internal stuff, all of that, but you're not a Kubernetes developer.It just so happens that if the stuff you are working on is going to be pointing at Kubernetes, it's going to target Kubernetes, then one, you're the target developer for me, for my work. Two, usually you're going to have a hard time doing your job. We can talk a bit about why. One issue is development clusters. If you're using Kubernetes in prod, rule of thumb, you should be using Kubernetes in dev, because you don't want completely separate environments where things work in your environment as a developer and then you push them and they break. You don't want that. You need some development cluster. The type of cluster that that's going to be is going to vary according to the level of complexity that you want and that you can deal with. Like I said, some people are pretty happy with Docker for Mac. I hear all the time these complaints that, “Oh, you're running Kubernetes on your machine. It's going to catch fire.” Okay, there's some truth to that, but also it depends on what you're doing. No one tries to run Netflix, let's say the whole Netflix on their laptop, because we all know that's not reasonable. People try to do similar things on their mini-Kube, or Docker for Mac. Then it doesn't work and they say, “Oh, Kubernetes on the laptop doesn't work.” No. Yeah, it does. Just not for you. That's a complaint I particularly dislike, because it comes from a – it's a blanket statement that has no – let's say, no facts behind it. Yeah, if you're a small company, Docker for Mac is going to work fine for you. Let's say you have a beefy laptop with 30 gigs of ram, you can put a lot of software in 30 gigs. You can put a lot of microservices in 30 gigs. That's going to work up to a point and then it's going to break. When it breaks, you're going to need to move to a cloud, you're going to need to do remote development and then you're going to Go to GCP, or Azure, or Amazon. You're going to set up a cluster there. Some people use the managed Kubernetes options. Some people just spin up a bunch of machines and wire up Kubernetes by themselves. That's going to depend on basically how much you have in terms of resources and in terms of needs. Usually, keeping up a remote cluster that works is going to demand more infrastructure work. You're going to need people who know how to do that, to keep an eye on that. There's all the billing aspect, which is you can run Docker for Mac all day and you're not going to pay extra. If you leave a bunch of stuff running on Google, you're going to have a bill at the end of the month that you need to pay attention to. That is one thing for people to think about. Another aspect that I see very often that people don't know what to do with is config files. You scroll Twitter, you scroll Kubernetes Twitter for five minutes and there's a joke about YAML. We all hate editing YAML. Again, the same way people make jokes about using about Kubernetes setting your laptop on fire, I would argue that you're not meant to edit Kubernetes YAML by hand. The tooling for that is arguably not as mature as the tooling when it comes to Kubernetes clusters to run on your laptop. You have stuff like YAML templates, you have ksonnet. I think there's one called customize, but I haven't used it myself. What I see in every company from the two-person team to the 600 person team is no one writes Kubernetes YAML by hand. Everyone uses a template solution, a templating solution of some sort. That is the first thing that I always tell people when they start making jokes about YAML, is if you’re editing YAML by hand, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't do that in the first place. It's something that you set up once at some point and you look at it whenever you need to. On your day-to-day when you're writing your code, you should not touch those files, not by hand. [0:08:40.6] CC: We're five minutes in and you threw so much at us. We need to start breaking some of this stuff down. [0:08:45.9] EK: Okay. Let me throw you one last thing then, because that is what I do personally. One more thing that we can discuss is the development feedback loop. You're writing your code, you're working on your application, you make a change to your code. How much work is it for you to see that new line of code that you just wrote live and running? For most people, it's a very long journey. I asked that on Twitter, a lot of people said it was over half an hour. A very tiny amount of people said it was between five minutes and half an hour and only a very tiny fraction of people said it was two seconds or less. The goal of my job, of my work, the goal of Tilt, the tool, which is made by the company I work for, also called Tilt, is to get everyone in that two seconds range. I've done that on stage and talks, where we take an application and we go from, “Okay, every time you make a change, you need to build a new Docker image. You need to push it to a registry. You need to update your cluster, blah, blah, blah, and that's going to take minutes, whole minutes.” We take that from all that long and we dial it down to a couple seconds. You make a change, or save your file, snap your fingers and poof, it's up and running, the new version of your app. It's basically a real-time, perceptually real-time, just like back and when everyone was doing Ruby on Rails and you would just save your file and see if it worked basically instantly. That is the part of this discussion that personally I focus more on. [0:10:20.7] CC: I'm going to love to jump to the how in a little bit. I want to circle back to the beginning. I love the question that Michael asked at the beginning, what is considered developer, because that really makes a difference, first to understand who we are talking about. I think this conversation can go in circles and not that I'm saying we are going circles, but this conversation out in the wild can go in circles. Until we have an understanding of the difference between can you as a developer use Kubernetes in a somewhat not painful way, but should you? I'm very interested to get your take and Michael and Duffie’s take as well as far as should we be doing this and should all of the developers will be using Kubernetes through the development process? Then we also have to consider people who are not using Kubernetes, because a lot of people out there are not using communities. For developers and special, they hear Kubernetes is painful and definitely enough for developers. Obviously, that is not going to qualify Kubernetes as a tool that they’re going to look into. It's just not motivating. If there is anything that that would make people motivated to look into Kubernetes that would be beneficial for them not just for using Kubernetes for Kubernetes sake, but would it be useful? Basically why? Why would it be useful? [0:11:50.7] EK: I think from the point of view of a developer, you should try and stay away from Kubernetes for as long as you can. Kubernetes comes in when you start having issues of scale. It's a production matter, it's not a development matter. I don't know, like a DevOps issue, operations issue. Ideally, you put off moving your application to Kubernetes as long as possible. This is an opinion. We can argue about this forever. Just because it introduces a lot of complexity and if you don't need that complexity, you should probably stay away from it. To get to the other half of the question, which is if you're using Kubernetes in production, should you use Kubernetes in development? Now here, I'm going to say yes a 100% of the time. Blanket statement of course, we can argue about minutiae, but I think so. Because if you don't, you end up having separate environments. Let's say you're using Docker Compose, because you don't like Kubernetes. You’re using Kubernetes in production, so in development you are going to need containers of some sort. Let's say you're using Docker Compose. Now you're maintaining two different environments. You update something here, you have to update it there. One day, it's going to be Friday, you're going to be tired, you're going to update something here, you're going to forget to update something there, or you're going to update something there and it's going to be slightly different. Or maybe you're doing something that has no equivalent between what you're using locally and what you're using in production. Then basically, you're in trouble. I've heard from many companies that the main reason they decided to use Kubernetes in development is that they wanted to mimic production as closely as possible. One argument we can have here is that – oh, but if you're using Kubernetes in development, that's going to add a lot of overhead and you're not going to be able to do your job right. I agree that that was true for a while, but right now we have enough tooling that you can basically make Kubernetes disappear and you just focus on being a developer, writing your code, doing all of that stuff. Kubernetes is sitting there in the background. You don't have to think about it and you can just go on about your business with the advantage that now, your development environment and your production environment are going to very closely mimic each other, so you're not going to have issues with those potential disparities. [0:14:10.0] CC: All right. Another thing too is that I think we're making an assumption that the developers we are talking about are the developers that are also responsible for deployment. Sometimes that's the case, sometimes that's not the case and I'm going to shut up now. It would be interesting to talk about that too between all of us, is that what we see? Is that the case that now developers are responsible? It's like, developers DevOps is just so ubiquitous that we don't even consider differentiating between developers and ops people? All right? [0:14:45.2] DC: I think I have a different spin on that. I think that it's not necessarily that developers are the ones operating the infrastructure. The problem is that if your infrastructure is operated by a platform that may require some integration at the application layer to really hit its stride, then the question becomes how do you as a developer become more familiar? What is the user experience as of, or what I should say, what's the developer experience around that integration? What can you do to improve that, so that the developer can understand better, or play with how service discovery works, or understand better, or play with how the different services in their application will be able to interact without having to redefine that in different environments? Which is I think what Ellen point was. [0:15:33.0] EK: Yeah. At the most basic level, you have issues as such as you made a change to a service here, let's say on your local Docker Compose. Now you need to update your Kubernetes manifest on your cluster for things to make sense. Let's say, I don't know, you change the name of a service, something as simple as that. Even those kinds of things that sounds silly to even describe, when you're doing that every day, one day you're going to forget it, things are going to explode, you're not going to know why, you're going to lose hours trying to figure out where things went wrong. [0:16:08.7] MG: Also the same with [inaudible] maybe. Even if you use Kubernetes locally, you might run a later version of Kubernetes, maybe use kind for local development, but then your cluster, your remote cluster is on three or four versions behind. Shouldn't be because of the versions of product policy, but it might happen, right? Then APIs might be deprecated, or you're using different API. I totally agree with you, Ellen, that your development environment should reflect production as close as possible. Even there, you have to make sure that prod, like your APIs matches, API types matches and all the stuff right, because they could also break. [0:16:42.4] EK: You were definitely right that bugs are not going away anytime soon. [0:16:47.1] MG: Yeah. I think this discussion also remembers me of the discussion that the folks in the cloud will have with AWS Lambda for example, because there's similar, even though there are tools to simulate, or mimic these platforms, like serverless platforms locally, the general recommendation there is to embrace the cloud and develop in the cloud natively in the cloud, because that's something you cannot resemble. You cannot run DynamoDB locally. You could mimic it. You could mimic lambda runtimes locally. Essentially, it's going to be different. That's also a common complaint in the world of AWS and cloud development, which is it's really not that easy to develop locally, where you're supposed to develop on the platform that the code is being shipped and run on to, because you cannot run the cloud locally. It sounds crazy, but it is. I think the same is with Kubernetes, even though we have the tools. I don't think that every developer runs Kubernetes locally. Most of them maybe doesn't even have Docker locally, so they use some spring tools and then they have some pipeline and eventually it gets shipped as a container part in Kubernetes. That's what I wanted to throw in here as more like a question experience, especially for you Ellen with these customers that you work with, what are the different profiles that you see from the maturity perspective and these customers large enterprises might be different and the smaller ones that you mentioned. How do you see them having different requirements, as also Carlisia said, do they do ops, or DevOps, or is it strictly separated there, especially in large enterprises? [0:18:21.9] EK: What I see the most, let's get the last part first. [0:18:24.6] MG: Yeah, it was a lot of questions. Sorry for that. [0:18:27.7] EK: Yeah. When it comes to who operates Kubernetes, who deploys Kubernetes, definitely most developers push their code to Kubernetes themselves. Of course, this involves CI and testing and PRs and all of that, so it's not you can just go crazy and break everything. When it comes to operating the production cluster, then that's separate. Usually, you have someone writing code and someone else operating clusters and infrastructure. Sometimes it's the same person, but they're clearly separate roles, even if it's the same person doing it. Usually, you go from your IDE to PR and that goes straight into production once the whole process is done. Now we were talking about workflows and Lambda and all of that. I don't see a good solution for lambda, a good development experience for Lambda just yet. It feels a bit like it needs some refinement still. When it comes to Kubernetes, you asked do most developers run Kubernetes locally? Do they not? I don't know about the numbers, the absolute numbers. Is it most doing this, or most doing that? I'm not sure. I only know the companies I'm in touch with. Definitely not all developers run Kubernetes on their laptops, because it's a problem of scale. Right now, we are basically stuck with 30 gigs of RAM on our laptops. If your app is bigger than that, tough luck, you're not going to run it on the laptop. What most developers do is they still maintain a local development environment, where they can do development without going to CI. I think that is the main question. They maintain agility in their development process. What we usually see when you don't have Kubernetes on your laptop and you're using remote Kubernetes, so a remote development cluster in some cloud provider. What most people do and this is not the companies I talk to. This is basically everyone else. What most people will do is they make their development environment be the same, or work the same way as their production environment. You make a change to your code, you have to push a PR that has to get tested by CI. It has to get approved. Then it ends up in the Kubernetes cluster. Your feedback loop as a developer is insanely slow, because there's so much red tape between you changing a line of code and you getting a new process running in your cluster. Now when you use tools, I call the category MDX. I basically coined that category name myself. MDX is a multi-service development experience tooling. When you use MDX tools, and that's not just Tilt; it’s Tilt, it’s Garden where I used to work, people use telepresence like that. There is Scaffold from Google and so on. There's a bunch of tools. When you use a tool like that, you can have your feedback loop down to a second like I said before. I think that is the major improvement developers can do if they're using Kubernetes remotely and even if they’re using Kubernetes locally. I would guess most people do not run Kubernetes locally. They use remotely. We have clients who have clients — we have users who don't even have Docker on their local machines, because if you have the right tooling, you can change the files on your machine. You have tooling running that detects those five changes. It syncs those five changes to your cluster. The cluster then rebuilds images, or restarts containers, or syncs live code that's already running. Then you can see those changes reflected in your development cluster right, away even though you don't even have Docker in your machine. There's all of those possibilities. [0:22:28.4] MG: Do you see security issues with that approach with not knowing the architecture of Tilt? Even though it's just the development clusters, there might be stuff that could break, or you could break by bypassing the red tape as you said? [0:22:42.3] EK: Usually, we assign one user per namespace. Usually, every developer has a namespace. Kubernetes itself has enough options that if that's a concern to you, you can make it secure. Most people don't worry about it that much, because it's development clusters. They're not accessible to the public. Usually, there's – you can only access it through a VPN or something of that sort. We haven't heard about security issues so far. I'm sure they’re going to pop out at some point. I'm not sure how severe it’s going to be, or how hard it's going to be to fix. I am assuming, because none of this stuff is meant to be accessible to the wider Internet that it's not going to be a hard problem to tackle. [0:23:26.7] DC: I would like to back up for a second, because I feel we're pretty far down the road on what the value of this particular pattern is without really explaining what it is. I want to back this up for just a minute and talk about some of the things that a tooling like this is trying to solve in a use case model, right? Back in the day when I was learning Python, I remember really struggling with the idea of being able to debug Python live. I came across iPython, which is a REPL and that was – which was hugely eye-opening, because it gave me the ability to interact with my code live and also open me up to the idea that it was an improve over things like having to commit a new log line against a particular function and then push that new function up to a place where it would actually get some use and then be able to go look at that log line and see what's coming out of it, or do I actually have enough logs to even put together what went wrong. That whole set of use case is I think is somewhat addressed by tooling like this. I do think we should talk about how did we get here and how does that actually and how does like this address some of those things, and which use cases specifically is it looking to address. I guess where I'm going with this is to your point, so a tooling like Tilt, for example, is the idea that you can, as far as I understand it, inject into a running application, a new instance that would be able to – that you would have a local development control over. If you make a change to that code, then the instance running inside of your target environment would be represented by that new code change very quickly, right? Basically, solving the problem of making sure that you have some very quick feedback loop. I mean, functionally, that's the killer feature here. I think it’s really interesting to see tooling like that start to develop, right? Another example of that tooling would be the REPL thing, wherein instead of writing your code and compiling your code and seeing the output, you could do a thing where you're actually inside, running as a thread inside of the code and you can dump a data structure and you can modify that data structure and you can see if your function actually does the right thing, without having to go back and write that code while imagining all those data structures in your head. Basic tooling like this, I think is pretty killer. [0:25:56.8] EK: Yeah. I think one area where that is still partially untapped right now where this tooling could go, and I'm pushing it, but it's a process. It's not something we can do overnight, is to have very high-level patterns, the let's say codified. For example, everyone's copying Docker files and Kubernetes manifests and Terraform can take files, which I forgot what they're called. Everyone's copying that stuff from the Internet from other websites. That's cool. Oh, you need a container that does such-and-such and sets up this environment and provides these tools. Just download this image and everything is all set up for you. One area where I see things going is for us to have that same portability, but for development environments. For example, I did this whole talk about how to take your Go code, your Go application from I don't know, a 30-seconds feedback loop where you're rebuilding an image every time you make a code change and all of that, down to 1 second. There's a lot of hacks in there that span all kinds of stuff, like should you use Go vendor, or should you keep your dependencies cached inside a Docker layer? Those kinds of things. Then I went down a bunch of those things and eventually came up with a workflow that was basically the best I could find in terms of development experience. What is the snappiest workflow? Or for example, you could have what is a workflow that makes it really easy to debug my Go app? You would use applications like Squash and that's a debugger that you can connect to a process running in a large container. Those kinds of things. If we can prepackage those and offer those to users and not just for Go and not just for debugging, but for all kinds of development workflows, I think that would be really great. We can offer those types of experiences to people who don't necessarily have the inclination to develop those workflows themselves. [0:28:06.8] DC: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it is interesting. I've had a few conversations lately about the fact that the abstraction layer of coding in the way that we think about it really hasn't changed over time, right? It's the same thing. That's actually a really relevant point. It's also interesting to think about with these sorts of frameworks and this tooling, it might be interesting to think of what else we can – what else we can enable the developer to have a feedback loop on more quickly, right? To your point, right? We talked about how these different environments, your development environment and your production environment, the general consensus is they should be as close as you can get them reasonably, so that the behavior in one should somewhat mimic the behavior in the other. At least that's the story we tell ourselves. Given that, it would also be interesting if the developer was getting feedback from effectively how the security posture of that particular cluster might affect the work that they're doing. You do actually have to define network policy. Maybe you don't necessarily have to think about it if we can provide tooling that can abstract that away, but at least you should be aware that it's happening so that you understand if it's not working correctly, this is where you might be able to see the sharp edges pop up, you know what I mean? That sort of thing. [0:29:26.0] EK: Yeah. At the last KubeCon, where was it? In San Diego. There was this running joke. I was running around with the security crowd and there was this joke about KubeCon applies security.yaml. It was in a mocking tone. I'm not disparaging their joke. It was a good joke. Then I was thinking, “What if we can make this real?” I mean, maybe it is real. I don't know. I don't do security myself. What if we can apply a comprehensive enough set of security measures, security monitoring, security scanning, all of that stuff, we prepackage it, we allow users to access all of that with one command, or even less than that, maybe you pre-configure it as a team lead and then everyone else in your team can just use it without even knowing that it's there. Then it just lets you know like, “Oh, hey. This thing you just did, this is a potential security issue that you should know about.” Yeah, I think coming up with these developer shortcuts, it's my hobby. [0:30:38.4] MG: That's cool. What you just mentioned Ellen and Duffie remembers me on – reminds me on the Spring community, the Spring framework, where a lot of the boilerplate, or beat security stuff, or connections, integrations, etc., is being abstracted away and you just annotate your code a bit and then some framework and Spring obviously, it's a spring framework. In your case Ellen, what you were hinting to is maybe this build environment that gives me these integration hooks where I just annotate. Or even those annotations could be enforced. Standards could be enforced if I don't annotate at all, right? I could maybe override them. Then this build environment would just pick it up, because it scans the code, right? It has the source code access, so I could just scan it and hook into it and then apply security policies, lock it down, see ports being used, maybe just open them up to the application, the other ones will automatically get blocked, etc., etc. It just came to my mind. I have not done any research there, or whether there's already some place or activity. [0:31:42.2] EK: Yeah. Because I won't shut up about this stuff, because I just love it, we are doing a – it's in a very early stage right now. We are doing a thing at Tile, we're calling extensions. Very creative name, I suppose. It's basically Go in parts, but for those were closed. It's still at a very early stage. We still have some road ahead of us. For example, we have – let's say this one user and they did some very special integration of Helm and Tilt. You don't have to use Helm by hand anymore. You can just make all of your Helm stuff happen automatically when you're using Tilt. Usually, you would have to copy I don't know, a 100 lines of code from your Tilt config file and copy that around for other developers to be able to use it. Now we have this thing that it's basically going parts where you can just say load extension and give it a name, it fetches it from a repository and it's running. I think that is basically an early stage of what you just described with Spring, but more geared towards let's say an infra-Kubernetes, like how do you tie infra-Kubernetes, that stuff with a higher level functionality that you might want to use? [0:33:07.5] MG: Cool. I have another one. Speaking of which, is there any other integrations for IDEs with Tilt? Because I know that VS code for example, has Kubernetes integrations, does the fabric aid and may even plugin, which handles some stuff under the covers. [0:33:24.3] EK: Usually, Tilt watches your code files and it doesn't care which IDEs you use. It has its own dashboard, which is just a page that you open on your browser. I have just heard this week. Someone mentioned on Slack that they wrote an extension for Tilt. I'm not sure if it was for VS code or the other VS code-like .NET editors. I don't remember what it’s called, but they have a family of those. I just heard that someone wrote one of those and they shared the repo. We have someone looking into that. I haven't seen it myself. The idea has come up when I was working at Garden, which is in the same area as Tilt. I think it's pertinent. We also had the idea of a VS code extension. I think the question is what do you put in the extension? What do you make the VS code extension do? Because both Tilt and Garden. They have their own web dashboards that show users what should be shown and in the manner that we think should be shown. If you're going to create a VS code extension, you either replicate that completely and you basically take this stuff that was in the browser and put it in the IDE. I don't particularly see much benefit in that. If enough people ask, maybe we'll do it, but it's not something that I find particularly useful. Either you do that and you replicate the functionality, or you come up with new functionality. In both cases, I just don't see a very strong point as to what different and IDE-specific functionality should you want. [0:35:09.0] MG: Yes. The reason why I was asking is that we see all these Pulumi, CDKs, AWS CDKs coming up, where you basically use a programming language to write your application/application infrastructure code and your IDE and then all the templating, that YAML stuff, etc., gets generated under covers. Just this week, AWS announced the CDKs, like the CDK basically for Kubernetes. I was thinking, with this happening where some of these providers abstract the scaffolding as well, including the build. You don't even have to build, because it's abstracted away under the covers. I was seeing this trend. Then obviously, we still have Helm and the templating and the customize and then you still have the manual as I mentioned in the beginning. I do like the IDE integration, because that's where I spend most of my time. Whenever I have to leave the IDE, it's a context switch that I have to go through. Even if it's just for opening another file also that I need to edit somewhere. That's why I think having IDE integration is useful for developers, because that's where they most spend up their time. As you said, there might be reasons to not do it in an IDE, because it's just replicating functionality that might not be useful there. [0:36:29.8] EK: Yeah. In the case of Tilt, all the config is written in Starlark, which is a language and it's basically Python. If your IDE can syntax highlight Python, it can syntax highlight the Tilt config files. About Pulumi and that stuff, I'm not that familiar. It's stuff that I know how it works, but I haven't used it myself. I'm not familiar with the browse and the IDE integration side of it. The thing about tools like Tilt is that usually, if you set it up right, you can just write your code all day and you don't have to look at the tool. You just switch from your IDE to let's say, your browser where your app is running, so you get feedback and that kind of thing. Once you configure it, you don't really spend much time looking at it. You're going to look at it when there are errors. You try to refresh your application and it fails. You need to find that error. By the time that happened, you already lost focus from your code anyway. Whether you're going to look for your error on a terminal, or on the Tilt dashboard, that's not much an issue. [0:37:37.7] MG: That's right. That’s right. I agree. [0:37:39.8] CC: All this talk about tooling and IDEs is making me think to ask you Ellen. If I'm a developer and let's say, my company decides that we’re going to use Kubernetes. What we are advocating here with this episode is to think about well, if you're going to be the point to Kubernetes in production, you should consider running Kubernetes as a local development environment. Now for those developers who don't even – haven't even worked with Kubernetes, where do you suggest they jump in? Should they get a handle on – because it's too many things. I mean, Kubernetes already is so big and there are so many toolings around to how to operate Kubernetes itself. For a developer who is, “Okay, I like this idea of having my own local Kubernetes environment, or a development environment somehow may also be in the cloud,” should they start with a tooling like Tilt, or something similar? Would that make it easier for them to wrap their head around Kubernetes and what Kubernetes does? Or should they first get a handle on Kubernetes and then look at a tool like this? [0:38:56.2] EK: Okay. There are a few sides to this question. If you have a very large team, ideally you should get one or a few people to actually really learn Kubernetes and then make it so that everyone else doesn't have to. Something we have seen is very large company, they are going to do Kubernetes in development. They set up a developer experience team and then for example, they have their own wrapper around Kubectl and then basically, they automate a bunch of stuff so that everyone in the team doesn't have to take a certified Kubernetes application development certificate. Because for people who don't know that certificate, it's basically how much Kubectl can you do off top of your head? That is basically what that certificate is about, because Kubectl is an insanely huge and powerful tool. On the one hand, you should do that. If you have a big team, take a few people, learn all that you can about Kubernetes, write some wrappers so that people don't have to do Kubectl or something, something by hand. Just make very easy functions, like Kubectl, let’s say you know a name of your wrapper, context and the name and then that's going to switch you to a namespace let's say, where some version of your app is running, so that thing. Now about the tooling. Once you have your development environment set up and you're going to need someone who has some experience with Kubernetes to set that up in the first place, but once that is set up, if you have the right tooling, you don't really have to know everything that Kubernetes does. You should have at least a conceptual overview. I can tell you for sure, that there's hundreds of developers out there writing code that is going to be deployed to Kubernetes, writing codes that whenever they make a change to their code, it goes to a Kubernetes development cluster and they don't have the first – well, I’m not going to say the first clue, but they are not experienced Kubernetes users. That's because of all the tooling that you can put around. [0:41:10.5] CC: Yeah, that makes sense. [0:41:12.2] EK: Yeah. You can abstract a bunch of stuff with basically good sense, so that you know the common operations that need to be done for your team and then you just abstract them away, so that people don't have to become Kubectl experts. On the other side, you can also abstract a bunch of stuff away with tooling. Basically, as long as your developer has the basic grasp of containers and basics of Kubernetes, that stuff, they don't need to know how to operate it, with any depth. [0:41:44.0] MG: Hey Ellen, in the beginning you said that it's all about this feedback loop and iterating fast. Part of a feedback loop for a developer is unit testing, integration testing, or all sorts of testing. How do you see that changing, or benefiting from tools like Tilt, especially when it comes to integration testing? Unit tests usually locally, but the integration testing. [0:42:05.8] EK: One thing that people can do when they're using Tilt is once you have Tilt running, you basically have all of your application running. You can just set up one-off tasks with Tilt. You could basically set up a script that there's a bunch of stuff, which would basically be what your test does. If it returns zero, it succeeded. If it doesn’t, it failed. You can set something up like that. It's not something that we have right now in a prepackaged farm that you can use right away. You would basically just say, “Hey Tilt, run this thing for me,” and then you would see if it worked or not. I have to make a plug to the competition right now. Garden has more of that part of it, that part of things set up. They have tests as a separate primitive right next to building and deploying, which is what you usually see. They also have testing. It does basically what I just said about Tilt, but they have a special little framework around it. With Garden, you would say, “Oh, here's a test. Here's how you run the test. Here's what the test depends on, etc.” Then it runs it and it tells you if it failed or not. With Tilt, it would be a more generic approach where you would just say, “Hey Tilt, run this and tell me if it fails or not,” but without the little wrapping around it that's specific for testing. When it comes to how things work, like when you're trying to push the production, let's say you did a bunch of stuff locally, you're happy with it, now it's time to push the production. Then there's all that headache with CI and waiting for tests to run and flaky tests and all of that, that I don't know. That is a big open question that everyone's unhappy about and no one really knows which way to run to. [0:43:57.5] DC: That’s awesome. Where do you see this space going in the future? I mean, as you look at the tooling that’s out there, maybe not specifically to the Tilt particular service or capability, but where do you see some other people exploring that space? We were talking about AWS dropping and CDK and there are different people trying to solve the YAML problem, but more from the developer user experience tooling way, where do you see that space going? [0:44:23.9] EK: For me, it's all about higher level abstractions and well-defined best practices. Right now, everyone is fumbling around in the dark not knowing what to do, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. The main thing that I see changing is that given enough time, best practices are going to emerge and it's going to be clear for everyone. If you're doing this thing, you should use this workflow. If you're doing that thing, you should use that workflow. Basically, what happened when IDEs emerged and became a thing, that is the best practice aside. [0:44:57.1] DC: That's a great example. [0:44:58.4] EK: Yeah. What I see in terms of things being offered for me tomorrow of — in terms of prepackaged higher level abstractions. I don't think developers should, everyone know how to deal with Kubernetes at a deeper level, the same way as I don't know how to build the Linux kernel even though I use Linux every day. I think things should be wrapped up in a way that developers can focus on what matters to them, which is right now basically writing code. Developers should be able to get to the office in the morning, open up their computer, start writing code, or doing whatever else they want to do and not worry about Kubernetes, not worry about lambda, not worry about how is this getting built and how is this getting deployed and how is this getting tested, what's the underlying mechanism. I'd love for higher-level patterns of those to emerge and be very easy to use for everyone. [0:45:53.3] CC: Yeah, it's going to be very interesting. I think best practices is such an interesting thing to think about, because somebody could sit down and write, “Oh, these are the best practices we should be following in the space.” I think, my opinion it's really going to come out of what worked historically when we have enough data to look at over the years. I think it's going to be as far as tooling goes, like a survival of the fittest. Whatever tool has been used the most, that's what's going to be the best practice way to do things. Yeah, we know today there are so many tools, but I think probably we're going to get to a point where we know what to use for what in the future. With that, we have to wrap-up, because we are at the top of the hour. It was so great to have Ellen, or L, how they I think prefer to be called and to have you on the show, Elle. Thank you so much. I mean, L. See, I can't even follow my own. You're very active on Twitter. We're going to have all the information for how to reach you on the show notes. We're going to have a transcript. As always people, subscribe, follow us on Twitter, so you can be up to date with what we are doing and suggest episodes too on our github repo. With that, thank you everybody. Thank you L. [0:47:23.1] DC: Thank you, everybody. [0:47:23.3] CC: Thank you, Michael and – [0:47:24.3] MG: Thank you. [0:47:24.8] CC: - thank you, Duffie. [0:47:26.2] EK: Thank you. It was great. [0:47:26.8] MG: Until next time. [0:47:27.0] CC: Until next week. [0:47:27.7] MG: Bye-bye. [0:47:28.5] EK: Bye. [0:47:28.6] CC: It really was. [END OF EPISODE] [0:47:31.0] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to the Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter @thepodlets and on thepodlets.io website. That is ThePodlets, altogether, where you will find transcripts and show notes. We’ll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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EP3.3: Helping your team thrive through crisis: Kanina Blanchard, Professor at Ivey Business School

LeaderLab

Play Episode Listen Later May 5, 2020 25:58

In this episode, Kanina Blanchard discusses: Her one big message for leaders during Covid-19 (01:31) Why it’s important to create a game plan for surviving a crisis (02:56) Why you should think about how your actions will be judged in the long term (03:22) The three C’s to keep in mind in a crisis (04:16) What great crisis planning looks like (05:38) What professional athletes teach us about preparing for a crisis (06:16) The importance of including diverse perspectives in crisis planning (07:12) Why it’s never too late to address a crisis (09:07) What leaders can be doing right now to deal with he impact of Covid-19 (09:53) The one aspect of culture she’d like to see leaders focus on right now (15:05) How to build collaboration and connection virtually (16:33) Why you shouldn’t try to be a superhero (18:50) Positive lessons from Covid-19 (21:04) What she does to recharge (23:51) Kanina’s advice for leaders: Align your game plan with your values (03:06) Listen and show empathy (03:44) Prepare for worst-case scenario (06:55) Let yourself be uncomfortable (08:26) Think about who you (and your company) want to be when the crisis is over (09:30) Communicate in a way that creates trust (11:27) Make sure your actions and words match – and are consistent with your values (12:15) Don’t expect to have all the answers (13:05) Keep your employees’ needs in mind (17:57) Practice self-care (19:38) More about Kanina Blanchard: Kanina Blanchard has led teams through crisis on four different continents, and is recognized for her ability to adapt, lead teams and projects, and navigate complexities across various sectors. She has extensive experience working in international business, the public service, non-profit and consulting in areas that include organizational and communication challenges as well as issues, crisis and change management. Blanchard has coached thousands of CEOs, C-Suite executives and emerging leaders seeking to grow and develop their character, competencies and commitment over the last 30 years. She is committed to providing targeted and customized strategic solutions to challenges that impact organizational and leadership brand, reputation and bottom line. She is a lecturer in management communications and general management at the Ivey Business School, the recipient of the Margaret Haughey Master’s Award for Best Master’s Thesis, and is currently working toward her PhD. More about TILTCO: TILTCO is a boutique consulting company that helps leaders define and execute their strategies in order to achieve extraordinary business and personal results. Founded by Tineke Keesmaat who has over 20 years of leadership consulting experience with McKinsey & Company, Accenture and now TILTCO Inc. More about The Ivey Academy: The Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School is the home for executive Learning and Development (L&D) in Canada. It is Canada’s only full-service L&D house, blending Financial Times top-ranked university-based executive education with talent assessment, instructional design and strategy, and behaviour change sustainment Links to additional resources: https://www.ivey.uwo.ca/academy/about/faculty/kanina-blanchard/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0YpWlEugY https://iveybusinessjournal.com/publication/to-a-better-understanding-the-leadership-odyssey-explored/ Memorable quote: “Especially in a time of crisis, leaders need to ensure that what’s being done is the right thing and that it’s being done the right way.” Full Transcript: TINEKE KEESMAAT: LeaderLab is focused on having inspiring leaders share their stories and practical leadership tips to help others be more effective. Today is April 19, 2020 and leaders across the globe are in the uncharted world of dealing with the global health pandemic of coronavirus. There's no perfect playbook for leaders as they tackle the enormous social, emotional, and economic challenges brought on by COVID-19. Our next few episodes will be focused on how leaders are managing through these times. And our hope is that by sharing these leadership stories, we can find ways to help each other navigate through the uncertainty of COVID-19. ANNOUNCER: Welcome to LeaderLab, where we talk to experts about how leaders can excel in a modern world. Helping leaders for over 20 years, your host, Tineke Keesmaat. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Today I'm excited to chat with Kanina Blanchard. Kanina is a recognized public affairs and policy leader who has led teams internationally through crisis, challenge, and change. From bomb threats to environmental and human health disasters, she has helped teams and leaders in both the private and public sector navigate their toughest scenarios. Kanina is a lecturer at the Ivey Business School, where she focuses her research in the areas of women in leadership and responsible leadership. Kanina wants to help leaders navigate successfully through COVID-19 by being purposeful, empowering, and passionate so they cannot just survive, but find a way to thrive into the future. Kanina, thank you so much for joining me on today's LeaderLab. I'd like to start by asking you, what's the one big message you want leaders to take away from our conversation today? KANINA BLANCHARD: I think what we all need to do is start by stopping. And what I mean is to stop. Stop and take a step back from the firefight we find ourselves in. Because in times of crisis, whatever that crisis may be-- if it's a family issue or an illness, or some of my lived experience includes bomb threats and fires and explosions-- that we need to take a step back because we fall into this loop. And this loop is one where we have a sense of fear. We have a sense of powerlessness, a loss of control. And there is this deep need to do something. And that itself creates a problem, because we just do. And we keep doing. And we're driven by this sort of primal instinct, because actually doing something in the middle of a crisis feels good. But that's not good enough, not for a leader. And especially in a time of crisis, leaders need to ensure that what's being done is the right thing and that it's being done the right way. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that. So really, although we want to just act, act, act, what I'm hearing you say is pause and make sure that you are being purposeful. From a practical lens, what do you think leaders need to be thinking about as they're creating their crisis game plan? KANINA BLANCHARD: Our game plan for surviving the crisis, but hopefully thriving when this is over, is an important place to start. And not just on what you need to get done, but the why you're doing it-- align those to your values and think about who you want to be remembered as when this is over. So not just you-- your team, your organization. And sometimes when we think about these items, we may make some different decisions. Perhaps we still have to do what we have to do. For example, we're having to let people go. But how do we let people go, that matters. That matters for the kind of relationship you will have, the reputation you will have on the back end. So listen more. Demonstrate through your words and actions that you care about we, not just me. So don't sit back and make decisions in a crisis and articulate them. Involve others. Help other people be purposeful. Find a reason yourself to be passionate, and remember that your attitude as a leader is truly contagious. And this may be a bad play on words, but truly think about, what do you want to be spreading right now as a leader? TINEKE KEESMAAT: I know you talk about the 3 C's-- so crisis management, communication, and culture. And you've encouraged leaders in other talks to think about those three areas as they navigate through. So I'd love to spend a bit of time unpacking those and sharing your thoughts and tips. So if we can start with crisis management, can you talk to me about what that means? KANINA BLANCHARD: In a crisis, we need to lead and we need to manage. But it's not business as usual. So when we talk about leadership in times of crisis, there needs to be a plan. We need to prepare to manage and lead through crisis. And we need to, hopefully, have practiced and been prepared to deal with the absolutely-not-business-as-usual challenges that come up. I think about how many clients and people I speak to right now who say, you know, we've been trying to get a work from home policy in place for years and the company said no way. And now there are so many monitors being delivered to people's homes. So how do we manage? How do we adapt? How do we take on a mindset that we can manage through crisis? TINEKE KEESMAAT: Can you talk to me a bit about planning? What does great planning look like in this context? KANINA BLANCHARD: If we're going to actually lead through crisis, we have to accept that a crisis is different and that there are different emotions and different challenges. And it's uncomfortable to do this. So in a lot of large organizations and in my own professional career, we've done a lot of crisis management planning where we get down into the deep, the dirty, and sometimes the ugly and uncomfortable stories about what keeps us up at night. What is it that we're afraid of, the worst-case scenarios? And we live in a bit of a culture where we don't want to talk about those things. And this is where we can take guidance from professional athletes and professionals in fields like astronauts, who a huge part of their life is to plan for the unexpected and to plan for the worst-case scenario. I love this story that Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir, the very well-known Canadian figure skating champions, talk about-- that when they were practicing for the Olympics, they basically had a protocol where their coach would do the completely unexpected-- where the music would die, where the lights would go off-- and they could continue their performance regardless. So they planned for that. So plan for continuation of your operations and those scenarios that you are most concerned about. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And preparing, what does that look like? KANINA BLANCHARD: Preparing looks like bringing the right people to the table to do the work. And this seems kind of obvious, but one of the things that happens is we bring people around the table who are like us, who think like us, who focus on the things we focus on. But in a crisis, what we need to do is think about our audiences, our stakeholders from a very broad perspective and bring to the table those people who truly represent the voice of our communities, of our suppliers, of government, of other stakeholders. And so to prepare in a way that is mindful of not only kind of our worst-case scenarios or situations that we would normally not want to deal with, but to do it with people and get the insights of the people that matter the most, which is our audience in these situations. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Fantastic. And finally, practicing-- what do leaders need to think about there? KANINA BLANCHARD: Absolutely. So you know, it's funny. When I work with a lot of my clients, when I work with students, we do things like role plays or situations or scenarios. And some people love that, and some people are absolutely petrified. And I tell you, if you're petrified and I'm working with you, I am putting you on point, because we need to get past that. We literally need to practice stepping into the roles, making decisions, taking risk, and learning that there will be failure. There will be failure. And this sort of leads to this idea of communications and culture, and why it's so important to be able to manage through a crisis. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So Kanina, this sounds amazing. But I'm sure there's some people listening to you saying, gosh, I wish I had heard Kanina a year ago, because I would have done the plan, prepare, and practice. But now they're living through COVID. Is it too late for them? How do you talk to leaders about what they can do in the moment if they haven't had the opportunity to do your three P's before? KANINA BLANCHARD: It's not too late. It's never too late. In fact, we know in life there are some crises and issues that we can prepare for and some things that just hit us out of the blue. So we can absolutely bring our best self forward when things start to unravel. And for a lot of us, things are unraveling right now. So what do we do? Let's think about, have we thought through who do we want to be when this crisis is over? Have we planned for who we want to be at the end of this? Have we brought the right people together to talk about and prepare for not only doing what we're doing today better, but preparing for this crisis is not over. And if we're just living in the moment and focusing on the short-term, we're missing both other risks as well as other opportunities. So use this time to prepare. Then the last thing is we can still practice. We can practice, because when we realize that the most important thing we can be doing as leaders right now is not only stepping up into managing and leading through the crisis, but being the best communicators we can be and ensuring that our culture is one that's going to support us through this initiative and this challenge. We can be focused on what's coming. And that's going to help us, hopefully, thrive. TINEKE KEESMAAT: You bring us to the last two parts of your three C's. Communications was one that you mentioned up top. Can you talk to me a bit about what leaders should be doing or how they should be communicating during these uncertain times? KANINA BLANCHARD: Everything that you've been taught from a communications perspective, from a leadership communications perspective in normal business operations, applies today. But it is magnified and it is amplified. So do you communicate with your audiences? Are you authentic in your communications? Are you transparent? Are you consistent? Now, when I say things like "transparent" and "authentic," let's be clear, this isn't about saying whatever is on your mind. This is about putting your audience first. It's about purpose. As a leader, when you communicate you are purposeful in trying to motivate, inspire, compel, and influence others. When you communicate in a crisis, that's even more important. But it needs to be done in a way that people believe and they trust. I've had clients, as well as people that I've been talking with, who've said, look, my company is saying all the right things, but no one believes it. They're not making us feel like they're doing the right things. And that's key about communicating as a leader. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I know some of the people that I've been talking to have raised this point around consistency of message during these times. Their leaders are saying one thing but then doing something else. Can you talk to me about that, how that comes to play and why it matters? KANINA BLANCHARD: So when we talk about our values and all of these issues, what we say has to reflect who we are as an organization, who we are as people. And then we need to be very mindful to be consistent with that. So if we say to our employees in today's world that your health and welfare matters the most but then we back it up with actions and tell people to just go do things and take a risk, there isn't that consistency between what's being said and then what's being asked. So that is really important, because that is your legacy through this crisis. Will people, including your own employees as well as your customers in the community, be able to trust you based on what you did? Don't expect that you are going to have all the answers, that things are going to work at the same pace, that things are going to happen exactly the way that everybody would have expected them in normal times. But as a leader, set expectations. But work with people to bring their best selves forward. And you do that by connecting with people at the emotional level. And we could say, well, you know, how do you do that when everyone is leading at a distance? So there's lots of literature on this topic. But at a very simple tricks and tips level that I would love to see people truly take in, if you're talking to somebody, you're trying to build connection, stop looking at your screen and look at where your camera is. Because the reality is that most of us are speaking on cameras most of the day while we're looking down at someone on the screen. Or we might be looking at ourselves on the screen. What other people are seeing is you looking down at them. Lift your head, and know that that little aperture of your camera is your audience. And care enough to look at them and talk to them clearly, authentically, with purpose. Be values-based, and connect with them as human beings right now. That's what's going to motivate them to bring their best selves forward. TINEKE KEESMAAT: The last of your C's was around culture. I'm curious, Kanina, what do you think are the most important elements of culture that leaders need to get right during COVID-19? KANINA BLANCHARD: Well, there's so much about culture, right? It's hard to change a culture in the middle of a crisis in some ways, because we bring everything that we have been to that moment. However, crises create an incredible opportunity and a raison d'etre, or creates a bias for action. And so if there was one part of culture that I would love to see leaders focus on right now is collaboration. If we lose touch and if we lose connection with people at this time, the good parts of our culture will start to erode. And in the vacuum of collaboration and connection, we will drive movement toward people feeling more isolated, less purposeful, perhaps not knowing where their place is-- which will create more fear. I know this adds a burden to a lot of leaders. It's spending more time trying to connect. But creating opportunities for people to bring their best selves forward to collaborate on aspects of your business continuity plan and your future plan right now can do more to keep your employees, your customers engaged and motivated than anything. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Any practical tips or insights about how to build collaboration when everyone is working at home and has slightly variant schedules and potentially is distracted by their own personal issues or complexities? Any suggestions for folks on how to build virtual connection? KANINA BLANCHARD: Absolutely. There are so many, and we only have so much time. But just a few ideas. One, be patient. Everyone is in a different place. And what we know about communications as a field is that different people resonate with different kinds of communication. So some people read. Some people are auditory. Some people are visual. So keep in mind that if your goal through your communication is to ensure understanding or build awareness or to create collaboration, you need to think about that all your employees or your stakeholders are also different. And so just doing things one way blanket in one email doesn't mean you've communicated. All that means is you've sent out information. So think about the different ways you can communicate. You can write it. You can record a video. You could have open town halls. You could create social spaces like coffee or cooler discussions, where people who need that social interaction can self-select to come in. Offer to do it at different times. If you're working in a global environment-- it's one of the things I've found working internationally, is that my colleagues in Asia were always the ones-- and when I worked in Asia, I learned this myself-- are always the ones starting the earliest and ending the latest. So if you're going to have a session with your employees or you want to meet one-on-one, think about what time zone they're in and do it at a time, it might be inconvenient to you. But boy, that's going to send a signal of collaboration and care to someone sitting in Hong Kong 12 hours away that very few other things can do. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's fantastic. And again, what I'm hearing from you, again, as a leader is really just thinking about your employees, stakeholders-- where they're at, and kind of bridging the gap by meeting them at that starting point versus just what's convenient for you. So again, some care and compassion in these times. KANINA BLANCHARD: You know, someone might be out there listening going, how much more can I possibly do? It just seems like we load more and more on managers and leaders. And considering these times of opportunity to be the best you can be is really important. But I would say, don't go down the superhero path. We've seen through the last many decades that superheroes tend to not only burn out and harm themselves and their families and their organizations, but that's not a way to win. We are in a marathon. COVID-19 is a marathon. It is not a sprint. So these are all best practices. And I hope the leaders listening are motivated by the difference they can make. But it also starts with self-care. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And what does that mean, self-care? That's a hot term right now. But from your perspective, how can leaders practice that, or what do they need to be mindful of? KANINA BLANCHARD: I think everybody is different, and so there is no one checkbox or list that's going to help. But I think that one thing I've seen developing over the last 30, 35 years that I've been in business is this idea of the importance of reflection, this importance of taking time-- whether it's even 10 minutes-- to stop and to think, and sometimes simply clear our minds. So there are people who are practicing meditation or mindfulness. It could be taking a walk. It's the small things that we do to take care of ourselves and take care of others. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And it's interesting, as you've talked-- and a thread that I'm taking away from this call-- is a bit of this authenticity, right? We're all in it together. Saying I'm tired, my neck is hurting, and just putting that out there allows people to connect at a very human level-- which I think is really important during these times, because people are in that place of fear and uncertainty. So I love this message that I've been hearing anyway around just being you and being authentic, and sharing that with others. So Kanina, you have seen the before and after of many crises through your career. I'm curious, from your vantage point as you think about COVID-19, do you foresee any positive impacts or lessons or practices resulting from this scenario? KANINA BLANCHARD: Absolutely. I think about the things that I'm seeing in the news today-- we have young people who are starting businesses that aren't there to make money. But they're volunteering their skills to develop-- for example, in Portugal I heard about a young student who started a web app where people who cannot rent their homes right now are being matched with health care providers who can't go home in the fear of spreading disease. I've heard about people who have developed apps around COVID where they've been offered money for their apps and instead they've said, no, this is a public service. We're seeing governments do things that are truly unprecedented. We have governments that are stepping up early and fast and trying. And of course, there's always going to be criticism and critique, and there's always going to be things that we can do better. But look at the packages that are being put together to help ensure that people, even in these hard times, we can have food on our table. We're trying to help marginalized people make sure that they have food on their tables. We're trying to help students. There is an effort under way today that we will learn from. And in reality, when the next crisis comes-- and it will-- I think we will have learned so much, a lot of good and some bad. And if we embrace the failures and improve on the successes, we will together succeed moving forward and grow. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that, a feeling of hope and a recognition that even in these tough times, people are generally good and everyone is trying their best to kind of navigate through. Kanina, this has been fantastic. And I know I've taken a number of notes and lessons that I will use in my own world and share with friends and colleagues. So I really do appreciate your insights and your enthusiasm that you shared with us today. ANNOUNCER: And now, let's get to know our guest a little better with some rapid-fire questions. TINEKE KEESMAAT: As we wrap up, one of the practices that we would like to do on LeaderLab is to help our listeners get to know you even more as a person with some rapid-fire questions. So if you don't mind, I have five questions for you here around the themes of the time that we're spending at home. So don't think too hard, but your first response. Your go-to comfort food? KANINA BLANCHARD: Gluten-free pasta. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Do you like to go for a workout or curl up with a book to regenerate yourself? KANINA BLANCHARD: Oh gosh, neither. I'm working on my PhD, so I read when I have to. I love my audiobooks, and I love walking with my family and my ridiculous basset hound who howls and sings and always brings a smile to our face. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Nice. One item you could never live without. KANINA BLANCHARD: Well, I think my answer needs to be my husband right now. And I don't think I should call him an "item." But I think one of the things that we're learning-- we have eight people living under our roof right now. And what helps us survive, I think, is each other and that sense that you're not going through it alone. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's wonderful. Your favorite cartoon character? KANINA BLANCHARD: I think it sort of maybe depends on the day. For some reason, just what popped into my mind right now is the Tasmanian Devil. I have no idea why. Maybe that reflects the way the world is feeling right now. That's what I've got for you. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And your work from home attire-- PJs, fully dressed, or a little bit of both? KANINA BLANCHARD: Absolutely a little bit of both. You'll never catch me in pantyhose. But at least from the waist up, I feel that I am more productive and I am engaging with the people who I'm speaking with in a respectful and honest and a professional manner when I've gone the business casual route, for sure. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love it. I love it. Amazing. Kanina, thank you again for the time today. ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on LeaderLab. LeaderLab is powered by Tiltco, helping exceptional leaders achieve extraordinary results, and the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School, Canada's home for learning and development. You can learn more about Tiltco and LeaderLab at tiltco.ca. And to find out more about The Ivey Academy, go to iveyacademy.com

canada learning leadership olympic games crisis canadian professor phd practice tips positive leaders hong kong thrive ceos offer lift communicate align memorable women in leadership c suite accenture thesis demonstrate ld blanchard crisis management involve pjs mckinsey company tasmanian devils ivey business school tessa virtue scott moir announcer thank announcer welcome

EP:3.2 The show must go on during COVID-19 with S-Curve Records' Angela Barkan

LeaderLab

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 15, 2020 31:10

In this episode, Angela Barkan discusses: Her role at S-Curve Records (02:01) How the music industry has been impacted by COVID-19 (02:51) How technology is helping her team stay connected (05:03) The importance of in-person interactions in creative fields and how her team is recreating that social atmosphere in isolation (05:58) What her team is doing to keep on top of pop culture and entertainment trends (07:37) How people are coming together to make promotions and entertainment work during social isolation (11:10) How they’re trying to learn from the risks they have to take (13:12) Changes she hopes will her team/industry will keep once the crisis passes (17:44) How the crisis has levelled the playing field for everyone in the organization when it comes to ideas and contributions (19:54) How she’s handling the crisis as a leader (21:29) Ways to check in on the mental/emotional health of employees and keep things light (24:28) Her advice to leaders (26:51) The one item she couldn’t live without during the crisis (29:54) Angela’s advice for leaders: Be flexible and find ways to adapt (09:01) Don’t be afraid to take risks – especially when there’s no playbook (09:22) Don’t focus on perfection; try new things and learn from them (13:48) Empower all employees to feel like they have a voice (18:36) Be open to different perspectives from within the organization (19:41) Be kind to yourself (21:35) Show empathy for your team and each member’s situation during the crisis (23:53) Connect with your colleagues on a human level (25:29) Embrace small successes (27:01) More about Angela Barkan: Angela Barkan is vice president of marketing at S-Curve Records/BMG. She has more than 15 years’ experience in the entertainment industry, and has spearheaded integrated campaigns for global celebrities as well as developed new and rising talent. She has worked closely with nationally recognized celebrities including Mariah Carey, Dave Matthews Band, Placido Domingo and Dolly Parton, as well as upcoming talent such as International YouTube stars The Piano Guys. At S-Curve Records, she works with a wide roster of artists including Andy Grammer, Netta and The O’Jays. Barkan has been repeatedly recognized for top performance and selected to work with top company leaders. She’s a frequent speaker on industry panels for events with CMJ, MTV's Youth Marketing Forum and NYU/Stern Alumni. She’s also a member of the Arts Committee for Central Park Summerstage / City Parks Foundations, which brings free concerts and events to Central Park and 17 neighborhood parks in New York City. Barkan holds an MBA from NYU and a BA from Cornell University. Links to additional resources: https://s-curverecords.com https://cityparksfoundation.org/summerstage Produced by: Kara Kennedy from TITLCO Consulting More about TILTCO: TILTCO is a boutique consulting company that helps leaders define and execute their strategies in order to achieve extraordinary business and personal results. Founded by Tineke Keesmaat who has over 20 years of leadership consulting experience with McKinsey & Company, Accenture and now TILTCO Inc. More about The Ivey Academy at the Ivey Business School: The Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School is the home for executive Learning and Development (L&D) in Canada. It is Canada’s only full-service L&D house, blending Financial Times top-ranked university-based executive education with talent assessment, instructional design and strategy, and behaviour change sustainment Full transcript: TINEKE KEESMAAT: Hi, it's Tineke here. Welcome to today's LeaderLab. As you know, LeaderLab is focused on having inspiring leaders share their stories and practical tips in order to help other leaders be even more effective. Today is March 31st, 2020, and leaders across the world are in the uncharted territory of dealing with a global health pandemic of coronavirus. There's no playbook for leaders on how to tackle the enormous economic, social and emotional challenges brought on by this epidemic. Our next few episodes will be focused on how leaders are personally managing through these times, what they're doing and what they're learning. Our hope is that by sharing these lessons and stories, we can help each other as we navigate through these uncertain times. ANNOUNCER: Welcome to LeaderLab where we talk to experts about how leaders can excel in a modern world, helping leaders for over 20 years. Your host, Tineke Keesmaat. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Today, I am thrilled to be talking with Angela Barkan. Angi is a results-oriented, pop culture savvy, media executive. In her role, she spearheads campaigns to bring the work of talented musicians into our homes. She's worked with global celebrities and develops new and rising talent. You'll be familiar with many of the artists she's worked with in her over 20 years in the business: Yo-Yo Ma, Mariah Carey, Dave Matthews Band, Christina Aguilera and The Piano Guys, to name a few. In her current role at S-Curve Records, part of BMG, Angi serves as the vice president of marketing. There she works with a wide roster of artists including Andy Grammer, AJR, Leslie Odom Jr., Netta, The O'Jays, Duran Duran and many others. Angi holds an MBA from NYU and a BA from Cornell University. She's passionate about arts and the youth and is a proud member of the City Parks Foundations Art Committee, which provides free concerts to New York City parks. Angi also speaks at many industry events. Angi, thank you so much for joining us on today's LeaderLab. So Angi, the music industry is fascinating and I'm curious if you can share a perspective on what you do within that industry. ANGELA BARKAN: I'm the vice president of marketing at a record label called S-Curve Records, which is part of BMG. And basically, my role, to dumb it down, is once the music comes into me, it's my job to make sure that the world hears it in any way possible. So that's either by live concerts, on the radio, on TV, on digital platforms-- like Spotify, iTunes-- with brand partnerships and, then, the next level is, of course, to maximize all the revenue streams that come from that. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So Angi, as we talked about, we're focusing our LeaderLab series around how leaders are navigating the uncharted territory of coronavirus. And I was curious if you could share with us how your industry and your role has been impacted. ANGELA BARKAN: Everything has been thrown on its head and changed to really what everyone is calling the new normal. The most obvious impact in our industry would be live touring. Spring and summer festivals are postponed-- postponed or canceled. And that's impacting, of course, not only the artists, but everyone who's involved in that and some roles that you might not think about like the person who takes the tickets at the venues or the person who is setting up the bar, lighting, bus drive-- tour bus drivers. It's really-- the trickle down effect has been pretty devastating for everyone. I think the second area that the virus has really impacted, obviously, is physical sales across all industries, right, because no one can go to the stores. Also on the production level, a lot of the plants and distribution centers are closing or operating at a much lower capacity, so it's just harder to get things out. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I know that your leadership team at S-Curve, basically, decided that the show needed to go on in this environment. Can you talk to me a little bit about the conversation that your team had to make that decision and then to guide the actions that you guys have been taking. ANGELA BARKAN: I wish it was-- I wish I could say it was a cautious, well-planned out decision, but really it was more kind of triage, right? Like every industry, like every team, I think, has had to do the show must go on, literally and figuratively. And we just had to hunker down and figure out how to adapt to what is our new reality, hopefully, for another month or so but who knows. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Can you give me some examples of how you've had to adapt or initiatives that your teams have put in place in this, hopefully, not forever new normal times? ANGELA BARKAN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, on a very granular level, when I'm not in the office, I'm in Toronto, some of our colleagues are in Florida and New York and California. We're all spread out. So technology has really been saving grace. Every day we've been doing one or two Zoom calls with the entire team, and that's really helped. We've been communicating on Microsoft Teams, just really upped the communication as much as possible. There are certain things, I think, that it's very easy to take for granted when you can just walk over to someone's office or have a casual business talk over lunch, and you're, actually, really getting things done. And those types of interactions aren't there anymore so you have to figure out a way to replace that. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And has-- do you have some examples of how you've personally been replacing those? ANGELA BARKAN: You know, the entertainment industry thrives on creativity. And so it's a little difficult sometimes to be creative when your little box is on a screen talking to each other. TINEKE KEESMAAT: No doubt. ANGELA BARKAN: And so some of the interactions, like, just at the coffee machine or when we go see one of our artists at a show, like, those types of moments where ideas come through just sort of natural conversation being in a creative environment, aren't there anymore. So we have done some fun things to try to recreate them. For example, we've been sending each other playlists on Spotify. We've been doing virtual happy hours, just to kind of chat, just to talk about what's going on in pop culture and keep our minds in a creative space where we know what's going on beyond the four walls of our apartments or houses where we're-- or, in my case, Airbnb-- where we're stuck right not. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I can imagine that some of those playlists are pretty incredible given the industry that you guys are in. So, hopefully, you're learning some new music and share-- getting to know each other better through that process as well. ANGELA BARKAN: Being in a creative industry, and in the entertainment industry, our job is to entertain, that's our responsibility, and to help our artists continue to do that even with these unusual circumstances. So one of the things that we've been doing to keep the communication going is really simple. We've just been all contributing ideas onto a Google Document of different things that we've seen, different-- what different artists have been doing on social media, how our competitors have been responding to this, how, even brands and outlets beyond our industry, have been responding to try to keep their consumers engaged. And so we've been doing it on a micro level just within our record label, but we've also been doing it on a larger level, globally with BMG. And it's really great because we can see what other countries are doing. This virus has, unfortunately, become an international situation. And so it's really interesting to just see how different cultures, different countries are responding to this and remembering that music is global, right? So we're not just talking about people in our country, we're really trying to reach the world with what we're doing. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that collaboration and creativity in this moment, right? Just no ideas, there's no perfect answer. People haven't done this before. So just any idea that people are seeing or feeling, just putting that out there for other people to learn from. I just love how dynamic that feels as you're describing it. ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. I mean, adapt is the main word, right? Every single person from a grocery store to the ride share industry to travel industry to retail to music and entertainment has had to adapt and adapt really quickly. And I think there's a lot of trial and error and risks that are being taken that wouldn't have been taken before, and I think that's kind of a blessing. We're all in uncharted territory. And, I think, there's something really freeing about being able to take some creative risks and just try some things out, knowing that it might not work but it might work, and it might be really cool, and that's kind of an exciting thing. TINEKE KEESMAAT: You've done some pretty cool things with your artist and that probably would not fly in the old world, but you've pushed the artist and the technology to support the artists to try different things. Can you give us some examples of what that has meant in the last week or two? ANGELA BARKAN: One of our artists, Leslie Odom Jr.-- you might know him from Hamilton on Broadway, he recently costarred in Harriet and he's also an amazing singer, shameless plug. He has a new album out called Mr. He was-- he's really been-- this whole campaign has really been impacted by this. We were in the middle of a promotion cycle. His tour has been postponed until the fall and, part and parcel of that, his TV appearances have been impacted. So yesterday, he was supposed to do the TV show, Live with Ryan and Kelly on ABC. That show is based in New York, he's based in LA and his band is based all over the place. So we had to adapt. We really wanted the show to go on from an entertainment perspective, certainly, from a commerce perspective. We're in the middle of a campaign for a new single. To his credit, and to the show's credit, we all really got together and took a really big risk. What we did was we filmed each of the musicians doing their parts, performing their-- performing their parts in their living room, in their basement, in their bedroom. And we edited all those parts together and, then, Leslie performed the song from his living room with a video of all the musicians behind him. And-- and it was amazing. Ryan Seacrest was in his kitchen, broadcasting. Kelly Ripa was in her living room. And it was just this-- it was just this really amazing moment of everyone-- everyone from the show, from the producers, from the audio people, from the network, the musicians and, of course, the label, and, of course, Leslie really taking a risk and being vulnerable in this time. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Yeah, I was going to say, these artists-- so that's like a fantastic example and I know a few of your other artists have livecast concerts from their homes. And it does strike me that these artists are vulnerable at the best of times, but often they have a ton of support around them. They've got to have hair and makeup. They've had people soundcheck, test things and they're having to be authentic in these moments and put themselves out there in their homes, probably, with a little less support around them than normal. And I'm just curious how that has felt for them or what you've experienced or observed from these artists that are exposing themselves in a new way. How did it go? ANGELA BARKAN: It actually went great. It was-- it really-- it was really cool to see and it was successful. The song-- we saw the song immediately jump up to number 15 on the iTunes chart, the record jumped up to number 16. There was a ton of social media noise about it. So I think, everyone really appreciated the fact that it wasn't a perfect scenario, but the show must go on. And it's a cliche, I think, for a reason because there's a lot of situations where the show must go on and this was-- this was a perfect example of it. And I think, was it perfect? No. And we did do a post mortem right after. We all got on Zoom, we talked about it. We talked about ways that we might change the audio, change some of the angles, do some things differently for the next time. But the important message that, I think, we can all internalize and then-- and, then, take, just moving forward when things go back to normal, is sometimes it's important to take risks even though the output might not be perfect. There's something to be learned and that can push everyone forward. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that. And I think that there's also-- what I'm hearing is also this vulnerability, right? So putting yourself out there in that risk. You're-- you know that you're showing up in a way that you may not normally have or your confidence may not be fully there, but from the story that you told of yesterday or other artists that I've seen live streaming from their home, I don't know, for me, personally, I'm connecting more to them in these moments where their hair is maybe not quite as coiffed as normal or you see their children running in behind them. I don't know, there's something about that authenticity that's happening right now and the vulnerability that it's making it easier to connect, than maybe when I see them perfectly on the screen or in a video. So there is something for me, personally, about that vulnerability and authenticity that is showing up in this moment. ANGELA BARKAN: Totally. I mean, yeah, I love that and I-- and I agree with you. You know, there's really-- there's a connection that, I think, artists are able to make with their fans. And the message is, really, we're all in this together, just like you're, maybe, working in your pajamas. I'm trying to write a song with my kids running around as I'm also trying to make them lunch. These are real-- these are real situations. I also think-- it's interesting, we have another band called AJR, which is three brothers. And for them, now they're playing sold-out shows at Radio City and the Greek in LA. But they started as three brothers busking in Washington Square Park, just outside. And what's interesting with them is, in some ways, this has required them to go back to those roots. The other day, they did an Instagram live from their living room. And they had a keyboard there and Adam, the bass player, had his base, but-- but the lead singer, Jack, obviously, a lot of the instrumentation was missing. And so what did he do? He grabbed a bottle of vitamins and used them as a shaker. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that. ANGELA BARKAN: And it was, like, a perfect example of taking a risk and adapting and trying something. And it might not be perfect, but it was still something, and it was great. It was really, really cool. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I'm sure it's probably liberating, too, in some ways, right? Because people are able-- are being a bit more forgiving and recognizing that everyone's just trying their best right now, that if I'm an artist, I love sound and how can I add this vitamin D mix to the-- to the set and see how it feels. There might be some creativity and liberation that is happening for artists during this time-- in this, again, these strange, strange times that are right now. ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. And who knows? If there's anyone listening who works for a big vitamin company, call me. You know, there could be some really interesting partnerships that come out of this. Who knows? TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that, I love that. So Angi, these are incredible examples of creativity and risk-taking and pushing technology and, I think, that they've been very meaningful in order to help people continue to connect to artists and to music in these periods of isolation and uncertainty. It sounds like you've had some fun experimenting. And I'm curious if there are things that you've been doing that you hope, actually, continue when the world goes "back to normal", quote, unquote. ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. And I think the thing that I hope that we continue is really experimenting with technology and pushing ourselves and our partners to find new ways of doing things, to find new ways of entertaining, bringing music into the home, making it more accessible, making it more interactive. You know, some of the things Instagram is doing and TikTok are just incredible in terms of bringing-- bringing fans and the artist together. So we do think those things will continue. Maybe some artists that weren't as keen on it originally, now have been forced to use it. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Right. ANGELA BARKAN: And-- and I'm hoping it will-- and I'm hoping it'll stay because it's really- it's really exciting. Something else I've noticed, just from a managerial perspective, is everyone at the table, let's call it at the Zoom table in their own little box, has been kind of empowered to come up with ideas. At S-Curve we're really not hierarchical at all, everyone does have a voice. But I'm noticing it even more now, anyone can come up with a good idea. And, I think, everyone sort of feels empowered in what is the Wild West right now to come up with an idea because it's just sort of this free space of, like, with an attitude of, may as well try it. And so because of that, it's kind of fun and it's giving-- I hope it's giving some people that maybe aren't normally as vocal, at different levels in the company, a chance to really shine and have their ideas noticed more. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Hopefully, it allows people to feel like they can vocalize. But I'm also hearing an openness of leaders to, actually, hear the ideas differently than they may have in the past. Is that fair? ANGELA BARKAN: Absolutely. I mean, I've been-- so I've been in this business for 20 years and I've never experienced anything like this before, right, and none of my colleagues have. And so years of experience is certainly helpful in navigating. It's also very obvious that this is the first time for all of us in this situation. And so anyone can really come up with a great idea. And there's nothing to compare it to based on experience because this is our first time for everyone. It's everyone's first time in this unique situation. So in some ways, that's kind of very-- it really levels the playing field, but in a way that I feel in a creative industry, especially, is very exciting. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Angi, I love just this idea of leaders being open to new ideas because ideas can come from anywhere. And because there's nothing to compare them to right now, in this context, it does make listening to these ideas all the more important. One of the things that I'm really conscious of is that we are asking a lot of our leaders, in this context-- so you've got people that are having to push bounds within their business organizations. You're having them lead teams where their teams are all going through different psychosocial economic challenges, and then you're putting these leaders in places where they have to work from home, where they've got children or aging parents or issues with things, just day-to-day tasks that are, what, how do I get groceries? And I think, the stress that leaders are under is incredible at this time. And I'm curious, for yourself, how are you personally managing through the challenges of this context? ANGELA BARKAN: Yeah, I mean, it's a great-- it's a great question. It's a lot of trial and error. And-- and, I think, I'm just trying to be kind to myself and put a little less pressure on myself. In general, I'm a pretty regimented person in the sense that I like a schedule, I like a checklist, I like to complete my checklist by the end of the day, things like that. And the reality is it's just not happening now. And so, I think, being forgiving with myself, that, just like everyone else is learning how to navigate this new work situation, so am I. And, I mean, I have a 7-year-old so, certainly, homeschooling has played a role in this now. And also just making sure that we're taking care of ourselves. I mean, one good thing that's happened from this is I've started yoga and I'm forcing myself. The Nike app is now free and I've been forcing myself to do yoga every day. And I'm terrible at it, but I think it's helping a little. TINEKE KEESMAAT: For sure. I've been forcing my husband and I, also, to make sure that every day we get some sort of physical activity. So just for the sanity, right, to keep-- to focus on myself for a moment, but also just to stay active physically. It really does help, I think. ANGELA BARKAN: And I think, also, we can't underestimate that there's a lot of pressure right now. I mean, businesses, overall, are at a very vulnerable place, and it is a little scary. And so, I think, we have to really keep in mind that the job has to happen. We have to try to push and be aggressive and get as much done as we possibly can. But we can't forget the emotional element of all of this, which you mentioned. On our team, alone, someone-- someone's family friend just passed away from the virus. Two people on our team, actually, have the virus. Luckily, it's not serious, but they're dealing with it. And so, I think, everyone just-- just needs to be flexible, but also empathetic and realize that people deal with trauma, which is really what this is. It's a traumatic situation, differently, and just to try to kind of be in tune with people's emotions, especially now. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And just tactically, how are you finding it to pick up on people's emotions through Skype or Zoom or Team? Are you able to detect or is there something that you're doing independent of that to keep a pulse of your individual employees? ANGELA BARKAN: I think, we're been pretty good, even on our Zoom calls, in just checking in with people. Everyone's pretty intuitive, I think, in that way. We've added some fun elements to our Zoom calls. For example, one of the guys on our team has the most amazing vinyl collection, probably, I don't know, he probably has like 10,000, 15,000 records and he likes to sit his chair right in front of the vinyl collection. So every day, we have Steve's record of the day and he picks a very eclectic record out of his-- out of his wall and tells us some interesting obscure facts about the band. And we all laugh about it because no one's ever heard it because it's no obscure. And-- and it's become-- it's just a little thing, but it sort of lightens the conversation a little bit and it just adds an element of, like, OK, we all still work in music. We can all still laugh. We can also have a little bit of fun. Another one of my colleagues, we joke that she's dived into the world of TikTok, which is becoming increasingly important in the music industry. So we all talk about her different TikTok videos every day and we're just trying to connect on different levels. I had a call with one of my colleagues, yesterday, about how we're trying to homeschool our kids. So, I think, it's just trying to find a way to add a human, non-business element to the group calls and then also individual-- just individual check-ins to be, like, hey, what's up? How are you feeling? What's going on? What-- how did your workout go other day? Just, how's your relationship going? Just, like, basic-- basic human things-- basic human interactions, I think, are more important than ever right now. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love that, just connecting as individuals. And this conversations, not only feel light and fun, but they also show that you care about each other. And, I think, that care is so important at this moment. Do you have any advice for leaders in this moment? So one practical thing that you would advise leaders to do as we navigate through this uncharted time. ANGELA BARKAN: I think, one thing that is really important for everyone to remember, not only-- not only leaders, which is everyone going through this, is, like, this too shall pass. This is a terrible time, but there are some good things that will come out of this. And, I think, we need to embrace the small moments, the small successes, where we're working as a team and things are going well, and just accept the things that aren't-- that aren't going so well and I know that they'll get better. Look, 20 years ago-- 19 years ago, actually, I lived through September 11th, living in New York. Granted, these are very different situations, but that feeling of feeling bewildered, feeling confused, not knowing what tomorrow will bring, all of those feelings, I think, are similar. And we all got through it, and we'll all get through this. And, I think, reminding people that this is just another chapter will be helpful and especially taking care of some of the younger-- younger people on the team, especially in music. I work with a lot of people in their early 20s who are living away from home, whose parents might be in other countries. And I think, just taking a page [INAUDIBLE] out of parenting, I think, and being a good friend and being there for emotional support, is one of the most important things leaders can do right now because that's how you'll inspire people and get the best work out of them [INAUDIBLE] as well. If people are feeling good, then they're motivated to produce. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Angi, this has been incredible. I think, in this conversation, I've just loved the messages about being creative, taking risks, being authentic, connecting as people. It's been truly inspiring to hear. So thank you, first of all, for taking the time, but secondly, for also having the show go on because I know that so many people are connecting to artists and to your work during these moments. So from the bottom my heart, thank you so much. ANGELA BARKAN: Thanks so much for having me. This has been great. TINEKE KEESMAAT: No problem. We do want to finish up with one thing that we do on LeaderLab is we ask our guests a bunch of fun questions, and we do want to wrap up with those. Again, don't think too hard, they are just intended to be fun. ANNOUNCER: And now, let's get to know our guest a little better with some rapid fire questions. TINEKE KEESMAAT: We're going to go with the theme of comforts at home in these times. ANGELA BARKAN: OK. TINEKE KEESMAAT: First question, your go to comfort food? ANGELA BARKAN: Mac and cheese. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your go to, do you go for a workout or curl up with a book? ANGELA BARKAN: Oh, gosh, curl up with a book, but I'm really trying, really trying to make it a workout. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's [INAUDIBLE]. One item that you could never live without? ANGELA BARKAN: Netflix, I'm addicted to Tiger King like the rest of the world. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Oh, you're the third person that has told me that in the last two days. That's so funny. ANGELA BARKAN: I mean, it's so crazy. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your favorite cartoon character? ANGELA BARKAN: My favorite cartoon character is Snoopy. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And your work from home attire: PJ's, fully dressed or a little bit of both? ANGELA BARKAN: Well, I'd love to tell you that I'm wearing a Blazer right now, with a very cool rock and roll t-shirt underneath, but, in fact, I am wearing sweatpants from the Gap. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Lovely. I'm in workout gear so, hopefully, that helps you feel better. Angi, again, this has been truly amazing and I really appreciate you taking the time. ANGELA BARKAN: Thank you, guys, so much. This was really fun. ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on LeaderLab. LeaderLab is powered by Tiltco, helping exceptional leaders achieve extraordinary results, and the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School, Canada's home for learning and development. You can learn more about Tiltco and LeaderLab @tiltco.ca. And to find out more about the Ivey Academy, go to iveyacademy.com.

Kubernetes Operating Systems (Ep 20)

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 9, 2020 35:30

Running Kubernetes on conventional operating systems is time-consuming and labor-intensive. Today’s guests Andrew Rynhard and Timothy Gerla have engineered a product that attempts to provide a solution to this problem. They call it Talos, and it is a modern OS designed specifically to host Kubernetes clusters, managed by a flexible and powerful API. Talos is completely stripped down to the bare components required to run Kubernetes and get information from the system. It stays updated by keeping time with Kubernetes, but also provides the user with a large degree of control in the event that they might need to update a flag. In this episode, Andrew and Timothy get into some of the mechanics and thought processes behind Talos, telling us why they went with a read-only API, how they handle security concerns on the OS, and how a system like theirs might get adopted by the Kubernetes community and layperson more broadly. They get into the advantages provided by a stripped-down solution for systematizing the use of Kubernetes across communities and running new components through clusters rather than on the OS itself. In a space where most participants are largely operating in the dark, it is a pleasure to see innovations like this display such lasting power so make sure you check out this episode. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Guests: Andrew Rynhard https://twitter.com/andrewrynhard Tim Gerla https://twitter.com/tybstar Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Olive Power Key Points From This Episode: What a Kubernetes OS is: a stripped-down OS that integrates with Kubernetes. The difficulties of managing and getting Kubernetes installed on regular OSs. Why a Kubernetes OS? Less attack surface and OS compatibility issues. What Talos does: quickly makes nodes part of a Kubernetes cluster by being stripped down. How replacing SSH with an API alleviates some users’ security concerns. A command-line interface called OSCTL that allows users to explore the API. What does ‘stripped-down’ mean? Talos runs kubelets and gets information from the OS. The ability to run new components through clusters rather than from the OS. How the Kubernetes OS evolves with Kubernetes but gets separately controlled too. Better integrating into Kubernetes by abstracting OS features into Kubernetes as operators. Security precautions: kernel hardening, SSH and Bash removal, and a read-only OS. Usability of Talos for the average Joe, and its consistency across base platforms. Possibilities for interacting with deeper levels of an OS through an API managed OS. How Talos might become appealing to laypeople: decreasing costs for porting to it. Value gained from switching to a purpose-built OS as something which could outweigh costs. Tendencies to hang onto tried and trusted tech even if its predecessors are superior. Quotes: “To me, it’s just about abstracting away the operating system and not even having to worry about it anymore, and looking at Kubernetes and the entire cluster as an operating system.” — Andrew Rynhard [0:05:00] “As rapid as the technology is changing, you need an operating system that is going to evolve with it or at least the operations intelligence to evolve with Kubernetes right alongside it.” — Andrew Rynhard [0:13:08] “The challenge I think for us and for anybody changing the way that operating systems work is is it better enough than what I have today or what I had before?” — @tybstar [0:26:50] “There’s a lot of companies out there who got us at this point in tech that don’t exist anymore, but if they didn’t do what they did, we would not be here right now.” — @bryanl [0:33:41] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Talos — https://www.talos-systems.com/ Timothy Gerla — http://www.gerla.net/ Timothy Gerla on Twitter — https://twitter.com/tybstar Andrew Ryndhard on LinkedIn —https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewrynhard/ Andrew Ryndhard on GitHub — https://github.com/andrewrynhard Jed Salazar on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/jedsalazar/ Bryan Liles on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanliles/ Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisia/ Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/en/technologies/linux-platforms/enterprise-linux Arch — https://www.archlinux.org/Debian — https://www.debian.org/ Linux — https://www.linux.org/ Bell Labs — http://www.bell-labs.com/ AT&T — https://www.att.com/ Transcript: EPISODE 20 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your Cloud Native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Podlets. Today we have a special episode, and on the show, we have a special guest, Andrew Ryndhard. Say hi, Andrew. [00:00:53] AR: Hello, how are you? [00:00:55] CC: We also have Timothy Gerla. Say hi, Tim. [00:00:58] TG: Hi. Thanks for having me. [00:01:00] CC: Yeah. Andrew and Timothy are from Talos. Andrew dropped an issue on our GitHub repo and here we are. It was a great suggestion. What we’re going to talk about today is what they are working on, which is a Kubernetes operating system. We have tons of questions for them for sure. We also have a special participant on the episode today as a co-host, Jed Salazar. Hi, Jed. [00:01:28] JS: Hey, everyone. Jed Salazar here from the CRE team here at VMware. [00:01:31] CC: And Bryan Liles. [00:01:32] BL: Hi. [00:01:33] CC: Hi. And me, Carlisia Campos. Who’d like to get the party started and kick this off? [00:01:41] BL: Oh, I’m here. Let’s throw the gauntlet down. We’re talking about Kubernetes operating systems today. I have an operating system, a Mac, or I have Linux. I can run Kubernetes. What is a Kubernetes operating system and why should I even be thinking about this? [00:01:58] AR: Sure. I’d like to think about Kubernetes operating system as an operating system that has stripped down the absolute bare minimum to run Kubernetes. Everything that is required to run the kubelet, and essentially that’s it, at least in my opinion. It should be super minimal to start with. Second of all, I also think that it should integrate with Kubernetes as well. The combination of just being able to strip down Linux as we know as small as possible and then actually integrating with Kubernetes itself using APIs to figure out things about itself, whatever. I think that that, in my opinion, is what I would call a Kubernetes OS. [00:02:42] BL: Interesting. Okay. Now that we know a little bit about Kubernetes operating systems, and like I said, I’m starting in early today as the devil’s advocate. Now, like I said before, I have a Mac and I have Linux and I have Windows on my desktop. There’re been lots of efforts from lots of people trying to get Kubernetes running up on Ubuntu or Fedora, and it’s cool that you’re trying to slim this down, but really why would I look at a Kubernetes operating system over my Linux that I’m familiar with? I like Ubuntu with Debian. [00:03:17] AR: Sure. That’s a great question. It’s one we get a lot. I like to think that you actually just get less operational overhead when you actually have a Kubernetes-specific operating system. I think that Kubernetes itself is a job, managing it, getting it installed, unfortunately. It’s getting better, but it’s still a job at the end of the day. Having to manage Kubernetes and the operating system, everything that you need to pass compliance on the operating system, get all the packages installed, these are all things that we kind of know that Kubernetes needs already and yet we’re still having to go in and app install whatever we might need to get Kubernetes up and running. The idea with a Kubernetes operating system in my mind is that we should stop worrying about the individual node, the underlying operating system and start looking at Kubernetes as a whole as a giant machine and we just add machines, nodes to this giant machine that give us extra resources. The less that we have to care about the machine or the underlying operating system, the better, in my mind. We get to focus on Kubernetes. Not only that, but because it’s minimal, you get a smaller attack surface. There’re just not things there that you would otherwise have to worry about. I’ve done Kubernetes for three years now and having to go in and worry about updating packages that are just completely unrelated, it’s something that I think we shouldn’t have to do anymore. If you’re dedicated to running your apps and your stack in Kubernetes, then why are we going in and managing the nodes on an individual basis. For that matter, managing things that don’t really have any relevance for running Kubernetes. To me, it’s just about abstracting away the operating system and not even having to worry about it anymore and looking at Kubernetes and the entire whole cluster as an operating system. We can’t really get there if we’re having to worry about the two jobs of managing both at the same time. [00:05:17] JS: Andrew, can I ask a follow up question? [00:05:18] AR: Sure. [00:05:20] JS: I fully agree with all of those statements. I think a general purpose operating system might not be the best job for a specific role, like being a Kubernetes node. As you mentioned, you have to deal with kind of all the various packages that might be beneficial to you if you’re running it for some general purpose. It’s really supposed to be running a workload as a Kubernetes node so you can kind of scope that down. I’m just wondering when you kind of make this pitch or kind of let these folks know, how do you get folks to kind of relinquish their desire to have full control over their operating system from being able to install their own security management processes on it or being a little bit shy about not being able to SSH or kind of use their common patterns of operating system management? [00:06:09] AR: Oh, that’s a great question. I think the biggest thing that I always answer back is – I can take this in two parts. Let me first of all talk about what – People, they do want to run things on the host. My answer always back is can you run it in Kubernetes? Kubernetes is sort of your package manager, if you will. They sit back usually and they’re like, “Hmm. Yeah, I probably could.” If you need to run something on every host, Kubernetes has something for that. It’s a daemon set. Run it on Kubernetes and call it a day. This isn’t something that’s going to work for absolutely everything I imagine. Nothing in the world is like that. But I think for the majority of the use cases out there and for the things that people want to run on the host, you could actually just run it in Kubernetes itself. As far as SSH and for those that don’t really know what we’ve done in Talos, in Talos we’ve actually stripped down just the kernel and a small Go lang binary that’s our – That, basically, its whole goal is to create a Kubernetes cluster or make a node part of a Kubernetes cluster as fast as possible, and that’s really it. We’ve gone so far as ripping out Bash and SSH and we’ve actually replaced that with an API. My answer always back to the SSH question is what is it that you really trying to get out of SSH? 9 times out of 10, it’s, “I want to get information about what’s wrong. I want to do troubleshooting.” If our answer back to them is, “Oh! We have an API for that,” you still at the end of the day – it’s really the information that you’re after. It’s not necessarily that you need SSH to do that. You need a way to get this information and not necessarily have to sit there and wait for a Prometheus metric, see it pulled it every minute. You want something right on the spot. You want to ask a question and you want to get an immediate answer. I feel like we can answer that with an API. That tends to satisfy the desire for wanting SSH most of the time. I mean, as you said, people are still going to want to hold on to it, but I think over time we’re going to have to educate people that this is a better way. It’s a read-only API that gives operations engineers a way to get that information that they would otherwise get by SSH-ing and asking via Unix utilities what you want to know. [00:08:27] CC: When you say an API, are you also giving them a command line tool or like in the case of Talos, or only an actual API? [00:08:37] TG: Yeah, we do provide a command line interface to the API. It’s called OSCTL and it basically wraps our API, and our intention is that that will be used for exploration of the system, automation through scripting languages, etc. Then as you get more sophisticated with your environment, you might begin to build your own tools that interact directly with that API. [00:08:56] CC: Cool. Yeah, this is a really cool subject. I wasn’t even aware that Kubernetes operating system was a thing until really recently, and I don’t remember how I came across it. One question I have is, Andrew, you were saying, “Well, we strip down Kubernetes to the bare minimum.” How opinionated is it in your case in specific? When you say you – it’s a stripped down version to the bare minimum, this statement of bare minimum, would there be a consensus in the community that, yes, this set of functionality is the bare minimum? Is it your opinion of what the bare minimum should be? [00:09:38] AR: Sure. I think at the absolute bare minimum, we need to run the kubelet. In my mind, that’s really all we need, but you still have this practical issue of, like you said, you need to get information off that machine. You need to be able to kind of manage Kubernetes without having to need Kubernetes as a chicken and egg’s problem. That’s where the API was actually born. When I started Talos, I actually just built a very minimal strip down route-fs that all that did was run the kubelet. But figuring out why the kubelet wasn’t running successfully obviously was not very easy. I figured, “You know what? Let’s put an API in front of this. I want to keep this as minimal as possible. I want to keep this read-only.” I threw an API in front of it. I think you need two things, really. You need to have what’s required by the kubelet. You need a CNI. You need all the utilities that the kubelet will run and you also need a way to query the system. If that is – If in the case of other operating systems that are minimal operating systems, they have decided to do SSH and all the classic utilities that we all know and love, we went another route with an API. But I don’t think the operating system, the route-fs should have any more than what’s required by the kubelet. That would be the pie in the sky dream right there. [00:11:01] CC: The two questions that come to my mind are if I wanted to add Kubernetes components to that, would it be possible? If I wanted to add anything to the operating system, would it possible? I think the second question you already answered, which is, well, if you need to run – Correct me if I’m wrong. If you need to run something on the operating system that’s not there, you can run it in the actual cluster. [00:11:27] AR: Yeah, that’s the idea, is that Kubernetes gives us the APIs to do – We could schedule to specific nodes. We can schedule to a class of nodes. We can schedule to every single node. I think that you can actually handle a lot of the use cases out there for any kind of application with Kubernetes itself. I think that that’s really strong because you get one single consistent API in managing your infrastructure. I want to deploy applications for this team or this team. At the end of the day, everything is just declarative and Kubernetes will make it happen. You don’t have to worry about the scheduling and all of these different things. The only thing that the operating system is concerned about is making that machine available to the Kubernetes cluster. [00:12:10] BL: This idea of slimmed down operating systems, it’s not a new one. CoreOS was doing this years ago. One issue that CoreOS ran into was like, “Well, what’s current?” Well, it depends on what stream you’re on. How do you manage keeping everything up-to-date? [00:12:28] AR: Our goal is to keep pace with Kubernetes essentially. I know that, traditionally, there’s long-term support and there’s all these different ways of releasing different versions of an operating system, but Kubernetes isn’t really there yet. There is no notion that I know of of LTS in Kubernetes yet. There’s just, I believe, it’s N-2 or something like that where they actually offer official support. I think that the operating system is bound to that. I think that it needs to follow Kubernetes as close as possible. There’re constantly different feature gates being opened up. There’re things being graduated to GA. I think especially at this time right now, as rapid as the technology is changing, you need an operating system that is going to evolve with it or at least the operations intelligence to evolve with Kubernetes right alongside it. [00:13:20] BL: So that brings up an interesting point. I mean, there are two things here. There’s the operating system itself and there’s Kubernetes. Do they upgrade in lockstep or are they upgraded separately? [00:13:29] AR: I could only speak for ourselves. There are people that I think they actually have upgrades kind of be one and the same, where the operating system and a Kubernetes upgrade both happen. We’ve decided started to go the other route where we actually want to evolve our APIs sort of independently, but then give you a way to still manage Kubernetes on its own. We’ve actually done self-hosted Kubernetes. In Talos, we’ll actually bootstrap a lightweight control plane, small control plane and then we’ll spin up another control plane using the Kubernetes API. Then now, Kubernetes upgrades simply look like a kubectl edit. I’m going to update my daemon step for my API server. Then from there, you will have to basically update the kub. We use hyperkub for the kubelet. You have to tell Talos, “Use this kubelet image next time you boot.” We’ve separated the two I think for good reason. I think that the two should be able to evolve independently to give a little bit more power back to the user. If you combine them, if you couple them really closely, it becomes really, really opinionated. I think we should at least support what Kubernetes supports, and that’s the N-2 and leave it up to the user to kind of configure Kubernetes, but we still have same best practices out of the box. [00:14:54] BL: Yeah, that makes sense, because yesterday, what did we get? We got a Kubernetes 1.15.10, and I don’t know 16, but we got 1.17.3 yesterday too. You might not want to move, because you might not – 1.17 introduced a whole bunch of deprecations and for custom resource definition. You’re not ready to move yet. We’re on beta 1 for a while for CRDs. I totally see why you had moved that direction. [00:15:20] AR: Yeah, that’s exactly it. We can’t impose too much opinion, but I think that we should drive – The opinion at least up until like, “Hey, don’t worry about what’s on this machine. I’m going to make it a Kubernetes node for you. Just tell me which version you want.” I think that’s where we should draw the boundary and then we should still give the controls back to the user as far as what flags do I want to specify. What kind of feature gates? All these various things that you don’t get out of a lot of the different managed products out there. Hopefully we’ll be tittering right on the line of having that convenience of managed but still giving you that power and flexibility to update a flag if you need to. [00:16:04] CC: This episode is so in the style of an interrogation. It’s hilarious. [00:16:08] BL: That’s me. I’m digging in. [00:16:09] CC: I feel like – No. We are all digging in. It’s just because – At least speaking from myself. I’m super curious. I wanted to ask you, Andrew, at the beginning you were saying that a Kubernetes operating system needs to integrate with Kubernetes and I was sitting here thinking, “Operate? It’s supposed to be Kubernetes.” What did you have in mind when you said that? Did you mean to be able to interface with another Kubernetes cluster? Was that what you meant? [00:16:36] AR: Not quite. What I meant by that is there’s this really powerful thing that Kubernetes gives us in CRDs and this idea of operators or controllers. If you can actually have a way to use an operator controller, say, for upgrading your operating system, which we have in Talos, it’s just an upgrade operator lives in Kubernetes and knows how to talk to Kubernetes and it knows how to talk to our API and sort of orchestrate upgrades across the board. Part of that is, for example, when you receive the upgrade API on a Talos node, it actually is aware, “Hey, I’m running Kubernetes. I’m going to cordon myself, because I know I’ve gotten this and I know that I’m not going to be able to schedule workload on me.” I think that that’s just one example, but we could probably take that a lot farther one day. But I would like to see everything that we know and love about our operating systems today essentially be abstracted and pushed up into Kubernetes as operators. There’s a lot of power in that where you can actually orchestrate things, like I said, like upgrades. I think that that’s one example of how we can integrate better with Kubernetes as how an operating system should, at least. [00:17:45] CC: Got you. [00:17:46] JS: I was wondering if we can kind of maybe just pivot a little bit, like maybe to satisfy my own curiosities, but I was kind of hoping we could talk a little bit about like some of the selling features. Imagine if I’m a hardened sys admin or security team and basically someone comes up and says, “Hey, I want to run this Kubernetes operating system.” Knowing what I know about the state of security today and operating systems, there’s a lot of efforts to basically kind of contain things. No pun intended, but we have user space operates out of some type of sandbox. We have seccomp to limit sys calls. How does Talos approach security maybe like philosophically or maybe even down to the implementation details? What is security in Talos look like? [00:18:33] AR: Yeah. Again, our goal is to basically – We want people to forget about the operating system. But to forget about the operating system, you have to know it’s secure. You have to go to great lengths to secure that because you can’t forget about it for that reason. We actually go down to the kernel, we actually apply what’s called the kernel self-protection project. We basically try to harden the kernel, and at boot time, we do a bunch of checks to make sure that your kernel is running at least most of those configurations. I think we have a little bit of work to do as far as enforcing all of them. But we do some checks to ensure that your kernel is compatible with KSPP, for example. That alone has a ton of benefits to it. It’s a statically compiled kernel so you it can’t do any kernel module loading and stuff like that. That’s completely prohibited. That alone just kind of cuts off a lot of security issues in itself. Then going up the stack further, we’ve actually stripped out SSH. We stripped out Bash. So you have nothing that you can really log on to anymore. Again, that’s just flat out removes a lot of – A whole category of potential attacks potentially. Going even further than that, we’ve actually have Talos running completely out of RAM and it’s a squash-fs. So it’s a read-only file system. The only thing that actually uses a disk is the kubelet. The idea is that we want to make the operating system, again, just have it go away. Having it read-only I think is a really strong thing, and squash-fs in particular, because you can’t remount it, rewrite if you’re a user or something like that. Then up in Kubernetes we actually – Out of the box, we try to deploy it with all of the security best practices, the CIS benchmarks and all of that. We go to all the way from the kernel, to our user LAN and even to Kubernetes itself. We try to bring out security best practices out of the box. I think that’s something I’d love to see for Kubernetes itself upstream, but for now that’s what we’re doing. [00:20:33] BL: Can we go back to the interrogation? No. Let’s not go back to an interrogation. Thinking of – If we take the concept of a Kubernetes operating system, that can be updated in a different cadence, then the Kubernetes running on it – Who is Talos for? Who does it make – Could Joe as a neophyte or someone who doesn’t really know the space, will this make their life any easier or is there a special set of expertise that we would need to be fruitful with this? [00:21:06] TG: I think from our perspective, we hope that everybody who uses Kubernetes would find something useful in Talos, or a system like Talos. Number one, I think Talos would be a great way to get started on your laptop or workstation. I got some basic features to standup a small Kubernetes cluster there. That’s one place to start. As you move further into production, I think that a Kubernetes OS-based platform would be particularly useful in an environment where you might have multiple clusters spread across different geographical locations, spread across different teams. Maybe spread across different hosting environments. We’ve talked to a number of folks who have been running Kubernetess in production for a couple of years now, and these clusters kind of come up organically within a larger organization in different areas, doing different things for the business, managed by different teams. Now that a little bit of time has passed, these organizations are realizing that, “Hey, we’ve got kind of a Kubernetes sprawl problem. We have this team over here on Amazon managing and running Kubernetes one way. We have a separate team managing and running Kubernetes a different way over here on a different kind of platform.” I think anything that – anywhere where we can drive some consistency across the tooling, consistency across the base platforms would be useful. We also think that the minimal aspect of our system and some of the design decisions we’ve made around security and make it particularly useful in maybe a regulated environment. I think that that claim would hold true for any sort of special purpose operating system or minimal operating system designed for a specific task. [00:22:35] BL: Interesting. Just thinking about a concept of a Kubernetes operating system, what’s next? I’m not asking what’s next from Talos, but given all the opportunity all the time and all the knowledge. What should we be doing that we’re not doing right now? [00:22:49] AR: Specifically around operating systems or Kubernetes? [00:22:52] BL: Well, you know what? You can start with operating systems. I mean, you can go to Kubernetes and then we’ll see if our lists match. [00:22:57] AR: That’s a good question. Right off the bat, I’m going to say I don’t really know. I think this is new space. I think that we have a big task in front of us already in getting people to use these kinds of operating systems, hopefully not too big of a task. I’m hoping to see – Because you find these big companies, “Oh! We can’t do this. We can’t do that,” because getting a new OS is hard. I think we first of all need to win people over on just these even more minimal operating systems beyond what CoreOS has done. Personally, I don’t know if I could answer that question honestly without just owing something. [00:23:33] TG: I’ve got a thought here. One of the things that I’m really interested in beyond just Kubernetes and beyond just the operating system – what is computing going to look like in 5, 10, 15 years? I don’t know if Kubernetes is going to be around. I’m kind of a tech-cynic, right? I’ve seen a lot of fads in my career and things that pop up and are very popular for a couple of years and then sort of disappear. I don’t think Kubernetes is one of those. I think Kubernetes and the concepts and the layers of abstraction that Kubernetes has provided, all of that will remain useful and powerful in distant future whether or not it’s called Kubernetes or if it’s called something else, some new paradigm. But what I’m really interested in is seeing what can we do with this idea of an API-managed OS? If you look at the general purpose operating systems out there, some aspects of the system might expose an API. But for the most part, you’re still interacting and interfacing with this system like you were 30 years ago, 35, 40 years ago even. That’s fine. What works works, but everything else today has an API. Kubernetes has a powerful and extensible API and I think that your operating system should have something similar, something comparable, something that you can interact with using the same tools and the same processes and the same ideas that you can at the top of the stack and move some of those concepts down to the host OS level where we’re talking about today. [00:24:51] CC: This brings up a point that I’m so curious about, not only the idea of having a Kubernetes operating system, but any idea that is new that you were just talking about, Tim, is – So what works works. For example, every year or every couple of years, I am evaluating a new code editor or I am evaluating a new note taking app, or do-to-list app, those three things. I’m continuously finding something to reevaluate because what I have has never worked for me just the way I think. Actually, recently I found a couple of things that are really good. In any case, the thing is they just never worked for years. They’re very limited. They don’t match my thinking. But operating system, I would never – Well, I’m not an administrator also, but just like from having my own laptops forever, I’m not going to go out there. That’s not true either, but I was going to say I’m not going to go out there and try a new operating system to see if it’s offering that I already have, then it might be better for me. But that’s not true, because I have done that many times too. So never mind. But I think the idea of my question is stance, is how are you communicating to people out there that, “Hey, there is this new thing that maybe it’s working for you – Maybe you think it’s working for you, but you just don’t know that there is a new different way of doing.” When you do try to do that, how are people responding? I mean, of course, there are those cases where people just know they get it and they immediately resonate with them. But I’m talking about the people who like might benefit from this but they don’t quite grasp. How do you break through that barrier? [00:26:38] TG: Sure. Maybe the lay majority. [00:26:40] CC: Yeah, and how are people responding? [00:26:42] TG: Yeah. The great thing about Talos is that people understand pretty immediately what it is, how it works and why we’ve done it. The challenge I think for us and for anybody changing the way that operating systems work. Is it better enough than what I have today or what I had before? Is it worth the switch in costs? I think that switching cost is something that’s pretty well understood in the industry. People have gone through this process and they’ve moved from virtualization to containers, from Docker to Kubernetes, etc. They understand that process and they understand there’s a technical cost. There’s a people cost, etc. We have to show that value. I think that progress in our industry is incremental. Our industry is young. We’re not building bridges. We’re not at the level of like the internal combustion engine where the engineering is understood and we know how to build it and we know how to make it so that it doesn’t fall over and explode. Clearly, we’re not quite there yet in the broader world of computing. I think anywhere where we can show a little bit of incremental improvement where we can tackle one narrow slice of a problem and make it a little bit better and get to a point where computing is just a little bit safer and a little bit easier and a little bit faster. I think that’ll be a pretty compelling argument and there’s a lot of details involved and we have to talk about how do you get your applications from one operating system to the next? 15 years ago, it may have been a very big ask to ask someone to port their enterprise application from one operating system to another. They’re so inextricably linked. There’re a lot of connections between the OS and the applications, but today, we have these levels of abstraction. We have containers. We have the Kubernetes orchestration mechanisms and I think that switching cost is going down every release of Kubernetes and every step along the way as people change the way that applications are deployed that switching cost gets a little bit cheaper. It will be easier for us to prove that the value you gain by moving to a purpose-built operating system is greater than the switching cost. [00:28:41] CC: Very good points. [00:28:42] JS: I feel like there’s a lot of emphasis and focus on the move over. The first steps toward migrating to something new. There’s a lot of emphasis on bootstrapping a cluster. There’s a lot of emphasis on how do I get started. I’m part of a team called customer reliability engineering and we see operators running Kubernetes environments that are durable and have been in the field for many years. I think that there’s kind of a hidden cost in these day two operations where, like today, to effectively be a Kubernetes operator, you need to also have a great deal of understanding of Linux internal operating systems or Linux operating systems internals. These are abstractions on top, but sometimes those abstractions are leaky. So you need to be able to parse IP tables rules. You need to be able to understand how traffic gets routed, all of these aspects of it. I’m just wondering how do we kind of get folks shifted from this mindset of I’m going to start with something that’s general purpose and then I’m going to basically make it do what I want it to do by making all of these configuration changes and installing things on top of it to kind of make that not general purpose, but kind of specific focus on it and kind of get people to move back more fundamentally and think, “Well, what if we just started with something that is strictly for running workloads?” We don’t have to worry about installing a security suite on top of this or making this configuration change or hardening requirements or what have you. We’re fundamentally in a better place because we’ve started with something that’s arguably more secure. [00:30:21] BL: You know that – I mean, I’m old. I’m old now. I’m realizing this. When I started – Back in my day when we started with Linux, we went through this whole thing of Linux installers and there’re many iterations of Linux installers and it depended on, “Well, did you like what Red Hat was doing? Did you like what Debian project was doing? Oh! Did you like what Arch was doing? Oh! Did you want to do it yourself? Do you want to merge the world with gen 2?” Really, we come to this point now, no one ever talks about Linux installers anymore. You just put it on there. I think what I’m getting at is that we don’t actually know what we want. I mean we say that we want it to be simpler. We say we want it to be more secure, but we don’t know. Only time will tell, and I think it’s going to be a lot of chipping away at problems. Then people who are wanting to have the bold ideas are saying, “I’m going to out there and create a Kubernetes operating system.” In reality, it may work. We hope it works, or it may not work, but at least we gained just a little tiny bit more knowledge on how we want to run this thing. I think – And I’ll just say one more last thing, is that if you look at like Bell Labs, Bell Labs created the vacuum tube, and then like 20 years later, 20 or 30 years later, they created the transistor, twice actually. It took a long time to get the vacuum tube out because it kind of just worked and they just said, “We can’t throw it back. We just can’t throw that away.” Maybe we’re seeing a lot of that in Kubernetes. We’re holding on to some good things even though some greater things are going to come, but it might not be here this year or next year. It might be 18 months. It might be 24 months. We just got to really pay attention to that. [00:32:02] AR: Brian, when you said you were old, I was going to shake my head internally and then you brought up the vacuum tube and I’m like, “Okay.” [00:32:07] BL: I mean, I’m not that old. [00:32:09] JS: Yeah, I think that’s a good point, Brian. The thing I like to point out is the allegory of the cave. People have been living a certain way for so long they think that these shadows are real and they just know that way of life until some crazy comes along and says, “Hey, there’s a whole world out there,” and no one believes him. I think we just need to do – Like you said, we just need to do it. When you just create and make it happen and hopefully educate people in the process and just keep chipping away at it. Do the good work. [00:32:38] BL: That’s the important piece and that was the power of Bell Labs. You probably can tell. I just read a book about Bell Labs. I’m an expert now. But that was the power of Bell Labs. They didn’t just focus on making product for AT&T. They focused on changing the world, like literally. Who creates a transistor if you knew what one was? You just don’t create that. That’s like some really crazy stuff. I try to bring the parallel back to what we’re doing here. We can’t just create this perfect Kubernetes thing, because really, we don’t know what it is. I mean, we can be smart and say, “Well, it needs to be secure. It needs to be networking,” and all these stuff. But you know what? We don’t even have cgroups v2 support yet. We don’t even know where we are. Let’s figure out – Let’s just keep going down the path, but we will suss out these better patterns. [00:33:23] CC: Yeah, I like that. [00:33:24] BL: That’s it. It is incremental. Here’s the crazy part, and this is the real tough part. You know what? It is incremental, and reality says that not everybody can win. Don’t take your failures as a loss. Take them as, “well, maybe we shouldn’t have done that,” and keep on moving forward because there’s a lot of companies out there who got us at this point in tech that don’t exist anymore, but if they didn’t do what they did, we would not be here right now. It’s not [inaudible 00:33:52]. [00:33:53] CC: Why are we talking about failures? [00:33:55] BL: I’m sorry. It’s the ultimate success. [00:34:01] CC: Oh gosh! Let’s not end the show in such a downer. [00:34:04] BL: No. That’s a happy point though. Let me put the bow on the happy point and then I will stop talking. The thing is, is it’s not the glass is half empty. It is glass is half full. The path to success is littered with failure and it’s not a bad thing. It’s a good thing, because it’s good that we can continue making those failures because we know they lead to successes. That is actually a happy thing. [00:34:29] CC: I wonder if Andrew and Tim want to do a little bit of interrogating of us. I think that would be fair. [00:34:36] AR: I wouldn’t know what to interrogate you guys about. [00:34:40] CC: Well, we are coming up at the top of the hour. So it’s time to say goodbye. It was great having you, Andrew, and you, Tim, on the call. Jed, thank you for participating as well. I think it was very informative. With that, I will say, until next week. Bye everybody. [00:34:59] TG: Bye. Thanks for having us. [00:35:00] CC: My pleasure. [00:35:00] AR: Bye-bye. Thank you. [00:35:02] JS: Thank you. Bye. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:35:05.3] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Application Transformation with Chris Umbel and Shaun Anderson (Ep 19)

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 2, 2020 45:43

Today on the show we are very lucky to be joined by Chris Umbel and Shaun Anderson from Pivotal to talk about app transformation and modernization! Our guests help companies to update their systems and move into more up-to-date setups through the Swift methodology and our conversation focusses on this journey from legacy code to a more manageable solution. We lay the groundwork for the conversation, defining a few of the key terms and concerns that arise for typical clients and then Shaun and Chris share a bit about their approach to moving things forward. From there, we move into the Swift methodology and how it plays out on a project before considering the benefits of further modernization that can occur after the initial project. Chris and Shaun share their thoughts on measuring success, advantages of their system and how to avoid roll back towards legacy code. For all this and more, join us on The Podlets Podcast, today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Olive Power Key Points From This Episode: A quick introduction to our two guests and their roles at Pivotal. Differentiating between application organization and application transformation. Defining legacy and the important characteristics of technical debt and pain. The two-pronged approach at Pivotal; focusing on apps and the platform. The process of helping companies through app transformation and what it looks like. Overlap between the Java and .NET worlds; lessons to be applied to both. Breaking down the Swift methodology and how it is being used in app transformation. Incremental releases and slow modernization to avoid roll back to legacy systems. The advantages that the Swift methodology offers a new team. Possibilities of further modernization and transformation after a successful implementation. Measuring success in modernization projects in an organization using initial objectives. Quotes: “App transformation, to me, is the bucket of things that you need to do to move your product down the line.” — Shaun Anderson [0:04:54] “The pioneering teams set a lot of the guidelines for how the following teams can be doing their modernization work and it just keeps rolling down the track that way.” — Shaun Anderson [0:17:26] “Swift is a series of exercises that we use to go from a business problem into what we call a notional architecture for an application.” — Chris Umbel [0:24:16] “I think what's interesting about a lot of large organizations is that they've been so used to doing big bang releases in general. This goes from software to even process changes in their organizations.” — Chris Umbel [0:30:58] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Chris Umbel — https://github.com/chrisumbel Shaun Anderson — https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shaun-anderson Pivotal — https://pivotal.io/ VMware — https://www.vmware.com/ Michael Feathers — https://michaelfeathers.silvrback.com/ Steeltoe — https://steeltoe.io/ Alberto Brandolini — https://leanpub.com/u/ziobrando Swiftbird — https://www.swiftbird.us/ EventStorming — https://www.eventstorming.com/book/ Stephen Hawking — http://www.hawking.org.uk/ Istio — https://istio.io/ Stateful and Stateless Workload Episode — https://thepodlets.io/episodes/009-stateful-and-stateless/ Pivotal Presentation on Application Transformation: https://content.pivotal.io/slides/application-transformation-workshop Transcript: EPISODE 19 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.0] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets. Today, we have an exciting show. It's myself on, Carlisia Campos. We have our usual guest hosts, Duffie Cooley, Olive Power and Josh Rosso. We also have two special guests, Chris Umbel. Did I say that right, Chris? [0:01:03.3] CU: Close enough. [0:01:03.9] CC: I should have checked before. [0:01:05.7] CU: Umbel is good. [0:01:07.1] CC: Umbel. Yeah. I'm not even the native English speaker, so you have to bear with me. Shaun Anderson. Hi. [0:01:15.6] SA: You said my name perfectly. Thank you. [0:01:18.5] CC: Yours is more standard American. Let's see, the topic of today is application modernization. Oh, I just found out word I cannot pronounce. That's my non-pronounceable words list. Also known as application transformation, I think those two terms correctly used alternatively? The experts in the house should say something. [0:01:43.8] CU: Yeah. I don't know that I would necessarily say that they're interchangeable. They're used interchangeably, I think by the general population though. [0:01:53.0] CC: Okay. We're going to definitely dig into that, how it does it not make sense to use them interchangeably, because just by the meaning, I would think so, but I'm also not in that world day-to-day and that Shaun and Chris are. By the way, please give us a brief introduction the two of you. Why don't you go first, Chris? [0:02:14.1] CU: Sure. I am Chris Umbel. I believe it was probably actually pronounced Umbel in Germany, but I go with Umbel. My title this week is the – I think .NET App Transformation Journey Lead. Even though I focus on .NET modernization, it doesn't end there. Touch a little bit of everything with Pivotal. [0:02:34.2] SA: I'm Shaun Anderson and I share the same title of the week as Chris, except for where you say .NET, I would say Java. In general, we play the same role and have slightly different focuses, but there's a lot of overlap. [0:02:48.5] CU: We get along, despite the .NET and Java thing. [0:02:50.9] SA: Usually. [0:02:51.8] CC: You both are coming from Pivotal, yeah? As most people should know, but I'm sure now everybody knows, Pivotal was just recently as of these date, which is what we are? End of January. This episode is going to be a while to release, but Pivotal was just acquired by VMware. Here we are. [0:03:10.2] SA: It's good to be here. [0:03:11.4] CC: All right. Somebody, one of you, may be let's say Chris, because you've brought this up, how this application organization differs from application transformation? Because I think we need to lay the ground and lay the definitions before we can go off and talk about things and sound experts and make sure that everybody can follow us. [0:03:33.9] CU: Sure. I think you might even get different definitions, even from within our own practice. I'll at least lay it out as I see it. I think it's probably consistent with how Shaun's going to see it as well, but it's what we tell customers anyway. At the end of the day, there are – app transformation is the larger [inaudible] bucket. That's going to include, say just the re-hosting of applications, taking applications from point A to some new point B, without necessarily improving the state of the application itself. We'd say that that's not necessarily an exercise in paying down technical debt, it's just making some change to an application or its environment. Then on the modernization side, that's when things start to get potentially a little more architectural. That's when the focus becomes paying down technical debt and really improving the application itself, usually from an architectural point of view and things start to look maybe a little bit more like rewrites at that point. [0:04:31.8] DC: Would you say that the transformation is more in-line with re-platforming, those of you that might think about it? [0:04:36.8] CU: We'd say that app transformation might include re-platforming and also the modernization. What do you think of that, Shaun? [0:04:43.0] SA: I would say transformation is not just the re-platforming, re-hosting and modernization, but also the practice to figure out which should happen as well. There's a little bit more meta in there. Typically, app transformation to me is the bucket of things that you need to do to move your product down the line. [0:05:04.2] CC: Very cool. I have two questions before we start really digging to the show, is still to lay the ground for everyone. My next question will be are we talking about modernizing and transforming apps, so they go to the clouds? Or is there a certain cut-off that we start thinking, “Oh, we need to – things get done differently for them to be called native.” Is there a differentiation, or is this one is the same as the other, like the process will be the same either way? [0:05:38.6] CU: Yeah, there's definitely a distinction. The re-platforming bucket, that re-hosting bucket of things is where your target state, at least for us coming out of Pivotal, we had definitely a product focus, where we're probably only going to be doing work if it intersects with our product, right? We're going to be doing both re-platforming targeted, say typically at a cloud environment, usually Cloud Foundry or something to that effect. Then modernization, while we're usually doing that with customers who have been running our platform, there's nothing to say that you necessarily need a cloud, or any cloud to do modernization. We tend to based on who we work for, but you could say that those disciplines and practices really are agnostic to where things run. [0:06:26.7] CC: Sorry, I was muted. I wanted to ask Shaun if you wanted to add to that. Do you have the same view? [0:06:33.1] SA: Yeah. I have the same view. I think part of what makes our process unique that way is we're not necessarily trying to target a platform for deployment, when we're going through the modernization part anyway. We're really looking at how can we design this application to be the best application it can be. It just so happens that that tends to be more 12-factor compliant that is very cloud compatible, but it's not necessarily the way that we start trying to aim for a particular platform. [0:07:02.8] CC: All right. If everybody allows me, after this next question, I'll let other hosts speak too. Sorry for monopolizing, but I'm so excited about this topic. Again, in the spirit of understanding what we're talking about, what do you define as legacy? Because that's what we're talking about, right? We’re definitely talking about a move up, move forwards. We're not talking about regression and we're not talking about scaling down. We're talking about moving up to a modern technology stack. That means, that implies we're talking about something that's legacy. What is legacy? Is it contextual? Do we have a hard definition? Is there a best practice to follow? Is there something public people can look at? Okay, if my app, or system fits this recipe then it’s considered legacy, like a diagnosis that has a consensus. [0:07:58.0] CU: I can certainly tell you how you can't necessarily define legacy. One of the ways is by the year that it was written. You can certainly say that there are certainly shops who are writing legacy code today. They're still writing legacy code. As soon as they're done with a project, it's instantly legacy. There's people that are trying to define, like another Michael Feathers definition, which is I think any application that doesn't have tests, I don't know that that fits what – our practice necessarily sees legacy as. Basically, anything that's occurred a significant amount of technical debt, regardless of when the application was written or conceived fits into that legacy bucket. Really, our work isn't necessarily as concerned about whether something's legacy or not as much as is there pain that we can solve with our practice? Like I said, we've modernized things that were in for all intents and purposes, quite modern in terms of the year they were written. [0:08:53.3] SA: Yeah. I would double down on the pain. Legacy to us often is something that was written as a prototype a year ago. Now it's ready to prove itself. It's going to be scaled up, but it wasn't built with scale in mind, or something like that. Even though it may be the latest technology, it just wasn't built for the load, for example. Sometimes legacy can be – the pain is we have applications on a mainframe and we can't find Cobol developers and we're leasing a giant mainframe and it's costing a lot of money, right? There's different flavors of pain. It also could be something as simple as a data center move. Something like that, where we've got all of our applications running on Iron and we need to go to a virtual data center somewhere, whether it's cloud or on-prem. Each one of those to us is legacy. It's all about the pain. [0:09:47.4] CU: I think is miserable as that might sound, that's really where it starts and is listening to that pain and hearing directly from customers what that pain is. Sounds terrible when you think about it that you're always in search of pain, but that isn't indeed what we do and try to alleviate that in some way. That pain is what dictates the solution that you come up with, because there are certain kinds of pain that aren't going to be solved with say, modernization approach, a more a platformed approach even. You have to listen and make sure that you're applying the right medicine to the right pain. [0:10:24.7] OP: Seems like an interesting thing bringing what you said, Chris, and then what you said earlier, Shaun. Shaun you had mentioned the target platform doesn't necessarily matter, at least upfront. Then Chris, you had implied bringing the right thing in to solve the pain, or to help remedy the pain to some degree. I think what's interesting may be about the perspectives for those on this call and you too is a lot of times our entry points are a lot more focused with infrastructure and platform teams, where they have these objectives to solve, like cost and ability to scale and so on and so forth. It seems like your entry point, at least historically is maybe a little bit more focused on finding pain points on more of the app side of the house. I'm wondering if that's a fair assessment, or if you could speak to how you find opportunities and what you're really targeting. [0:11:10.6] SA: I would say that's a fair assessment from the perspective of our services team. We're mainly app-focused, but it's almost there's a two-pronged approach, where there's platform pain and application pain. What we've seen is often solving one without the other is not a great solution, right? I think that's where it's challenging, because there's so much to know, right? It's hard to find one team or one person who can point out the pain on both sides. It just depends on often, how the customer approaches us. If they are saying something like, “We’re a credit card company and we're getting our butts kicked by this other company, because they can do biometrics and we can't yet, because of the limitations of our application.” Then we would approach it from the app-first perspective. If it's another pain point, where our operations, day two operations is really suffering, we can't scale, where we have issues that the platform is really good at solving, then we may start there. It always tends to merge together in the end. [0:12:16.4] CU: You might be surprised how much variety there is in terms of the drivers for people coming to us. There are a lot of cases where the work came to us by way of the platform work that we've done. It started with our sister team who focuses on the platform side of things. They solve the infrastructure problems ahead of us and then we close things out on the application side. We if our account teams and our organization is really listening to each individual customer that you'll find that there – that the pain is drastically different, right? There are some cases where the driver is cost and that's an easy one to understand. There are also drivers that are usually like a date, such as this data center goes dark on this date and I have to do something about it. If I'm not out of that data center, then my apps no longer run. The solution to that is very different than the solution you would have to, "Look, my application is difficult for me to maintain. It takes me forever to ship features. Help me with that." There's two very different solutions to those problems, but each of which are things that come our way. It's just that former probably comes in by way of our platform team. [0:13:31.1] DC: Yeah, that’s an interesting space to operate in in the application transformation and stuff. I've seen entities within some of the larger companies that represent this field as well. Sometimes that's called production engineering or there are a few other examples of this that I'm aware of. I'm curious how you see that happening within larger companies. Do you find that there is a particular size entity that is actually striving to do this work with the tools that they have internally, or do you find that typically, most companies are just need something like an application transformation so you can come in and help them figure out this part of it out? [0:14:09.9] SA: We've seen a wide variety, I think. One of them is maybe a company really has a commitment to get to the cloud and they get a platform and then they start putting some simple apps up, just to learn how to do it. Then they get stuck with, “Okay. Now how do we with trust get some workloads that are running our business on it?” They will often bring us in at that point, because they haven't done it before. Experimenting with something that valuable to them is — usually means that they slow down. There's other times where we've come in to modernize applications, whether it's a particular business unit for example, that may have been trying to get off the mainframe for the last two years. They’re smart people, but they get stuck again, because they haven't figured out how to do it. What often happens and Chris can talk about some examples of this is once we help them figure out how to modernize, or the recipes to follow to start getting their systems systematically on to the platform and modernize, that they tend to like forming a competency area around it, where they'll start to staff it with the people who are really interested and they take over where we started from. [0:15:27.9] CU: There might be a little bit of bias to that response, in that typically, in order to even get in the door with us, you're probably a Fortune 100, or at least a 500, or government, or something to that effect. We're going to be seeing people that one, have a mainframe to begin with. Two, would have say, capacity to fund say a dedicated transformation team, or to build a unit around that. You could say that the smaller an organization gets, maybe the easier it is to just have the entire organization just write software the modern way to begin with. At least at the large side, we do tend to see people try to build a – they'll use different names for it. Try to have a dedicated center of excellence or practice around modernization. Our hope is to help them build that and hopefully, put them in a position that that can eventually disappear, because eventually, you should no longer need that as a separate discipline. [0:16:26.0] JR: I think that's an interesting point. For me, I argue that you do need it going forward, because of the cognitive overhead between understanding how your application is going to thrive on today's complex infrastructure models and understanding how to write code that works. I think that one person that has all of that in their head all the time is a little too much, a little too far to go sometimes. [0:16:52.0] CU: That's probably true. When you consider the size the portfolios and the size of the backlog for modernization that people have, I mean, people are going to be busy on that for a very long time anyway. It's either — even if it is finite, it still has a very long life span at a minimum. [0:17:10.7] SA: At a certain point, it becomes like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. As soon as you finish, you have to start again, because of technology changes, or business needs and that thing. It's probably a very dynamic organization, but there's a lot of overlap. The pioneering teams set a lot of the guidelines for how the following teams can be doing their modernization work and it just keeps rolling down the track that way. It may be that people are busy modernizing applications off of WebLogic, or WebSphere, and it takes a two years or more to get that completed for this enterprise. It was 20, 50 different projects. To them, it was brand-new each time, which is cool actually to come into that. [0:17:56.3] JR: I'm curious, I definitely love hear it from Olive. I have one more question before I pass it out and I think we’d love to hear your thoughts on all of this. The question I have is when you're going through your day-to-day working on .NET and Java applications and helping people figure out how to go about modernizing them, what we've talked about so far is that represents some of the deeper architectural issues and stuff. You've already mentioned 12 factor after and being able to move, or thinking about the way that you frame the application as far as inputs of those things that it takes to configure, or to think with the lifecycle of those things. Are there some other common patterns that you see across the two practices, Java and .NET, that you think are just concrete examples of stuff that people should take away maybe from this episode, that they could look at their app – and they’re trying to get ahead of the game a little bit? [0:18:46.3] SA: I would say a big part of the commonality that Chris and I both work on a lot is we have a methodology called the SWIFT methodology that we use to help discover how the applications really want to behave, define a notional architecture that is again, agnostic of the implementation details. We’ll often come in with a the same process and I don't need to be a .NET expert and a .NET shop to figure out how the system really wants to be designed, how you want to break things into microservices and then the implementation becomes where those details are. Chris and I both collaborate on a lot of that work. It makes you feel a little bit better about the output when you know that the technology isn't as important. You get to actually pick which technology fits the solution best, as opposed to starting with the technology and letting a solution form around it, if that makes sense. [0:19:42.4] CU: Yeah. I'd say that interesting thing is just how difficult it is while we're going through the SWIFT process with customers, to get them to not get terribly attached to the nouns of the technology and the solution. They've usually gone in where it's not just a matter of the language, but they have something picked in their head already for data storage, for messaging, etc., and they're deeply attached to some of these decisions, deeply and emotionally attached to them. Fundamentally, when we're designing a notional architecture as we call it, really you should be making decisions on what nouns you're going to pick based on that architecture to use the tools that fit that. That's generally a bit of a process the customers have to go through. It's difficult for them to do that, because the more technical their stakeholders tend to be, often the more attached they are to the individual technology choices and breaking that is the principal role for us. [0:20:37.4] OP: Is there any help, or any investment, or any coordination with those vendors, or the purveyors of the technologies that perhaps legacy applications are, or indeed the platforms they're running on, is there any help on that side from those vendors to help with application transformation, or making those applications better? Or do organizations have to rely on a completely independent, so the team like you guys to come in and help them with that? Do you understand my point? Is there any internal – like you mentioned WebLogic, WebSphere, do the purveyors of those platforms try and drive the transformation from within there? Or is it organizations who are running those apps have to rely on independent companies like you, or like us to help them with that? [0:21:26.2] SA: I think some of it depends on what the goal of the modernization is. If it's something like, we no longer want to pay Oracle licensing fees, then of course, obviously they – WebLogic teams aren't going to be happy to help. That's not always the case. Sometimes it's a case where we may have a lot of WebLogic. It's working fine, but we just don't like where it's deployed and we'd like to containerize it, move it to Kubernetes or something like that. In that case, they're more willing to help. At least in my experience, I've found that the technology vendors are rightfully focused just on upgrading things from their perspective and they want to own the world, right? WebLogic will say, “Hey, we can do everything. We have clustering. We have messaging. We've got good access to data stores.” It's hard to find a technology vendor that has that broader vision, or the discipline to not try to fit their solutions into the problem, when maybe they're not the best fit. [0:22:30.8] CU: I think it's a broad generalization, but specifically on the Java side it seems that at least with app server vendors, the status quo is usually serving them quite well. Quite often, we’re adversary – a bit of an adversarial relationship with them on occasion. I could certainly say that within the .NET space, we've worked a relatively collaboratively with Microsoft on things like Steeltoe, which is a I wouldn't say it's a springboot analog, but at least a microservice library that helps people achieve 12-factor cloud nativeness. That's something where I guess Microsoft represents both the legacy side, but also the future side and were part of a solution together there. [0:23:19.4] SA: Actually, that's a good point because the other way that we're seeing vendors be involved is in creating operators on Kubernetes side, or Cloud Foundry tiles, something that makes it easy for their system to still be used in the new world. That's definitely helpful as well. [0:23:38.1] CC: Yeah, that's interesting. [0:23:39.7] JR: Recently, myself me people on my team went through a training from both Shaun and Chris, interestingly enough in Colorado about this thing called the SWIFT methodology. I know it's a really important methodology to how you approach some of the application transformation-like engagements. Could you two give us a high-level overview of what that methodology is? [0:24:02.3] SA: I want to hear Chris go through it, since I always answer that question first. [0:24:09.0] CU: Sure. I figured since you were the inventor, you might want to go with it Shaun, but I'll give it a stab anyway. Swift is a series of exercises that we use to go from a business problem into what we call a notional architecture for an application. The one thing that you'll hear Shaun say all the time that I think is pretty apt, which is we're trying to understand how the application wants to behave. This is a very analog process, especially at the beginning. It's one where we get people who can speak about the business problem behind an application and the business processes behind an application. We get them into a room, a relatively large room typically with a bunch of wall space and we go through a series of exercises with them, where we tease that business process apart. We start with a relatively lightweight version of Alberto Brandolini’s event storing method, where we map out with the subject matter experts, what all of the business events that occur in a system are. That is a non-technical exercise, a completely non-technical exercise. As a matter of fact, all of this uses sticky notes and arts and crafts. After we've gone through that process, we transition into Boris diagram, which is an exercise of Shaun's design that we take the domains that we've, or at least service candidates that we've extrapolated from that event storming and start to draw out a notional architecture. Like an 80% idea of what we think the architecture is going to look like. We're going to do this for slices of – thin slices of that business problem. At that point, it starts to become something that a software developer might be interested in. We have an exercise called Snappy that generally occurs concurrently, which translates that message flow, Boris diagram thing into something that's at least a little bit closer to what a developer could act upon. Again, these are sticky note and analog exercises that generally go on for about a week or so, things that we do interactively with customers to try to get a purely non-technical way, at least at first, so that we can understand that problem and tell you what an architecture is that you can then act on. We try to position this as a customer. You already have all of the answers here. What we're going to do as facilitators of these is try to pull those out of your head. You just don't know how to get to the truth, but you already know that truth and we're going to design this architecture together. How did I do, Shaun? [0:26:44.7] SA: I couldn't have said it better myself. I would say one of the interest things about this process is the reason why it was developed the way it was is because in the world of technology and especially engineers, I definitely seen that you have two modes of thought when you come from the business world to the to the technical world. Often, engineers will approach a problem in a very different way and a very focused, blindered way than business folks. Ultimately, what we try to think of is that the purpose for the software is to enable the business to run well. In order to do that, you really need to understand at least at a high-level, what the heck is the business doing? Surprisingly and almost consistently, the engineering team doing the work is separated from the business team enough that it's like playing the telephone game, right? Where the business folks say, “Well, I told them to do this.” The technical team is like, “Oh, awesome. Well then, we're going to use all this amazing technology and build something that really doesn't support you.” This process really brings everybody together to discover how the system really wants to behave. Also as a side effect, you get everybody agreeing that yes, that is the way it's supposed to be. It's exciting to see teams come together that actually never even work together. You see the light bulbs go on and say, “Oh, that's why you do that.” The end result is in a week, we can go from nobody really knows each other, or quite understands the system as a whole, to we have a backlog of work that we can prioritize based on the learnings that we have, and feel pretty comfortable that the end result is going to be pretty close to how we want to get there. Then the biggest challenge is defining how do we get from point A to point B. That's part of that layering of the Swift method is knowing when to ask those questions. [0:28:43.0] JR: A micro follow-up and then I'll keep my mouth shut for a little bit. Is there a place that people could go online to read about this methodology, or just get some ideas of what you just described? [0:28:52.7] SA: Yeah. You can go to swiftbird.us. That has a high-level overview of more the public facing of how the methodology works. Then there's also internal resources that are constantly being developed as well. That's where I would start. [0:29:10.9] CC: That sounds really neat. As always, we are going to have links on the show notes for all of this. I checked out the website for the EventStorming book. There is a resources page there and has a list of a bunch of presentations. Sounds very interesting. I wanted to ask Chris and Shaun, have you ever seen, or heard of a case where a company went through the transformation, or modernization process and then they roll back to their legacy system for any reason? [0:29:49.2] SA: That's actually a really good question. It implies that often, the way people think about modernization would be more of a big bang approach, right? Where at a certain point in time, we switch to the new system. If it doesn't work, then we roll back. Part of what we try to do is have incremental releases, where we're actually putting small slices into production where you're not rolling back a whole – from modern back to legacy. It's more of you have a week's worth of work that's going into production that's for one of the thin slices, like Chris mentioned. If that doesn't work where there's something that is unexpected about it, then you're rolling back just a small chunk. You're not really jumping off a cliff for modernization. You're really taking baby steps. If it's a two step forward and one step back, you're still making a lot of really good progress. You're also gaining confidence as you go that in the end in two years, you're going to have a completely shiny new modern system and you're comfortable with it, because you're getting there an inch of the time, as opposed to taking a big leap. [0:30:58.8] CU: I think what's interesting about a lot of large organizations is that they've been so used to doing big bang releases in general. This goes from software to even process changes in their organizations. They’ve become so used to that that it often doesn't even cross their mind that it's possible to do something incrementally. We really do often times have to get spend time getting buy-in from them on that approach. You'd be surprised that even in industries that you’d think would be fantastic with managing risk, when you look at how they actually deal with deployment of software and the rolling out of software, they’re oftentimes taking approaches that maximize their risk. There's no way to make something riskier by doing a big bang. Yeah, as Shaun mentioned, the specifics of the swift are to find a way, so that you can understand where and get a roadmap for how to carve out incremental slices, so that you can strangle a large monolithic system slowly over time. That's something that's pretty powerful. Once someone gets bought in on that, they absolutely see the value, because they're minimizing risk. They're making small changes. They're easy to roll back one at a time. You might see people who would stop somewhere along the way, and we wouldn't necessarily say that that's a problem, right? Just like not every app needs to be modernized, maybe there's portions of systems that could stay where they are. Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't necessarily say that it is. Maybe that's the way that – the best way for that organization. [0:32:35.9] DC: We've bumped into this idea now a couple of different times and I think that both Chris and Shaun have brought this up. It's a little prelude to a show that we are planning on doing. One of the operable quotes from that show is the greatest enemy of knowledge is not the ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. It's a quote by Stephen Hawking. It speaks exactly to that, right? When you come to a problem with a solution in your mind that is frequently difficult to understand the problem on its merit, right? It’s really interesting seeing that crop up again in this show. [0:33:08.6] CU: I think even oftentimes, the advantage of a very discovery-oriented method, such as Swift is that it allows you to start from scratch with a problem set with people maybe that you aren't familiar with and don't have some of that baggage and can ask the dumb questions to get to some of the real answers. It's another phrase that I know Shaun likes to use is that our roles is facilitator to this method are to ask dumb questions. I mean, you just can't put enough value on that, right? The only way that you're going to break that established thinking is by asking questions at the root. [0:33:43.7] OP: One question, actually there was something recently that happened in the Kubernetes community, which I thought was pretty interesting and I'd like to get your thoughts on it, which is that Istio, which is a project that operates as a service mesh, I’m sure you all are familiar with it, has recently decided to unmodernize itself in a way. It was originally developed as a set of microservices. They have had no end of difficulty in getting in optimizing the different interactions between those services and the nodes. Then recently, they decided this might be a good example of when to monolith, versus when to microservice. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that, or if you have familiarity with it. [0:34:23.0] CU: What's actually quite – I'm not going to necessarily speak too much to this. Time will tell as to if the monolithing that they're doing at the moment is appropriate or not. Quite often, the starting point for us isn't necessarily a monolith. What it is is a proposed architecture coming from a customer that they're proud of, that this is my microservice design. You'll see a simple system with maybe hundreds of nano-services. The surprise that they have is that the recommendation from us coming out of our Swift sessions is that actually, you're overthinking this. We're going to take that idea that you have any way and maybe shrink that down and to save tens of services, or just a handful of services. I think one of the mistakes that people make within enterprises, or on microservices at the moment is to say, “Well, that's not a microcservice. It’s too big.” Well, how big or how small dictates a microservice, right? Oftentimes, we at least conceptually are taking and combining services based on the customers architecture very common. [0:35:28.3] SA: Monoliths aren't necessarily bad. I mean, people use them almost as a pejorative, “Oh, you have a monolith.” In our world it's like, well monoliths are bad when they're bad. If they're not bad, then that's great. The corollary to that is micro-servicing for the sake of micro-servicing isn't necessarily a good thing either. When we go through the Boris exercise, really what we're doing is we're showing how domain-based, or capabilities relate to each other. That happens to map really well in our opinion to first, cut microservices, right? You may have an order service, or a customer service that manages some of that. Just because we map capabilities and how they relate to each other, it doesn't mean the implementation can't even be as a single monolith, but componentized inside it, right? That's part of what we try really hard to do is avoid the religion of monolith versus microservices, or even having to spend a lot of time trying to define what a microservice is to you. It's really more of well, a system wants to behave this way. Now, surprise, you just did domain-driven design and mapped out some good 12-factor compliant microservices should you choose to build it that way, but there's other constraints that always apply at that point. [0:36:47.1] OP: Is there more traction in organizations implementing this methodology on a net new business, rather than current running businesses or applications? Is there are situations more so that you have seen where a new project, or a new functionality within a business starts to drive and implement this methodology and then it creeps through the other lines of business within the organization, because that first one was successful? [0:37:14.8] CU: I'd say that based on the nature of who our customers are as an app transformation practice, based on who those customers are and what their problems are, we're generally used to having a starting point of a process, or software that exists already. There's nothing at all to mandate that it has to be that way. As a matter of fact, with folks from our labs organization, we've used these methods in what you could probably call greener fields. At the end of the day when you have a process, or even a candidate process, something that doesn't exist yet, as long as you can get those ideas onto sticky notes and onto a wall, this is a very valid way of getting – turning ideas into an architecture and an architecture into software. [0:37:59.4] SA: We've seen that happen in practice a couple times, where maybe a piece of the methodology was used, like EventStorming just to get a feel for how the business wants to behave. Then to rapidly try something out in maybe more of a evolutionary architecture approach, MVP approach to let's just build something from a user perspective just to solve this problem and then try it out. If it starts to catch hold, then iterate back and now drill into it a little bit more and say, “All right. Now we know this is going to work.” We're modernizing something that may be two weeks old just because hooray, we proved it's valuable. We didn't necessarily have to spend as much upfront time on designing that as we would in this system that's already proven itself to be of business value. [0:38:49.2] OP: This might be a bit of a broad question, but what defines success of projects like this? I mean, we mentioned earlier about cost and maybe some of the drivers are to move off certain mainframes and things like that. If you're undergoing an application transformation, it seems to me like it's an ongoing thing. How do enterprises try to evaluate that return on investment? How does it relate to success criteria? I mean, faster release times, etc., potentially might be one, but how was that typically evaluated and somebody internally saying, “Look, we are running a successful project.” [0:39:24.4] SA: I think part of what we tried to do upfront is identify what the objectives are for a particular engagement. Often, those objectives start out with one thing, right? It's too costly to keep paying IBM or Oracle for WebLogic, or WebSphere. As we go through and talk through what types of things that we can solve, those objectives get added to, right? It may be the first thing, our primary objective is we need to start moving workloads off of the mainframe, or workloads off of WebLogic, or WebSphere, or something like that. There's other objectives that are part of this too, which can include things as interesting as developer happiness, right? They have a large team of a 150 developers that are really just getting sick of doing the same old thing and having new technology. That's actually a success criteria maybe down the road a little bit, but it's more of a nice to have. In a long-winded answer of saying, when we start these and when we incept these projects, we usually start out with let's talk through what our objectives are and how we measure success, those key results for those objectives. As we're iterating through, we keep measuring ourselves against those. Sometimes the objectives change over time, which is fine because you learn more as you're going through it. Part of that incremental iterative process is measuring yourself along the way, as opposed to waiting until the end. [0:40:52.0] CC: Yeah, makes sense. I guess these projects are as you say, are continuous and constantly self-adjusting and self-analyzing to re-evaluate success criteria to go along. Yeah, so that's interesting. [0:41:05.1] SA: One other interesting note though that personally we like to measure ourselves when we see one project is moving along and if the customers start to form other projects that are similar, then we know, “Okay, great. It's taking hold.” Now other teams are starting to do the same thing. We've become the cool kids and people want to be like us. The only reason it happens for that is when you're able to show success, right? Then other teams want to be able to replicate that. [0:41:32.9] CU: The customers OKRs, oftentimes they can be a little bit easier to understand. Sometimes they're not. Typically, they involve time or money, where I'm trying to take release times from X to Y, or decrease my spend on X to Y. The way that we I think measure ourselves as a team is around how clean do we leave the campsite when we're done. We want the customers to be able to run with this and to continue to do this work and to be experts. As much as we'd love to take money from someone forever, we have a lot of people to help, right? Our goal is to help to build that practice and center of excellence and expertise within an organization, so that as their goals or ideas change, they have a team to help them with that, so we can ride off into the sunset and go help other customers. [0:42:21.1] CC: We are coming up to the end of the episode, unfortunately, because this has been such a great conversation. It turned out to be a more of an interview style, which was great. It was great getting the chance to pick your brains, Chris and Shaun. Going along with the interview format, I like to ask you, is there any question that wasn't asked, but you wish was asked? The intent here is to illuminates what this process for us and for people who are listening, especially people who they might be in pain, but they might be thinking this is just normal. [0:42:58.4] CU: That's an interesting one. I guess to some degree, that pain is unfortunately normal. That's just unfortunate. Our role is to help solve that. I think the complacency is the absolute worst thing in an organization. If there is pain, rather than saying that the solution won't work here, let’s start to talk about solutions to that. We've seen customers of all shapes and sizes. No matter how large, or cumbersome they might be, we've seen a lot of big organizations make great progress. If your organization's in pain, you can use them as an example. There is light at the end of the tunnel. [0:43:34.3] SA: It's usually not a train. [0:43:35.8] CU: Right. Usually not. [0:43:39.2] SA: Other than that, I think you asked all the questions that we always try to convey to customers of how we do things, what is modernization. There's probably a little bit about re-platforming, doing the bare minimum to get something onto to the cloud. We didn't talk a lot about that, but it's a little bit less meta, anyway. It's more technical and more recipe-driven as you discover what the workload looks like. It's more about, is it something we can easily do a CF push, or just create a container and move it up to the cloud with minimal changes? There's not conceptually not a lot of complexity. Implementation-wise, there's still a lot of challenges there too. They're not as fun to talk about for me anyway. [0:44:27.7] CC: Maybe that's a good excuse to have some of our colleagues back on here with you. [0:44:30.7] SA: Absolutely. [0:44:32.0] DC: Yeah, in a previous episode we talked about persistence and state of those sorts of things and how they relate to your applications and how when you're thinking about re-platforming and even just where you're planning on putting those applications. For us, that question comes up quite a lot. That's almost zero trying to figure out the state model and those sort of things. [0:44:48.3] CC: That episode was named States in Stateless Apps, I think. We are at the end, unfortunately. It was so great having you both here. Thank you Duffie, Shaun, Chris and I'm going by the order I'm seeing people on my video. Josh and Olive. Until next time. Make sure please to let us know your feedback. Subscribe. Give us a thumbs up. Give us a like. You know the drill. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Bye, everybody. [0:45:16.0] JR: Bye all. [0:45:16.5] CU: Bye. [END OF EPISODE] [0:45:17.8] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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EP 2.3 How to build trust in nonprofit leadership with Nature Conservancy of Canada CEO John Lounds

LeaderLab

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2020 21:16

John Lounds reflects on how he achieved so much success. Good mentorship, building trust and building culture are all a part of the equation. Listen and Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Stitcher | Spotify More about John Lounds: John Joined the Nature Conservancy of Canada in 1997. Under John’s Leadership, NCC has grown from an annual budget of $8 million to approximately $80 million in 2017. NCC and its partners have helped to protect over 14 million hectares of ecologically significant land since 1962. John was previously a governor of the University of Waterloo, as well as a member of the Dean’s Advisory Committee at the Faculty of Environment at the University of Waterloo. He has served as a director of the George Cedric Metcalf Charitable Foundation, the Smart Prosperity Initiative, the International Land Conservation Network and on the Canadian councils of the North American Bird Conservation Initiative and the North American Wetlands Conservation Act. Links to Additional Resources: natureconservancy.ca Get involved with the Nature Conservancy of Canada Memorable Quote: “Nobody can do everything. If you can build partnerships, if you can build a team with those skills and abilities, the team can make it happen – but no one should think that they are the only person able to do all of this.” Full Episode Transcript: TINEKE KEESMAAT: This leader has helped protect over 35 million acres of ecologically-significant land across Canada. ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Leader Lab, where we talk to experts about how leaders can excel in a modern world. Helping leaders for over 20 years. Your host, Tineke Keesmaat. TINEKE KEESMAAT: John Lounds is the president and CEO of Nature Conservancy of Canada. He is passionate about nature, conservation, and leadership. Under his guidance, the Nature Conservancy has grown exponentially over the past two years, from a budget of $8 million to $80 million. On today's Leader Lab, he'll share some of the leadership lessons he learned along the way. John, welcome to the Leader Lab. JOHN LOUNDS: Thank you. TINEKE KEESMAAT: It's great to have you here, and I'm very curious if you could start by telling us a little bit about the path that brought you to the Nature Conservancy. JOHN LOUNDS: Well, I never thought I'd start off working in a nonprofit charity. Many years ago in high school, I was-- studying computer science was one of the big areas I was going to go into, but I had a geography teacher who really inspired me and wanted me to think about how the world could be changed as a result of how you think about organizing on the landscape. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And what's kept you in nonprofit for so long, and specifically, in the environmental space? JOHN LOUNDS: Well, the environmental space is my passion. I think a big part of working in a nonprofit charity is that you need to have the passion for the work. If you don't feel it, believe it, think it, dream it, live it, the people that you're talking to about the work you're doing will not hear you, they won't understand why it's important or what the impact can be. This field is my field, that's where I want to be. I also wanted to work in an organization that worked right across the country. I'm a proud Canadian and believe that we have one of the best countries in the world, and I just want to make sure that that's what I'm doing as well. So coupling the nonprofit work with my interest in the environmental world has been great for me. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's amazing. And 20 years ago, environmental issues were not as talked about as they are now. So what has been the big shift in leading an organization? May not have been on the first page every day to now where it's everywhere you look. JOHN LOUNDS: I think that's true, and they weren't-- these issues weren't being discussed so much many years ago, but there were some big problems that came to the surface while I was growing up, and folks may not remember the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland catching on fire in Lake Erie, other events such as that, those-- a river catching on fire? Like, what is going on here? Those kind of events really affected my thinking then. I would say today with the awareness that people have and concern about-- whether it be climate change, biodiversity conservation, et cetera, we're seeing way more interest in the work we're doing, and I think that's somewhat contributed to the growth of the work of the Nature Conservancy of Canada, because there's more people who are understanding the importance of this work, and we've been welcoming them to the fold. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's amazing. And over the last two decades that you've been leading the conservancy, you have had a dramatic impact. So you raised the budget from $8 million to $80 million, you've protected over 35 million acres of Canadian land. How did you create such an ambitious vision? JOHN LOUNDS: Well, it wasn't just me. I'd say one of my first lessons was the importance of finding and surrounding myself with really great people who would always challenge me and the team to think bigger. If you can find them, if you can listen to what they have to say, and know in your heart that you can actually accomplish more than you think you can, that combination can lead to some incredible things. So I remember one of my past board members who spoke about what is the conservation equivalent of a nation-building exercise? Like really thinking beyond we're not just going to solve this property problem or we're just going to solve this little issue. What is a big way of thinking about it? I also had some mentors. We had a session where we were talking about how much money we could possibly raise for one of our campaigns, and this was-- we had thought we would set a goal of $300 million thinking that was a very big number over several years. And this gentleman came to the front of the room to speak and he said, $300 million? That's not nearly enough. It needs to be $500 million. And the $500 million was actually what we then went away to do as a result of just that person pushing the boundaries of my thinking. I would never have thought of that. They push, they ask the tough questions, that's how the people that you surround yourself with can help you. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So John, that's amazing to have different perspectives pushing and challenging you and helping you to imagine what is possible. I can imagine that time that that might create some tension if your board is saying $500 million and your team is saying $200 million. How do you manage that tension? JOHN LOUNDS: Well I actually find that tension to be important. It's that space between the staff who are obviously implementing the work that needs to be done and the board's role pushing and asking tough questions to come to a place where we can all agree on what the right-- or the best way forward would be. And I'm a firm believer that if you have the staff being stronger than the board or the board being stronger than the staff, that you end up in a space that isn't as productive, doesn't create as much energy, and doesn't challenge-- whether challenging staff or challenging board members-- to get to the right answer going forward. So I look at this as a very important aspect of board-staff relationships, and it's a really important role for the CEO and the chair of the board to handle. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I imagine that requires creating a lot of transparency and trust, right? So the board has to have some depth into what the organization's capabilities are, what they can actually do, and conversely, the staff needs to understand the role of the board. JOHN LOUNDS: Transparency, making sure that you're prepared, you've informed the board, you haven't hidden anything-- good or bad, the information, that's all important and needs to be shone a light on and discussed. I sometimes find-- I've seen in other organizations where the CEO-- because on the role, you know a lot about what's going on in all aspects of the business, but sometimes these CEOs are impatient and want the board to decide quickly and will jump in and say, no, no, what about this, what about that? But that's probably the worst thing you can do. It's better to just sit back, let the board have its full discussion, gain understanding, and come to conclusions that they wish to take, because by doing that, you're going to end up heading in the right direction. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's great. So when we started this conversation, you talked about how nature is your passion, and I've been reading more and more about the importance of purpose in organizations-- so really helping people connect their passion to the work that they are doing. And I imagine that in your organization, you have lots of passion-driven individuals. JOHN LOUNDS: 340 of them. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's awesome. Not everybody can say that. JOHN LOUNDS: No. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I'm just curious, could you talk to me a little bit about the benefits of leading a passion-driven organization and maybe what some of the unintended challenges might be? JOHN LOUNDS: The benefit of leading a passion-driven organization is that you really don't have to motivate people to get up in the morning and come to work and do the work they do. That is not the issue. They are ready to run and ready to do what they can because they so fully believe in the mission of the organization. The key, then, is how do you direct that energy and enthusiasm? How do you keep that enthusiasm going, but how do you direct that energy and enthusiasm? So the 340 people kind of working in the same direction, that's the challenge. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And what have you found to be helpful in channeling that energy? JOHN LOUNDS: Well, one of the ways that nonprofits and charities proceed is they organize campaigns. And often people will see in the news that there's a campaign for x hundred million dollars or whatever the case might be. And the number is important, because you do need funds to run the business. But more importantly than the money is actually the alignment that a campaign provides for everybody working in the organization. By setting a common goal, describing the impact of that-- what's the vision? Not the big vision over time, but over the next five years. And by organizing people toward campaigns, it's a really great way of ensuring that everybody's energy is channeled together. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Because I mentioned, the campaign is-- the fundraiser, clearly they're the target for them, but also it connects to the programmers because they need to think about how they'll use that money and have a clear message on it, and then your communications folks, the stories that they are telling. So all of a sudden this big goal that you've set out in the campaign, every individual that knows what they need to do to make it happen. JOHN LOUNDS: Absolutely. And it starts with what conservation work are you're going to get done, right? And what is the impact of that conservation work and can you describe it well to people? Because you can't raise money for just raising money. What is going to be the outcome? If I invest in the Nature Conservancy of Canada, what will happen over the next five years? All donors and funders are looking to know what that is. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I'm curious again on this notion of passionate-driven team members. I'm curious if you've ever had instances where somebody is hired, they're super passionate about the cause, they have great enthusiasm, and then they walk in the door and that enthusiasm doesn't necessarily translate to impact at an individual level. I'm curious if that happens and then how you handle it. JOHN LOUNDS: I'd say folks that have come into the organization that don't have that passion, we've made a hiring mistake there, or they've made a hiring-- they've made a choice to come. We've had some people that come from private sector organizations that think, oh, I'll kind of retire on my way into the work here. That's never the case. And then they are suddenly surprised that they're working more than they were before. I think you want to make sure you're getting the right people in the right seats on the bus, which is common parlance, but in nonprofits-- I'm a big fan of Peter Drucker in this regard. Basically that you need to look for that person's contribution. If they aren't working out in the role, it's best to think about can you re-pot these people into another role where they will be able to live their passion? And sometimes those require pretty tough conversations to get there, but I've found that that's not only for the person involved, but for the organization as a whole a better way to go. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So really thinking about what are their strengths, how can they have a contribution or make an impact here, and then thinking about where that actually fits with what the organization-- JOHN LOUNDS: Right. If they've truly come for the mission, if they're passionate about it, just leaving them by the wayside isn't going to actually help the overall cause as I was just describing. So you have to figure out how to use-- now sometimes the fit isn't quite right and those decisions sometimes are mutual, and perhaps other organizations that are working on environmental causes are a better fit in terms of their particular interests. So we have lots of alumni from the Nature Conservancy of Canada and lots of other places for all sorts of good reasons. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's great. I love that. It's just this idea of really keeping the passion of the organization and the purpose, and then thinking about the individual-- what do they need? What are their strengths? Where is that going to be a fit? And sometimes it's here and sometimes it's elsewhere, but it really is thinking about what's going to make that individual thrive. JOHN LOUNDS: In terms of choosing to work from home or wherever, that particular time is where we understand that, especially team members with young families. And in terms of the organization itself, we try and walk the talk that we are interested in the communities where we work, and where we believe that nature conservation is an important thing for Canada. One of the things we actually instituted-- we did it as a special a couple of years ago, but one of the things we instituted this past year permanently was to provide staff with two nature days during the summer months so that they can go and appreciate and reflect on the work they do. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's amazing. I want to nature conservative day. [LAUGHS] JOHN LOUNDS: Well, we'll set up a program and try and get many companies to do this. That'd be fantastic. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I think it'd be super fantastic. That's great. John, I just want to continue this conversation on nonprofits, and I'm wondering from your perspective, what you think some of the unique characteristics are of these organizations and how, as a leader, you may have to adapt our style to manage them. JOHN LOUNDS: Well, I think one of the important aspects, obviously, is reputation and trust. We're not selling a good or service, really, so unless our reputation is beyond reproach and people trust us with the funds that they're giving us, the rest doesn't really happen. As I said, we have to remember every day that every dollar is a gift and people have voluntarily provided this to us. So I think the reputation, being transparent, integrity, all the good things that should be part of any business are even heightened further in a non-profit charity. And I think part of it is just knowing yourself. That's a common phrase, but knowing who you are and who you're not, and then nobody can do everything, but if you can build partnerships, if you can build a team and make sure the team around you has all those skills and has all those abilities, the team can make it happen, but no one should think that they are the only person able to do all of this. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That amazing. I've been thinking more and more about the importance of leader self-awareness in being able to drive impact, because I believe that-- exactly that. If you-- nobody can do it all with themselves, and so by being aware, you can know where you need to augment your team or what you need to keep your energy up through the highs and lows of driving or leading an organization. What have you learned about yourself over the years that you've had to kind of not deal with, but that you've had to incorporate into your leadership style? And how have you done that? JOHN LOUNDS: I think I'm in with a good group of people, because I would say that largely, the team here at the Nature Conservancy of Canada are likely skewed to the introvert side of the scale rather than the extrovert side of the scale. I'm one of those, and I've had to learn and train myself to push through my inclination to not want to talk about what we're doing, not want to get out there and yell in the bright lights about the work that's being done. We're plant and animal people. We would like to talk to the plants and animals, we don't actually know people, a lot about them. But since our business is a relationship with people business, frankly, that, I think, I've had to strengthen, I think I have a very good understanding of how to individually relate to people. The challenge has been to speak more broadly and speak to larger groups, and I've been able to get there. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And what have you done to help yourself in those moments? JOHN LOUNDS: Practice, practice, practice. It's about the only way to get over it. And then when I'm giving those talks, that I've checked in with the people around me to make sure I've asked, how did I do? You can always improve, and you can always do better. It's important that you get others to-- who will tell you the truth, to reflect on what you did that could be improved and what you did that maybe you should leave behind next time. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So John, when we were talking before the podcast, you mentioned how important you feel it is for leaders to the culture of their organizations. Can you tell me why this is important to you and examples of how you've made this happen? So the nature days would be one of those examples, but what else have you done to really make the culture come to life? JOHN LOUNDS: What I've tried to do is instill a culture where people should listen to each other. You can learn a lot from not assuming that when somebody has said something, that that's actually what they're thinking, and get underneath that and listen to what they're really saying. The culture as I see it is you listen hard, you work hard, you play some, and again, you need to know that you can actually accomplish a lot more than you think you can, especially if you're working with your team. And I try and walk that talk. Like I said, trying to be a flexible, caring place to work, having people get out into nature so that they understand-- I mean, we've got a lot of people that work in the field, but we also have a lot of people that work in the office doing finance and other things that it's important for them to actually get to see the work. And if you're here for 15 years, which sounds like a long time, we give you a week and some funds to go and travel anywhere in Canada to go and understand what that part of the world is like and get outside. So we try and really live that as much as we can. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's amazing. John, I really enjoyed the conversation, and lots of amazing insights for myself and for the people who listen to the Leader Lab. I'm curious, just as we round out our conversation, if you had one practical piece of advice for leaders, something they can take away from this conversation and go do tomorrow that would really impact their effectiveness, what would that piece of advice be? JOHN LOUNDS: Well, I always start with my Stephen Leacock quote, which is, "I'm a great believer in luck, and the harder I work, the more I have of it." That's always watchwords for me. And one of the ways I try and do that is by not get caught up in the day-to-day and remember what the important things are. And I've had to do that. I do try and set aside three to four hours at least once a week to work on something important, because once you set aside that much time, you actually can't do your job, which is to think several years out, not just worry about what happened this month, last month. And I even take that to another place where I actually will go out to a place that's likely within a forest or nearby, and I'll take two to three days and actually just sequester myself and go and do that, because I find unless you actually step back from the day-to-day, you forget your perspective on what the important things are and what needs to be done in order to take you out for the next several years. ANNOUNCER: And now, let's get to know our guest a little better with some rapid fire questions. TINEKE KEESMAAT: As we wrap up the podcast, we have my favorite part. JOHN LOUNDS: Uh oh. TINEKE KEESMAAT: The random questions. Don't worry, they're not hard. [LAUGHTER] And just your first responses. JOHN LOUNDS: OK. TINEKE KEESMAAT: First, the craziest place in the world that you've been. JOHN LOUNDS: Oh no. [LAUGHTER] The craziest place in the world that I've been? That's supposed to be my first response? TINEKE KEESMAAT: Yeah. There's no right answer. JOHN LOUNDS: I know there's no right answer, but I could do a lot of places. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's awesome. Or most surprising place. JOHN LOUNDS: Manila. Oh, a surprising place? Labrador. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Are you an early bird or a night owl? JOHN LOUNDS: Early bird. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I'm not surprised. You as a teenager in three words. JOHN LOUNDS: Lost, driven, and a bit unsure of myself. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So a typical teenager. JOHN LOUNDS: Yeah. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And your favorite emoji? JOHN LOUNDS: I hate emojis. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] Fair enough. And the all-important final question-- how do you feel about Brussels sprouts? JOHN LOUNDS: I'm not a fan. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] Awesome. ANNOUNCER: Thank you for joining us today on Leader Lab. Leader Lab is powered by Tiltco, helping exceptional leaders achieve extraordinary results. And the Ivey Acedmy at Ivey Business School, Canada's home for learning and development. You can learn more about Tiltco and Leader Lab a tiltco.ca. And to find out more about the Ivey Academy, go to iveyacademy.com.

Should I Kubernetes? (Ep 18)

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 24, 2020 46:29

The question of diving into Kubernetes is something that faces us all in different ways. Whether you are already on the platform, are considering transitioning, or are thinking about what is best for your team moving forward, the possibilities and the learning-curve make it a somewhat difficult question to answer. In this episode, we discuss the topic and ultimately believe that an individual is the only one who can answer that question well. That being said, the capabilities of Kubernetes can be quite persuasive and if you are tempted then it is most definitely worth considering very seriously, at least. In our discussion, we cover some of the problems that Kubernetes solves, as well as some of the issues that might arise when moving into the Kubernetes space. The panel shares their thoughts on learning a new platform and compare it with other tricky installations and adoption periods. From there, we look at platforms and how Kubernetes fits and does not fit into a traditional definition of what a platform constitutes. The last part of this episode is spent considering the future of Kubernetes and how fast that future just might arrive. So for all this and a bunch more, join us on The Podlets Podcast, today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Bryan Liles Key Points From This Episode: The main problems that Kubernetes solves and poses. Why you do not need to understand distributed systems in order to use Kubernetes. How to get around some of the concerns about installing and learning a new platform. The work that goes into readying a Kubernetes production cluster. What constitutes a platform and can we consider Kubernetes to be one? The two ways to approach the apparent value of employing Kubernetes. Making the leap to Kubernetes is a personal question that only you can answer. Looking to the future of Kubernetes and its possible trajectories. The possibility of more visual tools in the UI of Kubernetes. Understanding the concept of conditions in Kubernetes and its objects. Considering appropriate times to introduce a team to Kubernetes. Quotes: “I can use different tools and it might look different and they will have different commands but what I’m actually doing, it doesn’t change and my understanding of what I’m doing doesn’t change.” — @carlisia [0:04:31] “Kubernetes is a distributed system, we need people with expertise across that field, across that whole grouping of technologies.” — @mauilion [0:10:09] “Kubernetes is not just a platform. Kubernetes is a platform for building platforms.” — @bryanl [0:18:12] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Weave — https://www.weave.works/docs/net/latest/overview/ AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/ DigitalOcean — https://www.digitalocean.com/ Heroku — https://www.heroku.com/ Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/en Debian — https://www.debian.org/ Canonical — https://canonical.com/ Kelsey Hightower — https://github.com/kelseyhightower Joe Beda — https://www.vmware.com/latam/company/leadership/joe-beda.html Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/ CloudFoundry — https://www.cloudfoundry.org/ JAY Z — https://lifeandtimes.com/ OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/ OpenShift — https://www.openshift.com/ KubeVirt — https://kubevirt.io/ VMware — https://www.vmware.com/ Chef and Puppet — https://www.chef.io/puppet/ tgik.io — https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7bmigfV0EqQzxcNpmcdTJ9eFRPBe-iZa Matthias Endler: Maybe You Don't Need Kubernetes - https://endler.dev/2019/maybe-you-dont-need-kubernetes Martin Tournoij: You (probably) don’t need Kubernetes - https://www.arp242.net/dont-need-k8s.html Scalar Software: Why most companies don't need Kubernetes - https://scalarsoftware.com/blog/why-most-companies-dont-need-kubernetes GitHub: Kubernetes at GitHub - https://github.blog/2017-08-16-kubernetes-at-github Debugging network stalls on Kubernetes - https://github.blog/2019-11-21-debugging-network-stalls-on-kubernetes/ One year using Kubernetes in production: Lessons learned - https://techbeacon.com/devops/one-year-using-kubernetes-production-lessons-learned Kelsey Hightower Tweet: Kubernetes is a platform for building platforms. It's a better place to start; not the endgame - https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/935252923721793536?s=2 Transcript: EPISODE 18 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.9] JR: Hello everyone and welcome to The Podlets Podcast where we are going to be talking about should I Kubernetes? My name is Josh Rosso and I am very pleased to be joined by, Carlisia Campos. [0:00:55.3] CC: Hi everybody. [0:00:56.3] JR: Duffy Cooley. [0:00:57.6] DC: Hey folks. [0:00:58.5] JR: And Brian Lyles. [0:01:00.2] BL: Hi. [0:01:03.1] JR: All right everyone. I’m really excited about this episode because I feel like as Kubernetes has been gaining popularity over time, it’s been getting its fair share of promoters and detractors. That’s fair for any piece of software, right? I’ve pulled up some articles and we put them in the show notes about some of the different perspectives on both success and perhaps failures with Kub. But before we dissect some of those, I was thinking we could open it up more generically and think about based on our experience with Kubernetes, what are some of the most important things that we think Kubernetes solves for? [0:01:44.4] DC: All right, my list is very short and what Kubernetes solves for my point of view is that it allows or it actually presents an interface that knows how to run software and the best part about it is that it doesn’t – the standard interface. I can target Kubernetes rather than targeting the underlying hardware. I know certain things are going to be there, I know certain networking’s going to be there. I know how to control memory and actually, that’s the only reason that I really would give, say for Kubernetes, we need that standardization and you don’t want to set up VM’s, I mean, assuming you already have a cluster. This simplifies so much. [0:02:29.7] BL: For my part, I think it’s life cycle stuff that’s really the biggest driver for my use of it and for my particular fascination with it. I’ve been in roles in the past where I was responsible for ensuring that some magical mold of application on a thousand machines would magically work and I would have all the dependencies necessary and they would all agree on what those dependencies were and it would actually just work and that was really hard. I mean, getting to like a known state in that situation, it’s very difficult. Having something where either both the abstractions of containers and the abstraction of container orchestration, the ability to deploy those applications and all those dependencies together and the ability to change that application and its dependencies, using an API. That’s the killer part for me. [0:03:17.9] CC: For me, from a perspective of a developer is very much what Duffy just said but more so the uniformity that comes with all those bells and whistles that we get by having that API and all of the features of Kubernetes. We get such a uniformity across such a really large surface and so if I’m going to deploy apps, if I’m going to allow containers, what I have to do for one application is the same for another application. If I go work for another company, that uses Kubernetes, it is the same and if that Kubernetes is a hosted Kubernetes or if it’s a self-managed, it will be the same. I love that consistency and that uniformity that even so I can – there are many tools that help, they are customized, there’s help if you installing and composing specific things for your needs. But the understanding of what you were doing is it’s the same, right? I can use different tools and it might look different and they will have different commands but what I’m actually doing, it doesn’t change and my understanding of what I’m doing doesn’t change. I love that. Being able to do my work in the same way, I wish, you know, if that alone for me makes it worthwhile. [0:04:56.0] JR: Yeah, I think like my perspective is pretty much the same as what you all said and I think the one way that I kind of look at it too is Kubernetes does a better job of solving the concerns you just listed, then I would probably be able to build myself or my team would be able to solve for ourselves in a lot of cases. I’m not trying to say that specialization around your business case or your teams isn’t appropriate at times, it’s just at least for me, to your point Carlisia, I love that abstraction that’s consistent across environments. It handles a lot of the things, like Brian was saying, about CPU, memory, resources and thinking through all those different pieces. I wanted to take what we just said and maybe turn it a bit at some of the common things that people run in to with Kubernetes and just to maybe hit on a piece of low hanging fruit that I think is oftentimes a really fair perspective is Kubernetes is really hard to operate. Sure, it gives you all the benefits we just talked about but managing a Kubernetes cluster? That is not a trivial task. And I just wanted to kind of open that perspective up to all of us, you know? What are your thoughts on that? [0:06:01.8] DC: Well, the first thought is it doesn’t have to be that way. I think that’s a fallacy that a lot of people fall into, it’s hard. Guess what? That’s fine, we’re in the sixth year of Kubernetes, we’re not in the sixth year of stability of a stable release. It’s hard to get started with Kubernetes and what happens is we use that as an excuse to say well, you know what? It’s hard to get started with so it’s a failure. You know something else that was hard to get started with? Whenever I started with it in the 90s? Linux. You download it and downloading it on 30 floppy disks. There was the download corruption, real things, Z modem, X modem, Y modem. This is real, a lot of people don’t know about this. And then, you had to find 30 working flopping disk and you had to transfer 30, you know, one and a half megabyte — and it still took a long time to floppy disk and then you had to run the installer. And then most likely, you had to build a kernel. Downloading, transferring, installing, building a kernel, there was four places where just before you didn’t have windows, this was just to get you to a log in prompt, that could fail. With Kubernetes, we had this issue. People were installing Kubernetes, there’s cloud vendors who are installing it and then there’s people who were installing it on who knows what hardware. Guess what? That’s hard and it’s not even now, it’s not even they physical servers that’s networking. Well, how are you going to create a network that works across all your servers, well you’re going to need an overlay, which one are you going to use, Calico? Use Weave? You’re going to need something else that you created or something else if it works. Yeah, just we’re still figuring out where we need to be but these problems are getting solved. This will go away. [0:07:43.7] BL: I’m living that life right now, I just got a new laptop and I’m a Linux desktop kind of guy and so I’m doing it right now. What does it take to actually get a recent enough kernel that the hardware that is shipped with this laptop is supported, you know? It’s like, those problems continue, even though Linux has been around and considered stable and it’s the underpinning of much of what we do on the internet today, we still run into these things, it’s still a very much a thing. [0:08:08.1] CC: I think also, there’s a factor of experience, for example. This is not the first time you have to deal with this problem, right Duffy? Been using Linux on a desktop so this is not the first hardware that you had to setup Linux on. So you know where to go to find that information. Yeah, it’s sort of a pain but it’s manageable. I think a lot of us are suffering from gosh, I’ve never seen Kubernetes before, where do I even start and – or, I learned Kubernetes but it’s quite burdensome to keep up with everything as opposed to let’s say, if 10 years from now, we are still doing Kubernetes. You’ll be like yeah, okay, whatever. This is no big deal. So because we have done these things for a few years that we were not possibly say that it’s hard. I don’t’ think we would describe it that way. [0:09:05.7] DC: I think there will still be some difficulty to it but to your point, it’s interesting, if I look back like, five years ago, I was telling all of my friends. Look, if you’re a system’s administrator, go learn how to do other things, go learn how to be, go learn an API centric model, go play with AWS, go play with tools like this, right? If you’re a network administrator, learn to be a system’s administrator but you got to branch out. You got to figure out how to ensure that you’re relevant in the coming time. With all the things that are changing, right? This is true, I was telling my friend this five years ago, 10 years ago, continues, I continue to tell my friends that today. If I look at the Kubernetes platform, the complexity that represents in operating it is almost tailor made to those people though did do that, that decided to actually branch out and to understand why API’s are interesting and to understand, you know, can they have enough of an understanding in a generalist way to become a reasonable systems administrator and a network administrator and you know, start actually understanding the paradigms around distributed systems because those people are what we need to operate this stuff right now, we’re building – I mean, Kubernetes is a distributed system, we need people with expertise across that field, across that whole grouping of technologies. [0:10:17.0] BL: Or, don’t. Don’t do any of that. [0:10:19.8] CC: Brian, let me follow up on that because I think it’s great that you pointed that out Duffy. I was thinking precisely in terms of being a generalist and understanding how Kubernetes works and being able to do most of it but it is so true that some parts of it will always be very complex and it will require expertise. For example, security. Dealing with certificates and making sure that that’s working, if you want to – if you have particular needs for networking, but, understanding the whole idea of this systems, as it sits on top of Kubernetes, grasping that I think is going to – have years of experience under their belt. Become relatively simple, sorry Brian that I cut you off. [0:11:10.3] BL: That’s fine but now you gave me something else to say in addition to what I was going to say before. Here’s the killer. You don’t need to know distributed systems to use Kubernetes. Not at all. You can use a deployment, you can use a [inaudible] set, you can run a job, you can get workloads up on Kubernetes without having to understand that. But, Kubernetes also gives you some good constructs either in the Kubernetes API's itself or in its client libraries where you could build distributed systems in easier way but what I was going to say before that though is I can’t build a cluster. Well don’t. You know what you should do? Use a cloud vendor, use AWS, use Google, use Microsoft or no, I mean, did I say Microsoft? Google and Microsoft. Use Digital Ocean. There’s other people out there that do it as well, they can take care of all the hard things for you and three, four minutes or 10 minutes if you’re on certain clouds, you can have Kubernetes up and running and you don’t even have to think about a lot of these networking concerns to get started. I think that’s a little bit of the thud that we hear, "It’s hard to install." Well, don’t install it, you install it whenever you have to manage your own data centers. Guess what? When you have to manage your own data centers and you’re managing networking and storage, there’s a set of expertise that you already have on staff and maybe they don’t want to learn a new thing, that’s a personal problem, that’s not really a Kubernetes problem. Let’s separate those concerns and not use our lack or not wanting to, to stop us from actually moving forward. [0:12:39.2] DC: Yeah. Maybe even taking that example step forward. I think where this problem compounds or this perspective sometimes compounds about Kubernetes being hard to operate is coming from of some shops who have the perspective of are operational concerns today, aren’t that complex. Why are we introducing this overhead, this thing that we maybe don’t need and you know, to your point Brian, I wonder if we’d all entertain the idea, I’m sure we would that maybe even, speaking to the cloud vendors, maybe even just a Heroku or something. Something that doesn’t even concern itself with Kube but can get your workload up and running and successful as quickly as possible. Especially if you’re like, maybe a small startup type persona, even that’s adequate, right? It could have been not a failure of Kubernetes but more so choosing the wrong tool for the job, does that resonate with you all as well, does that make sense? [0:13:32.9 DC: Yeah, you know, you can’t build a house with a screwdriver. I mean, you probably could, it would hurt and it would take a long time. That’s what we’re running into. What you’re really feeling is that operationally, you cannot bridge the gap between running your application and running your application in Kubernetes and I think that’s fair, that’s actually a great thing, we prove that the foundations are stable enough that now, we can actually do research and figure out the best ways to run things because guess what? RPM’s from Red Hat and then you have devs from the Debian project, different ways of getting things, you have Snap from Canonical, it works and sometimes it doesn’t, we need to actually figure out those constructs in Kubernetes, they’re not free. These things did not exist because someone says, "Hey, I think we should do this." Many years. I was using RPM in the 90s and we need to remember that. [0:14:25.8] JR: On that front, I want to maybe point a question to you Duffy, if you don’t mind. Another big concern that I know you deal with a lot is that Kubernetes is great. Maybe I can get it up no problem. But to make it a viable deployment target at my organization, there’s a lot of work that goes into it to make a Kubernetes cluster production ready, right? That could be involving how you integrate storage and networking and security and on and on. I feel like we end up at this tradeoff of it’s so great that Kubernetes is super extensible and customizable but there is a certain amount of work that that kind of comes with, right? I’m curious Duff, what’s your perspective on that? [0:15:07.3] DC: I want to make a point that bring back to something Brian mentioned earlier, real quick, before I go on to that one. The point is that, I completely agree that yo do not have to actually be a distributed systems person to understand how to use Kubernetes and if that were a bar, we would have set that bar and incredibly, the inappropriate place. But from the operational perspective, that’s what we were referring to. I completely also agree that especially when we think about productionalizing clusters, if you’re just getting into this Kubernetes thing, it may be that you want to actually farm that out to another entity to create and productionalize those clusters, right? You have a choice to make just like you had a choice to make what when AWS came along. Just like you had a choice to make — we’re thinking of virtual machines, right? You have a choice and you continue to have a choice about how far down that rabbit hole as an engineering team of an engineering effort your company wants to go, right? Do you want farm everything out to the cloud and not have to deal with the operations, the day to day operations of those virtual machines and take the constraints that have been defined by that platformer, or do you want to operate that stuff locally, are you required by the law to operate locally? What does production really mean to you and like, what are the constraints that you actually have to satisfy, right? I think that given that choice, when we think about how to production Alize Kubernetes, it comes down to exactly that same set of things, right? Frequently, productionalizing – I’ve seen a number of different takes on this and it’s interesting because I think it’s actually going to move on to our next topic in line here. Frequently I see that productionizing or productionalizing Kubernetes means to provide some set of constraints around the consumption of the platform such that your developers or the focus that are consuming that platform have to operate within those rails, right? They could only define deployments and they can only define deployments that look like this. We’re going to ask them a varied subset of questions and then fill out all the rest of it for them on top of Kubernetes. The entry point might be CICD, it might be a repository, it might be code repository, very similar to a Heroku, right? The entry point could be anywhere along that thing and I’ve seen a number of different enterprises explore different ways to implement that. [0:17:17.8] JR: Cool. Another concept that I wanted to maybe have us define and think about, because I’ve heard the term platform quite a bit, right? I was thinking a little bit about you know, what the term platform means exactly? Then eventually, whether Kubernetes itself should be considered a platform. Backing u, maybe we could just start with a simple question, for all of us, what makes something a platform exactly? [0:17:46.8] BL: Well, a platform is something that provides something. That is a Brian Lyles exclusive. But really, what it is, what is a platform, a platform provides some kind of service that can be used to accomplish some task and Kubernetes is a platform and that thing, it provides constructs through its API to allow you to perform tasks. But, Kubernetes is not just a platform. Kubernetes is a platform for building platforms. The things that Kubernetes provides, the workload API, the networking API, the configuration and storage API’s. What they provide is a facility for you to build higher level constructs that control how you want to run the code and then how you want to connect the applications. Yeah, Kubernetes is actually a platform for platforms. [0:18:42.4] CC: Wait, just to make sure, Brian. You’re saying, because Kelsey Hightower for example is someone who says Kubernetes is a platform of platforms. Now, is Kubernetes both a platform of platforms, at the same time that it’s also a platform to run apps on? [0:18:59.4] BL: It’s both. Kelsey tweeted that there is some controversy on who said that first, it could have been Joe Beda, it could have been Kelsey. I think it was one of those two so I want to give a shout out to both of those for thinking in the same line and really thinking about this problem. But to go back to what you said, Carlisia, is it a platform for providing platforms and a platform? Yes, I will explain how. If you have Kubernetes running and what you can do is you can actually talk to the API, create a deployment. That is platform for running a workload. But, also what you can do is you can create through Kubernetes API mechanisms, ie. CRD’s, custom resource definitions. You can create custom resources that I want to have something called an application. You can basically extend the Kubernetes API. Not only is Kubernetes allowing you to run your workloads, it’s allowing you to specify, extend the API, which then in turn can be run with another controller that’s running on your platform that then gives you this thing when you cleared an application. Now, it creates deployment which creates a replica set, which creates a pod, which creates containers, which downloads images from a container registry. It actually is both. [0:20:17.8] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. Another quote that I remember being fascinated by which I think kind of also helps define what a platform is Kelsey put on out quote that said, Everybody wants platform at a service with the only requirement being that they’ve built it themselves." Which I think is awesome and it also kind of speaks, in my opinion to what I think the definition of a platform is, right? It’s an interface through which we can define services or applications and that interface typically will have some set of constraints or some set of workflows or some defined user experience on top of it. To Brian's point, I think that Kubernetes is a platform because it provides you a bunch of primitive s on the back end that you can use to express what that user experience might be. As we were talking earlier about what does it take to actually – you might move the entry point into this platform from the API, the Kubernetes API server, back down into CICD, right? Perhaps you're not actually defining us and called it a deployment, you’re just saying, I want so many instances off this, I don’t want it to be able to communicate with this other thing, right? It becomes – so my opinion, the definition about of a platform it is that user experience interface. It’s the constraints that we know things that you're going to put on top of that platform. [0:21:33.9] BL: I like that. I want to throw out a disclaimer right here because we’re here, because we’re talking about platforms. Kubernetes is not a platform, it’s as surface. That is actually, that’s different, a platform as a service is – from the way that we look at it, is basically a platform that can run your code, can actually make your code available to external users, can scale it up, can scale it down and manages all the nuances required for that operation to happen. Kubernetes does not do that out of the box but you can build a platform as a surface on Kubernetes. That’s actually, I think, where we’ll be going next is actually people, stepping out of the onesy-twosy, I can deploy a workload, but let’s actually work on thinking about this level. And I’ll tell you what. DEUS who got bought by Azure a few years ago, they actually did that, they built a pass that looks like Heroku. Microsoft and Azure thought that was a good idea so they purchased them and they’re still over there, thinking about great ideas but I think as we move forward, we will definitely see different types of paths on Kubernetes. The best thing is that I don’t think we’ll see them in the conventional sense of what we think now. We have a Heroku, which is like the git-push Heroku master, we share code through git. And then we have CloudFoundry idea of a paths which is, you can run CFPush and that actually is more of an extension of our old school Java applications, where we could just push [inaudible] here but I think at least I am hoping and this is something that I am actually working on not to toot my own horn too much but actually thinking about how do we actually – can we build a platform as a service toolkit? Can I actually just build something that’s tailing to my operation? And that is something that I think we’ll see a lot more in the next 18 months. At least you will see it from me and people that I am influencing. [0:23:24.4] CC: One thing I wanted to mention before we move onto anything else, in answering “Is Kubernetes right for me?” We are so biased. We need to play devil’s advocate at some point. But in answering that question that is the same as in when we need to answer, “Is technology x right for me?” and I think there is at a higher level there are two camps. One camp is very much of the thinking that, "I need to deliver value. I need to allow my software and if the tools I have are solving my problem I don’t need to use something else. I don’t need to use the fancy, shiny thing that’s the hype and the new thing." And that is so right. You definitely shouldn't be doing that. I am divided on this way of thinking because at the same time at that is so right. You do have to be conscious of how much money you’re spending on things and anyway, you have to be efficient with your resources. But at the same time, I think that a lot of people who don’t fully understand what Kubernetes really can do and if you are listening to this, if you maybe could rewind and listen to what Brian and Duffy were just saying in terms of workflows and the Kubernetes primitives. Because those things they are so powerful. They allow you to be so creative with what you can do, right? With your development process, with your roll out process and maybe you don’t need it now. Because you are not using those things but once you understand what it is, what it can do for your used case, you might start having ideas like, “Wow, that could actually make X, Y and Z better or I could create something else that could use these things and therefore add value to my enterprise and I didn’t even think about this before.” So you know two ways of looking at things. [0:25:40.0] BL: Actually, so the topic of this session was, “Should I Kubernetes” and my answer to that is I don’t know. That is something for you to figure out. If you have to ask somebody else I would probably say no. But on the other side, if you are looking for great networking across a lot of servers. If you are looking for service discovery, if you are looking for a system that can restart workloads when they fail, well now you should probably start thinking about Kubernetes. Because Kubernetes provides all of these things out of the box and are they easy to get started with though? Some of these things are harder. Service discovery is really easy but some of these things are a little bit harder but what Kubernetes does is here comes my hip-hop quote, Jay Z said this, basically he’s talking about difficult things and he basically wants difficult things to take a little bit of time and impossible things or things we thought that were impossible to take a week. So basically making difficult things easy and making things that you could not even imagine doing, attainable. And I think that is what Kubernetes brings to the table then I’ll go back and say this one more time. Should you use Kubernetes? I don’t know that is a personal problem that is something you need to answer but if you’re looking for what Kubernetes provides, yes definitely you should use it. [0:26:58.0] DC: Yeah, I agree with that I think it is a good summary there. But I also think you know coming back to whether you should Kubernetes part, from my perspective the reason that I Kubernetes, if you will, I love that as a verb is that when I look around at the different projects in the infrastructure space, as an operations person, one of the first things I look for is that API that pattern around consumption, what's actually out there and what’s developing that API. Is it a the business that is interested in selling me a new thing or is it an API that’s being developed by people who are actually trying to solve real problems, is there a reasonable way to go about this. I mean when I look at open stack, OpenStack was exactly the same sort of model, right? OpenStack existed as an API to help you consume infrastructure and I look at Kubernetes and I realize, “Wow, okay well now we are developing an API that allows us to think about the life cycle and management of applications." Which moves us up the stack, right? So for my part, the reason I am in this community, the reason I am interested in this product, the reason I am totally Kubernetes-ing is because of that. I realized that fundamentally infrastructure has to change to be able to support the kind of load that we are seeing. So whether you should Kubernetes, is the API valuable to you? Do you see the value in that or is there more value in continuing whatever paradigm you’re in currently, right? And judging that equally I think is important. [0:28:21.2] JR: Two schools of thoughts that I run into a lot on the API side of thing is whether overtime Kubernetes will become this implementation detail, where 99% of users aren’t even aware of the API to any extent. And then another one that kind of talks about the API is consistent abstraction with tons of flexibility and I think companies are going in both directions like OpenShift from Red Hat is perhaps a good example. Maybe that is one of those layer two platforms more so Brian that you were talking about, right? Where Kubernetes is the platform that was used to build it but the average person that interacts with it might not actually be aware of some of the Kubernetes primitives and things like that. So if we could all get out of our crystal balls for a second here, what do you all think in the future? Do you see the Kubernetes API becoming just a more prevalent industry standard or do you see it fading away in favor of some other abstraction that makes it easier? [0:29:18.3] BL: Oh wow, well I already see it as I don’t have to look too far in the future, right? I can see the Kubernetes API being used in ways that we could not imagine. The idea that I will think of is like KubeVirt. KubeVirt allows you to boot basically pods on whatever implements that it looks like a Kubelet. So it looks like something that could run pods. But the neat thing is that you can use something like KubeVirt with a virtual Kubelet and now you can boot them on other things. So ideas in that space, I don’t know VMware is actually going on that, “Wow, what if we can make virtual machines look like pods inside of Kubernetes? Pretty neat." Azure has definitely led work on this as now, we can just bring up either bring up containers, we can bring up VM’s and you don’t actually need a Kube server anymore. Now but the crazy part is that you can still use a workloads API’s, storage API’s with Kubernetes and it does not matter what backs it. And I’ll throw out one more suggestion. So there is also projects like AWS operators in [inaudible] point and what they allow you to do is to use the Kubernetes API or actually in cluster API, I'll use all three. But I use the Kubernetes API to boot things that aren’t even in the cluster and this will be AWS services or this could be databases across multiple clouds or guess what? More Kubernetes services. Yeah, so we are on that path but I just can’t wait to see what people are going to do with that. The power of Kubernetes is this API, it is just so amazing. [0:30:50.8] DC: For my part, I think is that I agree that the API itself is being extended in all kinds of amazing ways but I think that as I look around in the crystal ball, I think that the API will continue to be foundational to what is happening. If I look at the level two or level three platforms that are coming, I think those will continue to be a thing for enterprises because they will continue to innovate in that space and then they will continue to consume the underlying API structure and that portability Kubernetes exposes to define what that platform might look like for their own purpose, right? Giving them the ability to effectively have a platform as a service that they define themselves but using and under – you know, using a foundational layer that it’s like consistent and extensible and extensive I think that that’s where things are headed. [0:31:38.2] CC: And also more visual tools, I think is in our future. Better, actual visual UI's that people can use I think that’s definitely going to be in our future. [0:31:54.0] BL: So can I talk about that for a second? [0:31:55.9] CC: Please, Brian. [0:31:56.8] BL: I am wearing my octant hoodie today, which is a visual tool for Kubernetes and I will talk now as someone who has gone down this path to actually figure this problem out. As a prediction for the future, I think we’ll start creating better API’s in Kubernetes to allow for more visual things and the reason that I say that this is going to happen and it can’t really happen now is because for inside of an octant and whenever creating new eye views, pretty much happened now what that optic is. But what is going to happen and I see the rumblings from the community, I see the rumblings from K-native community as well is that we are going to start standardizing on conditions and using conditions as a way that we can actually say what’s going on. So let me back it up for a second so I can explain to people what conditions are. So Kubernetes, we think of Kubernetes as YAML and in a typical object in Kubernetes, you are going to have your type meta data. What is this, you are going to have your object meta data, what’s name this and then you are going to have a spec, how is this thing configured and then you are going to have a status and the status generally will say, “Well what is the status of this object? Is it deployment? How many references out? If it is a pod, am I ready to go?" But there is also this concept and status called conditions, which are a list of things that say how your thing, how your object is working. And right now, Kubernetes uses them in two ways, they use them in the negative way and the positive way. I think we are actually going to figure out which one we want to use and we are going to see more API’s just say conditions. And now from a UI developer, from my point of view, now I can just say, “I don’t really care what your optic is. You are going to give me conditions in a format that I know and I can just basically report on those in the status and I can tell you if the thing is working or not.” That is going to come too. And that will be neat because that means that we get basically, we can start building UI’s for free because we just have to learn the pattern. [0:33:52.2] CC: Can you talk a little bit more about conditions? Because this is not something I hear frequently and that I might know but then not know what you are talking about by this name. [0:34:01.1] BL: Oh yeah, I will give you the most popular one. So everything in Kubernetes is an object and that even means that the nodes that your workloads run on, are objects. If you run KubeControl, KubeCuddle, Kube whatever, git nodes, it will show you all the nodes in your cluster if you have permission to see that and if you do KubeCTL, gitnode, node name and then you actually have the YAML output what you will see in the bottom is an object called 'conditions'. And inside of there it will be something like is there sufficient memory, is the node – I actually don’t remember all of them but really what it is, they’re line items that say how this particular object is working. So do I have enough memory? Do I have enough storage? Am I out of actual pods that can be launched on me and what conditions are? It is basically saying, “Hey Brian, what is the weather outside?” I could say it's nice. Or I could be like, “Well, it’s 75 degrees, the wind is light but variable. It is not humid and these are what the conditions are.” They allow the object to specify things about itself that might be useful to someone who is consuming it. [0:35:11.1] CC: All right that was useful. I am actually trying to bring one up here. I never paid attention to that. [0:35:18.6] BL: Yeah and you will see it. So the two ones that are most common right now, there is some competition going on in Kubernetes architecture, trying to figure out how they are going to standardize on this but with pods and nodes you will see conditions on there and those are just telling you what is going on but the problem is that a condition is a type, a message, a status and something else but the problem is that the status can be true of false — oh and a reason, the status can be true or false but sometimes the type is a negative type where it would be like “node not ready”. And then it will say false because it is. And now whenever you’re inspecting that with automated code, you really want the positive condition to be true and the negative condition to be false and this is something that the K-native community is really working on now. They have the whole facility of this thing called duck typing. Which they can actually now pattern-match inside of optics to find all of these neat things. It is actually pretty intriguing. [0:36:19.5] CC: All right, it is interesting because I very much status is everything for objects and that is very much a part of my work flow. But I never noticed that there was some of the objects had conditions. I never noticed that and just a plug, we are very much going to have the K-native folks here to talk about duck typing. I am really excited about that. [0:36:39.9] BL: Yeah, they’re on my team. They’ll be happy to come. [0:36:42.2] CC: Oh yes, they are awesome. [0:36:44.5] JR: So I was thinking maybe we could wrap this conversation up and I think we have acknowledged that “Should I Kubernetes?” is a ridiculously hard question for us to answer for you and we should clearly not be the ones answering it for you but I was wondering if we could give some thoughts around — for the Podlet listener who is sitting at their desk right now thinking like, “Is now the right time for my organization to bring this in?” And I will start with some thought and then open it all up to you. So one common thing I think that I run into a lot is you know your current state and you know your desired state to steal a Kubernetes concept for a moment. And the desired state might be more decoupled services that are more scalable and so on and I think oftentimes at orgs we get a little bit too obsessed with the desired state that we forget about how far the gap is between the current state and the desired state. So as an example, you know maybe your shop’s biggest issue is the primary revenue generating application is a massive dot-net framework monolith, which isn’t exactly that easy to just port over into Kubernetes, right? So if a lot of your friction right now is teams collaborating on this tool, updating this tool, scaling this tool, maybe before even thinking about Kubernetes, being honest with the fact that a lot of value can be derived right now from some amount of application architecture changes. Or even sorry to use a buzzword but some amount of modernization of aspects of that application before you even get to the part of introducing Kubernetes. So that is one common one that I run into with orgs. What are some other kind of suggestion you have for people who are thinking about, “Is it the right time to introduce Kube?” [0:38:28.0] BL: So here is my thought, if you work for a small startup and you’re working on shipping value and you have no Kubernetes experience and staff and you don’t want to use for some reason you don’t want to use the cloud, you know go figure out your other problems then come back. But if you are an enterprise and especially if you work in a central enterprise group and you are thinking about “modernization”, I actually do suggest that you look at Kubernetes and here is the reason why. My guess is that if you’re a business of a certain size, you run VMware in your data center. I am just guessing that because I haven’t been to a company that doesn’t. Because we learned a long time ago that using virtual machines in many cases is way more efficient than just running hardware because what happens is we can’t use our compute capacity. So if you are working for a big company or even like a medium sized company, I don’t think – I am not telling you to run for it but I am telling you to at least have someone go look at it and investigate if this could ultimately be something that could make your stack easier to run. [0:39:31.7] DC: I think I am going to take the kind of the operations perspective. I think if you are in the business of coming up with a way to deploy applications on the servers and you are looking at trying to handle the lifecycle of that and you’re pretty fed up with the tooling that is out there and things like Puppet and Chef and tooling like that and you are looking to try and understand is there something in Kubernetes for me? Is there some model that could help me improve the way that I actually handle a lifecycle of those applications, be they databases or monoliths or compostable services? Any which way you want to look at it like are there tools there that can be expressed. Is the API expressive enough to help me solve some of those problems? In my opinion the answer is yes. I look at things like DaemonSet and the things like scheduling [inaudible] that are exposed by Kubernetes. And there is actually quite a lot of power there, quite a lot of capability in just the traditional model of how do I get this set of applications onto that set of servers or some subset they’re in. So I think it is worth evaluating if that is the place you’re in as an organization and if you are looking at fleets of equipment and trying to handle that magical recipe of multiple applications and dependencies and stuff. See what is the water is like on this side, it is not so bad. [0:40:43.1] CC: Yes, I don’t think there is a way to answer this question. It is Kubernetes for me without actually trying it, giving it a try yourself like really running something of maybe low risk. We can read blogposts to the end of the world but until you actually do it and explore the boundaries is what I would say, try to learn what else can you do that maybe you don’t even need but maybe might become useful once you know you can use. Yeah and another thing is maybe if you are a shop that has one or two apps and you don’t need full blown, everything that Kubernetes has to offer and there is a much more scaled down tool that will help you deploy and run your apps, that’s fine. But if you have more, a certain number, I don’t know what that number would be but multiple apps and multiple services just think about having that uniformity across everything. Because for example, I’ve worked in shops where the QA machines were taking care by a group of dev ops people and the production machines, oh my god they were taken care by other groups and now the different group of people and the two sides of these groups used were different and I as a developer, I had to know everything, you know? How to deploy here, how to deploy there and I had to have my little notes and recipes because whenever I did it – First of all I wasn’t doing that multiple times a day. I had to read through the notes to know what to do. I mean just imagine if it was one platform that I was deploying to with the CLI comments there, it is very easy to use like Kubernetes has, gives us with Kubes ETL. You know you have to think outside of the box. Think about these other operations that you have that people in your company are going to have to do. How is this going to be taught in the future? Having someone who knows your stack because your stack is the same that people in your industry are also using. I think about all of these things not just – I think people have to take it across the entire set of problems. [0:43:01.3] BL: I wanted to mention one more thing and this is we are producing lots of content here with The Podlets and with our coworkers. So I want to actually give a shout out to the TGIK. We want to know what you can do in Kubernetes and you want to have your imagination expanded a little bit. Every Friday we make a new video and actually funny enough, three fourths of the people on this call have actually done this. Where, on Friday, we pick a topic and we go in and it might be something that would be interesting to you or it might not and we are all over the place. We are not just doing applications but we are applications low level, mapping applications on Kubernetes, new things that just came out. We have been doing this for a 101 episodes now. Wow. So you can go look at that if you need some examples of what things you could do on Kubernetes. [0:43:51.4] CC: I am so glad to tgik.io maybe somebody, an English speaker should repeat that because of my accent but let me just say I am so glad you mentioned that Brian because I was sitting here as we are talking and thinking there should be a catalog of used cases of what Kubernetes can do not just like the rice and beans but a lot of different used cases, maybe things that are unique that people don’t think about to use because they haven’t run into that need yet. But they could use it as a pause, okay that would enable me to do these thing that I didn’t even think about. That is such a great catalog of used cases. It is probably the best resource. Somebody say the website again? Duffy what is it? [0:44:38.0] DC: tgik.io and it is every Friday at 1 PM Pacific. [0:44:43.2] CC: And it is live. It’s live and it’s recorded, so it is uploaded to the VMware Cloud Native YouTube and everything is going to be on the show notes too. [0:44:52.4] DC: It’s neat, you can come ask us questions there is a live chat inside of that and you can use that live chat. You can ask us questions. You can give us ideas, all kinds of crazy things just like you can with The Podlets. If you have an idea for an episode or something that you want us to cover or if you have something that you are interested in, you can go to thepodlets.io that will link you to our GitHub pages where you can actually open an issue about things you’d love to hear more about. [0:45:15.0] JR: Awesome and then maybe on that note, Podlets, is there anything else you all would like to add on “Should I Kubernetes?” or do you think we’ve – [0:45:22.3] BL: As best as our bias will allow it I would say. [0:45:27.5] JR: As best as we can. [0:45:27.9] CC: We could go another hour. [0:45:29.9] JR: It’s true. [0:45:30.8] CC: Maybe we’ll have “Should I Kubernetes?” Part 2. [0:45:34.9] JR: All right everyone, well that wraps it up for at least Part 1 of “Should I Kubernetes?” and we appreciate you listening. Thanks so much. Be sure to check out the show notes as Duffy mentioned for some of the articles we read preparing for this episode and TGIK links and all that good stuff. So again, I am Josh Russo signing out, with us also Carlisia Campos. [0:45:55.8] CC: Bye everybody, it was great to be here. [0:45:57.7] JR: Duffy Coolie. [0:45:58.5] DC: Thanks you all. [0:45:59.5] JR: And Brian Lyles. [0:46:00.6] BL: Until next time. [0:46:02.1] JR: Bye. [END OF EPISODE] [0:46:03.5] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Keeping up with Cloud Native (Ep 17)

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 17, 2020 50:55

If you work in Kubernetes, cloud native, or any other fast-moving ecosystem, you might have found that keeping up to date with new developments can be incredibly challenging. We think this as well, and so we decided to make today’s episode a tribute to that challenge, as well as a space for sharing the best resources and practices we can think of to help manage it. Of course, there are audiences in this space who require information at various levels of depth, and fortunately the resources to suit each one exist. We get into the many different places we go in order to receive information at each part of the spectrum, such as SIG meetings on YouTube, our favorite Twitter authorities, the KubeWeekly blog, and the most helpful books out there. Another big talking point is the idea of habits or practices that can be helpful in consuming all this information, whether it be waiting for the release notes of a new version, tapping into different TLDR summaries of a topic, streaming videos, or actively writing posts as a way of clarifying and integrating newly learned concepts. In the end, there is no easy way, and passionate as you may be about staying in tune, burnout is a real possibility. So whether you’re just scratching the cloud native surface or up to your eyeballs in base code, join us for today’s conversation because you’re bound to find some use in the resources we share. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Olive Power Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: Audiences and different levels of depth that our guests/hosts follow Kubernetes at. What ‘keeping up’ means: merely following news, or actually grasping every new concept? The impossibility of truly keeping up with Kubernetes as it becomes ever more complex. Patterns used to keep up with new developments: the TWKD website, release notes, etc. Twitter’s helpful provision of information, from opinions to tech content, all in one place. How helpful Cindy Sridharan is on Twitter in her orientation toward distributed systems. The active side of keeping up such as writing posts and helping newcomers. More helpful Twitter accounts such as InfoSec. How books provide one source of deep information as opposed to the noise on Twitter. Books: Programming Kubernetes; Managing Kubernetes; Kubernetes Best Practices. Another great resource for seeing Kubernetes in action: the KubeWeeky blog. A call to watch the SIG playlists on the Kubernetes YouTube channel. Tooling: tab management and Michael’s self-built Twitter searcher. Live streaming and CTF live code demonstrations as another resource. How to keep a team updated using platforms like Slack and Zoom. The importance of organizing shared content on Slack. Challenges around not knowing the most important thing to focus on. Cognitive divergence and the temptation of escaping the isolation of coding by socializing. The idea that not seeing keeping up to date as being a personal sacrifice is dangerous. Using multiple different TLDR summaries to cement a concept in one’s brain. Incentives for users rather than developers of projects to share their experiences. The importance of showing appreciation for free resources in keeping motivation up. Quotes: “An audience I haven’t mentioned is the audience that basically just throws up their hands and walks away because there’s just too much to keep track of, right?” — @mauilion [0:05:15] “Maybe it’s because I’m lazy, I don’t know? But I wait until 1.17 drops, then I go to the release notes and really kind of ingest it because I’ve just struggled so much to kind of keep up with the day to day, ‘We merged this, we didn’t merge this,’ and so on.” — @joshrosso [0:10:18] “If you find value in being up to date with these things, just figure out – there are so many resources out there that address these different audiences and figure out what the right measure for you is. You don’t have to go deep on the code on everything.” — @mauilion [0:27:57] “Actually putting the right content in the right channel, at least from a higher level, helps me decide whether I want to like look at that channel today, and stuff that should be in the channel is not kind of in a conversation channel.” — @opowero [0:32:21] “When I see something that is going to give me the fundamentals, like I have other priorities now, I sort of always want to consume that to learn the fundamentals, because I think in the long term phase of, but then I neglect physically what I need to know to do in the moment.” — @carlisia [0:33:39] “Just do nothing, because our brain needs that. We need to not be listening, not be reading, just nothing. Just sit and look at the ceiling. Our brain needs that. Ideally, look at nature, like look outside, look at the air, go for a walk. We need that, because that recharges the brain.” — @carlisia [0:42:38] “Just consuming and keeping up, that doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t give back.” — @embano1 [0:49:32] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Chris Short — https://chrisshort.net/ Last Week in Kubernetes Development — http://lwkd.info/ 1.17 Release Notes — https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/release/notes/ Release Notes Filter Page — https://relnotes.k8s.io/ Cindy Sridharan on Twitter — https://twitter.com/copyconstruct InfoSec on Twitter — https://twitter.com/infosec?lang=en Programming Kubernetes on Amazon —https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Kubernetes-Developing-Cloud-Native-Applications/dp/1492047104 Managing Kubernetes on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Kubernetes-Operating-Clusters-World/dp/149203391X Brendan Burns on Twitter — https://twitter.com/brendandburns Kubernetes Best Practices on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Best-Practices-Blueprints-Applications-ebook/dp/B081J62KLW/ KubeWeekly — https://kubeweekly.io/ Kubernetes SIG playlists on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2bu0qutTOM0tHYa_jkIwg/playlists Twitch — https://www.twitch.tv/ Honeycomb — https://www.honeycomb.io/ KubeKon EU 2019 — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2019/ Aaron Crickenberger on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/spiffxp/ Stephen Augustus on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenaugustus Office Hours — https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/events/office-hours.md Transcript: EPISODE 17[INTRODUCTION][0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you.[EPISODE][0:00:41.5] DC: Good afternoon everybody and welcome to The Podlets. In this episode, we’re going to talk about, you know, one of the more challenging things that we all have to do, just kind of keep up with cloud native and how we each approach that and what we do. Today, I have a number of cohosts with me, I have Olive Power.[0:00:56.6] OP: Hi.[0:00:57.4] DC: Carlisia Campos.[0:00:58.6] CC: Hi everybody.[0:00:59.9] DC: Josh Rosso.[0:01:01.3] JR: Hey all.[0:01:02.8] DC: And Michael.[0:01:01.1] MICHAEL: Hey, hello.[0:01:04.8] DC: This episode, we’re going to do something a little different than we normally do. In most of our episodes, we try to remain somewhat objective around the problem and the potential solutions for it, rather than prescribing a particular solution. In this episode, however, since we’re talking about how we keep up with all of the crazy things that happen in such a fast ecosystem, we’re going to probably provide quite a number of examples or resources that you yourself could use to drive and to try and keep up to date with what’s happening out there.Be sure to check out the notes after the episode is over at thepodlets.io and you will find a link to the episodes up at the top part, click down to this episode, and check out the notes. There will be tons of resources. Let’s get started.One of the things I think about that’s interesting about keeping up with something like, you know, a Kubernetes or a fast-moving project, regardless of what that project is, whether it’s Kubernetes or, you know, for a while, it was the Mesos that I was following or OpenStack or a number have been big infrastructure projects that have been very fast moving over time and I think what’s interesting is I find that there’s multiple audiences that we kind of address when we think about what it means to ‘keep up,’ right?Keeping up with something like a project is interesting because I feel like there’s an audience that it’s actually very interested in what’s happening with the design goals or the code base of the project, and there’s an audience that is very specific to wanting to understand at a high level – like, “Give me the State of the World report like every month or so just so I can understand generally what’s happening with the project, like is it thriving? Is it starting to kind of wane? Are there big projects that it’s taking on?”And then there’s like, then I feel like there’s an audience somewhere in the middle there where they really want to see people using the project and understand, and know how to learn from those people who are using it so that they can elevate their own use of that project. They’re not particularly interested in the codebase per se but they do want to understand, are they exploring this project at a depth that makes sense for themselves? What do you all think about that?[0:03:02.0] CC: I think one thing that I want to mention is that this episode, it’s not so much about on-boarding people onto Kubernetes and the Kubernetes ecosystem. We are going to have an episode soon to talk specifically about that. How you get going, like get started. I think Duffy mentioned this so we’re going to be talking about how we all keep up with things. Definitely, there are different audiences, even when we’re talking about keeping up.[0:03:32.6] JR: Yeah, I think what’s funny about your audience descriptions, Duffy, is I feel like I’ve actually slid between those audiences a bit, right? It’s funny, back in the day, Kubernetes like one-four, one-five days, I feel like I was much more like, “What’s going on in the code?” Like trying to keep track of like how things are progressing.Now my role is a lot more focused with working with customers and standing up cube and like making a production ready. I feel like I’m a lot more, kind of reactive and more interested to see like, what features have become stable and impact me, you know what I mean? I’m far less in the weeds than I used to be. It’s a super interesting thing.[0:04:08.3] OP: Yeah, I tend to – for my role, I tend to definitely fall into the number three first which is the kind of general keeping an eye on things. Like when you see like interesting articles pop up that maybe have been linked internally because somebody said, “Oh, check out this article. It’s really interesting.”Then you find that you kind of click through five or six articles similar but then you can kind of flip to that kind of like, “Oh, I’m kind of learning lots of good stuff generally about things that folks are doing.” To actually kind of having to figure out some particular solution for one of my customers and so having to go quite deep into that particular feature.You kind of go – I kind of found myself going right in and then back out, right in, going back out depending on kind of where I am on a particular day of the week. It’s kind of a bit tricky. My brain sometimes doesn’t kind of deal with that sort of deep concentration into one particular topic and then back out again. It’s not easy.I find it quite tough actually some of the time.[0:05:05.0] DC: Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. Keeping track of everything is – it’s why the episode, right? How do we even approach it? It seems – I feel like, an audience I haven’t mentioned is the audience that basically just throws up their hands and walks away because there’s just too much to keep track of, right? I feel like we are all that at some point, you know?I get that.[0:05:26.4] OP: That’s why we have Christmas holidays, right? To kind of refresh the brain.[0:05:31.4] CC: Yeah, I maybe purposefully or maybe not even – not trying to keep up because it is too much, it is a lot, and what I’m trying to do is, go deeper on the things that I already, like sort of know. And things that I am working with on a day to day basis. I only really need to know, I feel like, I really only need to know – because I’m not working directly with customers.My scope is very well defined and I feel that I really only need to know whenever there’s a new Kubernetes release. I need to know what the release is. We usually – every once in a while, we update our project to the – we bump up the Kubernetes release that we are working against and in general, yeah, it’s like if things come my way, if it’s interesting, I’ll take a look, but mostly, I feel like I work in a spiral.If I’m doing codes related to controllers and there’s a conference talk about controllers then okay, let me take a look at this to maybe learn how to design this thing better, implement in a better way if I know more about it. If I’m doing, looking at CRDs, same thing. I really like conference talks for education but that’s not so much keeping up with what’s new. Are we talking about educating ourselves with things that we don’t know about?Things that we don’t know about. Or are we talking about just news?[0:07:15.6] JR: I think it’s everything. That’s a great question. One of my other questions when we were starting to talk about this was like, what is keeping up even mean, right? I mean, does it mean, where do you find resources that are interesting that keep you interested in the project or are you looking for resources that just kind of keep you up to date with what’s changing? It’s a great question.[0:07:36.2] MICHAEL: Actually, there was some problem that I faced when I edit the links that I wanted to share in the show. I started writing the links and then I realized, “Well, most of the stuff is not keeping up with news, it’s actually understanding the technology,” because I cannot keep up.What does help me in understanding specific areas, when I need to dig into them and I think back five or four years into early days of Kubernetes, it was easy to catch up by the time because it was just about Kubernetes. Later right, it became this platform. We realized that it actually this platform thing. Then we extended Kubernetes and then we realized there are CICD-related stuff and operations and monitoring and so the whole ecosystem grew. The landscape grew so much that today, it’s impossible to keep up, right?I think I’m interested in all those patterns that you have developed over the years that help you to manage this, let’s say complexity or stream of information.[0:08:33.9] DC: Yeah, I agree. This year, I was thinking about putting up a talk with Chris Short, it was actually last year. That was about kind of on the same topic of keeping up with it. In that, I kind of did a little research into how that happens and I feel like some of the interesting stuff that came out of that was that there are certain patterns that a project might take on that make it easier or more approachable to, you know, stay in contact with what’s happening.If we take Kubernetes as an example, there are a number of websites I think that pretty much everybody here kind of follows to some degree, that helps, sort of, kind of, address those different audiences that we were talking about.One of the ones that I’ve actually been really impressed with is LWKD which stands for Last Week in Kubernetes Development, and as you can imagine, this is really kind of focused on, kind of – I wouldn’t say it’s like super deep on the development but it is watching for things that are changing, that are interesting to the people who are curating that particular blog post, right?They’ll have things in there like, you know, code freezes coming up on this date, IPV6, IPV4, duel stack is merging, they’ll have like some of the big mile markers that are happening in a particular release and where they are in time as it relates to that release. I think if that’s a great pattern and I think that – it’s a very narrow audience, right? It would really only be interesting to people who are interested in, or who are caught up in the code base, or just trying to understand like, maybe I want a preview of what the release notes might look like, so I might just like look for like a weekly kind of thing.[0:10:03.4] JR: Yeah, speaking of the release notes, right? It’s funny. I do get to look at Last Week in Kubernetes development every now and then. It’s an awesome resource but I’ve gotten to the point where the release notes are probably my most important thing for staying up to date.Maybe it’s because I’m lazy, I don’t know, but I wait till 1.17 drops, then I go to the release notes and really kind of ingest it because I’ve just struggled so much to kind of keep up with the day to day, “We merged this, we didn’t merge this,” and so on. That has been a huge help for me, you know, day to day, week to week, month to month.[0:10:37.0] MICHAEL: Well, what was also helpful just on the release notes that the new filter webpage that they put out in 1.15, starting 1.15. Have you all seen that?[0:10:44.4] JR: I’ve never heard of it.[0:10:45.4] DC: Rel dot, whatever it is. Rel dot –[0:10:47.7] MICHAEL: Yeah, if you can share it Duffy, that’s super useful. Especially like if you want to compare releases and features added and –[0:10:55.2] DC: I’ll have to dig it up as well. I don’t remember exactly what –[0:10:56.7] CC: I’m sorry, say? Which one is that again?[0:10:59.1] MICHAEL: The real notes. I’ll put it in the hackMD.[0:11:02.8] DC: Yeah relnotes.k8s.io which is an interesting one because it’s sort of like a comparison engine that allows you to kind of compare what it would have featured like how to feature relates to different versions of stuff.[0:11:14.4] CC: That’s great. I cannot encourage enough for the listeners to look at the show notes because we have a little document here that we – can I? The resources are amazing. There are so many things that I have never even heard about and sound great – is – I want to go to this whole entire list. Definitely check it out. We might not have time to mention every single thing. I don’t want people to miss on all the goodness that’s been put together.[0:11:48.7] DC: Agreed, and again, if you’re looking for those notes, you just go to the podlets.io. Click on ‘episodes’ at the right? And then look for this episode and you’ll find that it’s there.[0:11:58.0] CC: I can see that a lot of the content in those notes are like Twitter feeds. Speaking personally, I’m not sure I’m at the stage yet where I learn a lot about Twitter feeds in terms of technical content. Do you guys find that it’s more around people’s thoughts around certain things so thought-provoking things around Kubernetes and the ecosystem rather than actual technical content. I mean, that’s my experience so far.But looking at those Twitter feeds, maybe I guess I might need to follow some of those feeds. What do you all think?[0:12:30.0] MICHAEL: Do you mean the tweets are from those like learn [inaudible 0:12:32] or the person to be tweets?[0:12:35.3] OP: You’ve listed some of there, Michael, and some sort of.[0:12:37.6] MICHAEL: I just wanted to get some clarity. The reason I listed so many Twitter accounts there is because Twitter is my only kind of newsfeed if you will. I used Feedly and RSS and others before and emails and threads. But then I just got overwhelmed and I had this feeling of missing out on all of those times.That’s why I said, “Okay, let’s just use Twitter.” To your question, most of these accounts are people who have been in the Kubernetes space for very long, either running Kubernetes, developing on Kubernetes, having opinions about Kubernetes.Opinions in general on topics related to cloud native because we didn’t want to make the search just about Kubernetes. Most of these people, I really appreciate their thoughts and some of them also just a retweet things that they see which I missed somewhere else and not necessarily just opinions. I think It’s a good mix of these accounts, providing options, some guidance, and also just news that I miss out on because not being on the other channels.[0:13:35.6] OP: Yeah, I agree because sometimes you can kind of read – I tend to require a lot of sort of blog posts and sort of web posts which, you know, without realizing it can be kind of opinionated and then, you know, it’s nice to then see some Twitter feeds that kind of actually just kind of give like a couple of words, a kind of a different view which sometimes makes me think “Okay, I understand that topic from a certain article that I’ve read, it’s just really nice to hear a kind of a different take on it through Twitter.”[0:14:03.0] CC: I think some of the accounts, like fewer of the accounts – and there are a bunch of things that – there are listed accounts here that I didn’t know before so I’ll check them out. I think fewer of the accounts are providing technical content, for example, Cindy Sridharan, not pronouncing it correctly but Cindy is great, she puts out a lot of technical content and a lot of technical opinion and observations that is really good to consume. I wish I had time to just read her blog posts and Twitter alone.She’s very oriented towards distributed systems in general, so she’s not even specific just Kubernetes. Most of the accounts are very opinionated and the benefit for me is that sometimes I catch people talking about something that I didn’t even know was a thing. It’s like, “Oh, this is a thing I should know about for the work that I do,” and like Michael was saying, you know, sometimes I catch retweets that I didn’t catch before and I just – I’m not checking out places, I’m not checking – hash tagging Reddit.I rely on Twitter and the people who I follow to – if there is a blog post that sounds important, I just trust that somebody would, that I’m going to see it multiple times until like, “Okay, this is content that is related to something and I’m working on, that I want to get better at.” Then I’ll go and look at it. My sources are mainly Twitter and YouTube and it’s funny because I love blog posts but it’s like I haven’t been reading them because it takes a long time to read a blogpost.I give preference to video because I can just listen while I’m doing stuff. I sort of stopped reading blog post which is sad. I also want to start writing posts because it’s so helpful for me to engrain the things that I’m learning and hopefully it will be helpful to other people too. But in any case, go Duffy.[0:16:02.8] DC: A number of people that I follow – I have been cultivating my feed pretty carefully, trying to get a broad perspective of technical stuff that’s happening. But also I’ve been trying to develop my persona on Twitter a bit more, right? I’m actually trying to build my audience there. What’s interesting there is I’ve been trying to – to that end, what I’ve been doing is like trying to amplify voices that I think aren’t heard enough out there, right?If I see an article by somebody who is just coming into Kubernetes. or just coming into distributed systems and they’ve taken an effort to really lay out something that they found really interesting about pretty much anything, right? I’m like, “Okay, that’s pretty awesome,” and I’ll try to amplify that, right? Sometimes I even get involved or I’ll, not directly in public on Twitter but I’ll offer to help edit or help provide whatever our guidance I can provide around that sort of stuff.If I see people like having a difficult time with a particular project or something like that, I’ll reach out privately and say, “Hey, can I help you with it so you can go out there and do a great job,” you know? That is something I love to do. I think your point about like not necessarily going at Twitter for the deep knowledge stuff but more just like making sure that you have a broad enough awareness of what’s happening in different ecosystems that you’re not surprised by the things when the things change, right?A couple of other people that I follow are Akira Asuta, I can’t say enough about that person. They are amazing, they have been doing like, incredibly deep security stuff as it relates to containerization and stuff like that for quite a while. I’m always like, learning brand new things to me when following folks like that. I’ve been kind of getting more interested in InfoSec Twitter lately, learning how people kind of approach that problem.Also some of the bias arounds that which has been pretty interesting. Both the bias against people who are in InfoSec which seems weird to me. Also, how InfoSec approaches a problem, like do they put it like a learning experience or they approach it like an attack experience.It’s been kind of fascinating to get in there.[0:18:08.1] OP: You know, I kind of use Twitter as well for some of this stuff but you know, books are kind of a resource as well but in my head, kind of like at the opposite scale. You know, I obviously don’t read as many books as I read twitter feeds, right? It’s just kind of like, with Twitter, you can kind of digest the whole of the stuff and with books, it’s kind of like – I tend to be trying – because I know, I’m only going to read – like I’m only going to read maybe one/two books a year.I’ve kind of like – as I said before, blog posts seem to take up my reading time and books kind of tend to be for like on airplanes and stuff. So if – they’re just kind of two opposite resources for me but I find actually, the content of books are probably stuff that I digest a bit more because you know, it’s kind of like, I don’t know, back to the old days. It’s kind of a physical thing on hand and I can kind of read it and digest it a bit more than the kind of throwaway stuff that kind of keeps on Twitter.Because to be honest, I don’t know what’s on Twitter. Who is kind of a person to listen to or who is not or who is – I just try and form my own opinions and then, again, it kind of gets a bit overwhelming, because it’s a lot of content just streaming through continuously, whereas a book, it’s kind of like just one source of information that is kind of like a bit more personal that I can digest a bit more.[0:19:18.1] JR: Any particular book recommendation in 2019, Olive, that you found particularly interesting?[0:19:23.5] OP: I’m still reading, and it’s on the list for the episode notes actually, Programming Kubernetes. I just want to kind of get into that sort of CRD sort of mindset a bit. I think that’s kind of an area that’s interesting and an area that a lot of people will want to use in their organizations, right, because it’s going to do some of the extensibility to Kubernetes that’s just not there out of the box and everybody wants something that’s not out of the box or always in my experience.[0:19:47.4] MICHAEL: I found the Managing Kubernetes, I think was it, by – from Brendan Burns and some other folks which was just released I think in the end of last year. Super deep and that is kind of the opposite to the Programming Kubernetes, because I like that as well. That is more geared towards understanding architecture and operations.Operational concepts –[0:20:05.0] OP: They’re probably the two books I’ve read.[0:20:08.4] MICHAEL: Okay.[0:20:08.9] OP: One a year, remember?[0:20:11.4] MICHAEL: Yeah.[0:20:14.6] OP: Prolific reading.[0:20:19.6] CC: I think if you know what you need to learn about cloud native or Kubernetes, there’s amazing books out there, and if you are still exploring Kubernetes and trying to learn, I cannot recommend this book enough. If you are watching this on YouTube, you’ll see the cover. It’s called Kubernetes Best Practices because it’s about Kubernetes best practices but what they did simultaneously and maybe they didn’t even realize is just they gave a map for the entire thing.You go, “Oh, these are all the elements in Kubernetes.” Of course, it’s saying, “Okay, this is the best way to go about setting the stuff up,” and this is relatively thin but I just think that going through this book, you get really fast overview of the elements in Kubernetes. Then you can go to other books like Managing Kubernetes to go deep and understand all of the knobs and switches.[0:21:24.6] DC: I want to bring it back to the patterns that we see successful projects. Projects that you think are approachable but, you know, projects that are out there that make it easy for you to kind of stay – or easier at least to stay up to date with them, what some of those patterns are that you think are useful for projects.We’re talking about like having a couple of different entry points from kind of a weekly report mechanism, we’ve talked about the one that LWKD is, I don’t think we got to talk about KubeWeekly which is actually a weekly blog that is actually curated by a lot of the CNCF ambassadors. KubeWeekly is also broken up in different sections, so like sometimes they’ll just talk about – but they’re actually going out actively and trying to find articles of people using Kubernetes and then trying to post those.If you’re interested in understanding how people are actually out there using it, then that’s a great place to go find articles that are kind of related to that. What are some other patterns that we see that are out there that are useful for books?[0:22:27.6] DC: One that I really like. Kubernetes, for everyone listening has this notion of special interest groups, SIGs oftentimes. They’re focused on certain areas of the project. There’s some for networking and storage and life cycles of clusters and what’s amazing, I try to watch them somewhat weekly, I don’t always succeed.They’re all on YouTube and if you go to the Kubernetes project YouTube, there’s playlists for every SIG. A lot of times I’m doing work relating to life cycles of clusters. I’ll open up the cluster life cycle playlist and I’ll just watch the weekly meetings. While it doesn’t always pertain to completely to me, it lets me understand kind of where the developers and contributor’s heads are at and where they’re kind of headed with a lot of different things.There’s a link to that as well if anyone wants to check it out.[0:23:15.9] MICHAEL: Exactly, to add to that. If you don’t have the time to watch the videos, the meeting notes that these gentlemen and women put together are amazing. Usually, I just scroll through and if it’s something to triggers, I go into the episode and watch it.[0:23:28.7] OP: I almost feel like we should talk about tooling to handle all of this stuff, for example, right now, I think I have 200 tabs opened. I just started learning about some chrome extensions to manage tabs. I haven’t started really using them but I need. I don’t have a good system. My system is open a video that I’m pretty sure I want to watch and just get to that tab eventually until something happens in my chrome goes bust and I lose everything.I wanted to mention that when we say watch YouTube, some things you don’t need to sit there and actually watch, you can just listen to it and if you pay for the five bucks for YouTube premium – I don’t get a commission you people, but I’m just saying, for me, it’s so helpful. I can just turn off you know, put my phone on my pocket and keep listening to it without having to have the phone open and on the whole time. It’s very handy.It’s just like listening to a podcast. I also listen to podcasts lots of days.[0:24:35.1] MICHAEL: For tooling, since I’m just mostly on Twitter and by the time I was using or starting to use Twitter, they didn’t have this bookmark function, so I was basically abusing likes or favorites at the time, I think, to bookmark. What I realized later, my bookmarks grew, well, my likes grew.I wanted to go back and find something but that through the Twitter search was just impossible. I blew the tiny little go tool, kind of my first exercise there to just parse my likes and then use JQ because it’s all JSON to query and manipulate the stuff. I almost use it every day because I was like, that was a talk or blog post about scheduling and just correct for scheduling and the likes.I’m sure there’s a better tool or way of doing that but for me, that’s mine too. Because that’s my workflow.[0:25:27.6] DC: Both of the two blogs that you mentioned both KubeWeekly and LWKD, they both have the ability to take – you can submit stories to them. If you come across things that are interesting and you’d like to put that up on an aggregator somewhere, this is one of the ways to kind of solve that problem because at least if it gets cleared up on an aggregator, you know that you go back to the aggregator to see it, so that helps.Some other ones I’ve seen out there, I’ve seen people, I’ve seen a number of interesting startups now, starting to kind of like put out a podcast or – and I have started to see a number of people like you know, engaging with Twitch and also doing things like what we do with TJK.io which is like have sort of some kind of a weekly thing where you are just hacking on stuff live and just exploring it whether that is related to – if you think of about TJK is we’re going to do without being related necessarily to anything that we are doing at VMware just anything to do with the community but obviously if you are working for one of the small companies like Honeycomb or some other company.A smaller kind of startup, you can really just get people more aware of that because for some reason people love to watch others code. They love to understand how people go through that, what are their thought process is and I find it awesome as well. I think it is amazing to me how big a draw that is, you know?[0:26:41.1] OP: And is there lots of them out there Duffy? Is that kind of an easy searchable thing or is it like how do you know those things are going on?[0:26:48.4] DC: Oddly enough Twitter, most of the time, yeah. I mean, most of the time I see that kind of stuff happening on Twitter, like somebody will like – I will scope with this or a number of other people will say, “Hey, I am going to do a live stream during this period of time on this,” and I have actually seen a number of people doing live streams on CTFs, which are capture the flags. That one’s really been fascinating to me because it has been how do people think about approaching the security of an application.Like where do they look for weak spots and how do you determine, how do you approach that kind of a problem, which is fascinating. So yeah, I think it is important to remember that like you know, you are not the only one trying to keep up to date with all of this stuff, right? The one thing we all have said pretty consistently here is that it is a lot, and it is not just Kubernetes, right? Like any fast moving project. It could be your favorite Ruby module that has 200 contributors, right?It doesn’t matter what it is, it is a lot to keep a track of, and it represents some of that cognitive overheads that you have to think about. That is a lot to take on. Even if it is overwhelming, if you find value in being up to date with these things, just figure out – there are so many resources out there that address these different audiences and figure out what the right measure for you is. You don’t have to go deep on the code on everything.Sometimes it might be better to just try and find a source of information that gives you a high enough of a view. Maybe you are looking at the blog posts that come out on Kubernetes.io every release and you are just looking at the release notes and if you just read the release notes every release, that is already miles ahead of what I have seen a lot of folks out there when they are starting to ask me questions about how do you keep up to date.[0:28:35.9] JR: I’m curious, we have been talking a lot about keeping up as an individual. Do you all have strategies for how you help, let’s say your overall team, keep up with all the things that are going on? To give an example, Duffy, Olive and myself, at least at one point, were on the same team and we’d go out to disparate customers and see all of these different new things that they are trying to do or new projects that they are using.So we’d have to think about how do we get together and share that internally to make sure we are bringing the whole team along with what is going on in the ecosystem especially from a customer perspective. I know one of the ways that we do that is having demos and things of that nature that we share weekly. Are there other strategies that you all use with your teams to kind of share interesting information and news?[0:29:25.5] M: So what we do is mostly the way we share in our team, and we are a small team. We use Slack. We pre-filter in terms of like if there is stuff that I think is valuable for me and probably not for the whole team – obviously we are not going to share, but I think if it is related to something that the team has or to come grant and then I will share on Slack but we don’t have any formal way. I know people use some reports, weekly reports, or other platforms to distribute but we just use Slack.[0:29:53.0] DC: I think one of the things – one of the patters that we had at [inaudible 0:29:54] that I thought was actually super helpful was that we would engage a conversation. “I learned a cool new thing about whatever today,” and so we would say, “I am going to – ” and then we would start a Zoom call around that and then people could join if they wanted to, to be a part of the live discussion or not, and if they didn’t, they would still be able to see a recorded Zoom pop up in the channel later on.So even if your time zones don’t line up, like I know it is 2 AM or 3 AM or something like that for Olive right now, you can still go back to those recorded sessions and you’ll just see it on your daily Slack stuff. You would be able to see, “Oh there was a conversation about whether you should deploy Kubernetes crossed availibility zones or not. I would like to go see that,” and see what the inputs were, and so that can be helpful.[0:30:42.5] JR: Yeah, that is a super interesting observation. It is almost like remote-first teams that are used to these processes of recording everything and putting it in a Google doc. They are more equipped for that information sharing perhaps than like the water cooler conversations you’d have in the office.[0:30:58.5] OP: And on the Slack or any of the communication tool, we have different channels because we are all in lots of channels and to have channels dedicated to a particular subject is absolutely the way to go because otherwise in my previous company that seem to be kind of one main channel that all the architect used to discussed everything on and you know sometimes you join and you’re like, “What is everybody talking about?”There would be literally about a hundred messages on some sort of theme that I have never heard of. So you come away from that thinking that, “That is the main channel. Where is the bit – is there messages in the middle that I missed that were just normal discussions as opposed to in around the technical stuff,” and so it made me a bit sad, right? I would be like, “I haven’t understood something and there is a whole load of stuff on this channel that I don’t understand.”But it is the kind of central channel for everyone. So I think you end up then start looking up things that they are discussing and then realizing actually that is not really anything related to what I need to know about today or next week. It might be something for the future but I’ve got other stuff to focus on. So my point is that those communication channels for me sometimes can make me feel a little bit behind the curve or very much sort of reactive in trying to jump on things that are actually not really anything to do with me for me now and wasting my time slightly and kind of messing with my head a little bit in that like, “I really need to try and focus out stuff,” and actually putting the right content in the right channel, at least from a higher level, helps me decide whether I want to like look at that channel today, and stuff that should be in the channel is not kind of in a conversation channel. So organization of where that content is, is important to me.[0:32:37.6] CC: I am so in the same page with you Olive. That is the way my brain works as well. I want to have multiple channels, like if we are talking about Slack or any chat tool, but some people have such aversion to multiple channels. They really have a hard time dealing with too many – like testing their threshold of what they think is too many channels. So I am always mindful too, like it has to work for everybody but if it was up to me, there will be one channel per topic. So I know where to focus on.But you said something that is so interesting. How do we even just – like you were saying in the context of channel, multiple channels, and I go, if I need to pay attention to this this week as oppose to like, I don’t need to look at this until some time in the future. How do we even decide what we focus on that is useful for us in the moment versus it would be good for me to know but I don’t need to know right now.I am super bad at this. When I see something that is going to give me the fundamentals, like I have other priorities now, I sort of always want to consume that to learn the fundamentals because I think in the long term phase of, but then I neglect physically what I need to know to do in the moment and I am trying to sort of fish there and get focused on in the moment things. Anybody else have a hard time?[0:34:04.5] DC: You are not alone on that, yeah.[0:34:06.7] CC: It is terrible.[0:34:08.3] MICHAEL: Something that I wish I would do more often as like being a good citizen is like when you read a lot, probably 90% of my time is not writing but reading, maybe even more and then I share and then on Twitter, the tweet for them the most successful ones in terms of retweets or likes are the ones where I do like TLDR’s or some screen captures like too long to read. Where people don’t have the time, they might want to read the article but they don’t have the time.But if you put in like a TLDR like either a tweet or a thread on it, a lot of people would jump onto it because they can just easily capture it and they can still read the full article if they want but that is something that I learned and it is pretty – what is the right word? Helpful to my followers and the community but I just don’t do it that often unfortunately. If I am writing, summarizing, writing, I kind of remember. That is how the brain works. It is a nice side effect.[0:35:04.9] DC: I was saying, this is definitely one of those things where you can be the change you want to see if you, you know?[0:35:08.6] M: Yeah, I know.[0:35:10.0] DC: This is awesome. I would also say that what you just raised Carlisia is like a super valid point. I mean like not everybody’s brain works the same way, right? There are people who are neuro-divergent. There are people who think very linearly and they are very comfortable with that and there are people who don’t. So it is a struggle I think regardless of how your brain is wired to understand to how to prioritize the attention you will give any given subject.In some cases, your brain is not wired – your brain is almost wired against that whole idea, like you are just not set up for success when it comes to figuring out how to prioritize your attention.[0:35:49.0] CC: You hit the nail on the head. We are so set up for failure in that department because there are so many interesting conversations and you want to hop in and you want to be a part of the conversation and part of the group and socialize. Our work is so isolating to really put our heads down and just work, it can be so isolating. So it is great to participate in conversations out there even if it is for only via Twitter. I mean, obviously we are very biased towards Twitter here in this group.But I am not even this on Twitter so just keep that in mind that we are cognizant of that but in any case, I don’t know what the answer is but what I am trying always to cut down on that, those social activities that seem so appealing. I don’t know how to do that from working out.[0:36:43.9] JR: I am in the same boat. 2020, I am hoping to let more of that go and to your point, it is not that there is no value in it. It is just, I don’t know, I am not deriving the same amount of quality out of it because I am so just multiplexed all over the place, right? So we’ll see how it goes.[0:36:59.9] CC: Oh if any listener has opinions and obviously it seems that all of us are helpless in that department. Share with us, please.[0:37:12.5] DC: It is a tricky one. I think it is also interesting because I find that when we talk about things like work-life balance, we think of the idea of maybe work-life balance is that when you come at the end of the day and you go home and you don’t think about work, right? Sometimes we think that work-life balance means that you have a certain amount of time off that you can actually spend with your family and your friends or your community, what have you, and not be engaging on multiple fronts.Just be that – have that be your focus, but when it comes to things like keeping up, when it comes to things like learning or elevating your education and stuff, it seems like, for the most part, and this is just my own assumption, I am curious how you all feel about this, that we don’t – that that doesn’t enter into it, right? Your personal time is totally on the table when it comes to how do you keep up with these things. We don’t even think about it that way, right?I know I personally don’t. I definitely have to do more and cut back on the amount of time that I spend reading. I am right there with Michael on 90% of my time when my eyes are open, they are either reading or staring up on the sky while I try to think about what I am going to write next. You know one way or the other it is like that is what I am doing.[0:38:24.0] CC: Yeah.[0:38:25.1] MICHAEL: I noticed last year on my Twitter feed, more people than the years before will complain about like personal burn out. I saw a pattern, like reading those people’s tweets, I saw a pattern there. It wasn’t really like a spiral and then they realized and they shot down like deleted Twitter from their phones or any messaging and other stuff, and I think I am at the point where I also need to do that when it comes to vacation PDO, or whatever.Because I am just like, as you said Duffy, my free time is on the table when it comes to Twitter and catching up and keeping up because work-life balance in my mind is not work but what is not work for like – Kubernetes is exciting, adding in all the space, like what is not work there? I need to really get better at that because I think I might end in the same spiral of just soaking in more until I just –[0:39:17.7] CC: Yeah and like Josh said, it is not that there isn’t a value. Obviously we derive a huge value, that is why we’re on it, but you have to weigh things and what are your goals and is that the best way to your goals from where you are right now, and maybe you know, Twitter you use for a while, ramp up your knowledge, ramp up the connections because it is great for making connections, and then you step back and focus on something else, then to go on a cycle.This is how I am thinking now. It is just like what Olive was saying, you know, books are great, blog posts are great, and I absolutely agree with that. It is just that I don’t have even the time and when I have the time, I would be reading code and I would be reading things all day long, it is just really tiring for me at the end of the day to sit down and read more. I want to invest in learning how to speed read to solve that problem because I read a lot of books and blog posts. So something on my list.[0:40:22.8] DC: One of the biggest tips on speed reading I ever learned is that frequently when you read you think of saying the word and if you can get out of that habit, if you get out of the habit of saying the word even with your mouth or you just get out of that habit that will already increase the quickness of what you read.[0:40:39.5] CC: That is so interesting.[0:40:41.4] DC: Yeah, that is a trippy one.[0:40:43.1] CC: Because I think being bilingual, I totally like – that really helps me understand things, by saying the words.[0:40:52.9] DC: I think the point that we are all working around here is, there is a great panel that came out at KubeCon EU in 2019 was put on by Aaron Crickenberger, Esther McNaMara, Steven Augustus, these folks are all very high output people. I mean, they do a lot of stuff especially with regard to community and so they put on a panel that was talking about burn out and self-care and I think that it is definitely worth checking that one out.And actually also thinking about what keeping up means to you and making sure that you are measuring that against your ability to sustain, is incredibly important, right? I feel like keeping up is one of those subjects where we end up – it is almost insidious in its way to – it is a thing that we can just do all the time. We can just spend all of our time, any free moment that you have, you are sitting on the bus, you are trying to keep up with things.And because that happens so much, I feel like that is sort of one of the ways that we can feel burnt out as you are seeing today. We can feel like we did a lot of things but there was no real result to it and keep in mind that that’s part of it, right? Like when you are thinking about how we are keeping up with it, make sure that the value to your time is still something that you have some cognizance about, that you have some thought about, like is it worth it to me to just spend this six hours reading everything, right?Or would it be better for me to spend some amount of time just not reading, you know? Like doing something else, you know? Like bake a cake for crying out loud, you know?[0:42:29.5] CC: Something that a lot of times we don’t allow ourselves to do and I decided to speak for everybody I am sorry, I just do nothing, because our brain needs that. We need to not be listening, not be reading, just nothing. Just sit and look at the ceiling, our brain needs that. Ideally, look at nature, like look outside, look at the air, go for a walk. We need that, because that recharges the brain. Anyway, one thing also that I want to bring up, maybe we can mention real quick because we are coming up at the top of the hour.How do people, projects, how do we really help the users of those projects to be up to date with what they are doing?[0:43:18.4] DC: Well yeah I mean this is the different patterns that we are talking about. So I think the blog posts help. I like the idea of having blogs that are targeted towards different audiences. I like the idea of having an aggregate here for putting up a big project. I mean obviously Kubernetes is such a huge ecosystem that if you have things like KubeWeekly and I know that there are actually quite a number of things out there that try and do this.But if we can kind of agree on one like KubeWeekly I think is a pretty good one because it is actually run by the CNCF. So it kind of falls within that sort of governance as a model but having an aggregator where you can actually produce content or curate content as it relates to your project that’s helpful, and then office-hours I think is also helpful to Josh’s point. I mean office-hours and SIG hours are very similar things. I mean like office-hours there like how to developers think about what’s happening with the space.This is an opportunity for you as an end user to show up and ask questions, those sorts of patterns I think all are incredibly helpful as a project to figure out there to those things.[0:44:17.8] OP: Yeah, I know summary articles or the sort of TLDRs that Michael mentioned earlier, I think I need more of those things in my life because I do a lot of reading, because I think my brain is a bit weird in that I need to read something about five or six different times from five or six different articles for it to sort of frame in my head.So what I am trying to – like for 2020, I have almost tried to do this, is like if I think somebody knows all about this and it would save me reading those five, six, seven articles and if that person has the time, I try and sort of reach out to them and say, “Listen, have you got 20 minutes or so to explain this topic to me? Can I ask you questions about it?” It just saves me, saves my eyes reading the screen, and it just saves me time. I just need a TLDR summary of a project or a feature or something just so I can know what it is all about in my head and talk fairly sort of confidently about it.If I need to get in front and down under the weeds then there is more reading to kind of do for me maybe the coding on the technical side, but sometimes I can’t figure out what this feature sort of means and what is its use case in the real world and I have to read through lots of articles and sometimes kind of vendor specific ones and they’ve got a different slant than maybe an independent one and trying to marry those bits up my head is a bit hard for me and there is sort of wealth of information.So if you are interested in a topic and there is hundreds of articles and you start reading four or five and they are all slightly different, eventually you figure out that – you are confident and I understand what that product is about but it has taken a long time to get there and it is taken a lot of reading time. So TLDRs is like really work and I think as Josh mentioned before, we have this thing internally where we do bench demos.And that is like a TLDR and a show and tell really quickly, like, “This is what this does and this is why we need to know about it and this is why our customers needs to know about it, the end,” you know? And that’s really, really useful because that just saves a whole bunch of people a whole bunch of time figuring out A, whether they need to know about it and B, actually now understanding that product or feature at the end of the five, 10 minutes which is what they typically are. So they are very useful short snippets of information. Maybe we are back to Twitter.[0:46:37.8] JR: Similar to the idea of giving a demo Olive, you made me think of something and that is that I think one of the ways that I keep up with the space is actually through writing along with reading and I think the notion of like – and this admittedly takes up time and the whole quality of life conversation comes in but using writing to help develop your thoughts and kind of aggregate all of these crazy inputs and try to be somewhat concise, which I know I struggle with, around something I’ve learned.It’s helped me a ton and then that asset kind of becomes reusable to share with other people the thing that you wrote. So for people listening to this I guess maybe a call to action for 2020 if that is your style as well, consider starting to write yourself and becoming a resource, right? Because even if you are new to this space, you’d be amazed at just how writing from your perspective can help other people.[0:47:26.3] DC: I think another one that I actually have been impressed with lately is that a number of consumer companies like people out there like Lyft and companies like that have actually started to surface engineering blogs around how they are using technology and how they are using technology to solve things, which I think, as a service provider, as somebody who is involved in the community of Kubernetes, I find those to be incredibly valuable because I get to actually see how those things are doing.I mean at the same time, I see things like – we talked about KubeCon, which is a convention that they have every year. Obviously the project is large enough to support it but there is actually an incentive if you are a consumer of that project to go and talk about how you are using it, right? It is incentivized in that it is more likely your talk will be accepted if you are a consumer of the product than somebody building it, right? We hear from people building it all the time.I love that idea of incentivizing people who are using this thing get out there and talk about it or share their ideas about it or how they are using it, what problems did it solve for them. That is critical I think.[0:48:31.0] CC: Can I also make a suggestion – is to not so much following on the thread that we are talking about just now but kind of on the general thread of this episode. If you have resources that you do use to keep up with things, stop this recording right now and go and give them a like, give them a follow, give them a thumbs up, show somehow appreciation because what Duffy said just now, he was saying, “Oh it is so helpful when I read a blog post.”But people who are writing, they want to know that. So give them some indication, it counts a lot. It takes a lot of effort to sit down and write something or produce a podcast and if you take any, derive any benefit from it, show appreciation. It motivates people to keep doing it.[0:49:26.4] DC: Yeah, agreed.[0:49:27.9] M: I think that is a great bind maybe to close off this episode because it reiterates that just consuming and keeping up that doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t give back, right? So this is a way of giving back, which is really important to keep that flow and creativeness.[0:49:41.8] CC: I go through a lot of YouTube videos and sometimes I just play one after the other but sometimes, you know, I have been making a point of going back and liking it. Liking the ones that I like – obviously I don’t like everything. I mean things that I don’t like I don’t listen in but you know what I mean? It takes no effort but just so people know, “OK, you did a good job here.” By the way, go to iTunes and rate us. So we will know that you liked it and it will help people find our show, our podcast, and if you are watching us on YouTube, give us a like.[0:50:16.1] DC: All right, well unless anybody has any final thoughts, that is what we wanted to cover this session. So thank you all very, very much and I look forward to seeing you next week.[0:50:25.3] M: Bye-bye.[0:50:26.3] CC: Thank you so much.[0:50:27.4] OP: Bye.[0:50:28.1] JR: Bye.[END OF EPISODE][0:50:28.7] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing.[END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

christmas amazon live world google education state speaking zoom challenges twitch reddit projects patterns slack helpful quotes lyft cognitive incentives last week keeping up duffy operational vmware liking kubernetes sig rel tldr infosec professional growth ci cd json honeycomb cloud native tooling ipv6 feedly mso ctf openstack ipv4 pdo cncf release notes kubecon jq crd mesos sigs ctfs brendan burns michael yeah chris short michael well dcyou crds michael okay dc it michael hey announcer thank michael for m yeah announcer welcome cindy sridharan dc all dc well

Cloud Native Apps (Ep 16)

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 10, 2020 41:33

Do you know what cloud native apps are? Well, we don’t really either, but today we’re on a mission to find out! This episode is an exciting one, where we bring all of our different understandings of what cloud native apps are to the table. The topic is so interesting and diverse and can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. The term ‘cloud native app’ is not very concrete, which allows for this open interpretation. We begin by discussing what we understand cloud native apps to be. We see that while we all have similar definitions, there are still many differences in how we interpret this term. These different interpretations unlock some other important questions that we also delve into. Tied into cloud native apps is another topic we cover today – monoliths. This is a term that is used frequently but not very well understood and defined. We unpack some of the pros and cons of monoliths as well as the differences between monoliths and microservices. Finally, we discuss some principles of cloud native apps and how having these umbrella terms can be useful in defining whether an app is a cloud native one or not. These are complex ideas and we are only at the tip of the iceberg. We hope you join us on this journey as we dive into cloud native apps! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Josh Rosso Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: What cloud native applications mean to Carlisia, Bryan, Josh, and Nicholas. Portability is a big factor of cloud native apps. Cloud native applications can modify their infrastructure needs through API calls. Cloud native applications can work well with continuous delivery/deployment systems. A component of cloud native applications is that they can modify the cloud. An application should be thought of as multiple processes that interact and link together. It is possible resources will begin to be requested on-demand in cloud native apps. An explanation of the commonly used term ‘monolith.’ Even as recently as five years ago, monoliths were still commonly used. The differences between a microservice approach and a monolith approach. The microservice approach requires thinking about the interface at the start, making it harder. Some of the instances when using a monolith is the logical choice for an app. A major problem with monoliths is that as functionality grows, so too does complexity. Some other benefits and disadvantages of monolith apps. In the long run, separating apps into microservices gives a greater range of flexibility. A monolith can be a cloud native application as well. Clarification on why Brian uses the term ‘microservices’ rather than cloud native. ‘Cloud native’ is an umbrella term and a set of principles rather than a strict definition. If it can run confidently on someone else’s computer, it is likely a cloud native application. Applying cloud native principles when building an app from scratch makes it simpler. It is difficult to adapt a monolith app into one which uses cloud native principles. The applications which could never be adapted to use cloud native principles. A checklist of the key attributes of cloud native applications. Cloud native principles are flexible and can be adapted to the context. It is the responsibility of thought leaders to bring cloud native thinking into the mainstream. Kubernetes has the potential to allow us to see our data centers differently. Quotes: “An application could be made up of multiple processes.” — @joshrosso [0:14:43] “A monolith is simply an application or a single process that is running both the UI, the front-end code and the code that fetches the state from a data store, whether that be disk or database.” — @joshrosso [0:16:36] “Separating your app is actually smarter than the long run because what it gives you is the flexibility to mix and match.” — @bryanl [0:22:10] “A cloud native application isn’t a thing. It is a set of principles that you can use to guide yourself to running apps in cloud environments.” — @bryanl [0:26:13] “All of these things that we are talking about sound daunting. But it is better that we can have these conversations and talk about things that don’t work rather than not knowing what to talk about in general.” — @bryanl [0:39:30] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/en IBM — https://www.ibm.com/ VWware — https://www.vmware.com/ The New Stack — https://thenewstack.io/ 10 Key Attributes of Cloud-Native Applications — https://thenewstack.io/10-key-attributes-of-cloud- native-applications/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Linux — https://www.linux.org/ Transcript: EPISODE 16 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.4] NL: Hello and welcome back, my name is Nicholas Lane. This time, we’ll be diving into what it’s all about. Cloud native applications. Joining me this week are Brian Liles. [0:00:53.2] BL: Hi. [0:00:54.3] NL: Carlisia Campos. [0:00:55.6] CC: Hi everybody, glad to be here. [0:00:57.6] NL: And Josh Rosso. [0:00:58.6] JR: Hey everyone. [0:01:00.0] NL: How’s it going everyone? [0:01:01.3] JR: It’s been a great week so far. I’m just happy that I have a good job and able to do things that make me feel whole. [0:01:08.8] NL: That’s awesome, wow. [0:01:10.0] BL: Yeah, I’ve been having a good week as well in doing a bit of some fun stuff after work. Like my soon to be in-laws are in town so I’ve been visiting with them and that’s been really fun. Cloud native applications, what does that mean to you all? Because I think that’s an interesting topic. [0:01:25.0] CC: Definitely not a monolith. I think if you have a monolith running on the clouds, even if you start it out that way, I wouldn’t say it’s a cloud native app, I always think of containerized applications and if you’re using the container system then it’s usually because you want to have a smaller systems in more of them, that sort of thing. Also, when I think of cloud native applications, I think that they were developed the whole strategy of the development in the whole strategy of deploying and shipping has been designed from scratch to put on the cloud system. [0:02:05.6] JR: I think of it as applications that were designed to run in container. And I also think about things like services, like micro services or macro services to know what you want to call them that we have multiple applications that are made to talk not just with themselves but with other apps and they deliver a bigger functionality through their coordination. Then what I also want to go cloud native apps, I think of apps that we are moving to the cloud, that’s a big topic in itself but applications that we run in the cloud. All of our new fancy services and our SaaS offerings, a lot of these are cloud native apps. But then on the other side, I think about applications, they are cloud native are tolerant to failure and on the other side, can actually talk about sells of their health and who they’re talking to. [0:02:54.8] CC: Gets very complicated. [0:02:56.6] BL: Yeah. That was the side of that I haven’t thought about. [0:03:00.7] JR: Actually, it’s for me that always come to mind are obviously portability, right? Wherever you're running this application, it can run somewhat consistently, be it on different clouds or even a lot of people, you know, are running their own cloud which is basically their on-prem cloud, right? That application being able to move across any of those places and often times, containerization is one of the mechanisms we use to do that, right? Which is what we all stated. Then I guess the other thing too is like, this whole cloud ecosystem, be it a cloud provider or your own personal – are often times very API driven, right? So, the applications, maybe being able to take advantage of some of those API’s should they need to. Be it for scaling purposes otherwise. It’s really interesting model. [0:03:43.2] NL: It’s interesting, for me like this question because so far, everyone is getting similar but also different answers. And for me, I’m going to give a silent answer to me, a cloud native application is a lot of things we said like portable. I think of micro services when II] think of a cloud native application. But it’s also an application that can modify the infrastructure it needs via API calls, right? If your application needs a service or needs a networking connection, it can – the application itself can manifest that via cloud offering, right? That’s what I always thought of as a cloud native application, right? If you need like a database, the application can reach out to like AWS RDS and spin up the database and that was an aspect of I always found very fascinating with cloud native applications, it isn’t necessarily the definition but for me, that’s the part that I was really focused on I think is quite interesting. [0:04:32.9] BL: Also, CI/CD cloud native apps are made to work well with our CI, our seamless integration and our continuous delivery/deployment systems as well, that’s like another very important aspect of cloud native applications. We should be able to deploy them to production without typing anything in. should be some kind of automated process. [0:04:56.4] NL: Yeah, that is for sure. Carlisia, you mentioned something that I think it’s good for us to talk about a little bit which is terminology. I keeping coming back to that. You mentioned monolithic apps, what are monoliths then? [0:05:09.0] CC: I am so hung up on what you just said, can we table that for a few minutes? You said cloud native applications for you is an application that can interact with the infrastructure and maybe for example, is the database. I wonder if you have an example or if you could expand on that, I want to – if everybody agrees with that, I’m not clear on what that even is. Because as a developer which is always my point of view is what I know. It’s a lot of responsibility for the application to have. And for example, when I would think cloud native and I’m thinking now, maybe I’m going off on a tangent here. But we have Kubernetes, isn’t that what Kubernetes is supposed to do to glue it all together? So, the application only needs to know what it needs to do. But spinning up an all tight system is not one of the things it would need to do? [0:05:57.3] BL: Sure, actually, I was going to use Kubernetes as my example for cloud native application. Because Kubernetes is what it is, an app, right? It can modify the cloud that it’s running. And so, if you have Kubernetes running in AWS, you can create ELB’s, elastic load balancers. It can create new nodes. It can create new databases if you need, as I mentioned. Kubernetes itself is my example like a cloud native application. I should say that that’s a good callout. My example of what a cloud native application isn’t necessarily like that’s a rule. All cloud native applications have to modify the cloud in which they exist in. It’s more that they can modify. That is a component of a cloud native application. Kubernetes is being an example there. I don’t know, I guess things like operators inside of Kubernetes like the rook operator will create storage for you when you spin up like root create a Ceph cluster, it will also spin up like the ELB’s behind it or at least I believe it does. Or that kind of functionality. [0:06:57.2] CC: I can see what you're saying because for example, if I choose to use the storage inside something like Kubernetes, then you will be required of my app to call an SDK and connect so that their storage somehow. So, in that sense I guess, you are using your app. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but that’s how the connection is created, right? You just request – but you’re not necessarily saying I want this thing specific, you just say I want this sort of thing like which has their storage and then you define that elsewhere. So, your applications don’t need to know details bit definitely needs to say, I need this. I’m talking about again, when your data storage is running on top of Kubernetes and not outside of it. [0:07:46.4] BL: Yeah. [0:07:47.3] NL: That brings up an interesting part of this whole term cloud native app. Because it’s like everything else in the space, our terms are not super concrete and an interesting piece about this is that an application – does an application half the map one to one with the running process? What is an application? [0:08:06.1] NL: That is interesting because it could say that a serverless app or a serverless rule, whatever serverless really is, I guess we can get into that in another episode. Are those cloud native applications? They’re not just running anywhere. [0:08:19.8] JR: I will punt on that because I know my boundaries are and that definitely not in my boundaries. But the reason I bring this up is because a little while ago, it’s probably year ago in a Kubernetes [inaudible 0:08:32] apps, we actually have a conversation about what an application was. And the consensus from the community and from the group members was that actually, an application could be made up of multiple processes. So, let’s say you were building this large SaaS service and because you’re selling dog food online, your application could be your dog food application. But you have inventory management. You have a front end, maybe you haven’t had service, you have a shipping manager and things like that. Sales tax calculator. Are those all applications? Or is it one application? The piece about cloud application are cloud native applications because what we found in Kubernetes is that the way we’re thinking about applications is, an application is multiple processes, that can be linked together and we can tell the whole story of how all those interact and working. Just something else, another way to think about this. [0:09:23.5] NL: Yeah, that is interesting, I never really considered that before but that makes a lot of sense. Particularly with the rise of things like GRPC and the ability to send dedicated messages to are like well codified messages too different processes. That gives rise to things like this multi-tenant process as an application. [0:09:41.8] BL: Right. But going back to your idea around cloud native applications being able to commandeer the resources that they’re needing. That’s something that we do see. We see it within Kubernetes right now. I’ll give you above and beyond the example that you gave is that whenever you create a staple set. And Kubernetes, the operator behind staple set that actually goes and provisions of PPC for you, you requested a resource and whatever you change the number of instances from one to like five, guess what? you get four more PPC’s. Just think about it, that is actually something that is happening, it’s a little transparent with people. but I can see to the point of we’re just requesting a new resource and if we are using cloud services to watch our other things, or our cloud native services to watch our applications, I could see us asking for this on demand or even a service like a database or some other type of queuing thing on demand. [0:10:39.2] CC: When I hear things like this, I think, “ Wow, it sounds very complicated. "But then I start to think about it and I think it’s really neat because it is complicated but the alternative would have been way more complicated. I mean, we can talk about, this is sort of how it’s done now. I mean, it’s really hard to go into details on a one-hour episode. We can’t cover the how it’s done or make conceptually, we are sort of throwing a lot of words out there sort of conceptualize it but we can also try to talk about it in a conceptual way how it is done in a non-cloud native world. [0:11:15.3] NL: Yeah, I kind of want to get back to the question I posed before, what is a monolithic app, what is a none cloud native app? And not all none cloud native apps are monoliths but this is actually something that I’ve heard a lot and I’ll be honest. I have an idea of what a monolithic app is but I think I don’t have a very good grasp of it. We kind of talked a bit about like what a cloud native app is, what is a none cloud native or what came before a cloud native applications. What is a monolith? [0:11:39.8] CC: I’m personally not a big fan of monoliths. Of course, I worked with them but once micro services started becoming common and started developing in that mode. I am much more of a fan of breaking things down for so many different reasons. It is a controversial topic for sure. But to go back to your question, the monolith is basically, you have an app, sort of goes to what Brian was saying, it’s like, what is an app? If you think of an app and like one thing, Amazon is an app, right? It’s an app that we use to buy things as consumers. And you know, the other part is the cloud. But let’s look at it like it’s an app that we use to buy things as consumers, we know it’s broken down to so many different services. There is the checkout service, there is the cart service. I mean, I’m imagining, these I can imagine thought, the small services that compose that one Amazon app. If it was a monolith, those services that you know – those things are different systems that are talking together. The whole thing would be on one code base. It would reside in same code base or it will be deployed together. It will be shipped together. If you make a change in one place and you needed to deploy that, you have to deploy the whole thing together. You might have teams that are working on separate aspects but they’re working against the same code base. And maybe because of that, that will lend itself to teams not really specializing on separate aspects because everything is together so you might make one change of the impacts another place and then you have to know that part as well. So, there is a lot less specialization and separation of teams as well. [0:13:32.3] BL: Maybe to give an example of my experience and I think it aligns with a lot of the details Carlisia just went over. Even taking five years back, my experience at least was, we’d write up a ticket and we’d ask somebody to make a server space for us, maybe run [inaudible 0:13:44] on it, right? We’d write all this Java code and we’d package it into these things that run on a JDL somewhere, right? We would deploy this whole big application you know?Let’s call it that dog food app, right? It would have maybe even like a state layer and have the web server layer, maybe have all these different pieces all running together, this big code base as Carlisia put it. And we’d deploy it, you know, that process took a lot of time and was very consuming especially when we needed to change stuff, we didn’t have all these modern API’s and this kind of decoupled applications, right? But then, over time, you know, we started learning more and more about the notion of isolating each of these pieces or layers. So that we could have the web server, isolated in its how, put some site container or a unit and then the state layer and the other layers even isolated, you know, the micro service approach more or less. And then we were able to scale independently and that was really awesome. so we saw a lot of the gains in that respect. We basically moved our complexity to other areas, we took our complexity that you need to all happen in the same memory space and we moved a lot of it into the network with this new protocols of that different services talk to one another. It’s been an interesting thing kind of seeing the monolith approach and the micro service approach and how a lot of these micro service apps are in my opinion a lot more like cloud native aligned, if that makes sense? Just seeing how the complexity shows around in that regard. [0:15:05.8] CC: Let me just say one more thing because it’s actually the biggest aspect of micro services that I like the most in comparison, you know, the aspect of monolith that I hate the most and that I don’t hate it, I appreciate the least, let’s put it that way. Is that, when you have a monolith, it is so easy because design is hard so it’s so easy to couple different parts of your app with other parts of your app and have couples cold and coupled functionality. When you break this into micro services, that is impossible. Because it was working with separate code bases. If you force to think what is your interface, you’re always thinking about the interface and what people need to consume from you, your interface is the only way into your app, into your system. I really like the aspect that it forces you to think about your API. And people will argue, “Well you can’t put the same amount of effort into that if you have a monolith.” Absolutely, but in reality, I don’t see it. And like Josh was saying, it is not a walk on the park, but I’d much rather deal with those issues, those complexities that Microsoft has create then the challenges of running a big – I’m talking about big monoliths, right? Not something trivial. [0:16:29.8] JR: I will come to distil this about how I look at monoliths and how it fits into this conversation. A monolith is simply an application that is or a single process in this case that is running both the UI, the front-end code and the code that fetches the state from a data store, whether that be disk or database. That is what a monolith is. The reasons people use monoliths are many but I can actually think of some very good reasons. If you have code reuse and let’s say you have a website and you were trying to – you have farms and you want to be able to use those form libraries or you have data access and you want to be able to reuse that data access code, a monolith is great. The problem with monoliths is as functionality becomes larger, complexity becomes larger and not at the same rate. I’m not going to say that it is not linear but it’s not quite exponential. Maybe it logs into or something like that. But the problem is that at a certain point, you’re going to have so much functionality, you’re not going to be able to put it inside of one process, see Rails. Rails is actually a great example of this where we run into the issues where we put so much application into a rail source directory and we try to run it and we basically run up with these huge processes. And we split them up. But what we found is that we could actually split out the front-end code to one process. We could spit out the middle ware, see multiple process in the middle, the data access layer to another process and we could use those, we could actually take advantage of multiple CPU cores or multiple computers. The problem with this is that with splitting this out, it’s complexity. So, what if you have a [inaudible 0:18:15] is, what I’m trying to say here in a very long way is that monoliths have their places. As a matter of fact, the encourage, at least I still encourage people to start with the monolith. Put everything in one place. Whenever it gets too big, you spit it out. But in a cloud native world, because we’re trying to take advantage of containers, we’re trying to take advantage of cords on CPUs, we’re trying to take advantage of multiple computers to do that in the most efficient way, you want to split your application up into smaller pieces so that your front end versus your middle layer, versus your data access layer versus your data layer itself can run on as many computers and as many cores as possible. Therefore, spreading thee risk and spreading the usage because everything should be faster. [0:19:00.1] NL: Awesome. That is some great insight into monolithic apps and also the benefit and pros and cons of them. Like something I didn’t have before. Because I’ve only ever heard of a praise monolithic apps and then it’s like said in hushed tones or what the swear word directly after it. And so, it’s interesting to hear the concept of it being that each way you deploy your application is complex but there are different tradeoffs, right? It’s the idea that I was like, “Why don’t you want to turn your monolithic into micro services? Well, there’s so much more overhead, so much more yak shaving you have to do to get there to take advantage of micro services. That was awesome, thank you so much for that insight. [0:19:39.2] CC: I wanted to reiterate a couple aspects of what Brian said and Josh said in regards to that. One huge advantage, I mean, your application needs to be substantial enough that you feel like you need to do that, you’re going to get some advantage from it. when you had that point, and you do that, you’re clearing to services like Josh was saying and Brian was saying, you have the ability to increase your capabilities, your process capabilities based on one aspect of the system that needs it. So, you have something that requires very low processing, you run that service with certain level of capabilities. And something that like your orders process or your orders micro service. You increase the processing power for that much more than some other part. When it comes to running this in the cloud native world, I think this is more an infrastructure aspect. But my understanding is that you can automate all of that, you can determine, “Okay, I have analyzed my requirements based on history and what I need is stacks. So, I’m going to say tell the cloud native infrastructure, this is what I need in the automation will take care of bringing the system up to that if anything happens.” We are always going to be healing your system in an automated way and this is something that I don’t think gets talked about enough like we say, we talk about, “Oh things split up this way and they’re run this way but in an automated mode that these makes all of the difference. [0:21:15.4] NL: Yeah that makes a lot of sense actually. So, basically analytic apps don’t give us the benefit of automation or automated deployment versus like micro services kind of give us and cloud native applications give us the rise. [0:21:28.2] BL: Yes, and think about this, whenever you have five micro services delivering your applications functionality and you need to upgrade the front-end code for the HTML, whatever generates the HTML. You can actually replace that piece or replace that piece and that not bring your whole application down. And even better yet, you can replace that piece one at a time or two at a time, still have the majority of your applications still running and maybe your users won’t even know at all. So, let’s say you have a monolith and you are running multiple versions of this monoliths. When you take that whole application down, you literally take the whole application down not only do you lose front-end capacity, you also lose back-end capacity as well. So, separating your app is actually smarter than the long run because what it gives you is the flexibility to mix and match and you could actually scale the front end at a different level than you did at the backend. And that is actually super important in [inaudible 0:22:22] land and actually Python land and .NET land if you’re writing monoliths. You have to scale at the level of your monolith and if you can scale that then you are having wasted resources. So smaller micro services, smaller cloud native apps makes the run of containers, actually will use less resources. [0:22:41.4] JR: I have an interesting question for us all. So obviously a lot of cloud native applications usually maybe look like these micro services we’re describing, can a monolith be a cloud native application as well? [0:22:54.4] BL: Yes, it can. [0:22:55.1] JR: Cool. [0:22:55.6] NL: Yeah, I think so. As long as the – basically monolith can be deployed in the mechanism that we described like CSAD or can take advantage of the cloud. I believe the monolith can be a cloud native application, sure. [0:23:08.8] CC: There are monolith – because I am glad you brought that up because I was going to bring that up because I hear Brian using the micro services in cloud native apps interchangeably and it makes it really hard for me to follow, “Okay, so what is not cloud native application or what is not a cloud native service and what is not a cloud native monolith?” So, to start this thread with the question that Josh just asked, which also became my question: if I have a monolith app running a cloud provider is that a cloud native app? If it is not what piece of puzzle needs to exists for that to be considered a cloud native app? And then the follow up question I am going to throw it out there already is why do we care? What is the big deal if it is or if it isn’t? [0:23:55.1] BL: Wow, okay. Well let’s see. Let’s unpack this. I have been using micro service and cloud native interchangeably probably not to the best effect. But let me clear up something here about cloud native versus micro services. Cloud native is a big term and it goes further than an application itself. It is not only the application. It is also the environment of the application can run in. It is the process that we use to get the application to production. So, monoliths can be cloud native apps. We can run them through CI/CD. They can run in containers. They can take advantage of their environment. We can scale them independently. but we use micro services instead this becomes easier because our surface area is smaller. So, what I want to do is not use that term like this. Cloud native applications is an umbrella term but I will never actually say cloud native application. I always say a micro service and the reason why I will say the micro service is because it is much more accurate description of that process that is running. Cloud native applications is more of the umbrella. [0:25:02.0] JR: It is really interesting because a lot of the times that we are working with customers when they go out and introduce them to Kubernetes, we are often times asked, “How do I make my application cloud native?” To what you are talking about Brian and to your question Carlisia, I feel like a lot of times people are a little bit confused about it because sometimes they are actually asking us, “How do I break this legacy app into smaller micro services,” right? But sometimes they are actually asking like, “How do I make it more cloud native?” And usually our guidance or the things that we are working with them on is exactly that, right? It is like getting that application container so we can get it portable whether it is a monolith or a micro service, right? We are containerizing it. We are making it more portable. We are maybe helping them out with health checks that the infrastructure environment that they are running in can tap into it and know the health of that application whether it’s to restart it with Kubernetes as an example. We are going through and helping them understand those principles that I think fall more into the umbrella of cloud native like you are saying Brian if I am following you correctly and helping them kind of enhance their application. But it doesn’t necessarily mean splitting it apart, right? It doesn’t mean running it in smaller services. It just means following these more cloud native principles. It is hard talk up so that was continuing to say cloud native right? [0:26:10.5] BL: So that is actually a good way of putting it. A cloud native application isn’t a thing. It is a set of principles that you can use to guide yourself to running apps in cloud environments. And it is interesting. When I say cloud environments I am not even really particularly talking about Kubernetes or any type of scheduler. I am just talking about we are running apps on other people’s computers in the cloud this is what we should think about and it goes through those principles. Where we use CI/CD, storage maybe most likely will be ephemeral. Actually, you know what? That whole process, that whole virtual machine that we are running on that is ephemeral too, everything will go away. So, cloud native applications is basically a theory that allows us to be strategic about running applications with other people’s computers and storage and networking and compute may go away. So, we do this at this way, this is how to get our 5-9’s or 4-9’s above time because we can actually do this. [0:27:07.0] NL: That is actually a great point. The cloud native application is one that can confidently run on somebody else’s computer. That is a good stake in the ground. [0:27:15.9] BL: I stand behind that and I like the way that you put it. I am going to steal that and say I made it up. [0:27:20.2] NL: Yeah, go ahead. We have been talking about monoliths and cloud native applications. I am curious, since you all are developers, what is your experience writing cloud native applications? [0:27:31.2] JR: I guess for green field projects where we are starting from scratch and we are kind of building this thing, it is a really pleasant experience because a lot of things are sort of done for us. We just need to know how to interact with the API or the contract to get the things we need. So that is kind of my blanket statement. I am not trying to say it is easy, I am just saying like it has become quite convenient in a lot of respects when adopting these cloud native principles. Like the idea that I have a docker file and I build this container and now I am running this app that I am writing code for all over the place, it’s become such a more pleasant experience and at least in my experience years and years ago with like dropping things into the tomcat instances running all over the place, right? But I guess what’s also been interesting is it’s been a bit hard to convert older applications into the cloud native space, right? Because I think the point Carlisia had started with around the idea of all the code being in one place, you know it is a massive undertaking to understand how some of these older applications work. Again, not saying that all older applications are only monoliths. But my experience has been that they generally are. Their bigger code base is hard to understand how they work and where to modify things without breaking other things, right? When you go and you say, “All right, let’s adopt some cloud native principles on this app that has been running on the mainframe for decades” right? That is a pretty hard thing to do but again, green field projects I found it to be pretty convenient. [0:28:51.6] CC: It is actually easy, Josh. You just rewrite it. [0:28:54.0] JR: Totally yes. That is always a piece of cake. ,[0:28:56.9] BL: You usually write it in Go and then it is cloud native. That is actually the secret to cloud native apps. You write it in Go, you install it, you deploy in Kubernetes, mission accomplish, cloud native to you. [0:29:07.8] CC: Anything written in Go is cloud native. We are declaring that here, you heard that here first. [0:29:13.4] JR: That is a great question, it’s like how do we get there? That is a hard question and not one that I would basically just wave a magic set of words over and say that we are there. But what I would say is that as we start thinking of moving applications to cloud native first, we need to identify applications that cannot be called updated and I could actually give you some. Your Windows 2003 applications and yes, I do know some of you are running 2003 still. Those are not cloud native and they never will be and the problem is that you won’t be able to run them in a containerized environment. Microsoft says stop using 2003, you should stop using it. Other applications that won’t be cloud native are applications that require a certain level of machine or server access. We have been able to attract GPU’s. But if you’re working on the IO level like you are actually looking at IO or if you are looking at hardware interrupts. Or you are looking at anything like that, that application will never be cloud native. Because there is no way that we can in a shared environment, which most likely your application will be running in, in the cloud. There is no way that first of all that the hypervisor that is actually running your virtual machine wants to give you that process or give you that access or that is not being shared from one to 200 other processes on that server. So, applications that want low level access or have real time, you don’t want to run those in the cloud. They cannot be cloud native. That still means a lot of applications can be. [0:30:44.7] CC: So, I keep thinking of if I own a tech stack and I every once in a while stop and evaluate, if I am squeezing as most tech as I can out of my system? Meaning am I using the best technology out there to the extent that fits my needs? If I am that kind of person and I don’t know – it’s like when I say I am a decision maker and even if I was a tech person like I am also a tech person, I still would not have – unless I am one of the architects. And sometimes even the architects don’t have an entire vision. I mean they have to talk to other architects who have a greater vision of the whole system because systems that can be so big. But at any rate, if I am an architect or I own the tech stack one way or another, my question is, is my system a cloud native system? Is my app a cloud native app? I am not even sure that we clarified enough for people to answer that. I mean it is so complicated, maybe we did hopefully we helped a little bit. So basically, this will be my question, how do I know if I am there or not? Because my next step would be well if I am not there then what am I missing? Let me look into it and see if the cost benefit is worth it. But if I don’t know what is missing, what do I look at? How do I evaluate? How do I evaluate if I am there and if I am not, what do I need to do? So, we talked about this a little bit on episode one, which we talked about cloud native like what is cloud native in general and now we are talking about apps. And so, you know, there should be a checklist of things that cloud native should at least have these sets of things. Like the 12-factor app, what do you need to have to be considered 12 factor app. We should have a checklist, 12 factor app I think having that checklist is being part of micro-service in the cloud native app. But I think there needs to be more. I just wish we would have that not that we need to come up with that list now but something to think about. Someone should do it, you know? [0:32:57.5] JR: Yeah, it would be cool. [0:32:58.0] CC: Is it reasonable or now to want to have that checklist? [0:33:00.6] BL: So, there is, there is that checklist that exist I know that Red Hat has one. I know that IBM has one. I would guess VMware has one on one of our web pages. Now the problem is they’re all different. What I do and this is me trying to be fair here. The New Stack basically they talk about things that are happening in the cloud and tech. If you search for The New Stack in cloud native application, there is a 10-bullet list. That is what I send to people now. The reason I send that one rather than any vendor is because a vendor is trying to sell you something. They are trying to sell you their vision of cloud native where they excel and they will give you products that help you with that part like CI/CD, “oh we have a product for that.” I like The New Stack list and actually, I Googled it while you were talking Carlisia because I wanted it to bring it up. So, I will just go through the titles of this list and we’ll make sure that we make this link available. So, there is 10 Key Attributes of Cloud-Native Applications. Package as light weight to containers. Developed with best-of-breed languages and frameworks, you know that doesn’t mean much but that is how nebulous this is. Designed as loosely coupled microservices. Centered around API’s for interaction and collaboration. Architected with clean separation of stateless and stateful services. Isolated from server and operating system dependencies. Deployed on self-service elastic cloud infrastructure. Managed through agile DevOps processes. Automated capabilities. And the last one, Defined policy-driven resource allocation. And as you see, those are all very much up for interpretation or implementations. So, a cloud native app from my point of view tries to target most of these items and has an opinion on most of these items. So, a cloud native app isn’t just one thing. It is a mindset that I am running. Like I said before, I am running my software on other people’s computers, how can I best do this.? [0:34:58.1] CC: I added the link to our shownotes. When I look at this list, I don’t see observability. That word is not there. Does it fall under one of those points because observability is another new-ish term that seems to be in parcel of cloud native? Correct me here, people. [0:35:19.1] JR: I am. Actually, the eighth item, ‘Manage through agile DevOps processes,’ is actually – they don’t talk about monitoring observability. But for an application for a person who is not developing application, so whether you have a dev ops team or you have an SRE practice, you are going to have to be able to communicate the status and the application whether it be through metrics logs or metrics logs or whatever the other one is. I am thinking – traces. So that is actually I think is baked in it is just not called out. So, to get the proper DevOps you would need some observability that is how you get that status when you have a problem. [0:35:57.9] CC: So, this is how obscure these things can be. I just want to point this out. It is so frustrating, so literally we have item eight, which Brian has been, as the main developer so he is super knowledgeable. He can look at that and know what it means. But I look at that and the words log metrics, observability none of these words are there and yet Brian knew that that is what it means that that is what he meant. And I don’t disagree with him. I can see it now but why does it have to be so obscure? [0:36:29.7] JR: I think a big thing to consider too is like it very much lands on spectrum, right? Like something you would ask Carlisia is how do I qualify if my app is cloud native or what do I need to do? And you know a lot of people in my experience are just adopting parts of this list and that’s totally fine. You know worrying about whether you fully qualify as a cloud native app since we have talked about it as more of a set of principles is something – I don’t know if there is too too much value in worrying about whether you can block that label onto your app as much as it is, “Oh I can see our organization our applications having these problems.” Like lacking portability when we move them across providers or going back to observability, not being able to know what is going on inside of the application and where the network packets are headed and they switched to being asked we’re late to see these happening. And as those problems come on, really looking at and adopting these principles where it is appropriate. Sometimes it might not be with the engineering efforts without them, one of the more cloud native principles. You know you just have to pick and choose what is most valuable to you. [0:37:26.7] BL: Yes, and actually this is what we should be doing as experts, as thought-leaders, as industry movers and shakers. Our job is to make this easier for people coming behind us. At one time, it was hard to even start an application or start your operating system. Remember when we had to load AN1, you know? Remember we had to do that back in the day on our basic, on our Comado64’s or Apple or Apple2. Now you turn your computer on and it comes with instantly. We click on application and it works. We need to actually bring this whole cloud movement to that point where things like if you include these libraries and you code with these API’s you get automatic observability. And I am saying that with air quotes but you get the ability to have this thing to monitor it in some fashion. If you use this practice and you have this stack, CI/CD should be super simple for you and we are just not quite there yet. And that is why the industry is definitely rotating around this and that is why there has been a lot of buzz around cloud native and Kubernetes is because people are looking at this to actually solve a lot of these problems that we’ve had. Because they just haven’t been solvable because everybody stacks are too different. But this one though, the reason Linux is I think ultimately successful is because it allowed us to do things and all of these Linux things we liked and it worked on all sorts of computers. And it got that mindset behind it behind companies. Kubernetes could also do this. It allows us to think about our data centers as potentially one big computer or fewer computers that allows us to make sure things are running. And once we have this, now we can develop new tools that will help us with our observability, with our getting software into production and upgraded and where we need it. [0:39:17.1] NL: Awesome. So, on that, we are going to have to wrap up for this week. Let’s go ahead and do a round of closing thoughts. [0:39:22.7] JR: I don’t know if I have any closing thoughts. But it was a pleasure talking about cloud native applications with you all. Thanks. [0:39:28.1] BL: Yeah, I have one thought is that all of these things that we are talking about it sounds kind of daunting. But it is better that we can have these conversations and talk about things that don’t work rather than not knowing what to talk about in general. So this is a journey for us and I hope you come for more of our journey. [0:39:46.3] CC: First I was going to follow up on Josh and say I am thoughtless. But now I want to fill up on Brian’s and say, no I have no opinions. It is very much what Brian said for me, the bridging of what we can do using cloud native infrastructure in what we read about it and what we hear about it like for people who are not actually doing it is so hard to connect one with the other. I hope by being here and asking questions and answering questions and hopefully people will also be very interactive with us. And ask us to talk about things they want to know that we all try to connect it too little by little. I am not saying it is rocket science and nobody can understand it. I am just saying for some people who don’t have multi background experience, they might have big gaps. [0:40:38.7] NL: And that is for sure. This was a very useful episode for me. I am glad to know that everybody else is just as confused at what cloud native applications actually mean. So that was awesome. It was a very informative episode for me and I had a lot of fun doing it. So, thank you all for having me. Thank you for joining us on this week of the Kublets Podcast. And I just want to wish our friend Brian a very happy birthday. Bye you all. [0:41:03.2] CC: Happy birthday Brian. [0:41:04.7] BL: Ahhhh. [0:41:05.9] NL: All right, bye everyone. [END OF EPISODE] [0:41:07.5] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Network (Ep 15)

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 3, 2020 53:25

There are two words that get the blame more often than not when a problem cannot be rooted: the network! Today, along with special guest, Scott Lowe, we try to dig into what the network actually means. We discover, through our discussion that the network is, in fact, a distributed system. This means that each component of the network has a degree of independence and the complexity of them makes it difficult to understand the true state of the network. We also look at some of the fascinating parallels between networks and other systems, such as the configuration patterns for distributed systems. A large portion of the show deals with infrastructure and networks, but we also look at how developers understand networks. In a changing space, despite self-service becoming more common, there is still generally a poor understanding of networks from the developers’ vantage point. We also cover other network-related topics, such as the future of the network engineer’s role, transferability of their skills and other similarities between network problem-solving and development problem-solving. Tune in today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Josh Rosso Key Points From This Episode: • The network is often confused with the server or other elements when there is a problem.• People forget that the network is a distributed system, which has independent routers.• The distributed pieces that make up a network could be standalone computers.• The parallels between routing protocols and configuration patterns for distributed systems.• There is not a model for eventually achieving consistent networks, particularly if they are old.• Most routing patterns have a time-sensitive mechanism where traffic can be re-dispersed.• Understanding a network is a distributed system gives insights into other ones, like Kubernetes.• Even from a developers’ perspective, there is a limited understanding of the network.• There are many overlaps between developers and infrastructural thinking about systems.• How can network engineers apply their skills across different systems?• As the future changes, understanding the systems and theories is crucial for network engineers.• There is a chasm between networking and development.• The same ‘primitive’ tools are still being used for software application layers.• An explanation of CSMACD, collisions and their applicability. • Examples of cloud native applications where the network does not work at all.• How Spanning Tree works and the problems that it solves.• The relationship between software-defined networking and the adoption of cloud native technologies.• Software-defined networking increases the ability to self-service.• With self-service on-prem solutions, there is still not a great deal of self-service. Quotes: “In reality, what we have are 10 or hundreds of devices with the state of the network as a system, distributed in little bitty pieces across all of these devices.” — @scott_lowe [0:03:11] “If you understand how a network is a distributed system and how these theories apply to a network, then you can extrapolate those concepts and apply them to something like Kubernetes or other distributed systems.” — @scott_lowe [0:14:05] “A lot of these software defined networking concepts are still seeing use in the modern clouds these days” — @scott_lowe [0:44:38] “The problems that we are trying to solve in networking are not different than the problems that you are trying to solve in applications.” — @mauilion [0:51:55] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Scott Lowe on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottslowe/ Scott Lowe’s blog — https://blog.scottlowe.org/ Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ Redis — https://redis.io/ Raft — https://raft.github.io/ Packet Pushers — https://packetpushers.net/ AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/ Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/ Martin Casado — http://yuba.stanford.edu/~casado/ Transcript: EPISODE 15 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.4] DC: Good afternoon everybody. In this episode, we’re going to talk about the network. My name is Duffie Cooley and I’ll be the lead of this episode and with me, I have Nick. [0:00:49.0] NL: Hey, what’s up everyone. [0:00:51.5] DC: And Josh. [0:00:52.5] JS: Hi. [0:00:53.6] DC: And Mr. Scott Lowe joining us as a guest speaker. [0:00:56.2] SL: Hey everyone. [0:00:57.6] DC: Welcome, Scott. [0:00:58.6] SL: Thank you. [0:01:00.5] DC: In this discussion, we’re going to try and stay away, like we do always, we’re going to try and stay away from particular products or solutions that are related to the problem. The goal of it is to really kind of dig in to like what the network means when we refer to it as it relates to like cloud native applications or just application design in general. One of the things that I’ve noticed over time and I’m curious, what you all think but like, one of the things I’ve done over time is that people are kind of the mind that if it can’t root cause a particular issue that they run into, they’re like, “That was the network.” Have you all seen that kind of stuff out there? [0:01:31.4] NL: Yes, absolutely. In my previous life, before being a Kubernetes architect, I actually used my networking and engineering degree to be a network administrator for the Boeing Company, under the Boeing Corporation. Time and time again, someone would come to me and say, “This isn’t working. The network is down.” And I’m like, “Is the network down or is the server down?” Because those are different things. Turns out it was usually the server. [0:01:58.5] SL: I used to tell my kids that they would come to me and they would say, the Internet is down and I would say, “Well, you know. I don’t think the entire Internet is down, I think it’s just our connection to the Internet.” [0:02:10.1] DC: Exactly. [0:02:11.7] JS: Dad, the entire global economy is just taking a total hit. [0:02:15.8] SL: Exactly, right. [0:02:17.2] DC: I frequently tell people that my first distributed system that I ever had a real understanding of was the network, you know? It’s interesting because it kind of like, relies on the premises that I think a good distributed system should in that there is some autonomy to each of the systems, right? They are dependent on each other or even are inter communicate with each other but fundamentally, like when you look at routers and things like that, they are autonomous in their own way. There’s work that they do exclusive to the work that others do and exclusive to their dependencies which I think is very interesting. [0:02:50.6] SL: I think the fact that the network is a distributed system and I’m glad you said that Duffie, I think the fact the network is a distributed system is what most people overlook when they start sort of blaming the network, right? Let’s face it, in the diagrams, right, the network’s always just this blob, right? Here’s the network, right? It’s this thing, this one singular thing. When in reality, what we have are like 10 or hundreds of devices with the state of the network as a system, distributed in little bitty pieces across all of these devices. And no way, aside from logging in to each one of these devices are we able to assemble what the overall state is, right? Even routing protocols mean, their entire purpose is to assemble some sort of common understanding of what the state of the network is. Melding together, not just IP addresses which are these abstract concept but physical addresses and physical connections. And trying to reason to make decisions about them, how we center across and it’s far more complex and a lot of people understand, I think that’s why it’s just like the network is down, right? When reality, it’s probably something else entirely. [0:03:58.1] DC: Yeah, absolutely. Another good point to bring up is that each of these distributed pieces of this distributed system are in themselves like basically like just a computer. A lot of times, I’ve talked to people and they were like, “Well, the router is something special.” And I’m like, “Not really. Technically, a Linux box could just be a router if you have enough ports that you plug into it. Or it could be a switch if you needed to, just plug in ports.” [0:04:24.4] NL: Another good interesting parallel there is like when we talk about like routing protocols which are a way of – a way that allow configuration changes to particular components within that distributed system to be known about by other components within that distributed system. I think there’s an interesting parallel here between the way that works and the way that configuration patterns that we have for distributed systems work, right? If you wanted to make a configuration only change to a set of applications that make up some distributed system, you might go about like leveraging Ansible or one of the many other configuration models for this. I think it’s interesting because it represents sort of an evolution of that same idea in that you’re making it so that each of the components is responsible for informing the other components of the change, rather than taking the outside approach of my job is to actually push a change that should be known about by all of these concepts, down to them. Really, it’s an interesting parallel. What do you all think of that? [0:05:22.2] SL: I don’t know, I’m not sure. I’d have to process that for a bit. But I mean, are you saying like the interesting thought here is that in contrast to typical systems management where we push configuration out to something, using a tool like an Ansible, whatever, these things are talking amongst themselves to determine state? [0:05:41.4] DC: Yeah, it’s like, there are patterns for this like inside of distributed systems today, things like Kafka and you know, Kafka and Gossip protocol, stuff like this actually allows all of the components of a particular distributed system to understand the common state or things that would be shared across them and if you think about them, they’re not all that different from a routing protocol, right? Like the goal being that you give the systems the ability to inform the other systems in some distributed system of the changes that they may have to react to. Another good example of this one, which I think is interesting is like, what they call – when you have a feature behind a flag, right? You might have some distributed configuration model, like a Redis cache or database somewhere that you’ve actually – that you’ve held the running configuration of this distributed system. And when you want to turn on this particular feature flag, you want all of the components that are associated with that feature flag to enable that new capability. Some of the patterns for that are pretty darn close to the way that routing protocol models work. [0:06:44.6] SL: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Actually, that’ makes a lot of sense. I mean, if we think about things like Gossip protocols or even consensus protocols like Raft, right? They are similar to routing protocols in that they are responsible for distributing state and then coming to an agreement on what that state is across the entire system. And we even apply terms like convergence to both environments like we talk about how long it takes routing protocol to converge. And we might also talk about how long it takes for and ETCD cluster to converge after changing the number of members in the cluster of that nature. The point at which everybody in that distributed system, whether it be the network ETCD or some other system comes to the same understanding of what that shared state is. [0:07:33.1] DC: Yeah, I think that’s a perfect breakdown, honestly. Pretty much every routing technology that’s out there. You know, if you’re taking that – the computer of the network, you know, it takes a while but eventually, everyone will reconcile the fact that, “Yeah, that node is gone now.” [0:07:47.5] NL: I think one thing that’s interesting and I don’t know how much of a parallel there is in this one but like as we consider these systems like with modern systems that we’re building at scale, frequently we can make use of things like eventual consistency in which it’s not required per se for a transaction to be persisted across all of the components that it would affect immediately. Just that they eventually converge, right? Whereas with the network, not so much, right? The network needs to be right now and every time and there’s not really a model for eventually consistent networks, right? [0:08:19.9] SL: I don’t know. I would contend that there is a model for eventually consistent networks, right? Certainly not on you know, most organizations, relatively simple, local area networks, right? But even if we were to take it and look at something like a Clos fabric, right, where we have top of rack switches and this is getting too deep for none networking blokes that we know, right? Where you take top of rack switches that are talking layer to the servers below them or the end point below them. And they’re talking layer three across a multi-link piece up to the top, right? To the spine switches, so you have leaf switches, talking up spine switches, they’re going to have multiple uplinks. If one of those uplinks goes down, it doesn’t really matter if the rest off that fabric knows that that link is down because we have the SQL cost multi pathing going across that one, right? In a situation like that, that fabric is eventually consistent in that it’s okay if you know, knee dropping link number one of leaf A up to spine A is down and the rest of the system doesn’t know about that yet. But, on the other hand, if you are looking at network designs where convergence is being handled on active standby links or something of that nature or there aren’t enough paths to get from point A to point B until convergence happens then yes, you’re right. I think it kind of comes down to network design and the underlying architecture and there are so many factors that affect that and so many designs over the years that it’s hard to – I would agree and from the perspective of like if you have an older network and it’s been around for some period of time, right? You probably have one that is not going to be tolerant, a link being down like it will cause problems. [0:09:58.4] NL: Adds another really great parallel in software development, I think. Another great example of that, right? If we consider for a minute like the circuit breaking pattern or even like you know, most load balancer patterns, right? In which you have some way of understanding a list of healthy end points behind the load balancer and were able to react when certain end points are no longer available. I don’t consider that a pattern that I would relate to specifically if they consent to eventual consistency. I feel like that still has to be immediate, right? We have to be able to not send the new transaction to the dead thing. That has to stop immediately, right? It does in most routing patterns that are described by multi path, there is a very time sensitive mechanism that allows for the re-dispersal of that traffic across known paths that are still good. And the work, the amazing amount of work that protocol architects and network engineers go through to understand just exactly how the behavior of those systems will work. Such that we don’t see traffic. Black hole in the network for a period of time, right? If we don’t send traffic to the trash when we know or we have for a period of time, while things converge is really has a lot going for it. [0:11:07.0] SL: Yeah, I would agree. I think the interesting thing about discussing eventual consistency with regards to the networking is that even if we take a relatively simple model like the DOD model where we only have four layers to contend with, right? We don’t have to go all the way to this seven-layer OSI model. But even if we take a simple layer like the DOD four-layer model, we could be talking about the rapid response of a device connected at layer two but the less than rapid response of something operating at layer three or layer four, right? In the case of a network where we have these discreet layers that are intentionally loosely coupled which is another topic, we could talk about from a distribution perspective, right? We have these layers that are intentionally loosely coupled, we might even see consistency and the application of the cap theorem, behave differently at different layers of their model. [0:12:04.4] DC: That’s right. I think it’s fascinating like how much parallel there is here. As you get into like you know, deep architectures around software, you’re thinking of these things as it relates to like these distributed systems, especially as you’re moving toward more cloud native systems in which you start employing things like control theory and thinking about the behaviours of those systems both in aggregate like you know, some component of my application, can I scale this particular component horizontally or can I not, how am I handling state. So many of those things have parallels to the network that I feel like it kind of highlights I’m sure what everybody has heard a million times, you know, that there’s nothing new under the sun. There’s million things that we could learn from things that we’ve done in the past. [0:12:47.0] NL: Yeah, totally agree. I recently have been getting more and more development practice and something that I do sometimes is like draw out like how all of my functions and my methods, and take that in rack with each other across a consisting code base and lo and behold when I draw everything out, it sure does look a lot like a network diagram. All these things have to flow together in a very specific way and you expect the kind of returns that you’re looking for. It looks exactly the same, it’s kind of the – you know, how an atom kind of looks like a galaxy from our diagram? All these things are extrapolated across like – [0:13:23.4] SL: Yeah, totally. [0:13:24.3] NL: Different models. Or an atom looks like a solar system which looks like a galaxy. [0:13:28.8] SL: Nicholas, you said your network administrator at Boeing? [0:13:30.9] NL: I was, I was a network engineer at Boeing. [0:13:34.0] SL: You know, as you were sitting there talking, Duffie, so, I thought back to you Nick, I think all the times, I have a personal passion for helping people continue to grow and evolve in their career and not being stuck. I talk to a lot of networking folks, probably dating because of my involvement, back in the NSX team, right? But folks being like, “I’m just a network engineer, there’s so much for me to learn if I have to go learn Kubernetes, I wouldn’t even know where to start.” This discussion to me underscores the fact that if you understand how a network is a distributed system and how these theories apply to a network, then you can extrapolate those concepts and apply them to something like Kubernetes or other distributed systems, right? Immediately begin to understand, okay. Well, you know, this is how these pieces talk to each other, this is how they come, the consensus, this is where the state is stored, this is how they understand and exchange date, I got this. [0:14:33.9] NL: if you want to go down that that path, the controlled plane of your cluster is just like your central routing back bone and then the kublets themselves are just your edge switches going to each of your individual smaller network and then the pods themselves have been nodes inside of the network, right? You can easily – look at that, holy crap, it looks exactly the same. [0:14:54.5] SL: Yeah, that’s a good point. [0:14:55.1] DC: I mean, another interesting part, when you think about how we characterize systems, like where we learn that, where that skillset comes from. You raise a very good point. I think it’s an easier – maybe slightly easier thing to learn inside of networking, how to characterize that particular distributed system because of the way the components themselves are laid out and in such a common way. Where when we start looking at different applications, we find a myriad of different patterns with particular components that may behave slightly differently depending, right? Like there are different patterns within software like almost on per application bases whereas like with networks, they’re pretty consistently applied, right? Every once in a while, they’ll be kind of like a new pattern that emerges, that it just changes the behavior a little bit, right? Or changes the behavior like a lot but at the same time, consistently across all of those things that we call data center networks or what have you. To learn to troubleshoot though, I think the key part of this is to be able to spend the time and the effort to actually understand that system and you know, whether you light that fire with networking or whether you light that fire with like just understanding how to operationalize applications or even just developing and architecting them, all of those things come into play I think. [0:16:08.2] NL: I agree. I’m actually kind of curious, the three of us have been talking quite a bit about networking from the perspective that we have which is more infrastructure focused. But Josh, you have more of a developer focused background, what’s your interaction and understanding of the network and how it plays? [0:16:24.1] JS: Yeah, I’ve always been a consumer of the network. It’s something that is sat behind an API and some library, right? I call out to something that makes a TCP connection or an http interaction and then things just happen. I think what’s really interesting hearing talk and especially the point about network engineers getting into thee distributed system space is that I really think that as we started to put infrastructure behind API’s and made it more and more accessible to people like myself, app developers and programmers, we started – by we, you know, I’m obviously generalizing here. But we started owning more and more of the infrastructure. When I go into teams that are doing big Kubernetes deployments, it’s pretty rare, that’s the conventional infrastructure and networking teams that are standing up distributed systems, Kubernetes or not, right? It's a lot of times, a bunch of app developers who have maybe what we call dev-ops, whatever that means but they have an application development background, they understand how they interact with API’s, how to write code that respects or interacts with their infrastructure and they’re standing up these systems and I think one of the gaps of that really creates is a lot of people including myself just hearing you all talk, we don’t understand networking at that level. When stuff falls over and it’s either truly the network or it’s getting blamed on the network, it’s often times, just because we truly don’t understand a lot of these things, right? Encapsulation, meshes, whatever it might be, we just don’t understand these concepts at a deep level and I think if we had a lot more people with network engineering backgrounds, shifting into the distributed system space. It would alleviate a bit of that, right? Bringing more understanding into the space that we work in nowadays. [0:18:05.4] DC: I wonder if maybe it also would be a benefit to have like more cross discussions like this one between developers and infrastructure kind of focused people, because we’re starting to see like as we’re crossing boundaries, we see that the same things that we’re doing on the infrastructure side, you’re also doing in the developer side. Like cap theorem as Scott mention which is the idea that you can have two out of three of consistency, availability and partitioning. That also applies to networking in a lot of ways. You can only have a network that is either like consistent or available but it can’t handle partitioning. It can be a consistent to handle partitioning but it’s not always going to be available, that sort of thing. These things that apply in from the software perspective also apply to us but we think about them as being so completely different. [0:18:52.5] JS: Yeah, I totally agree. I really think like on the app side, a couple of years ago, you know, I really just didn’t care anything outside of the JVM like my stuff on the JVM and if it got out to the network layer of the host like just didn’t care, know, need to know about that at all. But ever since cloud computing and distributed systems and everything became more prevalent, the overlap has become extremely obvious, right? In all these different concepts and it’s been really interesting to try to ramp up on that. [0:19:19.6]:19.3] NNL: Yeah, I think you know Scott and I both do this. I think as I imagine, actually, this is true of all four of us to be honest. But I think that it’s really interesting when you are out there talking to people who do feel like they’re stuck in some particular role like they’re specialists in some particular area and we end up having the same discussion with them over and over again. You know, like, “Look, that may pay the bills right now but it’s not going to pay the bills in the future.” And so you know, the question becomes, how can you, as a network engineer take your skills forward and not feel as though you’re just going to have to like learn everything all over again. I think that one of the things that network engineers are pretty decent at is characterizing those systems and being able to troubleshoot them and being able to do it right now and being able to like firefight those capabilities and those skills are incredibly valuable in the software development and in operationalizing applications and in SRE models. I mean, all of those skills transfer, you know? If you’re out there and you’re listening and you feel like I will always be a network engineer, consider that you could actually take those skills forward into some other role if you chose to. [0:20:25.1] JS: Yeah, totally agree. I mean, look at me, the lofty career that I’ve been come to. [0:20:31.4] SL: You know, I would also say that the fascinating thing to me and one of the reasons I launched, I don’t say this to like try and plug it but just as a way of talking about the reason I launched my own podcast which is now part of packet pushers, was exploring this very space and that is like we’ve got folks like Josh who comes from the application development spacing is now being, you know, in a way, forced to own and understand more infrastructure and we’ve got the infrastructure folks who now in a way, whether it be through the rise of cloud computing and abstractions away from visible items are being forced kind of up the stack and so they’re coming together and this idea of what does the future of the folks that are kind of like in our space, what does that look like? How much longer does a network engineer really need to be deeply versed in all the different layers? Because everything’s been abstracted away by some other type of thing whether it’s VPC’s or Azure V Nets or whatever the case is, right? I mean, you’ve got companies bringing the VPC model to on premises networks, right? As API’s become more prevalent, as everything gets sort of abstracted away, what does the future look like, what are the most important skills and it seems to me that it’s these concepts that we’re talking about, right? This idea of distributed systems and how distributed systems behave and how the components react to one another and understanding things like the cap theorem that are going to be most applicable rather than the details of trouble shooting VGP or understanding AWS VPC’s or whatever the case may be. [0:22:08.5] NL: I think there is always going to be a place for the people who know how things are running under the hood from like a physical layer perspective, that sort of thing, there’s always going to be the need for the grave beards, right? Even in software development, we still have the people who are slinging kernel code in C. And you know, they’re the best, we salute you but that is not something that I’m interested in it for sure. We always need someone there to pick up the pieces as it were. I think that yeah, having just being like, I’m a Cisco guy, I’m a Juniper guy, you know? I know how to pawn that or RSH into the switch and execute these commands and suddenly I’ve got this port is now you know, trunk to this V neck crap, I was like, Nick, remember your training, you know? How to issue those commands, I wonder, I think that that isn’t necessarily going away but it will be less in demand in the future. [0:22:08.5] SL: I’m curious to hear Josh’s perspective as like having to own more and more of the infrastructure underneath like what seems to be the right path forward for those folks? [0:23:08.7] JS: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of times, it just ends up being trial by fire and it probably shouldn’t be that. But the amount of times that I have seen a deployment of some technology fall over because we overlapped the site range or something like that is crazy. Because we just didn’t think about it or really understand it that well. You know, like using one protocol, you just described BGP. I never ever dreamt of what BGP was until I started using attributed systems, right? Started using BGP as a way to communicate routes and the amount off times that I’ve messed up that connection because I don’t have a background in how to set that up appropriately, it’s been rough. I guess my perspective is that the technology has gotten better overall and I’m mostly obviously in the Kubernetes space, speaking to the technologies around a lot of the container networking solutions but I’m sure this is true overall. It seems like a lot of the sharp edges have been buffed out quite a bit and I have less of an opportunity to do things terribly wrong. I’ve also noticed for what it’s worth, a lot of folks that have my kind of background or going out to like the AWS is the Azure’s of the world. They’re using all these like, abstracted networking technologies that allow t hem to do really cool stuff without really having to understand how it works and they’re often times going back to their networking team on prem when they have on prem requirements and being like it should be this easy or XY and Z and they’re almost like pushing the networking team to modernize that and make things simpler. Based on experiences they’re having with these cloud providers. [0:24:44.2] DC: Yeah, what do you mean I can’t create a load balancer that crosses between these two disparate data centers as it easily is. Just issuing a single command. Doesn’t this just exist from a networking standpoint? Even just the idea that you can issue an API command and get a load balancer, just that idea alone, the thousands of times I have heard that request in my career. [0:25:08.8] JS: And like the actual work under the hood to get that to work properly is it’s a lot, there’s a lot of stuff going on. [0:25:16.5] SL: Absolutely, yeah, [0:25:17.5] DC: Especially when you’re into plumbing, you know? If you’re going to create a load balancer with API, well then, what API does the load balancer use to understand where to send that traffic when it’s being balanced. How do you handle discovery, how do you hit like – obviously, yeah, there’s no shortage on the amount of work there. [0:25:36.0] JS: Yeah. [0:25:36.3] DC: That’s a really good point, I mean, I think sometimes it’s easy for me to think about some of these API driven networking models and the cost that come with them, the hidden cost that come with them. An example of this is, if you’re in AWS and you have a connectivity between wo availability, actually could be any cloud, it doesn’t have to be an AWS, right? If you have connectivity between two different availability zones and you’re relying on that to be reliable and consistent and definitely not to experience, what tools do you have at your disposal, what guarantees do you have that that network has even operating in a way that is responsive, right? And in a way, this is kind of taking us towards the observability conversation that I think we’ve talked a little bit about the past. Because I think it highlights the same set of problems again, right? You have to understand, you have to be able to provide the consumers of any service, whether that service is plumbing, whether it’s networking, whether it’s your application that you’ve developed that represents a set of micro service. You have to provide everybody a way or you know, have to provide the people who are going to answer the phone at two in the morning. Or even the robots that are going to answer the phone at two in the morning. I have to provide them some mechanism by which to observe those systems as they are in use. [0:26:51.7] JS: I’m not convinced that very many of the cloud providers do that terribly well today, you know? I feel like I’ve been burned in the past without actually having an understanding of the state that we’re in and so it is interesting maybe the software development team can actually start pushing that down toward the networking vendors out there out in the world. [0:27:09.9] NL: Yeah that would be great. I mean I have been recently using a managed Kubernetes service. I have been kicking the tires on it a little bit. And yeah there has been a couple of times where I had just been got by networking issues. I am not going to get into what I have seen in a container network interface or any of the technologies around that. We are going to talk about that another time. But the CNI that I am using in this managed service was just so wonky and weird. And it was failing from a network standpoint. The actual network was failing in a sense because the IP addresses for the nodes themselves or the pods wasn’t being released properly and because of our bag. And so, the rules associated with my account could not remove IP addresses from a node in the network because it wasn’t allowed to and so from a network, I ran out of IP addresses in my very small site there. [0:28:02.1] SL: And this could happen in database, right? This could happen in a cache of information, this could happen in pretty much the same pattern that you are describing is absolutely relevant in both of these fields, right? And that is a fascinating thing about this is that you know we talk about the network generally in these nebulous terms and that it is like a black box and I don’t want them to know anything about it. I want to learn about it, I don’t want to understand it. I just want to be able to consume it via an API and I want to have the expectation that everything will work the way it is supposed to. I think it is fascinating that on the other side of that API are people maybe just like you who are doing their level best to provide, to chase the cap theorum into it’s happy end and figure out how to actually give you what you need out of that service, you know? So, empathy I think is important. [0:28:50.4] NL: Absolutely, to bring that to an interesting thought that I just had where on both sides of this chasm or whatever it is between networking and develop, the same principles exists like we have been saying but just to elicited on it a little bit more, it’s like on one side you have like I need to make sure that these ETCD nodes communicate with each other and that the data is consistent across the other ones. So, we use a protocol called RAFT, right? And so that’s eventually existent tool then that information is sent onto a network, which is probably using OSPF, which is “open shortest path first” routing protocol to become eventually consistent on the data getting from one point to the other by opening the shortest path possible. And so these two things are very similar. They are both these communication protocols, which is I mean that is what protocol means, right? The center for communication but they’re just so many different layers. Obviously of the OSI model but people don’t put them together but they really are and we keep coming back to that where it is all the same thing but we think about it so differently. And I am actually really appreciating this conversation because now I am having a galaxy brain moment like boo. [0:30:01.1] SL: Another really interesting one like another galaxy moment, I think that is interesting is if you think about – so let us break them down like TCP and UTP. These are interesting patterns that actually do totally relate again just in software patterns, right? In TCP the guarantee is that every data gram, if you didn’t get the entire data gram you will understand that you are missing data and you will request a new version of that same packet. And so, you can provide consistency in the form of retries or repeats if things don’t work, right? Not dissimilar from the ability to understand like that whether you chuck some in data across the network or like in a particular data base, if you make a query for a bunch of information you have to have some way of understanding that you got the most recent version of it, right? Or ETCD supports us by using the revision by understanding what revision you received last or whether that is the most recent one. And other software patterns kind of follow the same model and I think that is also kind of interesting. Like we are still using the same primitive tools to solve the same problems whether we are doing it at a software application layer or whether we are doing it down in the plumbing at the network there, these tools are still very similar. Another example is like UTP where it is basically there are no repeats. You either got the packet or you didn’t, which sounds a lot like an event stream to me in some ways, right? Like it is very interesting, you just figured out like I put in on the line, you didn’t get it? It is okay, I will put another line here in a minute you can react to that one, right? It is an interesting overlap. [0:31:30.6] NL: Yeah, totally. [0:31:32.9] JS: Yeah, the comparison to event streams or message queues, right? There is an interesting one that I hadn’t considered before but yeah, there are certainly parallels between saying, “Okay I am going to put this on the message queue,” and wait for the acknowledgement that somebody has taken it and taken ownership of it as oppose to an event stream where it is like this happened. I admit this event. If you get it and you do something with it, great. If you don’t get it then you don’t do something with it, great because another event is going to come along soon. So, there you go. [0:32:02.1] DC: Yep, I am going to go down a weird topic associated with what we are just talking about. But I am going to get a little bit more into the weeds of networking and this is actually directed into us in a way. So, talking about the kind of parallels between networking and development, in networking at least with TCP and networking, there is something called CSMACD, which is “carry your sense multi,” oh I can’t remember what the A stands for and the CD. [0:32:29.2] SL: Access. [0:32:29.8] DC: Multi access and then CD is collision detection and so basically what that means is whenever you sent out a packet on the network, the network device itself is listening on the network for any collisions and if it detects a collision it will refuse to send a packet until a certain period of time and they will do a retry to make sure that these packets are getting sent as efficiently as possible. There is an alternative to that called CMSCA, which was used by Mac before they switched over to using a Linux based operating system. And then putting a fancy UI in front of it, which collision avoidance would listen and try and – I can’t remember exactly, it would time it differently so that it would totally just avoid any chance that there could be collision. It would make sure that no packets were being sent right then and then send it back up. And so I was wondering if something like that exists in the realm between the communication path between applications. [0:33:22.5] JS: Is it collision two of the same packets being sent or what exactly is that? [0:33:26.9] DC: With the packets so basically any data going back and forth. [0:33:29.7] JS: What makes it a collision? [0:33:32.0] SL: It is the idea that you can only transmit one message at a time because if they both populate the same media it is trash, both of them are trash. [0:33:39.2] JS: And how do you qualify that. Do you receive an ac from the system or? [0:33:42.8] NL: No there is just nothing returned essentially so it is like literally like the electrical signals going down the wire. They physically collide with each other and then the signal breaks. [0:33:56.9] JS: Oh, I see, yeah, I am not sure. I think there is some parallels to that maybe with like queuing technologies and things like that but can’t think of anything on like direct app dev side. [0:34:08.6] DC: Okay, anyway sorry for that tangent. I just wanted to go down that little rabbit-hole a little bit. It was like while we are talking about networking, I was like, “Oh yeah, I wanted to see how deep down we can make this parallel going?” so that was the direction I went. [0:34:20.5] SL: Like where is that that CSMACD, a piece is like seriously old school, right? Because it only applied to half duplex Ethernet and as soon as we went to full duplex Ethernet it didn’t matter anymore. [0:34:33.7] DC: That is true. I totally forgot about that. [0:34:33.8] JS: It applied the satellite with all of these as well. [0:34:35.9] DC: Yeah, I totally forgot about that. Yeah and with full duplex, we totally just space on that. This is – damn Scott, way to make me feel old. [0:34:45.9] SL: Well I mean satellite stuff, too, right? I mean it is actually any shared media upon which you have to – where if this stuff goes and overlap there, you are not going to be able to make it work right? And so, I mean it is interesting. It is actually an interesting PNL. I am struggling to think of an example of this as well. I mean my brain is going towards circuit breaking but I don’t think that that is quite the same thing. It is sort the same thing that in a circuit breaking pattern, the application that is making the request has the ability obviously because it is the thing making the request to understand that the target it is trying to connect to is not working correctly. And so, it is able to make an almost instantaneous decision or at least a very shortly, a very timely decision about what to do when it detects that state. And so that’s a little similar and that you can and from the requester side you can do things if you see things going awry. And really and in reality, in the circuit breaking pattern we are making the assumption that only the application making the request will ever get that information fast enough to react to it. [0:35:51.8] JS: Yeah where my head was kind of going with it but I think it is pretty off is like on a low level piece of code like it is maybe something you write in C where you implement your own queue in that area and then multiple threads are firing off the same time and there is no block system or mechanism if two threads contend to put something in the same memory space that that queue represents. That is really going down the rabbit hole. I can’t even speak to what degree that is possible in modern programming but that is where my head was. [0:36:20.3] NL: Yeah that is a good point. [0:36:21.4] SL: Yeah, I think that is actually a pretty good analogy because the key commonality here is some sort of shared access, right? Multiple threads accessing the same stack or memory buffer. The other thing that came to mind to me was like some sort of session multiplexing, right? Where you are running multiple application layer sessions inside a single sort of network connection and those network sessions getting comingled in some fashion. Whether through identifiers or sequence number or something else of that nature and therefore, you know garbling the ultimate communication that is trying to be sent. [0:36:59.2] DC: Yeah, locks are exactly the right direction, I think. [0:37:03.6] NL: That is a very good point. [0:37:05.2] DC: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. Good, all right. Yes, we nailed it. [0:37:09.7] SL: Good job. [0:37:10.8] DC: Can anybody here think of a software pattern that maybe doesn’t come across that way? When you are thinking about some of the patterns that you see today in cloud native applications, is there a counter example, something that the network does not do at all? [0:37:24.1] NL: That is interesting. I am trying to think where event streams. No, that is just straight up packets. [0:37:30.7] JS: I feel like we should open up one of those old school Java books of like 9,000 design patterns you need to know and we should go one by one and be like, “What about this” you know? There is probably something I can’t think of it off the top of my head. [0:37:43.6] DC: Yeah me neither. I was trying to think of it. I mean like I can think of a myriad of things that do cross over even the idea of only locally relevant state, right? That is like a cam table on a switch that is only locally relevant because once you get outside of that switching domain it doesn’t matter anymore and it is like there is a ton of those things that totally do relate, you know? But I am really struggling to come up with one that doesn’t – One thing that is actually interesting is I was going to bring up – we mentioned the cap theorem and it is an interesting one that you can only pick like two and three of consistency availability and partition tolerance. And I think you know, when I think about the way that networks solve or try to address this problem, they do it in some pretty interesting way. It’s like if you were to consider like Spanning Tree, right? The idea that there can really only be one path through a series of broadcast domains. Because we have multiple paths then obviously we are going to get duplicity and the things are going to get bad because they are going to have packets that are addressed the same things across and you are going to have all kinds of bad behaviors, switching loops and broadcast storms and all kinds of stuff like that and so Spanning Tree came along and Spanning Tree was invented by an amazing woman engineer who created it to basically ensure that there was only one path through a set of broadcast domains. And in a way, this solved that camp through them because you are getting to the point where you said like since I understand that for availability purpose, I only need one path through the whole thing and so to ensure consistency, I am going to turn off the other paths and to allow for partition tolerance, I am going to enable the system to learn when one of those paths is no longer viable so that it can re-enable one of the other paths. Now the challenge of course is there is a transition period in which we lose traffic because we haven’t been able to open one of those other paths fast enough, right? And so, it is interesting to think about how the network is trying to solve with the part that same set of problems that is described by the cap theorem that we see people trying to solve with software routine. [0:39:44.9] SL: No man I totally agree. In a case like Spanning Tree, you are sacrificing availability essentially for consistency and partition tolerance when the network achieves consistency then availability will be restored and there is other ways to doing that. So as we move into systems like I mentioned clos fabrics earlier, you know a cost fabric is a different way of establishing a solution to that and that is saying I’d later too. I will have multiple connections. I will wait those connections using the higher-level protocol and I will sacrifice consistency in terms of how the routes are exchanged to get across that fabric in exchange for availability and partition columns. So, it is a different way of solving the same problem and using a different set of tools to do that, right? [0:40:34.7] DC: I personally find it funny that in the cap theorem there is at no point do we mention complexity, right? We are just trying to get all three and we don’t care if it’s complex. But at the same time, as a consumer of all of these systems, you care a lot about the complexity. I hear it all the time. Whether that complexity is in a way that the API itself works or whether even in this episode we are talking about like I maybe don’t want to learn how to make the network work. I am busy trying to figure out how to make my application work, right? Like cognitive load is a thing. I can only really focus on so many things at a time where am I going to spend my time? Am I going to spend it learning how to do plumbing or am I going to spend it actually trying the right application that solves my business problem, right? It is an interesting thing. [0:41:17.7] NL: So, with the rise of software defined networking, how did that play into the adoption of cloud native technologies? [0:41:27.9] DC: I think it is actually one of the more interesting overlaps in the space because I think to Josh’s point again. his is where we were taking I mean I work for a company called [inaudible 0:41:37], in which we were virtualizing the network and this is fascinating because effectively we are looking at this as a software service that we had to bring up and build and build reliably and scalable. Reliably and consistently and scalable. We want to create this all while we are solving problems. But we need it to do within an API. It is like we couldn’t make the assumption with the way that networks were being defined today like going to each component and configuring them or using protocols was actually going to work in this new model of software confined networking. And so, we had an incredible amount of engineers who were really focused from a computer science perspective on how to effectively reinvent network as a software solution. And I do think that there is a huge amount of cross over here like this is actually where I think the waters meet between the way the developers think about the problems and the way that network engineers think about the problem but it has been a rough road I will say. I will say that STN I think is actually has definitely thrown a lot of network engineers under their heels because they’re like, “Wait, wait but that is not a network,” you know? Because I can’t actually look at it and characterize it in the way that I am accustomed to looking at characterizing the other networks that I play with. And then from the software side, you’re like, “Well maybe that is okay” right? Maybe that is enough, it is really interesting. [0:42:57.5] SL: You know I don’t know enough about the details of how AWS or Azure or Google are actually doing their networking like and I don’t even know and maybe you guys all do know – but I don’t even know that aside from a few tidbits here and there that AWS is going to even divulge the details of how things work under the covers for VPC’s right? But I can’t imagine that any modern cloud networking solution whether it would be VBPC’s or VNET’s or whatever doesn’t have a significant software to find aspect to it. You know, we don’t need to get into the definitions of what STN is or isn’t. That was a big discussion Duffie and I had six years ago, right? But there has to be some part of it that is taking and using the concepts that are common in STN right? And applying that. Just as the same way as the cloud vendors are using the concepts from compute virtualization to enable what they are doing. I mean like the reality is that you know the work that was done by the Cambridge folks on Zen was a massive enabler trade for AWS, right? The word done on KVM also a massive enabler for lots of people. I think GCP is KBM based and V Sphere where VM Ware data as well. I mean all of this stuff was a massive enablers for what we do with compute virtualization in the cloud. I have to think that whether it is – even if it wasn’t necessarily directly stemming out of Martin Casado’s open flow work at Stanford, right? That a lot of these software define networking concepts are still seeing use in the modern clouds these days and that is what enables us to do things like issue an API call and have an isolated network space with its own address space and its own routing and satiated in some way and managed. [0:44:56.4] JS: Yeah and on that latter point, you know as a consumer of this new software defined nature of networking, it is amazing the amount of I don’t know, I started using like a blanket marketing term here but agility that it is added, right? Because it has turned all of these constructs that I used to file a ticket and follow up with people into self-service things that when I need to poke holes in the network, hopefully the rights are locked down, so I just can’t open it all up. Assuming I know what I am doing and the rights are correct it is totally self-service for me. I go into AWS, I change the security group roll and boom, the ports have changed and it never looked like that prior to this full takeover of what I believe is STN almost end to end in the case of AWS and so on. So, it is really just not only has it made people like myself have to understand more about networking but it has allowed us to self-service a lot of the things. That I would imagine most network engineers were probably tired of doing anyways, right? How many times do you want to go to that firewall and open up that port? Are you really that excited about that? I would imagine not so. [0:45:57.1] NL: Well I can only speak from experience and I think a lot of network engineers kind of get into that field because it really love control. And so, they want to know what these ports are that are opening and it is scary to be like this person has opened up these ports, “Wait what?” Like without them even totally knowing. I mean I was generalizing, I was more so speaking to myself as being self-deprecating. It doesn’t apply to you listener. [0:46:22.9] JS: I mean it is a really interesting point though. I mean do you think it makes the networking people or network engineers maybe a little bit more into the realm of observability and like knowing when to trigger when something has gone wrong? Does it make them more reactive in their role I guess. Or maybe self-service is not as common as I think it is. It is just from my point of view, it seems like with STN’s the ability to modify the network more power has been put into the developers’ hands is how I look at it, you know? [0:46:50.7] DC: I definitely agree with that. It is interesting like if we go back a few years there was a time when all of us in the room here I think are employed by VMware. So, there was a time where VMware’s thing was like the real value or one of the key values that VMware brought to the table was the idea that a developer come and say “Give me 10 servers.” And you could just call an API or make it or you could quickly provision those 10 servers on behalf of that developer and hand them right back. You wouldn’t have to go out and get 10 new machines and put them into a rack, power them and provision them and go through that whole process that you could actually just stamp those things out, right? And that is absolutely parallel to the network piece as well. I mean if there is nothing else that SPN did bring to the fore is that, right? That you can get that same capability of just stamping up virtual machines but with networks that the API is important in almost everything we do. Whether it is a service that you were developing, whether it is a network itself, whether it is the firewall that we need to do these things programmatically. [0:47:53.7] SL: I agree with you Duffie. Although I would contend that the one area that and I will call it on premises STN shall we say right? Which is the people putting on STN solutions. I’d say the one area at least in my observation that they haven’t done well is that self-service model. Like in the cloud, self-service is paramount to Josh’s point. They can go out there, they can create their own BPC’s, create their own sub nets, create their own NAT gateways, Internet gateways to run security groups. Load balancers, blah-blah, all of that right? But it still seems to me that even though we are probably 90, 95% of the way there, maybe farther in terms of on premise STN solutions right that you still typically don’t see self-service being pushed out in the same way you would in the public cloud, right? That is almost the final piece that is needed to bring that cloud experience to the on-premises environment. [0:48:52.6] DC: That is an interesting point. I think from an infrastructure as a service perspective, it falls into that realm. It is a problem to solve in that space, right? So when you look at things like OpenStack and things like AWS and things like JKE or not JKE but GCE and areas like that, it is a requirement that if you are going to provide infrastructure as a service that you provide some capability around networking but at the same time, if we look at some of the platforms that are used for things like cloud native applications. Things like Kubernetes, what is fascinating about that is that we have agreed on a least come – we agreed on abstraction of networking that is maybe I don’t know, maybe a little more precooked you know what I mean? In the assumption within like most of the platforms as a service that I have seen, the assumption is that when I deploy a container or I deploy a pod or I deploy some function as a service or any of these things that the networking is going to be handled for me. I shouldn’t have to think about whether it is being routed to the Internet or not or routed back and forth between these domains. I should if anything only have to actually give you intent, be able to describe to you the intent of what could be connected to this and what ports I am actually going to be exposing and that the platform actually hides all of the complexity of that network away from me, which is an interesting round to strike. [0:50:16.3] SL: So, this is one of my favorite things, one of my favorite distinctions to make, right? And that is this is the two worlds that we have been talking about, applications and infrastructure and the perfect example of these different perspectives and you even said it or you talked there Duffie like from an IS perspective it is considered a given that you have to be able to say I want a network, right? But when you come at this from the application perspective, you don’t care about a network. You just want network connectivity, right? And so, when you look at the abstractions that IS vendors and solutions or products have created then they are IS centric but when you look at the abstractions that have been created in the cloud data space like within Kubernetes, they are application centric, right? And so, we are talking about infrastructure artifacts versus application artifacts and they end up meeting but they are coming at this from two different very different perspectives. [0:51:18.5] DC: Yeah. [0:51:19.4] NL: Yeah, I agree. [0:51:21.2] DC: All right, well that was a great discussion. I imagine that we are probably get into – at least I have a couple of different networking discussions that I wanted to dig into and this conversation I hope that we’ve helped draw some parallels back and forth between the way – I mean there is both some empathy to spend here, right? I mean the people who are providing the service of networking to you in your cloud environments and your data centers are solving almost exactly the same sorts of availability problems and capabilities that you are trying to solve with your own software. And I think in itself is a really interesting takeaway. Another one is that again there is nothing new under the sun. The problems that we are trying to solve in networking are not different than the problems that you are trying to solve in applications. We have far fewer tools and we generally network engineers are focused on specific changes that happen in the industry rather than looking at a breathe of industries like I mean as Josh pointed out, you could break open a Java book. And see 8,000 patterns for how to do Java and this is true, every programming language that I am aware of I mean if you look at Go and see a bunch of different patterns there and we have talked about different patterns for just developing cloud native aware applications as well, right? I mean there is so many options in the software versus what we can do and what are available to us within networks. And so I think I am rambling a little bit but I think that is the takeaway from this session. Is that there is a lot of overlap and there is a lot of really great stuff out there. So, this is Duffie, thank you for tuning in and I look forward to the next episode. [0:52:49.9] NL: Yep and I think we can all agree that Token Ring should have won. [0:52:53.4] DC: Thank you Josh and thank you Scott. [0:52:55.8] JS: Thanks. [0:52:57.0] SL: Thanks guys, this was a blast. [END OF EPISODE] [0:52:59.4] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Jobs in Cloud Native (Ep 14)

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 27, 2020 48:41

Our topic in today's great episode is how we think jobs in software engineering have changed since the advent of cloud native computing. We begin by giving our listeners an idea of our jobs and speak more to what a job in cloud native would look like as well as how Kubernetes fits into the whole picture. Next up we cover some old challenges and how advances in the field have made those go away while simultaneously opening the gateway to even more abstract problems. We talk about some of the specific new developments and how they have changed certain jobs. For example, QA has not disappeared but rather evolved toward becoming ever more automated, and language evolution has left more space for actual development instead of debugging. Our conversation shifts toward some tips for what to know to get into cloud native and where to find this information. We wrap up our conversation with some thoughts on the future of this exciting space, predicting how it might change but also how it should change. Software engineering is still in a place where it is continuously breaking new ground, so tune in to hear why you should be learning as much as you can about development right now. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • The work descriptions of our hosts who merge development, sysadmin, and consulting.• What a cloud native related job looks like.• Conceptualizing cloud native in relation to development, sysadmin, and DevOps.• A cloud native job is anything related to building software for other people’s computers.• Kubernetes is just one way of helping software run easily on a cloud.• Differences between cloud native today and 10 years ago: added ease through more support.• How cloud native developing is the new full stack due to the wide skillset required.• An argument that old challenges are gone but have introduced more abstract ones.• Advances making transitioning from testing to production more problem-free.• How QA has turned into SDE, meaning engineers now write software that tests.• Why jobs have matured after the invention of cloud native.• Whether the changes in jobs have been one of titles or function.• How languages like Rust, Go, and Swift have changed developer jobs by being less buggy.• What good support equates to, beyond names like CRE and company size.• The many things people who want to get into cloud native should know.• Prospective cloud native workers should understand OSs, networking, and more.• Different training programs for learning Kubernetes such as CKA and CKAD.• Resources for learning such as books, YouTube videos, and podcasts.• Predictions and recommendations for the future of cloud native. • Tips for recruiters such as knowing the software they are hiring for. Quotes: “What is the cloud? The cloud is other people’s computers. It's LPC, and what is Kubernetes? Well, basically, it’s a way that we can run our software on other people’s computers, AKA the cloud.” — @bryanl [0:07:35] “What we have now is we know what we can do with distributed computing and now we have a great set of software for multiple vendors who allow us to do what we want to do.” — @bryanl [0:10:03] “There are certain challenges now in cloud native that are gone, so the things that were hard before like spinning up a server or getting the database are gone and that frees us to worry about more complicated or more abstract ideas.” — @apinick [0:12:58] “The biggest problem with what we are doing is that we are trailblazing. So a lot of the things that are happening, like the way that Kubernetes advances every few months is new, new, new, new.” — @bryanl [0:36:11] “Now is the literal best time to get into writing software and specifically for cloud native applications.” — @bryanl [0:42:22] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/ Google Cloud Platform — https://cloud.google.com/ AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/ Amazon RDS — https://aws.amazon.com/rds/ Mesosphere — https://d2iq.com/ Aurora — https://stackshare.io/stackups/aurora-vs-mesos-vs-mesosphere Marathon — https://mesosphere.github.io/marathon/ Rails Rumble — http://blog.railsrumble.com/ Terraform — https://www.terraform.io/intro/index.html Swift — https://developer.apple.com/swift/ Go — https://golang.org/ Rust — https://www.rust-lang.org/ DigitalOcean — https://www.digitalocean.com/ Docker — https://www.docker.com/ Swarm — https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/working-papers/the-swarm-simulation-system-a-toolkit-for-building HashiCorp — https://www.hashicorp.com/ Programming Kubernetes on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Kubernetes-Developing-Native-Applications/dp/1492047104 The Kubernetes Cookbook on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Cookbook-Building-Native-Applications/dp/1491979682 Kubernetes Patterns on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Patterns-Designing-Cloud-Native-Applications/dp/1492050288 Cloud Native DevOps with Kubernetes on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-DevOps-Kubernetes-Applications/dp/1492040762 Kubernetes in Action on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Kubernetes-Action-Marko-Luksa/dp/1617293725 Managing Kubernetes on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Kubernetes-Operating-Clusters-World/dp/149203391X Transcript: EPISODE 14 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] NL: Hello and welcome back. This week, we’ll be discussing the thing that’s brought us all together, our jobs. But not just our jobs. I think we’re going to be talking about the difference kind of jobs you can find in cloud native land. This time, I’m your host, Nicolas Lane and with me are Brian Liles. [0:00:57.1] BL: Howdy. [0:00:58.0] NL: And Carlisia Campos. [0:00:59.6] CC: Hi everybody, glad to be here. [0:01:02.6] NL: How’s it going you all? [0:01:03.7] CC: Very good. [0:01:05.4] NL: Cool. To get us started, let’s talk about our jobs and like what it means to have a job and like the cloud native land from our current perspective. Brian, you want to go ahead and kick us off? [0:01:17.8] BL: Wow, cloud native jobs. What is my job? My job is – I look at productivity of developers and people who are using Kubernetes. My job is to understand cloud native apps but also understand that the systems that they are running on are complex and whether they’d be Windows or Linux or Mac based, being able to understand those too. Really, my job is the combination of a senior developer, composed with a senior level admin. Whether it be Windows or Linux. Maybe I am the actual epitome of DevOps. [0:01:58.5] NL: Yeah you seem to be kind of fusion of the two. Carlisia? [0:02:03.3] CC: My job is – so I’m mainly a developer but to do the job that I need to do, I need to be a bit of a DevOps person as well because as I’ve talked many times here on the show, I work on an open source too called Valero that does backup and recovery for Kubernetes clusters. I need to be able to boot up our cluster at least with three main providers. Azure, Google Cloud Platform, and AWS. I need to know how to do that, how to tweak things, how to troubleshoot things and I don’t think when we think of just a straight up developer, that usually is not part of the daily activity. In that sense, I think, I’m not sure how we would define the cloud native job but I think my job, if there is such a thing, my job definitely is a cloud native job because I have to interact with these cloud native technologies, even beyond what I – the actual app that I’m developing which runs inside a Kubernetes cluster so it all ties in. You Nick? [0:03:16.0] NL: My job is I’m a cloud native architect or a Kubernetes architect, I’m not sure what we’re calling ourselves these days honestly. What that means is we work with customers to help them along their cloud native journey. Either that means helping them set up like a Kubernetes cluster and then getting them like running with certain tools that are going to make there life easier or helping them develop tools in their cloud environments to help make the running of their jobs easier. We kind of run the gamut of developers and sys. admins a bit and consultants. We kind of touch a little bit of everything. Let’s take a step back now and talk about what we think a cloud native job looks like? Because for me, that’s kind of hard to describe. A cloud native job seems to be any job that has to do with some cloud native technology but that’s kind of broad, right? You could have things from sysadmins, people who are running their cloud infrastructure for the company who are like managing things like, you know, rights access, accounting, that sort of thing, to people who are doing development like yourselves, like Brian and Carlisia, you guys are doing this type of work. Is there anything that you think is like unique to a cloud native job? [0:04:35.2] CC: Yeah, it’s very interesting to talk about I think because especially in relation to if you don’t have a cloud native job, what do you have and how is it different? I wonder if the new cloud native job title is the new full stack developer for developers because, I think it’s easier to conceptualize what a cloud native job is for a systems admin or dev ops person. But for developer, I think it’s a little more tricky, right? Is it the new full stack? Is it now that the developer even if you’re not doing – for example, my application runs inside Kubernetes, it’s an extension of Kubernetes but some applications just run on Kubernetes as a platform. Now, are we talking about developers with a cloud native title like ‘cloud native software engineer’ and for those developers, does it mean that they now have to design, code and deploy consistently? You know, in my old days, when I – before doing this type of work, I would deploy apps but it was not all the time. There was a system, every single job I had, the system was different. The one thing that I love about Kubernetes is that if I was just a regular app developer, again as supposed to like extending Kubernetes, right? If I was building apps that would run on Kubernetes as supposed to extending Kubernetes, and if I had to deploy them at Kubernetes, if I move jobs and they were working with Kubernetes, this process would be exactly the same and that’s one really cool thing about. I wouldn’t mind – in other words, I wouldn’t mind so much if I had to do deployment in the deployment, the process was the same everywhere. Because it’s really painful to do like a one off deployment here and there, each place was different, I had to write a ton of notes to make sure, you know – it was like, 200 stacks and if anyone of them, you had to troubleshoot and I’m not a systems admin so it will be a struggle. [0:06:44.6] BL: Yeah. [0:06:45.8] CC: Because each system – it’s not that I couldn’t learn but each system would be different and I make – anyway, I think I went off on a tangent. [0:06:53.1] NL: No worries. [0:06:54.1] CC: But I also wanted to mention that I searched on LinkedIn for cloud native in the jobs section and there are a ton of job titles, job postings with cloud native in the title like a lot of it is architect but there is also product manager, there is also software engineer, I found the one that was senior Kubernetes engineer. It’s definitely a thing. [0:07:21.0] BL: All right. What is the question here? [0:07:25.6] NL: It was what do we think a cloud native job looks like essentially? [0:07:29.6] BL: All right. I’m going to blow your mind here. Basically, what is the cloud? The cloud is other people’s computers. It's LPC and what is Kubernetes? Well, basically, it’s a way that we can run our software on other people’s computers, AKA the cloud. Kubernetes makes running software in the cloud easier. What that really breaks down to is if you are writing software on other people’s computers or if you were designing software that runs well on clouds, well, you’re a cloud native person. Actually, the term is basically been co opted for marketing purposes by who knows who.Basically, everyone. But what I think is, as long as you are working on software that runs on modern infrastructure which means that nodes may go away, you might not own all of your services, you might use a least database server, you know, something like RDS from Amazon. Everyone working in that realm, working with software that may go away with things that aren’t theirs, was doing cloud native work. We just happen to be doing on Kubernetes because that’s the most popular option right now. It isn’t the only option and it probably won’t be the final option. [0:08:48.7] CC: Do you see any difference between what is required for a job like that today? Versus maybe 10 years ago or five years ago? Brian? [0:08:58.0] BL: Yeah, actually, I do see some differences. One of the biggest differences is that there’s a lot more services out there that are provided to help you do what you need to do and so 10 years ago, having a database provider would be hard because one, the network wouldn’t be good enough and you’re hosting company probably didn’t have that unless you were at AWS and even they didn’t have that. Now, what we get to take advantage off is things are just easier, it’s easier to fire up databases, it’s easier to add nodes to our production. It’s easier to have multiple productions, it’s easier to keep that all in order. It’s easier to put automated configuration around that than it was 10 years ago. Now, five years ago, back in 2014, I would actually say that the way that we progressed since then is that we became more mature. I remember when Kubernetes came out and I thought it was going to win but Mesosphere was, mesosphere with Aurora, or marathon was actually better than Kubernetes, just it worked out of the box, for what we thought we could do with it but now, what we have now is we know what we can do with distributed computing and now we have a great set of software for multiple vendors who allow us to do what we want to do. That’s the best part about now versus five years ago. [0:10:17.7] CC: Yeah, I have to agree with that, it’s definitely easier. As a developer, I’m not going to tell you it’s easy but it’s easier. As an example. I remember when that was Rails Rumble maybe 10 years ago, I don’t know. [0:10:31.3] BL: Yeah, I remember. [0:10:34.0] CC: You did a video showing step by step how to boot up a Linux server to run apps on that server. I don’t remember why we needed to boot up from scratch. Remember that Brian? [0:10:46.9] BL: I do remember that. That was 2007 or eight? It was a long time ago. [0:10:53.0] CC: That was one of the place that made me very impressed about you because I followed all the steps and at the end it worked. You just was – you were right on with – as far as the instructions went. I think doing that, I think it took me about two hours, I remember it took a long time and because this again, these are things that I do once in a while, I don’t do these things all the time. Now, we can use a Terraform script and have something running in a matter of 15 minutes if you have. [0:11:26.9] BL: Side bar. Quick side bar. Yeah, we can use Terraform. I use Terraform for even all my personal infrastructure so things that are running in my house use Terraform. All my work stuff uses Terraform. But still, it’s sometimes easier to just write a script or type in the commands on the command line or click something. We’re still not to the point where using things like Terraform actually makes us not want to do it manually. That’s how I know that we’re not to our ultimate level maturity yet. But, if you want to, the options are there and they’re pretty good. [0:12:01.8] CC: Yeah. [0:12:03.6] NL: Carlisia, you said something that kind of reminded me and maybe kind of get down this path. While we’re talking about like there are certain challenges that we aren’t faced anymore in a cloud native land like things are easier, there are certain things that are easier, not to say that our jobs are easy, like you’re saying Carlisia. But it was something along the lines of like a developer now needs to be – like a cloud native job is now the full stack kind of job or full stack developer. That was the name of the game back in the day, now, it’s a cloud native job. I actually kind of agree with that in a sense where a cloud native developer or anyone in the cloud native realm has to exist not just in their own silo anymore. You need to understand more of the infrastructure that you’re using to write your code on someone else’s computer better. I actually kind of like that. [0:12:56.6] CC: Exactly. [0:12:58.0] NL: Yeah, there are certain challenges now in cloud native that are gone so the things that were hard before like spinning up a server, you know, getting the database, these things are gone and that now that frees us to worry about more complicated or more abstract ideas like how do we have everyone agree on the API to use and thus rises Kubernetes. [0:13:19.1] CC: Yeah, I see that as a very positive thing. It might sound like – it’s a huge burden to ask developers to now have to now this but again, if we stick to the same stack, the burden diminishes really quickly because you learn it once and then that’s it. That’s been a huge advantage. If it works out this way, I mean, I’m all for like you know, the best technology should win. But there is that advantage. If we remain using the same container orchestrator, you know, we use containers, we can run our code as if we were running any machine. One advantage that I see is that I’ve had cases where you know, these was working on my computer (™) and it will be deployed and one little stupid thing wouldn’t work because the way the URL was redirected, didn’t work, broke things, I got yelled at. I’m like, “Okay, you want me to do this right? Give me a server.” Back then, good luck, “I’m going to give you a server, no way.” It was just so expensive, developers will be lucky to get a tasking of our staging environments. And, even when you get there, you had to coordinate with QA and there was a process. Now, because I have access to my own servers here, right? I can just imagine if I were a developer, building apps to run Kubernetes, admin could just say, “Okay, you have these resources, go for it.” I’ll have my own name space and I could run my code as if it was running and a production environment and I’ll have just more assurance that my code works basically. Which is to me so satisfying. It’s one less thing to worry about if I deploy something to production, I have already tested it. [0:15:17.3] NL: Yeah, that’s great. That’s something I really do cherish about the current landscape. We can actually test these things out locally and have confidence that they’ll work at least fairly well in production, right? [0:15:30.2] CC: It’s not just running things locally, you can actually get access to like a little slice of let’s say an AWS server and just shift your things there and test it there. But because these system admins people, they can just carve out that little one slice for your team of even in the per person basis, maybe that’s too much but it’s relatively uncomplicated to do that and not very costly. [0:15:56.9] NL: Yeah. You mentioned a team and the name of a team that I haven’t heard of in quite some time which is QA. How do we think the rise of cloud native have affected jobs and also kind of tangential to that, what were jobs like prior to cloud native because I haven’t heard of a QA team in many of the organizations that I’ve touched. Now, I’m not touching their like production dev team that they actually make this, I just haven’t heard of that name in a while and I’m wondering if like jobs like that have kind of gone away with the rise of cloud native. [0:16:27.7] BL: No, I’m going to end that rumor right here, that is a whole untruth. [0:16:33.8] NL: That was not a rumor, I’ve just conjecture I my part, literally unfounded. [0:16:38.7] BL: We got to think what does QA do? QA is supposed to be responsible for the quality of our applications and when they first started, there wasn’t a lot of good tooling so a lot of our QA people were manual testers. They started the app, they clicked on everything, they put in all the inputs until it came back and they were professional app breakers. I’d say, over a decade ago, we got more automated tools and moving into now, you can automate your web browser, you can actually write software to do all the actions that a human would do. What we found is that QA as profession has actually matured and you can see that because Google, I don’t think they even have QA, they have, what do they call them? Software engineers under test or SDE’s. What they do are – they’re developers in their own right but they write software that makes it easier for developers to write code that works well and a code that can be tested. I think that the roll has matured and has taken another angle in a lot of cases but even where we work. There are QA engineers in our group and we still need them because you’ve seen the meme where you talk about unit testing and it would be like a door that had all the right parts but it didn’t fit in it’s casing or too hot handles on a sink. The pieces work right? They both put out hot water but together they didn’t work. We still have that, it just looks a little bit different now. Also, a lot of software is not written in a huge monolithic cycle where we would take six months to release anew version or a year or a year and a half. Now, people are trying to turn around a lot of software quicker so QA has had to optimize how they work to work in those processes. They’re still there though. [0:18:37.8] CC: I would hope so. I mean, I can’t answer the question if the question is do we have as much QA efforts out there as before. I don’t know, but I hope so because if you don’t have a QA, if you’re not QAing your apps, then you’re users are. That’s not good. For my team for example, we do our own QA but we do QA. We don’t have separate people doing it, we do it ourselves. It might be just because it’s pretty special, I mean, we are a small team to begin with and what we do is very specialized. It will be difficult to bring someone in and teach them and if they’re just running QA, I don’t know, maybe – I don’t think it will be that difficult, we can just have constructions, you know. “Run this command, this is what the output should be” – I don’t’ think it would be that difficult, take that back, but still, we do it ourselves. [0:19:31.7] NL: The question was more – less in line with like, “What happened to QA?” It was more like, how do we think that cloud native has affected jobs and the job market and it sounds like, that jobs have changed because of cloud native, they’ve matured as we were just discussing with QA where people aren’t doing the same kind of drudgery or the same kind of toil that they were doing before. Now, we’re using more tooling to do our jobs and kind of lifting up each position to be more cloud native-y, right? More development and infrastructure focus at the same time. At least, that’s what I was getting from it. [0:20:09.8] BL: Yeah, I think that is true but I think all types of development jobs, especially jobs that are in the cloud native space have changed. One good example would be, with organizations moving to cloud native apps, we’re starting to see, and this is all anecdotal, I have no evidence to back this up, that there are more developers who are on call for the software they write because one, they know it better than anyone else and they’re closer to it. And two, because having an ops group that just supports app isn’t conducive to being productive because there’s no way that one group can understand all apps. What we’re finding is that in this new cloud native era that jobs are maturing and they’re getting new functionality, they’re losing some functionality, some jobs are combining but it’s still at the end of the day, it’s the same thing we were doing 20 years ago but it all just has new titles and we use new software to do it. Which is good. Because on some of these ideas that we came up with, 20, 30 years ago are still good ones today. [0:21:15.5] NL: Yeah, that’s actually an interesting question. Do you think that it’s just the titles that are changing or are the functions changing, right? It’s like sys admins used to be sys admins, now they’re CREs, well then there are dev ops for a while and now they’re CRE’s, more SRA’s I should say. Our support team are now CREs, Customer Reliability Engineering. Is that just a title change or are there functional differences? I’m inclined to believe that they’re functional differences. [0:21:43.9] BL: I think it’s both, I think it’s the same reason why all engineers after two years in the field are somehow senior engineers. People feel like they have progress when they get new titles even though you’re the most junior engineer on this team, how can you be a senior engineer? And then also the same thing with CRE, shout out to Google for making that term popular but really, what it comes down to is maybe the focus changed but maybe it didn’t. Maybe we were already doing that, maybe we were already doing resilience engineering with our customers and maybe we already had great customer support or customer success team. But I do think that there has been some changes in jobs because what we’re finding is that with modern languages that people are using so teams are moving away from C++ to things like Swift and Go and Rust. We’re finding that because our software is easier to write, we actually don’t have to think about some of the things that we did before. With Go, technically, you don‘t have to worry about memory access. With Rust, 100%, you don’t have to worry about null pointer exceptions, they don’t exist. Now that we freed our developers to do more development rather than more debugging, then what we can find is that the jobs will actually change over time. But at the end of the day, and even where we work right now and then all over the place, people are devs, they do ops stuff, they do security stuff or they’re pointing here at Boston. I challenge anyone listening to this to find something where I am not telling the truth, we might do both or more than one thing but at the end of the day, we can still break it down to what people do. [0:23:24.8] NL: Yeah, Carlisia, any thoughts on that? [0:23:26.1] CC: No, I think that was nice with me, sounds right. [0:23:29.8] NL: Yeah, I agree. I think that there are some functional changes. I think that support versus CRE isn’t just like getting tickets received and then going to a ticket queue and filing those things. I think there are some changes with like, I know from our CRE team they are actively going out and saying like, “Here’s our opinion based on these technologies and this is like why we validated these things,” that are reevaluating their support model constantly and just making sure that they’re like abreast of everything that’s going on so they can more resiliently engineer their customer support. [0:24:04.5] BL: But hold on, one second though. That’s what I’m talking about with the marketing because guess what? It is supported, a good support team would be doing all those things whether it’s called customer reliability engineering or whatever, it’s support, it’s customer success, it’s getting in front of our customer’s problems and having the answers before they even ask the question, that’s good support. Whenever we label things like CRE, that’s somebody and some corporate marketing center who thought that that was a good idea. But it doesn’t mean because you don’t call that CRE, it’s not good support because I will tell you in the past, DigitalOcean, we did that and the term CRE didn’t even exist yet but we were out there in front of problems whenever we could be and we thought that was good for our customers. What we’re finding is that people have the capabilities now with the progress of whatever technologies we have that we can actually give our customers good support, and you don’t have to be a Google sized company to do that anymore, that’s the plus. [0:25:02.9] NL: Yeah, I agree with that. [0:25:05.5] CC: I want us to talk a little bit about for people who are not working in a cloud native space but they see it coming or they want to move towards doing something more in that area, what should they be looking at? What should that be brushing up on their learning or incorporating into their what they are currently doing and of course different roles and so it will be different for each different role. We have developers we have DevOps or SRE or admins or operators, managers, recruiters. It changes a little bit for everybody. [0:25:47.5] BL: Well I will hop in here first and say it is all code at the end of the day. When it comes down to what we are doing in cloud native for ops, it doesn’t really matter. You could take a lot of the same principles and do them on prem or wherever else you happen to be. I mean I am not trying to diminish the role of anyone that we work with or anyone in our industry whenever I say this though but when it comes down to it, what I see is people understand the operating system, mostly Linux. People understand public key encryption so they understand PKI, you know we deal with a lot of certs. They understand networking, they can tell you how many IPs are in a 23 and if I am giving you side or numbers out there. These are things that people know. I don’t think there is anything specific for cloud native other than learning Kubernetes itself or Mesosphere or Docker, Swarm or whatever or the tool from HashiCorp that always escapes me whenever I have to say it out loud. But it is all the same thing. What you need to know and to be good at any job where you are doing ops, you need to understand the theory of operating computers. You need to understand operating systems, networking and how that all works and then all things around and some security. For developers now, it is a little bit interesting because a lot of the apps that we are writing these days are more stateless. So for a developer you need to think more about my app may crash. So anything that I am holding a memory that is important can go away at any given time. So either, one, I need to store it on more than one thing, I need to have it in a restrictive fashion or, two, I need to store it in the database instantly And I would once again challenge anyone to say that if you are a developer who can actually understand those topics, you would be able to apply for a cloud native job in this space because frankly a lot of developers, a lot of cloud native developers writing apps working cloud native, two years ago they were doing something else. [0:27:50.1] CC: Yeah that sounds right. I think for developers where you said I think focusing on authentication, how do you handle secret keys and the question of row authentication and row authorization and if you can even be well-versed in developing clients and servers and handling certs for that interaction and I guess it comes down to being well-versed in distributed systems development is what this whole cloud native is all about and on top of that I think being well-versed on how to push your apps into containers. You know create images, creating containers, pushing them into repository, pulling them from the repository and manipulating and creating containers in different ways and then on top of that maybe you want to learn Kubernetes and we can talk about that too but I wanted to give Nick a chance to talk about his aspects. [0:28:59.0] NL: I agree with pretty much everything you guys have said. I think the only thing I would add is like really understanding how to use and work with an API and an API driven environment because that is what a lot of cloud native is, right? It is using someone else’s computer so how do you do that? It is via an API like we’re talking about containers and orchestration, those are all done hopefully within API. Luckily, if you are using Kubernetes, which likely you are. It is all API driven. And so using an API, I think, and getting familiar with that. Most developers I think at some point are familiar with that but just that would be the main thing I would think too, outside of what you and Brian have already said are what is needed to do like a cloud native job. [0:29:40.2] CC: Yeah. Now if someone wanted to learn Kubernetes, well there is the Kubernetes Academy. [0:29:47.5] NL: There is a Kubernetes Academy. [0:29:49.4] CC: That is pretty awesome but do you think going through the certification would help? [0:29:55.3] NL: I think that is a good place to start. So the current certification that exists is the CKA, the Certified Kubernetes Administrator and I think that is a good starting place, especially for someone who is not really touched Kubernetes before. If they’re like, “How do I know the basics of Kubernetes?” going through that certification process I think will be a huge step forward because that really covers most of what you are going to touch on day to day basis for Kubernetes. [0:30:21.6] CC: And there is the CKAD as well, which is for developer. The CKAD is Certified Kubernetes – [0:30:29.7] BL: Application Developer. [0:30:31.7] CC: Application Developer and the other one is Certified Kubernetes Admin. [0:30:34.9] NL: Yeah I was like, “administrative developer?” like. [0:30:38.2] CC: If you are brand new I think it is worth while doing the developer first because it is mostly the commands. You go through the commands just so you have a knowledge of how to interact with Kubernetes and the admin is more like how you manage and how do you troubleshoot a cluster and how do you manage cluster. So it is more involved I think. You need to know more but in any case, I agree with you that it would help because it serves as a syllabus for what to learn. It is like, “Okay, these other things that if you know these things, it would help you a lot if you had to do anything with Kubernetes.” [0:31:14.6] NL: Yeah, I don’t think that you need to have a certification to do a job. I really don’t think so unless it is like required by law like you have to. [0:31:23.2] CC: No, yeah not at all what I am saying but if you don’t know anything at all and you’re like, “Where do I start?” I would recommend that. That is not a bad place to start or if you know some things but you feel like you don’t know others and you want to fill in the gaps and you don’t know what your gaps are, also same idea. What do you think Brian? Do you think having this certification would be useful? [0:31:46.5] BL: I don’t know, some people need it but I am also barely graduated from high school and I don’t have a college degree. So I have always leaned on myself for learning things on my own schedule, in my own pace on my own terms but some people do need the structure provided to them by certifications and I’ve only heard good things of people taking those tests. So I think for some people it is actually really good but for others, it might be a waste of time because what will actually happen if you get that certification? If you work at some large companies, I do know this for a fact by getting your AWS certificates actually had a money thing behind it but in a lot of places I don’t know but it couldn’t hurt. That is the most important piece. It can’t hurt. [0:32:36.3] NL: Yeah, I totally agree. You learn at least something even when I am taking a certification exam for something that I was already pretty aware of, I always learned at least one thing by taking like an examination. The last good question that you likely have never even thought off but I also agree with Brian where it is like I don’t have my CKA and I think I am a pretty damn good expert of Kubernetes. So I don’t think anything would change for me to take the exam. [0:33:00.2] CC: Oh yeah. I work with so many people who have none of those sort of certifications and they are absolutely experts. I was talking about like it would help me. I want to take those two certifications because it helped me fill in the gaps and I know there is a lot that I am going to learn especially with the admin one. So it is using the curriculum as a guide for what I need to learn and then testing, did I really learn and also it made me feel good but other than that, I don’t think it has any – I don’t know, I don’t think it is bad either. [0:33:33.4] BL: And that is the most important piece, what you just said, it made you feel good because you take certifications to test your knowledge against yourself in a lot of cases. So I think it is good. I just realized you can – I mean people cannot see behind me. I don’t think I have as many books as Carlisia’s up there but I have read all mine except for like four of them. [0:33:52.6] CC: Yeah, I did not read all of these books. I mean a lot of these books are school related books that I kept because they are really good and books that I have acquired and I have read ome but not all the entire book. Some things I use for reference but definitely have not read. Don’t be impressed, I have not read all of these books. Hopefully one day when I retire maybe. Anyway – [0:34:17.7] BL: I think that one interesting thing would be the amount of study that you need to do to gain a certification when you are not working in the space actually gives you that little bit of push that you need to make sure that you understand that you know what you need to know. So if you organically came to cloud native as I did, as I’ll explain in my story, you know I am not really interested in that certification. But if I wanted to change, and maybe I wanted to change my focus to doing more graphic stuff and there was a certification for this, maybe I would think about it just to make sure that I knew I was eligible for these jobs that I am trying for, so. [0:34:57.8] CC: Yeah. [0:34:58.8] NL: Yeah, that makes sense. Also, my books are over there and I have read most of the way through many of my books but not all the way through because a lot of them are boring. [0:35:09.5] BL: But I will say and since we are talking about books and talking about getting yourself into Kubernetes land, right now is actually the best time to buy books because there is lots of them and I am not actually saying that these books are super awesome but some of them are. Notably this Programming Kubernetes book is pretty awesome and the reason it is so awesome is because my quote is on the back of it. [0:35:33.3] NL: I was going to say. [0:35:34.4] BL: Yeah, my name is on the back of it and then another book that I just picked up lately is called The Kubernetes Cookbook and it is for building cloud native applications from O’Reilly and the reason that I like it is because I have always, since I mean 20 years ago, I love creating O’Reilly cookbooks because small problem, answer with an exclamation, and then there is another one called Kubernetes Patterns, which I just started and I think it is pretty good too. And just to say that these are not endorsements but this is what I am reading right now. It is like a thousand pages here. The things that I am trying to get through right now to keep up to date with what we are trying to do because actually the biggest problem with what we are doing is that we are trail blazing. So a lot of the things that are happening, like the way that Kubernetes advances every few months is new, new, new, new. So there is not a lot of higher art in what we are doing that is public. So what you need to do is turn yourself into someone who actually understands the theory of what we are doing rather than the practical application of it. Understand that piece too but you got to understand the theory, which is why I said I’ve literally doing the same thing for the last 25 years because I learned how to program and I learned a Unix and then I learned Linux and then I learned networking. Take all of those lessons and I can apply them all the time. So that is actually the most important part about any of this. [0:36:56.9] CC: Yeah, I agree with you like going through the fundamentals helps so much more than going through the specifics and in fact, trying to learn specifics without having fundamentals it can be very painful but then you try to learn the fundamentals and then you go, “Oh yeah, it totally makes sense. I have been trying to listen to YouTube lectures on the server systems and I have a lot of moments of, “Ah that is why Kubernetes works this way to address this problem.” And I have that programming book, which is not in my office. I have to find it but yes that is a very good book, I have this. [0:37:37.9] BL: Oh Cloud Native DevOps with Kubernetes. That is another good book. [0:37:43.5] CC: Yes. [0:37:44.3] BL: I have it too. [0:37:46.3] CC: I have like that as one? [0:37:47.6] BL: Yes. [0:37:48.2] CC: Good book and this, I haven’t gotten through it yet. [0:37:52.7] BL: It is called Kubernetes in Action. [0:37:54.3] CC: Yes, thank you for saying the name because if you are not in the video you wouldn’t know. [0:37:58.5] BL: So really what we are saying now – [0:37:59.7] CC: People say great things about the Kubernetes in Action, this one. [0:38:02.9] BL: So I actually want to bring up another thing and say, I read a lot. I like to read. I read a lot of blog posts and here is another crazy thing, the YouTube videos from like KubeCon every year or every few months, we publish a 180 talks for free and there is some good lessons in those. So the good thing about getting into cloud native is that you can get into it for cheap because all of this information out here Kubernetes source is free. Go read it. I mean 5,000 developers have worked on it. I am sure you will get a lot out of that, go do that but like YouTube talks, blog post, just following your favorite SIGK’s, Special Interest Group for Kubernetes, their community meetings. You can learn so much about how this space works and really how to write software in it without spending a dime other than have a computer and Internet. [0:38:55.5] CC: Yeah and I am going to give a tip for people that I actually caught on not too long ago. I subscribed to YouTube premium, which I think is $5 a month. It is the best $5 I have ever spent because really I don’t have time to sit in front of a video unless it is very special and just watch something and reading is also very – after I spend a whole day reading codes, my mind doesn’t want to read anything else. So I love podcasts and I listen to a lot of podcast. And now the YouTube videos are even have been more educational to me because the premium version of YouTube is if your phone locks it will still play. [0:39:40.2] BL: And you can download the videos. [0:39:42.0] CC: You can download the videos too. Yeah if you go on a camping trip or airplane you have them so it’s been fantastic. I just put my headset, my little Bluetooth headset and as I am doing laundry or as I’m cooking or anything, I am always listening to something. There goes the tip. [0:40:01.9] NL: Yeah, I totally agree. I love YouTube premium. No ads as Brian said is the best. I am going to throw out a book recommendation, one written by my colleague and a good friend, Craig Tracy, or co-written called Managing Kubernetes and it is actually like I was saying that these tech books are kind of boring, this one is actually a lot of fun to read. It is written well in a way that I found I kept turning at the page. So I really liked it. [0:40:26.3] BL: Yeah, it is only 150 pages too. [0:40:29.3] NL: Yeah that is pretty short. [0:40:30.5] BL: And the software that Carlisia writes is the last chapter of it, the next to last chapter so. [0:40:37.6] NL: Oh shoot, all right throw it out then. [0:40:40.4] BL: Well no, I am just saying it is another good book and I like the way you bring this up because this information is out there but I know were coming close to the end and I had one thing that I want to talk about today. [0:40:50.3] NL: I was just about to bring that up, please take us away. [0:40:52.3] BL: All right, so we talked about where we come from and we talked about things in the space about the jobs, how we keep up to date but really, the most important piece is what happens in the future. You know Kubernetes is only five years old so theoretically cloud native jobs are only a few years old. So how does cloud native move in the future and I do have some thoughts on this one. So what we are going to see is what we have seen over the last two decades is that our stacks will get more complex, we will run more apps, we will have more CPU’s and more networking and it is not even Morris Law stuff. We’ll just have more stuff. So what I find is that in the future, what we need to think about are things like automation. We need to think about better resilience. Apps that can actually take care of themselves. So your app goes down, what happens? Well nothing because it brought itself back up. So I see that the jobs that we have now are just going to evolve into better versions of what we have right now. So developers will still be developing. The more interesting piece is that we are going to have more developers because more people are taking these boot camp courses, more people are going into computer science in school. So we are actually going to have more developers out there. So all that means is that we are just going to have more problems to solve at least for the next few years. The generation from now, I couldn’t tell you what is going to happen. Maybe we will all be out of work. I will be retired so I probably won’t care but just think about this. Now is the literal best time to get into writing software and specifically for cloud native applications whether you are in operations or you are writing applications that run on clouds or anything like this. This is the best time because it is still beginning and there is more work to do than we have people and if you look through jobs postings you’ll realize that wow, everyone is looking for this. [0:42:48.3] CC: Yeah and at the same time, there is a sufficient amount of resources out there for you to learn even if you don’t want to – if you want to or you can’t pay. We now are so much at the beginning that there is nothing so it is a very good time. [0:43:04.6] NL: Yeah, the wealth of knowledge is out there that is for free is unheard of. It is unprecedented and yeah, I totally agree that this is the best time. Brian, if we go by your thesis throughout this entire episode, basically we are going to be doing the same thing in 20 years as we are doing now. It is the same thing we did 20 years ago. So it is probably going to be like you said, developers are going to develop-ate, sys admins are going to sys administrate. [0:43:28.6] CC: I love that. [0:43:30.1] BL: And security people are going to complain about everything. [0:43:33.4] NL: That is how we are going to change. So we are just going to be running on like quantum applications in 20 years but they are still going to be if/else statements. [0:43:41.1] CC: My prediction is that we are going to have greater server access, like easier server access, and especially developers and there will be more buttons to press and more visual tools so you don’t have to be necessarily logging into a server to command lines that we have more tools abstracting all of that detailed work that develops. [0:44:07.0] BL: So more abstractions on top of abstractions. [0:44:10.1] CC: Yeah that is my prediction. Why not? [0:44:13.3] BL: Well you know what? I mean if that is true because that is what we have been doing forever now so we are going to continue on doing this thing. [0:44:20.0] CC: Because it is what people want. [0:44:22.0] BL: Because it works. [0:44:23.0] CC: Yeah, it makes life easier for some people. I don’t see why we wouldn’t move in that direction but before we wrap up, unless you guys want to make predictions too, I really wanted to touch base on the hiring side of things. The recruiters and hiring managers before interviewing, I can’t imagine there is a whole bunch of people out there who need to recruit people to do these cloud native jobs and how can we help them? Like can we give them some tips? How can they attract people? What should they be looking for? [0:45:03.4] NL: Well, I guess my thought is that I really feel like recruiters need to start learning the technology that they are hiring for. I don’t think that they can hide behind the idea that they’re recruiters and they don’t need to know. If you want to hire good people, if you want to weed out the bad people or whatever it is that you are trying to do, you need to actually learn the technology that you are hiring for and I think like we are saying, there is now a wealth of knowledge that is free for you to access, please look. [0:45:32.9] CC: I am not going to disagree with that. [0:45:34.3] BL: And the interesting thing is when he says learn it, he doesn’t mean that you have to be able to produce it but you should understand how it works at the minimum. [0:45:42.8] NL: Yeah and also know when someone’s BS-ing you in the text screen. [0:45:48.2] CC: But it is not easy because you might be going in the direction with the intention of learning and you might misunderstand things and you know how deep do you have to go to not misunderstand the technology? [0:46:06.1] BL: You know what? I don’t think there is an answer for that. I think it is just you don’t know and there is something in between being an expert. You need to be something in between where if you’re hiring for cloud native in Kubernetes, you can’t offer a job that wants 10 years of Kubernetes experience. First of all, Kubernetes is huge and no one has all Kubernetes experience throughout the whole stack and second of all, Kubernetes is only five years old. So please don’t do that to yourself as well. So you should know how old it is and at least know the parts and what your team is going to be working on but for managers, wow, actually I don’t have a good answer for that. So I am just going to I’ll plan on that one. [0:46:45.1] CC: Well, how would it be different? Actually it is going to sound like I asked a loaded question but I just now had this realization. I don’t think it would be different from what we were saying in regards to giving tips for people to prepare themselves, to make a move into this space if they are not working with any of this stuff. It will be the same, like try to find people who know distributed systems, they can debug well. I am not even to go into working well with people. That is such a given. Let’s just keep it to the text stack and all of those things that we recommended for people to learn, I don’t know. [0:47:26.0] BL: Yeah, it sounds good to me. [0:47:28.1] NL: All right, well I think that just about wraps it up for this week of the podcast, the Kubelets Podcast. I thought this was a really interesting discussion. It was cool to talk about where we were and where we are going and you know, and what brought us all together as I said. [0:47:44.2] CC: Nick, do you want to share with us what your tagline for this episode was? [0:47:48.1] NL: Yeah, the tagline for this episode is CREAM: Cash Rules Everything Around Me. [0:47:53.3] BL: Dollar-dollar bills you all. [0:47:55.8] CC: Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching [0:47:58.8] NL: All right, thank you so much. Thank you Brian, thanks for joining us. [0:48:03.9] BL: Thank you for having me. [0:48:05.3] NL: Yeah and thank you Carlisia. [0:48:07.6] CC: This was really good, thank you. [0:48:09.7] NL: Yeah, I had a lot of fun. Bye, y’all. [0:48:13.5] BL: Bye. [0:48:14.1] CC: Bye. [END OF EPISODE] [0:48:14.8] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Past, Present and Future of Kubernetes with Craig McLuckie (Ep 13)

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 20, 2020 46:56

Today on The Podlets Podcast, we are joined by VMware's Vice President of Research and Development, Craig McLuckie! Craig is also a founder of Heptio, who were acquired by VMware and during his time at Google he was part of bringing Kubernetes into being. Craig has loads of expertise and shareable experience in the cloud native space and we have a fascinating chat with him, asking about his work, Heptio and of course, Kubernetes! Craig shares some insider perspective on the space, the rise of Kubernetes and how the increase in Kubernetes' popularity can be managed. We talk a lot about who can use Kubernetes and the prerequisites for implementation; Craig insists it is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. We also get into the lack of significantly qualified minds and how this is impacting competition in the hiring pool. Craig comments on taking part in the open source community and the buy-in that is required to meaningfully contribute as well as sharing his thoughts on the need to ship new products and services regularly. We finish off the episode with some of Craig's perspectives on the future of Kubernetes, dangers it poses to code if neglected and the next phase of its lifespan. For this amazing chat with a true expert in his field, make sure to join us on for this episode! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Special guest: Craig McLuckie Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Josh Rosso Key Points From This Episode: • A brief introduction to Craig's history and his work in the cloud native space. • The questions that Craig believes more people should be asking about Kubernetes. • Weighing the explosion of the Kubernetes space; fragmentation versus progress. • The three pieces of enterprise software and aiming to enlarge the 'crystalline core'.• Craig's thoughts on specialized Kubernetes operating systems and their tradeoffs. • Quantifying the readiness of an organization to implement Kubernetes. • Craig's reflections on Heptio and the lessons he feels he learned in the process.• The skills shortage for Kubernetes and how companies are approaching this issue. • Balancing the needs and level of the community and shipping products regularly.• Involvement in the open source community and the leap of faith that is inherent in the process. • The question of microliths; making monoliths more complex and harder to manage. • Masking problems with Kubernetes and how detrimental this can be to your code. • Craig's thoughts on the future of the Kubernetes space and possible changes.• The two duty cycles of any technology; the readiness phase that follows the hype. Quotes: “I think Kubernetes has opened it up, not just in terms of the world of applications that can run Kubernetes, but also this burgeoning ecosystem of supporting technologies that can create value.” — @cmcluck [0:06:20] “You're not a cool mainstream enterprise software provider if you don’t have a Kubernetes story today. I think we’ll start to see continued focus and consolidation around a set of the larger organizations that are operating in this space.” — @cmcluck [0:06:39] “We are so much better served as a software company if we can preserve consistency from environment to environment.” — @cmcluck [0:09:12] “I’m a fan of rendered down, container-optimized operating system distributions. There’s a lot of utility there, but I think we also need to be practical and recognize that enterprises have gotten comfortable with the OS landscape that they have.” — @cmcluck [0:14:54] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Craig McLuckie on LinkedIn Craig McLuckie on Twitter The Podlets on Twitter Kubernetes VMware Brendan Burns Cloud Native Computing Foundation Heptio Mesos Valero vSphere Red Hat IBM Microsoft Amazon KubeCon Transcript: EPISODE 13 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically-minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets podcast, and today we have a special guest, Craig McLuckie. Craig, I have the hardest time pronouncing your last name. You will correct me, but let me just quickly say, well, I’m Carlisia Campos and today we also have Duffy Colley and Josh Rosso on the show. Say that three times fast, Craig McLuckie. Please help us say your last name and give us a brief introduction. You are super well-known in the Kubernetes community and inside VMware, but I’m sure there are not enough people that should know about you that didn’t know about you. [00:01:20] CM: All right. I’ll do a very quick intro. Hi, I’m Craig McLuckie. I’m a Vice President of Research and Development here at VMware. Prior of VMware, I spent a fair amount of time at Google where my friend Joe and I were responsible for building and shipping Google Compute Engine, which was an interesting exercise in bringing traditional enterprise virtualized workloads into the very sophisticated Google data center. We then went ahead and as our next project with Brendan Burns, started Kubernetes, and that obviously worked out okay, and I was also responsible for the ideation and formation of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I then wanted to work with Joe again. So we started Heptio, a little startup in the Kubernetes ecosystem. Almost precisely a year ago, we were acquired by VMware. So I’m now part of the VMware company and I’m working on our broader strategy around cloud native apps under the brand [inaudible 00:02:10]. [00:02:11] CC: Let me start off with a question. I think it is going to be my go-to first question for every guest that we have in the show. Some people are really well-versed in the cloud native technologies and Kubernetes and some people are completely not. Some people are asking really good questions out there, and I try to too as I’m one of those people who are still learning. So my question for you is what do you think people are asking that they are not asking the right frame, that you wish they would be asking that question in a different way. [00:02:45] CM: It’s a very interesting question. I don’t think there’s any bad questions in the world, but one question I encountered a fair bit is, “Hey, I’ve heard about this Kubernetes thing and I want one.” I’m not sure it’s actually the right question, right? Kubernetes is a powerful technology. I definitely think we’re in this sort of peak hype phase of the project. There are a set of opportunities that Kubernetes really brings a much more robust ability to manage, it abstracts a way infrastructure — there are some very powerful things. But to be able to be really successful with Kubernetes project, there’re a number of additional ingredients that really need to be thought through. The questions that ought to be asked are, "I understand the utility of Kubernetes and I believe that it would bring value to my organization, but do I have the skills and capabilities necessary to stand up and run a successful Kubernetes program?" That’s something to really think about. It’s not just about the nature of the technology, but it really brings in a lot of new concepts that challenge organizations. If we think about applications that exist in Kubernetes, there’s challenges with observability. When you think the mechanics of delivering into a containerized sort of environment, there are a lot of dos and don’ts that make a ton of sense there. A lot of organizations I’ve worked with are excited about the technology, but they don’t necessarily have the depth of understanding of where it's best used and then how to operate it. The second addendum to that is, “Okay, I’m able to deploy Kubernetes, but what happens the next day? What happens if I need to update it? When I need to maintain it? What happens when I discover that I need not one Kubernetes cluster or even 10 Kubernetes clusters, but a hundred or a thousand or 10,000.” Which is what we are starting to see out there in the industry. “Have I taken the right first step on that journey to set me up for success in the long-term?” I do think there’s just a tremendous amount of opportunity and excitement around the technology, but also think it’s something that organizations really need to look at as not just about deploying a platform technology, but introducing the necessary skills that are necessary to operate and maintain it and the supporting technologies that are necessary to get the workloads on to it in a sustainable way. [00:04:42] JR: You’ve raised a number of assumptions around how people think about it I think, which are interesting. Even just starting with the idea of the packaging problem that represents containerization is a reasonable start. So infrequently, do we describe like the context of the problems that — all of the problems that Kubernetes solve that frequently I think people just get way ahead of themselves. It’s a pretty good description. [00:05:04] DC: So maybe in a similar vein, Craig, we had mentioned all the pieces that go into running Kubernetes successfully. You have to bolt some things on maybe for security or do some things to ensure observability as adequate, and it seems like the ecosystem has taken notice of all those needs and has built a million projects and products around that space. I’m curious of your thoughts on that because it’s like in one way it’s great because it shows it’s really healthy and thriving. In another way, it causes a lot of fragmentation and confusion for people who are thinking whether they can or cannot run Ku, because there are so many options out there to accomplish those kinds of things. So I was just curious of your general thoughts on that and where it’s headed. [00:05:43] CM: It’s fascinating to see the sort of burgeoning ecosystem around Kubernetes, and I think it’s heartening, because if you think at the very highest level, the world is going to go one of two ways with the introduction of the hyper-scale public cloud. It’s either going to lead us into a world which feels like mainframe era again, where no one ever got [inaudible 00:06:01] Amazon in this case, or by Microsoft, whatever the case. Whoever sort of merges over time as the dominant force. But it also represents some challenges where you have these vertically integrated closed systems, innovation becomes prohibitively difficult. It’s hard to innovate in a closed system, because you’re innovating only for organizations that have already taken that dependancy. I think Kubernetes has opened it up, not just in terms of the world of applications that can run Kubernetes, but also this burgeoning ecosystem of supporting technologies that can create value. There’s a reason why startups are building around Kubernetes. There’s a reason they’re looking to solve these problems. I do think we’ll see a continued period of consolidation. You're not a cool mainstream enterprise software provider if you don’t have a Kubernetes story today. I think we’ll start to see continued focus and consolidation around a set of the larger organizations that are operating in this space. It’s not accidental that Heptio is a part of VMware at this point. When I looked at the ecosystem, it was pretty clear we need to take a boat to fully materialize the value of Kubernetes and I am pleased to be part of this organization. So I do think you’ll start to see a variety of different vendors emerging with a pretty clear, well-defined opinions and relatively turnkey solutions that address the gamut of capabilities. One organization needs to get into Kubernetes. One of the things that delights me about Kubernetes is that if you are a sophisticated organization that is self-identifying as a software company, and this is sort of manifest in the internet space if you’re running a sort of hyper-scale internet service, you are kind of by definition a software company. You probably have the skills on hand to make great choices around what projects, follow the communities, identify when things are reaching point of critical mass. You’re running in a space where your system is relatively homogenous. You don’t have just the sort of massive gamut of workloads, a lot of dimension enterprise organizations have. There’s going to be different approaches to the ecosystem depending on which organization is looking at the problem space. I do think this is prohibitively challenging for a lot of organizations that are not resourced at the level of a hyper-scale internet company from a technology perspective, where their day job isn’t running a production service for millions or billions of users. I do think situations like that, it makes a tremendous amount of sense to identify and work with someone you trust in the ecosystem, that can help you just navigate the wild map that is the Kubernetes landscape, that can participate in a number of these emerging communities that has the ability to put their thumb on the scale where necessary to make sure that things converge. I think it’s situational. I think the lovely thing about Kubernetes is that it does give organizations a chance to cut their teeth without having to dig into like a deep procurement cyclewith a major vendor. We see a lot of self-service Kubernetes projects getting initiated. But at some point, almost inevitably, people need a little bit more help, and that’s the role of a lot of these vendors. I think that I truly hope that I’m personally committed to, is that as we start to see the convergence of this ecosystem, as we start to see the pieces falling into place, that we retain an emphasis on the value of community that we also sort of avoid the balkanization and fragmentation, which sometimes comes out of these types of systems. We are so much better served as a software company if we can preserve consistency from environment to environment. The reality is as we start looking at large organizations, enterprises that are consuming Kubernetes, it’s almost inevitable that they’re going to be consuming Kubernetes from a number of different sources. Whether the sources are cloud provider delivering Kubernetes services or whether they handle Kubernetes clusters that are dedicated centralized IT team is delivering or whether it’s vendor provided Kubernetes. There’s going to be a lot of different flavors and variants on it. I think working within the community not as king makers, but as concerned citizens that are looking to make sure that there are very high-levels of consistency from offering to offering, means that our customers are going to be better served. We’re right now in a time where this technology is burgeoning. It’s highly scrutinized, but it’s not necessarily very widely deployed. So I think it’s important to just keep an eye on that sort of community centricity. Stay as true to our stream as possible. Avoid balkanization, and I think everyone will benefit from that. [00:10:16] DC: Makes sense. One of the things I took away from my year, I was just looking kind of back at my year and learning, consolidating my thoughts on what had happened. One of the big takeaways for me in my customer engagements this year was that a number of customers outright came out explicitly and said, “Our success as a company is not going to be measured by our ability to operate Kubernetes, which is true and obvious.” But at the same time, I think that that’s a really interesting moment of awareness for a lot of the people that I work with out there in the field, where they realized, you know what, Kubernetes may be the next best thing. It may be an incredible technology, but fundamentally, it’s not going to be the measure by which we are graded success. It’s going to be what we do on top of that that is more interesting. So I think that your point about that ecosystem is large enough that people will be consuming Kubernetes for multiple searches is sort of amplified by that, because people are going to look for that easy button as inroad. They’re going to look for some way to get the Kubernetes thing so that they can actually start exploring what will happen on top of it as their primary goal rather than how to get Kubernetes from an operational perspective or even understand the care and feeding of it because they don’t see that as the primary measure of success. [00:11:33] CM: That is entirely true. When I think about enterprise software, there’s sort of these three pieces of it. The first piece is the sort of crystaline core of enterprise software. That’s consistent from enterprise to enterprise to enterprise. It’s purchased from primary vendors or it’s built by open source communities. It represents a significant basis for everything. There’s the sort of peripheral, the sort of sea of applications that exist around that enterprises built that are entirely unique to their environment, and they’re relatively fluid. Then there’s this weird sort of interstitial layer, which is the integration glue that exists between their crystalline core and those applications and operating practices that enterprises create. So I think from my side, we benefit if that crystalline core is as large as possible so that enterprises don’t have to rely on bespoke integration practices as much possible. We also need to make allowances for the idea that that interstitial layer between the sort of core of a technology like Kubernetes and the applications may be modular or sort of extended by a variety of different vendors. If you’re operating in this space, like the telco space, your problems are going to be unique to telco, but they’re going to be shared by every other telco provider. One of the beautiful things about Kubernetes is it is sufficiently modular, it is a pretty well-thought resistant. So I think we will start to see a lot of specialization in terms of those integration pieces. A lot of specialization in terms of how Kubernetes is fit to a specific area, and I think that represents an awful opportunity for the community to continue to evolve. But I also think it means that we as contributors to the project need to make allowances for that. We can’t hold opinion to the point where it precludes massive significant value for organizations as they look at modularized and extending the platform. [00:13:19] CC: What is your opinion on people making specialized Kubernetes operating systems? For example, we’re talking about telcos. I think there’s a Kubernetes OSS specifically for telcos that strip away things that kind of industry doesn’t need. What are the tradeoffs that you see? [00:13:39] CM: It’s almost inevitable that you’re going to start to see specialized operating system distributions that are tailored to container-based workloads. I think as we start looking at like the telco space with network function virtualization, Kubernetes promises to be something that we never really saw before. At the end of the day, telco is very broadly deployed open stack as this primary substrate for network function virtualization. But at the end of the day, they ended up not just deploying one rendition of open stack. But in many cases, three, four, five, depending on what functions they wanted to run, and there wasn’t a sufficient commonality in terms of the implementations. It became very sort of vendor-centric and balkanized in many ways. I think there’s an opportunity here to work hard as a community to drive convergence around a lot of those Kubernetes constructs so that, sure, the operating system is going to be different. If you’re running an NFV data plane implementation, doing a lot of bit slinging, it’s going to look fundamentally different to anything else in the industry, right? But that shouldn’t necessarily mean that you can’t use the same tools to organize, manage and reason about the workloads. A lot of the innovations that happen above that shouldn’t necessarily be tied to that. I think there’s promise there and it’s going to be an amazing test for Kubernetes itself to see how well it scales into those environments. By and large, I’m a fan of rendered down, container-optimized operating system distributions. There’s a lot of utility there, but I think we also need to be practical and recognize that enterprises have gotten comfortable with the OS landscape that they have. So we have to make allowances that as part of containerizing and distributing your application, maybe you don’t necessarily need to and hopefully re-qualify the underlying OS and challenge a lot of the assumptions. So I think we just need to pragmatic about it. [00:15:19] DC: I know that’s a dear topic to Josh and I. We’ve fought that battle in the past as well. I do think it’s another one of those things where it’s a set of assumptions. It’s fascinating to me how many different ecosystems are sort of collapsing, maybe not ecosystems. How many different audiences are brought together by a technology like container orchestration. That you are having that conversation with, “You know what? Let’s just change the paradigm for operating systems.” That you are having that conversation with, “Let’s change the paradigm for observability and lifecycle stuff. Let’s change the paradigm for packaging. We’ll call it containers.” You know what I mean? It’s so many big changes in one idea. It’s crazy. [00:15:54] CM: It’s a little daunting if you think about it, right? I always say, change is easiest across one dimension, right? If I’m going to change everything all at once across all the dimensions, life gets really hard. I think, again, it’s one of these things where Kubernetes represents a lot of value. I walk into a lot of customer accounts and I spend a lot of time with customers. I think based on their experiences, they sort of make one of two assumptions. There’s a set of vendors that will come into an environment and say, “Hey, just run this tool against your virtual machine images – and Kubernetes, right?” Then they have another set of vendors that will come in and say, “Yeah. Hey, you just need to go like turn this thing into 12 factor cloud native service mesh-linked applications driven through CICD, and your life is magic.” There are some cases where it makes sense, but there’re some cases where it just doesn’t. Hey, what uses a 24 gigabyte container? Is that really solving the problems that you have in some systematic way? At the other end of the spectrum, like there’s no world in which an enterprise organization is rewriting 3,000, 5,000 applications to be cloud native from the ground up. It just is not going to happen, right? So just understanding the return investment associated with the migration into Kubernetes. I’m not saying where it make sense and where it doesn’t. It’s such an important part of this story. [00:17:03] JR: On that front, and this is something Duffy and I talk to our customers about all the time. Say you’re sitting with someone and you’re talking about potentially using Kubernetes or they’re thinking about it, are there like some key indicators that you see, Craig, as like, “Okay. Maybe Kubernetes does have that return on investment pretty soon to justify it." Or maybe even in the reverse, like some things where you think, “Okay, these people are just going to implement Kubernetes and it’s going to become shelf weary.” How do you qualify as an org, “I might be ready to bring on something like Kubernetes.” [00:17:32] CM: It’s interesting. For me, it’s almost inevitably – as much about the human skills as anything else. I mean, the technology itself isn’t rocket science. I think the sort of critical success criteria, when I start looking at engagement, is there a cultural understanding of what Kubernetes represents? Kubernetes is not easy to use. That initial [inaudible 00:17:52] to the face is kind of painful for people that are used to different experiences. Making sure that the basic skills and expectations are met is really important. I think there’s definitely some sort of acid test around workloads fit as you start looking at Kubernetes. It’s an evolving ecosystem and it’s maturing pretty rapidly, but there are still areas that need a little bit more heavy lifting, right? So if you think about like, “Hey, I want to run a vertically-scaled OLTP database in Kubernetes today.” I don’t know. Maybe not the best choice. If the customer knows that, if they have enough familiarity or they’re willing to engage, I think it makes a tremendous amount of sense. By and large, the biggest challenge I see is not so much in the Kubernetes space. It’s easy enough to get to a basic cluster. There’re sort of two dimensions to this, there is day two operations. I see a lot of organizations that have worked to create scale up programs of platform technologies. Before Kubernetes there was Mesos and there’s obviously PCF that we’ll be coming more increasingly involved in. Organizations that have chewed on creating and deploying a standardized platform often have the operational skills, but you also need to look at like why did that previous technology really meet sort of criteria, and do you have the skills to operate it on a day two basis? Often there’s not – They’ve worked out the day two operational issues, but they still haven’t figured out like what it means to create a modern software supply chain that can deliver into the Kubernetes space. They haven’t figured out necessarily how to create the right incentive structures and experiences for the developers that are looking to build, package and deliver into that environment. That’s probably the biggest point of frustration I see with enterprises, is, “Okay. I got to Kubernetes. Now what?” That question just hasn’t been answered. They haven’t really thought through, “These are the CICD processes. This is how you engage your cyber team to qualify the platform for these classes of workloads. This is how you set up a container repo and run scans against it. This is how you assign TTL on images, so you don’t just get massive repo.” There’s so much in the application domain that just needs to exist that I think people often trivialize and it’s really taking the time and picking a couple of projects being measured in the investments. Making sure you have the right kind of cultural profile of teams that are engaged. Create that sort of celebratory moment of success. Make sure that the team is sort of metricking and communicating the productivity improvements, etc. That really drives the option and engagement with the whole customer base. [00:20:11] CC: It sounds to me like you have a book in the making. [00:20:13] CM: Oh! I will never write a book. It just seems like a lot of work. Brendan and a buch of my friends write books. Yeah, that seems like a whole lot of work. [00:20:22] DC: You had mentioned that you decided you wanted to work with Joe again. You formed Heptio. I was actually there for a year. I think I was around for a bit longer than that obviously. I’m curious what your thoughts about that were as an experiment win. If you just think about it as that part of the journey, do you think that was a success and what did you learn from that whole experiment that you wished everybody knew, just from a business perspective? It might have been business or it might have been running a company, any of that stuff. [00:20:45] CM: So I’m very happy with the way that Heptio went. There were a few things that sort of stood out for me as things that folks should think about if they’re going to start a startup or they want to join a startup. The first and foremost I would say is design the culture to the problem at hand. Culture isn’t accidental. I think that Heptio had a pretty distinct and nice culture, and I don’t want to sound self-congratulatory. I mean, as with anything, a certain amount of this is work, but a lot of it is luck as well. Making sure that the cultural identity of the company is well-suited to the problem at-hand. This is critical, right? When I think about what Heptio embodied, it was really tailored to the specific journey that we were setting ourselves up for. We were looking to be passionate advocates for Kubernetes. We were looking to walk the journey with our customers in an authentic way. We were looking to create a company that was built around sustainability. I think the culture is good and I encourage folks either the thing you’re starting is a startup or looking to join one, to think hard about that culture and how it’s going to map to the problems they’re trying to solve. The other thing that I think really motivated me to do Heptio, and I think this is something that I’m really excited to continue on with VMware, was the opportunity to walk the journey with customers. So many startups have this massive reticence to really engage deeply in professional services. In many ways, Google is fun. I had a blast there. It’s a great company to work for. We were able to build out some really cool tech and do good things. But I grew kind of tired of writing letters from the future. I was, “Okay, we are flying cars." When you're interacting with the customer. I can’t start my car and get to work. It’s great that you have flying cars, but right now I just need to get in my car, drive down the block and get out and get to work. So walking the journey with customers is probably the most important learning from Heptio and it’s one of the things I’m kind of most proud of. That opportunity to share the pain. Get involved from day one. Look at that as your most valuable apparatus to not just build your business, but also to learn what you need to build. Having a really smart set of people that are comfortable working directly with customers or invested in the success of those customers is so powerful. So if you’re in the business or in the startup game, investors may be leery of building out a significant professional service as a function, because that’s just how Silicon Valley works. But it is absolutely imperative in terms of your ability to engage with customers, particularly around nascent technologies, filled with gaps where the product doesn’t exist. Learn from those experiences and bring that back into the core product. It’s just a huge part of what we did. If I was ever in a situation where I had to advice a startup in the sort of open source space, I’d say lean into the professional service. Lean into field engineering. It’s a critical way to build your business. Learn what customers need. Walk the journey with them and just develop a deep empathy. [00:23:31] CC: With new technology, that was a concern about having enough professionals in the market who are knowledgeable in that new technology. There is always a gap for people to catch up with that. So I’m curious to know what customers or companies, prospective customers, how they are thinking in terms of finding professionals to help them? Are they’re concerned that there’s enough professionals in the market? Are they finding that the current people who are admins and operators are having an easy time because their skills are transferable, if they’re going to embark on the Kubernetes journey? What are they telling you? [00:24:13] CM: I mean, there’s a huge skills shortage. This is one of the kind of primary threats to the short term adoption of Kubernetes. I think Kubernetes will ultimately permeate enterprise organizations. I think it will become a standard for distributed systems development. Effectively emerging as an operating system for distributed systems, is people build more natively around Kubernetes. But right now it’s like the early days of Linux, where you deploy Linux, you’d have to kind of build it from scratch type of thing. It is definitely a challenge. For enterprise organizations, it’s interesting, because there’s a war for talent. There’s just this incredible appetite for Kubernetes talent. There’s always that old joke around the job description for like 10 years of Kubernetes experience on a five-year project. That certainly is something we see a lot. I’d take it from two sides. One is recognizing that as an enterprise organization, you are not going to be able to hire this talent. Just accept that sad truth. You can hire a seed crystal for it, but you really need to look at that as something that you’re going to build out as an enablement function for your own consumption. As you start assessing individuals that you’re going to bring on in that role, don’t just assess for Kubernetes talent. Assess for the ability to teach. Look for people that can come in and not just do, but teach and enable others to do it, right? Because at the end of the day, if you need like 50 Kubernauts at a certain level, so does your competitor and all of your other competitors. So does every other function out there. There’s just massive shortage of skills. So emphasizing your own – taking on the responsibility of building your own expertise. Educating your own organization. Finding ways to identify people that are motivated by this type of technology and creating space for them and recognizing and rewarding their work as they build this out. Because it’s far more practical to hire into existing skillset and then create space so that the people that have the appetite and capability to really absorb these types of disruptive technologies can do so within the parameters of your organization. Create the structures to support them and then make it their job to help permeate that knowledge and information into the organization. It’s just not something you can just bring in. The skills just don’t exist in the broader world. Then for professionals that are interested in Kubernetes, this is definitely a field that I think we’ll see a lot of job security for a very long-time. Taking on that effort, it’s just well worth the journey. Then I’d say the other piece of this is for vendors like VMware, our job can’t be just delivering skills and delivering technology. We need to think about our role as an enablers in the ecosystem as folks that are helping not just build up our own expertise of Kubernetes that we can represent to customers, but we’re well-served by our customers developing their own expertise. It’s not a threat to us. It actually enables them to consume the technologies that we provide. So focusing on that enablement through us as integration partners and [inaudible] community, focusing on enablement for our customers and education programs and the things that they need to start building out their capacity internally, is going to serve us all well. [00:27:22] JR: Something going back to maybe the Heptio conversation, I’m super interested in this. Being a very open source-oriented company, at VMware this is of course this true as well. We have to engage with large groups of humans from all different kinds of companies and we have to do that while building and shipping product to some degree. So where I’m going with this is like – I remember back in the Heptio days, there was something with dynamic audit logging that we were struggling with, and we needed it for some project we were working on. But we needed to get consensus in a designed approve at like a bigger community level. I do know to some degree that did limit our ability to ship quickly. So you probably know where I’m going with this. When you’re working on projects or products, how do you balance, making sure the whole community is coming along with you, but also making sure that you can actually ship something? [00:28:08] DM: That harkens back to that sort of catch phrase that Tim Sinclair always uses. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I think as with almost everything in the world, these things are situational, right? There are situations where it is so critical that you bring the community along with you that you don’t find yourself carrying the load for something by yourself that you just have to accept and absorb that it’s going to be pushing string. Working with an engaged community necessitates consensus, necessitates buy-in not just from you, but from potentially your competitors. The people that you’re working with and recognizing that they’ll be doing their own sort of mental calculus around whether this advantages them or not and whatnot. But hopefully, I think certainly in the Kubernetes community, this is general recognition that making the underlying technology accessible. Making it ubiquitous, making it intrinsically supportable profits everyone. I think there’re a couple of things that I look at. Make the decision pretty early on as to whether this is something you want to kind of spark off and sort of stride off on your own an innovate around, whether it’s something that’s critical to bring the community along with you around. I’ll give you two examples of this, right? One example was the work we did around technologies like Valero, which is a backup restore product. It was an urgent and critical need to provide a sustainable way to back up and recover Kubernetes. So we didn’t have the time to do this through Kubernetes. But also it didn’t necessarily matter, because everything we’re doing was build this addendum to Kubernetes. That project created a lot of value and we’ve donated to open source project. Anyone can use it. But we took on the commitment to drive the development ourselves. It’s not just we need it to. Because we had to push very quickly in that space. Whereas if you look at the work that we’re doing around things like cluster API and the sort of broader provisioning of Kubernetes, it’s so important that the ecosystem avoids the tragedy of the commons around things like lifecycle management. It’s so important that we as a community converge on a consistent way to reason about the deployment upgrade and scaling of Kubernetes clusters. For any single vendor to try to do that by themselves, they’re going to take on the responsibility of dealing with not just one or two environments if you’re a hyperscale cloud provider [inaudible 00:30:27] many can do that. But we think about doing that for, in our case, “Hey, we only deploy into vSphere. Not just what’s coming next, but also earlier versions of vSphere. We need to be able to deploy into all of the hyper-scalers. We need to deploy into some of the emerging cloud providers. We need to start reasoning about edge. We need to start thinking about all of these. We’re a big company and we have a lot of engineers. But you’re going to get stretched very thin, very quickly if you try to chew that off by yourself. So I think a lot of it is situational. I think there are situations where it does pay for organizations to kind of innovate, charge off in a new direction. Run an experiment. See if it sticks. Over time, open that up to the community as it makes sense. The thing that I think is most important is that you just wear your heart on your sleeve. The worst thing you can do is to present a charter that, “Hey, we’re doing this as a community-centric, open project with open design, open community, open source,” and then change your mind later, because that just creates dramas. I think it’s situational. Pick the path that makes sense to the problem at-hand. Figure out how long your customer can wait for something. Sometimes you can bring things back to communities that are very open and accepting community. You can look at it as an experiment, and if it makes sense in that experiment perform factor, present it back to the Kubernetes communities and see if you can kind of get it back in. But in some case it just makes sense to work within the structure and constraints of the community and just accept that great things from a community angle take a lot of time. [00:31:51] CC: I think too, one additional thing that I don’t think was mentioned is that if a project grows too big, you can always break it off. I mean, Kubernetes is such a great example of that. Break it off into separate components. Break it off into separate governance groups, and then parts can move with different speeds. [00:32:09] CM: Yeah, and there’s all kinds of options. So the heart of it is no one rule, right? It’s entirely situational. What are you trying to accomplish on what arise and acknowledge and accept that the evolution of the core of Kubernetes is slowing as it should. That’s a signal that the project is maturing. You cannot deliver value at a longer timeline that your business or your customers can absorb then maybe it makes sense to do something on the outside. Just wear your heart on your sleeve and make sure your customers and your partners know what you’re doing. [00:32:36] DC: One of your earlier points about how do companies – I think Josh's question and was around how do companies attract talent. You’re basically pointing, and I think that there are some relation to this particular topic because, frequently, I’ve seen companies find some success by making room for open source or upstream engineers to focus on the Kubernetes piece and to help drive that adoption internally. So if you’re going to adopt something like a Kubernetes strategy as part of a larger company goal, if you can actually make room within your organization to bring people who are – or to support people who want to focus on that up stream, I think that you get a lot of ancillary benefits from that, including it makes it easier to adopt that technology and understand it and actually have some more skin in the game around where the open source project itself is going. [00:33:25] CM: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the lovely things about the Kubernetes community is this idea of your position is earned, not granted, right? The way that you earn influence and leadership and basically the good will of everyone else in that community is by chopping wood, carrying water. Doing the things that are good for the community. Over time, any organization, any human being can become influential and lead based on their merits of their contributions. It’s important that vendors think about that. But at the same time, I have a hard time taking exception with practically any use of open source. At the end of the day, open source by its nature is a leap of faith. You’re making that technology accessible. If someone else can take it, operationalize it well and deliver value for organizations, that’s part of your contract. That’s what you absorb as a vendor when you start the thing. So people shouldn’t feel like they have to. But if you want to influence and lead, you do need to. Participate in these communities in an open way. [00:34:22] DC: When you were helping form the CNCF and some of those projects, did you foresee it being like a driving goal for people, not just vendors, but also like consumers of the technologies associated with those foundations? [00:34:34] CM: Yeah, it was interesting. Starting the CNCF, I can speak from the position of where I was inside Google. I was highly motivated by the success of Kubernetes. Not just personally motivated, because it was a project that I was working on. I was motivated to see it emerge as a standard for distributed systems development that attracts the way the infrastructure provider. I’m not ashamed of it. It was entirely self-serving. If you looked at Google’s market position at that time, if you looked at where we were as a hyper-scale cloud provider. Instituting something that enabled the intrinsic mobility of workloads and could shuffle around the cards on the deck so to speak [inaudible 00:35:09]. I also felt very privileged that that was our position, because we didn’t necessarily have to create artificial structures or constraints around the controls of the system, because that process of getting something to become ubiquitous, there’s a natural path if you approach it as a single provider. I’m not saying who couldn’t have succeeded with Kubernetes as a single provider. But if Red Hat and IBM and Microsoft and Amazon had all piled on to something else, it’s less obvious, right? It’s less obvious that Kubernetes would have gone as far as it did. So I was setting up CNCF, I was highly motivated by preserving the neutrality. Creating structures that separated the various sort of forms of governance. I always joke that at the time of creating CNCF, I was motivated by the way the U.S. Constitution is structured. Where you have these sort of different checks and balances. So I wanted to have something that would separate vendor interests from things that are maintaining taste on the discreet project. The sort of architecture integrity, and maintain separation from customer segments, so that you’d create the sort of natural self-balancing system. It was definitely in my thinking, and I think it worked out pretty well. Certainly not perfect, but it did lead down a path which I think has supported the success of the project a fair bit. [00:36:26] DC: So we talked a lot about Kubernetes. I’m curious, do you have some thoughts, Carlisia? [00:36:31] CC: Actually, I know you have a question about microliths. I was very interested in exploring that. [00:36:37] CM: There’s an interesting pattern that I see out there in the industry and this manifests in a lot of different ways, right? When you think about the process of bringing applications and workloads into Kubernetes, there’s this sort of pre-dispositional bias towards, “Hey, I’ve got this monolithic application. It’s vertically scaled. I’m having a hard time with the sort of team structure. So I’m going to start tuning it up into a set of microservices that I can then manage discretely and ideally evolve on a separate cadence. This is an example of a real customer situation where someone said, “Hey, I’ve just broken this monolith down into 27 microservices.” So I was sort of asking a couple of questions. The first one was when you have to update those 27 – if you want to update one of those, how many do you have to touch? The answer was 27. I was like, “Ha! You just created a microlith.” It’s like a monolith, except it’s just harder to live with. You’re taking a packaging problem and turn it into a massively complicated orchestration problem. I always use that jokingly, but there’s something real there, which is there’s a lot of secondary things you need to think through as you start progressing on this cloud native journey. In the case of microservice development, it’s one thing to have API separated microservices. That’s easy enough to institute. But instituting the organization controls around an API versioning strategy such you can start to establish stable API with consistent schema and being able to sort of manage the dependencies to consuming teams requires a level of sophistication that a lot of organizations haven’t necessarily thought through. So it’s very easy to just sort of get caught up in the hype without necessarily thinking through what happens downstream. It’s funny. I see the same thing in functions, right? I interact with organizations and they’re like, “Wow! We took this thing that was running in a container and we turned it into 15 different functions.” I’m like, “Ha! Okay.” You start asking questions like, “Well, do you have any challenges with state coherency?” They’re like, “Yeah! It’s funny you say that. Because these things are a little bit less transactionally coherent, we have to write state watches. So we try and sort of watermark state and watch this thing." I’m like, “You’re building a distributed transaction coordinator on your free time. Is this really the best use of your resources?" Right? So it really gets back to that idea that there’s a different tool for a different job. Sometimes the tool is a virtual machine. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes the tool is a bare metal deployment. If you’re building a quantitative trading application that’s microsecond latency sensitive, you probably don’t want to hypervisor there. Sometimes a VM is the natural destination and there’s no reason to move from a VM. Sometimes it’s a container. Sometimes you want to start looking at that container and just modularizing it so you can run a set of things next to each other in the same process space. Sometimes you’re going to want to put APIs between those things and separate them out into separate containers. There’s an ROI. There’s a cause and there’s a benefit associated with each of those transitions. More importantly, there are a set of skills that you have to have as you start looking at their continuum and making sure that you’re making good choices and being wise about it. [00:39:36] CC: That is a very good observation. Design is such an important part of software development. I wonder if Kubernetes helps mask these design problems. For example, the ones you are mentioning, or does Kubernetes sort of surfaces them even more? [00:39:53] CM: It’s an interesting philosophical question. Kubernetes certainly masks some problems. I ran into an early – this is like years ago. I ran into an early customer, who confided in me, "I think we’re writing worse code now." I was like, ”What do you mean?” He was like, “Well, it used to be when we went out of memory on something, we get paged. Now we’ve set out that we go and it just restarts the container and everything continuous.” There’s no real incentive for the engineers to actually go back and deal with the underlying issues and recourse it, because the system is just more intrinsically robust and self-healing by nature. I think there's definitely some problems that Kubernetes will compound. If you’re very sloppy with your dependencies, if you create a really large, vertically scaled monolith that’s running at VM today, putting it in a container is probably strictly going to make your life worse. Just be respectful of that. But at the same time, I do think that the discipline associated with transition to Kubernetes, if you walk it a little bit further along. If you start thinking about the fact that you’re not running a lot of imperative processes during a production in a push, where deployment container is effectively a bin copy with some minimal post-deployment configuration changes that happen. It sort of leads you on to a much happier path naturally. I think it can mask some issues, but by and large, the types of systems you end up building are going to be more intrinsically operationally stable and scalable. But it is also worth recognizing that it’s — you are going to encounter corner cases. I’ve run into a lot of customers that will push the envelope in a direction that was unanticipated by the community or they accidentally find themselves on new ground that’s just unstable, because the technology is relatively nascent. So just recognizing that if you’re going to walk down a new path, I’m not saying don’t, just recognize that you’re probably going to encounter some stuff that’s going to take over to working through. [00:41:41] DC: We get an earlier episode about API contracts, which I think highlights some of these stuff as well, because it sort of gets into some of those sharp edges of like why some of those things are super important when you start thinking about microservices and stuff. We’re coming to the end of our time, but one of the last questions I want to ask you, we’ve talked a lot about Kubernetes in this episode, I’m curious what the future holds. We see a lot of really interesting things happening in the ecosystem around moving more towards serverless. There are a lot of people who are like — thinking that perhaps a better line would be to move away from like infrastructure offering and just basically allow cloud providers in this stuff to manage your nodes for you. We have a few shots on goal for that ourselves. It’s been really an interesting evolution over the last year in that space. I’m curious, what sort of lifetime would you ascribe to it today? What do you think that this is going to be the thing in 10 years? Do you think it will be a thing in 5 years? What do you see coming that might change it? [00:42:32] CM: It’s interesting. Well, first of all, I think 2018 was the largest year ever for mainframe sales. So we have these technologies, once they’re in enterprise, it tends to be pretty durable. The duty cycle of enterprise software technology is pretty long-lived. The real question is we’ve seen a lot of technologies in this space emerge, ascend, reach a point of critical mass and then fade and they’re disrupted by the technologies. Is Kubernetes going to be a Linux or is Kubernetes going to be a Mesos, right? I mean, I don’t claim to know the answer. My belief, and I think this is probably true, is that it’s more like a Linux. When you think about the heart of what Kubernetes is doing, is it’s just providing a better way to build and organized distributed systems. I’m sure that the code will evolve rapidly and I’m sure there will be a lot of continued innovation enhancement. But when you start thinking about the fact that what Kubernetes has really done is brought controller reconciler based management to distributed systems developed everywhere. When you think about the fact that pretty much every system these days is distributed by nature, it really needs something that supports that model. So I think we will see Kubernetes sticking. We’ll see it become richer. We’ll start to see it becoming more applicable for a lot of things that we’re starting to just running in VMs. It may well continue to run in VMs and just be managed by Kubernetes. I don’t have an opinion about how to reason about the underlying OS and virtualization structure. The thing I do have opinion about is it makes a ton of sense to be able to use a declarative framework. Use a set of well-structured controllers and reconcilers to drive your world into a non-desired state. I think that pattern will be – it’s been quite successful. It can be quite durable. I think we’ll start to see organizations embrace a lot of these technologies over time. It is possible that something brighter, shinier, newer, comes along. Anyone will tell you that we made enough mistakes during the journey and there is stuff that I think everyone regret some of the Kubernetes train. I do think it’s likely to be pretty durable. I don’t think it’s a silver bullet. Nothing is, right? It’s like any of these technologies, there’s always the cost and there’s a benefit associated with it. The benefits are relatively well-understood. But there’s going to be different tools to do different jobs. There’s going to be new patterns that emerge that simplify things. Is Kubernetes the best framework for running functions? I don’t know. Maybe. Kind of like what the [inaudible] people are doing. But are there more intrinsically optimal ways to do this, maybe. I don’t know. [00:45:02] JR: It has been interesting watching Kubernetes itself evolve in that moving target. Some of the other technologies I’ve seen kind of stagnate on their one solution and don’t grow further. But that’s definitely not what I see within this community. It’s like always coming up with something new. Anyway, thank you very much for your time. That was an incredible session. [00:45:22] CM: Yeah. Thank you. It’s always fun to chat. [00:45:24] CC: Yeah. We’ll definitely have you back, Craig. Yes, we are coming up at the end, but I do want to ask if you have any thoughts that you haven’t brought up or we haven’t brought up that you’d like to share with the audience of this podcast. [00:45:39] CM: I guess the one thing that was going through my head earlier I didn’t say which is as you look at these technologies, there’s sort of these two duty cycles. There’s the hype duty cycle, where technology ascends in awareness and everyone looks at it as an answer to all the everythings. Then there’s the readiness duty cycle, which is sometimes offset. I do think we’re certainly peak hype right now in Kubernetes if you attended KubeCon. I do think there’s perhaps a gap between the promise and the reality for a lot of organizations. It's always just council caution and just be judicious about how you approach this. It’s a very powerful technology and I see a very bright future for it. Thanks for your time. [00:46:17] CC: Really, thank you so much. It’s so refreshing to hear from you. You have great thoughts. With that, thank you very much. We will see you next week. [00:46:28] JR: Thanks, everybody. See you. [00:46:29] DC: Cheers, folks. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:46:31] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

amazon culture google starting interview design research walk vice president development microsoft run silicon valley os balancing figure roi constitution ibm effectively organizations quotes educating api past present assess linux participate involvement apis weighing vm duffy ku vmware masking red hat kubernetes quantifying ci cd valero cloud native vms pcf cncf kubecon ttl vsphere instituting mesos cloud native computing foundation nfv brendan burns tim sinclair heptio oltp dcyou announcer thank announcer welcome

Learning Distributed Systems (Ep 12)

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 13, 2020 47:09

In this episode of The Podlets Podcast, we welcome Michael Gasch from VMware to join our discussion on the necessity (or not) of formal education in working in the realm of distributed systems. There is a common belief that studying computer science is a must if you want to enter this field, but today we talk about the various ways in which individuals can teach themselves everything they need to know. What we establish, however, is that you need a good dose of curiosity and craziness to find your feet in this world, and we discuss the many different pathways you can take to fully equip yourself. Long gone are the days when you needed a degree from a prestigious school: we give you our hit-list of top resources that will go a long way in helping you succeed in this industry. Whether you are someone who prefers learning by reading, attending Meetups or listening to podcasts, this episode will provide you with lots of new perspectives on learning about distributed systems. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: • Introducing our new host, Michael Gasch, and a brief overview of his role at VMware. • Duffie and Carlisia’s educational backgrounds and the value of hands-on work experience. • How they first got introduced to distributed systems and the confusion around what it involves. • Why distributed systems are about more than simply streamlining communication and making things work. • The importance and benefit of educating oneself on the fundamentals of this topic. • Our top recommended resources for learning about distributed systems and their concepts. • The practical downside of not having a formal education in software development. • The different ways in which people learn, index and approach problem-solving. • Ensuring that you balance reading with implementation and practical experience. • Why it’s important to expose yourself to discussions on the topic you want to learn about. • The value of getting different perspectives around ideas that you think you understand. • How systems thinking is applicable to things outside of computer science.• The various factors that influence how we build systems. Quotes: “When people are interacting with distributed systems today, or if I were to ask like 50 people what a distributed system is, I would probably get 50 different answers.” — @mauilion [0:14:43] “Try to expose yourself to the words, because our brains are amazing. Once you get exposure, it’s like your brain works in the background. All of a sudden, you go, ‘Oh, yeah! I know this word.’” — @carlisia [0:14:43] “If you’re just curious a little bit and maybe a little bit crazy, you can totally get down the rabbit hole in distributed systems and get totally excited about it. There’s no need for having formal education and the degree to enter this world.” — @embano1 [0:44:08] Learning resources suggested by the hosts: Book, Designing Data-Intensive Applications, M. Kleppmann Book, Distributed Systems, M. van Steen and A.S. Tanenbaum (free with registration) Book, Thesis on Raft, D. Ongaro. - Consensus - Bridging Theory and Practice (free PDF) Book, Enterprise Integration Patterns, B.Woolf, G. Hohpe Book, Designing Distributed Systems, B. Burns (free with registration) Video, Distributed Systems Video, Architecting Distributed Cloud Applications Video, Distributed Algorithms Video, Operating System - IIT Lectures Video, Intro to Database Systems (Fall 2018) Video, Advanced Database Systems (Spring 2018) Paper, Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System Post, Notes on Distributed Systems for Young Bloods Post, Distributed Systems for Fun and Profit Post, On Time Post, Distributed Systems @The Morning Paper Post, Distributed Systems @Brave New Geek Post, Aphyr’s Class materials for a distributed systems lecture series Post, The Log - What every software engineer should know about real-time data’s unifying abstraction Post, Github - awesome-distributed-systems Post, Your Coffee Shop Doesn’t Use Two-Phase Commit Podcast, Distributed Systems Engineering with Apache Kafka ft. Jason Gustafson Podcast, The Systems Bible - The Beginner’s Guide to Systems Large and Small - John Gall Podcast, Systems Programming - Designing and Developing Distributed Applications - Richard Anthony Podcast, Distributed Systems - Design Concepts - Sunil Kumar Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Michael Gasch on LinkedIn — https://de.linkedin.com/in/michael-gasch-10603298 Michael Gasch on Twitter — https://twitter.com/embano1 Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisia Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilion VMware — https://www.vmware.com/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Linux — https://www.linux.org Brian Grant on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/bgrant0607 Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ Lamport Article — https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/time-clocks.pdf Designing Date-Intensive Applications — https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Intensive-Applications-Reliable-Maintainable-ebook/dp/B06XPJML5D Designing Distributed Systems — https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Distributed-Systems-Patterns-Paradigms/dp/1491983647 Papers We Love Meetup — https://www.meetup.com/papers-we-love/ The Systems Bible — https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Bible-Beginners-Guide-Large/dp/0961825170 Enterprise Integration Patterns — https://www.amazon.com/Enterprise-Integration-Patterns-Designing-Deploying/dp/0321200683 Transcript: EPISODE 12 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back. This is Episode 12, and we are going to talk about distributed systems without a degree or even with a degree, because who knows how much we learn in university. I am Carlisia Campos, one of your hosts. Today, I also have Duffie Cooley. Say hi, Duffie. [00:01:02] DC: Hey, everybody. [00:01:03] CC: And a new host for you, and this is such a treat. Michael Gasch, please tell us a little bit of your background. [00:01:11] MG: Hey! Hey, everyone! Thanks, Carlisia. Yes. So I’m new to the show. I just want to keep it brief because I think over the show we’ll discuss our backgrounds a little bit further. So right now, I’m with VMware. So I’ve been with VMware almost for five years. Currently, I'm in the office of the CTO. I’m a platform architect in the office of the CTO and I mainly use Kubernetes on a daily basis from an engineering perspective. So we build a lot of prototypes based on customer input or ideas that we have, and we work with different engineering teams. Kurbernetes has become kind of my bread and butter but lately more from a consumer perspective like developing with Kurbenetes or against Kubernetes, instead of the formal ware of mostly being around implementing and architecting Kubernetes. [00:01:55] CC: Nice. Very impressive. Duffie? [00:01:58] MG: Thank you. [00:01:59] DC: Yeah. [00:02:00] CC: Let’s give the audience a little bit of your backgrounds. We’ve done this before but just to frame the episodes, so people will know how we come in as distributed systems. [00:02:13] DC: Sure. In my experience, I spent – I don’t have a formal education history. I spent most of my time kind of like in a high school time. Then from there, basically worked into different systems administration, network administration, network architect, and up into virtualization and now containerization. So I’ve got a pretty hands-on kind of bootstrap experience around managing infrastructure, both at small-scale, inside of offices, and the way up to very large scale, working for some of the larger companies here in the Silicon Valley. [00:02:46] CC: All right. My turn I guess. So I do have a computer science degree but I don’t feel that I really went deep at all in distributed systems. My degree is also from a long time ago. So mainly, what I do know now is almost entirely from hands-on work experience. Even so, I think I'm very much lacking and I’m very interested in this episode, because we are going to go through some great resources that I am also going to check out later. So let’s get this party started. [00:03:22] DC: Awesome. So you want to just talk about kind of the general ideas behind distributed systems and like how you became introduced to them or like where you started in that journey? [00:03:32] CC: Yeah. Let’s do that. [00:03:35] DC: My first experience with the idea of distributed systems was in using them before I knew that they were distributed systems, right? One of the very first distributed systems as I look back on it that I ever actually spent any real time with was DNS, which I consider to be something of a distributed system. If you think about it, they have name servers, they have a bunch of caching servers. They solve many of the same sorts of problems. In a previous episode, we talked about how networking, just the general idea of networking and handling large-scale architecting networks. It’s also in a way very – has a lot of analogues into distributed systems. For me, I think working with and helping solve the problems that are associated with them over time gave me a good foundational understanding for when we were doing distributed systems as a thing later on in my career. [00:04:25] CC: You said something that caught my interest, and it’s very interesting, because obviously for people who have been writing algorithms, writing papers about distributed systems, they’re going to go yawning right now, because I’m going to say the obvious. As you start your journey programming, you read job requirements. You read or you must – should know distributed systems. Then I go, “What is distributed system? What do they really mean?” Because, yes, we understand apps stuck to apps and then there is API, but there’s always for me at least a question at the back of my head. Is that all there is to it? It sounds like it should be a lot more involved and complex and complicated than just having an app stuck on another app. In fact, it is because there are so many concepts and problems involved in distributed systems, right? From timing, clock, and sequence, and networking, and failures, how do you recover. There is a whole world in how do you log this properly, how do you monitor. There’s a whole world that revolves around this concept of systems residing in different places and [inaudible 00:05:34] each other. [00:05:37] DC: I think you made a very good point. I think this is sort of like there’s an analog to this in containers, oddly enough. When people say, “I want a container within and then the orchestration systems,” they think that that's just a thing that you can ask for. That you get a container and inside of that is going to be your file system and it’s going to do all those things. In a way, I feel like that same confusion is definitely related to distributed systems. When people are interacting with distributed systems today or if I were to ask like 50 people what a distributed system is, I would probably get 50 different answers. I think that you got a pretty concise definition there in that it is a set of systems that intercommunicate to perform some function. It’s like found at its base line. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable definition of what distributed systems are, and then we can figure out from there like what functions are they trying to achieve and what are some of the problems that we’re trying to solve with them. [00:06:29] CC: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about in my head is solving the problems because at the beginning, I was thinking, “Well, it must be just about communicating and making things work.” It’s the opposite of that. It’s like that’s a given. When a job says you need to understand about distributed systems, what they are really saying is you need to know how to deal with failures, not just to make it work. Make it work is sort of the easy part, but the whole world of where the failures can happen, how do you handle it, and that, to me is what needing to know distributed system comes in handy. In a couple different things, like at the top layer or 5% is knowing how to make things work, and 95% is knowing how to handle things when they don’t work, because it’s inevitable. [00:07:19] DC: Yeah, I agree. What do you think, Michael? How would you describe the context around distributed systems? What was the first one that you worked with? [00:07:27] MG: Exactly. It’s kind of similar to your background, Duffie, which is no formal degree or education on computer science right after high school and jumping into kind of my first job, working with computers, computer administration. I must say that from the age of I think seven or so, I was interested in computers and all that stuff but more from a hardware perspective, less from a software development perspective. So my take always was on disassembling the pieces and building my own computers than writing programs. In the early days, that just was me. So I completely almost missed the whole education and principles and fundamentals of how you would write a program for a single computer and then obviously also for how to write programs that run across a network of computers. So over time, as I progress on my career, especially kind of in the first job, which was like seven years of different Linux systems, Linux administrations, I kind of – Like you, Duffie, I dealt with distributed systems without necessarily knowing that I'm dealing with distributed systems. I knew that it was mostly storage systems, Linux file servers, but distributed file servers. Samba, if some of you recall that project. So I knew that things could fail. I know it could fail, for example, or I know it could not be writable, and so a client must be stuck but not necessarily I think directly related to fundamentals of how distributed systems work or don’t work. Over time, and this is really why I appreciate the Kubernetes project in community, I got more questions, especially when this whole container movement came up. I got so many questions around how does that thing work. How does scheduling work? Because scheduling kind of was close to my interest in the hardware design and low-level details. But I was looking at Kubernetes like, “Okay. There is the scheduler.” In the beginning, the documentation was pretty scarce around the implementation and all the control as for what’s going on. So I had to – I listen to a lot of podcasts and Brian Grant’s great talks and different shows that he gave from the Kubernetes space and other people there as well. In the end, I had more questions than answers. So I had to dig deeper. Eventually, that led me to a path of wanting to understand more formal theory behind distributed systems by reading the papers, reading books, taking some online classes just to get a basic understanding of those issues. So I got interested in results scheduling in distributed systems and consensus. So those were two areas that kind of caught my eyes like, “What is it? How do machines agree in a distributed system if so many things can go wrong?” Maybe we can explore this later on. So I’m going to park this for a bit. But back to your question, which was kind of a long-winded answer or a road to answering your question, Duffie. For me, a distributed system is like this kind of coherent network of computer machines that from the outside to an end-user or to another client looks like one gigantic big machine that is [inaudible 00:10:31] to run as fast. That is performing also efficient. It constitutes a lot of characteristics and properties that we want from our systems that a single machine usually can’t handle. But it looks like it's a big single machine to a client. [00:10:46] DC: I think that – I mean, it is interesting like, I don’t want to get into – I guess this is probably not just a distributed systems talk. But obviously, one of the questions that falls out for me when I hear that answer is then what is the difference between a micro service architecture and distributed systems, because I think it's – I mean, to your point, the way that a lot of people work with the app to learn to develop software, it’s like we’re going to develop a monolithic application just by nature. We’re going to solve a software problem using code. Then later on, when we decide to actually scale this thing or understand how to better operate it under a significant load, then we started thinking about, “Okay. Well, how do we have to architect this differently in such a way that it can support that load?” That’s where I feel like the beams cut across, right? We’re suddenly in a world where you’re not only just talking about microservices. You’re also talking about distributed systems because you’re going to start thinking about how to understand transactionality throughout that system, how to understand all of those consensus things that you're referring to. How do they affect it when I add mister network in there? That’s cool. [00:11:55] MG: Just one comment on this, Duffie, which took me a very long time to realize, which is coming – From my definition of what a distributed system is like this group of machines that they perform work in a certain sense or maybe even more abstracted like at a bunch of computers network together. What I kind of missed most of the time, and this goes back to the DNS example that you gave in the beginning, was the client or the clients are also part of this distributed system, because they might have caches, especially in DNS. So you always deal with this kind of state that is distributed everywhere. Maybe you don't even know where it kind of is distributed, and the client kind of works with a local stale data. So that is also part of a distributed system, and something I want to give credit to the Kafka community and some of the engineers on Kafka, because there was a great talk lately that I heard. It’s like, “Right. The client is also part of your distributed system, even though usually we think it's just the server. That those many server machines, all those microservices.” At least I missed that a long time. [00:12:58] DC: You should put a link to that talk in our [inaudible 00:13:00]. That would be awesome. It sounds great. So what do you think, Carlisia? [00:13:08] CC: Well, one thing that I wanted to mention is that Michael was saying how he’s been self-teaching distributed systems, and I think if we want to be competent in the area, we have to do that. I’m saying this to myself even. It’s very refreshing when you read a book or you read a paper and you really understand the fundamentals of an aspect of distributed system. A lot of things fall into place in your hands. I’m saying this because even prioritizing reading about and learning about the fundamentals is really hard for me, because you have your life. You have things to do. You have the minutiae in things to get done. But so many times, I struggle. In the rare occasions where I go, “Okay. Let me just learn this stuff trial and error,” it makes such a difference. Then once you learn, it stays with you forever. So it’s really good. It’s so refreshing to read a paper and understand things at a different level, and that is what this episode is. I don’t know if this is the time to jump in into, “So there are our recommendations.” I don't know how deep, Michael, you’re going to go. You have a ton of things listed. Everything we mention on the show is going to be on our website, on the show notes. So nobody needs to be necessarily taking notes. Anything thing I wanted to say is it would be lovely if people would get back to us once you listened to this. Let us know if you want to add anything to this list. It would be awesome. We can even add it to this list later and give a shout out to you. So it’d be great. [00:14:53] MG: Right. I don’t want to cover this whole list. I just wanted to be as complete as possible about a stuff that I kind of read or watched. So I just put it in and I just picked some highlights there if you want. [00:15:05] CC: Yeah. Go for it. [00:15:06] MG: Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Honestly, even though not the first in the list, but the first thing that I read, so maybe from kind of my history of how I approach things, was searching for how do computers work and what are some of the issues and how do computers and machines agree. Obviously, the classic paper that I read was the Lamport paper on “Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System”. I want to be honest. First time I read it, I didn’t really get the full essence of the paper, because it doesn't prove in there. The mathematic proof for me didn't click immediately, and there were so many things and concepts and physics and time that were thrown at me where I was looking for answers and I had more questions than answers. But this is not to Leslie. This is more like by the time I just wasn't prepared for how deep the rabbit hole goes. So I thought, if someone asked me for – I only have time to read one book out of this huge list that I have there and all the other resources. Which one would it be? Which one would I recommend? I would recommend Designing Data-Intensive Apps by Martin Kleppmann, which I’ve been following his blog posts and some partial releases that he's done before fully releasing that book, which took him more than four years to release that book. It’s kind of almost the Bible, state-of-the-art Bible when it comes to all concepts in distributed systems. Obviously, consensus, network failures, and all that stuff but then also leading into modern data streaming, data platform architectures inspired by, for example, LinkedIn and other communities. So that would be the book that I would recommend to someone if – Who does have time to read one book. [00:16:52] DC: That’s a neat approach. I like the idea of like if you had one thing, if you have one way to help somebody ramp on distributed systems and stuff, what would it be? For me, it’s actually I don't think I would recommend a book, oddly enough. I feel like I would actually – I’d probably drive them toward the kind of project, like the kind [inaudible 00:17:09] project and say, “This is a distributed system all but itself.” Start tearing it apart to pieces and seeing how they work and breaking them and then exploring and kind of just playing with the parts. You can do a lot of really interesting things. This is actually another book in your list that was written by Brendan Burns about Designing Distributed Systems I think it’s called. That book, I think he actually uses Kubernetes as a model for how to go about achieving these things, which I think is incredibly valuable, because it really gets into some of the more stable distributed systems patterns that are around. I feel like that's a great entry point. So if I had one thing, if I had to pick one way to help somebody or to push somebody in the direction of trying to learn distributed systems, I would say identify those distributed systems that maybe you’re already aware of and really explore how they work and what the problems with them are and how they went about solving those problems. Really dig into the idea of it. It’s something you could put your hands on and play with. I mean, Kubernetes is a great example of this, and this is actually why I referred to it. [00:18:19] CC: The way that works for me when I’m learning something like that is to really think about where the boundaries are, where the limitations are, where the tradeoffs are. If you can take a smaller system, maybe something like The Kind Project and identify what those things are. If you can’t, then ask around. Ask someone. Google it. I don’t know. Maybe it will be a good episode topic for us to do that. This part is doing this to map things out. So maybe we can understand better and help people understand things better. So mainly like yeah. They try to do the distributed system thesis are. But for people who don’t even know what they could be, it’s harder to identify it. I don’t know what a good strategy for that would be, because you can read about distributed systems and then you can go and look at a project. How do you map the concept to learning to what you’re seeing in the code base? For me, that’s the hardest thing. [00:19:26] MG: Exactly. Something that kind of I had related experience was like when I went into software development, without having formal education on algorithms and data structures, sometimes in your head, you have the problem statement and you're like, “Okay. I would do it like that.” But you don't know the word that describes, for example, a heap structure or queue because you’ve never – Someone told you that is heap, that is a queue, and/or that is a stick. So, for me, reading the book was a bit easier. Even though I have done distributed systems, if you will, administration for many years, many years ago, I didn't realize that it was a distributed system because I never had this definition or I never had those failure scenarios in mind and it never had a word for consensus. So how would I search for something like how do machines agree? I mean, if you put that on Google, then likely they will come – Have a lot of stuff. But if you put it in consensus algorithm, likely you get a good hit on what the answer should be. [00:20:29] CC: It is really problematic when we don't know the names of things because – What you said is so right, because we are probably doing a lot of distributed systems without even knowing that that’s what it is. Then we go in the job interview, and people are, “Oh! Have you done a distributed system?” No. You have but you just don’t know how to name things. But that’s one – [00:20:51] DC: Yeah, exactly. [00:20:52] CC: Yeah. Right? That’s one issue. Another issue, which is a bigger issue though is at least that’s how it is for me. I don’t want to speak for anybody else but for me definitely. If I can’t name things and I face a problem and I solve it, every time I face that problem it’s a one-off thing because I can’t map to a higher concept. So every time I face that problem, it’s like, “Oh!” It’s not like, “Oh, yeah!” If this is this kind of problem, I have a pattern. I’m going to use that to this problem. So that’s what I’m saying. Once you learn the concept, you need to be able to name it. Then you can map that concept to problems you have. All of a sudden, if you have like three things [inaudible 00:21:35] use to solve this problem, because as you work with computers, coding, it’s like you see the same thing over and over again. But when you don’t understand the fundamentals, things are just like – It’s a bunch of different one-offs. It’s like when you have an argument with your spouse or girlfriend or boyfriend. Sometimes, it’s like you’re arguing 10 times in a month and you thought, “Oh! I had 10 arguments.” But if you’d stop and think about it, no. We had one argument 10 times. It’s very different than having 10 problems versus having 1 problem 10 times, if that makes sense. [00:22:12] MG: It does. [00:22:11] DC: I think it does, right? [00:22:12] MG: I just want to agree. [00:22:16] DC: I think it does make sense. I think it’s interesting. You’ve highlighted kind of an interesting pattern around the way that people learn, which I think is really interesting. That is like some people are able to read about patterns or software patterns or algorithms or architectures and have that suddenly be an index of their heads. They can actually then later on correlate what they've read with the experience that they’re having around the things they're working on. For some, it needs to be hands-on. They need to actually be able to explore that idea and understand and manipulate it and be able to describe how it works or functions in person, in reality. They need to have that hands-on like, “I need to touch it to understand it,” kind of experience. Those people also, as they go through those experiences, start building this index of patterns or algorithms in their head. They have this thing that they can correlate to, right, like, “Oh! This is a time problem,” or, “This is a consensus problem,” or what have you, right? [00:23:19] CC: Exactly. [00:23:19] DC: You may not know the word for that saying but you're still going to develop a pattern in your mind like the ability to correlate this particular problem with some pattern that you’ve seen before. What's interesting is I feel like people have taken different approaches to building that index, right? For me, it’s been troubleshooting. Somebody gives me a hard problem, and I dig into it and I figure out what the problem is, regardless of whether it's to do with distributed systems or cooking. It could be anything, but I always want to get right in there and figure out what that problem and start building a map in my mind of all of the players that are involved. For others, I feel like with an educational background, if you have an education background, I think that sometimes you end up coming to this with a set of patterns already instilled that you understand and you're just trying to apply those patterns to the experience you’re having instead. It’s just very – It’s like horse before the cart or cart before the horse. It’s very interesting when you think about it. [00:24:21] CC: Yes. [00:24:22] MG: The recommendation that I just want to give to people that are like me who like reading is that I went overboard a bit in the beginnings because I was so fascinated by all the stuff, and it went down the rabbit hole deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper. Reading and reading and reading. At some point, even coming to weird YouTube channels that talk about like, “Is time real and where does time emerge from?” It became philosophical even like the past where I went to. Now, the thing is, and this is why I like Duffie’s approach with like breaking things and then undergo like trying to break things and understanding how they work and how they can fail is that immediately you practice. You’re hands-on. So that would be my advice to people who are more like me who are fascinated by reading and all the theory that your brain and your mind is not really capable of kind of absorbing all the stuff and then remembering without practicing. Practicing can be breaking things or installing things or administrating things or even writing software. But for me, that was also a late realization that I should have maybe started doing things earlier than the time I spent reading. [00:25:32] CC: By doing, you mean, hands-on? [00:25:35] MG: Yeah. [00:25:35] CC: Anything specific that you would have started with? [00:25:38] MG: Yes. On Kubernetes – So going back those 15 years to my early days of Linux and Samba, which is a project. By the time, I think it was written in C or C++. But the problem was I wasn’t able to read the code. So the only thing that I had by then was some mailing lists and asking questions and not even knowing which questions to ask because of lack of words of understanding. Now, fast-forward into Kubernetes’ time, which got me deeper in distributed systems, I still couldn't read the code because I didn't know [inaudible 00:26:10]. But I forced myself to read the code, which helped a little bit for myself to understand what was going on because the documentation by then was lacking. These days, it’s easier, because you can just install [inaudible 00:26:20] way easier today. The hands-on piece, I mean. [00:26:23] CC: You said something interesting, Michael, and I have given this advice before because I use this practice all the time. It's so important to have a vocabulary. Like you just said, I didn't know what to ask because I didn’t know the words. I practice this all the time. To people who are in this position of distributed systems or whatever it is or something more specific that you are trying to learn, try to expose yourself to the words, because our brains are amazing. Once you get exposure, it’s like your brain works in the background. All of a sudden, you go, “Oh, yeah! I know this word.” So podcasts are great for me. If I don't know something, I will look for a podcast on the subject and I start listening to it. As the words get repeated, just contextually. I don’t have to go and get a degree or anything. Just by listening to the words being spoken in context, absorb the meaning of it. So podcasting is great or YouTube or anything that you can listen. Just in reading too, of course. The best thing is talking to people. But, again, it’s really – Sometimes, it’s not trivial to put yourself in positions where people are discussing these things. [00:27:38] DC: There are actually a number of Meetups here in the Bay Area, and there’s a number of Meetups – That whole Meetup thing is sort of nationwide across the entire US and around the world it seems like now lately. Those Meetups I feel like there are a number of Meetups in different subject areas. There’s one here in the Bay Area called Papers We Love, where they actually do explore interesting technical papers, which are obviously a great place to learn the words for things, right? This is actually where those words are being defined, right? When you get into the consensus stuff, they really get into – One even is Raft. There are many papers on Raft and many papers on multiple things that get into consensus. So definitely, whether you explore a meetup on a distributed system or in a particular application or in a particular theme like Kubernetes, those things are great places just to kind of get more exposure to what people are thinking about in these problems. [00:28:31] CC: That is such a great tip. [00:28:34] MG: Yeah. The podcast is twice as good as well, because for people, non-natives – English speaker, I mean. Oh, people. Not speakers. People. The thing is that the word you’re looking for might be totally different than the English word. For example, consensus in Germany has this totally different meaning. So if I would look that up in German, likely I would find nothing or not really related at all. So you have to go through translation and then finding the stuff. So what you said, Duffie, with PWL, Papers We Love, or podcasts, those words, often they are in English, those podcasts and they are natural consensus or charting or partitioning. Those are the words that you can at least look up like what does it mean. That’s what I did as well thus far. [00:29:16] CC: Yes. I also wanted to do a plus one for Papers We Love. It’s – They are everywhere and they also have an online. They have an online version of the Papers We Love Meetup, and a lot of the local ones film their meetups. So you can go through the history and see if they talked about any paper that you are interested in. Probably, I’m sure multiple locations talk about the same paper, so you can get different takes too. It’s really, really cool. Sometimes, it’s completely obscure like, “I didn’t get a word of what they were saying. Not one. What am I doing here?” But sometimes, they talk about things. You at least know what the thing is and you get like 10% of it. But some paper you don’t. People who deal with papers day in and day out, it’s very much – I don’t know. [00:30:07] DC: It’s super easy when going through a paper like that to have the imposter syndrome wash over you, right, because you’re like – [00:30:13] CC: Yes. Thank you. That’s what I wanted to say. [00:30:15] DC: I feel like I’ve been in this for 20 years. I probably know a few things, right. But in talking about reading this consensus paper going, “Can I buy a vowel? What is happening?” [00:30:24] CC: Yeah. Can I buy a vowel? That’s awesome, Duffie. [00:30:28] DC: But the other piece I want to call out to your point, which I think is important is that some people don't want to go out and be there in person. They don’t feel comfortable or safe exploring those things in person. So there are tons of resources like you have just pointed out like the online version of Papers We Love. You can also sign into Slack and just interact with people via text messaging, right? There’s a lot of really great resources out there for people of all types, including the amount of time that you have. [00:30:53] CC: For Papers We Love, it’s like going to language class. If you go and take a class in Italian, your first day, even though that is going to be super basic, you’re going to be like, “What?” You’ll go back in your third week. You start, “Oh! I’m getting this.” Then a month, three months, “Oh! I’m starting to be competent.” So you go once. You’re going to feel lost and experience imposter syndrome. But you keep going, because that is a format. First, you start absorbing what the format is, and that helps you understand the content. So once your mind absorbs the format, you’re like, “Okay. Now, I have – I know how to navigate this. I know what’s coming next.” So you don’t have to focus on that. You start focusing in the content. Then little but little, you become more proficient in understanding. Very soon, you’re going to be willing to write a paper. I’m not there yet. [00:31:51] DC: That’s awesome. [00:31:52] CC: At least that’s how I think it goes. I don’t know. [00:31:54] MG: I agree. [00:31:55] DC: It’s also changed over time. It’s fascinating. If you read papers from like 20 years ago and you read papers that are written more recently, it's interesting. The papers have changed their language when considering competition. When you're introducing a new idea with a paper, frequently that you are introducing it into a market full of competition. You're being very careful about the language, almost in a way to complicate the idea rather than to make it clear, which is challenging. There are definitely some papers that I’ve read where I was like, “Why are you using so many words to describe this simple idea?” It makes no sense, but yeah. [00:32:37] CC: I don’t want to make this episode all about Papers We Love. It was so good that you mentioned that, Duffie. It’s really good to be in a room where we’ll be watching something online where you see people asking questions and people go, “Oh! Why is this thing like this? Why is X like this,” or, “Why is Y doing like this?” Then you go, “Oh! I didn’t even think that X was important. I didn’t even know that Y was important.” So you stop picking up what the important things are, and that’s what makes it click is now you’ve – Hooking into the important concepts because people who know more than you are pointing out and asking questions. So you start paying attention to learning what the main things it should be paying attention to, which is different from reading the paper by yourself. It’s just a ton of content that you need to sort through. [00:33:34] DC: Yeah. I frequently self-describe it as a perspective junkie, because I feel like for any of us really to learn more about a subject that we feel we understand, we need the perspective of others to really engage, to expand our understanding of that thing. I feel like and I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I’ve done it a million times. It’s a solid thing. But then I watch my kid do it and I’m like, “I hadn’t thought of that problem.” [inaudible 00:33:59], right? This is a great example of that. Those communities like Papers We Love are great opportunity to understand the perspective of others around these hard ideas. When we’re trying to understand complex things like distributed systems, this is where it’s at. This is actually how we go about achieving this. There is a lot that you can do on your own but there is always going to be more that you can do together, right? You can always do more. You can always understand this idea faster. You can understand the complexity of a system and how to break it down into these things by exploiting it with other people. That's I feel like – [00:34:40] CC: That is so well said, so well said, and it’s the reason for this show to exist, right? We come on a show and we give our perspectives, and people get to learn from people with different backgrounds, what their takes are on distributed systems, cloud native. So this was such a major plug for the show. Keep coming back. You’re going to learn a ton. Also, it was funny that you – It was the second time you mentioned cooking, made a cooking reference, Duffie, which brings me to something I want to make sure I say on this episode. I added a few things for reference, three books. But the one that I definitely would recommend starting with is The Systems Bible by John Gall. This book is so cool, because it helps you see everything through systems. Everything is a system. A conversation can be a system. An interaction between two people can be a system. I’m not saying this book says that. It’s just like my translation and that you can look – Cooking is a system. There is a process. There is a sequence. It’s really, really cool and it really helps to have things framed in this way and then go out and read the other books on systems. I think it helps a lot. This is definitely what I am starting with and what I would recommend people start with, The Systems Bible. Did you two know this book? [00:36:15] MG: I did not. I don’t. [00:36:17] DC: I’m not aware of it either but I really appreciate the idea. I do think that that's true. If you develop a skill for understanding systems as they are, you’ll basically develop – Frequently, what you’re developing is the ability to recognize patterns, right? [00:36:32] CC: Exactly. [00:36:32] DC: You could recognize those patterns on anything. [00:36:37] MG: Yeah. That's a good segue for just something that came to my mind. Recently, I gave a talk on event-driven architectures. For someone who's not a software developer or architect, it can be really hard to grab all those concepts on asynchrony and eventual consistency and idempotency. There are so many words of like, “What is this all – It sounds weird, way too complex.” But I was reading a book some years ago by Gregor Hohpe. He’s the guy behind Enterprise Integration Patterns. That’s also a book that I have on my list here. He said, “Your barista doesn't use two-phase commit.” So he was basically making this analogy of he was in a coffee shop and he was just looking at the process of how the barista makes the coffee. You pay for it and all the things that can go wrong while your coffee is brewed and served to you. So he was making this relation between the real world and the life and human society to computer systems. There it clicked to me where I was like, “So many problems we solve every day, for example, agreeing on a time where we should meet for dinner or cooking, is a consensus problem, and we solve it.” We even solve it in the case of failure. I might not be able to call Duffie, because he is not available right now. So somehow, we figure out. I always thought that those problems just exist in computer science and distributed systems. But I realized actually that's just a subset of the real world as is. Looking at those problems through the lens of your daily life and you get up and all the stuff, there are so many things that are related to computer systems. [00:38:13] CC: Michael, I missed it. Was it an article you read? [00:38:16] MG: Yes. I need to put that in there as well. Yeah. It’s a plug. [00:38:19] CC: Please put that in there. Absolutely. So far from being any kind of expert in distributed systems, but I have noticed. I have caught myself using systems thinking for even complicated conversations. Even in my personal life, I started approaching things in the systems oriented and just the – just a high-level example. When I am working with systems, I can approach from the beginning, the end. It’s like a puzzle, putting the puzzle together, right? Sometimes, it starts from the middle. Sometimes, it starts from the edges. When I‘m having conversations that I need to be very strategic like I have one shot. Let’s say maybe I’m in a school meeting and I have to reach a consensus or have a solution or have a plan of action. I have to ask the right questions. My private self would do things linearly. Historically like, “Let’s go from the beginning and work out through the end.” Now, I don’t do that anymore. Not necessarily. Sometimes, I like, “Let me maybe ask the last question I would ask and see where it leads and just approach things from a different way.” I don’t know if this is making sense. [00:39:31] MG: It does. It does. [00:39:32] CC: But my thinking has changed. The way I see the possibilities is not a linear thing anymore. I see how you can truly switch things. I use this in programming a lot and also writing. Sometimes, when you’re a beginner writer, you start at the top and you go down to the conclusion. Sometimes, I start I the middle and go up, right? So you can start anywhere. It’s beautiful or it just gives you so many more options. Or maybe I’m just crazy. Don’t listen to me. [00:40:03] DC: I don’t think you’re crazy. I was going to say, one of the funny things about Michael’s point and your point both, it’s like in a way that they have kind of referred to Conway's law, the idea that people will build systems in the way that they communicate. So this is actually – It totally brings it back to that same point of thing, right? We by nature will build systems that we can understand, because that is the constraint in which we have to work, right? So it’s very interesting. [00:40:29] CC: Yeah. But it’s an interesting thing, because we are [inaudible 00:40:32] by the way we are forced to work. For example, I work with constraints and what I'm saying is that that has been influencing my way of thinking. So, yes, I built systems in the way I think but also because of the constraints that I’m dealing with that I have to be – the tradeoffs I need to make, that also turns around and influences the way I think, the way I see the world and the rest of the systems and all the rest of the world. Of course, as I change my thinking, possibly you can theorize that you go back and apply that. Apply things that you learn outside of your work back to your work. It’s a beautiful back-and-forth I think. [00:41:17] MG: I had the same experience with some – When I had to design kind of my first API and think of, “Okay. What would the consumer contract be and what would a consumer expect me to deliver in response and so on?” I was forcing myself and being explicit in communicating and not throwing everything at the client back to confusing but being very explicit and precise. Also on communication every day when you talk to people, being explicit and precise really helps to avoid a lot of problems and trouble. Be it partnership or amongst friends or at work. This is what I took from computer science actually back into my real world in order to taking all those perceptions, perceiving things from a different perspective, and being more precise and explicit in how I respond or communicated. [00:42:07] CC: My take on what you just said, Michael, is we design systems thinking how is this going to fail. We know this is going to fail. We’re going to design for that. We’re going to implement for that. In real life, for example, if I need to get an agreement from someone, I try to understand the person's thinking and just go, “I just had this huge thing this week. This is in my mind.” I’m not constantly thinking about this, I’m not crazy like that. Just a little bit crazy. It’s like, “How does this person think? What do they need to know? How far can I push?” Right? We need to make a decision quickly, so the approach is everything, and sometimes you only get one shot, so yeah. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. That's how I heard or I interpreted what you just said. [00:42:52] MG: Yeah, absolutely. Spot on. Spot on. So I’m not crazy as well. [00:42:55] CC: Basically, I think we ended up turning this episode into a little bit of like, “Here are great references,” and also a huge endorsement for really going deep into distributed systems, because it’s going to be good for your jobs. It’s going to be good for your life. It’s going to be good for your health. We are crazy. [00:43:17] DC: I’m definitely crazy. You guys might be. I’m not. All right. So we started this episode with the idea of coming to learning distributed systems perhaps without a degree or without a formal education in it. We talked about a ride of different ideas on that subject. Like different approaches that each of us took, how each of us see the problem. Is there any important point that either of you want to throw back into the mix here or bring up in relation to that? [00:43:48] MG: Well, what I take from this episode, being my first episode and getting to know your background, Duffie and Carlisia, is that whoever is going to listen to this episode, whatever background you have, even though you might not be in computer systems or industry at all, I think we three all had approved that whatever background you have, if you’re just curious a little bit and maybe a little bit crazy, you can totally get down the rabbit hole in distributed systems and get totally excited about it. There’s no need for having formal education and the degree to enter this world. It might help but it’s kind of not a high bar that I was perceiving it to be 10 years ago, for example. [00:44:28] CC: Yeah. That’s a good point. My takeaway is it always puzzled me how some people are so good and experienced and such experts in distributed systems. I always look at myself. It’s like, “How am I lacking?” It’s like, “What memo did I miss? What class did I miss? What project did I not work on to get the experience?” What I’m seeing is you just need to put yourself in that place. You need to do the work. But the good news is achieving competency in distributed systems is doable. [00:45:02] DC: My takeaway is as we discussed before, I think that there is no one thing that comprises a distributed system. It is a number of things, right, and basically a number of behaviors or patterns that we see that comprise what a distributed system is. So when I hear people say, “I’m not an expert in distributed systems,” I think, “Well, perhaps you are and maybe you don’t know it already.” Maybe there's some particular set of patterns with which you are incredibly familiar. Like you understand DNS better than the other 20 people in the room. That exposes you to a set of patterns that certainly give you the capability of saying that you are an expert in that particular set of patterns. So I think that to both of your points, it’s like you can enter this stage where you want to learn about distributed systems from pretty much any direction. You can learn it from a CIS background. You can come it with no computer experience whatsoever, and it will obviously take a bit more work. But this is really just about developing and understanding around how these things communicate and the patterns with which they accomplish that communication. I think that’s the important part. [00:46:19] CC: All right, everybody. Thank you, Michael Gasch, for being with us now. I hope to – [00:46:25] MG: Thank you. [00:46:25] CC: To see you in more episodes [inaudible 00:46:27]. Thank you, Duffie. [00:46:30] DC: My pleasure. [00:46:31] CC: Again, I’m Carlisia Campos. With us was Duffie Cooley and Michael Gesh. This was episode 12, and I hope to see you next time. Bye. [00:46:41] DC: Bye. [00:46:41] MG: Goodbye. [END OF EPISODE] [00:46:43] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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CI and CD in Cloud Native (Ep 11)

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2020 43:15

A warm welcome to John Harris who will be joining us for his first time on the show today to discuss our exciting topic, CI and CD in cloud native! CI and CD are two terms that usually get spoken about together but are actually two different things entirely if you think about them. We begin by getting into exactly what these differences are, highlighting the regulatory aspects of CD in contrast to the future-focussed nature of CI. We then move on to a deep exploration of their benefits in optimizing processes in cloud native space through automation and surveillance from development to production environments. You’ll hear about the benefits of automatic building in container orchestration, the value of make files and local test commands, and the evolution of CI from its ‘rubber chicken’ days with Martin Fowler and Jez Humble. We take a deep dive into the many ways that containers differ from regular binary as far as deployment methods, build speed, automation, run targets, realtime reflections of changes, and regulation. Moreover, we talk to the challenges of transitioning between testing and production environments, getting past human error through automation, and using sealed secrets to manage clusters. We also discuss the benefits and drawbacks of different CI tools such as Kubebuilder, Argo, Jenkins X, and Tekton. Our conversation gets wrapped up by looking at some of the exciting developments on the horizon of CI and CD, so make sure to tune in! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Bryan Liles Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • The difference between CI and CD.• Understanding the meaning of CD: ‘continuous delivery’ and ‘continuous deployment’.• Building an artifact that can be deployed in the future is termed ‘continuous integration’.• The benefits of continuous integration for container orchestration: automatic building.• What to do before starting a project regarding make files and local test commands.• Kubebuilder is a tool that scaffolds out the creation of controllers and web hooks.• Where CI has got to as far as location since its ‘rubber chicken’ co-located days.• The prescience of Martin Fowler and Jez Humble regarding continuous integration.• The value of running tests in a CI process for quality maintenance purposes.• What makes containers great as far as architecture, output, deployment, and speed.• The benefits of CD regarding deployment automation, reflection, and regulation.• Transitioning between testing and production environments using targets, clusters, pipelines.• Getting past human error through automation via continuous deployment.• What containers mean for the traditional idea of environments.• How labeling factors into the simplicity of transitioning from development to production.• What GitOps means for keeping track of changes in environments using tags.• How sealed secrets stop the need to change an app when managing clusters.• The tools around CD and what a good CD system should look like.• Using Argo and Spinnaker to take better advantage of hardware.• How JenkinsX helps mediate YAML when installing into clusters.• Why the customizable nature of CI tools can be seen as negative.• The benefits of using cloud native-built tools like Tekton.• Perspectives on what is missing in the cloud native space.• A definition of blue-green deployments and how they operate in service meshes.• The business abstraction elements of CI tools that are lacking.• Testing and data storage-related aspects of CI/CD that need to be developed. Quotes: “With the advent of containers, now it’s as simple as identifying the images you want and basically running that image in that environment.” — @bryanl [0:18:32] “The whole goal whenever you’re thinking about continuous delivery or continuous deployment is that any human intervention on the actual moving of code is a liability and is going to break.” — @bryanl [0:21:27] “Any time you’re in developer tooling, everyone wants to do something slightly differently. All of these tools are so tweak-able that they become so general.” — @johnharris85 [0:34:23] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: John Harris — https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnharris85/Jenkins — https://jenkins.io/CircleCI — https://circleci.com/Drone — https://drone.io/Travis — https://travis-ci.org/GitLab — https://about.gitlab.com/Docker — https://www.docker.com/Go — https://golang.org/Rust — https://www.rust-lang.org/Kubebuilder — https://github.com/kubernetes-sigs/kubebuilderMartin Fowler — https://martinfowler.com/Jez Humble — https://continuousdelivery.com/about/David Farley — https://dfarley.com/index.htmlAMD — https://www.amd.com/enIntel — https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/homepage.htmlWindows — https://www.microsoft.com/en-za/windowsLinux — https://www.linux.org/Intel 386 — http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/6192/Introduction-of-Intel-386/386SX — https://www.computerworld.com/article/2475341/flashback--remembering-the-386sx.html386DX — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80386Pentium — https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/pentium.htmlAMD64 — https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/AMD64.htmlARM — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architectureTomcat — http://tomcat.apache.org/Netflix — https://www.netflix.com/za/GitOps — https://www.weave.works/technologies/gitops/Weave — https://www.weave.works/Argo — https://www.intuit.com/blog/technology/introducing-argo-flux/Spinnaker — https://www.spinnaker.io/Google X — https://x.company/Jenkins X — https://jenkins.io/projects/jenkins-x/YAML — https://yaml.org/Tekton — https://github.com/tektonCouncourse CI — https://concourse-ci.org/ Transcript: EPISODE 11 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically-minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [00:00:41] BL: Back to the Kubelets Podcast, episode 11. I’m Bryan Liles, and today we have Nicholas Lane. [00:00:50] NL: Hello! [00:00:51] BL: And joining us for the first time, we have John Harris. [00:00:55] JH: Hey everyone. How is it going? [00:00:56] BL: All right! So today we’re going to talk about CI and CD in cloud native. I want to start this off with this whole term CI and CD. We talk about them together, that are two different things almost entirely if you think about them. But CI stands for continuous integration, and then we have CD. What does CD stand for? [00:01:19] NL: Compact disk. [00:01:20] BL: Right. True, and actually I’ve used that term before. I actually do agree. But what else does CD stand for? [00:01:28] NL: It’s continuous deployment right? [00:01:30] BL: Yeah, and? [00:01:31] JH: Continuous delivery. [00:01:32] NL: Oh! I forgot about that one. [00:01:35] BL: Yeah, that’s the interesting thing, is that as we talk about tech and we give things acronyms, CD is just a great one. Change in directories, compact disk, continuous delivery and continuous deployment. Here’s the bonus question, does anyone here know the difference between continuous delivery and continuous deployment? [00:01:58] NL: Now that’s interesting. [00:01:59] JH: I would go ahead and say continuous delivery is the ability to move changes through the pipeline, but you still have the ability to do human intervention at any stage, and usually deployments production and continuous delivery would be a business decision, whereas continuous deployment is no gating and everything just go straight to product. [00:02:18] BL: Oh, John! Gold start for you, because that is one of the common ones. I just like to bring that up because we always talk about CI and CD as they are just one thing, but they’re actually way bigger topics and we’ve already introduced three things here. Let’s start at the beginning and let’s talk about continuous integration, a.k.a CI. I’ll start off. We have CI, and what is the goal of CI? I think that we always get boggled down with tech terms and all these technology and all these packages from all these companies. But I’d like to boil CI down to one simple thing. The process of continuous integration is to build an artifact that can be deployed somewhere at some future date at some future time by some future person, process. Everything else is a detail of the system you choose to use. Whether you use Jenkins, or CircleCI, or Drone, or you built your own thing, or you’re using Travis, or any of the other online CI tools. At the end of the day, you’re building either – If you’re doing web development. Maybe you’re building out Docker files, because we’re in cloud native. I mean docker images, because we’re in cloud native. But if you’re not, maybe you’re just building JARs, WARs, or EARs, or a ZIP file, or a binary, or something. I’d just like to start off, start this off with there. Any more thoughts on continuous integration? [00:03:48] NL: Yeah. I think the only times that I’ve ever used something that’s like continuous integration is when I’ve been doing like more container orchestration, like development, things on top of like things like Kubernetes, for instance. The thing I really like about it is like the concept of being able to like, from my computer, save and do an automatic save and push to a local repo and have all of the pieces get built for me automatically somewhere else, and I just love that so much because it saves so much brain thinky juice to run every command to make the binary you need. [00:04:28] BL: So did you actually create those scripts yourself? [00:04:30] NL: Some of them. When I’ve used things like GitLab, I use the pipeline that exists there and just fiddled around with like a little bit of code, like some bash there, but like not too much because GitLab has a pretty robust pipeline. Travis — I don’t think I needed to actually. Travis had a pretty good just go make Docker build, scripts already templated out for you. [00:04:53] JH: Yeah. I’d like to tell people whenever you start any project, whether it’s big or small, especially if it’s on – Not on Windows. I’ll tell you something different if it’s on Windows. But if you’re developing on a Mac or developing on Linux, the first thing you should do in your project is create a make file or your programming language equivalent of a make file, and then in that make file what you should do is write a command that will build your software that runs its tests locally, and also builds – whatever the process is. I mean, if you’re running in Go, you do a Go build. If you’re using Rust, build with Rust, or C++, or whatever before you even write any code. The reason why is because the hardest part is making your code build, and if you leave that to the end, you’re actually making it harder on yourself. If your code build works from the beginning, all you have to do is change it to fit what you’re doing rather than thinking about it when it’s crunch time. [00:05:57] NL: I actually ran into that exact scenario recently, because I’ve been building some tooling around some Kubernetes stuff, and the first one I did, I built it all manually by hand. Then at the end I was like – I gave it to the person who wanted it and they’re like, “So, where’s the make file?” I’m like, “Where’s the what?” So I had go in and like fill in the make file, and that was a huge pain in the butt. Then recently the other thing I’ve been using is Kubebuilder. John, you and I have been talking about Kubebuilder quite a bit, but using Kubebuilder, and one of the things it does for you is it scaffolds out and a make file for you, and that was like going from me doing it by myself to having it already exist for you or just having it at the beginning was so much better. I totally agree with you, Brian. [00:06:42] BL: So quick point of order here. For those of us who don’t know what Kubebuilder is. What is Kubebuilder? [00:06:48] NL: Kubebuilder is a tool that was created by members of the Kubernetes Community to scaffold out the creation of controllers and web hooks. What a controller is in Kubernetes is a piece of software that waits, sort of watches a specific object or many specific objects and reconciles them. If they noticed that something has changed and you want to make an action based on that change, the controller does that for you. [00:07:17] JH: Okay. So it actually makes the action of working with CRDs and Kubernetes much easier than creating it all yourself. [00:07:26] NL: Correct. Yeah. So, for instance, the one that I made for myself was a tool that watched, updated and watched a specific CRD, but it wasn’t necessarily a controller. It was just like flagging on whether or not a change occurred, and I used the dynamic client, and that was a huge headache on of itself. Kubebuilder has like the ability to watch not just CRDs, but any object in Kubernetes and then reconcile them based on changes. [00:07:53] NL: It’s pretty great. [00:07:54] BL: All right. So back to CI. John, do you have any opinions on CI or anecdotes or anything like that? [00:07:59] JH: Yeah. I think one of the interesting things about the original kind of philosophy of CI outside of tooling was like trunk-based development that every develop changes get integrated into trunk as soon as possible. You don’t get into integration hell and rebasing. I guess it’s kind of interesting when you apply that to a cloud native landscape where like when that stuff came out with like Martin Fowler or Jez Humble probably 10, 15 years ago almost now, a lot of dev teams were co-located. You could do CI. I think there was a rubber chicken method where you didn’t use a tool. It was just whoever had the chicken that’s responsible for the build. Just to pull everyone else’s changes. But now it seems like everything is branch-based. When you look at a project like Kubernetes, there’s a huge number of contributors all geographically displaced, different time zones, lots of different branches and features going on at the same time. It’s interesting how these original principles of continuous integration from the beginning now apply to these huge projects in the cloud native landscape. [00:08:56] BL: Yeah, that’s actually a great point of how prescient Martin Fowler has been for many, many years, and even with Jez Humble being able to see these problems 10, 15 years ago and be able to describe them. I believe Jez Humble wrote the CD book, the continuous delivery book. [00:09:15] JH: Yeah, with David Farley, I think. [00:09:18] NL: Yeah. Yeah, he did. So, John, you brought up some good things about CI. I try to simplify everything. I think the mark of someone who really knows what they’re talking about is being able to explain everything in the simplest words possible, and then you can work backwards when people understand. I started off by saying that CI produces an artifact. I didn’t talk about branches or anything like that, or even the integration piece. But now let’s go into that a little bit. There are a lot of misconceptions about CI in general, but one of the things that we talk about is that you have to run test. No, you don’t have to run test, but should you? Yes, 100% of the time. Your CI process, your integration process should actually build your software and run the test, because running the test on this dedicated service or hardware wherever it is ensures that the quality of your software is there at least as much as your developers have insured the quality in the test. It’s very important those run, and a lot of bugs of course can be spotted by running a CI. I mean, we are all sorts of developers here, and I tell you what, sometimes I forget to run the test locally and CI catches me before a commit makes it into master and it has a huge typo or a whole bunch of print lines in there. Moving on here, thinking about CI and cloud native. Whenever you’re creating a cloud native app, have you ever thought about the differences between let’s say creating just a regular binary that maybe runs on a server, but not in a container on somebody’s cloud native stack, i.e. Kubernetes? Have you ever thought about the differences of things to think about? [00:11:04] BL: Yeah. So part of it is – I would imagine or I believe it’s like things like resource, like what resources you need or what architecture you’re deploying into. You need the binary to make like run in this – With containerization, it’s easy because you’re like, “I know that the container is going to be this architecture,” but you can’t necessarily guarantee that outside of a containerized world. I mean, I suppose you can being like with the right tooling setup you can be like, “I only want to run on this.” But that isn’t necessarily guaranteed, because any computer that runs on could be just whatever architecture that happens to land on, right? Also, something to – I think of is like how do you start processes on disparate computers in a controlled fashion? Something like, again, with containers, you can trust that the container runtime will run it for you. But without that, it seems like a much harder task. [00:12:01] NL: Yeah, I would agree. Then I said that containers in general just help us out, because most of our workloads go on some AMD or Intel 64 bit and it’s Linux. We know what our output is going to be. So it’s not like in the old days where you had to actually figure out what your run target was. I mean, that’s even on Intel stacks. I mean, I’m updating myself here where you had like – When the 386 was out and then you had the 386SX and the 386DX, there were different things there, and you actually compile your code different. Then when the 46 came out and then when we had introduction of Pentium chips, things were different. But now we can pretty much all target AMD64, and in some cases, I mean, there are some chip things like the bigger encryption things that are in the newer chips. But for the most part, we know what our deployed target is going to be. But the cool thing is also that we don’t have to have Intel or AMD64. It could be ARM32 or ARM64, and with the addition to a lot of the work that has been going on in Windows land lately, we can have Windows images. I don’t know so many people were doing that yet. I’m not out and part of the field, but I like that the opportunity is there. [00:13:25] JH: Oh! I think one of the interesting things is the deployment method as well. Now with containers, everything is kind of an immutable rip and replace. Like if we develop an application, we know that the old container is going to stop when I deploy a new one. I think Netflix were doing a little bit of this before containers and some other folks with like baking AMIs and using that immutable method. But I think before that it was if we had a WAR file, we had to throw it back into Tomcat, let Tomcat pick it up or whatever. Everything was a little bit more flaky in terms of deployment. We had to do a lot of checks around deployment rather than just bring something out, bring something back in blue/green, whatever. [00:13:59] BL: Well, I actually like that you brought that up, because that’s actually one of the greatest parts of this whole cloud native thing, is that when we’re using containers and we’re deploying with containers, we know what our file system is going to look like, because we created it. There would not be some rogue file or another configuration there that will trip up our deployment, because at build time, we’ve created the environment. It’s much better than that facility that Netflix was doing with baking AMIs. In a previous life, I actually ran the facility for baking AMIs at a large company where we had thousands of developers on more than a thousand dev teams, and we had a lot of spyware. Whenever you had to build an image, it was fine in one account, but if you had let’s say a thousand accounts with the way that AWS works and encrypted images, you actually had to copy all the images to all the accounts. It couldn’t actually boot it from your account. That process would literally take all night to get it done across all of our accounts. If you made a mistake, guess what? You get to do it again. So I am glad that we actually have this thing called a container and all these things based on CRI, the container runtime, that we are able to quickly build containers. I don’t want to just limit this conversation to continuous integration. Let’s get into the other parts too with deployment and delivery. What is so novel about CD and the cloud native world? [00:15:35] NL: I think to me it’s the ability to have your code or your artifact or whatever it is, whatever you’re working on. When you make a change, you can see the change reflected in reality, whatever your reality looks like, without your intervention. I mean, you might have had to set up all the pipelines and all that jargon, but when you press save in VS code and it creates a branch and runs all your tests and then deploys it for you or delivers it for you into what you’d define as reality, that’s just so nice, because it really kind of sucks having to do the like, “Okay, I’ve got a new deployment. Destroy the old deployment. Put in the new one or like rev the new image tag or whatever in the deployment you’re doing.” All these manual steps, again, thinky-brain juice, it takes pieces of your attention away, and having these pieces like added for you is just so nice. [00:16:30] BL: Yeah, what do you think, John? [00:16:32] JH: Yeah. I think just something in the state of DevOps we’ve bought one of the best predictors for a company’s success is like cycle time of feature from ideation to production. I think like the faster we can get that cycle – It kind of gets me interested. How long does an application take to build? If it takes two hours, how good are you at getting features out there quickly? Maybe one of the drivers with microservices, smaller pieces independently deployed, we can get features out to production quicker, because I think the name of the game is just about enabling developers to put the decision in the hands of the business to decide when the customer should see that feature. I think the tighter we can make that cycle, the better for everyone. [00:17:14] BL: Oh, no! I agree. I love and hate web services, but what I do like is the idea of making these abstractions smaller, and if the abstractions are smaller, it’s less code. A lot of the languages we use now are faster compiling, let’s say, a large C++ project. That could take literally two hours to compile. But now when we have languages like Go, and Rust is not as fast, but it’s not slow as well. Then we have all of our interpret languages, whether it’d be Python, or JavaScript, or TypeScript, where we can actually go from an idea, run the test in a few minutes and build this image that we can actually run and see it almost in real-time. Now with the complexity of the tools, I mean, the features that are built in the tools, we can now easily manage multiple deployment environments, because think about before, you would have a dev environment, and that would be the Wild West. That would be literally where it would be awful. You might have to rebuild it every couple of months. Then you would have staging, and then maybe you would have some kind of pre-prod environment just as like your final smoke test, and then you would have your production. Maintaining all the software on all those was extremely hard. But now with the advent of containers, now it’s as simple as identifying the images you want and basically running that image in that environment. I like where we’ve ended up. But with all power comes new problems, and just because we can deploy quicker means we just run into a lot of different problems we didn’t run into before. The first one that I’ll bring up is the complexity. Auto conversion between environments, so moving code between test staging and production. How do we do that? Any ideas before I throw some out there? [00:19:11] NL: I guess you would have different, or maybe the same pipeline but different targets for like if say you’re using something like Kubernetes. You could have one part of your pipeline deploy initially to this Kubernetes context, which points to like one cluster. It’s building up clusters by environment type and then deploying into those, running your tests, see if it runs properly and then switch over to the next context to apply that image tag and that information and then just go down the chain until you go to production. [00:19:44] BL: Well, that’s interesting. One thing I’d like to throw out there, and I’m not advocating any particular product. But the idea of having pipelines for continuous integration and your CD process is great, where you can now have gates and you can basically automate the whole thing. Code goes into CI and we built an artifact, and a message can go out automatically to an approver or not, and that message could say, “Hey! This code is going to be integrated into our trunk or our master branch.” They can either do it themselves manually as a lot of people do or they can actually maybe click on a link or check a checkbox and this gets integrated in. Then what automatically could happen at this point is, and I’ve seen a lot of companies doing this, is now we take that software and we spin up a new whole environment and we just install that software. For that one particular feature that you worked on, you can actually get an automatic environment for that. Then what we can do is we can take that environment itself and we can now merge this maybe into a staging branch or tag it with a staging label, and that automatically gets moved to staging. Depending on how complicated you are, how advanced you are, now you can actually have it go out to your product people or people who make decisions, maybe your executives, and they can view the software in whatever context it happens to be in. Then they can say, “Okay.” Now that’s when we’re talking about now we can hit okay and the software just keeps on moving to the pipeline and it gets into production. The whole goal here, and this is actually where your goal should be just in general whenever you’re thinking about continuous delivery or continuous deployment is that any human intervention on the actual moving of code is a liability and is going to break, and it’s going to break because on Friday afternoon at 5:25 PM, someone’s thinking about the weekend and they’re not thinking about code, and they’re going to break your build. Our goal is to build these delivery systems that are Friday afternoon proof. We can push code anytime. It doesn’t matter. We trust our process. [00:22:03] JH: I think it’s a great point about environments. I think back in the day, an environment used to be a set of machines, and then test used to be – staging was where there were kind of more stable versions of APIs and folks were more coordinated pushing things into them. What really is an environment? Like you said, when we push micro services or whatever service, we can spin up an entire Kubernetes cluster just for that service. We can set it up. We can run whatever tests we want. We could tear it down. With the advent of Elastic compute, and now containers, they really enabled this world where like the traditional idea of an environment and what constitutes an environment is starting to get a bit kind of sloppy and blend into each other. [00:22:42] BL: I like it though. I think it’s progress. [00:22:45] NL: I totally agree. The one that scares me but I also find like really interesting, is the idea of having all of your environments in one set of machines. So clusters. Having a multi-tenanted set of machines for like dev staging and production, they’re all running in the same place and they’re all just separated by like what configuration of like connectivity from different networking and things like that set up. When a user hits your website, bryanliles.com, they should go to the production images, but those are binaries, and those binaries should be running in the same space essentially as the development ones. It’s scary, but it’s also like allows for like some really fast testing and integration. I find it to be very fascinating. [00:23:33] BL: I mean that’s where we want to be. I find more often than not that people have separate clusters for dev and staging and production. But using the Kubernetes API, you don’t have to do that, because what we can do is we can force deployment or workload to a set of machines based on their label. That’s actually one of the very strong positives for Kubernetes. Forget all the complexity. One of the things that makes it easy is to say that I want this particular deployment to only live on my development machines. Well, which development machine? I don’t care. What if we increase our development pool size? We just re-label nodes. It doesn’t matter. Now we can just control that. When it comes down to controlling cost and complexity, this is actually one idea that Kubernetes is leading and just making it easier to actually use more of your hardware. [00:24:31] NL: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s so great because if you think about it from a CI/CD standpoint, at that point all you have to do is just change the label to where you’re applying this piece of code. So you’re like, “Node selector, label equals dev. Okay, now it’s staging. Okay, now it’s prod.” [00:24:47] BL: So this brings me into the next part of what I want to talk about or introduce to you all today. We’re on a journey as you probably can tell. Now whenever we have our CI process and we’re building and we’re deploying, where do we store our configurations? [00:25:04] NL: [inaudible 00:25:04]. [00:25:06] BL: Ever thought about that? [00:25:08] NL: Okay. I mean, in a Kubernetes perspective, you might be using something like etcd to sort of – But like everything else, what if you’re using Travis? [inaudible 00:25:16] store everything. Everything should be versioned, right? Everything should be – [00:25:20] BL: Yeah, 100%. [00:25:24] NL: I would store everything these as much as possible. Now, do I do that all the time? God, no! Absolutely not. I’m a human being after all. [00:25:32] BL: I mean, that’s what I actually want to bring up, is this concept of GitOps. GitOps was a coined term by my friend, Alexis, who works at Weave. I think Weave created this. Really what it’s about is instead of having – basically, Kubernetes is declarative, and our configurations can be declarative too, because what we can do is make sure is we can have tech space configurations, and for one reason it’s because tech space means it can be versioned. It can be diffs. We take those text versions and we put them in our same repository we put our code in. How do we know what’s in production at any given time or any given time in the past? We just look at the tags of what we did. We had a push at 5:15 on August 13th. Of course, this is 5:15, you could see time, because any other time doesn’t exist in the computer land. So what we could do is we could just basically tag that particular version as like 2019-08-13. If I said 5-17-55, and we call 01 just so we could have 100 deploys in a day. If we started doing that, now not only can we control what we have, but we can also know what was on in any given environment at any given time. Because with Git and with Mercurial and any other of these – Well, only the popular ones, with Git and Mercurial, you can definitely do this. Any given commit can have multiple tags. You could actually have a tag that hit dev and then a tag that, let’s say, hits staging, and then a tag that hit production, the exact same code but three different tags. So you know at any given time what happened. [00:27:18] JH: Yeah, the config thing is so important. I think that was another Jez Humble quote where it was like, “Give me three hours access to your code and I’ll break it. But give me 5 minutes with your configurations and I’ll break it.” Almost like every big bug is, right, someone was accidentally pointing the prod server to the staging database like, “Oops! Their API was pointing to the wrong port, and everything came down,” or we changed the wrong versions or whatever. I think that’s one of the intersections of developers and operations folks. We kind of talked about like Dev Ops and things like that. I really love the idea of everything being kept in Git and using GitOps, but then we’ve got things like secrets and configuration that shouldn’t be seen or being able to be edited by developers, but need to be for ops folks. But we still want to keep the single point of truth. Things like sealed secrets have really enabled us to move along in this area where we can keep everything in text-based version. [00:28:08] BL: All right. Quick point of order here. Sealed secrets is a controller/CRD created by Bitnami. What it allows you do is, John – [00:28:23] JH: It allows you – It creates a CRD, which is sealed secret, which is a special resource type in your cluster and also creates a key, which is only available to that operator running in your cluster. You can submit a sealed secret in plain text or you can submit a secret in plain text and it will throw it back out as an encrypted secret with that key and then you can check that into version control. Then when you go to deploy your software, you can deploy that encrypted secret into the cluster. The operator will pick it up, decrypt it using only the key that it has access to and then put it back in the cluster as a regular secret. Your application just interacts with regular Kubernetes secrets. You don’t need to change your app. They deal with all the encryption outside of the user intervention. [00:29:03] BL: I think the most important part of what you said is that this allows us to have no excuses about what we can store in our repositories for our configuration, because someone is going to make the argument, “No, we can’t store secrets, because someone’s going to be able to see them.” Well, guess what? We never even stored an unencrypted secret in our repository. They’re all encrypted, and it’s still secrets. It’s [inaudible 00:29:25]. I don’t know if anyone’s cracked yet. I’m sure maybe a state level actor has thought of it. But for us regular people, even our companies, like even at VMware, or even at Google, they have not done it yet. So it’s still pretty safe. Thinking even further now, and really what I’m trying to paint the picture of is not just how do you do CD, but really what CD could look like and how it can actually make you happy rather than sad. The next item I wanted to think about was tools around CD and creating tools and what does a good continuous delivery system look like. I kind of hinted about this earlier whenever I was talking about pipelines. The ability to take advantage of your hardware, so we’re deploying to let’s say 100 servers. We’re pulling 5 or 6 services to 100 node cluster. We can do those all at once, and what we can do is you want to have a system that can actually run like this. I could think of a couple. From Intuit, there is Argo, and they have Argo CD. There is the tool created by Google and maybe Netflix. I want to have to look that one up. It’s funny, because they quoted – [00:30:40] JH: Spinnaker? [00:30:42] BL: Spinnaker. They quoted me in their book, and I don’t remember their name. I’m sorry anyone from Spinnaker product listening. Once again, not advocating any products, but they have the concept of doing pipelines. Then you also have other things for your projects, like if you’re using open source, Drone. Another X Google – I think it was X-Googler that made this. Basically, they have ways you can do more than one thing at a time. The most important piece about this is not only can you do more than one thing at a time, is that you have a programmatic check that it’ll make sure that you can verify that whatever you did was successful. We deployed to staging or we deployed to our smoke test servers for our smoke test, and that requires our testing people and an executive signoff. They can actually just wait until they get their signoff or maybe if it goes over a day or so, they can actually – It just fails, and now the build is done. But that part is pretty neat. Any other topics over here before I start throwing out more? [00:31:45] NL: I think I just have thoughts on some of the tools that we’ve used. Everyone Jenkins. Jenkins can do anything that you want it to do, but you really have to tighten the screws on it. It is super powerful. It’s kind of like Bash, like Bash scripting. It’s super powerful, but you have to know precisely what you’re doing, otherwise it can really hurt you. Actually, I have used Spinnaker in the past, and I’ve really liked it. It has a good UI, very good pipelines. Easy blue/green or canary deployment mechanism, I thought that was great. I’ve looked at Drone, believe it or not, but Drone is actually pretty cool. Check out Drone. I really liked it. [00:32:25] BL: Well, since we’re throwing out products, Jenkins, does have JenkinsX. I have not given it the full rundown yet. But what I do like about it, and I think everyone should pay attention to this if you’re doing a product in this space, is that when you install JenkinsX, you install it locally to your machine. You basically get this binary called JX, and you then tell JX to install it into your cluster. Instead of just doing kubectl apply-f a whole bunch of YAML, it actually ask you questions and it sets up GitHub repositories or wherever you need these repositories. It sets up [inaudible 00:33:01] spaces for you. There’s no just [inaudible 00:33:05] kubectl apply-f HTTPS: I just owned your system, because that’s actually a problem. Then it solves the YAML sprawl, because YAML and Kubernetes is something that is complained about a lot, but it’s how it’s configured. But it’s also just a detail what we’re supposed to be doing, and we actually work with Joe Beda and I could talk about this all the time, is that the YAML is the implementation, but it’s not the idea. The idea is that we build tools on top of that that create YAML so users have to see less YAML. I think that’s a problem with Jenkins, is that it’s so powerful and they’re like, “Well, we want powerful people or smart people to be able to do smart things. So here you go.” The problem with that is that where do I start? It’s a little daunting. So I do think that they definitely came with the much stronger game with this JX command. Just as a little sidebar, we do it as well with our Valero project, and I think that just speaks, should be like the bar for anything. If you’re installing something into a cluster, you should come up with a command line tool that helps you manage the lifecycle of whatever you’re installing to the operator, YAML, whatever. [00:34:18] JH: I think what’s interesting about the options, this is definitely one area where there’s so much nuance. Any time you’re in developer tooling, everyone wants to do something slightly differently. All of these tools are so tweak-able that they become so general. I think it’s probably one of the criticisms that could be leveraged against Jenkins is that you can do everything, and that’s actually a negative as well as a positive. Sometimes it’s too overwhelming. There are too many ways of doing things. I’m a fan of some of the more kind opinionated tools in that space. [00:34:45] BL: Yeah. I like opinionated tools as well, but the problem that we’re having in this cloud native space is that, yeah, Kubernetes is five-years-old now. We are just getting to the point where we actually understand what a good decision is, because there was a lot of guesses before and we’ve done a lot of things, and some of these have been good ideas, but in some cases they have not been great ideas. Even I ran the project case on it. Great idea on paper, but implementation, it required people to know too many things. We’d learned a lot of lessons from that. That’s what I think we’re going to find out in this space is that we’re going to learn little lessons. I say this project from my last project that I was going to bring up is something that I think has learned some of the lessons. Google sponsors a project called Tekton, and if you go to – It’s like I believe, and they have some continuous delivery stuff in there and they implement pipelines. But the neat part is, and this is actually the best part, it’s actually a cloud native built service. So every step of your delivery process, from creating images, to actually putting them on clusters, is backed by a Docker image or a container, and I think that part is pretty neat. So now you can define your steps. What is your step? Well, you can use one of their pre-baked, run this command, or if you have something special, like the example before I was giving out where you would say that you need an approval, maybe it’s a Slack approval. You send something with Slack and it has a checkbox, check yes if you like me. What we can do now is we can actually control that and it’s easy to write something a little Docker image that can actually make that call and then get the request and then it can move it on. If you’re looking at more of a toolkit full of good ideas, I do think that Tekton has definitely has some lots of industry. People are looking at it and it’s probably the best example of getting it right in the cloud native way. Because a lot of the products we have now are not cloud native. We’re talking about Jenkins. We’re talking about Spinnaker and we talk about Drone and Travis, which is totally a SaaS product. They’re not cloud native. Actually, the neat part about Tekton is that it actually comes with its own controllers and its own CRDs. So you can actually build these things up using your familiar Kubernetes tooling, which means in theory we could actually use the tooling that we are deploying. We can actually control it in the same way as our applications, because it’s just yet another object that goes in our cluster. [00:37:21] NL: That does sound pretty cool. One other that I meant to bring up was Concourse. Have you check out Concourse yet? [00:37:27] BL: CouncourseCI. I have not. I have used it, but never in a way where I would have a big opinion on it. [00:37:34] NL: I’m kind of in the same place. I think it’s a good idea. It seems really neat, but I need to kick the tires a little more. I will say that I really like the UI. The structure of the UI is really nice. Everything makes sense, and anything you can click on like drills into something a bit deeper. I think that’s pretty cool, but it is one of the shout that I went out to as well as like another tool that I’m aware of. [00:37:52] BL: Yeah, that’s pretty interesting. So we’ve gone about 40 minutes now. Let’s actually start winding this down, and the way that I’m going to suggest that we wind this down is thinking about where we are now. What’s missing in this space and what else could we actually be doing in the cloud native space to make this work out better? [00:38:12] NL: I think I’d like to see better structured or better examples of blue-green or canary deployments with tests associated, and that might just be like me not looking hard enough at this problem. But anytime I began looking at blue-green, I get the idea of what someone’s done, but I would love to see some implementation details, or any of these opinionated tools having opinions around blue-green and what they specifically do to test it. I feel like I’m just not seeing that. [00:38:41] BL: With blue-green, blue-green is hard to do in Kubernetes without an external tool, because for everyone, a blue-green deployment is, I have a software deployment and we’ll give it a color. We’ll call it blue, and I have the next version, and we’ll call it green. Really what I can do is I basically have two versions of my application deployed and I can use my load balancer, or in this case, my service to just change the label or the selector in my service and now I can point at at my green from my blue. Then I want to deploy again, I can just deploy another blue and then change my label selector again. The problem with this is that you can do it in Kubernetes, just fine. But out of the box with Kubernetes, you will drop traffic, because guess what? What happens to a connection that was initiated or a session that was initiated on the blue cluster when you went to green? Actually, this is a whole conversation in itself about service meshes and this is actually one of the reasons service mesh is a big topic, because you can do this blue-green, or another example would be Netflix and Redblack, or you get the creative people who are like rainbow deployments, because just having two is not good enough for them. So they want to have any number of deployments going at one time. I agree with that 100%. [00:39:57] JH: I think, yeah, integrating tools like launch. [inaudible 00:40:01] and I think there are more which enable – I think we’re missing the business abstractions on this stuff so far. Like you said, it’s kind of hard to do if you need to go into the gritty of it right now, but I think the business abstractions of if we deploy a different version to a certain subset of customers, can we get all of those metrics? Can we get those traces back in? Will you automate it, roll it out? Can we increase the percentage of customers that are seeing those things? Have that all controlled in a Kubernetes native way, but having roll it up to a business and more of an abstraction. I think that stuff is currently missing. I think the underpinning kind of technologies are coming up, stuff like service mesh, but I think it’s the abstraction that’s really going to make it useful, which doesn’t exist today. [00:40:39] BL: Yeah. Actually, that’s pretty close to what I was going to say. We built all these tooling that helps us basically as technologists, but really what it comes down to is the business. A lot of the things we’re talking about where we’re talking about CD is important to the business, but when we’re talking about metrics or trace collection, that’s not important to the business, because they only care about the SLA. This is on the SLO side. What we really need to do is mature our processes enough that we can actually marry our outputs to something that other people can understand that has no jargon and it’s sales going up, sales going down. Everything else is just a detail. So, anything else? [00:41:20] NL: Something I think I’d like to see is in our testing, if there was a good way to accurately show the effect of something at load in a CI/CD component. Because one of the things that I’ve run into is like I’ve got this great idea for how this code should work and when I deploy it, it works great. The like a thousand people touch it all at once and it doesn’t work right anymore. I’d love to have some tool along the way that can test things out of load and like show me something that I could fix before all those people touch it. [00:41:57] BL: Yes, that would be a good tool to have. So John, anything else for you? [00:42:02] JH: I’ll open a can of worms right at the end and say the biggest problem here is probably going to be data when we have a lot of systems we need to talk to each other and we need the data to align between those systems and we have now proliferation of environments and clusters. Like how do we get that data reliably into the place that it needs to be to make up testing robust enough to get things out there? It’s probably an episode on some – [00:42:23] BL: Yeah, that’s a big conversation that if we could answer it, we wouldn’t working at VMware. We would have our own companies doing all these great things. But we can definitely iterate on it. So with that, I think we’re going to wrap it up. Thanks for listening to the Kubelets. I’m Bryan Liles, and with me today was Nicholas Lane and John – Yeah, and John Harris. [00:42:47] JH: Thanks everyone. [00:42:47] BL: All right, we’ll see you next time. [END OF EPISODE] [00:42:50] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Dichotomy of Security (Ep 10)

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 30, 2019 44:20

Security is inherently dichotomous because it involves hardening an application to protect it from external threats, while at the same time ensuring agility and the ability to iterate as fast as possible. This in-built tension is the major focal point of today’s show, where we talk about all things security. From our discussion, we discover that there are several reasons for this tension. The overarching problem with security is that the starting point is often rules and parameters, rather than understanding what the system is used for. This results in security being heavily constraining. For this to change, a culture shift is necessary, where security people and developers come around the same table and define what optimizing to each of them means. This, however, is much easier said than done as security is usually only brought in at the later stages of development. We also discuss why the problem of security needs to be reframed, the importance of defining what normal functionality is and issues around response and detection, along with many other security insights. The intersection of cloud native and security is an interesting one, so tune in today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Bryan Liles Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: Often application and program security constrain optimum functionality. Generally, when security is talked about, it relates to the symptoms, not the root problem. Developers have not adapted internal interfaces to security. Look at what a framework or tool might be used for and then make constraints from there. The three frameworks people point to when talking about security: FISMA, NIST, and CIS. Trying to abide by all of the parameters is impossible. It is important to define what normal access is to understand what constraints look like. Why it is useful to use auditing logs in pre-production. There needs to be a discussion between developers and security people. How security with Kubernetes and other cloud native programs work. There has been some growth in securing secrets in Kubernetes over the past year. Blast radius – why understanding the extent of security malfunction effect is important. Chaos engineering is a useful framework for understanding vulnerability. Reaching across the table – why open conversations are the best solution to the dichotomy. Security and developers need to have the same goals and jargon from the outset. The current model only brings security in at the end stages of development. There needs to be a place to learn what normal functionality looks like outside of production. How Google manages to run everything in production. It is difficult to come up with security solutions for differing contexts. Why people want service meshes. Quotes: “You’re not able to actually make use of the platform as it was designed to be made use of, when those constraints are too tight.” — @mauilion [0:02:21] “The reason that people are scared of security is because security is opaque and security is opaque because a lot of people like to keep it opaque but it doesn’t have to be that way.” — @bryanl [0:04:15] “Defining what that normal access looks like is critical to us to our ability to constrain it.” — @mauilion [0:08:21] “Understanding all the avenues that you could be impacted is a daunting task.” — @apinick [0:18:44] “There has to be a place where you can go play and learn what normal is and then you can move into a world in which you can actually enforce what that normal looks like with reasonable constraints.” — @mauilion [0:33:04] “You don’t learn to ride a motorcycle on the street. You’d learn to ride a motorcycle on the dirt.” — @apinick [0:33:57] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/Kubernetes https://kubernetes.io/IAM https://aws.amazon.com/iam/Securing a Cluster — https://kubernetes.io/docs/tasks/administer-cluster/securing-a-cluster/TGI Kubernetes 065 — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uy2V2kYl4U&list=PL7bmigfV0EqQzxcNpmcdTJ9eFRPBe-iZa&index=33&t=0sTGI Kubernetes 066 —https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-vRlW7VYio&list=PL7bmigfV0EqQzxcNpmcdTJ9eFRPBe-iZa&index=32&t=0sBitnami — https://bitnami.com/Target — https://www.target.com/Netflix — https://www.netflix.com/HashiCorp — https://www.hashicorp.com/Aqua Sec — https://www.aquasec.com/CyberArk — https://www.cyberark.com/Jeff Bezos — https://www.forbes.com/profile/jeff-bezos/#4c3104291b23Istio — https://istio.io/Linkerd — https://linkerd.io/ Transcript: EPISODE 10 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores cloud native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.2] NL: Hello and welcome back to The Kubelets Podcast. My name is Nicholas Lane and this time, we’re going to be talking about the dichotomy of security. And to talk about such an interesting topic, joining me are Duffie Coolie. [0:00:54.3] DC: Hey, everybody. [0:00:55.6] NL: Bryan Liles. [0:00:57.0] BM: Hello [0:00:57.5] NL: And Carlisia Campos. [0:00:59.4] CC: Glad to be here. [0:01:00.8] NL: So, how’s it going everybody? [0:01:01.8] DC: Great. [0:01:03.2] NL: Yeah, this I think is an interesting topic. Duffie, you introduced us to this topic. And basically, what I understand, what you wanted to talk about, we’re calling it the dichotomy of security because it’s the relationship between security, like hardening your application to protect it from attack and influence from outside actors and agility to be able to create something that’s useful, the ability to iterate as fast as possible. [0:01:30.2] DC: Exactly. I mean, the idea from this came from putting together a talks for the security conference coming up here in a couple of weeks. And I was noticing that obviously, if you look at the job of somebody who is trying to provide some security for applications on their particular platform, whether that be AWS or GCE or OpenStack or Kubernetes or anything of these things. It’s frequently in their domain to kind of define constraints for all of the applications that would be deployed there, right? Such that you can provide rational defaults for things, right? Maybe you want to make sure that things can’t do a particular action because you don’t want to allow that for any application within your platform or you want to provide some constraint around quota or all of these things. And some of those constraints make total sense and some of them I think actually do impact your ability to design the systems or to consume that platform directly, right? You’re not able to actually make use of the platform as it was designed to be made use of, when those constraints are too tight. [0:02:27.1] DC: Yeah. I totally agree. There’s kind of a joke that we have in certain tech fields which is the primary responsibility of security is to halt productivity. It isn’t actually true, right? But there are tradeoffs, right? If security is too tight, you can’t move forward, right? Example of this that kind of mind are like, if you’re too tight on your firewall rules where you can’t actually use anything of value. That’s a quick example of like security gone haywire. That’s too controlling, I think. [0:02:58.2] BM: Actually. This is an interesting topic just in general but I think that before we fall prey to what everyone does when they talk about security, let’s take a step back and understand why things are the way they are. Because all we’re talking about are the symptoms of what’s going on and I’ll give you one quick example of why I say this. Things are the way they are because we haven’t made them any better. In developer land, whenever we consume external resources, what we were supposed to do and what we should be doing but what we don’t do is we should create our internal interfaces. Only program to those interfaces and then let that interface of that adapt or talk to the external service and in security world, we should be doing the same thing and we don’t do this. My canonical example for this is IAM on AWS. It’s hard to create a secure IM configuration and it’s even harder to keep it over time and it’s even harder to do it whenever you have 150, 100, 5,000 people dealing with this. What companies do is they actually create interfaces where they could describe the part of IAM they want to use and then they translate that over. The reason I bring this up is because the reason that people are scared of security is because security is opaque and security is opaque because a lot of people like to keep it opaque. But it doesn’t have to be that way. [0:04:24.3] NL: That’s a good point, that’s a reasonable design and wherever I see that devoted actually is very helpful, right? Because you highlight a critical point in that these constraints have to be understood by the people who are constrained by them, right? It will just continue to kind of like drive that wedge between the people who are responsible for them top finding t hem and the people who are being affected by them, right? That transparency, I think it’s definitely key. [0:04:48.0] BM: Right, this is our cloud native discussion, any idea of where we should start thinking about this in cloud native land? [0:04:56.0] DC: For my part, I think it’s important to understand if you can like what the consumer of a particular framework or tool might need, right? And then, just take it from there and figure out what rational constraints are. Rather than the opposite which is frequently where people go and evaluate a set of rules as defined by some particular, some third-part company. Like you look at CIS packs and you look at like a lot of these other tooling. I feel like a lot of people look at those as like, these are the hard rules, we must comply to all of these things. Legally, in some cases, that’s the case. But frequently, I think they’re just kind of like casting about for some semblance of a way to start defining constraint and they go too far, they’re no longer taking into account what the consumers of that particular platform might meet, right? Kubernetes is a great example of this. If you look at the CIS spec for Kubernetes or if you look at a lot of the talks that I’ve seen kind of around how to secure Kubernetes, we defined like best practices for security and a lot of them are incredibly restrictive, right? I think of the problem there is that restriction comes at a cost of agility. You’re no longer able to use Kubernetes as a platform for developing microservices because you provided so much constraints that it breaks the model, you know? [0:06:12.4] NL: Okay. Let’s break this down again. I can think of a top of my head, three types of things people point to when I’m thinking about security. And spoiler alert, I am going to do some acronyms but don’t worry about the acronyms are, just understand they are security things. The first one I’ll bring up is FISMA and then I’ll think about NIST and the next one is CIS like you brought up. Really, the reason they’re so prevalent is because depending on where you are, whether you’re in a highly regulated place like a bank or you’re working for the government or you have some kind of automate concern to say a PIPA or something like that. These are the words that the auditors will use with you. There is good in those because people don’t like the CIS benchmarks because sometimes, we don’t understand why they’re there. But, from someone who is starting from nothing, those are actually great, there’s at least a great set of suggestions. But the problem is you have to understand that they’re only suggestions and they are trying to get you to a better place than you might need. But, the other side of this is that, we should never start with NIST or CIS or FISMA. What we really should do is our CISO or our Chief Security Officer or the person in charge of security. Or even just our – people who are in charge, making sure our stack, they should be defining, they should be taking what they know, whether it’s the standards and they should be building up this security posture in this security document and these rules that are built to protect whatever we’re trying to do. And then, the developers of whoever else can operate within that rather than everything literally. [0:07:46.4] DC: Yeah, agreed. Another thing I’ve spent some time talking to people about like when they start rationalizing how to implement these things or even just think about the secure surface or develop a threat model or any of those things, right? One of the things that I think it’s important is the ability to define kind of like what normal looks like, right? What normal access between applications or normal access of resources looks like. I think that your point earlier, maybe provides some abstraction in front of a secure resource such that you can actually just share that same fraction across all the things that might try to consume that external resource is a great example of the thing. Defining what that normal access looks like is critical to us to our ability to constrain it, right? I think that frequently people don’t start there, they start with the other side, they’re saying, here are all the constraints, you need to tell me which ones are too tight. You need to tell me which ones to loosen up so that you can do your job. You need to tell me which application needs access to whichever application so that I can open the firewall for you. I’m like, we need to turn that on its head. We need the environments that are perhaps less secure so that we can actually define what normal looks like and then take that definition and move it into a more secured state, perhaps by defining these across different environments, right? [0:08:58.1] BM: A good example of that would be in larger organizations, at every part of the organization does this but there is environments running your application where there are really no rules applied. What we do with that is we turn on auditing in those environments so you have two applications or a single application that talks to something and you let that application run and then after the application run, you go take a look at the audit logs and then you determine at that point what a good profile of this application is. Whenever it’s in production, you set up the security parameters, whether it be identity access or network, based on what you saw in auditing in your preproduction environment. That’s all you could run because we tested it fully in our preproduction environment, it should not do any more than that. And that’s actually something – I’ve seen tools that will do it for AWS IM. I’m sure you can do for anything else that creates auditing law. That’s a good way to get started. [0:09:54.5] NL: It sounds like what we’re coming to is that the breakdown of security or the way that security has impacted agility is when people don’t take a rational look at their own use case. instead, rely too much on the guidance of other people essentially. Instead of using things like the CIS benchmarking or NIST or FISMA, that’s one that I knew the other two and I’m like, I don’t know this other one. If they follow them less as guidelines and more as like hard set rules, that’s when we get impacts or agility. Instead of like, “Hey. This is what my application needs like you’re saying, let’s go from there.” What does this one look like? Duffie is for saying. I’m kind of curious, let’s flip that on its head a little bit, are there examples of times when agility impacts security? [0:10:39.7] BM: You want to move fast and moving fast is counter to being secure? [0:10:44.5] NL: Yes. [0:10:46.0] DC: Yeah, literally every single time we run software. When it comes down to is developers are going to want to develop and then security people are going to want to secure. And generally, I’m looking at it from a developer who has written security software that a lot of people have used, you guys had know that. Really, there needs to be a conversation, it’s the same thing as we had this dev ops conversation for a year – and then over the last couple of years, this whole dev set ops conversation has been happening. We need to have this conversation because from a security person’s point of view, you know, no access is great access. No data, you can’t get owned if you don’t have any data going across the wire. You know what? Can’t get into that server if there’s no ports opened. But practically, that doesn’t work and we find is that there is actually a failing on both sides to understand what the other person was optimizing for. [0:11:41.2] BM: That’s actually where a lot of this comes from. I will offer up that the only default secure posture is no access to anything and you should be working from that direction to where you want to be rather than working from, what should we close down? You should close down everything and then you work with allowing this list for other than block list. [0:12:00.9] NL: Yeah, I agree with that model but I think that there’s an important step that has to happen before that and that’s you know, the tooling or thee wireless phone to define what the application looks like when it’s in a normal state or the running state and if we can accomplish that, then I feel like we’re in a better position to find what that LOI list looks like and I think that one of the other challenges there of course, let’s backup for a second. I have actually worked on a platform that supported many services, hundreds of services, right? Clearly, if I needed to define what normal looked like for a hundred services or a thousand services or 2,000 services, that’s going to be difficult in a way that people approach the problem, right? How do you define for each individual service? I need to have some decoration of intent. I need the developer to engage here and tell me, what they’re expecting, to set some assumptions about the application like what it’s going to connect to, those dependences are – That sort of stuff. And I also need tooling to verify that. I need to be able to kind of like build up the whole thing so that I have some way of automatically, you know, maybe with oversight, defining what that security context looks like for this particular service on this particular platform. Trying to do it holistically is actually I think where we get into trouble, right? Obviously, we can’t scale the number of people that it takes to actually understand all of these individual services. We need to actually scale this stuff as software problem instead. [0:13:22.4] CC: With the cloud native architecture and infrastructure, I wonder if it makes it more restrictive because let’s say, these are running on Kubernetes, everything is running at Kubernetes. Things are more connected because it’s a Kubernetes, right? It’s this one huge thing that you’re running on and Kubernetes makes it easier to have access to different notes and when the nodes took those apart, of course, you have to find this connection. Still, it’s supposed to make it easy. I wonder if security from a perspective of somebody, needing to put a restriction and add miff or example, makes it harder or if it makes it easier to just delegate, you have this entire area here for you and because your app is constrained to this space or name space or this part, this node, then you can have as much access as you need, is there any difference? Do you know what I mean? Does it make sense what I said? [0:14:23.9] BM: There was actually, it’s exactly the same thing as we had before. We need to make sure that applications have access to what they need and don’t have access to what they don’t need. Now, Kubernetes does make it easier because you can have network policies and you can apply those and they’re easier to manage than who knows what networking management is holding you have. Kubernetes also has pod security policies which again, actually confederates this knowledge around my pod should be able to do this or should not be able to run its root, it shouldn’t be able to do this and be able to do that. It’s still the same practice Carlisia, but the way that we can control it is now with a standard set off tools. We still have not cracked the whole nut because the whole thing of turning auditing on to understand and then having great tool that can read audit locks from Kubernetes, just still aren’t there. Just to add one more last thing that before we add VMWare and we were Heptio, we had a coworker who wrote basically dynamic audit and that was probably one of the first steps that we would need to be able to employ this at scale. We are early, early, super early in our journey and getting this right, we just don’t have all the necessary tools yet. That’s why it’s hard and that’s why people don’t do it. [0:15:39.6] NL: I do think it is nice to have t hose and primitives are available to people who are making use of that platform though, right? Because again, kind of opens up that conversation, right? Around transparency. The goal being, if you understood the tools that we’re defining that constraint, perhaps you’d have access to view what the constraints are and understand if they’re actually rational or not with your applications. When you’re trying to resolve like I have deployed my application in dev and it’s the wild west, there’s no constraints anywhere. I can do anything within dev, right? When I’m trying to actually promote my application to staging, it gives you some platform around which you can actually sa, “If you want to get to staging, I do have to enforce these things and I have a way and again, all still part of that same API, I still have that same user experience that I had when just deploying or designing the application to getting them deployed.” I could still look at again and understand what the constraints are being applied and make sure that they’re reasonable for my application. Does my application run, does it have access to the network resources that it needs to? If not, can I see where the gaps are, you know? [0:16:38.6] DC: For anyone listening to this. Kubernetes doesn’t have all the documentation we need and no one has actually written this book yet. But on Kubernetes.io, there are a couple of documents about security and if we have shownotes, I will make sure those get included in our shownotes because I think there are things that you should at least understand what’s in a pod security policy. You should at least understand what’s in a network security policy. You should at least understand how roles and role bindings work. You should understand what you’re going to do for certificate management. How do you manage this certificate authority in Kubernetes? How do you actually work these things out? This is where you should start before you do anything else really fancy. At least, understand your landscape. [0:17:22.7] CC: Jeffrey did a TGI K talk on secrets. I think was that a series? There were a couple of them, Duffie? [0:17:29.7] DC: Yeah, there were. I need to get back and do a little more but yeah. [0:17:33.4] BM: We should then add those to our shownotes too. Hopefully they actually exist or I’m willing to see to it because in assistance. [0:17:40.3] CC: We are going to have shownotes, yes. [0:17:44.0] NL: That is interesting point, bringing up secrets and secret management and also, like secured Inexhibit. There are some tools that exist that we can use now in a cloud native world, at least in the container world. Things like vault exist, things like well, now, KBDM you can roll certificate which is really nice. We are getting to a place where we have more tooling available and I’m really happy about it. Because I remember using Kubernetes a year ago and everyone’s like, “Well. How do you secure a secret in Kubernetes?” And I’m like, “Well, it sure is basics for you to encode it. That’s on an all secure.” [0:18:15.5] BM: I would do credit Bitnami has been doing sealed secrets, that’s been out for quite a while but the problem is that how do you suppose to know about that and how are you supposed to know if it’s a good standard? And then also, how are you supposed to benchmark against that? How do you know if your secrets are okay? We haven’t talked about the other side which is response or detection of issues. We’re just talking about starting out, what do you do? [0:18:42.3] DC: That’s right. [0:18:42.6] NL: It is tricky. We’re just saying like, understanding all the avenues that you could be impacted is kind of a daunting task. Let’s talk about like the Target breach that occurred a few years ago? If anybody doesn’t remember this, basically, Target had a huge credit card breach from their database and basically, what happened is that t heir – If I recalled properly, their OIDC token had a – not expired but the audience for it was so broad that someone had hacked into one computer essentially like a register or something and they were able to get the OIDC token form the local machine. The authentication audience for that whole token was so broad that they were able to access the database that had all of the credit card information into it. These are one of these things that you don’t think about when you’re setting up security, when you’re just maybe getting started or something like that. What are the avenues of attack, right? You’d say like, “OIDC is just pure authentication mechanism, why would we need to concern ourselves with this?” And then but not understanding kind of what we were talking about last because the networking and the broadcasting, what is the blast radius of something like this and so, I feel like this is a good example of sometimes security can be really hard and getting started can be really daunting. [0:19:54.6] DC: Yeah, I agree. To Bryan’s point, it’s like, how do you test against this? How do you know that what you’ve defined is enough, right? We can define all of these constraints and we can even think that they’re pretty reasonable or rational and the application may come up and operate but how do you know? How can you verify that? What you’ve done is enough? And then also, remember. With OIDC has its own foundations and loft. You realize that it’s a very strong door but it’s only a strong door, it also do things that you can’t walk around a wall and that it’s protecting or climb over the wall that it’s protecting. There’s a bit of trust and when you get into things like the target breach, you really have to understand blast radius for anything that you’re going to do. A good example would be if you’re using shared key kind of things or like public share key. You have certificate authorities and you’re generating certificates. You should probably have multiple certificate authorities and you can have a basically, a hierarchy of these so you could have basically the root one controlled by just a few people in security. And then, each department has their own certificate authority and then you should also have things like revocation, you should be able to say that, “Hey, all this is bad and it should all go away and it probably should have every revocation list,” which a lot of us don’t have believe it or not, internally. Where if I actually kill our own certificate, a certificate was generated and I put it in my revocation list, it should not be served and in our clients that are accepting that our service is to see that, if we’re using client side certificates, we should reject these instantly. Really, what we need to do is stop looking at security as this one big thing and we need to figure out what are our blast radius. Firecracker, blowing up in my hand, it’s going to hurt me. But Nick, it’s not going to hurt you, you know? If someone drops in a huge nuclear bomb on the United States or the west coast United States, I’m talking to myself right now. You got to think about it like that. What’s the worst that can happen if this thing gets busted or get shared or someone finds that this should not happen? Every piece off data that you have that you consider secure or sensitive, you should be able to figure out what that means and that is how whenever you are defining a security posture that’s butchered to me. Because that is why you’ll notice that a lot of companies some of them do run open within a contained zone. So, within this contained zone you could talk to whomever you want. We don’t actually have to be secure here because if we lose one, we lost them all so who cares? So, we need to think about that and how do we do that in Kubernetes? Well, we use things like name spaces first of all and then we use things like this network policies and then we use things like pod security policies. We can lock some access down to just name spaces if need be. You can only talk to pods and your name space. And I am not telling you how to do this but you need to figure out talking with your developer, talking to the security people. But if you are in security you need to talk to your product management staff and your software engineering staff to figure out really how does this need to work? So, you realize that security is fun and we have all sorts of neat tools depending on what side you’re on. You know if you are on red team, you’re half knee in, you’re blue team you are saving things. We need to figure out these conversations and tooling comes from these conversations but we need to have these conversation first. [0:23:11.0] DC: I feel like a little bit of a broken record on this one but I am going to go back to chaos engineering again because I feel like it is critical to stuff like this because it enables a culture in which you can explore both the behavior of applications itself but why not also use this model to explore different ways of accessing that information? Or coming up with theories about the way the system might be vulnerable based on a particular attack or a type of attack, right? I think that this is actually one of the movements within our space that I think provides because then most hope in this particular scenario because a reasonable chaos engineering practice within an organization enables that ability to explore all of the things. You don’t have to be red team or blue team. You can just be somebody who understands this application well and the question for the day is, “How can we attack this application?” Let’s come up with theories about the way that perhaps this application could be attacked. Think about the problem differently instead of thinking about it as an access problem, think about it as the way that you extend trust to the other components within your particular distributed system like do they have access that they don’t need. Come up with a theory around being able to use some proxy component of another system to attack yet a third system. You know start playing with those ideas and prove them out within your application. A culture that embraces that I think is going to be by far a more secure culture because it lets developers and engineers explore these systems in ways that we don’t generally explore them. [0:24:36.0] BM: Right. But also, if I could operate on myself I would never need a doctor. And the reason I bring that up is because we use terms like chaos engineering and this is no disrespect to you Duffie, so don’t take it as this is panacea or this idea that we make things better and true. That is fine, it will make us better but the little secret behind chaos engineering is that it is hard. It is hard to build these experiments first of all, it is hard to collect results from these experiments. And then it is hard to extrapolate what you got out of the experiments to apply to whatever you are working on to repeat and what I would like to see is what people in our space is talking about how we can apply such techniques. But whether it is giving us more words or giving us more software that we can employ because I hate to say it, it is pretty chaotic in chaos engineering right now for Kubernetes. Because if you look at all the people out there who have done it well. And so, you look at what Netflix has done with pioneering this and then you listen to what, a company such us like Gremlin is talking about it is all fine and dandy. You need to realize that it is another piece of complexity that you have to own and just like any other things in the security world, you need to rationalize how much time you are going to spend on it first is the bottom line because if I have a “Hello, World!” app, I don’t really care about network access to that. Unless it is a “Hello, World!” app running on the same subnet as some doing some PCI data then you know it is a different conversation. [0:26:05.5] DC: Yeah. I agree and I am certainly not trying to version as a panacea but what I am trying to describe is that I feel like I am having a culture that embraces that sort of thinking is going to enable us to be in a better position to secure these applications or to handle a breach or to deal with very hard to understand or resolve problems at scale, you know? Whether that is a number of connections per second or whether that is a number of applications that we have horizontally scaled. You know like being able to embrace that sort of a culture where we asked why where we say “well, what if…” or if we actually come up you know embracing the idea of that curiosity that got you into this field, you know what I mean like the thing that is so frequently our cultures are opposite of that, right? It becomes a race to the finish and in that race to the finish, lots of pieces fall off that we are not even aware of, you know? That is what I am highlighting here when I talk about it. [0:26:56.5] NL: And so, it seems maybe the best solution to the dichotomy between security and agility is really just open conversation, in a way. People actually reaching across the aisle to talk to each other. So, if you are embracing this culture as you are saying Duffie the security team should be having constant communication with the application team instead of just like the team doing something wrong and the security team coming down and smacking their hand. And being like, “Oh you can’t do it this way because of our draconian rules” right? These people are working together and almost playing together a little bit inside of their own environment to create also a better environment. And I am sorry.I didn’t mean to cut you off there, Bryan. [0:27:34.9] BM: Oh man, I thought it was fleeting like all my thoughts. But more about what you are saying is, is that you know it is not just more conversations because we can still have conversations and I am talking about sider and subnets and attack vectors and buffer overflows and things like that. But my developer isn’t talking, “Well, I just need to be able to serve this data so accounting can do this.” And that’s what happens a lot in security conversations. You have two groups of individuals who have wholly different goals and part of that conversation needs to be aligning or jargon and then aligning on those goals but what happens with pretty much everything in the development world, we always bring our networking, our security and our operations people in right at the end, right when we are ready to ship, “Hey make this thing work.” And really it is where a lot of our problems come out. Now security either could or wanted to be involved at the beginning of a software project what we actually are talking about what we are trying to do. We are trying to open up this service to talk to this, share this kind of data. Security can be in there early saying, “Oh no you know, we are using this resource in our cloud provider. It doesn’t really matter what cloud provider and we need to protect this. This data is sitting here at rest.” If we get those conversations earlier, it would be easier to engineer solutions that to be hopefully reused so we don’t have to have that conversation in the future. [0:29:02.5] CC: But then it goes back to the issue of agility, right? Like Duffie was saying, wow you can develop, I guess a development cluster which has much less restrictive restrictions and they move to a production environment where the proper restrictions are then – then you find out or maybe station environment let’s say. And then you find out, “Oh whoops. There are a bunch of restrictions I didn’t deal with but I didn’t move a lot faster because I didn’t have them but now, I have to deal with them.” [0:29:29.5] DC: Yeah, do you think it is important to have a promotion model in which you are able to move toward a more secure deployment right? Because I guess a parallel to this is like I have heard it said that you should develop your monolith first and then when you actually have the working prototype of what you’re trying to create then consider carefully whether it is time to break this thing up into a set of distinct services, right? And consider carefully also what the value of that might be? And I think that the reason that that’s said is because it is easier. It is going to be a lower cognitive load with everything all right there in the same codebase. You understand how all of these pieces interconnect and you can quickly develop or prototype what you are working on. Whereas if you are trying to develop these things into individual micro services first, it is harder to figure out where the line is. Like where to divide all of the business logic. I think this is also important when you are thinking about the security aspects of this right? Being able to do a thing when which you are not constrained, define all of these services and your application in the model for how they communicate without constraint is important. And once you have that when you actually understand what normal looks like from that set of applications then enforce them, right? If you are able to declare that intent you are going to say like these are the ports on the list on for these things, these are the things that they are going to access, this is the way that they are going to go about accessing them. You know if you can declare that intent then that is actually that is a reasonable body of knowledge for which the security people can come along and say, “Okay well, you have told us. You informed us. You have worked with us to tell us like what your intent is. We are going to enforce that intent and see what falls out and we can iterate there.” [0:31:01.9] CC: Yeah everything you said makes sense to me. Starting with build the monolith first. I mean when you start out why which ones will have abstract things that you don’t really – I mean you might think you know but you’re only really knowing practice what you are going to need to abstract. So, don’t abstract things too early. I am a big fan of that idea. So yeah, start with the monolith and then you figure out how to break it down based on what you need. With security I would imagine the same idea resonates with me. Don’t secure things that you don’t need you don’t know just yet that needs securing except the deal breaker things. Like there is some things we know like we don’t want production that are being accessed some types of production that are some things we know we need to secure so from the beginning. [0:31:51.9] BM: Right. But I will still iterate that it is always denied by default, just remember that. It is security is actually the opposite way. We want to make sure that we have the least amount and even if it is harder for us you always want to start with un-allowed TCP communication on port 443 or UDP as well. That is what I would allow rather than saying shut everything else off. But this, I would rather have the way that we only allow that and that also goes in with our declarative nature in cloud native things we like anyways. We just say what we want and everything else doesn’t exists. [0:32:27.6] DC: I do want to clarify though because I think what you and I, we are the representative of the dichotomy right at this moment, right? I feel like what you are saying is the constraint should be the normal, being able to drop all traffic, do not allow anything is normal and then you have to declare intent to open anything up and what I am saying is frequently developers don’t know what normal looks like yet. They need to be able to explore what normal looks like by developing these patterns and then enforce them, right, which is turning the model on its head. And this is actually I think the kernel that I am trying to get to in this conversation is that there has to be a place where you can go play and learn what normal is and then you can move into a world in which you can actually enforce what that normal looks like with reasonable constraint. But until you know what that is, until you have that opportunity to learn it, all we are doing here is restricting your ability to learn. We are adding friction to the process. [0:33:25.1] BM: Right, well I think what I am trying to say here layer on top of this is that yes, I agree but then I understand what a breach can do and what bad security can do. So I will say, “Yeah, go learn. Go play all you want but not on software that will ever make it to production. Go learn these practices but you are going to have to do it outside of” – you are going to have a sandbox and that sandbox is going to be unconnected from the world I mean from our obelisk and you are going to have to learn but you are not going to practice here. This is not where you learn how to do this. [0:33:56.8] NL: Exactly right, yeah. You don’t learn to ride a motorcycle on the street you know? You’d learn to ride a motorcycle on the dirt and then you could take those skills later you know? But yeah I think we are in agreement like production is a place where we do have to enforce all of those things and having some promotion level in which you can come from a place where you learned it to a place where you are beginning to enforce it to a place where it is enforced I think is also important. And I frequently describe this as like development, staging and production, right? Staging is where you are going to hit the edges from because this is where you’re actually defining that constraint and it has to be right before it can be promoted to production, right? And I feel like the middle ground is also important. [0:34:33.6] BM: And remember that production is any environment production can reach. Any environment that can reach production is production and that is including that we do data backup dumps and we clean them up from production and we use it as data in our staging environment. If production can directly reach staging or vice versa, it is all production. That is your attack vector. That is also what is going to get in and steal your production data. [0:34:59.1] NL: That is absolutely right. Google actually makes an interesting not of caveat to that but like side point to that where like if I understand the way that Google runs, they run everything in production, right? Like dev, staging and production are all the same environment. I am more positing this is a question because I don’t know if anybody of us have the answer but I wonder how they secure their infrastructure, their environment well enough to allow people to play to learn these things? And also, to deploy production level code all in the same area? That seems really interesting to be and then if I understood that I probably would be making a lot more money. [0:35:32.6] BM: Well it is simple really. There were huge people process at Google that access gatekeeper for a lot of these stuff. So, I have never worked in Google. I have no intrinsic knowledge of Google or have talked to anyone who has given me this insight, this is all speculation disclaimer over. But you can actually run a big cluster that if you can actually prove that you have network and memory and CPU isolation between containers, which they can in certain cases and certain things that can do this. What you can do is you can use your people process and your approvals to make sure that software gets to where it needs to be. So, you can still play on the same clusters but we have great handles on network that you can’t talk to these networks or you can’t use this much network data. We have great things on CPU that this CPU would be a PCI data. We will not allow it unless it’s tied to CPU or it is PCI. Once you have that in place, you do have a lot more flexibility. But to do that, you will have to have some pretty complex approval structures and then software to back that up. So, the burden on it is not on the normal developer and that is actually what Google has done. They have so many tools and they have so many processes where if you use this tool it actually does the process for you. You don’t have to think about it. And that is what we want our developers to be. We want them to be able to use either our networking libraries or whenever they are building their containers or their Kubernetes manifest, use our tools and we will make sure based on either inspection or just explicit settings that we will build something that is as secure as we can given the inputs. And what I am saying is hard and it is capital H hard and I am actually just pitting where we want to be and where a lot of us are not. You know most people are not there. [0:37:21.9] NL: Yeah, it would be nice if we had like we said earlier like more tooling around security and the processes and all of these things. One thing I think that people seem to balk on or at least I feel is developing it for their own use case, right? It seems like people want an overarching tool to solve all the use cases in the world. And I think with the rise of cloud native applications and things like container orchestration, I would like to see people more developing for themselves around their own processes, around Kubernetes and things like that. I want to see more perspective into how people are solving their security problems, instead of just like relying on let’s say like HashiCorp or like Aqua Sec to provide all the answers like I want to see more answers of what people are doing. [0:38:06.5] BM: Oh, it is because tools like Vault are hard to write and hard to maintain and hard to keep correct because you think about other large competitors to vault and they are out there like tools like CyberArk. I have a secret and I want to make sure only certain will keep it. That is a very difficult tool but the HashiCorp advantage here is that they have made tools to speak to people who write software or people who understand ops not just as a checkbox. It is not hard to get. If you are using vault it is not hard to get a secret out if you have the right credentials. Other tools is super hard to get the secret out if you even have the right credential because they have a weird API or they just make it very hard for you or they expect you to go click on some gooey somewhere. And that is what we need to do. We need to have better programming interfaces and better operator interfaces, which extends to better security people are basis for you to use these tools. You know I don’t know how well this works in practice. But the Jeff Bezos, how teams at AWS or Amazon or forums, you know teams communicate on API and I am not saying that you shouldn’t talk, but we should definitely make sure that our API’s between teams and team who owns security stuff and teams who are writing developer stuff that we can talk on the same level of fidelity that we can having an in person conversation, we should be able to do that through our software as well. Whether that be for asking for ports or asking for our resources or just talking about the problem that we have that is my thought-leadering answer to this. This is “Bryan wants to be a VP of something one day” and that is the answer I am giving. I’m going to be the CIO that is my CIO answer. [0:39:43.8] DC: I like it. So cool. [0:39:45.5] BM: Is there anything else on this subject that we wanted to hit? [0:39:48.5] NL: No, I think we have actually touched on pretty much everything. We got a lot out of this and I am always impressed with the direction that we go and I did not expect us to go down this route and I was very pleased with the discussion we have had so far. [0:39:59.6] DC: Me too. I think if we are going to explore anything else that we talked about like you know, get it more into that state where we are talking about like that we need more feedback loops. We need people developers to talk to security people. We need security people talk to developers. We need to have some way of actually pushing that feedback loop much like some of the other cultural changes that we have seen in our industry are trying to allow for better feedback loops and other spaces. And you’ve brought up dev spec ops which is another move to try and open up that feedback loop but the problem I think is still going to be that even if we improved that feedback loop, we are at an age where – especially if you ended up in some of the larger organizations, there are too many applications to solve this problem for and I don’t know yet how to address this problem in that context, right? If you are in a state where you are a 20-person, 30-person security team and your responsibility is to secure a platform that is running a number of Kubernetes clusters, a number of Vsphere clusters, a number of cloud provider implementations whether that would be AWS or GC, I mean that is a set of problems that is very difficult. It is like I am not sure that improving the feedback loop really solves it. I know that I helps but I definitely you know, I have empathy for those folks for sure. [0:41:13.0] CC: Security is not my forte at all because whenever I am developing, I have a narrow need. You know I have to access a cluster.I have to access a machine or I have to be able to access the database. And it is usually a no brainer but I get a lot of the issues that were brought up. But as a builder of software, I have empathy for people who use software, consume software, mine and others and how can’t they have any visibility as far as security goes? For example, in the world of cloud native let’s say you are using Kubernetes, I sort of start thinking, “Well, shouldn’t there be a scanner that just lets me declare?” I think I am starting an episode right now –should there be a scanner that lets me declare for example this node can only access this set of nodes like a graph. But you just declare and then you run it periodically and you make sure of course this goes down to part of an app can only access part of the database. It can get very granular but maybe at a very high level I mean how hard can this be? For example, this pod can only access that pods but this pod cannot access this name space and just keep checking what if the name spaces changes, the permission changes. Or for example would allow only these answers can do a backup because they are the same users who will have access to the restore so they have access to all the data, you know what I mean? Just keep checking that is in place and it only changes when you want to. [0:42:48.9] BM: So, I mean I know we are at the end of this call and I want to start a whole new conversation but this is actually is why there are applications out there like Istio and Linkerd. This is why people want service meshes because they can turn off all network access and then just use the service mesh to do the communication and then they can use, they can make sure that it is encrypted on both sides and that is a honey cave on all both sides. That is why this is operated. [0:43:15.1] CC: We’ll definitely going to have an episode or multiple on service mesh but we are on the top of the hour. Nick, do your thing. [0:43:23.8] NL: All right, well, thank you so much for joining us on another interesting discussion at The Kubelets Podcast. I am Nicholas Lane, Duffie any final thoughts? [0:43:32.9] DC: There is a whole lot to discuss, I really enjoyed our conversations today. Thank you everybody. [0:43:36.5] NL: And Bryan? [0:43:37.4] BM: Oh it was good being here. Now it is lunch time. [0:43:41.1] NL: And Carlisia. [0:43:42.9] CC: I love learning from you all, thank you. Glad to be here. [0:43:46.2] NL: Totally agree. Thank you again for joining us and we’ll see you next time. Bye. [0:43:51.0] CC: Bye. [0:43:52.1] DC: Bye. [0:43:52.6] BM: Bye. [END OF EPISODE] [0:43:54.7] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Stateful and Stateless Workloads (Ep 9)

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 23, 2019 43:34

This week on The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast we have Josh, Carlisia, Duffie, and Nick on the show, and are also happy to be joined by a newcomer, Brian Liles, who is a senior staff engineer at VMWare! The purpose of today’s show is coming to a deeper understanding of the meaning of ‘stateful’ versus ‘stateless’ apps, and how they relate to the cloud native environment. We cover some definitions of ‘state’ initially and then move to consider how ideas of data persistence and co-ordination across apps complicate or elucidate understandings of ‘stateful’ and ‘stateless’. We then think about the challenging practice of running databases within Kubernetes clusters, which effectively results in an ephemeral system becoming stateful. You’ll then hear some clarifications of the meaning of operators and controllers, the role they play in mediating and regulating states, and also how important they are in a rapidly evolving but skills-scarce environment. Another important theme in this conversation is the CAP theorem or the impossibility of consistency, availability and partition tolerance all at once, but the way different databases allow for different combinations of two out of the three. We then move on to chat about the fundamental connection between workloads and state and then end off with a quick consideration about how ideas of stateful and stateless play out in the context of networks. Today’s show is a real deep dive offering perspectives from some the most knowledgeable in the cloud native space so make sure to tune in! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Bryan Liles Josh Rosso Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • What ‘stateful’ means in comparison to ‘stateless’.• Understanding ‘state’ as a term referring to data which must persist.• Examples of stateful apps such as databases or apps that revolve around databases.• The idea that ‘persistence’ is debatable, which then problematizes the definition of ‘state’. • Considerations of the push for cloud native to run stateless apps.• How inter-app coordination relates to definitions of stateful and stateless applications.• Considering stateful data as data outside of a stateless cloud native environment.• Why it is challenging to run databases in Kubernetes clusters.• The role of operators in running stateful databases in clusters.• Understanding CRDs and controllers, and how they relate to operators.• Controllers mediate between actual and desired states.• Operators are codified system administrators.• The importance of operators as app number grows in a skill-scarce environment.• Mechanisms around stateful apps are important because they ensure data integrity.• The CAP theorem: the impossibility of consistency, availability, and tolerance.• Why different databases allow for different iterations of the CAP theorem.• When partition tolerance can and can’t get sacrificed.• Recommendations on when to run stateful or stateless apps through Kubernetes.• The importance of considering models when thinking about how to run a stateful app.• Varying definitions of workloads.• Pods can run multiple workloads• Workloads create states, so you can’t have one without the other.• The term ‘workloads’ can refer to multiple processes running at once.• Why the ephemerality of Kubernetes systems makes it hard to run stateful applications. • Ideas of stateful and stateless concerning networks.• The shift from server to browser in hosting stateful sessions. Quotes: “When I started envisioning this world of stateless apps, to me it was like, ‘Why do we even call them apps? Why don’t we just call them a process?’” — @carlisia [0:02:60] “‘State’ really is just that data which must persist.” — @joshrosso [0:04:26] “From the best that I can surmise, the operator pattern is the combination of a CRD plus a controller that will operate on events from the Kubernetes API based on that CRD’s configuration.” — @bryanl [0:17:00] “Once again, don’t let developers name them anything.” — @bryanl [0:17:35] “Data integrity is so important” — @apinick [0:22:31] “You have to really be careful about the different models that you’re evaluating when trying to think about how to manage a stateful application like a database.” — @mauilion [0:31:34] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: KubeCon+CloudNativeCon — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america-2019/Google Spanner — https://cloud.google.com/spanner/CockroachDB — https://www.cockroachlabs.com/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/enMetacontroller — https://metacontroller.app/Brandon Philips — https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/authors/brandon-phillipsMySQL — https://www.mysql.com/ Transcript: EPISODE 009 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] JR: All right! Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode 6 of The Cubelets Podcast. Today we are going to be discussing the concept of stateful and stateless and what that means in this crazy cloud native landscape that we all work. I am Josh Rosso. Joined with me today is Carlisia. [00:00:59] CC: Hi, everybody. [00:01:01] JR: We also have Duffie. [00:01:03] D: Hey, everybody. [00:01:04] JR: Nicholas. [00:01:05] NL: Yo! [00:01:07] JR: And a newcomer to the podcast, we also have Brian. Brian, you want to give us a little intro about yourself? [00:01:12] BL: Hi! I’m Brian. I work at VMWare. I do lots of community stuff, including sharing the KubeCon+CloudNativeCon. [00:01:22] JR: Awesome! Cool. All right. We’ve got a pretty good cast this week. So let’s dive right into it. I think one of the first things that we’ve been talking a bit about is the concept of what makes an application stateful? And of course in reverse, what makes an application stateless? Maybe we could try to start by discerning those two. Maybe starting with stateless if that makes? Does someone want to take that on? [00:01:45] CC: Well, I’m going to jump right in. I have always been a developer, as supposed to some of you or all of you have who have system admin backgrounds. The first time that I heard the stateless app, I was like, “What?” That wasn’t recent, okay? It was a long time ago, but that was a knot in my head. Why would you have a stateless app? If you have an app, you’re going to need state. I couldn’t imagine what that was. But of course it makes a lot of sense now. That was also when we were more in the monolithic world. [00:02:18] BM: Actually that’s a good point. Before you go into that, it’s a great point. Whenever we start with apps or we start developing apps, we think of an application. An application does everything. It takes input and it does stuff and it gives output. But now in this new world where we have lots of apps, big apps, small apps, we start finding that there’s apps that only talk and coordinate with other apps. They don’t do anything else. They don’t save any data. They don’t do anything. That’s what – where we get into this thing called stateless apps. Apps don’t have any type of data that they store locally. [00:02:53] CC: Yeah. It’s more like when I envision in my head. You said it brilliantly, Brian. It’s almost like a process. When I started envisioning this world of stateless apps, to me it was like, “Why do we even call them apps? Why don’t we just call them a process?” They’re just shifting back data and forth but they’re not – To me, at the beginning, apps were always stateless. They went together. [00:03:17] D: I think, frequently, people think of applications that have only locally relevant stuff that is actually not going to persist to disc, but maybe held in memory or maybe only relevant to the type of connection that’s coming through that application also as stateless, which is interesting, because there’s still some state there, but the premise is that you could lose that state and not lose the functionality of that code. [00:03:42] NL: Something that we might want to dive into really quickly when talking about stateless and stateful apps. What do we mean by the word state? When I first learned about these things, that was what always screwed me up. I’m like, “What do you mean state? Like Washington? Yeah. We got it over here.” [00:03:57] JR: Oh! State. That’s that word. State is one of those words that we use to sound smarter than we actually are 95% of the time, and that’s a number I just made up. When people are talking about state, they mean databases. Yeah. But there are other types of state as well. If you maintain local cache that needs to be persistent, if you have local files that you’re dealing with, like you’re opening files. That’s still state. State really is just that it’s data that must persist. [00:04:32] D: I agree with that definition. I think that state, whether persisted to memory or persisted to disc or persisted to some external system, that’s still what we refer to as state. [00:04:41] JR: All right. Makes sense and sounds about like what I got from it as well. [00:04:45] CC: All right. So now we have this world where we talk about stateless apps and stateful apps. Are there even stateful apps? Do we call a database an app? If we have a distributed system where we have one stateless app over here, another stateless app over there and then we have the database that’s connected to the two of them, are we calling the database a stateful app or is that whole thing – How do we call this? [00:05:15] NL: Yeah. The database is very much a state as an app with state. I’m very much – [00:05:19] D: That’s a close definition. Yeah. [00:05:21] NL: Yeah. Literally, it’s the epitome of a stateful app. But then you also have these apps that talk to databases as well and they might have local data, like data that – they start a transaction and then complete it or they have a long distributed type transaction. Any apps that revolve around a database, if they store local data, whether it’s within a transaction or something else, they’re still stateful apps. [00:05:46] D: Yup. I think you can modify and input data or modify state that has to be persisted in some way I think is a stateful app, even though I do think it’s confusing because of what – As I said before, I think that there are a bunch of applications that we think of, like not everybody considers Spark jobs to be stateful. Spark jobs, for example, are something that would bring data in, mutate that data in some way, produce some output and go away. The definition there is that Spark would generally push the resulting data into some other external system. It’s interesting, because in that model, Spark is not considered to be a stateful app because the Spark job could fail, go away, get recreated, pick up the pieces where it left off or just redo that work until all of the work is done. In many cases, people consider that to be a stateless application. That’s I think is like the crux – In my opinion, the crux of the confusion around what a stateful and stateless application is, is that people frequently – I think it’s more about where you store – what you mean by persistence and how that actually realizes in your application. If you’re pushing your state to an external database, is your application still stateful? [00:06:58] NL: I think it’s a good question, or if you are gathering data from an external source and mutating it in some way, but you don’t need data to be present when you start up, is that a stateful app or a stateless app? Even though you are taking in data, modifying it and checking it, sending out to some other mechanism or serving it in your own way, does that become like a stateless app? If that app gets killed and it comes back and it’s able to recover, is it stateful or stateless? That’s a bit of a gray area, I think. [00:07:26] JR: Yeah. I feel like a lot of the customers I work with, if the application can get killed even if it has some type of local state, they still refer to it as stateless usually, to me at least, when we talk about it because they think, “I can kind of restart this application and I’m not too worried about losing whatever it may have had.” Let’s say cached for simplicity, right? I think that kind of leads us into an interesting question. We’ve talked a lot on this podcast about cloud native infrastructure and cloud native applications and it seems like since the inception of cloud native, there’s always been this push that a stateless app is the best candidate to run or the easiest candidate to run. I’m just curious if we could dive into that for a moment. Why in the cloud native infrastructure area has there always been this push for running stateless applications? Why is it simpler? Those kinds of things. [00:08:15] BL: Before we dive into that, we have to realize – And this is just a problem of our whole ecosystem, this whole cloud native. We’re very hand-wavy in our descriptions for things. There’re a lot of ambiguous descriptions, and state is one of those. Just keep that in mind, that when we’re talking today, we’re really just talking about these things that store data and when that’s the state. Just keep that in mind as you’re listening to this. But when it comes to distributed systems in general, the easiest system is a system that doesn’t need coordination with any other system. If it happens to die, that’s okay. We can just restart it. People like to start there. It’s the easiest thing to start. [00:08:58] NL: Yeah, that was basically what I was going to say. If your application needs to tie into other applications, it becomes significantly more complicated to implement it, at least for your first time and in your system. These small applications that only – They don’t care about anybody else, they just take in data or not, they just do whatever. Those are super easy to start with because they’re just like, “Here. Start this up. Who cares? Whatever happens, it happens.” [00:09:21] CC: That could be a good boundary to define – I don’t want to jump back too far, but to define where is the stateless app to me is part of a system and just say it depends for it to come back up. Does it depend on something else that has state? [00:09:39] BL: I’ll give you an example. I can give you a good example of a stateless app that we use every day, every single one of us, none of us on this call, but when you search Google. You go to google.com and you go to the bar and you type in a search, what’s happening is there is a service at the beginning that collects that search and it federates the search over many different probably clusters of computers so they can actually do the search currently. That app that actually coordinates all that work is a stateless app most likely. All it does is just splits it up and allows more CPUs to do the work. Probably, that goes away. Probably not a problem. You probably have 10 more of them. That’s what I consider stateless. It doesn’t really own any of the data. It’s the coordinator. [00:10:25] CC: Yeah. If it goes down, it comes back up. It doesn’t need to reset itself to the state where it was before. It can truly be considered a stateless because it can just, “Okay. I reset. I’m starting from the beginning from this clear state.” [00:10:43] BL: Yes. That’s a good summary of that. [00:10:45] CC: Because another way to think about stateless – What makes an app stateful app, does it have to be combined or like deployed and shipped together with the part that maintains the state? That’s a more clear cut definition. Then that app is definitely a stateful app. [00:11:05] D: What we frequently talk about in like the cloud native space is like you know that you have a stateless app if you can just create 20 of them and not have to worry about the coordination of them. They are all workers. They are all going to take input. You could spread the load across those 20 in an identical way and not worry about which one you landed on. That’s stateless application. A stateful application is a very different thing. You have to have some coordination. You have to say how many databases can you have on a backend? Because you’re persisting data there, you have to be really careful about that you only write to the master database or to the writing database and you could read of any other memories of that database cluster, that sort of stuff. [00:11:44] CC: It might seem that we are going so deep into this differentiating between stateful and stateless, but this is so important because clusters are usually designed to be ephemeral. Ephemeral means obviously they die down, they are brought back up, the nodes, and you should worry as least as possible with the state of things. Then going back to what Joshua is saying, when we are in this cloud native world, usually we are talking about stateless apps, stateless workloads and then we’re going to just talk about what workload means. But then if that’s the case, where are the stateful apps? It’s like we have this vision that the stateful apps live outside the cloud native world? How does it work? But it’s supposed to work. [00:12:36] BL: Yup. This is the question that keeps a lot of people employed. Making sure my state is available when I need it. You know what? I’m not going to even use that word state. Making sure my data is available wherever I need it and when I need it. I don’t want to go too deep in right now, but this is actually a huge problem in the Kubernetes community in general, and we see it because there’s been lots of advice given, “Don’t run things like databases in your clusters.” This is why we see people taking the ideas of Google Spanner and like CockroachDB and actually going through a lot of work to make sure that you can run databases in Kubernetes clusters. The interesting piece about this is that we’re actually to the point where we can run these types of workloads in our clusters, but with a caveat, big star at the end, it’s very difficult and you have to know what you’re doing. [00:13:34] JR: Yeah. I want to dovetail on that Brian, because it’s something that we see all the time. I feel like when we first started setting up, let’s call them clusters, but in our case it was Kubernetes, right? We always saw that data level always being delegated to like if you’re in Amazon, some service that they hosted and so on. But now I think more and more of the customers that at least I’m seeing. I’m sure Nicholas and Duffie too, they’re interested in doing exactly what you just described. Cockroach is an example I literally just worked with recently, and it’s just interesting how much more thoughtful they have to be about their cluster operations. Going back to what you said Carlisia, it’s not as easy as just like trashing a cluster and instantiating a new one anymore, like they’re used to. They need to be more thoughtful about keeping that data integrity intact through things like upgrades and disaster recover. [00:14:18] D: Another interesting point kind to your point, Brian, is that like, frequently, people are starting to have conversations and concerns around data gravity, which means that I have a whole bunch of data that I need to work with, like to a Spark job, which I mentioned earlier. I need to basically put my compute where that data is. The way that I store that data inside the cluster and use Kubernetes to manage it or whether I just have to make sure that I have some way of bringing up compute workloads close to that data. It’s actually kind of introducing a whole new layer to this whole thing. [00:14:48] BL: Yeah! Whole new layer of work and a whole new layer of complexity, because that’s actually – The crux of all this is like where we slide the complexity too, but this is interesting, and I don’t want to go too far to this one definitely. This is why we’re seeing more people creating operators around managing data. I’ve seen operators who are bringing databases up inside of Kubernetes. I’ve seen operators that actually can bring up resources outside of Kubernetes using the Kubernetes API. The interesting thing about this is that I looked at both solutions and I said, “I still don’t know what the answer is,” and that’s great. That means that we have a lot to learn about the problem, and at least we have some paths for it. [00:15:29] NL: Actually, that kind of reminds me of the first time I ever heard the word stateful or stateless – I’m an infrastructure guy. Was around the discussion of operators, which there’s only a couple of years ago when operators were first introduced at CoreOS and some people were like, “Oh! Well, this is how you now operate a stateful mechanism inside of Kubernetes. This is the way forward that we want to propose.” I was just like, “Cool! What is that? What’s state? What do you mean stateful and stateless?” I had no idea. Josh, you were there. You’re like, “Your frontend doesn’t care about state and your backend does.” I’m like, “Does it? I don’t know. I’m not a developer.” [00:16:10] JR: Let’s talk about exactly that, because I think these patterns we’re starting to see are coming out of the needs that we’re all talking about, right? We’ve seen at least in the Kubernetes community a lot of push for these different constructs, like something called a stateful [inaudible 00:16:21], which isn’t that important right now, but then also like an operator. Maybe we can start by defining what is an operator? What is that pattern and why does it relate to stateful apps? [00:16:31] CC: I think that would be great. I am not clear what an operator is. I know there’s going to be a controller involved. I know it’s not a CRD. I am not clear on that at all, because I only work with CRDs and we don’t define – like the project I worked on with Velero, we don’t categorize it as an operator. I guess an operator uses specific framework that exists out there. Is it a Kubernetes library? I have no idea. [00:16:56] BL: We did it to ourselves again. We’re all doing these to ourselves. From the best that I can surmise, the operator pattern is the combination of a CRD plus a controller that will operate on events from the Kubernetes API based on that CRD’s configuration. That’s what an operator is. [00:17:17] NL: That’s exactly right. [00:17:18] BL: To conflate this, Red Hat created the operator SDK, and then you have [inaudible 00:17:23] and you have a Metacontroller, which can help you build operators. Then we actually sometimes conflate and call CRDs operators, and that’s pretty confusing for everyone. Once again, don’t let developers name anything. [00:17:41] CC: Wait. So let’s back up a little. Okay. There is an actual library that’s called an operator. [00:17:46] BL: Yes. There’s an operator SDK. [00:17:47] CC: Referred to as an operator. I heard that. Okay. Great. But let me back up a little because – [00:17:49] D: The word operator can [00:17:50] CC: Because if you are developing an app for Kubernetes, if you’re extending Kubernetes, you are – Okay, you might not use CRDs, but if you are using CRDs, you need a controller, right? Because how will you do actions? Then every app that has a CRD – because the alternative to having CRDs is just using the API directly without creating CRDs to reflect to resources. If you’re creating CRDs to reflect to resources, you need controllers. All of those apps, they have CRDs, are operators. [00:18:24] D: Yip [inaudible 00:18:25] is an operator. [00:18:26] CC: [inaudible 00:18:26] not an operator. How can you extend Kubernetes and not be qualified [inaudible 00:18:31] operator? [00:18:32] BL: Well, there’s a way. There is a way. You can actually just create a CRD and use a CRD for data storage, you know, store states, and you can actually query the Kubernetes API for that information. You don’t need a controller, but we couple them with controllers a lot to perform action based on that state we’ve saved to etcd. [00:18:50] CC: Duffie. [00:18:51] D: I want to back up just for a moment and talk about the controller pattern and what it is and then go from there to operators, because I think it makes it easier to get it in your head. A control pattern is effectively a way to understand desired state and real state and provide some logic or business code that will allow you to converge those two states, your actual state and your desired state. This is a pattern that we see used in almost everything within a distributed system. It’s like within Kubernetes, within most of the kind of more interesting systems that are out there. This control pattern describes a pretty good way of actually managing application flow across distributed systems. Now, operators, when they were initially introduced, we were talking about that this is a slightly different thing. Operators, when we introduced the idea, came more from like the operational burden of these stateful applications, things like databases and those sorts of stuff. With the database, etcd for example, you have a whole bunch of operational and runtime concerns around managing the lifecycle of that system. How do I add a new member to the cluster? What do I do when a member dies? How do I take action? Right now, that’s somebody like myself waking up at 2 in the morning and working through a run book to basically make sure that that service remains operational through the night. But the idea of an operator was to take that control pattern that we described earlier and make it wake up at 2 in the morning to fix this stuff. We’re going to actually codify the operational knowledge of managing the burden of these stateful applications so that we don’t have to wake up at 2 in the morning and do it anymore. Nobody wants to do that. [00:20:32] BL: Yeah. That makes sense. Remember back at KubCon years ago, I know it was one in Seattle where Brandon Philips was on stage talking about operators. He basically was saying if we think about SysOp, system operators, it was a way to basically automate or capture the knowledge of our system administrators in scripts or in a process or in code a la operators. [00:20:57] D: The last part that I’ll add to this thing, which I think is actually what really describes the value of this idea to me is that there are only so many people on the planet that do what the people in this blog post do. Maybe you’re one of them that listen to this podcast. People who are operating software or operating infrastructure at scale, there just aren’t that many of us on the planet. So as we add more applications, as more people adopt the cloud native regime or start coming to a place where they can crank out more applications more quickly, we’re going to have to get to a place where we are able to automate the burden of managing those applications, because there just aren’t enough of us to be able to support the load that is coming. There just aren’t enough people on the planet that do this to be able to support that. That’s the thing that excites me most about the operator pattern, is that it gives us a place to start. It gives us a place to actually start thinking about managing that burden over time, because if we don’t start changing the way we think about managing that burden, we’re going to run out of people. We’re not going to be able to do it. [00:22:05] NL: Yeah. It’s interesting. With stateful apps, we keep kind of bringing them – coming back to stateful apps, because stateful apps are hard and stateless apps are easy, and we’ve created all these mechanisms around operating things with state because of how just complicated it is to make sure that your data is ready, accessible and has integrity. That’s the big one that I keep not thinking about as a SysOps person coming into the Dev world. Data integrity is so important and making sure that your data is exactly what it needs to be and was the last time you checked it, is super important. It’s only something I’m really starting to grasp. That’s why I was like these things, like operators and all these mechanisms that we keep creating and recreating and recreating keep coming about, because making sure that your stateful apps have the right data at the right time is so important. [00:22:55] BL: Since you brought this up, and we just talked about why a state is so hard, I want to introduce the new term to this conversation, the whole CAP theorem, where data would typically be – in a distributed system at least, your data will be consistent or your data can be available, or if your distributed systems falls in multiple parts, you can have partition tolerance. This is one of those computer science things where you can actually pick two. You can have it be available and have partition tolerance, but your data won’t be consistent, or you can have consistency and availability, but you won’t have partition tolerance. If your cluster splits into two for some reason, the data will be bad. This is why it’s hard, this is why people have written basically lots of PhD dissertations on this subject, and this is why we are talking about this here today, is because managing state, and particularly managing distributed, is actually a very, very hard problem. But there’s software out there that will help us, and Kubernetes is definitely part of that and stateful sets are definitely part of that as well. [00:24:05] JR: I was just going to say on those three points, consistently, availability and partition tolerance. Obviously, we’d want all three if we could have them. Is there one that we most commonly tradeoff and give up or does it go case-by-case? [00:24:17] BL: Actually, it’s been proven. You can’t have all three. It’s literally impossible. It depends. If you have a MySQL server and you’re using MySQL to actually serve data out of this, you’re going to most likely get consistency and availability. If you have it replicated, you might not have partition tolerance. That’s something to think about, and there are different databases and this is actually one of the reasons why there are different databases. This is why people use things like relational databases and they use key value stores not because we really like the interfaces, but because they have different properties around the data. [00:24:55] NL: That’s an interesting point and something that I had recently just been thinking about, like why are there so many different types of databases. I just didn’t know. It was like in only recently heard of CAP theorem as well just before you mentioned it. I’m like, “Wow! That’s so fascinating.” The whole thing where you only pick two. You can’t get three. Josh, to kind of go back to your question really quickly, I think that partition tolerance is the one that we throw away the most. We’re willing to not be able to segregate our database as much as possible because C and A are just too important, I think. At least that’s what I’m saying, like I am wearing an [inaudible 00:25:26] shirt and [inaudible 00:25:27] is not partition tolerant. It’s bad at it. [00:25:31] BL: This is why Google introduced Spanner, and Spanner in some situations can get free with tradeoffs and a lot of really, really smart stuff, but most people can’t run this scale. But we do need to think about partition tolerance, especially with data whenever – Let’s say you run a store and you have multiple instances across the world and someone buys something from inventory, what is your inventory look like at any particular point? You don’t have to answer my question, of course, but think about that. These are still very important problems if fiber gets cut across the Atlantic and now I’ve sold more things than I have. Carlisia, speaking to you as someone who’s only been a developer, have you moved your thoughts on state any further? [00:26:19] CC: Well, I feel that I’m clear on – Well, I think you need to clarify your question better for me. If you’re asking if I understand what it means, I understand what it means. But I actually was thinking to ask this question to all of you, because I don’t know the answer, if that’s the question you’re asking me. I want to put that to the group. Do you recommend people, as in like now-ish, to run stateful workloads? We need to talk about workloads mean. Run stateful apps or database in sites if they’re running a Kubernetes cluster or if they’re planning for that, do you all as experts recommend that they should already be looking into doing that or they should be running for now their stateful apps or databases outside of the cloud native ecosystem and just connecting the two? Because if that’s what your question was, I don’t know. [00:27:21] BL: Well, I’ll take this first. I think that we should be spending lots of more time than we are right now in coming up community-tested solutions around using stateful sets to their best ability. What that means is let’s say if you’re running a database inside of Kubernetes and you’re using a stateful set to manage this, what we do need to figure out is what happens when my database goes down? The pod just kills? When I bring up a new version, I need to make sure that I have the correct software to verify integrity, rebuilt things, so that when it comes back up, it comes back up correctly. That’s what I think we should be doing. [00:27:59] JR: For me, I think working with customers, at least Kubernetes-oriented folks, when they’re trying to introduce Kubernetes as their orchestration part of their overall platform, I’m usually just trying to kind of meet them where they’re at. If they’re new to Kubernetes and distributed systems as a whole, if we have stateless, let’s call them maybe simpler applications to start with, I generally have them lean into that first, because we already have so much in front of us to learn about. I think it was either Brian or Duffie, you said it introduces a whole bunch more complexity. You have to know what you’re doing. You have to know how to operate these things. If they’re new to Kubernetes, I generally will advise start with stateless still. But that being said, so many of our customers that we work with are very interested in running stateful workloads on Kubernetes. [00:28:42] CC: But just to clarify what you said, Josh, because you spoke like an expert, but I still have beginner’s ears. You said something that sounded to me like you recommend that you go stateless. It sounded to me like that. What you really say is that they take out the stateless part of what they have, which they might already have or they might have to change and put the stateless. You’re not suggesting that, “Oh! You can’t do stateful anymore. You need to just do everything stateless.” What you’re saying is take the stateless part of your system, put that in Kubernetes, because that is really well-tested and keep the stateful outside of that ecosystem. Is that right? [00:29:27] JR: I think that’s a better way to put it. Again, it’s not that Kubernetes can’t do stateful. It’s more of a concept of biting off more than you can chew. We still work with a lot of people who are very new to these distributed systems concepts, and to take on running stateful workloads, if we could just delegate that to some other layer, like outside of the cluster, that could be a better place to start, at least in my experience. Nicholas and Duff might have different – [00:29:51] NL: Josh, you basically nailed it like what I was going to say, where it’s like if the team that I’m working with is interested in taking on the complexity of maintaining their databases, their stateful sets and making sure that they have data integrity and availability, then I’m all for them using Kubernetes for a stateful set. Kubernetes can run stateful applications, but there is all this complexity that we keep talking about and maintaining data and all that. If they’re willing to take on their complexity, great, it’s there for you. If they’re not, if they’re a little bit kind of behind as – Not behind, but if they’re kind of starting out their Kubernetes journey or their distributed systems journey, I would recommend them to move that complexity to somebody else and start with something a little bit easier, like a stateless application. There are a lot of good services that provide data as a service, right? You’ve got dataview as RDS is great for creating stateful application. You can leverage it anytime and you’ve got like dedicated wires too. I would point them to there first if they don’t want to take on like complexity. [00:30:51] D: I completely agree with that. An important thing I would add, which is in response to the stateful set piece here, is that as we’ve already described, managing a stateful application like a database does come with some complexity. So you should really carefully look at just what these different models provide you. Whether that model is making use of a stateful set, which provides you like ordinality, ensuring that things start up in a particular order and some of the other capabilities around that stuff. But it won’t, for example, manage some of the complexity. A stateful set won’t, for example, try and issue a command to the new member to make sure that it’s part of an existing database cluster. It won’t manage that kind of stuff. So you have to really be careful about the different models that you’re evaluating when trying to think about how to manage a stateful application like a database. I think because it’s actually why the topic of an operator came up kind of earlier, which was that like there are a lot of primitives within Kubernetes in general that provide you a lot of capability for managing things like stateful applications, but they may not entirely suit your needs. Because of the complexity with stateful applications, you have to really kind of be really careful about what you adopt and where you jump in. [00:32:04] CC: Yeah. I know just from working with Velero, which is a tool for doing backup and recovery migration of Kubernetes clusters. I know that we backup volumes. So if you have something mounted on a volume, we can back that up. I know for a fact that people are using that to backup stateful workloads. We need to talk about workloads. But at any case, one thing to – I think one of you mentioned is that you definitely also need to look at a backup and recovery strategy, which is ever more important if you’re doing stateful workloads. [00:32:46] NL: That’s the only time it’s important. If you’re doing stateless, who cares? [00:32:49] BL: Have we defined what a workload is? [00:32:50] CC: Yeah. But let me say something. Yeah, I think we should do an episode on that maybe, maybe not. We should do an episode on GitOps type of thing for related things, because even though you – Things are stateless, but I don’t want to get into it. Your cluster will change state. You can recover in stuff from like a fresh version. But as it goes through a lifecycle, it will change state and you might want to keep that state. I don’t know. I’m not the expert in that area, but let’s talk about workloads, Brian. Okay. Let me start talking about workloads. I never heard the term workload until I came into the cloud native world, and that was about a year ago or when they started looking in this space more closely. Maybe a little bit before a year ago. It took me forever to understand what a workload was. Now I understand, especially today, we’re talking about a little bit before we started recording. Let me hear from you all what it means to you. [00:34:00] BL: This is one of those terms, and I’m sure like the last any ex-Googlers about this, they’ll probably agree. This is a Google term that we actually have zero context about why it’s a term. I’m sure we could ask somebody and they would tell us, but workloads to me personally are anything that ultimately creates a pod. Deployments create replica sets, create pods. That whole thing is a workload. That’s how I look at it. [00:34:29] CC: Before there were pods, were there workloads, or is a workload a new thing that came along with pods? [00:34:35] BL: Once again, these words don’t make any sense to us, because they’re Google terms. I think that a pod is a part of a workload, like a deployment is a part of a workload, like a replica set is part of a workload. Workload is the term that encompasses an entire set of objects. [00:34:52] D: I think of a workload as a subset of an application. When I think of an application or a set of microservices, I might think of each of the services that make up that entire application as a workload. I think of it that way because that’s generally how I would divide it up to Brian’s point into different deployment or different stateful sets or different – That sort of stuff. Thinking of them each as their own autonomous piece, and altogether they form an application. That’s my think of it. [00:35:20] CC: To connect to what Brian said, deployment, will always run in the pods, which is super confusing if you’re not looking at these things, just so people understand, because it took me forever to understand that. The connection between a workload, a deployment and a pod. Pods contain – If you have a deployment that you’re going to shift Kubernetes – I don’t know if shift is the right word. You’re going to need to run on Kubernetes. That deployment needs to run somewhere, in some artifact, and that artifact is called a pod. [00:35:56] NL: Yeah. Going back to what Duffie said really quickly. A workload to me was always a process, kind of like not just a pod necessarily, but like whatever it is that if you’re like, “I just need to get this to run,” whatever that is. To me that was always a workload, but I think I’m wrong. I think I’m oversimplifying it. I’m just like whatever your process is. [00:36:16] BL: Yeah. I would give you – The reason why I would not say that is because a pod can run multiple containers at once, which ergo is multiple processes. That’s why I say it that way. [00:36:29] NL: Oh! You changed my mind. [00:36:33] BL: The reason I bring this up, and this is probably a great idea for a future show, is about all the jargon and terminology that we use in this land that we just take as everyone knows it, but we don’t all know it, and should be a great conversation to have around that. But the reason I always bring up the whole workload thing is because when we think about workloads and then you can’t have state without workloads, really. I just wanted to make sure that we tied those two things together. [00:36:58] CC: Why can you not have state without workloads? What does that mean? [00:37:01] BL: Well, the reason you can’t have state without workloads is because something is going to have to create that state, whether that workload is running in or out a cluster. Something is going to have to create it. It just doesn’t come out of nowhere. [00:37:11] CC: That goes back to what Nick was saying, that he thinks a workload is a process. Was that was you said, Nick? [00:37:18] NL: It is, yeah, but I’m renegading on that. [00:37:23] CC: At least I could see why you said that. Sorry, Brian. I cut you off. [00:37:28] BL: What I was saying is a workload ultimately is one or more processes. It’s not just a process. It’s not a single process. It could be 10, it could be 1. [00:37:39] JS: I have one final question, and we can bail on this and edit it out if it’s not a good one to end with. I hope it’s not too big, but I think maybe one thing we overlooked is just why it’s hard to run stateful workloads in these new systems like Kubernetes. We talked about how there’s more complexity and stuff, but there might be some room to talk about – People have been spinning up an EC2 server, a server on the web and running MySQL on it forever. Why in like the Kubernetes world of like pods and things is it a little bit harder to run, say, MySQL just [inaudible 00:38:10]. Is that something worth diving into? [00:38:13] NL: Yeah, I think so. I would say that for things like, say, applications, like databases particularly, they are less resilient to outages. While Kubernetes itself is dedicated to – Or most container orchestrations, but Kubernetes specifically, are dedicated to running your pods continuously as long as they will, that it is still somewhat of a shifting landscape. You do have priority and preemption. If you don’t set those things up properly of if there’s just like a total failure of your system at large, your stateful application can just go down at any time. Then how do you reconcile the outage in data, whatever data that might have gotten lost? Those sorts of things become significantly more complicated in an environment like Kubernetes where you don’t necessarily have access to a command line to run the commands to recover as easy. You may not, but it’s the same. [00:39:01] BL: Yes. You got to understand what databases do. Disk is slow, whether you have spinning disk or you have disk on chip, like SSD. What databases do in a lot of cases is they store things in memory. So if it goes away, didn’t get stored. In other cases, what databases do is they have these huge transactional logs, maybe they write them out in files and then they process the transaction log whenever they have CPU time. If a database dies just suddenly, maybe its state is inconsistent because it had items that were to be processed in a queue that haven’t been processed. Now it doesn’t know what’s going on, which is why – [00:39:39] NL: That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. [00:39:40] BL: If you kill MySQL, like kill MySQL D with a -9, why it might not come back up. [00:39:46] JR: Yeah. Going back to Kubernetes as an example, we are living in this newer world where things can get rescheduled and moved around and killed and their IPs changed and things. It seems like this environment is, should I say, more ephemeral, and those types of considerations becoming to be more complex. [00:40:04] NL: I think that really nails it. Yeah. I didn’t know that there were transactional logs about databases. I should, I feel like, have known that but I just have no idea. [00:40:11] D: There’s one more part to the whole stateful, stateless thing that I think is important to cover, but I don’t know if we’ll be able to cover it entirely in the time that we have left, and that is from the network perspective. If you think about the types of connections coming into an application, we refer to some of those connections as stateful and stateless. I think that’s something we could tackle in our remaining time, or what’s everybody’s thought? [00:40:33] JR: Why don’t you try giving us maybe a quick summary of it, Duffie, and then we can end on that. [00:40:36] CC: Yeah. I think it’s a good idea to talk about network and then address that in the context of network. I’m just thinking an idea for an episode. But give us like a quick rundown. [00:40:45] D: Sure. A lot of the kind of older monolithic applications, the way that you would scale these things is you would have multiple of them and then you would have some intelligence in the way that you’re routing connections down to those applications that would describe the ability to ensure that when Bob accesses a website and he authenticates, he’s going to authenticate to one specific instance of this application and the intelligence up in the frontend is going to handle the routing to make sure that Bob’s connection always comes back to that same instance. This is an older pattern. It’s been around for a very long time and it’s certainly the way that we first kind of learned to scale applications before we’ve decided to break into maker services and kind of handle a lot of this routing in a more resilient way. That was kind of one of the early versions of how we do this, and that is a pretty good example of a stateful session, and that there is actually some – Perhaps Bob has authenticated and he has a cookie that allows him, that when he comes back to that particular application, a lot of the settings, his browser settings, whether he’s using the dark theme or the light theme, that sort of stuff, is persisted on the server side rather than on the client side. That’s kind of what I mean by stateful sessions. Stateless sessions mean it doesn’t really matter that the user is terminating to the same end of point, because we’ve managed to keep the state either with the client. We’re handling state on the browser side of things rather on the server side of things. So you’re not necessarily gaining anything by pushing that connection back to the same specific instance, but just to a service that is more widely available. There are lots of examples of this. I mean, Brian’s example of Google earlier. Obviously, when I come back to Google, there are some things I want it to remember. I want it to remember that I’m logged in as myself. I want it to remember that I’ve used a particular – I want it to remember my history. I want it to remember that kind of stuff so that I could go back and find things that I looked at before. There are a ton of examples of this when we think about it. [00:42:40] JR: Awesome! All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us in episode 6, Stateful and Stateless. Signing off. I’m Josh Rosso, and going across the line, thank you Nicholas Lane. [00:42:54] NL: Thank you so much. This was really informative for me. [00:42:56] JR: Carlisia Campos. [00:42:57] CCC: This was a great conversation. Bye, everybody. [00:42:59] JR: Our new comer, Brian Liles. [00:43:01] BL: Until next time. [00:43:03] JR: And Duffie Cooley. [00:43:05] DCC: Thank you so much, everybody. [00:43:06] JR: Thanks all. [00:43:07] CCC: Bye! [END OF EPISODE] [0:50:00.3] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Disaster and Recovery (Ep 8)

RecTech: the Recruiting Technology Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2019 42:07

In this episode of The Podlets Podcast, we are talking about the very important topic of recovery from a disaster! A disaster can take many forms, from errors in software and hardware to natural disasters and acts of God. That being said that are better and worse ways of preparing for and preventing the inevitable problems that arise with your data. The message here is that issues will arise but through careful precaution and the right kind of infrastructure, the damage to your business can be minimal. We discuss some of the different ways that people are backing things up to suit their individual needs, recovery time objectives and recovery point objectives, what high availability can offer your system and more! The team offers a bunch of great safety tips to keep things from falling through the cracks and we get into keeping things simple avoiding too much mutation of infrastructure and why testing your backups can make all the difference. We naturally look at this question with an added focus on Kubernetes and go through a few tools that are currently available. So for anyone wanting to ensure safe data and a safe business, this episode is for you! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: https://twitter.com/carlisiahttps://twitter.com/bryanlhttps://twitter.com/joshrossohttps://twitter.com/opowero Key Points From This Episode: • A little introduction to Olive and her background in engineering, architecture, and science. • Disaster recovery strategies and the portion of customers who are prepared.• What is a disaster? What is recovery? The fundamentals of the terms we are using.• The physicality of disasters; replication of storage for recovery.• The simplicity of recovery and keeping things manageable for safety.• What high availability offers in terms of failsafes and disaster avoidance.• Disaster recovery for Kubernetes; safety on declarative systems.• The state of the infrastructure and its interaction with good and bad code.• Mutating infrastructure and the complications in terms of recovery and recreation. • Plug-ins and tools for Kubertnetes such as Velero.• Fire drills, testing backups and validating your data before a disaster!• The future of backups and considering what disasters might look like. Quotes: “It is an exciting space, to see how different people are figuring out how to back up distributed systems in a reliable manner.” — @opowero [0:06:01] “I can assure you, careers and fortunes have been made on helping people get this right!” — @bryanl [0:07:31] “Things break all the time, it is how that affects you and how quickly you can recover.” —@opowero [0:23:57] “We do everything through the Kubernetes API, that's one reason why we can do selectivebackups and restores.” — @carlisia [0:32:41] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets — https://thepodlets.io/The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodletsVMware — https://www.vmware.com/Olive Power — https://uk.linkedin.com/in/olive-power-488870138Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/PostgreSQL — https://www.postgresql.org/AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/Google Cloud — https://cloud.google.com/Digital Ocean — https://www.digitalocean.com/SoftLayer — https://www.ibm.com/cloudOracle — https://www.oracle.com/HackIT — https://hackit.org.uk/Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/Velero — https://blog.kubernauts.io/backup-and-restore-of-kubernetes-applications-using- heptios-velero-with-restic-and-rook-ceph-as-2e8df15b1487CockroachDB — https://www.cockroachlabs.com/Cloud Spanner — https://cloud.google.com/spanner/ Transcript: EPISODE 08[INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. We are back. This is episode number 8. Today we have on the show myself, Carlisia Campos and Josh. [00:00:51] JR: Hello, everyone. [00:00:52] CC: That was Josh Rosso. And Olive Power. [00:00:55] OP: Hello. [00:00:57] CC: And also Brian Lyles. [00:00:59] BL: Hello. [00:00:59] CC: Olive, this is your first time, and I didn’t even give you a heads-up. But tell us a little bit about your background. [00:01:06] OP: Yeah, sure. I’m based in the UK. I joined VMware as part of the Heptio acquisition, which I joined Heptio way back last year in October. The acquisition happened pretty quickly for me. Before that, I was at Red Hat working on some of their cloud management tooling and a bit of OpenShift as well. Before that, I worked with HP and Fujitsu. I kind of work in enterprise management a lot, so things like desired state and automation are kind of things that have followed me around through most of my career. Coming in here to VMware, working in the cloud native applications business unit is kind of a good fit for me. I’m a mom of two and I’m based in the UK, which I have to point out, currently undergoing a heat wave. We’ve had about like 3 weeks of 25 to 30 degrees, which is warm, very warm for us. Everybody is in a great mood. [00:01:54] CC: You have a science background, right? [00:01:57] OP: Yeah, I studied chemistry in university and then I went on to do a PhD in cancer research. I was trying to figure out ways where we could predict how different people will going to respond to radiation treatments and then with a view to tailoring everybody’s treatment to make it unique for them rather than giving the same treatment to different who present you with the same disease but were response very, very different. Yeah, that was really, really interesting. [00:02:22] CC: What is your role at VMware? [00:02:23] OP: I’m a cloud native architect. I help customers predominantly focus on their Kubernetes platforms and how to build them either from scratch or help them get more production-ready depending on where they are in their Kubernetes journey. It’s been really exciting part of being part of Heptio and following through into the VMware acquisition. We’re going to speak to customers a lot at very exciting times for them. They’re kind of embarking on their Kubernetes journey a lot of them. We’re with them from the start and every step of the way. That’s really rewarding and exciting. [00:02:54] CC: Let me pick up on that thread actually, because one thing that I love about this group for me, because I don’t get to do that. You all meet customers and you know what they are doing. Get that knowledge first-hand. What would you say the percentage of the clients that you see, how disaster recovery strategy, which by the way is a topic of today’s show. [00:03:19] OP: I speak to customers a lot. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of them are like in different stages of their journey in terms of automation, in terms of infrastructure of code, in terms of where they want to go for their next platform. But there generally in the room a team that is responsible for backup and recovery, and that’s generally sort of leads into this storage team really because you’re trying to backup state predominantly. When we’re speaking to customers, we’ll have the automation people in the room. We’ll have the developers in the room and we’ll have the storage people in the room, and they are the ones that are primarily – Out of those three sort of folks I’ve mentioned, they’re the ones that are primarily concerned about backup. How to back up their data. How to restore it in a way that satisfies the SLAs or the time to get your systems back online in a timely manner. They are the force concerned with that. [00:04:10] JR: I think it’s interesting, because it’s almost scary how many of our customers don’t actually have a disaster recovery strategy of any sort. I think it’s often times just based on the maturity of the platform. A lot of the applications and such, they’re worried about downtime, but not necessarily like it’s going to devastate the business in a lot of these apps. I’m not trying to say that people don’t run mission critical apps on things like Kubernetes. It’s just a lot of people are very new and they’re just kind of ramping up. It’s a really complicated thing that we work with our customers on, and there’re so many like layers to this. I’m sure layers that we’ll get into. There are things like disaster recovery of the actual platform. If Kubernetes, as an example, goes down. Getting it back up, backing up its data store that we call etcd. There’s obviously like the applications disaster recovery. If a cluster of some sort goes own, be it Kubernetes or otherwise, shifting some CI system and redeploying that into some B cluster to bring it back up. Then to Olive’s point, what she said, it all comes back to storage. Yeah. I mean, that’s where it gets extremely complicated. Well, at least in my mind, it’s complicated for me, I should say. When you’re thinking about, “Okay, I’m running this PostgreS as a service thing on this cluster.” It’s not that simple to just move the app from cluster A to cluster B anymore. I have to consider what do I do with the data? How do I make sure I don’t lose it out? Then that’s a pretty complicated question to answer. [00:05:32] OP: I think a lot of the storage providers, vendors playing in that storage space are kind of looking at novel ways to solve that and have adapted their current thinking maybe that was maybe slightly older thinking to new ways of interacting with Kubernetes cluster to provide that ongoing replication of data around different systems outside of the Kubernetes and then allowing it to be ported back in when a Kubernetes cluster – If we’re talking about Kubernetes in this instance as a platform, porting that data back in. There’re a lot of vendors playing in that space. It’s kind of an exciting space really to see how different people are figuring out how to back up distributed systems in reliable manner, because different people want different levels of backup. Because of the microservices nature of the cloud native architectures that we predominantly deal with, your application is not just one thing anymore. Certain parts of that application need to be recovered fairly quickly, and other parts don’t need to recover that quickly. It’s all about functionality ultimately that your end customers or your end users see. If you think about visually as like a banking application, for example, where if you’re looking at things like – The customer is interacting with that and they can check their financial details and they can check the current stages of their account, then they are two different services. But the actual service to transfer money into their account is down. It’s still a pretty functional system to the end user. But in the background, all those great systems are in place to recover that transfer of money functionality, but it’s not detrimental to your business if that’s down. There’ll be different SLAs and different objectives in terms of recovery, in terms of the amount of time that it takes for you to restore. All of that has to be factored in into disaster recovery plans and it’s up to the company and we can help as much as possible for them to figure out which feats of the applications and which feats of your business need to conform to certain SLAs in terms of recovery, because different feats will have different standards and different times in and around that space. It’s a complicated thing. It definite is. [00:07:29] BL: I want to take a step back and unpack this term, disaster recovery, because I can assure you, careers and fortunes have been made on helping people get this right. Before we get super deep into this, what’s a disaster and then what’s a recovery for that? Have you thought about that at a fundamental level? [00:07:45] OP: Just for me, if we would kind of take it at face value. A physical disaster, they could be physical ones or software-based ones. Physical ones can be like earthquakes or floodings, fires, things like that that are happening either in your region or can be fairly widespread across the area that you’re in, or software, cyber attacks that are perhaps to your own internal systems, like your system has been compromised. That’s fairly local to you. There are two different design strategies there. Physical disaster, you have to have a recover plan that is outside of that physical boundary that you can recover your system from somewhere that’s not affected by that physical disaster. For the recovery in terms of software in terms of your system has been compromised, then the recovery from that is different. I’m not an expert on cyber attacks and vulnerabilities, but the recovery from there for companies trying to recover from that, they plan for it as much as possible. So they down their systems and try and get patches and fixes to them as quickly as possible and spin the system backups. [00:08:49] BL: I’m understanding what you’re saying. I’m trying to unpack it for those of us listening who don’t really understand it. I’m going to go through what you said and we’ll unpack it a little bit. Physical from my assumption is we’re running workloads. Let’s say we’re just going to say in a cloud, not on-premise. We’re running workloads in let’s say AWS, and in the United States, we can take care local diversity by running in East and West regions. Also, we can take care of local diversity by running in availability, but they don’t reach it, because AWS is guaranteed that AZ1 and AZ3 have different network connections, are not in the same building, and things like that. Would you agree? Do you see that? I mean, this is for everyone out there. I’m going to go from super high-level down to more specific. [00:09:39] OP: I personally wouldn’t argue that, except not everybody is on AWS. [00:09:43] BL: Okay. AWS, or Azure, or Google Cloud, DigitalOcean, or SoftLayer, or Oracle, or Packet. If I thought about this, probably we could do 20 more. [00:09:55] JR: IBM. [00:09:56] BL: IBM. That’s why I said SoftLayer. They all practice in the physical diversity. They all have different regions that you can deploy software. Whether it’s be data locality, but also for data protection. If you’re thinking about creating a planet for this, this would be something you could think about. Where does my rest? What could happen to that data? Building could actually just fall over on to itself. All the hard drives are gone. What do I do? [00:10:21] OP: You’re saying that replication is a form of backup? [00:10:26] BL: I’m actually saying way more than that. Before you even think about things when it comes to disaster recovery, you got to define what a disaster is. Some applications can actually run out of multiple physical locations. Let’s go back to my AWS example, because it’s everywhere and everyone understands how AWS works at a high-level. Sometimes people are running things out of US-East-1 and US-West-2, and they could run both of the applications. The reason they can do that is because the individual transactions of whatever they’re doing don’t need to talk to one another. They connect just websites out of places. To your point, when you talk about now you have the issue where maybe you’re doing inventory management, because you have a large store and you’re running it out of multiple countries. You’re in the EU and you’re somewhere on APAC as well. What do you do about that? Well, there are a couple of ways that – I could think about how we would do that. We could actually just have all the database connections go back to one single main service. Then what we could do with that main service is that we could have it replicated in their local place and then we can replicate it in a remote place too. If the local place goes up, at least you can point all the other sites back to this one. That’s the simplest way. The reason I wanted to bring this up, is because I don’t like acronyms all that much, but disaster recovery has two of my favorite ones and they’re called RPO and RTO. Really, what it comes down to is you need to think about when you have a disaster, no matter that disaster is or how you define it, you have RTO. Basically, it’s the time that you can be down before there’s a huge issue. Then you have something called DPO, which is without going into all the names, is how far you can go since your last backup before you have business problems. Just thinking about those things is how we should think about our backup disaster recovery, and it’s all based on how your business works or how your project works and how long you can be down and how much data you have. [00:12:27] CC: Which goes to what Olive was saying. Please spell out to us what RTO and RPO stand for. [00:12:35] BL: I’m going to look them up real quick, because I literally pushed those acronym meanings out. I just know what they mean. [00:12:40] OP: I think it’s recovery time objective and recovery data objective. [00:12:45] BL: Yeah. I don’t know what the P stands for, but it is for data. [00:12:49] OP: Recovery. [00:12:51] BL: It’s the recovery points. Yeah. That’s what it is. It is the recovery point objective, RPO; and recovery time objective, RTO. You could tell that I’ve spent a lot of time in enterprise, because we don’t even define words. The acronym means what it is. Do you know what the acronym stands for anymore? [00:13:09] OP: How far back in terms of data can we go that was still okay? How far back in time can we be down, basically, until we’re okay? [00:13:17] CC: It is true though, and as Josh was saying, some teams or companies or products, especially companies that are starting their journey, their cloud native journey. They don’t have a backup, because there are many complicated things to deal with, and backup is super complicated, I mean, the disaster recovery strategy. Doing that is not trivial. But shouldn’t you start with that or at least because it is so complex? It’s funny to me when people say I don’t have that kind of a strategy. Maybe just like what Bryan said why utilizing, spreading out your data through regions, that is a strategy in itself, and there’s more to it. [00:14:00] JR: Yeah. I think I oversimplified too much. Disaster recovery could theoretically be anything I suppose. Going back to what you were saying, Brian, the recovery aspect of it. Recovery for some of the customers I work with is literally to stand on a brand-new cluster, whatever that cluster is, a cluster, that is their platform. Then redeploy all the applications on top of it. That is a recovery strategy. It might not be the most elegant and it might make assumptions about the apps that run on it, but it is a recovery strategy that somewhat simple, simple to kind of conceptualize and get started with. I think a lot of the customers that I work with when they’re first getting their bearings with distributed system of sorts, they’re a lot more concerned about solving for high availability, which is what you just said, Carlisia, where we’re spreading across maybe multiple sites. There’s the notion of different parts of the world, but there’s also the idea of like what I think Amazon has coined availability zones. Making sure if there is a disaster, you’re somewhat resilient to that disaster like Brian was saying with moving connections over and so on. Then once we’ve done high-availability somewhat well, depending on the workloads that are running, we might try to get a more fancy recovery solution in place. One that’s not just rebuild everything and redeploy, because the downtime might not be acceptable. [00:15:19] BL: I’m actually going to give some advice to all the people out there who might be listening to this and thinking about disaster recovery. First of all, all that complex stuff, that book you read, forget about it. Not because you don’t need to know. It’s because you should only think about what’s in scope at any given time. When you’re starting an application, let’s say I’m actually making a huge assumption that you’re using someone else’s cloud. You’re using public cloud. Whenever you’re in your data center, there’s a different problem. Whenever you’re using public cloud, think about what you already have. All the major public clouds had a durable object storage. Many 9s of durability and then fewer 9s, but still a lot of 9s of availability too. The canonical example there is S3. When you’re designing your applications and you know that you’re going to have disaster issues, realize that S3 is almost always going to be there, unless it was 2017 and it goes down, or the other two failures that it had. Pretty much, it will be there. Think about how do I get that data into S3. I’m just saying, you can use it for storage. It’s fairly cheap for how much storage you can get. You can make it sure it’s encrypted, and using IM, you can definitely make sure that people who have the right pillages can see it. The same goes with Azure and the same goes with Google. That’s the first phase. The second phase is that now you’re going to say, “Well, what is a relational database?” Once again, use your cloud provider. All the major cloud providers have great relational databases, and actually key value stores as well. The neat thing about them is you can actually set them up sometimes to run in a whole region. You can set them up to do automated backups. At least the minimum that you have, you actually use your cloud provider for what it’s valuable for. Now, you’re not using a cloud provider and you’re doing it on-premise, I’m going to tell you, the simple answer is I hope you have a little bit of money, because you’re going to have to pay somebody either one of Kubernetes architects or you’re going to pay somebody else to do it. There’s no easy button for this kind of solution. Just for this little mini-rant, I’m going to leave everyone with the biggest piece of advice, the best piece of advice that I can ever leave you if you’re running relational databases. If you are running a relational database, whether it’d be PostgreS, MySQL, Aurora, have it replicated. But here’s the kicker, have another replica that you delay and make it delay 10 minutes, 15 minutes, not much longer than that. Because what’s going to happen, especially in a young company, especially if you’re using Rails or something like that, you’re going to have somebody who is going to have access to production, because you’re a small company, you haven’t really federated this out yet. Who’s going to drop your main database table? They’re just going to do it and it’s going to happen and you’re going to panic. If you have it in a replica, that databases go in a replica, you have a 10-minute delay replica – 10 minutes to figure it out before the world ends. Hopefully someone deletes the master database. You’re going to know pretty quickly and you can just cut that replica out, pull that other one over. I’m not going to say where i learned this trick. We had to employ it multiple times, and it saves our butts multiple times. That’s my favorite thing to share. [00:18:24] OP: Is that replica on separate system? [00:18:26] BL: It was on a separate system. I actually don’t say, because it will be telling on who did it. Let’s say that it was physically separate from the other one in a different location as well. [00:18:37] OP: I think we’ve all been there. We’ve all have deleted something that maybe – [00:18:41] CC: I’m going to tell who did it. It was me. [00:18:45] BL: Oh no! It definitely wasn’t me. [00:18:46] OP: We mentioned HA. Will the panel think that there’s now a slightly inverse relationship between the amount of HA that you architect for versus the disaster recovery plan that you have implemented on the back of that? More you’re architecting around HA, like the less you architect or plan for DR. Not eliminating ether of them. [00:19:08] BL: I see it more. Mean, it used to be 15 years ago. [00:19:11] CC: Sorry. HA, we’re talking about high availability. [00:19:15] BL: When you think about high availability, a lot of sites were hosted. This is really before you had public cloud and a lot of people were hosting things on WebHost or they’re hosting themselves. Even if you are a company who had like a big equinox of level 3, you probably didn’t have two facilities at two different equinoxes or level 3, which probably does had one big cage and you just had diversity in the systems in there. We found people had these huge tape backups and we’re very diligent about swapping our tapes out. One thing you did was we made sure that – I mean, lots of practice of bringing this huge system down, because we assumed that the database would die and we would just spend a few hours bringing it back up, or days. Now with high availability, we can architect systems where that is less of a problem, because we could run more things that manage our data. Then we can also do high availability in the backend on the database side too. We can do things like multi-writes and multi-reads. We can actually write our data in multiple places. What we find when we do this is that the loss of a single database or a slice of processing/webhosts just means that our services degraded, which means we don’t really have a disaster in this point and we’re trying to avoid disasters. [00:20:28] JR: I think on that point, the way I’ve always thought about it, and I’ll admit this is super overly simplified, but like successful high availability or HA could make your lead to perform disaster recovery less likely, can, maybe, right? It’s possible. [00:20:45] BL: Also realize that everybody is running in public cloud. In that case, well, you can still back your stuff up to public cloud even if you’re not running in public cloud. There are still people out there who are running big tape arrays, and I’ve seen them. I’ve seen tape arrays that are wider. I’m sitting in an 80-inch wide table, bigger than this table with robotic arms and takes the restic and you had to make sure that you got the text right for that particular day doing your implementation. I guess what I’m saying is that there is a balance. HA, high availability, if you’re doing it in a truly high available way, you can’t miss whole classes of disaster. But I’m not saying that you will not have disaster, because if that was the case, we won’t be having this discussion right now. I’d like to move the conversation just a little bit to more cloud native. If you’re running on Kubernetes, what should you think about for disaster recovery? What are the types of disasters we could have? How could we recover them? [00:21:39] JR: Yeah. I think one thing that comes to mind, I was actually reading the Kubernetes Best Practices book last night, but I just got an O’Reilly membership. Awesome. Really cool book. One of the things that they had recommended early on, which I thought was a really good pull out is that since Kubernetes is a declarative system where we write these manifests to describe the desired state of our application and how it should run, recommending that we make sure to keep that declarative state in source control, just like we would our code so that if something were to go wrong, it is somewhat more trivial to redeploy the application should we need to recover. That does assume we’re not worried about like data and things like that, but it is a good call out I think. I think the book made a good call out. [00:22:22] OP: That’s on the declarative system and enable to bring your systems back up to the exact way they were before kind of itself adds comfort to the whole notion that they could be disaster. If they was, we can spin up backup relatively quickly. That’s back from the days of automation where the guys originally – I came from Red Hat, so fork at Ansible. We’re kind of trying to do the infrastructure as a code, being able to deploy, redeploy, redeploy in the same manner as the previous installation, because I’ve been in this game long-time now and I’ve spent a lot of time working with processes in and around building physical servers. That process will get handled over to lots of different teams. It was a huge thing to build these things, to get one of these things built and signed off, because it literally has to pass through the different teams to do their own different bits of things. The idea that you would get a language that had the functionality that suited the needs of all those different teams, of the store team, could automate their piece, which they were doing. They just wasn’t interactive with any of the other teams. The network people would automate theirs and the application install people would do their bit. The server OS people would do their bit. Having a process that could tie those teams together in terms of a language, so Ansible, Puppet, Chef, those kinds of things try to unite those teams and it can all do your automation, but we have a tool that can take that code and run it as one system end-to-end. At the end of that, you get an up and running system. If you run it again, you get all the systems exactly the same as the previous one. If you run it again, you get another one. Reducing the time to build these things plays very importantly into this space. Disaster is only disaster in terms of time, because things break all the time. How that affects you and how quickly you can recover. If you can recover in like seconds, in minutes and it hasn’t affected your business at all, then it wasn’t really a disaster. The time it takes you to recover, to build your things back is key. All that automation and then leading on to Kubernetes, which is the next step, I think, this whole declarative, self-healing and implementing the desired state on a regular basis really plays well into this space. [00:24:25] CC: That makes me think, I don’t completely understand because I’m not out there architecting people’s systems. The one thing that I do is building this backup tool, which happens to be for Kubernetes. I don’t completely get the limitations and use cases, but my question is, is it enough to have the declarations of how your infrastructure should be in source control? Because what if you’re running applications on the platform and your applications are interacting with a platform, change in the state of the platform. Is that not something that happens? Of course, ideally, having those declarations and source control of course is a great backup, but don’t you also want to back up the changes to state as they keep happening? [00:25:14] BL: Yeah, of course. That has been used for a long-time. That’s how replication works. Literally, you take the change and you push it over the wire and it gets applied to the remote system. The problem is, is that there isn’t just one way to do this, because if you do only transaction-based. If you only do the changes, you need a good base to start with, because you have to apply those changes to something. How do you get that piece? I’m not asking you to answer that. It’s just something to think about. [00:25:44] JR: I think you’ve hit a fatal flaw too, Carlisia, and like what that simplified just like having source control model kind of falls over. I think having that declarative kind of stamped out, this is the ideal nature of the world to this deployment and source control has benefits beyond just that of disaster recovery scenario, right? For stateless applications especially, like we talked about in the previous podcast, it can actually be all lead potentially, which is so great. Move your CI system over to cluster B. Boom! You’re back up and running. That’s really neat. A lot of our customers we work with, once we get them to a point where they’re at that stage, they then go, “Well, what about all these persisted volumes?” which by the way is evolving on a computer, which is a Kubernetes term. But like what about all these parts on like disk that I don’t want to lose if I lose my cluster? That it totally feeds into why tools like the one you work on are so helpful. Maybe I don’t know if now would be a good time. But maybe, Carlisia, you could expand on that tool. What it tries to solve for? [00:26:41] CC: I want to back up a little though. Let’s put aside stateful workloads and volumes and databases. I was talking about the infrastructure itself, the state of the infrastructure. I mean, isn’t that common? I don’t know the answer to this. I might be completely off. Isn’t that common for you to develop a cloud native application that is changing the state of the infrastructure, or is this something that’s not good to do? [00:27:05] JR: It’s possible that you can write applications that can change infrastructure, but think about that. What happens when you have bad code? We all have bad code. Our people like to separate those two things. You can still have infrastructure as code, but it’s separated from the application itself, and that’s just to protect your app people from your not app people and vice versa. A lot of that is being handled through systems that people are writing right now. You have Ansible from IBM. You have things like HashiCorp and all the things that they’re doing. They have their hosted thing. They have their own premise thing. They have their local thing. People are looking at that problem. The good thing is that that problem hasn’t been solved. I guess good and bad at the same time, because it hasn’t been solved. So someone can solve it better. But the bad thing is that if we’re looking for good infrastructure as code software, that has not been solved yet. [00:27:57] OP: I think if we’re talking about containerized applications, I think if there was systems that interacted or affected or changed the infrastructure, they would be separate from the applications. As you were saying, Brian, you just expanded a little bit [inaudible 00:28:11] containerized or sandboxed, processes that were running separate to the main application. You’re separating out what’s actually running and doing function in terms of application versus systems that have to edit that infrastructure first before that main application runs. They’re two separate things. If you had to restore the infrastructure back to the way it was without rebuilding it, but perhaps have a system whereby if you have something editing the infrastructure, you would always have something that would edit it back. If you have the process that runs to stop something, you’d also have a process that start at something. If you’re trying to [inaudible 00:28:45] your applications and if it needs to interact with other things, then that application design should include the consideration of what do I need to do to interact with the infrastructure. If I’m doing something left-wise, I have to do the opposite in equal reaction right-wise to have an effectively clean application. That’s the kind of stuff I’ve seen anyway. [00:29:04] JR: I think it maybe even fold into a whole other topic that we could even cover on another podcast, which is like the notion of the concern of mutating infrastructure. If you have a ton of hands in those cookie jars and they’re like changing things all over the place, you’re losing that potential single source of declarative truth even, right? It just could become very complicated. I think maybe to the crux of your original point, Carlisia. Hopefully I’m not super off. If that is happening a lot, I think it could actually make recover more complicated, or maybe recovery is not the way to put it, but recreating the infrastructure, if that makes sense. [00:29:36] BL: Your infrastructure should be deterministic, and that’s why I said you could. I know we talked about this before about having applications modify infrastructure. Think about that. Can and should are two different things. If you have it happen within your application due to input of any kind, then you’re no longer deterministic, unless you can figure out what that input is going to be. Be very careful about that. That’s why people split infrastructure as code from their other code. You could still have CI, continuous integration and continuous delivery/deployment for both, but they’re on different pipelines with different release metrics and different monitoring and different validation to make sure they work correctly. [00:30:18] OP: Application design plays a very important role now, especially in terms of cloud native architecture. We’re talking a lot about microservices. A lot of companies are looking to re-architect their applications. Maybe mistakes that were made in the past, or maybe not mistakes. It’s perhaps a strong word. But maybe things that were allowed in the past perhaps are now best practices going forward. If we’re looking to be able to run things independently of each other, and by definition, applications independent on the infrastructure, that should be factored in into the architecture of those applications going forward. [00:30:50] CC: Josh asked me to talk a little bit about Velerao. I will touch up on it quickly. First of all, we’d love to have a whole show just about infrastructure code, GitOps. Maybe that would be two episodes. Velero doesn’t do any backup of the infrastructure itself. It works at the Kubernetes level. We back up the Kubernetes clusters including the volumes. If you have any sort of stateful app attached to a pod that can get backed up as well. If you want to restore that to even a different service provider, then the one you backed up from, we have a restic plugin that you can use. It’s embedded in the Velero tool. So you can do that using this plugin. There are few really cool things that I find really cool about Velero is, one, you can do selective backups, which really, really don’t recommend. We recommend you always back up everything, but you can do selective restores. That would be – If you don’t need to restore a whole cluster, why would you do it? You can just do parts of it. It’s super simple to use. Why would you not have a backup? Because this is ridiculously simple. You do it through a command line, and we have a scheduler. You can just put your backup on scheduler. Determine the expiration date of each backup. A lot of neat simple features and we are actively developing things all the time. Velero is not the only one. It’d be fair to mention, and I’m not a super well versed on the tools out there, but etcd itself has a backup tool. I’m not familiar with any of these other tools. One thing to highlight is that we do everything through the Kubernetes API. That’s for example one reason why we can do selective backup or restores. Yes, you can backup etcd completely yourself, but you have to back up the whole thing. If you’re on a managed service, you wouldn’t be able to do that, because you just wouldn’t have access. All the tools like we use to back up to the etcd offers or a service provider. PX-motion. I’m not sure what this is. I’m reading the documentation here. There is this K10 from [inaudible 00:33:13] Canister. I haven’t used any of these tools. [inaudible 00:33:16]. [00:33:17] OP: I just want to say, Velero, the last customer I worked on, they wanted to use Velero in its capacity to be able to back up a whole cluster and then restore that whole cluster on a different cloud provider, as you mentioned. They weren’t thoroughly using it as – Well, they were using it as backup, but their primary function was that they wanted to populate the cluster as it was on a brand-new cloud provider. [00:33:38] CC: Yeah. It’s a migration. One thing that, like I said, Velero does, is back up the cluster, like all the Kubernetes objects, because why would we want to do that? Because if you’re declaring – Someone explain to everybody who’s listening, including myself. Some people bring this up and they say, “Well, I don’t need to back up the Kubernetes objects if all of that is declared and I have the declaration is source control. If something happens, I can just do it again. [00:34:10] BL: Untrue, because just for any given Kubernetes object, there is a configuration that you created. Let’s say if you’re creating an appointment, you need spec replicas, you need the spec templates, you need labels and selectors. But if you actually go and pull down that object afterwards, what you’ll see is there is other things inside of that object. If you didn’t specify any replicas, you get the defaults or other things that you should get defaults for. You don’t want to have a lousy backup and restore, because then you get yourself into a place where if I go back this thing up and then I restore it to a different cluster to actually test it out to see if it works, it will be different. Just keep that in mind when you’re doing that. [00:34:51] JR: I think it just comes down to knowing exactly what Brian just said, because there certainly are times where when I’m working with a customer, there’s just such a simple use case at the notion of redeploying the application and potentially losing some of those factors that may have mutated overtime. They just shrug to it and go, “Whatever.” It is so awesome that tools like Velero and other tools are bridging that gap, and I think to a point that Olive made, not only just backing that stuff up and capturing it state as it was in the cluster, but providing us with a good way to section out one namespace or one group of applications and just move those potentially over and so on. Yeah, it just kind of comes to knowing what exactly are you going to have to solve for and how complex your solution should be. [00:35:32] BL: Yeah. We’re getting towards the end, and I wanted to make sure that we talked about testing your backup, because that’s a popular thing here. People take backups. I’ve done my backups, whether I dump to S3, or I have Velero dumping to S3, or I have some other method that is in an invalid backup, it’s not valid until someone comes and takes that backup, restore it somewhere and actually verifies that it works, because there’ll be nothing worse than having yourself in a situation where you need a backup and you’re in some kind of disaster, whether small or large, and going to find out that, “Oh my gosh! We didn’t even backup the important thing.” [00:36:11] CC: That is so true. I have only been in this backup world for a minute, but I mean I’ve needed to backup things before. I don’t think I’ve learned this concept after coming here. I think I’ve known this concept. It just became stronger in my mind, so I always tell people, if you haven’t done that restore, you don’t have a backup. [00:36:29] JR: One thing I love to add on to that concept too is having my customers run like fire drills if they’re open to it. Effectively, having a list of potential terrible things that can happen, from losing a cluster to just like losing an important component. Unlike one person the team, let’s say, once a week or one a month, depending on their tolerance, just chooses something from that list and does it, not in production, but does it. It gives you the opportunity to test everything end-to-end. Did your learning fire off? When you did restore to your points, was the backup valid? Did the application come back online? It’s kind of a lot of like semi-fun, using the word fun loosely there. Fun ways that you can approach it, and it really is a good way to kind of stress test. [00:37:09] BL: I do have one small follow up on that. You’re doing backups, and no matter how you’re doing them, think about your strategy and then how long to keep data. I mean, whether it’s due to regulation or just physical space and it costs money. You just don’t backup yesterday and then you’d backup again. Backup every day and keep the last 8 days and then, like old school, would actually then have a full backup and keep that for a while just in case, because you never know. [00:37:37] CC: Good point too. Yeah. I think a lot of what we said goes to what – It was Olive I think who said it first. You have to understand your needs. [00:37:46] OP: Yeah, just which bits have different varying degrees of importance in terms of application functionality for your end user. Which bits are absolutely critical and which bits can buy you a little bit more time to recover. [00:37:58] CC: Yeah. That would definitely vary from product to product. As we are getting into this idea of ephemeral clusters and automation and we get really good at automating things and bringing things back up, is it possible that we get to a point where we don’t even talk about disasters anymore, or you just have to grow, bring this up cluster or this system, and does it even matter why [inaudible 00:38:25]. We’re not going to talk about this aspect, because what I’m thinking is in the past, in a long, long time ago, or maybe not so long time ago. When I was working with application, and that was a disaster, it was a disaster, because it felt like a disaster. Somebody had to go in manually and find out what happened and what to fix and fix it manually. It was complete chaos and stress. Now if they just like keep rolling and automate it, something goes down, you bring it back up. Do you know what I mean? It won’t matter why. Are we going to talk about this in terms of it was a disaster? Does it even matter what caused it? Maybe it was a – Recovery from a disaster wouldn’t look any different than a planned update, for example. [00:39:12] BL: I think we’re getting to a place – And I don’t know whether we’re 5 years away or 10 years away or 20 years away, a place where we won’t have the same class of disaster that we have now. Think about where we’ve come over the past 20 years. Over the past 20 years, be basically looked at hardware in a rack is replace. I can think about 1988, 1999 and 2000. We rack a whole bunch of servers, and that server will be special. Now, at these scales, we don’t care about that anymore. When a server goes away, we have 50 more just like it. The reason we were able to do that across large platforms is because of Linux. Now with Kubernetes, if Kubernetes keeps on going in the same trajectory, we’re going to basically codify these patterns that makes hardware loss not a thing. We don’t really care if we lose a server. You have 50 more nodes that look just like it. We’re going to start having the software – The software is always available. Think about like the Google Spanner. Google Spanner is multi-location, and it can lose notes and it doesn’t lose data, and it’s relational as well. That’s what CockroachDB is about as well, about Spanner, and we’re going into the place where this kind of technology is available for anyone and we’re going to see that we’re not going to have these kinds of disasters that we’re having now. I think what we’ll have now is bigger distributed systems things where we have timing issues and things like that and leader election issues. But I think those cool stuff can’t be phased out at least over the next computing generation. [00:40:39] OP: It’s maybe more around architectures these days and applications designers and infrastructure architects in the container space and with Kubernetes orchestrating and maintaining your desired state. You’re thinking that things will fail, and that’s okay, because it will go back to the way it was before. The concept of something stopping in mid-run is not so scary anymore, because it would get put back to its state. Maybe you might need to investigate if it keeps stopping and starting and Kubernetes keeps bringing it back. The system is actually still fully functional in terms of end users. You as the operator might need to investigate why that’s so. But the actual endpoint is still that your application is still up and running. Things fail and it’s okay. That’s maybe a thing that’s changed from maybe 5 years ago, 10 years ago. [00:41:25] CC: This is a great conversation. I want to thank everybody, Olive Power, Josh Rosso, Brian Lyles. I’m Carlisia Campos singing off. Make sure to subscribe. This was Episode 8. We’ll be back next week. See you. [END OF EPISODE] [0:50:00.3] KN: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

united states god amazon google uk west phd building fire fun european union recovery chefs east disasters os boom ibm oracle effectively reducing backup determine quotes plug hp puppets linux reilly aws azure rails vmware apac google cloud s3 red hat kubernetes packet mysql fujitsu rpo cloud native digital ocean rto postgresql hashicorp ansible dpo slas postgres spanner px openshift gitops mutating us west cockroachdb us east canister heptio web host k10 kubernetes api cloud spanner softlayer announcer welcome

Kerry Noone, Director of Employer Branding at CVS Health

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2019 32:22

Sponsored by Workhere.com and Emissary.ai Hi, this is Kerry Noone, director of Employer Branding for CVS Health, and I'm next on the Rec Tech Podcast. Announcer: Welcome to Rec Tech, the Podcast where recruiting and technology intersect. Each month you'll hear from vendors shaping the recruiting world, along with recruiters who'll tell you how they use technology to hire talent. Now here's your host, the mad scientist of online recruiting, Chris Russell. Chris Russell: Yes, indeed. You're listening to the only Podcast that helps recruiters and employers connect with more [inaudible 00:00:32] technology, inspire conversations. We're all about the new tools and tactics to landmark talent. Today's show is a practitioner edition. The Rec Tech Podcast is sponsored in part by our friends at Emissary.ai the Text Recruiting Platform, your next superstars in demand and on the move, and so the easiest way to connect with them faster and more effectively wherever they are. Use their tool such as a one-to-one text campaigns, group campaigns, share by text, apply reminders, all of which allow you to capture more applicants at that point to apply, and get them into your system, go to Emissary.ai, self schedule a demo, and let them know you heard it on the Rec Tech Podcast. Chris Russell: All right. Kerry Noone is a recruiting marketing and employer branding professional with more than 25 years of experience in developing and delivering knowledge based solutions through digital marketing. Kerry has been instrumental in launching successful media... social media programs that empower employees to share their personal and professional stories as corporate brand ambassadors. She currently manages the CVS health recruit marketing and advertising, and is transforming the CVS Health Candidate experience, though the robust content strategy, recruitment marketing guidelines, mobile apply in a fun, emotional and a purpose-driven recruitment value proposition campaign. I've known Kerry for a number of years going back to her days at Amtrak, and I'm finally glad she's on the show. So Kerry, welcome to Rec Tech. Kerry Noone: Thank you. I'm excited to be here as well. Chris Russell: Definitely. I was looking forward to the conversation, and I'm glad they reached out and pitched me you, to talk to you, because you're definitely someone I want to... I've admired over the years going back to your time at Antrak there. And you've always been a really good recruiting marketing person overall. And so I think you have a wealth of knowledge, and looking forward to hearing what you have to say today. So I guess let's set the scene first. If you could just start out by telling us a little bit about CVS Health's hiring goals for next year, and what you guys are up to lately. Kerry Noone: Sure. So we... about a year ago we integrated with Aetna to become one company. So our goal for 2020... it has been for 2019 and continues to be for 2020, is to integrate the two brands. So not only go down to one system, we'll have one career site as opposed to the two career sites that we currently have. Chris Russell: Oh yeah. Kerry Noone: But then also from a brand perspective, it's making sure that our candidates understand that we're one company, and that we're working towards common goals. So I think that that's probably an opportunity and a challenge for us for 2020. Chris Russell: And tell me about your team there at CVS Health, as far as your employer branding goes, how big is it? And maybe kind of define the roles if you could. Kerry Noone: Sure. So I've actually... I'm very fortunate. I think one of the things that I'm most proud about is the team that we have. When I first started in 2016 we... I was a team of two, it was me and one other person. And over the past three-and-a-half years or so we've continued to take on more work at the organization within talent acquisition as well as outside of talent acquisition. And along with that... those new responsibilities came a larger team. Kerry Noone: So currently I am at a team... or a total team of six, and we are all very hands on, we've created a process. So we have a lot of requests that come in every single day, and we created a process to help streamline that and monitor the workload. Selfishly, I enjoy having work life balance. So of course I want to make sure that my team is equally as balanced as I am. Kerry Noone: So those... we have a primary secondary contact for everything that we do. The team is made up of, as I said, six people. So we have two people who focused on... one person who focuses on high volume hiring campaigns. The other person focuses on more longterm campaigns, and when I say focuses on campaigns, they manage the budgets end, and applicant flow and conversions, monitoring and reporting back to the teams that are providing the budget for those campaigns. Kerry Noone: I also have someone who focuses on just the Aetna side of the business, as well as one person who combined part of her... and when I say Aetna side of the business, I mean the campaigns that come in from the Aetna side of the business. And then I have one person who focuses on... part of her time is on a very specific campaign for our longterm care. Kerry Noone: And then the other part of her time is focused on technology. So making sure that our recruitment marketing tool is syncing with our ATS, making sure that the candidate experience is optimized, any kind of tech issues that come up, she is our go to person. And then very, very fortunate to have hired a creative person on the team about two years ago... a year-and-a-half ago or so. She focuses on all of the creative requests that anything from social media content, to a flyer, to a print ad, to radio slots, to targeted ads on job boards. She manages all of the creative that's needed to support our hiring campaigns. Chris Russell: Very cool. Do you guys have a lot of autonomy as far as the creative marketing and messaging that goes out? I mean, how often do you have to interface with your general marketing team overall? Kerry Noone: We're constantly reviewing and working closely with the enterprise brand and communications team, just to make sure that we are... we're compliant. So the person on the team, Amy went through all of the training that's required, and then she works closely if anything needs to be reviewed. We also have an opportunity because we've built that strong relationship with the enterprise brand and marketing and communications team. Kerry Noone: We also have lots of opportunities to participate in wider [inaudible 00:06:47] wider programs within the organization. For example, we just last week, I wasn't able to attend because it was snowy, but we had an employee photo shoot. That's about the third one that we have done since I joined in 2016, and then we also have a brand story. So not only do we try to tell the stories on our career site, we also work very closely with internal communications to tell that those stories, so when they have a day in the life, for example, that they highlight on our internal communication tools, we work closely with them to make sure that it is compliant and able to share externally as well. Chris Russell: Yeah. How... storytelling, you mentioned that phrase, I think more companies need to do that, but what... give me your take on why that's so important for an employer to tell those stories internally? Kerry Noone: So I think that the job descriptions... we try our best to make the job descriptions the marketing tool that it's intended to be. But I also think that it's very hard to communicate exactly what it's going to be like working on that team. When you can say in a job description you're going to report to the Chief Human Resource Officer, and you're going to have a team of six. But really seeing what that team looks like, helps to get over a barrier of if someone is choosing to work for the organization, or as we hear often, if they're choosing not to work. So opting out, choosing to opt out. We use the storytelling tools, we have a automated process when someone joins the organization, or when we are working on a campaign. We have a... an intake form to try and understand how the team works together and the team dynamics. Kerry Noone: And so we collect those, that information via form, so it's an online form that they complete, and we develop personas based on the information that comes in from either the leaders on the team, or the team itself. We also use a tool called AlTru to have those written stories communicated into short snippets of videos. And if we create a landing page, for example, those videos will sit, or those Q & A's will sit on those landing pages so that people can see who they're going to be working with. Kerry Noone: The frequently asked questions are not just a written answer. They are... sometimes they are communicated via the video tool. We're also able to put those video tools like maybe a message from the hiring leader, or a message from your teammates on the job description. And we're hoping that those... that this is something new that we in the last six months have implemented. So we're hoping that we'll see a better conversion rate of people who are clicking on the application and reading the job description to converting to a hire... or an applicant, and then a hirer, and then a successful candidate, or a successful employee. Chris Russell: Yep. Yeah. I'm on your listings now, and I see it looks like pretty much all of them have a video on there. Is that correct? Kerry Noone: They all have a video. Not all of them have the specific video that we do from the team. Chris Russell: Right. Kerry Noone: So our Health Hub Hiring is our first... well actually we did this for our interns, to welcome our interns, to get to know our interns. And then those interns will then help welcome the new interns from next year. So people who've converted from an intern to an actual hire at the organization. Chris Russell: Yeah. Kerry, I don't know if you know these numbers, but how many hires do you make in a year, and how many applications do you get in a year? Kerry Noone: We get about 2 million applications [crosstalk 00:10:31] per year, and we hire anywhere between 130 with the current CVS Health Organization. And then that will go up to maybe 150, so it's... it ranges year-by-year. I was just looking at 2019 numbers last week for a report that I was doing. And [inaudible 00:10:52] sorry Chris. Chris Russell: That's okay. Kerry Noone: That's the challenge of working from home. Right? [crosstalk 00:10:57]. Chris Russell: What's the dog's name? Kerry Noone: The dog is Cocoa Bean. Chris Russell: Cocoa Bean. Kerry Noone: She is on Instagram if you would like to follow her on Instagram. Chris Russell: All right. Put that in the show minutes. Kerry Noone: Yeah. Chris Russell: Awesome. Kerry Noone: So yes, I was going to go back and just say, we were looking at 2019 numbers, and the numbers are slightly different from 2018 numbers, but on par with about 130 thousand. Chris Russell: So 2 million applications per year. Is that... that's a pretty daunting number I would imagine to look at. Kerry Noone: Yes. Chris Russell: Do you... there's nothing whole [inaudible 00:11:36] black hole out there. Is there a... any kind of a process in place where you make sure you'd see... at least touch all those applications in some form, so they get to the jobs... or get some kind of notification whether it's a rejection notice, or moving forward? Kerry Noone: We do. We have an automated process in place, so our application experience doesn't end... or the candidate experience doesn't end at the application, for some of our roles. Some of our roles, they are required to take a virtual job tryout assessment. So once they complete the application, they'll get an email that says, "Your application is completed, and an on file, next steps." Kerry Noone: Not all of our jobs require that virtual job assessment. So in those cases they will receive a confirmation that the email, or the application is completed and submitted successfully. And then there are steps in the process that they'll also either receive an automation or a direct contact from a recruiter. We also have a Dynamic FAQ page. So we have the FAQ, the frequently asked questions to try and... to help the candidate along in their process. But then we also have a form, so if they're not seeing what they're looking for, they can send us an email. And we get [inaudible 00:12:59] we get several emails per day, and we answer every single email, it's a combination of someone on my team, depending on whoever's monitoring the asked questions each day. And that's a question that we get often. What is the status of my application? I haven't... I received an email, but I haven't heard from anyone. Chris Russell: Right. Kerry Noone: And then we connect them with the candidate zone so they can log in to see where they are in the process, or we connect them with someone on the recruiting team who can actually reach out and connect with them. Chris Russell: Very cool. Kerry Noone: So that's part of that process [inaudible 00:13:37] To make sure that they... if they are curious that they can at least get the answer that they're looking for. We also, by the way, turns [inaudible 00:13:46] that candidate zone page, because it is the most second most frequented page on our career site. Chris Russell: Oh yeah. Kerry Noone: We turned that into a hot jobs directory zone. So if they get to that page and they find out that they're not selected, or they're still in the process, but they also see other hot jobs that we're hiring for, they're able to directly get to that information from that page. Chris Russell: Yeah. Kerry, you came to the roll in, I think you said 2016 correct? Kerry Noone: Correct. May of 2016. Chris Russell: Okay. What's a... what are one of the first challenges you kind of came across, and how did you kind of overcome that challenge in this... going to such a large organization like CVS Health? Kerry Noone: Yep. So, when I started I... we did not have any career specific social spaces. Every... all of the social content would have to go through our corporate communications spaces. So, that's one thing that we opened up. We created the career social spaces on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and then expanded the content strategy on LinkedIn. We also... based on some feedback that we had from candidate experience, the Candies awards, the survey from there. Kerry Noone: We realized that people were sort of ending up in a black hole, not necessarily the huge black hole, but still curious about their status, and opportunities and how to apply. So we put into place a... an infographic on how to apply just this level, set the expectations and then the FAQ page, the dynamic FAQ page that I mentioned, to give people another outlet to ask us questions and connect with people. Chris Russell: Yeah, I think helping to... helping your Cans, help them to understand the process they'll be going through is a great piece of content every company should put out there, I think. Right. I'm sure you agree. Kerry Noone: Yeah, absolutely. I think just level setting too. We do receive a large number of applicants each year. For most of them we do hire a considerable retail. So that's an ever changing challenge and opportunity for us. But we just want to at least help people along in the process as much as we possibly can. Chris Russell: I know you use... you guys use the CareerArc platform there at CVS Health. Tell me what you use them for, and what kind of results you've seen from that particular platform? Kerry Noone: Yes, I love CareerArc, it's probably my favorite tool. We use CareerArc for a number of... in a number of ways. So not only to promote jobs on our social spaces, so Twitter being a big area of opportunity, but then also on LinkedIn and Facebook. But then we also... and by the way, it is our number one source for social, so applicants coming in from CareerArc. It's also our lowest cost per application, and lowest cost per hire, which for me, I'm always looking for ways to either make the process easier, or [inaudible 00:17:02] not only on my team, but also for candidates. So for me, I like to call it one of our easy buttons. It's just something that's a no brainer for us. It just helps us to extend the reach. Kerry Noone: But we also have started to use CareerArc to extend the brand, so not just about jobs, and we're hiring for XYZ job in Annapolis, Maryland or wherever it might be. We're also using it to extend our brand, the brands and messages that we have. So on LinkedIn for example, we do less jobs, we do a hot job per day, and we're actually scaling that back to three to four times a week, and using the CareerArc tool to promote the brand, as opposed to just jobs. Because we have our jobs fed to LinkedIn anyway. Chris Russell: Right. So just go... just to go back for a second, you said... I think you said that social media is your biggest source of hire. Is that correct? Kerry Noone: No. CareerArc is our... in the social world, CareerArc is our number one source. So we do organic, and we do paid sponsor on LinkedIn and Instagram. A little bit on Twitter and a little bit on LinkedIn, but CareerArc, because the volume and the ability to extend the reach so broadly, is our number one source for bringing people in through social spaces. Chris Russell: Got you. You mentioned paid there too. What's... what do you think is, from a retail standpoint, retail hiring standpoint. What channel works the best do you think? Kerry Noone: We see a lot of engagement on Facebook, so we've started to use the Facebook jobs. We see a lot of interaction there and... but one of the things that we also notice that unlike LinkedIn where people do keep their resume and their information up to date, I just don't think that people on Facebook are thinking of it as a job tool. So their information where they've worked and the experience that they've had at each of these different organizations, is not necessarily up to date. Kerry Noone: So we're using the platform itself to guide people through that process. So what... we'll make an observation and say, "Oh, did you know that you can search for a job on here on Facebook in our job section, or by searching. And oh by the way to help get noticed, make sure that your information, your background, and your experience is up to date in your profile on Facebook." Chris Russell: I have one more question about social media. What's one post that you guys have put out there, could be a picture or video, anything that really... that became your best sort of engaging post out there, does one come to mind? And could you describe that post? Kerry Noone: I can. I can. We have quite a few that are out there that I could probably review, but one that comes to mind that's most recent. October was individuals with disabilities awareness month. And so we interviewed someone who had, not a visible disability, but an experience that created a disability for herself that she... we had a Q & A, and we... she talked through her experience, that [inaudible 00:20:12] or that post in itself, received quite a bit of feedback from people who were reading it, not just on Facebook, but also on Twitter and on LinkedIn. It was a nice awareness that we as a company are... we make an effort to hire people with individuals first of all, but that a disability doesn't necessarily have to be one that's a visible, you don't have to be in a wheelchair to have a disability. And that awareness in general I think is important to communicate. Chris Russell: Yeah, okay. You mentioned AlTru career work of course, while other tools are part of your HR tech stack today? Kerry Noone: Yeah, we use a couple of different tools. We use Surveil to constantly monitor how we're doing and what the candidates are thinking of their experience with us, so that's always on. We also use Brazen Technology for virtual hiring events. We use HireVue for interviews that we are... video interviews. Chris Russell: Okay. Kerry Noone: And then our AI chatbot is Paradox. Chris Russell: Okay. Kerry Noone: So we use Paradox on the rep level, and on our landing page. And we're getting ready to launch a job search, an AI job search tool. Chris Russell: Okay. And what's your ATS there? Kerry Noone: We have Brazen, I'm sorry. Not Brazen. We have connect the Brassring. Chris Russell: Connects. Okay. The Brassring. Very good. Okay. The... I did see on your [inaudible 00:21:48] I got a pop up asking my feedback on the Can experience. So you said Surveil runs that. Well what do you learn through those surveys, that feedback you're getting from these candidates about your connect experience? Kerry Noone: So we [inaudible 00:22:01] we have two different surveys. We have one in the job seeker experience, are they finding what they're looking for? Do they have recommendations? Are they willing to be followed up and do a follow up survey? And then we have a survey that is on the thank you page. So once someone completes the application, what did they find? Did they find that it was a good experience for them? Did they find that it was a challenging experience? And we always ask for recommendations. And then we take those, we monitor it regularly, we report on it regularly. So we report on the NPS score of the candidate experience satisfaction. Right. And we also take a look at the information that we're gathering. Kerry Noone: We... another tool that I forgot to mention is Your Next Step, which is also part of CareerArc. And that is a link that we have on our dispositions, people who aren't selected for a position. There's a link that says we care about basically the messages. We care about your job seeking experience. Here's a link, and it takes the candidate over to Your Next Step with CareerArc, which offers job search tools, resume tools, interviewing experience, other jobs, similar jobs. We just want to make sure that we're providing as much care for our candidates as we possibly can. Chris Russell: No, that's very cool. I think you just care about all the candidates who apply to your company, not just the ones you hire. Right? Kerry Noone: Absolutely. Yep. Chris Russell: Awesome. Kerry Noone: And we know that we can't accommodate when we get that many applicants per year. We know that there will be people that just aren't going to be selected, and we don't want to just say "Thanks, but no thanks." We want to make sure that they have some tools to help them find a position, whether it's at CVS Health, or at some other organization. Chris Russell: Yeah. I want to ask you about Google for jobs. Are you getting... how's your traffic coming in from that particular source? Kerry Noone: Yes, that's something that we launched within the last six months. Another tech tool that I completely forgot to mention is SmashFly. That's our recruitment marketing tool. Chris Russell: Oh, okay. Kerry Noone: And yes. And so we've been able... and our CRM, so we've been able to partner with SmashFly to put the Google for jobs out there, the search functionality. It's... I think that it's intuitive, it's more... it functions more like a Google search, which we know that most of our traffic from a Google search engine comes from Google, and [crosstalk 00:24:37]. Chris Russell: Have you seen any increase in traffic from it? I did a story a few weeks ago about the traffic from [inaudible 00:24:45] seems to have flattened for many with job boards and employers out there. I'm just curious if you've seen any kind of a trend there? Kerry Noone: Yeah, we are actually in the process of doing an analysis to take a look at previous... the previous search function compared to the Google search functionality, but I don't have those results just yet. We... actually I might even have those tomorrow if we want to follow back up. Chris Russell: Oh cool. Yeah, we certainly [inaudible 00:25:08] put that in the show notes, maybe. I want to ask you about your Talent Community. What do those candidates get when they join that? Kerry Noone: We... that's also something new for 2019, so we... I have some stats, we actually sent five all database CRM emails, and we reached just over 12 million people, so obviously not unique visits, obviously people who have been part of our database. And from those emails we have about 4,800 applications, and now that's obviously what's in it for us. What's in it for them from a Talent Community, we have a CRM responsibility model set up, so each of the different groups are... they'll be sending quarterly newsletters. Kerry Noone: Some of the groups have already... like our Health Hub Hiring, our Minute Clinic Hiring. They're already sending emails. Our pharmacist team, they are already sending those emails. So they're getting unique content that is customized and tailored to what they're interested in. So it's not just... we do the all database emails, and part of that all database emails to make sure that your profile's up to date, so that we can send them the information that they're looking for, and it's very targeted to them. Chris Russell: Nice. Let's take a quick break listeners. [inaudible 00:26:31] talking with Kerry Noone from CVS Health. I want to mention my other sponsor today, which of course is WorkHere, the hyper-local candidate delivery tool through their geo-fencing app platform. They help employers reach more people through their ads with pinpoint precision, where they live, work and shop. WorkHere will advertise your jobs on this [inaudible 00:26:49] use the most, their mobile phone. And that messaging is then delivered into these social mobile apps that they use most often. From their [inaudible 00:26:56] chat team will qualify and engage those folks. Send them back to your ATS via SMS, email or redirect. So head over to WorkHere.com, and be sure to tell them you heard it on our Rec Tech Podcast. Chris Russell: All right, Kerry, I want to ask you about your apply process. I did go on my phone and kind of check it out. I'm a big believer in a... a big critic of many employers, because they have a poor mobile apply process. You don't seem to have that, it seems to be pretty good. When you start the application process with a simple form, it looks like by capturing their name, email and phone number, which is also an option for redirecting to your ATS. So how has that been helpful in converting more applicants to your system overall do you think? Kerry Noone: And that's been great for us. So we... what we do is we start the application experience with, as you said, name and email, and we added phone number so we can communicate via text with them. If they don't complete the application, they receive at 72 hours, they receive a... an email to remind them with a link to take them directly back to the application to complete it. They're also added into an opportunity to keep their information updated, as I mentioned in that all database email. So that in itself we see regular people coming in, as we're monitoring the Health of a Wreck, we see people coming in through that tool. Kerry Noone: We... I would say our mobile experience, application experience is enabled, but there's always ways to improve it, so that's one thing that for 2020 is going to be a huge opportunity for us. We're looking at an overlay with SmashFly to make that [inaudible 00:28:39] more user friendly, mobile user friendly. We're also working with Paradox to create a text opportunity for them, so they can complete their application, ideally this is our goal for 2020. They can complete their application via text messaging, and then Paradox will complete the application in our ATS. That's how we complete it. Kerry Noone: So that's on the horizon. The things that we are able to do right now is to eliminate some of the redundant questions, and then also make some of the questions optional that have traditionally been required in the past. I don't think that we need to know the address of your college campus. So those are the things that we take a look at, and we're always... those surveys that we do, and the Candy experience surveys that we participate in. Those are some insights that we're able to gather from that. Chris Russell: Well you seem to have a lot of moving parts and technologies there, Kerry. [inaudible 00:29:41] as my last question is, just talk about how you manage all of that, and maybe give the listeners some tips out there for how to keep all these new platforms sync together and working properly. Kerry Noone: Well that's always a challenge of course. We want to make sure that we're not just using a technology and it's sitting in its own little silos. So always looking for ways to integrate is top of priority for us. We also have started to look at the communication process, and this came from a conference that we attended, and I can't remember now, I think it was March. But looking at it, less of a funnel, so less of that top of the funnel down to a higher, but more of an infinity loop. And that I'm proudly borrowing from Intel's... no... yeah, Intel's infinity loop. Kerry Noone: I don't know if you've seen that or not, but it's a constant opportunity to continue to communicate with, not just job seekers, but also candidates. And then once they become candidates, how do we tie it all together? How do we tie the continued information that we can provide to them, so that they can not only look at a career, their current career with CVS, but then what's in their future, and how do they grow with the organization? So that's something that we use, that model often is the infinity loop, and how each of them tie together. And where they... where each of our texts fits in this process. Chris Russell: Well, Kerry, I appreciate the info today. I learned a lot, and I'm sure the audience did as well. Is... I guess it's jobs.cvshealth.com, is that the main URL for yours? Kerry Noone: That's correct, yes. Chris Russell: Awesome. Again, I appreciate your time again Kerry, and have a great holiday. Kerry Noone: Great. Thank you Chris. I appreciate the time. Chris Russell: Awesome. That will do for this edition of the Rec Tech Podcast. Thanks again to our sponsors, work here in Emissary. Subscribe to the show, or if you get your Podcast, if [inaudible 00:31:36] subscriber, leave a review, and I'll be sure to thank you on air. Thanks for listening everyone, and remember, always be recruiting. Announcer: Another episode of Rec Tech is in the books. Follow Chris on twitter@chrisrussell or visit rectechmedia.com where you can find the audio and links for this show on our blog. Rec Tech media helps keep employers and recruiters up to date through our podcasts, webinars, and articles. So be sure to check out our other sites, recruiting headlines, and HR Podcasters to stay on top of recruiting industry trends. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon on the next episode of Rec Tech, the Recruiting Technology Podcast.

director health google ai brand jobs maryland paradoxes intel employment employers crm sms faq wreck cvs annapolis xyz amtrak cans nps ats employer branding brazen aetna candies emissary cvs health chris russell selfishly altru work here hirevue chief human resource officer your next step surveil careerarc announcer welcome

Kubernetes as per Kelsey Hightower (Ep 7)

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 9, 2019 56:12

Today on the show we have esteemed Kubernetes thought-leader, Kelsey Hightower, with us. We did not prepare a topic as we know that Kelsey presents talks and features on podcasts regularly, so we thought it best to pick his brain and see where the conversation takes us. We end up covering a mixed bag of super interesting Kubernetes related topics. Kelsey begins by telling us what he has been doing and shares with us his passion for learning in public and why he has chosen to follow this path. From there, we then talk about the issue of how difficult many people still think Kubernetes is. We discover that while there is no doubting that it is complicated, at one point, Linux was the most complicated thing out there. Now, we install Linux servers without even batting an eyelid and we think we can reach the same place with Kubernetes in the future if we shift our thinking! We also cover other topics such as APIs and the debates around them, common questions Kelsey gets before finally ending with a brief discussion on KubeCon. From the attendance and excitement, we saw that this burgeoning community is simply growing and growing. Kelsey encourages us all to enjoy this spirited community and what the innovation happening in this space before it simply becomes boring again. Tune in today! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Bryan Liles Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: Learn more about Kelsey Hightower, his background and why he teaches Kubernetes! The purpose of Kelsey’s course, Kubernetes the Hard Way. Why making the Kubernetes cluster disappear will change the way Kubernetes works. There is a need for more ops-minded thinking for the current Kubernetes problems. Find out why Prometheus is a good example of ops-thinking applied to a system. An overview of the diverse ops skillsets that Kelsey has encountered. Being ops-minded is just an end –you should be thinking about the next big thing! Discover the kinds of questions Kelsey is most often asked and how he responds. Some interesting thinking and developments in the backup space of Kubernetes. Is it better to backup or to have replicas? If the cost of losing data is very high, then backing up cannot be the best solution. Debates around which instances are not the right ones to use Kubernetes in. The Kubernetes API is the part everyone wants to use, but it comes with the cluster. Why the Kubernetes API is only useful when building a platform. Can the Kubernetes control theory be applied to software? Protocols are often forgotten about when thinking about APIs. Some insights into the interesting work Akihiro Suda’s is doing. Learn whether Kubernetes can run on Edge or not. Verizon: how they are changing the Edge game and what the future trajectory is. The interesting dichotomy that Edge presents and what this means. Insights into the way that KubeCon is run and why it’s structured in the way it is. How Spotify can teach us a lesson in learning new skills! Quotes: “The real question to come to mind: there is so much of that work that how are so few of us going to accomplish it unless we radically rethink how it will be done?” — @mauilion [0:06:49] “If ops were to put more skin in the game earlier on, they would definitely be capable of building these systems. And maybe they even end up more mature as more operations people put ops-minded thinking into these problems.” — @kelseyhightower [0:04:37] “If you’re in operations, you should have been trying to abstract away all of this stuff for the last 10 to 15 years.” — @kelseyhightower [0:12:03] “What are you backing up and what do you hope to restore?” — @kelseyhightower [0:20:07] “Istio is a protocol for thinking about service mesh, whereas Kubernetes provides the API for building such a protocol.” — @kelseyhightower [0:41:57] “Go to sessions you know nothing about. Be confused on purpose.” — @kelseyhightower [0:51:58] “Pay attention to the fundamentals. That’s the people stuff. Fundamentally, we’re just some people working on some stuff.” — @kelseyhightower [0:54:49] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Kelsey Hightower — https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower Kelsey Hightower on GitHub — https://github.com/kelseyhightower Interaction Protocols: It's All about Good Manners — https://www.infoq.com/presentations/history-protocols-distributed-systems Akihiro Suda — https://twitter.com/_AkihiroSuda_ Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisia/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilion/ Bryan Liles on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanliles/ KubeCon North America — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america-2019/ Linux — https://www.linux.org/ Amazon Fargate — https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/ Go — https://golang.org/ Docker — https://www.docker.com/ Vagrant — https://www.vagrantup.com/ Prometheus — https://prometheus.io/ Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/ Verizon — https://www.verizonwireless.com/ Spotify — https://www.spotify.com/ Transcript: EPISODE 7 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:41] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets, and today we have a special guest with us, Kelsey Hightower. A lot of people listening to us today will know Kelsey, but as usual, there are a lot of new comers in this space. So Kelsey, please give us an introduction. [00:01:00] KH: Yeah. So I consider myself a minimalist. So I want to keep this short. I work at Google, on Google Cloud stuff. I’ve been involved with the Kubernetes community for what? 3, 4, 5 years ever since it’s been out, and one main goal, learning in public and helping other people do the same. [00:01:16] CC: There you go. You do have a repo on your GitHub that it’s about learning Kubernetes the hard way. Are you still maintaining that? [00:01:26] KH: Yeah. So every six months or so. So Kubernetes is a hard way for those that don’t know. It’s a guide, a tutorial. You can copy and paste. It takes about three hours, and the whole goal of that guide was to teach people how to stand up a Kubernetes cluster from the ground up. So starting from scratch, 6 VMs, you install etcd, all the components, the nodes, and then you run a few test workloads so you can get a feel for Kubernetes. The history behind that was when I first joined Google, we were all concerned about the adaption of such a complex system that Kubernetes is, right? Docker Swarm is out at the time. A lot of people are using Mesos and we’re wondering like a lot of the feedback at that time was Kubernetes is too complex. So Kubernetes the hard way was built as an idea that if people understand how it worked just like they understand how Linux works, because that’s also complex, that if people just saw how the moving pieces fit together, then they would complain less about the complexity and have a way to kind of grasp it. [00:02:30] DC: I’m back. This is Duffie Colley. I’m back this week, and then we also have Michael and Bryan with us. So looking forward to this session talking through this stuff. [00:02:40] CC: Yeah. Thank you for doing that. I totally forgot to introduce who else is in this show, and me, Carlisia. We didn’t plan what the topic is going to be today. I will take a wild guess, and we are going to touch on Kubernetes. I have so many questions for you, Kelsey. But first and foremost, why don’t you tell us what you would love to talk about? One thing that I love about you is that every time I hear an interview of you, you’re always talking about something different, or you’re talking about the same thing in a different way. I love that about the way you speak. I know you offer to be on a lot of podcast shows, which is how we ended up here and I was thinking, “Oh my gosh! We’re going to talk about what everybody is going to talk about, but I know that’s not going to happen.” So feel free to get a conversation started, and we are VMware engineers here. So come at us with questions, but also what you would like to talk about on our show today. [00:03:37] KH: Yeah. I mean, we’re all just coming straight off the hills of KubeCon, right? So this big, 12,000 people getting together. We’re super excited about Kubernetes and the Mister V event, things are wrapping up there as well. When we start to think about Kubernetes and what’s going to happen, and a lot of people saw Amazon jump in with Fargate for EKS, right? So those unfamiliar with that offering, over the years, all the cloud providers have been providing some hosted Kubernetes offering, the ideas that the cloud provider, just like we do with hypervisors and virtual machines, would provide this base infrastructure so you can focus on using Kubernetes. You’ve seen this even flow down on-prem with VMware, right? VMware saying, “Hey, Kubernetes is going to be a part of this control plane that you can use to Kubernetes’ API to manage virtual machines and containers on-prem.” So at some point now, where do we go from here? There’s a big serverless movement, which is trying to eliminate infrastructure for all kinds of components, whether that’s compute, database as a storage. But even in the Kubernetes world, I think there’s an appetite when we saw this with Fargate, that we need to make the Kubernetes cluster disappear, right? If we can make it disappear, then we can focus on building new platforms that extend the API or, hell, just using Kubernetes as is without thinking about managing nodes, operating systems and autoscalers. I think that’s kind of been the topic that I’m pretty interested in talking about, because that feature means lots of things disappear, right? Programming languages and compilers made assembly disappear for a lot of developers. Assembly is still there. I think people get caught up on nothing goes away. They’re right. Nothing goes away, but the number of people who have to interact with that thing is greatly reduced. [00:05:21] BL: You know what, Kelsey? I’m going to have you get out of my brain, because that was the exact example that I was going to use. I was on a bus today and I was thinking about all the hubbub, about the whole Fargate EKS thing, and then I was thinking, “Well, Go, for example, can generate assembler and then it compiles that down.” No one complains about the length of the assembler that Go generates. Who cares? That’s how we should think about this problem. That’s a whole solvable problem. Let’s think about bigger things. [00:05:51] KH: I think it’s because in operations we tend to identify ourselves as the people responsible for running the nodes. We’re the people responsible for tuning the API server. When someone says it’s going to go away, in ops – And you see this in some parts, right? Ops, some people focus a lot more on observability. They can care less about what machine something runs on. They’re still going to try to observe and tune it. You see this in SRE and some various practices. But a lot of people who came up in a world like I have in a traditional ops background, you were the one that pixie-booted the server. You installed that Linux OS. You configured it with Puppet. When someone tells you, “We’re going to move on from that as if it’s a good thing.” You’re going to be like, “Hold up. That’s my job.” [00:06:36] DC: Definitely. We’ve touched this topic through a couple of different times on this show as well, and it definitely comes back to like understanding that, in my opinion, it’s not about whether there will be a worker for people who are in operations, people who want to focus on that. The real question that come to mind is like there is so much of that work that how are so few of us are going to be able to accomplish it unless we radically re-sync how it will be done. We’re vastly outnumbered. The number of people walking into the internet for the first time every day is mind-boggling. [00:07:08] KH: In early days, we have this goal of abstract or automating ourselves out of a job, and anyone that tried that a number of times knows that you’re always going to have something else to do. I think if we carry that to the infrastructure, I want to see the ops folks. I was very surprised that Docker didn’t come from operations folks. It came from the developer folks. Same thing for Vagrant and the same thing from Kubernetes. These are developer-minded folks that want to tackle infrastructure problems. If I think if ops were to put more skin in the game earlier on, definitely capable of building these systems and maybe they even end up more mature as more operations people put ops-minded thinking to these problems. [00:07:48] BL: Well, that’s exactly what we should do. Like you said, Kelsey, we will always have a job. Whenever we solve one problem, we could think about more interesting problems. We don’t think about Linux on servers anymore. We just put Linux on servers and we run it. We don’t think about the 15 years where it was little rocky. That’s gone now. So think about what we did there and let’s do that again with what we’re doing now. [00:08:12] KH: Yeah. I think the Prometheus community is a good example of operations-minded folks producing a system. When you meet the kind of the originators of Prometheus, they took a lot of their operational knowledge and kind of build this metrics and monitoring standard that we all kind of think about now when we talk about some levels of observability, and I think that’s what happens when you have good operations people that take prior experience, the knowledge, and that can happen over code these days. This is the kind of systems they produce, and it’s a very robust and extensible API that I think you start to see a lot of adaption. [00:08:44] BL: One more thing on Prometheus. Prometheus is six-years-old. Just think about that, and that’s not done yet, and it’s just gotten better and better and better. We go to give up our old thing so we can get better and better and better. That’s just what I want to add. [00:08:58] MG: Kelsey, if you look at the – Basically your own history of coming from ops, as I understood your own history, right? Now being kind of one of the poster childs in the Kubernetes world, you see the world changing to serverless, to higher abstractions, more complex systems on one hand, but then on the other side, we have ops. Looking beyond or outside the world of Silicon Valley into the traditional ops, traditional large enterprise, what do you think is the current majority level of these ops people? I don’t want to discriminate anyone here. I’m just basically throwing this out as a question. Where do you think do they need to go in terms of to keep up with this evolving and higher level abstractions where we don’t really care about nitty-gritty details? [00:09:39] KH: Yes. So this is a good, good question. I spent half of my time. So I probably spent time onsite with at least 100 customers a year globally. I fly on a plane and visit them in their home turf, and you definitely meet people at various skill levels and areas of responsibility. I want to make sure that I’m clear about the areas of responsibility. Sometimes you’re hired in an area of responsibility that’s below your skillset. Some people are hired to manage batch jobs or to translate files from XML to JSON. That really doesn’t say a lot about their skillset. It just kind of talks about the area of responsibility. So shout out to all the people that are dealing with main frames and having to deal with that kind of stuff. But when you look at it, you have the opportunity to rise up to whatever level you want to be in in terms of your education. When we talk about this particular question, some people really do see themselves as operators, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Meaning, they could come in. They get a system and they turn the knobs. You gave me a mainfrastructure me, I will tell you how to turn the knobs on that mainframe. You buy me a microwave, I’ll tell you how to pop popcorn. They’re not very interested in building a microwave. Maybe they have other things that are more important to them, and that is totally okay. Then you have people who are always trying to push the boundaries. Before Kubernetes, if I think back to 10 years ago, maybe 8. When I was working in a traditional enterprise, like kind of the ones you’re talking about or hinting at, the goal has always been to abstract away all of these stuff that it means to deploy an application the right way in a specific environment for that particular company. The way I manage to do it was say, “Hey, look. We have a very complex change in management processes.” I work in finance at that time. So everything had to have a ticket no matter how good the automation was. So I decided to make JIRA the ticketing system their front door to do everything. So you go to JIRA. There’ll be a custom field that says, “Hey, here are all the RPMs that have been QA’d by the QA team. Here are all the available environments.” You put those two fields in. That ticket goes to change in management and approval, and then something below the scenes automated everything, in that case it was Puppet, Red Hat and VMware, right? So I think what most people have been doing if you’re in the world of abstracting this stuff away and making it easier for the company to adapt, you’ve already been pushing these ideas that we call serverless now. I think the cloud providers put these labels on platforms to describe the contract between us and the consumer of the APIs that we present. But if you’re in operations, you should have been trying to abstract away all of these stuff for the last 10 or 15 years. [00:12:14] BL: I 100% agree. Then also, think about other verticals. So 23 years ago, I did [inaudible 00:12:22] work. That was my job. But we learned how to program in C and C++ because we were on old Suns, not even Spark machines. We’re on the old Suns, and we wanted to write things in CVE and we wanted to write our own Window managers. That is what we’re doing right now, and that’s why you see like Mitchell Hashimoto with Vagrant and you’re seeing how we’re pushing this thing. We have barely scratched the surface of what we’re trying to do. For a lot of people who are just ops-minded, understand that being ops-minded is just the end. You have to be able to think outside of your boundaries so you can create the next big thing. [00:12:58] KH: Of you may not care about creating the next big thing. There are parts of my life where I just don’t care. For example, I pay Comcast to get internet access, and my ops involvement was going to BestBuy and buying a modem and screwing it into the wall, and I troubleshoot this thing every once in a while when someone in the household complains the internet is down. But that’s just far as I’m ever going to push the internet boundaries, right? I am not really interested in pushing that forward. I’m assuming others will, and I think that’s one thing in our industry where sometimes we believe that we all need to contribute to pushing things forward. Look, there’s a lot of value in being a great operations person. Just be welcomed to saying that what we operate will change overtime. [00:13:45] DC: Yeah, that’s fair. Very fair. For me, personally, I definitely identify as an operations person. I don’t consider it my life’s goal to create new work necessarily, but to expand on the work that has been identified and to help people understand the value of it. I find I sit in between two roles personally. One is to help figure out all of the different edges and pieces and parts of Kubernetes or some other thing in the ecosystem. Second, to educate others on those things, right? Take what I’ve learned and amplify it. Having the amplifying effect. [00:14:17] CC: One thing that I wanted to ask you, Kelsey is – I work on the Valero project, and that does back and recovery of Kubernetes clusters. Some people ask me, “Okay. So tell me about the people who are doing?” I’m like, “I don’t want to talk about that. That’s boring. I wanted to talk about the people who are not doing backups.” “Okay. Let’s talk about why you should be doing maybe thinking about that.” Well, anyway. I wonder if you get a lot of questions in the area of Kubernetes operations or cloud native in general, infrastructure, etc., that in the back of your mind you go, “That’s the wrong question or questions.” Do you get that? [00:14:54] KH: Yeah. So let’s use your backup example. So I think when I hear questions, at least it lets me know what people are thinking and where they’re at, and if I ask enough questions, I can kind of get a pulse in the trend of where the majority of the people are. Let’s take the backups questions. When I hear people say, “I want to back up my Kubernetes cluster.” I rewind the clock in my mind and say, “Wow! I remember when we used to backup Linux servers,” because we didn’t know what config files were on the disk. We didn’t know where processes are running. So we used to do these PS snapshots and we used to pile up the whole file system and store it somewhere so we can recover it. Remember Norton Ghost? You take a machine and ghost it so you can make it again. Then we said, “You know what? That’s a bad idea.” What we should be doing is having a tool that can make any machine look like the way we want it. Config management is boring. So we don’t back those up anymore. So when I hear that question I say, “Hmm, what is happening in the community that’s keeping people to ask these questions?” Because if I hear a bunch of questions that already have good answers, that means those answers aren’t visible enough and not enough people are sharing these ideas. That should be my next key note. Maybe we need to make sure that other people know that that is no longer a boring thing, even though it’s boring to me, it’s not boring to the industry in general. When I hear these question I kind of use it as a keeps me up-to-date, keeps me grounded. I hear stuff like how many Kubernetes clusters should I have? I don’t think there’s a best practice around that answer. It depends on how your company segregates things, or depends on how you understand Kubernetes. It depends on the way you think about things. But I know why they’re asking that question, is because Kubernetes presents itself as a solution to a much broader problem set than it really is. Kubernetes manages a group of machines typically backed by IS APIs. If you have that, that’s what it does. It doesn’t do everything else. It doesn’t tell you exactly how you should run your business. It doesn’t tell you how you should compartmentalize your product teams. Those decisions you have to make independently, and once you do, you can serialize those into Kubernetes. So that’s the way I think about those questions when I hear them, like, “Wow! Yeah, that is a crazy thing that you’re still asking this question six years later. But now I know why you’re asking that question.” [00:17:08] CC: That is such a great take on this, because, yes, it in the area of backup, people who are doing backup in my mind – Yeah, they should be independent of Kubernetes or not. But let’s talk about the people who are not doing backups. What motivates you to not do backups? Obviously, backups can be done in many different ways. But, yes. [00:17:30] BL: So think about it like this way. Some people don’t exercise, because exercise is tough and it’s hard, and it’s easier to sit on the couch and eat a bag of potato chips than exercise. It’s the same thing with backups. Well, backing up my Kubernetes cluster before Valero was so hard that I’d rather just invest brain cycles in figuring out how to make money. So that’s where people come from when it comes to hard things like backups. [00:17:52] KH: There’s a trust element too, right? Because we don’t know if the effort we’re putting in is worth it. When people do unit testing, a lot of times unit testing can be seen as a proactive activity, where you write unit tests to catch bugs in the future. Some people only write unit test when there’s a problem. Meaning, “Wow! There’s an odd things in a database. Maybe we should write a test to prove that our code is putting odd things. Fix the code, and now the test pass.” I think it’s really about trusting that the investment is worth it. I think when you start to think about backups – I’ve seen people back up a lot of stuff, like every day or every couple of hours, they’re backing up their database, but they’d never restored the database. Then when you read their root cause analysis, they’re like, “Everything was going fine until we tried to restore a 2 terabyte database over 100 meg link. Yeah, we never exercised that part.” [00:18:43] CC: That is very true. [00:18:44] DC: Another really fascinating thing to think about the backup piece is that especially like in the Kubernetes with Valero and stuff, we’re so used to having the conversation around stateless applications and being able to ensure that you can redeploy in the case of a failure. You’re not trying to actually get back to a known state the way that like a backup traditionally would. You’re just trying to get back to a running state. So there’s a bit of a dichotomy there I think for most folks. Maybe they’re not conceptualizing the need for having to deal with some of those stateful applications when they start trying to just think about how Valero fits into the puzzle, because they’ve been told over and over again, “This is about immutable infrastructure. This is about getting back to running. This is not about restoring some complex state.” So it’s kind of interesting. [00:19:30] MG: I think part of this is also that for the stateful services that why we do backups actually, things change a lot lately, right? With those new databases, scale out databases, cloud services. Thinking about backup also has changed in the new world of being cloud native, which for most of the people, that’s also a new learning experiment to understand how should I backup Kafka? It’s replicated, but can I backup it? What about etcd and all those things? Little different things than backing up a SQL database like more traditional system. So backup, I think as you become more complex, stays if needed for [inaudible 00:20:06]. [00:20:06] KH: Yeah. The case is what are you backing up and what do you hope to restore? So replication, global replication, like we do with like cloud storage and S3. The goal is to give some people 11 9s of reliability and replicate that data almost as many geographies as you can. So it’s almost like this active backup. You’re always backing up and restoring as a part of the system design versus it being an explicit action. Some people would say the type of replication we do for object stores is much closer to active restoring and backing up on a continuous basis versus a one-time checkpoint. [00:20:41] BL: Yeah. Just a little bit of a note, you can back up two terabytes over 100 meg link in like 44 hours and a half. So just putting out there, it’s possible. Just like two days. But you’re right. When it comes to backups, especially for like – Let’s say you’re doing MySQL or Postgres. These days, is it better to back it up or is it better to have a replica right next to it and then having like a 10 minute delayed replica right next to that and then replicating to Europe or Asia? Then constantly querying the data that you’re replicating. That’s still a backup. What I’m saying here is that we can change the way that we talk about it. Backup started as conventional as they used to be. There are definitely other ways to protect your data. [00:21:25] KH: Yeah. Also, I think the other part too around the backup thing is what is the price of data loss? When you take a backup, you’re saying, “I’m willing to lose this much data between the last backup and the next.” That cost is too high than backing up cannot be your primary mode of operation, because the cost of losing data is way too high, then replication becomes a complementing factor in the whole discussion of backups versus real-time replication and shorter times to recovery. I have a couple of questions. When should people not use Kubernetes? Do you know what I mean? I visit a lot of customers, I work with a lot of eng teams, and I am in the camp of Kubernetes is not for everything, right? That’s a very obvious thing to say. But some people don’t actually practice it that way. They’re trying to jam more and more into Kubernetes. So I love to get your insights on where do you see Kubernetes being like the wrong direction for some folks or workloads. [00:22:23] MG: I’m going to scratch this one from my question list to Kelsey. [00:22:26] KH: I’ll answer it too then. I’ll answer it after you will answer it. [00:22:29] MG: Okay. Who wants to go first? [00:22:30] BL: All right. I’ll go first. There are cases when I’m writing a piece of software where I don’t care about the service discovery. I don’t care about ingress. It’s just software that needs to run. When I’m running it locally, I don’t need it. If it’s simple enough where I could basically throw it into a VM through a CloudNet script, I think that is actually lower friction than Kubernetes if it’s simple. Now, but I’m also a little bit jaded here, because I work for the dude who created Kubernetes, and I’m paid to create solutions for Kubernetes, but I’m also really pragmatic about it as well. It’s all about effort for me. If I can do it faster in CloudNet, I will. [00:23:13] DC: For my part, I think that there’s – I have a couple of – I got follow on questions to this real quick. But I do think that if you’re not actively trying to develop a distributed systems, something where you’re actually making use of the primitives that Kubernetes provides, then that already would kind of be a red flag for me. If you’re building a monolithic application or if you’re in that place where you’re just rapidly iterating on a SaaS product and you’re just trying to like get as many commits on this thing until it works and like just really rapidly prototype or even create this thing. Maybe Kubernetes isn’t the right thing, because although we’ve come a long way in improving the tools that allow for that iteration, I certainly wouldn’t say that we’re like all the way there yet. [00:23:53] BL: I would debate you that, Duffy. [00:23:55] DC: All right. Then the other part of it is Kubernetes aside, I’m curious about the same question as it relates to containerization. Is it containerization the right thing for everyone, or have we made that pronouncement, for example? [00:24:08] KH: I’m going to jump in and answer on this one, because I definitely think we need a way to transport applications in some way, right? We used to do it on floppy disks. We used to do it on [inaudible 00:24:18]. I think the container to me I treat as a glorified [inaudible 00:24:23]. That’s the way I’ve been seeing it for years. Registry store them. They replace [inaudible 00:24:28]. Great. Now we kind of have a more maybe universal packaging format that can handle simple use cases, scratch containers where it’s just your binary, and the more complex use cases where you have to compose multiple layers to get the output, right? I think RPM spec files used to do something very similar when you start to build those thing in [inaudible 00:24:48], “All right. We got that piece.” Do people really need them? The thing I get weary about is when people believe they have to have Kubernetes on their laptop to build an app that will eventually deploy to Kubernetes, right? If we took that thinking about the cloud, then everyone would be trying to install open stack on their laptop just to build an app. Does that even make sense? Does that make sense in that context? Because you don’t need the entire cloud platform on your laptop to build an app that’s going to take a request and respond. I think Kubernetes people, I guess because it’s easier to put your on laptop, people believe that it needs to be there. So I think Kubernetes is overused, because people just don’t quite understand what it does. I think there’s a case where you don’t use Kubernetes, like I need to read a file from a bucket. Someone uploaded an XML file and my app is going to translate it into JSON. That’s it. In that case, this is where I think functions as a service, something like Cloud Run or even Heroku make a lot more sense to me because the operational complexity is kind of hitting within a provider and is linked almost like an SDK to the overall service, which is the object store, right? The compute part, I don’t want to make a big deal about, because it’s only there to process the file that got uploaded, right? It’s almost like a plug-in to an FTP server, if you will. Those are the cases where I start to see Kubernetes become less of a need, because I need a custom platform to do such an obvious operation. [00:26:16] DC: Those applications that require the primitives that Kubernetes provides, service discovery, the ability to define ingress in a normal way. When you’re actually starting to figure out how you’re going to platform that application with regard to those primitives, I do see the argument for having Kubernetes locally, because you’re going to be using those tools locally and remotely. You have some way of defining what that platforming requirement is. [00:26:40] KH: So let me pull on that thread. If you have an app that depends on another app, typically we used to just have a command line flag that says, “This app is over there.” Local host when it’s on my laptop. Some DNS name when it’s in the cluster, or a config file can satisfy that need. So the need for service discovery usually arises where you don’t know where things are. But if you’re literally on your laptop, you know where the things are. You don’t really have that problem. So when you bring that problem space to your laptop, I think you’re actually making things worse. I’ve seen people depend on Kubernetes service discovery for the app to work. Meaning, they just assume they can call a thing by name and they don’t support IPs, and ports. They don’t support anything, because they say, “Oh! No. No. No. You’ll always be running into Kubernetes.” You know what’s going to happen? In 5 or 10 years, we’re going to be talking like, “Oh my God! Do you remember when you used to use Kubernetes? Man! That legacy thing. I built my whole career porting apps away from Kubernetes to the next thing.” The number one thing we’ll talk about is where people lean too hard on service discovery, or people who built apps that taught to config maps directly. Why are you calling the Kubernetes API from your app? That’s not a good design. I think we got to be careful coupling ourselves too much to the infrastructure. [00:27:58] MG: It’s a fair point too. Two answers from my end, to your question. So one is I just build an appliance, which basically priced to bring an AWS Lambda experience to the Vsphere ecosystem. Because we don’t – Or actually my approach is that I don’t want any ops people who needs to do some one-off things, like connect this guy to another guy. I don’t want him to learn Kubernetes for that. It should be as simple as writing a function. So for that appliance, we had to decide how do we build it? Because it should be scalable. We might have some function as a service component running on there. So we looked around and we decided to put it on Kubernetes. So build the appliance as a traditional VM using Kubernetes on top. For me as a developer, it gave me a lot of capabilities, like self-healing, the self-healing capabilities. But it’s also a fair point that you wrote, Kelsey, about how much do we depend or write our applications being depend on those auxiliary features from Kubernetes? Like self-healing, restarts, for example. [00:28:55] KH: Well, in your case, you’re building a platform. I would hate for you to tell me that you rebuilt a Kubernetes-like thing just for that appliance. In your case, it’s a great use case. I think the problem that we have as platform builders is what happens when things start leaking up to the user? You tell a user all they have to care about is functions. Then they get some error saying, “Oh! There’s some Kubernetes security context that doesn’t work.” I’m like, “What the hell is Kubernetes?” That leakage is the problem, and I think that’s the part where we have to be careful, and it will take time, but we don’t start leaking the underlying platform making the original goal untrue. [00:29:31] MG: The point is where I wanted to throw this question back was now these functions being written as simple scripts, whatever, and the operators put in. They run on Kubernetes. Now, the operators don’t know that it runs in Kubernetes. But going back to your question, when should we not use Kubernetes. Is it me writing in a higher level abstraction like a function? Not using Kubernetes in first sense, because I don’t know actually I’m using it. But on the covers, I’m still using it. So it’s kind of an answer and not an answer to your question because – [00:29:58] KH: I’ve seen these single node appliances. There’s only one node, right? They’re only there to provide like email at a grocery store. You don’t have a distributed system. Now, what people want is the Kubernetes API, the way it deploys things, the way it swaps out a running container for the next one. We want that Kubernetes API. Today, the only way to get it is by essentially bringing up a whole Kubernetes cluster. I think the K3S project is trying to simplify that by re-implementing Kubernetes. No etcd, SQLite instead. A single binary that has everything. So I think when we start to say what is Kubernetes, there’s the implementation, which is a big distributed system. Then there’s the API. I think what’s going to happen is if you want the Kubernetes API, you’re going to have so many more choices on the implementation that makes better sense for the target platform. So if you’re building an appliance, you’re going to look at K3S. If you’re a cloud provider, you’re going to probably look something like what we see on GitHub, right? You’re going to modify and integrate it into your cloud platform. [00:31:00] BL: Of maybe what happened with Kubernetes over the next few years is what happened with the Linux API, or the API. Firecracker and gVisor did this, and WSL did this. We can basically swap out Linux from the backend because we can just get on with the calls. Maybe that will happen with Kubernetes as well. So maybe Kubernetes will become a standard where Kubernetes standard and Kubernetes implementation that we have right now. I don’t even know about that one. [00:31:30] KH: We’re starting to see it, right? When you say here is my pod, and we can just look at Fargate for EKS as an example. When you give them a pod, their implementation is definitely different than what most people are thinking about running these days, right? One pod per VM. Not using Virtual Kube. So they’ve taken that pod spec and tried to uphold its means. But the problem with that, you get leaks. For example, they don’t allow you to bind to a host 4. Well, the pod spec says you can bind to a host 4. Their implementation doesn’t allow you to do it, and we see the same problem with gVisor. It doesn’t implement all the system calls. You couldn’t run the Docker daemon on top of gVisor. It wouldn’t work. So I think as long as we don’t leak, because when we leak, then we start breaking stuff. [00:32:17] BL: So we’re doing the same thing with Project Pacific here at VMware, where this concept of a pod is actually a virtual machines that loops in like a tenth of a second. It’s pretty crazy how they’ve been able to figure that out. If we can get this right, that’s huge for us. That means we can move out of our appliance and we can create better things that actually work. I’m VMware specific. I’m on AWS and I want this name space. I can use Fargate and EKS. That’s actually a great idea. [00:32:45] MG: I remember this presentation, Kelsey, that you gave. I think two or three years ago. It might be three years, where you took the Kubernetes architecture and you removed the boxes and the only thing remaining was the API server. This is where it clicked to me as like, “This is right,” because I was focused on the scheduler. I wanted to understand the scheduler. But then you zoomed out or your stripped off all these pieces and the only thing remaining was the API server. This is where it clicked to me. It’s like [inaudible 00:33:09] or like the syscall interface. It’s basically my API to do some crazy things that I would have write on my own and assembly kind of something before I could even get started. As well the breakthrough moment for me, this specific presentation. [00:33:24] KH: I’m working on an analogy to talk about what’s happening with the Kubernetes API, and I haven’t refined it yet. But when the web came out, we had all of these HTTP verbs, put post git. We have a body. We have headers. You can extract that out of the whole web, the web browser plus the web server. If you have tracked out that one piece, the instead of building web package, we can build APIs and GraphQL, because we can reuse many of those mechanisms, and we just call that RESTful interfaces. Kubernetes is going through the same evolution, right? The first thing we built was this container orchestration tool. But if you look at the CRDs, the way we do RBAC, the way we think about the status field in a custom object, if you extract those components out, then you end up with this Kubernetes style APIs where we start to treat infrastructure not as code, but as data. That will be the restful moment for Kubernetes, right? The web, we extracted it out, then we have REST interfaces. In Kubernetes, once we extracted out, we’ll end up with this declarative way of describing maybe any system. But right now, the fine, or the perfect match is infrastructure. Infrastructure as data and using these CRDs to allow us to manipulate that data. So maybe you start with Helm, and then Helm gets piped into something like Customize. That then gets piped into a mission controller. That’s how Kubernetes actually works, and that data model to API development I think is going to be the unique thing that lasts longer then the Kubernetes container platform does. [00:34:56] CC: But if you’re talking about – Correct me if I misinterpret it, platform as data. Data to me is meant to be consumed, and I actually have been thinking since you said, “Oh, developers should not be developing apps that connect directly to Kubernetes,” or I think you said the Kubernetes API. Then I was thinking, “Wait. I’ve heard so many times people saying that that’s one great benefit of Kubernetes, that the apps have that access.” Now, if you see my confusion, please clarify it. [00:35:28] KH: Yeah. Right. I remember early on when we’re doing config maps, and a big debate about how config maps should be consumed by the average application. So one way could be let’s just make a configs map API and tell every developer that they need to import a Kubernetes library to call the API server, right? Now everybody’s app doesn’t work anymore on your laptop. So we were like, “Of course not.” What we should do is have config maps be injected into the file system. So that’s why you can actually describe a config map as a volume and say, “Take these key values from the config map and write them as normal files and inject them into the container so you can just read them from the file system. The other option also was environment variables. You can take a config map and translate them into an environment variables, and lastly, you can take those environment variables and put them into command line flags. So the whole point of that is all three of the most popular ways of configuring an app, environment variables, command line flags and files. Kubernetes molded itself into that world so that developers would never tightly couple themselves to the Kubernetes API. Now, let’s say you’re building a platform, like you’re building a workflow engine like Argo, or you’re building a network control plane like Istio. Of course, you should use a Kubernetes API. You’re building a platform on top of a platform. I would say that’s kind of the exception to the rule if you’re building a platform. But a general application that’s leveraging the platform, I really think you should stay away from the Kubernetes API directly. You shouldn’t be making sys calls directly [inaudible 00:37:04] of your runtime. The unsafe package in Go. Once you start doing that, Go can’t really help you anymore. You start pining yourself to specific threads. You’re going to be in a bad time. [00:37:15] CC: Right. Okay. I think I get it. But you can still use Kubernetes to decouple your app from the machine by using objects to generate those dependencies. [00:37:25] KH: Exactly. That was the whole benefit of Kub, and Docker even, saying, “You know what? Don’t worry too much more about C groups and namespaces. Don’t even try to do that yourself.” Because remember, there was a period of time where people were actually trying to build C groups and network namespaces into the runtime. There’s a bunch of like Ruby and Python projects that they were trying to containerize themselves within the runtime. Whoa! What are we doing? Having that second layer now with Containerd on C, we don’t have to implement that 10,000 times for every programming language. [00:37:56] DC: One of the things I want to come back to is your point that you’d made about the Kubernetes API being like one of the more attractive parts of the projects, and people needing that to kind of move forward in some of these projects, and I wonder if it’s more abstract than that. I wonder if it’s abstract enough to think about in terms of like a level triggered versus edge triggered stuff. Taking control theory, the control theory that basically makes Kubernetes such a stable project and applying that to software architecture rather than necessarily bringing the entire API with you. Perhaps, what you should take from this is the lessons that we’ve learned in developing Kubernetes and apply that to your software. [00:38:33] KH: Yeah. I have the fortunate time to spend some time with Mark Burgess. He came out with the Promise Theory, and the Promise Theory is the underpinnings of Puppet Chef, Ansible, CF Engine, and this idea that we would make promises about something and eventually convergent to that state. The problem was with Puppet Chef and Ansible, we’re basically doing this with shell scripts and Ruby. We were trying to write all of these if, and, else statements. When those didn’t work, what did you do? You made an exec statement at the bottom and then you’re like, “Oh! Just run some batch, and who knows what’s going to happen?” That early implementations of Promise Theory, we didn’t own the resource that we were making promises about. Anyone could go behind this and remove the user, or the user could have a different user ID on different systems but mean the same thing. In the Kubernetes world, we push a lot of that if, else statements into the controller. Now, we force the API not have any code. That’s the big difference. If you look at the Kubernetes API, you can’t do if statements. Terraform, you can do if statements. So you kind of fall into the imperative trap at the worst moments when you’re doing dry runs or something like that. It does a really good of it. Don’t get me wrong. So the Kubernetes API says, “You know what? We’re going to go all-in on this idea.” You have to change the controller first and then update the API. There is no escape patches in the API. So it forces a set of discipline that I think gets us closer to the promises, because we know that the controller owns everything. There’s no way to escape in the API itself. [00:40:07] DC: Exactly. That’s exactly what I was pushing for. [00:40:09] MG: I have a somewhat related question and I’m just not sure how to frame it correctly. So yesterday I saw a good talk by someone talking about protocols, like they somewhat forgotten power of protocols in the world of APIs. We got Swagger. We got API definitions. But he made the very easy point of if I give you an open, a close and a write and read method, or an API, you’d still don’t know how to call them in sequence and which one to call it off. This is same for [inaudible 00:40:36] library if you look at that. So I always have to force myself, “Should I do anything [inaudible 00:40:40] or I’m not leaking some stuff.” So I look it up. Versus on protocols, if you look at the RFC definitions, they are very, very precise and very plainly outlined of what you should do, how you should behave, how you should communicate between these systems. This is more of a communication and less about the actual implementation of an API. I still have to go through that talk again, and I’m going to put it in the show notes. But this kind of opened my mind again a little bit to think more about communication between systems and contracts and promises, as you said, Carlisia. Because we make so many assumptions in our code, especially as we have to write a lot of stuff very quickly, which I think will make things brittle overtime. [00:41:21] KH: So the gift and the curse of Kubernetes that it tries to do both all the time. For some things like a pod or a deployment, we all feel that. If I give any Kubernetes cluster a deployment object, I’m going to get back out running pod. This is what we all believe. But the thing is it may not necessarily run on the same kernel. It may not run on the same OS version. It may not even run on the same type of infrastructure, right? This is where I think Kubernetes ends up leaking some of those protocol promises. A deployment gets you a set of running pods. But then we dropdown to a point where you can actually do your own API and build your own protocol. I think you’re right. Istio is a protocol for thinking about service mesh, whereas Kubernetes provides the API for building such a protocol. [00:42:03] MG: Yeah, good point. [inaudible 00:42:04]. [00:42:04] DC: On the Fargate stuff, I thought was a really interesting article, or actually, an interesting project by [inaudible 00:42:10], and I want to give him a shout out on this, because I thought that was really interesting. He wrote an admission controller that leverages autoscaler, node affinity and pod affinity to effectively do the same thing so that whenever there is a new pod created, it will spin up a new machine and associate only that pod with that machine. I was like, “What a fascinating project.” But also just seeing this come up from like the whole Fargate ECS stuff. I was like – [00:42:34] KH: I think that’s the thread that virtual kubelet is pulling on, right? This idea that you can simplify autoscalling if you remove that layer, right? Because right now we’re trying to do this musical chairs dance, right? Like in a cloud. Imagine if someone gave you the hypervisor and told you you’re responsible for attaching hypervisor workers and the VMs. It would be a nightmare. We’re going to be talking about autoscalling the way we do in the cloud. I think Kubernetes moving into a world where a one pod per resource envelope. Today we call them VMs, but I think at some point we’re going to drop the VM and we would just call it a resource envelope. VMs, this is the way we think about that, Firecrackers. Like, “Hey, does it really need to be a complete VM?” Firecracker is saying, “No. It doesn’t. It just needs to be a resource envelope that allows you to run their particular workload.” [00:43:20] DC: Yeah. Same thing we’re doing here. It’s just enough VM to get you to the point where you can drop those containers on to it. [00:43:25] CC: Kelsey, question. Edge? Kubernetes on edge. Yes or no? [00:43:29] KH: Again, it’s just like compute on edge has been a topic for discussion forever. Problem is when some people say compute on edge, they mean like go buy some servers from Dell and put it in some building somewhere close to your property as you can. But then you have to go build the APIs to deploy it to that edge. What people want, and I don’t know how far off it is, but Kubernetes has set the bar so high that the Kubernetes API comes with a way to low balance, attach storage, all of these things by just writing a few YAML files. What I hear people saying is I want that close to my data center or store as possible. When you say Kubernetes on the edge, that’s what they’re saying, is like, “But we currently have one at edge. It’s not enough.” We’ve been providing edge for a very longtime. Open stack was – Remember open stack? Oh! We’re going to do open stack on the edge. But now you’re a pseudo cloud provider without the APIs. I think what Kubernetes is bringing to the table is that we have to have a default low balancer. We have to have a default block store. We have to have a default everything and on or for to mean Kubernetes like it does today centralized. [00:44:31] BL: Well, Doors have been doing this forever in some form or another. 20 years ago I worked for a Duty Free place, and literally traveled all over the world replacing point of sale. You might think of point of sales as a cash register. There was a computer in the back and it was RS-232 links from the cash register to the computer in the back. Then there was dial-up, or [inaudible 00:44:53] line to our central thing. We’ve been doing edge for a long time, but now we can do edge. The central facility can actually manage the compute infrastructure. All they care about is basically CPU and memory and network storage now, and it’s a lot more flexible. The surety is long, but I think we’re going to do it. It’s going to happen, and I think we’re almost right – People are definitely experimenting. [00:45:16] KH: You know what, Carlisia? You know what’s interesting now though? I was watching the Reinvent announcement. Verizon is starting to allow these edge components to leverage 5G for the last mile, and that’s something game-changer, because most people are very skeptical about 5G being able to provide the same coverage as 4G because of the wavelength and point-to-point, all of these things. But for edge, this thing is a game-changer. Higher bandwidth, but shorter distance. This is exactly what edge want, right? Now you don’t have to dig up the ground and run fiber from point-to-point. So if you could buy in these Kubernetes APIs, plus concepts like 5G, and get in that closer to people, yeah, I think that’s going to change the way we think about regions and zones. That kind of goes away. We’re going to move closer to CDNs, like Cloudflare has been experimenting with their worker technology. [00:46:09] DC: On the edge stuff, I think that there’s also an interesting dichotomy happening, right? There’s a definition of edge that we referred to, which is storage stuff and one that you’re alluding to, which is that there may be like some way of actually having some edge capability and a point of presence in a 5G tower or some point with that. In some cases, edge means data gravity. You’re actually taking a bunch of data from sensors and you’re trying to store it in a place where you don’t have to pay the cost of moving all of the data form one point to another where you can actually centralize compute. So in those edge cases, you’re actually willing to invest in a high-end compute to allow for the manipulation of that data where that data lake is so that you can afford to move it into some centralized location later. But I think that that whole space is so complex right now, because there are so many different definitions and so many different levels of constraints that you have to solve for under one umbrella term, which is the edge. [00:47:04] KH: I think Bryan was pulling on that with the POS stuff, right? Because instead of you going to go buy your own cash registry and gluing everything together, that whole space got so optimized that you can just buy a square terminal. Plug it on some Wi-Fi and then there you go, right? You now have that thing. So once we start to do this for like ML capabilities, security capabilities, I think you’re going to see that POS-like thing expand and that computer get a little bit more robust to do exactly what you’re saying, right? Keep the data local. Maybe you ship models to that thing so that it can get smarter overtime, and then upload the data from various stores overtime. [00:47:40] DC: Yup. [00:47:40] MG: One last question from my end. Switching gears a bit, if allow it. KubeCon. I left KubeCon with some mixed feelings this years. But my perspective is different, because I’m not the typical, one of the 12,000 people, because most of them were new comers actually. So I looked at them and I asked myself, “If I would be new to this huge big world of CNCF and Kubernetes and all these stuff, what would I take from that?” I would be confused. Confused like how from [inaudible 00:48:10] talks, which make it sound like it’s so complex to run all these things through the keynotes, which seems to be like just a lineup of different projects that I all have to get through and install and run. I was missing some perspective and some clarity from KubeCon this year, especially for new comers. Because I’m afraid, if we don’t retain them, attract them, and maybe make them contributors, because that’s another big problem. I’m afraid that we’ll lose our base that is using Kubernetes. [00:48:39] BL: Before Kelsey says anything, and Kelsey was a Kub contrary before I was, but I was a Kub contrary this time, and I can tell you exactly why everything is like it is. Well, fortunately and unfortunately, this cloud native community is huge now. There’s lots of money. There are lots of people. There are lots of interests. If we went back to KubeCon when it was in San Francisco years ago, or even like the first Seattle one, that was a community event. We could make the event for the community. Now, there’s community. The people who are creating the products. There’s the end users, the people who are consuming the products, and there are these big corporations and companies, people who are actually financing this whole entire thing. We actually have to balance all three of those. As a person who just wants to learn, what are you trying to learn from? Are you learning from the consumption piece? Are you learning to be a vendor? Are you learning to be a contributor? We have to think about that. At a certain point, that’s good for Kubernetes. That means that we’ve been able to do the whole chasm thing. We’ve cross over to chasm. This thing is real. It’s big. It’s going to make a lot of people a lot of money one day. But I do see the issue for the person who’s trying to come in and say, “What do I do now?” Well, unfortunately, it’s like anything else. Where do you start? Well, you got to take it all in. So you need to figure out where you want to be. I’m not going to be the person that’s going to tell you, “Well, go do a sig.” That’s not it. What I want to tell you is like anything else that we’d have to learn is real hard, whether it’s a programming language or a new technique. Figure out where you want to be and you’re going to have to do some research. Then hopefully you can contribute. I’m sure Kelsey has opinions on this as well. [00:50:19] KH: I think Brian is right. I mean, I think it’s just like a pyramid happening. A the very bottom, we’re new. We need to get everybody together in one space and it becomes more of a tradeshow, like an introductory, like a tasting, right? When you’re hungry and you go and just taste everything. Then when you figure out what you want, then that will be your focus, and that’s going to change every year for a lot of people. Some people go from consumer to contributor, and they’re going to want something out of the conference. They’re only going to want to go to the contributor day and maybe some of the deep-dive technical tracks. You’re trying to serve everybody in two or three days. So you’re going to start to have like everything pulling for your attention. I think what you got to do is commit. If you go and you’re a contributor, or you’re someone what’s building on top, you may have to find a separate event to kind of go with it, right? Someone told me, “Hey, when you go to all of these conferences, make sure you don’t forget to invest in the one-on-one time.” Me going to Oslo and spending an evening with Mark Burgess and really talk about Promise Theory outside of competing for attention with the rest of the conference. When I go, I’d like to meet new people. Sit down with them. Out of the 12,000 people, I call it a win if I can meet three new people that I’ve never met before. You know what? I’ll do a follow-up hangout with them to go deeper in some areas. So I think it’s more of a catch all. It’s definitely has a tradeshow feel now, because it’s big and there’s a lot of money and opportunity involved. But at the same time, you got to know that, “Hey, you got to go and seek out.” You go to Spotif

god amazon spotify learning google europe interview man san francisco discover thinking seattle data debate local open san diego meaning silicon valley os ps figure id amsterdam doors window 5g wifi spark infrastructure saas confused programming phoenix suns backup switching quotes correct fix plug oslo api verizon assembly puppets cc python linux ml comcast aws pos protocols github best buy reinvent rs prometheus apis vm duffy helm qa versus kafka hard way cpu ips ops vmware 4g argo google cloud fundamentally swagger s3 sql docker red hat kubernetes registry cloudflare rpm sdks customize ftp wsl sre firecrackers json valero restful mysql xml jira terraform graphql cloud native cve vms vagrant rfc heroku kub ansible good manners eks duty free postgres aws lambda openstack sqlite yaml cncf config kubecon cdns kelsey hightower rpms istio vsphere mesos dcon rbac mister v fargate linux os mark burgess mitchell hashimoto cloud run crds kubernetes api kubecon north america promise theory announcer thank announcer welcome dc all cloudnet

[BONUS] A conversation with Joe Beda (Ep 6)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 22, 2019 47:21

For this special episode, we are joined by Joe Beda who is currently Principal Engineer at VMware. He is also one of the founders of Kubernetes from his days at Google! We use this open table discussion to look at a bunch of exciting topics from Joe's past, present, and future. He shares some of the invaluable lessons he has learned and offers some great tips and concepts from his vast experience building platforms over the years. We also talk about personal things like stress management, avoiding burnout and what is keeping him up at night with excitement and confusion! Large portions of the show are obviously spent discussion different aspects and questions about Kubernetes, including its relationship with etcd and Docker, its reputation as a very complex platform and Joe's thoughts for investing in the space. Joe opens up on some interesting new developments in the tech world and his wide-ranging knowledge is so insightful and measured, you are not going to want to miss this! Join us today, for this great episode! Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Special guest: Joe Beda Hosts: Carlisia Campos Bryan Liles Michael Gasch Key Points From This Episode: A quick history of Joe and his work at Google on Kubernetes. The one thing that Joe thinks sometimes gets lost in translation on these topics. Lessons that Joe has learned in the different companies where he has worked. How Joe manages mental stress and maintains enough energy for all his commitments. Reflections on Kubernetes relationship with and usage of etcd. Is Kubernetes supposed to be complex? Why are people so divided about it? Joe's experience as a platform builder and the most important lessons he has learned. Thoughts for venture capitalists looking to invest in the Kubernetes space. Joe's thoughts on a few different recent developments in the tech world. The relationship and between Kubernetes and Docker and possible ramifications of this. The tech that is most exciting and alien to Joe at the moment! Quotes: “These things are all interrelated. At a certain point, the technology and the business and career and work-life – all those things really impact each other.” — @jbeda [0:03:41] “I think one of the things that I enjoy is actually to be able to look at things from all those various different angles and try and find a good path forward.” — @jbeda [0:04:19] “It turns out that as you bounced around the industry a little bit, there's actually probably more alike than there is different.” — @jbeda [0:06:16] “What are the things that people can do now that they couldn't do pre-Kubernetes? Those are the things where we're going to see the explosion of growth.” — @jbeda [0:32:40] “You can have the most beautiful technology, if you can't tell the human story about it, about what it does for folks, then nobody will care.” — @jbeda [0:33:27] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/Joe Beda — https://www.linkedin.com/in/jbedaEighty Percent — https://www.eightypercent.net/Heptio — https://heptio.cloud.vmware.com/Craig McLuckie — https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/11/kubernetes-co-founder-craig-mcluckie-is-as-tired-of-talking-about-kubernetes-as-you-are/Brendan Burns — https://thenewstack.io/kubernetes-co-creator-brendan-burns-on-what-comes-next/Microsoft — https://www.microsoft.comKubeCon — https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/events/kubecon-cloudnativecon-europe-2019/re:Invent — https://reinvent.awsevents.com/etcd — https://etcd.io/CosmosDB — https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cosmos-db/introductionRancher — https://rancher.com/PostgresSQL — https://www.postgresql.org/Linux — https://www.linux.org/Babel — https://babeljs.io/React — https://reactjs.org/Hacker News — https://news.ycombinator.com/BigTable — https://cloud.google.com/bigtable/Cassandra — http://cassandra.apache.org/MapReduce — https://www.ibm.com/analytics/hadoop/mapreduceHadoop — https://hadoop.apache.org/Borg — https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kubernetes/Tesla — https://www.tesla.com/Thomas Edison — https://www.biography.com/inventor/thomas-edisonNetscape — https://isp.netscape.com/Internet Explorer — https://internet-explorer-9-vista-32.en.softonic.com/Microsoft Office — https://www.office.comVB — https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/get-started/visual-basic/tutorial-console?view=vs-2019Docker — https://www.docker.com/Uber — https://www.uber.comLyft — https://www.lyft.com/Airbnb — https://www.airbnb.com/Chromebook — https://www.google.com/chromebook/Harbour — https://harbour.github.io/Demoscene — https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5wgp7/who-killed-the-american-demoscene-synchrony-demoparty Transcript: BONUS EPISODE 001 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.9] CC: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to The Podlets. We have a new name. This is our first episode with a new name. Don’t want to go much into it, other than we had to change from The Kubelets to The Podlets, because the Kubelets conflicts with an existing project and we’ve thought it was just better to change. The show, the concept, the host, everything stays the same. I am super excited today, because we have a special guest, Joe Beda and Bryan Liles, Michael Gasch. Joe, just give us a brief introduction. The other hosts have been on the show before. People should know about them. Everybody should know about you too, but there's always newcomers in the space, so give us a little bit of a background. [0:01:29.4] JB: Yeah, sure. I'm Joe Beda. I was one of the founders of Kubernetes back when I was at Google, along with Craig McLuckie and Brendan Burns, with a bunch of other folks joining on soon after. I'm currently Principal Engineer at VMware, helping to cover all things Kubernetes and Tanzu related across the company. I came into VMware via the acquisition of Heptio, where Bryan's wearing the shirt today. Left Google, did that with Craig for about two years. Then it's almost a full year here at VMware. We're at 11 months officially as of two days ago. Yeah, really excited to be here. [0:02:12.0] CC: Yeah, I am so excited. Your name is Joe Beda. I always say Joe Beda. [0:02:16.8] JB: You know what? It's four letters and it's easy – it's amazing how many different ways there are to pronounce it. I don't get picky about it. [0:02:23.4] CC: Okay, cool. Well, today I learned. I am very excited about this show, because basically, I get to ask you anything I want. [0:02:35.9] JB: I’ll do my best to answer. [0:02:37.9] CC: Yeah. You can always not answer. There are so many interviews of you out there on YouTube, podcasts. We are going to try to do something different. Let me fire the first question I have for you. When people interview you, they ask you yeah, the usual questions, the questions that are very useful for the community. I want to ask you is this, what are people asking you that you think are the wrong questions? [0:03:08.5] JB: I don't think there's any bad questions like this. I think that there's a ton of interest that's when we're talking about technical stuff at different parts of the Kubernetes stack, I think that there's a lot of business context around the container ecosystem and the companies and around to forming Heptio, all that. A lot of times, I'll have discussions around career and what led me to where I'm at now. I think those are all a lot of really interesting things to talk about all around all that. The one thing that I think is doesn't always come across is these things are all interrelated. At a certain point, the technology and the business and career and work-life – all those things really impact each other. I think it's a mistake to try and take these things in isolation. There's a ton of lead over. I think one of the things that we tried to do at Heptio, and I think we did a good job is recognized that for anybody senior enough inside of any organization, they really have to be able to play all roles, right? At a certain point, everybody is as a business person, fundamentally, in terms of actually moving the ball forward for the company, for the business as a whole. Yeah. I think one of the things that I enjoy is actually to be able to look at things from all those various different angles and try and find a good path forward. [0:04:28.7] BL: All right. Taking that, so you've gone from big co to big co, to VC to small co to big co. What does that unique experience taught you and what can you share with us? [0:04:45.5] JB: Bryan, you know my resume better than I do apparently. I started my career at Microsoft and cut my teeth working on Internet Explorer and doing client side stuff there. I then went to Google in the office up here in Seattle. It was actually in Kirkland, this little hole-in-the-wall, temporary office, preemie work type of thing. I’m thinking, “Hey, I want to do some server-side stuff.” Worked on Google Talk, worked on ads, worked on cloud, started Kubernetes, was a little burned out. Took some time off, goofed off. Did this entrepreneur-in-residence thing for VC and then started Heptio and then sold the VMware. [0:05:23.7] BL: When you're in a big company, especially when you're more junior, it's easy to get caught up in playing the game inside of that company. When I say the game, what I mean is that there are measures of success within big companies and there are ways to advance see approval, see rewards that are all very specific to that company. I think the culture of a company is really defined by what are the parameters and what are the successes, the success factors for getting ahead inside of each of those different companies. I think a lot of times, especially when as a Microsoft straight out at college, I did a couple internships at Microsoft and then joining – leaving Microsoft that first time was actually really, really difficult because there is this fear of like, “Oh, my God. Everything's going to be super different.” It turns out that as you bounced around the industry a little bit, there's actually probably more alike than there is different. The biggest difference I think between large company and small company is really, and I'll throw out some science analogies here. I think, oftentimes organizations are a little bit like the ideal gas law. Okay, maybe going past y'all, but this is – PV = nRT. Pressure times volume equals number of molecules times temperature and the R is a constant. The idea here is that this is an equation where as you add more molecules to a constrained space, that will actually change the temperature and the pressure and these things all rise. What happens is inside of a large company, you end up with so many people within a constrained space in terms of the product space. When you add more people to the organization, or when you're looking to get ahead, it feels very zero-sum. It very much feels like, “Hey, for me to advance, somebody else has to lose.” That's not how the real world works, but oftentimes that's how it feels inside of the big company, is that if it feels zero-sum like that. The liberating thing for being at a startup and I think why so many people get addicted to working at startups is that startups are fundamentally not zero-sum. Everybody succeeds and fails together. When a new person shows up, your thought process is naturally like, “Awesome, we got more cylinders in the engine. We’re going to go faster,” which is not always the case inside of a big company. Now, I think as you get senior enough, all of a sudden these things changes, because you're not just operating within the confines of that company. You're actually again, playing a role in the business, you're looking at the ecosystem, you're looking at the community, you're looking at the competitive landscape and that's where you have your eye on the ball and that's what defines success for you, not the internal company metrics, but really the business metrics is what defines success for you. The thing that I'm trying to do, here at VMware now is as we do Tanzu is make sure that we recognize the unbounded possibilities in front of us inside of this world, make sure that we actually focus our energy on serving customers. In doing so, out-compete others in the market. It's not a zero-sum game, it's not something where as we bring more folks on that we feel we're competing with them. That's a little rambling of an answer. I don't know if that links together for you, Bryan. [0:08:41.8] BL: No, no. That was pretty good. [0:08:44.1] JB: Thanks. [0:08:46.6] MG: Joe, that's probably going to be a context switch now. You touched on the time when you went through the burnout phase. Then last week, I think you put out a tweet on there's so much stuff going on, which tweet I'm talking about. Yeah. In the Kubernetes community, you’re a rock star. At VMware, you're already a rock star being on stage at VMware shaking hands with Pat. I mean, there's so many people, so many e-mails, so many slacks, whatever that you get every day, but still I feel you are able to keep the balance, stay grounded and always have a chat, even though sometimes I don't want to approach you, but sometimes I do when I have some crazy questions maybe. Still you’re not pushing people away. How do you manage with mental stress preventing another burnout? What is the secret sauce here? Because I feel I need to work on that. [0:09:37.4] JB: Well, I mean it's hard. The tweet that I put out was last week I was coming back from Barcelona and tired of travel. I'm looking forward to right now, we're recording this just before KubeCon. Then after KubeCon, planning to go to re:Invent in Vegas, which is just a social denial-of-service. It's just overwhelming being with that. I was tired of traveling. I posted something and came across a little stronger than I wanted to. That I just hate people, right? I was at that point where it's just you're traveling and you just don't want to deal with anybody and every little thing is really bugging you and annoying you. I think burnout is an interesting thing. For me and I think there's different causes for different folks. Number one is that it's always fascinating when you start a new job, your calendar is empty, your responsibilities are low. Then as you are successful and you integrate yourself into the organization, all of a sudden you find that you have more work than you have time to do. Then you hit this point where you try and like, “I'm just going to keep doing it. I'm going to power through.” Then you finally hit this point where you're like, “This is just not humanly possible.” Then you go into a triage mode and then you have to decide what's important. I know that there's more to be done than I can do. I have to be very thoughtful about prioritizing what I'm doing. There's a lot of techniques that you can bring to bear there. Being explicit about what your goals are and what your priorities are, writing those things down, whether it's an OKR process, or whether it's just here's the my top three things that I'm focusing on. Making sure that those things are purposefully meaningful to you, right? Understanding the difference between urgent and important, which these are business booky type of things, but it's this idea of there are things that feel they have to get done right now and then there are things that are long-term important. If you're not thoughtful about how you do things, you spend all your time doing the urgent things, but you never get to the stuff that's the actually long-term important. That's a really easy trap to get yourself into. Finding ways to delegate to folks is really, really helpful here, in terms of empowering others, trusting them. It's hard to let go sometimes, but I think being able to set the stage for other people to be successful is really empowering. Then just recognizing it's not all going to get done and that's okay. You can't hold yourself to expect that. Now with respect to burnout, for me, the biggest driver for burnout in my career has been when I felt personal responsibility over something, but I have been had the tools, or the authority, or the ability to impact it.When you feel in your bones ownership over something, but yet you can't actually really own it, that is what causes burnout for me. I think there are studies talking about how the worst job is middle management. I think it's not being the CEO. It's not being new to the organization, being junior. It's actually being stuck in the middle. Because you're given a certain amount of responsibility, but you aren't always given the tools necessary to be able to drive that. Whereas the folks at the top, oftentimes they don't have those constraints, so they actually own stuff and have agency to be able to take care of it. I think when you're starting on more junior in the organization, the scope of ownership that you feel is relatively minor. That being stuck in the middle is the biggest driver for me for burnout. A big part of that is just recognizing that sometimes you have to take a step back and personally divest that feeling of ownership when really it's not yours to own. I'll give you an example, is that I started Google Compute Engine at Google, which is arguably the foundational cloud service for GCP. As it grew, as it became more important to Google, as it got reorged, more or more of the leadership and responsibilities and decision-making, I’m up here in Seattle, move down the mountain view, a lot of that stuff was focused at had been in the cloud market, but then at Google for 10 or 15 years coming in and they're like, “Okay, that's cute. We got it from here,” right? That was a case where it was my thing. I felt a lot of ownership over it. It was clear after a certain amount of time, hey, you know what? I just work here. I'm just doing my job and I do what I do, but really it’s these other folks that are driving the bus. That's a painful transition to actually go from that feeling of ownership to I just work here. That I think is one of the reasons why oftentimes, people leave the companies. I think that was one of the big drivers for why I ended up leaving Google, was that lack of agency to be able to impact things that I cared about quite a bit. [0:13:59.8] CC: I think that's one reason why – well, I think that working in the companies where things are moving fast, because they have a very clear, very worthwhile goal provides you the opportunity to just have so much work that you have to say no to a lot of things like where you were saying, and also take ownership of pieces of that work, because there's more work to go around than people to do it. For example, since Heptio and VM – okay, I’m plugging. This is a big plug for VMware I guess, but it definitely is a place that's moving fast. It's not crazy. It's reasonable, because everybody, pretty much, wherever one of us grown up. There is so much to do and people are glad when you take ownership of things. That really for me is a big source of work satisfaction. [0:14:51.2] JB: Yeah. I think it's that zero-sum versus positive-sum game. I think that when you – there's a lot more room for you to actually feel that ownership, have that agency, have that responsibility when you're in a positive-sum environment, versus a zero-sum environment. [0:15:04.9] BL: All right, so now I want to ask your technical question. [0:15:08.1] JB: All right. [0:15:09.5] BL: Not a really hard one. Just more of how you think about this. Kubernetes is five and almost five and a half years old. One of the key components of Kubernetes is etcd. Now knowing what we know now and 2019 with Kubernetes have you used etcd as its key store? Or would you have gone another direction? [0:15:32.1] JB: I think etcd is a good fit. The truth of the matter is that we didn't give that decision as much thought as we probably should have early on. We saw that it was relatively easy to stand up and get going with. At least on paper, it had the qualities that we were looking for, so we started building with it and then just ran with it. Something like ZooKeeper was also something we could have taken, but the operational overhead at the time of ZooKeeper was very different from etcd. I think we could have gone in the direction of them and this is why [inaudible 0:15:58.5] for a lot of their tools, where they actually build the data store into the tool in a native way. I think that can lead in some ways to a simpler getting started experience, because there's just one thing to boot up, but also it's more monolithic from a backup, maintenance, recovery type of thing. The one thing that I think we probably should have done there in retrospect is to try and create a little bit more of an arm's length relationship in Kubernetes and etcd. In terms of having some cleaner interfaces, some more contractor and stuff, so that we could have actually swapped something else out. There's folks that are doing it, so it's not impossible, but it's definitely not something that's easy to do, or well-supported. I think that that's probably the thing that I wouldn't change in that space. Another thing we might want to change, I think it might have been good to be more explicit about being able to actually shard things out, so that you could have multiple data stores for multiple resources and actually find a way to horizontally scale. Now we do that with events, because we were writing events into etcd and that's just a totally different stream of data, but everything else right now – I think now there's room to do this into the future. I think we've been able to push etcd vertically up until now. There will come a time where we need to find ways to shard that thing up horizontally. [0:17:12.0] CC: Is it possible though to use a different data store than etcd for Kubernetes? [0:17:18.4] JB: The things that I'm aware of here and there may be more and I may not be a 100% up to date, is I do know that the Azure folks created a proxy layer that speaks to the etcd protocol, but that is actually implemented on the backend using CosmoDB. That approach there was to essentially create a translation layer. Then Rancher created this project, which is a little bit if you've – been added a bit of a fork of Kubernetes, where they're I believe using PostgresSQL as the database for Kubernetes. I haven't looked to see exactly how they ended up swapping that in. My guess is that there's some chewing gum and bailing wiring and it's quite a bit of effort for each version upgrade to be able to actually adapt that moving forward. Don't know for sure. I haven't looked deeply. [0:18:06.0] CC: Okay. Now I would love to philosophize a little bit, or maybe a lot about Kubernetes. In the spirit of thinking of different questions to ask, so I had a bunch of questions and then I was thinking, “How could I ask this question in a different way?” Maybe this is not the right “question.” Here is the way I came up with this question. We’re so divided out there. One camp loves Kubernetes, another camp, "So hard, so complicated, it’s so complex. Why even bother with it? I don't understand why people are using this." Basically, there is that sentiment that Kubernetes is complicated. I don't think anybody would refute that. Now is that even the right way to talk about Kubernetes? Is it even not supposed to be complicated? I mean, what kind of a tool is it that we are thinking, it should just work, it should be just be super simple. Is it true that it should be a super simple tool to use? [0:19:09.4] JB: I mean, that's a loaded question [inaudible]. Let me just first say that number one, if people are complaining, I mean, I'm stealing this from Tim [inaudible], who I think this is the way he takes some of these things in stride. If people are complaining, then you're relevant, right? If nobody is complaining, then nobody cares about what you're doing. I think that it's a good thing that folks are taking a critical look at Kubernetes. That means that they're taking a look at it, right? For five years in, Kubernetes is on an upswing. That's not going to necessarily last forever. I think we have work to do to continually earn Kubernetes’s place in the technology stack over time. Now that being said, Kubernetes is a super, super flexible tool. It can do so many things in so many different situations. It's used from everything from in retail stores across the tens of thousands of stores, any type of solutions. People are looking at it for telco, 5G. People are looking at it to even running it inside cars, which scares me, right? Then all the way up to folks like at CERN using it to do data analytics for hiring and physics, right? The technology that I look at that's probably most comparable to that is something like Linux. Linux is actually scalable from everything from a phone, all the way up to an IBM mainframe, but it's not easy, right? I mean, to be able to adapt it across all that things, you have to essentially download the kernel type, make config and then answer 5,000 questions, right, for those who haven't done that. It's not an easy thing to do. I think that a lot of times, people might be looking at Kubernetes at the wrong level to be able to say this should be simple. Nobody looks at the Linux kernel that you get from git cloning, Linux’s fork and compiling it and saying, “Yeah, this is too hard.” Of course it's hard. It's the Linux kernel. You expect that you're going to have a curated experience if you want something easy, right? Whether that be an Android phone or Ubuntu or what have you. I think to some degree, we're still in the early days where people are dealing with it perhaps at to raw level, versus actually dealing with it in a more opinionated way. Now I think the fascinating thing for Kubernetes is that it provides a lot of the extension points and patterns, so that we don't know exactly what those higher-level easier-to-use abstractions are going to look like, but we know, or at least we're pretty confident that we have the right tools and the right environment to be able to experiment our way there. I think we're not there yet, but we're set up for success. That's the first thing. The second thing is that Kubernetes introduces a whole bunch of different concepts and ideas and these things are different and uncomfortable for folks. It's hard to learn new things. It's hard for me to learn new things and it's hard for everybody to learn new things. When you compare Kubernetes to say, getting started with the modern front-end web development stack, with things like Babel and React and how do you deploy this and what are all these different options and it changes on a weekly basis. There's a hell of a lot in common actually between these two ecosystems. They're both really hard, they both introduce all these new concepts and you have to be embedded in it to really get it. Now that being said, if you just wanted take raw JavaScript, or jQuery and have at it, you can do it and you'll see on Hacker News articles every once in a while where people are like, “Hey, I've programmed my site with jQuery and it's just fine. I don't need all this new stuff,” right? Just like you'll see folks saying like, “I just SSH’d in and actually ran some stuff and it works fine. I don't need all this Kubernetes stuff.” If that works for you, that's great. Kubernetes doesn't have to solve every problem for every person. Then the next thing is that I think that there's a lot of people who've been solving these problems again and again and again and again, but they've been solving them in their own way. It's not uncommon when you look at back-end systems, to join a company, look at what they've built and found that it's a complicated, bespoke system of chewing gum and baling wire with maybe a little bit Ansible, maybe a little bit of Puppets and bash. Everybody has built their own, complex, overwrought system to do a lot of the stuff that Kubernetes does. I think one of the values that we see here is that these things are complex, unique complex to do it, but shared complexity is more valuable than personal complexity. If we can agree on some of these concepts, then that's something that can be leveraged widely and it will fade to the background over time, versus having everybody invent their own complex system every time they need to solve these problems. With that all said, we got a ton of work to do. It's not like we're done here and I'm not going to actually sit here and say Kubernetes is easy, or that every complex thing is absolutely necessary and that we can't find ways to simplify it. We clearly can. I just think that when folks say, “Hey, I just want this to be easy." I think they're being a little bit too naïve, because it's a very difficult problem domain. [0:23:51.9] BL: I'd like to add on to that. I think about this a lot as well. Something that Joe said to me few years back, where Kubernetes is the platform for creating platforms, it is very applicable here. Where we are looking at as an industry, we need to stop looking at Kubernetes as some estimation. Your destination is really running your applications that give you pleasure, or make your business money. Kubernetes is a tool to enable us to think about our applications more, rather than the underlying ecosystem. We don't think about servers. We want to think about storage and networking, even things like finding things in your cluster. You don't think about that. Kubernetes gives it to you. If we start thinking about Kubernetes as a way to enable us to do better things, we can go back to what Joe said about Linux. Back whenever I started using Linux in the mid-90s, guess what? We compiled it. Make them big. That stuff was hard and it was slow. Now think about this, in my office I have three different Linux distributions running. You know what? I don't even think about it anymore. I don't think about configuring X. I don't think about anything. One thing that from Kubernetes is going to grow is it's going to – we're going to figure out these problems and it's going to allow us to think of these other crazy things, which is going to push the industry further. Think maybe 20 years from now if we're still running Kubernetes, who cares? It's just going to be there. We're going to think about some other problem and it could be amazing. This is good times. [0:25:18.2] JB: At one point. Sorry, the dog’s going to bark here. I mean, at one point people cared about some of the BIOS that they were running on our computers, right? That was something that you stressed out about. I mean, back in the bad old days when I was doing DOS gaming and you're like, “Oh, well this BIOS is incompatible with the –” IRQ's and all that. It's just background now. [0:25:36.7] CC: Yeah, I think about this too as a developer. I might have mentioned this before in this podcast. I have never gone from one job to another job and had to use the same deployment system. Every single job I've ever had, the deployment system is completely different, completely different set of tooling and completely different process. Just being able to walk out from one job to another job and be able to use the same platform for deployment, it must be amazing. On the flip side, being able to hire people that will join your organization already know how your deployment works, that has value in itself. It's a huge value that I don't think people talk about enough. [0:26:25.5] JB: Well honestly, this was one of the motivations for creating Kubernetes, is that I looked around Google early on and Google is really good at importing open source, circa 2000, right? This is like, “Hey, you want to use libpng, or you want to use this library, or whatever.” That was the type of open source that Google is really, really good at using. Then Google did things, like say release the Big Table paper. Then somebody went through and then created Cassandra out of it. Maybe there's some ideas in Cassandra that actually build on top of big table, or you're looking at MapReduce versus Hadoop. All of a sudden, you found that these things diverge and Google had zero ability to actually import open source, circa 2010, right? It could not back import systems, because the operational characteristics of these things were solely alien when compared to something like Borg. You see this also, like we would acquire companies and it would take those companies way too long to be able to essentially re-platform themselves on top of Borg, because it was just so different. This is one of the reasons, honestly, why we ended up doing something like GCE is to actually have a platform that was actually more familiar from acquisition. It's one of the reasons we did it. Then also introducing Kubernetes, it's not Borg. It's a cousin of Borg inside of Google. For those who don't know, Borg is the container system that’s been in production at Google for probably 15 years now, and the spiritual grandfather to Kubernetes in a lot of ways. A lot of the ideas that you learn from Kubernetes are applicable to Borg. It's not nearly as big a leap for people to actually change between them, as it was before, Kubernetes was out there. [0:27:58.6] MG: Joe, I got a similar question, because it seems to be like you're a platform builder. You've worked on GCE, Kubernetes obviously. If you would be talking to another platform architect or builder, what would be something that you would recommend to them based on your experiences? What is a key ingredient, technically speaking of a platform that you should be building today, or the main thing, or the lesson learned that you had from building those platforms, like technical advice, if you will? [0:28:26.8] JB: I mean, that's a really good question. I think in my mind, the mark of a good platform is when people can use it to do things that you hadn't imagined when you were building it, right? The goal here is that you want a platform to be a force multiplier. You wanted to enable people to do amazing things. You compare, again the Linux kernel, even something as simple as our electrical grid, right? The folks who established those standards, God knows how long ago, right? A 150 years ago or whenever, the whole Tesla versus Thomas Edison, [inaudible]. Nobody had any idea the long-term impact that would have on society over time. I think that's the definition of a successful platform in my mind. You got to keep that in mind, right? I think that for me, a lot of times people design for the first five minutes at the expense of the next five years. I've seen in a lot of times where you design for hey, I'm getting a presentation. I want to be able to fit something amazing on one slot. You do it, but then all of a sudden somebody wants to do something different. They want to go off course, they want to go off the rails, they want to actually experiment and the thing is just brittle. It's like, “Hey, it does this. It doesn't do anything else. Do you want to do something else? Sorry, this isn't the tool for you.” For me, I think that's a trap, right? Because it's easy to get it early users based on that very curated experience. It's hard to keep those users as they actually start using the thing in anger, as they start interfacing with the real world, as they deal with things that you didn't think of as a platform. I'm always thinking about how can every that you put in the platform be used in multiple ways? How can you actually make these things be composable building blocks, because then that gives you the opportunity for folks to actually compose them in ways that you didn't imagine, starting out. I think that's some of it. I started my career at Microsoft working on Internet Explorer. The fascinating thing about Microsoft is that through and through and through and through Microsoft is a platform company. It started with DOS and Windows and Office, but even though Office is viewed as a platform inside of Microsoft. They fundamentally understand in their bones the benefit of actually starting that platform flywheel. It was really interesting to actually be doing this for the first browser wars of IE versus Netscape when I started my own career, to actually see the fact that Microsoft always saw Internet Explorer as a platform, whereas I think Netscape didn't really get it in the same way, right? They didn't understand the potential, I think in the way that Microsoft did it. For me, I mean, just being where you start your career, oftentimes you actually sets your patterns in terms of how you look at things over time. I think a lot of this platform thinking comes from just imprinting when I was a baby developer, I think. I don't know. It takes a lot of time to really internalize that stuff. [0:31:14.1] BL: The lesson here is this a good one, is that when we're building things that are way bigger than us, don't think of your product as the end goal. Think of it as an enabler. When it's an enabler, that's where you get that X multiplier. Then that's where you get all the residuals. Microsoft actually is a great example of it. My gosh. Just think of what Microsoft has been able to do with the power of Office? [0:31:39.1] JB: Yeah. I look at something like VB in the Microsoft world. We still don't have VB for the cloud era. We still haven't created that. I think there's still opportunity there to actually strike. VB back in the day, for those who weren't there, struck this amazing balance of being easy to get started with, but also something that could actually grow with you over time, because it had all these extension mechanisms where you could actually – there's the marketplace controls that you could buy, you could partner with other developers that were writing C or C++. It was an incredible platform. Then they leverage to Office to extend the capabilities of VB. It's an amazing ecosystem. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Bryan. [0:32:16.0] BL: Oh, no. That's all good. I get as excited about it as you do whenever I think about it. It's a pretty exciting place to be. [0:32:21.8] JB: Yeah. I'll talk to VC's, because I did a startup and the EIR thing and I'll have them ask me things like, “Hey, where should we invest in the Kubernetes space?” My answer is using the BS analogy like, “You got to go where the puck is going.” Invest in the things that Kubernetes enables. What are the things that people can do now that they couldn't do pre-Kubernetes? Those are the things where we're going to see the explosion of growth. It's not about the Kubernetes. It's really about a larger ecosystem that Kubernetes is the seed crystal for. [0:32:56.2] BL: For those of you listening, if you want to get anything out of here, rewind back about 20 seconds and play that over and over again, what Joe just said. [0:33:04.2] MG: Yeah. This was brilliant. [0:33:05.9] BL: It’s where the puck is going. It's not where we are now. We're building for the future. We're not building for now. [0:33:11.1] MG: I'm looking at this tweetable quotes here, the last 20 seconds, so many tweetable quotes. We have to decide which ones to tweet then. [0:33:18.5] CC: Well, we’ll tweet them all. [0:33:20.0] MG: Oh, yes. [0:33:21.3] JB: Here’s another thing. Here’s another piece of career advice. Successful people are good storytellers. You can have the most beautiful technology, if you can't tell the human story about it, about what it does for folks, then nobody will care. I spend a lot of the time on Twitter and probably too much time, if you ask my family. That medium of being able to actually distill your thoughts down into something that is tweetable, quotable, really potent, that is a skill that's worth developing and it's a skill that's worth valuing. Because there's things that are rolling around in my head and I still haven't found a way to get them into a tweet. At some point, I'll figure it out and it'll be a thing. It takes a lot of time to build that skill to be able to refine like that. [0:34:08.5] CC: I want to say an anecdote of myself. I interview a small – so tiny startup, maybe less than 10 people at the time in Cambridge back when I lived up there. The guy was borderline wanting to hire me and no. I sent him an e-mail to try to influence his decision and it was a long-ass e-mail. They said, “No, thank you.” Then I think we had a good rapport. I said, well, anything you can tell me about your decision then? He said something along the lines like, I was too verbose. That was pre-Twitter. Twitter I think existed, but it was at the very beginning, I wasn't using it. Yeah, people. Be concise. Decision-makers don't have time to read long things. You need to be able to convey your message in short sentences, few sentences. It's crucial. [0:35:07.5] BL: All right, so we're nearing the end. I want to ask another question, because these are random questions for Joe. Joe, it is the week before KubeCon North America 2019 and today is actually an interesting day. A couple of neat things happened today. We had Docker. It was neat. Docker split somewhat and it sold part of it and now they're going to be a tools company. That's neat. We're all still trying decoding what that actually is. Here's the neat piece, Apple released a laptop that can have 64 gigabytes of memory. [0:35:44.4] MG: Has an escape key. [0:35:45.7] BL: It has an escape key. [0:35:47.6] MG: This is brilliant. [0:35:48.6] BL: Yeah. I think the question was what do you think about that? [0:35:52.8] JB: Okay. Well, so first of all, I mean, Docker is fascinating and I think this is – there's a lot of lessons there and I'm not sure I'm the one to tell them. I think it's easy to armchair-quarterback these things. It's hard to live that story. I think that it's fun to play that what-if game. I think it does show that this stuff is hard. You can have everything in your grasp and then just have it all slip away. I think that's not anybody's fault. It's just there's different strategies, different approaches in how this stuff plays out over time. On the laptop thing, I think my current laptop has 16 gigs of RAM. One of the things that we're seeing is that as we move towards a microservices world, I gave a talk about this probably three or four years ago. As we move to a microservices world, I think there's one stage where you create a bunch of microservices, but you still view those things as an app. You say, "This microservice belongs to this app." Within a mature organization, those things start to grow and eventually what you find is that you have services that are actually useful for multiple apps. Your entire production infrastructure becomes this web of services that are calling each other. Apps are just entry points into these things at different points of that web of infrastructure. This is the way that things work at Google. When you see companies that are microservices-based, let's take an Uber, or Lyft or an Airbnb. As they diversify the set of products that they're offering, you know they're not running completely independent stacks. You know that there's places where these things connect to behind the scenes in a microservices world. What does that mean for developers? What it means is that you can no longer fit an entire company's worth of infrastructure on your laptop anymore. Within a certain constraint, you can go through and actually say, “Hey, I can bring up this canonical cut of microservices. I can bring that up on my laptop, but it will have dependencies that I either have to actually call into the prod dependencies, call into specialized staging, or mock those things out, so that I can actually run this thing locally and develop it.” With 64 gig of RAM, I can run more on my laptop, right? There's a little bit of kick in that can down the road in terms of okay, there's this race between more microservicey versus how much I can port on my laptop. The interesting thing is that where is this going to end? Are we going to have the ability to bring more and more with your laptop? Are you going to be able to run in the split brain thing across like there's people who will create network connections between these things? Or are we going to move to a world where you're doing more development on cluster, in the cloud and your laptop gets thinner and thinner, right? Either you absolutely need 64 gig because you're pushing up against the boundaries of what you can do on your laptop, or you've given up and it's all running in the cloud. Yet anyways, you might as well just use a Chromebook. It's fascinating that we're seeing this divergence of scaling up, versus actually moving stuff to the cloud. I can tell you at Google, a lot of folks, even developers can actually be super, super productive with something relatively thin like Chromebook, because there's so many tools there that really are targeted at doing all that stuff remotely, in Google's production data centers and such. That's I think the interesting implication from a developer point of view with 64 gigabytes of RAM. What you going to do Bryan? You're going to get the 64 gig Mac? You’re going to do it? [0:39:11.2] BL: It’s already coming. They'll be here week after next. [0:39:13.2] JB: You already ordered it? You are such an Apple fanboy. Oh, man. [0:39:18.6] BL: Oh, I'm actually so not to go too much into it. I am a fan of lots of memory. You know what? We work in this cloud native world. Any given week, I’ll work on four to five projects. I'm lazy. I don't want to shut any of them down. Now with 64 gigs, I don't have to shut anything down. [0:39:37.2] JB: It was so funny. When I was at Microsoft, everybody actually focused on Microsoft Windows boot time. They’re like, “We got to make it boot faster. We got to make it boot faster.” I'm like, I don't boot that often. I just want the thing to resume from sleep, right? If you can make that reliable on that theme. [0:39:48.7] CC: Yeah. I frequently have to restart my computer, because of memory issues. I don't want to know which app is taking up memory. I have a tool that I can look up, but I just shut it down, flush the memory. I do have a question related to Docker. Kubernetes, I don't know if it's right to say that Kubernetes is so reliant on Docker, because I know it works with other container technologies as well. In the worst case scenario, it's obviously, I have no reason to predict this, but in the worst case scenario where Docker, let's say is discontinued, how would that affect Kubernetes? [0:40:25.3] JB: Early on when we were doing Kubernetes and you're in this relationship with a company like Docker, I looked at what Docker was doing and you're like, “Okay, where is the real value here over time?” In my mind, I thought that the interface with developers that distributed kernel, that API surface area of Kubernetes, that was really the thing and that a lot of the Docker stuff was over time going to fade to the background. I think we've seen that happen, because when we talk about production systems, we definitely have moved past Docker and we have the CRI, we have Container D, which it was essentially built by Docker, donated to the CNCF as it made its way towards graduation. I think it's graduated now. The governance ties to Docker have been severed at this point. In production systems for Kubernetes, we've moved past that. I still think that there's developer experiences oftentimes reliant on Docker and things like Docker files. I think we're moving past that also. I think that if Docker were to disappear off the face of the earth, there would be some adjustment, but I think we have the right toolkits and the right systems to be able to do that. Some of that is open sourced by Docker as part of the Moby project. The whole Docker file evaluation flow is actually in this thing called Build Kit that you can actually use in different contexts outside of the Docker game. I think there's a lot of the building action. The thing that I think is the most influential thing that actually I think will stand the test of time is the Docker container image format. That artifact that you upload, that you download, the registry APIs. Now those things have been codified and are moving forward slowly under the OCI, the open container initiative project, which is a little bit of a sister foundation niche type of thing to the CNCF. I think that's the influence over time. Then related to that, I think the world should be a little bit worried about Docker Hub and what that means for Docker Hub over time, because that is not a cheap service to run. It's done as a public good, similar to github. If the commercial aspects of that are not healthy, then I think it might be disruptive if we see something bad happen with Docker Hub itself. I don't know what exactly the replacement for that would be overnight. That'd be incredibly disruptive. [0:42:35.8] CC: Should be Harbour. [0:42:37.7] JB: I mean, Harbour is a thing, but somebody's got a run it and somebody's got to pay the bandwidth bills, right? Thank you to Docker for paying those bandwidth bills, because it's actually been good for not just Docker, but for our entire ecosystem to be able to do that. I don't know what that looks like moving forward. I think it's going to be – I mean, maybe github with github artifacts and it's going to pick up the slack. We’re going to have to see. [0:42:58.6] MG: Good. I have one last question from my end. Totally different topic, not Docker at all. Or maybe, depends on your answer to it. The question is you're very technical person, what is the technology, or the stuff that your brain is currently spinning on, if you can disclose? Obviously, no secrets. What keeps you awake at night, in your brain? [0:43:20.1] JB: I mean, I think the thing that – a couple of things, is that stuff that's just completely different from our world, I think is interesting. I think we've entered at a place where programming computers, and so stuff is so specialized. That again, I talk about if you made me be a front-end developer, I would flail for several months trying to figure out how to even be productive, right? I think similar when we look at something like machine learning, there's a lot of stuff happening there really fast. I understand the broad strokes, but I can't say that I understand it to any deep degree. I think it's fascinating and exciting the amount of diversity in this world and stuff to learn. Bryan's asked me in the past. It's like, “Hey, if you're going to quit and start a new career and do something different, what would it be?” I think I would probably do something like generative art, right? Essentially, there's folks out there writing these programs to generate art, a little bit of the moral descendant of Demoscene that was I don't know. I wonder was the Demoscene happened, Bryan. When was that? [0:44:19.4] BL: Oh, mid 90s, or early 90s. [0:44:22.4] JB: That’s right. I was never super into that. I don't think I was smart enough. It's crazy stuff. [0:44:27.6] MG: I actually used to write demoscenes. [0:44:28.8] JB: I know you did. I know you did. Okay, so just for those not familiar, the Demoscene was essentially you wrote essentially X86 assembly code to do something cool on screen. It was all generated so that the amount of code was vanishingly small. It was this puzzle/art/technical tour de force type of thing. [0:44:50.8] BL: We wrote trigonometry in a similar – that's literally what we did. [0:44:56.2] JB: I think a lot of that stuff ends up being fun. Stuff that's related to our world, I think about how do we move up the stack and I think a lot of folks are focused on the developer experience, how do we make that easier. I think one of the things through the lens of VMware and Tanzu is looking at how does this stuff start to interface with organizational mechanics? How does the typical enterprise work? How do we actually make sure that we can start delivering a toolset that works with that organization, versus working against the organization? That I think is an interesting area, where it's hard because it involves people. Back-end people like programmers, they love it because they don't have to deal with those pesky people, right? They get to define their interfaces and their interfaces are pure and logical. I think that UI work, UX work, anytime when you deal with people, that's the hardest thing, because you don't get to actually tell them how to think. They tell you how to think and you have to adapt to it, which is actually different from a lot of back-end here in logical type of folks. I think there's an aspect of that that is user experience at the consumer level. There's developer experience and there's a whole class of things, which is maybe organizational experience. How do you interface with the organization, versus just interfacing, whether it's individuals in the developer, or the end-user point of view? I don't know if as an industry, we actually have our heads wrapped around that organizational limits. [0:46:16.6] CC: Well, we have arrived at the end. Makes me so sad, because we could talk for easily two more hours. [0:46:24.8] JB: Yeah, we could definitely keep going. [0:46:26.4] CC: We’re going to bring you back, Joe. Don’t worry. [0:46:28.6] JB: For sure. Anytime. [0:46:29.9] CC: Or do worry. All right, so we are going to release these episodes right after KubeCon. Glad everybody could be here today. Thank you. Make sure to subscribe and follow us on Twitter. Follow us everywhere and suggest episode topics for us. Bye and until next time. [0:46:52.3] JB: Thank you so much. [0:46:52.9] MG: Bye. [0:46:54.1] BL: Bye. Thank you. [END OF EPISODE] [0:46:55.1] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the http://thepodlets.io/ website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Understanding Observability (Ep 4)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 13, 2019 44:34

Welcome to the fourth episode of The Podlets podcast! Today we speak to the topic of observability: what the term means, how it relates to the process of software development, and the importance of investing in a culture of observability. Each of us has a slightly different take on what exactly observability is, but roughly we agree that it is a set of tools that you can use to observe the interactions and behavior of distributed systems. Kris gives some handy analogies to help understand the growing need for observability due to rising scale and complexity. We then look at the three pillars of observability, and what each of these pillars look like in the process of testing and running a program. We also think more about how observability applies to the external problems that might arise in a system. Next up, we cover how implementing observability in teams is a cultural process, and how it is important to have a culture that accepts the necessity of failure and extensive time spend problem-solving in coding. Finally, the conversation shifts to how having a higher culture of observability can do away with the old problem of calling the dinosaur in a team who knows the code backward every time an error crops up. Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Kris Nóva Duffie Cooley Key Points from This Episode: • Duffy and Kris’s different interpretations of observability.• Why we should bake observability into applications before a catastrophic failure.• Observability is becoming more necessary due to scale and complexity.• New infrastructures require new security systems.• Observability is a term for new ways of observing code to catch failures as they happen.• The three pillars of observability: events, metrics, and traceability.• How events, metrics, and traceability play out in an example of a WordPress blog.• Why metrics and events are necessary for observing patterns in problems.• Measuring time series data and how it is managed in a similar way to git deltas.• Why the ephemerality of events in cloud-native architectures urges a new way of thinking.• Countering exterior application issues such as a hard drive getting bumped.• The role of tracing in correlating internal and external issues with a system.• Tracing is about understanding all the bits that are being touched in a problem.• Kubernetes can be broken down into three things: compute, network and storage.• How human experience is a major factor in good observability.• The fact that embracing observability and chaos engineering is a cultural practice.• Understanding observability and chaos testing through the laser metaphor.• The more valuable the application, the higher the need for observability.• The necessity for a cultural turn toward seeing the importance of observability.• Seeming bad at debugging vs convincing teams to implement observability.• The value of having empathy for how the difficulty of software engineering.• Developing more intuition by spending time debugging.• The way automated observability tools can possibly help with developing intuition.• How observability and having common tools removes or normalizes the problem of ‘the guy’ Quotes: “Building software is very hard and complex, so if you are not making mistakes, you either are not human or you are not making enough changes.” — @carlisia [0:33:37] “Observability is just a fancy word for all of the tools to help us solve a problem.” — @krisnova [0:23:09] “You’ll be a better engineer for distributed systems if you are in a culture that is blameless, that gives you tools to experiment, and gives you tools to validate those experiments and come up with new ones.” – @mauilion [0:36:08] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Velero — https://www.velero.ioCloud Native Infrastructure — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309 Distributed Systems Observability — https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40182805-distributed-systems-observability Transcript: EPISODE 04 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:40.5] CC: Hi everyone, welcome back to episode four. Today we’re going to talk about observability. I am Carlisia Campos. Today here on the show with me are Duffy Coolie. [0:00:52.7] DC: How are you doing folks? I’m Duffy Coolie, I’m staff field engineer here at VMware and looking forward to this topic. [0:00:58.9] CC: Also with us is Kris Nova. [0:01:03.2] CN: Hey everyone, I’m Kris Nova. I’m a developer advocate. I code a lot. I hang out in Kubernetes. [0:01:09.7] CC: I don’t want to be left out. I’m an engineer in the open source project called Valero that does backup and recovery for your Kubernetes applications. So, observability, why do we care? [0:01:25.6] KN: That’s the million-dollar question right there honestly. [0:01:28.0] DC: It sure is. [0:01:30.3] KN: I don’t know, I have a lot of thoughts on observability. I feel like it’s one of those words that it’s kind of like dev ops. It depends which day of the week you ask a specific person, what observability means that you’ll get a different answer. [0:01:43.3] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. It seems like it’s one of those very hot topics. I mean, it feels like people often conflate the idea of monitoring and logging of an application with the idea of observability and what that means. I’m looking forward to kind of digging into the details of that. [0:01:59.9] KN: What does observability mean to you Duffy? [0:02:04.0] DC: In my take, observability is a set of tools that can be applied to describe the way that data moves through a distributed system. Whether that data is a particular request or a particular transaction, in this way, you can actually understand the way all of these distributed parts of this system that we’re building are actually interacting. As you can imagine, things like monitoring and metrics are a part of it, right? Like being able to actually understand how the code is operating for this particular piece of the system, it’s definitely a key part of understanding how that system is operating but when we think of it as a big distributed system with terrible network demons in between and lots of other kind of stuff in between. I feel like we need kind of a higher level of context for what’s actually happening between all those things and that’s where I feel like the term observability fits. [0:02:55.5] KN: Year, I think I generally agree with that. I’ve got a few nuances that I like to pick out but I have high opinions but yeah, I mean, I hear a lot about it. I have my own ideas on what it means but like, why do we need it? [0:03:06.2] DC: I want to hear your idea to what it is, how would you define it? [0:03:08.8] KN: I mean, we have an hour to listen to me rant about observability. I mean, basically, okay, I’m an infrastructure engineer. I wrote this book Cloud Native Infrastructure, everything to me is some layer of software running on top of it, infrastructure, and observability to me is, it solves this problem of how do I gain visibility into something that I want to learn more about. I think my favorite analogy for observability, have you all ever been to like you know, like a gas station or a convenience store? On the front door, it’s like a height scale chart, it will say like four feet, five feet, six feet, seven feet. I always wondered what that was for and I remember I went home one day and I googled it and it turns out, that’s actually for, if the place ever gets robbed as the person runs out the front door, you get a free height measurement of how tall they are so you can help identify them later. To me, that’s like the perfect description of observability. It’s like cleverly sneaking and things into your system that can help you with a problem later downstream. [0:04:10.0] DC: I like that. [0:04:11.0] KN: Yeah. [0:04:12.5] CC: Observability is sort of a new term because it’s not necessarily something that I, as a developer would jump in and say, “Gee, my project doesn’t do observability. I need it.” I understand metrics and I understand logging, monitoring. Now I hear observability. Of course I read about it to talk about it on the show and I have been running into this word everywhere but why are people talking about observability? That’s my question. [0:04:45.8] KN: Yeah. Well, I think this kind of goes back to the gas station analogy again, right? What do you do when your metaphorical application gets robbed? What happens in the case of a catastrophic problem and how do you go about preparing yourself the best way possible to have an upper hand at solving that problem? [0:05:04.6] DC: Leah. [0:05:05.2] KN: Right? You know, some guy robbed a store and ran out the front door and we realized, “We have no idea how tall he is, he could be four feet tall or he could be six feet tall.” You know, we learn the hard way that maybe we should start putting markers on the door. I feel like observability is the same thing but I feel like people just kind of wake up and say like, “I need observability. I’m going to go and you know, I need all of these bells and whistles because my application of course is going to break,” and I feel like in a weird way that’s almost a cop out. We should be working on application before we work on preparing for catastrophic failure. [0:05:37.6] CC: Why didn’t I hear the word observability 10 years ago or even five years ago? I think it’s about two years ago. [0:05:45.9] DC: I’ll argue that the term observability is coming up more frequently and it’s certainly a hot topic today because of effectively context, still comes back down to context. When you’re in a situation where your application, you built like a cloud native architecture of your application, you got a bunch of different services that are intercommunicating or maybe all communicating to some put together shared resource. And things are misbehaving, you’re going to need to have the context to be able to understand how it’s breaking or at what point it’s breaking or where in the tangled web that we move is the problem actually occurring and can we measure that at that point? Traditionally like in a monolithic architecture, you're not really looking at that, maybe break over the monolith, you set up a couple of set points, you’re looking for the way particular clip pads work or if you’re on top of the game, you might like instrument your code in such a way that will emit events when particular transactions happen or particular things happen. You’re going to be looking at those events and logs and looking at metrics to figure out how this one application is performing or behaving. With observability, we have to solve that problem across many systems. [0:06:54.2] CC: That is why I put on the shownotes that it has to do something with the idea of cattle versus [inaud]. Because, I’m saying this because Duffy was asking me before we started recording why was that on the show notes. Because correct me if I’m wrong, I think you are going the direction of saying you don’t see, you don’t see the relation but the relation that I was thinking about was exactly what you just said. If I have a monolith, I’m looking at one thing, we’re both looking at one log. I can treat that as my little pad as supposed to when I have many micro services interacting. I can’t even treat anything, if I treated them as badly without that, right? Because I can’t. This is too much. The idea of the reason why observability is necessary sounds to me like that is a problem of scale and complexity. [0:07:46.2] KN: Yeah, I think that explains why we’re just now hearing it too, right? I’m trying to think of another metaphor here. I guess today’s going to be a metaphor day for me. Got it, okay. I just got back from London last week. I had gotten of the tube and I remember I came up to the surface and blinding light is in my eyes and all of a sudden it’s all sign for Scotland Yard and I was like “Wow, I remember this from all the detective sleuth stories of my childhood.” It dawned on me that the entire point of this part of London was there to help people recover from disasters. I thought about why we don’t have Scotland Yard type places anymore and it’s because we have security systems and we have like different things in place that we had to kind of learn the hard way we needed and we had to develop technology to help make that easier for us and I feel like we’re just kind of at that cusp of like our first wave of security cameras. Metaphorical security cameras with observability. We’re at that first wave of, we can instrument our code and we can start building our systems out with this idea of, “I want to be able to view it or observe it over time in the case of trying to learn more about it or debugging a problem.” [0:08:52.1] DC: Yeah. [0:08:52.9] CC: How do people handle – I’m asking this question because truly, I have yet to have this problem for my project that I need to do observability in my project. I need to make sure my project is observable. I mean, other than the bread and butter metrics and logging, that’s what we do at Valero. We don’t do anything further than that. But, I don’t know if those are the things are constitute observability but what Nova just said, my question is, when we want to look at this stuff later but we’re also talking about cattle and this things. Supposedly, your servers are ephemeral. They can go away and go back. How do we look at, how do we observe things if they have gone away? [0:09:41.1] KN: Year. That’s where we get into like, this exciting world of like, how long do we persist our data and which data do we track? And there’s, you know, a lot of schools of thought and a lot of different opinions around what the right solution here is but I think it kind of just boils down to every application and set of concerns is going to be unique and you’re just going to have to give it some thought. [0:10:01.9] CC: Should we talk more about that because that sounds very interesting. [0:10:04.4] KN: Yeah. I mean, I guess we should probably just start off with like, given a simple application, concretely, what does it mean to build out ‘observability’ for that application? [0:10:18.3] DC: There’s this idea of in a book called Distributed Systems Observability by Cindy Sridharan. I’m probably slaughtering her name but she wrote that there’s like these three pillars and the three pillars are events, metrics and traceability or tracing. Events, metrics and tracing. These are the three pillars of observability. If we were going to lay out the way that those things might apply to just any old application like a monolith then we might look at how – [0:10:45.3] KN: Can we just use like a WordPress blog, just like for an example. It’s got a data score, it’s got a thin layer of software and an API. [0:10:53.0] DC: Sure, like a WordPress app. The first thing we try to do is actually figure out what events we would like to get from the application and figure out how the instrument our application such that we’re getting useful data back as far as like the event stream. Frequently I think that – or in my experience, the things that you want to instrument in your application or it calls that your application is going to make that might represent a period of time, right? If it’s going to make a call to an external system, that’s something that you would definitely want to emit an event for if you’re trying to understand you know, where the problems are going sideways, like how long it took to actually make a query against the database in the back of a WordPress blog. It’s a great example, right? [0:11:33.5] KN: Question, you said the word instrumentation. My understanding of instrumentation is there’s kind of a bit of an art to it and you’re actually going in and you're adding like lines of code to your application that on line 13, we say ‘starting transaction’, on line 14, we make an https transaction and on the next line, we have, ‘the event is now over’ and we can sort of see that and discover that we made this https transaction and see where it broke, if it broke at all. Am I thinking about that right? [0:12:05.2] DC: I think you are but what’s interesting about that, the reporting on line 14, right? Where you're actually saying the event is over, right? I think that we end up actually measuring this in both in event stream and also in a metric, right? So that we can actually understand, of the last hundred transactions to the database, you know, are we seeing any increase in the amount of time and the process takes, like are we actually, you know, is this something that we can measure with metrics and understand, like, is this value changing over time? And then from the event perspective, that’s where we start tying in things like, contextually, in this transaction, what happened, right? In this particular event, is there some way that we can correlate the event with perhaps a trace and we’ll talk a little bit more about tracing too but like – so that we can understand, “okay, well, we have” – at 2:00 we see that there is like an incredible amount of latency being introduced when my WordPress blog tries to write to the database and it happens, every day at 2:00. I need to figure out what’s happening there. That’s a great – to even get to the point where I understand it’s happening at 2:00, I need things like metrics and need things like the events, specifically to give me that time correlation to understand, it’s at two. [0:13:18.7] KN: This is where we get into what Carlisia just asked about which was how do we solve this problem of what do we do when it goes away? In the case of our 2 PM database latency. For a lack of a better term, let’s just call it the heartbeat, the 2 PM heartbeat. What happens when the server that we’re experiencing, that latency, mysteriously goes away? Where does that data go and then you look at tools like I know Prometheus does this in elastic search, has capability to do this, but you look at how do we start managing time series data and how do we start tracking that and recording it. It’s a fascinating problem because you don’t actually record 2 PM. To this second and this degree of a second, this thing happened. You record how long it’s been since the previous event. You’re just constantly measuring deltas. It’s the same way that git works. Every time you do a get commit, you don’t’ actually write all 1,000 lines of software, you just write the one line that changed. [0:14:15.6] DC: Yeah. I think you highlight a really – I mean, both of the two of you highlighted a really good point around like this little cattle versus pets thing. This actually is something that I spent a little time with in a previous life and the challenge is that especially in systems like Kubernetes and other systems where you have – perhaps your application is running or being scaled out dynamically or scaled down dynamically based on load. You have all of these ephemeral events. You have all of this events that are from pods or from particular instances of your application that are ephemeral, they’re not going to be long lived. This highlights a kind of a new problem that we have to solve, I think, when we start thinking about cloud native architectures in that we have to be able to correlate that particular application with information that gives us the context to understand, like perhaps, this was this version of this application and these events are related to that particular version of the app. When we made a change, we saw a great reduction in the amount of time it takes to make that database call and we can correlate those new metrics based on the new version of the app and because we don’t have this like, as a long term entity that we can measure, like this isn’t like a single IP and a single piece of software that is not changing. This is any number of instances of our application deployed – like it makes you have to think about this problem fundamentally differently and how you store that data. This is where that cardinality problem that you’re highlighting comes in. [0:15:45.2] KN: Yeah. Okay, I have a question. Open question for the group. What is the scope here? I guess, to like kind of like build on our WordPress analogy. Let’s say that every day at 2 PM we notice there’s this latency and we’ve spent the last two weeks just endlessly digging through our logs and trying to come up with some sort of hypothesis of what’s going on here and we just can’t find anything. Everything we’ve talked about so far has been at the application layer of the stack. Instrumenting our application, debugging our application, making it https request. What should we do, or does observability even care if one of our hard drives is failing every day at 2 PM when the cleaning service comes by and accidentally bumps into it or something? How are we going to start learning about these deeper problems that might exist outside of our application layer which in my experience, those are the problems that really stick with you and really cause a lot of trouble. [0:16:40.0] DC: Yeah, agreed. Or somebody has like scheduled a backup of your database every day at two is what locks the database for a period of time of the backup and you're like “Wait, when did that happen? Why did that happen?” [0:16:51.4] KN: Somebody like commented out a line in the chron tab and then the server got reset and there’s like some magical bash grip somewhere on the server that goes and rewrites the chron tab. Who knows? [0:17:00.9] DC: Yeah, these are the needles in the haystack that we’ve all stumbled upon one way or another. [0:17:05.1] KN: Yeah, does observability, like, are we responsible for instrumenting like the operating system layer, the hardware layer? [0:17:14.0] CC: Isn’t that what monitoring is, like, some sort of testing from the outside, like an external testing that – of course, you only – it gives us the information after the fact, right? The server already died. My application’s already not available so now I know. [0:17:31.8] KN: Yeah. [0:17:32.4] CC: But isn’t monitoring what would address a problem like that? [0:17:36.1] DC: I think it definitely helps. I think what you're digging at Kris is correlation. Being able to actually identify at a particular period of time, what’s happening across our infrastructure, not just to our application. Being able to – and the important part is like how you even got to that time of day? Like, how do you know that this is happening, like, when you're looking for those patterns, how did you get to the point where you knew that it was happening at 2:00. If you know that it’s happening at 2:00 because of the event stream per se, right? That actually gives you a time correlation. Now you can look at, “Okay, well now I have a time and now I need to like, scoot back to like a macro level and see” – [0:18:10.7] KN: Crank it up at 2 PM. [0:18:12.9] DC: Yeah. Globally at 2:00, what’s going on in my world, right? Is there, you know – I know that these are the two entities that are responsible. I know that I have a bunch of pods that are running on this cluster, I know that I have a database that may be external to my cluster or maybe on the cluster. I need to really understand what’s happening in the world around those two entities as it correlates to that period of time to give me enough context to even troubleshoot. [0:18:39.7] CC: How do you do it though? Because I’m still going to go back to the monitoring, I mean, if I’m using external service to ping my service and my service is down, yeah, I’m going to get the timing – right, I can go back and look at the information, the log stream. Would I know that it was because of the server? No. But should I be pinging the server too? Should I ping every layer of the infrastructure? How do people do that? [0:19:05.4] KN: Yeah, that’s kind of what I was eluding to is like, where does observability at the application level stop and systems observability across the entire stack start and what tools do we have and where are the boundaries there? [0:19:20.3] DC: I think this is actually where we start talking about the third pillar that we were referring to earlier which was tracing and the ability to understand from the perspective of a particular transaction across the system. What entities that particular transaction will touch and where it spends its time across that entire transaction so my query – what I was trying to do was actually like, you know, submit a comment on a WordPress blog. If I had a way of implementing tracing through that WordPress blog, I might be able to leave myself little breadcrumbs throughout the entire set of systems and understand, “Well, at what point did I – I mean, where in this particular web transaction am I spending time?” I might see that you know, from the load balancer, I begin my trace ID and that load balancer terminates to this pod and inside of that pod, I can see where I’m spending my time. A little bit of time to kind of load the assets and stuff, a little bit of time for pushing my comments to the database and identifying what that database is, is the important part of that trace. If I understand – I need to know where that traffic is going to go next and how much time I spent in that transaction. You know, again, this is like down to that code layer. We should have some way of actually like leaving us – producing an event that may be related to a particular trace ID so that we can correlate the entire life cycle of that transaction. That unique trace ID across the entire process. [0:20:45.2] KN: Interesting. [0:20:45.7] DC: It helps us narrow the field to understand what all the bits are that are actually being touched that are part of the problem. Otherwise, we’re looking at the whole world and like obviously, that’s a much bigger haystack, right? [0:21:00.4] KN: One of the things that I’ve kind of learned about Kubernetes is as I’ve been like working with Kubernetes and explaining it to people and going down the road and talking and doing public speaking. I found that it’s very easy for users to understand Kubernetes if you break it down into three things. Compute, network and storage. What I’m kind of getting that here is like the application layer is probably going to be more relevant to the compute layer. Storage is going to be where – that’s observability. Storage is going to be more monitoring. That’s going to be what is my system doing, where am I storing my data, and then network is kind of related to tracing, what you’re looking at here, and these aren’t like necessarily one to one but it just kind of have – distribution of concerns here. Am I thinking about that? Kind of the same way you are Duffy? [0:21:42.8] DC: I think you are. I think what I’m trying to get to is like, I’m trying to identify the tools that I need to be able to understand what’s happening at 2:00 and all of the players involved in that, right? For that, I’m actually relying on tools that are pretty normal like the ability to actually monitor all the systems and understand and have like real time stamps and stuff that describes you know, that nodule server or what have you that says that you know, my backup for my SQL database started at 2:00 and ends at 2:30. I’m relying on things like an event stream to say you know, get to give me some context of time like when my problem is happening and I’m relying on things like tracing perhaps just should narrow the field so that I can actually understand what’s happening with this particular transaction and what are the systems that I should be looking at, whether that is – there’s a bunch of time being spent on the network, so what’s going on with the network at 2:00. There’s a bunch of times being spent on persisting data to a database, what’s going on with the database? You know, like, this kinda gives me I think enough context to actually get into troubleshooting mode, right? [0:22:50.2] KN: Yeah and I don’t want to take away from this lovely definition you just dropped on us but I want to take a stab at trying to summarize this. So observability, expands the whole stack. So I mean it is like if you look at the OSI reference model it is going to cover every one of those layers and all it really is just a fancy word for all of the tools to help us solve a problem. Yeah, sorry I am not trying to take away from your definition, right? I want to just simplify it so that like I can grapple it a little bit better. [0:23:22.2] CC: How about people? Does culture factor into it or it is just tools? [0:23:26.8] KN: I think culture is a huge part of it. Pesky humans. [0:23:28.0] DC: Yeah it is. [0:23:29.8] CC: Would this culture be tremendously different from what we get now usually at least with modern companies that doing modern software? [0:23:40.5] KN: I mean I definitely think like – [0:23:41.7] CC: Would it look different? [0:23:42.8] KN: Yeah, I definitely think there’s like – you can always tell. Like somebody once asked, “What is the difference between an SRE and a senior SRE?” And they were like, “patience,” And it is like you can always tell folks who have been burned because they take this stuff extremely seriously and I think that culture, like there is commodity there, like people are willing to pay for it if you can actually do a good job at going from chaotic problem, “I have no idea what is going on.” And making sense of that noise and coming up with a concrete tangible output that humans can take action on, I mean that is huge. [0:24:16.8] DC: Yeah it is. I was recently discussing the ability – in another medium. We were having a conversation around doing chaos testing and I think that this relates. And the interesting thing that came out of that for me was the idea that you know – I spent a pretty good portion of my career teaching people to troubleshoot, which is kind of weird. You know like teaching somebody to have an intuition about the way that a system works and giving them a place to even begin to troubleshoot a particularly complex problem, especially as we start building more and more complex systems, is really a weird thing to try and do. And I think that culturally, when you have embraced technologies like observability and embrace technologies like chaos engineering, I think that culturally you are actually not only enabling your developers, your operators, your SRE’s to experiment and understand how the system breaks at any point, but you are also enabling them to better understand how to troubleshoot and characterize these distributed systems that they are building. So I think that – and if that is a part, if that is a cultural norm within your company, I mean think about how many miles ahead you are of like the other people in your industry, right? You have made it through adopting these technologies. You have enabled your engineering teams, whether they’d be the people who are writing the code, whether they’d be the people who are operating the code, or the people who are just trying to keep the whole system up or provide you feedback to experiment and to develop hypothesis around how the system might break at a particular scale and to test that, right? And giving them the tools with which to actually observe this is critical, you know? Like it is amazing. [0:26:03.5] KN: Yeah, in my mind, again on my metaphor kick again, I think of the bank robber movies where they take dust and blow it into the air then all of a sudden you can see the lasers. Yeah, I’m feeling like that is what is happening here, is we’re kind of purpose – like chaos testing would just be the practice of intentionally breaking the lasers to make sure the security system works and observability is the practice of actually doing something to make those lasers visible so we can see what is going on. [0:26:31.0] CC: So because the two of you spend time with customers, or maybe Duffy more so than Nova, but definitely, I spent zero time. I spent zero. I am curious to know if someone, let’s say an SRE, wants to implement a set of practices that comprise what we are talking about and saying it is observability but they need to get a buy out from other people. How do you suggest they go about doing that? Because they might know how to do it or be willing to learn but they might need to get approval or they need to get a buy out – I am sorry, a buy in from their managers, from their colleagues, you know, there is a benefit and there is a cost. How will somebody present that? I mean we just talked about – I am sorry Nova, definitely just give us a laundry list of benefits but how do you articulate that in a way you prove those benefits are worth the cost and what are the costs? What are the tradeoffs? [0:27:36.4] KN: Yeah, I mean I think this is such a great question because in my career, I have worked the world’s most paranoid software as a service shop where I mean everything we did, we baked like emergency disaster recovery into it, every layer of everything we did, and I have also worked at shops that are like, “No, we ain’t got time for that, like hurry up and get your code moved and pushed to production,” and I mean I think there is pros and cons to each. But I think, you know, as you look at the value you have in your application, you are going to come up with some sort of way of concretely measuring that, of saying like, “This is an application that brings in 500 bucks a month,” or whatever, and depending on that cost or how much your application is worth to you is going to depend on I think how seriously you take it. For instance, a WordPress blog is going to probably not have the same level of observability with concerns than like maybe a bank routing system have. So I think as your application gets more and more valuable your need for observability and your need for these tools is going to go up more. [0:28:37.6] DC: I agree. I think from the perspective of like, how do you convince, maybe an existing engineering culture to make this jump, to introduce these ideas? I think that that is a tricky question because effectively what you are trying to do is kind of enable that cultural shift that we were talking about before, about like, what tools would set up the culture to succeed as they build out these applications and distributed systems that are going to make up or that are going to comprise the basis of what your product is, right? What tool? And getting to that, coming at that from a SRE perspective that needs air cover to be able to actually have those tough conversations with your developers and say, “Look, this is why we do it that way and this is something I can help you do but fundamentally, we need to instrument this code in a way that we can actually observe it and to understand how it is actually operating when we start before we can actually open the front door and let some of that crazy – and let the Internet in,” right? We need to be able to understand how and when the doors fall off and if we are not working with our developers who are more focused on understanding, does this function do what it says on the box? Rather than, is this function implemented in a way that might admit events or metrics, right? This is a completely different set of problems from the developer’s perspective. I have seen a couple of different implementations of how to implement this within an organization and one of them is Facebook’s idea of product engineering or I think it is called product engineering or production engineering, one of the two, and so this idea is that you might have somebody who’s similar in some ways to an SRE. Somebody who understands the infrastructure and understands how to build applications that will reside upon it and is actually embedded with your developer team to say, “You know, before we can legit sign off on this thing, here are the things that this application must have to be able to wire into to enable us to operate this app so that we can observe it and monitor it. Do all the things that we need to do.”And the great part about that is that it means that you are teaming with the developer team, you have some engineering piece that is teaming with the developer team and enabling them to understand why these tools are there and what they’re for and really – and promoting that engagement. [0:30:59.9] CC: And getting to that place is an interesting proposition isn’t it? Because, as a developer, even as a developer, I see the world moving more and more towards developer taking on the ship of the apps and knowing more, more layers of this stack, and if I am a developer and I want to implement, incorporate these practices then I need to convince some one, either a developer, or whoever is in charge of monitoring it and making sure the system is up and running right? [0:31:33.0] KN: Yeah. [0:31:34.3] CC: So one way to go about quantifying the need for that is to say, “Well over the last month we spent X amount of hours trying to find a bug in production,” and that X is a huge number. So you can bring that number and say, “This is how much the number costs in engineering hours,” but on the other hand, you don’t want to be the one to say that it takes you a 100 hours to find one little bug in production, do you? [0:32:06.2] KN: Yeah, I mean I feel like this is why agile teams are so successful because baked into how you do your work is sort of this implicit way of tracking your time and your progress. So at the end of the day, if you do spend a 100 hours of work trying to find a bug, it is sort of like, that is the team’s hours that is not your hours and you sort of get this data for free at the end of every sprint. [0:32:28.1] CC: Yeah. [0:32:28.5] DC: What you brought up is actually another cultural piece of that that I think is a problem. It has to be – I think that frequently we assume there are many – let me put this differently. I have seen companies where in the culture is somewhat damming for people who spend a lot of time trying to troubleshoot something that they wrote and that is a terrible pattern because it means that the people who are out there writing the code, who are just trying to get across the finish line with the thing that needs to be in production, right, have now this incredible pressure on them to not make a mistake and that is not okay. We are all here to make mistakes. That is what we do professionally, is make mistakes and the rest is just the gravy, you know what I mean? And so yeah, it makes me nuts that there are organizations that are like that. I feel like we really just in it and what is awesome about this is I see that narrative raising up within the ecosystem that I, you know, around cloud native architectures and other things like that, is that like, you know, you are hired to do a hard job and if we come down on you for thinking that that is a hard job then we are messing up. You are not messing up. [0:33:37.2] CC: Yeah absolutely. Building software is very hard and complex. So if you are not making mistakes, you either are not human or you are not making enough changes and in today’s world, we still have humans making software instead of robots. We are not there yet but it is a very risky proposition not to be making continuous changes because you will be left behind. [0:34:04.7] KN: Yeah, I feel like there is definitely something to be said about empathy for software engineers. It is very easy to be like, “Oh my gosh you spent a 100 hours looking at this one bug to save 20 dollars, how dare you?” but it is also a lot harder to be like, “Oh you poor thing, you had to dig through a 100 million lines of somebody else’s code in order to find this bug and it took you a 100 hours and you did all of that just to fix this one little bug, how awesome are you?” And I feel like that is where we get into the team dynamic of are we a blame-centric team? Do we try to assign blame to a certain person or do we look at this as a team’s responsibility, like this is our code and poor Carlisia over here had to go dig through this code that hasn’t been touched in 10 years,” or whatever. [0:34:54.6] CC: Another layer to that is that in my experience, I have never done anything in software or looked at any codes or brought up any system that as trivial as the end result was and especially in relation with the time spent, it has never happened that it wasn’t a huge amount of education that I got to reuse in future work. So does that make sense? [0:35:20.2] DC: Yeah and that is what I was referring to is around being able to build up the intuition around how these systems operate like if the longer, the more time you spend in the trenches working on those things, right? If you are enabled leveraging technologies like observability and chaos into the grain to troubleshoot, to come up with a hypothesis about how this would break when this happens, and test it and view the result and come up with a new hypothesis and continue down that path, you will automatically, I mean like, by your nature, build a better intuition yourself around how all of these system operate. It doesn’t matter whether it is the application you are working on or some other application, you are going to be able to build up their intuition for how to understand and characterize systems in general. You’ll be a better engineer for distributed systems if you are in a culture that is blameless that gives you tools to experiment and gives you tools to validate those experiments and come up with new ones, you know? [0:36:21.3] CC: I am going to challenge you and then I am going to agree with you so hang on, okay? So I am going to challenge you, so we are saying that observability, which actually boils down to using automated tools to do all of this work for us that we don’t have to dig in manually on a case by case basis, no that’s wrong? [0:36:43.4] DC: No, I am saying observability is a set of tools that you can use to observe the interactions and behavior of distributed systems. [0:36:53.4] CC: Okay but with automated tools right? [0:36:55.2] DC: The automation piece isn’t really I mean do you want to take this one Kris? [0:36:59.5] KN: Yeah, I mean I think like they certainly can be automated. I just don’t think that there is a hard bit of criteria that says every one needs to be automated. Like there ain’t nothing wrong with SSH-ing into a server and running a debug script or something if you are having a really bad day. [0:37:12.3] CC: Okay but let me go with my theory, just pretend it is because it will sound better. All right, so let us say, not to exclude the option to do it manually too if you want, but let’s say we have these wonderful tools that can automate a bunch of this work for us and we get to look at it from a high level. So what I am thinking is whereas before, if we didn’t have or use those tools or we are not using those tools, we have to do a lot of that work manually. We have to look at a lot more different places and I will challenge you that we develop even more intuition that way. So we are decreasing the level of intuition that we develop potentially by using the tools. Now, I am going to agree with you. It was just a rationale that I had to follow. I agree with you, it definitely helps to develop intuition but it is a better quality of intuition because now you can hold these different pieces in your hand because you are looking at it at this higher level. Because when you look at the details, you look at thing at this view – at least I am like that. It is like, “Okay, can I hold this one thing, it is big already in my head,” and then for me when I switch context and go look at something else, you know what I looked at over there, and it is hard to, really hard to keep track and really wasteful for – it is impossible to keep all of it in your mind, right? And let’s say you have to go through the whole debugging process all over again. If I don’t have notes, it will be like just the first time because I can’t possibly remember. I mean I have been in situations of having to debug different systems and okay, now third time around I am taking notes because the fourth time is just going to be so painful. So having tools that lets us look at things at a higher level I think has the additional benefit of helping us understand the system and hold it together in our heads because okay, we definitely don’t know the little details of how these are happening behind the scene. But how useful is that anyway? I’d much rather know how the whole system works together, points of failure like I can visualize, right? [0:39:30.1] DC: Yeah. [0:39:30.7] KN: I have a question for everyone. Following up on Carlisia’s how she challenged you and then agreed with you, I really want to ask this question because I think Carlisia’s answer is going to be different than Duffy’s and I think that is going to say a lot about the different ways that we are thinking about observability here and it is really fascinating if you think about it. So have either of you worked in a shop before where you had ‘the guy’? You know, that one person who just knew the code base inside and out, he had been around for forever, he was a dinosaur and whatever something went wrong you’re like, “We got to get this guy on the phone,” and he would come in and be like, “Oh it is this one line and this one thing that it would take you six months to figure out but let me just fix this really quick,” bam-bam-bam-bam and production is back online. [0:40:14.1] CC: Oh code base guy, the system admins guy, like something that is not my app but the system broke, you get that person who knew every like could take one second to figure out what the problem was. [0:40:28.9] KN: Have you seen that before though? Like that one person who just have so much tribal knowledge. [0:40:33.3] CC: Yeah, absolutely. [0:40:34.3] KN: Yeah, Duffy what about you? [0:40:36.0] DC: Absolutely. I have both been that guy and seen that guy. [0:40:38.8] CC: I have never been that person. [0:40:40.2] DC: In lots of shops. [0:40:42.4] KN: Well what I am kind of digging at here is I think observability, and I mean this in the nicest way possible to all of our folks at home who are actively playing the role of ‘the guy’, I think observability kind of makes that problem go away, right? [0:40:56.8] DC: I think it normalizes it to your point. I think that it basically gives you – I think you’re onto it. I think that I agree with you but I think that fundamentally what happens is through tooling like chaos engineering, through tooling like observability, you are normalizing what it looks like to teach anybody to be like that person, right? But that is the key takeaway is like, to Carlisia’s point she might – actually, you know Kris and I, I promise that we will approach some complex distributed systems problem fundamentally differently, right? If somebody has a broken Kubernetes cluster, Kris and I are both going to approach that same problem and we will likely both be able to solve that problem but we are going to approach it in different ways and I think that the benefit of having common tooling with which to experiment and understand and observe the behavior of these distributed systems means that, you know, we can normalize what it looks like to be a developer and have a theory about how the system is breaking or would break, and having some way of actually validating that through the use of observability and perhaps chaos engineering depending, and that means that we are turning keys over, turning the keys to the castle over. There is no more bust test. You don’t have to worry about what happens to me at the end of the day. We all have this common receptacle. [0:42:16.7] CC: You could go on vacation. [0:42:18.1] DC: Yeah. [0:42:19.0] CC: No but this is the most excellent point, I am glad you brought it up Nova because what both of you said is absolutely true. I mean, give me a better documentation and I don’t need you anymore because I can be self-sufficient. [0:42:33.2] DC: Exactly. [0:42:34.9] KN: Yeah so when we’re – [0:42:35.5] CC: If you told me to observe where things went wrong and again I go back to that what I said, more and more developers are having to take being asked, I mean some developers are proactively taking on the shift and in other cases they’d been asked to take more ownership of the whole stack and then say from the application level down the stack and, but you gave me tools to observe where things went wrong beyond my code as a developer, I am not going to call the guy. [0:43:07.3] KN: Yeah. [0:43:08.4] CC: So the level of self-sufficient – [0:43:10.3] KN: The guy doesn’t want you to call him. [0:43:12.5] CC: So it provides – and then the decision – benefit, we could say, is provide the engineer an additional level of self-sufficiency. [0:43:22.0] KN: Yeah, I mean teach someone to fish, give someone a fish. [0:43:25.1] CC: Yeah. [0:43:25.6] KN: Yeah. [0:43:26.4] DC: Exactly. All right, well that was a great conversation on observability and we talked about a bunch of different topics. This is Duffy and I had a great time in this session and thanks. [0:43:38.1] CC: Yeah, we are super glad to be here today. Thanks for listening. Come back next week. [0:43:43.4] KN: Thanks for joining everyone and I apologize again to all of our ‘guys’ at home listening. Hopefully we can help you with observability along the way to get everybody’s job a little bit easier. [0:43:53.8] CC: And I want to say you know for the girls, we know that you are all there too. That is just a joke. [0:43:59.9] KN: Oh yeah, I was totally at it for a while. Good show everyone. [0:44:05.3] DC: All right, cheers. [0:44:06.8] KN: Cheers. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:44:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io, where you will find transcripts and show notes. We’ll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

internet building dc events open developing id ip measuring wordpress quotes api metrics storage globally traditionally prometheus duffy tracing vmware gee software development sql kubernetes countering supposedly pesky scotland yard sre valero compute osi cloud native ssh metaphorical observability dc it announcer thank announcer welcome dc all cindy sridharan

Cloud Native Infrastructure (Ep 5)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 13, 2019 51:39

This week on The Podlets Podcast, we talk about cloud native infrastructure. We were interested in discussing this because we’ve spent some time talking about the different ways that people can use cloud native tooling, but we wanted to get to the root of it, such as where code lives and runs and what it means to create cloud native infrastructure. We also have a conversation about the future of administrative roles in the cloud native space, and explain why there will always be a demand for people in this industry. We dive into the expense for companies when developers run their own scripts and use cloud services as required, and provide some pointers on how to keep costs at a minimum. Joining in, you’ll also learn what a well-constructed cloud native environment should look like, which resources to consult, and what infrastructure as code (IaC) really means. We compare containers to virtual machines and then weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of bare metal data centers versus using the cloud. Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • A few perspectives on what cloud native infrastructure means. • Thoughts about the future of admin roles in the cloud native space. • The increasing volume of internet users and the development of new apps daily. • Why people in the infrastructure space will continue to become more valuable. • The cost implications for companies if every developer uses cloud services individually. • The relationships between IaC for cloud native and IaC for the could in general. • Features of a well-constructed cloud native environment. • Being aware that not all clouds are created equal and the problem with certain APIs. • A helpful resource for learning more on this topic: Cloud Native Infrastructure. • Unpacking what IaC is not and how Kubernetes really works. • Reflecting how it was before cloud native infrastructure, including using tools like vSphere. • An explanation of what containers are and how they compare to virtual machines. • Is it worth running bare metal in the clouds age? Weighing up the pros and cons. • Returning to the mainframe and how the cloud almost mimics that idea. • A list of the cloud native infrastructures we use daily. • How you can have your own “private” cloud within your bare metal data center. Quotes: “This isn’t about whether we will have jobs, it’s about how, when we are so outnumbered, do we as this relatively small force in the world handle the demand that is coming, that is already here.” — Duffie Coolie @mauilion [0:07:22] “Not every cloud that you’re going to run into is made the same. There are some clouds that exist of which the API is people. You send a request and a human being interprets your request and makes the changes. That is a big no-no.” — Nicholas Lane @apinick [0:16:19] “If you are in the cloud native workspace you may need 1% of your workforce dedicated to infrastructure, but if you are in the bare metal world, you might need 10 to 20% of your workforce dedicated just to running infrastructure.” — Nicholas Lane @apinick [0:41:03] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: VMware RADIO — https://www.vmware.com/radius/vmware-radio-amplifying-ideas-innovation/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Brandon Phillips on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonphilips Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/Apache Mesos — http://mesos.apache.orgAnsible — https://www.ansible.comTerraform — https://www.terraform.ioXenServer (Citrix Hypervisor) — https://xenserver.orgOpenStack — https://www.openstack.orgRed Hat — https://www.redhat.com/Kris Nova on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kris-novaCloud native Infrastructure — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309Heptio — https://heptio.cloud.vmware.comAWS — https://aws.amazon.comAzure — https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/vSphere — https://www.vmware.com/products/vsphere.htmlCircuit City — https://www.circuitcity.comNewegg — https://www.newegg.comUber —https://www.uber.com/ Lyft — https://www.lyft.com Transcript: EPISODE 05 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.1] NL: Hello and welcome to episode five of The Podlets Podcast, the podcast where we explore cloud native topics one topic at a time. This week, we’re going to the root of everything, money. No, I mean, infrastructure. My name is Nicholas Lane and joining me this week are Carlisia Campos. [0:00:59.2] CC: Hi everybody. [0:01:01.1] NL: And Duffie Cooley. [0:01:02.4] DC: Hey everybody, good to see you again. [0:01:04.6] NL: How have you guys been? Anything new and exciting going on? For me, this week has been really interesting, there’s an internal VMware conference called RADIO where we have a bunch of engineering teams across the entire company, kind of get together and talk about the future of pretty much everything and so, have been kind of sponging that up this week and that’s been really interesting to kind of talking about all the interesting ideas and fascinating new technologies that we’re working on. [0:01:29.8] DC: Awesome. [0:01:30.9] NL: Carlisia? [0:01:31.8] CC: My entire team is at RADIO which is in San Francisco and I’m not. But I’m sort of glad I didn’t have to travel. [0:01:42.8] NL: Yeah, nothing too exciting for me this week. Last week I was on PTO and that was great so this week it has just been kind of getting spun back up and I’m getting back into the swing of things a bit. [0:01:52.3] CC: Were you spun back up with a script? [0:01:57.1] NL: Yeah, I was. [0:01:58.8] CC: With infrastructure I suppose? [0:02:00.5] NL: Yes, absolutely. This week on The Podlets Podcast, we are going to be talking about cloud native infrastructure. Basically, I was interested in talking about this because we’ve spent some time talking about some of the different ways that people can use cloud native tooling but I wanted to kind of get to the root of it. Where does your code live, where does it run, what does it mean to create cloud native infrastructure? Start us off, you know, we’re going to talk about the concept. To me, cloud native infrastructure is basically any infrastructure tool or service that allows you to programmatically create infrastructure and by that I mean like your compute nodes, anything running your application, your networking, software defined networking, storage, Seth, object store, dev sort of thing, you can just spin them up in a programmatical in contract way and then databases as well which is very nice. Then I also kind of lump in anything that’s like a managed service as part of that. Going back to databases if you use like difference and they have their RDS or RDB tooling that provides databases on the fly and then they manage it for you. Those things to me are cloud native infrastructure. Duffy, what do you think? [0:03:19.7] DC: Year, I think it’s definitely one of my favorite topics. I spent a lot of my career working with infrastructure one way or the other, whether that meant racking servers in racks and doing it the old school way and figuring out power budgets and you know, dealing with networking and all of that stuff or whether that meant, finally getting to a point where I have an API and my customer’s going to come to me and say, I need 10 new servers, I can be like, one second. Then run all the script because they have 10 new servers versus you know, having to order the hardware, get the hardware delivered, get the hardware racked. Replace the stuff that was dead on arrival, kind of go through that whole process and yeah. Cloud native infrastructure or infrastructure as a service is definitely near and dear to my heart. [0:03:58.8] CC: How do you feel about if you are an admin? You work from VMware and you are a field engineer now. You’re basically a consultant but if you were back in that role of an admin at a company and you had the company was practicing cloud native infrastructure things. Basically, what we’re talking about is we go back to this theme of self-sufficiency a lot. I think we’re going to be going back to this a lot too, as we go through different topics. Mainly, someone was a server in that environment now, they can run an existing script that maybe you made it for them. But do you have concerns that your job is redundant now that you can just one script can do a lot of your work? [0:04:53.6] NL Yeah, in the field engineering org, we kind of have this mantra that we’re trying to automate ourselves out of a job. I feel like anyone who is like really getting into cloud native infrastructure, that is the path that they’re taking as well. If I were an admin in a world that was like hybrid or anything like that, they had like on prem or bare metal infrastructure and they had cloud native infrastructure. I would be more than ecstatic to take any amount of the administrative work of like spinning up new servers in the cloud native infrastructure. If the people just need somewhere they can go click, I got whatever services I need and they all work together because the cloud makes them work together, awesome. That gives me more time to do other tasks that may be a bit more onerous or less automated. I would be all for it. [0:05:48.8] CC: You’re saying that if you are – because I don’t want the admin people listening to this to stop listening and thinking, screw this. You’re saying, if you’re an admin, there will still be plenty of work for you to do? [0:06:03.8] NL: Year, there’s always stuff to do I think. If not, then I guess maybe it’s time to find somewhere else to go. [0:06:12.1] DC: There was a really interesting presentation that really stuck with me when I was working for CoreOS which is another infrastructure company, it was a presentation by our CTO, his name is Brandon Philips and Brandon put together a presentation around the idea that every single day, there are you know, so many thousand new users of the Internet coming online for the first time. That’s so many thousand people who are like going to be storing their photos there, getting emails, doing all those things that we do in our daily lives with the Internet. That globally, across the whole world, there are only about, I think it was like 250k or 300,000 people that do what we do, that understand the infrastructure at a level that they might even be able to automate it, you know? That work in the IT industry and are able to actually facilitate the creation of those resources on which all of those applications will be hosted, right? This isn’t even taking into account, the number of applications per day that are brought into the Internet or made available to users, right? That in itself is a whole different thing. How many people are putting up new webpages or putting up new content or what have you every single day. Fundamentally, I think that we have to think about the problem in a slightly different way, this isn’t about whether we will have jobs, it’s about how, when we are so outnumbered, how do we as this relatively small force in the world, handle the demand that is coming, that is already here today, right? Those people that are listening, who are working infrastructure today, you’re even more valuable when you think about it in those terms because there just aren’t enough people on the planet today to solve those problems using the tools that we are using today, right? Automation is king and it has been for a long time but it’s not going anywhere, we need the people that we have to be able to actually support much larger numbers or bigger scale of infrastructure than they know how to do today. That’s the problem that we have to solve. [0:08:14.8] NL: Yeah, totally. [0:08:16.2] CC: Looking from the perspective of whoever is paying the bills. I think that in the past, as a developer, you had to request a server to run your app in the test environment and eventually you’ll get it and that would be the server that everybody would use to run against, right? Because you’re the developer in the group and everybody’s developing different features and that one server is what we would use to push out changes to and do some level of manual task or maybe we’ll have a QA person who would do it. That’s one server or one resource or one virtual machine. Now, maybe I’m wrong but as a developer, I think what I’m seeing is I will have access to compute and storage and I’ll run a script and I boot up that resource just for myself. Is that more or less expensive? You know? If every single developer has this facility to speed things up much quicker because we’re not depending on IT and if we have a script. I mean, the reality is not as easy like just, well command and you get it but – If it’s so easy and that’s what everybody is doing, doesn’t it become expensive for the company? [0:09:44.3] NL: It can, I think when cloud native infrastructure really became more popular in the workplace and became more like mainstream, there was a lot of talk about the concept of sticker shock, right? It’s the idea of you had this predictable amount of money that was allocated to your infrastructure before, these things cost this much and their value will degrade over time, right? The server you had in 2005 is not going to be as valuable as the server you buy in 2010 but that might be a refresh cycles like five years or so. But you have this predictable amount of money. Suddenly, you have this script that we’re talking about that can spin up in equivalent resource as one of those servers and if someone just leaves it running, that will run for a long time and so, irresponsible users of the cloud or even just regular users of cloud, it does cost a lot of money to use any of these cloud services or it can cost a lot of money. Yes, there is some concern about the amount of money that these things cost because honestly, as we’re exploring cloud native topics. One thing keeps coming up is that cloud really just means, somebody else’s computer, right? You’re not using the cost of maintenance or the time it takes to maintain things, somebody else is and you’re paying that price upfront instead of doing it on like a yearly basis, right? It’s less predictable and usually a bit more than people are expected, right? But there is value there as well. [0:11:16.0] CC: You’re saying if the user is diligent enough to terminate clusters or the machine, that is how you don’t rack up unnecessary cost? [0:11:26.6] NL: Right For a test, like say you want to spin up your code really quickly and just need to – a quick like setup like networking and compute resources to test out your code and you spin up a small, like a tiny instance somewhere in one of the clouds, test out your code and then kill the instance. That won’t cost hardly anything. It didn’t really cost you much on time either, right? You had this automated process hopefully or had a manual process that isn’t too onerous and you get the resource and the things you needed and you’re good. If you aren’t a good player and you keep it going, that can get very expensive very quickly. Because It’s a number of resources used per hour I think is how most billing happens in the cloud. That can exponentially – I mean, they’re not really exponentially grow but it will increase in time to a value that you are not expecting to see. You get a billing and you’re like holy crap, what is this? [0:12:26.9] DC: I think it’s also – I mean, this is definitely where things like orchestration come in, right? With the level of obstruction that you get from things like Kubernetes or Mesos or some other tools, you’re able to provide access to those resources in a more dynamic way with the expectation and sometimes one of the explicit contract, that work load that you deploy will be deployed on common equipment, allowing for things like Vin packing which is a pretty interesting term when it comes to infrastructure and means that you can think of the fact that like, for a particular cluster. I might have 10 of those VMs that we talk about having high value. I attended to those running and then my goal is to make sure that I have enough consumers of those 10 nodes to be able to get my value out of it and so when I split up the environments, we did a little developer has a main space, right? This gets me the ability to effectively over subscribe those resources that I’m paying for in a way that will reduce the overall cost of ownership or cost of – not ownership, maybe cost of operation for those 10 nodes. Let’s take a step back and go down a like memory lane. [0:13:34.7] NL: When did you first hear about the concept of IAS or cloud native infrastructure or infrastructure as code? Carlisia? [0:13:45.5] CC: I think in the last couple of years, same as pretty much coincided with when I started to – you need to cloud native and Kubernetes. I’m not clear on the difference between the infrastructure as code for cloud native versus infrastructure as code for the cloud in general. Is there anything about cloud native that has different requirements and solutions? Are we just talking about, is the cloud and the same applies for cloud native? [0:14:25.8] NL: Yes, I think that they’re the same thing. Cloud, like infrastructure is code for the cloud is inherently cloud native, right? Cloud native just means that whatever you’re trying to do, leverages the tools and the contracts that a cloud provides. The basic infrastructure as code is basically just how do I use the cloud and that’s – [0:14:52.9] CC: In an automated way. [0:14:54.7] NL: In an automated way or just in a way, right? A properly constructed cloud should have a user interface of some kind, that uses an API, right? A contract to create these machines or create these resources. So that the way that it creates its own resources is the same that you create the resource if you programmatically do it right. Orchestration tool like Ansible or Terraform. The API calls that itself makes and its UI needs to be the same and if we have that then we have a well-constructed cloud native environment. [0:15:32.7] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. I think you know, from the perspective of cloud infrastructure or cloud native infrastructure, the goal is definitely to have – it relies on one of the topics that we covered earlier in a program around the idea of API first or API driven being such an intrinsic quality of any cloud native architecture, right? Because, fundamentally, if we can’t do it programmatically, then we’re kind of stuck in that old world of wrecking servers or going through some human managed process and then we’re right back to the same state that we were in before and there’s no way that we can actually scale our ability to manage these problems because we’re stuck in a place where it’s like one to one rather than one to many. [0:16:15.6] NL: Yeah, those API’s are critical. [0:16:17.4] DC: The API’s are critical. [0:16:18.4] NL: You bring up a good point, reminder of something. Not every cloud that you’re going to run into is made the same. There are some clouds that exist and I’m not going to specifically call them out but there are some clouds that exist that the API is people. Using their request and a human being interprets your request and makes the changes. That is a big no-no. Me no like, no good, my brain stopped. That is a poorly constructed cloud native environment. In fact, I would say it is not a cloud native environment at all, it can barely call itself a cloud and sentence. Duffie, how about you? When was the first time you heard the concept of cloud native infrastructure? [0:17:01.3] DC: I’m going to take this question in a form of like, what was the first programmatic infrastructure of those service that I played with. For me, that was actually like back in the Nicera days when we were virtualizing the network and effectively providing and building an API that would allow you to create network resources and a different target that we were developing for where things like XenServer which the time had a reasonable API that would allow you to create virtual machines but didn’t really have a good virtual network solution. There were also technologies like KVM, the ability to actually use KVM to create virtual machines. Again, with an API and then, although, in KVM, it wasn’t quite the same as an API, that’s kind of where things like OpenStack and those technologies came along and kind of wrapped a lot of the capability of KVM behind a restful API which was awesome. But yeah, I would say, XenServer was the first one and that gave me the ability to – like a command line option with which I could stand up and create virtual machines and give them so many resources and all that stuff. You know, from my perspective, it was the Nicera was the first network API that I actually ever saw and it was also one of the first ones that I worked on which was pretty neat. [0:18:11.8] CC: When was that Duffie? [0:18:13.8] DC: Some time ago. I would say like 2006 maybe? [0:18:17.2] NL: The TVs didn’t have color back then. [0:18:21.0] DC: Hey now. [0:18:25.1] NL: For me, for sort of cloud native infrastructure, it reminded me, it was the open stack days I think it was really when I first heard the phrase like I – infrastructure as a service. At the time, I didn’t even get close to grocking it. I still don’t know if I grock it fully but I was working at Red Hat at the time so this was probably back in like 2012, 2013 and we were starting to leverage OpenStack more and having like this API driven toolset that could like spin up these VMs or instances was really cool to me but it’s something I didn’t really get into using until I got into Kubernetes and specifically Kubernetes on different clouds such as like AWS or AS Ram. We’ll touch on those a little bit later but it was using those and then having like a CLI that had an API that I could reference really easily to spin things up. I was like, holy crap, this is incredible. That must have been around like the 2015, 16 timeframe I think. I think I actually heard the phrase cloud native infrastructure first from our friend Kris Nova’s book, Cloud Native Infrastructure. I think that really helped me wrap my brain around really what it is to have something be like cloud native infrastructure, how the different clouds interact in this way. I thought that was a really handy book, I highly recommend it. Also, well written and interesting read. [0:19:47.7] CC: Yes, I read it back to back and when I joined what I have to, I need to read it again actually. [0:19:53.6] NL: I agree, I need to go back to it. I think we’ve touched on something that we normally do which is like what does this topic mean to us. I think we kind of touched on that a bit but if there’s anything else that you all want to expand upon? Any aspect of infrastructure that we’ve not touched on? [0:20:08.2] CC: Well, I was thinking to say something which is reflects my first encounter with Kubernetes when I joined Heptio when it was started using Kubernetes for the very first time and I had such a misconception of why Kubernetes was. I’m saying what I’m going to say to touch base on what I want to say – I wanted to relate what infrastructure as code is not. [0:20:40.0] NL: That’s’ a very good point actually, I like that. [0:20:42.4] CC: Maybe, what Kubernetes now, I’m not clear what it is I’m going to say. Hang with me. It’s all related. I work from Valero, Valero is out, they run from Kubernetes and so I do have to have Kubernetes running for me to run Valero so we came on my machine or came around on the cloud provider and our own prem just for the pluck. For Kubernetes to run, I need to have a cluster running. Not one instance because I was used to like yeah, I could bring up an instance or an instance or two. I’ve done this before but bringing up a cluster, make sure that everything’s connected. I was like, then this. When I started having to do that, I was thinking. I thought that’s what Kubernetes did. Why do I have to bother with this? Isn’t that what Kubernetes supposed to do, isn’t it like just Kubernetes and all of that gets done? Then I had that realization, you know, that encounter where reality, no, I still have to boot up my infrastructure. That doesn’t go away because we’re doing Kubernetes. Kubernetes, this abstraction called that sits on top of that infrastructure. Now what? Okay, I can do it manually while DJIK has a great episode where Joe goes and installs everything by hand, he does thing like every single thing, right? Every single step that you need to do, hook up the network KP’s. It’s brilliant, it really helps you visualize what happens when all of the stuff, how all the stuff is brought up because ideally, you’re not doing that by hand which is what we’re talking about here. I used for example, cloud formation on AWS with a template that Heptio also has in partnership with AWS, there is a template that you can use to bring up a cluster for Kubernetes and everything’s hooked up, that proper networking piece is there. You have to do that first and then you have Kubernetes installed as part of that template. But the take home lesson for me was that I definitely wanted to do it using some sort of automation because otherwise, I don’t have time for that. [0:23:17.8] DC: Ain’t nobody got time for that, exactly. [0:23:19.4] CC: Ain’t got no time for that. That’s not my job. My job is something different. I’m just boarding these stuff up to test my software. Absolutely very handy and if you put people is not working with Kubernetes yet. I just wanted to clarify that there is a separation and the one thing is having your infrastructure input and then you have installed Kubernetes on top of that and then you know, you might have, your application running in Kubernetes or you can have an external application that interacts with Kubernetes. As an extension of Kubernetes, right? Which is what I – the project that I work on. [0:24:01.0] NL: That’s a good point and that’s something we should dive into and I’m glad that you brought this up actually, that’s a good example of a cloud native application using the cloud native infrastructure. Kubernetes has a pretty good job of that all around and so the idea of like Kubernetes itself is a platform. You have like a platform as a service that’s kind of what you’re talking about which is like, if I spin up. I just need to spin up a Kubernetes and then boom, I have a platform and that comes with the infrastructure part of that. There are more and more to like, of this managed Kubernetes offerings that are coming out that facilitate that function and those are an aspect of cloud native infrastructure. Those are the managed services that I was referring to where the administrators of the cloud are taking it upon themselves to do all that for you and then manage it for you and I think that’s a great offering for people who just don’t want to get into the weeds or don’t want to worry about the management of their application. Some of these like – For instance, databases. These managed services are awesome tool and going back to Kubernetes a little bit as well, it is a great show of how a cloud native application can work with the infrastructure that it’s on. For instance, when Kubernetes, if you spin up a service of type load balancer and it’s connected to a cloud properly, the cloud will create that object inside of itself for you, right? A load balancer in AWS is an ELB, it’s just a load balancer in Azure and I’m not familiar with the other terms that the other clouds use, they will create these things for you. I think that the dopest thing on the planet, that is so cool where I’m just like, this tool over here, I created it I n this thing and it told this other thing how to make that work in reality. [0:25:46.5] DC: That is so cool. Orchestration magic. [0:25:49.8] NL: Yeah, absolutely. [0:25:51.6] DC: I agree, and then, actually, I kind of wanted to make a point on that as well which is that, I think – the way I interpreted your original question, Carlisia was like, “What is the difference perhaps between these different models that I call the infrastructure-esque code versus a plat… you know or infrastructure as a service versus platform as a service versus containers as a service like what differentiates these things and for my part, I feel like it is effectively an evolution of the API like what the right entry point for your consumer is. So in the form, when we consider container orchestration. We consider things like middle this in Kubernetes and technologies like that. We make the assumption that the right entry point for that user is an API in which they can define those things that we want to orchestrate. Those containers or those applications and we are going to provide within the form of that platform capability like you know, service discovery and being able to handle networking and do all of those things for you. So that all you really have to do is to find like what needs to be deployed. And what other services they need to rely on and away you go. Whereas when you look at infrastructure of the service, the entry point is fundamentally different, right? We need to be thinking about what the infrastructure needs to look at like I would might ask an infrastructure as a service API how man machines I have running and what networks they are associated with and how much memory and disk is associated with each of those machines. Whereas if I am interacting with a platform as a service, I might ask whatever the questions about those primitives that are exposed by their platform, how many deployments do I have? What name spaces do I have access to do? How many pods are running right now versus how many I ask that would be running? Those questions capabilities. [0:27:44.6] NL: Very good point and yeah I am glad that we explored that a little bit and cloud native infrastructure is not nothing but it is close to useless without a properly leveraged cloud native application of some kind. [0:27:57.1] DC: These API’s all the way down give you this true flexibility and like the real functionality that you are looking for in cloud because as a developer, I don’t need to care how the networking works or where my storage is coming from or where these things are actually located. What the API does any of these things. I want someone to do it for me and then API does that, success and that is what cloud native structure gets even. Speaking of that, the thing that you don’t care about. What was it like before cloud? What do we have before cloud native infrastructure? The things that come to mind are the things like vSphere. I think vSphere is a bridge between the bare metal world and the cloud native world and that is not to say that vSphere itself is not necessarily cloud native but there are some limitations. [0:28:44.3] CC: What is vSphere? [0:28:46.0] DC: vSphere is a tool that VMware has created a while back. I think it premiered back in 2000, 2000-2001 timeframe and it was a way to predictably create and manage virtual machines. So in virtual machine being a kernel that sits on top of a kernel inside of a piece of hardware. [0:29:11.4] CC: So is vSphere two virtual machines where to Kubernetes is to containers? [0:29:15.9] DC: Not quite the same thing I don’t think because fundamentally, the underlying technologies are very different. Another way of explaining the difference that you have that history is you know, back in the day like 2000, 90s even currently like what we have is we have a layer of people who are involved in dealing with physical hardware. They rack 10 or 20 servers and before we had orchestration and virtualization and any of those things, we would actually be installing an operating system and applications on those servers. Those servers would be webservers and those servers will be database servers and they would be a physical machine dedicated to a single task like a webserver or database. Where vSphere comes in and XenServer and then KVM and those technologies is that we think about this model fundamentally differently instead of thinking about it like one application per physical box. We think about each physical box being able to hold a bunch of these virtual boxes that look like virtual machines. And so now those virtual machines are what we put our application code. I have a virtual machine that is a web server. I have a virtual machine that is a database server. I have that level of abstraction and the benefit of this is that I can get more value out of those hardware boxes than I could before, right? Before I have to buy one box or one application, now I can buy one box for 10 or 20 applications. When we take that to the next level, when we get to container orchestration. We realized, “You know what? Maybe I don’t need the full abstraction of a machine. I just need enough of an abstraction to give me enough, just enough isolation back and forth between those applications such that they have their own file system but they can share the kernel but they have their own network” but they can share the physical network that we have enough isolation between them but they can’t interact with each other except for when intent is present, right? That we have that sort of level of abstraction. You can see that this is a much more granular level of abstraction and the benefit of that is that we are not actually trying to create a virtual machine anymore. We are just trying to effectively isolate processes in a Linux kernel and so instead of 20 or maybe 30 VMs per physical box, I can get a 110 process all day long you know on a physical box and again, this takes us back to that concept that I mentioned earlier around bin packing. When we are talking about infrastructure, we have been on this eternal quest to make the most of what we have to make the most of that infrastructure. You know, how do we actually – what tools and tooling that we need to be able to see the most efficiency for the dollar that we spend on that hardware? [0:32:01.4] CC: That is simultaneously a great explanation of container and how containers compare with virtual machines, bravo. [0:32:11.6] DC: That was really low crap idea that was great. [0:32:14.0] CC: Now explain vSphere please I still don’t understand it. I don’t know what it does. [0:32:19.0] NL: So vSphere is the one that creates the many virtual machines on top of a physical machine. It gives you the capability of having really good isolation between these virtual machines and inside of these virtual machines you feel like you have like a metal box but it is not a metal box it is just a process running on a metal box. [0:32:35.3] CC: All right, so it is a system that holds multiple virtual machines inside the same machine. [0:32:41.8] NL: Yeah, so think of it in the cloud native like infrastructure world, vSphere is essentially the API or you could think of it as the cloud itself, which is in the sense an AWS but for your datacenter. The difference being that there isn’t a particularly useful API that vSphere exposes so it makes it harder for people to programmatically leverage, which makes it difficult for me to say like vSphere is a cloud native app like tool. It is a great tool and it has worked wonders and still works wonders for a lot of companies throughout the years but I would hesitate to lump into a cloud native functionality. So prior to cloud native or infrastructures and service, we had these tools like vSphere, which allowed us to make smaller and smaller VMs or smaller and smaller compute resources on a larger compute resource and going back to something, we’re talking about containers and how you spin up these processes. Prior to things that containers and in this world of VM’s a lot of times what you do is you would create a VM that had your application already installed into it. It is burnt into the image so that when that VM stood up it would spin up that process. So that would be the way that you would start processes. The other way would be through orchestration tools similar to Ansible but they existed right or Ansible. That essentially just ran SSH on a number of servers to startup tools like these processes and that is how you’d get distributed systems prior to things like cloud native and containers. [0:34:20.6] CC: Makes sense. [0:34:21.6] NL: And so before we had vSphere we already had XenServer. Before we had virtual machine automation, which is what these tools are, virtual machine automation we had bare metal. We just had joes like Duffie and me cutting our hands on rack equipment. A server was never installed properly unless my blood is on it essentially because they are heavy and it is all metal and it sharpens some capacity and so you would inevitably squash a hand or something. And so you’d rack up the server and then you’d plug in all the things, plug in all the plugs and then set it up manually and then it is good to go and then someone can use it at will or in a logical manner hopefully and that is what we had to do before. It’s like, “Oh I need a new compute resource” okay well, let us call Circuit City or whoever, let us call Newegg and get a new server in and there you go” and then there is a process for that and yeah I think, I don’t know I’m dying of blood loss anymore. [0:35:22.6] CC: And still a lot of companies are using bare metal as a matter of course, which brings up another question, if one would want to ask, which is, is it worth it these days to run bare metal if you have the clouds, right? One example is we see companies like Uber, Lyft, all of these super high volume companies using public clouds, which is to say paying another company for all the data, traffic of data, storage of data in computes and security and everything. And you know one could say, you would save a ton of money to have that in house but using bare metal and other people would say there is no way that this costs so much to host all of that. [0:36:29.1] NL: I would say it really depends on the environment. So usually I think that if a company is using only cloud native resources to begin with, it is hard to make the transition into bare metal because you are used to these tools being in place. A company that is more familiar like they came from a bare metal background and moved to cloud, they may leverage both in a hybrid fashion well because they should have tooling or they can now create tooling so that they can make it so that their bare metal environment can mimic the functionality of the cloud native platform, it really depends on the company and also the need of security and data retention and all of these thing to have like if you need this granularity of control bare metal might be a better approach because of you need to make sure that your data doesn’t leave your company in a specific way putting it on somebody else’s computer probably isn’t the best way to handle that. So there is a balancing act of how much resources are you using in the cloud and how are you using the cloud and what does that cost look like versus what does it cost to run a data center to like have the physical real estate and then have like run the electricity VH fact, people’s jobs like their salaries specifically to manage that location and your compute and network resources and all of these things. That is a question that each company will have to ask. There is normally like hard and fast answer but many smaller companies something like the cloud is better because you don’t have to like think of all these other costs associated with running your application. [0:38:04.2] CC: But then if you are a small company. I mean if you are a small company it is a no brainer. It makes sense for you to go to the clouds but then you said that it is hard to transition from the clouds to bare metal. [0:38:17.3] NL: It can and it really depends on the people that you have working for you. Like if the people you have working for you are good and creating automation and are good and managing infrastructure of any kind, it shouldn’t be too bad but as we’re moving more and more into a cloud focused world, I wonder if those people are going to start going away. [0:38:38.8] CC: For people who are just listening on the podcast, Duffie was heavily nodding as Nick was saying that. [0:38:46.5] DC: I was. I do, I completely agree with the statement that it depends on the people that you have, right? And fundamentally I think the point I would add to this is that Uber or a company like Uber or a company like Lyft, how many people do they employ that are focused on infrastructure, right? And I don’t know the answer to this question but I am positioning it, right? And so, if we assume that they have – that this is a pretty hot market for people who understand infrastructure. So they are not going to have a ton of them, so what specific problems do they want those people that they employ that are focused on infrastructure to solve right? And we are thinking about this as a scale problem. I have 10 people that are going to manage the infrastructure for all of the applications that Uber has, maybe have 20 people but it is going to be a percentage of the people compared to the number of people that I have maybe developing for those applications or for marketing or for within the company. I am going to have, I am going to be, I am going to quickly find myself off balance and then the number of applications that I need to actually support that I need to operationalize to be able to get to be deployed, right? Versus the number of people that I have doing the infrastructure work to provide that base layer for which problems in application will be deployed, right? I look around in the market and I see things like orchestration. I see things like Kubernetes and Mezos and technologies like that. That can provide kind of a multiplier or even AWS or Azure or GCP. I have these things act as a multiplier for those 10 infrastructure pull that I have, right? Because no – they are not looking at trying to figure out how to store it, you know get this data. They are not worried about data centers, they are not worried about servers, they are not worried about networking, right? They can actually have ten people that are decent at infrastructure that can expand, that can spin up very large amounts of infrastructure to satisfy the developing and operational need of a company the size of Uber reasonably. But if we had to go back to a place where we had to do all of that in the physical world like rack those servers, deal with the power, deal with the cool low space, deal with all the cabling and all of that stuff, 10 people are probably not enough. [0:40:58.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely. I put into numbers like if you are in the cloud native workspace you may need 1% of your workforce dedicated to infrastructure, but if you are in the bare metal world, you might need 10 to 20% of your workforce dedicated just to running infrastructure. because the overtly overhead of people’s work is so much greater and a lot of it is focused on things that are tangible instead of things that are fundamental like automation, right? So those 1% or Uber if I am pulling this number totally out of nowhere but if that one percent, their job is to usually focus around automating the allocation of resources and figuring out like the tools that they can use to better leverage those clouds. In the bare metal environment, those people’s jobs are more like, “Oh crap, suddenly we are like 90 degrees in the data center in San Jose, what is going on?” and then having someone go out there and figuring out what physical problem is going on. It is like their day to day lives and something I want to touch on really quickly as well with bare metal, prior to bare metal we had something kind of interesting that we were able to leverage from an infrastructure standpoint and that is mainframes and we are actually going back a little bit to the mainframe idea but the idea of a mainframe, it is essentially it is almost like a cloud native technology but not really. So instead of you using whatever like you are able to spin up X number of resources and networking and make that work. With the mainframe at work is that everyone use the same compute resource. It was just one giant compute resource. There is no networking native because everyone is connected with the same resource and they would just do whatever they needed, write their code, run it and then be done with it and then come off and it was a really interesting idea I think where the cloud almost mimics a mainframe idea where everyone just connects to the cloud. Does whatever they need and then comes off but at a different scale and yeah, Duffie do you have any thoughts on that? [0:43:05.4] DC: Yeah, I agree with your point. I think it is interesting to go back to mainframe days and I think from the perspective of like what a mainframe is versus like what the idea of a cluster in those sorts of things are is that it is kind of like the domain of what you’re looking at. Mainframe considers everything to be within the same physical domain whereas like when you start getting into the larger architectures or some of the more scalable architectures you find that just like any distributed system we are spreading that work across a number of physical nodes. And so we think about it fundamentally differently but it is interesting the parallels between what we do, the works that we are doing today versus what we are doing in maintain times. [0:43:43.4] NL: Yeah, cool. I think we are getting close to a wrap up time but something that I wanted to touch on rather quickly, we have mentioned these things by names but I want to go over some of like the cloud native infrastructures that we use on a day to day basis. So something that we don’t mention them before but Amazon’s AWS is pretty much the number one cloud, I’m pretty sure, right? That is the most number of users and they have a really well structured API. A really good seal eye, peace and gooey, sometimes there is some problems with it and it is the thing that people think of when they think cloud native infrastructure. Going back to that point again, I think that AWS was agreed, AWS is one of the largest cloud providers and has certainly the most adoption as an infrastructure for cloud native infrastructure and it is really interesting to see a number of solutions out there. IBM has one, GCP, Azure, there are a lot of other solutions out there now. That are really focused on trying to follow the same, it could be not the same exact patterns that AWS has but certainly providing this consistent API for all of the same resources or for all of the same services serving and maybe some differentiating services as well. So it is yeah, you could definitely tell it is sort of like for all the leader. You can definitely tell that AWS stumbled onto a really great solution there and that all of the other cloud providers are jumping on board trying to get a piece of that as well. [0:45:07.0] DC: Yep. [0:45:07.8] NL: And also something we can touch on a little bit as well but from a cloud native infrastructure standpoint, it isn’t wrong to say that a bare metal data center can be a cloud native infrastructure. As long as you have the tooling in place, you can have your own cloud native infrastructure, your own private cloud essentially and I know that private cloud doesn’t actually make any sense. That is not how cloud works but you can have a cloud native infrastructure in your own data center but it takes a lot of work. And it takes a lot of management but it isn’t something that exists solely in the realm of Amazon, IBM, Google or Microsoft and I can’t remember the other names, you know the ones that are running as well. [0:45:46.5] DC: Yeah agreed and actually one of the questions you asked, Carlisia, earlier that I didn’t get a chance to answer was do you think it is worth running bare metal today and in my opinion the answer will always be yes, right? Especially as we think about like it is a line that we draw in the sand is container isolation or container orchestration, then there will always be a good reason to run on bare metal to basically expose resources that are available to us against a single bare metal instance. Things like GPU’s or other physical resources like that or maybe we just need really, really fast disk and we want to make sure that we like provide those containers to access to SSDs underlying and there is technology certainly introduced by VMware that expose real hardware from the underlying hype riser up to the virtual machine where these particular containers might run but you know the question I think you – I always come back to the idea that when thinking about those levels of abstraction that provide access to resources like GPU’s and those sorts of things, you have to consider that simplicity is king here, right? As we think about the different fault domains or the failure domains as we are coming up with these sorts of infrastructures, we have to think about what would it look like when they fail or how they fail or how we actually go about allocating those resources for ticket of the machines and that is why I think that bare metal and technologies like that are not going away. I think they will always be around but to the next point and I think as we covered pretty thoroughly in this episode having an API between me and the infrastructure is not something I am willing to give up. I need that to be able to actually to solve my problems at scale even reasonable scale. [0:47:26.4] NL: Yeah, you mean you don’t want to go back to the battle days of around tell netting into a juniper switch and Telnet – setting up your IP – not IP tables it was your IP comp commands. [0:47:39.9] DC: Did you just say Telnet? [0:47:41.8] NL: I said Telnet yeah or serial, serial connect into it. [0:47:46.8] DC: Nice, yeah. [0:47:48.6] NL: All right, I think that pretty much covers it from a cloud native infrastructure. Do you all have any finishing thoughts on the topic? [0:47:54.9] CC: No, this was great. Very informative. [0:47:58.1] DC: Yeah, I had a great time. This is a topic that I very much enjoy. It is things like Kubernetes and the cloud native infrastructure that we exist in is always what I wanted us to get to. When I was in university this was I’m like, “Oh man, someday we are going to live in a world with virtual machines” and I didn’t even have the idea of containers but people can real easily to play with applications like I was amazed that we weren’t there yet and I am so happy to be in this world now. Not to say that I think we can stop and we need to stop improving, of course not. We are not at the end of the journey by far but I am so happy we’re at where we are at right now. [0:48:34.2] CC: As a developer I have to say I am too and I had this thought in my mind as we are having this conversation that I am so happy too that we are where we are and I think well obviously not everybody is there yet but as people start practicing the cloud native development they will come to realize what is it that we are talking about. I mean I said before, I remember the days when for me to get access to a server, I had to file a ticket, wait for somebody’s approval. Maybe I won’t get an approval and when I say me, I mean my team or one of us would do the request and see that. Then you had that server and everybody was pushing to the server like one the main version of our app would maybe run like every day we will get a new fresh copy. The way it is now, I don’t have to depend on anyone and yes, it is a little bit of work to have to run this choreo to put up the clusters but it is so good that is not for me. [0:49:48.6] DC: Yeah, exactly. [0:49:49.7] CC: I am selfish that way. No seriously, I don’t have to wait for a code to merge and be pushed. It is my code that is right there sitting on my computer. I am pushing it to the clouds, boom, I can test it. Sometimes I can test it on my machine but some things I can’t. So when I am doing volume or I have to push it to the cloud provider is amazing. It is so, I don’t know, I feel very autonomous and that makes me very happy. [0:50:18.7] NL: I totally agree for that exact reason like testing things out maybe something isn’t ready for somebody else to see. It is not ready for prime time. So I need something really quick to test it out but also for me, I am the avatar of unwitting chaos meaning basically everything I touch will eventually blow up. So it is also nice that whatever I do that’s weird isn’t going to affect anybody else either and that is great. Blast radius is amazing. All right, so I think that pretty much wraps it up for a cloud native infrastructure episode. I had an awesome time. This is always fun so please send us your concepts and ideas in the GitHub issue tracker. You can see our existing episode and suggestions and you can add your own at github.com/heptio/thecubelets and go to the issues tab and file a new issue or see what is already there. All right, we’ll see you next time. [0:51:09.9] DC: Thank you. [0:51:10.8] CC: Thank you, bye. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:51:13.9] KN: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io website, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

amazon google internet san francisco speaking radio microsoft uber reflecting cloud hang ibm ip infrastructure automation unpacking cto quotes blast san jose lyft api ui linux aws github apis weighing vm duffy qa azure versus vmware ssd pto gpu kp fundamentally software development red hat kubernetes rds el b vh valero iac orchestration terraform cli ias gcp cloud native vms ssh mainframe ansible circuit city openstack because it newegg kvm brandon phillips vsphere mesos coreos telnet rdb heptio duffie apache mesos announcer welcome

Why (API) Contracts Are Important (Ep 3)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 13, 2019 36:14

In this episode of The Podlets Podcast, we are diving into contracts and some of the building blocks of the Cloud-Native application. The focus is on the importance of contracts and how API's help us and fit into the cloud native space. We start off by considering the role of the API at the center of a project and some definitions of what we consider to be an API in this sense. This question of API-first development sheds some light onto Kubernetes and what necessitated its birth. We also get into picking appropriate architecture according to the work at hand, Kubernetes' declarative nature and how micro-services aid the problems often experienced in more monolithic work. The conversation also covers some of these particular issues, while considering possible benefits of the monolith development structure. We talk about company structures, Conway's Law and best practices for avoiding the pitfalls of these, so for all this and a whole lot more on the subject of API's and contracts, listen in with us, today! Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback and episode suggestions: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Patrick Barker Key Points From This Episode: • Reasons that it is critical to start with APIs at the center. • Building out the user interface and how the steps in the process fit together. • Picking the way to approach your design based on the specifics of that job. • A discussion of what we consider to qualify as an API in the cloud-native space. • The benefit of public APIs and more transparent understanding. • Comparing the declarative nature of Kubernetes with more imperative models. • Creating and accepting pods, querying APIs and the cycle of Kubernetes. • The huge impact of the declarative model and correlation to other steps forward. • The power of the list and watch pattern in Kubernetes. • Discipline and making sure things are not misplaced with monoliths.• How micro-services goes a long way to eradicate some of the confusion that arises in monoliths. • Counteracting issues that arise out of a company's own architecture. • The care that is needed as soon as there is any networking between services. • Considering the handling of an API's lifecycle through its changes. • Independently deploying outside of the monolith model and the dangers to a system.• Making a service a consumer of a centralized API and flipping the model. Quotes: “Whether that contract is represented by an API or whether that contract is represented by a data model, it’s critical that you have some way of actually defining exactly what that is.” — @mauilion [0:05:27] “When you just look at the data model and the concepts, you focus on those first, you have a tendency to decompose the problem.” — @pbarkerco [0:05:48] “It takes a lot of discipline to really build an API first and to focus on those pieces first. It’s so tempting to go right to the UI. Because you get these immediate results.” — @pbarkerco [0:06:57] “What I’m saying is, you shouldn’t do one just because you don’t know how to do the others, you should really look into what will serve you better.” — @carlisia [0:07:19] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Nicera — https://www.nicera.co.jp/ Swagger — https://swagger.io/tools/swagger-ui/ Jeff Bezos — https://www.forbes.com/profile/jeff-bezos/ AWS — https://aws.amazon.com/ Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/ Go Language — https://golang.org/ Hacker Noon — https://hackernoon.com/ Kafka — https://kafka.apache.org/ etcd — https://etcd.io/ Conway’s Law — https://medium.com/better-practices/how-to-dissolve-communication-barriers-in-your-api-development-organization-3347179b4ecc Java — https://www.java.com/ Transcript: EPISODE 03 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.2] D: Good afternoon everybody, my name is Duffy and I’m back with you this week. We also have Josh and Carlisia and a new member of our cast, Patrick Barker. [0:00:49.4] PB: Hey, I’m Patrick, I’m an upstream contributor to Kubernetes. I do a lot of stuff around auditing. [0:00:54.7] CC: Glad to be here. What are we going to talk about today? [0:00:57.5] D: This week, we’re going to talk about some of the building blocks of a cloud native application. This week we’re going to kind of focus on contracts and how API’s kind of help us and why they’re important to cloud native ecosystem. Usually, with these episodes, we start talking about the problem first and then we kind of dig into why this particular solution, something like a contract or an API is important. And so, to kind of kick that of, let’s talk about maybe this idea of API-first development and why that’s important. I know that Josh and Patrick both and Carlisia have all done some very interesting work in this space as far as developing your applications with that kind of a model in mind. Let’s open the floor. [0:01:34.1] PB: It’s critical to build API-centric. When you don’t build API-centric, most commonly, you’ll see a cross ecosystem building UI centric, it’s very tempting to do this sort of thing because UI’s are visually enticing and they’re kind of eye candy. But when you don’t go to API-centric and you go that direction, you kind of miss the majority of use cases down the line which are often around an SCK, just ended up being more often than not the flows that are the most useful to people but they’re kind of hard to see it to be getting. I think going and saying we’re building a product API-first is really saying, we understand that this is going to happen in the future and we’re making this a principle early, we’re going to enforce these patterns early, so that we develop a complete product that could be used in many fashions. [0:02:19.6] J: I’ve seen some of that in the past as well working for a company called Nicera, which is a network virtualization company. We really focused on providing an API that would be between you and your network infrastructure and I remember that being really critical that we define effectively what would be the entire public API for that product out in front and then later on, we figured out what obviously to learn this semantics of that sort, to be able to build a mental model around what that API might be, that’s where the UI piece comes in. That was an interesting experiment and like, we ended up actually kind of creating what was the kind of creating what was kind of the – an early version of the Swagger UI in which you basically had a UI that would allow you to explore and introspect and play with, all of those different API objects but it wasn’t a UI in the sense that you know, it had like a constrained user story that was trying to be defined, that was my first experience where I was working with a product that had an API-first model. [0:03:17.0] CC: I had to warm up my brain, I think about why do we build API’s to begin with before I could think why API-first is of a benefit and where the benefits are. And I actually looked up something today and it’s this Jeff Bezos mandate, I had seen this before, right? I mean, why do we view the API’s? API what you’re talking about is data transfer, right? Taking data from over here and sending it over there or you’re making that available so somebody can fetch it. It’s communication. Why do we build API? To make it easier to do that so you can automate, you can expose it, you can gate it with some security, right? Authentication, all of those things and with every increasing amount of data, this becomes more and more relevant and I think when Patrick was saying, when you do it API first, you’re absolutely focusing on making it all of those characteristics a priority, making that work well. If you want to make it pretty, okay, you can take that data in. Transforming some other way to make your presentation pretty, to display on the mobile device or whatever. [0:04:26.4] PB: Yeah, I think another thing with inserting the API design upfront in the software development lifecycle, at least in my experience has been – it allows you to sort of gather feedback from who your consumers will be early on before you worry about the intricacies of all the implementation details, right? I guess with Nicera’s instant stuff, I wonder when you all made that contract, were you pushing out a Swagger UI or just general API documentation before you had actually implemented the underlying pieces or did that all happen together? [0:04:58.1] D: With an API-first, we didn’t build out the UI until after the fact so even to the point where we would define a new object in that API, like a distributed logical router for example. We would actually define that API first and we would have test plants for it and all of that stuff and t hen we would surface it in the UI part of it and that’s a great point. I will say that it is probably to your benefit in the long run to define what all of the things that you’re going to be concerned with are out front. And if you can do that tin a contractual basis, whether that contract is represented by an API or whether that contract is represented by a data model, it’s critical that you have some way of actually defining exactly what that is so that you can also support things like versioning and being able to actually modify that contract as you move forward. [0:05:45.0] PB: I think another important piece here, too, is when you just look at the data model and the concepts, you focus on those first, you have a tendency to more decompose the problem, right? You start to look at things and you break it down better into individual pieces that combine better and you end up with more use cases and you end up with a more useable API. [0:06:03.2] D: That’s a good point. Yeah, I think one of the key parts of this contract is kind of like what you’re trying to solve and it’s always important, you know? I think that, when I talk about API-first development, it is totally kind of in line with that, you have to kind of think about what all the use cases are and if you’re trying to develop a contract that might satisfy multiple use cases, then you get this great benefit of thinking of it as you can kind of collapse a lot of the functionality down into a more composable API, rather than having to solve each individual use cases and kind of a myopic way. [0:06:34.5] CC: Yeah, it’s the concept of reusability, having the ability of making things composable, reusable. [0:06:40.7] D: I think we probably all seen UI’s that gets stuck in exactly that pattern, to Patrick’s point. They try to solve the user story for the UI and then on the backend, you’re like, why do we have two different data models for the same object, it doesn’t make sense. We have definitely seen that before. [0:06:57.2] PB: Yeah, I’ve seen that more times than not, it takes a lot of discipline to really build a UI or an API, you know, first to focus on those pieces first – it’s so tempting to go right to the UI because you get these immediate results and everyone’s like – you really need to bring that back, it takes discipline to focus on the concepts first but it’s just so important to do. [0:07:19.5] CC: I guess it really depends on what you are doing too. I can see all kinds of benefits for any kind of approach. But I guess, one thing to highlight is that different ways of doing it, you can do a UI-first, presentation first, you can do an API-first and you can do a model-first so those are three different ways to approach the design and then you have to think well, what I’m saying is, you shouldn’t do one just because you don’t know how to do the others, you should really look into what will serve you better. [0:07:49.4] J: Yeah, with a lot of this talk about API’s and contracts, obviously in software, there’s many levels of contracts we potentially work on, right? There’s the higher level, potential UI stuff and sometimes there’s a lower level pieces with code. Perhaps if you all think it’s a good idea, we could start with talking about what we consider to be an API in the cloud native space and what we’re referring to. A lot of the API’s we’ve described so far, if I heard everyone correctly, they sounded like they were more so API, as describing perhaps a web service of sorts, is that fair? [0:08:18.8] PB: That’s an interesting point to bring up. I’m definitely describing the consumption model of a particular service. I’m referring to that contract as an infrastructure guy, I want to be able to consume an API that will allow me to model or create infrastructure. I’m thinking of it from that perspective. If AWS didn’t have an API, I probably wouldn’t have adopted it, like the UI is not enough to do this job, either, like I need something that I could tie to better abstractions, things like terraform and stuff like that. I’m definitely kind of picturing it from that perspective. But I will add one other interesting point to this which is that in some cases, to Josh’s point, these things are broken up into public and private API’s, that might be kind of interesting to dig into. Why you would model it that way. There are certainly different interactions between composed services that you’re going to have to solve for. It’s an interesting point. [0:09:10.9] CC: Let’s hold that thought for a second. We are acknowledging that there are public and private API’s and we could talk about why their services work there. Other flavors of API’s also, you can have for example, a web service type of API and you can have a command line API, right? You can see a line on top of a web service API which is the crazy like, come to mind, Kubernetes but they have different shapes and different flavors even though they are accessing pretty much the same functionality. You know, of course, they have different purposes and you have to see a light and another one, yet, is the library so in this case, you see the calls to library which calls the web service API but like Duffy is saying, it’s critical sometimes to be able to have this different entry points because each one has its different advantages like a lot of times, it’s way faster to do things on the command line than it is to be a UI interface on the web that would access that web API which basically, you do want to have. Either your Y interface or CLA interface for that. [0:10:21.5] PB: What’s interesting about Kubernetes too and what I think they kind of introduced and someone could correct me if I’m wrong but is this kid of concept of a core generative type and in Kubernetes, it ends up being this [inaudible]. From the [inaudible], you’re generating out the web API and the CLI and the SCK and they all just come from this one place, it’s all code gen out of that. Kubernetes is really the first place I’ve seen do that but it’s really impressive model because you end up with this nice congruence across all your interfaces. It just makes the product really rockable, you can understand the concepts better because everywhere you go, you end up with the same things and you’re interacting with them in the same way. [0:11:00.3] D: Which is kind of the defining of type interface that Kubernetes relates to, right? [0:11:04.6] PB: Obviously, Kubernetes is incredibly declarative and we could talk a bit about declarative versus imperative, almost entirely declarative. You end up with kind of a nice, neat clear model which goes out to YAML and you end up a pretty clean interface. [0:11:19.7] D: If we’re going to talk about just the API as it could be consumed by other things. I think we’re kind of talking a little bit about the forward facing API, this is one of those things that I think Kubernetes does differently than pretty much any other model that I’ve seen. In Kubernetes, there are no hidden API’s, there’s not private API. Everything is exposed all the time which is fascinating. Because it means that the contract has to be solid for every consumer, not just the ones that are public but also anything that’s built on the back end of Kubernetes, the Kublet, controller manager, all of these pieces are going to be accessing the very same API that the user does. I’ve never seen another application built this way. In most applications, what I see is actually that they might define an API between particular services that you might have a contract between those particular services. Because this is literally — to Carlisia’s point, in most of the models that I’ve seen API’s are contract written, this is about how do I get data or consume data or interact with data, between two services and so there might be a contract between that service and all of its consumers, rather than between the course or within all of the consumers. [0:12:21.7] D: Like you said, Kubernetes is the first thing I’ve seen that does that. I’m pulling an API right now, there’s a strong push of internal API’s for it. But we’re building on top a Kubernetes product and it’s so interesting how they’ve been able to do that, where literally every API is public and it works well, there really aren't issues with it and I think it actually creates a better understanding of the underlying system and more people can probably contribute because of that. [0:12:45.8] J: On that front, I hope this is a good segue but I think it would be really interesting to talk about that point you made Patrick, around declarative versus imperative and how the API we’re discussing right now with Kubernetes in particular, it’s almost entirely declarative. Could you maybe expand on that a bit and compare the two? [0:13:00.8] PB: It’s interesting thing that Kubernetes has really brought to the forefront – I don’t know if there’d be another notable declarative API be terraform. This notion of you just declare state within a file and in some capacity, you just apply that up to a server and then that state is acted on by a controller and it brings us straight to fruition. I mean, that’s almost indicative of Kubernetes at this point I think. It’s so ingrained into the product and it’s one of the first things to kind of do that and that it’s almost what you think of when you think of Kubernetes. And with the advent of CRD’s and what not, that’s now, they want to be extended out to really in the use case you would have, that would fit this declarative pattern of just declaring to say which it turns out there’s a ton of use cases and that’s incredibly useful. Now, they’re kind of looking at, in core Kubernetes, could we add imperative functionality on top of the declarative resources, which is interesting too. They’re looking at that for V2 now because there are limitations, there are some things that just do fit in to declarative pattern perfectly that would fit just the standard rest. You end up some weird edges there. As they’re going towards V2, they’re starting to look at could we mix imperative and declarative, which is and even maybe more interesting idea if you could do that right. [0:14:09.3] CC: In the Kubernetes world, what would that look like? [0:14:11.3] PB: Say you have an object that just represents something like on FOO, you have a YAML file and you're declaring FOO to be some sort of thing, you could apply that file and then now that state exist within the system and things noticed that that state of change that they’re acting on that state, there are times when you might want that FOO to have another action. Besides just applying states, you may want it to have some sort of capability on top of the point, let’s say, they’re quite a few use cases that come in where that turns into a thing. It’s something to explore, it’s a bit of a Pandora’s box if you will because where does that end. Kubernetes is kind of nice that it does enforce constraints at this core level and it produces these really kind of deep patterns within the system that people will find kind of easy to understand at least at a high level. Granted, you go deep into it, it gets highly complex but enforcing like name spaces as this concept of just a flat name space with declarative resources within it and then declarative resources themselves just being confined to the standard rest verbs, is a model that people I think understand well. I think this is part of the success for Kubernetes is just that people could get their hands around that model. It’s also just incredibly useful. [0:15:23.7] D: Another way to think about this is like, you probably seen articles out there that kind of describe the RESTful model and talking about whether REST can be transactional. Let’s talk a little bit about what that means. I know the implementation of an API pattern or an interface pattern might be. That the client sends information to the server and that the server locks that client connection until it’s able to return the result, whatever that result is. Think of this, in some ways, this is very much like a database, right? As a client of a database, I want to insert a row into a database, the database will lock that row, it will lock my connection, it will insert that row and it will return success and in this way, it’s synchronous, right? It’s not trying to just accept the change, it just wants to make sure that it returns to a persisted that change to the database before, letting go of the connection. This pattern is probably one of the most common patterns in interfaces in the world like it is way super common. But it’s very different than the restful pattern or some of the implementations of a restful pattern. In which what we say, especially in this declarative model, right? In a declarative model, the contract is basically, I’m going to describe a thing and you're going to tell me when you understand the thing I want to describe. It’s asynchronous. For example, if I were interacting with Kubernetes and I said, cube kettle create pod, I would provide the information necessary to define that pod declaratively and I would get back from the API server 200 okay, pod has been accepted. It doesn’t mean to it's been created. It means it’s been accepted as an object and persisted to disk. Now, to understand from a declarative perspective, where I am in the life cycle of managing that pod object, I have to query that API again. Hey, this pod that I ask you to make, are you done making it and how does this work and where are you in that cycle of creating that thing? This is where I like within Kubernetes, we have the idea of a speck which defines all of the bits that are declaratively described and we have the idea of a status which describes what we’ve been up to around that declarative object and whether we’ve actually successfully created it or not. I would argue that from a cloud native perspective that declarative model is critical to our success. Because it allows us to scale and it allows us to provide an asynchronous API around those objects that we’re trying to interact with and it really changes the game as far as like, how we go about implementing those inputs. [0:17:47.2] CC: This is so interesting, it was definitely a mind bender for me when I started developing against Kubernetes. Because what do you mean you’ve returned the 200 okay, and the thing is not created yet. When does it get created? It’s not hard to understand but I was so not used to that model. I think it gives us a lot of control. So it is very interesting that way and I think you might be right, Duffy, that it might be critical to the success of native apps because it is always like the way I am thinking about it right now just having heard you is almost like with all the models, let’s say you are working with a database in that transactional system. The data has be inserted and that system decides to retry or not once the transaction is complete as we get a result back. With a Kubernetes model or cloud native model, I don’t know what, which is both a proper things to say, the control is with us. We send the request, Kubernetes is going to do its thing, which allows us to move on too, which is great, right? Then I can check for the result, when I want to check and then I can decide what to do with the results when I want to do anything with it if it all, I think it gives us a lot more control as developers. [0:19:04.2] D: Agreed. And I think another thing that has stuck in my head around this model whether it would be declared over imperative is that I think that Go Lang itself has actually really enabled us to adopt that asynchronous model around things that threads are first class, right? You can build a channel to handle each individual request, that you are not in this world where all transactions have to stop until this one is complete and then we’ll take the next one out of queue and do that one. We're no longer in that kind of a queue model, we can actually handle these things in parallel quite a bit more. It makes you think differently when you are developing software. [0:19:35.9] J: It’s scary too that you can check this stuff into a repo. The advent of Git Ops is almost parallel to the advent of Kubernetes and Terra Form and that you can now have this state that is source controlled and then you just apply it to the system and it understands what to do with it and how to put all of the pieces together that you gave it, which is a super powerful model. [0:19:54.7] D: There is a point to that whole asynchronous model. It is like the idea of the API that has a declarative or an imperative model and this is an idea and distributed system that is [inaudible]. It is like edge triggering or level triggering but definitely recommend looking up this idea. There is a great article on it on Hack Noon and what they highlight is that the pure abstract perspective there is probably no difference between edge and level triggering. But when you get down to the details especially with distributed systems or cloud native architectures, you have to take into account the fact that there is a whole bunch of disruption between your services pretty much all the time and this is the challenge of distributed systems in general, when you are defining a bunch of unique individual systems that need to interact and they are going to rely on an unreliable network and they are going to rely on unreliable DNS. And they’re going to rely on all kinds of things that are going to jump in the way of between these communication models. And the question becomes how do you build a system that can be resilient to those interruptions. The asynchronous model absolutely puts you in that place, where if you are in that situation wherein you say, “Create me a pod.” And that pod object is persisted and now you can have something else to do the work that will reconcile that declared state with the actual state until it works. It will just keep trying and trying and trying until it works. In other models, you basically say, “Okay, well what work do I have to do right now and I have to focus on doing this work until it stops.” What happens if the process itself dies? What happens if any of the interruptions that we talk about happen? Another good example of this is the Kafka model versus something like a watch on etcd, right? In Kafka, you have these events that you are watching for. And if you weren’t paying attention when that event went by, you didn’t get that event. It is not still there. It is gone now whereas like with etcd and models like that, what you are saying is I need to reconcile my expectancy of the world with what the desired thing is. And so I am no longer looking for events. I am looking for a list of work that I have to reconcile to, which is a very different model for these sorts of things. [0:21:47.9] J: In Kubernetes, it becomes the informer pattern. If you all don’t know, which is basically at the core of the informer is just this concepts of list and watch where you are just watching for changes but every so often you list as well in case you missed something. I would argue that that pattern is so much more powerful than the Kafka model you’re just going to skin as well because like you mentioned, if you missed an event in Kafka somehow, someway is very difficult to reconcile that state. Like you mentioned, your entire system can go down in a level set system. You bring it back up and because it is level set, everything just figures itself out, which is a lot nicer than your entire system going down in an edge-based system and trying to figure out how to put everything back together yourself, which is not a fun time, if you have ever done it. [0:22:33.2] D: These are some patterns in the contracts that we see in the cloud native ecosystem and so it is really interesting to talk about them. Did you have another point Josh around API’s and stuff? [0:22:40.8] J: No, not in particular. [0:22:42.2] D: So I guess we give into like what some of the forms of these API’s to talk about. We could talk about RESTful API’s versus to TIPC-based API’s or maybe even just interfaces back and forth between modular code and how that helped you architect things. One of the things I’ve had conversations with people around is we spend a lot of our time conditioning our audience when in cloud native architecture to the idea that monliths are bad, bad, bad and they should never do them. And that is not necessarily true, right? And I think it is definitely worth talking through like why we have these different opinions and what they mean. When I have that conversation with customers, frequently a monolith makes sense because as long as you’re able to build modularity into it and you are being really clear about the interfaces back and forth between those functions with the idea that if you have to actually scale traffic to or from this monolith. If the function that you are writing needs to be effectively externalized in such a way that can handle an amount of work that will surpass what the entire monolith can handle. As long as you are really clear about the contract that you are defining between those functions then later on, when it comes to a time to externalize those functions and embrace kind of a more microservices based model mainly due to traffic reload or any of the other concerns that kind of drive you toward a cloud native architecture, I think you are in a better spot and this is definitely one of the points of the contract piece that I wanted to raise up. [0:24:05.0] CC: I wonder though how hard it is for people to keep that in mind and follow that intention. If you have to break things into micro services because you have bottlenecks in your monolith and maybe have to redo the whole thing, once you have the micro services, you have gone through the exercise of deciding, you know this goes here, these goes there and once you have the separate modules it is clear where they should go. But when you have a monolith it is so easy to put things in a place where they shouldn’t be. It takes so much discipline and if you are working on a team that is greater than two, I don’t know. [0:24:44.3] PB: There are certain languages that lend themselves to these things like when you are writing Java services or there are things where it is easy to — when writing even quickly, rapidly prototyping an application that has multiple functions to be careful about those interfaces that you are writing, like Go because it is a strongly type language kind of forces you into this, right? There are some other languages that are out that make it difficult to be sloppy about those interfaces. And I think that is inherently a good thing. But to your point like you are looking at some of the larger monoliths that are out there. It is very easy to fall into these patterns where instead of an asynchronous API or an asynchronous interface, you have just a native interface and you are a asynchronous interface in which you expect that I would be able to call this functional and put something in there. I will get the result back and that is a pattern for monoliths. Like that is how we do it in monoliths. [0:25:31.8] CC: Because you say in there also made me think of the Conway’s Law because when we separate these into micro services and I am not saying micro services is right for everything for every team and every company. But I am just saying if you are going through that exercise of separating things because you have bottlenecks then maybe in the future you have to put them elsewhere. Externalize them like you said. If you think if the Conway’s Law if you have a big team, everybody working on that same monolith that is when things are in depth in the place that they shouldn’t be. The point of micro services is not just to technically separate things but to allow people to work separately and that inter-team communication is going to be reflected in the software that they are creating but because they are forced to communicate and hopefully they do it well that those micro services should be well-designed but if you have a monolith and everyone working on the same project, it gets more confusing. [0:26:31.4] D: Conway’s Law as an overview is basically that an organization will build software and laid out similar to the way the thought musician itself is architected. So if everybody in the entire company is working on one thing and they are really focused on doing that one thing, you’d better build a monolith. If you have these groups that are disparate and are really focused on some subset of work and need to communicate with each other to do that thing then you are going to build something more similar or maybe more capable as a micro service. That is a great point. So actually one of the things about [inaudible] that I found so fascinating with it, it would be a 100 people and we were everywhere. So communication became a problem that absolutely had to be solved or we wouldn’t be able to move forward as a team. [0:27:09.5] J: An observation that I had in my past life helping folks, breaking apart Java monoliths like you said Duffy, assume they had really good interfaces and contracts right? And that made it a lot easier to find the breaking points for their API’s to pull those API’s out into a different type of API. They went from this programmatic API, that was in the JBM where things were just intercommunicating to an API that was based on a web service. And an interesting observation I oftentimes found was that people didn’t realize that in removing complexity from within the app to the network space that oftentimes caused a lot of issues and I am not trying to down API’s because obviously we are trying to talk about the benefits of them but it is an interesting balancing act. Oftentimes when you are working with how to decouple a monolith, I feel like you actually can go too far with it. It can cause some serious issues. [0:27:57.4] D: I completely agree with that. That is where I wanted to go with the idea of why we say that building a monolith is bad and like with the challenges of breaking those monoliths apart later. But you are absolutely right. When you are going to introduce the wild chaos that is a network between your services, are you going to externalize functions and which means that you have to care a lot more about where you store a state because that state is no longer shared across all of the things. It means that you have to be really super careful about how you are modeling that. If you get to the point where this software that you built that is a monolith that is wildly successful and all of its consumers are networked based, you are going to have to come around on that point of contracts. Another thing that we haven’t really talked on so much is like we all agree that maybe like an API for say the consumer model is important. We have talked a little bit about whether private API’s or public API’s make sense. We described one of the whacky things that Kubernetes does, which is that there are no private API’s. It is all totally exposed all the time. I am sure that all of us have seen way more examples of things that do have a private API mainly because perhaps the services are trained. Service A always fact to service B. Service B has an API that it may be a private API. You are never going to expose to your external customers only to service A or to consumers of that internal API. One of the other things that we should talk about is when you are starting to think about these contracts. One of the biggest and most important bits is how you handle the lifecycle of those API’s, as they change right? Like I say add new features or functionality or as I deprecate old features and functionality, what are my concerns as it relates to this contract. [0:29:33.5] CC: Tell me and take my money. [0:29:37.6] D: I wish there was like a perfect answer. But I am pretty convinced that there are no perfect answers. [0:29:42.0] J: I spent a lot of time in the space recently and I have researched it for like a month or so and honestly, there are no perfect answers to try to version an API. Every single on of them has horrible potential consequences to it. The approach Kubernetes took is API evolution, where basically all versions of the API have to be backwards compatible and they basically all translate to what is an internal type in Kubernetes and everything has to be translatable back to that. This is nice for reasons. It is also very difficult to deal with at times because if you add things to an API, you can’t really every remove them without a massive amount of deprecation effort basically moderating the usage of that API specifically and then somehow deprecating it. It is incredibly challenging. [0:30:31.4] PB: I think it is 1-16 in which they finally turn off a lot of the deprecated API’s that Kubernetes had. So a lot of this stuff that has been moved for some number of versions off to different spaces for example deployments used to be extensions and now they are in apps. They have a lot of these things. Some of the older API’s are going to be turned off by default in 1-16 and I am really interested to see how this plays out you know from kind of a chaos level perspective. But yeah you’re right, it is tough. Having that backwards compatibility definitely means that the contract is still viable for your customers regardless of how old their client side looks like but this is kind of a fingernail problem, right? You are going to be in a situation where you are going to be holding those translations to that stored object for how many generations before you are able to finally get rid of some of those old API’s that you’ve have obviously moved on from. [0:31:19.6] CC: Deprecating an end point is not reviewed at all and ideally like better with, you would be able to monitor the usage of the end point and see as you intend deprecating is the usage is going lower and if there is anything you can do to accelerate that, which actually made me think of a question I have for you guys because I don’t know the answer to this. Do we have access to the end points usage, the consumption rate of Kubernetes end points by any of the cloud service providers? It would be nice if we did. [0:31:54.9] D: Yeah, there would be no way for us to get that information right? The thing about Kubernetes is something that you are going to run on your own infrastructure and there is no phone home thing like that. [0:32:03.9] CC: Yeah but the cost providers could do that and provide us a nice service to the community. [0:32:09.5] D: They could that is a very good point. [0:32:11.3] PB: [inaudible] JKE, it could expose some of the statistics around those API end points. [0:32:16.2] J: I think the model right now is they just ping the community and say they are deprecating it and if a bunch of people scream, they don’t. I mean that is the only way to really know right now. [0:32:27.7] CC: The squeaky wheels get the grease kind of thing. [0:32:29.4] J: Yeah. [0:32:30.0] D: I mean that is how it turns out. [0:32:31.4] J: In regarding versioning, taking out of Kubernetes for a second, I also think this is one of the challenges with micro service architectures, right? Because now you have the ability to independently deploy a service outside of the whole monolith and if you happen to break something that cracks contractually you said you would and people just didn’t pay attention or you accidentally broke it not knowing, it can cause a lot of rift in a system. So versioning becomes a new concern because you are no longer deploying a massive system. You are deploying bits of it and perhaps versioning them and releasing them at different times. So again, it is that added complexity. [0:33:03.1] CC: And then you have this set of versions talk to this set of versions. Now you have a matrix and it is very complicated. [0:33:08.7] PB: Yeah and you do somewhat have a choice. You can’t have each service independently versioned or you could go with global versioning, where everything within V1 could talk to everything else than V1. But it's an interesting point around breakage because tools like GRPC kind of enforce you to where you cannot break the API, through just how the framework itself is built and that’s why you see GRPC in a lot of places where you see micro services just because it helps get the system stable. [0:33:33.1] D: Yeah and I will call back to that one point again, which I think is actually one of Josh’s points. If you are going to build multiple services and you are building an API between them then that means the communication path might be service A to service B and service B to service A. You are going to build this crazy mesh in which you have to define an API in each of these points to allow for that consumption or that interaction data. And one of the big takeaways for me in studying the cloud native ecosystem is that if you could define that API and that declarative state as a central model to all of your services then you can flip this model on its head instead of actually trying to define an API between in front of a service. You can make that service a consumer of a centralized API and now you have one contract to right and one contract to standby and all of those things that are going to do work are going to pull down from that central API. And do the work and put back into that central API the results, meaning that you are flipping this model on its head. You are no longer locking until service B can return the result to you. You are saying, “Service B here is a declarative state that I want you to accomplish and when you are done accomplishing it, let me know and I will come back for the results,” right? And you could let me know in an event stream. You can let me know by updating a status object that I am monitoring. There’s lots of different ways for you to let me know that service B is done doing the work but it really makes you think about the architecture of these distributed systems. It is really one of the big highlights for me personally when I look at the way that Kubernetes was architected. Because there are no private API’s. Everything talks to the API server. Everything that is doing work regardless of what data it’s manipulating but it is changing or modifying. It has to adhere to that central contract. [0:35:18.5] J: And that is an interesting point you brought up is that Kubernetes in a way is almost a monolith, in that everything passes through the API server, all the data leaves in this central place but you still have those distributed nature too, with the controllers. It is almost a mix of the patterns in some ways. [0:35:35.8] D: Yeah, I mean thanks for the discussion everybody that was a tremendous talk on contracts and API’s. I hope everybody got some real value out of it. And this is Duffy signing off. I will see you next week. [0:35:44.8] CC: This is great, thank you. [0:35:46.5] J: Cheers, thanks. [0:35:47.8] CC: Bye. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:35:49.2] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io website where you will find transcripts and show notes. We’ll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

law building discipline transforming jeff bezos picking comparing contracts quotes oftentimes api granted ui java aws conway apis duffy pb kafka dns swagger software development kubernetes authentication v2 independently microservices restful foo v1 cla cli cloud native jit golang yaml counteracting grpc hackernoon j no crd restful api jbm externalize d good d there j yeah sck announcer thank announcer welcome

Making Sense of Container Orchestration (Ep 2)

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2019 47:24

In this episode, we dive into the exciting world of container orchestration in Kubernetes. We have all heard about container orchestration, but to truly understand this concept, we have to first understand what containers are and why they started! From definitions of containers and how they fit into the bigger cloud landscape, down to the nitty-gritty’s of managing and scaling container orchestration; this episode gives you strong foundation to better understand the functions and impacts of container orchestration today. Container orchestration in Kubernetes is so popular today but it can be difficult to how whether container orchestration is right for you. These are just some of the questions and topics we get into today, and if you’re looking for a solid base to begin your container orchestration process or enquiry – this is the episode for you! Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Website: https://thepodlets.io Feeback: info@thepodlets.io https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues Hosts: Carlisia Campos Josh Rosso Nicholas Lane Key Points From This Episode: • Discover why container orchestration first came about.• Find out exactly what a container is and how it functions.• Using a container versus a virtual machine or process.• Managing container orchestration on a large scale.• Learn how container orchestration acts on information.• Managing actual state and expected state in container orchestration. • The key benefits of adopting container orchestration.• The key difference between container orchestrators.• A declarative way to approach resource limiting.• How to distinguish between the project and the product.• What is it that makes Kubernetes so popular today?• How to make an informed decision about using Kubernetes.• Find out when you should not be using container orchestration. Quotes: “The orchestration part is really just dictating behavior and state.” — @carlisia [0:05:43] “If you already use Kubernetes that would be like trying to plow the field with a nuclear bomb.” — Nicholas @apinick [0:42:10] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Velero — https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/veleroYoutube Premium — https://www.youtube.com/premiumKubeCon China — https://01.org/events/2019/open-source-summit-china-kubecon/ cloudnativeconSteven Wong — https://twitter.com/cantbewongCloud Native Social Hour — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxBxcdeMOYEKube Janitor — https://github.com/theMagicalKarp/kube-janitorDocker — https://www.docker.com/Mesosphere — https://d2iq.com/Red Hat — https://www.redhat.com/enKubernetes VS Docker Swarm — https://thenewstack.io/kubernetes-vs-docker-swarm-whats- the-difference/Kubernetes Slack Channel — http://slack.k8s.io/Kubelets Cloud Native Podcast — http://cloudnativepodcast.com/The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets Transcript: EPISODE 02 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] NL: Hello and welcome back to The Podlets Podcast, Episode Two, Container Orchestration. My name is Nicholas and joining me today this week are Carlisia and Josh. [0:00:50.9] CC: Hello. [0:00:50.9] NL: Hello. [0:00:52.0] CC: Good to be here again. [0:00:53.7] NL: Yeah. How was your week, everyone? [0:00:55.6] CC: Very good, lots of work. [0:00:57.3] NL: Yeah, anything exciting happening in the world of Velero? [0:01:00.1] CC: Yes, we just got our alpha release for version 1.0 and we are looking for testers, yeah, we want testers. [0:01:08.2] NL: Awesome. [0:01:09.2] JR: I’ve been traveling a lot but it’s been good, we’re doing a lot of interesting work with some Kubernetes cluster running in an on premise datacenter which is something we see less and less, now that the cloud providers are kind of taking on their different offering. So it’s cool to hop back to kind of the bare metal and virtualization space and play around there. [0:01:27.6] NL: That’s cool. I’ve actually got a question for you guys, kind of irrespective of container orchestration, but how do you guys manage travel, right? How do you keep yourself entertained, how do you keep yourself happy while you’re traveling? For me, it’s a lot of podcasts which is great, now that I’m doing a podcast. [0:01:43.0] CC: Yeah, I do podcasts. I signed up for YouTube premium so I can download videos. I watch the movies on the plane, I have a kindle with lots of books. [0:01:56.2] NL: Yeah, that’s nice. [0:01:57.4] CC: Or I just sleep. [0:01:59.0] NL: I wish I could. [0:01:59.9] JR: Yeah, sleep is always the first goal, but I also signed up for YouTube Premium and the offline feature is fantastic so there’s so much good info on YouTube, you know? It’s great to like – go to the KubeCon Playlist and just choose offline and then you have all that time in the plane to really sift through talks and what not. It’s been really cool. [0:02:18.9] CC: Exactly. [0:02:19.8] NL: That’s a great idea. I’ve actually not used YouTube Premium for that. I’ve only ever used it for like meditation tracks, to use on the airplane. I spend some time in the plane kind of just in my own head a little bit kind of doing some internal self-care if you will. [0:02:34.0] CC: Nice. [0:02:34.7] NL: But that gets boring.EPISODE 02 [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.7] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concepts, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] NL: Hello and welcome back to The Podlets Podcast, Episode Two, Container Orchestration. My name is Nicholas and joining me today this week are Carlisia and Josh. [0:00:50.9] CC: Hello. [0:00:50.9] NL: Hello. [0:00:52.0] CC: Good to be here again. [0:00:53.7] NL: Yeah. How was your week, everyone? [0:00:55.6] CC: Very good, lots of work. [0:00:57.3] NL: Yeah, anything exciting happening in the world of Velero? [0:01:00.1] CC: Yes, we just got our alpha release for version 1.0 and we are looking for testers, yeah, we want testers. [0:01:08.2] NL: Awesome. [0:01:09.2] JR: I’ve been traveling a lot but it’s been good, we’re doing a lot of interesting work with some Kubernetes cluster running in an on premise datacenter which is something we see less and less, now that the cloud providers are kind of taking on their different offering. So it’s cool to hop back to kind of the bare metal and virtualization space and play around there. [0:01:27.6] NL: That’s cool. I’ve actually got a question for you guys, kind of irrespective of container orchestration, but how do you guys manage travel, right? How do you keep yourself entertained, how do you keep yourself happy while you’re traveling? For me, it’s a lot of podcasts which is great, now that I’m doing a podcast. [0:01:43.0] CC: Yeah, I do podcasts. I signed up for YouTube premium so I can download videos. I watch the movies on the plane, I have a kindle with lots of books. [0:01:56.2] NL: Yeah, that’s nice. [0:01:57.4] CC: Or I just sleep. [0:01:59.0] NL: I wish I could. [0:01:59.9] JR: Yeah, sleep is always the first goal, but I also signed up for YouTube Premium and the offline feature is fantastic so there’s so much good info on YouTube, you know? It’s great to like – go to the KubeCon Playlist and just choose offline and then you have all that time in the plane to really sift through talks and what not. It’s been really cool. [0:02:18.9] CC: Exactly. [0:02:19.8] NL: That’s a great idea. I’ve actually not used YouTube Premium for that. I’ve only ever used it for like meditation tracks, to use on the airplane. I spend some time in the plane kind of just in my own head a little bit kind of doing some internal self-care if you will. [0:02:34.0] CC: Nice. [0:02:34.7] NL: But that gets boring. [0:02:36.0] CC: I meditate too, it’s great. [0:02:38.2] NL: Yeah, it’s good. All right, anything interesting in the cloud native space that you guys have found in the last week? [0:02:43.6] CC: I have a talk that was accepted for KubeCon China. [0:02:47.4] NL: Awesome, congratulations. [0:02:49.6] JR: Congrats. [0:02:50.6] CC: Yeah, it’s a joint talk with Steven Wong also from Thea Moore. We’re going to talk about data recovery, data protection, recovery, migration in Velero. [0:03:03.9] NL: That’s great. He’s been coming to the Cloud Native Social Hour pretty regularly. That’s awesome to see some more cross interaction. [0:03:11.6] CC: Yeah, he is awesome, so knowledgeable. [0:03:14.0] NL: Great. And Josh? [0:03:15.5] JR: Very cool. I was actually looking this week since I’m in kind of the Kubernetes mindset, for something that can kind of add a TTL to any Kubernetes resource. So think of something like a service account in Kubernetes and I want to attach a TTL to it such that in four hours, it effectively got swept up and is no longer existent in the system. There’s some interesting ways that actually Kube ADM, one of the bootstrapping tools, does this. I was trying to kind of replicate that for their tokens, there’s a project by one of these Landau folks. Jacobs, I don’t know if that’s his last of first name, sorry in advance for butchering it, but he’s got a project called Kube Janitor that does effectively that. With annotations, you can put a TTL on them, your resources and then Kube Janitor will just come through and sweep that up. Which I thought a really cool idea. That was an interesting thing that I saw, it’s no new news, I think it’s been around for a while but it’s the first time that I had run into it. [0:04:07.6] NL: Nice. For me, our cohost Duffy, turned me on to a tool called Chaos Blade. Recently, I’ve been getting more and more into Chaos engineering and this is apparently an easy to use Chaos engineering toolkit. Something I’ve only just started looking at but I’m pretty excited. I’ll probably play around with that a bit more. [0:04:25.2] JR: Cool, awesome. [0:04:26.9] NL: Yeah, this week on the podcast, we are talking about container orchestration and kind of what that is, right? For me, container orchestration is the idea that you need your workloads to run somewhere but you don’t necessarily need to care where they’re running and the way that this has been done traditionally, prior to container orchestration, was like scheduling VM’s or making sure these processes run on certain computers, right? There’s a lot of automation around that like, when containers came around, we needed some way to make sure that they’re running and it also enabled us to not need to care so much about how things get started in all that. Everything was kind of packaged in a container I think. They need to just be some way to run them. That’s kind of where container orchestration came in, is that kind of your guys’ take on that as well? [0:05:18.3] CC: Yeah, basically, when we say we are orchestrating containers, we basically tell them how to behave, right? For example, I have this container here and I’m going to declare that if it fails, I want it to come back up in this container over there, if you fail just keep that state, don’t do anything and then I might say hey, I want two of you, three of you, I want to – the orchestration part is really just dictating behavior and state. [0:05:48.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely. [0:05:49.9] JR: Yeah. I think one interesting thing that came with the advent of containers is, we used to have this notion of you know, what server is my application going to land on or then eventually, you know, what virtual machine is my app eventually going to land on and we think kind of in this units of virtual machines and the paradigm shift a bit, at least in my experience has been now that you have the container unit and you can run many of those on one virtual machine, right? Your concern about orchestration is not just putting it on machine A and putting it on machine B but it’s kind of like packing multiple of this containers, perhaps on the same virtual machine or same host. The orchestration notion is beyond just the conventional system construct of a different host each time, it’s really interesting. [0:06:34.0] NL: Yeah, I think it might be important for us actually to take a step back. I realized I kind of jumped right into it, but we should probably settle what a container is, right? Before we can talk about how we can orchestrate them. A container is basically just a tar ball honestly. That is a packaged application with the instructions for it to run on any system that can accept that tar ball. Containers are broken down into a couple of Linux constructs, C groups and name space, so C groups four, making sure the process runs in its own dedicated memory and then or just like isolated memory. Then name spaces for things like network isolation. So that the network traffic that’s going on in the container doesn’t cross over to other processes. Very controlled process initiation based on these instruction. That’s kind of what a container is, a lot of people think that they’re like, kind of like a VM, I’ve heard that a few times where like, “Oh how do I deploy it?” What’s the VMDK for a container? It’s just a process that runs on a computer in a very controlled fashion, that’s literally it. [0:07:43.9] JR: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting to think like, at what point in which we kind of started using containers and seeing containers. I’d be curious for either two of you, Carlisia especially, what was your first exposure to the unit of a container and why were you starting to consider using a container versus just a virtual machine or a process? [0:08:03.0] CC: Frankly, I don’t remember. My first time seeing a container has been a long time but I don’t remember. But probably maybe trying to do some application like some toy application that – an example application. I remember that I was working on an application that we had the option to stuff it into a container as well, but I personally didn’t make the development. I wasn’t using it for development. My first usage of container really was about three years ago when I was working for CDN and a CDN as you might imagine has many different parts, so it has very low-level software running to higher level software, right? Really, sometimes, well, not sometimes, it has kernel level applications in systems, and it has API level system. For you to develop one part of it is it was really handy to be able to stuff our different systems into containers and have containers stuck to each other. We weren’t using the introduction. This was for development, but it was amazing, it was fantastic, we would have applications developed and go. Different systems that needed to talk to each other and we would have applications in C and I think that is to remember but it was amazing. Everything in containers and then we have a tool as well, they were sort of like Kubernetes, it wasn’t Kubernetes. It was developed in house. That orchestrated all of these things and you know, we simply failed, bringing back up and did a bunch of other things as well. I cannot explain the difference of working like that. It’s so much faster and so I could be a lot more autonomous, being able to run everything myself. I didn’t depend on having access to its server. I ran everything on my laptop, it was fantastic. [0:10:17.6] NL: Awesome. The first time I ran into a container was back when I was working for Red Hat, right when Open Shift Three CEO came out, that’s when Open Shift kind of moved from the in-house version of Open Shift to adopting Kubernetes. I had been working mostly in the virtualization like infrastructure world like doing a Red Hat enterprise virtualization manager, which is kind of like a Red Hat take on B Sphere, you know, kind of. I was very used to virtualization and spinning things up. There is some aspects of creating a VM and creating a container that were very similar. It took me awhile for my brain to click. Once I started using open chip to kind of click into like, “Oh this is how they’re different, right?” Whereas, if you’ve just started looking at it, “Well what’s kind of the difference?” They’re all just like, in my command line, they all just come up as like lists of units, right? This is a processing unit, that’s a processing unit right there. They’re kind of similar but once you start really getting into the use of it, it was so much different. I had heard like during this process of switching over to these two tools, I had heard of Docker and I was like, it’s something I’ll take a look at and finally, by shifting over to it, I finally was starting to – like oh this is what docker is, this is how we use these and then like, kind of digging into containers there. It was an interesting switch from an infrastructure standpoint to like, this is how people use containers and then that kind of actually started getting me into development. Now that I didn’t have to care about all this overhead of like where do I put my application, if I want my application around on my computer versus your computer, how do I make sure that the packages are the same bubble? Once there was that easy way to kind of say, I just want this run everywhere, no matter what, hopefully, that really just like, fascinated me and it kind of took off from there. Josh, what about you? [0:12:11.6] JR: Yeah, my experience wasn’t to dissimilar. What was interesting is the space I was working in was a lot of legacy Java applications, so we kind of came into containers probably a little bit later than what some of you all did. What was always interesting about it is, you know, we started to really see the value of containers just like Carlisia was saying, we started packaging these apps up and they ran the same in every environment and just really changed our workflow around. Initially, it was just like, let’s figure out a way to simply start these containers on different hosts, whether it be like Answerable or even someone going out a host and typing Docker Run, you know, that was how we got these processes to start. As the adoption of containers grew and more and more containers started to come to life in this company, the need for orchestration finally became obvious, right?I had heard about this project called Kubernetes, I’d heard a bit about Swarm, Mesos and it was always just like I don’t understand why you’d ever need something this complex, right? But eventually you hit this like inflection point where it just becomes insanely obvious, that your life is potentially going to be just chaos without something that can actually figure out, hey, you need to run this container, let me figure out where to put it and make sure that it starts. I thought that was like a really interesting progression. It used to be really hard also to navigate the options because there were a lot of options and there still are, there’s Swarm Kubernetes, Open Shift, Mesos, so on and so forth. [0:13:31.9] NL: Yeah, that’s actually a good point to what I’m talking about is that, container orchestration, it seems like we’re all kind of building up to the same point where when containers were kind of taking off, everyone started to see like this is great. But how do I do this at scale? Even like remotely at scale. A bunch of people started doing their own thing. So there was Kubernetes, which is the open source version aboard with some changes to make a more friendly for other people, there’s Docker, Docker Swarm and then Mesos, Rancher. But then, Carlisia, your team had their own orchestration, a lot of other companies have their own orchestration as well so it’s not just – you don’t need like this project to do or any of these projects to do container orchestration. You can do it on your own if you need to, right? For example, you could take a look at Uber, they aren’t using a project, they’ve rolled their own container orchestration at scale and I think that’s the same, that’s crazy to me but that’s awesome for them to have pulled that off, right? [0:14:29.4] CC: Yeah, absolutely. When I think of container orchestration, there is the management part and the scaling part because when you think about management for example, I might need a whole set of services to be up and running before I can run the set of services. The orchestration is going to manage that for me. Make sure that the services come up, they’re up and now this set gets kicked off. If I don’t need to scale, I still need to do this, right? There is usually some sort of dependency. Then in the scaling part which is also – I mean, it’s important for a lot of companies but it’s not important for a lot of companies smaller sized companies, right? [0:15:18.7] JR: Maybe we can talk a bit about what kind of information container orchestration works with to determine what it should do, if that sort of makes sense? Like what kinds of things are we telling these systems about and then what is it doing to act on that information? [0:15:38.0] NL: Yeah, please, go ahead and dive into that a bit more. [0:15:41.0] JR: Yeah, I guess it seems like the common approach that we run into, at least with Kubernetes and I think it’s true for a lot of these different systems, is the notion of reconciling state, right? We start of kind of with declarative definition if you will of what we want the world to look like and that could be some app running with some amount of replicas and you want it to have a certain amount of CPU and memory available. Then, these orchestrators usually can just take that declarative notion and sort of act on it, right? I know Nicholas, you’re really close to Kubernetes, would you want to speak to like how exactly it acts on those things like when you give it that declarative API object? What it’s going to do behind the scenes? [0:16:24.6] NL: Yeah, in Kubernetes, there’s a couple of different systems at play. This is something that I find really fascinating. There’s a lot of reconciliation loops in many different places. In Kubernetes when you first declare to Kubernetes that you want something to happen, you talk to the API server. The API server then modifies the etcd data store, right? The data store is just, simply ley value pair brain, it’s like the brain of your Kubernetes, right? Only the API server, as far as I’m aware and remembering off the top of my head, that’s the only thing that actually directly communicates to the etcd server. That might be incorrect but for the purpose of this – [0:17:04.3] CC: I think that’s correct. [0:17:06.8] NL: Okay, good. I was suddenly second guessing myself. The API directly can be considered sort of make the changes. Then the controller manager is in a reconciliation loop, saying like, here’s what I think the world looks like and if the world changes based on what etcd is saying, the controller manager maintains actual state and etcd controls expected states. This is where we want to be. If actual state and expected state are different, the controller manager reconciles that. Either it will delete something or add something to the cluster at large to make sure that that state exists. [0:17:47.6] CC: Based on what’s in the etcd database? [0:17:50.4] NL: Yes, exactly. It will – the controller manager, based on all the many controllers that are just themselves reconciliation nubs, if any of them are you know, different, it will then kick of something to the schedule which will then inform the various nodes in the cluster, what changes they need to do to reconcile state. Those changes occur, control managers sees that actual state matches expected state and everyone’s fat, dumb and happy. [0:18:17.3] CC: We actually didn’t talk much about other container orchestrators other than Kubernetes but I’m wondering because I’m not familiar with any others, but others come to mind, Docker, Swarm and Mesosphere, do they operate in the same way? [0:18:36.7] NL: Josh, I think you had some more experience than I did with at least, I believe it was Mesosphere? [0:18:41.8] JR: No, unfortunately not. [0:18:43.1] NL: I thought – okay, I thought that you had used in your previous life, you’d use at least one other? [0:18:49.0] JR: No, we did some small proof of concepts on Swarm but we never go very far along with it. [0:18:54.1] NL: Yeah, I actually, to be honest, I don’t really know much of the difference between like Rancho Lab, Mesosphere and Docker Swarm. I believe that they all act very similarly to Kubernetes but in slightly different way and this is something that I meant to take a look at before, talking about it but I just ran out of time, I’ll be honest. [0:19:12.8] CC: I guess we’re going to need Part Two to this episode. [0:19:15.7] NL: This is a big topic, we’ll definitely have to come back and kind of launch on this a bit more. I think they’re all orchestration and all these orchestrators work in the same function, right? Or the same fashion. There’s what you want to happen, what actually exists, how do we get that change to occur, right? [0:19:33.8] CC: Was that what you meant, Josh? [0:19:35.4] JR: Yeah, exactly. I think the one thing to add too is the systems are generally making like really informed decisions when trying to reconcile desired state. By really informed decisions, I mean, they’re obviously aware of a lot about the compute resources available to them. One big benefit that adopting container orchestration gives you is things like the scheduler are able to look into the system and understand, hey, based on resources I have available in this area, it would be smarter for me to start more containers over here versus over here, right? When you have these larger complex things and you’re trying to kind of think of all your resources as kind of like a sea of compute. The container orchestration is not only able to get you to a desired state but also to do it in a way that is, at least in most cases, as desirable as possible, right? As far as using resources effectively and a term that we often times throughout there, which is Vin Packing, right? The idea of ensuring that we can know the resources a container needs and pack them together really tightly, so that we’re utilizing the potential hardware or cloud resources that we’re paying for every month. A lot of times, the adoption of container orchestration is this really elegant way to move our workloads around but at the same time, it’s a way to really utilize the things we’re paying for and potentially cut costs over time as well. [0:20:57.5] CC: Yeah, this is one thing that I find fascinating with at least Kubernetes because I haven’t used the other orchestrators. We can boot up let’s say, four machines, and four instances of a machine and deploy Kubernetes on it and tell Kubernetes, “I want these many nodes, these many pods and have this container with apps obviously, or services running in the containers.” I don’t need to specify even where anything’s going to go. It just spreads the load and keeps managing and monitoring and managing what needs to go where to better utilize the instances. [0:21:46.2] NL: I think that’s actually an important distinction between the different container orchestrators that exist out there. If I recall correctly, I believe that Mesosphere has a mechanism that can kind of better load balance your containers that are running in the cluster. At least better than – it can make a kind of a more informed decision on like the state of the cluster and where it took place things than Kubernetes does and that might be one of the key differences between the two. That’s something that I hear a lot in the Kubernetes community. Someone’s like, “I noticed that all of my resources are kind of being put on to one computer and then the rest of them aren’t even being utilized at all, what’s up with that?” I think there’s something there that’s important to understand which is the Vin packing that Josh was talking about. Also, I pointed like that because on my screen, Josh is right next to me but that might not be the case so I might just look like I’m pointing out from the space.vIt’s important to know that from the capacity of at least in Kubernetes and like most of these orchestrators, if there are resources to be utilized, the orchestrator doesn’t care for the most part. Mesosphere has the ability to kind of load balance, as I said but as long as the resources that are available on one computer are the same as any other computer. If one of them is getting like super utilized and the other ones aren’t, it doesn’t really matter, it doesn’t affect the functionality of the cluster at all, right? One meg here and one meg there, essentially the same. [0:23:11.7] CC: What does the orchestrator do when let’s say I have four instances and I have what I have, I stuffed a bunch of consigners in there and I’m thinking, for this instance, this will give me plenty of memory but I have a leaky app and all of a sudden, my RAM blows up. What happens? [0:23:34.1] NL: This actually ties into why I look into an orchestration from a cloud native perspective. This is kind of where, container orchestration is cloud native. It takes into account the elastic nature of your resources. If you have this application that’s blowing up, either you can have limits to how many resources the application can utilize, or you can use auto scaling. In Kubernetes, we have something called Horizontal Plot Auto Scaling and some of the other tools, I’m sure they have the same, but the idea is like, as you’re using more and more resources in the pod, it is taking up this much memory. It then needs to create a new pod, right? Or a new container, right? So a new container needs to get orchestrated and then another one, another one, another one. Now, if you have a really aggressive application that is acting kind of maliciously that’s not great because it will take up all the resources in your cluster and that’s not good. But if you just have a very spiky application, it could grow with its needs and then come back down, and no one has to know about it essentially. Your orchestrator can make that happen for you. I think that is really cool. [0:24:40.9] CC: It is and what if I am reaching the limits of my resources. I mean there are only so many pods that can stuff in four instances or two instances. So what if I am reaching the limits of my resources? What happens then? How is an orchestrator going to help me? [0:24:58.6] JR: Yeah, the nice thing is we can – and most of these orchestrators set some type of parameter around potential CPU that we want to make available in memory, that we want to make available for the app and what is nice about this is at least speaking to Kubernetes, and I am sure it is similar for others, just using some of the underlying technologies that are existent in Linux like Nicholas has mentioned C groups. We have the ability when CPU gets too high to potentially throttle it and slow it down or at least limit the amount of CPU it can use in given cycles and with memory, if we start over committing, we now have the ability to potentially kill the application if it is starting to take up more memory than it actually should be allowed to take up. What’s interesting about Kubernetes and other orchestrators is their self-healing model is that sometimes when apps are doing really bad things, like leaking memory all over the place, you might not detect it right away, right? Because it is actually going to potentially limit or kill the app and self-heal it by bringing it back up. So it might seem like your app is still online and you don’t necessarily realize that under the hood, Kubernetes was actually restarting it and trying to continually bring it to a state of health, right? So you have a lot of abilities. It is like everything that Nicholas just said about reading how much information or resource the app is taking and potentially scaling based on that, or even setting like hard limits to say, “I want to throttle my app or even potentially kill my app if it starts to act badly and use up more than it should.” So it is a really cool kind of declarative way to approach resource limiting. [0:26:29.2] NL: And that is actually something that I don’t think a lot of people including myself work on that much is the throttling aspect, right? Most people are like, “Okay, well whatever. Just take up as many resources as we need.” That’s what it’s there for but maybe you shouldn’t always be doing that. Not every application needs to expand horizontally or vertically, if it’s safe or said. It could be that the application is acting poorly, and they need to be like, “No, you actually don’t need that many resources.” [0:26:56.4] CC: So let us say any or all of these things are happening, throttling and self-healing, how could I know? I mean I am asking this question, but I know the answer. I mean what tools do people actually use to be informed and notified of these events? [0:27:15.9] NL: So this is something I think we are going to get on another episode but just to come breach this into something that – I am also very excited. I am just a very excitable person really, I’m like, people say I’m just like a puppy and they’re not wrong. [0:27:27.1] CC: That’s why you’re here Nic. [0:27:29.0] NL: What? Me? Who said that? Is observation or observability. So monitoring, alerting, inflecting into your cluster to know what is happening, right? So you could, as Josh was saying like under the hood these things could be happening and the orchestrator is reconciling your cluster and your resource utilization for you and you might not know it but if you have observation and you have monitoring going on, you could see like, “Oh hey this pod is like restarting every 20 minutes.” Like it shouldn’t, it doesn’t need to restart every 20 minutes, like clearly the application is still running. So that is not a bad thing but maybe we should fix that, right? So you can be aware of what’s going on, right? [0:28:10.3] CC: And I know that there are tools that provide monitoring and observation but Kubernetes itself doesn’t provide that, right? Those are things that we hook into Kubernetes. [0:28:21.0] NL: Yes. Yeah that is correct because Kubernetes, and like any of these other orchestraters, are doing what they should be doing, which is being the best orchestrator they could. Having like that package now that you are getting into something that is more like a product and there is nothing wrong with products but that is not what these projects are here to be, right? [0:28:40.2] CC: How do you distinguish between the project and the product? [0:28:43.0] NL: Now that is interesting. Josh, you want to take this one? [0:28:45.7] CC: You opened the door. [0:28:47.0] JR: Yeah, I’ll start and then I actually think Nicholas, you might be the best one to speak to this with your background in Open Shift quite frankly, right? So it is kind of like these orchestrators are primitive in a way for how we eventually build a platform and that platform is a larger thing that includes potential monitoring, maybe plugins to continuous integration and continuous delivery. There’s a lot of groups or companies that have kind of that whole story or at least parts of that story, packaged up together, right? I mean we do it at the MWare with some of our enterprise offerings around TKS and then Open Shift, at least in my mind, it does that as well. Maybe Nicholas you can speak to that a little bit? [0:29:27.3] NL: Yeah, so from an Open Shift perspective at least when I was using it, it was trying to be everything you would need to monitor, or to not monitor, but to run a container orchestration system, right? So it has a Docker registry built it. It has monitoring built it. It has some rudimentary charge built in, Ingress, all of these things that don’t necessarily come with Kubernetes like the option Kubernetes. It has a solution around that. And I think that is the difference between like project or just an orchestrator and a product. A product is trying to solve a grander enterprise problem versus a project or in this case, an orchestrator, is going to solve one problem and that problem is how do I get these containers to run in a way that my customers – not my customers really, my users expect them to run. [0:30:18.3] CC: Yeah, fair enough. [0:30:19.5] NL: And what do you think on the topic, Carlisia? [0:30:22.0] CC: Oh it sounds an awful lot to me like a product is you get money for it and the projects you don’t. [0:30:28.1] NL: That is actually very – you’re right, honestly that is really the main distinction. One of them is money based. [0:30:34.6] CC: But your description, the descriptions you make for it are very valid – it is very valid because a project by itself may not have enough value for let’s say companies and bundling this project with that project and the other project, which ultimately you’re building the product with a purpose, right? You will have a purpose with that product to have a specific audience for their product set of users. So it is very distinct from taking one part of that product and calling it a product because maybe it is not enough to address and solve problems. [0:31:20.3] JR: Yeah, I think that is an important distinction. It is almost like what Nicholas and I were talking about was more about the distinction between what an orchestrator is and what a full platform would be, right? And I think to Carlisia’s point about how we plug in the monitoring and stuff is really important because just like we were talking about with the cloud native landscape in our last podcast, Kubernetes is just one piece of the overall puzzle. Kubernetes isn’t your whole platform start to finish, right? It is just the container orchestration portion and you have a lot to build and hook into that to make it a full platform that your company might be onboarding developer workloads onto it. It is just really one piece of that overall puzzle. [0:32:01.0] CC: That is beautifully put Josh. [0:32:02.9] NL: Yeah, very nicely put. So I’ve got a question for you guys. We’ve been beating around the bush as it were but to me, it seems apparent that in the world of container orchestration, Kubernetes has come out on top. That isn’t to say that it’s the end, right? There could be something that comes out that actually beats Kubernetes, right? But for now, it seems like everyone is looking at Kubernetes and I am curious why it is that you think that – you all might think that Kubernetes took the top space. [0:32:32.7] CC: I am scratching my chin. [0:32:35.1] NL: Scratching chin emoji. [0:32:38.3] JR: Exactly, one thing for sure is I just think Kubernetes did the community thing really, really well and not that it is all about community. It is obviously about technical choices and things of that nature but I think they did, not to say they’re perfect, but they did a really good job of being very inclusive and getting people to join this community and give feedback and the structure of the special interest groups where people get together and focus on various areas of Kubernetes, like scheduling or cluster life cycle and things like that. And it is interesting because the community just grew so quickly in my mind, that it just made this massive push into the market because there were so many humans behind it pushing it along. So I think at least among other things, community was one of the biggest. [0:33:24.0] CC: I can’t say that I was paying attention in monitoring that space so I don’t know. Of course, I can make guesses, what Josh just said sounds very plausible that he had Google behind it. I am sure it didn’t hurt. Not that we need to be fan boys and fan girls of Google but having a company like that sponsor and put resources behind the project gives a signal that “Okay, this is going to be here for a while.” Even though Google has a reputation of discontinuing things, but at the same time, I think that is significant. What else? Definitely the community. I didn’t follow the community from the beginning so only this last year and something, almost two years that I have been working with Velero, that I get to see how the community is and it’s amazing. It’s crazy, so organized. Yeah and it is not perfect, nothing is perfect but it’s incredible. The enthusiasm and the organization and the transparency, it is amazing. [0:34:36.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely and I agree with actually both of your points. It’s corporate sponsorship not just Google I mean, I’ll get to this in a second and the community as well and also some of the functionality. But it was both the corporate sponsorship of Google and Red Hat in the early days and not to tap my old you know, “Yeah we did it.” But it Red Hat had a big play into early Kubernetes as a supporter and so what that did is establish, “Hey, Kubernetes is at least enterprised.” An enterprise perspective project, right? It is not just, “Hey, this is some open source project. It may or may not work. If it doesn’t, you are on your own.” If you had a company like Google and Red Hat who are both endorsing this project, suddenly enterprises were more interested in taking it onboard, like it was more of a viable concept. [0:35:29.4] CC: I’m glad you are here Nic to correct me and make that addition. [0:35:34.4] NL: Oh well, yeah I was not correcting you at all. I think – [0:35:37.2] CC: No because I didn’t clue into the fact that – I mean I see Red Hat all over the place but I don’t know the dimension of involvement that they had from the beginning, because at the beginning, I was an outsider to all of this. [0:35:50.8] NL: Yeah, so for perspective, Open Shift 300, which is when I first started getting into it, is based on Kubernetes 1-2, which is pretty early. They were big like they put a lot of resources into the development of the community and for the development of the functionality that exists, right? The horizontal pod auto-scale that we still use today is due in the large part to the contributions of Red Hat, right? The engineering at Red Hat is responsible for that piece, among other things. And so with them at play, kind of getting their community and Google’s community coming together and then able to organize this community that I think is a big piece of what took this off or what allowed Kubernetes to take off. That is how grammar works. There is also some pieces of functionality that I think were novel to Kubernetes in the early days, things like Ingres. The way the Kubelet worked was actually kind of unique, like how low level the commands that are being issued by the Kubelet were pretty unique. And so it allowed for people to adopt it like the things that were happening from the Kubelet perspective like changes to your IP tables, running a container, changing the C groups and all of these things, those are all well known by people at the time and so there wasn’t anything like arcane happening. It was just, “Hey, this process just runs these commands and that is how it reconciles say, right? And so I think that that kind of functionality really got people to trust what was happening. And so, you know it’s like I think the trust and transparency are the big things that people keyed into. The trust comes from the enterprise sponsorship, and also the fact that what was happening from a rudimentary standpoint was pretty simple and so people could wrap their heads around it and then transparency was having this community. Everything happens in the open, everything is recorded and accessible by everyone, right? It wasn’t just like some behind the scenes things happened. [0:37:50.7] JR: Yeah and I think that piece is super important, like Nicholas and I, we came from Coreless or our lineage around like open source Kubernetes is not too dissimilar. We spend a lot of time working with customers in pure upstream open source Kubernetes and actually taking some of their issues and requirements to the community and then helping shape the direction of Kubernetes in micro kind of ways, but still important ways to that company. And I think companies seeing through the CNCF and seeing through just community leadership and involvement that the things that they care about aren’t just going through a single vendor to make a decision as to whether that thing should be included, but it is being part of a larger community discussion, breeds a lot of confidence in this project in the long term. I think at the end of the day, we started with there will be container orchestrator that many of us use. Or maybe there will be a couple, right? There is no question, we need to solve container orchestration as an overall problem and companies are at this point where they are still placing a bet on what they want to use and because of the community, because of the involvement, because of the ability to adopt the project to potential business requirements, I feel like more large and small medium organizations are willing to put their money on Kubernetes as a whole. And I don’t think they felt as confident finding some other projects, like Open Stack and then historical Masos perhaps. I am just projecting based on conversations I’ve had but that is why I think a lot of folks are really excited about the future for Kubernetes. [0:39:21.3] NL: Yeah that is an excellent point. [0:39:23.0] CC: Let’s stick with the theme of projecting in the future and we are going to have to wrap up soon otherwise it is going to be a two hour, I mean this could be a two-hour show. But let’s not make our audience go through that. We’ll have part two. What about, we talk all the time, and people who are in this area, we talk about all the time how everybody knows Kubernetes and da-da-da, but I want to challenge you two, do you think that everybody knows Kubernetes? Everybody knows the purpose of Kubernetes, everybody knows if they should be using Kubernetes or not, how are people able to make an informed decision if they should be using Kubernetes? Because I don’t think everybody knows Kubernetes. I think the majority of companies, in terms of volume, because smaller companies I would guess they outnumber the bigger companies and technologists – I think a lot of people are not clear on what this is. That’s why we are here but what do we tell them? We have to have an episode to discover that, now that I am thinking about it, but we could wrap this up with some seed ideas for that. [0:40:46.9] NL: So that is a great idea and something that I’ve been playing around with introducing myself, is when do you not use container orchestration, right? Just because container orchestration exists doesn’t mean necessarily – [0:40:58.0] CC: If you don’t have containers. [0:40:59.1] NL: Yeah, one, if you don’t have containers. That is another starter. [0:41:02.5] CC: It is a real legit thing to say because some people ask me, “Should I start with Kubernetes or containers?” that’s the level of education that we must provide. [0:41:15.5] NL: Yeah, absolutely and that is something we actually run into a lot in the field is when we are engaging with our customers, part of our job is to help containerize their applications if they are not already there. Trying to help them do that in a logical manner. But for instance, to give an example, my fiancé’s company uses Docker, but they don’t use Kubernetes or any kind of orchestration because they don’t need to. Like the amount of the resources that they are going to be using and the amount of and the type of work that they are doing, it doesn’t make sense to use an orchestrator. I have actually talked to some of the engineers about it because they were like, “Oh tell me about this Kubernetes thing” and I’m like, “This is what it is” blah-blah-blah. I finally came up with a metaphor where it’s like your company uses the containers as a shovel. If we brought it into like, let us say we’re ploughing a field, right? You’ve got a plow, if you already use Kubernetes that would be like trying to plow the field with a nuclear bomb. It is way more complicated than you need to do. Sure, you can clear a lot of land with a giant bomb but that is way more than you guys need, right? And I think that for me that’s the drawing line. It is like if the complexity makes sense for you to do like, if you’re trying to all of a sudden, establish a farm. Not to say that you should use a bomb to plow land but hey, if you need to clear a lot of land a bomb can work, right? That is a terrible metaphor, I am sorry. That went off the rails really fast. [0:42:41.3] CC: It wasn’t too bad. [0:42:43.8] NL: I actually think that. [0:42:46.7] JR: I think, one thing that I will say and this is coming from experience working with organizations is let’s assume that you have justified Kubernetes for yourself, and by the way, I super echo everything that Nicholas just said, you have to be really careful and determine do you actually need to take this thing on? Because it is so hard to do in a lot of ways, right? But let us assume you have taken it on. I think an interesting thing to have empathy about as often times infrastructure dev ops people is you might know Kubernetes really, really well. But that doesn’t mean your thousands and thousands of developers have any idea what Kubernetes is at all and that is a massive disconnect we see in organizations all the time where they are trying to onboard folks onto Kubernetes, and they haven’t fully abstracted Kubernetes away, which some companies do and that could be a really good pattern too. Like developers deploy their apps, they don’t even know Kubernetes are running them under the hood. That is a really neat pattern as well. But assuming they are just trying to bring developers onto Kubernetes, they don’t really have the same amount of empathy for them and they just think like, “This should be really easy. It is just a bunch of yemel files, you’ll figure it out,” but they totally forget about all of the complexities that they originally learned about. Like how does pod to pod networking work and things like that. I just think that to your question Carlisia, it is interesting because one massive group in a company can know a lot about Kubernetes and forget what it was like to learn how something like Kubernetes or container orchestration worked. I think a lot of that is bridging the gap and really having some amount of education to bring everyone up to speed, even in the same organization. [0:44:21.2] CC: I am dying to have an episode on just that alone because it is quite challenging. When you are faced with Kubernetes, I mean the very first thing is that there are terminologies that you haven’t seen before and they’re like, “How does that map to what I already know?” and then sometimes it doesn’t map. It is completely new so. [0:44:43.1] JR: Yeah and when the benefits aren’t super obvious to you, it is really hard to get bought in and be willing to invest your own time and energy into it, right? And we forget that it is just not super obvious why Kubernetes makes sense for a lot of folks. [0:44:56.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely. That is a good point that even I sometimes forget like when someone says, “Well, why would I want Kubernetes?” I’m like, “Why wouldn’t you want Kubernetes?” like duh, it works so well in my brain why don’t you get it? But it is good to take a step back out of yourself and you know, be empathetic to the people you’re talking about in the community. I think Carlisia, you mentioned that we should be wrapping this up pretty soon and I think I totally agree. Before we go, I want to say if you want to contribute to any container orchestration about Kubernetes in specific since that is the one we want to work with the most, we totally encourage you to start contributing to these projects. Like with Kubernetes, we have the Kubernetes-Kubernetes Repo that has a lot of information on how to start contributing. I believe that Mesosphere has their own repos and the information online available for them. And I don’t know, I am not sure if there is much in a way of Docker or Swarm anymore that you can contribute to. I am not sure, but for Kubernetes, we have the Kubernetes-Kubernetes Repo and the Kubernetes Slack channel K8S at slack.k8s.io. Please join us and start talking about your container orchestration journey. [0:46:08.6] CC: And Kates by the way is K8S and I am going to say that because at some events and some people were up in the stage and they’re like, “Kates this, Kates that” and I am sitting with someone in the back and I’m like, “Who’s Kate?” [0:46:24.3] NL: Or I have seen people who are like, “K-eight-S” is the acronym and what that means is that there is eight letters between K and S in Kubernetes. That is all that means. I have seen some people do K8 and it drives me up every wall. I actually start constructing walls and it continues to drive me up them. I am in an infinite regression of walls. [0:46:44.6] CC: All right everybody, thank you for listening. It’s great that you are here, and we are going to be back with more cloud native goodness. [0:46:53.8] NL: Yeah, absolutely. All right, cheers. [0:46:56.0] JR: Thanks. [0:46:56.8] CC: Goodbye. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:46:58.7] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to the Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter @thepodlets and on the Podlets.io website where you will find transcripts and show notes. We’ll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END] [0:02:36.0] CC: I meditate too, it’s great. [0:02:38.2] NL: Yeah, it’s good. All right, anything interesting in the cloud native space that you guys have found in the last week? [0:02:43.6] CC: I have a talk that was accepted for KubeCon China. [0:02:47.4] NL: Awesome, congratulations. [0:02:49.6] JR: Congrats. [0:02:50.6] CC: Yeah, it’s a joint talk with Steven Wong also from Thea Moore. We’re going to talk about data recovery, data protection, recovery, migration in Velero. [0:03:03.9] NL: That’s great. He’s been coming to the Cloud Native Social Hour pretty regularly. That’s awesome to see some more cross interaction. [0:03:11.6] CC: Yeah, he is awesome, so knowledgeable. [0:03:14.0] NL: Great. And Josh? [0:03:15.5] JR: Very cool. I was actually looking this week since I’m in kind of the Kubernetes mindset, for something that can kind of add a TTL to any Kubernetes resource. So think of something like a service account in Kubernetes and I want to attach a TTL to it such that in four hours, it effectively got swept up and is no longer existent in the system. There’s some interesting ways that actually Kube ADM, one of the bootstrapping tools, does this. I was trying to kind of replicate that for their tokens, there’s a project by one of these Landau folks. Jacobs, I don’t know if that’s his last of first name, sorry in advance for butchering it, but he’s got a project called Kube Janitor that does effectively that. With annotations, you can put a TTL on them, your resources and then Kube Janitor will just come through and sweep that up. Which I thought a really cool idea. That was an interesting thing that I saw, it’s no new news, I think it’s been around for a while but it’s the first time that I had run into it. [0:04:07.6] NL: Nice. For me, our cohost Duffy, turned me on to a tool called Chaos Blade. Recently, I’ve been getting more and more into Chaos engineering and this is apparently an easy to use Chaos engineering toolkit. Something I’ve only just started looking at but I’m pretty excited. I’ll probably play around with that a bit more. [0:04:25.2] JR: Cool, awesome. [0:04:26.9] NL: Yeah, this week on the podcast, we are talking about container orchestration and kind of what that is, right? For me, container orchestration is the idea that you need your workloads to run somewhere but you don’t necessarily need to care where they’re running and the way that this has been done traditionally, prior to container orchestration, was like scheduling VM’s or making sure these processes run on certain computers, right? There’s a lot of automation around that like, when containers came around, we needed some way to make sure that they’re running and it also enabled us to not need to care so much about how things get started in all that. Everything was kind of packaged in a container I think. They need to just be some way to run them. That’s kind of where container orchestration came in, is that kind of your guys’ take on that as well? [0:05:18.3] CC: Yeah, basically, when we say we are orchestrating containers, we basically tell them how to behave, right? For example, I have this container here and I’m going to declare that if it fails, I want it to come back up in this container over there, if you fail just keep that state, don’t do anything and then I might say hey, I want two of you, three of you, I want to – the orchestration part is really just dictating behavior and state. [0:05:48.6] NL: Yeah, absolutely. [0:05:49.9] JR: Yeah. I think one interesting thing that came with the advent of containers is, we used to have this notion of you know, what server is my application going to land on or then eventually, you know, what virtual machine is my app eventually going to land on and we think kind of in this units of virtual machines and the paradigm shift a bit, at least in my experience has been now that you have the container unit and you can run many of those on one virtual machine, right? Your concern about orchestration is not just putting it on machine A and putting it on machine B but it’s kind of like packing multiple of this containers, perhaps on the same virtual machine or same host. The orchestration notion is beyond just the conventional system construct of a different host each time, it’s really interesting. [0:06:34.0] NL: Yeah, I think it might be important for us actually to take a step back. I realized I kind of jumped right into it, but we should probably settle what a container is, right? Before we can talk about how we can orchestrate them. A container is basically just a tar ball honestly. That is a packaged application with the instructions for it to run on any system that can accept that tar ball. Containers are broken down into a couple of Linux constructs, C groups and name space, so C groups four, making sure the process runs in its own dedicated memory and then or just like isolated memory. Then name spaces for things like network isolation. So that the network traffic that’s going on in the container doesn’t cross over to other processes. Very controlled process initiation based on these instruction. That’s kind of what a container is, a lot of people think that they’re like, kind of like a VM, I’ve heard that a few times where like, “Oh how do I deploy it?” What’s the VMDK for a container? It’s just a process that runs on a computer in a very controlled fashion, that’s literally it. [0:07:43.9] JR: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting to think like, at what point in which we kind of started using containers and seeing containers. I’d be curious for either two of you, Carlisia especially, what was your first exposure to the unit of a container and why were you starting to consider using a container versus just a virtual machine or a process? [0:08:03.0] CC: Frankly, I don’t remember. My first time seeing a container has been a long time but I don’t remember. But probably maybe trying to do some application like some toy application that – an example application. I remember that I was working on an application that we had the option to stuff it into a container as well, but I personally didn’t make the development. I wasn’t using it for development. My first usage of container really was about three years ago when I was working for CDN and a CDN as you might imagine has many different parts, so it has very low-level software running to higher level software, right? Really, sometimes, well, not sometimes, it has kernel level applications in systems, and it has API level system. For you to develop one part of it is it was really handy to be able to stuff our different systems into containers and have containers stuck to each other. We weren’t using the introduction. This was for development, but it was amazing, it was fantastic, we would have applications developed and go. Different systems that needed to talk to each other and we would have applications in C and I think that is to remember but it was amazing. Everything in containers and then we have a tool as well, they were sort of like Kubernetes, it wasn’t Kubernetes. It was developed in house. That orchestrated all of these things and you know, we simply failed, bringing back up and did a bunch of other things as well. I cannot explain the difference of working like that. It’s so much faster and so I could be a lot more autonomous, being able to run everything myself. I didn’t depend on having access to its server. I ran everything on my laptop, it was fantastic. [0:10:17.6] NL: Awesome. The first time I ran into a container was back when I was working for Red Hat, right when Open Shift Three CEO came out, that’s when Open Shift kind of moved from the in-house version of Open Shift to adopting Kubernetes. I had been working mostly in the virtualization like infrastructure world like doing a Red Hat enterprise virtualization manager, which is kind of like a Red Hat take on B Sphere, you know, kind of. I was very used to virtualization and spinning things up. There is some aspects of creating a VM and creating a container that were very similar. It took me awhile for my brain to click. Once I started using open chip to kind of click into like, “Oh this is how they’re different, right?” Whereas, if you’ve just started looking at it, “Well what’s kind of the difference?” They’re all just like, in my command line, they all just come up as like lists of units, right? This is a processing unit, that’s a processing unit right there. They’re kind of similar but once you start really getting into the use of it, it was so much different. I had heard like during this pr

google discover chaos managing uber ip ram quotes jacobs making sense api nic linux java vm duffy container swarm vit cpu containers ranchers episode two docker red hat kubernetes cdn landau orchestration cloud native ingress openstack ingres cncf k8s ttl tks mesos k8 mesosphere answerable announcer thank announcer welcome steven wong

Cloud Native (Ep 1)

CAM Matters with Betsy Barbieux

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 5, 2019 50:26

Welcome to the first episode of The Podlets Podcast! On the show today we’re kicking it off with some introductions to who we all are, how we got involved in VMware and a bit about our career histories up to this point. We share our vision for this podcast and explain the unique angle from which we will approach our conversations, a way that will hopefully illuminate some of the concepts we discuss in a much greater way. We also dive into our various experiences with open source, share what some of our favorite projects have been and then we define what the term “cloud native” means to each of us individually. The contribution that the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) is making in the industry is amazing, and we talk about how they advocate the programs they adopt and just generally impact the community. We are so excited to be on this podcast and to get feedback from you, so do follow us on Twitter and be sure to tune in for the next episode! Note: our show changed name to The Podlets. Follow us: https://twitter.com/thepodlets Hosts: Carlisia Campos Kris Nóva Josh Rosso Duffie Cooley Nicholas Lane Key Points from This Episode: An introduction to us, our career histories and how we got into the cloud native realm. Contributing to open source and everyone’s favorite project they have worked on. What the purpose of this podcast is and the unique angle we will approach topics from. The importance of understanding the “why” behind tools and concepts. How we are going to be interacting with our audience and create a feedback loop. Unpacking the term “cloud native” and what it means to each of us. Differentiating between the cloud native apps and cloud native infrastructure. The ability to interact with APIs as the heart of cloud natives. More about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation (CNCF) and their role in the industry. Some of the great things that happen when a project is donated to the CNCF. The code of conduct that you need to adopt to be part of the CNCF. And much more! Quotes: “If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget.” — @carlisia [0:12:54] “I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it.” — @mauilion [0:13:51] “When you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering.” — @krisnova [0:16:57] Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode: Kubernetes — https://kubernetes.io/The Podlets on Twitter — https://twitter.com/thepodlets VMware — https://www.vmware.com/Nicholas Lane on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-ross-laneRed Hat — https://www.redhat.com/CoreOS — https://coreos.com/Duffie Cooley on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mauilionApache Mesos — http://mesos.apache.org/Kris Nova on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/kris-novaSolidFire — https://www.solidfire.com/NetApp — https://www.netapp.com/us/index.aspxMicrosoft Azure — https://azure.microsoft.com/Carlisia Campos on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlisiaFastly — https://www.fastly.com/FreeBSD — https://www.freebsd.org/OpenStack — https://www.openstack.org/Open vSwitch — https://www.openvswitch.org/Istio — https://istio.io/The Kublets on GitHub — https://github.com/heptio/thekubeletsCloud Native Infrastructure on Amazon — https://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Native-Infrastructure-Applications-Environment/dp/1491984309Cloud Native Computing Foundation — https://www.cncf.io/Terraform — https://www.terraform.io/KubeCon — https://www.cncf.io/community/kubecon-cloudnativecon-events/The Linux Foundation — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/Sysdig — https://sysdig.com/opensource/falco/OpenEBS — https://openebs.io/Aaron Crickenberger — https://twitter.com/spiffxp Transcript: [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:08.1] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to The Podlets Podcast, a weekly show that explores Cloud Native one buzzword at a time. Each week, experts in the field will discuss and contrast distributed systems concept, practices, tradeoffs and lessons learned to help you on your cloud native journey. This space moves fast and we shouldn’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re an engineer, operator or technically minded decision maker, this podcast is for you. [EPISODE] [0:00:41.3] KN: Welcome to the podcast. [0:00:42.5] NL: Hi. I’m Nicholas Lane. I’m a cloud native Architect. [0:00:45.0] CC: Who do you work for, Nicholas? [0:00:47.3] NL: I've worked for VMware, formerly of Heptio. [0:00:50.5] KN: I think we’re all VMware, formerly Heptio, aren’t we? [0:00:52.5] NL: Yes. [0:00:54.0] CC: That is correct. It just happened that way. Now Nick, why don’t you tell us how you got into this space? [0:01:02.4] NL: Okay. I originally got into the cloud native realm working for Red Hat as a consultant. At the time, I was doing OpenShift consultancy. Then my boss, Paul, Paul London, left Red Hat and I decided to follow him to CoreOS, where I met Duffie and Josh. We were on the field engineering team there and the sales engineering team. Then from there, I found myself at Heptio and now with VMware. Duffie, how about you? [0:01:30.3] DC: My name is Duffie Cooley. I'm also a cloud native architect at VMware, also recently Heptio and CoreOS. I've been working in technologies like cloud native for quite a few years now. I started my journey moving from virtual machines into containers with Mesos. I spent some time working on Mesos and actually worked with a team of really smart individuals to try and develop an API in front of that crazy Mesos thing. Then we realized, “Well, why are we doing this? There is one that's called Kubernetes. We should jump on that.” That's the direction in my time with containerization and cloud native stuff has taken. How about you Josh? [0:02:07.2] JR: Hey, I’m Josh. I similar to Duffie and Nicholas came from CoreOS and then to Heptio and then eventually VMware. Actually got my start in the middleware business oddly enough, where we worked on the Egregious Spaghetti Box, or the ESB as it’s formally known. I got to see over time how folks were doing a lot of these, I guess, more legacy monolithic applications and that sparked my interest into learning a bit about some of the cloud native things that were going on. At the time, CoreOS was at the forefront of that. It was a natural progression based on the interests and had a really good time working at Heptio with a lot of the folks that are on this call right now. Kris, you want to give us an intro? [0:02:48.4] KN: Sure. Hi, everyone. Kris Nova. I've been SRE DevOps infrastructure for about a decade now. I used to live in Boulder, Colorado. I came out of a couple startups there. I worked at SolidFire, we went to NetApp. I used to work on the Linux kernel there some. Then I was at Deis for a while when I first started contributing to Kubernetes. We got bought by Microsoft, left Microsoft, the Azure team. I was working on the original managed Kubernetes there. Left that team, joined up with Heptio, met all of these fabulous folks. I think, I wrote a book and I've been doing a lot of public speaking and some other junk along the way. Yeah. Hi. What about you, Carlisia? [0:03:28.2] CC: All right. I think it's really interesting that all the guys are lined up on one call and all the girls on another call. [0:03:34.1] NL: We should have probably broken it up more. [0:03:36.4] CC: I am a developer and have always been a developer. Before joining Heptio, I was working for Fastly, which is a CDN company. They’re doing – helping them build the latest generation of their TLS management system. At some point during my stay there, Kevin Stuart was posting on Twitter, joined Heptio. At this point, Heptio was about, I don't know, between six months in a year-old. I saw those tweets go by I’m like, “Yeah, that sounds interesting, but I'm happy where I am.” I have a very good friend, Kennedy actually. He saw those tweets and here he kept saying to me, “You should apply. You should apply, because they are great people. They did great things. Kubernetes is so hot.” I’m like, “I'm happy where I am.” Eventually, I contacted Kevin and he also said, “Yeah, that it would be a perfect match.” two months later decided to apply. The people are amazing. I did think that Kubernetes was really hard, but my decision-making went towards two things. The people are amazing and some people who were working there I already knew from previous opportunities. Some of the people that I knew – I mean, I love everyone. The only thing was that it was an opportunity for me to work with open source. I definitely could not pass that up. I could not be happier to have made that decision now with VMware acquiring Heptio, like everybody here I’m at VMware. Still happy. [0:05:19.7] KN: Has everybody here contributed to open source before? [0:05:22.9] NL: Yup, I have. [0:05:24.0] KN: What's everybody's favorite project they've worked on? [0:05:26.4] NL: That's an interesting question. From a business aspect, I really like Dex. Dex is an identity provider, or a middleware for identity provider. It provides an OIDC endpoint for multiple different identity providers. You can absorb them into Kubernetes. Since Kubernetes only has an OIDC – only accepts OIDC job tokens for authentication, that functionality that Dex provides is probably my favorite thing. Although, if I'm going to be truly honest, I think right now the thing that I'm the most excited about working on is my own project, which is starting to join like me, joining into my interest in doing Chaos engineering. What about you guys? What’s your favorite? [0:06:06.3] KN: I understood some of those words. NL: Those are things we'll touch on on different episodes. [0:06:12.0] KN: Yeah. I worked on FreeBSD for a while. That was my first welcome to open source. I mean, that was back in the olden days of IRC clients and writing C. I had a lot of fun, and still I'm really close with a lot of folks in the FreeBSD community, so that always has a special place in my heart, I think, just that was my first experience of like, “Oh, this is how you work on a team and you work collaboratively together and it's okay to fail and be open.” [0:06:39.5] NL: Nice. [0:06:40.2] KN: What about you, Josh? [0:06:41.2] JR: I worked on a project at CoreOS. Well, a project that's still out there called ALB Ingress controller. It was a way to bring the AWS ALBs, which are just layer 7 load balancers and take the Kubernetes API ingress, attach those two together so that the ALB could serve ingress. The reason that it was the most interesting, technology aside, is just it went from something that we started just myself and a colleague, and eventually gained community adoption. We had to go through the process of just being us two worrying about our concerns, to having to bring on a large community that had their own business requirements and needs, and having to say no at times and having to encourage individuals to contribute when they had ideas and issues, because we didn't have the bandwidth to solve all those problems. It was interesting not necessarily from a technical standpoint, but just to see what it actually means when something starts to gain traction. That was really cool. Yeah, how about you Duffie? [0:07:39.7] DC: I've worked on a number of projects, but I find that generally where I fit into the ecosystem is basically helping other people adopt open source technologies. I spent a quite a bit of my time working on OpenStack and I spent some time working on Open vSwitch and recently in Kubernetes. Generally speaking, I haven't found myself to be much of a contributor to of code to those projects per se, but more like my work is just enabling people to adopt those technologies because I understand the breadth of the project more than the detail of some particular aspect. Lately, I've been spending some time working more on the SIG Network and SIG-cluster-lifecycle stuff. Some of the projects that have really caught my interest are things like, Kind which is Kubernetes in Docker and working on KubeADM itself, just making sure that we don't miss anything obvious in the way that KubeADM is being used to manage the infrastructure again. [0:08:34.2] KN: What about you, Carlisia? [0:08:36.0] CC: I realize it's a mission what I'm working on at VMware. That is coincidentally the project – the open source project that is my favorite. I didn't have a lot of experience with open source, just minor contributions here and there before this project. I'm working with Valero. It's a disaster recovery tool for Kubernetes. Like I said, it's open source. We’re coming up to version 1 pretty soon. The other maintainers are amazing, super knowledgeable and very experienced, mature. I have such a joy to work with them. My favorites. [0:09:13.4] NL: That's awesome. [0:09:14.7] DC: Should we get into the concept of cloud native and start talking about what we each think of this thing? Seems like a pretty loaded topic. There are a lot of people who would think of cloud native as just a generic term, we should probably try and nail it down here. [0:09:27.9] KN: I'm excited for this one. [0:09:30.1] CC: Maybe we should talk about what this podcast show is going to be? [0:09:34.9] NL: Sure. Yeah. Totally. [0:09:37.9] CC: Since this is our first episode. [0:09:37.8] NL: Carlisia, why don't you tell us a little bit about the podcast? [0:09:40.4] CC: I will be glad to. The idea that we had was to have a show where we can discuss cloud native concepts. As opposed to talking about particular tools or particular project, we are going to aim to talk about the concepts themselves and approach it from the perspective of a distributed system idea, or issue, or concept, or a cloud native concept. From there, we can talk about what really is this problem, what people or companies have this problem? What usually are the solutions? What are the alternative ways to solve this problem? Then we can talk about tools that are out there that people can use. I don't think there is a show that approaches things from this angle. I'm really excited about bringing this to the community. [0:10:38.9] KN: It's almost like TGIK, but turned inside out, or flipped around where TGIK, we do tools first and we talk about what exactly is this tool and how do you use it, but I think this one, we're spinning that around and we're saying, “No, let's pick a broader idea and then let's explore all the different possibilities with this broader idea.” [0:10:59.2] CC: Yeah, I would say so. [0:11:01.0] JR: From the field standpoint, I think this is something we often times run into with people who are just getting started with larger projects, like Kubernetes perhaps, or anything really, where a lot of times they hear something like the word Istio come out, or some technology. Often times, the why behind it isn't really considered upfront, it's just this tool exists, it's being talked about, clearly we need to start looking at it. Really diving into the concepts and the why behind it, hopefully will bring some light to a lot of these things that we're all talking about day-to-day. [0:11:31.6] CC: Yeah. Really focusing on the what and the why. The how is secondary. That's what my vision of this show is. [0:11:41.7] KN: I like it. [0:11:43.0] NL: That's something that really excites me, because there are a lot of these concepts that I talk about in my day-to-day life, but some of them, I don't actually think that I understand pretty well. It's those words that you've heard a million times, so you know how to use them, but you don't actually know the definition of them. [0:11:57.1] CC: I'm super glad to hear you say that mister, because as a developer in many not a system – not having a sysadmin background. Of course, I did sysadmin things as a developer, but not it wasn't my day-to-day thing ever. When I started working with Kubernetes, a lot of things I didn't quite grasp and that's a super understatement. I noticed that I mean, I can ask questions. No problem. I will dig through and find out and learn. The problem is that in talking to experts, a lot of the time when people, I think, but let me talk about myself. A lot of time when I ask a question, the experts jump right to the how. What is this? “Oh, this is how you do it.” I don't know what this is. Back off a little bit, right? Back up. I don't know what this is. Why is this doing this? I don't know. If you tell me the how before I understand what that even is, I'm going to forget. That's what's going to happen. I mean, it’s great you're trying to make an effort and show me the how to do something. This is personal, the way I learn. I need to understand the how first. This is why I'm so excited about this show. It's going to be awesome. This is what we’re going to talk about. [0:13:19.2] DC: Yeah, I agree. This is definitely one of the things that excites me about this topic as well, is that I find my secret super power is troubleshooting. That means that I can actually understand what the expected relationships between things should do, right? Rather than trying to figure out. Without really digging into the actual problem of stuff and what and the how people were going, or the people who were developing the code were trying to actually solve it, or thought about it. It's hard to get to the point where you fully understand that that distributed system. I think this is a great place to start. The other thing I'll say is that I firmly believe that you can't – that you don't understand a thing if you can't teach it. This podcast for me is about that. Let's bring up all the questions and we should enable our audience to actually ask us questions somehow, and get to a place where we can get as many perspectives on a problem as we can, such that we can really dig into the detail of what the problem is before we ever talk about how to solve it. Good stuff. [0:14:18.4] CC: Yeah, absolutely. [0:14:19.8] KN: Speaking of a feedback loop from our audience and taking the problem first and then solution in second, how do we plan on interacting with our audience? Do we want to maybe start a GitHub repo, or what are we thinking? [0:14:34.2] NL: I think a GitHub repo makes a lot of sense. I also wouldn't mind doing some social media malarkey, maybe having a Twitter account that we run or something like that, where people can ask questions too. [0:14:46.5] CC: Yes. Yes to all of that. Yeah. Having an issue list that in a repo that people can just add comments, praises, thank you, questions, suggestions for concepts to talk about and say like, “Hey, I have no clue what this means. Can you all talk about it?” Yeah, we'll talk about it. Twitter. Yes. Interact with those on Twitter. I believe our Twitter handle is TheKubelets. [0:15:12.1] KN: Oh, we already have one. Nice. [0:15:12.4] NL: Yes. See, I'm learning something new already. [0:15:15.3] CC: We already have. I thought you were all were joking. We have the Kubernetes repo. We have a github repo called – [0:15:22.8] NL: Oh, perfect. [0:15:23.4] CC: heptio/thekubelets. [0:15:27.5] DC: The other thing I like that we do in TGIK is this HackMD thing. Although, I'm trying to figure out how we could really make that work for us in a show that's recorded every week like this one. I think, maybe what we could do is have it so that when people can listen to the recording, they could go to the HackMD document, put questions in or comments around things if they would like to hear more about, or maybe share their perspectives about these topics. Maybe in the following week, we could just go back and review what came in during that period of time, or during the next session. [0:15:57.7] KN: Yeah. Maybe we're merging the HackMD on the next recording. [0:16:01.8] DC: Yeah. [0:16:03.3] KN: Okay. I like it. [0:16:03.6] DC: Josh, you have any thoughts? Friendster, MySpace, anything like that? [0:16:07.2] JR: No. I think we could pass on MySpace for now, but everything else sounds great. [0:16:13.4] DC: Do we want to get into the meat of the episode? [0:16:15.3] KN: Yeah. [0:16:17.2] DC: Our true topic, what does cloud native mean to all of us? Kris, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. You might have written a book about this? [0:16:28.3] KN: I co-authored a book called Cloud Native Infrastructure, which it means a lot of things to a lot of people. It's one of those umbrella terms, like DevOps. It's up to you to interpret it. I think in the past couple of years of working in the cloud native space and working directly at the CNCF as a CNCF ambassador, Cloud Native Computing Foundation, they're the open source nonprofit folks behind this term cloud native. I think the best definition I've been able to come up with is when you're designing software and you start your main function to be built around the cloud, or to be built around what the cloud enables us to do in the services a cloud to offer you, that is when you start to look at cloud native engineering. I think all cloud native infrastructure is, it's designing software that manages and mutates infrastructure in that same way. I think the underlying theme here is we're no longer caddying configurations disk and doing system D restarts. Now we're just sending HTTPS API requests and getting messages back. Hopefully, if the cloud has done what we expect it to do, that broadcast some broader change. As software engineers, we can count on those guarantees to design our software around. I really think that you need to understand that it's starting with the main function first and completely engineering your app around these new ideas and these new paradigms and not necessarily a migration of a non-cloud native app. I mean, you technically could go through and do it. Sure, we've seen a lot of people do it, but I don't think that's technically cloud native. That's cloud alien. Yeah. I don't know. That's just my thought. [0:18:10.0] DC: Are you saying that cloud native approach is a greenfield approach generally? To be a cloud native application, you're going to take that into account in the DNA of your application? [0:18:20.8] KN: Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. [0:18:23.1] CC: It's interesting that never said – mentioned cloud alien, because that plays into the way I would describe the meaning of cloud native. I mean, what it is, I think Nova described it beautifully and it's a lot of – it really shows her know-how. For me, if I have to describe it, I will just parrot things that I have read, including her book. What it means to me, what it means really is I'm going to use a metaphor to explain what it means to me. Given my accent, I’m obviously not an American born, and so I'm a foreigner. Although, I do speak English pretty well, but I'm not native. English is not my native tongue. I speak English really well, but there are certain hiccups that I'm going to have every once in a while. There are things that I'm not going to know what to say, or it's going to take me a bit long to remember. I rarely run into not understanding it, something in English, but it happens sometimes. That's the same with the cloud native application. If it hasn't been built to run on cloud native platforms and systems, you can migrate an application to cognitive environment, but it's not going to fully utilize the environments, like a native app would. That's my take. [0:19:56.3] KN: Cloud immigrant. [0:19:57.9] CC: Cloud immigrant. Is Nick a cloud alien? [0:20:01.1] KN: Yeah. [0:20:02.8] CC: Are they cloud native alien, or cloud native aliens. Yeah. [0:20:07.1] JR: On that point, I'd be curious if you all feel there is a need to discern the notion of cloud native infrastructure, or platforms, then the notion of cloud native apps themselves. Where I'm going with this, it's funny hearing the Greenfield thing and what you said, Carlisia, with the immigration, if you will, notion. Oftentimes, you see these very cloud native platforms, things, the amount of Kubernetes, or even Mesos or whatever it might be. Then you see the applications themselves. Some people are using these platforms that are cloud native to be a forcing function, to make a lot of their legacy stuff adopt more cloud native principles, right? There’s this push and pull. It's like, “Do I make my app more cloud native? Do I make my infrastructure more cloud native? Do I do them both at the same time?” Be curious what your thoughts are on that, or if that resonates with you at all. [0:21:00.4] KN: I've got a response here, if I can jump in. Of course, Nova with opinions. Who would have thought? I think what I'm hearing here, Josh is as we're using these cloud native platforms, we're forcing the hand of our engineers. In a world where we may be used to just send this blind DNS request out so whatever, and we would be ignorant of where that was going, now in the cloud native world, we know there's the specific DNS implementation that we can count on. It has this feature set that we can guarantee our software around. I think it's a little bit of both and I think that there is definitely an art to understanding, yes, this is a good idea to do both applications and infrastructure. I think that's where you get into this what it needs to be a cloud native engineer. Just in the same traditional legacy infrastructure stack, there's going to be good engineering choices you can make and there's going to be bad ones and there's many different schools of thought over do I go minimalist? Do I go all in at once? What does that mean? I think we're seeing a lot of folks try a lot of different patterns here. I think there's pros and cons though. [0:22:03.9] CC: Do you want to talk about this pros and cons? Do you see patterns that are more successful for some kinds of company versus others? [0:22:11.1] KN: I mean, I think going back to the greenfield thing that we were talking about earlier, I think if you are lucky enough to build out a greenfield application, you're able to bake in greenfield infrastructure management instead as well. That's where you get these really interesting hybrid applications, just like Kubernetes, that span the course of infrastructure and application. If we were to go into Kubernetes and say, “I wanted to define a service of type load balancer,” it’s actually going to go and create a load balancer for you and actually mutate that underlying infrastructure. The only way we were able to get that power and get that paradigm is because on day one, we said we're going to do that as software engineers; taking the infrastructure where you were hidden behind the firewall, or hidden behind the load balancer in the past. The software would have no way to reason about it. They’re blind and greenfield really is going to make or break your ability to even you take the infrastructure layers. [0:23:04.3] NL: I think that's a good distinction to make, because something that I've been seeing in the field a lot is that the users will do cloud native practices, but they’ll use a tool to do the cloud native for them, right? They'll use something along the lines of HashiCorp’s Terraform to create the VMs and the load balancers for them. It's something I think that people forget about is that the application themselves can ask for these resources as well. Terraform is just using an API and your code can use an API to the same API, in fact. I think that's an important distinction. It forces the developer to think a little bit like a sysadmin sometimes. I think that's a good melding of the dev and operations into this new word. Regrettably, that word doesn't exist right now. [0:23:51.2] KN: That word can be cloud native. [0:23:53.3] DC: Cloud here to me breaks down into a different set of topics as well. I remember seeing a talk by Brandon Phillips a few years ago. In his talk, he was describing – he had some numbers up on the screen and he was talking about the fact that we were going to quickly become overwhelmed by the desire to continue to develop and put out more applications for our users. His point was that every day, there's another 10,000 new users of the Internet, new consumers that are showing up on the Internet, right? Globally, I think it's something to the tune of about 350,000 of the people in this room, right? People who understand infrastructure, people who understand how to interact with applications, or to build them, those sorts of things. There really aren't a lot of people who are in that space today, right? We're surrounded by them all the time, but they really just globally aren't that many. His point is that if we don't radically change the way that we think about the development as the deployment and the management of all of these applications that we're looking at today, we're going to quickly be overrun, right? There aren't going to be enough people on the planet to solve that problem without thinking about the problem in a fundamentally different way. For me, that's where the cloud native piece comes in. With that, comes a set of primitives, right? You need some way to automate, or to write software that will manage other software. You need the ability to manage the lifecycle of that software in a resilient way that can be managed. There are lots of platforms out there that thought about this problem, right? There are things like Mesos, there are things like Kubernetes. There's a number of different shots on goal here. There are lots of things that I've really tried to think about that problem in a fundamentally different way. I think of those primitives that being able to actually manage the lifecycle of software, being able to think about packaging that software in such a way that it can be truly portable, the idea that you have some API abstraction that brings again, that portability, such that you can make use of resources that may not be hosted on your infrastructure on your own personal infrastructure, but also in the cloud, like how do we actually make that API contract so complete that you can just take that application anywhere? These are all part of that cloud native definition in my opinion. [0:26:08.2] KN: This is so fascinating, because the human race totally already learned this lesson with the Linux kernel in the 90s, right? We had all these hardware manufacturers coming out and building all these different hardware components with different interfaces. Somebody said, “Hey, you know what? There's a lot of noise going on here. We should standardize these and build a contract.” That contract then implemented control loops, just like in Kubernetes and then Mesos. Poof, we have the Linux kernel now. We're just distributed Linux kernel version 2.0. The human race is here repeating itself all over again. [0:26:41.7] NL: Yeah. It seems like the blast radius of Linux kernel 2.0 is significantly higher than the Linux kernel itself. That made it sound like I was like, pooh-poohing what you're saying. It’s more like, we're learning the same lesson, but at a grander scale now. [0:27:00.5] KN: Yeah. I think that's a really elegant way of putting it. [0:27:03.6] DC: You do raise a good point. If you are embracing on a cloud native infrastructure, remember that little changes are big changes, right? Because you're thinking about managing the lifecycle of a thousand applications now, right? If you're going full-on cloud native, you're thinking about operating at scale, it's a byproduct of that. Little changes that you might be able to make to your laptop are now big changes that are going to affect a fleet of thousand machines, right? [0:27:30.0] KN: We see this in Kubernetes all the time, where a new version of Kubernetes comes out and something totally unexpected happens when it is ran at scale. Maybe it worked on 10 nodes, but when we need to fire up a thousand nodes, what happens then? [0:27:42.0] NL: Yeah, absolutely. That actually brings up something that to me, defines cloud native as well. A lot of my definition of cloud native follows in suit with Kris Nova's book, or Kris Nova, because your book was what introduced me to the phrase cloud native. It makes sense that your opinion informs my opinion, but something that I think that we were just starting to talk about a little bit is also the concept of stability. Cloud native applications and infrastructure means coding with instability in mind. It's not being guaranteed that your VM will live forever, because it's on somebody else's hardware, right? Their hardware could go down, and so what do you do? It has to move over really quickly, has to figure out, have the guarantees of its API and its endpoints are all going to be the same no matter what. All of these things have to exist for the code, or for your application to live in the cloud. That's something that I find to be very fascinating and that's something that really excites me, is not trying to make a barge, but rather trying to make a schooner when you're making an app. Something that can, instead of taking over the waves, can be buffeted by the waves and still continue. [0:28:55.6] KN: Yeah. It's a little more reactive. I think we see this in Kubernetes a lot. When I interviewed Joe a couple years ago, Joe Beda for the book to get a quote from him, he said, this magic phrase that has stuck with me over the past few years, which is “goal-seeking behavior.” If you look at a Kubernetes object, they all use this concept in Go called embedding. Every Kubernetes object has a status in the spec. All it is is it’s what's actually going on, versus what did I tell it, what do I want to go on. Then all we're doing is just like you said with your analogy, is we're just trying to be reactive to that and build to that. [0:29:31.1] JR: That's something I wonder if people don't think about a lot. They don't they think about the spec, but not the status part. I think the status part is as important, or more important maybe than the spec. [0:29:41.3] KN: It totally is. Because I mean, a status like, if you have one potentiality for status, your control loop is going to be relatively trivial. As you start understanding more of the problems that you could see and your code starts to mature and harden, those statuses get more complex and you get more edge cases and your code matures and your code hardens. Then we can take that and globally in these larger cloud native patterns. It's really cool. [0:30:06.6] NL: Yeah. Carlisia, you’re a developer who's now just getting into the cloud native ecosystem. What are your thoughts on developing with cloud native practices in mind? [0:30:17.7] CC: I’m not sure I can answer that. When I started developing for Kubernetes, I was like, “What is a pod?” What comes first? How does this all fit together? I joined the project [inaudible 00:30:24]. I don't have to think about that. It's basically moving the project along. I don't have to think what I have to do differently from the way I did things before. [0:30:45.1] DC: One thing that I think you probably ran into in working with the application is the management of state and how that relates to – where you actually end up coupling that state. Before in development, you might just assume that there is a database somewhere that you would have to interact with. That database is a way of actually pushing that state off of the code that you're actually going to work with. In this way, that you might think of being able to write multiple consumers of state, or multiple things that are going to mutate state and all share that same database. This is one of the patterns that comes up all the time when we start talking about cloud native architectures, is because we have to really be very careful about how we manage that state and mainly, because one of the other big benefits of it is the ability to horizontally scale things that are going to mutate, or consume state. [0:31:37.5] CC: My brain is in its infancy as it relates to Kubernetes. All that I see is APIs all the way down. It's just APIs all the way down. It’s not very different than as a developer for me, is not very much more complex than developing against the database that sits behind. Ask me again a year from now and I will have a more interesting answer. [0:32:08.7] KN: This is so fascinating, right? I remember a couple years ago when Kubernetes was first coming out and listening to some of the original “Elders of Kubernetes,” and even some of the stuff that we were working on at this time. One of the things that they said was we hope one day, somebody doesn't have to care about what's passed these APIs and gets to look at Kubernetes as APIs only. Then they hear that come from you authentically, it's like, “Hey, that's our success statement there. We nailed it.” It's really cool. [0:32:37.9] CC: Yeah. I don’t understood their patterns and I probably should be more cognizant about these patterns are, even if it's just to articulate them. To me, my day-to-day challenge is understanding the API, understanding what library call do I make to make this happen and how – which is just programming 101 almost. Not different from any other regular project. [0:33:10.1] JR: Yeah. That is something that's nice about programming with Kubernetes in mind, because a lot of times you can use the source code as documentation. I hate to say that particularly is a non-developer. I'm a sysadmin first getting into development and documentation is key in my mind. There's been more than a few times where I'm like, “How do I do this?” You can look in the source code for pretty much any application that you're using that's in Kubernetes, or around the Kubernetes ecosystem. The API for that application is there and it'll tell you what you need to do, right? It’s like, “Oh, this is how you format your config file. Got it.” [0:33:47.7] CC: At the same time, I don't want to minimize that knowing what the patterns are is very useful. I haven't had to do any design for Valero for our projects. Maybe if I had, I would have to be forced to look into that. I'm still getting to know the codebase and developing features, but no major design that I had to lead at least. I think with time, I will recognize those patterns and it will make it easier for me to understand what is happening. What I was saying is that not understanding the patterns that are behind the design of those APIs doesn't preclude me at all so call against it, against them. [0:34:30.0] KN: I feel this is the heart of cloud native. I think we totally nailed it. The heart of cloud native is in the APIs and your ability to interact with the APIs. That's what makes it programmable and that's what makes – gives you the interface for you and your software to interact with that. [0:34:45.1] DC: Yeah, I agree with that. API first. On the topic of cloud native, what about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation? What are our thoughts on the CNCF and what is the CNCF? Josh, you have any thoughts on that? [0:35:00.5] JR: Yeah. I haven't really been as close to the CNCF as I probably should, to be honest with you. One of the great things that the CNCF has put together are programs around getting projects into this, I don't know if you would call it vendor neutral type program. Maybe somebody can correct me on that. Effectively, there's a lot of different categories, like networking and storage and runtimes for containers and things of that nature. There's a really cool landscape that can show off a lot of these different technologies. A lot of the categories, I'm guessing we'll be talking about on this podcast too, right? Things like, what does it mean to do cloud native networking and so on and so forth? That's my purview of the CNCF. Of course, they put on KubeCon, which is the most important thing to me. I'm sure someone else on this call can talk deeper at an organization level what they do. [0:35:50.5] KN: I'm happy to jump in here. I've been working with them for I think three years now. I think first, it's important to know that they are a subsidiary of the Linux Foundation. The Linux Foundation is the original open source, nonprofit here, and then the CNCF is one of many, like Apache is another one that is underneath the broader Linux Foundation umbrella. I think the whole point of – or the CNCF is to be this neutral party that can help us as we start to grow and mature the ecosystem. Obviously, money is going to be involved here. Obviously, companies are going to be looking out for their best interest. It makes sense to have somebody managing the software that is outside, or external of these revenue-driven companies. That's where I think the CNCF comes into play. I think that's its main responsibility is. What happens when somebody from company A and somebody from Company B disagree with the direction that the software should go? The CNCF can come in and say, “Hey, you know what? Let's find a happy medium in here and let's find a solution that works for both folks and let's try to do this the best we can.” I think a lot of this came from lessons we learned the hard way with Linux. In a weird way, we did – we are in version 2.0, but we were able to take advantage of some of the priority here. [0:37:05.4] NL: Do you have any examples of a time in the CNCF jumped in and mediated between two companies? [0:37:11.6] KN: Yeah. I think the steering committee, the Kubernetes steering committee is a great example of this. It's a relatively new thing. It hasn't been around for a very long time. You look at the history of Kubernetes and we used to have this incubation process that has since been retired. We've tried a lot of solutions and the CNCF has been pretty instrumental and guiding the shape of how we're going to manage, solve governance for such a monolithic project. As Kubernetes grows, the problem space grows and more people get involved. We're having to come up with new ways of managing that. I think that's not necessarily a concrete example of two specific companies, but I think that's more of as people get involved, the things that used to work for us in the past are no longer working. The CNCF is able to recognize that and guide us out of that. [0:37:57.2] DC: Cool. That’s such a very good perspective on the CNCF that I didn't have before. Because like Josh, my perspective with CNCF was well, they put on that really cool party three times a year. [0:38:07.8] KN: I mean, they definitely are great at throwing parties. [0:38:12.6] NL: They are that. [0:38:14.1] CC: My perspective of the CNCF is from participating in the Kubernetes meetup here in San Diego. I’m trying to revive our meetup, which is really hard to do, but different topic. I know that they try to make it easier for people to find meetups, because they have on meetup.com, they have an organization. I don't know what the proper name is, but if you go there and you put your zip code, you'll find any meetup that's associated with them. My meetup here in San Diego is associated, can be easily found. They try to give a little bit of money for swags. We also give out ads for meetup. They offer help for finding speakers and they also have a speaker catalog on their website. They try to help in those ways, which I think is very helpful, very valuable. [0:39:14.9] DC: Yeah, I agree. I know about CNCF, mostly just from interacting with folks who are working on its behalf. Working at meeting a bunch of the people who are working on the Kubernetes project, on behalf of the CNCF, folks like Ihor and people like that, which are constantly amazingly with the amount of work that they do on behalf of the CNCF. I think it's been really good seeing what it means to provide governance over a project. I think that really highlights – that's really highlighted by the way that Kubernetes itself has managed. I think a lot of us on the call have probably worked with OpenStack and remember some of the crazy battles that went on between vendors around particular components in that stack. I've yet to actually really see that level of noise creep into the Kubernetes situation. I think squarely on the CNCF around managing governance, and also run the community for just making it accessible enough thing that people can plug into it, without actually having to get into a battle about taking ownership of CNI, for example. Nobody should own CNI. That should be its own project under its own governance. How you satisfy the needs for something like container networking should be a project that you develop as a company, and you can make the very best one that you could make it even attract as many customers to that as you want. Fundamentally, the way that your interface to that major project should be something that is abstracted in such a way that it isn't owned by any one company. There should be a contact in an API, that sort of thing. [0:40:58.1] KN: Yeah. I think the best analogy I ever heard was like, “We’re just building USB plugs.” [0:41:02.8] DC: That's actually really great. [0:41:05.7] JR: To that point Duffie, I think what's interesting is more and more companies are looking to the CNCF to determine what they're going to place their bets on from a technology perspective, right? Because they've been so burned historically from some project owned by one vendor and they don't really know where it's going to end up and so on and so forth. It's really become a very serious thing when people consider the technologies they're going to bet their business on. [0:41:32.0] DC: Yeah. When a project is absorbed into the CNCF, or donated to the CNCF, I guess. There are a number of projects that this has happened to. Obviously, if you see that iChart that is the CNCF landscape, there's just tons of things happening inside of there. It's a really interesting process, but I think that from my part, I remember recently seeing Sysdig Falco show up in that list and seeing them donate – seeing Sysdig donate Falco to the CNCF was probably one of the first times that I've actually have really tried to see what happens when that happens. I think that some of the neat stuff here that happens is that now this is an open source project. It's under the governance of the CNCF. It feels to me more an approachable project, right? I don't feel I have to deal with Sysdig directly to interact with Falco, or to contribute to it. It opens that ecosystem up around this idea, or the genesis of the idea that they built around Falco, which I think is really powerful. What do you all think of that? [0:42:29.8] KN: I think, to look at it from a different perspective, that's one example of when the CNCF helps a project liberate itself. There's plenty of other examples out there where the CNCF is an opt-in feature, that is only there if we need it. I think cluster API, which I'm sure we're going to talk about this in a later episode. I mean, just a quick overview is a lot of different vendors implementing the same API and making that composable and modular. I mean, nowhere along the way in the history of that project has the CNCF had to come and step in. We’ve been able to operate independently of that. I think because the CNCF is even there, we all are under this working agreement of we're going to take everybody's concerns into consideration and we're going to take everybody’s use case in some consideration, work together as an ecosystem. I think it's just even having that in place, whether or not you use it or not is a different story. [0:43:23.4] CC: Do you all know any project under the CNCF? [0:43:26.1] KN: I have one. [0:43:27.7] JR: Well, I've heard of this one. It's called Kubernetes. [0:43:30.1] CC: Is it called Kubernetes or Kubernetes? [0:43:32.8] JR: It’s called Kubernetes. [0:43:36.2] CC: Wow. That’s not what Duffie thinks. [0:43:38.3] DC: I don’t say it that way. No, it's been pretty fascinating seeing just the breadth of projects that are under there. In fact, I was just recently noticing that OpenEBS is up for joining the CNCF. There seems to be – it's fascinating that the things that are being generated through the CNCF and going through that life cycle as a project sometimes overlap with one another and it's very – it seems it's a delicate balance that the CNCF would have to play to keep from playing favorites. Because part of the charter of CNCF is to promote the project, right? I'm always curious to see and I'm fascinated to see how this plays out as we see projects that are normally competitive with one another under the auspice of the same organization, like a CNCF. How do they play this in such a way that they remain neutral, even it would – it seems like it would take a lot of intention. [0:44:39.9] KN: Yeah. Well, there's a difference between just being a CNCF project and being an official project, or a graduated project. There's different tiers. For instance, Kubicorn, a tool that I wrote, we just adopted the CNCF, like I think a code of conduct and there was another file I had to include in the repo and poof, were magically CNCF now. It's easy to get onboard. Once you're onboard, there's legal implications that come with that. There totally is this tier ladder stature that I'm not even super familiar with. That’s how officially CNCF you can be as your product grows and matures. [0:45:14.7] NL: What are some of the code of conduct that you have to do to be part of the CNCF? [0:45:20.8] KN: There's a repo on it. I can maybe find it and add it to the notes after this, but there's this whole tutorial that you can go through and it tells you everything you need to add and what the expectations are and what the implications are for everything. [0:45:33.5] NL: Awesome. [0:45:34.1] CC: Well, Valero is a CNCF project. We follow the what is it? The covenant? [0:45:41.2] KN: Yeah, I think that’s what it is. [0:45:43.0] CC: Yes. Which is the same that Kubernetes follows. I am not sure if there can be others that can be adopted, but this is definitely one. [0:45:53.9] NL: Yeah. According to Aaron Crickenberger, who was the Release Lead for Kubernetes 1.14, the CNCF code of conduct can be summarized as don't be a jerk. [0:46:06.6] KN: Yeah. I mean, there's more to it than that, but – [0:46:10.7] NL: That was him. [0:46:12.0] KN: Yeah. This is something that I remember seeing an open source my entire career, open source comes with this implication of you need to be well-rounded and polite and listen and be able to take others’ just thoughts and concerns into consideration. I think we just are getting used to working like that as an engineering industry. [0:46:32.6] NL: Agreed. Yeah. Which is a great point. It's something that I hadn't really thought of. The idea of development back in the day, it seems like before, there was such a thing as the CNCF are cloud native. It seemed that things were combative, or people were just trying to push their agenda as much as possible. Bully their way through. That doesn't seem that happens as much anymore. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? [0:46:58.9] DC: I think what you're highlighting is more the open source piece than the cloud native piece, which I – because I think that when you're working – open source, I think has been described a few times as a force multiplier for software development and software adoption. I think of these things are very true. If you look at a lot of the big successful closed source projects, they have – the way that people in this room and maybe people listening to this podcast might perceive them, it's definitely just fundamentally differently than some open source project. Mainly, because it feels it's more of a community-driven thing and it also feels you're not in a place where you're beholden to a set of developers that you don't know that are not interested in your best, and in what's best for you, or your organization to achieve whatever they set out to do. With open source, you can be a part of the voice of that project, right? You can jump in and say, “You know, it would really be great if this thing has this feature, or I really like how you would do this thing.” It really feels a lot more interactive and inclusive. [0:48:03.6] KN: I think that that is a natural segue to this idea of we build everything behind the scenes and then hey, it's this new open source project, that everything is done. I don't really think that's open source. We see some of these open source projects out there. If you go look at the git commit history, it's all everybody from the same company, or the same organization. To me, that's saying that while granted the source code might be technically open source, the actual act of engineering and architecting the software is not done as a group with multiple buyers into it. [0:48:37.5] NL: Yeah, that's a great point. [0:48:39.5] DC: Yeah. One of the things I really appreciate about Heptio actually is that all of the projects that we developed there were – that the developer chat for that was all kept in some neutral space, like the Kubernetes Slack, which I thought was really powerful. Because it means that not only is it open source and you can contribute code to a project, but if you want to talk to people who are also being paid to develop that project, you can just go to the channel and talk to them, right? It's more than open source. It's open community. I thought that was really great. [0:49:08.1] KN: Yeah. That's a really great way of putting it. [0:49:10.1] CC: With that said though, I hate to be a party pooper, but I think we need to say goodbye. [0:49:16.9] KN: Yeah. I think we should wrap it up. [0:49:18.5] JR: Yeah. [0:49:19.0] CC: I would like to re-emphasize that you can go to the issues list and add requests for what you want us to talk about. [0:49:29.1] DC: We should also probably link our HackMD from there, so that if you want to comment on something that we talked about during this episode, feel free to leave comments in it and we'll try to revisit those comments maybe in our next episode. [0:49:38.9] CC: Exactly. That's a good point. We will drop a link the HackMD page on the corresponding issue. There is going to be an issue for each episode, so just look for that. [0:49:51.8] KN: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining everyone. [0:49:54.1] NL: All right. Thank you. [0:49:54.6] CC: Thank you. I'm really glad to be here. [0:49:56.7] DC: Hope you enjoyed the episode and I look forward to a bunch more. [END OF EPISODE] [0:50:00.3] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for listening to The Podlets Cloud Native Podcast. Find us on Twitter https://twitter.com/ThePodlets and on the https://thepodlets.io, where you'll find transcripts and show notes. We'll be back next week. Stay tuned by subscribing. [END]See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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E2: How your HOA is and isn't like a municipality

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 17, 2019 15:07

Betsy Barbieux explains how the community association is structured like a municipality. However, the board of directors doesn't function as a representative form of government. While a city council represents the citizens, a community association board's sole responsibility is to follow the statutes and bylaws of the community. TRANSCRIPT Betsy - Hi, I'm Betsy, and in today's episode of CAM Matters, we are going to finish our history lesson of how we got here, how we ended up with all of these condos, co-ops and HOAs, and we'll end with an analogy to a municipality. Ooh, that rhymes. Betsy - Stay tuned. Announcer - Welcome to CAM Matters, Condos, Co-ops, HOAs and Beyond. Betsy Barbieux is an information leader in Florida on community association living, rights and obligations. She is an expert on the rights and obligations of owners, as well as the association. If you live or are planning to live in the state of Florida, there's a good chance you'll be part of a community association. And by the end of this show, you'll know a little bit more about community associations and why they matter. Suzanne - Well, welcome. We're glad that you're joining us for another episode of CAM Matters. I'm Suzanne Lynn, the host, and Betsy Barbieux. We are glad that you're here. You're the expert. So we're gonna just dive right in. And we kinda left off on the first episode of how did we even come to having community associations. And I think that we left off in the first episode on, we were in Miami and we were talking about corporations and boards. Betsy - Yes, we were. We were having a history lesson-- Suzanne - That's right. Betsy - That went all the way back to the 1960s. Suzanne - This is why we need to do it in two segments, 'cause as far as a student goes, I need a little more time to digest. So let's go ahead and pick that up. Betsy - Where we were with our last episode was talking about the developers in Miami creating community associations, corporations, and selling stacked air. Suzanne - Right, right, that's what it is, yeah. Betsy - It is, stacked air, and it was a little odd. The legislators told the developers that they could not create those kinds of communities anymore until they first created a Florida corporation. And we talked last time about corporations having board of directors, and that the board of directors and the documents, and I brought some with me today, I brought props. Suzanne - There ya go. Betsy - The board of directors has a threefold mandate from the legislature, and that is to protect the property and its value, maintain the things that are used in common, like swimming pools or exteriors of buildings, and enforce the restrictions on the owner's use rights. Suzanne - Okay, so protect, maintain and enforce. Betsy - Enforce, that's the purpose of the corporation, which means that's the purpose of the board of directors. That's their mission statement. And I call it the presumed statutory mission statement. And just as a little tease, that will be the purpose of the board meetings. And in another episode, we'll talk about board meetings. Suzanne - Oh, boy, I bet that's gonna be very interesting 'cause I've been to some and I know-- Betsy - At a board meeting. We'll talk about those. We'll talk about those. But the purpose of the board meeting and the purpose of the board is to fulfill the mandate of the statutes and of the documents. Now when I say documents, I wanna just show you what I'm talking about. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Because when I say condominium, I think most people see a building. Suzanne - Definitely, yep. Tall. Betsy - Tall building. And I think when I say homeowner associations-- Suzanne - I see a house and a yard. Betsy - A house and a yard, garage. If I say co-op, you probably have no clue. Suzanne - I have, no, no. Betsy - Most people-- Suzanne - I think of, like, a farmers market or something. Betsy - My dad was a citrus broker, and he had citrus farmer, growers, co-ops, but that is not this. That is not this. Suzanne - So what do you see when you say these words? Betsy - Well, when I say these words, I see that this is a condo. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - It's paper. This is a co-op. Suzanne - Hm. Betsy - And this is your homeowner association. Suzanne - Wow. Suzanne - So when I'm saying--Where's the bathroom? I can't see that. Where's my coffee pot? Betsy - Where's my grass? Suzanne - Yeah. Betsy - This is a homeowner's association, this is a co-op, and this is a condominium. All these papers are recorded in the public records, those that relate to your community, you have a set of these, and they are in the public records at the county courthouse. So you do have access to these, and you likely have a copy of these and you need a copy of these. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - But the point is, is that this community is a legal structure. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - And it has rules and laws and paper to follow. And that's the goal Betsy - Lots of paper. of the board of directors, is to serve the papers. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - But in those early days, as the developers were building, what the legislator said to themselves was, "You know what? We've made them have a corporation. "It has a board of directors, "has a threefold mission statement, "but every corporation needs people." Betsy - Right So from now on, anyone who buys into one of these communities, whether it's a condo, co-op or HOA, when they buy into this community, you have become a mandatory member of the corporation. And that means that you have just become contractually obligated to everything that's in here. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - You have now just agreed that you will abide by everything that's in here. I don't think that it's quite put that way to buyers when they move in. Suzanne - It's never been to me as we moved in, no. Betsy - But this is a contract. It's a legally binding contract. When you moved here, you agreed to everything in it, which again, and maybe I'll just give a little tease for that, but another episode, we can talk about violations and enforcement. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Because if you violate something here, it's gonna be the board's duty to enforce compliance. We always hope for voluntary compliance. Suzanne - Sure. Betsy - but if not, you will have violated the contractual provisions here. So let's keep goin'. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - We've got a corporation, has a mandate. We know it's got a board of directors, and the corporation now has people. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - All of the owners belong to the corporation. But think about in those early days, another huge issue would have been money. Suzanne - Sure. Betsy - Where's the money to pay to fix stuff? Suzanne - Right. To protect, to maintain and enforce. Betsy - To protect, maintain and enforce. You're learnin' something! Suzanne - I know! I'm getting it! Look at you! You're doin' so good! So where does the money come from? The legislators gave the corporation the ability to, and I'm gonna use the word very loosely. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Okay, to 'tax.' Betsy - Okay. It's people. And the statute and your documents will call that 'tax' the assessment. The assessment is the regular amount of money that an owner pays for their share of protecting, and maintaining, and enforcing. Betsy - And enforcing! Yes! It's what they pay for their share of that. You likely in your community call that fee, that assessment, a condo fee, HOA fee, dues, amenities fees, maintenance fee. You might call it somethin' else, but the statute and your documents likely call it assessment. So that's the word I'm gonna use. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - And that is just the regular amount of money that an owner pays for their share of the protection, maintenance, and enforcemnt. Suzanne - And enforcement. We've gotta do it in that order, or else I'm gonna mess it up. Betsy - I'm gonna mess it up too. But can you imagine that there had to be at least one person in South Florida who just kinds folded their arms and said, "Make me pay." Suzanne - Ooh. Betsy - Yeah. Suzanne - Yeah. Betsy - So the legislators said, "Okay!" Suzanne - We can do that! Betsy - Okay! Okay! We can do that! So the legislators gave the corporation, whether it's a condo, co-op, or HOA, gave the corporation the lien right, the L-I-E-N right. Betsy - Okay. Betsy - Which is the ability to take your home from you. Suzanne- So this is serious? Betsy - This is serious. Suzanne - This is a foundation of you buying your home Betsy - This is serious. or property-- Betsy - Now I don't know how much more plainly to say it, but if you don't comply, and we go through a legal procedure, we will take your home. I don't know how else to say that. It was the original intent, I believe, of the legislature, that the corporation would always be made whole, for every penny that's due to it. So every penny. Because we need the money to maintain things. Suzanne - Right, right. Betsy - So the-- Betsy - Honestly it just takes one crack and the whole thing falls apart, right? I mean, everybody's gotta-- Betsy - Stucco falls off buildings-- Suzanne - Right! Exactly. Betsy - And if you're on the coast, you're gonna be in constant need of concrete restoration, rebar, all those kinds of things, all the balcony railing, all those things are gonna rust and rot and they're gonna need to be replaced, so, yes. If you're interior, in the interior part of Florida, you don't have those-- Suzanne - Right. kinds of maintenance issues Betsy - But there's always stuff. Yeah. Betsy - Yeah. It doesn't take much. If you look at at what we have just described, we have actually described something that is similar to a municipality. Suzanne - In the way of paying taxes. Betsy - Well, think about this. The whole setup. The board of directors would be similar to the city council. Betsy - Okay. The city manager would be me, the CAM. The city so to speak, the community, serves a geographic area for which the residents pay. And if you don't pay, we cut you off, so to speak. Suzanne - Right, right. Betsy - So it's similar to a municipality, except for one thing. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - And this is really big, because this is where it is so totally misunderstood. This is not a representative form of government. Where your city councilman may represent your district, your part of the town, or the county commissioner may represent your part of the county, the board of directors does not represent the people. Suzanne - It sounds like the board of directors, or the board, is to enforce. To make sure the rules, no matter. They're not to coddle to the-- Suzanne - No. the residents. Betsy - And cannot. Betsy - Right, okay. Betsy - And this is where boards stall in making decisions. Because they think they're supposed to bow to the wishes of the people, and this group over here wants this, and this group over here wants that, and all I wanna know is, what are your documents say and what are the statutes? Suzanne - That's the North Star. Betsy - This, it's kinda like we're boxed in with the decisions. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - We're boxed in by statues, Florida administrative code, and documents. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - And the board can only act in that box. Suzanne - So there's really no opinion. It's right there. Betsy - No, and, you know, and it's not that we don't wanna hear from the people. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - We do wanna hear from the people, but we can't do everything that you want done. The board is restricted. So it's not a representative form of government. It's not really, in a sense, like a true democracy, that if a majority of the owners all vote to do something, it doesn't mean it can be done. Suzanne - Right, right. Betsy - You go back-- Suzanne - You have to go back to this, and go back to the statutes. Suzanne - So one thing as we're kinda wrapping up this show, you had said that this is almost under under every one of your homes, in a way. Can you explain what you mean by that? Betsy - Each of these sets, in every community in Florida, that is a community association, has one of these. They're recorded in the public records. And I'm kinda visual, so the way I see that, is that when they're recorded, they're buried in the ground. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Underneath the community. And so these run with the land. It's the term that we use, 'runs with the land,' and as the homes, or the units in the condominiums sell and buy, sell and buy, sell and buy, the deeds sit on top, and they change from owner to owner, to owner. But these run with the land. They never leave. They run with the land. And because they are recorded in the public records, you know what? Suzanne - What? Betsy - That makes 'em public. Suzanne - Well that's a good title for it then. Betsy - They're not hidden. They're not hidden. These can be easily found by anyone who wishes to search for them. Suzanne - So they say, "No excuse. "It was available to you, "you could see it." Betsy - And you know what Suzanne - that's like? Betsy - Mmm mmm. Betsy - It's like the publicly posted speed limit sign. There is a presumption of knowledge of these. Because they are publicly posted. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Similarly, there is a public, there is an acknowledgement, presumption, of the publicly posted speed limit sign. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - If you pass a speed limit sign back there ten miles ago out on the back road, and the deputy sheriff stops you and says, "Ma'am, do you know how fast you were goin'?" Is ignorance an excuse? Suzanne - No. Betsy - Likely not. Suzanne - No, no. Same thing. Betsy - Likely not. When you get behind the seat, in the driver's seat of a car, you're presumed to know all the Florida driver's handbook rules. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - The same is true here. The presumption of knowledge is that you know about these because they are publicly posted. Suzanne - Wow. Betsy - And when an owner is approached and asked to voluntarily comply to something in here, their first excuse is, "Well, I don't know anything about those." Suzanne - Well, it's-- Betsy - Well, yes you do. Yes you do. Because you became contractually obligated to everything in here, and acknowledged them, whether you know it or not, acknowledged them as soon as you signed on the dotted line. Suzanne - Whew. That was a lot. We covered a lot. Betsy - That's a lot. And you know, I love the comparison to a municipality. That all makes a lot of sense. And what I'm taking away from this show is no excuses. It's public and your bound-- Betsy - And it's the board's duty. And if the board doesn't make one person comply, then it's-- Betsy - It all falls apart. Betsy - We're supposed to be equitable in enforcing the compliance and we can't let one go around it, and then enforce on another. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - That really makes for bad neighbors. Suzanne - It sure does. That was great, awesome. Thank you Betsy, I enjoyed that one, yeah. Betsy - You're welcome. And that's why CAM matters. Announcer - Thank you for listening to CAM matters. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. For more information, feel free to email Betsy at betsy@floridacamschools.com or visit the Florida CAM Schools website at www.floridacamschools.com. Information provided on this show is general in nature and does not constitute legal advice. Please contact a licensed attorney for your specific situation.

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E4: Community association rule enforcement and why it matters

CAM Matters with Betsy Barbieux

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 17, 2019 17:35

The purpose of restrictions in a community association is to maintain the lifestyle and the look of the community. That's one of the reasons homes in associations are valued at 5 to 6 percent more than those in non-association neighborhoods. Betsy Barbieux explains how enforcement is an important responsibility and a necessary evil. TRANSCRIPT Betsy - Hi, I'm Betsy, and welcome to CAM Matters. Today, we're going to be talking about enforcement and why that matters. [Announcer] Welcome to CAM Matters. Condos, co-ops, HOAs, and beyond. Betsy Barbieux is an informational leader in Florida on community association living, rights, and obligations. She is an expert on the rights and obligations of owners, as well as the association. If you live or are planning to live in the state of Florida, there's a good chance you'll be part of a community association. And by the end of this show, you'll know a little bit more about community associations and why they matter. Suzanne - Hi, welcome to CAM Matters. I'm Suzanne Lynn and this is Betsy Barbieux. And we are talking about enforcement today. And I don't know, I think when you start thinking about boards and community living, it kind of gets a bad rap. I want to talk about first of all, why we've got to have these rules and why there is enforcement. Betsy - It does get a bad rap and I'm glad that I have a chance to defend it. Suzanne - Right? Betsy - And to tell the other side. You hear of so many mean boards, Suzanne - Right. Betsy - and they're mean to these old people. Suzanne - Well, the neighbors are talking to other neighbors. Yes, absolutely. Betsy - And I tell you, no one ever presents the other side. So I'm gonna present the other side today. Enforcement, the why of it is, and I'm gonna tag back to something that we said earlier, in an earlier show. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - The why is because of these. We are in, we as in owners and the board the association, the corporation, are in a contractual relationship. The parties to the contract have to fulfill the mandates in the contract. Betsy - That's a lot, can I just pick this up? Suzanne - Yeah. Suzanne - Yeah, so is this the typical? Betsy - Oh, that's small. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Just put it back down. Suzanne - Yeah, I didn't want to get a hernia. Betsy - But we are in a contractual relationship. When you moved into your community, I'll just go back and refresh just a little bit. Suzanne - Yes. Betsy - But when you moved into your community, you traded off some of your rights to do what you want with your property, in exchange for something else. If you moved from Texas, and had a farm in Texas, and you move here, yes, you will have to clean up after your dog. And you probably did not in Texas. Suzanne - Probably not. Betsy - On the farm. Suzanne - The cattle, no. Betsy - Yeah. No in fact you use that for other stuff. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - But this is a contractual relationship. When you moved in, you were given the opportunity to read these, whether you know it or not, you were. These were public, we talked about them being public. It's possible that here, you don't really recognize that you have a trade-off. You might have promised in your contract to not paint your house, or not re-roof, or put a fence in or pool in without getting permission from the Homeowner's Association. You might have moved into your condo and became contractually obligated to not hang a roof on your door, or put a flowerpot outside of your front door. Suzanne - But you just signed. "I want this place." Betsy - "I want this place." Betsy - Right. Betsy - The reason for the restrictions is to maintain the lifestyle and the look of the community. I think I mentioned earlier that homes in community associations are five to six percent higher in value than homes that are not. Have you ever driven through a neighborhood that does not have a Homeowner's Association? Suzanne - You mean with the cars jacked up on cement blocks? Betsy - Yes. Suzanne - Where they're changing the oil? Betsy - Yes. Suzanne - Yeah, I've seen them. Betsy - And the old dishwasher and old refrigerator out in the yard? Suzanne - And the fact is you were probably attracted to your community because it had a certain look to it. Betsy - They're uniform, harmonious, Suzanne - Right. They have a nice scheme and design to them. And that probably attracted you. So we don't want you to be the neighbor that puts your car up on the blocks. Betsy - Right. Suzanne - To change the oil. Betsy - Right. Betsy - So that is why we have a contractual obligation. The board has to enforce these. And the owners, by moving in, have agreed to comply, voluntarily comply. Suzanne - 'Cause it takes enforcement to keep a certain standard. Betsy - And quite frankly there are a few people who should not live in these kinds of communities because they can't stand a line drawn in the sand, and you just have to stomp on it. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - There's some people who just shouldn't be here. Suzanne - Sure. Betsy - You need to go back to the farm. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - And that's okay. Suzanne - And you want more flexibility and just. Betsy - And that's okay. But for a lot of people, 9,600,000 in Florida, this is the way they like to live. So that's the why. The board is not picking on you, or shouldn't be. We can talk about equitable. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - But the board is doing what it has to do. It has no choice. If it says that you have to build your home with a setback of 50 fee or a setback of 80 fee, then you can't build your home any other way but that. Betsy - Well it's important, I mean you wanna keep things as they are, and the important part is being aware when you're moving into a community that that's existing. Suzanne - You know, we're hoping with this series of CAM Matters that this will help people. Betsy - Right. Sure. Suzanne - So that they'll know some things before they move in. Betsy - So when we first started this show, you talked about you wanna give the other side, because it's very true. One neighbor talks to another, they only hear this, "They want to make him get rid "of their dog that's 13 years old." Well, there's more to the story, if it comes down to the board, it's probably because they've exceeded the amount of pets, and they've now made that story so refined to make it look like they're the victim. Suzanne - Yeah, so and pets are another matter. Betsy - Right, we'll do a show on that. Suzanne - We'll do a show on pets. But when the board is asking you to comply, it's because they have been required to by the documents. Yes, there are occasionally bully boards, but for the most part they're not. Betsy - Right. Suzanne - They're just doing what they're supposed to do from the contract. Suzanne - Right, well I'll tell you what, when we come back we are gonna talk about the who part of enforcement. And this is where things can get a little bit crazy, so you don't wanna miss it. Announcer - Are you ready for a new career? Do you have skills or interest in management, real estate, construction, maintenance, accounting, strategic planning, project management, budgets, human resource management, lawn and landscaping, pool services, or any other expertise needed to operate a community association? If you do, Community Association Management could be for you. For more information, fell free to e-mail Betsy at Betsy@FloridaCAMSchools.com, or visit the Florida CAM Schools website at www.FloridaCAMSchools.com. Florida Community Association Management continues to grow. Career opportunities abound. Suzanne - Welcome back to CAM Matters with Suzanne and Betsy, and today we're talking about enforcement. And we covered the why, now we're getting to the who. And this is where it gets a little more personal because sometimes it feels like it's personal, like they're beating you up a little bit. Like they're targeting you. Betsy - And they're probably not. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Now again, there are some boards that are out of line, but for the most part, most are not. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - They are enforcing the restrictions in the documents because they have to. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Again, we're going back to this as a business. And if you want to know how big of a business it is, let's do a little bit of arithmetic. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - If you take the value of a home or a unit, multiply that times the number of homes or units in your community, and right there. Suzanne - That's a lot. Betsy - That's a lot right there. Suzanne - That's a big number, right? Betsy - And you can even take a 10 year ago depressed value. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Of a home or a unit. Multiply that times the number of units. Add to that your budget amount, which could have a lot of zeros after that. Add to that the reserve account amount. Reserves are the strategic savings. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - For the big ticket items that we're going to replace in years to come like roof, paving painting, elevator, pool, servicing. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Those kinds of things that we're gonna replace in five, 10, 15, 20, 30 years. You add to that, which in some communities reserves are millions of dollars. Suzanne - Oh, wow, okay. Betsy - And then you add to that the value of the common property, the things at the pool, the clubhouse the roads are on. You add that, and we have something with a dozen or more zeros after it. Suzanne - Wow. Betsy - This is a multi-million dollar corporation. You as owners think of it as your home, but the board has to put on their business hat and see it as a business. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - And they are fulfilling their contractual obligations to enforce whatever it says in here. And as much as it might feel personal when you get that violation letter, it's not, it's business. The board has to be equitable in its enforcement, so they can't let one owner slide. Suzanne - Sure, Betsy - And then hammer on another owner. Suzanne - Right. They've gotta be consistent. Betsy - They have to be consistent. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - They have to be equitable. And the documents will require the board to do that. So they will be fulfilling what is here, plus boards need a written policy for how many letters do they send to an owner to get compliance. Betsy - Sure. And then when they have reached the point that the owner's not gonna comply. Do you turn it over to the attorney, which is gonna cost money, or do you send internal procedures that the statutes allow? Which would be to find them, or to suspend the use rights. Betsy - They can't use the pool. Suzanne - Can't use the pool. Suzanne - Or something like that. Betsy - Right. Or to in some cases that depending on which type of violation it is to suspend their voting rights. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - So those would be internal procedures, but they need written policies for how and when they implement that, so that they don't appear to be arbitrary. Suzanne - Right, don't most boards already have those established though? Betsy - Oh, Suzanne, no they do not. Suzanne - They don't? Betsy - They don't. Suzanne - Oh. Betsy - They don't. Suzanne - It's easier once you move in and it's already established. This is the way it is, but when you're making the, ugh. Betsy - And that is something that I try to help on the management side with the managers. I try to give managers opportunities, in their Continuing Ed classes, to draft some of these policies and procedures. Suzanne - Sure. Betsy - And get them started. Suzanne - Right. Betsy - And then give them to board and say, "Here, I got it started for you. "We need these." Suzanne - Right. Betsy - Now a lot of management companies have policies and procedures written, and a lot of the much larger communities have policies and procedures that are written. But when you have a part-time manager or you have a manager and a half part-time maintenance person, chances in having all of that structure in time to write the policies and procedures are slim. Suzanne - Well, and it's probably not just having the procedures, it's that enforcing the procedures. Who's gonna put the notes on the door and send out the letters and stuff. Betsy - Right. And if you don't have management at all, if the board is all volunteer and doing everything themselves, then each board member has to be the point person for something, and that means probably one board member is gonna be the point person for enforcement. Suzanne - Sure, I feel like we could go a whole lot longer than we normally do with this show, but I do want to talk about before we wrap up. The rights of sitting in a meeting, of a board meeting, and what you feel like needs to be enforced, and shouting out things like, there's procedures, right? Betsy - Oh, you've heard of those meetings. Suzanne - I've heard of them. Betsy - Oh, you've heard of those meetings. Suzanne - What's proper? What should people know as they're going into a board meeting? Betsy - First, the thing that you should know when you're going to a board meeting as an owner, it's not for you. The board meeting is not for you. Suzanne - They don't work for us? Betsy - No. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - No, we work for the documents. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - The board works for the documents, the manager works for the documents. The board meeting is for the board. The statutes don't allow the board collectively as a whole to discuss business outside of a board meeting. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - So the only time they can talk about reviewing the contracts, violations, compliance, financials, anything to do with maintenance, and those kinds of issues, the contracts, the only time they can talk about that is at a board meeting. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - They're not supposed to talk with each other outside of a meeting. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - They then need to sit so that they see each other. You cannot do business, and they're doing business, with people whose eyeballs you cannot see. Suzanne - Right, so if they're sitting as if they're on stage. Betsy - They should not be sitting on stage. Betsy - They should not sitting in a panel style because in all fairness, that makes the meeting look like it's for the owners. Suzanne - Sure. Betsy - But the board meeting is not an informational meeting for the owner. It is not a Q&A for the owner. The board meeting is for the board. Suzanne - To cover what's on the agenda that night, right? Betsy - And they can only cover what's on the agenda. The law does not allow them to add anything to the agenda. It has to be set 48 hours in advance of what's gonna be on the agenda. So any of those free-willing comments that the board is allowing owners to make. Suzanne - My lawn is brown. That's not appropriate. Betsy - It is not appropriate. It's not contemplated by the statute. If an owner has a concern, I want that concern gathered some way. Suzanne - Right, you want it heard. Betsy - I want it heard, but not at the meeting. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - It doesn't belong at the meeting, that's not what the meeting is for. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - The meeting is for the board to do its business. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - It's not to give information to the owners. It's not to take complaints from the owners. The thing about the complaints and all those pop-up, yelling, screaming things that happen, is that nothing can be done about it at that meeting because whatever that was that the owner just brought up wasn't on the agenda. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - So you can't do anything about it anyway. Suzanne - That is so good to know. Betsy - That makes the owner more angry. Suzanne - I'm sure it does. Betsy - Yeah, absolutely. Suzanne - It makes them more angry. Betsy - Yeah. Because what's the point in me telling you if you can't do anything? Suzanne - Right. Betsy - Well, that's not what the purpose of this meeting is for. Suzanne - Or to knock on the president's door at night. Betsy - There needs to be a procedure. If you have any level of management at all, violation issues, complaints, and maintenance complaints, need to go through management. Suzanne - Okay. Betsy - Managers know that part of our job is to be the buffer for the board, so that the board can enjoy walking the dog, or sitting at the pool, or playing golf, without owners constantly telling them about things that won't stop. Suzanne - Right, reminder, it's a volunteer position. Betsy - Volunteer, right. And managers know that this is our job. Bring it to us first, but board members also need to be taught to say, "Have you told Betsy?" Suzanne - Sure, right. Betsy - "Have you told the manager?" Suzanne - Right. Suzanne - Tell her first, and if she can't take of it, she'll bring it to the board. Suzanne - So to wrap up the whole show, would you say that if you have a problem that you want the board to address, you need to take it to management and then it gets put on an agenda, and that's the proper procedure. Suzanne - If management cannot handle it. Betsy - If management can't handle it, can't resolve whatever the issue is, then the manager will bring it to the board. Suzanne - Okay, what are some final thoughts that you have on enforcement, because it's such a touchy subject. Betsy - It's not personal. It is business and it is because we are all contractually obligated to each other. It's a contract. Betsy - It's a big business with a lot of zeros. Suzanne - A lot of zeros, that's right. Suzanne - Thank you Betsy, it was a great one today, thank you. Announcer - Thank you for listening to CAM Matters. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. For more information, feel free to e-mail Betsy at betsy@floridacamschools.com, or visit the Florid CAM Schools website at www.floridacamschools.com. Information provided on this show is general in nature and does not constitute legal advice. Please contact a licensed attorney for your specific situation.

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EP0076: Darkwing Duck Classics, Volume 1

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 19, 2018 15:42

A look at the good old days of the Disney Afternoon and Darkwing Duck strips in Disney Adventure magazine. Affiliate link included. Transcript below: Graham: Let’s get dangerous as we review Darkwing Duck Classics, straight ahead. Announcer: Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise … Continue reading "EP0076: Darkwing Duck Classics, Volume 1"

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EP0071: Marvel 1602: New World

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 2, 2018 7:58

The Hulk battles dinosaurs in Colonial America. Need we say more?Affiliate link included.Transcript:Graham:Join us as we travel back in time to 1602 when Dinosaurs ruled North America. Well, at least in the Marvel 1602 universe. It's time for Marvel 1602: New World, straight ahead.Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise Idaho, here is your host Adam Graham. Graham:Marvel 1602: New World is a sequel to the original Marvel 1602 graphic novel by Neil Gaiman. The plot of that story took Marvel heroes and had their beginnings set in the 17th century with characters like Matt Murdock, Nick Fury, Stephen Strange, Peter Parquagh, spelt in a very old English way, as well as the X-men, though in a different form. One of the plot threads of that book is that the first child born in North America Virginia Dare came to England along with a very white Native American known as Rojhaz in order to get aid for their colony from Queen Elizabeth but unfortunately by the time they arrived, Queen Elizabeth has died in King James is in charge. It turns out Rojhaz was actually Steve Rogers, i.e, Captain America from another universe who had been sent back in time and the Age of Heroes had started early. Nick Fury returns Rojhaz to the modern times and goes himself at the end of Marvel 1602. However, that left a lot of people in this new world at the colony of Roanoke, which unlike in our universe, was not lost and Virginia Dare's life not a mystery. She lived in 1602 and got powers of her own. David Banner is hiding out having failed to capture Fury, which is what King James wanted as the book starts and J. Jonah Jameson has started a broad sheet, the Daily Trumpet and he's using Banner's young servant, Parquagh, to help with the broad sheet and to employ him since Banner has disappeared.However, early on in the story, Banner actually makes a reappearance. He is lost and confused but the Hulk takes over when dinosaurs attacked the settlement and the Hulk is able to repel the invasion. However, this proves as an opportunity for Norman Osborne. Osborne wants to get rid of the local Indians because they're not willing to deal with him and he wants their lands for reasons that are revealed later on in the book but Rojhaz had actually preparing them for what white settlers might do and so they are very wise to his ways and really not interested in trading. However, the colonist, when they see that the Hulk, are really freaked out and so they decide to pass a law banning witchbreed. Now, witchbreed is a term in Marvel 1602 for those who have superpowers. It was applied to the X-Men in the previous book but, unlike in our universe, they are not as advanced as to make a distinction, like they do in the main Marvel 616 universe, between those who have superpowers through scientific means and can be totally cool and those who are mutants and are therefore dangerous and evil and must be destroyed. So, pretty much Banner, just like the X-men, falls into the category of witchbreed and is imprisoned. However, back in England, King James begins to wonder what happened to Banner. So, he sends someone to check into what's going on and the person he sends…he sends his man, Ross, who is commanding his military forces along with a Spaniard in a suit of iron armor known as Iron Lord. So, this is a 17th century electricity powered version of Iron Man with Tony Stark inside and they eventually, when the English arrive, they arrest the governor because they had set up their own form of government and slate him to be executed. The governor is Virginia Dare's dad and this actually leads to Peter Parquagh taking on the role of The Spider after making a homemade mask and Virginia Dare lends a hand too as in this world, she has a shape shifting abilities to turn herself into any animal.

english england marvel north america heroes iron man native americans dinosaurs xmen spider fury new world captain america hulk queen elizabeth ii indians banner affiliate neil gaiman tony stark osborne king james roanoke nick fury steve rogers spaniard matt murdock stephen strange colonial america david banner jonah jameson adam graham virginia dare norman osborne announcer welcome

EP0060: The Torch

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 25, 2018 8:46

The Torch is dead, but he's an android so how does that work? It's the best Mad Thinker story ever as Toro and the Torch return.Affiliate link included.Transcript below:Graham: How can an android be dead? Get ready to flame on as we take a look at The Torch by Mike Carey, straight ahead. Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise Idaho, here is your host Adam Graham.Host:Most people know Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four as the Human Torch. However, he was not the first character in Marvel Comics to bear that name. Actually, the original Human Torch, presented first on the front cover of Marvel Mystery Comics number 1, was an android. An android named Jim Hammond. During the Golden Age of comics, he fought crime in a wide variety of different Marvel magazines and he also made a brief comeback along with Namor and Captain America in the mid-1950s. The 1970 series, the invaders told of how Namor, Captain America, and the human torch along with other heroes, such as the Union Jack Nazis during World War Two. The torch came out of the Avengers Invaders mini-series which featured the death of the Human Torch. However, as the villain of this story, the Mad Thinker, points out how does an android die? During the Golden Age, the Human Torch had a sidekick known as Toro and this is been fleshed out so his full name is Tom Raymond who also had flame powers and he joined forces with the Torch in his fight against evil. Tom Raymond died but when Bucky Barnes got control of the Cosmic Cube for a while, he undid that. Unfortunately for Toro, his wife had moved on and he has no place in the world as the story opens. Both Toro and the body of the Human Torch are set to be examined by the Mad Thinker who has been hired by Advanced Idea Mechanics (AIM) in order to build a weapon and his idea involves building a weapon involving flame and so he has the Torch's body stolen and kidnaps Toro but he's got his own planes and mind. I'll go ahead and discuss this kind of in segments. The main characters of this, Toro is an old character. He's got a lot of reason to be sympathetic. He's kind of lost in this new world and doesn't really know his place in it with nowhere to go and just nothing to do. You do feel for the guy. At the same time, while his present is very uncertain, what he thought he knew about his past is challenged. He definitely goes on a journey and I think at the start of the story I didn't much like him but as the story goes on, we really get to know him better and also see the type of the impact he makes on the Torch. The Torch, is part of the experimentation by the Mad Thinker, has many of the emotions and values, sort of, thought centres in his programming neutralized and so he actually starts out when he awakens, being just really a machine and he has to really rediscover what it was that made him seem so human-like as the Human Torch. And as the book goes on, really the relationship between Toro and the Torch becomes a lot more interesting. I also have to say I love the Mad Thinker in this. He is just a superb villain. I don't think I've ever seen him this well written. He's devious, he's got plans within plans and he even though he's at first in the early part of the book, he's hired by Advanced Ideas Mechanics and later on he is hired by a group of Nazis, who are running an underground city where the third rock continues to thrive, dominated by android citizens in New Berlin but the Mad Thinker really has his own agenda and there's an intelligence, a cunning and a ruthlessness about him that makes him formidable as a villain. I think he's almost written as practically Dr Octopus standards though not quite that over the top in the ego department but really he is just incredibly well written.

marvel nazis world war ii captain america golden age toro marvel comics fantastic four octopus affiliate torch namor bucky barnes human torch mike carey johnny storm new berlin adam graham mad thinker cosmic cube marvel mystery comics announcer welcome avengers invaders

EP0059: The Flash: The Silver Age, Volume 2

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 22, 2018 18:22

Barry Allen and Wally West continue their groundbreaking adventures as they travel through time and battle epic villains like Captain Boomerang for the first time and a team up with the Green Lantern.Affiliate link included.Transcript:Graham: The Flash is tied to a giant boomerang, twice and Kid Flash travels back to pre-historic times, twice. We'll talk about it, straight ahead in The Flash: The Silver Age Volume 2.Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise Idaho, here is your host Adam Graham.Graham:As I discussed in a previous episode after many of the great superhero franchises of the Golden Age flamed out in the late 40s and early 50s, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman remain the really only consistent games in town when it came to superheroes. However, that changed when D.C. introduced Barry Allen as the Flash in Showcase number 4. The Flash was successful and with the Scarlet Speedster's success, many more superheroes would be added to the roster of the D.C. Universe. To understand what made the Flash successful, it's important to understand what the Flash didn't have. There wasn't great characterization or much characterization at all. That would be something really that Marvel would bring to superheroes with the emergence of the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man later on in the 1960s. What the Flash brought was mind-blowing imagination, when it came to the use of the Flash's super speed as well as the rogues he fought. In fact, the colorful rogues of the Flash, Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Weather Wizard and the Prankster, remain popular to this day and they were really cranked out in the early years of the Flash's comeback. The Flash: The Silver Age Volume 2, comes after the Flash's initial three trial appearances and his first thirteen issues have introduced so much but there's even more that gets introduced in this volume and we're going to discuss it. This particular volume collects issues 117 to 132. I won't try and cover everything in this book. It's a 400-page book plus, unlike say a modern comic where you have plots that take place over multiple issues, these are all self-contained or in many cases, they are two stories in a single issue so I won't try and cover everything. I will say that these are pretty lengthy issues when you take a look at them. Generally you're looking at about 23 to 25 pages, which is a good length for the early Silver Age books. They get a lot shorter during the Bronze Age. The first big milestone comes in issue 117 of the Flash, the first issue collected in this book and it introduces Captain Boomerang. The story begins when a corporate honcho has the idea that his company could make a really big trend out of selling boomerangs, as yo-yos had recently been a big deal and they need to hire someone who is experienced throwing the boomerang. And so our villain is hired and uses the name Captain Boomerang. That's part of the plan and instead of taking this cushy corporate job, it'll be like being the Marlboro Man. With plenty money coming his way, he instead turns to a life of crime using incredibly clever boomerangs in order to commit his crimes.Flash actually thinks he's spotted Captain Boomerang at the scene of a crime but Captain Boomerang convinces him that he's innocent and that it would do harm to his elderly parents, who aren't his parents but two actors playing them and gets the Flash to go away but realizes he has to get rid of the Flash and how is he going to do that? He's going to tie him to a rocket-powered boomerang. Now when I asked my wife about this, she pointed out shouldn't a boomerang return back to where it was thrown and that's a good question.However, this time the Flash to a boomerang solution is actually used by ...

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EP0056: Captain Marvel: The Rise of Alpha Flight (Review)

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 11, 2018 7:58

Captain Marvel gets a new haircut and takes command of a team of Candian Superheroes…IN SPACE!Transcript:Graham: Captain Marvel gets a haircut and a new look and also takes command of a space station. We'll talk about it ahead as we take a look at Captain Marvel: The Rise of Alpha Flight.Announcer:Welcome to the Classic Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise Idaho here is your host Adam Graham. Graham:After a critically acclaimed, if not always commercially successful, run on Captain Marvel, Kelly Deconnick left the book and the series was taken over by Tara Butters who wrote the Agent Carter series. So, we'll take a look at what she did in this book Captain Marvel: The Rise of Alpha Flight which covers issues one through five of the relaunch Captain Marvel series. Captain Marvel is Carol Danvers who began her career as Miss Marvel back in the 1970s. We reviewed Essential Miss Marvel Volume 1 talking about that series while she was a lot of identities became Miss Marvel again and then in 2012, she became Captain Marvel deciding that it had apparently been long enough since the death of Marvell for her to go ahead and claim that banner and she's been Captain Marvel ever since 2012.However, it's been a bit of a rough road. She has dad a total of 5 different series. She had 2 series by Kelly Deconnick and then this series and then this was followed by The Mighty Captain Marvel, which was followed by another Captain Marvel series, though continuing on with numbering as if they were starting from scratch and she is due this summer and might actually be released by the time this episode is out, to have her own mini-series The Life of Captain Marvel, which is a relaunch and definitive origin story ahead of the Captain Marvel movie due out next year. Alright, well that out of the way, let's take a look at this book The Rise of Alpha Flight. Well Carol has gotten a job as commanding a space station which is the galaxy's first line of defense and she leaves her erstwhile love interest Rhodey aka War Machine behind so that she can go up into space and actually this is the second straight volume that started her doing that. The second Kelly Deconnick volume had her leaving so that she could explore the universe in an Avenger starship and in many ways Deconnick was giving her much the same role as Captain Kirk. Here she is taking on command of a space station and it can be compared to Babylon 5 or it can be call compared to Deep Space Nine, if you want to stay strictly Trek-based.She points to or new haircut, which is short as opposed to the traditional Carol Danvers style which tends to be on the long side and she tends to be skilled at putting it up if necessary but here they opted for shorter hair, which amounts to most over in new look and as far as that goes, it looks fine. It's a haircut that many women realistically wear and I can kind of see why she would go with it. So, she arrives on the space station, which is staffed by the Canadian Superhero Team Alpha Flight. On the space station she runs into her biggest challenge which is her first officer Lieutenant Commander Abigail Brand, who is doubting her fitness and whether she's up for the job, particularly with the heavy diplomacy but thankfully for Captain Marvel, instead they encounter a ghostship that happens to have the Hala star on it, the symbol that she wears on her chest and she starts having visions of the original Marvell of the Kree.Well, overall I felt the best character in this book was Abigail Brand. There were at least a couple different sides to her personality and she tended to be the most interesting and unpredictable character in the book with a lot of twists. Some people said her general style towards Carol is passive aggressive. I don't really see it that way.

babylon captain marvel trek avenger captain kirk war machine hala deep space nine agent carter carol danvers kree marvell alpha flight miss marvel rhodey adam graham deconnick mighty captain marvel tara butters announcer welcome

EP0052: Titans Vol. 3: A Judas Among Us (Review)

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2018 10:20

The Titans try to figure out who's the traitor on the team.Affiliate link included.Transcript:Graham: It's time for the Titans to root out the traitor. Find out all about it as we take a look at Titans Volume 3: A Judas Among Us.Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best Comics in the universe. From Boise, Idaho here is your host, Adam Graham. Graham:The Titans have been around for 50 years in either the form of the Teen Titans, the original teen from the 1960s, with sidekicks for Batman, the Flash and Aquaman to the present day. There have been a lot of iterations of this. One of the more popular ones are the Titans, which are the original Teen Titans, people who knew each other since they were kids, now fighting together as adults, young adults. The Titans disappeared in the New 52. In Titans Rebirth, it was revealed that their memories had been stolen and Wally's return helped them to remember who they were and come together as a team with old Wally West, a big part of the action and what had happened. They went through a lot of difficult times including Lazarus Contract, which I covered very early in the series. In which they were given cause to doubt Dick Grayson over his agreeing to, with Deathstroke, to something called the Lazarus Contract. However, what exactly that entailed, I'm still not clear on and more importantly, the heart of the team, Wally West had his own heart injured as a teen when the teams traveled back in time to stop Deathstroke. This was Damian Wayne's decision at work. So, you've got the first 2 volumes of Titan stories and you also have the crossover event, the Lazarus Contract in the rearview mirror.I really do like the first issue of this book. It's a good starting place, even though it's the first issue of volume 3. Issue 12, if you were reading the issues individually as they came out. It begins with Omen visiting Psimon in prison to try and get information about H.I.V.E. They are a group that was masquerading as someone who was just helping out metahumans by getting rid of their powers and quirks so they didn't stop them from living a normal life and they had gotten, actually, some heroes to do it including Mal Duncan, the former guardian, who tried to get his wife to do it as well. She had the identity of Bumblebee. However, in the process she didn't get her powers taken, she got her entire memory. So, she doesn't remember Mal and does not remember her baby, which is a major problem they have to resolve. On top of Wally's heart, Donna Troy has learned that her own background is a lie. She's picked that up from Wonder Woman and this reflects the fact that Donna Troy's identity has been something that writers have been messing around with for decades when she was first introduced on the Teen Titans as a Wonder Girl, which was based off of Bob Haney's misunderstanding that there actually was a Wonder Girl from seeing covers of Wonder Woman comics when this was actually just Wonder Woman as a girl and not a separate character that he could use but it's become more serious and it becomes more serious still. The book still has a lot of fun and I think the art is great. Some of the resolutions, the question about old Wally West and his heart, really is addressed and it does intersect some plot points. I think the biggest thing is the crossed on the team because Simon in that first issue, states that there is a traitor on the Titans and that plot plays out and adds to the sense of suspicion on the team. With old Wally, it does put him in this very interesting mental state He is at risk of dying when he uses his powers but he still wants to help people and still wants to be part of the team and he actually has a moment with Donna Troy when he kisses her and that creates some problems with Roy Harper, aka Arsenal,

EP0051: Doctor Who: The Twelfth Doctor – Time Trials Vol. 2: The Wolves of Winter

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 24, 2018 6:22

The Doctor goes to Antartic and finds Vikings, Ice Warriors and a ton of continuity. Affiliate link included.Transcript:Graham: The Doctor arrives in Antarctica to find Vikings and a whole mass of old continuity and then faces a greater challenge when he takes Bill shopping. We'll tell you all about it as we take a look at Dr Who: The Twelfth Doctor – The Wolves of Winter. Straight ahead.Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best Comics in the universe. From Boise, Idaho here is your host, Adam Graham. Host:We're now to the point in the Twelfth Doctor comics continuity where he began to travel with his series 10 companion Bill Potts and they continued on to some adventures in the comics rather than going with one-off comic-only companions. This book contains 4 issues and 2 different stories. The first is a 3-issue story the titular Wolves of Winter, where the Doctor arrives right after Vikings land in Antartica fleeing other Vikings and wanting to protect their treasure and pretty soon there are some mysterious goings on and the Doctor and the Vikings bump into the Ice Warriors and the Ice Warriors are on Earth on the trail of the flood. Now this is another continuity point, if you've been following Doctor Who, going back to the 10th Doctor era, the second to last television stories for the 10th Doctor. The Waters of Mars had the Doctor facing off against a Martian virus that took possession of human host and sought to wipe out everyone at a Mars colony and in many ways this story is before this because we're back in the time of the Vikings, a several hundred years before the events in the Waters of Mars. The Antarctic setting really does create a great sense of atmosphere particularly the way the art is laid out in this book and there is a lot going on. There is also another villain from the Doctor's past. This one from classic Doctor Who, and I won't reveal it as a big spoiler here, that shows up. I think writer Richard Menic deserves credit for managing to get this to hang together as a story with its own continuity and just really work as a story because there are some Doctor Who stories where they'll just throw out a bunch of continuity. Ooh Dalek, Ooh I Cybermen, Ooh Ice warriors, aren't you impressed but this is actually a really good story with some solid twist and some actual surprises. It does use a lot of continuity and the more that you're into Doctor Who, the more you're going to appreciate this story but I think it is absolutely a solid, well-told tale.The second story is "The Great Shopping Bill" and in this one, this is after the point in series 10 when it was revealed that Missy was what was being imprisoned in the vault. She had had a sense of death conferred on her for her crimes but the Doctor had decided to rehabilitate her by locking her in this vault and pledging to keep guard on it for as long as it took and not to go off-world, though he does fudge a bit on that during the course of series 10. At any rate, it's found that the dimensional stabilizer is failing and in order to keep the vault secure for Missy, as well as to keep Missy alive, they have to find a new one and it finally occurs, thanks to Bill's suggestion to go to the Ubermart, which is a giant intergalactic market with anything you could imagine including dimensional stabilizers. Anyway, in the store Bill finds a lost little girl and tries to get her back to her mother. However, there's confusion, robots end up chasing after them, particularly when the Doctor reports Bill missing. It's a sweet, short little story. It's a fun read, not particularly great but I think enjoyable.Well overall I thought this was actually a pretty decent volume. I don't think it was great by any means. I think that when Doctor Who comics are truly great,

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EP0049: Comics for Kids

RecTech: the Recruiting Technology Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 17, 2018 15:26

A look at several comics that are great for kids. Transcript:Host:Today we take a look at 7 series of comics and graphic novels that are great for kids. Straight ahead. Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise, Idaho here is your host, Adam Graham. Host:When I was growing up, my dad didn't actually let me read superhero comics and I think that there was actually good reason for that. There's a lot of comic material out they are that's dark and gritty and just not very appropriate for kids to read but if you're a fan of comics and you'd like to introduce that to your kids and you want something that's not going to expose them to a lot of dark, violent stuff as well as sexual content that you don't really want them introduced to, it can be a challenge. So today, we're going to go ahead and take a look at some comics and comic series that are good for kids and I should note in talking about this that in addition to comics that are really you know just not appropriate for kids, there are comics that are made for kids that also can be inappropriate in other ways, such as talking down to the kids and not really telling good stories. So, we're kind of looking for quality in both ways. So, I've got seven different ideas, six really for kids of all ages for the most part and 1 for slightly older kids. So, we'll talk about that. I also will mention one option which is to introduce your kids to Gold and Silver Age comics. In general, the comics did not tend to be nearly as graphic and certainly did not have the amount of sexual content that many modern comics will contain. However, you need to be aware that these were written for a different time, so a lot of the language in terms of actual dialogue may sound weird to kids. In addition, particularly during the Golden Age, some superheroes could be almost bloodthirsty in their reactions or callous, at the very least and some books contain material that could be, at the very least, racially insensitive if not, racist. So, it's something you need to use your judgment on.Alright, well onto the ones that I would recommend and we're going to go ahead and start with Duck Comics and by Duck Comics, I mean the comics featuring Scrooge McDuck and Donald Duck. If you're like me and you grew up watching Duck Tales, many of the ideas for stories for Duck Tales came right out of the pages of these comics, particularly those by Carl Barks, talking about the adventures of Donald Duck and Scrooge McDuck. Now I mention some of the older comics being a bit dated. I really don't think that is a case with Duck Comics. They're written very well, in a way I think holds up magnificently and doesn't depend on the time period. Certainly, kids will recognize the time period is different but I don't think it will make a huge load of difference. They're great adventure stories with a good sense of adventure and they are enjoyed not just in the United States but the world over. In fact, for many European comic fans, the real comics are Duck Comics, forget about all these superheroes. I wouldn't go that far but they are really enjoyable and they're great for kids. The Carl Barks library, which is being republished in 30 volumes, contains works from the 1940s to the mid-1960s and there's also the Don Rosa library, containing his works with Scrooge and Donald and the boys from 1980s to 2006. They're both really good writers. They're good reads for kids and so I'd encourage you to check out the Carl Barks library or the Don Rosa library series, which are really just great collections of Donald Duck and Scrooge McDuck stories.Alright, the next thing I want to mention is the D.C. Animated Universe comics. Now this is not something everyone knows because so many people grew up watching the...

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Brad Goldoor, Cofounder of Phenom People

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 17, 2018 19:42

Brad Goldoor: This is Brad Goldoor, co-founder and chief people officer at Phenom People, and I'm next on the Rec Tech podcast. Announcer: Welcome to Rec Tech, the podcast where recruiting and technology intersect. Each month, you'll hear from vendors shaping the recruiting world, along with recruiters who'll tell you how they use technology to hire talent. Now here's your host, the mad scientist of online recruiting, Chris Russell. Chris Russell: That's right. It's time for Rec Tech, the only podcast that helps employers and recruiters connect with more candidates through technology inspired conversations. Today's show is a vendor edition, but first, the Rec Tech podcast is sponsored as always by our friends at Hiretual, the recruiter's best friend. Hiretual's AI engine is a personal sourcing assistant that works for you 24/7. You can conduct email marketing campaigns, source candidates automatically much more through the new version three interface, so if you want to source more candidates, check out Hiretual, find them on the web at hiretual.com. CONNECT WITH CHRIS: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmrussell/ Chris Russell: As the chief people officer at Pennsylvania-based Phenom People, Brad Goldoor manages the talent acquisition team and talent development functions, including interviewing, onboarding and employee engagement. Before that, he spent several years as their VP of business development. Phenom has recently secured $22 million series B funding from investors such as Axa Venture Partners, but today he's on Rec Tech. Brad, welcome to the show, it's great to have you. Brad Goldoor: Thank you. Chris Russell: I'm curious, I want to start the conversation by asking you about your transition from biz dev into talent acquisition, not a typical career path, but what's that been like so far for you? Brad Goldoor: Absolutely. You know, everybody in an organization, in my opinion, is always selling, they're always selling something, whether that's internally or externally. I took the skillset of selling our product to our customers, and started using that skillset to sell the company to potential candidates, and selling all the benefits and our growth trajectory and our innovation, and everything that's unique about our company and our culture, and putting those sales skills to the test on, again, selling the opportunity and selling the company to those potential candidates. Chris Russell: Yeah. Like recruiting is sales and marketing, as they say. What did you learn from working in biz dev that really serves you well in your recruiting role now, would you say? Brad Goldoor: Sure. It's all about people, as I had said earlier, and it's being able to read those people, and being that chameleon in changing as necessary to the different personalities, and making sure you're catering to those different personality types and changing your pitch accordingly. That's been a natural transition, to move that over to recruiting. Chris Russell: Gotcha. Just to set the stage for us, how big is Phenom People terms of employee base and what's the size of your GA team there? Brad Goldoor: Yeah, we're 350 global employees, and we have a global team of seven. Chris Russell: Seven, okay. This wasn't on my original list, but besides your own software, Brad, for what tools do you guys have in house for sourcing or using other parts of the recruiting process? Can you name a few for us? Brad Goldoor: Sure. We do use Glass door, we use Comparably, we of course use LinkedIn as a sourcing tool, and as you had mentioned, of course our own tool. Chris Russell: Do you guys do a lot of sourcing internally overall, is that a big function? Brad Goldoor: Yeah, we do do a decent amount of sourcing, we've been able to leverage a lot of our news and press, and use that as a tool to attract talent. By promoting a lot of the awards we win, we find that's a very effective sourcing tool as well. Chris Russell: Yeah, I do see a lot of your press releases out there in the ecosystem, so that's interesting. Press releases could work, I guess, right? Brad Goldoor: Absolutely. We have a very large depth of content for a company of our size and stage, and we've been able to use and leverage that working closely with marketing. Recruitment is marketing, in my opinion, and so leveraging all those marketing efforts and all those awards that our marketing team that has helped us win at this point has been a really effective tool and draw, in that people are attracted right to good news and growth and big things happening, and so we've been able to leverage that very nicely. Chris Russell: Yeah. Just curious, do you use one platform for the press releases, in terms of publishing them, or what do you use for that? Brad Goldoor: As far as the press releases, we do use a PR firm to push them out, and so we rely on them to get that out into the appropriate media outlet. Chris Russell: Gotcha. I was reading some of your site and some releases before the call, you guys describe yourselves as talent relationship management, TRM. Is that a way to kind of differentiate yourself in the market from your competitors, who are just going to call themselves, you know everyone's using the term CRM these days, or candidate relationship marketing. Tell me more about that, that phrase, that acronym that you're trying to define for yourself. Brad Goldoor: Sure. Yes, you know we're bringing a unique and differentiated innovative product to market, and we are also choosing a different name along those lines, and it is actually talent relationship marketing. We believe that this function is being disrupted, and a behavior change is in place to start looking at analytics and campaigns and conversions, similar to marketing. It's a broad category for recruitment marketing, but we're pointing it as talent relationship marketing and taking our tool to market in that way. Chris Russell: Okay. Tell me more about how the Phenom platform helps employers become better marketers at their jobs. I know you've got about five different products in this suite there, but let's go a little bit deeper for me, and tell me more about how it actually works and what it does. Brad Goldoor: Sure. We start by attracting candidates in a personalized career site, giving them that Amazon-like experience on the front end, and as a result, we find the candidates are willing to stay longer, share more data, and have a more engaging experience. As a result of that, we're able to collect more data and make that data meaningful on the back end for recruiters and hiring managers. Then we leverage that into an analytics tool so they can start to look at source attribution, you know time of stay, digging into those analytics and making some data-driven decisions based off of what they're seeing in those analytics. We then move over to the CRM module of it, which allows you to push out proactive nurturing campaigns and target passive talent, somebody who may have come and visited the site, used their LinkedIn profile for some personalized recommendations. Brad Goldoor: Though they didn't apply to a job, we can now take that audience and segment it and market specifically to those people who came and showed some intent but didn't necessarily apply, and nurture them through the process, and again, look at more analytics on what's converting, what's not, and how those results end up. Then the last piece to the platform, we take that internally to an internal mobility module where we're hosting an internal-only career site, and enabling and allowing employee referrals to be done from that part of the platform. Chris Russell: Going back to the career site for a second and the Amazon experience around the apply process, do you kind of have more of a one-click apply or an easy way to apply to job these days? It's kind of a big candidate experience a problem out there, but how do you guys handle it? Brad Goldoor: Microsoft is actually one of our customers and they actually offer, I think, six easy ways to apply, from using your Microsoft login, your LinkedIn profile, various other social feeds and anything that you might have set up for a Microsoft account at any time. Those are one way that we enable the easier apply, but it's really personalizing the content to the person's experience, just like we use machine learning, so every visit and every click, every piece of content that you consume, we further personalize that experience so that it's the most relevant to them. Chris Russell: Give me an example of that personalization, if you could. Brad Goldoor: Sure, Yep. Great question. If you're clicking on and looking at sales or biz dev jobs, I should see a video of a day in the life, I should see a message from the chief sales officer, I should see other jobs that are related to sales or biz dev that I might want to also look at, any blog posts, employee testimonials, all of that content that's relevant to what I'm actually searching for and looking at at that time is served up in that personalized format. Chris Russell: Right. Okay. On the pipeline side, you talked about nurturing a bit. Tell me more about how that works. It sounds like you really need kind of a marketing person to really run this thing on the back end, in terms of the administration of all this. I wondered if you could touch on that briefly too. Brad Goldoor: Sure. You're starting to see new job titles pop up in recruiting departments, whether it's employer branding or recruitment marketing, and so those types of people, and they are coming from marketing backgrounds. Our tool is very user friendly, and we can train and enable and teach a new skillset to existing recruiters and talent acquisition leaders with a very simple user interface on the backend. Setting up campaigns is really, you know we make it very turnkey and simple for them to execute, but we are seeing a mix, like I said, of people with marketing backgrounds getting into those roles with new titles, as well as existing people, and we're training them and giving them, again, new skillsets to stay relevant in the market. That's some of the benefits of the nurturing tool on the backend. Chris Russell: I know there's a piece in there for AI, everyone's got that, but tell me more about what's involved with that, is it true AI? Brad Goldoor: Yeah. Artificial intelligence, we have live examples of that on some of our customer sites today. One good visual example to illustrate that is our job recommendations. If you're looking at one job, and we're going to suggest five or seven other jobs that are relevant to that, most people do that either key word or location-based, and while those are two of the data points that we'll use in our analysis, we're actually recreating the human behavior. We know that every thousand job seekers looking at this job are most inclined to look at these five or seven jobs on the right hand side, and because of that, we get a higher pull through and click through rate on those jobs, because it's based off of that artificial intelligence or recreating that human behavior, and so it becomes even more personalized and relevant. That's the best illustrative example I have of our AI, where you can actually see it in action. Chris Russell: You mentioned the conversion rate there, a typical employer website today I think is around, I don't know, between seven and 10% depending on who you ask. What are you guys seeing as far as conversion rates go on some of your job listings with some of your clients? Brad Goldoor: We're almost double those numbers. Chris Russell: Double, excellent. That's good to hear. Brad, what's the basic price point of the Phenom product, can you give us some idea of what it costs? Brad Goldoor: Yeah, so on the low end, it starts at about $50,000, and it can go up into the hundreds of thousands, even to more fingers than that, depending on the size of the company and the customer, but starts at $50,000 on the low and goes into the high-to-mid six figures. Chris Russell: All right, let me take a quick break, listeners, so I can tell you about our other sponsor today, which is Robo Recruiter, and they're a recruiting chatbot technology. Robo Recruiter's job vet campaigns help recruiters vet and select candidates for particular roles, and make it easy to quickly build conversations that are both personalized and engaging. Start prioritizing your candidates within minutes, go to roborecruiter.ai and tell them you heard it on Rec Tech. You mentioned Microsoft before, Brad, what are some other examples of career sites you power today that listeners could go to? Could you rattle off a couple of maybe URLs for us? Brad Goldoor: Sure, gladly. Whole Foods southwest, Deloitte General Motors, those are some of the good ones that are out there for people that you could take a look at it and see the Phenom experience that we're deploying on career sites. Chris Russell: Awesome, definitely check that out. Did you guys just do Proctor and Gamble's site too, or is that someone else? Brad Goldoor: No, that was not us. Chris Russell: Sorry. I've seen a few releases about career sites in the news, and I know you guys have done some of those, it must have been a different vendor. All right, Brad, thoughts about the onboarding and employee experience at Phenom, I mean tell me more about your philosophy there in terms of onboarding. Are you guys doing anything to kind of make the employee experience better even after they start? Brad Goldoor: We sure are, this is definitely a hot topic for me right now personally. One of our internal mantras at Phenom People is "not normal", and we tend to do things that are in line with that. On people's first day, we set them up with a buddy and agenda, their computer is up and running and ready to go with their email already entered in. We have a day one agenda, a week one agenda, we have a buddy for them when they come in, and we have their backpack and other swag items ready to go. They've already completed their paperwork online, we use Zenefits as an onboarding tool, so a lot of companies I know use that first day to actually do that paperwork, that's already done. We take them into a room for about an hour and a half and go through a deck to explain the company's history. Brad Goldoor: I do that myself, I'm one of the co-founders and I'm our chief people officer, so having time with me and talking about how we originally started the company and the history people tend to find very engaging, it's interactive, they ask questions and get a good amount of time sitting there with me. Then really the most unique thing that we do in the onboarding experience is before they start, we actually reach out to one of their loved ones or friends, and ask them to submit a video wishing them good luck on their first day, and we play that video for them individually. The response has been from tears of joy, to smiles, you know that their cheeks hurt. We've had dogs, we've had neighbors, we've had kids, and we actually had one employee, it was a two and a half minute video with 12 people from around the world, he had in-laws in India, he had friends in different countries, and literally they went through, you know his wife played music to the background. Brad Goldoor: It's been such, it's literally the favorite part of my job right now, is getting to play those videos on the first day. People are blown away when they see the effort that we did, and from a company standpoint, it doesn't cost us anything. The next natural question that I get asked with this is, "Well, how do you get that individual's friend or family member's contact information?" In the onboarding in Zenefits, they actually have to put an emergency contact in, and so you know they put an emergency contact in usually with a cell phone number, and I text them. Then the spouse or the friend, whoever it is, they're so impressed by what we're doing for the employee, and so sometimes they ask actually about working here by going through that experience. It's been really a unique and rewarding, and a really a fun thing to do, and again, the response has been just off the charts on it. Chris Russell: That's amazing. I love great onboarding stories, and you're right, it doesn't cost much to onboarding right. Brad Goldoor: Absolutely. Chris Russell: I'm glad to hear that companies are changing their tune around that stuff. All right Brad, just a couple more questions for you before we end here. Lots of HR tech startups out there today, you know to me it seems like we're in the golden age of HR tech funding, because everything's getting funded from, whether it's here in the US or overseas. What advice would you give a today's HR tech startups just starting out? You've been in the business for awhile, what's one piece of advice you learned over the years to help you grow your company? Brad Goldoor: Sure. I would say trial and error, fail and fail fast, and get your product out to market even though you know it's not going to be perfect. Your first version of your product should be a junker. If you go back and look at Amazon's first site in 1999 or whatever it was, you know you can see, right? I would say get your product out there, let people bang on it, iterate it based off of that feedback, and don't aim for perfection, and really operate with complete agility and just learn from those mistakes, is some of the best advice that I've gotten and that I could give forward. Chris Russell: Nice. All right, last question. Are you hiring? Tell us where and how to apply, give us some highlights there. Brad Goldoor: Absolutely, yes, of course we're hiring. We've got, you can go to phenompeople.com/careers and see all the open positions. I think we've got about a dozen open there on the site right now in the US, and so we're looking for sales and account management specifically, entry level sales, enterprise sales, account management are some of the ones off the top of my head. I know that we're aggressively in product also putting some of that series B money to use and filling those roles. Again, you can see all the open positions on our career site, which of course we deploy on our own platform and product as well. Chris Russell: Awesome. Well Brad, appreciate you joining me today, learned a lot in a short time, and appreciate the stories. Brad Goldoor: Thanks for having me. Chris Russell: Yep. All right, that'll do it for this edition of the Rec Tech podcast, thanks again to our sponsors, remember Hiretual and Robo Recruiter. Don't forget, you can subscribe to the show via iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud and Stitcher radio. Thanks for listening everyone, and remember, always be recruiting. Announcer: Another episode of Rec Tech is in the books. Follow Chris on Twitter @ChrisRussell, or visit rectechmedia.com, where you can find the audio and links for this show on our blog. Rec Tech media helps both HR tech firms and employers to get more clients or candidates through our consulting practice and online tools, so be sure to check out our sites, like recruiting headlines, job fairing, and more to stay up to date on what's happening in recruiting. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you soon on the next episode of Rec Tech, the recruiting technology podcast.

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EP0048: Lois Lane: A Celebration of 75 Years, Part Two

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 15, 2018 16:45

A look at some later Lois Lane adventures as part of a celebration of 75 years of Lois Lane.Affiliate link included. Transcript below:Graham: I look at some more modern day Lois Lane comics as we continue our look at Lois Lane, A celebration of 75 Years straight ahead.Announcer:Welcome to the Classy Comics podcast where we search for the best comics in the universe. From Boise, Idaho here is your host, Adam Graham. Graham:Well the first comic featured in part 3 of this book, is actually from Man of Steel Number 2. It is the John Byrne mini-series which relaunched Superman post-crisis and provided new detailed origin stories for Superman and his world. And I will say this, while John Byrne can be criticized for some of the elements he introduced for Superman, I think both this and also the story for Lois Lane that he plotted in Action Comics 600, which is also included in here, is really a grand story and does quite a bit of justice to Lois. The story does have some comedy to it, as she is just desperately trying to find Superman, get an exclusive and be able to hunt down this big story and you just appreciate how hard she worked and it's not like she is humorous for trying to pursue the story. You almost feel for her because she goes to all this work to track down this story and nothing seems to work out but you do see the strength of her character even while she tries, which gives it a really good feel. The Action Comics # 600 story is a backup feature featuring Lois that first has her tracking down a big story and getting it shoved to the inside of the paper because of a Superman story, which shows some of her professional frustration and then we get some personal frustration as she is dealing with rumors of a relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman; something that makes sense to a lot of comic book fans. That you have the strongest man, strongest woman; why don't they get together and I think there certainly are people in comics who have tried that angle but it shows how it affects her as it just makes her feel like, well of course how could Superman be interested in a normal woman, how could you possibly compete with Wonder Woman.Taken together this is a short story that just really works well. Even though it's 8 pages long, it gives you some insight into Lois' character. You see her as the hard-nosed reporter but you also still see a sort of vulnerability that makes her relatable. Action Comics #662, first of all, is a good comic. It's a good story about Superman battling Silver Banshee and the conclusion of a multi-issue story involving Silver Banshee and it's also where Superman reveals the truth of his identity to Lois Lane, and of course that's a significant moment. The problem with this book is that the reveal of his secret identity comes right at the end of the issue and it's advertised on the cover so it's not a surprise to anyone. I guess other than it's a surprise that they didn't do a fake out, as often happened in previous ages of the comic but as a Lois Lane story it's a bit dubious decision to include it because she doesn't get to do a whole lot other than worry when Clark runs off and we don't even get to see her reaction to this big revelation.Then we get Lois Lane #1 and this was just a special issue. D.C. Comics was doing a series called Girlfriends, where they took female characters particularly, romantic interest who didn't have their own comic book and gave them their own adventure and this is one where Lois goes vacationing, extensively with Clark, who arrives as Superman but then has to fly off in the middle and she stumbles into a mystery. It's not an amazing comic by any means, but it's a fun read where Lois gets to adventure and save the day and have some fun. Generally, this wouldn't seem like the sort of thing tha...

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SFR 93: Creating and Repurposing Content...

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 20, 2017 24:38

Click above to listen in iTunes.. Here's the Pattern I've Noticed 'the Greats' Following... What's going on everyone. This is Steve Larsen, and you're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business, using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve Larsen: Hey, you guys, super excited for this episode here. I've got somewhat of a treat here. This is a little bit different. One of my buddies, Ben Willson, totally the man, been friends forever with him, actually made my first dollar online with him, while I was in college. He's the man. Anyway, he and I chat all the time, super good friends, and he had a question about content creation strategies and how to go about doing it in a way where it doesn't suck up your entire life. What I wanted to do is drop in a Vox conversation that we had about that very topic. So what I'm going to do is I'm actually ... I have the Voxers right here, and I'm just going to drop them in right here, so you guys can hear them. It is a little bit long, but I think the strategies that I say in here should connect a lot of dots for people and help people understand more about how we can produce so much content in such a little amount of time. This is literally how I am doing it. There's more of this that I'm implementing personally, as well, my own processes. Honestly, when you start looking at about how all the gurus actually create so much stuff, most of them are doing variations of this, if not this exact same thing. So let me go ahead and go over to the episode here, and please let me know if you enjoyed this, and give a shout out to Ben Willson for asking the question and sucking this information out of me, because sometimes I don't realize some of the things I'm doing. I'm just doing them. You know what I mean? So this was helpful. Ben Wilson: What am I doing? What am I doing? How should I say this. I spent eight months creating my first info product before I ever sold any of it. You know that I mean? Eight months, and it sucked, and I thought I was doing it the right way, but it was the total wrong way, because I still had not hung around Russell to realize what he actually was doing. Now, though, I know exactly how he does it, which is awesome. The way he pumps out so many freaking products ... because he has a hold. I mean, granted he's got a graphics guy. He's got a video guy. He's got a Facebook guy. He's got this. He's got this, whatever, but he's still the main creative, you know? He is. He's still the main innovator of products there. What I've noticed, watching him, is that ... so I spent eight months creating that first product, and no one bought it for months after it was done. Instead, and this is the scariest thing on the planet, but it is ... How should I say this? Dude, he sells stuff before he ever, ever starts creating it, and it's the way he rolls it out, and he pre-frames it with everybody, so they know that it's not ready. He says, "Hey, look," two weeks from the time that it starts ... I'm sure that, I've talked about this on my podcast before, so you're probably like... That's how, though, like "Hey, it starts in two weeks. Part of the early bird pricing is we're going to give a little price drop as a thank you. It's $9.97 to join." Then one week out, "Hey, it's one week away, $9.97 to join, early bird pricing." Then on the actual day, "Hey, guess what? It's actually, opened today, but we're still accepting the early bird pricing deal," right? Then a week after you've opened the cart. "Hey, good news. You guys don't have to wait like everyone else did. You can get started right now, for just $9.97." Same thing two weeks in. "You don't need to start. There's already two modules that are already done in there for you." But really, what you're doing is, so that's the surface level that everybody sees but what you're actually doing and this is how I build Secrets Masterclass what you're actually doing is you put an ask campaign onto every single module, so you know at least what the models are gonna be but they're not created yet. So on every single module you have an ask campaign. So let's say the first module was about how to drive Facebook ads and module number two is about how to talk to people on the phone, I don't know I'm just making stuff up. Let's say module number three is about whatever. You would go and you would say, "Okay, I'm so excited for this module with you guys." Sorry, "So excited for this module with you guys." Module number one's going to be all about Facebook ads just so I make sure I've got the content correctly, addressing your needs. What is your number one question or challenge about Facebook ads right now? And they're, when they go through and answer it they're giving the freaking content that they're asking you to create. It's funny because I usually go way past what they're expecting, way overboard. I have totally done that on this [inaudible 00:05:17] products thing. 100%, you know what I mean? Because I'm building stuff that they didn't even know existed, which is fine 'cause I'm going to use it in other areas, but I won't probably sell it like this in the future. Anyway, so that's one way as far as rolling out courses and you probably, I mean you probably know that, I'm sure. Here's another way, I'm just going off the top of my head, like here's several ways of repurposing content like an absolute beast. So we'll have, do you know the difference between, this is also one of the major keys, it's the difference between an opportunity switch and an opportunity stack. If you, I know you've read "Extra Secrets" but, when it's an opportunity stack, those are way easier than opportunity switches, with an opportunity stack and we're just doing like one off sales when they're, "Hey we should sell this," but it's not like a continuity, it's not like easily continuity based thing like, Funnel Immersion, do you remember that? I don't know if you ever saw that but Funnel Immersion was like the back archives of all the treatings he had done for his inner circle. So like 300 bucks. It was amazing. And on day two it was like $400 for the same content. On the third day it was $500 for the exact same content because on the fourth day it closed out and you still can't buy it. If you go to Funnelimmersion.com you still can't buy it but what it did is it let us create a product. Sorry. It let us create a product and get paid for the creation of the product. Okay he doesn't like to create content without getting paid for it. So he always sells it first and then he goes out and he creates the content second. So it's the same kind of thing so all he did was he had these pre-created things and all I did was I aggregated them and we sold it, it made 300 grand in like three days it was ridiculous and we closed it out but now what we know is that that offers awesome. So it becomes a very easy upsell in other funnels. So, I can't remember which funnels I'm part of right now, but you can't buy it on the open web, which is awesome because it's let us say in the pitch now, on the first OTO, "Hey this is literally not available on the internet." You know the back archives of X, Y, and Z is $300 and we know it converts well because it sold so well so he'll take these one off products and make them the upsells inside other funnels where it makes sense to have that thing. And I'm trying to think what other ninja strategies or content tips. The repurposing thing that is totally, I'm sure that's kind of self, I'm sure you've done that before too. That's why I like [inaudible 00:08:20] so freaking much, oh my gosh, I just create one podcast episode and it blasts all over the place on youtube and video platforms and also, tons of social medias and the blog and, it just gets repurposed like a beast. It's kind of cool because if you can get your own content strategy down it lets you feel to the rest of the world your like, a hundred guys. When your just like one or two. Here's another cool strategy that I'm actually gonna start implementing it, especially as I go solo. Dude, I know you've noticed content creation takes for freaking ever and it's a huge pain in the butt so I'm gonna start doing what I've seen a lot of other inner circle people do and actually I've actually already been doing it to a smaller degree. And that is a lot of these guys will bash their content in a serious way. Sorry, dude I'm yawning like crazy, I gotta go to sleep soon. [inaudible 00:09:24]at like 2 AM I gotta go to bed now but anyways so what they'll do is this. They will find themselves a graphics guy and like a general social media manager person. Kay, and what they do is and this is what [John Lee Dumas 00:09:44] does, JLD, entrepreneur on fire, I got to listen to him, got to talk with him, he's a cool guy. They will schedule all of their interviews for their podcasts for all of their content creation or every video they're gonna shoot for that, for the next while, you know, three months even and his team gets it transcribed, takes a picture from it to turn it into a meme, they turn it into a podcast, they turn it into a blog post, into an Instagram thing. Anyway they repurpose it into every platform that you can even conceive in a week's time. So first of all it gets passed to this person and they create a meme out of it. And then they hand it off to the next person and they get the next one and they create it out of the meme out of that one and they hand it off to the next person and this next person what they do is, and this is these ridiculous content generating machines that they put together. Yeah, they don't have to spend all the time creating all this stuff. They spend several days at the beginning of each month. John Lee Dumas, I know he does, he told us that he does his interviews the first two days of every month. So they'll only be one hour interviews but they'll be back to back to back to back. He's like they're killer days. They're good days but they're killer. He's like, "I'm totally rocked by the end of it, but then I hand it off to my team they do the editing, then they put it all together, and then they drip it out. Every single day for the next ever." I mean he podcasts literally every day that's like JLD's thing but that's how though, that's how he does it. Stu McLaren, for his membership sites. Dude that dude makes $627,000,000 a year on membership sites that he only actually spends two weeks a year creating. Most people don't know that. Isn't that crazy? So what he does is his membership sites are heavily based on interviewing experts and each month they get a new expert interview, they get a blog post, they get a behind the scenes thing. A lot of cool stuff and the persons paying them $27 a month or something like that and it could be about recipes. Whatever. What he does is he'll fly in twelve different experts and he interviews them all in a single day and he creates all the content and all the models, all the courses, everything over the next week or two and then it's constantly, it's dripped out, so it's evergreen for each person that comes in and he's set for literally a full freaking year and ... it's behind the scenes of all these guys doing all their content in course generating that has been, it really opened my eyes. To think through, like so I'm gonna start doing that because I got a business to freaking run man. But I got to talk to my audience. I try to podcast at least twice a week that's what I want to do though. Dude publishing has changed my life for that one so I can't not publish. Ben Wilson: Not publishing feels like I'm taking away future of thousands of thousands of dollar per day for my self. Because if I publish and I just make a- Steve Larsen: I'll text her to... Ben Wilson: A following out of it like, I think publishing is as powerful of a skill as... because if you can get publishing down, dude some of the worst YouTubers out there have no idea what they're doing at all but they have these gigantic followings. They don't know how to build funnels, they have no idea how to monetize anything, but they get these massive, massive followings, really, really quickly because they figured out how to publish and be an attractive character and tell stories, which is mostly what it is, it's just story telling. And ... anyway that's seriously what that is though. But that's what I've, anyways that's what I've learned. Here's another cool little tidbit, when these guys go and create courses, so they'll go, they'll go usually whatever easiest to create the actual content that's the medium that they'll go for so like, I do podcasting cause it's really freakin' easy for me to repurpose that stuff and... and turns it into a video for me as it's getting publish, which is awesome so I don't have to make a video. So Russel will film an entire module or even an entire course in a single sitting sometimes. He's got so much backlogged content that he doesn't totally need to do that anymore so well I'll just take and pick and grab different things and repurpose from other courses and, you know what I mean like, I do that all the time. That's what Secrets Masterclass is. And then we filmed a single intro video for each module in just a single shot but what these guys will do though for their courses, they call it thud factor. Okay thud factor is if you were to take a book and drop it on a table from a foot high, like what kind of thud does it get so this is an actual thing called thud factor. I think this comes from Danny Kennedy or something like that. But what they do is this, is when they go and create these courses that put things together, it's the same reason ... Anyway let me tell you the thing and then tell you how I'm doing it. Cause I totally have been, which is awesome. But what they'll do is, they'll go film the whole course, they'll take that, they'll get it transcribed and turn it into a workbook, or a news letter or transcriptions, they'll take the videos, they'll put it into a member's area but they'll also take the videos and put 'em into, they'll put it into 12 thumb drives, it could easily fit on one thumb drive but that takes away thud factor. Kay, in the workbook it would make fiscal sense to print double-sided. They don't. They print single-sided because it's thicker and you have more thud factor. So when you get these boxed sets from these people. You open it up and we all consume content in different ways. I never read blogs, I'm shocked when people read mine, I know it's good to have so I do it. Right? Cause there are people that will read it so someone will each out and say, "Hey, I was reading your blog," and I was like, "Wow I forgot I had one." It's all part of the system I put up. And, "This sounds awesome, X, Y, and Z," but like they've never heard my podcast. They're just reading transcriptions from it. Anyways it's fascinating stuff. Russel has all these box sets, all over his book shelves and what they are is their swipe files to him, meaning it's some guy who had awesome thud factor so they went out and it's this right there's a, first there's an actual iPad that has the course pre-loaded on it or you could listen to it on your computer and there's twelve thumb drives with all the courses spread throughout there. Or if you want there's a notepad where all of it has been transcribed and you get a huge massive, three ring binder and it honestly it could have fit on a two inch three-ring binder but it looks so much better it's on a four to six inch reading binder, you know what I mean? And so you get this box that's huge because what they're trying to create inside the person's mind is finality. If there's finality in the brain, right that gives the warm fuzzies to a buyer that they have found a solution, that they've arrived, they come home, that there's no more reason to look anymore cause I found home. So that's how they're doing that. That's just a whole bunch of different content generating strategies man, when it's all said and done it's all about batching it and especially if you're regularly publishing, it's about batching it. If you're course creating it's usually about selling it first so you know it actually sells and then creating one module at a time with them. So that first group that comes in with you is creating a content with you so that everyone that follows up afterwards and is buying afterwards you know that its awesome content because it was basically user created, they just don't know that. Anyways that's pretty much it though. And then they look for ways to duplicate themselves so live QnA calls are amazing, group QnA not one on one. One on one QnA calls to be sold at for a higher ticket price, higher up in the valley ladder. The group coaching QNA calls are awesome because you can record those, get them transcribed, you can give the audio, you can turn it into a video and make a youtube series out of it. You can take that and get it transcribed and put it into a monthly news letter with, "Hey this is the groups'-" dude, tons of people do that kind of stuff and I used to think it was kind of a joke honestly but it is ridiculous how powerful it is. And like there's tons of people who won't ever get on the QnA calls but they will listen to every single replay. You know what I mean? 'Cause that's how they consume content. I don't ever read blogs, I watch youtube videos and I listen to podcasts. That's how I consume content. I don't ever answer my phone and that's ... it's all about this concept that Russel talking long a Vox man sorry about this. I hope this is okay but it all revolves around a concept called conversation domination, I can't remember who first said that but, we wanna dominate every single channel, dominate every single conversation. Gary V taught that back in the 1950s there were like three different channels. NBC, ABC, and whatever alright there weren't that many and the reason Tony Robbins is Tony Robbins is because back when there was only three channels in the TV, he had ads on every single one of them. That's like how he blew up. Right, I mean that's why he's so big. He dominate, I know it wasn't the 50s but 60s or 70s or something like that. That's why he's Tony Robbins because he dominated those channels and so Gary V teaches that the phone is like the TV of the 70s. There's only three or four channels you got YouTube, there's Facebook, Periscope, you know, if anyone gets on it anymore, Instagram. Those are the channels. It's all about conversation domination so you make sure you are auto publishing to every single one of those platforms as frequently as you can because you'll dominate conversation, there's no other room for someone to even think about something else because you are literally dominating all conversation inside of it so that's why Russel publishes so freaking much. It's way more than a single person or follower or lover of ClickFunnels can ever consume and it's actually on purpose. Anyway, I'm probably preaching to the choir on a lot of stuff. I just, I love this topic because, it's a huge deal. It's a big deal. And it blows my freaking mind when somebody does not take publishing seriously because if they actually want to have a successful business, especially in the social media world, and they're not publishing, they're kidding themselves. I kind of scoff at it honestly, it's like okay. Like cool, this is just a wish for you then, it's not a real thing yet. You know what I mean like that's why I wanna, that's the kind of attitude I have towards people when they're like, "Well I don't know that I wanna be publishing," I was like, "Well, get ready to not make money then." You have to and anyway doesn't have to be crazy either, those are, a lot of those are extreme ways, the way I do it is I literally batch, I'll usually record three episodes at a time in my podcast of each one. I go send it, I get it all transcribed on one shot and I send it over to somebody and she turned it into a blog post and she uses this cool tool called SE Oppressor, which mimics Google algorithm so she can see how my blog will rank before we actually publish it, which is kind of cool. It fully works too, it's why Google Click Funnel my stuff starts popping up all over the place. It's totally worked. Just good, that was what I was going for. And then I give her a schedule to release it all on. That's kind of it. But because of... and how she's pushing it out it blasts to like 18 channels or something so. Anyway those are some long freaking Voxes man but anyway helpfully. Steve Larsen: It's Steven holy crap you that, just pieced it together. You just straight pieced it together. So I've heard a lot of the stuff before but in snippets and in little bits and everything like that. What you just packaged in the, those two boxes, that was mind blowing ... I feel like I owe you lots of money for those two Voxes because that was nuts. I actually, I legitimately I think I'm gonna transcribe what you just said and dude straight up, I would, you should easily just make that a podcast, I wouldn't even change it. Dude thank you for seriously taking the time to answer that question. I was literally what I was looking for and to the depth that I needed it 'cause like I said there's a lot of the information that's been said before but you connected the dots to a lot of things as to how you repurpose the contents and then how you go about creating the content and then repurposing it and dude you're a freaking rock star. That was a lot I literally have to listen to 'em again. Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Wanna get one of today's best internet sales funnels for free? Go to salesfunnelbroker.com/freefunnels to download your pre-build sales funnel today.

tv google abc nbc honestly ipads tony robbins vox larsen periscope greats russel module john lee dumas noticed oto clickfunnels brunson gary v entrepreneur on fire jld qna repurposing content stu mclaren steve larsen danny kennedy right cause sales funnel radio voxers voxes announcer welcome ben willson steve larsen hey

SFR 73: MLM Funnels! Special Interview with Jon Penkert

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 6, 2017 50:57

Ever wonder how the top guys actually make fortunes in MLM? Join us now to hear secrets of the "big guys"... Steve Larsen: What's going on everyone? This is Steve Larsen and you're listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Now this is part six of six. This is the last segment of this whole series. We're gonna talk about MLM funnels. MLM funnels, this is gonna be a little bit of a different sub interview than the other five so far, and the reason being is because in the other five, I have always been interviewing an actual funnel builder, right? Somebody who put the funnel together for their business, their industry, whatever it was. This is a little bit of a different scenario, I have an opportunity to interview an amazing gentleman who has built MLM the traditional way, but without bothering the family members and friends... You guys know that's my whole thing and so, we're gonna learn how he did that without using heavy tech like I use. Does that make sense? So it's kind of a rare look at this. He's done both seven figures personally, both in his MLM, but also in traditional business. Anyway, he's a very, very rare take on MLM and what it takes to be successful with it. Then what I'm gonna do is I'm actually gonna show you guys, or rather talk about and teach, why I have an MLM funnel myself and what it does and what it's done for me, and the whole psychology behind it because it's amazing. I've never seen anybody else do it. There's one other guy who kind of came close, but even then, it actually won't do the full thing that this does. Anyway, I'm excited for this interview. Even if you're not an MLM, I think you'll enjoy the tactics that he uses and how he manages his own business, 'cause I think if we were all to manage his MLM business the way we manage our personal ones, our actual lives would get mentally quieter. There wouldn't be so much noise in our head. Anyway, let's get into the interview... Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve Larsen: Alright you guys, I am super excited that you're here listening with me today. We have a very unique opportunity to hear from, honestly, one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. I actually only met him only a month or two ago, but right off the bat I could tell something was different. I have on the call with me Mr. Jon Penkert, who alone inside of the MLM industry, he's one of the top income earners. He's one of those rare guys that has done both seven figures in regular business, but also seven figures in the network marketing business. One of the things he's taught me is that most people only recruit two and half, two to three people into their MLM business ever. And to say that he's done, which is true, over $500 million in his own downline is absolutely amazing. Anyway, I'm excited to have Mr. Jon Penkert here with me. How are you doing man? Jon Penkert: Hey! Good morning Steve and thanks for having me on the call. It's a privilege to be speaking with you. Steve Larsen: I'm really excited that you're here. This is a very unique take. Most of the time when you hear the word MLM, I'm sure you were the exact same, you tend to run the other way. Most people do anyway, and I know that you've figured out though the way that this whole thing works. But before we jump into that, I actually wanted to ask, how did you get into MLM? Jon Penkert: Well, I was an entrepreneur out of college and moved to southern California. I wanted to take advantage of the business opportunities there and leverage my skills and my degree. When I arrived in California, you know it's kind of the mecca for network marketing, I never really heard of MLM. So, a friend of mine invited me to a meeting and I was very skeptical... It just seemed too good to be true. I couldn't believe all the money they were making. I was like, "Man, I gotta check this out." And it's funny, you say that people run from MLM. What happened is, I started getting involved in network marketing and then people started running from me. Steve Larsen: Exactly! Jon Penkert: I learned very quickly that this MLM business, it's rife with problems. You end up losing a lot of your friends in the beginning 'cause you don't understand what's required to be successful, you don't understand that the key ingredients to network marketing that makes successful champions are no different than any other facet of life. Whether it's business or music or sports, there's a formula to success. Once you figure that out, and you embrace the formula, then guess what? You begin to have this success that you long for... Steve Larsen: Now, did you know what that formula was when you first started? Jon Penkert: No. As a matter of fact, I have about 10 years of pain, which means failure. I learned that success is built on the back of failure. I used to tell people, "I'm the biggest loser in network marketing," because I tried everything and did it wrong. So, I got about 10 years of pain before I figured out, "You know what? There's gotta be a smarter way to do this." Steve Larsen: That's amazing. So, when you first joined though, what happened? What was all that failure? Most people don't talk about the failure parts, but I think we can all relate to it. Jon Penkert: Well, I don't fail small. I failed big. Back in the 80's people in California were making $30,000 a month in network marketing and there was a company called FundAmerica. You can research it... It actually is the case that all the case law studies. It changed the industry, because back then, you paid a lot of money for your membership fees. It was high membership fee to get involved in these clubs, these MLM clubs. The federal government shut them down for illegal Ponzi scheme, and so the big boys like Herbalife and Amway, they all went to school on that and they changed how they come to market. So all the case law for network marketing was really centered around that FundAmerica. You can do the research on the lawsuit. They came out on the other side nine months later innocent and not being convicted of a Ponzi scheme 'cause it wasn't, but it ruined the business opportunity and all the downline had dissipated. All of us that got involved and began to build saw the rug literally pulled out from under us in what we thought was the biggest opportunity of our life and we were all gonna become millionaires. The truth is, you realize if you don't have experienced leaders that have set a foundation to do it right, you're gonna get taken out and there's a lot of examples of that today but the case law began with that FundAmerica opportunity that I was knee deep in and got the rug pulled out from under me. Steve Larsen: So you came in while that was all going on then? Jon Penkert: Yeah, actually I had the misfortune of coming in at the end. I got all my guys in and we started running right as they closed the doors. Steve Larsen: Oh man! Oh my gosh. Jon Penkert: Yeah. Steve Larsen: Did you pick up and go obviously to somewhere else then I'm sure? Jon Penkert: Yeah. Then I got into a couple other companies. I tried the travel industry, it's big in network marketing, and I tried supplements. That's also big in network marketing. The number one product in network marketing is weight loss. We live in a culture that suffers from obesity and everybody wants the quick fix. There's a formula to losing weight, but everybody wants to take a pill so often times in network marketing, companies begin with weight loss. It's very common. The problem with weight loss, for those of you that are in weight loss know that 90 to 120 days into the journey people do one of two things. They lose the weight and get off your product, or they don't lose the weight and they blame your product. You lose your residual income often times in weight loss 'cause people don't stay loyal to the product. Weight loss is a tough way to create residual income. Steve Larsen: Interesting. That is fascinating. So did you deliberately steer away from that? You're asking questions that most people who are brand new in MLM never ask. You know? An awareness of the economy and the market and what's selling and what isn't, it's through the roof. It probably wasn't like that at the beginning though I'm sure, was it? Jon Penkert: Well, it's not. When you look at an opportunity, most people get involved in an opportunity because it's based on hype, right? My really good friend found this product they love and now I love it. We're gonna get rich together, and we're gonna do network marketing. Those are not good reasons to join a network marketing company. Unfortunately, that's how most people get involved in network marketing and then when they don't make the money, then they're like, "Oh, what happened?" There's five pillars of things that are important in network marketing. For those of your listeners that want to do the ... I was like, "Where do I find out about how to be successful?" Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Harvard Business Review actually has a study on MLMs and what it takes to be successful. Go read it. Google it and find out here's the key ingredients that you need to be successful in network marketing. It's out there. It's not a secret. Steve Larsen: That's fascinating. So you go into, was it FundAmerica? And they kind of go under and go through all that big stuff, and then you transfer to another MLM. Now, were you successful you'd say in that one, or were you still learning what it took to be successful with it? Jon Penkert: Yeah. Well, I'm a type A driver and I'm very success oriented. I'm a guy that I'm gonna just try to make it work. I've done a lot of network marketing opportunities, but where I had the light bulb moment, the aha moment, was when one of my friends said ... I said, "Hey, get involved in this one and we're making a lot of money and we're driving the new cars and we're doing all this stuff." And he looked at me and he said, "Jon, you always get the car but none of the rest of us do." That was where I went, "Wait a minute." Steve Larsen: Powerful. Jon Penkert: It's not about how much money I can make or what I can do, I want to find an opportunity where I can mentor people and help them drive the new car. So that was a paradigm shift in my thought process. I said, "You know what? I have to look for something ..." There's a word that is abused in network marketing it's called duplication. I got news for you guys, everything duplicates. Success duplicates and so does failure. If you're using your influence to build your network marketing business, it's not duplicatable and ultimately will fail because your people don't have your influence. But, if you have a system that people can follow to make money, the system will duplicate and then you have an opportunity in network marketing to create a sustainable residual income. The system has to duplicate, you can't just use your influence and that's when the light bulb went off for me. I said, "You know what? It's not good enough for me to be able to do it, I have to enroll people on the journey and will help them actually accomplish their goals." Steve Larsen: That's huge. So from that point on, you went forward and just noticed that it's got to be a system that's duplicatable, rather than you being duplicatable. System wise, what did you go create? What was it that you knew that you had to go do? Jon Penkert: Well, the first thing that I do when I look at a network marketing company, is I say, "Look, I need 90 days to see if the system duplicates." Because once you begin ... most people make the mistake of measuring their success on their signup bonuses, right? "Hey, I went out and got a few people to sign up and they got some people to sign up, and in the first 30 days I made $3,000." That's not a duplicatable system, that's a sales job. The money you make on the front end isn't as important as if I sign you up Steve, and how much money do I make on you four months from now when you're on auto ship? That's the key. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Because if I want a residual income, it's not your sign up bonuses, but it's your monthly auto ship that creates an income for me. Now, if I have a product that doesn't have a monthly auto ship component, you can't create residual income. It's gotta be something that you need or want every month, right? Most people will buy something for a couple of months, but is it sustainable? What does that mean? Well, is it something that, as a consumer, six months from now you're still gonna buy? Because if you're not gonna buy it then I don't have a residual income stream, so I always measure the opportunity not how much money do I make up front, but what kind of residual incomes am I making on an auto ship function three, four, five months out? Then I look at the percentages of growth. If my growth percentage is there, then I've got something. Not the paycheck. If you look at your paycheck in the first two or three months of any opportunity, and measure the long term viability, you're making a mistake. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. Okay, so 90 to prove the system, gotta have the monthly auto ship as a component to the MLM you choose, what other components should people look for when they are choosing one? Jon Penkert: There's a saying in business, remember I'm a ... one of the things that made me successful in network marketing is realizing that my entrepreneurship business skills, in traditional business, they don't translate well to network marketing. When you try to bring your skill set from a traditional business model into network marketing, it doesn't work. It doesn't translate. Steve Larsen: Like what? What do you mean? Jon Penkert: Well, entrepreneurship requires a skill set where you have an ability to take risks and make very quick decisions and cut your losers fast and leverage a skill set more than a system. You try to bring your skills into network marketing it doesn't work because why? [caption id="attachment_1194" align="alignleft" width="430"] Business Colleagues Together Teamwork Working Office[/caption] You're managing a volunteer army, nobody works for you. It's like a sports team, right? Everyone's part of the team and we want to win together, but since no one works for me, I can't hold them accountable. I have to motivate them, which is why network marketing often times leverages self help. Become a better version of yourself, work on yourself. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. Jon Penkert: Because the stronger self you have, the more people you're gonna lead. Steve Larsen: Fascinating. It is all about the motivation then for that. I didn't realize ... I mean, I knew that MLMs kind of like bus op wrapped around ... with the personal development wrapped around it, but that's a fascinating way to describe that though. I've never thought of it that way. Jon Penkert: You said what's important? What do I look for? Sports parallels business that parallels network marketing, and what am I talking about? Leadership is the number one thing that has the biggest impact on your success. Why is that? Because the rate of the pack is determined by the speed of the leader and it doesn't matter if you look at successful sports teams or businesses or network marketing, you gotta have good leadership. That's one of the things that I leverage going into an opportunity is are the leaders experienced? Are they just a bunch of guys that found a product and have never run a network marketing company? Or are their leaders proficient at the global business model? Because, listen you guys, today network marketing is the business model of the 21st century. There is no greater. What you are going to get paid to do is monetize networks that you build globally, not networks locally in a local market, but your ability to sell products and services globally in a global market place. Which means what? Language conversion, currency conversion. You monetize global networks, you want to be with a leader who's done that before. Somebody who's opened up other countries. Someone who understands logistically how to deliver products into those countries because you can have the greatest product in the world but if you don't have a leadership team that can deliver, you're gonna end up with a lot of unhappy customers. Steve Larsen: What are you doing to train people below you to become leaders? Like you said, that really does seem where all that duplication is even possible. Jon Penkert: I have my own philosophy on leadership. In the leadership circles, I've studied leadership and there's a great argument in leadership, and it's are leaders created or are they born? Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: They go back and forth on that question. The truth is it's neither. Leaders aren't born. You're not a born leader and you can't just choose someone and create a leader. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: I like to look at leadership one of two ways. You're either a cheerleader, which sits at the back of the room and encourages everybody to be the best they can be and go out there and charge and go do it. Then there's the servant leader that says, "You know what? I'm going first. I'm gonna go and go across the river and swim across and make sure it's not dangerous and make sure it's attainable. And then I'm gonna encourage my people to follow me." Leaders are neither born nor created, leaders are chosen... The masses will choose to follow you if you're cutting the path and doing the right things and having the success. Success attracts success. So as a leader moves forward quickly, there creates a vacuum that people will follow. So my definition of a leader, first and foremost, is the visionary who's following the path and setting the right example and the people will follow. Steve Larsen: That is definitely the best definition of leadership I've ever heard. Okay, a cheerleader or a servant leader and you're chosen by others based on you cutting the path and being an example. Wow, that's amazing! So you go out and you're teaching others to do that obviously, because you've chosen an MLM with the monthly auto ship and you have to develop new skills, you now have the potential for actual residual income. What are you doing to actually find people? It was fascinating, you told me when I first met you ... what do you say? The average person recruits only like 2.3 people in their life ever? Jon Penkert: Well the industry standard, and look, these are standards. Jim Rohn is a great leader and champion of network marketing. You can't beat the system and the system says the average person is gonna recruit 2.5 people in their career. So what network marketing companies try to do is they try to attract the superstar recruiters that are gonna recruit 200 people, but just do the math. Eventually, if you have a system that requires the average person to recruit more than 2.5 people for instance, well you're gonna set them up to fail. You can't beat, basically, the laws in network marketing. Steve Larsen: Interesting. Okay, so one of the other pieces you've taught just floored me. I mean, I just was blown away by this strategy. Before I did any marketing, I actually was going into CIT. I was gonna be a programmer, and I was learning about these things called binaries but you dropped that word and it meant something totally different for MLM world. Do you mind describing what it is that you were sharing with me? Jon Penkert: Well let's take a step back. The one thing that's consistent in life is change. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Change is always gonna happen. If you'd have come to me 10 years ago and said, "Jon, I got an MLM and it's a binary. Will you join?" I don't want to join that because an old school definition of a binary, the way they set them up really hurt people. The fairest comp plan was the uni-level. There's matrix and there's different comp plan styles and different hybrids, but all of the legacy companies ran a uni-level platform. The truth is, in a uni-level, you've gotta bring your 20 friends into a room, get them signed up, push them out, say, "Go get your own 20 friends. That's how I make residual income, but you gotta go to work and get a job." Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: That really catered to the type A drivers who could recruit, but it doesn't help the average person. Why? Because the average person is only gonna bring in a couple of people and now you need a front line of 20. So it begins to unravel. Now I say that, I made a lot of money in uni-levels, but today, the hybrid binary's serve the masses the very best. Now why do I say that? Because if you have a system where the average person is gonna get 2.5 people recruited and you have a three-legged system, four-legged system, five-legged system to be successful, you're setting yourself up to fail. But if you have a binary system, which is a two-legged system, and you're building a team and 100% of the people as the recruiter that you bring in, either go onto your left team or your right team, that means each person benefits from not only your ability to recruit, but I've set them up to succeed because their 2.5 people does what? It qualifies them. One left, one right and now they have at least a half a person overflow into their downline, so now every person's adding to this success of the system and the system supports the 2.5 people they're gonna get. If that makes sense. I know sometimes when you talk about numbers, people get a little foggy but that's the reason the binaries today are the best leverage point to create residual income. Steve Larsen: So for example then, just so everyone understands on who's listening as well, my first month of MLM was a classic example of ultimate failure. I did a great job of recruiting people. I literally went down Main Street and I recruited 13 people in that first month, but I spread them so wide. You know? They were out all over the place, and you're saying that's not what I should do, right? Jon Penkert: Yeah, let's look at it. I like analogies in life. If you take a very large room and you have all of these light bulbs that are lighting the room, the light source defuses the light and it lights the room. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: But that's not maximizing the energy. Laser beams maximize the energy. If you took all the light and you focus it into a small beam you can cut steel with it. When I'm running a team, as a leader, I want to maximize their efficiency. I don't want them focused on 10 legs on their front line, I want them to run this business with maximum leverage. Two-legged systems does what? It focuses their time and energy in basically two streams, so you're not defusing your energy. You're focusing energy and your teams can run faster. Steve Larsen: Just in case people don't understand also the lingo or jargon, you're saying only two-legged meaning I'm only gonna put two people directly below me, right? And then try and do that for the people below them also, right? Jon Penkert: Yeah. In a binary system, I sign you up Steven and you go get two people. One left, one right. They get two people. One left, one right. Now, when you get the third person in the business, it has to go under Team A or Team B. Now, what's happened is those people that have joined you in the business opportunity, they take advantage of their upline, your ability to recruit, to help them build their residual income. That's powerful... That's what J. Paul Getty said when he said, "Look, I'd rather have 1% of a hundred people's energy, than a 100% of my own." Right! I want to join a team of leaders that are recruiting because I'm gonna bring my two people, and my people are gonna bring their two people. Then, the overflow, you have an opportunity now to gain the advantage of your upline's recruiting ability. If that makes sense. Steve Larsen: Yeah, it really does actually. That's fascinating. Now, when you were saying that all binaries are not created equally as well, I guess compared to what you just said right there, could you show what a bad binary would look like? Jon Penkert: Well, I hesitate to step into that because there's a lot of people that make extraordinary incomes in uni-levels, and extraordinary incomes at what I would consider a bad binary. There's good binaries and there's, let's say, better binaries. Right? I look for best in class and there's a series of things that are qualifiers that will tell me, "Is this a good deal or isn't it." Honestly, I'm gonna step aside for a second you guys. Look, you don't do this business by yourself. When I lead people, I tell them, "Look, you're a sum total of the five people that most influence you. Who are the five people that surround you?" My life is no different. I've got very good leaders around me that I consult with. When we look at a comp plan, I don't look at it by myself. I get my business partners to pick it apart as well 'cause I'll only see a certain deficiency, but I've got guys that break it down. They go, "Look, here's why it'll succeed and here's why it won't." I don't just rely on my own ability to analyze. I've got strong partners around me and each of you should do that. Your upline, your upline's leadership, and the downline, the people that you're attracting into your business. You have to surround yourself with strong people. That's a business acumen issue, that's not just MLM. It's good business. Steve Larsen: You've completely opened my eyes to more of these. The way you run the business is fascinating. Even the fact that you said, that I have a business card. Why don't you have your own business card to hand out to everyone? You don't run it really cool man. It's so awesome. Jon Penkert: I don't have a business card because I want my people to trust me. As a leader, if you lose trust, you lose everything. So when I go in and speak, I'll speak in front of rooms of 20 people and 2,000 people, but what happens is people come up to me and they say, "Hey, Jon. I want to join your team. I want to be apart of your deal. Or do you have a business card so I can contact you?" I'm not there to recruit my people's people. The only way you get ahold of me is really through one of my leaders. So I don't have a business card because I'm not looking to recruit anybody. The other thing is what I've learned in the business as well is, even if I come across a cold prospect on an airplane if I give them my business card, I have a 100% chance of them never calling me. They just don't follow up. Steve Larsen: Yeah. Jon Penkert: But if i say, "You know what? I don't have a card but let me get your number and I'll follow up with you." Now I've taken control of the relationship. It's amazing how I always have a chance to follow up with them if I don't give them a business card. It's part of a business progress, but it's also part of my leadership where I don't want people thinking I'm gonna cross-recruit their people. I work for them, and when I'm in one of their business meetings, then you can always contact me through them. If they want to give out my phone number, they can. That brings up another subject that you ... I'm gonna keep rambling here. Steve Larsen: Nah, I love it. Jon Penkert: What happens is, as you build these teams ... I've only recruited, best effort, between 30 and 40 people in any network marketing company I've ever been in because once you start building a team, I start working for my downline. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: So when I go into your home, I meet your 20 people, guess what? There's two or three of them that want me to help them build their business and I meet their 20 people. The masses that I've created, I've done one person at a time partnering with them and building their business. So I don't have to recruit a lot of people personally. All I have to do is be a leader and work with my downline and the masses will come if you do that. Steve Larsen: Yeah, it's great. It's absolutely great. And so, if you go out and you have that servant leader attitude, obviously that we've been talking about, and ... Anyway, I'm taking huge notes right now, just so you know. I'm drawing circles around all the key pieces and putting it together because this is really awesome. I hope all you guys listening are doing that too. I do that for every one of the people I interview. This is really, really interesting. So, if I'm brand new in MLM, brand spanking new or say I just joined a new one or whatever, what are the first key pieces you'd have me do as a new person into an MLM? Let's say it's in the chosen one you like where there's a binary with it, there's auto ship, all the pieces are play. What would my roles be? Jon Penkert: Well, I would seek, as fast as I can, who's in my upline and who the leaders are because the upline leaders are waiting for their phone to ring with their downline because they want to work with them and they want to help build the business. You might as well leverage their experience because I guarantee you're two friends that you bring in, they don't know anything more about the company than you do. Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: The closer you can get to your upline leadership, the better that it is. I tell you what, here's what I wish I would have done and for all you guys that are new to the business, I wish when I was out of college I would have gone and looked in ... You know, the DSA today, there's about 20 to 22 legacy companies that do over a billion dollars. We're in an industry that does $130 billion globally. There's about 20 companies that actually do over a billion. I wish that I would have found a product that I really liked and believed in, and then joined the legacy company for a couple reasons. Because then I would have learned the successful tactics and strategies of a network marketing company and I would've got connected to leaders in the industry because if you think that five years from now, somebody's not gonna come out with the latest and greatest something and turn it into a network marketing company, you're wrong. The relationships that you build will sustain you throughout your career. So, I wish I would have just gotten involved in really good companies and learned some principles and met amazing leaders because that's what network marketing's about. It's about connecting great leaders. Any of your listeners, go find a good company and get involved with them, not because you're ... I hope that you spend the next 20 years with them, but you probably won't because the truth is, when you're looking for a good network marketing opportunity, the one thing that I cannot teach or coach you is something called timing. Well, the time to get in those companies, honestly, was 20 years ago when they started. Right? Now you're not gonna create ... it would be a rare person, somebody probably will to prove me wrong but, the average person isn't probably gonna get in there and create an extraordinary six figure income because they've had their run. I want to look for a company that's been around for a couple years, they've got their ground work underneath them, they're doing 40 to 50 million a year, and they haven't hit momentum. The key is pre-momentum, and you'll get that in the Harvard Business Study Review, when you read it. You want a company pre-momentum, so that you're the one that is building the legacy and the income. When they do a billion dollars, you've helped them grow from 50 million to a billion. That's what you look for, is timing. That's the one thing that you can't teach or coach, is to be in the right place at the right time. Steve Larsen: That's interesting. Do you have any tips for how you find a company that's pre-momentum? Jon Penkert: Very difficult. You gotta keep your ears open and be connected to a lot of people, which is why I said ... you know, if I was ... a great opportunity for even college kids. I think every college kid, the skills that you learn in network marketing will carry you through the rest of your life. Go out and find a good company that you believe in the product and get involved and learn how to create these residual incomes because it's those people that you need that are gonna introduce you to the next big run. Steve Larsen: Yeah, and I appreciate that that's what the advice you said, if I was brand new. First, know the leaders, know your upline. I never took the time to do that my first round at it. I joined one, seriously, just 'cause my buddy was in it. I mean it was the exact opposite of what you just said I should do when I did that four years ago. Pretty much every entrepreneur I know is out there, whether or not they'll admit it, has been part of an MLM. It's such an awesome career. It's a great place to go to. The reason, obviously, why a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth is because some over eager upline person turned around and badgered their family and badgered their friends and, honestly, hurt some relationships. How do actually recruit? How do you get to getting leads in this industry without actually hurting those relationships? You know what I'm trying to ask? That was poorly worded. Jon Penkert: What happens often times, people get in these network marketing opportunities, they look at it as a "get rich quick" scheme. Right? Like, how can I make money off of you and your friends? Steve Larsen: Right. Jon Penkert: Then they get disappointed because that mindset fails them. It's really not the servant leader model, and so, when I talk to people who have been hurt been network marketing and we've all been in a network marketing company that didn't work out for lots of reasons. Steve Larsen: Sure. Jon Penkert: But I always tell them ... Zig Ziglar I think said it best. He said, "Create enough opportunity for people and give them what they want, you'll end up getting what you want." And so, what I've learned in network marketing, especially if I've dealt with similar experience, I'll say, "What are the things that your upline didn't do for you?" I teach them to be the upline that they wish they had. People resonate with that. They realize, "If I do the things for my downline that I wish my upline had done for me, I'll create extraordinary success." And again, that's that leadership model of leading by example and not being a cheerleader. I'm gonna get in there and do the hard work with them because together we can do great things. That's really what I try to get people to focus on. When they have bad experiences in network marketing is, "Hey, let's you and I be the leadership team for your downline, that you wish you had." And so, "Be the upline that you wish had," is my best practice. Steve Larsen: I appreciate that answer. I very strongly do believe in an element of business karma, if you go around and you start trying to help people and you put out legitimate value out there. It may not happen all at once, there's got to be this mentality of dropping your anger and not moving forward for a while, it's not a "get rich quick" thing, but eventually you do get what you'd like. It'll come, and almost be surprising, over night. Just kind of show up. That's great... Jon Penkert: What people don't realize is that you attract what you put out there, so if you don't like what you're getting, take a step back and look at what you're putting out. Steve Larsen: Do you have any last pieces of advice for someone who, let's say they're in one, they like the product, there's not really a whole lot moving along ... what should someone be involved in daily, those tasks, those rituals that keep them engaged in the process? Jon Penkert: The biggest thing that I can do for each one of your listeners is ... You guys, take a deep breath and look in the mirror, because the number one quality that drives my business overall, is a belief in your self. You have to believe in yourself. Find a company with integrity, with a great product, and a good comp plan but then, look in the mirror and go, "You know what? You are at the right place at the right time. You were chosen for this opportunity and go get it." Because I can't stop a person that 100%, rock solid believes. They will go out and break every barrier out there if they just believe. Steve Larsen: Yeah. Jon Penkert: As a leader, most often, all I do is get people to see that they have everything that they need to succeed. They just have to believe and go do it. Steve Larsen: Very enlightening, very fascinating. I appreciate that a lot. Now, you've obviously mentioned you don't have a business card and you work with the people directly under you, if people wanted to reach out or learn more about what it is you're doing or some kind of an action follow-up after this podcast, where should people go? What should people do? Jon Penkert: Well, Steven I totally appreciate and respect you and I'm glad that you invited me to be on your broadcast. This, for me, was really a favor to you. It wasn't an opportunity for me to recruit. I don't think I'm that great anyway, but I think that you find out who I am and what I'm in and you want to get involved, I would say embrace a local leader in your local market that's on my team that's great. I'm not here to recruit people, I'm just here to support. If they want to reach out to you, you know how to get ahold of me. Let's work it that way. Steve Larsen: Sounds good. We'll do it that way. Awesome. Jon, thank you so much. I appreciate that. This has been fantastic. Jon Penkert: Well, it's my absolute pleasure and I look forward to working with you in the future. I'll tell you something. In life, when you get two people ... I love the mastermind principle. You get two people, it creates a third more powerful mind. You can change the world getting two people committed and believing in themselves and moving in the right direction. So, I thank you Steven for what you bring to the table and your commitment to success. Steve Larsen: Alright you guys. Now at this time, what I want to do is to show you guys a little bit more about the actual funnel that I've been using to recruit for downlines. It's amazing. I came up with the concept about four years ago. I never thought that it would actually come to fruition as quickly, or as powerfully, as it has. What happened, basically, is I joined this MLM and it was terrible because I literally went down Main Street. We just found out that my wife was pregnant with our first kid and I was excited, but really honestly, I was scared out of my mind because I had no money. I had nothing... I know a lot of people listening to this are still trying to figure out what there thing is and they're still trying to create with their product or what ever it is, their first successful funnel or whatever. Just know that I know the feeling, right? What happened was, basically, my buddy came in and he recruited me. He said, "Hey, come join this," and I was like, "No. That's a stupid multi-level marketing thing. I'm not gonna do that." I ended up joining his after he was begging. But I did it with the reason in mind like, "You know what? This could pay for the birth of my child." I was like, "Hey, the clock's ticking. I got nine months. Let's go do this." What I did is I started studying and reading and I was literally going door to door. I was like, "If I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it 100%." And so, I literally did, I went down Main Street and I recruited 13 people my first month. First off, I just want to say, I'm never ever gonna tell you the name of the MLM. That's not the purpose of this. I'm telling you this, "You can use what I'm telling you right now in any MLM." Okay? I'm just gonna get that big elephant out of the room real quick. I was studying one night, and I realized that after I recruited those first 13 people, I was like, "Yes, this is awesome. This is totally duplicatable. I got all these people now." The problem was that literally none of them did anything at all. I literally had to take a cattle prod. I remember driving once three or four hours, something like that ... Yeah, it was three hours, three hours in a single day. I think so. Anyway, it was a long way ... just to meet with somebody just to see if they had actually done anything because they wouldn't answer the phone calls. I couldn't motivate them. I was like, "This is not sustainable. This is not duplicatable. Whoever told me this was passive income was lying."That was my attitude, and there was an element of truth to that. I was like, "There's got to be a better way to do this." What happened was, one night, it was like 3 a.m. in the morning or it was 2 a.m., 2 a.m. in the morning, I had class in a few hours. I was still in college, obviously. I was reading and all of sudden this guy ... I can see his face, I don't remember the eBook, I don't remember what company, I don't remember anything. I just remember hearing the concept "paid prospecting". I was like, "What? Is this real? Is this true?" Now, this is the dark ages. This is pre-ClickFunnels days or about the time they were launching actually. I was like, "This is fascinating, and you mean, you get paid regardless if somebody joins you? Fascinating. What?" I had this idea, what if I gave ridiculous value upfront, for free, for something and then something small paid, kind of like mid-tier, and then something more high ticket in the backend, and those people are the people that I go approach. Not family and friends. I can honestly say, and still say, that to this day there have been people, four years, me approaching them about MLM it hurt the relationship. I was like, "This is garbage. I'm not gonna do this. If this is what this industry is about, I don't want to do it." I know a lot of you guys are the exact same way. I was like, "What's this funnel thing?" I had been building, basically the equivalent of funnels, in WordPress prior, before ClickFunnels days. I had a whole bunch of my own clients. It was a lot of fun. We had successes. We had failures. This is the story, you know? Basically, what I realized is like, "What if I created this thing? I'll go film it." What I did is I basically funnel hacked. Again, I didn't know that was the term or whatever, but I went and I started looking at all the top MLMers who are out there. I started asking like, "What are they actually doing?" And you know what's funny is that after a couple of months of just deep diving into each of these guys, I realized that none of them were doing home meetings, none of them were doing hotel meetings, they're not going getting on the phone, none of them were going to their family and friends. They had created for themselves something unique. But what they did all have, every single one of them, had the equivalent of a funnel. They had their own website. They had the equivalent of a Webinar. It was interesting. It was so stark when I started looking at it. I was like, "This is the way to do that. Why have I been doing it the other way?" So what I did is I literally was taking some of these top guys courses... I was transcribing them. I was turning into my own. I was adding whole courses and elements to it. I went and I re-shot stuff. I put things together. It was one of the coolest things ever. It took me eight months, 'cause I was in the middle of college, I was in the army, we had our first kid. It took me a while to get it out, but when I did, nobody bought it at first. I had done a terrible job going around and sharing it with people. Honestly, what was really happening is I was graduating. There was a lot stuff happening. There just was. I was trying to become an officer. There was a whole bunch of stuff that was happening in my life and so I moved on. But some dude stumbled upon it and was like, "Oh my gosh! This is absolutely insane. Why are you not selling this more?" And I was like, "You know what? That was pretty cool." I went and I launched it and it was like massive, waterfall response. So many people just started coming out of the wood work, people I'd never heard of. I was like, "Holy crap! This is working." Pretty soon, I had a waiting list of like 12 people begging to join my MLM. I was like, "What the heck? This totally worked! Oh my gosh!" Anyway, fascinating. Well, it was my first attempt at making something that was bigger and there was a lot of things that were wrong with it. I had been redoing the entire thing and putting it all together. Basically, this is what happens, right? Just like Jon was saying. One of the problems is that people have not learned how to become attractive. I'm not saying good looking or whatever. I'm sure your all drop dead gorgeous. But you're not attractive yet. In MLM, you have the same product. You have the same service. You have the exact same scripts, the exact same websites. There's literally nothing different about you. Why would I join you over somebody else? There's no reason. There's no reason to. The one currency that you really have is you. You must be different. There's really two currencies, but that's the first one. The first currency, you must be different. You have to be sellable. You must know you. You've gotta find your voice. You've gotta know your message. That's what this new course that I've been talking about is gonna come out and talk about. Anyways, it's been a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun putting it together. So, first of all, that's model number one. It talks about becoming attractive and how you actually attract people to you, how you create things and products that are free, that just deliver a crap ton of value because if you can do that, it will pull people to you in a really fascinating way. Right? You'll be giving before you ever ... you'll be leading with value before you ever even mention the fact that you have an MLM, right? I never even tell anyone about it ever. They have to find it through my funnel, and when they do, then I'll talk to them about it. Otherwise, it becomes this awkward thing and you have side agendas with every conversation. I hate that. I'm so against that. That's the reason I put this stuff together. Anyway. Second thing that it talks about is validating. So now if you've got people in through free stuff and you've attracted people in, the second part is a validation thing meaning I need to validate how serious this person is. If someone spends a little bit of money on marketing education for their MLM, I know they're serious. And so that's what I created. It was like a free plus shipping thing. And when someone bought it, I was like, "Hmm. This is not your standard MLMer." There's well over 10 million MLMers in America alone. Like, "Okay, this person already is separating themselves from the remainder of the people." And that's what I wanted. The third part then was now that I've pulled them in, I've qualified them, now it's all about the duplication and actually selling them. Right? That's what I use Webinars for and no one really has ever seen that before, which is awesome. Very few people have which is so freaking cool, anyway. But the Webinar goes in and auto closes and recruits and gets them signed up. It's amazing. Then after that, then it talks about some of this downline management stuff where I'll show you how to rob your downline. Meaning, there's a really good way to do this and a really bad way to do it and Jon touched on that, which is all about binaries, but, the right way to do them. Yes, the principles amazing, but there's a right way to do it just like he was talking about. You know, leadership training. I'm gonna have a lot of cool stuff. I'm gonna talk about when to rinse and when to repeat. How do you tell? It's weird to think of it like this, but it is a business and if someone's not doing their thing, might be time to rinse. If someone's run along with you and they can run with you, time to repeat. You do that through a very specific thing, and I'm not gonna give the golden nugget away, alright? There's a golden nugget to it. I'm totally gonna bait you guys. It's been ridiculous. Just the paid prospecting aspect of what I built up alone, without any ad spending, I made 50 grand last year. It was nuts. No ad spend, nothing else, it's just up, just talkable word to word, mouth to mouth. I didn't talk to anyone about it. There's very specific strategies I used and the people that are coming to me are asking to join. I don't even tell them I'm in one. Have I even told you what I'm in? No, and that's the reason why. That's why this is so powerful and why I've been so passionate about it... People are like, "Steven, MLM? Seriously?" Well, yeah actually. If you know how to work the system in a good way, if you know how to create a new opportunity, if you know how to create an offer, if you know how to do marketing, if you know how to do everything that Russell teaches, then yeah. Why the heck would you not, if you can do that? Then, the last part that it teaches you how to do, what it is shows you is I call it "pick your megaphone", "choose your megaphone", meaning, just choose one traffic source. Anyway, there's way more to it. There's a lot more that's been going on that you guys have no idea about that I totally kept from you for the last six months. It's been so sweet, all the pieces coming into play. Software pieces ... it's been great. It's been really great. I can honestly say very proudly that there's no one else on the planet that's been doing what I'm doing and it's ... Ah, it's so cool. I wish I could tell you more, but I can't. Anyway. That's what I want to talk about funnel-wise though, alright? Funnel-wise, and please understand, again, I'm not here to pitch. I'm just here to tell you what I've been doing because this is the sixth segment of this series, which is all about MLM funnels. So, what I've been doing, is I've been pumping ridiculous value into the MLM space. I know it's so good that people should be paying for it, and they know that. That's the feeling that I want them to have. Then I go through and I qualify them through something that's free and ... I'm sorry, something that's free plus shipping or whatever it is. Low ticket, 47 bucks. Honestly, I don't really think it matters that month. All your doing is your vetting out the good people. What's funny is that little vet move that I've been doing, I've talked to more owners of MLMs from that one thing than any other thing. You get the kind of fish that you put the bait out for, right? You know what I mean? Put better bait out, you get better fish. And so, I created a vetting system... Funnels are not just ways to increase our average cart value. They're also ways to vet people. That's exactly what an application style funnel is. You're trying to have them apply. You want to sift out the dirties, the people who are just never gonna do anything with you or who are just the kind of people who you help like crazy but they'll always complain or the people who just won't go take action. You know what I mean? I don't want those kinds of people and I know you don't want it either. So, first I attract through a lot of different ways, really amazing things actually. Then the second part is all about some kind of qualifier, money-wise. Paid prospecting, gotta charge. Right? Then after that, then I go close them through some more automated processes, specifically through Webinar funnels. That's what's been working for me and that's why I've been doing it. Anyway, I'm not the focus of this interview. I just wanted to be able to toss in more of what I've been doing funnel-wise to you, so that you have an idea that there is actually a really awesome way to do it without ever talking to family, every talking to friends, and if you want to, that's fine. I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing it. I'm just telling you that I am really against that and I don't do it for a lot of reasons. I specifically target the kind of individual that I want. I want someone who's a rockstar, someone who loves marketing. You know what I mean? Those are the kinds of people. Then what I do is I ... My team is very, very, as far as my own personal downline management strategies or whatever, I feel almost weird saying this to you guys, 'cause this is not the typical audience that I say this kind of stuff to, but what I do is I say, "Hey, look. I'll give you my entire marketing system if you come join." You know what I mean? Those are the things that you create yourself that make you attractive, otherwise, you're the same thing. Now, as far as a product standpoint, and fulfillment standpoint, and having to worry about customer service, MLM is fantastic because you don't have to worry about any of that. They take care of all of it... There's really ridiculous advantages to being a part of it. It truly can be passive if you set it up the right way. The problem is that most multi-level marketers, network marketers, have no idea how to market. And you're like, "What on earth is so..." Anyway, that's what I've been doing and it's been kicking butt. Anyway, it's been great. Not trying to be cocky, I'm just excited. Anyway, if you are interested though, go check out secretmlmhacks.com just to see what I'm doing. Again, not pitching you, not trying to be weird or whatever. Just so you guys can see how I've been doing it. If you love your MLM, stay in it, which is awesome. So anyway, go to secretmlmhacks.com to watch real time what it is that's been going on there in the MLM world. Alright. Hey, guys, that's been the last part of this series. I've loved doing this with you guys. I've loved going through this six part series. I have more interviews that I've already lined up. Might be the next one, might not be. But anyway, we're gonna get back into ... Usually I try and publish two times a week, but these have been an hour long, almost every single one of them. Now, if you really want to watch behind the scenes, as far as my hands, watch the magician hands, the real purpose behind these, yes it was to provide amazing value but there is something else that I did these interviews for that will help you. Anyway. Keep watching everything that's going on. I think you guys will enjoy it and please, these speakers have done amazing things, they have dropped insane value. I want you to know that the listenership has well more than doubled because of these. It's not because I know that I'm great or anything like that. I has nothing to do with that. It's because I understand the value these guys have been pumping out there... Anyway, I've got a great follow-up episode already that I'm gonna be doing. I think you guys will like the next one. I'll talk to you guys later. Hope you enjoyed it. Reach out to the speakers, tell them thank you so much. And go take some serious action, and you will enjoy successes. Alright guys, talk to you later. Bye! Announcer: Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnel for free? Go to salesfunnelbroker.com/freefunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.

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SFR 70: Ecomm Funnels! Special Interview with Bryan Bowman

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 16, 2017 62:44

Amazon, Walmart, Etc. Secrets of the ecommerce world ... What's going on, everyone? This is Steve Larsen and you're listening to another fantastic episode of Sales Funnel Radio. Now, this episode is part three of our six-part series where I'm diving deep into the six different categories of people using ClickFunnels to blow up their businesses. This episode is all about eCommerce and there's a lot of ways to pull off eCommerce, there's a lot of ways to do it, and a lot of questions that everyone know who's in eCom has the answer from their beginning. Am I going to self-fulfill? Am I going to drop ship? Am I going to go for high ticket, low ticket, high volume? Am I going to brand it? Is it just going to be a straight sell and one off? Is it going to be community behinder? Am I going to be the brand behind it? There's a lot of things involved with eCommerce much like any business but I think I really enjoy what my guest today has to offer. I would take notes, see how he's doing it. He's got a great community behind him called ecomunderground.com and he's got a cool little offer for you guys at the end which I think you'll enjoy. Anyway, massive value, it's free for you so anyway, I think you guys will enjoy it. Let's jump into this episode and we got three others coming up deep into the industries that I know out of one of the six applies directly to your business. I hope you guys will enjoy the series so far, let's jump right into it. Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales funnels and now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve Larsen: All right, guys. How is it going? I have with me a very special guest today and honestly one of my favorite categories of sales on the internet in general, very excited to learn more of the deep, dark ninja secrets of how to make this work. We're going to talk about eCom strategies today with the expert and my friend, Bryan Bowman. How are you doing, man? Bryan Bowman: I'm doing amazing. How are you doing, Steve? Steve Larsen: I'm doing awesome, living the dream. Doing really good. Hey, thanks for being on the show here, like I say and eCom is probably one of my favorite, one of my favorite personal category for income generation, whether someone doing it on the side or it's a full-time thing. What a lot of people would probably realize is that when Russell went out and hired this data scientist to come through and look up through all the users of ClickFunnels and try and find patterns, eCom was actually the highest revenue generating industry overall out of all of them. Everything, info products, I mean anything. If you guys want to pay attention, I mean, get a piece of paper out, take notes. Bryan is going to drop some massive gold here and super excited for you guys to learn more about eCom which is a space I'm personally very interested in as well. Anyways, Bryan, if you can just let us know how did you even get into eCommerce? It's a newish industry as far as kind of the wave of the internet taken over things. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, yeah, for sure, man. I mean, first of all, just to back up what you're saying, there is something really powerful about selling physical products. Steve Larsen: It's so cool. Bryan Bowman: This is something that I'll talk about a little bit but I do want to talk about how you don't have to choose one or the other and this is really what a big part of my message is right now because it's what we're doing in our brands and it's what's working in my community with my students is that what I have found, because I'm really, really entrenched in the physical product sellers universe or world. There is this mindset that it has to be one or the other. Where I'm really shaking things up is I'm telling people that we can have it all and physical products have their own power but info products have their own power as does a third category of product that I'm going to encourage those who really want to build a well-rounded business and a business that's going to be sellable and build an empire that I think they need to have as well. We'll leave that for a minute and I'll answer your question, I'll answer the first part of this which kind of like my backstory. Yeah, man, I've been involved in selling I guess products online or physical products for a long time. For me, it was really a hobby like literally all the way back to college I was buying, it was crazy, I would buy books and I still to this day I'm understanding why this worked but it's still a little confusing to me. I would buy books on eBay and then turn around and sell them on Amazon. The quickest arbitrage ever. Steve Larsen: It's straight up arbitrage, that's awesome. Bryan Bowman: That is available to everyone like everyone can go on eBay but I mean, I'm kind of joking like not understanding why. I mean, it's because of the confidence Amazon has. People trust Amazon so much so some people feel like a little sketchy about eBay, maybe they don't want to buy from there and literally I would buy textbooks for five bucks and sell them for 55 on Amazon. It was crazy. Steve Larsen: Geez. Bryan Bowman: That was like a little side gig in college but I've been always leveraging the internet to sell physical products but really where it got really serious for me was about four years ago and for some of your listeners, they maybe selling on Amazon or maybe they've heard about this Amazon gold rush that's happening and four years ago it's kind of the wild west. I mean, FBA was around but not a lot of people were using it. That's where I started and basically FBA is where you can send in all your products to Amazon. They fulfill the orders and you just create the brand and ship everything off and then list on Amazon. Now, that was awesome. You're leveraging Amazon's traffic which is very cool. At the time, I need to figure out what I was going to do because we've talked about this a little bit, Steve. My wife was having some health issues and we were just trying to figure out what do we do because I needed to be home more, there's no way I could keep working my corporate job as actuarial consultant like traveling all over the place. I needed to figure out a side hustle that was going to make some extra money and ultimately free me from my job and that's really why I double down. Literally I would work all day long in a cubicle like nine to five either traveling, doing actuarial stuff, come home, eat dinner, and from like 7 PM till 3 in the morning, I was creating listings, working with my designers in Germany. Then I was talking to manufacturers in China at 1 AM because they are like on the complete opposite time as us in the U.S. and I'd be Skyping with them, seeing the factory, seeing samples. It was crazy. That's how we launched our first brand on Amazon and started leveraging that platform and really pretty quickly I think maybe because I had that actuarial background and understood the numbers which is another huge, huge thing guys. Those of you listening, I don't care what you're selling in your funnels and whatever industry you're in, you have to know your numbers. People usually don't like to talk about math, they shy away from it but you need to know basic stuff, cost per conversion, lifetime value of a customer, your cost of goods, those metrics they are going to separate you from the pack because of that very reason, no one else wants to think about those things. Steve Larsen: It's true, then you have to think about Excel sheets and that's hard and you have to think about ... It's kind of a big locked gate, a little bit to that industry a little bit. Bryan Bowman: Exactly, exactly. Listen, I love barriers to entry, it's why I became an actuary. I became an actuary, for those of you who don't know what it is, don't worry. If you have kids or brothers or sisters who are really good at math, tell them to go be an actuary if they are not going to become professional sellers online like internet marketer or sellers. Basically, having that background in stats and math, it helped me with my advertising on Amazon, ultimately, it now helped me with my Facebook advertising and in AdWords like understanding those numbers. I can't stress enough how important it is. If you're not that person, find somebody who's really good with numbers. Steve Larsen: How would I find someone like that? I mean, because that is a barrier, you know what I mean? That's a personal barrier to entry. How would I find some dude that actually go out and do that kind of thing? Bryan Bowman: I mean, we could have a whole conversation about this. I use VAs so what I do is I will set up the basic spreadsheet and then I have them, I train them on how to download reports, upload the reports and send me a summary so that I just get like an executive summary about every week. Steve Larsen: Okay. Bryan Bowman: They do the work that probably most of us, I mean, I don't really like, I kind of like being in spreadsheets but not all day. Steve Larsen: Right. Bryan Bowman: What they're good at like because I have SOPs in place they can download the reports that are already, this certain reports that are already set, they can upload them, they can refresh the workbooks and basically, just send me the summary that's already built in to the workbook and then I just can have a look at it, overview it and then make any changes that need to be made. There are plenty of people Upwork, you can go to, what is it now? Is it Elance? Is that what it's called now? Steve Larsen: Freelancer. Bryan Bowman: I mean, like I said I train my VAs one on one so I use onlinejobs.ph. Steve Larsen: Cool. Bryan Bowman: Even if you want to hire someone domestically like in the U.S. look at community colleges like see if there's some math students or someone who's in a business program, someone who's technical that's looking to pick up a few extra hours. I think it's important to have that person whether it's you or not in the business though because it's huge. Steve Larsen: I believe there are eCom people that I've talked to or some of these, that is the thing. It seems like there's a big difference between them who's successful and the others who aren't. Just merely knowing the numbers and tracking the numbers in each campaign. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, because then it just turns into a simple yes or no like, "Is this profitable?" Yes or no. "Should I double down on this?" I mean, especially if you need to make a quick turn around on your ad spend, I mean, if you have to put a $100 in today and you need to make it back in 48 hours because capital is limited and you can't wait 30 days to see your return, it is critical that you know your numbers and you know what your yes and your no is and when you need to double down and when you just stop your ads. Going back, I think because I leverage that, we had probably quicker success probably the most. I loved Amazon, it was awesome like we're doing really well really quickly but then my daddy used to always say, "No matter how thin the pancake there's always two sides." That couldn't be any more true with Amazon, you can have this great thing going but then we got hit with, man, I don't even want to get into the whole story because it brings up too much pain but I do remember waking up, it was a Tuesday morning, I checked my seller app and I'm like, "Wait a second, this is already a slow morning. I don't know about this." I went back to the desktop, checked and sure enough like our number one product had been blocked then our seller account was shut down. It took forever to get that back. It was just one thing after another and through all that pain, I really figured out, it became very apparent like I cannot depend on Amazon. I have to build my own sandbox. Amazon can be a spoke in the wheel but it cannot be the entire wheel. That's when I really double down on the funnels, honestly that's when I was looking for the best way to build funnels, how do I start because I had used them before but never really to the extent that I'm using them now. I just wanted to build that off Amazon strategy because I already had the brands in place. I was like, "All right, I need to build my sandbox." That's how I started using ClickFunnels and I guess it was at the time it felt like a curse but ended up being the biggest blessing for us because now we've been able to really diversify our sales and really develop a repeatable strategy. It's good, it's all good, man. I'm excited. I think it's interesting how this happens where some of our most painful times end up being the things that give us the most power and give us the most ability to make a difference and make a change. Steve Larsen: You said something that I thought was really interesting. I mean, you're basically describing the equivalent of the Amazon slap, the Google slap. Bryan Bowman: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Steve Larsen: There's a lot of people who I've spoken as well, they say like, "Just leave it on Amazon. All you need is Amazon." I mean, you just said the exact opposite that you realized that you can't do that. What advantage did you gain by not just staying on Amazon, by actually going off of it? Bryan Bowman: Absolutely, there are a lot of advantages but there's one that's the one that you should, all your listeners and you and everyone should write down, it's two x versus eleven x. That's all you need to know. Your Amazon business, if you have a purely Amazon based business where all your revenue is coming from Amazon, you can expect on the market when you go to sell that business, about a two x return on earnings. Steve Larsen: Really? Bryan Bowman: Yeah. If you have a business off Amazon, Shopify, big commerce ClickFunnels which by the way those listening, you can run an entire eCommerce business on ClickFunnels. It's one of the biggest misconceptions that I find. Steve Larsen: It's so true, thank you for saying that. Bryan Bowman: People, they think for some reason I don't know why and this is one of the things that I make sure I always educate people on in my community inside of eCom Underground is like it's a shopping cart. You can put everything in there. You can run an entire eCommerce store there. I compare it to basically a Costco versus a personal shopper. A Costco is like your Shopify store where you're walking around, you have a big shopping cart and you can throw a bunch of stuff from the rafters into your shopping cart and check out. That's a Costco. Whereas a funnel or ClickFunnels is it's like a personal shopper. When you walk in, you go to Neiman Marcus and they're curating goods just for you and the goods that you're going to see are different than the ones that I'm going to see because we have a different build, we have a different taste, we have different age. You're a man, if I'm a woman, you're going to see different things. That's the experience of a funnel so that's why they convert so much better. The two x is of your Amazon, eleven x, if you build that business on Shopify, if you build that business on ClickFunnels, BigCommerce, whatever, you can expect a ten to eleven x return on earnings when you go to sell that business. The market reflects the risk inherent in having a purely Amazon business. Steve Larsen: That's amazing, that's amazing. I never thought about that. I've got a buddy who just sold for a ton of money in the eCom space and I was like, "Man, that's remarkable at how big that thing scaled, how fast." It was exactly what you said, he wasn't just staying on Amazon itself. I've heard from a lot of people, "Make sure you are in Amazon," but just like you're saying, you can't leave the whole cake on Amazon itself. Bryan Bowman: Absolutely. The best analogy guys is imagine you've been doing marathon. Have you been in marathon, Steve? Steve Larsen: I've been in a sprint triathlon. Bryan Bowman: All right, do you know when a marathon when you have all the people on the side and they've got the waters and like the herd. It's like this massive, all these people are running, right? They are just like, people are holding out cups and they are just grabbing cups and water splashing everywhere. Steve Larsen: Yeah. Bryan Bowman: That's what I compare Amazon to. We're the ones with our cups and we're charging for them and there's this like all these people coming and they're grabbing our cups and they're drinking them. It's like yes, I get rid of all my cups but they're gone, they are just running. You don't even know who they were. Whoever was running the marathon, they've got the entry numbers, the emails, the phone numbers, they know everything but you're basically just hanging out on the side lines with your cup of water. That's kind of what Amazon is like and you're just waiting for the next herd of traffic that's going to buy your stuff. That's cool. Steve Larsen: It's a really good analogy. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, that's what it feels like. Then you're just waiting, you're like, "All right, hopefully the next marathon comes." The marathon by the way is called Q4. As opposed to building a business, and this is what I always tell people, what is your business? When you really think about it, it's not your inventory, it's not your sales or your profit or revenue, it's your customers, your customer list. That's why the market reflects that big difference in building that on Amazon versus off Amazon business so it's critical to have that ability to have that relationship with your customers. That's probably above anything, that is the biggest reason why you'd want to build something off of that marathon platform. Steve Larsen: Sure, and what's funny too is like anyway, I love the analogy that the customer is the business. Amazon takes all that, it take all that data. You can't really get that data, can you? You're just selling stuff. Bryan Bowman: Exactly. I mean, and they understand it. They understand the power in the customer that's why they keep it and in fact, they have a lot of things in place to keep you from driving traffic off the platform. They make their terms of service very open-ended so that they can really suspend you for any reason. It's kind of one of the dirty secrets like no one really knows that. It's interesting, when you first start selling on Amazon it's like it's so exciting because a lot of people like me were just like, "Hey, I need to build a business, an income that replaces my day job." Every advanced Amazon seller you talk to will tell you the same thing. It's always this worry in the back of their mind. Again, fortunately, this is a mindset thing is to really, really see the blessing in the pain sometimes. Fortunately, I went through some of these pain early on which forced me to have to become something else and have to learn something else which is again turned into the biggest blessing for us. Steve Larsen: I mean, someone once told me that for every dollar spent online, Amazon is so big that a quarter of that dollar is going to Amazon right now. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, that's crazy. One out of four dollars spent online is spent through Amazon or one of their companies. Steve Larsen: That is huge, absolutely massive. Bryan Bowman: If you really think about that. Steve Larsen: I know, you think about how much money that really is it's like oh my gosh, that's amazing but you're saying, obviously put some stuff on there just to be present but then keep the bulk of the business offline. How are you actually building it offline? I mean, not offline but off of Amazon. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, exactly. This takes me to my next point which I touched on earlier. Stephen, this is all the stuff I really I just I talk about all the time inside of eCom Underground because I just really want to open people's eyes to something else, like a different opportunity, different possibility. The first thing you have to do, it's nice that someone says, "Great, build off Amazon, you can do better," but how, right? The first thing is it's a mindset shift in how you're going to build your business. If you're looking to just sell general store type stuff or you just want to sell one off products that are hot sellers, maybe Amazon is a good fit or maybe some free plus shipping funnel, that's fine but long-term, we need to really build an asset. The way I like to think of it is shifting from commodity to community. This is something I repeat over and over and over again because as long as you're selling a widget and all widgets are the same, and the person who comes to your store sees it as another widget, you're competing on price. That's all you're competing on. Steve Larsen: Which is awful. Bryan Bowman: It's awful. It's awful. The life cycle of your product is shorter and it's not going to last as long before someone's going to undercut you. I mean, there's plenty of people that are doing this, they're literally making pennies on the dollar like a profit and they're just trying to do the volume play. I hope you consider this. Imagine you've built up a community instead, people who've rallied behind an interest or a common shared like passion or even an expert or a personality so it take for example, I was talking to my sister about this. One product that you would never want to sell right now by the way, if you're going to go on Amazon, it's completely saturated, measuring cups, kitchen utensil like measuring cups, you would never sell that. Maybe if you did, I don't know, maybe you could, I wouldn't. Margins aren't big enough and it's too competitive. It would make no sense. Then I was talking to my sister, she loves to cook. She's passionate about cooking and she follows this, oh what's her name? Cupcake Jemma, okay. She follows her and she loves Cupcake Jemma and she loves the content Cupcake Jenna puts out and follows all her videos and all these stuff. I asked her, I said, "If Cupcake Jemma came out with measuring cups that were twice the price of whatever you could find on Amazon, and the lowest price that you could find out there, would you buy the ones from Cupcake Jenna or would you price shop so you can get cheaper ones?" She's like, "No, I'll just buy hers." Why? "Because I know that's what she uses or I know it's her. It's her." She's getting to experience something of that community, of that interest, of that passion, right? When we start building communities and it doesn't necessarily have to have an expert at the front end. I like if it does because there's an attractive character that we can follow but if we can just build a community first, I learned this from Todd Brown, then the sale becomes superfluous because the messaging and the marketing is so good and people are craving to be a part of something. I don't know how else to explain it. If you start with the community then you can start introducing the physical products because people will actually start asking you for it. When we start building our communities and there's a lot of different ways you can build them. You can use Facebook pages, Facebook groups. There's a lot of different ways you can do it but the point is people will start asking you. You could do it on YouTube, they'll start looking at the videos and they'll be like, "What's that shirt you're wearing? What's that thing you're using?" They already want to know. Before we ever start pitching any physical products, people will start asking us for them like, "Oh, it would be cool if," let's say you're in the running niche, "If you could come up with a patch," like I love running, running addict, or whatever it is, they'll start asking you first which is awesome. That's like a very good thing. Steve Larsen: Crazy. Bryan Bowman: You start with the physical product but this is where I'm going to challenge you, probably not you but your listeners is to go a step further. Who says we only have to sell physical products? Let's get into the information space also. We can sell training. There's a lot of information that we can still be a part of and even if we're not selling it, we can form affiliate agreements with people where we can present relevant products and this is how we build our funnels relevant products that are information based because we need those higher margins to sustain the business. One of the dirty secrets about eCommerce is you only really get paid when your business is flat. When the business is growing, growing, growing, you're operating in let's say 30% margins, you're going to pay for the inventory because there's cost of goods, you're going to pay for the inventory shipping fulfillment, all that stuff. If you made a 100,000 this month, you want to make 200,000 next month. Steve Larsen: Don't grow. Bryan Bowman: You got to roll that money back in so you can pay for all that inventory and everything else associated with it. That's how you end up making five million dollars a year in eCommerce and you'll pay yourself 200 grand because you can't pay yourself very much but as soon as the business goes flat and you stop growing, then there's cash you can pull out. One of the things is if you can start adding information, and the third piece if you can add software which is awesome because you can have this trifecta inside of your community, now you can really start getting cash into the coffers and really start getting more cash flow coming in and let the eCommerce side build on its own and double down on that. Steve Larsen: That's awesome. I think it's really cool. I run the Two Comma Club Coaching Program right now and it's been a lot of fun but that's been one of the big questions, so I'm going to read the book Experts Secrets from Russell Brunson. Say like, "Hey, this is just for webinars." You're like, "No, no, no." Bryan Bowman: No way. Steve Larsen: No, it's not. If you look at it carefully, he's just using a webinar as an example of how to actually use the Expert Secret process but if you're to take an eCom product and combine it with info or combine it with something else or software or whatever it is, that's one of the easiest ways to create a blue ocean for yourself because no one else is thinking about that combination or taking information and then ... Actually with the Experts Secrets funnel itself, the actual book funnel, we do this all the time. We will combine just like you're saying, "Hey, here's this cool eCom thing, this cool products that's physical," but then really the revenue accelerators are all info products in the backend as the upsells. Anyway, just 100% I'm screaming over here that what you're saying I totally attest to. We've seen it so many times if you can combine them together whatever, that is huge, huge power, massive power for revenue. Bryan Bowman: The biggest thing and we could talk about this, I mean, I don't know if you like to get into it kind of the actual strategy we use with traffic and then getting that traffic to convert but the biggest thing is building that connection, the community. You have to have this... One thing I do and I run four different brands and in every single brand I have an org chart. Those of you who are listening, if you have not read E-Myth Revisited like, don't pause the podcast, finish the episode and then go to Amazon or wherever and go buy yourself that book. Steve Larsen: Yeah, great book. Bryan Bowman: You should have an org chart, think of your business as I don't care if you're a solo operation and I do this for all my businesses even if it's just me, I have no staff, no VA, no one at all, it's just me, and I am solo operation in that brand. Build an org chart as if you are going to build a McDonald's and you're going to franchise this business. You want it to be a well-oiled machine that the 5,000 version of your business will be just as profitable as the first that you founded. Build that org chart and make sure that in that org chart there's somebody who's in charge of relationship management like really managing relationships with your customers because at the end of the day ... Have a statement. Another thing I do is there's a contract for each one of those roles and every single one of those positions has to fulfill the promise to serve and to reinforce the values of the community more than selling like ever. It has nothing to do with selling. That's why I always say, "It's all enveloped in community." Make sure that you are reinforcing the values of the community and why they are there because that is your asset. Long-term it's that community because they're going to tell you what they want and they're going to start asking for it... They are going to start asking for that physical product that they're going to rest on their desk, that info product that they're going to, after they're done using your physical product they are going to log on and use your info product and then the software, if there's a need for it. Not every niche has it. It's funny, Russell, I'm a part of inner circle, it's just amazing to be coached and mentored by Russell. He talked a lot about how satisfying the itch in the funnel, like there's initial itch and then once that itch is scratched, there's another. I started using the phrase that different niches have different itches and it's like some niches have more itches than others, right? Some can't support a software let's say but you'd be surprised, if you think creatively, a lot of different interest can but anyway I'm geeking out a little bit. The big thing is remember why you're doing it, it's the community, it's not the product. If you're thinking product, product, product, you're selling a commodity. I don't care what you're selling, the info product, the physical product, whatever. If you're thinking about the product, it's just a commodity and someone else is going to beat your own price eventually. Steve Larsen: Oh man, I totally love that. The power of the community too is so huge because I mean, just like you said, they will start to tell you what is it that they want which takes a lot of the guesswork out for you. Basically, it's this huge platform for you to start crushing false beliefs and it's a little group for you to launch when you actually do create the products that they're asking you for. I don't know, it solves so many problems for you to have the community, have this following, a group of people it's like I'm totally in love with what you're doing. Bryan Bowman: Exactly. Steve Larsen: I love that you brought that up, it's part of the eCom selling because most people don't think of that for eCom. Most people since it's a physical product, I mean, it doesn't take that much copy usually to sell something physical. You don't really see massive sales letters on Amazon pages. The value is on the tangible thing I'm going to get to hold and touch. I'm being future paced alone. Usually, you can charge a little bit more easier than info products out of the gate because I'm going to get to hold it and it's real. Bryan Bowman: The only eCommerce people that are thinking about this are those that are in eCom Underground. Steve Larsen: Yeah, no, I totally believe that. Bryan Bowman: No, honestly. I know sometimes I sound like a broken record to the community. I'm always talking about this. It's so important like this is the one piece is this community piece but anyway, I love it. It's fun stuff, man. Steve Larsen: That's awesome. As far as how to sell an eCom product, you said the funnel, don't just be on Amazon, build a community, combine it with info product or software, how do you find the product? It's like we have these models in our head and we understand part of the marketing pieces like, "Oh, yeah, I can totally do that. I can do that." What? Do I do it too? What's the actual ... Find those things. Bryan Bowman: Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, I'm going to assume. It's so funny because I always talk about there's principles, there's strategies and there's tactics and the tactics what usually ends up happening is people don't usually share the tactics or talk about the tactics. They'll talk about the principles which is like find your Y, find the core interest, the strategy is how you're going to implement high level but then the tactics really people don't talk about much. We're covering all these which is actually pretty cool. The principles guys is what is the interest and I would always have you start there. I would have you not start at the product... I think that's an old mindset and if you start at the product, I think it's not that it can't be done and I'll share a way where you can do it that way but I would highly encourage you to start all the way at the beginning at the principle like what is it that you're trying to build, what is it that you're trying to create, who are the people you're trying to gather or congregate and the products will emerge out of that, I guarantee you. They do every single time. That's literally how we build brands. Now, we start first with the interest. We start first with the passion and the products will emerge. If you want to go straight to product, we're going to come full circle and go back to Amazon. Amazon has more data than you could ever go out and pay for with software or anything else. There's some really cool stuff you can do. If you go into, I mean, I'll just tip right here, guys, this is how we do product research. Even if we're in a niche already and we want to look for extra products, and this is assuming you don't have a list, if you already have a list then do an ask campaign. Ask your people like what do you want basically. Steve Larsen: Yes, I love you're bringing that up. Okay, nevermind. Bryan Bowman: Let's say we're starting with nothing. What's that? Steve Larsen: I said I'm geeking out with you. Bryan Bowman: Let's say we're starting with nothing. Amazon has these really cool things called Amazon best sellers. They are the hot list, the most wished for list. When you go into Amazon and they'll tell you what are people wishing for, what are they putting on their wishlist like what are things that they want, what are the things that are the hottest sellers overall in Amazon or by individual category. If you want to sell stuff in the sports and outdoor niche, Amazon will tell you these are the hot top hundred selling items in the sports and outdoor niche. It just gives you the data. That by far is the best place to start, to start brainstorming ideas. There's apps you can buy that are plug ins, none of them are really I mean, they're not super accurate in the sense that like this one says this sells 10,000 and this one sells 20,000. It's just a gauge to help you understand maybe approximate sales so you understand what's a hot selling product and where maybe there's some opportunity. Amazon is a place to start. If you want to look for purely product research, I would encourage all your listeners to start checking out some of those lists in Amazon. Again, guys, I would highly encourage you if you want to build a long-term asset, start with the principle of the actual interest. Steve Larsen: Could you give an example of that? Bryan Bowman: What's that? Steve Larsen: Could you give an example of that? Just for someone listening that goes, "What do you mean by principle?" Bryan Bowman: Yeah, if we decide like we want to get, okay, I'm just looking right here, I've got my cup of coffee right here. We'll go with coffee. If I'm like, "All right, I want to start selling eCommerce." Let's say I'm starting from day one, "Man, I really want to start selling some physical products." Then maybe you're going to go into Amazon and you're going to start looking for hot selling products in the coffee niche. There's a lot of them. I mean, coffee niche is such a good niche. I'll explain why it is in a second. There's tons of amazing products you can sell and probably can make some money on. You can get source pretty easily. You can find a manufacturer in China or maybe even domestically, but we tend to go overseas and get it sent, get your samples and start producing. That's one approach. You go to Amazon, you're going to be able to find some hot selling products but what I'm going to encourage your listeners to do and I hope you consider is let's go back before we even consider do I want to sell the coffee mug, do I want to sell the grinder, do I want to sell the pour over top, or whatever. Let's go back and let's talk about the niche, the interest coffee aficionados, coffee lovers, people who really like why do they love coffee so much and start building that community. Start thinking in terms of even if you're not going to build a community page or anything like that but start thinking about the interest, the principles. Why do they love coffee? What does it mean to them? Because what's that going to influence it's like top down, it's going to influence everything else. It's going to influence all the way down to your Facebook ads. If you're just like, the worst thing you can do if you're going to run a Facebook ad, we can talk about this is say, "Get my coffee," let's just say coffee mug, coffee mug 50% off today only like I guarantee you no one is going to buy that. No one is going to click on that and buy it because all you're trying to do is scream louder than everybody else, every other advertiser. If you can pull your customer out of the crowd. I always use a Waldo example like where's Waldo where there's like all the people and then Waldo is in there and if like a magnet, if I can pull Waldo out of that sea of people then I don't need to yell anymore. I can just have a conversation. If I start with the principle which is why do people love coffee so much, that's going to affect my messaging, right? That's going to affect how I connect and for some people, they choose a certain coffee because they want it to be free from toxins, and they want it to be organic and they want it to be the cleanest cup of coffee. For others, it's like a super power where it's productive, it's the first thing they have that inspires them. No caffeine, no creativity then that's how I'm going to connect with them. At the end, I'm still selling the same product, the pour over top thing but it's because I took the time to get my principles right, then the strategy I used for my Facebook ad was influenced and then tactically how I implemented it in my funnel was influenced as well. I don't know if that make sense... Steve Larsen: No, it totally does. Rather than selling, I mean you're basically selling the benefit rather than the feature which is awesome. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, I mean there, you put it, see you're so much smarter than me, Steve. Steve Larsen: Whatever. Bryan Bowman: You put it so much more elegantly. Steve Larsen: I stole that from so many marketers. That's cool though, okay. Meaning, I've always thought of that in terms of how to sell it but you're taking that principle like way farther back into the actual product selection phase which is very interesting. Bryan Bowman: You know why though, man? This is my prediction, and not that this is ... I'm no Nostradamus so marketing, I know the guy who is though, but what's really going to start separating people is like being genuine, man and you can't fake it. That's the thing. I actually, I try to get into niches. I don't sell me-too products. I try to get in niches that I'm going to take a little bit of time to really understand the niche. Typically, it's going to be something I'm interested in but even if I'm not and I see a great opportunity in the market, I'm going to get to know these people. I really, really, really want to be genuine and serve and create a sense of community. It just makes everything so much easier. I can't emphasize it enough because you're going to be able to think their thoughts. You're going to be able to get into their head. It makes product selection and copy and offers and everything so much easier. Steve Larsen: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely with that kind of backdrop. You go in there and you start looking at Amazon best sellers and you're going to figure out how you can sell the result rather than the thing. How do you start testing? What is it that you're doing to go through you know, "Is this product actually good? Should I build a whole culture and community around this?" You know what I mean? What's the next step after that? Bryan Bowman: I mean, the first thing I mean I'll be honest, it's been tested enough where our method once I check some boxes in terms of knowing that there's enough interest in the niche, doing a little bit of preliminary product research, seeing that there's some products that people buy, again, going to Amazon, seeing what kind of stuff they buy, researching the niche a little bit, seeing the competitiveness of it. I'll double down and just start building up our communities but I think initially whenever you're going to sell any physical products, always use small test orders. More and more, because there's been so many more of these private label sellers or people starting their own brands and going to manufacturers in China. If you're using Alibaba or AliExpress or whatever you're using or global sources, there's just a lot of different ways you can go to get product more and more these manufacturers are accepting lower MOQs or lower order quantity. When I started, if you're not ordering a thousand units like good luck because you're going to pay, either you're not going to find any manufacturer to sell you anything or you're going to pay a lot of money. Now, it's not uncommon. I mean, if you just push back a little bit or just make a second or third request, it's not uncommon to be able to get 100 or 200 units, 300 units max, I guess not max but max for a minimum order like a small order and you start with something small. I mean, always order samples. I don't want to get too much into sourcing but always check a few samples on physical products because the picture they show you is never the same as what they actually send you. I mean, what they send you is never the same as the order so it's the bigger order. Order one, the 300 units and start selling those. You could put them, I like putting them on Amazon but you can create some simple funnels and see if the inventory moves. If you're able to actually get the product to sell, if it does, then you know you're ready to double down and order a bigger quantity. Anyway, I don't want to get too much into the inspection stuff and all that. Steve Larsen: Sure. Think about more the ecomunderground.com for sure. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, this is definitely all we talk about is all the nitty-gritty, the details, but I think the main take away is always start small and scale up because I've made that mistake. The first product that we ever launched, I mean, I didn't have a lot of disposable income and we put ten grand into it. I learned the hard way because I sold $500 worth of product. Steve Larsen: This is going to sound like crazy. Bryan Bowman: In fact, I still think I have some of those boxes of products sitting around in a storage unit somewhere. The biggest thing I can tell you like anything else is micro budgets, micro orders essentially and just scale up and test it first. Fortunately, ClickFunnels has made it super easy to be able to test product like using funnel. Steve Larsen: I was going to say, you go get the product, you find it on Amazon. First of all, what people are wanting, the interest, the principles. You go and you source the product to get small micro shipments of it and then you're testing the sale on Amazon plus like funnel, is that how you're doing it? Bryan Bowman: Yeah, I mean I would pick one or the other honestly guys because I definitely don't want to divert. I'm a big believer like you focus your attention on one platform so the reason I like to test on Amazon, the only reason I like to is it's just quick. It's very quick to verify but I think that you also, if you're not really interested in getting into the whole Amazon world which you don't have to, the newest brand we're launching we're not even going to sell on Amazon. It's just not an interest of ours... We're doing it surely off of the marketplaces. When I say Amazon, I mean Walmart, Jet, Newegg, all of the marketplaces. You can build out simple funnels just to test to see if people are ordering and build out Facebook ads the way that we've talked about. Maybe we didn't talk about so much but the main thing with the Facebook ad is, actually this is really good, I really want to share this. Steve Larsen: Yeah, let's hear. Bryan Bowman: When you're building out your Facebook ads, there are so many ways to drive traffic, guys. I know people who are purely on Pinterest, that's how they get all their traffic. I know people who are purely on AdWords, that's how they get all their traffic. We use a combination of AdWords and Facebook. We're starting to branch out into Pinterest for one of our brands that's more in the mommy niche. Facebook is still I believe the most powerful platform but because of the increased competition, you've just have to step your game up and the biggest mistake I see people make, I kind of talked about it already with especially in eCommerce, with the streaming louder than your competition with bigger discounts and bolder funds, red borders or whatever is that streaming louder doesn't work. You have to get connection. It's really interesting because if you're selling a high ticket coaching program, let's say you're selling a $10,000 high ticket coaching program, you would never get on a Facebook ad and be like have a video or have an image that says, "Get my high ticket coaching for 50% off, it was 20,000, now 10 and I'm an amazing coach. You should totally come work with me, you will get amazing results." No one would ever start their campaign that way. It's like a coaching program, right? Steve Larsen: If they do, it's really annoying. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, if they do, it's really annoying and if you see those ads, just make them a spam or just report them because they don't work. Yet that's what most eCommerce sellers do, right? We're like, "Buy now. Buy now. Buy now. Buy now. Buy now, 90% off, 95% off, I'll give you $5 if you buy it." It's like let's just push the offer. What would you do if you're a high ticket coach? What would your ad look like if you're trying to sell a $10,000 coaching program, Steve? Your initial ad to cold traffic, what would you ... Steve Larsen: If I was selling a high ticket coaching program from cold traffic, actually I wouldn't. I would sell to my own community. The first thing I would do is I would be out showing people benefits of using a funnel and first, defining the people who probably know what that vernacular is. Then, ascending then up slowly just like you and I were talking about before because I wouldn't walk up on the street and ask someone for ten grand. To me, that's what cold traffic is. I'm not that good at cold traffic and it's for a reason. I just feel like it's the harder method than going to warm traffic and hot so I don't do cold that much. Bryan Bowman: Like you said, first thing you do is you'd start serving and you just start probably connecting with them. It's a little bit easier with low ticket. It probably wasn't the best analogy because yeah, absolutely, good luck selling $10,000 program to cold traffic but let's say it's a $30 offer. Let's say it's a $10 offer, I don't care what it is. There is an independence and an interdependence between your ads and your landing page. There's an independence because you're not trying to sell with the ad. All you're trying to do is get people to click to find out more. It's like a headline, the headline has one purpose, right? To get people to read the next line. Steve Larsen: Right. Bryan Bowman: The headline is not there to sell them necessarily but your ad is definitely not there to sell them, it's to get them to just click to get to the landing page, however, there's an interdependence between the ad and the landing page because that pre-frames them and sets the stage for whether or not they're going to accept your message on that landing page. Not all clicks are created equally. When I understood this, this was like the biggest breakthrough for me and my ads was there's this independence but this interdependence and when in my ad I just want them to click so that's where I'm going to try to build that connection, that's where I use a lot of story, I use a lot of powerful imagery. Who is it? Oren Klaff in Pitch Anything, he talks about the three different parts of the brain. Steve Larsen: It's such a good book. Bryan Bowman: It's awesome. I could just ramble off books right now, they're so good. Steve Larsen: Me too, so good though. Bryan Bowman: Basically, the part of the brain that's responsible for making decisions is actually has nothing to do with the logical like fact-based like what percentage off am I getting, it's the emotional part of the brain. It's the part of the brain that's responsible for processing emotions. We want to connect and we want to feel what they're feeling and let them know that our product, we're not trying to create emotions. This is Eugene Schwartz, Breakthrough Advertising, the job of your advertisement is not to create the emotion, it's to take their existing hopes, dreams, desires and put them onto your product and project them onto your product. We do that by connecting with the ad, we need to have more of a connection. It's a little bit hard. I know this all sounds very theoretical but- Steve Larsen: It's so true, though. Bryan Bowman: It's not that difficult if you actually care and you actually take the time to think about what pains, what fears, what hopes, what dreams your prospect has. The only job of the ad and it's not overly like sentimental or anything, we're not trying to be corny either. It's just enough to make people stop and go, "Okay, maybe I am interested in this pour over coffee top thing, maybe this really will make special cup of coffee, maybe it will make something that is worth tasting. Let me go ahead and click and find out." Steve Larsen: Right, it's powerful because like you said, you're not trying to create desire inside of a person or any kind of emotion or whatever. If they already have it, the only job I feel like of the sale and marketing is to just plug into exactly what you just said. I forgot it's Eugene Schwartz that said that. That's cool, that's really cool. With the ad, you're going in, you're saying, independence and interdependence in the ad but then also the way they flow together. I'm not trying to sell on the ad, I'm just trying to tap into current emotion and then the next page that has one role, the next page one role, I love that. Everything on every single piece of creative. Bryan Bowman: Exactly. Steve Larsen: Do you mind just real quick, I know we've been going for a little while here, but do you mind just real quick just sharing a little bit of one of the standard eCom funnel models is and maybe we'll wrap up with that? Bryan Bowman: Yeah, for sure. We still use free plus shipping a lot. I still love free plus shipping. Again, when people say, I see this all the time, you know free plus shipping, everyone is doing it, it doesn't work. Yeah, if you're leading with on your ad, get our widget for $7 or get it for free, get it for free, click here, click here, click here. Again, it's a commodity, people just don't respond as well to that ad. Last year they did, but they just don't respond as well anymore. I still like though a low ticket tripwire, whatever you want to call it, to get them in and qualify my buyer and qualify, qualify a subscriber and qualify a buyer at the same and obviously getting that credit card info on the front end allows us to do one click upsells. The biggest thing I would give for eCommerce folks and maybe you've heard this, maybe you haven't is multiple quantities, multiple quantities. I want you to test being a little over the top. In the sense like if you think nobody would ever want five- Steve Larsen: Coffeemakers. Bryan Bowman: Coffeemakers, exactly... You don't know how many people they have in their family, who they're going to gift these things to, you have to try it and you'd be surprised how often people will take the multiple quantity option. Again, ClickFunnels is why love it, it makes it super easy for me to not only add multiple quantities but with a few lines of custom code, a few easy lines, have some nice call outs, bold some things, really call out my best value to try to entice people to consider the higher quantities. On the upsell pages, I used to do more of the same thing, we're finding that doesn't convert as well so I am starting to switch to different complimentary products but again, in multiple quantities. Then, on my down sale we'll usually strip out the most popular item so let's say it's a supplement product. We lead with our free plus shipping or maybe our trial, then on the upsell with multiple quantities, on the upsell we might have a pack of different products that are likely to be purchased together like a bundle, stack or whatever of supplements. If they say no on the down sale, we would strip out the most popular product that we know people is our best seller or is a popular product of ours. We would strip it out of that stack. That's one example. Then just make sure you take advantage of those thank you pages. That's another common thing I see with funnels in general but definitely eCommerce funnels more than anything is no one is taking advantage like few people take advantage of that thank you page. That's a great place, again, learn from Amazon, frequently bought together, frequently viewed. Think of yourself as a massive ... Steve Larsen: This too. Bryan Bowman: What's that? Steve Larsen: Other customers bought this too. Bryan Bowman: Exactly... Customers who bought this bought this as well. Hack Amazon, I mean, if you're an eCommerce seller, hack Amazon but like look at every element on that page and see how you can incorporate some of that stuff. That's probably one of the best takeaways I can give is that thank you page, it's underutilized and start funnel stacking. Honestly, you'd be surprised how many times people will go through this free plus shipping offers when you start stacking them. Steve Larsen: It's so true. I don't know how many times I bought [Trayvon 00:56:41] gun oil thing, oh I have a few guns. Bryan Bowman: What's that? Steve Larsen: I said, it's so true, I don't know how many times I bought [Trayvon 00:56:47] gun oil thing. I only have a few guns but man, I bought so many of those things. It's so funny. That's hilarious... Man, I want to thank you for this. Just to recap everything, I always take a massive full page of notes every time I get to talk to a genius like you so I got it here again. You talked a lot about how not to choose eCom or info or just one thing, you actually can combine them and make even more powerful offer. I love the concept of how getting off of Amazon allows you to sell for 11 x potential on the backend. The dirty little secret is you get paid if it's flat. I love that. It's hilarious, man. Then, massive focus on community, otherwise you're just a commodity. You can still sell the commodity but there's no longevity in just selling commodity. You got to be able to sell to community too and get people into there. I love that. Itches are in the niches, love that too. Then a big focus on principles, what are the interest, what is it they're actually going after, actually fulfilling that and tapping into creative or tapping into the desires that they already have. I love the concept of independence and interdependence with the ads too and pre-frame bridges and all that before the funnel hits and then going to the funnel. Man, you dumped a ton of stuff on here. This is amazing. This is like just a little flavor of what you actually offer in eCom Underground, that's so cool. I really appreciate it. Bryan Bowman: I was excited to come on, man, when you invited me. I was very excited. We've become really great friends man and I appreciate you, I appreciate what you're doing. Anything I can do to help serve your audience and hopefully give back some value that they can implement, some strategy but also some very tactical things that if they're running funnels right now, hopefully they can go tweak and start testing. Steve Larsen: I appreciate that. You guys noticed, those of you guys that are listening now, how much did he actually just spend on the funnel itself like the pages, not that much time. I think it's a big place that people fumble up and they say, "I've got to spend all this time," now, the funnel matters but so much goes in to actually finding the product. Finding the needs, fulfilling and actually building the business around the funnel so it can be self-sustained, I love that. Anyway, thanks so much for all you shared and I really, really appreciate it. Hey, where can people go to I think you've mentioned the trial they can get? Bryan Bowman: Yeah, I want to do something special for your audience just to have them experience a little bit of eCom Underground and be able to connect with them a little bit more. I recently created a group. We have a large private Facebook group like most ClickFunnels official, it's private but it's available for free to the public. That's an amazing group that's growing very, very quickly but we recently started a separate group which is our insiders group. Our eCom Underground Insiders... This is really special for me because it's a little smaller group and allows me to just serve them a little more closely and spend a little more time with them. What I do in that group is I have a weekly live Q&A where we literally breakout the whiteboard and your exact questions get answered and you come on and as a group we can answer them but what I do is anything that I can do to help to answer these questions I do. If you submit the questions in advance, if there's someone in my network who's a better expert than I am then I try to get them on that call and we try to make sure you get your questions answered every week on those live Q&As. What I also do is I have an expert, I call it expert no pitch interview where literally you know that moment, Stephen, it's one of my favorite things ever, it's like after you finished dinner, the plates have been cleared, dessert is gone, we're just sipping coffee or whatever it is and we're just sitting there talking. We're all just really calm and just sharing stories. That's the environment in the interviews, we're literally it's just an open dialog, somebody who's just amazing in what they do, most of the time eCommerce related, and we can just pick their brain and get our questions answered from an expert. We do that every month and we have a special private group just for us for the insider so it's a really special community. What I want to do is just extend a 30 day all access trial for all of your listeners, they can come check it out, see if it's for them and I'd love to have them obviously. It just reminds me of a sales page, like what's the catch, there's no catch. It's part of a huge national promotion. What I want honestly is like have your audience experience it, if they get value then of course I would love to have them stay and to be a part of the community long-term. What they can do is if you'd like to be a part of it and experience it, they can go to eCom, it's with one M, ecomunderground.com/steve S-T-E-V-E and yeah, we'd love to have you and have you try it out and see if it's a good fit for you. Steve Larsen: That's awesome, man. I appreciate it. Hey, if everything else is good, reach out to Bryan to say thank you so much. Bryan, I appreciate it, a personal friend and total eCom junkie and nerd. Bryan Bowman: Yeah, for sure. Steve Larsen: There's a lot of eCom people that listen to this podcast, so I know they're all going to really love it. Anyway, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate this. Bryan Bowman: Awesome. Thank you so much and yeah, it was awesome. Steve Larsen: All right, bye-bye. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnel for free? Go to salesfunnelbroker.com/freefunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.

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SFR 28: Interview - Nick Arapkiles Exposes Some Of His Youtube Traffic "Hacks"

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2017 34:00

Click above to listen in iTunes... I LOVE video…. And traffic. I have over 200 videos on Youtube now and here's what I wish I'd known… Steve: Hey, everyone. This is Steve Larsen. Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio. Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales funnels. Now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve: All right, you guys. Hey, I'm super excited. I'm super pumped for today because we get to talk about something that has always intrigued me. It's actually kind of the way it got started in internet when I first started working for Paul Mitchel and driving internet traffic with one of my buddies. Since then I really haven't done much so I'm excited to welcome on to the podcast an expert in this area, thank you so much, Nick Arapkiles. How are you doing? Nick: I'm great, man. Thanks for having me on. Steve: Hey, thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on. I was just looking through Facebook messages before you and I got on here and I didn't realize I think you had asked if we could push the time back and I'm such a morning person, thanks for getting up this early to do this. Nick: Hey, no problem at all, man. I'm happy to do it. Like you said I'm not much of a morning person, but when someone like you gives me an opportunity like this I'm happy to get on. Steve: It's nice that you did, I appreciate it. For everyone listening, this really is probably the first time, I mean, this is the first time that we'd really spoken like this. The guy that connected us is Ben Wilson obviously. Ben is the guy. He and I we're doing that things, Paul Mitchel and several other companies just think the world of him. He sent me a message and he goes, "Dude, I got this awesome guy. He's the man." I think I still have the message just to put it on the podcast or something. It's pretty funny. He's like, "This sweet guy, man, he's this genius and he said he wants to come." "Hey, sweet." I'm always looking for talent, for people because I get boring for everyone I'm sure. I'm excited to have some mix out. Nick: It's kind of a funny story. I met him at an event here in Colorado and then I actually ran into him at the Rockies, in the baseball game. Then he messaged me about you and here we are. Steve: Dude, that's great. What event was it? Nick: It was actually for a book publishing event ironically ... Steve: He told me he's going to that. Okay, cool. That's fantastic. It's funny this whole internet marketing world, it's actually a lot smaller than people think it is because people get in it, they'll get out of it, they'll get in it but the people that stick around I don't think there's ... Anyways, get around quick. What is exactly that you're doing then? You told me that you're awesome with YouTube which is awesome. Most people forget you can even advertise there I feel like but what is it that you're doing? Nick: Basically, I've been doing this stuff for a lot. Do you want me to just go on to my story a little bit? Steve: Okay, man. Let's hear it. Nick: Okay, cool. I've actually been online for about six years now and two and a half of those first six years were complete and utter struggle. It's usually the case with a lot of people's stories. I don't think I'm too much different... Steve: Anyone who says otherwise I feel like they are just lying or throwing a sales video. Nick: Yeah, I mean, it sucked at the time. Obviously it sucked at the time not having, you always expect when you get started you're thinking you're going to make money in your first day, first week, first month at least but it was tough man, it really was. I forfeited a lot of things going on. I was actually in college at the time... It was the summer before my last year of college so all my friends were going out partying and going to pool parties, different stuff like that. I was just dedicated to this thing. I essentially locked myself in my room that whole summer and I was dedicated to making it work and I didn't even make it work that entire summer and even years after that. It just led me on this path I think once you get into this like you're essentially infected with the entrepreneurial bug as I like to call it. You can't really go back from that. I mean, I kept on trying different things. I even went into the trading Forex and stuff like that but eventually came back into the marketing realm and that's where I am now like you're asking I've done a lot of YouTube stuff. That's the big thing is I really always focus on driving traffic because if you can drive traffic then you have a business. You really can do anything, it depends on what traffic you're using. Most the time I promote different funnels like business opportunities or just affiliate programs... I haven't really dove into much of my own stuff. I just leverage other systems that people put out and that's pretty much what I'm doing but it all stems from driving traffic and then calling people from YouTube into my world. I like to really call it my world more so than my list. I think a lot of people say my list or build a list. That's great, obviously you need to build a list but I think it helps me come from a better mentality than it's I'm building a list of people or a list. It's more so I'm building an audience of people, they are in my world now. Because I think a lot of people secure a list and they just think of numbers and what it really comes down to is that these are people that are interested and they want to connect with you and they want to learn more. You have to treat them as such and I think when you do that you get a lot better results. Steve: Interesting. That's interesting. A lot of people I know will talk about, they'll have you fill out something. Who are you trying to attract? What's their likes? What's their dislikes? What do they hate? Sometimes I feel like that gets pretty artificial after a while. You're just targeting people like yourself. I feel like it's the easiest way to go... Nick: Yeah, to be honest I didn't express this fully but basically what I do right now is I don't actually do too much advertising where I'm paying for the clicks and stuff like that. It's mostly just all organic. I've done a little bit of advertising here and there but the big thing is just putting content up. I know you're asking if I could drop some nuggets for YouTube and stuff like that but the biggest thing is just to continually put out content just like any other type of platform whether that's Facebook, Instagram, even Snapchat now. It's just continually putting out content because the more content you have out there, the more likely people are going to find you... I mean, there are some videos that I have that have seven views but there's also other videos that have 100,000 views. You never really know exactly which videos are going to hit. You might have an idea depending on the keywords and how optimized your videos are but the biggest thing that I stress and every day I learn more and more, I'm always learning is the fact that you never really know exactly until you start putting up content which videos are really going to stick and gain some traction until you upload them. Steve: That's interesting you say that. Back in college also I started really, really diving into this also, same thing. I sucked at it. There's a guy I listen to and he was saying, "You should always be publishing. Try and get a way to be in front of your people. Produce content." Just exactly what you're saying. I started doing that and making all these Periscope videos and I would put the recordings on YouTube. I can't tell you how cool that was. Stuff started happening when I did that. The exact reason you're saying. I had some videos that were terrible but then others were completely surprising to me. People started watching them and pushing them around. What the heck is this? My products started getting sold organically. I was like, "This is kind of cool," I totally agree with that but I have to ask though, you're putting YouTube videos out. Try to put as many up as you can. How do you rank a YouTube video? It's hard to... these words for spiders to go crawl and stuff like that like a blog post. What are some strategies you use to actually try and get them out there? Nick: It almost feels like it's changed throughout the years, I think the algorithms and everything. I'm not that geeky like that but I just noticed some trends here and there. As of late, I've noticed that a bigger channel with more subscribers and just a little bit more authority, maybe it's been on for a little bit of while or a little while, those are the videos that's pushing up towards the top of the search engines. You can pull back links. I know that probably gets a little bit more complex. I don't know if you're familiar with back linking. Steve: 100%, yeah definitely. Nick: Okay, I just didn't know if your audience would or not but that's basically you can go out there and get some other people to put your video in a bunch of different places. The idea behind that is that the search engines see your video all over the place and they are like, "This must be a video that is good. Let's start pushing it up towards the top of the search engine." Especially a couple of years ago that was huge and it definitely got me a lot of results but the thing again that I've noticed lately is that just having a big channel and having some decent subscribers and having people actually watch majority of your video is what's really pushing your videos up. I've had some videos where I just started making videos and they don't get much traction at all but then I have one of my bigger channels and I just put it up and I don't really optimize it at all, I don't really do anything to it and right away it's like one of the first videos on the search engine. Steve: I hear of Traffic Geyser. Nick: Yeah the name sounds familiar. Steve: These sites where you just submit your video and they'll just blast it across the internet so that you could get more views. I mean, totally spam-my stuff, you know what I mean? It's the dream for every entrepreneur or internet guys to just put your stuff everywhere. What strategies do you use for finding people to put your videos up? You know what I mean? Did you have to find related channels to yourself? Nick: Not necessarily. I use a website called Fiverr a lot of the times or at least I used to. I haven't been using it as much lately but it's a really cool website. You're obviously familiar with it but I'll explain it for your audience. Basically, it's just a website. It's called fiverr.com, F-I-V-E-R-R dot ‎com and basically it's a site that has a bunch of people doing a bunch of different gigs. They'll literally do anything for you for $5. I think there's a processing fee now for like 50 cents. Essentially people will do anything for you on the internet. I should be more specific with that. Steve: It's funny though because I've had people like, "Rap my name." I've had people, "Beat box stuff," they'll do anything for five bucks. Nick: Exactly, there's a lot of different stuff that you can do. Basically I just go on there and look for back links or maybe social signals and it's not to complicated. I mean, you just have to find someone with good rating, good track record and just test them out and that's the whole thing that I always tell people too is that you just have to test things out. You'll never really know what's working, what's not working until you go out there and actually apply it yourself... I think a lot of people are always asking me for the secret, asking me for different things that are just going to make it click and they're going to make hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's really never the case. You know this just as well as anybody is that you actually have to go out there and do the work, see what's working, see what's not working and then throw out the stuff that's not working and then just ramp up the stuff that is working... Steve: This is one of the reasons why I laugh so much when you brought up Fiverr because it started out as a great class. I'm sorry if anyone's listening that was in that class. It was like an SEO class in college and it started out great. We're learning all these cool strategies for SEO and things like that. Then it just got like the strategies were really old. I've been doing it long enough by that point that I just knew that what I was earning wasn't significant or anything. He's like, "Hey, what you're all going to go do is you got to go create a YouTube video and think about a topic a lot and the competition in the class to see whose video can get the most views." I was like, "I could totally game that." We went and we made this, you know that, "Do you even lift, bro?" Those videos that are out there right now, have you seen it though? Nick: I'm not sure. Steve: "Bro, do you even lift?" Nick: Okay, yeah. Steve: The next Star Wars is coming out and we said, "Do you even Jedi, bro?" We made all these funny videos of people. It was pretty cool but I totally went to Fiverr and I paid this dude $5 to send like 10,000 bot clicks. For no views at all to just this massive spike and we went and we gave the ending presentation stuff like that like we have over 10,000 clicks on this thing and everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, that's amazing." It's in the last few weeks and what's funny is that we ended up getting contacted right before the class ended by this ad agency. They were like, "Hey, we want to use your video to promote Star Wars stuff on." I was like, "Okay." None of them knew that this were like ... I'm sure that 50 of them were real clicks out of the ... Maybe. What's funny though is that obviously YouTube after a while can start to see if that's crap. The views on the bottom went from 0 to 10,000 to 12 and it stayed there. We're looking at the analytics for a while and then just totally drop. They took away all of them all the way back down to 3 views or something like that after the class was ended. Anyways, the only reason I bring that up is because A, it was a total failure and I knew what happened. I knew enough about that world that time but it was I mean, how do you go through Fiverr and figure out who's going to be sending you real clicks and not. You know what I mean or who's going to be pushing your video around the right way or not? Because most of it ... I like Fiverr for testing a lot of the lower level stuff but it sounds like you've got a cool way to do it that isn't that way. Nick: Yeah, that's actually a good point... I'm glad you brought that up because that's very important that you find good gigs because if you are sending a bunch of fake traffic to your YouTube videos it can get your video shut down and even your account shut down because YouTube will recognize that and they see that you're just throwing all these views on there and they are all fake. They don't like that. I've had the experience of getting a lot of my stuff shut down because of that in the early stages. Anyone listening, make sure that you're not sending crap gigs over to your videos because YouTube will shut that down real quick. In terms of finding good stuff, basically I just make sure that the vendor has a good track record. There's one specific guy that he's probably one of the bigger gigs. He's got so many different gigs on there. I'll just let you know his name is Crorkservice. Steve: Crorkservice, you know, I might actually seen him before. Nick: I'm sure you have. Honestly he's probably one of the best out there and he's got the best ratings. He's like the top of the top sellers... I mean, it's no hidden secret. You just have to go through his gigs and figure out what exactly it is that you want. If you are going to purchase views I really haven't done that in a long time. I know there are some people that do it and they do actually have success because again like I was saying before, if you can get high retention views where people are watching the majority of your video, that actually can really, really help you with ranking your video on YouTube in specifics. Just make sure that is a high retention view and again it has a good track record because that can definitely help with rankings on YouTube. Steve: Interesting, okay. What are you doing? I heard some people talk about we’ll give some formula or outline for what to make, what to put in the video to make sure that they’ll push pass minute seven or whatever it is. Do you have anything that you would recommend there? Nick: Yeah, for sure. There’s a couple of things. The first thing that you definitely need to know, basically how I get all my traffic for the most part is it’s all based on keywords. People come into the search engines and this is just like general in terms of search traffic. Basically people will come in, they’ll be searching for something, I mean you and I have done this just as much as anybody else is that they have a concern, they have an issue, they need help with something. They come into the search engines and they start typing it out whether that is how to lose weight, how to grow tomatoes. It doesn’t really matter, it just pertains to whatever your business is but they’ll start searching things in and then they’ll find your videos if you start uploading videos, you do it on a good channel, you start optimizing it. Your videos are going to start rising towards the top of the search engines. What you need to do when you’re making your videos is that you need to let your viewers know that they are at the right place. Let’s say for example that you did make a video about how to grow heirloom tomatoes for example. What you need to say in the beginning of the video, you need to let your viewer know that they’re in the right place at the right time. You say, “Hey, you probably landed on this video because you are looking, you started searching out how to grow heirloom tomatoes,” right then and there they know that they are at the right place. That's what starts it out and then if you can get technical and say, you need to say this, you need to say this, but I think it ultimately comes down to is that you need to let them know that they’re in the right place and then give them value. I know it sounds stupidly simple but I think there’s many people out there that just like they’re trying to heighten all this traffic, all this stuff through your website. People are smart, you can’t bullshit people... When you’re genuine, when you give value and you’re just a real down to earth person then that’s when people recognize that. People will connect with you just on that fact based alone, they might be coming searching for information they want to learn how to grow tomatoes or lose weight or whatever it is. A lot of times people just want to connect with somebody and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had that happen where people just, they’ll hit me up on Facebook and they’re like, “Yeah, I mean, your video is great and all that but you just seem like you’re a down to earth person, you seem like a good dude and that’s why I came out and connected with you.” Steve: Interesting... I have had it happen before also and I never realized that that was probably it. I’m trying to be authentic on camera, you know what I mean? I’m just being myself and I have people come back and say, “Hey, you’re the man. I have this feeling when I was talking to you I should reach out to you,” and I was like, “What kind of feeling? All right, thanks.” Interesting. Yeah, that’s cool you bring that up... There really is as simple as that just answer the question, let them know that they’re there and then connect with them. There’s a guy I was listening to and he was saying something like, “The first 20 seconds you have to do something crazy to keep their attention. The next 60 seconds then you got to teach a little nugget then the final two minutes do something that’s also a little crazy to make sure they come back next time.” I was like, “Man, that’s a lot. All right,” but that’s so much more simpler route to do that. What kind of timeline do you usually look at when you’re trying to rank a video? You know what I mean, like how long it usually take? Nick: Again, it’s kind of goes along the same thing I was talking about just before and there’ll be a lot of people that say, “You got to make two to four minutes.” I certainly agree to that to an extent because like I was saying before it’ll help you start ranking your videos a little bit more if people are watching more of your video. If you have a shorter video it’s more likely that people are just going to watch more of it. If you have an 11 minute video then obviously less people are just going to watch it just because everyone has shorter attention spans. It does depend on the video that you’re doing because specific keywords especially like I do a lot of reviews. I’ll be honest that’s where a lot of my traffic comes from, a lot of my buyer traffic. That's just kind of a nugget right there. If you can start doing some reviews like that’s going to be some of your best traffic out there. I’ve got review videos that are like 10, 11, 12 minutes long and people watch the majority of it because buyers, think about this, buyers will watch, they will watch everything and they’ll read everything because they're thinking about it from your perspective. If you’re going out there and let's just say for example you want to buy a new MacBook or yeah, let’s just go with that example. Are you going to go to the website and just like look at a couple of pictures and then buy? No, you’re probably going to be going, you’re going to watch the hour long keynote presentation, you’re going to watch the ten minute video that shows all the details and all the benefits and features on the MacBook. You’re going to be talking to people, you might even reach out to a support. Buyers they will do their research. To just tell you, “You have to have it four minutes long,” or, “You have to have it ten minutes long,” I can’t really tell you that exactly because if you just target keywords that are buyer keywords, people are going to be searching that stuff until they make that buyer decision. Does that all makes sense? Steve: Yeah, it does. That’s a great insight. It’s not like a two to four minutes, there's not a hard fast rule, it's just hey whatever is … Make sure first that you’re actually delivering value and answering the question and coming back to them. Nick: Yeah, and if you’re asking for a short answer, I would say keep it shorter if you can but if you need more time to explain everything that you need I think there’s nothing wrong with that. Steve: What kind of buyer keywords? I mean is there’s a trend in good buying keywords, you know what I mean that you’re saying? Like across mostly internet or things that will pull your videos apart because those keywords are more valuable or you know what I mean? Nick: I’ll just be honest, review videos are probably the best videos that you can possibly make. Steve: Really? Nick: Yeah, because the reason people are coming and looking for reviews is because they saw a video or they saw a product and they’re a buyer. They’re looking for more information on that, they want to get everything they can possibly know about that. Once they figured out, once they see your video, once something clicks and they make sure it’s the right product for them then they’re ready to buy right there. Does that makes sense? Steve: Interesting. Yeah, 100%. I was just thinking too I’ve got like, I don’t know, 150 videos on YouTube but 90 of them are unlisted or whatever so that I can put them inside of websites and things like that. Do you have a preference at all? Have you found that there’s any kind of, I don’t know. I don’t even know, favoritism given to people who stay on the YouTube website versus watching YouTube video embedded on a page? Nick: I haven’t really done too much embedding on different pages so I can’t really speak for that. One other thing I was going to touch is the fact that you can actually look at your analytics too and you can see which videos people are watching longer. You can see the average duration on how long your viewers are staying on your video... Steve: Yeah, I love the stat section in the back of YouTube, it’s nuts. Most people don't look at that by a part but it’s pretty fascinating. Nick: Yeah, it’s great stuff and I actually just like within the last few months I’ve really started looking at that stuff a lot more and it’s really helped me. We just go back to the whole thing about testing seeing what works and then start doing more of what works. That what I was doing is I was really taking a look at the analytics, see what the videos that people are staying on for a long time and then just making more of those videos. Because there’s some videos where people are staying on for less than a minute through an average of 10,000 views. I’m like, “Okay, that obviously didn’t work so let’s throw that away. It was a good test, that was some good feedback, I won’t do that anymore so let’s move on and let’s find something better.” Steve: I just wanted to touch on something because this really matters a lot in kind of my world. I build funnels all day long, just tons of sales funnels and that’s kind of what I was looking through on your site mentorwithnick.com which is super cool, everyone should go there, mentorwithnick.com. You’ve got a quiz there and we’re a huge a fan of quizzes, it kind of pre-frame people. You got a welcome video from you and automated email that I got and then a link over to $1 offer. Kind of a cool biz opportunity there or business product I should say. Usually what we do when I build these types of funnels. You just kind of took me through in that mentorwithnick.com is we’ll always take those videos and enlist them and put them inside a funnel. I mean, I never let people just sit inside of YouTube format. I think it’s interesting that you just said … I mean it sounds like almost all of your review videos they’re all on YouTube anyway which makes sense. That’s what people are searching. That’s fascinating though. I guess I’m just recapping that. That’s cool though. Do you ever embed it all I guess, I mean you obviously did on that welcome video with Mentor With Nick. Nick: Yeah, that is one place that I do embed, I kind of almost forgot about that but those are like the only places. Mostly just like welcome videos or I like to call as bridge pages, like you said I do promote different things, different opportunities and stuff like that. What a lot of people will do is they’ll just send traffic directly to an offer and while that can work for sure like I’m not saying it can. Steve: It’s rough though. Nick: Yeah, pre-frame that a little bit and kind of just introduce them, kind of welcome them into your world. That’s a big thing it’s just like saying, “Hey, I’m here for you,” like, “I got your back,” like, “Don’t worry,” like, “We got this taken care of and you know I’m going to introduce you to this thing and you can certainly take us up on that but if not, you know, just connect with us.” So many people just want to connect with somebody, that’s what my whole video is about and after they opt in it’s just kind of saying, “Hey, I’m here,” like, “If you need anything from me you’ll be receiving some emails from me and you know I’m here to help you out.” I think that’s just a lot better way to do things instead of just like hard driving traffic to offers... My honest opinion that’s going to drop convergence but it’s also going to drop your audience where they just think that you’re just trying to sell them all the time. Steve: Yeah, 100% I agree with that and I was impressed with that video that you put out there, I thought that was really good. I always draw out funnels like crazy and in my world we call it funnel hacking. I was going through your funnel and drawing all that out, the emails that came, things like that and it’s not like you need that welcome video, the one from you. Technically you don’t but I thought it was interesting and cool that you put it in there because I watched the whole thing and it made sense to me is like, “Hey, there’s a lot of trust and there was a lot of ...” What’s the word? I can’t think the word. After watching the video I was like, “Hey, this guy is real. That was cool. What a good video,” and it set me up because I have to tell you when the next video started I was like, “Eh.” I don’t know but because I watched you, I was like there was a lot more trust, like a lot more stock in that video. Anyways, great example right there, I thought that was fantastic... Nick: Thank you. I appreciate that. Steve: Yeah, everyone go checkout mentorwithnick.com, that’s an interesting process for a bridge page right there. That’s really good. Nick: Thank you. Steve: Do you send people to quizzes a lot also? Nick: I use that capture page right now because it seems to be converting the best. I’ve noticed that in the past like I even got opt in pages like that up to like 50% opt in rate for all my traffic which is really good. Right now I’m sitting at around like 39%. I mean that’s for the best that I’ve done. I’ve tested with a lot of different stuff and everything else have been kind of sitting around like 32 to 33 maybe like a little bit higher than that. I just use that because it just kind of like gets them invested... They have the two step opt in and you are obviously very familiar with all this stuff and that works really well where you have to click on something that makes it a little bit more congruent. They’ve already invested a little something to make sure they put their email address in but the survey just kind of adds a little bit more like they’re taking a quiz and then they’re like, “Okay.” Now, they need to put their email address in and they’re already a little bit more invested so they’re more likely to continue with that action, that whole congruency. Steve: 100% plus then you can follow up with them, you got their email address and you can re-market to them and ask them if they got the trial. Yeah, great for you, great for them. Yeah, I completely agree with that too. I had this quiz who’s probably about 50% also, same thing. It’s just quizzes are great things for people. It was only like four questions but it set them into my … It was the same thing that you did which is what I was laughing at, “Where did you hear about us from?” and it was like, “Facebook, Oprah, Obama mentioned me,” and then other. I’ve never been on those things before but because they heard those names first and then your name last or even other, it’s a lot more stock also. Just increases your authority like crazy, not that you want to be deceptive but it does give you more authority. The next question was like, “What age range are you in?” and these are questions that sometimes don’t even matter or you can ask questions that just kind of poke them in the eye a little bit. “How much do you make on your side business every week?” “Zero. A hundred bucks,” and then just, “I got to choose the lowest one.” For a weight loss product, “How many products have you tried?” but at the time your solution comes up they’re like, “Man, he’s right. I fail every time at this. I do need to buy this product.” That’s interesting though. Cool. Hey man, I don’t want to just keep taking your time. I appreciate you getting up early to do this with me. Where can people learn more about you and join your world like you were saying? Nick: You can add me on Facebook, that’s a good place. I am kind of maxing that out now. Lately I’ve been going pretty hard with getting people add me and everything like that. My friend list is kind of maxing out right now so I did also start up a new Instagram account, a new Snapchat account which my usernames are Mentor With Nick, just kind of goes along with my website. You can also go to my website like you mentioned before which is mentorwithnick.com. Steve: Mentor With Nick Instagram and Snapchat, mentorwithnick.com also and then also on Facebook. Hey Nick, I appreciate it man. Thank you so much for taking the time again and for dropping all the nuggets you did. Nick: Yeah, for sure man. It was fun. I always love getting on with like-minded people and just chat marketing something I’m very passionate about. Steve: Yeah, I appreciate it. Everyone else usually who talks about it, sometimes they feel alone in this world. Anyways, it’s cool to meet you man and I do appreciate it. Nick: No problem, man. Happy to be on. Steve: All right, talk to you later. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answered on the show? Get your free t-shirt when your question gets answered on the live Hey Steve Show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question.

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"HeySteve!" Show 3 : Becky De Acetis Asks Why I ONLY Use Order Pages In Full Sites…

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2016 10:06

Click above to listen in iTunes... I don't just build funnels in ClickFunnels. Full out websites are not only possible, they're CRAZY fast... Here's some tricks fo' ya!! Steve Larsen: What's going on everybody? This is Steve Larsen and this is an "HeySteve!" segment of the Sales Funnel Radio Podcast. Announcer: Welcome to Sales Funnel Radio, where you'll learn marketing strategies to grow your online business using today's best internet sales Funnels. And now, here's your host, Steve Larsen. Steve Larsen: Alrighty Alrighty, Hey! So today's question actually comes from Becky, and actually I have interviewed Becky before in the past, so if you want to, go back and listen to her interview. It's absolutely, totally amazing. Absolutely amazing interview. But anyways, I'm going to play her question. Becky: Hey Steve, I was wondering on your template for the website, why you made every page an order page? I think I know, but just wanted to be sure. Thanks so much! Steve Larsen: Okay so I actually get asked that question pretty frequently. Now if you guys haven't done this in the past at all, please do in the future. I made my entire website, salesfunnelbroker.com, available for everyone for free. I mean you can download literally the entire thing, straight into your ClickFunnels account. Now if you don't have ClickFunnels, that's totally fine, it'll just give you a two week free trial, so you can go in, literally switch out your pictures, content, copy. Honestly, and what I would do, and I'm telling you guys to do this and a lot of people I think would freak out at this, but ... Literally put up my website on one page or on the right side of your screen and then the version that you download from me on the left side, and then you can go through and just add or change whatever and just make sure you model after what I've done. It works, almost everyone it works quite well... I want you to know, I had somebody come out and they were on YouTube and they were calling me out saying, "How is it that," I can't remember what they said. They were like, "How come you didn't give this to me for free? Are you serious, you're not," They said something like that, I can't remember exactly what it was, but I was crazy fired up, like, "Are you kidding me? I gave so much stuff away for you guys. I just finished building another person's Funnel, and I charge ten grand for them, and I'm giving you the entire website for free. That's like giving ten grand away." I got to be honest, I still get a little gut check every time I do that because I worked two or three hundred hours on that thing. I worked a long time on that, but I just wanted you guys to know that I do care about you and I'm obsessed with Funnel building. So anyways, back to the question... Becky asked, "Why is every single page," when you guys download it you'll see it, "Why is every page set up as an order page?" If you don't know what Becky is talking about, when you're inside of ClickFunnels, before you get in the editor but you're in the actual Funnel, you'll notice on this left side that it all says "Order Page." So the first page will be a home page but underneath it says "Order Page," right? Then there's an about page. Underneath it says "Order Page," and I've had people ask me, "Why do you do that?" So think about it this way. ClickFunnels is absolutely fantastic, not just for building things like Funnels of course, right? I use them to build websites, full websites, and I've done it for many people. You can check out echoh2water.com, that's a full one I built out. I guess I won't list them all out here, but I've built a ton of different websites inside of ClickFunnels and the way that I do it is first, right off the bat, I make every page an order page. Here's the reason... A lot of times what happens is I say I'm building a site, I'll say I'm building a full website inside of ClickFunnels and in the future, I'm like, "You know what? I would love it if I just sold something straight off of this page." Let's say I'm in the about page section of my website. If you went to salesfunnelbroker.com/about, you'd see me and you'd see about me and I'm telling you guys who I am and what kind of person I am and trying to get a relationship with you guys, right? Let's say I wanted to sell something off of that page right there. You actually can do it straight off that page because it's an order page. There's been many times in the past where I have, someone's come and I only made this mistake one or two times and realized I should build out every single page as an order page. This is off of a website, understand what I'm telling you... This is not a traditional Funnel that I built out.... The reason I do it is because there's been many times in the past where I built for somebody and I go out and I'm like, "Cool, hey, the project's done," and then they're like, "Hey, can I sell something just straight off of this page?" And I'm like, "That was different than you and I agreed on. Sure. But I'm going to have to rebuild that as an order page type or there's some really ninja code things you can do to switch it," and I was like, "Oh I don't want to anyway." So I just rebuild it real quick with one on one page, one on the other. But anyways, that's the reason why I do it though. So that to future assume any kind of purchase that might happen on that page in the future. Now that's kind of a quick answer to your question, so I wanted to go through a little bit more about how I build a whole site inside of ClickFunnels, because I have been asked that so many times. So, that's why I was like, okay this is totally going on the show. Becky I'll send you your T-shirt right after this... Here's how I do it though. Like I was saying I build out, first I select, I delete everything out of the Funnel. I start out a Funnel, it doesn't matter what kind and click Funnels. I delete every single page. Then I just create an order page one and choose any template. When I open it up though, I delete everything. Then I'll go out and I Funnel hack, essentially. Who are the other guru's out there? Who are the other people out there who are crushing it who I might want to model after? And I'll get four or five different websites that I like the look and feel of them. I don't want it to be too corporate-y... So then I go out and I build the whole thing and here's the key part. Make sure that all of headers with all the links are in there. Make sure all of the footers with all the links are in there. Make sure you get that page, as far as a template goes as 100% complete as you possibly can. Because then what I do afterwards is I'll go in and I'll just save it as a template. I save that whole page as a template and then I just literally paste it out like five or six times and name one of them the about page. Name the next one the services page, name the next one the podcasting page. Just like you guy see on the top of salesfunnelbroker.com. What's cool about that though, is the front page becomes, and any of the other pages become the entry point for other Funnels that I'm building out. So here, go check this out, for example this is how I do it. If you want me to build the Funnel for you, I did not think about all the people that wanted that when I built salesfunnelbroker.com, I was just planning on being a broker, which I do that also, by the way. But I was thinking, "Man, people want me to build their funnels for them, this is awesome, I'm really excited to do this!" If you look, the salesfunnelbroker.com site is not in the same category in ClickFunnels as the services, /services Funnel is. It's a different Funnel. But anyway, I don't want to keep rambling on. It's now turned into a long answer, but that's the reason why so that I can assume that they'll be future sales, which is awesome, which is what I've done. That free Funnel section, guys that's making like a grand a week and I'm not doing anything on it. You guys can go do the same... I want you to know though, you can download the entire site that I built for free, like I said, right in your ClickFunnels account. If you don't have one, just get the free trial, it will go right in still. But what I also did, if you go to the free Funnels section in there, scroll down to the bottom, I created a custom WordPress theme, so that I could still put up blog posts, and there's a whole other episodes that I've got on how to do that. I've made the whole thing available for you guys though. It cost me a good chunk of money to create, a lot of time, a lot of time with another coder that I ended up hiring and she's awesome. Well we ended up packaging up the entire blog theme and we made it available to all you guys. And so if you look, if you click across the top, salesfunnelbroker.com the blog at the top, there's a whole bunch of different places. Well the blog is not on the same URL, it's actually WordPress. All I did is I went and I paid someone to custom create a WordPress theme that made WordPress look like the site salesfunnelbroker.com. So they looked like they were together on purpose. That's what that is. So if you want to, you can also get that as a companion to the entire salesfunnelbroker.com website. Anyways guys, I'm sorry, this is kind of more of a nitty gritty, that was like hard core style more of an episode and I promise I won't do these too often and these "HeySteve!" segments is a little bit more forward, not as many stories I should say. Anyway, guys, thanks so much and Becky thanks so much. I will get your address from you and then I'll send you off that T-shirt. Anyone else who has a question though, please go to salesfunnelradio.com and you can see, if you scroll down on the right, there's a little green button you can click it and ask any question you want. It will forward off to my email. I kind of vet the questions to see which ones will be great on the podcast and then I send you out a free "HeySteve!" T-shirt kind of as a thank you. Anyways guys, hey thank you so much, and I will chat with you all later. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Have a question you want answered on the show? Get your free T-shirt when your question gets answered on the live HeySteve! Show. Visit salesfunnelbroker.com now to submit your question.

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"HeySteve!" Show 4: Keith Asks I Log My Hours While Building Funnels